Isaiah 53 Teaches that Jesus is NOT the Messiah
Christian missionaries point to the passage Isaiah 52:13 thru 53:12 as the “ultimate proof” for their belief in Jesus. A missionary once admitted to me that when his beliefs are challenged by counter-missionaries, he goes back and reads Isaiah 53 in order to be strengthened in his Christian faith.
This same missionary also admitted to me that the fact that Jesus is the most respected Jew in world history also encourages him in his faith. I understand that this particular missionary does not stand alone. Many Christians draw confidence in Jesus from the passage in Isaiah 53 and from the far-reaching reputation that Jesus enjoys.
I find this amazing. These two concepts cancel each other out. The fact that Jesus is so widely respected categorically disqualifies him from claiming the title of the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. There is no individual in the history of mankind that is more clearly disqualified from claiming this Scriptural title than is the Christian Jesus.
The suffering servant of the Lord is despised until his ultimate exaltation. The entire thrust of the passage in Isaiah is that the despised servant of the Lord will shock the world when the arm of the Lord is openly revealed upon him.
At this point in time, the arm of the Lord is not openly revealed upon anyone. Both Jews and Christians look forward to a day when the arm of the Lord is openly revealed upon God’s true servant and all the ends of the earth will clearly know the truth.
But Isaiah teaches us that when the arm of the Lord is ultimately revealed, the world will react with shock and consternation (Isaiah 53:1). This tells us that someone who is widely respected BEFORE the arm of the Lord is revealed – CANNOT be the servant that Isaiah was talking about. The fact that Jesus is the most widely respected person on earth – at this pointing time – BEFORE the arm of the Lord is revealed – is the clearest indication that this man’s claim for the title: “suffering servant” – is completely unjustified.
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1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
I love the Jewish people and I pray the peace of Jerusalem I pray for their spiritual eyes to be opened because that is a real straw man argument. True Christians Jesus said, will be hated and persecuted as he was. There are a very great many who profess it , but do not truly follow Yeshua. Mathew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. I pray that you would do a study on “The Arm of the LORD” throughout Isaiah and the rest of the Bible and then study the history of Yeshua and the prophecies that he fulfilled. His own people are still rejecting him. Yeshua said in John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Manyjews who rejected him will recieve the counterfiet antichrist. Please pray that God would show you who Yeshua is.
Quote: “True Christians, Jesus said, will be hated and persecuted as he was.” So, you think, Jesus was a Christian teaching 12 Christians? Why then was Jesus circumsized on the eighth day, why was Jesus born on Pessach by a Jewish mom and conceived by a Jewish dad? Why was he accustomed to attend a Synagoge on Shabbat rather then to attend a Christian church on Sunday? As a matter of fact the Roman emperiors then already had some kind of churches but Jesus never ever would have thought of attending them – why?
Yeshua never ever gave instructions to Christians, but to Jews only! He was a Jew, was born as a Jew, was educated und ministered as a Jew and he after all died for the Jewish people – but never for Christians! Unlike Jesus, Yeshua was a Pharisee himself.
Please remember that Christians were not persecuted but they persecuted the Jews. Crusades, inquisitions, stakes, even the holocaust by Christian Adolf Hitler tell me that your idea of persecuted Christans cannot be an idea of a Christian “Jesus” but that the Jewish Rabbi Yeshua had warned his talmidim of Christian action on them.
You then mention the antichrist. Have you never thought that your “Jesus” could be the antichrist rather than the true Mashiach? Yeshua BenYosef had tought HaShem while the Church is teaching a “christian Christ” who is a semi-God himself.
Very well written, just to add on to this: What did “Jesus” fulfill? Did he fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies? NO. NO. NO. Did Jesus build the Third Temple? NO. Did Jesus gather in all the Jews from around the world? NO. Did Jesus usher in world peace? NO, in fact there has been more strife and blood shed in the name of Jesus since his time. Did he spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel? NO. I can keep going on this subject but I think you will get the drift. These are just a few items that Jesus did not fulfill thus he can not and was not the messiah. CASE CLOSED.
Well done, Adrian! I’d suggest you to take a sheet of paper and make two columns. In the head line of the left column you write “Babylon” and over the right column you write “Jerusalem”. You then take the expression “Mashiach” e. g. and put it in the correct column and “Christ” on the other hand. Jesus/Yeshua, Sha’ul and St. Paul, Miriam and Mary, YHVH and lord, ELOHIM and god etc.
Jesus never ever was Mashiach – I fully agree. A Mashiach is a man who got anointed according to the Torah. No Christ and no Christian ever got anointed according to the Torah – so, there is a vast difference between Mashiach and Christ. And just to explain the syncretism between both I give you an example:
> Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
And two minutes before his ascension “Jesus” got so megalomaniac that he commanded his disciples to convert all nations:
> Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations….
But when you sort out the statements according to the Babylon/Jerusalem pattern you will discover who said what. If the Jewish Rabbi Yeshua, today, could read what has been written about Jesus during the last 2000 years – for sure he would scratch his head! But before doing so he would do something else: he would take off his Kippa! To Christians this thought is unthinkable.
Was Yeshua anointed? In the so-called New Testament we do not find a report about this. If Yeshua’s genealogy in Matthew Ch. 1 has not been altered by later Christians we could assume that Yeshua was a son of King David. In the “NT”-reports, from his birth to his death we can find hints that tell us that he might have been the “king of the Jews”, thus Yeshua, the Jew, might have been the successor to King David’s throne. On the other hand we consider the Roman Catholic Jesus Christ and we must admit that he is a carven image in a manger or on a crucifix. To me, the whole syncretism about Jesus/Yeshua makes sense now.
After “The LORD Zaphnathpaaneah” had revealed himself to his brothers in BeReshit Ch. 45, in Egypt we find two different kinds of people: one party still believed in their LORD Zaphnathpaaneah and the other one believed in their brother Yoseph. Either belief later was rewarded – one party obtained land and the others became slaves.
Firstly Messiah has come only once already AND will return therefore Isaiah has not finished his prophecy to you or to me concerning him.
Mashiak said
Mat5:17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.
Heaven and earth have not yet passed neither has all been fulfilled in the prophets including Isaiah.
I beg to differ with you 100% when you say that Mashiak has been respected. How can we even say that he has been respected? In what way has he been respected? He has been despised and his Father blasphemed.
Most of us honest, truly Torah observant men, would clearly see that the true Mashiak in scripture has indeed been despised by the world in main-stream religion rather than respected.
Every one that has persecuted and despised the truly obedient talmidim (disciple) has also despised and persecuted Mashiak. How many were killed for keeping sabbath alone?
Mashiak our only Rabbi from the Father as he declared himself is despised every day when twcontinue to call o main religions rather choose to call men Rabbi or Father
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Rabbi, even Mashiak; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
So the world despises the Word (Torah) that he taught of his Father and therefore they despise him.
This has been done through the formation of Christianity-Roman Catholicism which incorporates the Universal religions to Baal as well. It has changed Mashiak’s name to that of a Graeco-Roman god (Jesus J-Zeus), given him a Greek god celebration (25 December of Saturnalia, Mithra etc) and then taught that he came to abolish Torah instead of making it honourable, and they make Mashiak to be Creator Elohim himself instead of the begotten Son, when he clearly never taught such a blasphemy against his Father.
Mashiak himself declares that by the time he returns-will he find faith? In other words he is increasingly despised as time goes.
Lk 18:7 And shall not Elohim avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? (THE UNJUST WHO DESPISE HIM)
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith (aman) on the earth?
It is indeed going to be a shock to a faithless world especially the false religions who have no “aman” but rather vain philosophy and that have twisted Torah, added to it and and made it void. When Mashiak returns the arm of Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh is revealed upon his Son.
The first time Mashiak came as the suffering servant the second time he comes as the appointed Judge. His own people did not heed his first coming as a humble fellow servant-King when it was declared he would come in such a fashion by Zechariah and most therefore missed his identity.
Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Mashiak has already been established as SPIRITUAL king of his Father’s kingdom which he declared is not quantified or located, but is at hand for it is SPIRITUALLY IN us who have the spirit (Ruach ha kodesh) of the Father, so:
Mashiak’s first coming as a lowly servant but spiritual king while on earth BUT then the second coming as a True Righteous Judge indeed a shock to the world:
Revelations: 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Yahusha: worship God(Ehyeh asher Ehyeh): for the testimony of Yahusha is the spirit of prophecy. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
The heavenly Father will be all in all when his Son Mashiak has overcome death ie the righteous are resurrected to eternal life and the wicked are resurrected to be destroyed.
It is when Mashiak hands the Spiritual Kingdom, which he is administering now in us, back to his Father that Ehyeh asher Ehyeh will indeed be what He will be when his Son is again subject to Him.
1 Cor 15:23
But every man in his own order: Mashiak the firstfruits; afterward they that are Mashiak’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to Elohim, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God (Ehyeh asher Ehyeh) may be all in all.
Correct!! Mashiak said Jn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what(WHO) we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
it is not of the stranger (gentile) ie Constantine or greek philosophy or Roman pope etc etc it is by a Torah obedient Mashiak the one and only Jewish Rabbi Mashiak Yahusha/Yeshua/ Yahushua( name still being determined but NOT J-Zeus)
Second witness that NO gentile Doctrine shall be followed by true disciples of the good shepherd and Jewish Mashiak.
John 10:5
5 And a stranger [GENTILE-NON JEW, NON TORAH KEEPER] will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
KR,
How strange then how many gentiles recognized your mashiak when the Jews could not. Consider the astrologers of the east and Pilate. These are the sorts of people who testified to your mashiak. Those who followed him were not the Torah observant but drunkards and harlots. Perhaps you missed something.
Jim
You simply missed the point my friend the SOURCE not the recipient is being emphasised here.
The knowledge of who the Messiah was was FROM the Jewish scriptures given to them and chosen by Elohim to be the SOURCE of their knowing him. That is the voice, the oracle.
Paul:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of Elohim.
It was to a gentile, a Samaritan that Mashiak spoke this very saying “salvation is OF the Jews” to emphasise the source (OF) is Jewish and NOT to be corrupted by gentiles. Irony is that we have SIMON MAGUS A SAMARITAN who then corrupted Torah and is the source of Roman Catholicism’s further corrupted spirit.
The gentile astronomers knew of the Messiah only by the voice of the Hebrew scriptures else they would not be peeering at the sky at the time appointed -so I have not missed anything since I as a gentile have heard the oracles of Elohim as you have through all the chosen Jews Paul, Matthew, all the disciples apostles who taught me Torah.
If a gentile drunlard were to follow a STRANGER with his STRANGE doctrine rather than the Jewish Mashiak then he would be twice a drunkard.
It is a contradiction for you to say they followed while at the same time saying they were not Torah observant-you have missed something.
“Follow me” means walk as I walked and if your Mashiak walks as a drunk, harlot gentile then you are following another Mashiak, an antiMashiak.
Many are called but few are chosen, many follow but few remain.
Many followed only for mammon (bread) but soon departed not seeking the bread of life.
Paul
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Mashiak.
Paul kept Torah as Mashiak did and l Paul literally HEARD Mashiak on the road to Tarsus in the HEBREW tongue.
Rom 8:1
4 That the righteousness of the law(TORAH) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It is understandable that non-Jews come to such a foreign understanding of anything Jewish, since they simply cannot relate to the teachings of Chazal. It is also understandable that Jews without knowledge can also be misled. It is why the educated and knowledgeable person will see these assertions as being utter nonsense. The first indication is the use of what you call “mashiak”. It goes downhill from there.
That which makes void Torah shall go down to gehenna. Mashiak passes the Deuteronomy 13 test whilst Talmud does not.
You’ve only reinforced my point. Clearly you have no knowledge of what Talmud is and how it relates to Judaism. Your entire comment is a non-sequitur.
I will say this about Devarim you cited. Verse 14 certainly would apply to Xtianity AND especially Jsus.
Yes I was reinforcingy our point about Torah being the test. Talmud at first pretends/perhaps at first intended to put a fence around the Torah to guard it but ends up adding and removing from it. Xianity does the same pretending to obey a G-o-d but following a false Messiah that abolishes Ya’s law when the true Messiah does not. Both Talmud and Xianity fall and Torah stands. For example One should hear Paul a Pharisee, taught of Gamaliel but an apostle of Y’shua and follower of Torah. He clearly exposes Talmud and false traditions in his ordinances of the assembly about men wearing head coverings -there is no such thing as a kippah in Torah and it is a shame for a man to cover his head. Who else covers their head? the Pope, Islam etc etc this means you are under the authority of something else (Hermes -the eye in the sky, the dome) , another pagan occult thing. There is no such thing as oral law for all the law has been written in Torah.
Christians did not persecute the Jews. To be a Christian means to follow Christ; it means to be like Christ. Regardless of what you believe about Jesus, you cannot say he hated the Jews. He loved the Jews, and considered them the people to whom he was first called to minister to (Matt. 10:6). A man may call himself a Christian, but not be one, just as a man may call himself a Jew and not be one. Because of the actions of a self-proclaimed Jew like Jacob Orgen, should the religion of Judaism be discredited? Many people claim that the New Testament or at least some of the books in the New Testament are anti-semitic. A little bit of thinking and such a position can be quickly seen as preposterous. Really, think of it. Can you name one major character/hero in the New Testament who was not a jew? I can’t even think of one (except, possibly, Luke the physician). Paul, Peter, Jesus, Mary, Thomas, and every other apostle was a Jew. Does this sound anti-semitic to you?
Why do you think the Nazi’s had to rewrite the Bible? Why do you think the typical Christian scriptures were outlawed in Nazi Germany? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-399470/Jewish-references-erased-newly-Nazi-Bible.html)(http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/mwh/germany/controlstructurerev_print.shtml)
Men have abused the scriptures, Old and New, to help their cause. But that does not make them wrong in and of themselves.
Michael
Please consider – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/the-guilt-of-books/
The infamous ” no true Scotsman” fallacy rears its ugly head one again.
Following.
Michael,
Here’s a challenge.
Find one Christian writer besides for Peter Abelard between the years 100 and 1700 who said that anyone who hates or persecutes Jews is not a Christian, that Christians must love Jews, that the Golden Rule applies as much to Jews as to all humans, that Jews are the beloved children of God and must be treated as such–some kind of statement expressing one or a combination of these sentiments.
Admonitions not to harass and kill Jews do not count.
I would also like to ask you if the following historical figures are Christian:
John Chrysostom
Origen
Justin Martyr
Martin Luther
Thank you.
Exactly right, Dina.
I have put the same question to people myself and the response is usually something like, “Well, things were different in those days, and yes, those men had their struggles but they were real Christians and God used them in mighty ways in spite of their faults.”
I suppose the same could be said for Hitler too, eh?
Unbelievable.
It’s not surprising… anti-Semitism is clearly in the New Testament. Only those who blindly believe it deny that fact!
Bobby
I think that it would be a fantastic thing to study the Bible with a focus on “The Arm of the Lord” – because you will surely learn that Jesus is NOT the Messiah – here are two examples – Isaiah 52:10 – Where the Lord bares His holy arm – and all the ends of the earth SEE God’s salvation – read it in context – it is talking about the ingathering of Israel’s exile – THAT is when God’s salvation is open for everyone to see. Another example: Isaiah 51:9 speaking of the arm of the Lord as the agent through which God wrought the miracles of the exodus – in context – beseeching God for similar miracles – now – in getting Israel out of her exile – you realize how this has nothing to do with Christian theology.
But Bobby – why not study the entirety of the Bible? Let the Bible tell you what to focus on. Try reading the Jewish Scriptures without any preconceived notions (I know it is impossible for any of us to do this – but give it your best shot) – ask yourself – what does the Author of this work want me to consider important? Where does He want me to put my focus?
Good luck
Im came into as a believer primarily believing in God alone, yet when I really consider the poetic tone of Elijah and his many artistically prophetic Rants, it is clear that first he describes The first phase of Jesus life’ when compared, that in actuality Jesus The Nazarene was rather unpopular before his death, which is pretty evident during the trial as they release a Rebellious Vagabond like Barabus instead by choose to have Jesus killed by popular consent. Looking at the history of the Jews is like a long conditioning by God on how to live his “will”, its a huge lesson. Especially Moses and the Exodus and the many punishments that were afflicted upon yall during the course of the journey. The struggle between the Hebrew and God is one of strong and painful lessons in doing what is right and abandoning self pride , The Laws established by The LORD that were harsh in the Old Testament (stoning etc.) were made to Classical Condition The Hebrews in order to root out the internal savagery carried on by many of the Gentile peoples around the Globe and instill Love for Your God in your hearts.
Yet, all prophecies of the Torah Ceased years before A.D., no more books were written for you and nothing else was said from The Lord. The chronology of the Crucifixion to the Destruction of the Temple is exactly the Yahweh from the Torah, His dissolved the nation and threw you about the world and left to your own. The Hebrews learned what a Savage world it was without God. Punished with Hardship and Rejection.
This in a theological sense is Evident in being the last lesson in my opinion The Lord’s Patience had with the Nation. After the misery and loss of the Holocaust his heart and compassion tossed you back into your land. Oddly the only friends Jews have in the world are True Christians, the rest of them are savages, heathens. The land of Edom and The Ismaelites will form a conspiracy against you, they will consume you if that have a chance. Who do you think will help you in the world when all those countries surround your Nation?
Think about it
Dear Sanhedrin;
You said; >>> “Oddly the only friends Jews have in the world are True Christians, the rest of them are savages, heathens. The land of Edom and The Ismaelites will form a conspiracy against you, they will consume you if that have a chance. Who do you think will help you in the world when all those countries surround your Nation?”<<<
Half right, and shows lake of knowledge of our history.
The Romans threw us arond the world after the Bar Khochba revolt. The only ones who made a mad dash to abuse us were either Christians (mainly your leadership) and Muslims.
In India, not only we haad and still have a good relatioinship with the people, we even had a small kingdom on the area. Today, many who have Jewish ancistery are returning to Judaism, and to Israel.
Also, in New Dali and Jerusalem, our two peoples signed agreements of cooperation. Also, their increased acceptance of Monotheism is mainly attributed to us. Hummm?
Buddest, Confusians and Shentos have shown us respect, and not noticiable prosecusion. The first alphabet of Japan is anceint Hebrew, with most of the names of the letters still intact, and many Hebrew words are and have been part of their language for centuries.
While we received respect from the world, your ancestors have done their best to rid the world of us. Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox have worked hard to convert us, chased us all over the place, or just kill us. Now, since you all have failed to not only rid your world of us, but also we are returning to our Land, after the Holocaust, yet, your attitude is-if we cannot beat G-d at His game, we join Him.
But, first, one more try to eliminate us? The false Hebrew Christian movements lying aboutthemselves, to lure ignorant Jews to you. As you do this, consider this fact; over a million Christians, including clergy, have converted to Judaism over the past century, while yourefforts have gain you maby 50,000 of us. The first by their decision, withour Jewish missionaries, the latter with Christian missionaries, many out-right lying about our text and purpose.
Your finger pointing tells us that the god you worship does not know all, including the future. The true G-d does, and He established us as His chosen people knowing how we shall behave.
After 35 centuries, I think His way has proven supream over all others.
Thank you for this opportunity to share some pertinate facts. Have a good day.
Shalom;
Yechiel
Hey Sanehdrin Dude
One punishment God didn’t put on us is that we become the perpetrators and the inspiration for the Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust etc. – we must have done something right to avoid THAT punishment.
Hey yourphariseefriend, I find it amazing how you and your fellow “faithful Jews” ignore the fact that the doctrines of the Catholic Church; especially their “plan of salvation”, their concept of “communion”, their doctrines to pray to the dead (veneration of Mary and “The saints”), and that a person must suffer personally for their sins; just to name a few of the multitudinous doctrines that are in stark contradiction to Scripture (Both the Hebrew {what we call the Old Testament} and the New Testament, and then call them “Christian”. The word Christian was first used in Antioch as a slur. It meant “little Christ’s”, and was used of those who DID follow the teachings of Yeshua which would not apply to the Catholic heresy. Also, the Holocaust was the result of the teachings of evolution which led to the eugenics movements in Europe and America throughout the 1930’s, and was perpetrated by an occultist who believed in the power of objects, and had an official astrologer help him plan campaigns, which you would know if you studied real history instead of propaganda. I would strongly suggest that both you and your fellow “faithful Jews” stop their biased propagandizing and hate speech against the very people who care the most about you. Study your history of WWII and you will find that real Christians were hiding Jews, and helping them escape, and many paid for that love with their lives, and many by being put in the concentration camps with the Jews they were trying to hide and to save, while the Catholic heresy made a separate peace treaty with Hitler and Mussolini called “The Concordat” to protect their ill gotten fortune in Rome. I and many other real Christians would appreciate your learning the truth and stop lumping us in with those both you and we would call heretics.
John
Many Catholics saved Jews as well – happens to be many atheists and humanists did too. saving Jews during the holocaust was not the exclusive domain of Protestants – at the same time there were many Protestants who participated in the perpetration of the holocaust – It is you who needs to study some history – a good place to start would be Luther’s “On the Jews and their Lies”
Did you avoid the Punishment? It seems to me that if you believe in The LORD you would see He certainly played no hand in prevention, that is until the West came to Liberate you. At the cost of Many Lives, good honest men too. The Americans found you, clothed you, and in a rather smooth and sudden action, pulled heavy weight for your own land politically.
Its silly that you would believe that it was a Christian Idea? My friend, have you read Mein Kampf ? Hilter tells you what hes going to do to Jews in particular and why. You can reply with a quote where Hitler connects Jewish liquidation in his workings with Christian Ideology. Please, by all means.
Holocaust – born form the Ideology of the National Socialist party, whom the prominent Anti Semitics where adherent to the Belief of the Society of Thule, an occultist belief in Aryan Supremacy, also Hitler was raised Catholic but did not continue that belief;
Oppression of Christians, Jews etc. was a fault of the corrupt Roman Catholic Church, which under force of death, torture, and other terrible acts was Removed by a Christian Revolution headed by Martin Luther. Oddly, as soon as the populace had a copy of the Bible in their own language, the real truth was given out and alot of the falsehoods were obviously wrote out.
Isnt it time we all move beyond all of our mistakes form the past?
Perhaps
Sanhedrin Dude
Read “A Moral Reckoning” and “Constantine’s Sword” for the quotes you are looking for – Alonso de Espina’s “Fortress of Faith” will also be of help
Okay, so considering your a researcher, you would quote from a book of hearsay vs from the Prime source? Why is that this day and age, where one would rather take a 2nd hand source vs 1st hand source. You aim your Bow by Choice Blind Folded in this case for a one chance Mark.
Conspiracies abound? Or is Evil just Evil? Or is the delusion of Evil, meant to weave itself beyond regonition, so that it may continue to be Evil?
Crusades? Inquisition? Im sorry, once again, that would be the now defunct Catholic Church, you know Martin Luther and Reformation is worth reading about.
Heres an Idea, Read the Quran where it refers to Jews as Sons of Apes, oh and…
“Suffering by Fire is Jews’ destiny in this world and next.”
“… you will taste the punishment of Scorching Fire.” [Quran 3:181]
Or Classic Lines Like
“Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet [Muhammad] said: ‘The time (of Resurrection) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!’”
[Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985]
I do believe Jews have to Convert, In my belief the Second Coming is the Jewish Awaited Messiah
If your intent on blaming Christians for your Wo’s, be my guest, in a world of Holocaust Denial and rampant growing Anti-Semetism, Atheist, Radical Islam, you should look closer.
Peace Out
Committing intellectual & spiritual suicide is your answer? There is more anti-Jewish statements in the NT than in the Quran. And Muslim’s believe in Jesus as well. Better an enemy that faces you, than one that will stab you in the back?
Are you sure the “new” testament is not anti-semitic?
https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com/2016/02/24/is-the-new-testament-anti-semitic/
Oh my, I’m so honored :). Let me know if anyone takes up the challenge.
I’m working on an article that I hope will show a balanced approach.
Do you mean to say that the accusation of deep-seated Jew hatred among Christians leading to horrendous persecution of the Jewish people for nearly two millennia is unbalanced?
What are you talking about CR? One of the two must be the true interpretation, balanced approach make very little sense. Nevertheless,… I will wait patiently for your article as I usually love your comments 🙂
https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/who-is-speaking-in-isaiah-53/
Sanehdrin Dude
You miss my point – Matthew’s Jesus PASSES JUDGMENT against a group of people for the actions of some of them – all I am saying is that according to the judgment of MATTHEW’S JESUS – not my judgment – any Christian claim to possession of the exclusive path to salvation is hypocritical
By the way if you want prime sources – try Martin Luther’s “On the Jews and their Lies”
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If you read Isaiah 53 in context, truthfully without blinders on, it is obvious that the servant is Israel. If the servant was Iesous (the real name of Jesus in the NT), then we should not worship Jesus in the least, since he was a servant of God and not God (unless God is a deceitful scammer who loves to appear as a pagan and in the form of idolatry?). One sent, not the sender. A messenger or a “mouth piece”, not the sender, not the message, not the “mind” of God. A son like Israel, not the Father. Such a small God one has, if one exalts a “messiah” over God.
That’s his name when translated and slightly tweaked in Latin. I believe his real name is Yehushua.
Blame it all on the RCC, but why was your god so silent for 1500-2000 years. And Protestants and “independents” have been around for 400-500+ years, with pretty much the same NT Bible as the RCC. Time to forget the past? How far back do we go? Start by reading about the errors of “Yeshua” believers by other “Yeshua” & “messianic” believers on messianicliterarycorner.com and several other sites (search on messianic error”). There is time for messianics to reform (since the world didn’t end on 21 May). Time to do Teshuvah. I think Jews are safer with God, then having to join with “Yeshuaite” humanists and other anti-Semites and believers in a Satan (who is about as strong, often stronger, as their god).
I do not understand it when you say that Jesus Christ was not the suffering servant when the Gospels make it plain that Jesus suffered as a man, and was not esteamed as He should be. He suffered and died on the cross in the room and place of sinners. He suffered the just punishments of sinners as He took on our guilt and God the Father poured on him His wrath to satify divine justice (the scape goat – Leviticus 16). Right on the same mount that Abraham offered up Isaac, Mount Moriah.
God humbled himself when he became flesh so as to suffer as a man and live as a perfect man without sin (a lamb without blemish) and so when the time when this lamb was slain, the blood was put on the lintel and side posts then the wrath of God will pass you by.
How can anyone honestly say that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the suffering servent when He suffered more than any man as ever suffered, or ever could.
I thank God that he was not left us to suffered in our sins and has given us salvation.
I can anyone honestly say that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the suffering servant. And you can too if you understand what the word servant means (not the serpent). And if you read who Isaiah continuosly says is the servant, instead of reading a few select verses and culling out those verses of God’s prophet that do not support your wishes or preconceived notions. What a small god one has, who became flesh (like the man Epiphanes) so as to suffer as a man (a god has to become a half-man in order to know what suffering is? And yet such an ignorant god can’t really feel physical pain, no more than an idea physically hurts our head). And if you believe Jesus was a perfect man without sin, you are much more forgiving & merciful than that angry, vengeful, wrathful god (almost like your satan) that you insultingly imagine God to be. Such a wrathful God has to scheme & plot his own murder (the God of Israel can not die or else death (human) is greater than God. And even “true” pagan gods didn’t die, except for those sun-gods who resurrected themselves after 3 days in the ground).
You might be a little more correct about Jesus (modeled after pagan myths and philosophies) if the Hebrew bible or Tanach, which Christians seem only faintly familiar with, had not already existed & stated such principles as (1) what a messiah, anointing, & servant is, (2) what the difference is between a true and a false prophet, (3) that God is just or fair and merciful and loving, (4) that ‘God is not a man’, (5) that no one need go up or ascend to heaven and bring us down a plan for living (we were already given that by God), (6) that human sacrifice is an abomination, (7) that people are created after the characteristics or “image” of God, (8) that people are the children of God and we can & are actually commanded to be Holy just as God is Holy (2500 years ago or today, not just in the “end times”), and (9) etc. Since God already told us these things, we don’t need the pagan plan offered by Jesus (which was nonsensical then & even more so, now that that plan is 2000 years old and decrepit and about to be replaced with a new plan, a new covenant- the one that the prophets of Israel all spoke of, a kingdom of God on earth.
I am sorry to read that you don’t understand. It is quite simple really, but I know it will be hard for you for a while, but it will grow on you if you are truly searching for the truth. In short, You have been deceived without you realizing it. To put it as simply as possiable to help you. Unbeknown to most Christians is that the Jewish Scriptures where stolen from the Jews and mis-translated, mis-used and mis-applied in many areas in order to justify the Christian Church stance and to re-enforce their own pagan beliefs. When the Jewish Rabbi’s objected to their mis-use, the Rabbi’s where murdered in order to hide the truth from the common people at large. This is still true to this day. Now listen to me here. the origins of the scriptures are Jewish. The Jews have been trying to let those know about the truth to those who are truly looking for the truth. Isaiah 52 and 53 is speaking about ISRAEL, not Jesus Christ. Why don’t you check out the history of the Christian Church in relation to the Jews. By and large, the Synoptic Gospels and most if not all of the so called New and Old Testaments are mis-representative of the original Scriptures. Do you really want to know the truth or are you playing games. If you dare, as I did, go and ask the Jews for the truth. If you are truly searching, God will lead some one to you or perhaps lead you to someone in your area.
Alasdair
Jesus suffered more than any man ever suffered? How do you know that? – I suggest that you read “Contra-Brown” – find the section on Isaiah 53 – I also suggest you read my post “The Blood of the Lamb”
If you consider the carven image called “Jesus Christ”, hanging on a crucifix, you must admit that Jesus is indeed suffering and that only the Jews are responsible for his death…. This is a Roman Catholic doctrine. But Moshe had commanded how to deal with carven images. The historical Jesus wouldn’t even bare the Greek/Roman name “Jesus” but the Aramaic name “Yeshua”. His father was a torah-dedicated Jew called “Josef” and his mother was a Jewess called Miriam who was not less torah-dedicated than her husband. The “Holy Virgin” was someone totally different and so was her son “Jesus”. While “Jesus Christ” was a Christian semi-God and a carven image, Yeshua was a Jewish Rabbi, walking around in his ministry wearing a Talit. About the Jew Yeshua we indeed know too little as this information has systematically been cancelled from old scriptures during the first centuries and replaced by Roman Catholic imaginations. Thus: let’s discern the spirits. Today, we find a Jew Yeshua and another “Jesus” likewise:
2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (KJV)
Shalom
Shomer
There is a whole lot of speculation going on nowadays. Jesus is English for Iesous, which can be translated back into English (depending on if it is OT or NT) as Joshua or Yehoshua. In Aramaic, the “ben” would be “bar”. Of course, Jesus & the NT would not be “Roman Catholic” since Jesus had not changed that much in the 4th century from that of the Jesus in the middle of the 2nd century. Unless you believe St Augustine. & then most of Jesus’s story & the NT was unknown until the different Christian factions started writing letters and gospels in the late 3rd & 4th centuries. Most of the modern version of “Yeshua” is based on the same NT that is used to delegitimize “Roman Catholic” Jesus.
Of course there are the Roman pseudo-Clementine stories, a little bit of “ebonite” and “nazarene
Quote: “….since Jesus had not changed that much in the 4th century from that of the Jesus in the middle of the 2nd century.” Sorry, but Jesus had never changed. Jesus was Jesus from the very beginning, when pagan divinities like Mithras, Thammuz, Bacchus or Helios were renamed “Jesus”, even before Yeshua ministered in Erets Israel. If you knew only a little about the origin of Jesus and the origin of Yeshua on the other hand, you could never pretend that the name was just translated. Too vast are the differences between both! Whether these differences were invented in the 4th century or earlier or later – it simply doesn’t matter.
As a German I have a Scandinavian first name. If someone would call me by the German, French or Italian equivalent of my name, I simply wouldn’t listen. It is not my name! Thus Yeshua is Yeshua and this name has a genuine Hebrew meaning: “YAH is salvation”. As long as salvation is in YHVH, in the name of “Jesus” there cannot be salvation likewise. The name Je-Sus in Latin is a composition of Hebrew “Yah” and Latin “Sus”. If you like to know what Latin “Sus” really means: Wikipedia helps!
Since I know this abomination about Jesus, I know there is no other Shem but HaShem! Names of pagan divinities are not to be heard from our mouths; thus I mention “Jesus” in the context of pagan divinities only. And Yeshua was a Jewish Rabbi like any other Jewish Rabbi in a Synagogue today. Jewish Religion Scientists helped me to sort out what in the so-called New Testament can refer to Yeshua and what must be pagan doctrine about Jesus. As I said before: There is no other name to be called upon but HaShem’s! So, why then should Isaiah 52/53 refer to a Christian semi-God? Where is the difference if any-one mixes Jesus and Yeshua and accepts this idea or whether you mix and abolish it? In the end of Luke Chapter two you can read about Yeshuas BarMitzvah and a few verses earlier you read about his circumcision and his parents’ sacrifices in the tempel – why do you want to abolish this idea about Yeshua? If I abolish anything, it then ist that the Jewish Navi JeshaJahu in chapter 52/53 had prophecied a pagan semi-God called Jesus.
It is well possible that one of the various Jesuses ran about in Jerusalem nude. But I read in the so-called New Testament, that the Yeshua I am talking about, at least wore a garment woven all-in-one and a Talit likewise.
BUT:
We also find contradictions between Jesus and Jesus. One statement is so Jewish that it only can refer to Yeshua and the other is so Catholic that it must refer to a Christian author:
>>Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.<> few <>Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach a l l n a t i o n s, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost<< (KJV)
How can the eleven teach all (pagan) nations? Pagans would never listen; thus you must convert them, even with the sword. In one case i read "few" and in the other case i read "all nations". This is only one case, where "Jesus" didn't know what he had said before.
Of course, there was the “Roman” pseudo-clementine novels, and a few Christian writings about “nazarenes” and the non-gnostic and also gnostic ebionites, but their beliefs were more gnostic & more “Christian” than the modern view of a messiah by “Yeshuaites”. Some of the later (5th century ) ebionites & Sabeans (Baptists of Babylon or likely remnants of the northern kingdom of Israel), favored John over Yeshua, although they also had a very, high regard for Miriam.
Of course, we have Josephus who wrote about several different characters named Yeshua or Jesus (depending on the translator). Primarily in Josephus’s “My Life”, we have competition between 2 messianic leaders from the Galilee; a Yeshua and a John (of Gischala). Josephus thinks both are ego-centric clowns or are insane. Josephus tells us of another foolish Yeshua who would run on the streets of Jerusalem every day, while completely naked, shouting “Repent for the end is near”. He may have been the messiah or a real prophet, because years later the end came to the temple. We are also told that king Agrippa believed he was a god manifested in the flesh and quite a few Jews loved him since he brought about a Judea cotrolled less by Rome.
Of course, there are several different versions of “Yeshua” brought to us by different credible and some not so credible (but popular) biblical scholars. Yeshua could be a Greek Cynic philosopher (Cynicism was popular in the Decapolis, stretching across the Galilee eastward across the Jordan, where Jesus taught as well). Or a stoic. Or a zealot rebel, like Judas the Galilean and later, his sons of “Thunder” or like the “bojarnes”. A lion. Or a lamb, a pacifist of the pacifists and sympathetic to the Romans. Or a strict literalist Saduccee who hated Pharisees, except when he was preaching like he was a Pharisee. Or he was sympathetic to the Herodians. Or he was an Essene (Jessean or Naasene). Or he was a Samaritan, like the messiah named Simon Magus. Or whatever version you prefer.
Shomer: Truth is, I know a whole lot about pagan theologies and about where Jesus came from and it appears that I know more than most about where Yeshua came from as well. Since some people like you agree with me that there is a whole lot of pagan ideas and teachings in the gospels and the NT, I suggested that one may want to search for a more historical Yeshua in Josephus (of course be skeptical of the very few references of a very Christian Yeshua, Yochanan, and Yaakov that were “discovered” in his writings in the 4th century). There are a few that are barely noteworthy and a couple that are described as fools or as mentally disturbed. Since you may not find your Yeshua there, you may want to search for your Joshua or Yeshua among those mentioned in the Mishnah or the Perkei Avot, since you believe he was a Pharisee rabbi in the 1st century c.e. and something should be written about him either good or bad. Since you can’t trust the NT which you believe to be grossly contaminated, don’t look for an exact match. There are several Joshua’s or Jesus/Yeshuas there, but there are other Simons, Eliezers, Johns, etc who are just as noteworthy, or more so.
But the Yeshua you are looking for seems to be a man-god, which you can only find in the NT gospels. That is where you or your pastor or “rabbi” found him. Changing his name from English Jesus to Yeshua, doesn’t change much about him. You are not “saved” by a name. It appears your small god can only understand Hebrewized or Aramaic-like names (based on your example where you would not recognize your name if spoken in some other foreign language.) Are you comparing your god to you or you to God? Yeshua may mean God or YWYH is salvation, but you are NOT saying the same thing if you say Yeshua is salvation (God is salvation is salvation). You can’t be saved by a man or by the name of a man, just because God’s name (El or Yah) appears somewhere in a person’s name, or else there are or were countless millions of Jewish gods and saviours, both men & women. Saying your Yeshua was circumcised, had a bar mitzvah, wore a “tallit”, was a “Pharisee rabbi”, etc. proves little or nothing whatsoever. Countless millions of Jews and countless rabbis did the same over the last 2000 years. Some Jews 2000-2500 years ago willingly or forceably offered sacrifices to Babylonian gods, to Zeus, or to Caesars. Israelites worshipped lords (ba’als). Just because they were Jews, does not mean we are in the same situation or should do the same. It is possible for Jews to choose to be pagans and practice paganism or idolatry. That does not mean we should worship a “rabbi”, just because there are a few words of Torah or Tanakh in the NT.
Without the NT, you would not know a Yeshua. He is not in the Tanakh, except where Jesus or Yeshua believers want to see him and they only do so with some great effort (by Christian “Midrash” or Greek allegorical methods). You get your Yeshua from the same NT that you say is contaminated with paganism. How & why did Yeshua or your god allow that to happen??? You think your “religion scientists” can cull out all of the bad from the good? That sounds cultish. I would trust the Jesus Seminar scholars or the methods of scholars who believe in a Q gospel, before some men or women, who are (from what I have seen) are self-taught or self-appointed “experts”. I know some of those types. Some say that trying to find the “real messiah”, “real Yeshua” in the NT, is like trying to find a holy thing or some kosher food while searching through a dumpster. In that case, you can cleanse it maybe, but why since you have the original uncontaminated messiah concept in the Tanakh. Why search for “love in all the wrong places?”
As a matter of fact I was brought up with the idea of “Jesus” and lived in it for some 50 years. “My God”, today, is ELOHIM only. YHVH is n o t triune – Shma! If the name EliYahu (Elijah) which means “ELOHIM is YHVH” would make this navi a “God” I would have to serve him. But it did n o t ! Why should the name “Yeshua” have made this man a divinity? Consider this pretention from the point of trinity and you will be amazed! Yeshua, in my education, was stripped of all Hebrew information and even given a pagan name. Jesus was a Christian, a pagan, so to say. Some information in the “NT” refer to Jewish background while others are much too Roman Catholic.
Therefore I devide between a Christian Jesus and a Jewish Yeshua. And, as you said, I find nothing in him that might refer to some kind of divinity. Yeshua kept the Torah, while on the other hand, the St. Paul of the RCC abolished it.
“But Isaiah teaches us that when the arm of the Lord is ultimately revealed, the world will react with shock and consternation (Isaiah 53:1).”
The answer to the Middle East Crisis is this: “The Tree Bears Jesus”
And the question is: “What kind of tree grows in the middle of the garden of Eden?”
So is that a shock? The Tree of Knowledge of good and bad is a Book. Books hold knowledge and have leaves. Trees don’t really grow knowledge do they? Books amoung other things are made from Trees. A Tree is a metaphor for a Book. God says don’t eat the fruit from the tree or you will die. That means the Cross is Poison.
My big question is, “Now why couldn’t anyone see that Jesus is the fruit until now?”
For an even bigger shock, guess who Satan is? Enter the Serpent,
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
First a beast is a mammal. The snake talks. The only mammal that talks is man. So we now have at least 3 people in the garden here. The serpent speaks from the stick. The church speacks from the cross. Sounds like Satan is the Roman Catholic Church to me.
Are you in Shock yet. That’s not enough proof for you is it. Well here is more:
Genesis 3:4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.”
Satan says eat the fruit and you positively will not die. The Church says take in Jesus and you positively will not die. Satan and the Church sound the same to me. Verse 3:5 is also more proof that the book is the Bible. What other book can you read that opens your eyes to be like God, knowing good and bad? Besides another book based on the Bible?
Here is more proof that Jesus is the fruit from the New Testament. After Eve shared the fruit (Jesus) with Adam their eyes became opened and they realized that being naked is a sin. They began sewing leaves together to make coverings to hid their shame.
Remember there is no known fruit (food) that you can eat that gives you any knowledge. And there certainly isn’t any fruit that you can eat that will suddenly make you realize your naked. However if you read the Bible or listen to the Church your going to find out that being naked is a sin.
Out of all of the Childrens Stories in the Bible, Adam and Eve is my favorite. It is just such a brilliant piece of work. God wrote two stories with the words of one. And not only that, it’s a prophesy about the future. Who else could do that? That’s proof God wrote Genesis.
Melanie
Thanks for posting – you may find this article interesting – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/trust-grattitudeand-the-joy-of-obedience/
Shalom Melanie.
My comment, “Just brilliant!”
Quote: “The Tree Bears Jesus”. For some time now I am aware of Jesus as a carven Idol although I had served him and even bowed myself to him.
>> Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. <> 1Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. <<
It is really shocking to see the consequences of the two trees in the garden. There is no tree of the knowledge of life; it is the tree of life. But the other one is the tree of knowledge.
Now, imagine this: HQBH prohibited the people of Israel carven images in the Ten Commandments. But navi Yeshayahu, in chapter 52 & 53 prophesied a Christian carven image in the name of HaShem. This thought, to me is unthinkable today! For some fifty years I was taught otherwise.
Satan – a bigger shock? May I shock you? Moshe was totally unaware of a Satan! "Serpent" means "nachash" and vice versa. But Satan means "withstand" or "adversary". To translate 'Satan' with 'nachash', definitely is a mistranslation. The first time "satan" is mentioned in the Torah, it is mentioned as a verb. It is mentioned with Balaam in Num 22:32 first. But in this case Balaam is not the Satan, but the Angel of ELOHIM is. To 'satan' Balaam, in fact was a blessing for Israel. Is Satan really evil? When we think of the nachash and the tree I have another question: who created the three of knowledge and planted it in the garden? It was neither the nachash (serpent) nor was it Satan. Think about it!
Greetings
Shomer
Correction: Between Exodus and 1st Corinthinas something got lost:
>> The cross is the symbol of death as such – but Christians twisted it to life in a mystical way. <<
Shalom Shomer,
“To translate ‘Satan’ with ‘nachash’, definitely is a mistranslation”. Your probably correct in saying it is a mistranslation.
In interpreting the story about Adam and Eve I am working with clues, words that sound the same, and symbols. Adam sounds like Atom, Bare sounds like Bear, Cain is Cane, Abel is Able. Eve is the time period before an event. Christains, who are wrong, refer to the Serpent as The Beast, Satan, Devil, etc. I am using theirs sayings as part of interpretation. I also find the interpretation some what humorous in the fact that, Christains will all tell you that if you worship Satan your going to Hell. And they’re the ones. I wonder if they can laugh at themselves after this. I know they can’t admit that they’re wrong. I’ve been blogging with them.
Reasoning if the Tree of Knowledge of good and bad is a Book. It also stands to reason that the Tree of Life is really the Book of Life. Those that are going to Heaven are written in the Book of Life. The garden of Eden is Heaven. Mans destiny was written in Heaven before he left the garden. The time that Adam and Eve spent in the garden was one day or less. Reasoning it was just one day is because they are naked. We are all born naked, shortly after birth our parents put clothes on us. God does the same.
You have more knowledge of the Bible than I do. Words that you wrote that I am not familiar with are, ‘nachash’, Moshe, ELOHIM, HaShem. However I do see HaShem as a jumbled word, which is Shameh, which sounds like shame-th on you. and ELOHIM as a reversed word: Mihole, which sounds like My Hole. What do these words means?
Your wrote: “To ‘satan’ Balaam, in fact was a blessing for Israel.” Since what I posted on Oct. 4 above, would be a blessing to Israel. Because it proves that the Jews are right, Jesus is not the Messiah. The Jews have been right all along and everyone else is wrong.
What that means that everyone is wrong about the Middle East Crisis except the Jews. I do hope this is a blessing for the Jews. I would like to the see the war end soon.
God also sent me to the Book of Daniel to interpret the story about Nebachadnezzar’s dream about the tree that grows tall into the Heavens. This is the Twin Towers story or 911. A tree in this story is a metaphor for a skyscrapper. Saddam is Nebachadnezzar. When the Tree fell so did the economy (Wall Street fell). When the tree fell so did the empires of both Nebachadnezzar and Saddam. At the end of the story Nebs son is killed and so were Saddams sons. When they pulled Saddam out of the hole his hair looked like eagle feathers. Both Neb and Saddam went into a period of exile and maddness. People went looking for both men, and both Neb and Saddam were restored or brought back.
Melanie
Elohim means deity
Strong’s Dictionary:
H430
אלהים
‘ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem’
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: – angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
In the Hebrew Tanach, my Computer Bible detects 2590 matches of ELOHIM, not counting “EL” or “Eloah” (H433).
With Judaism, I (as a former Christian) must be very carefully. Some Jews accept when I write or say “YHVH”, others don’t. Thus I prefer to use Expressions that don’t upset my Jewish brothers (& sisters). But often it is just this that upsets them…. When I am positive I am right now, I can be sure that I am badly mistaken. On the other Hand I don’t mind to upset Christians any more.
How can a pagan divinity, born by a “Holy Virgin”, nailed to a crucifix as a carven idol, born on the birthday of the pagan sun-God Mithras, crucified on behalf of “the Jews” on “God Friday” (Freya was a pagan Goddess, too) and risen 39 hours later from the dead on the fertility feast of the pagan Goddess Easter – how can this pagan Idol be the Mashiach of Israel? That’s impossible – isn’t it?
>Gen 41:45 And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.Gen 45:3-4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence. 4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.<
It is widely assumed that Joseph lived a prophetical life for the Mashiach, later being twisted to a pagan divinity by gentiles. There indeed are parallels between the lives of both. In case Yeshua BarYoseph was the Messiah, he would reveal himself to his brethren very soon – and guess what he is going to do with Christians first! He will send all those out that called him 'Jesus Christ' (like Joseph in Egypt dealt with the Egyptians that called him 'Zaphnathpaaneah'). In case (!) Yeshua (not Christian Jesus!) is the Mashiach of the Hebrew people, he reveals his true identity to his brothers only but never to idolatrous pagans. But it is also possible that a physical son of Yeshua (& king David) would be the anticipated Mashiach. This, Christians never would accept with their 'Jesus' who lived a life in celibacy like RCC-clergy men.
Shavuah Tov
Shomer
Shomer, When like minds meet. Like you I used to be a Christain, aprox. 4 years ago. Then I found the correct answers. Like you I have been to Strongs Dictionary but only to look up a few Jewish words like: tsrif and tsal (last is first). I think you have made more trips to Strongs than I have. Like you I also looked up the Latin word “sus”. You can tell Christains what it means or say they can look up the word themselves if they don’t believe you. They certainly aren’t going to like it at all. Not one bit. But I think it is to hard for some people to do any research even if it just going to the dictionary. Then before the Internet was created it was harder to do any research. You had to go to the library or the book store, then find the book. Then the information might not be there for you. People have some catching up to do. Information is now more available on the Internet and it keeps growing.
Then I think the Latin word SUS tells us what the Romans really thought of the Jews. My thought is when the Romans made up the NT it was originally created to make fun of the Jews and their religion. They obviously didn’t believe in the Jewish God, cause it clearly says what happens to false prophets in the OT (Deuteronomy). The Romans had no fear of death (going to Hell). Over time and lots of tinkering Jesus became the Messiah, the Church became powerful and they started collecting money. Remember in the early years the only Bibles were held by the Church. The common man didn’t have a book. That is what I think happened. Now I can say all of this cause I am not a Jew. Jews don’t stand up for what they know. I think they are afraid that the Christains will strike back at them. The Jews are very quiet on the Internet. They don’t want to start a conflict with the christains cause they have their hands full with the Arabs. Everybody hates them.
IMO, I would like to see more former Christains stand up and say the Jews are right. Then we would all be in Harmony. I have been talking to others on the Internet that have something to say about religion for about 4 years now. Some people are more open than others, some Christains sites will delete everything I write, call me names, tell me to repent, pray for me, heratic and ask me to stop blogging. At that point I leave. If they don’t want me there I am gone.
And thank you for using the word Brilliant. That was such a nice change. It made my day.
God is the one that’s brilliant.
Shalom Melanie
My personal reformation started exactly nine years ago. My vastest changes in knowledge, I experienced in 2004/2005
They told us, it doesn’t matter whether you use ‘Jesus’ or ‘Yeshua’ – both are the same. I personally discovered so many contradictions between both that I never ever would agree any more. Melanie, thanks for your statement. We are not alone! According to Jewish research, I know that I must be a descendant of the House of Ephraim (so-called lost tribes). I consider it as a proof that I am attracted by Jewish mind set.
Yeshua is a Hebrew name meaning; YAH is SHUA (like Yehoshua was). Who, please, is “shua”? Yeshua isn’t, Jesus isn’t, Mary isn’t – shall I go ahead? Shua is YHVH only!
Since “God” is used along with Trinity and other pagan divinities (Zeus is God etc.), I don’t like to use this expression any more – as I don’t like “Jesus” any more. I even discovered that Yeshayahu had prophesied judgment to all those, that serve “God” instead of HIMself.
Isa 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
In the Hebrew book of Yeshayahu, instead of “troop” we find the word “God”
H1408
גּד
gad
gad
A variation of H1409; Fortune, a Babylonian deity: – that troop.
Even today, in the US the English word “God” (G – O – D) is pronounced like “Gad” (with an “a”
like in “car”)
Tonight, in a German Christian TV programme there was broadcast a talk show with Prof. Ruth Lapide, a German Jewish religion scientist. She mentioned her discovery that “Jesus” was a descendant of Moabite woman Ruth. But Moab was conceived in an incest by Lot when he was made drunk by his firstborn daughter (see Gen 19:31-38). The fact that Jesus’ ancestor Ruth was a descendant of such a bastard should trouble every Jesus-believing Christian. Thus, Jesus himself was a descendant of this bastard Moab. A Jewish Rabbi is not troubled about this fact but a Christian semi-God with such a background is unthinkable. For this reason Joseph cannot be the father of Jesus Christ, but the third person of the “holy Trinity” was intimate with the holy virgin.
Yeshayahu was a realist when he wrote chapters 52 and 53 but never ever a Christian mysticist.
Bye, Shomer
Shomer, I am guessing that Yeshayahu is Isaiah? I guess I need to read more in the Book of Isaiah. The following is what I found on another site. “He (Yeshayahu) prophesed that there would be a change in the world, that will feature the end of war, and the ascendancy of the People of Israel. All the nations will then recognize the Temple in Jerusalem as the spiritual center of the world, and HaShem as the true G-d. ”
These are a few of the things I believe G-d wants done in my life time or soon after. 1) End the war. 2) Create Jerusalem as the spiritual center of the World.
The first step to accomplish this is that: those that are wrong about everything, which consists of a great number of people, have to accept that they are wrong. Satan has deceived the whole world and so has the whore. People are not going to like this and there is going to be lots of resistance. No one likes being wrong. I don’t like being wrong either but I can accept it when I am. I believe that G-d has given me some tools to accomplishing this task. The tools are words. Words are greater than the sword.
Shalom, Melanie
The “Anticipated Mashiach” . HIs name is Yeshua. And he is here now in American. Yeshua is a jumbled name. If you rearrange the letters in Yeshua your get: HEY USA .
After reading Isaiah 53, ‘The United States of America’ in my opinion fits the description of the Mashiach. America is dispised by the rest of the World. Most nations hates us. And our soldiers suffer on the battle ground.
This is BULL SHIT. In order for anyone to understand the text you have to be able to think like a Jew. Get some real guidance on the matter!!! You want to learn the truth via the web. Try aish.com
Who is the Whore of Babylon? His name is: “Madamm Ho”.
However, first you need to unjumble the letters in his name to find out who the great whore is.
Corrections: your should be you and hates should be hate. Sorry, I try to write to fast and make horrible errors like this. I did reread what I wrote and I still missed these two words.
Is the United States of America from the House of David? However I am guessing that this requirement comes From Isaiah 11:1 which says this:
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots;
My Bible has a different yet similar version below.
Isaiah 11:1 And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse: and out of the roots a sprout will be fruitful.
Now I have a question. Is this the verse where the Mashiach is to come from the House of David?
Isaiah 53 Teaches that Jesus is NOT the Messiah
Now we know what Isaiah 53 is NOT teaching. But what does Isaiah 53 teach instead? Someone told me that Yehuda is the suffering servant – is he? Look at this:
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
If Israel was not “My People” it would make sense. I mean; how can Yehuda suffer for the transgression of Yehuda? I’ld like to comprehend.
Hi Shomer
The words “my people” are the expression of the gentile kings each speaking about their respective nations – thus it is not Israel (or Yehuda) suffering for Israel but rather the righteous of Israel suffering for the Gentile nations.
Even if you want to insist that “my nation” refers to Israel – still, since the “servant” is limited to the righteous of Israel – it would still have the righteous suffering for the rest of the nation.
“thus it is not Israel (or Yehuda) suffering for Israel but rather the righteous of Israel suffering for the Gentile nations.”
Nobody is suffering for anyone here. The Jews are suffering FROM, or BECAUSE OF the gentiles. The suffering servant is clearly Israel and the proper translation of the text is FROM not FOR!
Dear Jacob;
Do not feel like the Lone Ranger here. Many Christians mis-read the Tanach.
What many do not realize is that the Hebrew Prophets and Writings, translated into Greek, were done by Gentiles, in what is suppose to be the Septuagent. Then, Marcion, not happy with the version they had, had another translation made, which coincided with their theology, not correct to the Hebrew!
Most translations in English were and are made from the Marcion version. One reason why so much of what Christians transmite to their targets is incorrect. Also, I have read comments by converts to Judaism, where they relate that the reading of the Tanach in either the Hebrew, or a good translation, motivated them to change, to convert to Judaism
I think if Christianity would put aside the curropt versions, and use one closer to what G-d said, or just use the Hebrew, they would lose less people to convertion to other faiths, as the Noahide or Judaism.
So if you want to know what G-d said, I think I have shared an idea which can work for the majority of people.
Shalom;
Yechiel
God uses symbols in his messages. This is what I realized recently: The Tree is both a symbol of Birth and Death. That means that Birth and Death are the same. Example: At Christmas time near the end of the year, winter, most of us put a pine tree in our houses to celebrate the birth of Jesus. The Christmas Tree is a symbol of Birth.
Death came when Jesus was nailed to a Tree near the beginning of the year (Spring). The Tree is also a symbol of death. Death is First then Last is Birth. First is Last and Last is First. Birth is Last.
Winter is where everything dies, Jesus birth. Spring is when everything comes back to Life, Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Is that confusing for everyone? It confuses me too, but that is how I read the symbols.
Now for some more confusion. The Book of Genesis is at the very beginning of the Bible. However in some stories the author tells the end of the story first. Last is First. God does the same thing. God is telling us about the future in the story about Adam and Eve and not the beginning of life. God is telling us a story.
However God does everything in reverse. In Gods world Birth is Last.
Now the Story about Cain and Abel is also about the future. Since Adam and Eve are representatives for all of us, so are their children. Cain and Abel are representatives for all of us. When Cain tells his brother “Lets go out to the field”. What Cain is really saying is, Let’s go out to the battle field”. The story about Cain and Abel is about how we settle our differences out on the battle field. This is the middle east conflict and all the wars before that. Both Cain and Abel are similar, they are both farmers. However they are both different kinds of farmers. This is where their differences start.
God wants to know when we are going to get the mastery of this.
Hi there all from “The Great South Land of Oz, Shalom.
I have really enjoyed all your comments in regards to Isaiah 53 and I have left a few comments here and there on this post. It has been great! I know I’am coming in a little late on your blog, but any way here’s a little more. There is a really good article available on Aish.com on Isaiah that you guys might find very interesting to read and study. It might add a little fuel to your responses in the future. Why do I say this?
As I have been reading all your comments, by and large you are going around in circles with the occasional added bit of info. This article can be looked up on:
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_Suffering_Servant.html
I think it will prove very interesting to you guys. Food for thought.
Shalom.
Dear Friends;
Even if you could prove that isaiah 53 refers to Jesus, you still loose!
There are several items in the Gospels which ocntradict Torah.
What we have are two different theologies. So if you are a Christian, follow Jesus’s teachings, a la Torah, and help make this the kind of world HaShem wants, instead of the bloodshed commentted over the past two thousands years.
Then, you will be giving your view some credince, not working hard to desrtoy HaShem’s way.
Shalom;
Yechiel
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I’m sorry but you are an idiot if you think that Jesus was not hated by the people, he was crucified because people thought he lied and was deceitful towards them. It may be easy to say Jesus is a well respected Jew now but at the time he was not. The revealing of the arm of The Lord has happened and now Jesus is respected. Jesus was not well known at the time because he was not the only person claiming to be the son of God so this fact makes your argument invalid.
Max
If “being respected” means having the Arm of teh Lord revealed upon you then many people would fit this claim – the context of Isaiah makes it clear that teh revealing of the Arm of the Lord has nothing to do with the subjective respect of humans – it will be an event that everyone will see
Dear Max;
OK. We have your testimony, we have the Gospels.
In your testimony, I get the idea that there was no exception to the Jews hating him. Maybe so, but he did have diciples-11 out of 12 Jewish. He did have those who followed him around; majority of them Jewish. So your idea that the Jews hated him may be with merit, but it is the curropt leaders of the Jews which gives your statement merit, while the majority of the people recognized that he taught the true Judaism, of justice, mercy and humility (read Micah; 6:6-8, and 7:til end of chapter) and also, Robert Tannenbaum; “Fury”, chapter 11.
By coincedence, Claire was reading this chapter, and called me over to share it with me. It is as if G-d intended or me to hear, and it is good and it strengthened my faith in Him.
As for Jesus and the love/hate we are talking about? Remember some of the greatest humans were Americans. They spoke up for our ideas and traditioins, fought for them, were murdered for them. Would you say all Americans hated these great peole because they were killed in America?
Also, as I mentioned earlier, who were there to start and worship as followers of G-d, as Jesus taught? Who knew the language, the traditions, the connecting fibers of their faith with the Mother Faith? It was the Empior who demanded, and got the fiber of the faith cut and changed. It is through this curropted fiber that, Max, you look at the readings of the Gospel, not the truth of what was taught; Torah centered Tanach!
It is this change which separated Judaism from the Nazarine, the Torah of G-d from the Gospel of Paul.
But, Max, the truth shines it own light. Even with the Hebrew Christians put out here, as a false teaching, thousands of Christian raised men and women are coming to Torah each year. Some as Christians who seek a connection with the real Jesus, some who see past Jesus, all the way to G-d, and become Noahide, or Convert to Judaism. But everyone I listened to did so with love for all in their heart.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE JEWISH TO BE SAVED; YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT G-D WANTS.
I hope we can get past the love/hate discussion and just do as G-d wants. I try; do you?
Shalom;
Yechiel
Bravo, Bravo. I couldn’t agree more with Yechiel’s statement above. I write this by personal experience with finding the truth through the Jewish people and writings, and being a convert myself.
Strange you say that Jesus was not The Savior. His True Piercing Bright White Love Saved me Directly. Yes, in flesh and blood reality I was Saved through Jesus Christ. When I was close to death, I could literally taste the foul odor of a life lived in the lies and deceipt of this materialistic and putrid egotistical, scientific superiority of an existence many of us live. What was amazing was I Felt Him and in an instant knew Him to be True. 8 years on from that moment and every day I thank God that The Love of Jesus through the Holy Scriptures, written by man but Inspired by Love, came to find me, a poor egotistical sinner not worth a pinch of salt, but rich in the ways of this world. Let us not mock those who came before and had a different paradigm of understanding, for in so doing we place our own skewed materialistic intellectualism paradigm above ancient wisdom we cannot fully grasp for we where not within the essence of that time gone by. Wonder why those prophets faced certain death and persecution by the Jews and the Romans, if it where not the True Risen Jesus Christ that they saw? Nobody would risk their lives for anything they had not seen and felt with their own eyes. Especially in a patriarchal Jewish Society of those days, it would be unfathomable to go against the traditions of ones family, and yet, they did, they Proclaimed a Risen God, Jesus Christ. No matter, friends, when His Love touches you, that knowing beyond all explanation will make such complete and total sense, you would seem like a fool among your peers if you tried to explain it. God Bless you all, every Faith, every Culture, every Creed, for we live not apart, but rather together, even if that is what we do not want nor see at this moment.
“nobody would risk their lives”??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)
My understanding all these people were educated and none were seeing a shrink.
Kyle, you said:
“Nobody would risk their lives for anything they had not seen and felt with their own eyes.”
What then would you make of Moslems who not only “risk’ their lives but willingly blow themselves up in the name of their religion? By your standard, is that then not the most compelling religious testimony of our time?
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KR
This is for you
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/non-prophet/
FALSE PRIESTS NOT FALSE PROPHET.
Perhaps you should know better.
The pseudo-priesthood acting at the time of Messiah were self appointed and operating in a temple built by the nominal Jew, Herod (a Roman pleaser) which was cleaned out for selling on the sabbath and then destroyed for killing the prophets and especially the one who prophesied its destruction.
Furthermore the heavenly Father warns that those who bear false witness shall receive the same punishment. The false priests tried to destroy the temple of Y’shua (which is the body of Ya) and thus their temple (stone house of Ya) was destoyed in return-strike one in fulfillement of the law and prophecy by a true prophet and by Torah
15 ¶One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. 16 ¶If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong 17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before Yah, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; 18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, IF THE WITNESS BE A FALSE WITNESS, AND HATH TESTIFIED FALSELY AGAINST HIS BROTHER; 19 THEN SHALL YE DO UNTO HIM, AS HE HAD THOUGHT TO HAVE DONE UNTO HIS BROTHER: SO SHALT THOU PUT THE EVIL AWAY FROM AMONG YOU. 20 AND THOSE WHICH REMAIN SHALL HEAR, AND FEAR, AND SHALL HENCEFORTH COMMIT NO MORE ANY SUCH EVIL AMONG YOU. 21 AND THINE EYE SHALL NOT PITY; BUT LIFE SHALL GO FOR LIFE, EYE FOR EYE, TOOTH FOR TOOTH, HAND FOR HAND, FOOT FOR FOOT.
Strike two was the fulfillment of an end to sacrifices at the date set out by prophet Daniel by Messiah the true prophet.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
You refer to the prophets who were true such as Isaiah etc, as if they were also not under the persecution of corrupt councils in the land that Ya had given, when this was happening all along and the false prophets were being allowed to
prophesy by the means of the corrupt priests by their OWN means (ie OWN authority) . So to merely assume that one who sits in the seat of Moses is infallible is much like a Pope to an idolatrous catholic.
The fact that the council had to pass Messiah over to Pilate to be killed shows that the priesthood was not operating in the same way as you pretend it was as laid out by Ya in Deuteronomy. Jerusalem was under PAX, not subject to an annointed King appointed by Ya but to Rome and had been under the secular “King of the Jews” ,half Roman Herod who was far from Ya fearing in any case. Thus their ruling still passed through the hands of Pilate who then washed his hands of the matter and found Messiah innocent. The Father shows that ONE WITNESS declared him innocent and that the priests acted UNLAWFULLY from the start:
Mat 26:
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, SOUGHT FALSE WITNESS against Messiah, to put him to death; 60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two FALSE witnesses, 61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of Yah, and to build it in three days.
The sign of your and my Prophet Jonah bore witness of a three days and nights in the grave , but did the priests even comprehend or listen to the prophets NO!!! The true prophets and more than a couple of false witnesses are what TRUE priests would have used to decide the matter but these priests did things by their OWN means.
They were looking for FALSE WITNESS TO PUT HIM TO DEATH a very big no no!!
My fellow Torah reader what does our Father say?
Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
11 Tim 2:5 8 But we know that the law is good, IF a man (INCLUDING A PRIEST) use it lawfully;
But we know the priests were not lawful therefore neither good. They did not heed the witness of the Roman, Pilate, now did they??
Instead, then, the people, the rabble were left to be the judges
The thinking that you have used here is no differnet to the same false teaching that we see among this mainstream catholic “christianity” who profess the saying “touch not gods annointed” referring to demonised, non torah obedient, so-called miracle healing false teachers eg Benny Hinn etc insinuating that Ya does not allow us to expose or challenge false doctrine, what then of Samuel the prophet who spoke to King Saul or John the baptiser who told king Herod off for not keeping Torah-he lost his head -where were the priests then why did they not support John in his upholdig of the Torah??? They were too busy pleasing the half Roman.
Likewise the Rabbis (call no man Rabbi save Y’shua) say to their victims that the torah is too hard too understand themselves and they must obey what th eRabbi says even whne it contradicts Torah-thus we have Talmudism etc.
All Our Heavenly Father has shown and allowed through his unfair sentence as prophesied, that His Son would be falsely accused :
Is 53: 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
, thus making a shame of the powers and principalities that have acted against the Torah from the very top.
Col 2:15 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
The corrupt priesthood is the very thing that was exposed through his death when he chose to lay his life down in that corrupt system.
and that is why he has been appointed the True And Righteous Judge who will return as such.
When your fellow Pharisee, and our apostle Paul and Peter were before the council, again being judged by false witnesses, they made it plain as to who has higher in authority.
Acts5:32 29 ¶Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey Ya rather than men.
and more
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Ruach ha Kodesh, whom Ya hath given to them that obey him. 33 ¶When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. 34 Then stood there up one in the council, a PHARISEE, NAMED GAMALIEL, A DOCTOR OF THE LAW, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of Ya, ye cannot overthrow it; LEST HAPLY YE BE FOUND EVEN TO FIGHT AGAINST YA. 40 And to him they agreed:
Did the Council of the Pharisee, Gamaliel then not work out and cancel the council of the false priests who had tried to destroy the work of Messiah??? was Gamaliel not honouring Ya above the council of men?
LEST HAPLY YE BE FOUND EVEN TO FIGHT AGAINST YA.
Yes he was and it was contrary to how the false priests at Y’shua’s hearing operated.
So why have you not heeded the verdict of the prophet then who you call false, our Messiah Eoshoa/ Y’shua
Mat 16:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art messiah, the Son of the living Ya. 17 And Y’shua answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but mY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and [BUT] upon this [THAT] rock (referring to the Father not Peter or a Pope) I will build my congregation; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Gamaliel made true council and was not as spineless as those so-called priests. Ya is no respector of persons- King David learnt that early when he sinned -even he suffered loss but repented for the better.
The father has witnessed such things by these false priests over and over again amongst his chosen people who allow false prophets to prophesy and the true ones to be killed. The priesthood was not INFALLIBLE then and far less so in Mesisah’s time following Ichabod.
You would do well my friend to hear your true prophet’s warning and repent of such error then
Jer 5: 30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed IN THE LAND;31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by
their means* ; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
* yad -by themselves, presumptuously etc etc ie self appointed ruling.
So I ask what will you do?????
I find it ironic too that the word presmptuous is mentioned here referring now directly to the priests themselves since your quote
of Deuteronomy contains 17:12 And the man that will do PRESUMPTUOUSLY, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there BEFORE Ya THY Eil, or unto the judge,
It is accepted that they are to be BEFORE YA when judging ie SERVING HIM LAWFULLY just as it is assumed that the parent is LAWFUL
before Ya and the child can thus honour him, but what if his parent does not the will of the Heavenly Father???
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Or What of Ezekiel another one of our true Prophets, do you heed his voice?
EZEKIEL 22: 25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. 26 HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine kodesh things: they have put no difference between the separated and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. 28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Master Ya, when the Master hath not spoken.
Mat23:
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 ¶Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
It would have been the priests themselves who killed this true prophet Zacharias since only they were allowed in this section of the temple or else it was the scribes and /Pharisees who entered there unlawfully -either way : UNLAWFUL and blasphemous!!
I do not need to make any excuse for my prophet who rose again and gave the sign of Jonah, the physical temple was also destroyed much to the contradiction of the claim that not every stone fell.Those who worship instead the stones of a fort ie wailing wall, rather than seeing the Corner stone Messiah that has been laid upon Ya the Rock and we are to be the living stones of that house of Ya, that we are the temple and not a temple built with hands and that we have now a High Priest whose name is Y’shua/Eoshoa the begotten son of the livng Ya.
Why do men pray to dead stones? Do they have ears? Have they not already spoken when the Son said they will fall. Why not to the living Ya whose son will conquer death itself when he raises his righteous people to life at the last day.
If you regard men above Ya and his Torah then you have an idolatrous religion.
not even the true prophet Eoshoa/Y’shua was seen to be doing that by the very PHARISEES as stated themselves :
Mat 22: 15 ¶Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of Ya in truth, NEITHER CAREST THOU FOR ANY MAN: FOR THOU REGARDEST NOT THE PERSON OF MEN.
the true idolatry is that of men worshipping men and that was the real thorn in the side for most Pharisees since Y’shua exposed this in them.
But not all were this way, by the mercy of Ya, for we find men of faith like Joseph of Aramethaea.
Now what of him? -did he accept the Sanhedrin council did he accept his death -NO he did not since he was indeed a disciple (talmidim) of Eoshoa /Y’shu and therefore awaited his coming Kingdom by faith. Thus his faith was put into action:
Mark 15:43
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor (member of the SANHEDRIN), WHICH ALSO WAITED FOR THE KINGDOM OF YA, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Y’shua. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
Pliate and Joseph were two in the whole process who did NOT accept the FALSE PRIESTS authority and neither do I since
we must obey Ya rather than men- the first commanment which is above every other, Torah must be followed in that spirit and not be manipulated in order to please man which your fellow Pharisee friend Paul declared too.
21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. 22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, FEARING YA: 23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the MASTER, and NOT unto men;
Nonetheless having said all, Ya had sent his son to die as prophesied and his Son laid down his own life to fulfill the requirement that he had to be our passover lamb. It was the will of the Father that sent him to his death and resurrection it was not by the will of the false priests. They did not receive that power even though they were false except that it was given to them as scripture itself testifies. So we do not see the priests as the end to the prophet and sent saviour Y’shua, but the beginning of our faith and thus the wisdom(TORAH) of Ya which confounds the worldy wise.
John 10:
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. THIS COMMANDMENT HAVE I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER.
Shalom to you if you abide in the doctrine of the law and the true prophets.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Isaiah 53:9
This should have been reversed if we want to prove that jesus is the messiah…
And he made his grave with the RICH, and with the WICKED in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Who do think will pardon you from your sins? I hope you don’t think that for 2400 years God has no responded to the world. The old covenant was broken. Its ridicules to think that your righteousness(filthy rags) will exceed your evil deeds. With that said, Do you think God can’t enter a human body any relay his message to someone who is fully willing? All the prophets ran away from God because the Israelites were trying to kill them!!! How much more would God himself die trying to tell them the truth.“Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
3 Let us acknowledge the Lord;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth.”
4 “What can I do with you, Ephraim?
What can I do with you, Judah?
Your love is like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears.
5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth—
then my judgments go forth like the sun.[a]
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 As at Adam,[b] they have broken the covenant;
they were unfaithful to me there.
Aaron You ask who I think will pardon me from my sins? God will – the only One who can pardon and He pardons those who turn to Him and to Him alone for mercy 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Do you offer sacrifices in respect to the old covenant?! If so, what in the First book indicates that Israel is in favor with God (possibly the last time was when Solomon was alive). Since then and still now there is nothing but bloodshed. Now my pharisee friend (Isaiah 53 Christ) is showing light on the Gentiles and some gentiles have accepted the truth. As some know Salvation is from the Israel. With that being said, Yahusha my messiah, is the one who intercedes for my sins( Isaiah 53). The abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke about is???? Christ refereed to himself as God and no one ran to hills- fair to say he is the most famous person to ever live. Lastly, Once Israel cries out to him( the one they pierced) we will have peace on earth!
Aaron In respect to what you call the “old covenant” we do NOT offer sacrifices. According to the Law of Moses – sacrifices are only to be offered in the Temple. Repentance ALWAYS works – just read Isaiah 55:7. Even in exile we are in favor with God as per Ezekiel 11:16.
Your Jesus/Yahushua was a sinner himself as per Job 25:4
The abomination of desolation is the mosque on the Temple mount (there used to be a church there)
The fact that Jesus is the most famous person on earth does not impress – no one had more bloodshed committed in his name than Jesus and specifically bloodshed of God’s firstborn son as per Exodus 4:22
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
i don’t care what christian reading of is 53 is. i do know that human sacrificial rituals /”bloodshed” was practised all over the world. maybe after your god drowned everybody he developed a taste for human blood and flesh and decided to create flesh and blood for himself? so he let adam have children and waited on his high seat and then decided to drown everybody because he is “just ” god. then he wrote is 53 for himself and decided to act out his own todo list to make himself happy? christ the blashphemer was drunk on his own dirty arrogance and then the funny thing is that the instruction to kill the blasphemour is written by god himself in the torah.
“Your Jesus/Yahushua was a sinner himself as per Job 25:4”
his sins are exposed in the book by hector avalos “bad jesus”
jesus gets a good baptism in this book.
Hi Aaron, it’s good that you want G-d to forgive your sins, but your solution does not work:
He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh. Proverbs 17:15
He who justifies the wicked (that’s you).
he who condemns the righteous (that’s Jesus according to you)
G-d would not condemn Jesus (the only righteous man as per NT) on the cross for your sin because that also would be an abomination for G-d.
The law says specifically that the one that sin should be put to death and no other.
Deuteronomy 24:16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.
This is repeated in the book of Jeremiah
Jeremiah 31:30 say:
“The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children”s teeth are set on edge.” But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Ezekiel 14:14 says
even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
So again, those 3 righteous individuals could only saved themselves because of their own righteousness.
Ezekiel 18:3 says:
As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
Nowhere in the Bible someone else can be punished for somebody else’s sins. This is just unbiblical.
So how can someone be considered righteous?
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? Ezekiel 18:21-23
Thus, by turning from your sins G-d will forgive your sins. G-d would not punish the innocent for you.
Isaiah 1 says:
“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
Isaiah 55:7 says:
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
So if we turn from our wicked ways, G-d will forgive. But G-d will NOT put your sins on Jesus and worshipping Jesus itself is Idolatry. Furthermore when you pray to your dead-man god, you are doing necromancy, and this is an abomination as per the law (Deut 18:11)
yourphariseefriend: Where in Yahu-sha ( God’s Salvation) teachings does he speak of violence against Israel? which you refer to as God’s first born son. What Israel has done is on their own head not Jesus who you claim is my messiah (whether it be sacrificing their kids to Baal, or forgetting God because they hold to human taught traditions). If they were in good standing Today, Gods wrath would have already ceased. But it hasn’t.
Who is the servant bearing people sins in Isaiah 53? When do you feel the Messiahs will come?
Messiah= the branch= servant= the born child=stone the builders rejected (Psalms 118:22)
Isaiah 28 vs 16
See I lay stone in Zion, as tested stone; a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation, the one who TRUSTS will never be dismayed, I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line.
Zechariah 3 vs 9
I am going to bring my servant, The branch. See, the stone I have set in front (Joshua) the name of the Branch referred to in Zechariah 6 vs 12). On that stone I will engrave an inscription says the Lord almighty, and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day!
According to Hosea 1-6 You have broken covenant, 3 days you will be cleansed, and the prophets tore you up with HIS WORDS.
The Holy one of Israel is both God and came to us as child born of a young woman.
Isaiah 45-11 This what the Lords says- (The holy one of Israel and its MAKER)
45-22 And there is no God part from me, a (righteous God and a Savior there is non but me)
48-16-18 And now the Sovereign Lord has sent me with his spirit. ( This what the Lord says- your Redeemer, the holy one of Israel. I am the LORD YOUR GOD.
Prove it through Yh’s word not any other book or human opinion:
Isaiah 2-22 Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils.
*Holy One of Israel=
Isaiah 1 They have forsaken the Lord; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.
Isaiah 3 the Branch of the Lord will wash away the filth of the women in Zion, he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a Spirit of judgement and a spirit of fire.
Isaiah 6 the Holy seed will be the stump of the Land
Isaiah 7 Immanuel “God with us” a child is born
Isaiah 8 vs He will be a holy place; he will be a STONE that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of JERusalem he will be a trap and a snare.
Many of them will stumble; they will fall and be broken, they will be snared and captured.
Isaiah 9 For us a child is born to us a child is given, the government will on his shoulders, he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 10 The remnant of Israel will truly rely on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 11 The Branch of Jesse
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse- The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, Spirit of the Knowledge and fear of the Lord.
*He will not judge by what he sees or hear.
*He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
Isaiah 17 vs 7 in that day people will look to their Maker and turn their eyes to the Holy one of Israel.
Isaiah 27 vs 11 For this is a people without understanding: so their Maker has no compassion on them, and their Creator show them no favor.
Aaron The Jesus that doesn’t hate Jews is a recent newcomer to the scene. The Jesus that lived in the hearts of so many people for so many years hated God’s firstborn son – not according to me but according to the Scriptures – I didn’t write Exodus 4:22
Isaiah 2:22 says it all – last I checked Jesus used to breath through his nostrils just like you and me.
I addressed all of your questions many times over in the articles on this blog – I suggest you start from 1000 Verses and take it from there https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/1000-verses/
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
“Who is the servant bearing people sins in Isaiah 53? When do you feel the Messiahs will come?”
Does it mater, it does not fit Jesus! Israel would be logical, especially that death is plural. And again, regardless who it is, it’s not Jesus!
Psalm 118:
It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man (like JESUS)
And the stone which the builder rejected is David. No reason to believe it’s Jesus anyway.
Isaiah 28:15
For you said, “We have made a treaty with death, and with the grave we have set a limit; when an overflowing scourge passes, it shall not come upon us, for we have made lies our shelter and in falsehood have we hidden ourselves
When the city of Jerusalem was at siege and Assyria encamped against it. Some were trying to make a treaty with death (Assyria). The stone would be in this case Hezekiah.
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic.
What gets me is that Christian take Bible verse totally out of context. Did you read the chapter before sending it? No, I am sure you did not.
Zechariah 3 vs 9
Before Joshua… Unless Jesus was in front of him, we can be sure that it does not talk about him. Could it be a literal stone that was used for the building of the temple!
” HIS WORDS.”
The WORD of the L-rd, not Jesus (logos). See Plato and stoicism.
The Holy one of Israel is both God and came to us as child born of a young woman.
MAN, can you stop it there. Read Isaiah 7 in context, it does not speak about your Yeshua.
You know what… let’s just stop here. I am sure you won’t read the comment. But seriously just put one verse at a time, instead of your bunch of non-sense and I will answer them.
The Real Messianic:
Is the Holy One of Israel the messiah to come?
If so or if not?
What does the First book say about The messiah and what will his name be?
What are the prereqs if you will to be the Messiah?
That we can connect on that level. Remember that prophetic messages are not context but spiritual discerned. If you believe God who is spirit can be discerned by human logic…. I guess we would be able to put all the messages together and we would know Gods thoughts. Hence is why God spoke to people other than Moses and the prophets in parables.
yourphariseefriend:
When I read my bible I can’t find one verse that condones hating the Jews. Now the elders were leading the people astray? Yes. Even in the first book it mentions that all the time. I can’t tell you where or when the people or the teachers were honoring God in the first book after Solomon. As I read the 2nd book I have great admiration for the Jews especially the fact that my messiah is Hebrew.In fact, the Glorious image of the Father in the flesh. As my messiah said, salvation comes from the Jews. Now whether the Greek version of the name Jesus was used in a manner outside of Bible; that would be humans doing their own evil will. With that said, all the people who wrote the my bible are Jews.
If the majority of Israel has been incorrect about the prophets why would I trust them to determine if Yahusha my God the one who was crucified for telling the truth, was incorrect?
Did my Messiah do check list?
Do miracles:yes
Be presented a guilt offering: yes, because we are sinful. All the animals would be dead if the third temple existed to account for the whole world- being that no one believed the messiah had come.
Did he resurrect: Yes( his body didn’t see decay)
He desires mercy and not sacrifice so did he do away with sacrifices: Yes
Did he shed light on the gentiles: Yes… we who believe are drawn to Israel because he existed.
Can we live without sinful desires. nope. but the commandments made us conscious of sin. Yes. With that said, can we go without sinning. Nope. Furthermore if we had the third temple and sacrifices were permitted with that atone for sin.nope. Why because God doesn’t want animals he wants our hearts. With that, my messiah intercedes(Isaiah 53) on my behalf as well being a ransom(Isaiah 53) for many others
Prophetic messages are “Not’ context but spiritual discerned??
If you think that then you cannot say then that Israel is condemned because according to those as you the discernment didn’t come until “your” messiah came. How can G-d condemn when what is written is not what is meant.
If G-d is “spirit” then every person is thus god.
Your “god” was crucified? Do you understand the infinite in comparison to the finite. How can infinite be finite. As with all Xtians they simply cannot “Accept” there is an Infinite G-d. Infinite Cannot be finite, otherwise it would not be infinite. Can the heavens be measured. You would believe you can.
Xtians really put much emphasis on miracles. What proof is that. Torah even says miracles do not a prophet make.
If sacrifices are done away with then why will there be sacrifices, sin included, in the Third Temple times.
You have failed in making Any valid arguments. All you have is a belief with no foundation.
Aaron
The only reason I brought up the subject of Christian anti-Semitism is because you brought up the subject of Jesus’ fame – the Jew-loving Jesus was an unknown figure for most of history.
Your checklist for the Messiah has nothing to do with the Messiah predicted by the prophets of the Jewish Bible
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/09/14/messiah-letter-and-spirit/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/letter-to-sy-about-messiah/
Aaron
Here is another thought for you
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/good-bad-and-both/
Sharbano-
The foundation is Isaiah 53. If you can point out when I said that (interceding) and being a (ransom) for many is not mentioned then maybe you have case. As far as discernment, did not God who is spirit put the (words) on the Prophets tongue to speak to a rebellious nation. How much more the Holy One of Israel? Yet they no had no discernment and believed the prophets that were lying. Finally, When the Third Temple comes you will see the abomination of desolation spoken about in Daniel where someone will claim that he is god. Then you will flee to the mountains because he is the worthless Shepard. Yes my messiah (Yahusha) is one with the Father who raised him from the dead. Now sits on his right side!!!! Who has believed what we have heard? And who has the arm of the LORD been revealed to? (Isaiah 53) Then again at YeshaYahu 59 ( God is Salvation) He saw that there was no man– He was amazed that there was no one (interceding); so (His own arm brought salvation), and His own righteousness supported Him. He put on righteousness like a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and He wrapped Himself in zeal as in a cloak.
You have to really strain at a gnat to state your foundation is Isaiah 53. Heed the words of Jeremiah 16:19.
Daniel speaks Nothing regarding the Third Temple. Only Ezekiel tells of it.
Sharbano:
its easy tell someone you feel that they are wrong.
So please if you may, lay the foundation, on who the messiah is supposed to be?
Last point before I let you go scripture based on telling me who and what qualities, also where it addresses how the Messiah will come into the world-
Sharbano:
let me start you off: A messiah is a savior, whom God says there is no savior but me(Isaiah 45 vs 21) and again it says (Isaiah 49 6) i will also make you light for the Gentiles, that (you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth). Who is he referring to?
Their has been only one light for the Gentiles and that was after the death and Resurrection … It certainly hasn’t been the Jews due to their non existence influence in the world (1949 became a nation, 1967 backed by Christ based nation)
Do think the Messiah will come at the end of the age to be a light to the Gentiles when the world is already completely destroyed???? Remember God is who makes soul within the body…. I’m sure that he would become a light after an obstinate people went astray so that we all have ( a shot to bring glory to the 1 and only God.)
As with many, you’ve ignored much of the comments and followed the technique of distraction.
You should make the effort to read more than a single verse. THIS has been the failure of Xtian thinking. Most of your comment is a non-sequitur.
I thought it would take longer to find this, but here
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/isaiah-53-micah-7-and-isaiah-62/#comment-13490
Sharbano,
Please me tell yourself as to what are the qualifications of the Messiah?
Then I’ll go to your links and whatever else you have to substantiate your stance.
Aaron
Why do you need Sharbano to tell you the requirements of the Messiah when you have the Bible – I listed the relevant passages here – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/letter-to-sy-about-messiah/
“As with many, you’ve ignored much of the comments and followed the technique of distraction.”
Yes, that’s the Technic prevalent of Christians. Avoid anything the other is saying lest “satan” persuade you that Jesus was not the real messiah. I doubt he is reading anything we are saying, nor is interested to see if what we say is true.
That has also been my experience. Christians have been listening to themselves and not hearing what we have to say for 2000 years.
Yes, I always think that some will listen though and read what we have to say… I happened a few times since a year or so I have been bloging
That’s very encouraging!
That IS a profound statement. Certainly the prevailing assumption IS, that Jews do Not or Will not speak the truth. In so doing they also make the assumption Jews do Not know OR understand scripture.
Many times the method used is simply “talking points”. Before they are capable of understanding Torah they will HAVE to know and understand the “why” Torah was written. Only understanding the ‘purpose’ will they be able to take the next step.
Yes, you, a Jews, are blinded. And I, a noahide, follow the doctrines of demons, so don’t listen to us!
QAAron
“and again it says (Isaiah 49 6)” i will also make you light for the Gentiles, that (you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth).” Did you mean for this to be a quote from Isaiah 49:6, I looked it up and this quote is from the New Testament Acts 13:47? I’m trying to follow you here, am I missing something?
Hi LarryB,
Paul was speaking in Act 13:47 and quoted a part of Isaiah49 6.
Isaiah 49 6 says:
” It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.
Aaron
First it says the Jewish people disagreed with Paul and I guess Barnabas. Because of this the NT accuses them of blasphemy and then Paul only quotes part of Isaiah inserting apparently himself and Barnabas into the Isaiah quote as being the light for the Gentiles. Clearly Isaiah was not teaching about Paul and Barnabas. This makes no sense.
“Is the Holy One of Israel the messiah to come?”
NO, the Holy One of Israel is The L-rd.
What does the First book say about The messiah and what will his name be?
Please provide a verse! Genesis
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.?
Let’s look at this one. If I say “Your bank account won’t go empty until I pay you” would that mean your bank account will be empty after I pay you? Also, there was no rulers since the first exile.
What are the prereqs if you will to be the Messiah?
A king from the line of David.
Jesus was not a king, nor from the line of David.
“That we can connect on that level. Remember that prophetic messages are not context but spiritual discerned. ”
Just for you not to be able to check if any actually really happened? How convenient!
Before you worship another god, I would suggest for you to have serious prove that he is what he said he is. Spiritual things that nobody can see are no sufficient for me to worship another god. Especially when the warning against doing such a blasphemy against G-d are so clear!
The Real Messainic:
NO, the Holy One of Israel is The L-rd. (Agreed the holy one of Israel is Lord)
What does the First book say about The messiah and what will his name be?
Please provide a verse! Genesis ( The Branch mentioned in Zachariah 6:12) Do you understand who the the Branch is referring to?
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.?( I agree, that scepter was held in Bethlehem. Good verse! Micah(5 vs 2-5)
Let’s look at this one. If I say “Your bank account won’t go empty until I pay you” would that mean your bank account will be empty after I pay you? (Or another, what prophet did Israel listen to?In the desert they died, Moses they wanted to stone, maybe David and Solomon, but after that man, God’s wrath.) Isaiah, Zechariah, and so on. Israel has paid is still paying the bank account.)Is Israel done being paid or is there bank account empty?
What are the prereqs if you will to be the Messiah?
A king from the line of David.
Jesus was not a king, nor from the line of David. (Now the Jesus I’m not to sure about. But I know for certain the Hebrew Yahusha is in the line of David is the King, my King, and he has the Spirit of God. But Id imagine anyone who knows God before the the world existed would trust him with every step he took. But that kind of faith has never existed before the Messiah came)
“That we can connect on that level. Remember that prophetic messages are not context but spiritual discerned. ”
Just for you not to be able to check if any actually really happened? How convenient! 2 (Chronicles 2 18 vs 21 I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets” They spoke victory,but what happened without spiritual discernment? also in Ezekiel 2 vs 2-2 As he (spoke), The Spirit came (Into me) and raised me to my feet, and I heard him speaking to me. And again Zechariah 4 vs 6 Not by might nor power, but by Spirit says the Lord almighty. God is spirit not flesh… Spiritual discernment is critical for understanding. )
Before you worship another god, I would suggest for you to have serious prove that he is what he said he is. Spiritual things that nobody can see are no sufficient for me to worship another god. Especially when the warning against doing such a blasphemy against G-d are so clear!
(I have proof. He struck the world with the rod of his mouth, and did judged by worldly influences. Thus he was the Messiah to come.
My King is humble in nature, loving in spirit, and gave his life to people who wouldn’t believe him even if he was raised from the dead. I believe that God loves the whole world and saw that Israel broke the covenant and knew that people would continuously break his law.
Mercy and grace was provided;as it is written he was ransom for many.)
I’d be weary for your soul. Pray that your heart isn’t hardened. Remember (every) Prophet that was sent in the name of God was persecuted.
Hi Aaron,
This thread is becoming unwieldy because you are grappling with too many concepts at once. I would like to get back to the basics and discuss one issue at a time if you are amenable to that.
You are claiming that Jesus is God. The Jew says that such a belief is idolatry according to God. Who’s right?
Well, what does God say about this issue? Before ever a word of the Bible was written down, God spoke to the entire people of Israel at Sinai. During this great revelation never seen before or since, God Himself taught His people Whom they are to worship and whom they may never worship or risk committing the gravest sin against God.
Read Deuteronomy 4, in which Moses reminds the Jewish people that they heard only a voice but saw no image or form and thus they must not ever worship any type of image or form in the whole host of heaven or on earth, even the form of a male or female.
In short, we are only to worship God according to the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. Anything else is idolatry. God did not teach us about Jesus and a trinity at Sinai; ergo, worship of these entities is idolatry.
Furthermore, Deuteronomy 13 teaches us that we must not listen to a man who can produce a sign yet tells us to worship a god that our fathers did not know. Jesus is a god our fathers did not know; ergo, worship of Jesus is idolatry.
Every passage in the Torah that deals with the subject of idolatry is very clear: worship God and God alone for He is the sole Creator of the universe Who took us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah at Mount Sinai.
I hope this clarifies for you why Jews recoil from the idea of worshiping Jesus, God forbid.
Hello Dina,
We are in agreement that idolatry is a sin.
We also agree that there is only 1 God.
We also agree that a Messiah will come.
We also agree that there no savior but God himself.
Thus I believe that there no separation of God and the messiah.
But you are claiming that human body can not be dictated by God.
But I tell you that a Human body can have the Spirit of God dictating him and thus be God.
We have a soul, and God who is spirit can put his words on our tongue i.e. the prophets.
We are made in the image of God. Thus humans souls are in the body. The body itself is our test that holds are souls in which is the Image of God.
We walked with God in the garden of Eden. but One Man broke the covenant.
Therefore I believe God can inherit a Body, atone and be ransom for many(isaiah 53)
What does the old testament say about the Messiah?
A servant, a child born of a women, a covenant for the gentiles, only speaks what God puts in his mouth, a new covenant, will write his laws on people hearts.
What atones for a broken covenant = for a new covenant= a sacrifice.
Aaron
Sorry to interrupt but I don’t believe I have ever heard your belief put quite this way.
“But I tell you that a Human body can have the Spirit of God dictating him and thus be God.” If I may ask is this just a personal belief or what religion are you that teaches this?
Hi Aaron,
Your beliefs directly contradict the Torah’s teachings (read Deuteronomy 4 and 13). If the Torah is true, then your beliefs are false.
Deuteronomy 4 teaches against associating God with any form, human or animal. Deuteronomy 13 teaches us to reject anyone who introduces a new type of worship. How do you reconcile this with your belief that God is the Messiah? The Torah teaches this nowhere.
It’s clear and it’s simple.
“But you are claiming that human body can not be dictated by God.
But I tell you that a Human body can have the Spirit of God dictating him and thus be God.
We have a soul, and God who is spirit can put his words on our tongue i.e. the prophets.”
so you are saying that an invisible god became visible flesh and human soul?
or do you believe your god possessed flesh like evil spirits possessed human bodies?
was it a possession or was it a becoming something that god was not before?
what exactly do you believe? if god became a human soul was god confined to his created flesh body? or was he in the sun and giving light through the heavenly body? if yes, then worship the sun because it is guiding you in the morning.
did god possess a human mind or did it become a human mind?
what is it that you believe? did god have mood swings? if you god is possessing, then there really isn’t any dilution or mixture of two natures, if there isn’t and god is not effected by anything infinite, then did god really become a man?
Zachariah 6:12: This refers to Joshua the High Priest: upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH
Genesis: A scepter refers to someone ruling, as far as I know, Jesus ruled nothing.
Micah(5 vs 2-5) Again, this talks about a ruler. This again would be a second-coming prophecy. Can you please provide one prophecy that he actually fulfilled?
“I know for certain the Hebrew Yahusha is in the line of David is the King”
First let us look at Matthew’s genealogy found in Matthew 1
https://www.biblegateway.com…… 1
And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
First Matthew’s genealogy is useless. The whole Genealogies go through the father. Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus. Thus, his genealogy does not count. As an example, if the High Priest would have had adopted a son, this son would not have been able to serve in the temple. So the whole genealogy is useless.
” And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.”
Furthermore, the lineage goes to a curse person:
Jeremiah 22:29-30
Is this man Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O land, land, land, hear the word of the LORD! This is what the LORD says: “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.
Second Luke’s genealogy:
https://www.biblegateway.com…… 3
First, this is not Mary’s genealogy. This an attempt to justify the contradiction between the two genealogies. But let us say that it is really Mary’s genealogy.
Mary’s genealogy is useless as well. The lineage must come from the father side. For example, if Aaron would have had daughters, their sons could not have serve in the Temple as the High Priest.
Furthermore, the line of the messiah must come from Solomon, not Nathan.
1 Chronicles 29:1 “Then King David said to the whole assembly: “My son Solomon, the one whom God has chosen”
Finally. Both Lines have Zerubbabel and Shealtiel
Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud (Matthew)
the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri (Luke)
Zerubbabel could have had 2 sons and one would have been the father of Joseph and the other the father of Mary. Shealtiel must have only one father. Sometimes, that person can have 2 names, but the rest of the genealogy must stay the same. Because of that, it is another contradiction in the genealogy. Furthermore, that would not “by-pass” the curse, if we still talk about the son of Jehoiachin (Jeconiah).
For that reason, Jesus is not a descendant of King David and could not be the messiah.
“They spoke victory”
You speak victory against sins, when you trust in a man, not in G-d… You are still committing the sin of idolatry.
“I have proof.” WHERE?
“He struck the world with the rod of his mouth”
I see that, everybody with tamper do that, Jesus was not the first who got a fit.
“Israel broke the covenant ”
By worshipping another god like Jesus, they would break the commandment.
“I’d be weary for your soul.”
Don’t worry, I check and rechecked every prophecies and found none sufficient. Jesus is not in the Hebrew Bible and you are worshipping another god.
They worshiped the LORD, but they also served their own gods in accordance with the customs of the nations from which they had been brought. 1 Kings 17:33
Remember, it’s easy to fall in idolatry. Jesus was not a prophet because no prophet required to be worshipped. Your Yeshua is nothing more than a man, and praying to the dead is forbidden by the Torah.
Also there is a 15-generation discrepancy between the 2 genealogies. Assuming a generation is 20 years, that gives us a gap of 300 years.
I don’t mind that much that Matthew skipped a few genealogies, but don’t say “So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.” if you do so.
I don’t know the timeline of what was written when but didn’t Paul speak of ‘useless genealogies’. If so, I wonder if this is what he wrote about.
Paul sounds pretty crafty to me. He likely knew the genealogies would be problematic so he forestalled the problem by telling everyone not to pay attention to them.
LarryB
Have you ever heard phrase?” God manifested in the flesh?” Type it in google I’m sure something might come up.
My statement: (Isaiah 49 6)” i will also make you light for the Gentiles, that (you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth).”
Your statement: -Did you mean for this to be a quote from Isaiah 49:6?
Yes Larry.
.
Aaron
Yes I have heard God manifested in the flesh that why I asked the question. God dictating the flesh is completely different than God manifesting the flesh, and never have I heard anyone say this or compare/explain them to be the same thing. Is this a personal belief or what religion teaches this so I can go and get a better understanding since blogs can only go so far.
Aaron,
I appreciate the sincerity of your position. However, sincerity does not equal truth.
You have badly erred in your argument regarding the supposed divinity of the Messiah. This argument that God is the savior and the Messiah is the savior confuses two roles. The Messiah is a savior in the same vein that Moses or the judges were saviors. That is to say, they were used by God to bring about salvation for the Jewish people at various times, but they are not Israel’s real Savior—that is HaShem.
If you read more closely the prophecies concerning the Messiah, you will see that in fact he cannot be God. For one thing, he fears God. For another, the spirit of God “shall rest upon him.” Neither of these statements makes any sense if talking about God. Moreover, Christians usually take the one like a son of man from Daniel to be the Messiah. This would make God give authority to God, which is nonsense.
As Dina has pointed out, Torah makes it explicitly clear that God is one. He is not physical, nor is He to be associated with any physical thing. Read Deuteronomy 4 well, and you will see that Moshe emphasizes this point most strongly. He tells the Jewish people that they were shown no form so that they would not associate God with a physical object. And twice he states that God is alone, that there is none beside Him. There is no Jesus beside God.
I will also briefly note that Jesus was not even a prophet. He failed the tests of prophecy. He told the Pharisees that he would come back from the dead after three days. He made this a sign for them. But, as even the New Testament testifies, he never presented himself to them. It is doubtful that he rose at all. If you pay close attention to the New Testament, you will see that his supposed resurrection was not announced until 47 days later than he was to have risen, and he was nowhere to be found.
It is safe to say that one should not put his faith in Jesus. He was no prophet. He most certainly was not the Messiah. One day God will bring about the Messianic Age and put a son of David on the throne. But this Messiah will not be divine.
Jim
Hello Jim,
I respect your position. You describe me to be in error but I describe- that your heart is hardened.
My messiah Yahusha, said that he was 1 one in spirit and was led by the Spirit (my spirit will rest on him). For the servant spoken about in Isaiah 53 says he will bear peoples sin and be a ransom for many hence being divine in nature with the Father’s spirit to be a guilt offering. Consider this, We as people can’t bear our own guilt and let alone manage our own sinful nature. It is written, that He will bring salvation to the Gentiles. But God says there is no Savior apart of me. Therefore to bring salvation to the Gentiles, God would have to be a part of that. That being said, with any saving activity, we can conclude that God will be apart of and be the Savior.
Fearing God clearing means that you are obedient. That in itself is describing that nature of the Messiah.
Moses was not innocent and tried to avoid saving God’s people. Then after that, God’s people rejected him several times. In addition, he never entered the promise land.
The servant described in Isaiah 53- is to speak no deceit, to bear sins (atone for) and bring salvation and be ransom for many. (Remember-Apart from me there is no Salvation). Therefore God is 1 with the servant. God is the only one who atones for sins.
Think of a of marriage ( 2 will be 1 flesh. and Think about David and Nathan, it says that he loved him so much that he was 1 in spirit.). Thus 2 can be 1 in flesh and 1 in spirit.
Hosea 6 speaks of a 3 day redemption. My Messiah brought a 3 day redemption so that we could be in Gods present anywhere in the world. A temple is made by human hands and God doesn’t want animal sacrifices. (Hosea 6- I desire mercy and not sacrifice.)
The Messiah is a savior thus apart of God,and that day has come.
I won’t speak for Jim But the remark, “You describe me to be in error but I describe- that your heart is hardened.”, is disingenuous in the extreme. I doubt you even “Know” Jim.
What I say is you are closed minded to anything that doesn’t comport with a preconceived opinion. You have been unable to counter any of the arguments presented and have been evasive to any of those arguments. But this is nothing new in Xtian circles.
Sharbano: what is your argument? What are the qualities of the Messiah?
I posted the link to my elucidation of Isaiah 53 and you ignored it. All you have posted is mere ramblings.
Aaron,
The difference between me saying that you are in error and you saying that I am hard-hearted is that the former is demonstrable and the latter is not. You may recall that God told Samuel that only God sees the heart. This therefore you are not able to judge. But when I say that you are in error, I am only addressing your arguments, which any who read these pages can see.
And the errors there are glaring.
You write that Jesus was led by the spirit. (Forgive me for not adopting the fashionable names by which he is now called. Each messianic group seems to have their own variation; it is simpler for me to just call him “Jesus”.) It is obvious that God does not need to be led by the spirit. Therefore, Jesus is not God.
You write that fearing God means that one is obedient. It is obvious then that the Messiah cannot be God, because God does not obey Himself. It is meaningless to say that God obeys Himself. Therefore, the Messiah is not God.
If you assert that Jesus is the Messiah, you must agree that he is not God. If he is God, then he is not the Messiah.
When you make a comparison to a marriage, this has nothing to do with the nature of God. This is a justification for your belief that is disallowed by scripture. Deuteronomy 4 states twice that there is none beside God. According to Exodus 20 one should worship no other being alongside God. Besides, your examples of marriage and friendship do not show what you would like them to show. They are clearly metaphors as a husband and wife are literally two, and so were David and Nathan.
But let us consider a marriage further. In Jeremiah, God is described as a husband to Israel. I am certain you know that there are only two in a marriage. If, therefore, the Jewish people (or any people, non-Jews like myself included) worship another being, such as Jesus, it is spiritual adultery. There is no room for a third party in a relationship with God.
Jim
Jim-
I appreciate your argument but could you also address Isaiah 53 and how you read it. Or better yet, every time Isaiah speaks about the servant, could you address why certain qualities are placed on this servant that only God alone could hold.
Aaron, before you go to Isaiah 53 (which I have discussed with Christians at great length), can you reconcile Deuteronomy 4 and 13 with your beliefs? I have taken the time to explain to you why the Jews can never see worship of Jesus as anything other than idolatry, but you have not responded directly to that.
But, Aaron, if you really want to understand why we reject your understanding of Isaiah 53, go the link posted below, which has over a thousand comments. Read the post and the comments. There are many lengthy threads there, one of which is between a fellow named Eric and me.
Take your time. It’s a long discussion.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/isaiah-53-micah-7-and-isaiah-62/
Aaron,
The problem I have with discussing Isaiah 53 is that to come to the Christian understanding, one must first skip the basics. Before getting to Isaiah 53, one must understand Torah. Then, as far as Isaiah goes, 52 chapters appear before Isaiah 53, only a few verses of which stand out to the Church. If you take note, you will see that the Church almost always quotes Isaiah 7:14 without 7:15, though the two are linked. In fact, they seldom talk about the rest of Isaiah 7 altogether except in an apologetic manner, revolving the rest of the chapter around 7:14. This gives a skewed reading and it is the problem of discussing Isaiah 53, which is removed from the rest of Isaiah, except as I say a few odd verses. And it is removed from the context of the Torah that long preceded Isaiah.
One brief comment on Isaiah 53 is that it belies that the servant is divine. If you make the servant divine, then you have God rewarding Himself. This is an absurdity. The servant is clearly not divine. This should not even need to be said, however, inasmuch as God cannot be His own servant. God does not serve Himself. This too is an absurdity.
The best reading I get from Isaiah 53 is that it refers to Israel, and you can find links to R’ Blumenthal’s pieces on Isaiah 53 readily (other than the page we are already on). I suspect you take the idea that no deceit was found in his mouth as proof that the servant is God. But if you consider Zephaniah 3:13 you will read: “The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down with no one to cause them to shudder.” This trait that might have seemed to belong only to God is in fact attributed to Israel.
If you wish to discuss a trait of the servant that seems to be divine, I will not say “no”. Put one out there and we can discuss it. However, it might be better to return to Torah first, understanding Deuteronomy 4 as Dina points out, before pressing on to a decontextualized prophecy.
Jim
Aaron,
You write: “We as people can’t bear our own guilt and let alone manage our own sinful nature.” I do not know what you mean by “bear our own guilt”. People often feel overwhelmed by their own wrongdoing. They might feel hopeless, but they must not. Think on the words of Ezekiel:
“Now you, son of man, say to the house of Israel: So have you spoken, saying: For our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and because of them we are melting away, so how can we live? Say to them: As I live, says the Lord God: I do not wish for the death of the wicked, but for the wicked to repent of his way so that he may live. Repent, repent of your evil ways, for why should you die, O house of Israel!” (33:10-11).
God gives the answer to those overwhelmed by their misdeeds: repent! The passage has none of the hopelessness the Church has taught. It does not say that one cannot manage his “sinful nature”. To the contrary, it commands one to do so. It gives hope to the sinner, not through a human-divine sacrifice, but through personal responsibility. Read the chapter and see how he urges those who sin to make restitution for their wrongdoing. And he says that they will be counted as righteous, because though once they were wicked, they have now repented and on the day they will be counted as righteous: “And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness and performs justice and righteousness, he shall live because of them” (v. 19). This is not the hopeless proposition that the Church has taught you.
I am sorry that the Church has misled you as it has so many throughout history. But you should know that you can repent of your wicked deeds and no one has to die on your behalf. You should know that you are not hopelessly saddled with a sin nature, forever like Paul making excuses for doing the things you will not to do.
You will sometimes hear from those in the Church that if you say that God cannot become a human, then you are limiting God. On the contrary, it is the Church that foreshortens God’s arm, for they say He cannot forgive unless some blood is handy. But God needs nothing. He needs no blood to forgive you. He only asks that you repent. This will be difficult as long as you feel helpless before a “sinful nature.”
Jim
Speaking of guilt.
For some time I’ve been contemplating the idea of Xtianity and guilt. As a result I have come to the conclusion, and have mentioned it before, that Xtianity is a method to absolve a person OF that guilt. If a person is absolved, at least in their own mind, of that guilt, then there is such a relief that the person will feel a sense of exuberance. And This, I find, is what many many Xtians exhibit. Thus, they can claim a miraculous changing of the heart by such a religion. Once that is accomplished there is a necessity for one to confirm this transformation by any means possible. Hence, the search for the proof to substantiate this claim. I see the reason for this continuation of proving is due to the fact the guilt isn’t fully assuaged.
Judaism, on the other hand, is based upon Torah and in that, it is dependent upon deeds. Therefore the two simply cannot coalesce.
“My messiah Yahusha, said that he was 1 one in spirit and was led by the Spirit (my spirit will rest on him).”
you are wrong. the spirit is more powerful than the person of jesus according to the gospel of mark. the spirit does not “lead” jesus according to mark but “drives” him into the wilderness.
check out the word in greek
it is the same word used for driving out evil ones
it is matthew who corrects mark and seems to portray jesus as using the spirit as some sort of satellite navigation system, but in mark it is the satellite navigation system/spirit who seems to be in control of the person of the son and has powers the son lacks.
jesus was chucked around/cast out by the spirit, according to mark, not according to matthew.
god feared god?
fear [feer] Spell Syllables Examples Word Origin noun 1. a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
WHAT would a godman be AFRAID of? if a god man DOESN’T break a law what is there to fear? or maybe he will break gods law? judaism says that the messiah WILL BE A SINNER and not FREE from sin . so god fears gods wrath? so god man fears gods wrath? so “god man” who utters blasphemy ” i and my father are one” fears gods wrath/punishment?
same mind which has access to the mind which has ability to apply his wrath fears the same mind?
the mind of this person,what part of it was afraid of its own wrath.
what in the UNSEEN god fear god? Fear is unseen and so was jezoz’ mind so what in your gods mind feared God? why does a God need to fear about breaking his law when he set himself not to break the law? So what part of your gods mind FEARED His own wrath?
Aaron,
While thinking about the basics, I thought to return to a theme discussed many times in the comments section of this blog, Deuteronomy 13.
Dina and I have already brought up Deuteronomy 4. There we get the definition for how Israel is to understand God. He is incorporeal and He is alone. This was to be the testimony of the nation of priests that God blessed the rest of the world with, Israel, the light to the nations, His witnesses and servant.
If we consider Deuteronomy 13, we will see that if a person does miracles but teaches a God unknown to the Jewish people, he is not a prophet of God. Now, if Jesus did claim to be God, then this conflicts the God that Israel knew as outlined in Deuteronomy 4. This contradiction cannot be reconciled by saying that Jesus claimed to be the same God or was the Angel of the Lord or some such thing. The Jewish people were told how to know God and Jesus was not it. So, if he claimed to be God, then he was a false prophet, and it does not matter if the walked on water or out of the grave. He is not to be heeded.
Jim
Dina, Jim, and Sharbano I enjoy peoples interpretation of it.
Let go verbatim with the
(Word of God) Isaiah 53
53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
(This servant had no beauty)
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
(wow he was despised)
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
( Why did we assume he was afflicted?)
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(Awe I see it for our transgression, and our peace was laid upon him, and his stripes have healed us.)
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
( we all have sin, so God laid on him the sins of us all)
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
(He went willingly and did not say a word)
53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
( He must have died for the transgression for God’s people)
53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
( He did nothing wrong but but was placed with the sinful)
53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
( It pleased the Lord?????? Soul an offering for sin? See his Seed? then the Lord shall prosper in his hand??
53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
( My servant will justify many, and shall bear their iniquities)
53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(He made intercession for the transgressors)
Glory To his Servant Yahusha for making intercession for my sins. I have accepted his message and believe in the arm that has been revealed.
First of all; “For whom has the arm of Hashem been revealed”
Exodus 6:6 “….I will redeem you with an outstretched arm”
Deuteronomy 4:34; 6:15; 7:19:9:29:11:2;26:8 “…and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm”
1Kings 8:42 “…shall hear of your great name, and of your strong hand, and of your stretched out arm”
2Kings 17:36 “…brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm”
Isaiah 51:9 “…O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the days of old, in the generations of Rahab”
Isaiah 52:10 “The Lord has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations..”
So, to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed to. You need to understand that the prophets were many times just reiterating Torah. You’ll find Torah is the foundation. Therefore, before any analysis can be made a person must First understand Torah.
What Isaiah is describing is the perceptions of the people of the nations, the Gentiles. You begin BEFORE you even have the context of what follows.
“Behold my servant will suceed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty. Just as multitudes were astonished over you, saying His appearance is too marred to be a man’s, and his visage to be human, so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouth in amazement, for they will see that which had never been told to them, and they will perceive things they had never heard. ”
After This introduction it is the Gentiles who have come to a realization and describing what has transpired on the many generations of Jews BY those same Gentiles and what THEY inflicted upon the Jewish nation, how they were treated, how they perceived them etc. It is the describing of generations of anti-Semitism perpetrated by the nations.
These people indict themselves for afflicting pains that the nation carried and asserted throughout generations that Jews were afflicted and stricken by G-d. Xtianity has taught for centuries this mantra.
Furthermore you are using a distorted text which has a convoluted reading. The grammar doesn’t correspond to your version.
I used a Jewish bible from people just like yourself who don’t believe in My messiah- That is how it was read. What bible version would you like me to use, chose at least 3 versions so that we can examine Isaiah 53 again? Because the Jewish Bible I used was pretty simple to break down. The people who wrote the new testament were all Jewish. Hence is why; when they kill Christians in the middle east they call them the Nazarenes. Lets just put it like this, for as many verses as you can try to deny Christ. I can match you. Yahusha who is Hebrew changed the world, and that is why people who follow him will always be a snare to those who are Jewish that reject him.
Isaiah 65;1
“I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
To think Israel has been in bondage this long, and they are still encamped on all sides by people who want them dead. The only people that support Israels existence outside of the Jews are people that believe in My Lord Yahusha who said Salvation is from the Jews.
And they all will turn against Israel, when the messiah, who you will think is the anti-christ, comes into picture. And all nations will come against Israel and only Jerusalem will be left. Then, as in the days of Hezekiah, G-d will protect Jerusalem and all the nations of the earth (Isaiah 52:10) will see the arm of the L-rd. They will say “Who has believed what we have heard, our fathers, really inherited lies!
There is an inherent difficulty when using any translation. From the different ones I’ve seen the Artscroll Tanach is one of the better ones. But even that one does have some issues. As with any translation there has to be liberties taken in order to make the words flow. Some Xtian versions took this to the extreme. Because there was a religious belief the text was influenced accordingly. I’ve always wondered why Xtians never consider learning Hebrew. Even some of the most notable apologists don’t bother learning Hebrew.
There is no scripture that would prove your messianic conception. Xtianity has to use only those references that are vague in nature and assign a meaning by injecting words that are not there.
Aaron, you wrote: “Lets just put it like this, for as many verses as you can try to deny Christ. I can match you.”
But you have not matched Deuteronomy 4 and 13. You want to talk only about Isaiah 53, which does not teach that God is the Messiah and that the Messiah must be worshiped as God–a teaching that the 2 chapters in Deuteronomy that I cited warn against.
Furthermore, Isaiah 53 does not teach that Jesus is the Messiah and that you must believe in the Messiah in order to atone for your sins, a notion that Ezekiel 18 and 33 roundly refute.
So what are you going to do about that?
Also, Aaron, I addressed your arguments on Isaiah 53 in the comment section of the article that I posted. Did you read it? It would save a lot of time for both of us so we don’t need to rehash all the arguments.
The Real Messianic, Dina and Sharbano. I appreciate your responses. In my book, everybody does turn away from Israel. But also talks about 1 new man. The gentiles and Jews who believe in the Messiah will come together to be Gods creation to go against Satan army. Then the Messiah will come again or as you say will come and destroy them. And Sharbano I would love to learn Hebrew and be Hebrew as My messiah is Hebrew. Lastly, Dina when I get home from school I will answer your questions. Many have posed statements to my statements, so its hard to keep up with all of them.
God bless you
Aaron
You claim to be able to “match” any verse – its not a matter of matching verses its a matter of trying to understand what the Author of the Bible intended
Try these for size
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/1000-verses/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/use-and-abuse-of-the-scriptural-texts/
The anti-christ, as per the non testament, will be claiming to be the messiah. First he wont come in the clouds of heaven and second, he will deny Jesus. He will require everybody to worship Hashem without your Yeshua. Those would be “jews who are not and are of the synagogue of satan” and of Satan’s army. Then that will make you so mad that you will go against him and fight him for your right to worship your Yeshua will blind you. In the end, Jerusalem will be saved, and then you will realize that Yeshua was nothing more than a lie and that the anti-christ you were fighting was all-in-all the true messiah…
“Satan’s army”?? Where does That come from. What you are insinuating is that those Jews who keep Torah aren’t part of G-d’s plan. This is ludicrous. This is the problem with Xtianity. They seem to believe there are no righteous Jews.
How can you even “Know” what scripture is teaching when you are unable to understand, or even read the text. I do believe there are online courses in learning Hebrew. Only then will you be able to “fully” understand the text in a comprehensive manner. There is much that simply doesn’t translate to another language. In order to do a realistic translation the Torah would have to be many more volumes.
Yourphariseefriend: What version of the bible did you use?
The RealM: My Yahusha is the King of Israel that will come down from the clouds. The antichrist is spoken in great detail in my book. As far as credibility is concerned, I’m sure that God who forms the soul within a person, would be God everyone not just the Jews. Hence is why he given us the same chance that you received to repent and realize the Commandments only made us conscious of sin. Furthermore, In the middle of time he give us all a chance to turn from our evil ways through the acknowledgment of Yahusha his servant.
Sharbano: Its simple. My book instructs that God gave grace through his servant because we are all sinful and 1 not person is sinless. The acknowledgment of his Servant will bring life to mortal bodies at the day of Resurrection. Christ has resurrected and will resurrected those who believed in his message. Glory to him is forever praised. Amen
What book is this that you speak of.
The non-testament 🙂
Aaron I use the original Hebrew
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Sorry, I am not Jewish. G-d is the God of all the earth, but Jesus is a dead man, a new god (Deut 32), a god that were not asked to worship. The commandments were created for us to follow them, not as a curse.
But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? Ezekiel 18.
I went in detail on that subject on this debate. Read it… It has both side and you will be able to have a better idea of what I believe.
https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com/2016/03/10/judaism-vs-christianity-part-1/
https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/judaism-vs-christianity-part-2/
TheRealM: What version of the Bible do you use?
I usually read the Stone Tanakh. I have a JPS with Hebrew (Not that I read it thought) and online I use chabad, blueletter Bible to see the original Hebrew and concordance and Bible Hub to see all different translations.
Thanks Real Messianic
YeshaYahu 53 (Chabad.org)
Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
(Same message)
2And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
( Had no beauty)
3Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
( He was despised)
4Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
( He Bore our Illnesses)
5But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
( He took our punishment)
6We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
( WE all have fell short)
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
( He didn’t complain about his punishment or cry out)
8From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
( He took the transgression of God’s people)
9And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
( He was innocent)
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.
( God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand)
11From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
( Once again, My Servant vindicated many as bore peoples sins)
12Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
(Poured out his soul to death, took our sins, and intercedes for many)
Real Messianic; do you disagree with my translation of (Isaiah 53). If you do, please put the verse as I have done and translate it as I have done.
You’ve made NO argument for your position.
Was your man one who was of pains and accustomed to illness. What illnesses did he bear. What account of being plagued did he suffer.
When was he ‘crushed’. Apparently the crucifixion and resurrection mean nothing because the healing comes from only being wounded.
Your analysis is shallow indeed. You have dissected verses with a word or two and applied them to a situation with no comparison.
Sharbano…. I took Gods word. I translated each paragraph. lol. Please translate it Sharbano so that you might have any credit. Your opinion of me is useless.
You should then be able to counter what I stated. You only took a word here and there and applied a situation that doesn’t correspond.
Tell me the version of the bible you use. Then translate it. If you don’t use a bible and you can’t provide a translation… what authority do you have. I used A jewish bible and translated it. Step.1 What bible do you use? Step 2 provide out of the bible that you use the (Word of God) Isaiah 53. And then Translate each paragraph, Outside of that means nothing.
I already had given you that in the link I posted.
I suggest you begin your reading from the start of chapter 52. Only then will you know the context of the text. Surely you know Isaiah didn’t write in a chapter and verse form.
Also read All of chapter 53, when it says.
“Hashem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of Hashem would succeed in his hand.”
Obviously the character that is spoken of here did NOT accomplish his purpose. The desire of Hashem did not succeed. He would see offspring and live long days. Certainly your man did accomplish THIS.
You cannot stop there. Where it starts in chapter 52 it continues into chapter 54.
Who is the Destitute woman of Isaiah 53 The WAY?
Aaron, what about Deuteronomy 4 and 13, eh?
Also, what about the link I posted with my discussion of Isaiah 53?
I think it’s a good translation (I am not Hebrew, but those who did were and they were not bias)
But I don’t agree with your conclusion that it represent Yeshua.
What version of the Bible are using Sharbano?
Aaron,
In response to your comments here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/#comment-26237
Because of restraints on my time, I will have to break up my response into pieces and post them as I am able.
First, let me begin by expressing my deep disappointment. You have steadfastly refused to acknowledge the direct teaching of Torah that contradicts the Church’s ‘interpretation’ of Isaiah 53. You attempt to use this one chapter out of context to establish a fundamental doctrine when it is clear that you do not understand even the basics of Torah. Yet you are going to teach us what Torah means. I cannot see what would qualify you to expound the teachings of the prophets as long as you deny the basic tenets of Torah. And your insistence that we rip Isaiah 53 from the rest of Tanach and consider it in the light of the New Testament is an injustice to the text.
I am further disappointed that you have made no argument regarding the text. You just rip the page of Isaiah about in our faces and make insinuations. Parenthetical comments such as “The servant had no beauty” are not an argument of any sort. If you expect that we should cease placing our trust in HaShem and instead put it in a man, you should be able to articulate an argument. For too long the Church has relied upon the ignorance of the potential convert, persuading them with guilt and innuendo rather than careful study of Tanach. If you wish to have a conversation about Isaiah 53, the least you could do is actually discuss it, rather than hoping that one chapter out-of-context will convert us all without any effort on your part.
However, in the spirit of truth, I will respond to your comments. Because you are disinterested in learning Torah, I will not expound to you the meaning of Isaiah 53 as I understand it. Moreover, I am no teacher, and others have already done a far better job than I could hope to do. (If you really “enjoy peoples [sic] interpretation of it” then you should read what R’ Blumenthal has to say on the matter, rather than commenting without reading his explanation.) But I will respond to how this is clearly not talking about Jesus.
The first thing I will note, and you may believe I am being petty, is that this is not a verbatim quote of Isaiah 53. It is a translation, and any translation deviates from the original in some way, sometimes small and sometimes large. If you wished to quote Isaiah verbatim, you would have had to quote the Hebrew. This point is not as petty as it seems, because you imply that one will be unable to deal with the real words of the prophet, words you do not even understand.
Your first two comments relate to descriptions of the servant that are not in any way applicable to Jesus. You note that the servant has no beauty. There is no reason to believe that Jesus was an ugly man. Not one person in the NT is horrified at the gruesome visage of Jesus. Not one person is afraid to be healed by his gnarled hand. This prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus. He is not the servant.
Then you note: “wow he was despised”. This is also inapplicable to Jesus. He was not a poorly esteemed person. Crowds of people followed him. At the age of twelve, he is supposed to have impressed religious leaders with his profound Torah knowledge. (Obviously, I do not believe this happened; there is no reason to believe it did. But this is what the NT claims about him, which goes to show that by the NT, one cannot claim he was despised.) Jesus attracted great crowds. According to the NT people hailed him as he came in to Jerusalem. All of this belies the notion that Jesus was despised.
Of course, according to the NT, he was also hated by the Jewish leadership. But this is not what it means to be despised. He was not lightly esteemed. He was resented, supposedly. They feared his influence. People are supposed to have marveled at his teaching, saying that he taught with authority, unlike the Pharisees. To be despised does not mean to be hated or resented. It means to be thought little of. The testimony of your books does not allow Jesus to be despised. He is not overlooked. He is not despised. He is feared and resented, which are totally different reactions than holding one in low esteem.
From the very opening of the chapter, your comments have brought our attention to the fact that Jesus is not the servant. He does not fit the profile of even the first three verses. One can see why this chapter appeals to the ignorant. Hearing it in isolation without a chance for analysis, one might think that it sounds vaguely like Jesus. After 2,000 years of Church propaganda the association with Isaiah 53 and Jesus is bound to be in the minds of many. But if one pays but a little attention, it becomes obvious that Isaiah 53 cannot be written about Jesus. If the Church did not read the chapter in isolation, it too would have seen the obvious to which you have drawn our attention.
Jim
I used the Chabad to translate Isaiah 53. What version of the bible is used on that link? I’d rather read it for myself. The reason is; if 99 out of 100 version of the Jewish bible say the exact same thing as the old testament Christian bibles. It is really hard to dispute anything I just said about the servant spoken about in Isaiah 53. I take the only Authority Man has which is given by God, and translate it verse by verse.
Yahusha is the servant who had not beauty that would attract us to him, who was despised by the elders as my messiah said (Don’t judge on mere appearance but judge correctly), who often withdrew to lonely places, he bore our illnesses and healed us, he was innocent of the charges against him, he was crushed for sins (Crucified), and it pleased God to have this happen, but those who accepted him as a sin offering, he became a ransom for many and interceded for the transgressors. Lastly his Soul will see light of life, and Gods plan will prosper in his Hand. Through his stripes we are healed.
Who has believed our message, who has the arm of God been revealed. Glory to him who is Forever Praised.
The reason you have a distorted perception is due to the grammar of the text.
Maybe if you knew the history of the Jewish nation these past two millennium you could more easily see and understand how this is speaking of the Jewish people. Just re-read Isaiah 52,53, and 54 in total. It’s a complete narration.
OR, is it that you would prefer not to have to actually study in order to gain knowledge and understanding.
You keep ignoring everything that is said that is directly contradictory to your perception and instead keep reiterating the same old lines, including the twisting of the words that change the actual wording.
By the way “crushed” is NOT crucified.
What Bible do you use?!
The translation is irrelevant in the case you are trying to make. Even if we accepted the translation of Isaiah 53 of your choice, it still would eliminate Jesus as the “Servant” spoken of in that chapter. Personally I use the JPS Tanakh and the Etz Chaim Torah translations, but that doesn’t make any difference. Your argument does not even work using the KJV or the NASB.
Tanach; And you’re still evading the subject.
Use the original Hebrew. If you don’t speak it like me… try any version and when something pops out, you go look at the word in blueletterbible and compare with other passages that uses the same word. That’s what you should do.
Aaron,
You must be careful in your reading of the prophet. You wrote that the elders despised Jesus. Now, obviously I have argued against this, and your rebuttal is nothing more than insistence that they did despise him. This is not a counter-argument. Forgive a comment that might appear rude, but your answer is no better than putting your fingers in your ears and saying, “nuh uh”. Mere insistence is not a demonstration that your belief is correct.
But worse, you have unintentionally altered the meaning of the prophet. He writes that the servant would be rejected by men, not the elders. That is to say he would be widely despised. Jesus was quite popular if one trusts the NT accounts. To fit him into Isaiah you have subtly shifted the despisers from men in general to a specific few leaders. This was not Isaiah’s prophecy, however. Since Jesus does not fit the prophecy, you have subtly, and I am sure unintentionally, rewritten it. But though I believe this rewriting was unintentional, it does show a lack of studiousness on your part and betrays your agenda to find Jesus in the prophecy no matter what.
Now, as I have pointed out, to despise someone means to hold him or her in low esteem, to hold him or her in contempt. You have stated that the elders despised Jesus. I wonder how you can say this when the situation is clearly opposite. By the gospel accounts, he despised them and taught others to do so as well. The elders feared him because he undermined their power. You actually have things backwards.
It is not hard to find evidence that Jesus held the elders in contempt, that he, in fact, despised them. The NT drips with such contempt, and Jesus is the chief despiser. In Matthew 5:20, Jesus unnecessarily and publicly insults the Pharisees: “For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” In Matthew 23, Jesus calls the Pharisees hypocrites who ostentatiously perform their rituals to impress others. As he excoriates them, he says: “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross the sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves” (vv. 13-15). He goes on to call them blind fools. (Aaron, do you recall what Jesus said about one who called his brother a fool?) As he continues to attack them, he says even more hateful things: “Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar” (vv. 33-35). Not only does he insult the elders, he will hold them responsible for the murder of Abel, who long predates the Jewish people. It is clear that he despises the elders.
It is clear that Jesus was not by the NT account despised of men. It is not even true that he was despised of the Jewish leadership. Rather he despised them, and he publicly humiliated them. But even if the elders did despise Jesus, he was not widely despised as Isaiah writes about the servant. In fact, he was widely acclaimed. People came to him for healing and more importantly for his wisdom, according to the gospels. This is not a despised figure.
Jim
Tanakh has the same message. Now ill address 52,53,54 with this book. Verse by Verse. Posted below is from the Tanakh!!!
53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
( He had no beauty)
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
( Nobody liked him)
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
(He took our griefs, and carried our pain)
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(We are healed because took our punishment)
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(We all have sinned, and God laid our sins on Him)
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
( He didn’t complain about the punishment that we put on him.
53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
(He was put to death for our transgression)
53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
( He was treated as a criminal but he was innocent)
53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(His soul was an offering for sin, but He shall see his SEED, as it was it God will,to see him crushed so that God’s will shall prosper in his Hand)
53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
(His servant shall justify me, and took upon my sins)
53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
( I have accepted his Message, and understand the arm that has been revealed therefore he intercedes for me as a sinner.)
Thank your Father for mercy offered by your Servant who is my Lord who bore my sins.
Because I know, apart from you there is no Savior. Thus He is apart of you!
Now the spirit will guide me through 52,and 54.
AE,
Your logic concerning the Messiah being a savior, meaning that he must be God, is flawed. There are men who are called saviors. Othniel and Ehud are both called saviors in Judges 3, verses 9 and 15 respectively. The author certainly does not mean to say that they are divine. You are working from incorrect assumptions, which is why you should not tear a page out of Tanach here and a sentence there to erect your theology. You must first understand Torah before understanding Isaiah.
But there is another problem. I cannot recall any place where the Messiah is called a savior and certainly not in the Christian sense. If he is called a savior, there would be no reason to see him different than Ehud or Othniel or others who saved Israel. Perhaps you can direct me to a passage where the Messiah is called a savior, especially in the Christian sense.
Jim
You are doing the SAME thing. You take ONE word out and create a theology from that. Show us in YOUR scriptures where each and every sentence in 53 is stated.
It doesn’t work when you say crushed means crucified. The two aren’t even close in comparison.
The truth of the matter is that an honest person could just as easily say that the book of Esther’s Haman “foreshadowed” Jesus as much as any other part or character of Tanakh did.
Haman wanted to eliminate Judaism: Paul said that Jesus was to replace Torah, destroying Judaism as they knew it.
Haman expected to be worshiped, and scorned those who would not: foreshadowing John 3:16-18, and calling anyone who did not believe Jesus was the christ was “the Antichrist”.
Haman had the respect of some high leaders but not others: Foreshadowed Jesus’ affection for Nicodemus, but hatred of Caiaphas.
Haman had no respect for authority: foreshadowing Jesus’ disrespect for the leaders.
Haman was “hung on a tree” ,foreshadowing the crucifixion.
The Jewish people surviving Haman’s plans foreshadowed Judaism surviving Jesus’ plans.
See how easy that is?
Types and shadows. Works for me.
Fred: Ill entertain your ( how easy that is?)
Yahusha came as a servant.
Haman was an adviser for the King.
Yahusha came to fulfill the Law, and be a light to those in darkness, and washed his disciples feet..
Haman was Hitler and wanted to destroy the Jews
Now Mordicai was a servant of God.
John 3:16-18
Talks about Love, salvation, and condemnation for those who don’t believe in God’s chosen One.
God himself said in the covenant that was broken, that the elders and teachers were leading the people astray, and were holding human taught traditions. Hence is why, He brought them prophets but they never listened.
Yahusha was praised for his miracles, love for the poor and needy, and taught against hypocrisy.
Haman was a person who had authority by a ring given to him.
Yahusha never had authority or wanted to kill the Jews but rejected their ignorance.
He changed the world as a Hebrew Savior.
The messiah was crucified by Rome.
Haman created his own destruction.
My Lord, is forever Praised by humans on Earth. And sits at the Right hand of the Father.
Lastly, Haman has been forgot about.
No commonality what soever, except that Fred thinks so.
There are probably even MORE issues with your god-man when comparing scripture. As was previously mentioned; he wasn’t plagued with illnesses, live a long life, or have offspring.
Also where do you come up with the notion of “were holding human taught traditions”.
Xtians consistently bring up that the covenant was broken. Well, what about Xtianity and the history that is perpetrated on the Jewish nation and even on other non-believers. They weren’t much different from Islamists in killing the unbeliever. I would say the church’s hand is much much more bloodier than what happened in Jewish history.
As far as Jewish history. Not 1 word in the New testament even utters your claim to bloodshed. Come on Sharbano give us substance. Islam actually states that Christians and the Jews are infidels that should be killed. Does the Tanakh say the Covenant was broken??? I’m sure you know that answer. Look around at the world; his offspring are following Him 2000 years later( so yes he sees his offspring. That why you have debates today. Humans murder not by the Word Of God written in My book. You should read it sometime. Oh by the way, in my book, All Hebrew.
Believers are not Jesus’s “offspring”. That is another desperate attempt to paint Jesus into Isaiah 53. Isaiah is talking about literal offspring and literal long life. Jesus had neither, according to the NT.
Fred you don’t read the NT. The NT says Yahusha raised was from the dead. So Fred can you read Isaiah Literally, or in context , should we Understand that every word given by God is spiritually given. For example, what is a Day to God? A literal day, a context situation, or does God have a human mind. Hmmm. Yahusha has seen his offspring. We are his Seed, and have been paid in full for our debts. Who can bear someones sins? Who is the servant Fred?
Do you know what the word “seed” Means. The Hebrew word Zera means offspring, plant, kernel, sowing-time, sperm, semen. Again followers are not Seed.
Aaron How do you expect others to listen to you if you are not willing to listen to others. I have control of this blog and I am seriously thinking of blocking you. I will give you one chance to remain in this conversation. God reveals His arm in Isaiah 52:10 – on whose behalf? Please answer that question. After you do that I suggest you try to find someone to translate the original Hebrew to you for Isaiah 53:1
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Are you denying the church and Xtianity killed millions upon millions of Jews.
What offspring. Followers are NOT the same as offspring.
My oh my you really ARE twisting words.
Mr/Ms AE;
I was an associate pastor, preacher and Christian writer ( several published articles and two books) for years before converting to Judaism because of my love for truth and my spiritual connection to the Jewish people. I know the NT inside and out. You assume too much.
(Lastly, Haman has been forgot about. )
Oh really, Ever heard of Purim.
Yep, next Wednesday! My daughter is excited and has already baked a big batch of Hamantaschen.
I just go to the local market and buy them.
https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com/2016/03/01/types-and-shadows/
>>>>>No commonality what soever, except that Fred thinks so.<<<<<
Precisely! Now apply that about yourself reading Jesus into the Tanakh where it is obviously speaking of someone else.
BTW, Haman was hung by a pagan government, just like Jesus was. its as good a type/antitype as anything you can come up with for Jesus.
As for the others, Christianity has sought the destruction of the Jewish people and Judaism since day one. because they have switched from physical destruction to spiritual destruction does not mean the goal has changed. Christians would have every Jew give up their faith and convert to Christianity. Every Christian would like to see Judaism abolished permanently. That is EXACTLY what Haman wanted, and it was his indignation toward Mordechai's lack of worship toward him that spured Haman on.
Oh, and Haman wore a three sided hat, which symbolized the trinity. Another type fulfilled by Christianity.
Name 1 verse that supports your case in the New Testament in Killing the Jews. The writers were all Jewish.
Your man DID say, in Luke I believe, to bring those who won’t be subjects to bring them and slay them in front of him.
>>>>>Your man DID say, in Luke I believe, to bring those who won’t be subjects to bring them and slay them in front of him.<<<
BOOM!
You really have no idea who the writers were. You are assuming the writers are the traditionally accepted names. Historical evidence, theology, 1st century understanding, etc. and literary form suggests otherwise. If Jews wrote the NT, they were very uneducated Jews who knew nothing about the Torah/Tanakh. Your entire paradigm is built on assumptions you accept without proof. I guess that is faith, but it is a willfully blind faith.
Aaron,
Continuing my response to your comments here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/#comment-26237
Before I can continue on with your comments, I must comment on Isaiah’s words. Isaiah 53:3 says that the servant is “a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid our faces from him; he was despised and we esteemed him not.” Jesus does not fit this profile. Jesus was not a man of sorrows or acquainted with grief. Being called a man of sorrows does not mean that one had a horrible death. A man of sorrows is one with a long life of suffering. Jesus did not have a long life of suffering.
It is clear in Isaiah that he is not relating one event in the life of the servant. The servant is a man of constant sorrow from whom the speakers turn their face. This turning of the face is to look away from his suffering apathetically. It is to show him no pity, to never aid this suffering person. The speakers in Isaiah 53 are confessing to their own wrongdoing. And how did they justify their neglect to the suffering of their fellow humans, the servant? They considered that for the servant to suffer so, he must have been punished by God.
But they were wrong to neglect the servant. They paid no heed to the servant’s suffering, because they considered him to live under God’s curse and because he was seemingly unimportant. But now they realize the servant suffered because of them. The servant has had a life of prolonged suffering which nobody attempted to ease. They called it a punishment from God. But they should not have ignored it, because it related directly to them. And they are shocked: “Who hath believed our report?”
None of this applies to Jesus. According to your interpretation, the Jewish people would be saying this about Jesus. But Jesus did not live a seemingly cursed life. He had a terrible last couple of days that the Jewish people are supposed to have caused. In that case, they could not call him afflicted. They were not standing idly by at his death. According to Matthew, they were calling for it, accepting the guilt of his death upon their heads eternally. They are the persecutors. They are the affliction. To make the servant Jesus is to attempt to make a square peg fit into a square hole or to make three equal one. It does not fit.
Jim
yourphariseefriend:
I apologize if I have offended anyone…Have you considered what has been said to me. But yet you threaten to block me. What is it that I have said, that you disapprove of? I will not respond to anyone until you tell me of this. But also match what has been written to me to give a correct judgement of my responses. Before I respond to all questions that have been addressed (who do think I should start with first, give me the order). I’d like you to let me know, so that I play within the rules of the Debate, and what has crossed line. To my defense, I don’t think anybody has acknowledged that I used every version that have said to be the right one. I guess the Chabad online nor the Tanakh were adequate translations. What translation provided in this whole world gives an adequate translation from Hebrew to English; There must be at least five versions that you can name off that I can research per your recommendation.
Last point, I go read and test everything to check the validity of source. The bible takes precedent over all. I accept peoples given translation, as I give translations. The subject is Isaiah 53 and you claiming that he isn’t the Christ.
Aaron Finally – someone got your attention You didn’t offend anyone – you just don’t seem to acknowledge what other people are saying – You respond to every argument with the same reposting of your interpretation of a chapter in Isaiah. You didn’t even address the point of the post – “Isaiah 53 teaches that Jesus is NOT the Messiah” – read the post and try to respond – not by saying the same thing again but by indicating that you heard what I wrote. You keep on bringing up the question of translation as if it were relevant to the discussion. We are not disagreeing with you because we don’t like your translation of the Bible. We gave you many reasons why you disagree with you and this blog has hundreds of posts explaining our position – are you capable of hearing another opinion? And you say that the Bible is your authority – you lie/ The Bible consists of many chapters which you completely ignore. You never ask the Bible which chapters are central and set the tone for the rest of the Bible. You never ask who and what is the central story of the Bible You never asked who is the Bible’s intended audience. But even if there was only one chapter in the Bible and that was Isaiah 53 I would still know without a doubt that Jesus is not the suffering servant of the Lord
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
I, for one, am not and have not been offended.
Most Jews read and understand the original Hebrew and this is the basis of understanding. Many times a direct translation simply cannot convey the full essence of the text. Hebrew is a language unlike any other.
I’m sure most of us have the assumption you have not read what has been written. I gave the link to an elucidation I did on the text which took a great deal of time to compose. Your analysis, translation notwithstanding, only used a word or two and said that applied to your man. Of course THAT is the methodology employed in the Xtian text. It would seem that Xtianity rises or falls on this particular chapter of Isaiah. If G-d’s purpose was to have THIS chapter of such importance to the theology of Xtianity G-d would have used phraseology employed elsewhere when Mashiach IS spoken of.
Where Xtianity fails is not taking into account Every Word of Tanach. As it is written in Amos. “For the Lord Hashem/Elokim will not do anything unless He has revealed His secret to His servants the prophets”. No one can read that chapter in Isaiah and conclude it reveals a Xtian version. For one thing the text refers to a plurality of persons, not a single individual.
Furthermore, one cannot replace the words which the text uses. Tanach speaks of prophets being killed and those references are not ambiguous. Why would Now G-d use ambiguity to speak of a new religion. This would be a violation of what Amos had written.
If a person is to understand scripture than a complete knowledge of the entirety of Tanach is required. Otherwise a person will not be able to realize what he does not know, or, will be unaware of a conflicting idea. It goes without saying that Talmud exemplifies this principle. This is how the Jewish people approach the text. If a new idea were presented it would be debated to the fullest extent in order to arrive at the correct conclusion. Therefore, if you are to present an idea you will have to conclusively prove the point. It has to be true from every angle and not just on the surface. Of course this is made more difficult when a Xtian doesn’t have the command of the Hebrew language. Sometimes it is necessary to refer to the original in order to fully understand the point.
Needless to say the Xtian is at a distinct disadvantage because of all this and no doubt futility sets in.
– you just don’t seem to acknowledge what other people are saying – (I’ve responded to peoples opinions and gave reasons for my choice words, but they have yet to state why my verse by verse translation is not correct). You respond to every argument with the same reposting of your interpretation of a chapter in Isaiah (The is due to the fact that I used every version that the person deemed to be that right one, and there no consensus as to which Bible is supposed to be use as Authority). You didn’t even address the point of the post – “Isaiah 53 teaches that Jesus is NOT the Messiah” (If you claim I’m not reading that right version, how could we begin the discussion)- (the simple response to me will be, your version is not correct, Ok, I used your version) – read the post and try to respond – We are not disagreeing with you because we don’t like your translation of the Bible. – are you capable of hearing another opinion ( When people say you are not correct it is easy for to me to say your not correct) And you say that the Bible is your authority – you lie/ The Bible consists of many chapters which you completely ignore (I lie is a bold statement, I would address the other scriptures but we can’t agree that the -( The Suffering Servant bore sins of the people, was crushed for the peoples sins, it was Gods will,and he shall his offspring). You never ask the Bible which chapters are central and set the tone for the rest of the Bible. You never ask who and what is the central story of the Bible You never asked who is the Bible’s intended audience.( To that my response would be God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and despite who might or might of have the intended; there is only 1 God who created them male and female, and his Words bring life). But even if there was only one chapter in the Bible and that was Isaiah 53 I would still know without a doubt that Jesus is not the suffering servant of the Lord ( I disagree as millions of others would, furthermore the Bible states otherwise). My messiah even quotes Isaiah 53, so the Jewish Scholars empowered by God spirit who wrote my book would disagree as well. In fact, not 1 original writer of both books wrote these words without God giving them the words first.
Where does it say in the Xtian text that he was crushed in payment for sin.
Once again he had no offspring, nor lived a long life. It is THIS that Hashem declares he will succeed. Your man did not succeed in this.
You keep implying that you are expounding the text but that isn’t so. One of your responses is “he had no beauty”. That is NOT a definitive answer. It is circular reasoning. You believe he is you messiah and this text is supposed to be about a messiah therefore it is about him. That is NOT elucidation.
Notice what and how the text reads.
“Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment who could have imagined such a generation?”
Your messiah wasn’t released from captivity and judgment. Tanach speaks elsewhere regarding captivity and being restored. Read Jeremiah
“For behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah.”
Isaiah is speaking about the restoration FROM that captivity. Read chapter 52.
After that it speaks about “who could have imagined such a generation”. A generation is NOT a single person. And It is even MORE clarified in the next verse.
“For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon THEM that was my people’s sin”.
It is the kings (referenced earlier) that are saying THEY sinned in doing what they did.
The Gentile nations, including Xtians, inflicted everything from hardship to murder upon the Jewish nation. My family came from the Ukraine and I can tell you about the atrocities at the hands of Russian pogroms, by Xtians. Your messiah had no affliction. What he suffered was an execution.
Now, are you going to ignore this also as has consistently been done.
The Lord has made bare His holy arm
In the eyes of all the nations;
(Not the Jewish People, the nations are christian and muslim right now!)
And all the ends of the earth shall see
The salvation of our God.
(Toward the Jewish People)
11 Depart! Depart! Go out from there,
Touch no unclean thing;
(Depart from your exile and go back to Israel)
Go out from the midst of her,
Be clean,
You who bear the vessels of the Lord.
(ISRAEL, the Levites)
12 For you shall not go out with haste,
Nor go by flight;
For the Lord will go before you,
(God will bring you back to your land)
And the God of Israel will be your rear guard.
13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently;
He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
(Never happened with Jesus)
14 Just as many were astonished at you,
So His visage was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men;
15 So shall He sprinkle many nations.
Kings shall shut their mouths at Him;
(Of the nations who will see the arm of the L-rd, AKA, Christian and Muslim nations)
For what had not been told them they shall see,
(That Jesus was nothing and Israel was right all the time)
And what they had not heard they shall consider.
(Maybe one day TW)
1Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
(The nations who saw the arm of the L-rd will say that)
2And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
(Crowds were following Jesus man! that does not fit at all!, Jews were despised sins even before your antisemetic Non Testament)
3Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
(Of course that fits Jesus, and he was ill all his life! Show me the verse!)
4Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
(G-d chastised Israel, read Isaiah 24, etc. And again, won’t you say that the 2 temple was destroyed because we rejected your Yeshua?yet we, gentiles, accounted him, the Jews, as plagued )
5But he was pained because of our transgressions
(Even if G-d used the nations to chastise Israel, they went too much and Israel paid the double for all their sins! ISAIAH 40:2)
, crushed because of our iniquities
(Gentiles persecuting the jews and thinking it was God’s punishment.)
; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
(because of the chastisement, Israel turned to the L-rd and inquired for peace… The messiah will bring peace in the whole world)
We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
(Israel’s prayer)
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth;
(Jesus opened his mouth on his trial)
like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken
, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
(righteous Israel fell like the rest because of the sins of the wicked:
You removed him who rejoiced and worked righteousness, those who mentioned You in Your ways; behold, when You became wroth for we had sinned; through them, of old, we would be saved. ISAIAH 64:4)
9And he gave his grave to the wicked
(Jesus was with the rich)
, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death
(jesus was with the wicked)
, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
(Jesus deceived people to worship a false god)
10And the Lord wished to crush him
(Jeremiah 30:11 Jeremiah 13:9)
, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution,
(Isaiah 59:20)
he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.
(Israel did retun to the land, have literal children)
11From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My reighteous servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
(the iniquity of the nations, as a priest too all the nations)
12Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public
(never happened to Jesus, he only showed himself to the 12 (including Judas I guess))
, and with the strong he shall share plunder
(On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. And Israel will get the plunders) (Zechariah 12:3)
, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
“Sing, O barren,
You who have not borne!
Break forth into singing, and cry aloud,
You who have not labored with child!
For more are the children of the desolate (ISRAEL)
Than the children of the married woman (GENTILES),” says the Lord.
For you shall expand to the right and to the left,
And your descendants (SEED OF ISAIAH 53:11) will inherit the nations, (who HE plunder)
And make the desolate cities inhabited.
“Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed;
Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame;
For you will forget the shame of your youth, (When G-d wrath was on them… see ISaiah 53:10)
“For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, (Plural.. same servant as Isaiah 52)
And their righteousness is from Me,” (see Isaiah 53:11 Righteous servant, is Israel who received righteousness from the L-rd)
Aaron Are you relying on scholars? On millions of people? or on the Bible? The Bible clearly says that the servant will be despised UNTIL his obvious exaltation to the eyes of all mankind – This cannot be Jesus who is no longer despised but no one sees his exaltation except in the eyes of those who believe the Christian Scriptures 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Yourpahriseefriend: Yes the Bible+wrote the words the Prophets= Given by God. So yes scholars. The followers of Christs are in the millions so yes they would also disagree with you.
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
( Yes we our his offspring- 2000 years later, Look around the world. It has been changed dramatically: South America, North America, parts of the Europe. Lastly people in the middle east who follow my Lord are being crucified because of him. Name 1 other Person who changed the gentiles perception and made them have a change of heart for Him 2000 years later.
Yes he is highly Exalted. No one did what He did.
You despise him, what are you talking about. Christians are consistently persecuted. The most persecuted religion in the world.
Aaron, you wrote: “You despise him, what are you talking about. Christians are consistently persecuted. The most persecuted religion in the world.”
I’m having a hard time understanding this sentence (actually, I find most of your writing hard to understand; you need to write more clearly.)
“You despise him”: who is “you” and who is “him”? It seemed at first that you were accusing Rabbi B. of despising Jesus (by the way, Jews don’t despise Jesus). Then you switched to the fairly new phenomenon of persecution of Christians. So are you saying Rabbi B. despises Christians and persecutes them? Can you explain please what you wrote here? And can you please explain why this is relevant to Isaiah 53? You seem to be conflating Jesus with his followers as the suffering servant. Are you saying that?
With over two billion adherents, the most of any religion in the world, Christianity is far from the most persecuted religion. Only a tiny fraction of its adherents suffer persecution. That’s a terrible thing but it doesn’t make Christianity the most persecuted religion in the world.
If you kept an eye on history and current events you would know that, tragically, the Jews take that prize.
In other news, Aaron, you have completely ignored all my arguments. They were not my opinion. I quoted Scripture flat out. What’s the point of having a conversation where you do all the talking and none of the listening? It’s very Christian of you, in the sense that Christians have been preaching at us for 2,000 years but refusing to actually hear us out.
You’re gotten yourself stuck on this translation thing and which version of the Bible each one of us is using (how about the original Hebrew, eh?), which somehow absolves you of any responsibility to answer our challenges.
Dina, I was replying to MyPharisefriend. But I will reply to you as well. Happy Sabbath.
I know you were replying to My Pharisee Friend, also known as Rabbi B. (Rabbi Blumenthal), and I wanted to understand what you said to him. However, a thoughtful response to my arguments will be appreciated, thank you.
I meant Your Pharisee Friend :).
You are claiming that Jesus is God. The Jew says that such a belief is idolatry according to God. Who’s right? (Correct! No salvation can be outside of God)
Well, what does God say about this issue? Before ever a word of the Bible was written down, God spoke to the entire people of Israel at Sinai. During this great revelation never seen before or since, God Himself taught His people Whom they are to worship and whom they may never worship or risk committing the gravest sin against God. (Correct)
Read Deuteronomy 4, in which Moses reminds the Jewish people that they heard only a voice but saw no image or form and thus they must not ever worship any type of image or form in the whole host of heaven or on earth, even the form of a male or female. (Correct)
In short, we are only to worship God according to the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. Anything else is idolatry. God did not teach us about Jesus and a trinity at Sinai; ergo, worship of these entities is idolatry.
(God also says that he is sending a Messiah or savior but then says (apart from me there is no salvation, but says his servant will bring salvation. So we don’t believe that Yahusha is apart from Yah but is Yah, the Immanuel (God with us), the servant who bore others sins, the servant brought a covenant to the gentiles, the one who made intercession for sinners, the who was pierced, the one who set his face like flint, and offered his back, face, and was accused by others but God was with him) The prophet Moses talked about. “No one does all this apart from God, thus the arm of God was revealed)
Furthermore, Deuteronomy 13 teaches us that we must not listen to a man who can produce a sign yet tells us to worship a god that our fathers did not know. Jesus is a god our fathers did not know; ergo, worship of Jesus is idolatry.
(YeshaYahu spoke of a Messiah to come so yes I highly doubt the fathers would know about a Messiah whom Isaiah spoke of because it was after there time)
Every passage in the Torah that deals with the subject of idolatry is very clear: worship God and God alone for He is the sole Creator of the universe Who took us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah at Mount Sinai.
I hope this clarifies for you why Jews recoil from the idea of worshiping Jesus, God forbid.
(Worshiping Someone who brings salvation, (Apart from God there is no salvation) Thus God alone brings salvation, so we worship God and only God who is Yahusha the servant who brought salvation covenant spoken about in Isaiah 41-on.)
Your beliefs directly contradict the Torah’s teachings (read Deuteronomy 4 and 13). If the Torah is true, then your beliefs are false.
Deuteronomy 4 teaches against associating God with any form, human or animal. Deuteronomy 13 teaches us to reject anyone who introduces a new type of worship. How do you reconcile this with your belief that God is the Messiah? The Torah teaches this nowhere.
(Moses also speaks about a Prophet to come. Isaiah clarifies the Messiah to come. Salvation is spoken about in Isaiah through a servant, but we know that God alone is the savior and redeemer, thus this servant is a part of God, the right arm, who makes intercessions for sinners, because we are all law breakers and no one has kept the Law of Moses. Thus we are given Mercy and salvation through God’s Servent who spoke no deceit but it was the will of God will to crush him.)
It’s clear and it’s simple.
• Aaron, before you go to Isaiah 53 (which I have discussed with Christians at great length), can you reconcile Deuteronomy 4 and 13 with your beliefs? I have taken the time to explain to you why the Jews can never see worship of Jesus as anything other than idolatry, but you have not responded directly to that.
( The Jews have been wrong about all the Prophets and thus were trying to kill them. For example, Elijah couldn’t take it anymore so God had to replace him. If they never accepted Gods word through the Prophets how much more the salvation of God who only spoke the words of God foretold by Moses, Clarified in Isaiah.
Dina says:
March 15, 2016 at 11:39 pm
But, Aaron, if you really want to understand why we reject your understanding of Isaiah 53, go the link posted below, which has over a thousand comments. Read the post and the comments. There are many lengthy threads there, one of which is between a fellow named Eric and me.
( I don’t care to go through others commentary with you because I believe the spirit of God will instruct me with all the questions you pose to me.
• Aaron, you wrote: “Lets just put it like this, for as many verses as you can try to deny Christ. I can match you.”
But you have not matched Deuteronomy 4 and 13. You want to talk only about Isaiah 53, which does not teach that God is the Messiah and that the Messiah must be worshiped as God–a teaching that the 2 chapters in Deuteronomy that I cited warn against.
Furthermore, Isaiah 53 does not teach that Jesus is the Messiah and that you must believe in the Messiah in order to atone for your sins, a notion that Ezekiel 18 and 33 roundly refute.
( How can the Servant spoken about in Isaiah 53 who is said to bear sins, atone for them and make intercession for sinners which is (Gods Word) be refuted with Gods word spoken about Ezekiel in 18 and 33. God isn’t not against himself. So either you believe this servant did bear peoples sins or you don’t. Either way Sins were placed on this Servant.)
Dina says:
March 16, 2016 at 1:51 pm
Also, Aaron, I addressed your arguments on Isaiah 53 in the comment section of the article that I posted. Did you read it? It would save a lot of time for both of us so we don’t need to rehash all the arguments.
(No I don’t read dialogue you had with someone else. I rather rehash it due to the fact that I’m not those people.)
• Dina says:
March 17, 2016 at 11:33 am
Also, what about the link I posted with my discussion of Isaiah 53? I don’t know what you discussed with others.
Aaron, you wrote: “You despise him, what are you talking about. Christians are consistently persecuted. The most persecuted religion in the world.”
(I know that my Messiah Says you either for him or against him. Type most persecuted religion in the world in google)
I’m having a hard time understanding this sentence (actually, I find most of your writing hard to understand; you need to write more clearly.)
(It would be hard to follow if the message was addressing someone else. That why I don’t want try understand your debate with someone else’s mind)
“You despise him”: who is “you” and who is “him”? It seemed at first that you were accusing Rabbi B. of despising Jesus (by the way, Jews don’t despise Jesus). Then you switched to the fairly new phenomenon of persecution of Christians. So are you saying Rabbi B. despises Christians and persecutes them? Can you explain please what you wrote here? And can you please explain why this is relevant to Isaiah 53? You seem to be conflating Jesus with his followers as the suffering servant. Are you saying that?
As I addressed that you was referred to another person.
( Yes I’m saying that Yahusha is the suffering servant who was cut off from the land of living that spoke no deceit. But God made sure he rose to see his offspring as he makes intercession for us.)
It’s very Christian of you, in the sense that Christians have been preaching at us for 2,000 years but refusing to actually hear us out.
(I’ve responded to everything you said. And wish to continue our conversation. As far as followers of the (The Way) preaching to you. That’s what our Jewish disciples were told to do. To spread the news of the new covenant. )
You’re gotten yourself stuck on this translation thing and which version of the Bible each one of us is using (how about the original Hebrew, eh?), which somehow absolves you of any responsibility to answer our challenges.
(As far stuck, I highly disagree. I was given the versions that the others said to be the correct Hebrew bible. So I use the Chabad online and the Tanakh. If you have another version let me know.)
I’m sure that the God who created us, did not say anywhere that we had to learn Hebrew to read the message of salvation.
You write a lot but give no specifics. I wonder why that is. I say it’s because your ideas cannot withstand the counter argument and will fail.
What evidence do you have that “No One” has kept the Torah of Moshe. It’s been done ever since Sinai. That’s an accusation with no proof. Isaac, for one, is one who never sinned.
“The Jews have been wrong about all the Prophets ”
It sounds to me like you are attempting to condemn ALL Jews. How typical of your religion.
“I don’t care to go through others commentary with you because I believe the spirit of God will instruct me with all the questions you pose to me.”
If this is the case then why can you not answer the counter-arguments. Is your “spirit” the SAME one that Stephen relied upon. If so we can conclude this spirit is wholly ignorant. Do you KNOW how many mistakes he made regarding Torah. And YOU want to rely on THIS spirit.
You say you don’t want to read other arguments. Obviously, if you did you would find that you cannot support your position. Xtians as you just look through Tanach for a single word or phrase and say, “Oh, this must be Jsus”, without ever trying to understand ANYTHING.
Once again you speak of offspring. Whom did Jsus have intercourse with. I guess you must believe that he had relations with someone. That is the ONLY way to have offspring.
Hi Aaron,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my arguments. I am busy this week and am not sure I will be able to respond this week, but will try to get back to you next week, God willing.
Aaron, I’m replying to your comment here:
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/#comment-26340
In your comment you quote me at length showing that Deuteronomy 4 precludes associating God with any form, and you agree with me. Then you proceed to contradict yourself by saying that God will send a redeemer who is a part of God. You justify this argument by saying that God says there is no savior apart from Him; God says He will send a savior; ergo, the savior God sends is God himself.
There are so many problems with this argument one hardly knows where to begin. First, please cite a source in the Hebrew Bible that teaches that God will send a Messiah-savior. This verse should identify the Messiah as such and call him a savior.
Second, what do you do with all the references to saviors who are obviously not God, such as in Obadiah 1:21, where God says He will send multiple saviors from Zion to judge the mountain of Esau (the word is plural in the Hebrew)? What about Judges 3:31 which proclaims that Shamgar saved Israel, or the same about David in 1 Samuel 23:5 and Saul in 1 Samuel 14:48? By your logic we must worship all of them as God, God forbid!
Third, just appealing to your reason here, does it make sense for God to split Himself up, send Himself, instruct Himself, and even promise rewards to Himself, as you would have it in Isaiah 53?
Fourth, why would God lie? He clearly teaches not to associate Himself with any form (Deuteronomy 4) and to put to death any prophet who teaches a type of worship unknown to our fathers (Jesus worship was unknown to our fathers) (Deuteronomy 13); then He would demand the opposite in the very hinted, veiled way you suggest as opposed to the clear and open teachings I cited? What you are doing is calling God a liar Who purposely confuses us, God forbid!
You then went on to quote me quoting Deuteronomy 13 and you can’t answer it. You dodge the issue by saying that the fathers couldn’t have known who the messiah would be. But Deuteronomy 13 isn’t about the identity of the Messiah. It’s about idol worship. And it clearly warns against a type of worship unknown to our fathers. Worship of the Messiah as a god was unknown to our fathers and expressly forbidden at Sinai.
You again repeated that worshiping someone who brings salvation is not idolatry because apart from God there is no salvation (a misquote, but never mind). That means you need to worship Moses, the Hasmoneans, anyone who brought salvation to the Jewish people. You seem not to realize that not only does the Torah not teach worship of human agents God sends to do His bidding but in the clearest terms forbids it.
In your comment to me you repeated a variation of your argument a third time. You say that Moses predicted a prophet, God predicted a Messiah–and since salvation is from God then these people are God. In your mind it’s the same person, but who’s to say the prophet Moses predicted is Jesus? The first prophet to follow Moses who fits that description is Joshua. Are all prophets God? God predicted a Messiah–Cyrus is called God’s Messiah (Isaiah 45:1); is he also God?
Amazingly, you bring as proof of the unreliability of the Jews concerning their prophets from their bad behavior recorded in their own scripture. Do you know why this is amazing? All Christians agree that before the advent of Christianity there was only one group of people who possessed the truth about God: the Jewish people. This is the same people spoken of by the prophets and the same people who canonized the prophets and you take their word for it that Isaiah, for example, was a true prophet. Suddenly, when Jesus comes along, all the Jews are all wrong! This is beside the fact that God proclaims that He placed his testimony in Israel and that even when we stray we will always guard that truth (Psalms 78). He promised that His words and His spirit would never depart from the Jewish people, ever (Isaiah 59:21).
You say you read the Bible. Cleary, you missed a lot of passages.
You refuse to read other arguments on this subject. I don’t understand your reasoning, so I’m not going to address it.
I challenged you to refute Deuteronomy 4 and 13. You did not, because you could not.
I challenged you to acknowledge that Isaiah 53 does not teach that Jesus specifically is the Messiah. You ignored the challenge.
I challenged you to acknowledge that Isaiah 53 does not teach that you must believe in the Messiah to obtain atonement for your sins. You ignored this challenge as well.
I challenged you to refute Ezekiel 18 and 33, which roundly dismiss the notion that someone could die for your sins and that teach us a clear and simple path to atonement that differs starkly from the Christian one. You refused to address this.
It would be kind of me to say that your position is weak. But I must tell the truth: you have no position at all.
Aaron Those who persecute Christians (Moslems) honor Jesus and Christianity has a long way to go before it can call itself the most persecuted religion in the world. How many world leaders are calling for the annihilation of Christians? How many books call Christians “children of the devil”?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
As one person was fond of saying, “You are writing in Xtianese”. This is the method whereby one takes a word with a known, understandable (by all) and inserts their own meaning to that word. Even though it has no correlation to the real meaning the writers of Xtianese redefine the word to suit their purpose.
THIS is what you are doing when you state “Yes we our his offspring – 2000 years later”. THIS is the definition of offspring – children or young of a particular parent or progenitor. If you Would be actual offspring you should be able to prove your lineage back to that time and to him.
Your thinking of the Flesh. I’m thinking in the Spirit. God is Spirit. How can someone cut off from the land of the living see his offspring that is clearly stated in Isaiah 53?
This is really cumbersome. WHAT is the criteria for this person to have a long life and see offspring.
By the way. Offspring IS flesh, and blood.
Aaron You are thinking of the flesh – your god was flesh and blood
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Sharbano: You are right in saying that we can’t agree. Israel is not the servant who will bring salvation. I can’t find anywhere in 1st book that would suggest that Israel would bring anyone salvation let alone save themselves. If anything, they are the example of what not do. No one else has shed a light on the way we used to live who had 40 pagans gods but the one who has risen Yahusha.
Israel IS the servant spoken of in 53 though. I don’t even know what you are talking about in the 1st book. You have created a non-sequitur.
Maybe not 40 idols but there is still three that remain, which WILL change as G-d says His Name will once again be ONE.
Then Sharbano, we no longer have a conversation. If you believe that Israel is Gods’s salvation to us. I imagine Dina and My pharisee friend believe the same?
Your god says “salvation is of the Jews”.
But I surmise that you want to end the conversation simply because you cannot rebut the counter arguments. This is because Jews read what the text says and don’t use exegesis interpretation.
AE (Aaron Eddington?)
I would say this. The Bible, My Bible, the Tanach, was written about Jews, by Jews and for Jews. For this reason is why Paul became so convoluted and had to distort Torah so much in order to come up with Paulinism.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
Aaron, responding to your comment https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/#comment-26352
You seem distressed that the servant in Isaiah could be Israel. How could bad, wicked Israel bring salvation to the world? Well, my friend, if you read Isaiah in its entirety you would see that the servant is identified as Israel/Jacob in the vast majority of cases. I find it particularly amusing that Christians want to make Isaiah 49 all about Jesus. Verse 3 identifies the servant as Israel and 8 says that God will make His servant into the “people of the covenant”–Jesus was not a people last time I checked.
And if you read all of Isaiah, you would see his prediction that one day, all the nations of the world will walk by our light (Isaiah 60:3). This will be accomplished when God saves the nation of Israel from her oppressors once and for all.
You would know this, if you really read the Bible as you claim to do.
I respect your opinion. Nothing history nor the mood of the of God throughout the Prophets would make you think that the Israelites would ever bring salvation to us. Yes salvation has came from the Jews, but the whole world turned towards Yahusha the Hebrew.
Just because a major part of the world (Not the whole) follows a false religion doesn’t make it right in G-d’s eyes.
G-d made certain promises to Israel, not the nations, and he has been fulfilling those promises. It will be culminated with the building of the Third Temple whereby Torah will be followed the same as it was in the beginning. It will all come back and THIS the nations will understand to be that Israel has been exonerated.
Sharbano-
Only a remnant will be saved and return. Isaiah 10:22 and Jeremiah 31:7.
In addition, The new covenant spoken about in Jeremiah 31 has come, I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; constitutes living by Faith. That started 1983 years ago.
As my Messiah said, To love God with all heart and soul, and your neighbor as your self- for this sums up the Law of prophets.
Sharbano:
You mention Paul… What do you disagree with?
Paul was a self-admitted liar who would say anything to gain converts.
who said christians are persecuted ? the un? who?
even the christians in the middle east do a lot of running around like your man god and then go to western countries and get police protection and social security benefits so what do you mean “persecuted” ?
second thing is that jesus , according to christian theology, willingly wants to do a ritual sacrifice for rapists, murderers, persecutors , homosexuals …
so if he willingly wants to do this then he willingly wants to get caught and beaten up to appease himself. so how do you fit this into is 53?
where does it say that the one who was wounded was slaughtered/murdered for the sins of the people? where do you see a ritual sacrifice/murder for sins in is 53?
(Robert2016) SIr:
What do you think (Caught off from the Land of the Living means?
he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Very Respectfully,
AE
((Robert2016) SIr:
What do you think (Caught off from the Land of the Living means?
he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.)
I had ALREADY dealt with this. The correct translation (to English) is
For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon (THEM) that was my people’s sin.
The Xtian nations, among others, has afflicted THEM ( Israel) for all these generations.
You ignore the subject when confronted with truth and accuracy.
So you believe that the servant spoken about all throughout Isaiah is Israel? You believe that Israel whom that time was at a horrible state with God brought salvation for the gentiles?
Chapter 52 SAYS it is about Israel, and, thus called the servant. It is exemplified by the statement, “an affliction upon THEM”.
Aaron Isaiah tellsus in teh name of God that Israel is a nation that guarded God’s faith and that all the nations will see her righteousness – Isaiah 26:2 and 62:2
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Aaron Isaiah tells us in the name of God that Israel is a nation that guarded God’s faith and that all the nations will see her righteousness – Isaiah 26:2 and 62:2
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
where are you tying his death or in your case your christian human sacrificial ritual/death of jesuz, to “he poured out his soul to death” means his death is ritual sacrifice for sins?
“Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.”
“poured our his soul to death” means death? your own man god says when he is still alive ” my soul is deeply troubled even unto death”
if you interpret the following
“you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power…”
to mean that your god will ride on clouds and crush his enemies
the question is
does the writer of is 53 want the persecuted to dream of crushing enemies or change hearts of the persecutors? does is 53 say that the persecuted said that he was equal to god himself?
Robert2016 Sir:
My point is that no one can bear anyone sins let alone their our own. Salvation or sin bearing, is a God type of activity. For the servant spoken about Isaiah 41- on- is supposed bring Salvation, bear sins, be covenant to the Gentiles, make intercession for sinners, basically do something that only God can do. With that said, for the servant to intercede to God for the sins of others must have the spirit of God to endure such suffering. Thus people who believe that Christ has are already come The Imanu’el ( God with us) spoken about in first chapters of Isaiah believe that he is the Servant who bore sins.
Yes those who believe in (The Way) believe in the the Hebrew God Yahusha who is one with father with no separation, will come back in the clouds, to gather from the 4 winds his faithful ones. Furthermore crush his enemies.
Funny you should mention chapter 41. Verse 8 identifies the servant by name, did you miss that?
Isaiah 41:8: “And you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.”
Can God be His own servant? How does that make any sense? How does it make sense for God to talk to Himself and tell Himself what powers He will bestow upon Himself and tell Himself what to do? Sounds a little schizophrenic to me.
Oh, and about your contention that no one can obtain forgiveness for their sins, you still need to read very slowly and carefully chapters 18 and 33 in Ezekiel which map out a path for our spiritual salvation through our own actions, which explicitly teach that through repentance our sins will be wiped away, not through a human blood sacrifice who somehow is also God at the same time.
You surely must see by now how very, very, very untenable your position is.
Aaron The priests bear the sins of Israel (Numbers 18:1 – see also Ezekiel 4:4) and as Israel is the priest of the world they bear the sins of the world. (Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 61:6)
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
yourphariseefriend:
Do you believe that Israel is the servant spoken about in Isaiah 40- on- is the promise to bring Salvation to the gentiles?
Aaron The servant of Isaiah is the righteous of Israel and if you would believe God you would see that too but because you believe flesh you are having some problems – I challenged you to ask yourself – for who is God’s arm revealed in 52:10? You avoided that question Now I ask you – who are God’s armor bearers in 52:11? Wouldn’t you think that if God is bringing salvation then His armor bearers ought to be working in His employ? But you will not answer this question either or will you?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Your word selection sounds quite Seventh-Day Adventist, Aaron.
Fred:
I just read the bible. I believe in my Messiah who is my Hebrew God and his holy word.
” For the servant spoken about Isaiah 41- on- is supposed bring Salvation, bear sins, be covenant to the Gentiles, make intercession for sinners, basically do something that only God can do.”
so your god bears sins of gentiles through a bloody human sacrificial ritual and make intercession for them.
okay
job = “blameless and upright”
job is bearing whose punishment in job 2:3? so is job god for bearing gods punishment?
” With that said, for the servant to intercede to God for the sins of others must have the spirit of God to endure such suffering.”
yeah like job did. read job 2:3
yourphariseefriend says:
March 20, 2016 at 6:13 am
Aaron The servant of Isaiah is the righteous of Israel and if you would believe God you would see that too but because you believe flesh you are having some problems – I challenged you to ask yourself – for who is God’s arm revealed in 52:10? You avoided that question Now I ask you – who are God’s armor bearers in 52:11? Wouldn’t you think that if God is bringing salvation then His armor bearers ought to be working in His employ? But you will not answer this question either or will you?
Yourpharissefriend:
I will go back through Isaiah 40 on- to illustrate that 52:10 is a prophetic Message of Christ. Much like when David said that God would not let his Holy 1 see decay. David died and buried, was but as for Christ no one can identify where His body is. Or better said, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.
Aaron Why don’t you answer my questions? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
yourphariseefriend:
I will address you only.
When the servant is spoken about in Isaiah: How many servants are addressed? We know Israel is one of them. But who does God also call his servant? Israel at that point needs to be rescued because they are far from God basically being punished for their iniquities (The first part of Isaiah describes their sins to be as red as scarlet). There is another servant addressed to bring Salvation to the ends of the earth and bring Jacob back to him. Who is this other servant? Once you answer this question I can answer Isaiah 52.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,And their righteousness is from Me,”
Says the Lord.” Isaiah 54:17. G-d’s righteous servant is Israel who was purified by G-d through tribulations and exiles, not by a man who died on a cross…
See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another. Isaiah 48
and by the way – we know where your god is buried 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
That is new to me, Rav B. Where?
Fred there is a tradition that he is buried somewhere in the Galilee – I wouldn’t rely on this tradition but it is far more reliable than any of theirs. In any case I think that Aaron needs a “wake up call” perhaps this will do it
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Today people heal in his name, cast out demons in his name, and speak in Tongues in his name. My God is alive and well.
Aaron I’ve seen Jesus cast out of people in the name of God 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Much of what you write is in broad generalities with few specifics such as here where it only stating a belief. The most definitive test is taking those references whereby it is clearly in reference to Mashiach and testing whether or not your man fits the criteria. If he doesn’t, we can conclude, definitively, that he is NOT Mashiach. What the Xtian text does is find vague, ambiguous references and “says” this is about messiah and therefore it applies to him. That is Not a method to come to the truth. It is a recipe for disaster.
“I will go back through Isaiah 40 on- to illustrate that 52:10 is a prophetic Message of Christ. Much like when David said that God would not let his Holy 1 see decay. David died and buried, was but as for Christ no one can identify where His body is. ”
can you identify the god you worship?
is it a unrecognisable person
a lamb
an angel
a gardener
a jew called jesus with holes in his hands and feet
?
quote:
Noteworthy is the case of Aristeas, a poet and wonder-worker of uncertain date, who, Herodotus tells us, went into a fuller’s shop at Proconnesus on the Propontis and there died. The fuller shut up his shop and went to tell the dead man’s kinsmen, but the report of the death of Aristeas, now noised through the city, was disputed by a man of Cyzicus, who had come from the seaport of Cyzicus and said that he had met Aristeas going toward the town and had spoken with him.
While he so spoke, the kinsmen of the dead man came to the fuller’s shop with all that was needful for the burial, but when the shop was opened no Aristeas was there, either dead or alive.
Seven years later Aristeas appeared at Proconnesus and made that poem which the Greeks later called the Arimaspea, after which he again vanished.
quote:
Zeus himself.
In the case of Zeus himself we learn that his tomb was exhibited at Cnossus in Crete — doubtless to the concern and confusion of some worshippers–, though he himself had become a god in heaven.
quote:
Then Heracles:
A different type of illustration is afforded by Heracles, whose sufferings and glorification after death have not infrequently been compared to those associated with Jesus. This comparison appears as early as Justin Martyr [see chapter 21 of 1st Apology], in the second century, and most recently by the German philologist Pfister, who suggests that the composer of the Urevangelium had before him a Cynic-Stoic biography of Heracles.
Diodorus [see chapter 38:4-5 of Book 4 of Diodorus] relates that the pyre which Heracles had ascended on Mt. Oeta was lighted by Philoctetes at his command but also by lightning which fell from heaven and wholly consumed it.
According to Servius, Heracles earnestly entreated Philoctetes not to show the remains of his body to anyone, and when the companions came to gather up the bones of the hero and found not a single bone anywhere, they assumed that, in accordance with the words of the oracle, he had passed from among men into the company of the gods.
This is a more rationalistic account than that of Apollodorus, in which, during the burning of the pyre, Heracles is wafted by a cloud to heaven, in a manner which some have thought suggestive of the description in the first chapter of Acts, where Jesus is taken up into heaven and received by a cloud out of the sight of the disciples. (pp. 30-31)
after reading these quotes can you tell why pagans believed their gods bodies disappeared and their gods face shifted like jesus and became someone else?
Saved from WHAT? Certainly those of Yeshu’s time weren’t saved.
You quote v12 and also, as others always do, that he would see his offspring and live a long life. Thirty something certainly is Not a long life.
Anything Paul had to say is irrelevant since he was an admitted liar. How can we believe anything he would say when calling himself a Pharisee and in the employ of Sadducees. He certainly didn’t know much Torah considering all the distortion he employed.
You’ve certainly PROVED beyond a shadow of a doubt your UTTER IGNORANCE by saying Talmud condones pedophilia. You are nothing but an anti-Semite. Clearly you haven’t studied a single word of Torah or Talmud but relied on internet propaganda against the Jews.
I don’t know what the Rabbi has in mind but YOU SHOULD BE FOREVER BANNED after making such false accusations. You are in the same vein as all the others who have committed blood libel against the Jews over the centuries.
For me, I WILL NOT READ any more of YOUR TRIPE. Your words have shown the kind of person YOU are and not worth paying ANY attention to. To put it bluntly, you are a DISGUSTING individual.
Sharbano, I also found his posts incoherent.
Sharbano-
If that was differed to me. What words offended you? I apologize if I did.
I simply said, in the most of 1st book of my bible, God was very angry with Israel.
Maybe your Bible says something different.
As far as name calling- I have not called you 1 bad name or anyone else for that matter.
As far as being against the Jews… I certainly wouldn’t say in the book of Isaiah God was happy with them. And that was the discussion.” I simply said,at that point in time Israel was far from God; if they weren’t in a good place how could they be the hope to save the gentiles.
false accusations??? What did I accuse you of?
As far as Paul is concerned. I believe that he spoke the truth. I don’t know where Paul talked bad about the Jews. If you could name a few instances. I’d gladly discuss them with you.
I didn’t get your reference at first but I think you are assuming my diatribe was against you. It was to a person whose posts have been deleted. He made the most vile comments about Jews and Talmud that I simply cannot hold back on. It was nothing less than pure anti-Semitic hatred. When it comes to something as that I Can get hostile.
Sharbano-
Agreed, That should never be tolerated.
As God said about his chosen people, those who bless you I will bless but those who curse you I will curse.
Certainly this is something that Xtians should take to heart and realize what G-D says on the matter. in Deuteronomy 11
“See, I present before you today a blessing and a curse. The blessing: that you hearken to the commandments of Hashem, your G-d, that I commanded you today. And the curse: if you do not hearken to the commandments of Hashem, your G-d, and you stray from the path that I commanded you today, to follow gods of others, that you did not know”.
We can conclude here that Xtianity was certainly NOT known when G-d says this. The idea of a trinity was not known and therefore applies here in Torah. It would be a curse to believe in such a thing.
It doesn’t end there. G-d doesn’t leave it to that generation but speaks of the end. Deuteronomy 30
“It will be that when all these things come upon you – the blessing and the curse that I have presented before you – then you will take it to your heart among all the nations where Hashem, your G-d, has dispersed you; and you will return unto Hashem, your G-d and listen to His voice, according to everything that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and soul. Then Hashem will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which Hashem, your G-d has scattered you…..Hashem, your G-d, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, to love Hashem, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live”.
This is a prophecy concerning the times of the end. We see hear there is a blessing and a curse. It is predicated upon keeping the Torah of Moshe and nothing else. Therefore the absolute worst thing a Xtian can do is “Convert” a Jew and relinquish the following of Torah. THIS is a curse, according to G-D’s WORD. So, one has to ask themselves. If they want to show blessings to Israel, how should it be done.
Sharbano, who do you say that Moshe also Professed to be the Prophet among their own:
Deut: 18:18
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Isaiah 11:4
(Clarifies a little bit to be the Root of Jesse.)
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the land;
And he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth,
And with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isaiah 45:11
Thus saith the LORD,
The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
Ask Me of the things that are to come;
Concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands, command ye Me.
(Apparently the Holy One of Israel has a Maker. But all through out Isaiah The holy one of Israel is God.)
Isaiah 49:2
And He hath made my mouth like a sharp sword,
In the shadow of His hand hath He hid me;
And He hath made me a polished shaft,
In His quiver hath He concealed me;
3And He said unto me: ‘Thou art My servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’
(So you might think it could be Israel that was made to have mouth like a sharpen sword)
But-
Isaiah 49:5
And now saith the LORD
That formed me from the womb to be His servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
And that Israel be gathered unto Him—
For I am honorable in the eyes of the LORD,
And my God is become my strength—
( How can Israel bring back Israel)
Isaiah 49:6
Yea, He saith: ‘It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the offspring of Israel;
I will also give thee for a light of the nations,
That My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.’
( We conclude that this is not Israel who will bring Salvation to the nations. but the Messiah to come)
Salvation has come from another Servant in this paragraph per JPS Tanakh 1917.
Two servants have been spoken about. Israel and a Messiah. That is why as Christians we see Yahusha the Hebrew as the Holy One of Israel, brought salvation to the ends of earth. We also believe he is the one God set apart, who suffered for our sins, and intercedes for us spoken about in Isaiah 53.
Last point, We call Yahusha the sword or the word, as we believe his mouth is a Double edged sword that pierces bone and marrow.
Aaron Why do you continue to avoid answering my questions? Is the truth too hard for you? – Fine – you are not alone but do not dare speak in the name of God’s prophets. Every point you raised has been addressed on this blog again and again Here are my questions to you in case you forgot The servant of Isaiah is the righteous of Israel and if you would believe God you would see that too but because you believe flesh you are having some problems – I challenged you to ask yourself – for who is God’s arm revealed in 52:10? You avoided that question Now I ask you – who are God’s armor bearers in 52:11? Wouldn’t you think that if God is bringing salvation then His armor bearers ought to be working in His employ? But you will not answer this question either or will you?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
What Moshe says of prophets could be anyone. There is a distinct difference between your man, the Xtian text, and what every person who speaks FOR G-d that is written in Tanach. Everyone of them, including Moshe, uses the phrase, “…and G-d said to me, saying”. Invariably they ARE speaking for G-d by using HIS Name. As it says there,
“…I will place My words in his mouth; He shall speak to them everything that I will command him”. Furthermore, “But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My Name, that which I have not commanded him to speak or who shall speak in the name of the gods of others – that prophet shall die”.
It goes on to give a test of that prophet, if his words do not come to pass. Your man made statements that his generation would see him return in his kingdom. THIS still has not come to pass.
Isaiah 11 is one of the few that actually does speak about Mashiach. This chapter is also conclusive evidence that Xtianity’s messiah is False.
As it says, “the wolf will live with the sheep…a suckling will play by a viper’s hole. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be as filled with the knowledge of Hashem as water covering the sea bed… It shall be on that day that the Lord will once again show His hand, to acquire the remnant of His people who will have remained. He will raise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel and He will gather in the dispersed one of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The jealousy of Ephraim shall stop and the oppressors of Judah shall be cut off. ”
As we can see here this most certainly did not happen. Therefore Xtianity is concluded to be false. Also note the “Oppressors” of Judah. Isn’t THIS, that which Isaiah 53 speaks of.
What is the point of Isaiah 45. Did you read the FIRST VERSE.
“Thus said Hashem to His Mashiach, to CYRUS. So what is your point.
Isaiah 49 is about Isaiah HIMSELF.
Sharbano, didn’t you used to be on Arutz Sheva’s old forum?
Why yes. It was a shame that was hacked and never reappeared. At the end I was deleting 30 or 40 accounts a day. It was being pummeled. One of the problems was the crude design of the forum. Once the administrator account was hacked they never bothered with it again.
Bummer. I thought that was a very informative forum. I believe I actually spoke to you on the phone once…in 2010.
>>>>>>As far as Paul is concerned. I believe that he spoke the truth. I don’t know where Paul talked bad about the Jews. If you could name a few instances. I’d gladly discuss them with you.<<<<
Paul himself said he had no problem lying in order to further the gospel.
Romans 3:7 "If my lie is spreading the truth of God why am I judged a sinner?"
Fred:
Paul said –
some might argue that if your evil agenda produces good results why I am condemned as a sinner?
Then says go on to say that no one is righteous before God as we all have sinned as we all have turned our own ways.
Romans 3:7
Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”
Do you have anything else concerning Paul?
Since you mention none righteous.
He argues there is no one righteous and apparently quotes Psalms 14. He gives a misleading account of what Psalm actually is speaking about.
He saying that no one is righteous. I have to agree that no one was righteous then and in this current age resembles the same.
Isaiah 64:6 reiterates this idea.
And we are all become as one that is unclean, And all our righteousness are as a polluted garment; And we all do fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Do you Really think your single verse quote supports your contention. I suggest you read from where this begins, which is chapter 63:7 to the end of 64, then tell me what its purpose is.
To understand righteousness read Kohelet 7. As with any understanding a person should rely on the declarative which is where clarity is found. As it is written there:
“Sometimes a righteous man perishes for all his righteousness, and sometimes a wicked man endures for all his wickedness. Do not be overly righteous….For there is no man so wholly righteous on earth that he always does good and never sins.”
Israel is also compared to lamb brought to the slaughter: “Yet you know me, LORD; you see me and test my thoughts about you. Drag them off like sheep to be butchered! Set them apart for the day of slaughter!” Jeremiah 12:3
Lift up your eyes and see Those who come from the north. Where is the flock that was given to you, Your beautiful sheep? Jeremiah 13:20… The shepherds are the kings of Judah and the sheep is his People.
G-d compares in Isaiah 53 the nation of Israel to a lamb, this fits with the description of Jeremiah who also compares Israel as Sheep.
yourphariseefriend:
I will address you only.
When the servant is spoken about in Isaiah: How many servants are addressed? We know Israel is one of them. But who does God also call his servant? Israel at that point needs to be rescued because they are far from God basically being punished for their iniquities (The first part of Isaiah describes their sins to be as red as scarlet). There is another servant addressed to bring Salvation to the ends of the earth and bring Jacob back to him. Who is this other servant? Once you answer this question I can answer Isaiah 52.
Aaron In 51:16 we see that Israel is commissioned to bring a message to Israel. As I explained in the article entitled “Armor Bearers” – Israel is always God’s servant – sometimes her king, Messiah and sometimes her prophet Isaiah and sometimes the righteous of Israel in general are singled out to do the work of the nation in a more concentrated way but it is always together with Israel never against Israel You can find the article by using the search option in the upper right corner
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/armor-bearers-isaiah-5211/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/the-blind-seer-isaiah-406/
Israel is not the only servant spoken about.
Isaiah 49:6
Yea, He saith: ‘It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the offspring of Israel;
I will also give thee for a light of the nations,
That My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.’
To bring back and restore Israel and that lead to bringing Gods salvation.
Israel can’t bring back Israel.
Why not, Aaron? Why can the righteous remnant of Israel not bring back the rest of the nation?
Dina
I believe that salvation is apart of God.
A messiah is a savior.
God is the redeemer and savior and there is nothing outside of him.
This Servant must be God because salvation only comes from God.
A righteous remnant will persevered by God bringing back Israel.
Israel is not God.
I’ve never seen So Many contradictions in one paragraph.
Aaron You believe despite the fact that the Bible testifies that your beliefs are false – when are you going to answer the questions that you said you would answer? just to remind > for who is God’s arm revealed in 52:10? You avoided that question Now > I ask you – who are God’s armor bearers in 52:11? Wouldn’t you think > that if God is bringing salvation then His armor bearers ought to be > working in His employ?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Aaron, did you bother reading a word of what I wrote? I took time out of a very busy day yesterday to write a thoughtful response to your post. I ask that you reciprocate in kind. Please consider my words carefully and write a rebuttal that shows you spent time thinking about it.
Thank you.
yourphariseefriend:
Let the Bible speak for itself- Not my word but His
Isaiah 49:6
Yea, He saith: ‘It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the offspring of Israel;
I will also give thee for a light of the nations,
That My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.’
(Salvation by the servant is bring back Israel.)
Isaiah 59:16
The Lord looked and was displeased
that there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.
17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
and the helmet of salvation on his head;
he put on the garments of vengeance
and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.
(He looked down and saw (No On)e, His own arm achieved salvation.)
Israel can’t bring back Israel. They need to be saved.
There is another servant whom God achieved by himself. The servant was himself. That answers 52:10- His own arm achieved salvation for him.
Gods very Being achieved it. The servant is God.”I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
God put on the helmet of salvation and came down here.
Every nation knows about the 1 Hebrew Yahusha that brought salvation.
Aaron You didn’t answer either question – I asked for who did God reveal His arm? who benefited? (Psalm 98:3 might help you). And I also asked who are the armor bearers fo the Lord mentioned in Isaiah 52:11. You did not answer any of these questions because you have no answer. And your statement about Israel not saving Israel is false as I demonstrated from 51:16 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Aaron,
Once again, you display the importance of not ripping a part of Tanach out of the whole work. As I was working through reading this weekend’s messages, I could hardly believe that you considered the child of Isaiah 7, Emmanuel, to be Jesus or whatever you call him. Even a passing reading of Isaiah 7 will show that Isaiah cannot be talking about Jesus. Emmanuel was dead hundreds of years before Jesus was born. Do not lose heart, however. The author of the Gospel of Matthew has misled you; it is not your fault.
I urge you to return to Isaiah 7 without having Matthew 1 in mind. After all, this is how the book was read and understood for hundreds of years. And you should ask what the chapter is about. It will become obvious as you read the chapter that it is not about the Messiah. Normally, I do not think it best to identify what a chapter is not about, but in this case, because of the misrepresentations of the Church, it is useful and necessary. The chapter is about two armies that are threatening Judah, and the Jewish king that does not wish to rely upon God. Isaiah tells King Ahaz that the threat of the armies will be turned back, that God has not abandoned Judah. This is what is happening in Isaiah 7. Compare it with the Messianic chapter Isaiah 2, and you will note a world of difference.
You will note also that Isaiah tells Ahaz to ask for a sign. Ahaz refuses, so Isaiah offers him a sign anyway. This sign is an indication that God will save Judah from the two encroaching armies. And the sign is that a young woman will have a child and she will name the child Emmanuel. Also, before the child knows to choose between good and evil, so while he is still young, the two kings of whom Ahaz is afraid will no longer be a threat. This second part, the two verses concerning the child that follow Isaiah 7:14 are not quoted by the author of Matthew. The reason why is because he cannot. They would reveal the context of the prophecy and would show that they apply in no way to Jesus. But you and I, we must take careful note of the prophet’s words. And we must in no way allow ourselves to misrepresent them or tolerate those that do.
This child, Emmanuel, was born before these kings were no longer a threat to Israel. As you know, they did not live 600 years and only turn back at the birth of Jesus. Obviously not. No, they were turned back during the life of Emmanuel, a male child born in the time of Isaiah and Ahaz. And before he reached maturity, the kings were turned back.
Sometimes Christians are misled by the name ‘Emmanuel’. They are confused as to the nature of the name. They believe that it indicates that the child would be divine. “God with us” they think to mean that God came down to be with people. The name means nothing of the sort. The name is an indication that “God is with us” in the sense that He had not abandoned the Jewish people. He is on their side, not physically dwelling with them. This latter explanation is the one that fits within the context of the chapter; the former does not. Moreover, it is not unusual for Jewish names to have a divine name as part of them, as Isaiah’s name does. This does not mean that Isaiah was God. Furthermore, Isaiah is not the only prophet to name children as messages to the Jewish people. I am sure you will remember that Hosea, his contemporary in the north, did likewise.
You should also know that Matthew changed the words of Isaiah. Matthew does not like the prophets, apparently, for he constantly misrepresents their words. Not only does Isaiah not write of a virgin birth, as I am sure you are aware, but he writes that the woman would name her child Emmanuel. Matthew changes this to “they shall call his name Emmanuel”. Matthew wants ‘Emmanuel’ to sound like an honorific, but it is not. Isaiah is telling us that the woman would name the child Emmanuel, which Mary did not do. Mary named her child, ‘Jesus’. This by itself is a failure of Jesus to fulfill the prophecy.
I hope after reviewing these facts, you realize your error. I am sure it was unintentional. The Church has long misrepresented the passage. The way it is written does not fit their theology. However, if we seek the truth, if we wish to know what God says, then we cannot afford to accept uncritically such misrepresentations. Instead we must turn from a Church that manipulates the Word of God to invent its own theology. We must turn from a Church that rewrites the word of God. We must turn from a Church that considers its own opinions superior to that of the Creator. It is no wonder that the Church disallowed for so long its parishioners the right to read Tanach for themselves. It allowed them to bury the truth. Reading Isaiah 7 shows that it has nothing to do with Messiah. ‘Emmanuel’ is not Jesus, but died long before Jesus. He was not born of a virgin. And his mother actually named his child, ‘Emmanuel’.
Jim
Jim, my “messianic” pastor said: “We know that Immanuel means virgin, and that Isaiah 7 talks about Yeshua, because Matthew said so”.
Circular reasoning? I believe so!
Remi,
Indeed!
Jim
Aaron,
Trying to catch up on messages from this weekend, I saw something strange. It appeared to me that you were saying that ‘messiah’ means ‘savior’. It does not. It means ‘anointed’. Kings were messiahs. Priests were messiahs. And they are all messiah by virtue of having been anointed. None of them are saviors, not in the sense you mean.
As far as I can tell, your definition of savior is one not given in Tanach. Savior does not mean ‘one who bears sin’ as you seem to think. In fact, as pointed out, there is no such teaching in Torah that one shall bear the sins of another. If you had reviewed Ezekiel 18 and 33 as Dina has urged, you would note that no such requirement exists. A human becomes righteous through repenting and dedicating himself to righteousness. No one needs to bear the sins of another. Each person is responsible for his own wrongdoing and his own improvement.
Consider also: after the incident of the golden calf, Moses tells God that if God will not forgive the people, he would like to also be blotted from God’s book. But God explains His justice. He says, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book” (Ex. 32:33). Note that God says nothing about a replacement. He will not accept the innocent with the guilty. Nor does He say that He will take the innocent in place of the guilty.
Christians are sometimes confused by the innocence of animals. They believe that God is accepting the innocent on behalf of the guilty. But this is not really so. Sheep, goats, and other animals are not innocent or guilty. They do not have commands to keep as we do, for they cannot understand them. Innocence is not a concept applicable to them. Unfortunately, the Church has long confused people on this point. It is likely the Church is herself confused. But this error has them looking for the innocent to replace the guilty. Such an idea is not found in Torah. God punishes the guilty and forgives those who rededicate themselves to His Torah and become obedient rather than disobedient.
Jim
Aaron,
As I continue to go through this weekend’s comments, I find myself amazed by another claim you make, the claim that you have the new covenant of Jeremiah 31. Of course, all Christians claim this, and some will argue that I ought not be any longer amazed. But within the context of a conversation meant to convince knowledgeable people that they ought to worship Jesus, I am amazed anew that none of you apparently reads the passage in question. It clearly has nothing to do with Christianity.
The Church teaches that the new covenant is made with everyone, as if it is more inclusive than the ‘old’ covenant. However, this is not the case. According to v. 31, God “will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.” This is not a covenant made with all the nations.
But this presents an even greater problem. If Jesus instituted the new covenant, then according to Jeremiah 31:31, the greater number of Jews should have been changed by it. However, this has not happened. Among knowledgeable Jews, it is rare to find one to turn to Jesus, because one does not go from worshiping God to worshiping a man. It is both clearly forbidden and a clear step down. Certainly a few Jews here and there worship Jesus, but they are usually quite ignorant of Torah. Already far from God, they turn to any god they can find. Some turn to the east, embracing Buddhism or the teachings of gurus; others turn to Jesus. Of course, they cannot be wholly blamed for this, when their parents have failed to pass on to them the Torah. Nevertheless, generally speaking it will be those with little understanding of Torah, who have not lived a life of obedience to Torah who then embrace Jesus. The nation by-and-large does not accept Jesus, which only goes to show that he did not usher in the new covenant. If he had, the greater number of Israel would be Christian.
You might protest, however, that the Jewish people will accept Jesus, that this is the age of the gentiles right now. By Israel rejecting Jesus, the non-Jewish world gets their chance to accept him. This is folly. The new covenant is marked by the quality: “No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord…” (v. 34). It is obvious this has not happened. The Church still send out missionaries, including to the Jewish people. You yourself are here to teach the Jewish people that they need to know that Jesus is God. However, the new covenant is marked by people not needing to teach about God, for it will be known. So, it is obvious that Jesus did not usher in the new covenant.
It is also obvious that the law has not been written in Christian hearts, another element of the new covenant according to v. 33. Christians seldom even know the law, and quite frequently do not believe they need to know it. Not only that, they continue to sin. Paul writes of his struggle to cease from wrongdoing. In his letter to the Romans, it is obvious that he struggles with temptation. He writes that he does the wrong that he knows not to do and does not want to do and refrains from doing the good he ought and knows he ought to do. But he blames this on the sin that lives in him. This is not the mark of one with the law written in his heart. The new covenant was not instituted by Jesus, for Christians are no better able to live the law after him than before him.
As you can see, the Church has misrepresented these texts to you. I understand why you come to your conclusions, though they be in error. However, with but a little reading, you would see that Christianity does not bear the hallmarks of the new covenant of Jeremiah. Jesus did not bring a universal knowledge of God. He did not write the law in the hearts of Christians, not even Jewish Christians. The covenant does not even have to do with non-Jews. If you will dedicate yourself to learning Torah from the beginning instead of jumping into the middle of Tanach with a mind made up as to its meaning, you can shake these false notions from your mind, however. I hope you will endeavor to do so.
Jim
Aaron,
At some point I would like to return to your comments on Isaiah 53, but I find again as I am catching up on this weekend’s comments that you have badly understood Torah. You assert that Jesus is a prophet. Fortunately, the Church was not entrusted with the task of identifying God’s prophets. Israel was. And it is of great importance that we consider what Torah has to say on the matter, before deciding Jesus was a prophet.
Before turning to the Torah, directly, however, let us take note that the Tanach only comes to Christian hands by the testimony of the Jewish people. R’ Blumenthal writes about this and it is well worth searching for on his blog here. It is the Jewish people who assented to the claim that Isaiah was a prophet. It is the Jewish people who preserved his work. And it is the Jewish people who rejected Jesus as a prophet and the authors of the gospels as divinely inspired texts. If we accept their authority regarding Tanach, we must accept their authority regarding the ‘New Testament’.
Some Christians will say that they agree with me that the Jewish people are the arbiters of what is scripture, but then they will say that because the NT is supposed to have been written largely by Jews, then it is a Jewish work. This argument is specious. First, not every work is a Jewish work in the sense that it aligns with Torah just for having been written by a Jew. If this were the standard, we must accept the works of Karl Marx or Spinoza. Moreover, Christians reject such a standard when they reject the teachings of the rabbis. Clearly they do not believe genetics is the standard whereby one represents Torah teachings. Second, it was not Jews who canonized the works. They were canonized by non-Jews who are not part of the chain of tradition and have no authority. Third, even if they had been canonized by the apostles, and even if they had been Torah observant Jews, they did not “sit in Moses’ seat” as Jesus put it. These few uneducated men could not have the authority to canonize works by themselves, even if they had been observant. Nor did the authority to declare Jesus a prophet reside in them.
Now let us turn our attention to the Torah’s description of a prophet. Right before discussing false prophets, this statement appears: “You must diligently observe everything that I command you; do not add to it or take anything from it” (Deut. 12:32). The Torah places this right before the description of prophets to explain the limits of their power. The prophet may not proscribe what is allowed or permit what is forbidden.
But we find that Jesus did just that. In a passage highly regarded by the Church and considered beautiful even by many outside it (though not me), he says: “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery” (Matt. 5:31). Jesus is violating Torah. He is forbidding that which is permitted and inventing new category of sin that did not previously exist. Adultery has a specific meaning in Torah, as it must. Adultery is not just any sexual relationship of which one does not approve. Jesus has now called legal sexual relations between a husband and wife “adultery”. It takes some real gall to then call his yoke a light and easy burden to bear, while he lades guilt upon the guiltless.
Not only does Jesus violate the proscription to add to or subtract from the Torah, he fails the test to which Torah subjects a prophet, at least if he claimed to be divine. The Church has made much of the fact that Jesus is supposed to have been able to heal people, walk on water, turn water to wine, and other miracles. While these things are helpful for identifying a prophet, they are not the ultimate test. Deuteronomy 13 says that even if a prophet comes along with signs and wonders but teaches that one should follow Gods the Jewish people did not know, then he is not to be heeded. He is to be killed. He is sent only as a test to see if people love God or not. So, even if Jesus did perform these miracles, if at any time he presented himself as God, he is not to be heeded. God was only testing the dedication of the Jewish people. The moment Jesus claimed divinity, if he did, he was not a prophet.
But this is not the only test Jesus failed. You want to say that Deut. 18:15 is about Jesus: “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you shall heed such a prophet.” But you have no support for such a claim except that the Church fancies it to be so. And you clearly have not read the whole section. Moses points out that the people will need some way to identify such a prophet. He tells them: “If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously, do not be frightened by it” (v. 22).
According to the Gospel of Matthew, the Pharisees asked for a sign from Jesus. This is perfectly reasonable. If one claims to be from God, he ought to offer proof, just as Moses said. But Jesus does not treat this as a reasonable request. Instead he is abusive, derisive, and contemptuous. One might say that he “esteemed [them] not”. He insults them, but obliges anyway: “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah…” (Matt. 12:39). So he predicts his resurrection, offering it as a sign to the Pharisees.
But he never fulfilled this sign. After the supposed resurrection, he never presents himself to the Pharisees. He never completes the proof. Returned from the dead, he should have come to them and said, “Now you can believe.” But this he does not do. In fact, he speaks negatively of those like Thomas who believe based on proof and praises those who will believe without proof. This is the opposite of Torah, which tells you how to verify the prophet. That itself should make us reject him. And the NT itself acknowledges that Jesus never completed the proof. He predicted that he would come back and then never showed that he did. This is like me telling you that I am a police officer and you can tell because I have a badge in my drawer at home. If I attempt to commandeer your vehicle, you will want better proof than an absent badge.
If we are to accept the words of Jesus, we need greater proof than him claiming he would rise from the dead. Afterward, he must present himself. He must show that he actually did come back from the grave. By not coming back, he reveals that he was presumptuous, that he was not a prophet.
That word presumptuous suits Jesus well, not only because he proved that he was not a prophet by not returning from the dead. He also expected people to accept him uncritically. Moreover, as we have seen, he attempted to change Torah law. And worse, at least according to some, he claimed to be divine. Indeed, the word for Jesus is not prophet; it is presumption.
Jim
Jim-
If you knew that Yahusha had the spirit of God you would not question his authority. If people today weren’t being healed by his name, casting out demons in his name,or speaking in different tongues in his name maybe we could question him.. The evidence that he is alive and well is overwhelming.
Now lets discuss what Yahusha said-
He said that man couldn’t divorce his wife except if she was unfaithful to him. In addition, if you look at a woman lustfully you commit adultery.
This was to eliminate widows, rapist, kids without parents ect. Furthermore, This sanctifies the original intent of the Father when a man and woman become 1 flesh.
Now what did Yahusha say about himself-
He claimed to be sent by Father, led by the spirit, and only spoke what the Father told him to say.
Now the children of Israel did not want to hear God speak, so he said, he would raise up one of their very own and he would only speak what God commanded him to speak. And this delighted the Father.
Yahusha Performed many signs and miracles that the Pharisees saw. The Jews nor the Muslims disagree with that. In addition, some pharisees were his followers, have you ever considered that? That showed himself to them.
Remember that Yahusha said: If you don’t believe that I come from the Father then believe in the miracles that you may know that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.
You didn’t counter one single thing Jim said. He changed what Torah DID say, which is what CANNOT be done.
Even if people CAN do all this casting out that doesn’t mean it’s from G-d. They don’t past the Torah test, i.e., G-d’s test.
I clarified what Yahusha said. It makes perfect sense. Yes he did pass the test.
If a messianic candidate dies, he has failed the test. If he asks to be worshiped, he definitively fails the test.
It’s unfathomable when a person can be shown literally, conclusive evidence how their messiah directly and willfully violated Torah and yet are unable to even see or comprehend such a thing. There is no ambiguity here but direct evidence.
Fred you speculate that he did not rise again.
The problem you have is the complete lack of understanding of Any Torah. Not only is there Xtianese, but Xtianity has totally rewritten Torah in THEIR image. Thus, it is a man-made religion. It is no wonder they speak so much of Adam and, of course, the second Adam.
The problem with that argument is this.
The so-called man-made religion produces the supernatural.
The feeling is mutual about your knowledge. I see it that you use human logic, and context and put God into your safe box.
My so called image exposed Israel to its hypocrisy. Something God spoke about all through the Torah and the Prophets. Name one prophet after Solomon that wasn’t sent to stop Israel from leaving peace in which hasn’t returned to them in over 2000 years?
Lastly my faith says that once they accept him they will have peace.
1 Hebrew Man who was considered the Messiah by many changed the world.
Yes salvation has been brought to the world. Faith in the 1 he sent changed the hearts of the whole WORLD.
The Father is the judge. The books will open. No one has passed the challenge of the Law. But intercession will be made by the innocent Messiah to those who have accepted him.
But the law is written on my heart and my mind. its called Faith.
You’ve GOT to be kidding. THAT’s your argument. According to YOU there is fault in using logic and context. Are you telling us that G-d created mankind with such capacity for thinking and that he desires us NOT to use that capacity. If a person isn’t suppose to use his faculties in this pursuit then absolutely No One can be trusted for the truth. In so doing a person will believe in every snake-oil salesman there is. That certainly explains why there are so many different sects and versions of Xtianity. All one can rely upon is what they feel. There can be No understanding. That feeling Xtians profess and espouse can be attained by virtually every religion that has ever existed. In fact, it was that emotional bond is what caused the downfall of Menasheh. One could say he also had a “Xtian moment”.
The ONLY reason you even know about when Israel failed is, as was stated, the Jews, the Righteous Rabbis, codified those texts to be included in the canon. Xtianity is not so hones though. As you note; your messiah changed the world. What WAS that change. It was blood on their hands. These Xtians murdered more people, in the name of that messiah, than anyone else has before or since. When one camouflages that part of history they are no different than those Jews they deride.
Sharbano, that’s the problem with arguing with Christians. When it boils down to their God-given common sense and logic or blind faith, then faith trumps reason every time.
In that case, Aaron is wasting his time. He is pretending to use reason–otherwise he wouldn’t bother arguing. But when we present reason, he rejects it because he has faith. He wants to have it both ways.
So Aaron, if you’re going to continue this debate, you’re going to have to use Scripture in a reasonable way to support your claims. If you’re going by faith, we have no reason to believe a word you say. Who should I believe: God’s word or Aaron’s faith? That’s not even a question.
I also meant to mention the methods Jews use to study Torah, hermeneutics, was taught by Moshe at Sinai. Therefore, the idea of using logic is embodied in Torah.
“Fred you speculate that he did not rise again.”
the christians like peter weren’t producing a flesh and blood jesus , they were producing what they thought they saw. sometime they saw a Gardner, some time unknown ghost, sometime completely unrecognizable thing. at galillee some doubted. doubted what? look how many shape shifting and unknowns forms you worship.
“The so-called man-made religion produces the supernatural.”
but jesus was suppose to be flesh and blood man and he read his flesh and blood thought into jewish torah by twisting it. you are actually a man worshiper.
>>>>“The so-called man-made religion produces the supernatural.”<<<<
You will find that every religion on earth claims to "produce the a supernatural" if you take the time to research. Even Hindu gurus can perform miracles. Buddhist Shoalin priests claim to have the "chi", a supernatural power. Mormons make miracle claims. Do you accept Mormonism and Hinduism as the truth? Jews also have claims of supernatural intervention. Therefore apparent or imagined supernatural phenomena should be taken off the table as proof of regarding religious truth. Sauce for the goose.
“Fred you speculate that he did not rise again.”
Correct, just as you speculate that Muhammad did not ascend to heaven, either. Or that Joseph Smith did not have magic glasses to read golden plates brought down by Moroni.
“My so called image exposed Israel to its hypocrisy. ”
but man worship will not allow your man worshiping brains to see the hypocrisy within the creature you worship.
example
1. the man god whom you worship tells the rich man to give up money, but keeps 300 dinari worth of oil to prevent his body from stinking . so jesus krist, the man you worship with all you heart and all your soul, jesus want to avoid smell of death on his DEAD meat body , but made his dead flesh body more important than starving children. the benefit jesus dead body receive is prevention of stink, but it does not prevent the death of starving children.
Aaron,
Responding to your comments here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/#comment-26418 .
It has been your assertion that you only adhere to the Word of God, and I appreciate that this is the standard you seek. Because the Church has already misrepresented the Torah, it is hard for Christians to actually read the Torah, attending to its teachings. Instead, the Church manipulates the Word of God to build its own theology and, whether by accident or design, deceived many people. This has put you in the uncomfortable position of arguing against the Word of God.
You write that if I knew that Jesus had the spirit of God, I would not question his authority, and you offer as proof of his authority current day miracles. To respond this way to what I wrote is to deny Torah. It is to deny the Word of God. Torah does not ask one to accept someone based on miracles alone, as I have already shown. His teaching must comport with Torah. He must not advocate for an unknown god. By denying this reality, the Church has established its own standards for propecy, rejecting God’s. You have a choice to whom you will listen, man or God.
Virtually every religion claims miracles. Miracles are to be tested in the light of Torah. Imagine a scenario wherein a man comes along healing people, walking on water and the like who then tells people that they must worship the sun, either as supreme deity or in conjunction with God. Would you obey such a man? The Torah has already told us that we are not to listen to him. Nor should we listen to someone who tells us to worship a man, another created being. It matters not what miracles he performs or what miracles his followers perform. We are to follow God. “Choose you this day whom you will serve…” the miracle worker or the Creator of the Universe.
While you consider this, consider also that Jesus’ miracles were mixed signs. In John 5, he tells a man to carry his bed on the Sabbath after healing him. Jesus has created a conflict between himself and Torah. One is not to carry objects in public on the Sabbath. The questions of the Jews are reasonable. Jesus puts his own word against God’s. The Word of God tells us not to follow miracles; the word of man tells us that we should follow miracles. In Matthew 12, Jesus allows his followers to break the Sabbath. He is questioned about this by Pharisees. His arguments to them are irrational, but he heals on the Sabbath, which Matthew assumes to prove Jesus’ authority. So the question arises again: Will we follow the Word of God or the word of man? Will we seek after miracles or truth? In John 9, Jesus breaks the Sabbath, not by healing a man, but by making a mixture. (Note: the mixture is not even necessary for the healing. This is a gratuitous breaking of the Sabbath.) Once again, the question comes up, what is the standard for listening to a prophet? Is it miracles alone? That is the Church’s standard, man’s standard; it is not God’s. When Jesus says to believe on him for the miracles, this is in opposition to the Word of God.
Similarly, Torah teaches one not to add to or take away from the Law. The Church abides by a different standard. The word of man allows Jesus to change the law. He imposes a new standard of adultery on people. According to Torah, he has no right to do this. How difficult it must be for you to defend the indefensible. The Church has put you in a tight spot. It is true that divorce is not optimal. Nevertheless, Torah allows it. If a man divorces a woman and remarries, this is not adultery, according to the Word of God. The word of man invents its own system. In pride it believes it can do better than God, improve upon His Word. But this is impossible. You write that Jesus “sanctifies the original intent of the Father”. Other than you misusing the word ‘sanctifies’, it should be obvious that this is unnecessary. If God wished to disallow divorce, He would have when He gave the Torah. He is God, after all, and He knows what He is doing.
And if you should say that Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of the Jew’s hearts, then you are making a false argument. According to the Church, the Law is a schoolmaster, meant to show one his imperfections. No one can keep the Law. Therefore, this difficult law should have been that given by the Torah, so people could realize just how bad they were. Jesus has no justification for making his word superior to that of God.
The appeal you make to miracles and superior doctrine does not originate with you. It comes from the Church. It had its own standards for testing prophets, trading God’s Word for man’s. The Church would have us impressed with miracles, as if every religion did not claim to have miracles. Of course, the miracles of the Church are invisible, always happening ‘over there’. “I know a man who knows a man whose cancer was healed.” But even if the miracles were evident, it were a poor trade to exchange one word of Torah for heaps of miracles. People chase miracles; God wishes us to chase truth. God’s word does not allow one word to be altered, while Jesus makes to improve upon the Torah. What hubris! You wish us to follow the Word of God. We do. We test miracle workers in light of Torah. And when the miracle worker fails that test, we pay him no heed. We do not wish to be confused by the word of man.
Jim
Surely Xtians haven’t been taught or even told of Apollonius of Tyana.
While you consider this, consider also that Jesus’ miracles were mixed signs. In John 5, he tells a man to carry his bed on the Sabbath after healing him. Jesus has created a conflict between himself and Torah. One is not to carry objects in public on the Sabbath.
Jim, I think it would be fair to note that among Jews in second temple times there was no universal agreement about concepts such as the Eruv which Judaism today considers normal. Would anyone today penalize a handicapped man who was miraculously healed for taking his wheelchair home with him on shabbat after a healing?
Jesus in John 5 heals a handicapped man who the text says was “an invalid for 38 years.” It strongly implies the man could be homeless and has nobody to help him into the pool for relief. In that situation, this man’s mat would probably be a sole possession, and he probably could have carried it without issue.
Maybe rabbi B can chime in here, but I strongly doubt that anyone would have actually censured Jesus for telling him to take his mat.
Also, consider the somewhat parallel episode in Mark 2, where (though the Sabbath isn’t directly mentioned,) the narrative is extremely similar to John 5 except that more work is done, but without any censure from the Pharisees.
In Mark 2 four men lower a paralyzed man through the roof on a pallet, (because of inability to get to Jesus through the crowds.) So, Jesus heals this man, and again the man is told to carry his mat. This time however, there is no censure from the Pharisees indicated even though more actual “work” is being done in Mark 2.
Concerned Reader The idea that there “was no universal agreement” is misapplied here. The Qumran library reveals that the Sadducees had a far stricter interpretation of these sabbath laws than did the Pharisees so the prohibition against carrying in a public domain was universal (I got this information from Lawrence Schiffman’s “Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls”) And as for the invalid carrying his wheelchair home in modern times – in an Orthodox community – it wouldn’t occur to him. 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
So, (hypothetically off course) If a handicapped person was healed from his disability, on shabbat, he would be unable to take it with him?
Concerned Reader
If this person was someone who lived with the Law – it wouldn’t occur to him/her to want to take it with
Yes, the prohibition of carrying was universal in principle, but not so universal with the specific details of the application, that was the whole point of my comment. The Qumran sectarians did not have leniency, whereas Pharisees did. Later rabbis instituted things like the Eruv, whereas some would not allow for that.
Con,
Since R’ Blumenthal has already discussed the problem with carrying the mat on the Sabbath, let me only reiterate a couple points and then show why Mark 2 supports my argument, though it is irrelevant to the John 5 incident as regards the Sabbath.
Even if some allowance of the law could be made for those recently healed, John is not making that point. Yes, he does want the Jews to appear petty. But he is also creating a scenario wherein Jesus’ authority is proven through his miracles. But miracles do not stand by themselves. They are necessary for proving a prophet, but they are not sufficient. When Jesus contradicts the Torah he undoes the proof his miracles are meant to offer.
John is not content to leave things at the carrying of the mat. He is going to push farther and have Jesus break the Torah directly himself. So that, even if the incident in John 5 would have posed not problem from a Torah perspective, Jesus will go out of his way to break the Sabbath himself in John 9. The message from John is the same in both instances. Torah is petty and so are those who keep it. The miracle worker is supreme. John operates on the principle that God would not allow someone to do miracles if he were not godly. However, this is a direct contradiction to the principle of Deuteronomy 13. The NT is operating on its own standard, not the standard of Torah.
Now Mark 2 has no bearing on whether or not it is lawful to carry one’s bed on the Sabbath if one is healed. As you point out, Mark says nothing about it being the Sabbath when the paralytic is lowered through the roof. The Sabbath is only mentioned in regard to a separate incident later in the chapter, the one where the disciples break the Sabbath and Jesus makes absurd arguments that bear nothing on the issue. The healing of the paralytic has no bearing on the prohibition to carry on the Sabbath.
However, it does have bearing regarding the authority of miracles. When the man is lowered, Jesus does not immediately heal the man. Rather he forgives the man. This causes a stir, as well it should. If R’ Blumenthal were to tell me he had the power to forgive me for offenses that I never committed against him, I would be greatly troubled. And only then Jesus heals the man “so [they] may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”. This is taken by many Christians, if not most, to be a proof of Jesus’ divinity. For they too ask, “Who but God can forgive sins?” But if Jesus is claiming to be divine, then he his miracle is not sufficient to back up his claim that he can forgive sins. He has just made a claim that must be rejected no matter how many paralytics he heals. And if he is not claiming divinity, I would think we would still be right to reject him. When did Moses or the prophets ever claim to have the power to forgive sins? Nathan tells David that God has forgiven him, but not that Nathan has the power to forgive. Jesus’ power to forgive sins does not reside in Torah, and is at best a mixed sign again.
Thanks for bringing that to our attention,
Jim
I know John has his theological points that he hopes to raise, but that wasn’t the point of what my comment was about. I was raising the issue that in Mark 2 and John 5 (two similar narratives) “work” seems to be being done, but it doesn’t seem like anyone would have freaked out about those episodes. Jews don’t feel bothered if someone walks with crutches on shabbat, so what I was pointing out was, a special dispensation might have been granted to that man, (in light of a healing) to carry his mat. I was pointing out that the Pharisees freaking out in that episode wouldn’t happen, does that make sense? John is trying to show pettiness, but the point is, only a very strict interpretation would have taken issue with that man carrying a mat that he was previously stuck on.
Now Mark 2 has no bearing on whether or not it is lawful to carry one’s bed on the Sabbath if one is healed. As you point out, Mark says nothing about it being the Sabbath when the paralytic is lowered through the roof.
He doesn’t have to mention the Sabbath, that’s the point. There is material common to Mark in the John episode, IE when John was writing his text, its likely that he drew on this material from Mark 2, but John made his version a Sabbath episode.
Con,
R’ Blumenthal already discussed the halachah with you, a point which I acknowledged in my comment. I do not see the point in the rest of your speculation.
Jim
Aaron,
You call it speculation for Fred to say that Jesus did not come back from the dead. To some degree this is true, but it is also speculation to say that Jesus did come back from the dead. After all, you did not see him. I did not see him. Fred did not see him. Apologists will say that the tomb is empty, but of course that does not imply a resurrection. For that you would need a living body. They want us to speculate; only they want us to speculate that Jesus came back from the dead. But this is not a reasonable conclusion.
I would like to conduct a thought experiment with you, if you are willing. It is one I have asked others to consider when they have insisted that we accept the resurrection. I would like you to take yourself back in time mentally. I would like you to put your self in the shoes of someone living during the time of Jesus. And I would like you to consider how the story of the resurrection would unfold to you if you were not a disciple of Jesus but merely an interested party.
Let us say that you have heard that Jesus claimed he was going to come back from the dead. Also, you have heard of his miracles. Perhaps you have even seen some. There is controversy surrounding Jesus, and perhaps you wonder if he might be the Messiah. Perhaps you are even hopeful that he might be the Messiah.
When he is put to death, at first you may be disappointed. Certainly you are saddened. But you remember his prediction. You do not rule him out of contention as Messiah, because he has three days in which to prove himself. Depending on how hopeful you are, you anticipate the third day with either curiosity or excitement.
Now, remember that you are not a disciple. So, when the third day comes around, you do not see him. You do not even hear of his resurrection, because it is not publicized. For you, the third day comes and goes with no fanfare. If you were anticipating his return you are disappointed.
After a week, he is still not back. He does not come back at three weeks. For you, life is returning to normal. You still must await the Messiah, just as you did before. It has been a month since Jesus died before you know it. Shavuot is fast approaching.
And that is when the announcement is made. Jesus disciples show up 50 days after his death, saying that he came back from the dead. By this you are surprised. It is long after the time we was supposed to come back. You may be interested, even excited. Perhaps you go to one of the disciples and say, “Take me to Jesus.” Or you want to, but then Peter tells everyone that Jesus did come back from the dead, but ten days ago, he rose into the heavens. He is not here now. But he was. Really. You just missed him.
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that this is the story of the gospels and the Book of Acts. I have only retold the story from a different perspective. According to the NT, Jesus did not appear to his critics. He did not appear publicly. He came to a few, here and there, in secret. Granted the NT contradicts itself on his appearances, but I am willing to put that aside for the moment. I only want to ask if it is a credible story.
Jesus did not come back on day three as promised, not so most people could know anyway. His supposed resurrection was not announced until day fifty. At that time, he is nowhere to be found. People say he came back, but they have no proof to offer. This story is not credible.
So, when you tell Fred that it is speculation that Jesus did not return from the grave, you should know, that you are only speculating that he did. The question is whether or not it is reasonable to believe that he did come back from the dead (and if so what that means.) And in fact, as this thought experiment shows, it is not reasonable to believe in the resurrection. It is an unsupported claim. At the time when Jesus’ resurrection was announced, the disciples produced no Jesus. They had to tell people instead that Jesus rose into the sky. The story is not compelling. Fred’s conclusion is not mere speculation but reasonable. Perhaps it is time to reconsider your own speculations.
Jim
Can I share your comment Jim? I like the way you explained it!
Remi,
If my writing can be of service to you, please make use of it.
Jim
Ahem, the book, have you forgot the book? 🙂
I don’t understand?
We should believe Xtianity because HIS disciples were the ONLY ones who supposedly were privy to the resurrection? Certainly, with all they had invested in the man in giving their support there was reason enough to say it was so. Otherwise all these people would be made out to be fools. It is axiomatic that the religion didn’t survive because of “Jewish followers”. If it weren’t for Constantine it may well have died out. Furthermore, how DID it survive? It didn’t survive on its own merit. Did all the converts over the centuries do it because of a change of heart? Not hardly. It continued “By the Sword”. The church “Imposed” that religion on the masses. Therefore, to give Any credence to the religion is problematic.
That fact alone is enough to make anybody doubt. Jews who did not want to disobey G-d were killed. And that’s the whole irony, Christians would say that they preferred their sin instead of converting and accepting Yeshua’s forgiveness!
I find that it really sucks that religions declare death penalties/curses for apostasy/failure to convert when the beliefs of all of these religions themselves are equally based on meager independently verifiable information. Nobody can independently verify Sinai, the resurrection, or the Qumran’s reception, so you are all in the same exact boat when it comes to verification. Its foolish to pretend otherwise.
If the world did not have theocracies in it where one’s beliefs can be put on trial, the world would be a less violent place. Any ideology, secular or religious where a mere opinion can cost you your life is an oppressive system. Jews who lived in Medieval Muslim and Christian theocracies, (along with all the sectarian Christian or Muslim coreligionist members in those societies,) faced death if they did not tow the line. I’m not entirely sure that a halachic state would be any less oppressive.
To be fair, I don’t think Christians nor Jews try to force conversion to anybody right now… Could this happen in an Halachich state? Yes, but if the Bible is true, the messiah will come and everybody will attack Israel. They will realize themselves that they were wrong and will repent and all will follow G-d. For NOW, bot Jews and Christians are peaceful and are peaceful religion.
you made some good points brother
Yes, but if the Bible is true, the messiah will come and everybody will attack Israel.
THIS LINE is the perfect example of a defeatist attitude that will inevitably lead to violence. ITS written = it will happen is a mistake. The bible teaches that you have free choice. You just proved my point that THIS COULD HAPPEN in a halachic state. “oh well, its written, its gonna happen.”
As an example (that I have heard from some rabbis.) if there were a halachic state, and there were gentiles in the land of Israel, they would be told, live a god fearing noachide life in Israel as a Ger, Convert if you choose, or leave the country peacefully.
LEAVE PEACEFULLY is not necessarily a good or moral act either, because ecclesiastical authorities cannot control the actions of the laypeople in their communities. When the Spanish kicked the Jewish people out of Spain, they were told convert, or leave. There were Church instituted (ecclesiastical) protections meant to prevent violence against Jews in these countries, (exemplified by Augustine,) but these papal instructions did not prevent pogroms, rogue preachers, laymen, from acting with violence. Even though Jews were told to leave, were expelled, violence was still the effect, still the norm.
I have seen rabbis (on youtube) living in Christian countries, burn Christian Bible’s for the world to see! How are Christians gonna take that? Its a damn good thing that these countries are no longer Christian theocracies, because blasphemy in a Christian theocracy merited a death sentence whether you were Christian or not. Back in the day blasphemy was an act of sedition. Any government attached to any religion (monotheistic or polytheistic) is/has been/will be capable of the horrid behavior we saw in the middle ages.
I agree, I don’t think anyone is inherently wanting to hurt anyone. But, just to give an example.
There are clearly verses in the NT that say horrible atrocious things about Jews in a polemical way. THERE IS ONE VERSE THAT SAYS TO KILL THOSE WHO WOULD NOT HAVE JESUS TO BE KING OVER THEM. ONE VERSE. THE TANAKH HAS VERSES CONDONING THAT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN SHOULD ALL DIE!
The same NT text says that Jews are heirs of the promises, to them belong the covenants, the law, the adoption of sons, etc. It says there is much benefit to being a Jew and Circumcision in every way, (because Jews are nursed on the words of G-d,) it endorses the authority of the Pharisees, (in terms that the content they espouse for teaching is the right content,) IT WARNS GENTILES NOT TO BOAST AGAINST THE NATURAL BRANCHES, etc. IT SHOWS PAUL CIRCUMCISING Timothy (whose mom was Jewish,) THAT’S UNWRITTEN CUSTOM, NOT WRITTEN LAW It tells Christians they are not immune to divine displeasure, its ethics are based on second temple G-d fearing ethics, etc. Paul and Peter and James subject themselves to 39 lashes (FYI written Torah says 40, sages IN TRADITION say 39.)
What punishment does the NT advocate against apostates that do not accept the gospel? “Wipe the dust from your feet, and leave that place.” Judas was said to be punished by God, BUT not by human hands, only by God alone. What does this tell me? It tells me A Christian has to ignore all of the ethical and practical advice of their book in order to harm another person, and they have to justify their violence by other means.
A book or interpretation can be very peaceful, but violence still makes its way.
I know, you are right CR. Look, I know a bunch of Messianic and they are good, real good people. I know Jews who are really good too. What does that mean. We have to be careful with what we believe. Can we explain the atrocities of Christians, Jews or Muslims? Are there good Muslims? I am sure also! There are passages in the Hebrew Bible that seem hard and violent, there are also in the NT. One of the difference is that they are not open-ended like the Quran. But again, would that mean that the NT is not inspired just because people understood those verses as anti-semitics? Was the general intent of the book? How did the follower of your religion acted in the last 2000 years? Are you a minority of people who do good? I only throw questions and we are, each responsible to see if our ways are good towards others and if our religion is peaceful. (present, past, and possible future). You do ask good questions CR, and the world would be a better place if we would all ask those questions! I guest, the most important in the end is to leave this place better than when we came, and keep on seeking G-d. Some times, I get in arguments with other, (not bad ones) about religion. I know that in the end, it’s important to believe the truth, because it should lead to the good of others… But the way we act is more important and even if someone believe wrong about G-d, if he seeks and does good, in the end, even if he as a wrong understanding, I am sure that everything will go for the best.
jesus thought that the high priest was going to see him come back and demolish his enemies. read matthew 25:41-46
“loving enemies” does not mean that jesus told MAGISTRATES to love enemies
paul says that the authorities don’t bear the sword for no reason and are put there by god.
quoting rubio
Did the Message of ‘Love thy Enemies’ Put Jesus beyond the Political
Antagonisms of his Age?
The injunction concerning the love of one’s enemies and lack of resistance to
evil, conveyed in Mt. 5.38–39, 48, is a typical objection to any hypothesis of a
seditious Jesus. The presence of the closing antitheses of the Sermon on the
Mount, with its teaching of love, seems to preclude any violent reaction against
the Roman Empire and its collaborators.343
This objection, however, was already countered by Robert Eisler almost a
century ago, by arguing that there are several reasonable answers.344 One is
that, if one finds a contradiction between Mt. 5 and—for instance—the sayings
about the swords, and decides to drop the latter as secondary, then one
could also, and maybe with better reasons, drop the saying on love of one’s
enemies as secondary and inauthentic.345
Another—more convincing—possibility for explaining the whole evidence
is to state the idea of a spiritual evolution in Jesus. There are two interrelated
reasons to think so. First, seditious overtones surface more clearly in the closing
stages of his life.346 Secondly, such as Eisler remarked, Lk. 22.36 seems to
witness a shift in Jesus’ attitude.347 This proposal is all the more reasonable
because there are several Gospel passages indicating that, as the decisive
moment in Jerusalem approached, Jesus underwent some critical situations
and adopted serious decisions.348
A further possibility lies in not finding contradiction at all between
Mt. 5.38–48 and a seditious stance. In fact, the two closing antitheses of the
Sermon on the Mount have been interpreted as making sense not (or not primarily
and specifically) in the political realm,349 but rather in a context of local
social interaction, and more probably in conflicts that would have been related
to the economic difficulties of communities which are disintegrating precisely
because of the rigorous taxation by Roman client rulers, indirectly because of
Roman imperialism.350 If this reading is correct,351 the ‘love thy enemies’
saying would not be addressed to political enemies, but would paradoxically
express a form of resistance to oppressive foreign rule through constructive
social relations characterized by mutual assistance and a spirit of
solidarity.352
Admittedly, if one thinks—with most scholarly opinion—that the political
realm must not be excluded from the saying,353 unless we accept the already
mentioned view of a shift in Jesus, we should conclude that there is here a blatant
inconsistency. This, however, does not lead us into an impasse: religious
visionaries and charismatic preachers are not usually consistent.354
Contradictions of this kind are also found in the New Testament. For instance,
if ‘the contradiction between the commandment to love and the incitement to
hate not only belongs to later interpretations of the [Fourth] Gospel but is also
inherent in the text itself’,355 I cannot see why the simultaneous presence of
conflicting features could not be also present in Jesus’ life and mind.356 In fact
we find sayings in the Gospels that are extremely hostile to wealth and rich
people, but also passages witnessing financial support of the Jesus movement,
including women who were presumably not so poor; both traditions coexist
without any indication that they were contradictory, and it is likely that they go
back to Jesus’ lifetime. Moreover, throughout history many Christians (including
cardinals and popes) have hoisted love of enemies as their hallmark,
whereas they have hated, persecuted, waged war, and massacred their enemies,
and often they have presumably done it in all good faith.
Yes, and that’s the danger of false religion… But there are peaceful christians who are not following those verses. You don’t want a false book as “holy” because in the end, it will only cause violence, even if some are peaceful…
i think one should be fair to the muslim holy text
https://scholarlyislam.wordpress.com/2016/03/23/answering-jihad-with-deception-a-response-to-nabeel-qureshi/
I read part of the Quran and it’s clear that they were asking to find the Jews and the Christians and slaughter them. I have not read a lot of it, but it was clear that the message was there!
No, my point that this Halachic Israel won’t happen without a serious event and that everybody will agree with it. I think we have a responsibility to care for others, in a sense that’s “true religion” as a paraphrase of Jesus. That’s a choice that each individual have to make by their own. But if you see that the religion you are in is violent in nature, it should make you think and ponder if you am right… Does that make sense CR? If Jews would kill people like Muslims do, I would start wondering if G-d is really loving and caring? For Christians, there are clear teaching that Jesus ask to love their enemies. So, because of that, it can be said that those are the true follower of Jesus. For Judaism, it has been a peaceful religion forever. It’s a mix of collectivity and individuality that forms a group. Muslims should really doubt their god because of all the violence that they bring and the book they have. True some may use the Bible (or Hebrew Bible) for wrong purpose and religion that would force people to believe like them or else is wrong… Now, what do we do with G-d’s word, we can make the world better or worst. I should be our responsibility to make it better.
Sharbano:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my from mocking and spitting”
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his we are healed.”
What imagery-
Glory to him!!!
Dogs have surrounded me a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me
For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one;
They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn-
FOR HE HAS DONE IT!!!
It doesn’t play well when one rewrites and changes the text so as to change its meaning. It’s not honest.
Deliver me from the sword (Psalm 22:20)… That does not fits too well with a crucifixion, I’m already nailed to a cross, Oh deliver me from the sword, that would be bad if a war breaks loose right now, I would probably have nowhere to hide… I am stuck here!
Good one!
I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.
He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Read the sentences out loud so that you might hear them-
Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.
For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
You have Yet to make any sense. What are you even saying.
I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.
He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Read the sentences out loud so that you might hear them-
bible819
Psalm 32:5 teaches that sincere confession before God is all that God needs for the forgiveness of sin – no blood sacrifice
and for Isaiah 53 – read these – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/category/messiah/isaiah-53/
“I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.”
No atonement, No Jesus here…. Thanks for confirming that we can be forgiven when we repent from our sins without a human sacrifice of Jesus… See Ezekiel 18, Isaiah 1, Psalm 51, etc.
“He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com/2016/03/24/907/
Jesus was not a proper sacrifice… why should we trust in him?
Bible 819
I’m cutting and pasting away away ha ha I’m cutting and pasting away ho ho he he ha ha
What’s your point?
Larry, your comment made me laugh out loud.
LarryB:
I believe exactly what it says.
Only God can forgive sins.
Only one, who is innocent can intercede for sins.
Who but the innocent 1 can bear people sins?
As even David came before God to ask for forgiveness.
Only God is innocent. The servant is God.
Hey Bibs,
Who says an intercessor needs to be innocent? Moses was an intercessor, was he innocent?
Who says a human being has to bear everyone’s sins? Ezekiel 18 and 33 emphatically refute this silly notion. You would know this if you actually read the Bible.
How can God be His own servant? Is your god schizophrenic, or has multiple personality disorder, or what?
bible 819
“Only God can forgive sins”
Most here would agree with you on that. The rest of it you still need a little more question and answer time. You should take advantage of that while you here.
Dina:
If you read your Bible you would know:
Though he had done no violence,
nor was (any) deceit in his mouth.= no deceit
He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.= Moses didn’t bear sins, he was sinful.
My God-
The Lord looked and was displeased
that there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.= He himself and only himself
My God achieved his own salvation for him.
Who is Your god Dina?. you can’t pick and choose what scriptures to ignore.
God’s very own arm- Could the servant be his arm?
whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot= Servant is the Arm of God
Servant=ARM=GOD’s Salvation
Bible 819, I am tire of people taking bible verses out of context!
Next verse (Isaiah 59:18)
According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
Ho yes, the coastlands, will repay.. It has not happened yet. The Arm of the L-rd is NOT Jesus:
“Who are these who fly like a cloud,
And like doves to their roosts?
9 Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me;
And the ships of Tarshish will come first,
To bring your sons from afar,
Their silver and their gold with them,
To the name of the Lord your God,
And to the Holy One of Israel,
Because He has glorified you.
See, when the Arm of the L-rd (God’s Judgement against the nations), the coastlands will be judged, then they will see, repent and will bring their gold for the article of the Third Temple.
And by the Way, Jesus had deceit in his mouth by prophesying falsely, did the Hight Priest ever saw Jesus coming on the clouds of Heaven? NO, then he had deceit. It’s easy to claim to be sinless… that does not make it so.
“If you read your Bible you would know:”
If YOU Bible819 would read your Bible and stop taking things out of context, then YOU would know and stop worshipping that dead-man god of yours, an abomination to HaShem!
Oh Bibbly! You ought to remove the beam from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from mine.
You are the one who is ignoring the passages of the Bible that don’t fit with your theology. The clear teachings of the Bible roundly refute the meanings you attribute to Isaiah 53–a passage you have ripped out of context and upon which you have imposed an interpretation that is utterly and completely false. Have you read Deuteronomy 4 lately? How about Deuteronomy 13? Or 30? Ezekiel 18 and 33?
Read those chapters with a fine tooth comb and tell me how you resolve the contradictions between what they teach and what you think Isaiah 53 teaches.
By the way, are you hear to have an honest debate? Because if that is the case, and if you haven’t come here simply to preach at us as Christians have been doing for 2000 years, then I will be happy to point out your errors regarding Isaiah 53 (you can probably find them yourself if you read all of the Scriptures in context after dropping your preconceived notions). If you are here to preach at us, then I won’t bother wasting my time–because why talk if you won’t be heard?
The Real Messianic:
If there was a prophetic message you would still be trying to apply context.
You didn’t counter any of my arguments.
All you gave me was assumptions.
You have no idea who Jesus showed himself to.
My God has risen. You have absolutely no proof that he hasn’t. Zilch!
His arm Is Jesus. God himself attained Salvation-
And was rejected like every servant that God sent to Israel.
Wow, what servant was accepted?
Bible 819
Since you commented to me once can I ask, is Jesus God or just the messiah?
Maybe somewhere in between, would you clarify your beliefs no need for bible cut and paste at this point. Just where your coming from. There seems to be a difference in beliefs between people when asked these two questions.
LarryB
I believe that Gods salvation whom some call Jesus (but he is Hebrew) must be apart of God. Basically, when God speaks of saving the world; He must be apart of it without any separation. Human beings have never received the Bibles words with out God giving them. Nor is a Prophet a prophet without Gods power.
Jesus said that he was 1 with the Father. He also said- that he only said and did what the Father had him do.
God’s arm is described to attain his own salvation.
A messiah is a savior and his Arm cannot separate from God.
Per Gods definition- There is no savior apart from him. If that is the case; How can you separate a savior from God? You can’t.
Salvation is Gods arm. Jesus must be apart of God.
Bible819 If Jesus is God’s arm then he can’t be the servant of Isaiah 53 – God’s arm is revealed upon the servant it is not the servant. And you ask which servant did God send to Israel that was accepted – well if we wouldn’t have accepted His servants you would have never heard of th
and the arm of the L-rd was revealed in the eyes of all the nations for judgement. (Isaiah 52:10) That does not fit Jesus, who, as per you, saved the nations!
Dina:
1st paragraph- Oh the rhetoric- no beams just facts
2nd paragraph- you didn’t disprove my word for word attributed meanings but referred me to Deuteronomy 4 , Deuteronomy 13, 30 Ezekiel 18, 33? What do you believe they say… I gave my attributed meanings- can you apply yours?
3rd paragraph- You speak of contradictions but listed none.
4th paragraph- What did you debate? You gave me all of your feelings towards Christians.
Besides if 1 Hebrew man who is believed to be God gave the world salvation; He must have done something amazing.
You said this preaching has been happening for 2000 years!
Wow, to believe it started in Jerusalem.
As far as Context- Can you context a prophetic message?
Allow me to elaborate- Daniel’s vision- can you context that for me?
Listen, Bibbly:
I mean it. Listen for real.
The chapters I cited are very clear and self-explanatory, but since you can’t be bothered to look them up I’ll summarize the basic points for you.
Deuteronomy 4 reminds us that we are to worship God only as He appeared to us at Sinai and that we are to never, ever, ever, ever associate Him with any physical form (by the way, I’m paraphrasing). Jesus did not appear to us at Sinai and he has a physical form; ergo, worship of him is forbidden.
You know, it really is that simple.
Deuteronomy 13 teaches us that if a prophet produces a miracle and then introduces a new type of worship, he is a false prophet. Jesus introduced a type of worship unknown to our fathers; ergo, his miracles are meaningless and he is a false prophet.
See how that contradicts your theology?
The chapters in Ezekiel teach that you can wipe away all your sins by turning away from evil and doing good and that no man can die for another man’s sins but each person dies for his own.
A damning refutation of your interpretation of Isaiah 53.
Oh, and you know what else? The Bible predicts that the gentiles will come to the Jews at the end of days to learn about God and not the other way around (Zechariah 8:23). The Bible promises that the Word of God will never stray from the mouths of the Jewish people (Isaiah 59:21) and that we will preserve His testimony even when we stray (Psalms 78).
So are you ready now to hear how you ripped Isaiah 53 out of context and gave it a meaning that contradicts the Word of God?
One thing IS for certain. Virtually EVERYTHING that Xtianity contends can easily be shown to be false assumptions. Xtianity is WHOLLY dependent upon vague, ambiguous, pulled quotes that MAY have some similarity in words but when taken into account the narrative it is shown to be disingenuous in the extreme. It was in full display here when one Xtian had the audacity to complain that a Jew uses “logic” to understand the text. Nothing is more obvious than the use, by Xtians, that Isaiah 53 is about THEIR messiah. If you were to read the ENTIRE narrative that begins with chapter 52 through chapter 54 it is clear that your messiah isn’t who is the subject. Anyone who will actually state that a “Servant” = G-d is incapable of discerning unambiguous text let alone text that has clarity.
“1st paragraph- Oh the rhetoric- no beams just facts”
You have the beam, we have the facts… 🙂
Dina-
1st Paragraph- you have my ear
2nd- Teach me.
3rd- Are we made in God’s image or is God made in our image?
4th-You know, it really is that simple. I agree.
5th- They never listened to the prophets… how are we to worship?
6th- See how that contradicts your theology? Nothing in my faith is different than yours- besides the fact that you deny the Christ and we accept him.
7th- Ezekiel, does take into account the suffering servant- As he is a ransom for many.
8th- You do go against the Suffering servant and have elected not to be ransomed.
9th- Oh, and you know what else? We have come to Israel and the end of days are here!!! (Zechariah 8:23).
10th-The Bible promises that the Word of God will never stray from the mouths of the Jewish people (Isaiah 59:21). Yes and only a remnant will be saved.
10th- and that we will preserve His testimony even when we stray (Psalms 78). We all have strayed and broke the Law. The suffering servant ransomed us. Those who have accepted him.
11th- So are you ready now to hear how you ripped Isaiah 53 out of context and gave it a meaning that contradicts the Word of God? He ransomed many- I have accepted his Grace.
Bible819 If Israel would not have listened to the prophets you would have never heard about the prophets – and everything in your faith is different than ours – you have faith in flesh and blood while we have faith in the One who created all flesh 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Pingback: He is risen? – The real messianic!
i don’t even know why it is called “miracle”
nobody saw the dead jesus exit his tomb.
Hence is why it started in Israel. And now is all over the world 2000 years later. Someone saw him.
So is Islam. You should convert.
Islam started in Israel?
“My God has risen. You have absolutely no proof that he hasn’t. Zilch!”
Your god has risen, that’s fine… but he is definitely not the G-d of Israel! By the way, the burden of the proof lies on the belieber and good luck to prove it has… as far as I know, the story of Jesus could have been based on a poor representation of Isaiah 53. But for now, with all the assumption, you are still worshipping a dead man. G-d is not a man and won’t show himself as a man (Deut 4). Keep on hoping on flesh and on a man who is dead, a man that had breath on his nostrils (Isaiah 2:22). But as for me, I won’t, because that’s an abomination and adultery to do such a thing against the creator of the universe!
The Real Messianic:
We know that for most of Israel: he is not God.
Hence is why that they don’t have peace.
That is emphasized in the Word of God as he states that only a remnant of Israel will be saved.
(When they look on the 1 they pierced.)
I’m worshiping a raised Man and the Christ who he himself is God. No salvation outside of God.
We are made in his image. Not God in the image of us- Don’t put a limit on God.
If God can come in the form of a bush, speak through a camel, speak through the prophets who Israel didn’t listen to. What is the image of God?
Question: Would Israel listen to God if he came to them himself? When have they ever listened?
Deut 4 We didn’t form God with our hands- He came in his image he formed us in.
The creator of the Universe requires blood to atone for sin. As life is in the blood.
The suffering servant was a ransom for many.- In other words, his blood was a ransom for many.
I find it quite humorous when Xtians use all these catch phrases without Any understanding of the quotes they mutilate.
Yours is no different than every other religion that has used way to lower G-d, or at least Their god, to a level that is equal with man.
Can you tell us the number of times the entire Tanach speaks the words, “gods your fathers have not known”. Since YOUR concept of G-d was completely UNKNOWN at the times of the Patriarchs it is clear that time after time after time G-d tells Israel NOT to follow a religion whose “gods you did not know”. You would see by this that what is written in Torah, the 5 books, are consistently reiterated over and over again. If you don’t have a full and Complete grasp of Torah fundamentals you Cannot understand the Rest of the Bible.
Sharbano-
What other gods was God referring to?
I’ll start you off:
Baal….
YOUR god. Torah states “wood and stone” Xtianity and Islam.
Sharbano:
What is Gods image?
What does it say, and mean, in Hebrew.
Bibbles, if God came in the form of a bush, is it okay to worship the Bush? If not, why not?
out of curiosity what is orthodox judaism’s position on God entering time and space?
do Jews believe that Gods real and proper voice came from the burning bush?
if that is the case then God communicated his “true” voice and did not require an incarnation /becoming something else of that voice.
just curious to know.
christianity has to believe that the infinite being lets go his powers of knowledge, seeing and vision and has to become blood, flesh , bone, and human soul to chat with humans.
robert2016 Being that God is the Creator of nature – He isn’t limited by nature. He is in time and space – but everywhere, evenly all the time. God doesn’t have a “proper voice” He uses sound to further His purpose and He produces it without vocal chords. 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Robert2016-
Adam sinned and condemned us all.
Abraham blessed all nations.
Law is given to Moses.
The Law only made us Conscience of sin but sin was continuous.
God required blood for sins because life is in the blood.
The priest offered sacrifices for sins of the people, and then offered sacrifices for themselves, and did that year after year.
Over time God was forgotten
Law test was the key failure to Israel that led to them to be exiled for over 2000 years.
The law was God’s limitation with man.
Another limitation, was that Moses and 72 elders had to share the holy spirit but had to give it back to only 1 who was Moses.
Only 1 could be anointed. Thus only 1 knew what God wanted.
Isaiah 53 Talks about a Man who ransomed us. Through blood.
This is the provision.
No prophets to bring us news.
But God living in us.
The Immanuel – עִמָּנוּאֵל ” God with Us”.
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
did your god create blood and flesh for himself or did the invisible god become blood and flesh?
Dina,
When God spoke to Abraham accompanied with 2 other Angels; Did he not come in the form of a Man? If so, would it be okay to worship him?
Did he not speak with him God face to face-
Dina what is your explanation for this?
I’m sure Moses took off his sandals because he was that he was on holy ground-
The form is irrelevant – the Image of God is apparent-
Dina, what is God’s form?
Hey, Bibs:
You didn’t answer my question. If God manifested as a bush, would it be okay to worship the bush (or the Bush)? Why or why not?
You asked, “Dina, what is God’s form?”
The question is irrelevant because Deuteronomy 4 teaches that we are not to associate God with any form whatsoever. So it makes no difference if you can find six jillion Scriptural instances where God appears as a man (He doesn’t, by the way–you are misreading the text–but I’m just saying for argument’s sake). It makes no difference because we must still worship God only according to the knowledge of Himself and His commands that He imparted to us at Sinai.
As usual, it’s very simple.
Dina,
Let us not use opinions. But scripture.
Apply scripture to where Abraham didn’t talk to the Lord as a man.
Next, Are we made in Gods image?
If God manifested in a image other than what we were created in…
Unless your scripture says we were made in the bush image.
He spoke within a bush.
Lastly, Deuteronomy 4:
We didn’t make or form anything.
The messiah to come would come as a man. Do you agree?
Is there salvation outside of God? Can he achieve salvation for himself?
You’ll go back Deuteronomy 4 but nothing has been made by us.
If God has no form what image are we made in?
Basically what your saying is this-
God cannot come in the image he created us in.
Bible 819 It is not what Dina is saying – it is what God is saying and he is saying that if it wasn’t there at Sinai then it is spiritual adultery for us to worship it 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Bible 819 If a man would come in the form of a woman would it be appropriate for another woman to marry her? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
YourPhariseeFriend:
And God created man in (His own image,) in the (image of God )created him; male and female created them.
And the LORD appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed down to the earth,
(Abraham bowed before that Man-Lord as he knew that he was God)
Then you will refer to
for ye saw (no manner of form) on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire— 16 lest ye deal corruptly, and (make) you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female.
I believe that God came in the form of Man. As he did with Adam and Abraham.
Besides- I, even I, am the LORD, And there is (no savior) besides Me.
The (Holy One of Israel), and (his Maker.)
There might just a Maker for God.
As far as the Form of the woman comment-
Adam was formed first and then woman came from the man.
Flesh of my Flesh-
They married-
The 2 became 1 flesh.
bible 819 Who is God’s witness? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
What is the Hebrew word for image and the Hebrew meaning.
“Would Israel listen to God if he came to them himself? When have they ever listened?”
The people served the LORD throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had seen all the great things the LORD had done for Israel.
For the rest, unfortunately, you are warned that you worshipped a false god that cannot save… If you turn from your sin you will live, if not you will die…
But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.
The Real Messianic-
Does blood atone for sin?
Yes.
You believe the Isaiah 53 is Israel.
1 would have to think with all the their adulteries:
That God would use their disobedience as an exampleto the world
As we all know that 1 (Adam) condemned us.
I believe that Isaiah 53 is the 1 man who God used to ransom us all.
I have elected to be ransomed. Thus a provision of mercy.
Turning from your sins, is electing the provision that God has placed forth.
The servant is Gods provision. The intercessor.
God is the Judge. You have elected the Law.
I have elected mercy.
Bible 819 If God is the judge you should choose what He commands you to choose not what you choose to choose 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
yourphariseefriend:
The Servant in Isaiah 53 says that many will be ransomed.
(Not all)
I have chose or have been chosen to be ransomed with the one who was cut off from the land of the living. But now he sees his offspring.
Abraham blessed all nations.
God is our Judge.
I have elected the intercessor to intercede on my behalf.
You have elected the Law with no provision.
Bible 819 Isaiah 53 says nothing about ransom 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Sorry, G-d said Israel is righteous:
This is the heritage of the servants (ISRAEL) of the Lord,
And their righteousness is from Me,”
Says the Lord.
I chose to follow a merciful G-d, you chose a non-god bible819.
You didn’t answer my question. If God manifested as a bush, would it be okay to worship the bush (or the Bush)? Why or why not?
Dina, you answered your own question earlier. If that bush (or the malach in it,) served as G-d’s agent, it could speak the very words of G-d, could say, “I say this is the word you must follow,” or “I have heard the cries of my children in Egypt,” and Moses would listen intently and Obey the message he heard from that bush without deviating to the right or left. He would lower his head to the ground honorably, and say, “Yes hashem, I will do as you ask,” without batting even an eyelash. Why? Because he heard G-d’s voice coming from that bush.
Does this thought process change in the least the FACT that a man (to any outside observer) is bowing to a bush? Does it change in the least the fact that Moses believes an intelligible voice is emanating from a bush that he believes he must obey?
The Christian who prays in Jesus’ name (is to his experience) DOING nothing different than Moses. Does the Christian believe in Jesus only, or does Moses believe in the bush only? Or is the relationship strictly defined (so that despite Jesus’ title as G-d,) he is treated just like the agent in that bush?
Is praying in someone’s name or merit forbidden? Or do not people go to the graves of various righteous people and ask them to speak to hashem? Are their not instances in Talmud where someone says, “come to my grave on such and such occasion, and I will do X?”
The person that says “I don’t pray to this entity” while DOING all of the above actions makes this argument absurd.
Let me help explain what it is I am getting at.
Whether one is a Jew (who rejects a trinity) or a Christian (who accepts one,) there are certain points of agreement on how a situation like the burning bush, or how an interaction with Jesus should go down despite the theological differences.
If “Jesus” came to earth and said “I alone am Hashem,” “I come in my own name,” or “give me honor that is my due” (as did the prince of Tyre,) Jews and Christians alike would be united in telling this individual to go suck eggs. (revelation 13)
If however he acted as an agent and said, “I do nothing in my own name,” and “it is my Job to put all things into hashem’s hands,” we could agree that such a one is being an agent of hashem.
“The Christian who prays in Jesus’ name (is to his experience) DOING nothing different than Moses. Does the Christian believe in Jesus only, or does Moses believe in the bush only? Or is the relationship strictly defined (so that despite Jesus’ title as G-d,) he is treated just like the agent in that bush?”
but if you and christians use the “only” argument , then lets start bowing down before everything that the eye can see. why shouldn’t we? if we allow for one we must allow for all. since god enters time and is held by time, then lets worship that which holds him. why limit the pixy dust to bush, jesus, cloud and other thing?
chronicles 29.20, 22b-23:
20 Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless Yahweh your God.” And all the assembly blessed Yahweh, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and worshiped Yahweh and the king. …. 22b And they made Solomon the son of David king a second time, and they anointed him as ruler for the Lord and Zadok as priest. 23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of Yahweh as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.
do you think the king was divine? the guys here are thinking the king was:
“Possible indications that the king was regarded as divine….”
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2266
“The Christian who prays in Jesus’ name (is to his experience) DOING nothing different than Moses. Does the Christian believe in Jesus only, or does Moses believe in the bush only? Or is the relationship strictly defined (so that despite Jesus’ title as G-d,) he is treated just like the agent in that bush?”
My response- Pure BS. Christians do NOT believe they are addressing the Father “through Jesus’ when they pray TO Jesus. Praying “in Jesus’ name” is a generic tag added to prayers taken from the NT “if you ask for anything in my name it will be granted” ( another lie, BTW) . Moses did not “pray to a bush”, or in the “bush’s name”. There was no “Oh God, I pray in this bush’s name”. Any child understands that. But evangelical Christian children are taught from earliest days to begin prayers with “Dear Jesus” and that “Jesus” and “God” are synonymous. The movie “Jesus of Nazareth”, a very catholic film, includes Jesus saying “I and my father are one and the same”. MANY Christians teach that when God speaks in the Tanakh, it is actually Jesus speaking.
There is no equivalency here.
Fred
How many time have you heard “In Jesus Name” Then there is the whole of John 1. Jesus is the word and all was created throug the word. Jesus is the creator the way I read it.
At Sinai, If G-d had just put on a great fire and light show and not used any words. As you can clearly see the words are the building blocks here.
John 1:1 is the most freely translated and interpreted verse in the NT. I am not debating what the NT teaches, but what Christians believe and do as a lifelong Christian and member of several different denominations- Catholic and Protestant. I have heard “In Jesus name” thousands of times, and used it myself thousands of times. Again, it is a tag line thrown on at the end because “Jesus said to do it”. I have heard prayers that begin “Dear Jesus”, and end in “in Jesus name” and everything in between. Now people are praying to the holy ghost as well.
Truth be known, Christians have no clue what to do with the trinity, and never have. They know they MUST believe it to be considered Christians, but they have no clue how to make it make any sense. Nor do they have any clue as to how to address this trinitarian deity in a way that puts the “persons” ion proper perspective. Not even the most learned theologian has any idea. But make no mistake, nobody believes that Jesus is a “lesser God” than the Father, or they would be disfellowshipped from any “non-cult” Christian group. Jesus is NEVER considered “only a conduit to the one God who is the Father”. He is considered by Christianity to be completely co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and one third of the Godhead.
Yes, John 1:1 appears to say that, depending on the translation. And yes, it can be interpreted to say that God used Jesus as a representative creative method. But no Christian would say that such a subordination is any way indicative of a lesser condition, or position.
But to make the equivalence that is being made, i.e., “In the beginning was the bush and the bush was with God and the bush was God” , and therefore Moses was worshiping the bush ( and would have taught others to worship the bush) “as God” the way Christians worship Jesus as God is poppycock, and does not portray a Jewish theological paradigm whatsoever. Rav B can correct me if I err on this point.
Gut Shabbos everyone!
Fred, to clarify its not an exact equivalence, but its a way of handling the same contradiction. If (both Jews and Christians) wish to call themselves monotheists, but both groups in their various texts have some angel or agent that is not the father being called “G-d”, in some sense, then there has to be a way to reconcile that.
Judaism’s reconciliation is the notion of agency. Christianity’s reconciliation is the trinity. Christians don’t claim to fully understand the trinity, (and never have,) that’s why they call it the mystery of the trinity.
As you said, you can interpret the NT as saying that Jesus was subordinate, (but only in function as son, not in divine nature, although everyone agrees the human nature was subordinate.)
You know the trinitarian creed says the son is not the father right? The functional subordination is Jesus’ place as son of the father. The very title of son suggests functional subordination.
A Christian site said, “(1) God is one indivisible being in three persons; (2) each of the three persons is the whole God, one in being, equal in power and glory; (3) the persons mutually indwell one another;1 (4) while any act of God is particularly attributable to one Trinitarian person, all three work together indivisibly in all God’s works, and, since will is a predicate of nature (thus Christ has two wills, a divine and a human), God has ONE INDIVISIBLE WILL; and (5) there is an IRREVERSIBLE ORDER between the persons—the Father sends the Son, the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit; this order in relation to creation reflects an eternal order— the Father generates the Son and spirates (or breathes out) the Holy Spirit in the Son.”http://www.equip.org/article/is-the-son-eternally-submissive-to-the-father/
The father sends the son. Jesus is the one who is sent, ie the agent of the father. For the Christians, this is an eternal relation. Even those who disagree with eternal subordination believe that (since Jesus is G-d,) his will is one with the father’s will, so that Jesus would be subject to the divine will that he shares.
I’m not trying to make this make sense to you, I’m saying, if you want a Christian to respect your definitions, you should be ready to respect theirs in relation to their own understanding of their own faith, even if you disagree. You want them to do the same, so you should do the same.
“My response- Pure BS. Christians do NOT believe they are addressing the Father…
excellent
Christians believe they are addressing a son who is an agent of his father.
“he does not need to seek permission to access it.”
On what level do you mean permission? He has a unity of will (as Logos) And what difference does it make when your own explanation allows an agent to be “god” by leave?
John 14:28; Phil 2:6-11; 1 Cor 11:3; 15:28 all plainly teach the eternal subordination of the Son (John 14 and 1 Cor 11 speak of his present subordination; Phil 2 speaks of his subordination in eternity past; and 1 Cor 15 speaks of his subordination in eternity future).
According to all orthodox christian denominations the members of the trinity have unity of will. Jesus (while he has access to divine nature) sets aside his use of it, ie he is treated as an agent, and the NT contrasts Jesus’ subordination to the father as an agent with a figure who is seeking his own glory (revelation 13)
My point is, whatever your explanation is, the text has all the DNA in it needed to make their theology.
Pure BS is a way of not answering. At least rabbi B answered.
Rabbi B: You are right, it is a matter of relationship. The Jewish people are commanded to observe Torah. A Christian doesn’t have to disagree there.
The father rules all things A Christian does not have to disagree there.
You may teach Torah to a Christian, and he can learn from it.
Con, it’s really very simple. God taught us the mode of proper worship. Therefore, it makes no difference what other agents say, whether they speak in the name of God or act as His mouthpiece or whatever. The Torah teaches this very clearly. Only people who have already given their hearts away in false worship are confused.
“he does not need to seek permission to access it.”
what does subordination mean? that god is impotent and dysfunctional ? so when jesus “subordinate” why didn’t he point to the sky and tell people to worship the father who was fully functional? why do christians have him point at himself and have him worshipped?
“According to all orthodox christian denominations the members of the trinity have unity of will. Jesus (while he has access to divine nature) sets aside his use of it,”
god has access to his divine nature but sets it aside. why didn’t he tell people to worship the father? why did he say ” i am ” ?
but orthodox christianity say he can switch into mode 2 any time he pleased.
but he still points to himself even though he sets asides “use of it”
what have you done to god man?
that his powers can latch on and latch off? what is this? so when god is in disabled mode, why he seek people to worship him in human form?
That’s all part of the “great” mystery of the plural unity of the tri-une god. Nobody understand it… and it’s nowhere in the Tanakh.
“Jesus (while he has access to divine nature) sets aside his use of it, ie he is treated as an agent, and the NT contrasts Jesus’ subordination to the father as an agent with a figure who is seeking his own glory (revelation 13)”
when the christian worships the man jesus they are not seeing an agent but god in flesh.they offering cultic worship to man jesus.
you just can’t have invisible being become man and remain “unfused” to the flesh.
god literally became physical and measurable item. his invisible became visible
his invisible being became weak and created.
but if you and Christians use the “only” argument , then lets start bowing down before everything that the eye can see. Everything that exists is not an agent is it?
Apart from being a reductio ad absurdum fallacy, The Christian has Jesus already defined into an agent relationship with the G-d of the Bible, just like the Tanakh has with its own agent figures. Let’s expand your question. Do Christians (who listen to their texts directives) pray to natural phenomenon? Do the Christians even believe that nature is something that contains sparks of G-d within it? (a gnostic position?) No they don’t. To them, the incarnation was a “once for all” event. Why would a Jew bow towards a burning bush and not any other bushes? Because he is dealing (in that situation) with an agent who is speaking G-d’s words.
Judaism itself uses the term “divine” in several ways. There are agents who are.”divine” in the sense of a “unique godly soul,” You bow to them, you must obey them or possibly face death, etc.
Why stop at bushes? Why not ask the Tanakh the question, “why start a revelation with bushes or clouds?” Answer that, and you will have answered your own question.
“Everything that exists is not an agent is it?
” Do the Christians even believe that nature is something that contains sparks of G-d within it? (a gnostic position?) No they don’t. To them, the incarnation was a “once for all” event. Why would a Jew bow towards a burning bush and not any other bushes? Because he is dealing (in that situation) with an agent who is speaking G-d’s words.”
in the past some jews thought :
quote:
In Greek circles there were religions that maintained that Sophia was indeed a divine being. She (the word Sophia in Greek is feminine, so the divine being is always imagined as female) is especially prominent in forms of Gnosticism. But Sophia also came to be thought of as a (subservient) divine being in Jewish circles as well. Speculation on Sophia begins with the Hebrew Bible, especially Proverbs 8. Read it and you’ll see: “Wisdom” is said to have been with God in the beginning when he created all things, and to have participated with God in the creation (since he made all things using his wisdom). In fact, she is said to be the master creator herself through whom God created and even God’s consort in the beginning. In some Jewish circles Sophia, then, came to be thought of as not simply something people have, but as a divine hypostasis that is in the world. This view probably came to influence the Gospel of John, for whom a male hypostasis – the Logos (or “Word”) – was with God in the beginning, was himself God, yet was distinct from God, and was the one through whom all things were made (see John 1:1-3).
http://ehrmanblog.org/readers-weekly-mailbag-january-2-2016/
so let me see
christians believe that jesus has full access to the SAME divine nature as his father and he does not need to seek permission to access it.
quote:
then, came to be thought of as not simply something people have, but as a divine hypostasis that is in the world.
your religion was influenced:
This view probably came to influence the Gospel of John, for whom a male hypostasis – the Logos (or “Word”) – was with God in the beginning, was himself God, yet was distinct from God, and was the one through whom all things were made
con wrote:
the incarnation was a “once for all” event.
my reply : it don’t stop people from turning created into divine does it?
Bart January 3, 2016
I’m not saying that I think Sophia is a divine being in Proverbs 8, but that this is how the passage came to function in later Jewish reflection. There are indeed numerous Jewish texts that understand there to be other divine beings along with God I deal with all this in my book How Jesus Became God.
Robert 2016 Christianity is not my religion.
’m not saying that I think Sophia is a divine being in Proverbs 8, but that this is how the passage came to function in later Jewish reflection. There are indeed numerous Jewish texts that understand there to be other divine beings along with God I deal with all this in my book How Jesus Became God.
Precisely. There were Jewish antecedents before there were any Christians even in existence.
yeah , ehrman talks about this in his latest book.
CR
This is your book?
Do you have a link to buy it?
No Larry, its not my book. I have read Ehrman’s books though.
“Do Christians (who listen to their texts directives) pray to natural phenomenon? Do the Christians even believe that nature is something that contains sparks of G-d within it? ”
why shouldn’t they? how can pixy dust fill body of jesus but remain apart from everything else?
Concerned Reader Worship is a relationship – there needs to be a root to the relationship. There needs to be an appeal an attraction a trigger – why do I love God? not why in the sense of logic but why in the sense of love. Is this like I love hamburgers? like I love my boss? my pet? my spouse? my child? – each of these is a different love. The bush, the tabernacle, the pillar of cloud have nothing to do with the motivation of the love – Jesus does. Therefore the Christian relationship with Jesus is spiritual adultery while the Jew never saw himself in a relationship with a bush/cloud/tabernacle. All of your philosophical curiosities have nothing to do with relationship.
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Exactly rabbi, and the way they (Christians) define their relationship to G-d makes clear that the father is at the head. 1 Corinthians 11:3. Jesus is the means to an end for them.
Concerned Reader not “define relationship” I am talking of “inspire love” 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
yourphariseefriend:
Our relationship with God was bought at a price.
1 sinned and we all died.
The law was given- Made us conscious of sin.
No one followed the Law.- Led to exile and no temple.
1 innocent and all lived.- Its called mercy.
Blood atones for sin.
God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son-
Thus he become the Father of us All.
No prophet who spoke Gods word was ever listened to.
God came to us, and we killed him.
But we believe that to his Glory he was resurrected.
That is true love.
Our righteousness is but Filthy rags to God.
No more blood sacrifices to atone for sin.
bible 819 in what way are we God’s witnesses? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
any reason given in the jewish bible why the temple would be destroyed? any specific reason?
“Our righteousness is but Filthy rags to God.”
but if that is the thinking of the author of the psalms then he would have said that God is unknowable, distant and a bloody go between would be required to have relationship with this unknwable god. the psalm seem to be saying that “filthy rags” can have a relationship with god WITHOUT a trinity
“Christians believe they are addressing a son who is an agent of his father.”
Baloney, CR. 99% of Christians believe when Jesus said “I and my Father are one” he literally meant just that, and there is no subordination other than the willing condescension of taking on human flesh, while still maintaining FULL equality as one third of the godhead, worthy of worship in his own right AS God ( God forbid!). Anything else is not “orthodoxy” and is considered cultic. I researched and then debated this issue for years, against the top PhD-holding theologians in my denomination and others. I know for which I speak on this topic.
To correct your statement, “Christians believe they are addressing ‘God the son’, who is co-equally and co-eternally one hypostasis of the three hypostases God.” And regardless of what sound bites you can dig up, this is the accepted Christian position and the ONLY accepted position within orthodoxy. To the Christian, the words “father” and “son” have no meaning in the literal sense where God is concerned.
Perhaps you should consider naming which denomination you are representing with your statements, since much of what you are presenting are not the doctrines of current Evangelical or Roman Catholic Christian Orthodoxy.
other than the WILLING condescension of taking on human flesh, while still maintaining FULL equality as one third of the godhead, worthy of worship in his own right AS God ( God forbid!).
When you said willing condescension, that’s because they call him SON. He is the eternally begotten, that’s why he’s not the father. This willing Condescension conveys various teachings that they all agree on.
1. unity of will between persons
2. an eternal order of relation
3. A voluntary submission of Jesus. (Sects and orthodoxies merely disagree as to the duration of submission.) Nobody however denies that while Jesus is human, he is subordinate as the “second Adam.”
Whether or not Jesus’ nature is subordinate, his will is always described as obedient to the father.
4. The New Testament itself has an “anti Christ” figure who is essentially the Roman emperor Nero, or a later Jesus type replica. In that tradition, what marks Jesus as the “good guy” is his devotion and obedience to the father and his will.
So, whatever the internal theological discussion is, they all agree on fundamental things, even when they sharply disagree about other things.
One good way to understand the internal Christian debate over subordination is to ask a simple question.
What problems do Christians have with subordination? Is it the notion of being obedient to the father that they find problematic? No, as that is something they all agree on.
The answer is, subordination leads to an inadvertent belief in gradations of deity. It all comes down to the question, can a being that is not G-d by nature call itself G-d?
If yes, then every form of classical idolatry has a footing for their theology. If there are sparks of G-d, or angels that can call themselves G-d by metaphor, then religions like Hinduism with its doctrine that every soul is Brahman has some footing in pagan polemic against monotheism.
As the NT says, “there are gods many and lords many, but for us there is one G-d and one lord.”
christians believe that the son has the same knowledge, sight, power and hearing as the father.
so what does he become subordinate too if he shares in everything his father has?
if you are subordinating the son are you making him disabled?
subordinate
adjective
səˈbɔːdɪnət/
1.
lower in rank or position.
so the way to distinguish between the father and son is that the son has “off mode” in his “what” while the fathers “what” which is the same “what” as the son stays in “on mode” ?
are you telling the jews here that they can serve, call out to and use as intermediary this “off mode” god?
I’m not telling Jews that they have to believe in or do anything.
Robert 2016
The Father is a Spirit Being.
In order for God to get a message to the people he had speak through prophets.
( God’s Word)
But a man couldn’t take the burden. I.e. Elijah couldn’t take the persecution so he asked God to take him up before he died.
With that said, For God to attain salvation for himself he used Israels’ Disobedience to bring all nations to him.
Yes once again he used flesh to get his message across to people but this time it was someone who knew him from the beginning.
Yes the Son did exactly what the Father did because the Father is a spirit being.
Israel is not God’s righteousness or his right arm. They never have listened to him.
As is it is written:
he Lord looked and was displeased
that there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
(so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.
17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
and the helmet of salvation on his head;)
he put on the garments of vengeance
and (wrapped himself in zeal )as in a cloak.- (God came down to us)
Christians believe-
That Christ is the exact representation of God.
Loving and faithful.
I do could you could deny his righteousness?
You’ll say a man can’t be God- But God came as a man to Abraham.
Is the Messiah supposed to be a man?
You believe that the Messiah will be man.
We believe God is the Messiah- No man is righteous outside of God.
bible 819 Please answer my question – Why does God call Israel His witnesses? What are we testifying about? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
yourphariseefriend:
bible 819 Please answer my question – Why does God call Israel His witnesses? What are we testifying about? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
They are witness and testifying about their own disobedience in which Glorifies God because he will save them and gather them from where they are dispersed.
Isaiah 49- reaffirms this as he talks about a servant who will bring Israel back to himself, and be light to the gentiles.
Highlight-
Israel has disobeyed God.
God is doing a new thing.
Saving Israel while bringing a light to the Gentiles- a new covenant
Isaiah 53 confirms this by saying-
We all, like sheep , have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way,
and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
This took on iniquities of all- a new covenant-
Answer to your question- Witnessing about Israel disobedience- How he is God and not the things they formed with their hands.
Unless you can find that they are witnessing about their own righteousness which was non existent.
They are being punished.
Just read the text about the Witnesses.
bible 819 Did it occur to you that when God says that someone is His witness that you should believe them? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
MyPharisee-
bible 819 Did it occur to you that when God says that someone is His witness that you should believe them? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
God explaining how disobedient Israel is fully absorbed in Isaiah.
Best thing about Isaiah is that he speaks of a new thing-
A new thing that doesn’t a require a third temple or animal sacrifices.
A new covenant that brings gentiles and Israel all under his Salvation.
All sins were placed on his servant.
Isaiah 53 talks about a servant spoke no deceit but was crushed.
Israel was very disobedient and were soon exiled.
They don’t fit the requirement of innocent nor able to bear anyone’s sin.
Because of your sins you were sold;
because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.
2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to deliver you?
Was my arm to short?????
bible 819 You didn’t answer my question – but I will ask you another one – who is the nation that “keepeth the truth” of Isaiah 26:2? Who was hoping for God in Isaiah 25:9 and 49:23? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Maybe you should read ALL the prophets as Ezekiel DOES speak of a Third Temple AND animal sacrifices.
“I do could you could deny his righteousness?”
can you tell me one sin john the baptist did.
“You’ll say a man can’t be God- But God came as a man to Abraham.
We believe God is the Messiah- No man is righteous outside of God.”
can you tell me even one sin john the baptist did?
“god came as a man” so you would say that your messiah is god? all of god? part of god?
Robert2016-
You do believe a messiah will come-
You believe he will come as a man-
We also believe that a messiah has come-
We believe he came as God.
But once again, you believe when the Messiah comes he will be a man to bring on the Messianic era.
We believe that the Messiah is God.
Unless you don’t believe a messiah will come.
“You do believe a messiah will come-”
i’m not jewish
”
We believe he came as God.”
but god = trinity , not messiah. jesus is not god according to concerned reader or trinitarians. you mean god was a man?
Robert2016-
Do you believe a messiah will come?
I don’t know what others believe-
I know for sure that God used flesh to speak his words.
I know for sure that Israel never listened.
I know for sure that 1 Hebrew died on a Cross- and 2000 years later many count him as God.
We believe that the Messiah is God.
Spoke Gods words and was crucified- Raised to life- no more blood sacrifices.
Just an idea- What Prophet wasn’t persecuted for speaking Gods word.
Name one?
bible 819 Samuel, Gad, Nathan, Joshua, Debora, Esther, Haggai, Malachi,
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
If “Messiah IS G-d” then why does he “Fear” G-d.
“Spoke Gods words and was crucified- Raised to life- no more blood sacrifices.”
i thought the blood sacrifices continued after the death of your god?
How do you account for the fact there will be “blood sacrifices”, including for sin, in the Third Temple times.
Sharbano-
God in Isaiah said that he wasn’t pleased with animal sacrifices.
He reiterates this by saying that he is doing a new thing- opposite of animal sacrifices.
And again by saying- The Immanuel, the new covenant, salvation brought to the gentiles, the servant who had sins laid on him for us all.
Whether the third temple is built and animals are given-
God doesn’t want it.
bible 819 So how do you explain Isaiah 56:7 and 60:7? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Fred:
God used Moses- spoke through him. and continue down the line of prophets.
They denied the message.
The result is this-
No prophets have been sent for nearly 2000 years.
Christ was the last.
Shortly after Christ- the 2nd temple was destroyed and they were exiled.
Since then, what started in Jerusalem has spread through the whole world- Christianity.
Yes, we believe that there is no Messiah other than God himself.
God has always used flesh to speak his message.
The Christ said he was 1 with the Father due to the fact that
the Father is a spirit Being.
Christ Name, his servant nature, and representation is God.
That is loving, gentle, kind, and merciful.
God was patient with Israel. They didn’t listen.
Then He attained it himself-
” the 2nd temple was destroyed and they were exiled.”
if the disciples were worshipping a man god in that temple and god knew that later christians would use animal temple sacrifices as base line for their story is there possibility that the destruction was because of jewish christian idolatry?
just a thought i had.
Do you really think that after was Christ was crucified, and the disciples were butchered in Jerusalem, that Christ was worshiped there?
No apostle stayed in Jerusalem if they were trying to stay alive.
who told you they were butchered?
Google the account of the apostles in Jerusalem- I’m that might answer your question. As far as someone telling me- Research
acts says they did stay there.
Does it say they stayed there Robert2016? Who stayed there?
“No apostle stayed in Jerusalem if they were trying to stay alive.”
are you sure?
The ones that stayed- were stoned, boil, saw in half, and crucified. As you know the Christ was crucified as well.
bullshit
Acts 5:33
Acts 5:26, 4:21-22
Acts 21:17
reading these texts, did the disciples go into jewish temple and tell the jews to worship a man called jesus and that he replaced jewish animal offerings?
Galatians 1-2
so the hQ exists in jerusalem . what’s going on?
you can spin in circle all you want but what you cannot avoid is that your “holy” new testament says that jewish law was used to execute your god
in temple christians must’ve preached that “yhwh” was sacrificed .
so what does God do? he demolishes the temple because he knew that christian idolatry which began in jewish temple spread like disease all over the world. God knows the future and to cut the base he destroys jesus and the temple.
the women are errand girls who just convey message and are not heard from again
all these characters just disappear and none of them produce post resurrected god .
something is very fishy with your “holy” new testament.
Robert2016-
Or maybe…
They were exiled again for there own disobedience.
If they were right with God-
2000 years would not be there sentence-
Hello again Robert2016,
Your point here is well taken.
Despite his name, “bible819” is, with all due respect, an ignoramus about the Bible.
Acts 8:1 says:
“On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all EXCEPT THE APOSTLES were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.”
There is also Acts 15, all about “The Council at Jerusalem….”
Matthew Perri-
Very opinionated with no substantiation-
Please point out where you think I misspoke-
Dear Robert2016,
You are right – the “new testament” is not “holy” – but Yeshua the Jewish Messiah of the Gospels is holy. So never mind about Paul the Pharisee, the self-appointed “Apostle to the Gentiles” who was wrong about so many things. Never mind the whole “New Testament.”
You can start listening to the voice of Yeshua, Jesus, recorded by His faithful eyewitnesses, the Jewish Apostles Matthew and John in their Gospels.
” So never mind about Paul the Pharisee, the self-appointed “Apostle to the Gentiles” who was wrong about so many things”
hello
why do you think paul was wrong? according to many christians he had a vision which agreed with what the disciples believed.
Looks like we have another “Christian” who is not a Christian, and comes here to defend Christianity by denying its most core beliefs.
Fred,
Modern “Christianity” is in large part revived Marcionism – you could call it Paulism – and it’s “core beliefs” come from Paul the Pharisee, not from Yeshua (Jesus) of the Gospels.
Here are the core beliefs of Yeshua, in his own words –
Jesus was asked twice which Commandment is the greatest or most important one, (Matthew 22 and Mark 12)
Both times Jesus answered quoting the same two commandments, from the Law of Moses.
Jesus said that one of these two commandments is the first and greatest most important one. Which one is it? The one in Deuteronomy 6, or the one in Leviticus 19 ?
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “ is this: ‘Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ [Mark 12:29-30, Deuteronomy 6:4-5]
Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.” [Matthew 22:37-38, Deuteronomy 6:5]
In other words, Jesus (Yeshua) quoted The Shema. Do you think He was wrong?
Matthew, you clearly learned nothing from your earlier sojourn on this blog.
If you take away Paul and his teachings and claim your messiah has people follow Torah Then there is No purpose in following him. He is of No consequence. We have a Torah WITHOUT your man.
Robert2016,
As the Torah reminds us, “let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”
Any man can come along an say “I had a vision” or “God told me this and it’s the word of God.” Paul did it. Muhammad did it. That is the recipe for a cult or false religion.
As The Prophet Isaiah exhorts us 8:20
“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.”
“Many Christians” are listening to the voice of Paul the Pharisee, and ignoring the voice of Yeshua (Jesus of the Gospels) the Jewish Messiah. Do you know where the term ‘Christian” originated?
“Acts 11:26…..The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch….” right after Luke mentions Saul – Paul teaching there.
So never mind about “Christians”. You can read Acts 8 for example, and see that the followers of Yeshua were doing just fine without Paul and his false teaching. The message of the true apostles was going out to Gentiles too, long before Paal.
do you think paul is lying to the gentile christians when he tells them that he used to persecute followers of jesus except the main leaders?
i think paul is clearly making stuff up . he said it was difficult to sell the crucifixion of his god to the jews, but peter is able to get converts when he does his speech in acts. speech which sounds very pauline, but doesn’t have infatuation with crucifix . maybe not all christians were putting emphasis on crucifixion like paul did? paul wanted to know nothing but a crucified god. maybe pauls thinking was not shared by the christians in jerusalem?
robert2016
Yes, “paul is clearly making stuff up.”
Many many times. About half of the Book of Acts is basically Luke’s biography of Paul, and Luke exposes a number of Paul’s fabrications, exaggerations, hypocrisy, and clear disobedience. Compare Paul’s Damascus Road Experience in Acts 9 with Paul making stuff up in Acts 22 & 26, to promote himself and appear to be someone great..
Greetings Dina 😉 and Sharbano.
One can observe in these few comments here that I am the one quoting The Torah and The Prophets, while you are not… So I wonder which of us is more “Torah Observant…..”
Why don’t we consider “most core beliefs” as Fred was referring to?
I’m not asking you to agree with everything Yeshua of the Gospels said right now- I’m just asking a simple question.
Yeshua said that what you call “The Shema,” from the Torah Deuteronomy 6 is the “Most Important Commandment”. Do you agree on this one point – yes or no?
Quoting Torah makes you Torah observant.???
One cannot base acceptance of a man simply because he espouses a few words of Torah. Instead look at the totality of the man. How many times did he go Against the Torah of Moshe. He would teach Torah that says this and this BUT I teach this, in direct contradiction to Torah teaching. Torah DOES teach about those who teach against Torah.
Dear Sharbano, you wrote, QUOTE:
“Quoting Torah makes you Torah observant.???”
NO.
But refusing to quote Torah in a discussion about Torah is a clue that you may not really be as “Torah observant” as you might claim to be. I’m not judging or condemning, just observing and evaluating.
Yeshua did not “go against the Torah of Moshe.” You seem to be referring to a few passages out of context from the Sermon on the Mount in Gospel of Matthew, but I can’t address your points specifically since I don’t know what they are. Near the beginning of that sermon Yeshua said:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Matthew 5:17-20]
That is sure a “clever” statement. He did not come to “abolish” Torah but apparently DID come to rewrite the Torah of Moshe. You cannot spin your way around it, he says discount what Torah says and instead follow my way. I wouldn’t call That Torah observant. Certainly he didn’t ‘fulfill’ his Torah obligations.
Dear Sharbano,
I see you are reacting to what the “Priests of Paal” have been preaching at you. They are otherwise known as “Bible-believing Evangelical Christians” many times….. They follow their idol, Paul the Pharisee, the self-appointed “Apostle to the Gentiles” who taught that Jesus “abolished the Law.” They are wrong. Jesus never said that. If you can point out some specific passages of Torah, Prophets, or Gospels, that you have issues with, I can address those. Blessings following Yeshua
Who said anything about Paul. It is your man, in his own words. He quotes a line of Torah then says, instead I say this. He directly and succinctly contradicts what Torah specifically says. It is the same when it comes to divorce. Torah lays down the laws and he disputes them. You cannot spin your way out of this.
Dear Sharbano,
Great, let’s focus on Yeshua the Jewish Messiah of the Gospels – not Paal.
You wrote, QUOTE:
“It is the same when it comes to divorce. Torah lays down the laws and he disputes them.”
It seems clear you are referring to Gospel of Matthew 19:3-9.
Do you believe that what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 24:1 overrides and abolishes what is written in the Torah in Genesis chapters 1 & 2 about God creating us male and female, and marriage?
What? Do you think Moshe just made things up. G-d TOLD Moshe What to write down. Therefore your man goes against G-d and His Torah. Notice what it is called In Torah and When it is called Torah of Moshe.
Sharbano,
I see that what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 24:1 is not in perfect harmony with the Torah that came through Moses in Genesis chapters 1 & 2 about God creating us male and female, and marriage.
Which of these two sections of the Torah is more important – Genesis chapters 1 & 2, or Deuteronomy 24:1 ?
Gee Whiz!
What does it say? The Torah is about the Laws that Israel is to follow. Do you have a problem with laws instituted by G-d.
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” [Genesis 1:27]
“The man said, ‘This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called “woman”, for she was taken out of man.”
“For this reason will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.” [Genesis 2:23-24]
Does someone here have a problem with the account of God’s creation in the first two chapters of the Torah? I believe the account in Genesis.
(Yes I also give Moses credit for compiling and “writing” Genesis – but I don’t believe Moses was hovering in outer space while God created the world, or sitting in a apple tree with is quill pen and a Torah scroll taking notes on Adam and Eve’s conversations…..)
You mean to tell us you cannot tell the difference between the two situations.
What your man does is completely ignore what G-d set down as law regarding this matter. The LAW that Israel was to follow from that point on, generation after generation. Furthermore, it is also a Torah that is NOT to be added to or subtracted from, which your man did. He didn’t Just subtract from it, he literally erased it.
This is the problem with Xtianity from the outset. We have too many situations like this. In fact, in this respect he is No different than Paul. It may even make the case that Paul WAS right and followed his messiah. If he would abrogate “parts” of Torah why not have Paul go even further. For certain he apparently had issues with the Torah of G-d.
In reality, the biggest problem with xtianity from the outset is that it doesn’t work as advertised. It makes promises it doesn’t keep. Jesus, John and Paul all build a foundation of “righteousness by faith”. That is, by believing in Jesus the “holy spirit” enables you to live a life that needs no yearly atonement by sacrifice. The weakness of Judaism, they say, is that it does not change the nature from a “carnal fallen nature” to the “nature of christ” that overcomes all sin, thus eliminating the need for animal sacrifices ( as if animal sacrifices are the only method of atonement).The Book of Hebrews, combined with Romans and the gospel of John, spells this out plainly.
This is the bottom line for Christianity. This “plan of salvation”, by first atoning for the past by a human sacrifice ( God forbid!) and then creating a new man who by the “indwelling christ” does not sin, either works or it doesn’t. These textual apologetic arguments are simply diversions away from the truth, which is that “xtianity” offers nothing tangible, or anything that changes a person enough to not need a continual sacrifice of some kind- by Christianity’s own measure.
In the end, xtianity ends up in the practical sense as something with man’s laws instead of God’s, pagan holidays instead of God’s holy days, and the same method of atonement as Judaism: You screw up, you repent, you make it right and then you move on and try to do better next time.
That is the truth regardless of whatever may be said to the contrary by those who either do not understand NT Christianity or are purposefully turning Christian orthodoxy on its head.
Fred-
If human sacrifices were ( God forbid!).
What of Abraham son?
(your son, your only son, whom you love,) Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a (burnt offering) on one of the mountains of which I will tell you-
What about the priest who offered animals sacrifices year after year after year.
Then turned around offered sacrifices for themselves year after year after year.
End result- Exiled for 2000 years- The Law was temporary and then broken
Yea the “Plan of salvation” is mercy which is always better than sacrifices.
You can live under Law that is broken.
I’ll live in Grace which doesn’t depend on sacrifices.
Fred-When the third temple is built, you’ll need to offer animal sacrifices for your SINS.
Meanwhile I will pray onto mercy in which Christ spells this out plainly.
I am the LORD, I have called you in righteousness, I will also hold you by the hand and watch over you, And I will appoint you as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations.
In all started in Jerusalem- Covenant
“You can live under Law that is broken.
I’ll live in Grace which doesn’t depend on sacrifices.”
but it does. christian grace depends on the violent and bloody human sacrificial ritual and in your imagination you have to eat flesh, drink blood and think about nails fixing flesh to crosses. at the heart of your religion lay violent appeasement ritual .
you then have to obey church rituals which are derived from the violent one.
your relationship with your god is through a ritualistic murder. you are under bondage.
robert2016:
Your imagination not mine-
this cannot be imagination. you are under bondage and your entire religion has created ritualistic laws which derive from ritualistic murder.
every time you sin, you have to come in to “communion” with your god and beat your sin on jesus like wife beater. christians like you have a wife to beat on jesus christ. you have told yourself that you are free from consequences of your sin, but you are still living under the law of ritual sacrifice.
where as the torah told you to “learn to do right” you chose bondage of human sacrificial ritual.
Thanks for making my point. Yes, you will continue to pray onto mercy, just like the Jew does. The difference is your gospel does not bring you the perfection required ( as claimed by Paul) for standing in God’s presence according to your religion (remember,according to Christianity it is man’s inability to perfectly keep the law that required blood sacrifice ). You see, the Jew also believes he is saved by God’s grace, through prayer and repentance, JUST LIKE YOU. So you offer nothing that Judaism did not already possess.
As I said, you will contradict your faith every day of your life by claiming the “power of the gospel unto righteousness” and then showing that in reality it has no such power. Christians are no more “righteous” than anyone else in practice. That is a fact. And it is a fact that undermines the religion itself.
And speaking of covenant, read Ezekiel and Jeremiah about what the new covenant is. You will find it bears no resemblance to Christianity.
If demons submit to his name, and people are healed. That is power. By what name do you do these things. I haven’t witness any power under the Law. Power does come from Christ and a very personal relationship.-
Robert2016-As far as rituals-
Where in the new testament does it talk about bloody human sacrifices- What rituals are you describing. Your own imagination- nothing supports you without facts-
I only follow the bible.
You are badly mistaken.
Fred-
Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, “Cursed is the man who does not heed the words of this covenant.
The moment you went away from the Law in your life, you were cursed.
I’m under mercy which is circumcision of the heart. No bondage just a prayer.
For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.”
Matthew Perri:
Paul says:
If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4he is conceited and understands nothing.
and again
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousnes.
Peter testifies against you
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(Just as also our beloved brother PAUL, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,( in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.)
Matthew Perri:
( in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.)
You are denying God
“If demons submit to his name, and people are healed. That is power. By what name do you do these things. I haven’t witness any power under the Law. Power does come from Christ and a very personal relationship.-”
those demons didn’t submit to your god, they were playing with him. beelzebub had power to take your gods life and nail him to a cross.
“how can satan cast out satan” ?
by timing him to a cross and taking his life out of his flesh.
power and dominion over jesus christ. don’t play with the minions of satan.
“If demons submit to his name, and people are healed. That is power. By what name do you do these things. I haven’t witness any power under the Law. Power does come from Christ and a very personal relationship.-”
ha satan publicly humiliated and made everyone hear “my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?”
publicly. the onlookers were mocking and laughing.
don’t mess with satans minions.
Fred,
It’s clear you have had a lot of “NT Christians” preach PAAL at you, and you see some of the errors and flaws in their teaching. You raise a number of valid points, which I hope I can discuss with you.
But first, it would be good to have a common understanding about some terms you used.
.1) “Christian” is a term invented at the Church in Antioch in Acts chapter 11, (probably by Paul, but we can’t be sure), some years after the 3+ year ministry of Yeshua. There were many thousands of follower of Yeshua, “the Way and the Truth and the Life,” before Acts chapter 11.
.2) “New Testament” is a term coined by the Second Century Heretic Marcion, and his new “book” contained nothing except 10 of Paul’s letters and an abbreviated Gospel of Luke. Marcion established a rival network of “churches” which existed for a couple hundred years, until Constantine essentially syncretized everything to become the “Roman Catholic Church.”
So neither “New Testament” nor “Christian” appear in the 4 Gospels.
.3) As for “Christian orthodoxy”
The literally Orthodox view of the Scriptures (Eastern Orthodox) puts the 4 Gospels together in one book, apart and above all other writings in our current “New Testament.” This Book of the 4 Gospels, for almost 2000 years and even today, is the ONLY book placed on the altar in these Orthodox Churches – not “The Bible.”
I’m presenting you here with facts, which you can check for yourself, not my opinions.
“Orthodoxy” is that which is defined in the general sense as normal for a given thing. I am not referring to the “Orthodox Church”, Russian, Greek or otherwise. New testament and Christian do not appear in the 4 gospels, but do appear in the NT. Paul is as much a part of your religion as Jesus is, since he is the primary author of your holy book. You are , as others do here, denying Christianity and putting a cultic non-Christian argument to defend a cultic non-mainstream Christianity
Fred,
You are not denying the facts I’ve presented in the text.
What is regarded as the most “holy book” of the literally “Orthodox Church” contains nothing but the 4 Gospels. Nothing about “New Testament” “Christian” or “Paul.”
The idea of one special new “holy book” with the writings of one special “holy man” is a cultic idea, and there are many who have taken that path.
Marcion, with his “New Testament” centered on Paul the Pharisee
John Chrysostom, who around the 4th century wrote the liturgy for the Orthodox Churches that is repeated most Sundays repetitiously, word for word
Muhammad, author of the Koran
Martin Luther, who along with other “Reformers” believed the Paul’s letter to the Romans was the “God-given key to understand all Scripture.”
Joseph Smith, author of the Book of Morman
The list goes on.
I follow Yeshua, Jesus the Jewish Messiah of the Gospels – in order of importance by His appointed Apostles Matthew and John, then Mark, and lastly Luke. I don’t follow Paul, and I don’t need Paul- the church was functioning fine in Acts 8 before Paul. Some things wrote were true, but he was wrong about a lot.
Hey, Matthew:
Insanely busy with holiday preparations, but just wanted to quickly point out one thing. You wrote that the idea of “one special ‘holy man’ is a cultic idea”–this applies equally to Jesus or whatever you wish to call him.
Dina- Yevareheha Adonai veyish mereha
You quoted a few words in the middle of one sentence out of context.
What I said was:
The idea of one special new “holy book” with the WRITINGS of one special “holy man” is a cultic idea, and there are many who have taken that path.
Jesus did not write any Scripture at all. Jesus left no writings. Jesus did not create a new “holy book.” As a Jew, He had two or more Jewish witnesses testify about Him.
Matthew,
So if someone comes along and makes preposterous claims and can find two Jews to support him, he’s to be believed as long as he doesn’t leave any writings. You know, I think Shabbetai Tzv fits the bill.
Also, the thing about two witnesses? It’s about ruling on a person’s guilt in a crime, not determining the authenticity of their prophet credentials. Who’s taking things out of context, now?
The Torah gives us criteria for judging the authenticity of a prophet, and Jesus fails on all counts. See Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and 18:22. Or is Deuteronomy part of Scripture that you conveniently claim not to be part of Scripture? Sorry, I can’t keep track of all the books you have decided are authentic and vice versa.
Dina
We all know here that the principle of establishing a matter by the testimony of two witnesses is woven throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, and Judaism in general… Let’s not be silly. And wouldn’t a false prophet be guilty of a terrible crime, according to the Law of Moses?
Also, I can’t remember – are you “Torah observant”, or “TaNaKh observant” ?
Dina, why only one verse in Deuteronomy 18? (verse 22)
Why not more, like the whole second half of the chapter – say Deuteronomy 18:14-22 about the prophet like Moses that you must listen to?
Perhaps you realize that Yeshua just might be that prophet, and you don’t want to listen to Him?
Matthew, you didn’t answer the challenge; you deflected it. Please answer the challenge. And realize that the rest of that verse you cited explains in what way the prophet will be like Moses: he will be an Israelite who will speak God’s words. That describes any true prophet and could just as well be talking about Joshua who followed Moses. In context, with Moses speaking to the people before his death, that makes the most sense.
Jesus was as unlike Moses as any human being could be, especially in his manner of speaking (directing people to himself and not quoting God but especially in failing to deliver the people of Israel from her enemies, if you want to use “like you” in its very literal sense). He also failed the prophet tests that I showed you. Can you explain that?
Sharbano-
The Law was broken- time after time- 2000 years of exile
When the third temple is built make sure you go up and offer sacrifices year after year.
God wants Mercy
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
7As at Adam, they have broken the covenant;
they were unfaithful to me there.
Grace is Given by Christ
Paul my apostle- Testified to us Gentiles about this Grace
What’s your point.
Mathew Perri-
If you were of Christ you would know the Paul only reiterated what Christ said-
I’d imagine you will give 2 percent of a 100 of what you think is wrong.
Yahusha is the Christ.
bible819
“Paul only reiterated what Christ said” ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Which “Christ” ? ? ?
Jesus was asked twice which Commandment is the greatest or most important one, (Matthew 22 and Mark 12)
Both times Jesus answered quoting the same two commandments, from the Law of Moses.
Jesus said that one of these two commandments is the first and greatest most important one. Which one is it? The one in Deuteronomy 6, or the one in Leviticus 19 ?
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “ is this: ‘Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ [Mark 12:29-30, Deuteronomy 6:4-5]
Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.” [Matthew 22:37-38, Deuteronomy 6:5]
Dear Fred, Robert2016, Sharbano, and Bible819,
After reading your comments, I want to borrow the words of the Prophet Jeremiah,
“‘The priests did not ask, ‘Where is the LORD (Yahweh)’? Those who deal with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by BAAL, following worthless idols.” [Jeremiah 2:8]
I heard about the plans to literally erect gates to the “Temple of Baal” in New York and London yesterday, with hundreds more gates to come later this year. (I’m not sure if this was carried out yesterday or not.)
Underlying your comments, you are mostly arguing about the false teaching of Paul the Pharisee, or PAAL you might call him, not Jesus….. Most followers of PAAL are blind to this, and so they push Paul’s false teaching as “Christianity”. They don’t know Yeshua, Jesus the Christ of the Gospels.
As I quoted elsewhere, “The disciples were first call Christians in Antioch” in Acts chapter 11.
Lets leave off discussing what it means to “be a Christian”, and stop listening to Paal as if everything Paal said is “the Word of God” and “The Way of Salvation.”
Many times Paal didn’t know what he was talking about.
Let’s start listening to Yeshua the Jewish Messiah, whose testimony and teaching is recorded by the Jewish Scribes Matthew and John in their Gospels.
Matthew Perri:
Paul says:
If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4he is conceited and understands nothing.
and again
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousnes.
Peter testifies against you
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(Just as also our beloved brother PAUL, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,( in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.)
Matthew Perri:
( in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.)
You are denying God
bible819
You are quoting Paul in his second letter to Timothy 3:16 as if his words are “the Word of God.” So if anyone disagrees with Paul on any point of doctrine, he’s a heretic – because Paul said so – …… this is the formula used by Muhammad too.
But you missed the previous verse that Paul wrote to Timothy in
2 Timothy 3:15 about “how from infancy you have know the Holy Scriptures….”
Is it possible that Timothy was in a time warp, and had been reading Paul’s “second letter” to him, or any of Paul’s letters, in his “infancy” decades before they were written? Or is Paul referring to something else besides his own letters (or “The Bible”)…..
The Apostle Peter wrote of PROPHECY of Scripture, not ALL Scripture. It’s not the same thing.
You are following Paal, not the Jesus of the Gospels. I know, you were trained that way by the current church system – so was I.
“Come out of her, my people”!
Mathew Perri,
Peter said,
(Just as also our beloved brother PAUL, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,( in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.)
You distort them.
You Deny Peter, You Deny Christ-
If peter said, Paul’s teaching were legit. Why would I believe anything you say.
You are badly Mistaken.
I’ll trust Peter.
Christ Built his church on this ROCK.
Mathew Perri, the only reason we know anything about the Jewish Jesus is because of Paul. Paul’s epistles are the earliest sources we posses. His letters were written from the 40s-50s CE. Mark was written later, followed by Mathew, and then Luke-Acts. Also, lets not forget that we don’t have the autographs of any of these documents, but that they were all documents preserved by later gentile Christians with a Pauline bent to their theology. The fact that any remnants of Jesus’ Judaism remain, (and they do) is because of Pauline Christians who preserved the tradition. The first compilation of the documents called the New Testament come down to us from Marcion of Sinope (a gnostic from the 2nd century.) Before that, traditions were preserved by individual churches. If you throw away Paul, there is no way to rely on Christian text.
Dear Concerned Reader
It seems we agree on some historical facts, but we disagree on how to interpret them.
You wrote, QUOTE’
“The first compilation of the documents called the New Testament come down to us from Marcion of Sinope (a gnostic from the 2nd century.)”
Right – as I wrote here before, Marcion was a Second Century heretic who coined the term “New Testament”. His “new book” contained nothing but 10 of Paul’s letters plus Gospel of Luke, with the first 3 chapters missing, and maybe some other revisions.
I asked a simple question here – can you give a straight answer, like Jesus did?
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/#comment-27076
Peter said,
(Just as also our beloved brother PAUL, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,( in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.)
PETER SAID YOU ARE WRONG
the problem is we don’t know if speeches go back to peter or paul. we don’t know if they go to them or were invented by christians.
quote:
“[W]hat is striking is that if you didn’t know who was giving the speech, you’d have almost no way to tell from what is said. That is to say, the lower class uneducated peasant fisherman Aramaic-speaking Peter, in his speech in ch. 2, sounds almost exactly like the highly educated rhetorically effective intellectual Greek-speaking Paul in his speech in ch. 13. Why does Peter’s speech sound like Paul’s speech? Because neither Peter nor Paul wrote their speeches. Luke wrote them both.”
Robert2016
You are certainly correct to observe “Luke wrote them both.”
Luke wrote the entire Book of Acts, and neither Luke nor Peter, nor any other New Testament author except maybe Paul, ever said or wrote or implied that his own words were “the Word or God, equal to the words of Jesus.” And Paul was alone in his assessment of his own words and their authority.
For years when I’ve had interactions with “Bible-believing Christian” who have hammered me with “Paul wrote Scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit”, I found a way to quickly end the conversation. Just say, “Luke wrote Acts, so are you saying that everything Paul SAID (and did) in Acts recorded by Luke was also inerrant and can’t be questioned?” They will never give a straight answer to that…… because, practically speaking, they worship Paul, and think it’s heresy to ever say “Paul was wrong.” (Even in Acts, which Paul didn’t write.)
I do believe that as an investigative reporter, Luke accurately recorded many facts. Yet, he also made editorial comments, sometimes “covering for Paul,” sometimes exposing Paul’s sins.
It’s all well and good to claim that Paul’s writings are invalid, or this part isn’t worthy but, by the same token, what makes the one’s you rely on any more reliable. They are just as flawed in misquoting Tanach, among other things.
A person really should consider What they are believing in and how does it measure up. Surely Xtians believe their religion is ordained by G-d. Surely they would agree that G-d would know future events and act accordingly. Given all this, it should be the case, as it was from the time of Moshe, that Jews wrote down the things that G-d wanted the people to know, and therefore we should have had a record by this man himself. It should be a concern that he failed to write a single word down. Instead, the first writing did Not occur Until decades After his death. This is Untypical, especially in a Jewish community. In fact, this man didn’t even tell anyone of his followers to “write these things down”. This is significant. Ever since the time of Moshe G-d has been consistent in telling a person, write these things down, and invariably G-d put His Name in the mix. We have many examples of this. YET, in no instance is the name of G-d used to convey His supposed wishes. Not once does the Xtian text say, “…and G-d said”, in any manner whatsoever. This makes the entire Xtian narrative suspect to those who want to discern truth.
robert2016:
I consider them without a doubt God Breathed.
Regardless of who wrote them in the Flesh-
God gave them the words.
God is greater than human beings-
I will not discredit The Word with conspiracy and possibilities.
My point-
If Peter though Paul had wisdom and was of God.
Why would I trust an person who hasn’t died for the word
But many have died to protect this Bible-
Lastly Paul was spirit filled-
I have studied Paul’s message-
I find absolutely nothing in error-
When does G-d EVER put his name to those “breathed” words. Without invoking the Name of G-d there is only self-aggrandizement. Throughout Tanach G-d shows up in the words. This is totally lacking in the Xtian text.
Robert2016,
Our friend keeps talking about Paal, singing the Rapture of Boss Paul the Pharisee and doing the Evangelical Mexican Hat Dance around Paul’s sins.
And he still never answered the question,
Which commandment is most important one- The one in Deuteronomy 6, or the one in Leviticus 19 ?
Yahweh The LORD said,
‘It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law. Instead they have followed the stubbornness of theirs hearts; they have followed the PAALS, as their fathers taught them.’
Jeremiah chapter 9
Sharbano-
You don’t believe in my Christ
so anything regarding Paul or Peter would only be to those who believe in Christ.
As far saying God said this-
We believe that Christ is our down payment for the Spirit- God is spirit
With that, the apostles spoke by way of the spirit and not on their own account-
As Paul said,
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.
But also says
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Only by the spirit-
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
As Ezekiel said,
He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me.
Jeremiah described it like this:
I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.
Lastly,
Add some scripture instead a bunch of opinions-
Its like me saying-
Sharbano
you have no substance. you have no idea what you are talking about…
You’ve only Enhanced what I already said. And where do you get the notion that G-d is a “spirit”.
That makes absolutely No sense.
Do you really NEED the Thousands of verses where G-d speaks Directly in Tanach. The quotes You use are a futile attempt of distraction. If you’ve read Any of the Bible you should know, without any doubt, that G-d speaks in the first person, To the prophets, and to tell the people of His pronouncements.
THIS, on the other hand, you will NOT find in your Xtian text. It Cannot be found.
Sharbano
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
God is Spirit
The “Spirit of G-d” doesn’t equal “G-d is Spirit”
What is the Hebrew word used there and what does it mean.
Sharbano wrote- “In fact, this man didn’t even tell anyone of his followers to “write these things down”.”
There is a reason for that, and a reason why NOTHING was written for decades after the crucifixion. The reason is that in the NT, Jesus prophesied that his second-coming and messianic kingdom would occur BEFORE THEY DIED!
Fred:
Where are finding this second coming Mentioned?
I know my messiah speaks of a specific event before the 2nd coming
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel-
The Messiah did enter into his kingdom
hence his body is nowhere to be found-
As the Messiah said,
“I am with you for only a short time, and then I am going to the one who sent me. YOU will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.”
why NOTHING was written?
OH how my Faith has endured-
And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my CHURCH, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.
A.D. 33- 2016
Bible is the best-selling book of all time with over 5 billion copies sold and distributed
The abomination of desolation already occurred. That is speaking of a time when the Temple is standing, and in case you didn’t know we have no Temple at this time.
Therefore your messiah has led you astray. Realize that when he was telling this the Temple still stood, for a short while anyway. Furthermore he Did tell them they would still be alive when his kingdom would come.
>>>>>Furthermore he Did tell them they would still be alive when his kingdom would come.<<<<
Yes, he most certainly did. Strange that a Christian apologist and Bible expert is not aware of that text.
Sharbano-
Evidence-
What are you referring to?
Daniel 9-24
Show in the scripture.
I can. Can you?
Daniel speaks of 70 weeks which are 490 years from the time of the word of Jeremiah. Therefore it already has occurred.
Fred,
You have brought up a complicated issue which merits some serious attention, regarding what is “The Kingdom of God”, etc. I don’t have time to address it adequately right now.
But I feel I should challenge a broad sweeping claim you made, saying,
QUOTE:
“NOTHING was written for decades after the crucifixion.”
How in the world do you “know” that? I don’t think anyone today can truly make such a sweeping claim about such major events that happened 2000 years ago and affected thousands of people over a period of over 3 years.
It would be like saying that NOTHING in Genesis was written until Moses came along- but that’s a different topic.
>>>>Bible is the best-selling book of all time with over 5 billion copies sold and distributed<<<<
Now there is the test of truth, by how many copies are sold. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, are we?
Surely, you should know your own NT well enough to know that Jesus said some of the disciples would be alive when he returned in his kingdom. "John" even wrote "By this we know this is the very last hour".
But really, none of this matters. What matters is that Christianity is a scam and a con that makes promises it does not deliver on. That is all anyone really needs to know about it.
Fred:
Lets get back to scripture- You are in error-
“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this (realm.”)
Did his disciples see the REALM- Do you believe in the spiritual Realm- God is spirit!
Stephen did-
As far as the last hour-
do you not know – A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
Lastly, your last paragraph is once again is an opinion in which you consistently misquote in which you call the NT-
If you can list off promises with the scripture that weren’t fulfilled-
Please provide them-
Fred- Can you break Daniel’s vision-
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing
So it’s your contention that there will be no earthly reign.
Are you bringing up Stephen with his Holy Spirit guidance. That spirit was obviously ignorant of Torah since Stephen’s speech had so many mistakes in it.
Daniel says the anointed one will be cut and will exist no more.
“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this (realm.”)
you aren’t going to get “my kingdom is not of this world” in the gospel of mark.
quote :
Mark is the most apocalyptic Gospel and John is the least. As Prof. Ehrman has been writing on his blog lately “the Son of Man” is an apocalyptic figure. Mark’s Gospel speaks of eternal life that will occur in the future when the Son of Man arrives. For John eternal life is in the here and now. This is why John has no use for a Son of Man figure. John is not a rebuttal of Mark. Many scholars think John didn’t even know of Mark’s Gospel. Note how John speaks in the present tense (“My kingdom is not of this world….But now my kingdom…”) and Mark uses the future tense (“…you will see…”). Mark and John simply had very different, I would say almost diametrically opposed, views of who and what Jesus was. We see this growth as the Gospels progress from views of Jesus given in Mark and then in Matthew and Luke and finally in John. The view of Jesus matures as the early Christians have more time to think about and re-interpret the stories they have about him.
why did marks jesus tell that rich man to give up his riches and join him? why didn’t he tell him to keep his riches but give give to the poor ? why did he tell his disiples “endure to the end” (mark 13:9-13)? none of this make any sense if jesus did not think that judgement would be coming soon and earthly reward where he predicted that his disciples would be enthroned .
what does it mean “thy kingdom come” ?
“jesus does not coin the expression kingdom of god, it was already in circulation during his time”
1 chron 28:5
exodus 15:18 19:6
jesus told his disiples to say “thy kingdom come, thy will be done…”
absolutely no way he has johns
view in mind
“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this (realm.”)
the kingdom was of this world and jesus thought it was going to come in the high priests life time.
why should anyone interpret matthews kingdom of god in light of john when matthew had before him
dan 7:27
isa 9:7
isa 14:1-2
?
Sharbano,
You wrote above (amid much clutter…).
QUOTE: “It should be a concern that he (Yeshua) failed to write a single word down.”
Other than the original copy of the Ten Commandments, (which Moses broke and then had to rewrite himself), isn’t it true that God “failed to write a single word down” ?
in the Book of Revelation, through the Apostle John, Yeshua said:
“Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later.” 1:19
“To the church in Ephesus, write:…..” 2:1
“Behold I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.” 22:7
(“this book” is the Book of Revelation. It is not “The Bible,” which was not given to us as one book, and anyway was not compiled until hundreds of years later.)
To His 11 appointed Apostles, (all Jews) Yeshua the Jewish Messiah commanded them to make disciples of all nations, “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” [Matthew 28:16-20] That means everything Yeshua commanded His 11 Apostles, and only 3 of them wrote Scripture – Matthew, John, and Peter. (It doesn’t mean everything Paul claimed about himself, or everything Paul said, or wrote, or did or commanded. It doesn’t mean “Teach them the New Testament, or The Bible.” )
Jesus often taught from the Law of Moses and the Prophets, and Jesus said He came to fulfill them NOT abolish them. Paal was wrong about that.
Everything that Moshe wrote was what G-d wanted to be written down. Who would even suggest G-d would be the one who personally writes the matter down. He made His words known, which the Xtian text simply does not do.
The Xtian text was Not contemporary but a generation and more later.
Sharbano
So it seems we agree in principle on this one point at least theoretically and theologically.
Yeshua failed to write a single word down, rather He made His words know, which is consistent with God’s character.
As you said,
“Who would even suggest G-d would be the one who personally writes the matter down. He made His words known….”
You make an inadequate comparison. G-d “instructed” Moshe what to write. Your man spoke for himself. In no place does he use any reference that G-d told him saying…
As you said, “He made His words know..” Not G-d’s word but His.
“Jesus answered, ‘My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own…..” [Gospel of John 7:16-19]
That’s not pertinent to the point. That verse it simple obfuscation. Many “claim” to speak in G-d’s name and, here also, it’s a claim. You’ve tried to ‘create’ a rationale but the fact is the words are Not recorded, as they are in Tanach.
Sharbano,
I don’t quite get your point here. I believe we agree that Yeshua did not write any Scripture, but rather His words were recorded by Jewish eyewitnesses, His Scribes Matthew and John, similar to how words are recorded in Tanach.
Yeshua said:
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” [Matthew 11:27]
What is left out in Xtian polemics is the truth that Torah is a “blueprint”. This blueprint encompasses many things. It lays down what is and what isn’t the measure of a true prophet. Whoever may come must meet the requirements of Torah. Your man attempts to convince the people of his standing and in so doing claims to speak FOR G-d. We have examples of HOW G-d communicates His message to the masses. The messengers invariably say, “…and G-d said”, or some derivative of the same. Moshe was an exception because G-d spoke to him in words, without dream or vision. As G-d said to Moshe, there will never be another whom G-d will speak in this manner. Your Jsus makes the claim that he is superior than every other person, including Moshe. He compounds the problem by the verse you state; that is; “No one knows the Father EXCEPT the Son.” The style of the entire Tanach shows just HOW G-d speaks to the nation. It is explicit in that the words are the words G-d says. None of these men spoke FOR G-d. They spoke according TO G-d with HIS words.
It has become more clear how the people would suspect that this man is making himself Equal WITH G-d, by your own quotation. It has been said that he spoke volumes but we have very very little of his actual words. It would be interesting to know how much more inflammatory he words Might have been. When a man, any man, sets himself up on such a high pedestal then what type of person are we dealing with. In modern parlance we call this, delusions of grandeur.
Sharbano,
You wrote, QUOTE:
“What is left out in Xtian polemics is the truth that Torah is a “blueprint”. This blueprint encompasses many things. It lays down what is and what isn’t the measure of a true prophet. Whoever may come must meet the requirements of Torah.”
RIGHT. Yes. Amen.
And Moses recorded in the Torah,
“The LORD [Yahweh] said to me: ‘What you say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” [Deuteronomy 18:17-19]
Yeshua said:
“I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.” [John 5:43]
You should really look at the Gospel of John chapter 5 verses 16-47 to really hear well…
Matthew, you haven’t yet responded to my challenge about the true prophet test.
In this comment, you are saying that you believe in Jesus because he said so. Seriously!
Dina-
The Torah gives us criteria for judging the authenticity of a prophet, and Jesus fails on all counts. See Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and 18:22. Or is Deuteronomy part of Scripture that you conveniently claim not to be part of Scripture? Sorry, I can’t keep track of all the books you have decided are authentic and vice versa.
1st Paragraph-
My messiah, spoke of the same Father Moses worshiped- He also is the servant who bore sins- Israel didn’t bear anyone sins but their own-
Other gods- No Yahusha only spoke about the Father-
What other gods did he speak of Dina?
18:22
What didn’t come True?
What do think of Daniel Vision? Who is he referring to?
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
Let us make man in our Image
What is Image is that Dina?
Dina-
We believe in Christ because he is the true representation of God’s mercy-
In addition, God can be one with a person who is his messiah. After all there is no salvation outside of God.
Lastly, Abraham was given circumcision because of his faith, Moses the Law which made us know what is sinful and sacrifices to atone for them-
Then his King who came in the form of a servant, who saved the world from making anymore sacrifice as he was the final sacrifice-
He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him.
Now we live in his present with-out a priest to offer animals blood life for our sins.
Yes, we do listen because he said so.
As it written,
I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Hoses :Ch. 6. The 2 days refer to the 2,000
Years and the third day as the thousand year reign of Messiah on earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lord’s. Christ the Lamb
Our Passover and the Lion of the tribe of Judah….as Melchisadek. Yesuah
Show me from Tanakh where it says the Passover, or any other sacrificial rite, was meant to foreshadow a dying messiah. I will wait.
To Dina,
Criteria for a true prophet,everthing Jesus
Said came true and still other propecies still to come…not one stone of original Temple
Only retaining wall…70AD Israel scattered.
He that scattered Israel will also gather.
Math.24 two part Yeshua. Daniel Ch.9
Anti messiah will stand in the Holy place,future….New Temple will be built
Next to Mosk yes besides Christians know that. Papacy is illitgitamit office and false prophet pope….do not confuse with Christian doctrine many idols we know.
“Said came true and still other propecies still to come…not one stone of original Temple”
the main cause of the temples destruction was fire, jesus didn’t know that.
the stones still remain.
original temple still has stones remaining.
saying that the temple would be destroyed would not be prophecy because everyone in that time was saying it . telling people that it would be destroyed by fire now that is prophecy.
That face is that he predicted it-
Jesus said he would come back in his kingdom during the lifetime of his disciples. False prophecy. John said that “this is the very last hour”. False prophecy. The Kotel is not a “retaining wall”, it is the outer wall of the original temple, just as the outer wall is considered part of the “New Jerusalem” temple in Revelation. Many stones still standing. Jesus said that if they destroyed the temple, he would raise it back up in three days. The part about “he meant the temple of his body” was added as a marginal side-bar decades later by someone who was not Jesus.
Fred-
You refer to the kingdom as if it were supposed to be on earth???
Lets go through scripture-
“Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
How many stones where there?
5 or 6 and a couple pebbles left on the side-
“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
2000 years of desolation and no temple!!!!
Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Stephen said:
being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
If Stephen Saw his Kingdom then his apostles did also-
Yes Fred the temple is his body.
This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.…
Last hour- Do you believe that a day is like a thousand years to God?
Or do you try to disprove the Father as well—-
Do you believe Daniel Fred?
And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14″And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed-
Isaiah was right about you-
“Please read this,” he will say, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 12 Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, “Please read this.” And he will say, “I cannot read.”
Is this the SAME Stephen who couldn’t even quote Torah correctly and instead made numerous mistakes.
Can you list some? We go through the scripture once you have.
This has been covered ad nauseam. Are you wanting to actually learn or just wanting a disputation. I suggest you check a study bible and look at each thing Stephen says and check it with Torah. Then, come back and tell us what you have found. Torah is not in heaven that it cannot be reached, and learned from.
Shalom ,
Let me ask you one question which deals with the Suffering Servant in IsaYah 53.
The prophet speaking is IsaYah himself, who says that the sufferer was punished for “the transgression of my people,” according to verse 8. Who are the people of IsaYah ?
Israel. So the sufferer of IsaYah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?
Sara The words “my people” are the words of the kings of the nations of 52:15 – each king is speaking about his respective nation. Alternately this could be speaking of Israel but the servant is the righteous of Israel – see my article “Armor Bearers” 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
I can see a problem here . You teach that the servant is the righteous of Israel. If it is true it must mean that Israel is also the holy arm of the Most High? Do you accept it? Please answer it. Is Israel the holy arm of Elohim ? I insist on your answer. You also write that ” my people” refer to the kings of the nations and each king is speaking about his respective nation. How can you prove it? Please give some precise verses to justify your point of view. In 52:15 I can see the following verse:” the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider”. This verse reveals that the kings is not ” the people of IsaYah 53 ” especially when you look at the previous verse which sounds :13)” Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high”. (14) As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men”. The next sentence proves that you are wrong because:15)” So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider” There is a clear distinction between the kings and the servant here. My second question sounds. Why will the kings shut up their mouths? Please answer this question. Will they shut up their mouths because of him, won’t they?
Sara
Shalom
Sara
The number 1 excuse that will be given is that the Hebrew language can not be translated in any of English versions- Then you will be provided a version that is acceptable.
You might ask how Israel is righteous? But that would be very hard to explain-
Isaiah 4:2
In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.
Isaiah 11:1 says that
Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. 2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
Isaiah 53:2 This Branch
He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
In fact the Branch is the Messiah and he came as a servant-
Daniel 7:13 Explains his Glory
And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
Zechariah 7:13 Confirms his name
Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne.
Isaiah 59:16- That he himself and only himself will accomplish this-
He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.
As Yahsha Testified this truth:
“Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
and again
The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
There is no doubt that The Father has always used flesh to convey his word-
The messiah was crucified for Speaking his word
bible 819 How do you explain Psalm 44:18,19 and Isaiah 26:2,13? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Psalm 44:18,19
Israel was sinful and was scattered- (same narrative)
You gave us up to be devoured like sheep
and have scattered us among the nations.-
Isaiah 26: 2,13 ( That day has not come)- War is still happening
In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:
Bible 819 so who has not violated the covenant?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
I suggest you read ALL, that means every verse, in Chapters 52,53,54. There is a narrative going on here. The beginning starts with the nation of Israel and its final redemption. It lays the groundwork by speaking about Egypt and Israel sojourning there But Assyria oppressed them without cause. THIS is the context for chapter 53. Read and learn.
You didn’t refute anything-
Its more than a story line-
Sara The arm of the Lord is not the servant it is revealed on behalf of the servant – see Isaiah 52:10 and Psalm 98:3 To understand why the kings shut their mouths see Micah 7:8-16
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Myphariseefriend: If they were separated and needed to saved by his ARM how can Israel be his arm?
Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
If Israel is being redeemed how can they be his righteousness
Isaiah 52:3
For this is what the LORD says: “You were sold for nothing, and without money you will be redeemed.
Micah 7:8-16
(God once again will show his wonders)
“As in the days when you came out of Egypt,
I will show them my wonders.”
16 Nations will see and be ashamed,
deprived of all their power.
They will put their hands over their mouths
and their ears will become deaf.
Bible 819 Israel is NOT His arm – His arm is His work that will be revealed on behalf of Israel 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Yes, I know who the Suffering Servant is. I know who became the salavtion of Elohim according to the words of Elohim himself. In fact the whole Israel will be saved!!!
I must add that the messiah will build a temple and he will become a king forever. The messiah is the branch, the Suffering Servant, the One who will restore the Law, the king of Sion. He is our Saviour. He is the salvation of Elohim. Does anybody know what the salvation of Elohim means in detail???
Besides, I have got a question for some of you. Could the Almighty Elohim create such a stone which he would not be able to pick up?
“Besides, I have got a question for some of you. Could the Almighty Elohim create such a stone which he would not be able to pick up?”
your question is like
could god become blind even though he is all seeing?
does such a question make sense?
Robert2016:
(Nor did it (ever) enter his mind) All seeing!!!
God is holy so yes he does have limitations on sin
Built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
Sara As for your question about the stone – no God cannot do that just like He cannot make Himself not-God or insane or commit suicide 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Where does it call Mashiach a “suffering servant” or “savior”.
In answer to your last question, I would pose a like question. “What color is the number 5”.
Sharbano:
# 5 is all red
Isaiah 53:5
He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
I already gave you the Correct translation. You are manipulating the words in order for it to sound christological. What Hebrew word there says pierced.
You have given me some verses which come from IsaYah 52:1
“The Most High hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our Elohim” and the verse from the psalm which is”He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our Elohim”.
What does the salvation of Elohim mean? You did not answer me if Israel is the holy arm of Elohim? Do you know the answer?
I am aware that Elohim will reveal his arm in the eyes of all the nations . Do you know that the Most High will also reveal his arm to Israel too??? Is it true or not?
Sara God’s arm is NOT Israel – God’s arm is His work on behalf of Israel and the nations – it is not a pers
What the Heck is IsaYah.
The same as YeshaYah
(God is salvation)
This is the Hebrew for Isaiah (ישעיהו) not as you or Sara noted.
By the way Sharbano, who will save you: Israel or the holy arm of Elohim? Do you understand the word -salvation?. Who is your Saviour?
You’ve convinced Me that you are just trolling here with no purpose.
Or it the face you can’t ever answer anyones question
Check what the word trolling is and see if it isn’t so.
I have another question for the those that are able to defend Elohim’s word!!!! Who will appear with his saints on the Mount Sion ? Please name him . Has anybody got enough courage to do it?? What is the name of this secret figure???
Sara It is the Mount of Olives and it is God Himself 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
If the arm of Elohim is only his work how will this arm be ale to judge? That is a good question.;))))
Sara Which verse are you referring to when you say that the arm of the Lord judges? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Sharbano you are very impolite. I asked you a very easy question. Some are able to see my purpose easily but others not. Do you know why?
I must answer my own question. Elohim created such the stone which He was not able to lift but finally He picked it up. Do you know what the stone really is???
I asked you the question on purpose. This question is only for those who want to undermine Elohim’s power and say that his omnipotence is restricted. Elohim is able to do everything He wishes.
u undermine his power. you say people overpowered your elohim and took his life. you are the one who is undermining your gods power.
More like the same hospitality that was given to his prophets were given to God-
Bible 819 If the Jews would not have accepted the prophets – you would never hear about them
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Elijah doesn’t agree
bible 819 so is Isaiah and the Psalmists lying?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Elijah- “I alone am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal’s prophets are 450 men
The Psalmist- The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone. 23 (This is the LORD’S doing); It is marvelous in our eyes.…
Isaiah – But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
Daniel 9:11
All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you. “Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you.
The Servant is the Savior of the World- The King is innocent.
bible 819 You still didn’t explain Psalm 44 and Isaiah 26
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
You did not understand my message . Sharbano , the messiah is called the Branch and the Branch is the messiah. Am I right?
Robert I think that Elohim would have a good answer for you.
You wrote:
“.your question is like
could god become blind even though he is all seeing?
does such a question make sense?
Reply ”
It depends on what you understand by becoming blind. If you treat it as a metaphor, yes He could certainly become blind. It would mean that He would become blind after he had seen so many sins of Israel. In other words, he would not like to keep on watching what and how Israel is breaking his law . Do you catch it? My question was metaphorical too.
I hope that at the moment everyone understands me.
“It depends on what you understand by becoming blind”
losing his sight
Was God blind? Nor did it enter his mind!
They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Hey pharaseefriend. Could Elohim come in flesh if He wished ? Is it possible?
your question is like. can the flesh hold almighty god? if it can then can we worship the flesh?
Sara This question shows that you don’t understand the relationship that Israel has with God. Its like a marriage – if your husband would become a girl would you have the same relationship with him that you have now?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
I must repeat that my question was metaphorical.
Ok, Is there anything that Elohim is not able to defeat? I am really serious!
if god gives life and death then it is impossible for him to be overtaken by death. god does not defeat what is already under his control. “defeat” makes no sense here.
Sara God could defeat anything because all are His creations. 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
No Robert, you do not understand one thing. You write:”u undermine his power. you say people overpowered your elohim and took his life. you are the one who is undermining your gods power”
They did not overpower him but He gave his life for Israel. He became our salvation. He says so in the prophets. If he did not do it, most of you would die in your sins. Yah became salavtion. Do you remember this verse ?
did your god lose his life? if he lost his life then he wasn’t in control of it. someone else took it from him. who was powerful enough to receive your gods life?
“If he did not do it, most of you would die in your sins.”
christians still sin. the blood of jesus has increased them in sin. amen.
Yahshua means that Yah saves! Yah became our salvation! He will appear on mount Sion with his saints.
How can death be overcome? You must die and wake up on your ownYou must come back to life!!!
death defeated your god? elijah didn’t die. elijah wasn’t defeated by death.
By the way, read Ezechiel, all Israel will be resurrected and saved!!!
Robert when Elohim came to Abraham as angels, did Abraham worship Elohim or angels? It functions in the same way.
anything is worshipable once you have a god held by creation.
Sara Abraham worshiped God alone – he bowed down to angels just as he bowed to the children of Heth 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Do not you know that we are forbidden to bow down before angels. If an angel came to me I would never bow down before him but if I knew that Yah came as an angel I would surely bow down before him. Can you see a difference between kneeling before one angel and the One who comes as the angel? Is my reasoning ok?
Sara it depends – what is pulling your heart? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
You wrote:” death defeated your god? elijah didn’t die. elijah wasn’t defeated by death”.
Please do not profane the name of Elohim in the name of the prophet. It is EliYah not j!!!
The prophet did not die because He was taken alive to heaven He did not deserve death. . Why didn’t he die? Because Elohim took him to heaven as the chosen one. But remember that other prophets died . Yes or no? No, Yah defeated death by resurrection. Death did not defeat him, but He defeated death showing that death had no power over him.
so you agree elijah did not die in his sins. yah defeated death by resurrection yet created person like elijah wasn’t overcome by death? lol
death had no power yet it took control of his life for 3 days?
What does it mean to be defeated by death? To die forever, to stay in sheol forever!!!! Resurrection shows that even the worst enemy of every human being ccould be overcome by Yah. Why did Yah have to become a human being to save us? Elohim is the Spirit who is immortal and it means that Elohim can not die. Only as a human being he could die for sins of Israel. if he did not do it most of Jews would die in their sins because they break his Law. The Suffering Servant is Elohim. Do you want a proof?
“What does it mean to be defeated by death? To die forever, to stay in sheol forever!!!! ”
when satan took jesus’ life did round 1 go to satan? yes or no?
if yes, then satan defeated your god.
“Why did Yah have to become a human being to save us?”
animal blood atones for sins. there was no need to become man.
“Elohim is the Spirit who is immortal and it means that Elohim can not die. ”
so you are still in your sin because the spirit part did not die
New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
since the soul wasn’t destroyed and gods spirit cannot die, then you really have no atonement.
Sara So you limit God by claiming that He cannot forgive without a human body 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Robert, show me my mistakes and tell me who will appear on the Mount Sion with his saints! Please do not remember that Elohim is the Spirit who has his own Spirit. Elohim can not create another Elohim but can come in flesh . He is able to appear as angel , in the form of a man agree???
In fact Sarah-
He did appear as a Man-
Genesis 18
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the large trees of Mamre. Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent. It was the hottest time of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. So he quickly left the entrance to his tent to greet them. He bowed low to the ground.
“He did appear as a Man-”
wouldn’t you be a man worshipper if you were to approach a man and call him god?
It specifically and without doubt says three ANGELS.
Where Sharbano???? Please provide- no more opinions
Why did he take EliYah alive to heaven? Was it possible if almost all prophets died?
In fact Sarah-
He was the only prophet left-
1 Kings 19:10
“I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.”
You wrote: “if your god lose his life? if he lost his life then he wasn’t in control of it. someone else took it from him. who was powerful enough to receive your gods life?
Reply
robert2016 says:
April 25, 2016 at 8:15 pm
“If he did not do it, most of you would die in your sins.”
christians still sin. the blood of jesus has increased them in sin. amen.
Reply
What is the nature of Elohim? Elohim is the Spirit who has his own Spirit. On earth he was not Elohim because he came in flesh . If He was Elohim on the earth he could not die, right? It was the only way how he could defeat death.Why did Elohim create two persons on his own image? I do not suggest that He is two!!! Elohim is the spirit who has his oen Spirit.
I am not Christian. Please do not offend me. Christianity is Babylon the Great! The mystery of lawlessness and iniquity!!!! You are right that if Yah did not come in flesh I would die. The prophets teach that He did it fortunately!
Yes Christians sin because they are against the Torah! They call Elohim Jesus and Christ. Both names are pagan. They worship a false image of Elohim created by Rome! All who blaspheme and profane the name of Elohim will die.
Sara, I shall not speak to you metaphorically but plainly and literally. Your interpretations of Scripture where it appears that God manifested as a human or an angel are incorrect. However, I will not discuss that now. For argument’s sake, let us say that this is correct.
God taught us plainly, clearly, and non-metaphorically that we are not to associate him in our worship with any form whatsoever. Deuteronomy 4 gives one example among many of this clear teaching.
Therefore, even if God manifested a billion times as a man (God forbid!) we would still be prohibited from associating him with that manifestation.
Associating God with the man Jesus is expressly forbidden and constitutes the grave sin of idolatry.
You wrote:”when satan took jesus’ life did round 1 go to satan? yes or no?
if yes, then satan defeated your god.
“Why did Yah have to become a human being to save us?”
animal blood atones for sins. there was no need to become man.
“Elohim is the Spirit who is immortal and it means that Elohim can not die. ”
so you are still in your sin because the spirit part did not die
New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
since the soul wasn’t destroyed and gods spirit cannot die, then you really have no atonement.”
No you are wrong. Yahshua gave his life for free. Satan did not take his life.
Yes Elohim as the Spirit can not die. The Spirit of Elohim came in flesh. It is true that there were blood atones for sins but if you do not repetent can you be saved??? Answer!!!!! Now,there is no temple however.
Satan ‘s kingdom is on earth. Look around! Hell means sheol, grave. But Yahshua can destroy the soul. It depends how you understand the soul. Soul is not the spirit. Remember about it. Now , my turn. Let me ask you a few questions Ok?
“No you are wrong. Yahshua gave his life for free. Satan did not take his life.”
you say your god died, then who gave him death? who? he killed himself?
satan killed him? who?
“Yes Elohim as the Spirit can not die. The Spirit of Elohim came in flesh.”
elohim is in flesh. death overtook flesh. so death took control of elohims flesh body?
or did the spirit of your god allow death to take over his flesh? so it was simply a “pass the flesh to one another” game?
Who will come with his saints on Mount Sion?
And Henoch? If Yah appear to you in form of angel and you know that He is Elohim. Would you worship him or not?
no
When Yah came with his saints would you worship him??? Answer!
no. i don’t worship anything that can be seen.
2) Behold, Yah [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Yah [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation. (3) Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. (4) And in that day shall ye say, Praise Yah , call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. (5) Sing unto Yah ; for he hath done excellent things: this [is] known in all the earth. (6) Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great [is] the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.
Answer: who became salvation???? Is the same salvation who will be revealed in front of the eyes of the nations???? Who is in the midst of you? Is it the same figure from ZecharYah?
Answer
But when Yah talked in the fire, Moses bowed down before him. Did he worship fire or Elohim?
since your god was in the fire and held by the fire, why wasn’t the fire worthy of worship? think about it. the created HELD god. so it must be worshipable, right?
You are telling me that I will die in my sins. Everybody who knows the name of the Father will be saved! I pray to Yah, not Jesus. Can you see a difference? I know the name of the Father!!! Ask Christians whose god they worship. Jesus , they answer!
But Yah was seen when struggled with Jacob. Abraham also bowed down before him. The prophet ZecharYah says that Yah will come literally with his saints! Does he lie?
Your Elohim was in the fire too. Have you forgotten about it???? It does not mean that we must worship the fire .
your elohim was held by created fire. so the fire must be strong enough to hold him. so the fire should be worshipped because it must’ve mixed with gods spirit/essence
you said god can appear as a man
you should say that his invisible spirit can become visible and weak because he is all powerful.
yes , what you say means that we should worship the fire with our heart and soul and mind.
Why will David kingdom will be everlasting and never finishes? How is it possible?
“Yes Elohim as the Spirit can not die. The Spirit of Elohim came in flesh.”
if elohim can not die then what in the invisible spirit of elohim BECAME weak? if nothing, then elohim did not experience what it is to be weak and created. god has been creating flesh for millions of years ,what is special for him to create flesh, hide in it and then hand it over to death?
so you need to accept that god is physically becoming human and weak other wise you have committed a heresy called nestorianism.
you cannot say god became man and only the flesh part experienced . orthodox christianity says that the divine and flesh nature is interconnected.
so when jesus was hungry your elohim was hungry too
when jesus forgot, remembered and learned, elohim did the same too.
you cannot split the two natures, they are one.
You must agree with me. We both believe that only Elohim can be our Saviour, right? One thing is certain. If the Suffering Servant was a human being can not be our Saviour, right? Only as Elohim in flesh, he can save us. The question remains: did he come in flesh? Will he come with his saints as ZecherYah says!
Answer please. I must finish. it is late.
Sara Why are there a plurality of savior in Obadiah 1:21?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
And the last thing! Why will be a great mounrning in Israel in last days? They will see whom they have pierced. Do you accept it?? The Word of Yah says so! Yes or no?
the last thing??? I seriously doubt it. You should take your trolling elsewhere.
Sara I explain all this under the category “Scripture” – the mourning will be for the ones that the nations pierced
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Are you there?
How can Yah come with his saints if he is invisible??????
sara How did He pass through the land of Egypt if He is invisible?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11″In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12″The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves;
You are welcome to comment it? Why will every family mourn separately ????? Did I lose my mind of you did not believe in the report of Yah’s arm??? What is the Spirit of grace? without the spirit of grace they would not know whom they have pierced.
Robert, are you running away?? Please answer my questions. I answered yours. I know that my answers did not satisfy you! But I answered you! Where are your replies??? Still waiting.
no , i wasn’t running away i went to sleep.
? Does it mean that you are ingnoring me?
Sara,
I am sure it is obvious to any who read what you have written here that you are passionate. And I am sure you wish to do what is correct and devote yourself to HaShem. If that is the case, please consider:
You write that HaShem is not limited, and yet you have limited him. HaShem does not need the blood of another to forgive your sins. Note that even the passage in Leviticus (17) does not say that God requires a sacrifices so that someone may be forgiven. His arm is in no way shortened; His power to forgive is not limited. No one has to die for your sins.
You can see this in Ezekiel very clearly. Please review chapters 18 and 33. There God clearly says that one must repent of his wrongdoing and make amends. If he does so, he will be counted as righteous. But there are those who do not think this is right. It does not seem to be enough. Surely something more must happen. “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just,’ when it is their own way that is not just. When the righteous turn from their righteousness, and commit iniquity, they shall die for it. And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, I will judge all of you according to your ways!” (Ez. 33:17-20).
The mistaken understanding you have of Isaiah 53 comes out of Christian doctrine, which you claim to abhor. They have badly misunderstood Isaiah 53 and badly misrepresented it to the rest of the world. If you read R’ Blumenthal’s writings on Isaiah 53, you will surely see that they have nothing to do with Jesus. If you study Isaiah 53 in light of Torah and the rest of the prophets, you will surely see that the idea that a man must die for the sins of others is anathema to Torah.
God is not too weak to forgive.
Jim
Is Yah able to ignore people? Only those who ignore others may find out. Shalom
But Israel was full of iniquity andJews did not want to not repent and change their lives. They would die for their sins of course. It is true. The Suffering Servant saved them by his blood. If you are right that the Suffering Servant is not Elohim, most of Israel would certainly die. Read and see and consider their numerous sins and crimes !!!! You must be perfect in the Torah to be saved. Are you??? I must finish now. Shalom
Sara If Israel is only sinful than who has not violated God’s covenant in Psalm 44:18,19? or who is the faithful nation of Isaiah 26:2? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Exactly, everybody has violated Gods initial covenant-
Israel fell short- Being Scattered has been the result-
The servant is innocent-
Is Israel innocent? if not- they are not the servant-
bible 819 And who told you that the servant is innocent?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Yeshayahu- Isaiah – Chapter 53
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
bible 819 What the verse is saying is that the servant died for no crime that he had done – teh Christians treated the Jews as if they were murderers and thieves when in fact they were not. The prophet is not speaking about sinlessness
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Shalom,
I did not write anywhere that only Israel is sinful. By the way, as bible 819 says Israel committed a lot of violence nad there was a lot of deceit in his mouth. I think that you know what exacty I mean. You can not die for my sins and I can not die for yours but the Suffering Servant died for sins of Israel. Can you see a contradiction here if the Suffering Servant is Israel ? You still believe that Israel is the Servant but some certain facts contradict sth you teach. By the way, I gave you many replies but you have not answered my questions yet . Are you hiding sth before me? I will ask you again. Is it true that Elohim will come with his saints? Yes or No!!!! This time I really insist on your answer! ANSWER IT!!!!!
Sara I explained to bible 819 that the verse is saying that the servant is being treated as if he was a murderer and a thief when he is innocent of those charges – just read Jewish history to understand and I answered your question many times already – first of all it is the Mount of Olives not Mount Zion (or sion) – and second He will come as He did in Egypt – without a form
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
You asked me the following question:” sara How did He pass through the land of Egypt if He is invisible? My answer sounds: it happend spiritually, through his Spirit . It was his holy arm wasn’t it? You believe that Elohim will appear with his saints literally or not? Please give me your reply
Sara It does not say “appear” – it says His feet will stand – God’s “feet” like His eyes, His arm, His hand His ears are metaphors for His actions
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Sara I have a question for you – who are His saints?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
The reedemed of course. I have started to have some doubts if all Israel is really saved or only those who believed in him . It says that he will become intercessor of many not all. I think that I was wrong! because:
“My Servant, will justify the many”,
As He will bear their iniquities”.
“He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors”.
Brothers, I was wrong!!!! Only who believed in the report were really saved, the rest of Israel will be judged according to their works.
If you are not a sinner,you do not have to worry. You must be like EliYah, so clean and upright . If you are such a man , you are lucky and you do need Yah’s salavation because your good deeds will lead you to salvation. What will happen if you die in sins?
Sara If you hope to God – you don’t need to worry about anything and you don’t need to hope to anyone or anything else 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
“My answer sounds: it happend spiritually, through his Spirit ”
i don’t understand you. if you believe spirit is passing through then you are not limiting it to a body. taking christian understanding , god was passing through many bodies.
why then do christians limit god to yeshua body when god passed through many?
why should you point to yeshua and say “this is my elohim”
but not to any other body?
why should you call out to yeshua in galilee while yeshua is delivering talk in the temple in jerusalem?
Let me explain. Every human being has Yah’s spirit, his breath. However, Yah is also a Spirit. When Yah’s spirit leaves a body, such a person dies. We are not immortal. Immortality was lost in the garden of Eden. When I speak about Yah as the Spirit I am aware that Yah is the Spirit and his own Spirit dwells in him. Yah’s spirit came in flesh it means that He came to the earth as a human being . When we say that sb is under the influence of the Holy Spirit it means that the Spirit of Yah works or speaks through this person . We can not mix two terms together although the same word spirit is used
I do not understand your question which sounds” why should you call out to yeshua in galilee while yeshua is delivering talk in the temple in jerusalem?
Please explain it to me .
“When I speak about Yah as the Spirit I am aware that Yah is the Spirit and his own Spirit dwells in him. Yah’s spirit came in flesh it means that He came to the earth as a human being . ”
so your “yah” is limited to flesh of one human being? or the spirit changed into flesh?
G-d is a “spirit” who HAS a “spirit” REALLY?? That is an oxymoron.
“G-d is a “spirit” who HAS a “spirit” REALLY?? ”
Now I understand why these mi$$ionary morons are always whining about,
“tAlKiNg iN tOnGuEs. . . ‘Derp.
LMFAO!
Hey mi$$ionaries, just click your heels together 3 times and say,
Jesus is NOT the messiah
Jesus is NOT the messiah
Jesus is NOT the messiah
You also replied in such a way:” the mourning will be for the ones that the nations pierced “. I am sorry to say but you have just twisted the Word of Yah using the word: the ones? Did Israel pierced the ones? Which ones? What are you talking about?
Sara If you knew Hebrew you would realize that it is you who is twisting His word – I wrote extensively on this please search my blog for Zechariah 12:10
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Please answer the above questions .
Sara For you to come here and demand answers to your questions is a bit arrogant – this blog has over 500 articles answering your questions – please search and read
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Am I arrogant because I believe that Elohim whose name is Yah saves and become salvation? In a moment I will answer your question but at first please tell me if his saints come literally or not? If not literally does it make sense to believe that they will appear with the Most High if the whole meaning is still metaphorical?
can you show me any place in the jewish bible where god does a sacrificial ritual for humans?
what i have read is that humans do the sacrifices TO HIM
can you show in the jewish bible that “yah saves” through the christian understanding which says that yah/god would ritually kill himself for sins of humans?
Sara
His saints will come physically He will come in the way He came through Egypt or to the tabernacle.
Please do not insist on getting answers immediately – the people commenting here have other things to do as well besides answer you
By the way ,if I write about his holy arm should I mean Elohim himslef? It really matters so please answer it. Example: “his holy arm wil judge” . Should I understand that Elohim himself will judge nations?
Sara
Which verse are you talking about?
5) My righteousness [is] near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arm shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust. (6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
9) Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Yah ; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. [Art] thou not it that hath cut Rahab, [and] wounded the dragon? (10) [Art] thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
Yah’s arm is Yah himself. Agree ?
sara God’s arm punishes people rendering His judgment – the arm is not a pers
You wrote: “Sara Why are there a plurality of savior in Obadiah 1:21? King James’ Version is not the best edition. In other editions it says: the redeemed , not the saviours. Beside Yah there is no Saviour. Is it correct? What do you know about the mountain of Esau ? Thank you for this verse.
Sara
The best version is the Hebrew – it says saviors
I am back for a short time. This version is wrong because Elohim says” there is no Saviour beside him”. Do you want to change his opinion? Do you know any other Saviours exept for Elohim himself? It is so sad because you believe that beside Yah are other Saviours :(((((((((((((((((((((((
Hebrew is Not a version, it is the original language of the text.
Sara How do you know which verse to “fix”? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Robert , you did not give me your answers yesterday. You just ignored me. Robert , you wrote:
Can “you show in the jewish bible that “yah saves” through the christian understanding which says that yah/god would ritually kill himself for sins of humans?
The Suffering Servant is the answer. It is not a Christian concept. If you answer me if the messiah is the Branch,you will understand it. Is the messiah the Branch? This is a special question for you! Only when you give me your reply, it will prove us who is really wrong! Will you risk your life for the truth?
“The Suffering Servant is the answer. It is not a Christian concept. If you answer me if the messiah is the Branch,you will understand it. Is the messiah the Branch? This is a special question for you! Only when you give me your reply, it will prove us who is really wrong! Will you risk your life for the truth?”
isaiah 53 says it please god to punish the servant. do you really think isaiah thought that “yah” was pleased in punishing himself? in what way do you see the punished object as ALMIGHTY GOD?
Everything depends on how you understand the punishment. Do you understand it in a positive or negative way? What is your reply? This punishment was positive or negative?
Sara Which punishment are you talking about? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Remember Robert that the truth is one.
By the way, Robert look at IsaYah 35:4 What can you see? Did it happen or it is a future prophecy which means that it will happen in the future PLEASE ANSWER IT!!!!!
“4Say to the hasty of heart, “Be strong, do not fear; behold our God, [with] vengeance He shall come, the recompense of God, that shall come and save you.”
“vengeance he shall come…”
what is your point?
You first. Are you asking me because you do not know or sth does not suit you in this verse??
Please let me continue! 4″) Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your Elohim will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompence; he will come and save you. ((5) Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. (6) Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.”
Was it the past or it will be the future?
Sara
Future
It was the past.
Friend you wrote: “So you limit God by claiming that He cannot forgive without a human body”
Can you see a difference between forgiving sins and saving from sins? Answer it because it matters
Sara
Your god can’t save without a human body?
god is spirit so how can he be visible body? please answer .
In the say way He came to Jacob whom he struggled with . Jacob saw his face so he thought that he would die. Why didn’t he die? Can anybody who saw Elohim remains alive? Possible or impossible. Chose a correct reply please!
So, you will Deny what the text Actually says, as it says, “angel”. The Temple cannot even house his feet so how does that compare to an angel of human size.
When you forget sins you do not remember sins . it means forgiveness of course. What does the phrase ” “to save from sins “mean? Does Elohim forget sins or save from sins? Salvation mainly means forgeting about the sins forever!!! I must finish now . I will come back soon! Shalom
Sara
God does both without the services of a human body
Here are the articles I mentioned
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/zechariah-1210/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/isaiah-53-a-verse-by-verse-exposition/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/armor-bearers-isaiah-5211-2/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/foundation-of-worship-iii/
Robert. He can forget your sins but your sins provoke him to anger. When you are saved your all sins are covered by his innocent blood. He can be in a visible body in the same way he appeared to Abraham.
so how does punishing himself make him forget ? aren’t they still in his memory?
You were quilty to die but his death cleaned your quilt forever. You must only believe in the report. Is it easy to believe in the report if the Suffering Servant is Israel.? NO!!!!If the Suffering Servant is Israel, and it is obvious and clear so why are we obliged to believe in the report?. Does it make any sense and it does not contradict itself.
I feel that Yah wants to ask you sth: Whom is this report directed to?
He wants you to open your eyes!
“You were quilty to die but his death cleaned your quilt forever. ”
i still feel guilty thats why i repent . is repentance more important than taking away sin through murder ritual?
if yes, then no need for your god to take away guilt.
guilt is good to help one in repentance. murder ritual doesn’t help anybody.
Do you think that your repentance is enough not to die forever? Your repentance is not enough if you do not change your life and stop sinning. Look at the example of some pedofile who rapes a child. Every time he sins he repents. His repentance is not enough. He must change his life and stop sinning if he wants to inherit Elohim’s kingdom,. If he dies in his sins he wil die forever .
Yah says that your repentance is accepted by him only when you stop sinning . If you still sin your repentance will not accepted by Him. Do you know why?
Repetance is only the sign that you are sorry about what you have done . If you keep on sinning your repetance means nothing to him and YOU ARE STILL guilty !.
You have called the act of salvation the murder ritual.
It depends on the fact if they murdered him or he came to die on purpose.
Sara So God was making a joke in Ezekiel 33? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
“Your repentance is not enough if you do not change your life and stop sinning. Look at the example of some pedofile who rapes a child. Every time he sins he repents. His repentance is not enough. He must change his life and stop sinning if he wants to inherit Elohim’s kingdom,. If he dies in his sins he wil die forever ”
it is your fellow christian who think that they are washed with the blood of your god and from mon-fri hide under jesus’ skirt awaiting eternal rewards.
if the whole world repented this world would be a better place.
“His repentance is not enough. He must change his life and stop sinning if he wants to inherit Elohim’s kingdom,. If he dies in his sins he wil die forever .”
trust me, if you trust that god hears and sees you don’t need jesus or his “sacrifice”
trust in yourself and learn to do right and jesus is reduced to a ritual murder.
you must trust in god rather than blood sacrifices.
“Do you think that your repentance is enough not to die forever? Your repentance is not enough if you do not change your life and stop sinning. Look at the example of some pedofile who rapes a child. Every time he sins he repents. His repentance is not enough. He must change his life and stop sinning if he wants to inherit Elohim’s kingdom,. If he dies in his sins he wil die forever .”
you talk about people who abuse children but you forget that jesus according to your religion had the past , present and future sins of child abuse poured on his body “punished on his body”
so if your god can save jesus from eternal damnation even though he became “curse” why couldn’t he be fair and save repentfull child abuser who stops doing his abuse?
why does god pour all filthy sins on himself and saves himself from eternal damnation ?
like i said, your god is not just or fair. a just punishment meant jesus christ should be eternally damned in the depths of hell.
Sara You Do not believe the report 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
I think it makes no sense arguing therefore I suggest concentrating on certain facts.
I have a general question for you both. Is the mesiah called David, the Servant or the Branch.
Please chose a correct reply! This question will reveal the whole objective truth , detail by detail. Waiting!!
Sara All of the above 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Sara, I’ve been catching up on comments just now, and I’m struck by your breathtaking rudeness in insisting on answers to your questions. Most of the commenters on this blog are American or British, for whom such behavior is considered bad manners. We ask questions, we present arguments, and then we politely wait for answers. I am explaining this to you because you are obviously not a native English speaker, and perhaps in your country or culture this is an acceptable mode of communication.
I am coming back soon.I hope your answers will be ready too ! Shalom HalleluYAH!!!
I am still waiting for your answer. Have you made a choice as far as the messiah is concerned? Which of the above names refer to him?
Robert!
Whom is the report directed to????????????????
I am still waiting. I know that only Elohim does not count time but he counts on a man that he will believe in him. How long is Elohim able to count on a man that he will believe him ? So long as it happens.
Didn’t you even bother to read Micah that the Rabbi directed you to. What’s the point if you are unwilling to read that which clarifies and instead wants to believe in vague generalities.
I started to read one article about the mourning from ZecherYah and I can not believe that the truth can be attacked in such a way! Moreover, there are so many questions and I am only a human being and I am not able to give all the responses at the same time.
You wrote:
t is your fellow christian who think that they are washed with the blood of your god and from mon-fri hide under jesus’ skirt awaiting eternal rewards.
if the whole world repented this world would be a better place.
I am aganist Christianity because it is a religion of lawlessness!Those who are against Yah’s Torah will not be saved!
Yah asks you : If you repent why do you keep on sinning?
Do you understand what He is just talking to you!
“Yah asks you : If you repent why do you keep on sinning?”
you still stin even though you are “washed with blood of lamb”
according to your religion god gave every human “born in sin” heart so everybody is stuck with sinning. one has no choice because god made him “born in sin”
I can see that you support the doctrine of the original sin taught by the Catholic church. Were all infants “born in sin”? Nonsence . Infants know no sin because they have no conscience and they are not aware what it is good and what is evil. We are given a choice whom we will follow and only when we grow up we are able to separate good from evil. The conscience of the sin appears when we start to know what the sin means . We have a free will. We can accept it or reject it.
Punishement for sin is death. If we were all “born in sin”, we would have to die according to your own doctrine because the sin would live in us from the beginning.
The worst thing to Elohim is when sb sins consciously, knowing that every sin leads to eternal sheol. Yah asks you: Are you strong enough to stop sinning?
G-d Himself says it can be done. He tells Kayin that sin lies at the door but it can be overcame. This destroys the Xtian argument.
Of course ,people are able to overcome their sins but only those who walk in the light and want to walk in the truth. They are strong because Elohim gave them such a power and therefore they are able to overcome their sins .It is his grace gievn to them to overcome the evil !!. However , Israel was not so strong to walk in the law. Do you know why? Because Israel stopped listenig to the voice of Yah and his prophets.
So, you are saying that G-d “chooses” who will or will not sin. That is saying that man has no free will. You fail to realize there has Always been those who faithfully kept Torah, throughout the generations, to this day.
Can you see a difference between your free will and the grace of Yah. You do not get it. People who really do not want to sin and want to obey Elohim’s voice and keep his Torah receive a lot of help from heaven. Elohim helps them overcome the evil. Those who rebel against him are those who followed his enemy. They also got a free will but they used it a wrong direction.
Given that logic then it would have to be said that G-d does Not test his children. He says otherwise.
I must say that of course there are many who are , were and will be elected! For example those who believed in the report .
Of course the kings of the nations who finally believed the report will see because at that time Israel will be vindicated, as Is 52,53,54 attest to.
Sara So who is Psalm 44:18 talking about? What does your version say? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Sara The worst thing is to claim sinlessness and divinity 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
You wrote ” I wasn’t running away I went to sleep”. Is this the truth?
Yah says that He knows who you are!
Should we avoid lying? You can repeat that all you need not to die is to repent.
When can Yah see that you really repent? Only when you stop doing what you keep on doing!
Is this the truth, “the man with more than one name?
What a Despicable thing to say.
Can I ask you sth? Is your sharp tounge a curse or blessing? You know that sometimes a sharp tounge can hurt but in some special situtions can even heal.
What is sth?. Do you think it is okay to essentially call someone a liar.
Why haven’t you answered the many replies? Are you ignoring them.
Which ones? Did I miss anything? I am still waiting for the answer !
Who is scared of the truth? Only that one who does not follow it
I can see that my question can not be answered .Why?
Sara Every one of your questions were answered even though they deserved no reply – take the trouble of reading those who took the trouble to respond to you 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
I am shocked but you do not know the messiah. You can not decide how to call him.
Sharbano, do you know how to distinguish a true Elohim from the false one? There is only one way. Please use your tongue and answer this question now.
Do you know the word “Elohim”. What is an Elohim. Are you aware that Moshe was Elohim.
Sara The true God revealed Himself to His people at Sinai and He apponited them His witnesses – they testify who is true and who is false 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Roberto, I do not believe in Jesus Christ!!! He is a false god created by Rome! My Elohim is Yah!! I can still see you do not get it !
If you curse Jesus Christ I do not mind. My Elohim is Yah and what about your Elohim? Is his name God, Lord which means Baal or ?????
Sara, do you know Hebrew. It doesn’t appear you do. What do the names of G-d signify, IN the Hebrew text, according to Hebrew.
I can see that I should leave this forum because there are not any honest people here and my question remains still unanswered. Jews for only Judaism do not know anything about their messiah.They do not know the “prophets” and can not call him according to their own literary words. If you can not answer my question how can you believe in what the prophets say. JeremYah was also rejected and I can see that the voice of Isa Yah is rejected by you too. You are scared to call the messiah ,the branch, David and so on. Why? You know why. You exactly know what will happen if you do it! I am an open person but I can not stand duplicity. Of course ,you have the right to accept the messiah or not.This is your personal choice but you are scared of repeating the words of the prophets and it proves one thing. You do not follow their voice but the voice and weird interpretations of some rabbies who make their own conclusions . You copy it and spread it on the Internet. The worst thing is not to have your own opinion and trust others. I think I must stop here because I was accused of trolling because I believed in his report. You can not think on your own . You are like robots who need oil from sb else. You are programmed what to say and how to react. I am leaving and finally I can say: open your ears and eyes and start to think on your own. If you do it you will be able to believe what it was written . At the moment you are slaves of the slaves . However, I wish you Yah;s grace ,the same one from ZecharYah.
I am leaving in peace!
Shalom
Sara from Poland!
The thing IS, there is NO Mashiach that has ever qualified as such, whether or not You Want to accept that. A religion that comprises mere snippets cannot substantiate itself to anyone that examines the whole.
It IS interesting that you are Not the First to come to a Jewish counter-missionary site and subsequently leave because you simply cannot Convince Jews and Righteous Gentiles to believe in a religion that is contrary to the G-d of Torah.
I mentioned trolling simply because you weren’t even considering what ANYONE had to say and, instead, wrote post after post after post. You weren’t engaging at all.
Based off what scripture?
Based upon the entirety of Tanach. Xtians, and you, want a verse that confirms a point, and in so doing have created a religion based upon Snippets. Thoroughly study the entire Tanach. It isn’t beneficial to read a text to see whether or not your messiah is there. That is NOT the point of Tanach. What you seek would relegate the writers of Tanach to be nothing more than obsessive compulsives that would put a messiah in every place.
Christianity changed the world- Still standing 2000 years later- Billions of believers-
That is Substantiation buddy.
Torah progressed into Daniel’s vision-
Did the Torah speak of that?
If so where?
Matthew Perri Exodus 31:16 is teh eternal sign 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
God created Yahsha
Man created the Golden calf
Xtianity most certainly affected the world, as in devastating destruction. If you want to speak of numbers than Buddha and Islam must also be viable alternatives.
Christianity started is Israel and by Hebrew men
bible 819 so did the golden calf 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
By ignorant and uneducated Hebrew men.
In any event, just Because something starts in Israel doesn’t make it valid according to Torah.
God created Yahsha
Man created the Golden calf
Sharbano
I didn’t know the Prophets were educated?
I thought God gave them the words to speak-
They were educated IN Torah. They were part of the Torah Chain of Transmission. If you look closely at their words you’ll find they excerpt Torah in what they write. As part of the final statement in the books of the Prophet it says “remember the Torah of Moshe”.
It is only Moshe that wrote the actual words G-d told him, whereas the prophets were given dreams and visions and had to write in their own words.
Where in the Bible does it support that?
You’re going to have to be more specific than that.
This Sara person is unbelievable.
On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 9:09 PM, 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote:
> Sharbano commented: “You’re going to have to be more specific than that.” >
This Sara person is unbelievable.
Sara it says explicitly in Deuteronomy 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:21-23 that everybody dies fro their own sin meaning it is impossible for Jesus to have died for anybody’s sin.
>>>>God created Yahsha<<<<
Another heretical, anti-christian "Christian" statement. That comment makes you a non-Christian cultist, not a Christian, according to the billions of adherents to Christianity.
Yes, God created Jesus, through his parents. Man turned him into an idolatrous physical image of God, "God in the flesh". In Exodus, the golden calf was purported to be an "image of YHWH", made in God's honor as the visible image of God. No difference between that and how Christianity turned Jesus into "The visible image of the invisible God". Exactly the same thing.
In the golden calf story you’ll find there were degrees of punishment depending upon the severity of the sin committed. The few who did actual worship, the Erev Rav, were dealt with the most severely.
Once again, he it wasn’t formed by our hands-
God has not come out and rejected him after his Resurrection-
In fact Yahsha claimed to be him-
Who else has claimed that!!!!
Fred you claim he was heretical- but you have no proof
I don’t understand how you could disagree Isaiah 53 at all if you read the whole thing it is clearly Yahushua ha Meshiac. Not only that but fulfilled the first three Holy days in first coming and will fulfill the last four in his next.
Dillan
Read with a heart open to God and you will see
If you want proof using the scientic method, check out:
Click to access Isa53JP.pdf
Click to access Isa53CP.pdf
cflat7, Unfortunately, that particular website was taken off the Internet by its owner. Fortunately, however, all of my articles (downloadable PDFs) and corresponding lesson notes (PPTs) are now located here – https://uriyosef.wordpress.com/. Those two articles you linked in your response are now accessible there. Specifically, at
and
respectively.
The day it happens all non believers will kneel like a believer will when Jesus comes back and if you are not saved Jesus says you will not enter the Kingdom of God and Jesus says if you are not pure in heart you will not enter into the Kingdom of God and again he said if you do not change and are like a child you will not enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the true Son of God and Messiah . It was foretold before it happen and what will happen in the future has been foretold. I ask you this question . EVERYTHING THAT JESUS SAYS IS HE A LIAR YES OR NO ? Like Jesus said be careful what comes out between the lips for all flows thru thy heart .
Hi David, I doubt that you really want to listen to anybody. You probably think that you only need to plant the “Seeds” and the Holy Spirit will do the rest. So, I guess that you will not be interested to hear my answer. There is too many barriers for you to listen at this time.
First, your question is not a yes and no answer. Well first, you have to think “did Jesus really say what the new testament quoted as Jesus sayings?” It might be hard for your to doubt that, but nevertheless, there is a good chance that (if not 100% inspired by the Holy Spirit) it might not be 100% of Jesus words.
If you are not willing to consider if the word of the New Testament could not be 100% inspired, then you have never really considered if your belief is TRUE. Yes of course, Jesus said he is the messiah, and if 100% inspired by G-d, then yes he is the messiah. This does not require much thinking to arrive at that conclusion, but only have to BELIEVE.
Now, if you would have been in the time of Jesus, and Jesus would have said “Believe in Me, for remission of Sins” or such other saying that is found in the New Testament. Then, what would you have required of any Jew/Gentile to consider before blindly accept him as messiah? When G-d said you should not have other “mighty” before ME, that could be a clear and undeniable reason why, you should have ponder if you should have follow that MAN. I mean, curse is the man that follow a man, and if a man is asking to follow HIM in order to be accepted by G-d, then, well, it also does not required a Doctorate in “Common sense” to realize that the guy was a fraud!
So, depending of your assumption, you will arrive at the conclusion you want. But I believe that the fact that the Hebrew Bible is clear and precede that New Testament, that it should be considered the truth and basis to accept the New Testament (Jesus) or Not.
David, you say Jesus is the messiah. What does “messiah” mean?
David
That is a good question. I would answer, not everything. But does it matter to you if he said even One thing wrong? How about two things wrong? At what point would you stop believing in him? Three things wrong? etc…..
Jesus says no will see thy father unless they come thru him !
The question David, is why should we, or any body, believe that?
bobby wren it says explicitly in Deuteronomy 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:21-23 that everybody dies fro their own sin meaning it is impossible for Jesus to have died for anybody’s sin.
May the Lord grant you wisdom and grant you revelation to know that Jesus Christ is the Messiah we have been waiting for. Shalom
Alex
ThankYou. And if he doesn’t may he grant you the grace to realize that he is not. 🙂
“Waiting for?”
Well you are about 2000 years too late there buddy. He was already here and he is long gone. There won’t be a Jesus sequel anytime soon. . .(Or any time at all)
What about specifically Isiah 53:5?
“5But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.”
“…pained for our transgressions…”?
Who else can that be, other then Jesus?
It can’t be the Jews as a people, because then there would be no “we” who’s transgressions *he* (we) would have been “pained” for.
It can’t be Jacob since there was no “us” for it to be for, unless you want to say he was pained for his future descendants?
Is that what it means?
Is there any solid evidence to indicate that, is what it means?
Jacob This passage is explained elsewhere on this blog – please search under the category of “Isaiah 53” – part 3 of this video series (I don’t know when it will post – its up to Jews for Judaism Canada) will directly address this passage. In short the “we” and “us” of the first 9 verses of Isaiah 53 are the kings mentioned in 52:15 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
There is nothing about this post that convinces me that Jesus was not the suffering servant.
Hi David,
The Church has taught that Tenach contains a great number of clues as to the identity of the Messiah, and that all one has to do in order to discover the identity of the Messiah is study these clues and find a figure in history that matches them. It is, the Church claims, highly improbable—nearly impossible—that any figure would be a match to all of these clues given long before the birth of such a figure. The Church cites upward of 300 messianic prophecies that reveal the identity of the Messiah, all of which are fulfilled by—they say—Jesus of Nazareth. So unlikely is it that any person would fulfill all of these prophecies, that it could only be accomplished by the providence of God. Before accepting that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, it would be prudent for us to scrutinize the evidence.
Let us, for the sake of argument, say that the prophets described the physical appearance of the Messiah in the following way: He will be short, balding, with dark hair around the crown of his head, bespectacled due to his poor vision, with a constant five o’clock shadow. Moreover, he will have a potbelly and poor posture, a thoroughly unimpressive man as far as his appearance goes. And, let us say also that a certain man is presented to us as a candidate for Messiah. He is tall, with a full head of flowing blond hair. He wears no glasses and has a well-kept goatee and moustache. His posture is perfect, giving him an air of regality. He is trim, well-muscled, and certainly does not have a potbelly. We can well understand why many people would find this fellow impressive when taking in his appearance. But the question is not whether or not he is impressive; it is whether or not he fits the image painted by the prophets. Of course, he does not, and one must conclude that, however impressive he may be, he is not the Messiah.
Let us go a step further. Let us imagine that some people are so impressed with the blond fellow that they insist that he is the Messiah, despite not fitting description given by the prophets. This is precisely what has happened with the Church. The Church claims that Isaiah 53 describes the Messiah. For the sake of argument, let us accept this claim (but only for the sake of argument). According to the Church, the Messiah is described in this chapter as a thoroughly despised man. Yet, this description cannot at all be applied to Jesus. He is the object of devotion of one of the largest religions of the world. Even adherents to other religions frequently express their admiration for Jesus, though they do not accept Christianity. Similarly, many atheists consider Jesus to be a great moral teacher, admiring the man, while arguing that later his followers attributed to him claims he likely never made of himself. Thus, many who dislike the Church, greatly esteem Jesus. This is not a man who is greatly despised. Jesus does not fit the description. The clues do not point to him.
Indeed, despite the bombast of the Church’s claims—Jesus fulfilled more than 300 prophecies!—virtually none of clues they find in Tenach can be said to point to Jesus. As has been demonstrated here and elsewhere many times previously, many of those passages the Church claims to be Messianic prophecies, i.e. clues to the identity of the Messiah, are no such thing. These are verses and partial verses removed from their context in order to force upon them a new meaning. They are nothing but red herrings created by the Church.
And, we see frequently that even if we accepted these clues for what the Church says they are, we would still be unable to know that they were fulfilled by Jesus. For example, if the Messiah is to be born of a virgin, we certainly would have no means of knowing that Jesus was born in such a manner. This was not a matter investigated and verified at the time of Mary’s pregnancy. The claim was made when no evidence could be given to establish Mary’s virginity. Similarly, if the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, it could not be known that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. In John 7, it is made clear that Jesus’ contemporaries did not know that he was from the City of David. They only knew him to come from the Galilee. Therefore, Jesus cannot be said to have matched these clues, because even if he did, we could not know it.
But where does this strange notion that one must scour the prophets for clues to the Messiah come from? Tenach does not warn the student of Torah that he must keep a vigilant eye in order to identify the Messiah when he comes. Indeed, when the Messiah is described, he is described as a king ruling in Jerusalem during a time when the world is at peace, a temple stands in Jerusalem, and the entire world acknowledges that HaShem is God. To identify such a figure, one need not find hidden clues. His identity will be obvious. But, of course, none of this was fulfilled by Jesus. Nevertheless, some people insisted that he was the Messiah, and they created this scriptural scavenger hunt in order to justify their claims. This promise given by God will be later fulfilled by Jesus in a second appearance, they say. In the meantime, one must parse the scriptures in a way to find hidden references to Jesus. But this is not to learn the identity of the Messiah, not really. It is to justify the prior belief that Jesus is the Messiah.
And yet, the evidence contradicts them. Not only did Jesus not fulfill the promises to be fulfilled by the Messiah, he does not fit well into the picture of the suffering servant. The figure of Isaiah 53 is much despised; Jesus is much beloved. He may suit the popular imagination of what the Messiah should be, like our tall, blond candidate above. But he does not match the description of the prophets. If Isaiah 53 describes the Messiah, then assuredly Jesus is not the Messiah.
Jim
Indeed.
But the discussion cannot even begin without first defining “Messiah” (with a capital “M”). Why? Because Christians and Jews define the term differently. Thus, we look at each other’s proofs and dismiss them because they don’t fit each side’s definition. We are arguing at cross purposes.
The Jewish definition of the Messiah fits the Hebrew Bible’s description, as Jim wrote above. The description is clear, plain, and unmistakable.
The Christian definition of Messiah is extra-biblical. According to Christianity, the Messiah is a divine figure who suffers and dies to redeem those who accept him from sin.
If we can’t agree which definition is correct, we can end the discussion right there.
Well written Jim. The only issue I see is that the way you have taken the possibility of Jesus fitting Isaiah 53 out of the equation, because he is beloved by billions, would likewise take the righteous remnant of Israel out of the equation for a reason to make gentiles repent along a slightly different, though related vein.
If the context of the passage is as the rabbis say, the nations deeming the righteous remnant of Israel as despised, cursed by God, etc. and then having a change of heart, wouldn’t said nations have to have a presupposition about this testament’s God in the 1st place or about this nation? Or wouldn’t they have to see Israel exalted 1st to say, “this is a wise and discerning nation,” to then turn around and feel guilt and repent over former actions?
What I mean is, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 (where the nations are speaking) seems to hinge on some ideas of the opinions that the gentile nations have
1. The nations have a specific opinion about this book’s God
2. Have a negative picture of Israel’s relationship to this God. (how would pagan nations know what it means to be “cursed of God” when they have no notion of the book’s internal picture of God’s character, will, or very little interaction with Jews?
3. The assumption that the nations would see Israel rise after a battle and then feel guilt about their former treatment of Israel the servant in particular.
Nations rise and fall constantly, empires plunder etc.? To the gentile world, in antiquity, even today, battle is just another Wednesday. Why would 1 more battle with a righteous remnant of Israel change centuries of prior behavior and pre existing cultures and traditions?
4. The nations in response to their guilt Would in repenting throw away their idols willingly and of their own volition.
5. When the battle is won by Israel and the nations recognize her, the survivors carry Israelites back home and help them rebuild.
Per the rabbinic interpretation, this biblical picture of the internal monologue of the nations feeling guilt and introspection concerning Israel is very strange, even for the Bible.
Everywhere else in the Torah, except here, the gentile nations are basically portrayed as the baddies, subject to punishments caused by their own sloth and evil deeds. As a whole they are not viewed as introspective about their actions.
At best gentiles are the passive tools Hashem uses to chasten Israel or bring about providence, and sometimes they convert.
Even when used by God as a tool, they go overboard, requiring that God punish them even more.
The Bible’s default picture for a gentile, most especially anyone who is a gentile that isn’t a convert, or one who isn’t dwelling in the land as an ally is basically, “the gentiles will do what they will do, wallowing in their idolatry, returning to it like a dog to its vomit, and providentially “somehow,” God’s will gets done.”
Even Deuteronomy 4 where Israel is told “don’t worship my entourage” the text just assumes a default role for the nations of “don’t worry about when the gentiles do it, I have apportioned these for them.”
In essence, the picture you get of the nations throughout 95% of Nach is one of nations built on toxic apathy. The people who sacrifice their own children, offer their own daughters to be mistreated, are prideful even in the event of certain doom etc. when bad things happen to the gentiles, they respond with a desire for vengeance, apathy, or increased devotion to their idols.
The authors of Tanach saw gentiles as obstinate in the majority of cases with such surety that they posited that the only possible way these characteristics would change would be through a war to end all wars.
In a massive battle, Israel would gain the upper hand, and then it will magically dawn on the gentiles to feel badly and act differently than they always have as 53 says?
Even if I grant the rabbinic reading of Isaiah 53, the reading seems to jump the shark in more than a few areas, and assume things, showing gentiles acting very differently than they normally would, even per the Tanakh.
In many ways, its almost like the rabbinic reading of Isaiah 53 is more plausible if Jesus and Muhammad act as a preexisting catalyst to make the reading more viable.
Muslim and Christian gentiles do have a specific opinion about God that they could be wrong about that could be corrected.
Muslim and Christian gentiles have persecuted Jews after reading their book and having a unique opinion about it.
Muslim and Christian gentiles have a reason to feel horrible about how they have treated Jews (once given the right reading.)
In light of a horrible war these guys have had reason to feel guilt and change stance.
These movements did see gentiles abandon their own old world beliefs of their own volition.
Do you see what I mean about this? It seems like even if I want to avoid Jesus in the passage, I couldn’t see the rabbinic reading as making sense if we were talking about the old world Pagan nations that the Tanakh describes for itself everywhere else except in these two chapters of one book.
For 9 books before Isaiah the nations act the way the Nach usually describes. The later books describe the nations acting that way. All of a sudden in chapter 52-53 of Isaiah, they are introspective after fighting with Israel? Of all the battles before this one, the nations went, NAH! Isaiah 52-53 comes along and the nations say “hmmm…maybe we miscalculated and we suck and are sorry.”
Hi Con,
I know you addressed this to Jim, so I hope you’ll forgive me for jumping in. I’d like to show you that your reading of Tanach regarding gentiles is selective; furthermore, your understanding of the rabbinic view of gentiles is incomplete.
We do see instances of gentile nations and/or individuals showing introspection or a change of heart. The most famous example would be the whole-scale repentance of the city of Nineveh. The story of Na’aman in Kings II is another. There are more examples but time for me is short.
I would further point out that this prophecy in Isaiah 53 is an end-of-days prophecy that has not yet come true, like many others which proclaim that the knowledge of God will cover the earth like water covers the sea, that Israel will be vindicated in the eyes of the gentiles (of which this passage is one), and that the nations will be united in their service of God. This makes Isaiah 53 not only not unusual, but rather typical of the utopian vision the prophets described.
Finally, the rabbis’ held a far more positive view of gentiles than you suppose, as evidenced by many Talmudic passages that describe cordial conversations (in which gentiles ask probing and introspective questions), friendships, and other positive views. I will try to post some examples in a different comment.
I hope this clarifies how the traditional Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 is in fact consistent with Tanach and the rabbinic worldview.
Con, here are some sources for some of my points above:
Universal Understanding Among the Nations (aka Universal Peace)
Isaiah 2:4: He will judge among the nations and settle the arguments of many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.
Isaiah 65:25: Wolf and lamb will graze as one, a lion—like cattle—will eat straw, a snake’s food will be dirt; they will not inflict harm nor destruction in all My holy mountain, says the Lord.
Jeremiah 33:9, 16: And this will be for Me for the sake of rejoicing, for praise and for splendor before all the nations of the earth who will hear about the goodness that I will be doing for them, and will fear and tremble over all the goodness and all the peace that I will do for it. In those days, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in security; and this is what people will call [Jerusalem]: The Lord Is Our Righteous One.
Isaiah 11:9: They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain, for the earth will be as filled with knowledge of the Lord as water covering the sea bed.
Isaiah 45:23: I swear by Myself, righteousness has gone forth from My mouth, a word that will not be rescinded: that to Me shall every knee kneel and every tongue swear.
Isaiah 54:13: All your children will be students of the Lord, and your children’s peace will be abundant.
Isaiah 66:18, 19, 23: I [know] their actions and their thoughts; [the time] has come to gather all the nations and tongues; they will come and see My glory. I will put a sign upon them and send some of them as survivors to the nations—Tarsus, Pul, Lud, the Archers, Tubal and Javan, the distant islands who have not heard of My fame and not seen My glory—and they will declare my glory among the nations. It shall be that at every New Moon and on every Sabbath all mankind will come to prostrate themselves before Me, says the Lord.
Jeremiah 3:17: At that time people will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord and all the nations will be gathered to her in the Name of the Lord—to Jerusalem; they will no longer follow the visions of their evil heart.
Jeremiah 31:33: They will no longer teach each man to his fellow, each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord! For all of them will know Me, from their smallest to their greatest—the word of the Lord—when I will forgive their iniquity and will no longer recall their sin.
Ezekiel 38:23: I will be exalted and I will be sanctified, and I will make Myself known before the eyes of many nations; then they will know that I am the Lord.
Zephaniah 3:9: For then I will change the nations [to speak] a pure language, so that they will all proclaim the name of the Lord, to worship Him with a united resolve.
Zechariah 8:20-23: Thus said the Lord, Master of Legions: It will yet be that peoples will come, as well as inhabitants of many cities. The dwellers of one [city] will go to [those of] the other, saying, “Let us go and supplicate before the Lord and seek out the Lord, Master of Legions! [They will answer] I too will go! Many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek out the Lord, Master of Legions, in Jerusalem, and to supplicate before the Lord. In those days it will happen that ten men, of all the [different] languages of the nations, will take hold, they will take hold of the corner of the garment of a Jewish man, saying, Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you!
Zechariah: 14:16: It shall be that all who are left over from all the nations who had invaded Jerusalem will come up every year to worship the King Lord, Master of Legions, and to celebrate the festival of Succos.
Vindication of the Jews in the Eyes of the World
Isaiah 25:1-8: [I’m only typing starting from verse 7.] On this mountain he will eliminate the faces [wearing] veils, that are veiled, of all the nations, and the masks that mask all the nations….He will remove the shame of His nation from upon the entire earth, for the Lord has spoken.
Isaiah 30:26: The light of the moon will be like the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times as strong, like the light of seven days, on the day that the Lord bandages the injury of His people and heals the wound of His blow.
Isaiah 52:7-10: How pleasant are the footsteps of the herald upon the mountains announcing peace, heralding good tidings, announcing salvation, saying unto Zion, Your God has reigned! The voice of your lookouts, they will raise their voice, they will sing glad song in unison, O ruins of Jerusalem, for the Lord will have comforted his people; He will have redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord has bared His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; all ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
Isaiah 60:1-3: Arise! Shine! For your light has arrived, and the glory of the Lord shines upon you. For behold, darkness may cover the earth and a thick cloud [may cover] the kingdoms, but upon you the Lord will shine, and His glory will be seen upon you. Nations will walk by your light and kings by the brilliance of your shine.
Rabbinic View of Gentiles
The righteous of all nations will have a share in the world of eternal bliss (Tosefta Sanhedrin, XIII:2).
If a pagan prays and evokes God’s name, Amen must be said (Jerusalem, Berachos, 8).
Antonius once asked Rabbi Judah the Prince, “Will I have a share in the world to come?” To which the latter replied, “Yes.” “But is it not written, ‘Nothing will remain in the house of Esau’?” “True,” Rabbi Judah answered, “but only if they do the deeds of Esau” (Avodah Zarah 10b).
No one can become a Kohen or Levite unless he is so born. But if anyone wishes to become a holy and religious man, he can do so even though he is a pagan (Numbers Rabba, 8).
Heaven and earth I call to be witnesses, be it non-Jew or Jew, man or woman, man-servant or maid-servant, according to the work of every human being does the holy spirit rest upon him (Yalkut, Section 42).
Whether Israelite or heathen, if he only executes a righteous deed, God will recompense him for it (Tanna Devai Eliyahu, Section 13).
(Fortunately, I had gathered all these sources in a long-ago conversation with a Christian acquaintance and had saved them, so it was quick work to copy and paste.)
One more point, about the recognition that the people of Israel is a wise and understanding one.
This is not a contradiction, as throughout history both anti- and philo-semites recognized this. The anti-semites used words like “crafty” and “cunning,” but that is still a sort of recognition. Till today, students of history and observers of the world know that the contribution of Jews to the collective knowledge of the world is way out of proportion to their numbers.
This is true at the same time that it is true that for most of our history we were hated and despised wherever we went. And rising anti-semitism even here in the US (and frighteningly so in Europe) on both the left and the right shows that it’s not yet over for us.
Concerned Reader Thank you for bringing up a worthy point. Throughout the Scriptures the Gentile nations are generally portrayed as you say. However in these specific chapters in Isaiah (40 – 66) we get a different picture. These chapters describe a revelation that is witnessed by the ends of the earth (as per Psalm 98:3) that gives Gentiles understanding of truth and that they accept and acknowledge that understanding – 40:5; 45:14,23; 48:20; 49:7,22,23; 55:5; 56:7; 60:3,10,,14; 61:5,9,11; 62:12; 66:19.
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Shalom Rabbi Blumenthal,
Good day.
I went through the verses you listed in your comment . These verses shows Gentile kings and individuals following and serving Israel , acknowledging there is no other God and that God is with Israel and has chosen her . However I do not see the depth of reflection by these Gentile kings/individuals about Israel in these verses as compared to the depth of reflection about the Servant of Isaiah 53.
I am confused specifically with the description of nations being healed through the wounds of the Servant. The Servant was punished for the sins of others and his suffering brought healing to them. Israel is in exile as she is chastised for her own sins. How is it possible that Israel’s suffering during exile a healing for the nations?
Could it be that Isaiah 53 is an the internal reflection of the Jewish community about the Servant ?
Sharon S This may help > https://judaismresources.net/2018/08/29/temple-vessels/
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Shalom Rabbi Blumenthal ,
Good day, thank you for responding to this comment.
Your article reminded me of a similar conversation we had on another of your article on Isaiah 53, “Turning on a Dime II” here https://judaismresources.net/2021/06/08/turning-on-a-dime-ii-excerpt-from-continuation-of-discussion/#comment-157770
I understand that your interpretation of Isaiah 53 in light of the responsibilities and liabilities of the children of Kehat who carried God’s vessels in the wilderness as per Isaiah 52:11 and Numbers 4. I do not agree with that approach and stated my reasons there.
As such, I will put to rest my query on the nations being healed through the wounds of the Servant here.
In my opinion, Isaiah 53 is a conversation or internal reflection of Israel about the Servant, as can be seen by the depth of reflection about the Servant of 53 in contrast to the acknowledgement of the Gentile kings/individuals about Israel in other verses . Perhaps you should look into this. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Shabbat Shalom
Dina, my picture of the nations is not incomplete. You failed to take notice of the nuance in my position.
My point about the nations is that while there are positive views of gentiles in rabbinic literature, and in Nach, it is in the realm of individuals, or as you pointed out, a city IE Ninveh, that you find the “righteous of the nations.” Its the Ruth’s the Rahab’s, the Naaman’s, the ger, etc.
very rarely if at all does an entire nation or empire as a whole come to a completely different view due to their own introspection. Its why in Jewish theology and in Christian theology too you have Gog and Magog, IE a giant war being posited as the catalyst that will cause this unprecedented mass repentance that we have never seen before.
The problem is, wars seldom cause repentance, they cause resentment. We all know this by direct observation and experience.
“This is not a contradiction, as throughout history both anti- and philo-semites recognized this.”
yes, that is true, and I never meant to imply there was a contradiction.
However, anti semites recognize with envy, jealousy, and a self seeking desire for their own power. Even the 1 prophet to the nations recognized in Torah Bilam, is the epitome of this kind of person.
Every criticism that an anti semite has of Jews and Judaism, everything that they have made up as the alleged vices and flaws, or “grand plots” of the Jews, they themselves as Nazis, white supremacists, nationalists, etc. would love to practice for themselves and their own benefit.
A Neo Nazi will say with a straight face. “Jews have a nation for themselves, I just want the same for me.” They are completely devoid of any sense of irony, empathy, or self reflection. It proves my point quite honestly.
An antisemite says Jews are too nationalistic and have divided loyalties, they control media, the banks, etc. while under his breath and in his heart the nationalist says “its ok for me, but not for thee,” as he covets these characteristics that he says are vices.
Isaiah 52-53 shows the interior monologue of the nations by contrast as being that of introspective people truly remorseful, realizing that Israel’s suffering was due to their own errors.
My whole point, which I think you missed entirely, (no offense) is that the nations in those two chapters are acting completely differently of their own volition than nations as a whole do anywhere else in 95% (thought I had made room for the outliers you mentioned.) of Tanakh.
Its almost like the gentiles in 52-53 already believe in the scriptures, already have opinions about the one God, already have a reason on their own from their own lived experience to be introspective and feel guilt.
Hi Concerned Reader,
I understand the point you are making here. If that is the case, the kings or leaders of the nations are not the ones who are describing the Suffering Servant of 53 as per the Rabbinical interpretation. They do not have the capability to reflect and to realize their errors.
Isaiah 53 is a unique passage by itself and should not be interpreted in light of surrounding passages.
Sharon, I am not trying to imply that you cant read the chapters as the rabbis do, but that in those chapters the nations as a whole are being uncharacteristically contemplative, and that doesn’t make a lot of sense if we were talking about the non Jewish nations as they are described EVERYWHERE else in the books. Off course the gentile kings would have the ability to reflect, and to change, but the Torah points out that they don’t do that except in rare circumstances.
An individual here, a city there, some god fearers, etc.
I think about Pharaoh. His kid gets killed by a plague, after thousands of his people have already died due to his own pride, and only then does he temporarily relent. Then he goes “Nah” and decides to chase Israel down with Chariots.
People look at the Christians like they are absolute illiterate morons for reading Jesus into those chapters as if nothing at all interesting occurred that could make them think he were significant.
Jim is right, you can plug any schmoe in that chapter. What makes it interesting is that one of those schmoes actually didn’t fade into obscurity.
Hi Concerned Reader,
I understand that the nations will eventually develop the capability to reflect and realize their errors in misjudging the Jewish people. The nations of today have access to Jewish Scriptures and awareness of the Jewish people which is not widely available in times of antiquity.
My point- is the focus of discussion on Isaiah 53 about plugging Jesus or some other schmoe as the candidate for the Suffering Servant? Should we also focus on who is describing the Servant of 53?
As you pointed out, the tanakh generally does not paint the nations as being contemplative of their actions.
Could it be that Isaiah 53 is describing the internal reflection of the Jewish community about the Servant?
Concerned Reader,
I have not entirely followed this resurrected conversation. When I have a moment, I will give your comments greater attention. I do not understand this among your latest comments:
“Jim is right, you can plug any schmoe in that chapter. What makes it interesting is that one of those schmoes actually didn’t fade into obscurity.”
I do not recall writing anything like that. Perhaps my memory fails me. Are you referring back to my comment of July 20, 2022? Scanning that comment, I do not see where I wrote that. Perhaps somewhere else? Or perhaps I am just overlooking it. If you do not mind, please refresh my memory.
Thank you,
Jim
I would further point out that this prophecy in Isaiah 53 is an end-of-days prophecy that has not yet come true
And yet, if I as a non Jew lived thousands of years ago, in the time of the Indo-Aryans, the Egypians, the Assyruans, the Greeks, Romans, etc. the notions contained in these prophecies would seem utterly absurd on their face, and I would have no point of contact with the ideas in the book.
If a gentile nation had a book saying “one day the Jews will completely change the way their ancestors experienced their deity, and they will finally worship fairies, Jews would laugh their asses off, and ask “for what reason would I change what I know about myself, my heritage, and my god?
Lets assume you and I are playing a board game. Thousands of years ago your instruction book is talking about chess. I have an instruction book talking about Yahtzee. monopoly, chutes and ladders, and about 30,000 other games. Games so utterly different as to be useless to communicate about.
Today though (because of the way history has gone) your instruction book is about chess, and mine has fundamentally shifted from all these different games, to Checkers.
still a completely different game I grant, but now you, the brilliant chess master can educate me, the idiot playing checkers on the rudimentary aspects of properly understanding and playing chess. We at least finally have a small basis of contact on which to build understanding.And its understanding that can be built without a fight.
1 tiny culture with its unique story is going to override the lived experiences and zeal for tradition that other nations likewise have about their own cultures of their own volition?
Those ancient polytheistic cultures would cling to the experiences and stories of their ancestors, contained in their books and tales, as surely as you do, and for the exact same reasons.
Ask any Hindu why he listens to his book. He will say, “my texts are older than theirs, its my people’s way, just as Torah is theirs.”
Why am I here as a gentile even remotely entertaining the notion that what is written in the Bible about the divine has any merit? Why would I as a non Jew with heritage in many different nations with many thousands of faiths that used to coexist with each other in the face of profound differences find reason to alter centuries of prior belief and practice because of a war or someone’s testimony?
I know the reason why I was ever exposed to the Bible and its stories in the 1st place, on what basis I believed them to be true, and that experience in and of itself was a catalyst to show that my opinion about your god, your book, your religion could be wrong. That experience itself was a path to introspection and change.
If I had not had that exposure, there is no guarantee whatsoever that I ever would have learned any of that. We would have been playing two completely different games of life, with no point of contact.
Jim so matter of factly states that the Church has applied Jesus to the Nach, and that we likewise could have applied it to some short fat bald guy, while glossing over that this pretender JC is the catalyst for why so many are here even entertaining these questions. lol
And also, the Tanakh has been applied in like fashion to many a short bald dude, and in the same fashion that the Nazarene gets plugged in, it just so happens this one Galilean 2000 years ago got some gas on the fire.
I don’t blame the Christians for reading JC in, because that’s their entire frame of reference. Hell, its even the Muslim’s frame of reference.
Their Jesus in the Quran is basically like a gnostic Jesus who appeared to die by crucifixion, (but didn’t actually) who made life from non life (but didn’t actually) who gave a gospel (but didn’t actually) who was then clarified by Muhammad.
If you were a Muslim, you would be here because Muhammad picked up steam from the Jews and Christians and said “hey, I believe in Abraham, and in Jesus too”
That’s why they would come. That is how a future Jewish messiah claimant will be able to say “told you so morons.”
we have a frame of reference, and thousands of years ago, no such frame existed.
and my point is, Jim walked down the same road I did. He too was playing checkers instead of chess and found the game wanting.
So many points to ponder, Con. I don’t think I’ll be able to do justice to them all! I take your point that you were discussing the nature of whole nations–okay, I’ll concede the point. But I made another mistake. I uncritically accepted your interpretation of the mood of the nations in the passage under question. I disagree that they are contemplative and introspective.
It seems obvious to me from context that in this end-of-days prophecy, the nations of the world are shocked into their acknowledgment. The exaltation of Israel will be something they will not be able to dismiss or ignore. You can’t ignore universal peace because it has never happened before. You can’t ignore universal knowledge of God because it has never happened before. You certainly can’t ignore the vindication of the Jews, because that has never happened before either.
This won’t be like Pharaoh, because if you accept the biblical narrative, Pharaoh acted consistently with the narrative: God hardened his heart so he could perform the requisite miracles.
At the end of days, we aren’t told that God will harden anyone’s heart against Israel.
So the passage in Isaiah 53 is simply a description of the feelings of shock the nations of the world will feel when the truth is revealed.
That’s why the fact that ancient cultures would have been baffled by this prophecy and that modern religions don’t accept it is irrelevant. Remember, the target audience here is the Jewish people, and Isaiah is offering them a comforting vision to hold onto in exile. It isn’t relevant to the other nations and isn’t meant to be. They are meant to be shocked into recognition by events they won’t be able to dismiss.
Christians do not accept the Hebrew Bible’s vision of a utopian future in which the Jewish people are vindicated. They believe, to the contrary, that they will be swept up into the clouds and the unbelievers will be left to die.
As for plugging Jesus in, I do not think it’s remarkable that of all the schmoes that were plugged into the Bible, one managed to stay relevant. That’s because only one schmoe trying to start a new religion was plugged into the Bible; they weren’t exactly a dime a dozen. And this particular schmoe was plugged in only because Christians craved the validation of the Hebrew Scriptures. This was a grave error, as both could not be reconciled. The people who knew this well were the Jews, and so they suffered greatly for this bad judgment call. It would have been better to make a clean break and leave our scripture out of it.
It is true that you can find support for almost any sort of nonsense in the Hebrew Bible. Jim wrote a clever essay showing how to justify tree worship using proof texts the same way Christians use them. But the fact is, no other religion or belief system felt the need to do that.
Finally, and unrelated to any of my arguments, after years of respectful (if at times heated) dialogue here, I think we have shown that we can disagree respectfully with Christians and not think they are illiterate morons because they believe as they do.
Hi Con, I think we’ve been arguing at cross purposes because I did not understand your argument. I reread the comments, and I think you’re explaining why, from a Christian perspective, it’s reasonable to assume that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, not necessarily why the Christian interpretation correct.
If I have that right, then, actually, I agree with you. For those for whom the story of Jesus comes first, that makes sense. Heck, if you had shown me that passage out of context in the days before I became interested in Christian-Jewish polemics, I would have been, like, “Wait, what?”
The difference, of course, between a Christian and me is perspective. After being shown that passage, I might have then have opened the Book of Isaiah and reviewed the relevant passage. But I would have immediately found the flaws in the Christian interpretation because I would have been seeing this not only in the context of the surrounding chapters, but also in the context of the vast expanse of Jewish history and tradition spanning 3,500 years.
I hope that clarifies!
Hi Dina,
I understand from your comment that Isaiah 53 is a reflection of the nations who are shocked when Israel is exalted . It is meant to be a message of comfort for Israel .
If that is the case ,I am confused with the description of nations being healed through the wounds of the Servant. The Servant was punished for the sins of others and his suffering brought healing to them. Israel is in exile as she is chastized for her own sins. How is it possible that Israel’s suffering during exile a healing for the nations?
Thank you.
Hi Sharon, this question and many others are discussed in this comprehensive video series by Rabbi Michael Skobac.
https://jewsforjudaism.ca/our-videos/isaiah-53/
At the end of days, we aren’t told that God will harden anyone’s heart against Israel.
Exactly. To your point, it says God will give men a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone.
My point is, there has to be something that drives and establishes that change of heart beyond an appocalyptic war, or an outpouring of Unprecedented miraculous events.
That was partially my point about bringing up Pharoah. The point stands because it doesn’t say God hardened the heart of the whole nation of Egypt, just that the heart of Pharoah was hardened.
Moses was Moshiach v 1.0 ultra plus nation builder edition
Even so, the people of Egypt who likewise lost their firstborn, and who likewise saw all the same miracles still obeyed Pharoah to chase Israel down.
The Exodus did not shock the “Egyptian” out of my ancestors. They kept their national identity, language, religions, etc.
People would be shocked by a world without war that’s true, but would such a thing shock one out of their own culture and identity?
That is what is being posited in these chapters and in isaiah 11.
As I pointed out above, if I wrote a book that claimed to you Dina that an event would happen that would shock or convince all Jewish people to become fairy worshipers, you would laugh and call me nuts.
The fealty of your nation to its identity and foundation is very strong, likewise with other nations and cultures.
This is why I stress that the nations as a whole seem way more contemplative, and it seems like there is more room in there.
Jim, part of what you wrote is quoted below, IE what you wrote to David
“Let us, for the sake of argument, say that the prophets described the physical appearance of the Messiah in the following way: He will be short, balding, with dark hair around the crown of his head, bespectacled due to his poor vision, with a constant five o’clock shadow. Moreover, he will have a potbelly and poor posture, a thoroughly unimpressive man”
The implication and rhetorixal point being the Christians have painted their Schmuck into the text, and one could describe any figure and find verses to then disingenuously claim “my guy fits. Such and such verses”
Concerned Reader,
Thank you for identifying the passage to which you were referring. Forgive me, but I believe you have misunderstood the passage. The point of that paragraph is the opposite of how you represented it. I do not argue that any “you can plug any schmoe in that chapter.” The paragraph illustrates that some people cannot be plugged into the chapter, particularly Jesus, because the chapter lists certain qualities of the Servant of which Jesus is not in possession, whatever attraction people may have to him.
Jim
Jim You say that Jesus couldn’t fit because he was beloved. A quality the servant lacks.
Nowadays, after his dying he would have been beloved by billions of Christians.
In his day when he actually lived, he was disliked by members of his own sect for playing fast and loose with the Torah’s Commandments, he was disliked by the chief priests for his outlandish claims, he was abandoned by his own followers when he was arrested by the Romans, called a crazy man by his own family, and was executed by the Romans just as thousands of other people had been for crimes against the state.
In your writing you deal selectively with Jesus as he has been perceived after billions of people were affected by his life and teaching.
That would be like saying that the Jewish people can’t be the servant because they have made so many cultural contributions for which they are recognized.
If we were dealing with Gentile cultures from thousands of years ago, where the Hebrew Bible hadn’t been believed in by billions of gentiles, sure we could see Israel as the servant because they were disliked for being different.
But today Israel is known all around the world by Gentiles all around the world who have never even met Jewish people.
You are also being selective:
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Crowds-Around-Jesus
Hi Dina,
I think you missed the account in the Gospels where the crowds chose Barrabas to be released and for Jesus to be crucified (Mark 15, Matthew 27, Luke 23).
So which is it? Did the crowds hate him or love him? I think it’s fair to say that, according to the Christian scriptural accounts, as a preacher he was quite popular. It’s also fair to say that he was not universally loved. That’s not the same as one who is universally despised. The description in Isaiah 53 simply does not match the gospel narrative.
Dina, you do not believe in the Christian Bible. You don’t believe he is special, worthy of worship, or that he means anything at all of significance. That is relevant to why the Christians read him in there.
Atheists believe he was some whacky 1st century preacher, or even that he was a myth outright. The good ole CS Lewish “liar lunatic lord” bit.
You remember the dialogue I had with that Jesus myther and atheist on here?
Do you think for one moment that while he believed Jesus was a myth that he found the Torah more plausible or historical? NO.
It says crowds followed Jesus, Jesus is great, because its a Christian Bible. A piece of biblical fan fiction written by people who already like him and believe in him.
I don’t believe in these books in the sense that every word is perfect, because history proves to me beyond any doubt that any of the biblical books are.
LOL Am I supposed to be aghast with surprise if a Quran says Muhammad is awesome, or if the Nach says David was humble and the apple of God’s eye?
If I look at David in a hollistic fashion, he is not great, he is as flawed as humans could be, and what makes him remarkable is the impact he had. David reflecting on his own flaws is what makes him impactful.
Looking at Jesus holistically, his movement was small, and only got huge after a few centuries. The same New Testament that says he is awesome, popular, and people love him, also says everything I mentioned about being unpopular, as well as just history. The fact that you all can comb through the New Testament to so thoroughly criticize everything about him including such absurd readings as I have seen on the blog that he “killed pigs and stole a donkey” shows this.
You have no shortage of tools at your disposal to rip the Christian books apart. To that end, I wonder why Karaism is not bigger among the people, because their writing is like a molotov to the Christian text.
It so fundamentally undermines the chief premise that the guy rose from the grave, that I wonder why Sadducean like ideas took some 9 centuries to show up again after the Christian movement emerged.
These issues go for both Tanakh and the Christian books, and the Quran. If you wanna find a thing to criticize, boy oh boy you can, whether you believe its inspired or not.
My point is, the problems you could say with plugging Jesus in are the same kind of problems you would have with plugging anyone in. Religion is a huge exercise in trying to see the glass half full in a world full of issues, and cups full of holes.
When Israel 1st became a state only a small handful of rabbis ever saw God as having anything to do with it, because the state started with a bunch of secular people. People came out against the state in some circles initially.
Today, thousands of rabbis see providence at work in Israel and make statements to that effect every day. Nothing is perfect, you look for fingerprints of god where you can see them.
In my opinion Jesus fits the verses better now than he did when I was an actual Christian because of knowing him being quite unremarkable. Other Jewish messianic groups plugged their guys in, in like fashion to Jesus, (you could even plug the Baptist John in there) and all of these guys saw themselves as part of a righteous remnant of Israel at the selfsame time.
IE interpretations of Isaiah 53 are not even mutually exclusive.
What is interesting (to me at least) is that Jesus was the dude that actually had an insane impact (huge imperfections included, across two monotheistic religions.)
Gentiles walked through that man and his movement as a door to the bible, and they walked away from centuries of preexisting pagan religions.
I am not going to blame regular people for plugging him in when that is the backdrop of their actual cultural experience, and I see Jewish people plug their own claimants in by the same route.
I once asked a rabbi (regarding Moshiach ben Yosef) why in the hell does Jesus appear to fall in right there even if I don’t want him to?
And he said, “someone can fit that role while not being Moshiach ben Yosef.”
ok, so that’s golden. He isn’t the guy, but I will be dammned if I blame anyone for thinking he is.
You see Jews for Jesus do this all the time with Nach. They will just go up to someone, read, and they assume.
You know I have criticism of Jesus, you have seen me write about criticisms I have of Jesus.
He’s arrogant, he’s impatient, he’s got a temper, he is ludicrously harsh with his own followers. I have criticisms of all the biblical figures.
Hi Con,
You don’t blame Christians for reading Jesus into Isaiah 53, and neither do I. But you seem to blame Jews for explaining why they reject the Christian reading. I would like to understand that.
Hi Dina,
Who is describing the servant of Isaiah 53? The Gentile kings? The Jewish leaders/community ? We need to be clear on who is describing the servant before we can hone in on the identity of the servant.
In my opinion , Isaiah 53 is an internal reflection of the Jewish leaders/community about the servant in their midst. They were gravely mistaken about a figure in their community and realized their error when this figure was eventually exalted. Seen in this light, Isaiah 53 does fit in the gospel narrative.
Hi Sharon,
Isaiah 53 is a continuation of Chapter 52. The last verse in Chapter 52 clearly identifies the narrator as many kings and nations.
A great deal has been written on this website that directly answers your questions about Isaiah 53. Furthermore, the links to the videos I posted delve into this topic in great depth and detail. Therefore, please forgive me for bowing out of this specific conversation, as I truly have nothing to add to those writings and lectures.
Hi Dina,
There are many articles and resources on Isaiah 53 in this blog and other places. I have read through and found that the general position of this blog-i.e interpreting Isaiah 53 in light of 52 as not very accurate and highlighted this accordingly.
Concerned Reader has pointed out that Gentiles in the Tanakh are generally not very introspective/reflect the depravity of their actions , save for certain individuals or a nation here and there. Rabbi Blumenthal listed some verses in Isaiah describing Gentile Kings/individuals acknowledging Israel , however it is certainly not at same depth described by the narrator about the Servant of 53.
As such , there is grounds to refute the Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53. In fact , I am not sure of the prevailing interpretation by Rashi is also unanimously shared by Sages of Antiquity-for example the gemara of Sanhedrin 98b.
I shall bow out here. Thank you.
But you seem to blame Jews for explaining why they reject the Christian reading. I would like to understand that.
I don’t blame Jews for explaining why they reject the Christian reading, I understand why.
I get frustrated and have a sarcastic sense of “freaking seriously?” because Judaism has its own internal concept developed during the rabbinic period that so closely resembles the Christian reading, it has its own messiah claimants who have been plugged in, and so its sad that we need arguments where bad faith is assumed by one party or another (at least in the rhetoric that we find in responses.)
Jim’s comments, rabbi singer’s comments etc. where its often treated as the craziest thing to put Jesus in the verses.
When looked at in a hollistic way, its perfectly obvious why he is seen as fulfilling these verses by that group of people, and I just explained why, even accounting for traditional interpretations.
I don’t even have to disagree with you that Israel’s righteous remnant can be seen as the servant, because no less than a pregnant Mary read it that way.
Luke 1
52
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54
He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”
Jesus’ mama’s opinion trumps that of Jesus’ students as it were. ; )
“he’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy.” LOL
When I read the bible, I see two communities who have their own experiences guiding how they read the book, and I can see plausible justification in many of these books for why each community reads the way they do.
Because its a book, and that’s how all books work.
Its not even just how Jews and Christians read these verses, but I see justification for how Samaritans and even Sadducees read certain verses.
The Bible is a book, and as such is open to several different ways of being read. And, even accounting for the “target audience” you can still read it the way the Christians read it.
Con, that is so unfair. For two thousand years, and up to the present day, it’s the Christians who have assumed bad faith on our part. Their kindest view of the way we understand our own scripture is that we have a veil over eyes when we read it. Add that to the insulting, unsolicited attempts to convert us despite millennia of failure, and can you really fault some Jews for getting a little angry and defensive?
I agree that we shouldn’t assume bad faith, that we should be respectful despite that–for the record I don’t like Rabbi Singer’s sarcastic and contemptuous approach. That doesn’t make our arguments wrong. I would also like to encourage you to model the behavior you would like to see. I miss the kindness and sensitivity you used to show in your comments.
I implore you to consider how disrespectful it feels to us to be told how to understand our own scripture, especially in the context of a terrible history of forced conversion and persecution, along with the sense that Christians still don’t understand us and still won’t give us a fair hearing. In our long and harsh exile, all we have ever wanted was to be left alone. Please don’t judge us harshly. If you must judge anyone, please take your judgments to those who truly deserve them.
That said, I disagree that the Hebrew scripture is open to any sort of interpretation and that all are valid. Traditional Judaism has consistently rejected the messianic claimants that have been plugged into various passages. Moreover, the overarching theme of Tanach–radical monotheism–precludes the possibility of a Christian interpretation being correct. Although I understand why Christians understand Isaiah 53 the way they do, I disagree that I have to accept their interpretation as valid just because they use a type of exegesis that you think is similar to ours.
Rabbinical interpretation is used in a very specific way, and one way in which it can never, ever be used is to contradict the fundamental teachings of Tanach. In traditional Judaism, the plain meaning is always the primary one, with the rabbinical interpretation adding additional depth and insight.
Concerned Reader,
In answer to your comments here: https://judaismresources.net/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/#comment-168217 .
We must, of course, remain vigilant against selective citing of evidence. However, I believe your objection in this regard is answered by the article itself upon which all of these comments are predicated. As R’ Blumenthal notes there, the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is vindicated at the time when the arm of the Lord is revealed, an event that has not yet happened. I refer you to these paragraphs:
“The suffering servant of the Lord is despised until his ultimate exaltation. The entire thrust of the passage in Isaiah is that the despised servant of the Lord will shock the world when the arm of the Lord is openly revealed upon him.
At this point in time, the arm of the Lord is not openly revealed upon anyone. Both Jews and Christians look forward to a day when the arm of the Lord is openly revealed upon God’s true servant and all the ends of the earth will clearly know the truth.”
With this as the context of my comments, I think you will agree that I am not dealing selectively with Jesus. That Jesus was “disliked” by some people in his lifetime is not of particular importance, because Isaiah writes of a figure who is despised until a moment in time that has not yet come. Jesus is not such a figure.
Jim
Dina I haven’t offered any contemptuous comments, or judgmental comments, nor have I said every reading is equally valid.
I merely pointed out that in some cases it’s really easy to see where these other communities get their reading from and why they think it works.
Especially when your community has had movements that have read it the same way.
I apologize if me being sarcastic offended you, I did not mean it to. You yourself said if you did not have the background in Jewish Christian polemic, and somebody read you Isaiah 53, you would have said “wait what?”
That illustrates my point that in spite of what any Orthodoxy orthopraxy says, the book can be read many ways and understood many ways, even when you don’t want it to be.
I do have that extra background also, and I still see where they’re getting it. I have presupposed that the Christian position is wrong in the reading of the chapters and verse, and then along come other non-Christian Jewish nessianic communities that have read it that way that weren’t Jesus oriented.
Isaiah 52:13 to 53 for the traditional reading is the Kings and Nations finally being contemplative at the revelation of the arm of the Lord ( which scripture never shows them doing en masse as I’ve already pointed out)
it shows the effect this has on them as having a change of heart towards God and scripture, pondering that meaning and throwing away their idols of their own volition.
Someone from a Christian culture reads that, takes note that it is the Gentiles having a change of heart and asks ” when did my ancestors ever have a fundamental shift in their understanding of the Divine?” When thousands of years ago did we ever care what the Bible said?
aha the Jesus movement, that happened in our history. They don’t even have to be Christians to see a funky interesting parallel there. That was my point.
And it just so happens that the figure they are talking about and applying this verse to was brutally crucified by gentiles after claiming to be a Messianic figure which really pissed off the Romans because they saw anybody claiming such as a political threat to their power.
I’m not saying that you guys don’t have Justified anger that is needing to be expressed.
I expressed how it’s easy to see your interpretation as being valid. Even The New Testament internally via Mary Mother of Jesus Takes your interpretation as being valid.
That’s actually a major rhetorical win for Judaism. If a Christian ever asks “oh yeah, where does it say Israel collectively is the servant?” You can just look at them dead pan in the face and say ” in your book Goofy.”
If we say the arm of the Lord has to be nakedly revealed to the point of causing shock, that would have to be a Sinai like experience, I get that.
It couldn’t be through a war, because the nations never experienced shock after a war with Israel that ever made them change their minds, they get bitter and seek revenge.
That also makes sense why the Christians focus so much on their claim that Jesus rose from the dead, and then at Pentecost the Gentiles suddenly start giving a crap aout what the Bible says.
I understand completely from your perspective why it’s a very forced reading that doesn’t work for you, my only point is it’s insanely easy to see where they’re getting it from, and the fact that it’s easy shows just how easy it is to read the book in a different way. That’s why I pointed out, it’s a book like any other book. We don’t have to want that, or like it, to see that that’s true.
Every author, every director of a film has an intention and an internal monologue when they’re writing, or doing the creative process.
Once it’s in the hands of an audience, what the author’s internal monologue was, though true to the author’s intent, may never even cross his audience’s mind. That’s how the human endeavor of and interaction with creativity works.
Different communities finding a footing in the literature fundamentally shows the book to be just like every other book on the planet where a person reads it and another person reads it and they both come to two completely different conclusions, and maybe that conclusion is completely other than authorial intent. It’s what naturally happens when humans read books, even sacred ones. You don’t get thousands of sects by malice or accident.
George Lucas has a saying: “a work is never finished, it’s only abandoned.”
An author can pour his soul into a thing explaining his truest intention in the clearest matter possible, and an audience may yet completely naturally take his work and use it or apply it in a way he did not intend.
That is a truth of the human reaction to and interaction with every piece of human creativity we know of.
Statement of faith and beliefs notwithstanding, the Christian statement of faith notwithstanding, the Samaritan statement of faith notwithstanding, that there is “one true way” to read the book, the rubber hitting the road and the gritty reality is that you can read this book in different ways. I don’t mean that to sound harsh or offensive, I’m just pointing it out.
I know you don’t “believe” the book can faithfully be read anyway other than the way the sages interpreted it, makes sense that you believe that. You’re Jewish. That’s the belief.
Dina, even the Tanakh itself illustrates this phenomenon that its “just like any other book” even if its not in terms of the source.
Hashem by miracle made that beautiful first set of tablets and Moses decides to take this one of a kind phenomenon without regard to the source’s intent and just yeet it at the people below.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/yeet-meaning-and-history
“Yeet is a slang word that functions broadly with the meaning “to throw,” but is especially used to emphasize forcefulness and a lack of concern for the thing being thrown. (You don’t yeet something if you’re worried that it might break.”
Was that the authorial intention and humans respecting that the author was a supreme ultimate expression of being and truth? No. If anything Moses was God’s 1st literary critic and then served as his editor, when he carved the second set with the purest intention.
And this was the 1st Moshiach who spoke face to face with the creator of the universe.
I’m not saying “its just a book” to deride it, but pointing it out as the method of conveying information, and noticing with evidence that this method of conveying information ALWAYS comes with inherent limitations subject to the flaws of human beings.
CR
You seem to zero on billions of people, and bring up, back in the day if one read the verse he could easily read JC into it. Since I 53 is a prophetic verse, and there are billions of people, wouldn’t it make sense that now we can point to that reading and say, see it couldn’t be JC?
“Back in the day if one read the verse he could easily read JC into it.”
I’m saying gentile cultures that were impacted fundamentally by the Jesus movement, who know as their own history the impact it has had on their own culture would have little difficulty reading these verses (where the gentile kings see the arm of the lord revealed, and have a change of heart of their own volition,) as naturally enabling one to plug Jesus in, because in their lived experience, Jesus and his movement were the catalyst for actually changing their cultures.
The catalyst that changed and annihilated centuries of old world understandings that the nations had about gods, their relation to the divine, and what the concept even meant.
They could read 52-53 and go, “holy crap, what happens to these gentile kings in these chapters, it ACTUALLY happened to our ancestors, to us.”
My point also being, Isaiah prophesied to a Jewish world surrounded on all sides by thousands of different idolatrous cultures, who had no reason to abandon centuries of their own traditions, just as Jews today would have no reason to abandon theirs. This was the truth of the situation to such a degree that even the authors of the Bible internally acknowledged to paraphrase “a Pagan will always be a pagan, and will do what they do, so we have verses that say nobody’s perfect, just let them be crazy.”
If those gentiles thousands of years ago heard Isaiah preach “one day you crazy non Jews are going to believe in my God, my book, and you will throw your idols and traditions away on your own due to a change of heart,” the nations back then would have no lived reason to see that prophecy as even remotely plausible, possible, or relevant to them.
The Jesus movement comes along and in 300 years rules over one of the largest empires the world has seen with an official monotheistic religion based on the ethical precepts of the Nach, and its emergence takes with it a lion’s share of those old polytheistic traditions. These same nations start giving a crap about what the Bible says.
“wouldn’t it make sense that now we can point to that reading and say, see it couldn’t be JC?”
Asking these people today who were foundational impacted by that movement, just on a historical level, to see it as not significant, and as definitely not a “fingerprint of God working in the world” is sort of a hard sell for them.
For a person who has never lived through an earthquake, a very tiny one can seem as though its a huge event, and to them it may well actually be.
Whereas a guy who lives through them regularly is like “I didn’t feel anything, that was no quake.”
“There was no quake” is what a Christian is being told to accept, when every frame of reference he has, tells him it was.
For a Jew its so easy to see how Jesus just doesn’t fit. His existence and movement did not have an earth shattering cultural impact for Jews. In fact, his movement brought Jews great pain, suffering, death, and unwarranted persecution.
Its two completely different and mutually exclusive vantage points on this guy and his movement equally based in people’s lived experiences. The point being its not something easy to school a person out of with interpretations.
The point is, yes indeed Jews CAN say that Jesus has no meaning or impact. For Jews that is 100% in line with their lived reality.
But that’s not the gentile world’s experience, and these are two chapters in scripture where a claim is being made about the nations, how they will feel, what they will do, how they will be impacted, what will happen to them when they come to know God. They can see themselves in these verses, and think their was an earthquake.
CR
After the first read of what you wrote I cannot see where we have any disagreement. Most people I know wouldn’t disagree with you I don’t think.
Maybe I’m the rare case but it was this type of writing ( the article posted by the Rabbi ) that helped me when sinking my teeth into scripture in the search of truth. All my previous teachings and beliefs, what the church taught in all my catechisms classes meant nothing when what seemed like a nuclear blast leveled my life and almost nothing was left. Now I’m sure there are many degrees of “looking for the truth” out there and in my humble opinion these articles have great value. It may not reach many, but I am so thankful for the help and the change it made in my life.
Con, I don’t think what you’re saying is particularly controversial. Obviously, based on their culture, history, and “lived” experience (a term that is redundant, because of course experience is lived, hence the scare quotes), Christians will interpret Isaiah 53 in a Christological way. I guess I’m struggling to understand your insistence in pointing out something that is so obvious. The whole raison d’être of this blog is to push back against missionary claims presented to Jews, and the only reason this blog exists in the first place is that missionaries are rather aggressive in attempting to convert Jews. In other words, they started it first. So it’s kind of irrelevant that rank-and-file Christians have a particular viewpoint–I say that’s fine for them as long as they leave us alone. Wouldn’t it be great if we could all just live and let live?
But we live in the real world, so when pushed, we will use our intellectual firepower to fight back, as of course we should. To end on a positive note, I have nothing but gratitude for our ability to do so. For most of Christian history, we were not free to answer. What a blessing that we can present our case, without fear for our lives or other dire consequences.
Dina, I absolitely agree that it is a blessing that you can push back against the Christian understanding. I also take Larry’s point that all of Christianity’s pontificating and theoligizing can ring hollow when met with a person’s teaumatic experiences.
I didn’t mean my comments to seem redundant as in “duh the Christian’s experience makes them believe in Jesus” but I meant when that experience is read alongside Isaiah 52 and 53 because those texts are somewhat uniquely speaking to gentiles in a somewhat biblically unprecedented way, it’s easier for them to read that experience in and to genuinely feel like it fits or is talking about them specifically.
I remember when I was a young Christian and it always drove me nuts not in a malicious way, but just in a brain teaser puzzle sort of way “why don’t you believe in Jesus?”
Paul’s idiotic answer that says “well they’re blind” always struck me as very self-serving and pompous, a very self-centered man’s response.
Contrast that with the general character of Jesus himself which never suggested to me that he opposed anything about being Jewish or observing Jewish traditions and laws. So it was always fascinating to me the question of why.
Today in light of all I have learned I kind of wonder on the opposite end how in the heck it was that the Christian movement got going at all You know what I mean?
Like, I think about Judaism in the second temple period Where you have the Pharisees with their traditions ( some of them which Jesus shares despite playing fast and loose) and then you have a whole sect that denies the central premise of the Christian religion right out the gate, and has the texts to back it up. I e Resurrection is more like a metaphor in the Hebrew Bible unless you read it in with creative interpretation.
The denial of resurrection of the Dead as part of the sadducean interpretation is just like Kryptonite to any Christian ideas. Takes like 2 seconds to say ” well, that’s it for that I guess.”
I look at how unpopular the Sadducees were, and yet noticed that they still had Authority just because they represented the priesthood.
IE their Authority was so biblically ingrained, that despite the fact that the Pharisees were way more popular, the Sadducees still had a seat on the Sanhedrin.
Even if they were hated, and believed to be Roman co-conspirators or something, the Sadducees could still say ” hey, we are still part of the priesthood, and the priesthood has authority to interpret and Carry Out scripture in an unambiguous way.”
To me, that is a brick wall that should have shattered Christianity right out at the gate, and yet it didn’t. Christianity never should have gotten past that first generation.
I have seen rabbi’s rip Christianity a new one, and then I leave myself wondering how in the hell is it here in the first place?
When the arguments are that cut and dry, Christianity does not have a lot of go to it.
But even when I recognize how weak it’s foundations are, I still can’t just ignore its impact you know? If you just think about it for a second, not even from a religious point of view. Just from historical point of view
It’s absolutely unfathomably insane that this religion, this hebrew biblical text, makes this claim that hundreds and thousands of Nations with all their different cultures and religions will of their own will and volition abandon it to believe in Scripture.
It’s an audacious claim, and it’s a claim that you could see any culture making about their religion. ” one day everybody will believe like me” is the common refrain of many religions.
But to actually have something like that happen on a scale as big as the modern world has seen it is not small potatoes. I understand completely why Jews see Jesus as absolutely irrelevant, but on the other side I’m like ” if he’s so easy to disprove, so easy to prove to be ordinary, so easy to flush as it were down the toilet of History, what the heck was that?”
Even a hardcore skeptic has to look at that history and go “dang that prediction was on point as unlikely as it was, because here we all are a bunch of non-jews reading a book that has absolutely nothing to do with any of our ancestral cultures, old gods, Etc. Most of the old languages don’t even survive anymore.
I noticed when I was studying comparative religion and studying new religious movements. If you’re a self-styled pagan today trying to reconstruct some old world pre-christian belief, you literally have to siphon through Christian sources first to do it, and when you do it you don’t even know what’s authentically ancient polytheism, and what has been repackaged into some sort of Christian allegory.
I’m not at all trying to denigrate the Jewish no to Jesus. It’s just even understanding that no, I see where these other people get there sense of identity from, and I see why they don’t just throw it away, even though quite honestly I don’t think it would be bad if they did.
Hi Con, there is so much to unpack here. I’m not sure I can address everything in one post, but I’ll tackle several points. If there is anything specific you want me to discuss, please let me know.
Throughout history, we have witnessed events whose impact on the world has been impressive. The more an event is replicated, the less impressive it becomes–though it might still be quite so. Certainly, once an event has been replicated even once, it loses its uniqueness.
It cannot be denied that Christianity’s impact on the world is impressive, for good and ill. How such a thing happened is, however, not that surprising.
Let’s start with how such a movement even got off the ground. It was, in fact, not at all surprising.
During the Temple era, various sects proliferated. This speaks to a general tolerance among the rabbis and the populace. Even the Sadducees, who, as you point out, were hated, were nevertheless tolerated and even allowed authority. Messianic claimants arose by the dozens. One could declare himself a messiah without repercussions and even avoid being shunned, a fact that has remained true throughout Jewish history (and to the present day, with the Chabad movement). That’s one reason among many that Jesus’s treatment by his fellow Jews as recorded in the gospels rings false. The original Jewish sect of Christianity is therefore a normal phenomenon when viewed through the panoply of weird sects and aberrant beliefs that coexisted side by side for centuries.
Christianity, however, differed from all the other sects in one important way: When it could not find purchase within the Jewish community, its followers sought out gentile converts. The other sects eventually disappeared, with the exception of the Pharisees, who remained the only group to meaningfully survive the Second Temple period as a Jewish sect (recall that Christianity also disappeared as a Jewish sect).
The indefatigable travels of Paul can take some of the credit for the spread of Christianity, but it still remained fairly small and subject to persecution until Constantine, the Roman emperor, converted in the fourth century and legalized Christianity in his Edict of Milan. Later, Theodosius followed with the Edict of Thessalonica, prohibiting the practice of other religions, including sects of Christianity that did not follow the Nicene Creed. Naturally, such an edict was backed by the sword.
The spread of Christianity was not a stupendously rapid, miraculous, overnight miracle; rather, it was a slow, centuries-long process that involved a great deal of persecution and bloodshed to establish its dominance and authority.
A similar process was replicated in the east, in which Islam spread over vast territories through military conquest.
Thus, one could argue that the impact of Moses was greater than that of Jesus, since his teachings spawned three major world religions. One could argue that Mohammed is at least as impressive as Jesus in his influence on the world. The number of adherents to Hinduism is also nothing to sneeze at: It may not have spread throughout the world, but over a billion people practice the religion. That’s massive. (Hinduism holds the distinction of oldest mass religion in the world.) Same goes for Buddhism with about half a billion followers.
So the impact of Jesus is not that mind blowing. Impressive, yes. But think also about the massive non-religious impacts of other people. The inventions of the last 100 years have affected a lot more people than any religion ever has (cars, airplanes, modern plumbing, modern medicine, a whole host of technologies). Each invention by itself, such as cars, has had a massive impact–of a different nature, I concede, but on a great many more people. So while the influence of Jesus might be impressive, it’s hardly unique.
If you’re looking for a mindblowing, “how in heck did this happen” phenomenon, look no further than the reaction of the Jewish people to Christianity.
As Christianity spread throughout Europe, other pagan cultures assimilated into the new religion, often piggybacking their pagan practices onto Christianity. The Norse religion–gone; the Druids–gone; the Picts–gone. The only group to successfully resist Christianity was the Jewish people. Weakened, broken, scattered, and left with no central authority, they survived every attempt to impose upon them the fate that other cultures suffered.
If you look at a timeline of specifically Jewish persecutions, each one on its own should have been enough to put an end to us. For example, over eighty expulsions in about 1,600 years works out to one expulsion every 20 years. That alone should have done us in. Hundreds of blood libels and their attendant tortures, public executions, and/or massacres should have been enough to do us in. The wiping out of entire Jewish communities during the Black Death (combined with the death toll of the plague itself) should have done us in. Mass forced conversions should have been enough. Forced poverty through ghettoization and the banning of Jews from crafts and guilds should have been enough. The Inquisition on its own should have been enough. The Crusades on their should have been enough. The culminating event of the Holocaust–90% of Polish Jewry, gone; 75% of Hungarian Jewry, gone; 70% of all European Jews, gone–that really should have been the end of us. But after the liberation, the dazed, weakened, scattered survivors dusted themselves off, rolled up their sleeves, and quietly began the work of rebuilding our nation.
There is not a single group of people on this planet who have endured so many centuries of so many attempts to force them into extinction via methods both brutal and benign and survived to tell the tale.
But you know what is even more staggering? Thousands of years before any of this happened, Moses made a bizarre prediction. He told the Children of Israel, on the cusp of their journey into the Land of Canaan, that they would enter this land and conquer it–but they wouldn’t be able to keep it. They would sin and therefore be exiled and scattered all over the world. But they would survive to return to their land. Why on earth would any leader make such a prediction?
And what is more staggering even than that is that history bore this out. This wasn’t a vague prophecy that needed events to first happen in order to interpret it this way. It’s clearly worded, and its hope is what Jews clung to and prayed for during our long and dark exile. It was a wacky prophecy, yet it came true.
You keep asking, how in heck did this happen? But you’re asking it about the wrong event 🙂
Hi Concerned Reader,
I think the only reason why Christianity survived and thrive is because of its marketing strategy. Unlike other ancient sects of Judaism , the early Jewish believers ended up spreading its message to the Gentile world , despite being initially reluctant to do so.
I live in East Asia where ancient and modern religions both co-exist in modern society. My ancestors were Hindus , Buddhists , animists and so on. The religious texts of these religions and ancient languages still exist and is not tampered by the modern religions of today. I can learn up religious beliefs of my ancestors and perhaps change my Jewish legal name to a name closely reflecting my own ethnicity. However is it right for any Gentile who is God fearing to descend from Christianity to being involved in ancient paganism or polytheism ? I won’t.
“I think the only reason why Christianity survived and thrive is because of its marketing strategy.”
That’s just it though Sharon, its marketing really is not great, especially if its not something you are raised with. And the Christians faced a great deal of push back from the polytheistic world initially. Our books are full of information about that.
The figure of Jesus though transcends Christianity in that he impacted Islam’s development too.
When I say Jesus as a historical figure had some impact, I don’t just mean in one movement.
Its really cool that you live where you do. One of the few regions where Christianity did not have the reach, or immediate terrestrial authority to just annihilate the competition.
And I am glad for it, because there are plenty of monotheists who are just downright mean, and have a sense of superiority, and only think about the world their own way.
I’m glad these other cultures continue to exist, make great contributions, and give people meaning. What is life without variety?
I remember when I read a Zoroastrian polemic against Christianity that survived, and I was surprised.
I remember meeting a very kind lady while camping once who just so happened to be Zoroastrian, and she was amazed I had even heard of her faith and had read some of its precepts.
It also seems (correct me if I am wrong) that some of Christianity’s theological claims would not have the same bite in a Hindu or animistic setting. The average Hindu is embodied divinity (since Atman is Brahman) walking around, and though there are many paths, it leads to one truth.
There isn’t this culture shattering difference when Jesus’ claims come up. Its like “ah, another would be holy man” For Europe and the Americas, because of its proximity it shattered whole identities.
I actually saw a dialogue once I believe it was in India, with the prompt about “who is God’s truest incarnation” the options were Krishna, Buddha, or Jesus. What struck me though was how amicable everybody in the dialogue was about how “well, there is some compatibility, some difference, but we get along mostly,” not to claim there is no sectarian violence in those other belief systems because oh boy there is.
I remember watching a talk with the Dalai Lama online. He was talking with western philosophers and scientists. The western philosophers were obsessed with, and in some ways couldn’t really get past the notion of a framework existing without a 1st cause, or 1st principles and premises.
The Dalai Lama looks these guys in the eye, simply smiles and says, “you mean causation? why on earth do you anthropomorphize it like that?”
All their mouths popped open when the western philosophers realized that their own cultural framework was impacting how they were approaching this discussion.
Hi Concerned Reader,
Christianity is the only Jewish Sect which actively reached out to the Gentile communities within Israel and its surrounding regions in the 1st century . Gentiles who adopt this belief system are not required to take on the Mosaic law. So yes, I see that as a brilliant marketing strategy. I do agree with you that there was an initial pushback by these communities , however the earliest Jewish believers managed to pass on the Gospel message to these communities. The Gentile church grew on from there and the rest is history.
In addition , I would say that Christianity is highly adaptable to the cultures of the nations that comes into contact with it. Perhaps you may not see this clearly in your local community , where western culture is synonymous with Christianity. However I can see the interaction between Asian culture and Christianity in the local church and its a harmonious one . A Gentile who converts to Christianity is still able to practice his/her culture minus its idolatrous elements. The local church also participates in celebrating the festivals of these cultures .
I am blessed to live in a region where ancient cultures and modern religions co-exist peacefully together . I do agree with you that those who still engage in the religious beliefs of their ancestors, Hinduism i.e non monotheists are generally more tolerant and accept other belief systems as valid alongside their own. This is unlike monotheists like me who have a more rigid mindset. I do come across teachings of Hindu spiritual gurus and honestly , it is like a breath of fresh air-there is no rigidity or I that am forced to choose one view over another-anything goes. However even then , I believe that those who subscribe to these beliefs do believe that there is only one God and we are all accountable to Him.
Which is why , I believe a Gentile coming from these cultures who converts to Christianity and then realize its fallacy will not go back to the beliefs of his/her ancestors . If you have the taste of truth, will you go back to falsehood?
The prophecies in the tanakh were written at a time where Israel were surrounded by hostile pagan nations. Today , Israel and the Jewish people are surrounded by hostile , monotheistic nations who subscribe to the 7 laws. As such , are the prophecies in the tanakh only valid for the period in which these prophecies were written? Are these prophecies still relevant today?
https://old.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/x89jgu/were_there_communities_of_gentiles_that/
Just as pagans could be found visiting with Israel’s god in his temple’s precincts, they also could be found, variously affiliated, in the synagogues of western diaspora cities. There they could listen to biblical traditions sung out in their own vernacular, Greek, becoming acquainted with a powerful god without having to journey to Jerusalem. Synagogue inscriptions gratefully acknowledged the donations of generous pagan benefactors. A priestess of the imperial cult funded the construction of a synagogue building. Alexandrian pagans joined with Jews to feast together annually in celebration of the scriptures’ translation into Greek. Gentile town councilors involved themselves in synagogue activities and projects. One pagan city even minted coins bearing an image of Noah’s ark.
Sometimes an interested outsider might choose to come over entirely to a Jewish way of life, making an exclusive commitment to Israel’s god and for men, momentously, receiving circumcision. Such behavior occasioned sharp comment and vivid resentment from pagan critics, who viewed it as a form of cultural and religious treason. It was also potentially dangerous. Gods presided over the ancient city. Deserting local gods for an exclusive allegiance to a distant foreign god destabilized relations between heaven and earth. Lack of respect made gods angry, and angry gods acted out. Plague, earthquake, famine, flood; disrupted seasons or invading armies: all these figured in the repertoire of divine anger. Why tempt heaven with flagrant disloyalty?
Much more common, however, was the “both/and” model of association, showing respect to Israel’s god and adopting some Jewish practices—Sabbath observance gets frequent mention—while also continuing with the worship of native gods. The centurion Cornelius in Acts 10, for instance, represents such a person: he prays to the Jewish god while, as an army officer, he would also and necessarily be involved with Roman gods as well. Diaspora Jewish communities evidently had no problem with such arrangements, and they obviously benefited from good relations with their immediate pagan neighbors. And, as long as such “Judaizing” or “god-fearing” (two ancient terms for this sort of sympathetic “outsider” behavior) did not lead to conversion, most pagans had no problem with it either.
Jesus had had no “gentile policy.” Given his preaching ambit—for the most part small Jewish villages, whether in the Galilee or in Judea—he would not have routinely encountered many. The great exception to this observation is, of course, Jerusalem, which attracted numerous pagan visitors, especially during the grand holidays. When there, Jesus taught in the temple’s outermost court, where pagans, too, could have heard him. The low pagan profile in traditions about Jesus’ mission, however, could very well reflect his own principled decision. At the End of Days, according to prophetic paradigm, Israel’s redemption anticipates the universal turning of pagans to Israel’s god. Jesus, following in the footsteps of his great mentor, John, was called to prepare Israel. God would take care of the nations himself.
sharon wrote:
So yes, I see that as a brilliant marketing strategy.
if what paula fredriksen wrote is correct, the marketing strategy wouldn’t be required. there were too many advantages xtianity had because of jewish-gentile relations.
Hi jamesmay2022,
1. I agree with Paula that Jesus had a “no gentile policy” during his ministry. However the gospel does record Jesus instructing his disciple “to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)
2.There were accounts of the Jews in the diaspora inciting local communities to go against Paul and his companions as they were preaching the Gospel (Acts 13:44,13:50 ,14:5,14:19,17:5-9, 18:12-17) . It seems that the Jewish-Gentile relations at that time was a disadvantage to the spread of Christianity.
“1. I agree with Paula that Jesus had a “no gentile policy” during his ministry. However the gospel does record Jesus instructing his disciple “to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)”
jesus changed his mind ? paula never said, “during his ministry.”
what is strange is that in acts nobody recalls jesus saying what is said in matthew 28: 19
“2.There were accounts of the Jews in the diaspora inciting local communities to go against Paul and his companions ”
acts sounds like a very pro gentile text. who were these local communities? how about the communities which welcomed paul or the gentile christian communities who went against paul?
“as they were preaching the Gospel (Acts 13:44,13:50 ,14:5,14:19,17:5-9, 18:12-17) . It seems that the Jewish-Gentile relations at that time was a disadvantage to the spread of Christianity.”
how ?
“It seems that the Jewish-Gentile relations at that time was a disadvantage to the spread of Christianity.”
1. gentiles did not keep the laws of the torah
2. gentiles were familiar with love thy neighbour, love thy god….
where is the disadvantage?
all the xtian had to do was appeal to what they were already familiar with.
@jamesmay2022
I love Paula frederickson’s books
It’s very likely that Paul got a lot of his early converts from among the God fearers, but as was mentioned fearing God had to be combined with a Pagan’s regular Civic Duty which often included by defaulr some participation in Pagan cult. IE a both and approach
After all, how can one run an Empire if your citizenry stops paying its taxes, IE tribute to the Gods?
As was said, the Wrath the gods may bring down if they are not worshiped properly.
As I said above, people do not have reason to completely abandon their old ways and cultures and Judaism internally recognized that, in text and in practice.
You could be a god fearer and dabble in both. Why be a Christian which demands exclusivity?
Some professors like Bart Ehrman note that the proto-orthodox were just one group of Christians, and that there is evidence of Christian syncretism,
IE of course as found in Gnostic varieties. But again, these face push back from the church and from pagans who believe that their religious philosophy is being misused by these people.
Christianity would not have had any benefit for anyone prior to being recognized by the state, and even when recognized by the state, would ebb and flow in popularity with the emperor’s opinions, such as Christianity under Julian the apostate.
Christianity, very early on lost the protections due to Judaism afforded by the Romans in terms of its status as an ancient religion. That protection did not extend to the church.
One of the reasons that I’m of the opinion that Christianity should not have taken off is precisely because it did not ever advocate the both and approach to the service of deities as God fearing Gentile patrons of diaspora synagogues did.
It upset the sensibilities of both pagans and Jews, and as I said in my comments, the fact that you also had a sect of Sadducees within second temple Judaism who denied Christianity’s Central premise, IE denying Resurrection, with plain text to back it up, it makes it harder to believe that this belief system would take off.
When Protestants started saying really crazy things that disagreed with the predominant belief structure, the Catholic church was right there to shut it down, if not with Force physically, then with polemic.
Even though many of the Sadducees died off between the temple’s destruction in 70 and the war in 135 CE, their interpretations as a tool of debate against Christianity surely would have remained because they were textual and would have proven useful to help stamp it out. However we get crickets and growth of the new religion.
Church manuals of discipline stress greatly the exclusive worship of God, and further, the way Jesus is described by early Christians is like smacking Caesar’s claims right in the face with a brick.
It’s one of the reasons Christianity was called a pernicious Jewish superstition. It made it hard to convince citizens to do their civic duty if they were to be involved exclusively in Christian worship.
Everything I wrote above about being surprised that Christianity survived and flourished is because I know about the God fearers, that they had some syncretism. There was a world of benefit to be had in not being a Christian.
before i continue, what do you mean by christianity?
do you mean the christianity which preached that god was executed for sins , came back to life, and is soon to return ?
Hi Concerned Reader,
After going through your comments , I realize my statement that Christianity survived and thrived due to “marketing strategy” is not accurate.
Both Jewish and Gentile believers of Jesus of the 1st century face persecution , either by the synagogue or by the ruling authorities. There is no incentive to subscribe to a belief system when doing so may cause one his/her life. This persecution occurs throughout history including today. Certain Christian communities in Asia are still facing persecution by their communities or even by the government.
Despite these challenges, it is remarkable how Christianity survived within these communities -then and now .
“One of the reasons that I’m of the opinion that Christianity should not have taken off is precisely because it did not ever advocate the both and approach to the service of deities as God fearing Gentile patrons of diaspora synagogues did.”
what about the stuff that it did advocate and was at its advantage?
“It upset the sensibilities of both pagans and Jews, and as I said in my comments, the fact that you also had a sect of Sadducees within second temple Judaism who denied Christianity’s Central premise, IE denying Resurrection,”
what are you talking about ? how about the sects that did not deny resurrection ? even the pagans were not monolith when it came to the after life.
“with plain text to back it up, it makes it harder to believe that this belief system would take off.”
no it doesn’t
“It’s very likely that Paul got a lot of his early converts from among the God fearers, but as was mentioned fearing God had to be combined with a Pagan’s regular Civic Duty which often included by defaulr some participation in Pagan cult. IE a both and approach”
there could be others ways, like telling your followers that meat sacrificed to idols is kosher to eat. reminds me of paul.
I’m talking the religious movements of Christianity and the impact its had in changing the multitude of cultures and identities in the western world in a fundamental way.
I’m not talking about christology, I’m not talking about unique Christian miracle claims, or Christian texts, nor am I talking about “God in human form resurrecting.”
Those are all uniquely Christian claims, and if someone believes them, they are a Christian by default and would not even be looking at a blog like this one.
Isaiah 52-53 as it has been interpreted here on the blog and by the rabbis posits that in Isaiah 52 the kings of the nations (and their kingdoms presumably) are narrating about their surprise, they will see the arm of the lord revealed, will be contrite and introspective, and that something will shock them out of their longstanding idolatrous religious identities leading them to truth and the knowledge of god.
I am saying that for a gentile who is living in a western culture, and experiencing their history, and reading these chapters, the Jesus movement naturally falls in place, and the history is seen as the ignition switch which has fulfilled these chapters in their experience.
Above, Jim wrote that Jesus cannot be seen as the servant because “he is beloved by billions.” I said, “sure, he is beloved now, but was not initially.” Disregarding Jesus as a possibility of being the servant because he is popular, would be like disregarding the righteous remnant of Israel as the servant because they have made so many contributions to society for which they are recognized.
Jesus falls in (in peoples experience) where he shouldn’t. His movement grew and influenced empires when it shouldn’t have. There are more than enough reasons why Christianity as a religious movement never should have got off the ground, or had any impact at all.
That said, when you read these verses in these chapters, even with the way rabbinic tradition reads it, you can see why the Christian believes Jesus fits the verses in light of the fact that they as gentiles saw a fundamental shift in their understanding via his movement.
What happens to the gentile kings in Isaiah 52-53 (where they are contrite, shocked, and changed their identity in response) is what billions of non Jews today think their experience has been.
sharon wrote:
1. I agree with Paula that Jesus had a “no gentile policy” during his ministry. However the gospel does record Jesus instructing his disciple “to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)
.
but you forgot something,
“and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.”
now whats that going to be? 10 commandments? wouldn’t that be something to christianities advantage since jesus’ teachings go easy on gentiles, right?
or does jesus want to really get gentiles to become jewish:
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you….”
who is matthew intending to target by having his jesus say those words?
Hi jamesmay2022,
1.You missed out the following quote from Matthew 23:2-3 – But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach”
2. Jesus also stated the following a little further in verse 8 -10-“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.
3. Based on Matthew 23:8-10 and 28:20, Jesus wants his Jewish and Gentile believers to follow HIS commands:
a. To follow Jesus, one must “take up his cross and follow him”
b. One must forsake one’s father and mother to follow Jesus , a violation of 1 out of the 10 commandments.
c. To follow Jesus, one must love his enemy, not to look at a woman lustfully, must not divorce etc , which goes beyond what is perscribed in the Torah. (Matthew 5)
QUOTE:
1.You missed out the following quote from Matthew 23:2-3 – But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach”
you are confusing me now. DID matthew want his gentile AUDIENCE to accept the torah and its LAWS or did matthew make it EASY for his gentile audience to select what they liked to the benefit of their gentile audience?
“b. One must forsake one’s father and mother to follow Jesus , a violation of 1 out of the 10 commandments.”
is that in the gospel of matthew?
notice that luke says one must hate mother, father, brother and sister, matthew says you must love x more than y. matthew has not gone to the extreme level of luke.
matthew wrote:
If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness. 19 Honor your father and mother. Also, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
did jesus change his mind ?
“c. To follow Jesus, one must love his enemy, not to look at a woman lustfully, must not divorce etc , which goes beyond what is perscribed in the Torah. (Matthew 5)”
matthew is written in a time when the xtian religion already has a number of followers in some unknown part of the world.
sorry. mark says no divorce is allowed. matthew created an exception, was it because matthew had to judaise mark?
“look at a woman lustfully”
did you know there is scholarly debate on this?
there is no agreement on what jesus meant.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/search?q=porneia&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all
did he mean looking at an umarried woman lustfully? debated
did he mean having passing thought of lust? debated
loving your enemy in time of persecution and praying for them is found in the hebrew bible, right?
my question is, how is any of this a stumbling block for the gentiles in the roman empire, especially those who were mixing with the jews ?
pagans persecuted pagans.
jews persecuted jews.
it was a world of persecution back then.
bart ehrman says :
Bart Ehrman in Triumph of Christianity says that if a male head of household converted to Christianity, the entire rest of the household, wives, children and slaves, would have to convert as well
…
so what are your thoughts on what ehrman says?
” they will see the arm of the lord revealed, will be contrite and introspective, and that something will shock them out of their longstanding idolatrous religious identities leading them to truth and the knowledge of god.
I am saying that for a gentile who is living in a western culture, and experiencing their history, and reading these chapters, the Jesus movement naturally falls in place, and the history is seen as the ignition switch which has fulfilled these chapters in their experience.”
so when a catholic xtian becomes a jew, how did the catholic ever see christianity as the religion which took them out of “longstanding idolatry”?
the jesus movement is a confusion. which religion in history was confused about god like xtianity is?
so when a catholic xtian becomes a jew, how did the catholic ever see christianity as the religion which took them out of “longstanding idolatry”?
the jesus movement is a confusion. which religion in history was confused about god like xtianity is?
Christianity was a step in the journey? It literally served as their introduction to the book, its people, set the cultural backdrop for why anything written in the Bible was relevant at all?
A Catholic can hear a Jew’s view on God and has a basis on which to agree. The Catholic accepts the Hebrew Bible. He believes Jesus fulfilled it, so a Jew has a starting point with a Catholic to say “no you are wrong. Jesus was a Jew. You should become Jewish.”
If a Jew tries to tell a Hindu or a druid to “consider Torah” they will have a very steep uphill battle because its a thoroughly different culture that has no reason to believe any biblical claims or premises about the divine.
A Christian who abandons Christianity and becomes a Jew, bless them, well done.
But if the former Christian turns around and says “Jesus Fuey! What a crappy guy, he did noting, his movement did nothing” this is a guy who curses the very yellow brick road that he happened initially to be on that took him to Oz with the bumps along the way in the 1st place.
His ancestors by contrast might have been on any thousands of other roads, or no roads at all. Christianity is in error? 100% its confused? You bet. But better to learn chess after playing a crappy game of checkers then to sit dumbfounded not knowing which way the board sits.
The way I have seen you talk about Jesus in these comments so far suggests to me that you are a critic of Paul of Tarsus, and you focus on Jesus’ Jewish roots, because per Jesus’ words in the Christian Bible he appears to be a Jew who just wanted people to be Jewish. Amen.
You are climbing the ladder of Jesus’ Jewishness to get back to Judaism. The fact that you have read Dr. Fredriksen, well done.
You can rightfully criticize Paul of Tarsus, (but just remember you can criticize him so well because Paul’s students (the Christian majority) who wrote the NT kept record of his mistakes, his arguments with other followers, and preserved it all, as he was the 1st author of any book referencing Jesus writing in the 50s CE.)
For the record, I have a history degree and a Comparative Religion degree, so I am familiar with a lot of the biblical scholarship. I have also interacted on this blog for a long time. There are even articles on here that I have written which rabbi B has posted.
The context of my participation in this thread has been.
1. Yes, the Christians are wrong in their interpretations of Isaiah
2. I do not blame them even 1 iota for thinking that Jesus fits, or believing that his movement is involved in what Isaiah describes in these chapters.
there you go making claims again.
“Christianity was a step in the journey? It literally served as their introduction to the book, its people, set the cultural backdrop for why anything written in the Bible was relevant at all?”
it didn’t . it literally served as a distortion. thats why there was a conversion in the first place. if marcion had superglued the old testament to his “new testament,” would you argue that marcions depiction of the old testament served as a step in the journey for apostates from marcions xtianity?
it didn’t . it literally served as a distortion.
Where are the druids? Where are the cults of Caesar? Why is the Pantheon empty of its old deities?
How would you even know who Marcion was without the Church telling you?
If you are a convert from Christianity to Judaism, that was a stepping stone. It was a busted bridge between cultures.
Hi Con,
You posted this comment to me here:
I responded to it here:
Just letting you know because I think you might have missed it.
“After going through your comments , I realize my statement that Christianity survived and thrived due to “marketing strategy” is not accurate.”
theen you need to read ehrmans book “triumph of xtianity”
“Both Jewish and Gentile believers of Jesus of the 1st century face persecution ”
pagans persecuted pagans as well.
“, either by the synagogue or by the ruling authorities.”
at what level? at an extreme level? at a light level?
what are the demographics?
” There is no incentive to subscribe to a belief system when doing so may cause one his/her life.”
can you show me evidence for this?
according to jesus, the end was soon to come and god would reward the persecuted.
one can subscribe to this belief system and behave like peter .
one can be a xtian and RUN away from persecution, EXACTLY what peter does in the gospel of mark.
mark never said that if you run away from persecution you are a sinner.
matthew never said that if you run away from persecution you are a sinner.
in order for you to talk about “incentive to subscribe” you need to tell me about the mind set of the people and the stories they grew up listening.
” Certain Christian communities in Asia are still facing persecution by their communities or even by the government.”
are we talking about the first two hundred years of xtianity?
“Despite these challenges, it is remarkable how Christianity survived within these communities -then and now .”
i don’t think it is remarkable at all.
let me tell you about the fathers who had money and power
quote:
When you read these authors, the clear impression given is that at least some of the factions they’re combatting were quite widespread, numerous, and influential. And if you think about it, why else would these writers be expending so much argumentative ammunition against them, if they weren’t? In Against Heresies, Irenaeus describes the heterodox as “multitudes”, “many persons”, who have propagated their belief systems “with wretched success”, so much so that
it is an impracticable attempt to mention all those who, in one way or another, have fallen away from the truth
Hippolytus/Pseudo-Hippolytus has a long digression in Refutations book IX about how two consecutive Roman bishops (popes!) fell in with a heterodox faction originated by one Noetus of Smyrna. By this account, this faction appears to have held majoritarian popular appeal and central authority at the time (“crowds of dupes stream together into [this] school”, even as they “call themselves a Catholic Church”).
Overall, we have very limited ability to judge the relative popularity or dominance of each early Christian faction in any given locale in this era. We can’t even say we know of the existence of all of them! But the clear impression from the early proto-orthodox writers is that they are positively surrounded by other Christians who hold differing doctrines and practices.
my point is:
xtianities success could have been BUILT of the xtians it MADE into heretics.
Hi jamesmay2022,
To be honest, I am confused with your comments. You started the conversation by questioning my statement that Christianity survived and thrived because of its marketing strategy. However, you are also questioning me for admitting that this is innacurate.
However it is very clear that you have certain view of Christianity and no amount of reasoning will cause you to budge from that view.As such , I do not want to waste your time and mine, so I shall bow out of this conversation.
Have a good day.
“When you read these authors, the clear impression given is that at least some of the factions they’re combating were quite widespread, numerous, and influential.”
“mark never said that if you run away from persecution you are a sinner.
matthew never said that if you run away from persecution you are a sinner.”
But listen to what you are saying. The implication of what you are saying is that its no big deal to believe in Jesus in a pagan world, and there isn’t an impetus for it to be its own identity.
why do we have entire manuals of discipline written pre council of Nicea about how to separate from the pagans, and to endure persecution then? If gospel authors believe its no big deal to do what Peter did, and not sin, Why is persecution a near fetish to Christians, especially if most of them are Gnostics and don’t believe he was crucified or actually suffered literally?
Yes, Gnostic Christianities were widespread and influential, but that’s at least partially because they also abandoned a ton of the things that made them as a variety of Christianity any different or unique from anyone else’s gnosis in the near east.
Hence why would they be something that even needs to eliminate polytheism or to exist as an identity on its own?
The Gnostic Jesus followers proved to be a great tool for the Pagans to say “why do you even need to be Christians? Jesus was just a philosopher, so why not be like everyone else?”
Porphyry a Pagan philosophical opponent of Christianity basically argued exactly this.
They also made it easier for gentiles because their theologies thoroughly broke with Tanakh entirely, not just with Torah observance.
A pagan system of Gnosis could convey the same messages as a Christian or even a Jewish system of Gnosis, IE because they all engaged in religious syncretism.
You see how much Ehrman compares Jesus to Apollonius of Tyana which pomphry also did?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana
(synopsis of the historical facts about Apollonius’ life)
“As James Francis put it, “the most that can be said … is that Apollonius appears to have been a wandering ascetic/philosopher/wonderworker of a type common to the eastern part of the early empire.”[17] What we can safely assume is that he was indeed a Pythagorean and as such, in conformity with the Pythagorean tradition, opposed animal sacrifice and lived on a frugal, strictly vegetarian diet.[18] A minimalist view is that he spent his entire life in the cities of his native Asia Minor (Turkey) and of northern Syria, in particular his home town of Tyana, Ephesus, Aegae and Antioch,[19] though the letters suggest wider travels, and there seems no reason to deny that, like many wandering philosophers, he at least visited Rome. As for his philosophical convictions, we have an interesting, probably authentic fragment of one of his writings (On sacrifices), in which he expresses his view that God, who is the most beautiful being, cannot be influenced by prayers or sacrifices and has no wish to be worshipped by humans, but can be reached by a spiritual procedure involving nous (intellect), because he himself is pure nous, and nous is the greatest faculty of humankind.[20]”
nuos or intellect. IE Gnosis,
Gnostics were opposed in the rabbinic tradition, in the proto orthodox Christian tradition, and in the pagan traditions, because to the Pagans, to the Jews, and to the Orthodox Christians, it was watering down their belief systems as allegory, its hierarchical and cultural structures as useless superstition, and its traditions into philosophy.
As you said “Pagans persecuted pagans.”
Your average Gnostic Jesus
-was not physically born (because he is a heavenly Aeon who represents the true God and opposes the Demiurge, the Demiurge being the strict legalistic biblical creator god and all his rituals.)
– Gnostic Jesus represents the “true unknowable god, the monad who doesn’t want prayers, or even service” the philosophical true gnosis, the true reality behind all the symbols of all of the different polytheistic and monotheistic cults.
-Jesus’ suffering and crucifixion are seen as a “cruci-fiction,” a ruse that did not actually happen but fooled the gullible Proto Orthodox Christians into believing that they saw him die.
(In Gnostic texts gnostics call ordinary Jesus followers “Jews” such as in the Gnostic gospel of Philip because they believe them to be gullible.)
-Gnostic Jesus ascends back to the monad.
– The knowledge and philosophy you get from Gnostic Jesus is what is the pathway to true knowledge, not religious services, and certainly not what your average orthodox Christian says.
Gnostic Jesus actually has some stuff in common with Orthodox Jesus between the lines except that
– The orthodox Jesus is physically born (either by two human parents IE Ebionite gospels) or via a virgin birth that is actually only mentioned in two of the canonical ones Mathew and Luke, but not in Paul.)
-Orthodox Jesus has family members brothers, sisters, cousins, etc. and a brother who runs a congregation in Jerusalem where the other purported apostles and disciples compete for his favor, as is evident from disputes found in Paul’s epistles.
– Jesus actually physically dies after having been beaten, scourged, and then is actually Crucified under Pontius Pilate and believed by followers to have resurrected as was a traditional belief among the sect to which Jesus most closely aligned, IE Pharisees.
– Jesus is an itinerant religious Jewish preacher catapulting himself off of the success of John the Baptist.
-Jesus teaches Torah observance to his Jewish followers. (this gets watered down by Paul of Tarsus in the 50s CE into just the “basics” of biblical morals plus baptism for gentile Jesus followers.) If we read manuals like the didache or the ethical treatises of Church fathers, though they are not advocating full Torah observance, they are strict and strictly define proper interactions with the pagan world.
– Justification comes by either obeying Jesus’ and his father’s commands (Jamesian and Peterine Christianities) or by faith alone that manifests itself in doing good actions for the sake of doing it. (Paul of Tarsus.) Not too mention that everything you know about the controversies in early Christianity comes from the earliest folks to write about them, and their students who preserved them, IE the Pauline school of thought.
Far from demonstrating your point, the Gnostics and their belief systems illustrate that Jesus should have faded into obscurity. For Christ sake gnostic positions were actually used as ammo by the Pagans to disarm the Christian belief system. They were also popular because they didn’t require a person to change that much.
Imagine we are Pagans in 3rd century Alexandria. A proto Orthodox Christian preacher says
-you are a sinner, repent of your sins, believe in the scriptures, believe in the God of the Jews, God the father and in our lord Jesus who died for your sins. Go forth make disciples and sin no more by keeping these biblical ethics.
A gnostic Christian preacher says Jesus taught that by true gnosis, not by rituals you can go to eternal bliss. Everything the Orthodox guy just said is BS. Ethics you should keep are the ethics that we all agree on as good philosophy, and Jesus died for nobody’s sins, because he never died and he was never born because he was a being of light!
He continues asking: What are sins anyways? Are the sins what the Tanakh defines as sins? The Tanakh was written by an unethical monster!
The birth, suffering, and death stories of Jesus are philosophical allegories that teach the deeper truths of philosophy and the soul, much like Pythagoras, Aristotle, and Apollonius of Tyana.
A standard Pythagorean listening in says “listen to the Gnostic Jesus advocate, but abandon the Jesus trappings, and the Jewish superstitions, pay your taxes, and just learn the philosophy at the academy.”
Wouldn’t this Gnostic route have been the more convenient and politically expedient route for a politically motivated empire to go if they wanted political hegemony and the existing status quo? You want a belief system that can bring disparate groups under one umbrella with ease, not tension.
Assuming that Gnostic Christianity was the majority, the very makeup of their religious expression is so adaptable as to lose anything identifiable as Christian. The word Christian itself is a Hellenization of a Hebraism for God sake. The word Messiah, or the epithet Messianic only has meaning as a Jewish term.
If the majority of Christians were truly gnostics, it doesn’t make sense that there would be a Christian identity at all.
Look at Islam’s picture of Jesus. Its basically very gnostic esque, just not fully. And they are always saying “Christians are morons, why are you doing X Y Z?
Hi jamesmay2022,
1. Matthew 23:2-3: I am not confusing you, I am highlighting what is clearly stated in the Gospel- Matthew wants his Jewish and Gentile audience to follow Jesus’s own commands.
2. Matthew 19:29- And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life
Luke 14:26-“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
The verse in Matthew is not extreme as Luke. However in essence both verses is teaching the same thing- one must be ready to leave everything, including one’s parents to be a disciple of Jesus.
3. Jesus did not change his mind.You missed out the following (Matthew 19:20-23)
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Moral of the story: It is not enough to keep the commandments. One must sell his posessions and follow Jesus to enter the Kingdom of God.
3. Divorce- Matthew 5 ,19 & Mark 10 in essence teaches that a man should not divorce his wife. The Torah allows a man to divorce his wife.
Matthew 5 teaches a man who looks at another woman lustfully has committed adultery in his heart. In Jewish law, adultery occurs between a married Jewish man and a married Jewish woman who is not his wife. As such, Jesus is teaching that a married man who looks at a married woman lustfully has already committed adultery , even when physical relations had not taken place. Jewish law does not penalise a man for merely having lustful thoughts.
4. Sorry, I could not understand your question:
my question is, how is any of this a stumbling block for the gentiles in the roman empire, especially those who were mixing with the jews ?
pagans persecuted pagans.
jews persecuted jews.
it was a world of persecution back then.
The quote from Bart Ehrman makes sense. However I would not restrict this to Christianity alone. If a Gentile decides to convert to Judaism, his whole family and slaves would join him as well.
“Hi jamesmay2022,
1. Matthew 23:2-3: I am not confusing you, I am highlighting what is clearly stated in the Gospel- Matthew wants his Jewish and Gentile audience to follow Jesus’s own commands.”
i see that he clearly is making torah OBEDIANCE part of his own commands.
more evidence is here :
https://old.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/c65e0p/what_exactly_was_salvation_to_jesus_good_works/es7oo5j/?context=3
“2. Matthew 19:29- And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life”
notice it did not say that those who did not leave will not receive anything. notice it did not say that it has to be done.
you just get more reward if you do.
did xtian jews who did not abandon their biological parents not qualify for receiving eternal life? since the end was near and evangelism was a necessity, how could you interpret the text as going against the torah ?
“Luke 14:26-“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.”
The verse in Matthew is not extreme as Luke. However in essence both verses is teaching the same thing- one must be ready to leave everything, including one’s parents to be a disciple of Jesus.”
i don’t see that as a necessity in the verse. if evangelism was a necessity , how is it any different than people leaving their mothers and wives behind to go to war?
if you don’t go to war gods judgement is soon to come
if you don’t evangelise gods judgement is soon to come and destroy the disbelievers.
3. Jesus did not change his mind.You missed out the following (Matthew 19:20-23)
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
“Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Moral of the story: It is not enough to keep the commandments. One must sell his posessions and follow Jesus to enter the Kingdom of God.”
this is another interpretation problem. is it just the rich?
if you sell the possessions do you make the poor rich?
do the poor sell their possessions ?
“3. Divorce- Matthew 5 ,19 & Mark 10 in essence teaches that a man should not divorce his wife. The Torah allows a man to divorce his wife.”
matthew created a condition for divorce, why did he do that?
“Matthew 5 teaches a man who looks at another woman lustfully has committed adultery in his heart.”
do people who have wet dreams adulterers?
is a 10 second passing thought of lust adultery?
“In Jewish law, adultery occurs between a married Jewish man and a married Jewish woman who is not his wife.”
” As such, Jesus is teaching that a married man who looks at a married woman lustfully has already committed adultery , even when physical relations had not taken place. Jewish law does not penalise a man for merely having lustful thoughts.”
in judaism if you continuously have lust for your neighbours wife, you are not penalised? there are no divine consequences? neither did jesus say that a thought crime such as lust required physical penalization.
maybe like the jews in his time, he thought of penalty in terms of divine punishment ?
Hi jamesmay2022 ,
I get the impression that you see Jesus as a Rabbi who exhorts his followers towards Torah obedience . As such you force this picture of Jesus into your reading of the Gospel .
However I have repeatedly shown that the Gospel of Matthew emphasise again and again that Jesus has his own Torah (instruction) and he wants us to be obedient to HIS TORAH.
Now , let me ask you a question. If you are so certain that Jesus is making torah OBEDIANCE part of his own commands , please prove to me that the verses in the Gospel we discussed conform to the Torah as revealed in Sinai.
I will end the conversation here. Thank you.
the hebrew bible allows relationship with women who are:
concubines
unmarried
there is no way that the matthean jesus WENT against having intercourse with concubines or unmarried women
evidence :
As eminent an authority as William Loader accepts your first option — that “[t]he context here demands ‘wife’ or ‘married woman’, because ‘adultery’ (μοιχεία), in contrast to the more general term for immorality (πορνεία), relates specifically to marriage” (The New Testament on Sexuality, 114; see also Nolland, 236; Betz, 233).
https://old.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/rk5rjd/do_christians_misinterpret_matthew_528/hpai4j4/?context=3
jesus’ words weren’t directed to concubines or unmarried women, they were about lusting after married women.
Isaiah here is not the linchpin to anything. The inner witness of the Holy Spirit is. We Know. You refuse to know. It is in our spirit as fact. Your hypothetical missionary sounds like a new Christian, or a pretender because God puts the -*Fact of Jesus Christ in our minds – it cannot be mistaken, unbelieved, or doubted. It is as certain as our name. Jeremiah 31-33 did not promise guessing or playing Detective – we Know. You know nothing as you meander around scriptures that have no connection with the Holy Spirit. It’s just words on a page to one without the Spirit.
Your reasons are completely and utterly moot. Everyone going to damnation has a reason, but ultimately they simply do not want anything to do with God’s Salvation.
The Jews were prophecied to reject Christ just as they did with all the prophets. The fact that the Temple was destroyed after this rejection and you’ve had not a peep from God after would be proof to anyone who actually desires to know the real Lord, but you simply will never stop resisting the Holy Spirit.
It sad and bewildering how hardened a heart can become where they literally consent to their own destruction but God’s Word will be fulfilled.
By the way, it’s one thing to go through life indifferent to truth. It’s quite another to actually oppose God as His enemy.
As Gamaliel said:
“leave the followers of Jesus alone. If it’s nothing – it will come to nothing. But if it’s not – you’ll never be able to stop it. In fact you may find you’ve picked a fight with God Himself”
James
Do you believe Jesus is God?
some christians do some don’t.