The Veil

The Veil

The ongoing missionary effort to direct the heart of the Jew towards Jesus in worship has generated many discussions between proponents of Jesus and those who do not accept his claims. Many of these discussions focus on the Jewish Scriptures with each side of the debate coming in to the conversation with the firm belief that they are following the plain meaning of Scripture.

Some people recognize that this conversation cannot get off the ground without the belief that this discussion can lead to the truth. Indeed; it is my firm belief that a civil and respectful discussion, where both parties are willing to put all of their preconceived notions on the table, will only lead both parties closer to the truth.

I have encountered some people who engage in this discussion without any belief in the power of such a discussion to move people closer to what they see as the truth. These people believe that their spiritual adversaries should listen to their preaching but they are not willing to hear what their opponents have to say. They only put up a facade of a “two way discussion” in order to lure their victims into the range of their one way proselytization campaign. But when their opponents put up any arguments beyond the superficial these proselytizers dismiss their opponents as people who are incapable of participating in the spiritual discussion.

A typical argument of these “one way propagandists” is the argument of spiritual blindness. They contend that their opponents are stricken by spiritual blindness so there is no point in engaging in a two way discussion with them.

The following e-mail exchange took place between myself and one of these propagandists.

After I presented a Scriptural interpretation to this missionary; he responded with the following:

Your email confirms to me exactly what Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3. The veil is over your heart when you read Torah.

I responded with the following note:

So it goes back to the veil – the blindness.

1) God says that the veil is over the eyes of the nations – Isaiah 25:7. God gave the Torah to the Jewish people and to them alone – (Psalm 147:19) – but it is the gentiles who know how to read it?! – You know my friend, when it is Paul vs. God, who it is that we ought to be listening to.

2) You claim that you are reading it without a veil – so you should be able to explain where I went wrong – which verse I missed or misinterpreted.

3) Yes, I do get dogmatic at times, but I thank the God of truth who guides me on the path – He shows me the verses, He gives me the understanding to articulate so that I never have to resort to an argument like Paul’s – “their eyes are clouded over by a veil”.

Yes; we all approach these issues with our personal bias. But we can move closer to the truth through civil and respectful discussion. It may take time and demand patience, but eventually such a discussion will bear fruit.

Dismissing your opponent’s ability to process information is the first step in dehumanizing your fellow man.

Don’t go there.

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Yisroel C. Blumenthal

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40 Responses to The Veil

  1. Blasater says:

    The church wants us to remove our “veil”. What that means, is that they want us to accept their narrative, their “midrash” and their eisegesis. Just like the Mormon who smugly asserts the church has gone off the rails, they have been deceived by Satan and the church has a veil over their eyes. The church will respond to the Mormon, hey, we are the keepers of the Christian narrative. “Jsus said to Peter, upon this rock I build my church and hell will not prevail over it” ….The Mormons call Jsus a liar…Hell has not prevailed over the church…and Mormonism is false.

    The church doesnt see the irony of their position.

    G-d said the Jewish people would be the keepers of the truth, there is NO conditional event in Tanakh that gives the gentile nations the truth and THEY make G-d a liar (G-d forbid) when they assert otherwise.

  2. hyechiel says:

    Dear Readers;
    Why even have this discussion, if the Christians cannot agree that the other sects are as good as their is. Protestant vs Catholic is a good example; the Church is from the ocuncils, which set the pirenatur for the faith. If the Church is wrong, how can the other Christians say that they are right, as their foundation emerged from thesame set of ideals? So why bother Jews, who at least have an unity in our discussion. And also, we do not have several versions to guide us-each version leading towards a bais of the sect.
    I think if Christians were as Christian in their approach towards each other, as say, Hindus and jews are to each, then they could exhibit a sanctity that i would respect. When their approach is to say i either agree with them, or I am wrong, I cannot respect them, as they have no respect shown for themselves.

  3. Annias Bell says:

    To my Jewish friends:
    I’m a gentile born in the U.S.A. and raised a christian from my youth. It was the only doctrine I knew until I entered college. That was about 38 years ago. 2 years ago, I started to read the bible from the begining to the end. I didn’t read the new century books. Then, everything I was tought was turned upside down. I slowly began to see that these new century books, Mathew to Revelation, do not line up with the Tanach. In fact, it is outright blasphemy. This JC person is not a God-man who shed his blood to save me from a Devil’s hell. In fact, I read somwhere in the Phophets where some of the people started sacrificing their children, and God was telling them to stop, that nothing like that even entered his mind. That’s how horrible human sacrifice is.

    I finally came to this conclusion only after I stopped excepting those new testiment books as authoritive. That was my mistake, and the same with everyone who excepts christian teaching. What Hyechiel says is correct. Look at the 3,000 plus different denominations that can’t agree among themselves. So far, no one in my family will listen to me. They will not hear, and I’m all alone now.

    There is only one authority for learning about our Creator – The Torah, and God gave this to one people only, the Jewish People.

    I hope someday I will be able to study with the Jewish People, to grab hold of one of your tzit-tzits and say, Surely, God is with your people, teach me about Him because I want to serve Him.

    From my heart in love,

    • Annias
      You are not alone the God of Israel is with you – He is near to ALL who call upon Him in truth – Psalm 145:18

    • hyechiel says:

      Dear Annias Bell;
      Thank you for your heartfelt sharing. I shared it with my partner, Claire, who was born Catholic and is now Christian. We agreed when we came together that religion is the last thing on our agenda to concern us; I encourage her to be faithful to her faith.
      It is unfortunate, but what G-d gave us to draw us together, we use to separate and belittle. We fight, instead of love, based on different versions of what is called religion.
      In my postings, I have remarked that although I am glade many Christians see our way as so good, many convert, I would preferred that the energy be used to bring the Christian communities together, to work for the benefit of all, to help make His world the way He wants it to be. So I urge those who can to encourage all Christians to seek what you have in common, to do justly, love mercy and walk in humility with the L-rd, our G-d.
      What have we seen over the past several years? The opposite.
      Religion, true faith in G-d as each person knows him, should at the very least draw people together, to separate members of one’s family. One reason I encourage inner — outreach, as Jews have for our fellow members.
      I hope that somehow, the message of Jesus, or the Psalms, or something opens your families eyes and see your path as good as any, and shall love you as you deserve.
      May G-d bless you on your journey.

    • hyechiel says:

      Dear Annias;
      Thank you for your kind words. What I look for is nont agreement, but the freedom and respect we should be able to expect from G-d-fearing people of all faiths.
      Judaism accepts that the Beni-Noah, the Children of Noah, are as sanctified as we are. They have the 7 Laws of HaShem, and this is all, if you live by them, a person needs. If your faith is compatible with them, we see it as G-d given.
      In Judaism, also, we can and do discuss things as if there is no tomorrow. In the Talmud, we retain the opinions of the minority. Reason given for this is that, one day, that opinion may be the one we need to answer a question. I see this as an early form of free speech.
      I hope your search leads you to a happy and comfortable life. G-d Bless you and do well.

  4. Annias Bell says:

    Thank you YourPhariseefriend & Yechiel,
    I will continue on this journey. All I ever wanted was the truth. I agree that we should start by seeking what we all have in common and let that be a starting point for discussion. I will do my best, but it is hard. Just the other day, I saw a group of pasters discussing the virtues of the so called “new covenant” with the church over the, as they put it, old covenant with Israel. I wanted to tell my wife how wrong those pastors are, and that G-ds convenant with Israel has never been voided. However, I retrained myself because this would have led to an argument. It took some time for me to see this, so I must be patient with my family and friends. I don’t want to be the guy with a religious bat, hitting people on the head with scriptures. I will make myself available, so that when questions arise, I will with humility be able to answer by giving this web site and let G-d do the rest.
    May G-d bless you all,

    • hyechiel says:

      Dear Annias Bell;
      Thank you for your responce. We all need to learn patience, and it is hard for some. But the important thing is this; the conversation is not between religioins, it is between G-d and you. You know where you are, walk that path the best you can, and He shall take care of the rest, and bless you for it.

      • Annias Bell says:

        Thank you Hyechiel,
        I will do that. I just discovered this site about a month ago, and I have learned so much from it. Please continue the postings.
        May G-d continue to bless us all on our journey.

  5. Yedidiah says:

    Some 2 edged swords. A spiritual people spiritually “blind”? A person’s or “a people’s” relationship with God is between God and them and other people & them. Watch what you try to bring asunder. But cults can be bad and teshuva or return to your roots can be good and in both cases outside help can be helpful. But what people intend for “evil” (incorrectly using “blindness” as an insult) try to turn it around for the good. Check your dictionary. Neutralize their words or turn the insult around on them.

    For instance, most definitions of a veil do not have a negative connotation. Seldom is a vail opaque, it is usually translucent or transparent material worn over the face for concealment, for protection from the elements, or to enhance the appearance. It is usually designed so one easily can see through it. So one can see out, and others not in. The closer to the eye, the less distortion. It can be a “shield” or it can be a shade to protect the eyes from the harmful effects of the sun, which effects can temporarily disable your sight or permanently damage it. It can hide “the true nature” of the wearer, so it is the one who is “unveiled” whose sight is more distorted. It separates (like the people who God separated from the “ways of the world”) and it decorates. God can “see in” and that is what really matters.

    • Yedidiah says:

      The 2nd line should have read “…relationship with God is between God and them, not between other people and them.”

  6. melissa33774 says:

    Can I tell you how much this drives me crazy???? I used to be involved in the Messianic movement. People would ask me why I left, and after giving them good, sound reasons I always hear “If you were truly saved you would understand; the veil would be lifted from your eyes.” Whenever I bring up a point that doesn’t fit into their dogma, that they can’t refute, it’s the same excuse every time! How convenient! (Oh and usually followed by, “I’ll pray that Jesus gives you wisdom and understanding”)!

    It is so sad that people do not use reason and intellect, as if that’s a bad thing because it undermines “faith”.

    • Dear melissa;
      Faith, if it is true, cannot be undermined by reason. G-d told us to use our brains to find the truth, and we propmised that we would do, and we would learn. The Jewish people have seen our purpose with life, and adherence to Him, strengthen by knowledge. Other aiths have tried the opposite way, and now see large looses to their numbers. So G-d, once again, is proven right, as are you. GBY and happy Purim.

      • melissa33774 says:

        You’re right Yechiel, when we do what Hashem asks of us because He tells us to and no other reason, we develop a relationship with Him. And through that relationship then we can gain wisdom and understanding. Chag sameach!

  7. melissa33774 says:

    The other thing that drives me crazy is when they use verses from the Christian bible to support their arguments, just as in the above exchange:

    “Your email confirms to me exactly what Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3. The veil is over your heart when you read Torah.”

    Do they not understand that I don’t believe their scriptures to begin with, so their references are meaningless?

    • hyechiel says:

      Dear melissa33774;
      Oh, yes, they know very well that you do not believe their point of view. That is why they atack us with their verses, but cannot reply to us, or if they do, with something off the wall which means nothing. See my review of the RPP review of a missionanic book, to have some idea; they call in only the chorior-those of us outside of their chrior are ot good enough for them, until the person accepts their point of view.
      GBY and keep up the good work.

      • melissa33774 says:

        I find there are two types of leaders in the Jesus movement. There are the traditional Pastor type leader who preaches to a primarily Gentile audience. These Pastors have it pretty easy because they don’t face questions and opposition from their congregants. A generalization I have found is that the Gentile follower has simple faith in his Bible and his teacher, and all is right with the world.

        Then there is another type of leader who is preaching to a Jewish oriented crowd. These leaders are more savvy and try to appear more scholarly for, I believe, for three reasons. First of all, they are speaking to a tougher crowd. It is much more difficult to get a Jew to believe in Jesus than a Gentile, with very good reason. Secondly, they are also going to face more opposition from anti-missionaries and therefore need to defend their position. Thirdly, and most importantly (I believe), is that it takes a whole lot of convincing even to themselves to believe what they they profess to believe! (I am quite sure there is not a single Jew who can actually bow down to an idol. It is against our spiritual makeup. Therefore there needs to be a lot more weight behind their claims in order to rationalize their faith). So this is where we find all kinds of scholarly works from people who try to sound highly educated, in an attempt to fill the gaps.

        However, in the end, when push comes to shove, each of these leaders I have described always fall back on the “You need to have faith in order to believe” excuse. As I told a (Jewish Messianic) friend of mine, to believe that an entire generation of over 2.5 million men, women and children all heard and saw the voice of Hashem together, all at the same time, and as a result, radically changed their lives to a very demanding lifestyle, for generations and generations, does not take a whole lot of faith. To believe that G-d would appear to just a handful of people, clothed in a human body, in an unverifiable fashion, in order to send a message of equal or even greater importance to the world (after all, an eternity of Heaven or Hell is pretty important!)… well, yes, that takes a whole lot of faith! I’d say a whole lot more than a mustard seed!

  8. hyechiel says:

    Dear Friends;
    I just looked up, from my e-mail. a post from Rosh Pine Project. They are advocating a book on the messianic movement, Introduction to Messianic Judaism: Edited by David Rudolph and Joel Willitts. In reading the review, I noticed something very interesting, but not surprising; these three items listed as what the book pertains to;

    Part I

    The first part of the book contains thirteen articles written by leading leaders and thinkers from within our movement, on a variety of topics — from the history of Messianic Judaism to Messianic Jews in the land of Israel. The voices also reflect a variety of perspectives, including positions within the mainstream congregational movement, the missions side of the movement, as well as representation from Israel.

    Part II

    The first part really does a great job providing the contours and outline of the Messianic Jewish movement from an insider perspective. The second part of the book, which I find pretty exciting, contains articles from leading Christian thinkers on Messianic Judaism … including some of the most acclaimed Bible and Theological scholars of our day. These scholars include the likes of Richard Bauckham, R. Kendall Soulen, Markus Bockmuehl, Douglas Harink, etc.

    Part III

    The final part of the book, written by Christian scholar, Dr. Joel Willitts, provides an informative summary of the chapters, we well as presents a compelling conclusion.

    Note: the three participants are Apostate, Christian and Christian. The comments and article, according to the poster, are only from those who support an unJudaian form of thought and thinking, not any impute as far as they shared from those who hold to a Jewish/Kosher view of scriptures and practice.
    I have no problem with Christians and apostates sharing their view, but where the author of this book review seemed to missed the mark is that the tradition of Judaism, which cannot accept a none existing messiah. All of them believe the messiah has arrived, dissipate the physical and spiritual evidence to the contrary.
    I encourage you to read the book, but remember, you also have the right and freedom to examine the evidence, yourself. From this, you may come to a more mature idea of whether the messiah has or has not arrived, and your part dealing with your faith and beliefs.

  9. hyechiel says:

    Dear Friends;
    Wait long enough, and the enimy shall provide the information why they are the enimy!
    Read below, to see how much respect they have for themselves, and Judaism/G-d’s Commandments, as a whole.

    Pigs become kosher when death and evil are defeated – but should Messianic Jews eat pork?
    by Rosh Pine Project/Messianic post.
    I greatly respect Messianic Jews who decide to eat kosher, either as a show of solidarity with their people, a sign of respect to their religion or the family, or as a deep religious conviction.
    I think it’s a noble decision, but I can also see reasons for Messianic Jews to decide to eat pork.
    For Messianic Jews living in the light of Yeshua’s victory on the cross, we are living in a new reality. It is not un-Jewish to divide time into a period in which pigs are treif, and another period in which pigs are kosher.
    G-d never ssaid “You do as I say, when you want to!” There is not one verse in the Tanach that says if you can, but do not want to. Only exceptioin is when it is humanly immpossible to do so. Eating pork is symbolic throughout the centuries of separating a Jew from his heritage, to turn him against G-d. But for those who have, there is T’Shuvah, and the key to your salvation.

    • naaria says:

      One controversy within the MJ community is that many who were not born or raised Jewish are often more “Torah observant”, in some “synagogues”, than are many who were “born Jewish” (often the minority of the membership). And yet, the “non-Jews grafted in”, often feel they are treated as “2nd class members” (like an embarrassment hindering the missionizing of Jews). I seen one congregation which was more evangelical, more “fundamentalist” or “Christian” than many churches.

      • naaria says:

        “The veil” may cover the eyes of “Messianic believers of Yeshua” as well. Mind you, he is primarily writing about “mandatory observance” and so-called “legalism”, but this is a view from a MJ follower of Yeshua: “The greatest threat to the Messianic Jewish (Hebrew Christian) Movement in the 21st Century is the de-spiritualization of it’s ranks by legalism in the form of mandatory Torah observance. I believe the reason for “Torah observant legalism” overtaking the “gospel of grace” is from unbiblical compromise and conformation to a false spirit of religiosity among Messianic Jewish leaders.” (from “Dismantling Legalism In the Messianic Jewish Movement Today”, by Marshall Beeber at

        • hyechiel says:

          Dear Frtiends;
          Fact is what I go by. For the past two thousands years, there has been more ‘grace” from the Torah, and more “Torah” from the Gospel.
          One example is to take a nose count of ow many sects Christianity has.
          Now, which ones do YOU accept as Christian? get my drift?
          In Judaism, we argue a lot, yes, but very few Orthodox Jews would even think of excluding a Reform Jew, as not Kosher. problem comes in when you have incompetant “Conversions” and then expect the Rabbinet of Israel to say; OK. No nation should allow none legal immigration; look at the good ‘ol USA! So we do what we can to help, but G-d’s way comes first.
          You all accept each other by the simple formula; any one who accepts jesus and his eachings is Christian.
          Do so and I will have more respect for you. After all, this is the formula you have been espousing for centuries, so accept your own way, then see what you have to share.
          Remember; sharing, if right, goes both ways. If blocked one way, it is not going to work. I share that all who accept G-d, born and converted Jews, and outside of being Jewish, Gentiles who accept His Seven Laws; they are Noahide should be equally respected. Chrisastians who accept His 7 are included, as are people of all faiths.

      • hyechiel says:

        Dear naaria;
        On the way Christians who join MJ congregatioins are treated? Maturity and education is taking care of this issue, as many turn to Torah as a true foundation for their lives. Why thousands find G-d as Noahide and convertees to Judaism.

        • naaria says:

          That was part of my comment to bring up or remind others of their “intra-faith” conflicts and to be less judgmental of those outside of their faith community. You know that if there are thousands of different denominations, you can suspect there are some fundamental problems that are largely not addressed by the churches or their leaders. It is not as simple as some people try to make it. There is often an over-simplification of or a distorted view of the history of the church or of the NT text as well. When you hear someone in your family or workplace or place of worship say “I was once Catholic, but now I’m Christian”, you got to wonder “where their head is at”. Or, when they say “those people (many different types of “believers” or religious” people) aren’t or weren’t “real Christians”, you have to ask them what their definition of a “real Christian” is. Usually both sides of the issue will tell you they are the “real Christians”, they are of the “true church”, they are the truly the “humble, Godly believers”. When you show them where they are similar, while they are showing you “how they differ”, they usually wind up insulting you and calling you a “liar” although you show them facts or “of the devil” when you ask them “where is their love” or “why can’t you get along with your brothers & sisters in the Lord”? “”. I have seen & know why some Christians have “left the church” and become MJ’s to “deepen their relationship with Jesus-Yeshua”. And I know some of the reasons they get frustrated. I heard Sunday after Sunday the” real reasons” why we were studying the Hebraic Roots of the church and what the real Israel will look like in the future. Don’t get me wrong, I am part of inter-faith activities or community as well. My former pastor & teacher is well respected and loved by several in the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis in the U.S. and in Israel.

          But, if some Christians can believe sincerely that other “sincere, humble, & religious Christians” are “of the devil” or that MJ’s can be “more than quite” critical of other MJ’s because of the “veil”, then you might begin to understand how some have viewed “the veil over of the eyes” of those who do not believe in Yeshua-Jesus, in particular those Jews who are quite familiar with the NT and now see even less reason to convert than before when they were simply just ignorant. Respect for the faith of others starts with education and from within.

          • naaria says:

            If it is not obvious, I am on the “side of the fence” that believes that first Christians need to be more respectful of other Christians. And then, be more respectful of Jews & understand that Christianity (no matter how one sees or what one believes about the “man from ‘Nazareth'”, whether he be called Jesus, Yeshua, Iesous, Yahushua, etc), is a different religion from “Judaism”. And, that should include a more formal recognition of “the 7 laws” or or placing them on a level similar to that of the “10 Commandments”. If that leads some to become “Noachides” or to seek conversion to Judaism (Reform, Orthodox, or whatever), so much the better. If it leads to Jews returning to Judaism, thank God.

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Naaria;
            My prayer is that in the near future, all humans shall come to rspect all humans.
            Is this not what the same G-d we seek asks of us?

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Naaria;
            You paul and i have had a converstion on tis blog. I think we covred a lot of territory. The “veil” works two ways; to conciel what is there, and to retain what one has.
            Then, there are those who do not understand what they have, but have been told they are better tham…
            I had a work partner with whom I got along very well. So when Isael went into lebbanon to rescue the Christians, i asked him for his opinion why the USA or the EU did nothing but talk. “They are not the right kind of Christians!”
            i said nothing-what good would it have done. But I also have been bothered by un-christian expressions of Protestant against Catholics. Luther and his cohorts brought into Protestism many Catholic ideal, butthey did not teach respect for their fellow Christians. I do not agree with Reform on many issues, Kariates on not accepeting the talmud and other items; but they are just as Jewish as I am, and as deserving of respect. That is, if i believe what G-d told us.
            Jesus taught, through the Paridal of the Good Sameritan, to have respect for all.
            It is what Torah teaches, and why we accept Noahides as sanctified and sacred as Jews. Having a difference of opinion, regardless how well grounded you are in your faith is what makes our world go around. Why the minority opinion in the Talmud remains; how do we not know that one day, that solution or idea may be the one we need.
            We do not have a problem with other faiths, just behavior which is harmful to self or others. Why G-d taught us, through the Prophets.
            The sun raises, the sun sets, but the world goes on.
            Or, for a Christian; “Do unto others that which you would want done unto thyself.”
            They can know and preach Tanach and Gospel all day, but if the person has hatred in his heart, G-d shall not accept him.
            So I say to the missionaries, if you love G-d as He is, love His people as He made us.
            Naaria, I mean all who believe in or know that there is a G-d.

  10. melissa33774 says:

    Naaria, your point is very true and very ironic at the same time. When my husband and I were in the MJ movement many, many years ago, the running joke was that we always knew who the non-Jews were because they looked more Jewish than the Jews! And yes, many of the Jewish membership felt put off by that. We knew it just didn’t feel right. While they all preach about being “one in Messiah, Jew and Gentile” and how the “church” was “grafted in”, there was still this huge debate among the leadership on whether Gentile followers should be allowed to wear a tallit (Jewish prayer shawls), tzitzis (fringes), etc.

    To me it just shows that deep in our neshamas, our Jewish souls, we know that this “one in Messiah, Jew and Gentile” concept is just plain wishful thinking. Judaism teaches that the Jewish nation has a mission to fulfill which includes certain obligations as prescribed by Torah, while the Gentile nations have a different mission which does not include these obligations. Is it “legalism”? Absolutely. Is it “despiritualization”? Quite the contrary. There is nothing more spiritually fulfilling for a Jew than to fulfill G-d’s will by keeping Torah and Mitzvos (i.e., “the Law”), and for a Gentile who follows the 7 Mitzvos of Noach (the 7 Noahide Laws).

    I seriously doubt that the majority of 1st century Jews actually spoke of the law as a “burden”. That is a foreign concept to the Jew. While living a G-dly life is demanding for a Jew, “Mitzvah observance gives the promise of living an enlightened and meaningful existence. The greatest question ever asked is ‘What is the purpose of life’ The Torah explains that the purpose of human existence is to achieve closeness to God. This is attained via living in accordance with the 613 commandments because each mitzvah, in its own unique way, contains the means for man to forge a relationship with God”.


    Imagine a parent who has two children. One child is continually shirking his responsibilities, while the other child cheerfully clears the table, takes out the garbage and cleans his room. As parents we love both children, but the child who does what he is asked forms a closer bond with his parents through carrying out the rules of the household. The child who does not fulfill his responsibilities distances himself from his parents by virtue of non-compliance.

    At the same time, different children might have different responsibilities assigned to each of them. If one son tries to convince his brother that his own chores are better so he needs to do them as well, the result is that there are a whole bunch of jobs that don’t get done and the household does not run smoothly. So it is with the Jew and the Gentile. We each have our jobs to do in order to make the world run smoothly. And when we each do our jobs, we build a closer relationship with G-d and partner with Him in creating a spiritually enlightened world, a world that exists in perfect harmony with His own will.

    I can’t think of anything more spiritually fulfilling than partnering with G-d in making the world the kind of place that He intended it to be!

  11. melissa33774 says:

    One more thought that exposes the hypocrisy of the Messianic doctrine, is that many MJ congregations make Havdalah after Shabbat on Saturday night. The part that I find quite amusing is that included in the prayers of Havdalah is “Baruch atah H’… hamavdil ben kodesh l’chol, ben ohr l’choshech, ben Yisrael la’amim…” Blessed are You Hashem… Who makes a distinction between the sacred and profane, between light and darkness, between Israel and the nations…

    What is the logic in blessing Hashem for making a distinction between Israel and the nations, and at the same time preach “We are one in Messiah, Jew and Gentile”? Do they believe what they are saying or do they merely throw in some Hebrew prayers to try and dress up Christian doctrine in order to appear Jewish?

  12. Rabbi Stuart says:

    As soon as Christianity makes the claim that the veil is only lifted upon accepting jesus, they are admitting that their theology of a dying/saving pagan man/god is not an inherent meaning of the TaNaCH. If I have to be a Christian to see jesus on the pages of my TaNaCH, then he isn’t there except through the lenses of their Christianity-colored glasses.

    • Annias Bell says:

      Rabbi Stuart,

      You are correct. I was not able to understand anything from TaNaCH as long as I excepted the Christian books as authorative writing, which they are not. That is why Paul in his commentaries say Torah has been done away with and replaced by grace and believing in Jesus human sacrifice. Hence, anyone still following TaNaCH has a veil over their eyes.

      Man, I’m ashamed I believed that stuff all these years.

      Thank you Rabbi for bringing clarity on whst is written in TaNaCH.

  13. Eliyah says:

    True Christianity is found in the Orthodox Church not in the many sects. I want you to correctly quote Tehilim 147:19 : “He tells His words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel.”
    not what you distorted: ‘God gave the Torah to the Jewish people and to them alone’ – (Psalm 147:19)
    He talks about Israel not Yehudah. There is 2 Houses: House Yehudah (Jewish people) & House Israel (Children of Israel not Jewish). In the End both Houses will be one like Ezekiel prophesied in 37:16-28 :”And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write upon it, ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel his companions’; and take one stick and write upon it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’ And bring them close, one to the other into one stick, and they shall be one in your hand”… “And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.”…
    “And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.”

    The Messiah of Israel did not come for the tsadik but for the lost sheep of Israel dispersed away. You clearly did not understand the Purpose nor realize the necessity of the Orthodox Church who like in the Ark in the Flood is protecting all humanity including the House of Israel against the waters of Destruction. Working to the reunification of both Houses is a work of the Holy One. Dividing people and making get out of the Ark is a work of impiety which will cost you in the other world…


    • Dina says:

      Eliyah, Jesus could not possibly be the messiah because he did not accomplish anything the prophets foretold would occur with the advent of the messiah (i.e., universal peace, universal knowledge of God, the cessation of Israel’s oppression by her enemies, the rebuilding of the Third Temple and the restoration of the sacrificial system, the ingathering of the exiles, etc.). Furthermore, he never ruled over Israel as king, which is literally what the messiah is anointed to do.

      Other problems include the Christian definition of messiah, which is entirely unbiblical, and that is that the death of a sinless human being is needed to atone for sin, and that one’s sin is not atoned for unless one confesses belief in this human; also that one cannot have a direct relationship with God without this intermediary. These foreign ideas constitute idolatry in Judaism, especially the concept that a human being is actually God.

      That is why for 2000 years the Jews have testified at great personal cost that there is one God and one God only, and that Jesus was a false messiah and a false prophet.

      • Eliyah says:

        Erev tov Dina! Shalom to you and all!

        The mandate of the Messiah here Yahshuo was to gathered the lost sheep of Israel lost in the pagan nations. This process is not magical but is a work of the Holy One which was accomplished in the Ark of the Orthodox Church. House Israel is not Jewish only House Yehudah is. That is why we speak of 2 Houses but in the End both Houses will be one… see Ezekiel 37

        The era of animal sacrifices is finished and abrogated (proof being is that 1949 years have past without any animal sacrifices in a Temple, also Ezekiel prophecy of a 3rd Temple with animal sacrifices is to be taken in a spiritual sense where animals offered represent the offering of people of hearts converting to the faith… ) for since the coming of the Innocent Lamb who was crucified on the Altar of the Cross, Risen from the dead to whom in his divine flesh resurrected & divine blood we confess in all Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church to be the perpetual sacrifice who transforms us in the divine nature of Him the Messiah the Son to be sons of the Holy One. Sons in the Son to the Glory of EL Almighty Father Creator of all things visible and invisible…

        The Messiah is divine for He is the Word the Dabar Elohim the Son of the Father who took our form like in the time of Abraham before the destruction of Sodom. See Genesis 18:
        “1Then YHWH appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “Adonai, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant…”

        He was present in the Garden, he was present on Mount Sinai… Being master of Time and Space his Humanity completely divine by virtue of the Holy Incarnation make us able to be princes of the other world and light to the nations. The Messiah being the 1st Resurrected from the dead and because of his Substitution for our Sins made us worthy to call upon the Holy One and say Father who are in the Heavens Hallowed be thy Name, thy Kingdom come, that will be done on Earth as it is in the Heavens… In the time of Moshe all Israel were very afraid in this manner being in a state of mind of slavery and being not spiritual in mindset. The long Education of the Holy One has made us progress toward a civilization where people will seek true love instead of power & war… Where the old serpent mind will let place to the pure and holy mindset of the Messiah…
        Marana Tha!! The yeast of the Faith is now ready to make rise Humanity…

        For this dabar: “19 Then they said to Moshe, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not Elohim speak with us, lest we die.” Exodus 20:19

        Will let place to this dabar: “4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.”

        • Dina says:

          Con, it’s the same guy. He writes like English is not his first language, and I remember he was French speaking.

          Please forgive my rudeness, Eliyah. If you are who I think you are, we’ve been over this ground before, and I think it’s pointless to go over it again.

          • Eliyah says:

            Boker tov Dina! Shalom to all!

            For as a body needs blood to be alive… Scriptures needs the Ruah Hakodesh to be alive and interpreted in the way of true righteousness & life… No one can enter the Heavens & Paradise without passing through the door which is the Messiah Yahshuo the Son of EL the Living. Out of Love I can give you this testimony for the first fruit of the Resurrection of Passover is ready to be harvested and all weed will be burned…

            As in the time of Noah we needed an ark to be saved… Now also we need one: The Orthodox Church who is the Ark in which Israel is saved and in the end where even house Yehudah will be reunited in the Messiah:

            “But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.” Isaiah 53

            Jews who believe that Yahushuo is the Messiah are also rejected by those who slander us and ridicule us. But the prostitute will be eaten with fire by the power of the hand that the Holy One is preparing… Be prepared! Only those who follow the Holy One will be preserved for the Hour coming… The Holy Blood of the Lamb protect us from the angel of death… Like in the time of Moshe like in our present time… For Life is in the Blood!! And the houses to be protected are our bodies & souls…

  14. Concerned Reader says:

    Dina, this guy is not interested in dialogue. Might as well just ignore him. Actually sounds like E lion. Remember him?

  15. Nawal morcos says:

    I believeIn bothOldAndNew Testment as an integrity to complete each other and in order to understand them properly you should be guided by the holy spirit which give you divine understanding for the versions and preditctions ofGod

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