Differences – Excerpt from “The Council of My Nation”

Differences

What are our theological differences? To put it simply, we can narrow it down to four major differences. There are the issues of idolatry, the Law of Moses, atonement, and Messiah. I think it is important that we define these differences before we go on. Our opposing perspectives gives each of us a different way of looking at each of these issues.

 

 

Idolatry.

The Jewish people identify Christianity’s devotion to a certain person, as idolatrous. This assertion is harsh on Christian ears. Christians consider themselves monotheists and they see their devotion as worship of the One God of Israel. Because of their preconceived notions it is difficult for Christians to appreciate the serious nature of this matter. In order to help you see things in a different light, I will ask you to consider the following question; – If the devotion that Christians apply to their savior were to be directed at another man – would that be idolatry? Do you not realize that if the Christian savior is not what his devotees claim him to be then he is “another man”?

 

 

With an appreciation for the seriousness of the issue, we can define the question. Do the Jewish scriptures advocate devotion to a man? Does it allow this devotion? Or does it prohibit this devotion in the strongest terms?

 

 

The Law of Moses.

This one is tricky, because of the divergence of opinion amongst Jewish Christians on this subject. Many Jewish Christians consider themselves “free” from the Law of Moses, they believe that it no longer applies on a practical level. Others accept the binding nature of the Law of Moses, but accept only those laws explicitly written in the Five Books. Others yet accept the full body of the Law of Moses as defined by the living legacy of the Jewish nation. The basis for this position is the recognition that the Christian savior himself believed this way and that he lead his life accordingly.

 

 

The Jewish contention with each of these positions can be stated in the following terms. To the first group  – We believe that the law of Moses is eternal in nature and is binding upon all of the Jewish people in all generations. To the second group – We believe that the living legacy of the Jewish people is the only context from within which to approach observance of the Law. As for the third group, at first glance it would seem that we are in total agreement, but this is not so. Although the third group accepts that the living legacy of the Jewish nation is the only true context for the Law, they differ with us over some key issues. They do not accept the Jewish definition of the law of idolatry.

 

 

We will have to examine the Jewish scripture as it relates to each of these issues. Does the Jewish scripture acknowledge that the living legacy of the nation is the repository for the law – specifically the law of idolatry? Is the law of Moses binding upon every generation of Jews? What do the Jewish scriptures teach us in these areas?

 

 

Atonement.

Here too, Christians differ in their approach. All Christians agree that no atonement can be achieved without devotion to their savior. The divergence relates to the role of repentance in the atonement process. Some are of the opinion that no action on man’s part can play a role in the atonement process, thus repentance is believed to be a result of atonement and not a cause for atonement. Others accept that repentance is a necessary prerequisite for atonement, but that devotion to the Christian savior is necessary to complete the process. The Jewish position is that repentance is the key component in the atonement process. When man repents, God forgives. We will search the Jewish scriptures for guidance on this matter.

 

 

Messiah.

Christians view the Jewish rejection of the Christian Messiah as the most significant issue dividing the Christian and the Jew. The fact is though that the difference runs much deeper. Our respective understandings of the very concept of Messiah stand poles apart from each other. Aside from the technical issues, such as the difference of opinion about the virgin birth (Christians believe that the Messiah must be born from a virgin while the Jews believe that the Messiah must have a human father from the line of David,) there are some deep theological issues such as the questions of divinity and atonement. Christians believe that the Messiah must be divine, while the Jews believe that he is human. Christians believe that there is no atonement without devotion to the Messiah, while Jews believe that devotion to the Messiah has no bearing on the atonement process. (These two issues – divinity and atonement – are subsumed in the previous categories.)

 

 

Still, the list of differences does not end here. The entire thrust of the Christian concept of Messiah runs counter to the Jewish understanding of this same matter. Christians believe that a new election is achieved through devotion to the Messiah. This means that just as the Jews were elected by God on account of their fathers, Christians are elected by God on account of faith in their Messiah. Some Christians believe that this election supersedes the election of the Jewish people – in other words the Jewish people are no longer God’s elect. Others believe that these elections are parallel to each other and that there are two elect people, the Jews, and those devoted to the Christian Messiah.

The Jewish people accept no such election. They see this claim to election as the antithesis of the entire thrust of God’s Messianic promise. The hope and yearning for the Messianic age is very different in the heart of the Jew than the hope that goes by the same name in the heart of the Christian. One yearns for the ingathering of the scattered of the Jewish people, a rebuilt temple, observance of the Law of Moses, and worldwide worship of the God of Israel, while the Christian looks forward to the vindication of the devotees of his Messiah to the shame of the Jewish people, he looks forward to a world in which the only recognized method of atonement is devotion to the same man. Many Christians are also looking forward to the ultimate nullification of the Law of Moses.

 

 

Finally, we have the issue of unfulfilled Messianic prophecy. So much of the prophecies concerning the Messiah have not been fulfilled. Can we accept the Christian explanation of the second coming of the Messiah? Is there scriptural justification for this doctrine? Can one claim the title “Messiah” and demand the honor contained in that title without having fulfilled all of the Messianic prophecies?  We must examine the Jewish scriptures with each of these positions in mind. We must ask ourselves, on which side of this debate would the prophets of scripture have found themselves?

 

 

With the opposing views relating to these issues in mind we can begin our search of the Jewish scriptures. Which position does the Jewish scripture support, is it the Christian position or the Jewish one?

Before we begin, I would like to make an important point. If our search turns out inconclusive (- I don’t expect this to happen, but just in case -), then I will consider it a modest victory for the Jewish position. Firstly, at least the myth of the supernatural Jewish blindness will have been successfully debunked. If the Jewish scriptures are inconclusive, then no supernatural explanations are necessary to explain the Jewish non-acceptance of Christianity. Of far greater magnitude though, is the issue of idolatry. If one is has the slightest doubt about the theology of the divinity of the Christian Messiah, then there is no moral justification to commit oneself in worship. The risk is far too great. If you are mistaken, then your worship is the greatest rebellion against God imaginable!

 

 

This entry was posted in General. Bookmark the permalink.

60 Responses to Differences – Excerpt from “The Council of My Nation”

    • Jim says:

      Aaron,

      What would you like us to take from your referencing the above verse? What do you believe that you can demonstrate from it?

      Jim

      • bible819 says:

        Jim,

        *The >entire thrust of the Christian concept of MessiahDavid will ((never)) lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18nor will the priests who are Levites ever fail to have a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to present sacrificesNow there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24But because Jesus lives ((forever)), He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely c those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them>

        Never = Forever
        Complete Agreement

  1. bible819 says:

    Jim,

    *The >entire thrust of the Christian concept of MessiahDavid will ((never)) lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18nor will the priests who are Levites ever fail to have a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to present sacrificesNow there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24But because Jesus lives ((forever)), He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely c those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them>

    Never = Forever
    Complete Agreement

    • bible819 says:

      My posts are not coming out with spaces that have been inserted

    • Jim says:

      Aaron,

      Thank you for making the effort to clarify your comment. I am sorry that you had difficulty posting it. However, your efforts have satisfactorily displayed the difference between the Christian concept of the Messiah and the Divine Promise. And, without going into too much detail, I will only reëmphasize them.

      In the Divine Promise, as you quote Jeremiah, the Levitical priesthood is established for eternity. And, those priests will bring sacrifices as well as burnt offerings and grain offerings. Moreover, they serve a separate function from that of the Messiah. But the Christian denies the Divine Promise, clinging instead to human conceptions. The Christian messiah serves as both king and priest. His priesthood is not of the tribe of Levi, which the Christian considers an inferior priesthood. Rather, it is supposed that he is a Melchizedekian priest. Nor does he bring sacrifices and offerings; no, he intercedes in heaven, being himself a sacrifice. The Christian places his faith in human invention, the Torah observant Jew and Noahide in Divine Promise. Without going into further details, it is fair to say, I think, that you have drawn a distinction between Judaism and Christianity.

      If the Christian wishes to trade the Divine Promise for his inferior philosophy, that is his business. But, please do not ask us to trust in the products of human imagination rather than the Divine Promise. Each person must decide for himself whom he will serve. Some will devote themselves to a mere man, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

      Jim

      • Bible819 says:

        Jim,

        Scripture states:

        David will never fail to have a (((man))) to sit on the throne of Israel, 18nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a (((man))) to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings
        = Eternal Man

        The preceding sentence states regarding David:

        I will make a righteous Branch sprout from (((David’s line)));
        = Judah

        This is the name by which it c will be called: The Lord Our Righteous Savior.’
        = Lord

        1) Judaic sacrifices stopped a long time ago. In addition, no Man is setting on the Throne of Israel.

        = Spiritual Man
        The Order of Melchizedek who was indeed a priest spoke nothing of the Levitical priesthood.

        Scripture:
        -You are a priest forever,
        in the order of Melchizedek.
        = Eternal Priest

        Thus, an Eternal Man called Lord who will live forever to offer Sacrifices to God from Judah.

        That man is Jesus or Yahshua who is Eternal.
        My Lord!

        • Jim says:

          Aaron,

          I am trying with difficulty to follow your comments, but I find them largely impenetrable. So, if I misunderstand you, I ask for your indulgence. As I understand you, you do affirm that the Christian messiah is an invention based on a selective reading. You seize upon the word “man” and give it your own special interpretation and neglect those parts of the passage that do not fit your theology–a theology of human invention. You do not surround the words “burnt offering” or “Levitical priests” with parentheses, emphasizing them the way you do “man.” Indeed your interpretation treats them as if they did not exist. You discard the Words of God.

          If your aim is to display that the Christian “interpretation” is based on a selective and tortuous reading of the prophets, then you and I are in agreement. So, the question is: Why should anyone follow such an “interpretation”? Those who wait for the fulfillment of the promise of God will actually want to know what that promise is; they will not exchange His Promise for a product of their imaginations. To rewrite God’s Promise is an act of presumption and displays a lack of trust in God, a lack of faith. To those that wait upon the fulfillment of God’s Promises, the false promises of the Church hold no attraction, just as one does not trade a pound of gold for ten pounds of pyrite.

          Jim

          • bible819 says:

            Jim,

            You gave a huge opinion rather than scripture.

            Melchizedek Priesthood is what I’m referring to that doesn’t rely on (Mans) righteousness.
            + Eternal Man

          • Jim says:

            Aaron,

            On the contrary, I have only appealed to the scripture that you yourself quoted. You have neglected those words and phrases that do not fit your theology and given a special emphasis to other words and phrases in order to impose a meaning not in the text. Moreover–and this I have not yet mentioned–you have removed the verses out of their context, which, if they were read in context, clearly are not fulfilled by Jesus.

            Unfortunately, the Church has a habit of quoting scripture in order to borrow its authority, while misrepresenting it. In so doing, they treat Torah as a puppet, putting their own ideas into the mouth of scripture. They then claim that the voice heard is God’s; it is the voice of Man.

            With respect, you have done likewise, being taught the same methods of misreading and misrepresentation. You quote Jeremiah, but then ignore his words. You write as if you said only what he said, but you did not. He did not promise a Melchizedekian priesthood. He specifically promised a Levitical priesthood. But you have acted otherwise, because Hebrews tells you otherwise. In reality, your quoting Jeremiah is pretense. You are really teaching Hebrews, and you, like any Christian ventriloquist, have tried to put the words of Hebrews into the mouth of Jeremiah. But, like any Christian ventriloquist, the words you speak do not match those of Jeremiah. We know that it is not Jeremiah’s words you are speaking. The evidence is on the page. The Christian messiah is not the Messiah promised by God…

            And your work only serves to illustrate this fact.

            Jim

  2. bible819 says:

    Jim,

    *The >entire thrust of the Christian concept of Messiah< runs counter to the Jewish understanding of this same matter????

    • bible819 says:

      Truth: Jeremiah
      >David will ((never)) lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18nor will the priests who are Levites ever fail to have a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to present sacrifices<

      • bible819 says:

        Truth: Hebrews
        >Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24But because Jesus lives ((forever)), He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely c those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them>

        • bible819 says:

          Never = Forever
          Complete Agreement

        • Concerned Reader says:

          bible819, Jesus was never a Levite fit to serve in the temple, so even metaphorically we cannot say that he stands in their place and fulfills their function.

          Now, someone 2,000 years ago, could have plugged the Baptist John into the Hebrews style formula, and made all the same theological and Christology claims about him as your text here makes about Jesus, but at least John was a bonafide Levite.

          If someone did that, Christians would call that “antichrist” even though in this case, John would make a cleaner fit than Jesus.

  3. Concerned Reader says:

    Bible 819 Jeremiah as you quoted explicitly says “David will ((never)) lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18nor will the priests who are Levites ever fail to have a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to present sacrifices<"

    Is the Melchizedek priesthood Levitical? According to Jeremiah it is the Levites who will always be priests. According to the book of Hebrews the Levitical priesthood is essentially depicted as flawed, so this "new and better" priesthood must needs replace it. Jeremiah doesn't say that at all.

    In no way can that reading from Hebrews be seen as bringing to fruition what is written in Jeremiah.

    To be charitable, If you believed John the Baptist was this priest after the order of Melchizedek I might be able to take the Hebrews argument more seriously, because at least John was a bonafide Levite, so if he was your messiah claimant at least you could claim he would be a risen Levite, who could fulfill the saying of the verse literally.

    With Jesus, Hebrews is essentially saying "the levitical priesthood must end because Jesus doesn't fit otherwise."

    How can you not see the very clear problem there?

  4. Concerned Reader says:

    Melchizedek Priesthood is what I’m referring to that doesn’t rely on (Mans) righteousness.
    + Eternal Man

    1st of all, you are reading a concept from Hebrews back into the Jewish Bible, rather than reading what the Torah actually says about Melchizedek. As far as the Hebrew Bible is concerned, Melchizedek is a human king of Salem who blessed Abraham, nothing more, nothing less as the text itself gives you no reason to think otherwise.

    Nowhere does the text even imply that this person was eternal, angelic, or that he represented an eternal type. What is to stop the rabbinic reading from being true that Melchizedek was actually Shem?

    The problem with typology is that you can apply it to anyone of your choosing. There is no way to vet such a claim.

    I also wonder why put so much stake into a book where even in the Church its authorship is recognized to be uncertain. Was it written by Paul? Barnabas? Clement? Nobody knows for sure.

    It was accepted on a Prima Facie basis by the Churches because it mostly fit their preexisting theologies and it had the backing of some big names.

    I’m actually amazed that Hebrews made it into the Canon while 1 Enoch (an older pre Christian book) did not, except that 1 Enoch is actually in the Canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

    Speaking of typology, wouldn’t you assume that typology should be consistent?

    For example, In 1 Enoch, Enoch is treated as a prophet, and as a scribe, (a role that can be held by any Israelite,) but he is never described as a priest, (a strictly levitical function.) So, while he fits a type, its a type that ordinarily anyone could fit.

    The problem with your typology of Jesus as simultaneously being Davidic king and a priest is that it doesn’t address the specificity of Jeremiah where a distinctive promise is made about David, and another about the Levites, and in the Torah these two offices are separate.

    The one time in Jewish history where the offices were joined (by the Hasmoneans,) it caused an uproar because it deviated from the explicit instructions and norms of the Torah. In fact, the only way to legitimize their authority would be to call themselves rulers, not “kings,” like the later Exilearchs.

    One could be a priest and a Nasi at the same time, like Moses, but he was a Levite, so it was an established norm. See the difference?

    The idea that levites and Kohanim could hold a role as rulers is kind of pre Sinai, as Torah treated them as the Shepherds of Israel before the Exodus, but that is a unique situation.

    Even Christians are confused and argue about what the exact nature will be of a future temple as it is described in their own New Testament.

    Is it an antichrist’s temple? Is it built by Jesus? Is it an antichrist temple that is later purified by Jesus? Are sacrifices done at this temple just as a remembrance? Is it administered by Levites as has always been the norm?

    The Christian Bible doesn’t even try to answer these questions within its own tradition, (unless you count Catholic and Eastern Orthodox who do,) but there is an issue there.

    Just because you choose to make a connection doesn’t mean its cogent. That’s why I gave you the example of John the Baptist as a better fit of your typology, because if he was used in your typology, at least it would be consistent with what has come before.

    • bible819 says:

      Concerned Reader,

      I responded but received a message saying that I had already posted.

      That said, don’t know where it went.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        I responded but received a message saying that I had already posted.

        That said, don’t know where it went.

        Care to take another crack at it for me so I can see if you respond to my points?

  5. Jim says:

    Aaron,

    I thought I should draw attention to a point that has been stated many times, but perhaps could bear repeating. When you write that the Christian messiah rules in heaven, so that he fulfills the passage in Jeremiah from which you quoted, it should be noted that this is a claim without any evidence, fitting within the pattern of general Christian proofs which are invisible. If Jesus rules in a heavenly realm, none of us can know that. Yet, the passage does contain elements that would be visible if they had been fulfilled. Jeremiah writes of a time of peace, a time when Judah will be saved and when Jerusalem would be secure (Jeremiah 33:16). If these things had happened in the time of Jesus, they would have been observed and known. However, the opposite happened. Shortly after the coming of the Christian messiah, no one could say that Judah had been saved or that Jerusalem dwelt in security. Instead, great tragedy befell them.

    One observes then, that the Christian claims lack credibility, because any element of a prophecy that could be tested, Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled in secret. Any elements that would be known publicly, he did not fulfill. While Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled many prophecies, these fulfillments must be taken on faith, for they are private events of which virtually no one had any knowledge. One must be highly dubious of the claims to fulfilled prophecy that happen in secret.

    Let me ask you, honestly, would you accept similar proofs from any other claimant to the title of Messiah or even Prophet? Let us say a man arises, claiming to the Jesus returned, and he submits as proof to you that he just descended from the clouds, privately, in an event witnessed by few or no one, would you not be right to doubt his claims? Of course you would be. And, if he claimed that he had been at the right hand of the Father for the past two millenia, would you accept the mere claim? Would you pledge him fealty? Would you do his bidding? If not, then on what grounds do you expect others to behave any differently?

    The fulfillment of prophecy in private is not proof of anything, by nature of the proof being unknown. The missionary claim that Jesus fulfilled oh-so-many prophecies is baseless, because even if a great many of those prophecies were not misrepresentations by the Church, they were fulfilled privately and cannot serve to verify his claims. For example, he was supposed to have been born in Bethlehem in fulfillment of messianic prophecy, yet his birth in Bethlehem was a private event, unknown to the populace. (See John 7:42.) Allowing that Jesus may actually have been born in Bethlehem—and ignoring questions of Christian misinterpretation of Micah—this cannot be used as a piece of evidence in support of the Church’s claim that he is the messiah, because the event was unknown. His resurrection falls in the same category. It cannot be used to establish the legitimacy of his prophecy, because it was not fulfilled publicly. It is an untestable claim.

    One must find it highly suspicious that observable prophecies, such as the security of Jerusalem, were not fulfilled in Jesus’ time, while he fulfilled all kinds of unobservable prophecies, like sitting on a spiritual throne far from the eyes of men. All the qualities of the messiah that one could observe, he does not have. He has only certain qualities that cannot be observed, that must be accepted on faith—and under threat of Hellfire everlasting! Of course, the Church tells us that he will fulfill those publicly observable items later, but then, that too is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim, no less dubious.

    Jim

    • bible819 says:

      Jim,

      I’m sure the Jews in 70AD felt the same way.

      Yet as a result of God Judgement was contrary to Jews beliefs.

      Small judgement Sample of the first temple:

      70 year exile which was due to:
      *Abandoning God
      *They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire to worship the Devil
      *We have brought no salvation to the earth, nor brought any life into the world.

      and so forth.

      Answer to 2nd temple destruction:

      See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

      Praise Jesus the Messiah

      • Dina says:

        If those pre-Jesus Jews were so wicked, why do you accept as reliable the Torah which they preserved?

        On the other hand, if such wicked and rebellious Jews could nevertheless preserve the word of God, why can the same not be said of the post-Jesus Jews?

        • bible819 says:

          Hi Dina,

          Great Questions!

          – If those pre-Jesus Jews were so wicked, why do you accept as reliable the Torah which they preserved?

          * For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

          1) The Egyptians and Jews were no different spiritually when God condemned them both to die in the Desert.

          *Represents the Nature of Man-Kind

          2) I know that Jews are God’s chosen, people.

          *It is not by your righteousness or uprightness of heart that you are going in to possess their land, but it is because of their wickedness that the LORD your God will drive out these nations

          3) It was always God’s Righteousness that made Israel Righteous.
          ——–
          – On the other hand, if such wicked and rebellious Jews could nevertheless preserve the word of God, why can the same not be said of the post-Jesus Jews?

          4) Preserving the Word of God did not depend on the Catholics who killed those who Knew the Yeshua of the Bible. Nor would the (Apple of God’s Eye) be able to corrupt the incorruptible.

          *After the king had burned the scroll on which Baruch had written Jeremiah’s words, the LORD gave Jeremiah another message.

        • Concerned Reader says:

          excellent question Dina.

  6. Concerned Reader says:

    I’m sure it is Dina.

    We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.

    You sound like a self righteous Gnostic when you quote things like this. “G-d chose to tell me the truth, and I know cause I know, and you cant know because you don’t have the spirit to know.”

    This claim you make that its incomprehensible to those without “eternal man/spirit” is exactly equivalent to what Mormon’s do to prop up Joseph smith as a prophet when you ask them for some proof or consistency. Its exactly what Gnostics and Mystics do also.

    “can we see actual tangible evidence of your Egyptian tablets there Joe?” “uh…hurr…durr…just trust me.”

    Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

    As Jim asked you if Jesus is seated eternally and ruling from heaven, how is it that we can check this claim and verify it? If he were fulfilling the words of Jeremiah, the world would see the effects of Jeremiah’s words presumably, if the text and your concept are consistent with each other.

    I understand the typology you are trying to employ, but there are just so many levels on which it doesn’t work and is inconsistent with what is known.

    • Concerned Reader says:

      Also, just a personal question. Do you believe the people here are wrong to question your claims, when your own book would have you question anyone else’s claims in exactly the same way?

      Try not to be offended, as no offense is intended, but I’m afraid that if you saw some guy hop out of the sky with holes in his hands and feet, doing miracles left and right, claiming to be the Nazarene, you would just assume in your heart that it was Jesus, and you would worship him.

      That seems to be where your standard of evidence leads, not where it should be, namely consistency with the covenant.

      No Christian in the world today has ever seen the Nazarene in person. Nobody knows what he looks like, and yet, they all walk into buildings with Crosses and Crucifixes with an artistic depiction of some image, watch movies with actors who dress like this popular image. and heed theological musings about this person nobody on earth today has ever even seen physically in person!

      Even if I say you are not an idol worshiper and that Christians believe in the one G-d, just the services and popular culture surrounding all this should make anyone nervous because of what it shows you and compels people to do.

      When these people here are telling you “hold the phone man, lets check it out,” they are literally using a standard found in Tanakh, but also in your own NT books!

      The commandments are supposed to be the biblical barometer, not secret wisdom from heaven only revealed to a select “special” few.

      • Bible819 says:

        Concerned

        70 Year vs 1900 year Exile+ testifies that Israel did something worse than:

        Abandoning God

        *They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire to worship the Devil
        *We have brought no salvation to the earth, nor brought any life into the world.

        Daniel 9:26 is the answer.

        6Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

        Isaiah 43:19
        See, I am doing a new thing!
        Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?

        The Jews completely failed with the Law.

        Common Sense

        You have absolutely no answer for the 1900+ exile.

        • Bible 819 It is interesting that you say we have no answer for a 1900 year exile – when the Torah explicitly says that when we don’t behave we get sent into exile.

          What is your answer for a 2000 year hiatus before Jesus’ return which was supposed to take place in the same generation that saw him die? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  7. Concerned Reader says:

    Ok, well that took a really nasty turn very fast, from what I thought were straightforward thoughtful questions on my part.

    Jews are sacrificing their children? The only ones I see talking with pride about sacrificing one like a human being are people who worship Jesus, so you might reconsider your rhetiric thete.

    If Jews did something so awful to warrant a long exile, shouldn’t Torah provide clearer proof than your types and shadows?

    I think you are upset that I have pointed out that Jews are judging Jesus’ claims by the same standard that you would use as a Christian to test the claims of Muhammad or Joseph Smith.

    You clearly reject these men because their prophecies and claims flatly contradoct what you know about God, using the commandments as the measuring stick.

    I am sorry, but Jesus belief flatly changes the terms of the covenant at Sinai, so Jews reject it because Torah says to.

    • bible819 says:

      Concerned,

      I gave scripture and consequences.

      You wrote a bunch of emotions in which attributes to the heart that is deceitful above all things.

      Jeremiah 19:5:
      Read your Bible

      • Bible 819 I gave you 1000 verses (first article on this blog) – you don’t seem to care what the Bible says unless you can twist it to fit what your heart wants to hear.

        1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • bible819 says:

          Mr. Phariseefriend,

          I respectfully disagree.

          1) You have never given me 1000 verses of anything.

          2) 70 vs 2000 years needs an explanation. I gave the answer but Concerned gave emotions rather what actually happened before the 1st exile.

          70 Year Judgement:

          Jeremiah:
          They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire to worship the Devil

          Isaiah:
          *We have brought no salvation to the earth, nor brought any life into the world.

          Ezekiel

          Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

          2nd Exile Explanation:

          Daniel
          Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

          3) In other words, (the Messiah Came, was taken, and then the (End shall Come like a flood)

          4) Zechariah

          Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him

          Praise Yeshua

          • Bible 819
            Here are 1000 Verses (note the date that this posted)
            https://judaismresources.net/2010/08/31/1000-verses/
            BTW – the anointed one of Daniel 9 is cut off at the same time that the city is destroyed – not 5 weeks of years before
            Do you have an answer for Jesus’ failure to return when he said he would?

          • Bible819 says:

            yourphariseefriend,

            1) “1000 verses blog” Had nothing to do with the 2nd exile lasting over 1000 years and counting.

            What did Israel do?

            2) “BTW cut off at the same time”… It never said the same time*** And after the threescore and two weeks

            3) “Jesus return” It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light = No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

          • Bible 819 1) I quoted the 1000 Verses to show that you are fooling no one (but yourself) when you say that you follow the Bible 2) You didn’t say the same time – but Daniel did. 3) Is this supposed to be an explanation of Jesus’ failure to return when he said he would? (a 2000 year delay – mind you) 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Bible819 says:

            yourphariseefriend:

            same time – but Daniel did
            1) Scripture?

          • Bible819 says:

            Yourphariseefriend:

            same time – but Daniel did
            1) Scripture?

          • Bible 819 Read it in Daniel 9:26 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • bible819 says:

            yourphariseefriend,

            Scripture:

            And after threescore and two weeks
            And After*** does not mean “Same Time”

          • Bible 819 The prophet is talking about a time line (70 weeks) and he is saying that at this point of the time-line these two events will happen (anointed cut off and city destroyed) – that means “same time.” I guess if “this generation” can mean 2000 years then you can put a 2000 year pause in the verse in Daniel which is all about timing

            Did you notice the arguments of Concerned Reader? – take them to heart – they are not emotion – they artciulate to the heart of the Bible

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • bible819 says:

            yourphariseefriend:

            1) (70 Weeks) Agreed:

            Where do you place in your timeline “The end will come like a flood”

            “After” the sixty-two ‘sevens doesn’t = Same Time

            Point Being, Israel has been in exile Since Yeshua the Messiah was “led like a lamb to the slaughter” “Cut off” from this earth.

            2) Regarding the Return from Exile:

            Israel will return to Meet the “Worthless Shepard, Anti-Christ), who = will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him

            3) Jesus the Cornerstone will save (Israel and Abraham Seed) from him:

            Daniel 8:25

            As it is written:

            Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands.

            Now, I will comb through Concerned

  8. Concerned Reader says:

    Bible819, I did not give you emotions, I explained thoroughly why your typology of Jesus as a priestly king failed on every level, and then you proceeded with a couple of verses that you plucked from their context and applied to a random idea of a person you have never met.

    I’ve explained to you why that doesn’t work. Your own book would not support that type of reading about anyone, so you are being inconsistent!

    If I said that the comforter Jesus spoke of in the gospels was Muhammad and not the holy ghost, you would rightly call me out on it.

    I could rebut you with “well, you don’t know for sure!” But that doesn’t mean anything! That’s gibberish.

    I am calling you out on applying verses to Jesus that could not fit him in the same way Muhammad doesn’t fit in your gospel.

    You want an explanation for 2,000 years of exile? Baseless hatred. The exile could not possibly be caused by Israel refusing to pray to or pay homage to a son of man, Period! Do you know how I know this clearly and unambiguously?

    You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars–all the heavenly array–do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

    Your gospel texts confirm that I have the right reading of Deuteronomy 4 because when the beast of revelation comes seeking worship as a man claiming to be a god sitting in the temple, your book tells you to ignore such a one at the cost of your very life.

    Ergo, you have a double standard, special pleading, and cognitive dissonance that you are applying unconsciously only in the case of the Nazarene.

    I say the Bible teaches unilaterally not to pray to or pay homage to anything that looks like a human being.

    You would say the same, but you make an exception for Jesus.

    However, I do not even see a physical Nazarene anywhere on planet earth at the moment do you?
    You say he is in heaven!

    Meanwhile, I see images, sects, and pop culture images everywhere!

    So, in the here and now, what is it in terms of actual divine service that you are advocating?

    Christian services.

    You would love people to go to a Church on Sunday, or Saturday and look at a wooden image of a man on a cross, and hear the stories, hoping that they be reminded and associate this image and various prophetic texts with Yeshua who died 2,000 years ago.

    The verses I gave you just above would completely contradict this kind of religious service in form if not functionally as foreign to the covenant.

    You never met Jesus, neither did I, we only heard the stories from pastors and family. Based on these stories, we went to Church, where we saw crosses or Crucifixes, and they said “Jesus died for you” pointing to that image!

    Imagine if instead of a golden calf, Israel had made a golden Moses.

    Based off of their memories of him, they teach the people.

    Imagine that while Moses is on the mountain, the people of Israel are telling stories of his mighty works and setting up communities. People go to large temples and gaze at the Golden Moses behind the pulpit and they are healed from all matter of diseases. They sing songs about Moses, they celebrate his birth, his miraculous escape from Egyot, and they await the day he will return.

    Now, imagine that he is on the mountain for 1,000 years. Everyone who knew him while he was on earth has died. Are you telling me that he would recognize a damn thing when he comes down with the tablets of the law?

    I submit to you, that this is the only kind of service you could ever be advocating for concerning Jesus, because that kind of service is all the gospels have to offer.

  9. bible819 says:

    Concerned,

    You want an explanation for 2,000 years of exile? Baseless hatred.

    That is emotional.

    • Concerned Reader says:

      Though “emotional” It also happens to be verifiable. Two thousand years ago you had Sadduccees, Pharisees, Qumran Sectarians, Torah observant Nazarenes, Zealots, Samaritans, etc. all observing the Torah’s commands in accordance with their group’s tradition/their conscience.

      In spite of the fact that everyone was observant to an extent (with the exception of the hellenists,) Jews were still harming each other because they had a different tradition, or a different opinion, even if the outcome or cumulative effect of each group’s manner of observance was very similar. Everyone was a heretic to someone else.

      Take, as an example the relative strictness of the Sadduccees interpretations of the Torah, how they saw themselves as the purists.

      For all their emphasis on ritual purity, and their stringency, the temple they managed was refurbished by an Edomite, by a man who killed his own children, and could not even enter into the temple.

      So, does all that strictness say much in actuality?

      You see the same exact problem in the history of Christian sectarianism, vis purity tests, and in particular in the protestant reformation.

      Christians killing other Christians en masse because they have the “wrong” theological formula, which is itself a very subjective matter dependent largely on your level of knowledge.

      Do you think it makes God happy to see all people who exist in his image indiscriminately harming one another when there is no reason?

      Also, out of all that I wrote, this is what you respond with? A one line non answer?

      You want to complain about an appeal to emotion? Your entire faith is based on whether a person feels deeply remorseful over the death of Jesus! Are you really going to claim that isn’t emotional?

      • bible819 says:

        Concerned Reader:

        I misread what you said, for that, I apologize. Thought you said, I hated Jews which would be false.

        That said, will comb through what you have written. Give me some time.

      • bible819 says:

        Concerned,

        The only Truth is the Word of God, the Spirit of God, and God himself.

        1) David will ((never)) lack a man to sit on the throne,
        This is the name by which it c will be called:
        The Lord Our Righteous Savior.

         Lord and Righteous Savior

        Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine— since he was priest of God Most High

         King

        2) nor will the priests who are Levites ever fail to have a man before Me to offer burnt offerings

        Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine— since he was priest of God Most High

         High Priest

        3) LORD says to my lord
        You are a priest forever,
        in the order of Melchizedek

         A forever Priest who is Lord

        4) Sit at my right hand

         Lord sits at God right hand

        Yeshua is the Savior, High Priest, and King.
         He is the Word of God

        For I am a great King,” says the LORD of Hosts, “and My name is to be feared among the nations.”

        God is King

  10. Concerned Reader says:

    Bibs, thank you for offering no response. It would be enough for you to say you dont have an answer.

    • bible819 says:

      Concerned Reader,

      But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        That is the easiest BS answer that anyone could accept for themselves Bibs. It requires no work or introspection from you to call a Jew blind.

        “well, they don’t accept what I do because they are blinded.” That is your own excuse for why you feel that you don’t have to learn their perspective, there is nothing true in that statement of yours.

        What about me? I was raised Christian. I know very well what the New Testament says, I was raised with it! I know your proof texts and your typologies, and here is the thing.

        It says David will never lack one on his throne, but it makes the same promise to the Levites, and Jesus (as I explained to you) cannot fulfill that promise, not even with Hebrews’ cloud shape concept of a different priesthood. (which would not be fulfillment BTW)

        I even broke down for you why the Melchizedek priesthood concept would not work, and being charitable, I showed you a way that such a typology could make better sense to the plain meaning of the verse.

        You obliterate the plain meaning of the words of the Hebrew Bible in order to produce your readings and force Jesus in there, IE you are importing new meanings unknown to the plain sense of the book, just like the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses do with the New Testament, you do that with the Tanakh.

        Would you become a Bahai if they told you their prophet was the spiritual second coming of Jesus?

        Off course not, because there is ZERO verifiable evidence of that.

        When you say the proof is the word of God, Jesus is the word of God, therefore Jesus is true proof, you are just engaging in circular reasoning.

        Jesus cannot stand just on the words of the Tanakh, which is why you, as a Christian believe in the second coming.

        There was no end to sin
        There was no eternal righteousness
        Israel does not dwell in safety
        There is no universal knowledge of God

        Jesus did not fulfill these things. His movement has caused a ton of bloodshed and internal strife. Jews experienced centuries of Christian persecution because they would not bend the knee to a wooden or stone crucifix with an IMAGE OF A MAN on it!

        You say “accept Jesus” when what you mean to say in reality is “accept the man made image of a man who I say is Jesus, having never known the rabbi from Nazareth.”

        You have to believe that Jesus will come back to fulfill words and prophecies literally that he did not fulfill while he was alive and here on the planet earth.

        You then have to construct a cloud shape typology to say he fulfills symbolically the prophecies that one day he will fulfill literally.

        “ah, but wait, he was a king and priest in Heaven!” clearly because he was not one on earth.

        The only difference between a Jew who is waiting for Messiah to come and you, is that you are requiring people to accept your candidate without evidence, and calling them blind if they don’t, while even you internally admit with the second coming belief that he hasn’t done the job.

        I have explained to you that a typology can be fitted to anyone, so they cant serve as proof of anything, and I have pointed out that even the New Testament understands this fact, it just applies one standard to Jesus, and the Torah standard to everyone else who claims to be a messiah.

        You are not able to answer this, which is fine, but I am not going to call you blinded by God because you disagree, because that would be the epitome of a weak argument.

        Do you think I haven’t tried to make Jesus fit? Do you think I don’t understand Christian theology? Its very spineless to call someone blind rather than to just admit that you cannot answer a particular point.

        • bible819 says:

          Concerned,

          Lets Investigate:

          That is the easiest BS answer that anyone could accept for themselves Bibs. It requires no work or introspection from you to call a Jew blind.

          1)
          God himself calls Israel Blind that is why we believe:
          Isaiah 44:18
          Isaiah 6:9-10
          1000 Years + Exile speaks for itself = Blind
          ——————————————————————–
          “well, they don’t accept what I do because they are blinded.” That is your own excuse for why you feel that you don’t have to learn their perspective, there is nothing true in that statement of yours.
          2)
          God himself calls Israel Blind that is why we believe:
          Isaiah 44:18
          Isaiah 6:9-10
          1000 Years + Exile speaks for itself = Blind
          —————————————————————
          What about me? I was raised, Christian. I know very well what the New Testament says, I was raised with it! I know your proof texts and your typologies, and here is the thing.

          3)
          If you had the Holy Spirit, you’d know that no man can understand the New Testament by his own intellect.

          Only Prophets had the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament

          As Moses Cries pertaining to Israel

          But Moses replied, “Are you jealous on my account? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would place His Spirit on them!”

          ————————————————————————
          It says David will never lack one on his throne, but it makes the same promise to the Levites, and Jesus (as I explained to you) cannot fulfill that promise, not even with Hebrews’ cloud shape concept of a different priesthood.

          Lord Our Righteous Savior

          Melchizedek was NOT a Levite but he was King and

          Preist of God most High.

          thus

          David Said: You are a priest forever in the Order of Melchizedek

          Where does he Sit? at the Right Hand who is Yeshua

          The stone the builders rejected
          has become the cornerstone;

          Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord

          • bible 819 Do you believe that someone can be blind without realizing that they are blind? Is it possible that someone can think that they understand the holy spirit and that they understand Scripture but are in fact blind and understand neither?

            If you answered “Yes” to this question – then I ask you – how do you know that you are not blind? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • LarryB says:

          CR
          I noticed bibs819 uses Isiah 44:18 where god is calling, blindness to those who worship false idols. Fashioning wood to human form. Clearly he made a mistake.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            Larry, he also said the New Testament couldnt be understood by mere intellect, that only those with the Holy Ghost and Prophesy can understand it.

            Seems like a different standard then the Torah.

            Last I heard the word of God was meant to be comprehensible by people from the little children all the way to the elderly. That is why it is read every year.

            So, is he now a prophet?

            So, I guess baptism, living after Jesus’ example to the best of my ability, prayer, and Eucharist were nowhere near enough to seal me as one of Jesus’ chosen.

            Also, last I checked the standard of a true prophet is that he doesnt speak about a God unknown to the fathers.

            I see nothing in Tanakh about eating a man’s flesh, or drinking his blood for God’s approval, or as a rememberance.

            The only thing Christian worship bears any semblance to is the worship of Nehushtan, a biblical miracle turned idol.

            Rather than gazing at a brass serprnt for healibg, its a crucifix.

            I guess God was also kidding about abhoring the sacrifice of human beings?

            Still amazed that Bible819 cant just say he does not know.

  11. Concerned Reader says:

    Bibs, you have an issue with reading.

    The verse in Jeremiah makes 1 promise to David regarding descendants, and another promise in kind to the Levitical priests.

    Psalm 110, a psalm of David, about an order after Melchizedek cannot be a fulfilment of Jeremiah’s promise to the Levitical priests that they would not lack someone standing before God.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.