Messiah – Letter and Spirit
The prophets of the Jewish Scriptures pointed mankind to a glorious future. They spoke about a future of peace and harmony, blessing and happiness together with a universal submission to God. And the prophets spoke about a Davidic king who will rule that utopian world.
The Christian religion is built on the belief that this king described by the Jewish prophets is actually one Jesus of Nazareth. The various Christian denominations have developed sophisticated theological lines of reasoning to justify their belief.
Jews who maintain loyalty to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob categorically reject the Christian claim.
There are two sides to this Jewish rejection of the Christian position. On the one hand, the Christian claim for Jesus has no basis in the letter of the Jewish Scriptures. Jesus did not fulfill one Messianic prophecy. The letter of the Bible does not allow the Jewish people to accept the claims of the Church (see https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/of-whom-speaketh-the-prophet/ ).
But this is only one side of Israel’s rejection of the Church’s claims for Jesus. Far more significant is the fact that the Messianic claims of the Church represent the very antithesis of the spirit of the prophetic hope for Messiah. This is not merely a matter of failing to conform to one specific prediction or another. The Christian position stands in direct opposition to the heart and soul of the prophetic concept of Messiah. The entire thrust of the Messiah of Scripture refutes the claims of the Church.
What is the spirit of the Messianic hope of the prophets? What is the spiritual purpose of the Messiah and what is the direction of his government?
The prophets made it abundantly clear that the end-purpose of history is that all mankind recognize and accept the absolute sovereignty of God. This recognition is the pinnacle of human achievement. The greatest success that an individual can achieve is complete submission to the authority of God and this is also the greatest success that human society as a whole can hope to achieve. And the prophets taught that humanity will ultimately attain this goal. There will yet come a day when every man woman and child that lives on this earth will stand together in joyous submission before the One God who Created us all.
The purpose of the Messiah is to lead humanity in this submission to God. In order to lead people in submission the Messiah will exemplify humility before God. As his ancestor David before him, the Messiah will express his own helplessness and poverty before God. The Davidic King will inspire all of mankind to join him in recognizing that every facet of existence a loving gift from God. The absolute submission towards God that abides in the heart of the Messiah will move all of mankind to bend their own hearts in acceptance of God’s sovereignty.
A man who emphasizes not his own poverty before God but rather his alleged superiority over other people is not a leader of submission. A man who draws attention to the supposed divide that separates him from other people is not going to teach mankind that everyone is equally indebted to God. A man who justifies devotion to himself on the basis of qualities that he allegedly possesses is not going to inspire people to recognize that finite existence possesses nothing before God. A man whose heart is facing humanity in demand of their worship cannot exemplify humility before the One who created the hearts of all men. Such a man is not a leader of submission to God; he is a leader of rebellion against God.
The real Messiah will not seek people’s worship and devotion; he will teach people that their hearts already belong to God. The real Messiah will point to the all-encompassing power of God; he will not preach about the supposed inability of God to forgive sin. The real Messiah will speak the praises of God with joy and enthusiasm; he will not speak about his own praises. The real Messiah will draw attention to his own utter helplessness before God; he will not obfuscate that truth with veiled claims to divinity. The real Messiah will be pained that people do not recognize that their very existence belongs to God, he will not rage when people do not acknowledge their “need” for his own services.
The Christian claim for the alleged Messiah-ship of Jesus is the direct opposite of everything the prophets taught us to hope for. This is not merely a matter of failing to conform to the letter of the Law. The Christian claim for Jesus stands in direct conflict with the spirit, the heart and the soul of the Messianic message of the Jewish Bible.
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Hello
Could someone please show me a Messianic prophecy that Jesus has, to date failed.
X
Paul,
More obviously, he hasn’t fulfilled even one.
Jim
Paul, you’ve been following this blog for quite a while and you don’t know the answer to that question? That means you come her to preach but not to listen. How do you expect to reach us if you won’t even listen to what we have to say?
Hi all
I was hoping for a fresh start with the blog just posted. When I see a fresh post, I assume that someone wishes to re-debate the said subject. Yes of course the topic has been posted many times before. When the topic has been re posted it raises the question why re post?
Not to worry. My mistake.
According to traditional Judaism, Jesus has not reestablished the temple service, purified or reestablished the levitical priesthood, or reestablished the observance of the commandments of Moses as in days past. (Malachi 3:3, and read all the rest of Malachi and also Jeremiah 31.) Jeremiah and the rest of scripture also says that G-d will never abandon his people, no matter how many and deep their sins. G-d has the ability to forgive sin without blood. (Genesis 4:7 Psalm 51, Ezekiel) Remember also that G-d forgave Israel in Daniel’s day by redeeming them through Cyrus when they had no temple, and no sacrifices to give, but only their prayers and contrition for their past sins. This means replacement theology is wrong, and necessitating atonement by blood the way Anselm and Augustine meant is unscriptural. Jesus was not a vaccine, even he requires Christians to do certain things.
Jesus also has not reestablished the literal kingdom of Israel in the holy land by leading all of the people back into the land. Scripture doesn’t state clearly that the messiah has to come twice either, so Jews therefore believe that he will accomplish the complete redemption in his lifetime, in the same way that Moses accomplished the mission of Israel’s freedom from Egypt in his one lifetime.
That’s a good answer, Con :)!
Hello.
Traditional Judaism is not the same of The Mossic Law though. God clearly gave the Law, writings and prophets as per scripture. What scripture are you using that states Israel are to follow Traditional Judaism?
However, your first point about not reestablishing the temple service. The Christian NT also says that Jesus has not yet reestablished the temple service. If the Prophecy is still future, how can it
be claimed to be false?
Because Paul, anyone can say about any prophesy, “I’ll get it on the next go round.” Although it could be argued that we must be on a higher level of holiness in order for Christ to come, so that we are ready for him rather. Scripture doesn’t say anywhere that redemption comes without effort, so we could say your reading is possible.
Paul,
One does not accept a writing because the writing itself says it is true. This should be self-explanatory.
Jim
Self-evident, rather.
Paul,
Your question about the failed prophecies of Jesus is a good starting point to examine the Church’s claims regarding the Messiahship of Jesus. There are two facts that must be observed. One is that any clear Messianic prophecy, for example that a king from the line of Jesse would rule in Israel during a time of peace when God is universally acknowledged, must be put off. Jesus hasn’t fulfilled them. The Church says, “Jesus hasn’t fulfilled them, yet.” The second fact to be observed is that the Church had to invent prophecies to apply to Jesus, because any clear Messianic prophecy was not fulfilled in his time. This is an implicit admission that Jesus does not fulfill the Messianic prophecies.
Consider how Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled Isaiah 7.14. Nothing in the text lets one no that it is a Messianic prophecy, and in fact it is not. But Matthew needed something that he could apply to Jesus, so he tore Isaiah 7.14 out of context and altered a few words. Ignoring the issue of the word “virgin,” Matthew found it necessary to alter the text, which says that the mother would name the child Immanuel, and said that “they” would call him Immanuel. Who are they? The Church, I suppose. He also omitted the second part of the prophecy regarding the child eating curds and honey, probably because they cannot be applied to Jesus in any way. The fact that Matthew had to truncate and alter the prophecy to apply it to Jesus is proof that he couldn’t find a prophecy that did apply to Jesus. Jesus clearly didn’t fulfill Isaiah 7.14, because his mother didn’t name him Immanuel.
Nor did he fulfill Hosea 11.1, but that doesn’t stop Matthew. Matthew truncates that too. The verse is clearly referring to the nation of Israel and the Exodus. God calls them His son. Matthew misapplies it to Jesus. The fact that he could not find an actual prophecy about the Messiah being called out of Egypt is proof that one doesn’t exist. If he had a better one he would have used it.
Just as a glance at the context of the two preceding “prophecies” shows that they are not Messianic, so does a look at Psalm 41. In Psalm 41, the narrator admits that he is a sinner. But John puts this Psalm in the mouth of Jesus to foretell his betrayal (13.18). Clearly Christians do not hold that Jesus sinned, so the Psalm cannot be applied to Jesus. Like the other “prophecies,” the fact that the Church could not find a clear prophecy about the Messiah being betrayed but had to read it into a Psalm (not about the Messiah) is a clear proof that they don’t have one.
I can pull out false prophecy after false prophecy, but it isn’t necessary, I hope. The fact that the Church had to turn to hidden “prophecies,” misquoting them and removing them from their context, essentially inventing them, is a strong argument against Jesus fulfilling any substantial prophecies. The fact that they continue to find new “prophecies” that apply to him when the context is ignored shows that Jesus did not fulfill any Messianic prophecies. If he had fulfilled Messianic prophecies, the Church would not have to invent them. And they would not have to appeal to a “second coming,” at which time he would fulfill the clearly delineated Messianic prophecies.
Jim
Allow me to add that Jesus is not even from the line of Jesse! According to Christians he had no earthly father and thus could not be descended from David on his father’s side. His mother’s genealogy is irrelevant because tribal affiliation passes through the father only.
According to Jews, no one knows who his father was. And if it wasn’t Joseph, that’s bad news for Jesus, because an illegitimate child may not enter the congregation of the Lord, let alone be the Messiah (Deuteronomy 23:2).
I’m waiting for a Christian to answer me on the 15-generation gap between the genealogies of Matthew and Luke, which puts Jesus into two different time periods 300 years apart if you count 20 years per generation.
According to Christians who try to get around the conflicting genealogies by saying that one of them is Mary’s, then Joseph would be 300 years older than Mary!
So, Paul, what do you say?
Hello Jim
Of course its obvious that Jesus was called Jesus, well Yeshua. The name Emmanuel is obviously a name regarding a meaning due to condition relating to His office, not a name someone would use to speak to one.
“God with us” is a perefect name and Messianic fulfilled prophecy according to John ch 1 v 14. The Name refers to His position. King David wasnt called a king until he was appointed king. His father didnt call him king David when he was tending sheep as a shepherd. So Messiah wasnt called Emmanuel until He was born.
Im sure Billy the Kid was actually called William Henry McCarty, or William the conquer was actually called William the 2nd King of England.
Can you verify the diet that Jesus ate? Unless He ate something contrary to the Law, I dont see any revelance? Anyway the curds and honey reference is to do with discerning good from evil as one grows. The text points to a Miracle birth, Deity, discerment, physical and spiritual growth in the human condition by a certain person.
Paul,
Emmanuel isn’t a title. Isaiah says that the mother will name her child “Emmanuel”. Jesus’ mother did not name him that. Matthew changed the wording of the prophecy to “they” shall name him Emmanuel, because that makes it sound like a title. But it isn’t a title. It does not equate to the word “king”. The Church has practiced a deception upon you. Moreover, Emmanuel is no more perfect a name than Isaiah, Jeremiah, Joshua, Elijah, or the host of other names that testify to God in some way.
Regarding the curds and honey, even if Jesus ate them they would have nothing to do with the prophecy. Read it to understand.
Jim
Hi Jim
keeping this in my view of context Mary Did name her son Emmanuel, and many otheres who believed in Him. Yes I agree the very words ” I name this child Emmanuel” were never used, and Jesus name badge in His clothes did not say Emmanuel. But its the application of the name, which is used.
Mary was clearly told by the angel who this child was, where He was coming from, What His role is etc. Mary was clearly told that this child is, The Holy One, who will be called the Son of God. etc.
Luke gives all these details, especially Luke ch 2 v 21.
Also vs 22- 38 are worth another read.
Its just keeping the theme in jewish thinking. Names are given with meaning. Isaac was so called because of his mothers laughing, Isaac never laughed though,, I dont say that Genisis is a false representation, that would be obsurd. However if I took your stance I would be challenging Genisis.
Application.
Paul,
Let us consider the case of Isaac, because we will learn from it a couple things:
1. Isaac was actually named “Isaac”. A name is not a title.
2. Isaac’s name, referring to laughter, had nothing to do with his nature, as you point out. So with the name: “Emmanuel” is not to tell us the nature of the child, but is an assurance to Ahaz that God is not going to allow Jerusalem to fall at that time.
______
I feel it necessary to point out that you are ignoring two things. One, the context of Isaiah has nothing to do with the Messiah. The misapplication by Matthew is only necessary because Matthew does not have a legitimate prophecy regarding the Messiah’s birth to which he can appeal.
The second thing you are ignoring is that Matthew has already conceded my argument. He changed the pronoun in Isaiah 7.14 from “she” to “they”. This change is an admission that it has nothing to do with Jesus. If God had meant to say that people will recognize the god-man in their midst, he could have conveyed that information. Instead, in giving a sign to Ahaz, he says that the mother of the child will name him Emmanuel. This is not an appellative regarding the nature of the child. The child is being named to give assurance that God is with Judah. Matthew changed the “she” to a “they” because it gives the impression then that “Emmanuel” is a title. He has practiced a deception. (Or he was fooled by someone prior to him due to his own ignorance.)
Do not lose sight of the point. The point is that Matthew had to alter texts to make them appear Messianic. You asked what Messianic prophecies Jesus failed to fulfill. Now the Church concedes that Jesus has not fulfilled the commonly understood Messianic prophecies. They only argue that he will. The Church also argues that Jesus fulfilled some Messianic prophecies in his first coming. These first prophecies, however, are fabrications. They have nothing to do with the Messiah. The fact that the NT had to strip these prophecies from the context and even change the wording is an admission that they could find no Messianic prophecies that he fulfilled the first time. This is what necessitates the invention of Messianic prophecies from passages that had nothing to do with the Messiah, and are frequently not even predictive.
Because the Church can find no legitimate prophecies that Jesus fulfilled the first time, then one is within his rights to say that he isn’t likely to be coming back a second time to fulfill “the rest”. Part of the Church’s argument does go something like this: “Jesus fulfilled the first prophecies, so we can rely on the fact that he’ll fulfill the later prophecies.” Since one can examine those prophecies and see that not only did Jesus not fulfill them, they were not Messianic, they are no indicators that he will come back to fulfill the rest. One missionary called those prophecies a “down payment”. But as down payments go, these prophecies are like receiving counterfeit money. I do not trust the one who pays in counterfeit money to give the rest of what he owes me at a later date.
Jim
Paul,
I hope you understand that I am not saying that Isaiah 7.14 is a Messianic prophecy but Jesus did not fulfill it. Jesus did not fulfill it; that is true. But it is also not a Messianic prophecy. It is about two kings invading Judah. The child is promised to eat curds and honey before he knows to choose the good and refuse the evil, because the two kings who are a threat will no longer be a threat. This has nothing to do with the Messiah. Nor would it apply 600 years later, during the time of Jesus. The whole point is that this prophecy, which is not Messianic, had to be abused by the Church so that they could have something for Jesus to fulfill. He did not fulfill any of the openly Messianic prophecies, so the NT authors altered scripture to make it appear Messianic. The fact that they had to alter the text and remove it from context shows that Jesus did not fulfill any actual Messianic prophecies. If he had, they would have written about those, instead of manufacturing these.
Jim
Hi Jim
I dont disagree with some of contexts and content in regard to Ahaz. Also, yes the pro noun do change. But I dont see the changes as wrong, or inacurate. The language might change but that’s not a reasonable arguement against error. Because the immediate context or emphasis is the name of the child, not who will or or will not name the child, because who owns the name is the issue.
So Isaiah said the mother would name the child, and she did so according to Luke.
So Mathew said they would, Looking at the whole book of Mathew, massive content is aimed purley at the acceptance of the Messianic God Man. Wise men from the east for example or the preaching of John the Baptist and the baptism of repentance. “They” are what Mathew is talking about. Infact you can me into that category. I say He is God with us, but His Mother Mary did the original naming.
So the pro noun change here, contextual is irelivant. Isaiah is given the prophecy. Years later Mary is given direct revelation from God about the prophecy. There’s is no way we know Mary understood the Isaiah passage inregard to herself. Just that she is going to conceive a child from God. Some years later Mathew records the events and expands on the event. So originally it is “She” then it goes to “they” as He, Jesus is accepted as God with us.
Paul, you appear to admit that the context of the fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 is indeed applicable to Isaiah’s time, rather than the Messiah’s. I find that this substantially weakens the possibility that this prophesy could be speaking about jesus, even from a “dualistic prophesy” perspective that you appear to be taking…Allow me to explain:
The birth of Isaiah’s child was clearly the fulfillment of the sign prophesied in Isaiah 7:14-16. How do I know this? Isaiah tells us himself! Lets look at these verses
Isaiah 7:14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:15. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good.
Isaiah 7:16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned.”
Keep verse 16 in mind. It is crucial to the context of Isaiah. Now, lets look at the next chapter of Isaiah and see what he has to say:
Isaiah 8:3. And I was intimate with the prophetess, and she conceived, and she bore a son, and the Lord said to me, “Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
Isaiah 8:4. For, when the lad does not yet know to call, ‘Father’ and ‘mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria.”
Well what do you know! Isaiah said a young woman would give birth to a child and in the very next chapter his wife has a son! Prophesy fulfilled! The interesting thing about it is that Isaiah explicitly says he was intimate with her. This means that this “alma” described in Isaiah 7:14 is Isaiah’s wife. Morever, she is not a virgin! Thus, the word “alma” does not exclusively refer to women who are virgins! Isaiah says it himself!
And if you are still not convinced, here’s a direct statement from Isaiah saying his sons are signs:
Isaiah 8:18. Behold, I and the children whom the Lord gave me for signs and for tokens in Israel, from the Lord of Hosts, Who dwells on Mount Zion.
The natural birth of Isaiah’s son was the fulfillment of the sign of Isaiah 7:14, namely that his wife would give birth to a son, and that before he knew the difference between good and evil/father and mother, “the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria.”
If you are going to argue that this is a “dual fulfillment” regarding Matthew’s application of this to the supposed virgin birth of Jesus, you will have to concede that the word “alma” does not exclusively refer to a virgin, as I have demonstrated above. In any case, this prophesy clearly has nothing to do with Jesus…
Shalom and G-d bless!
Read what Isaiah says, The child is When the sign takes place, NOT the sign. How on earth can a “virgin” be a sign. The only person who knows it is the woman. Not even the husband can truly know. How can ANY rational person trust a text that uses one verse to “create” a doctrine. The sign is “For before the child will know to abhor evil an choose good, the land of the two kings whom you fear will be abandoned”. Now THAT sounds like a SIGN. Now, what land of two kings during Jsus’ adolescence became abandoned. This is quite clear. Where in the Xtian text is this recounted.
Paul,
According to Luke, Mary named Jesus, “Jesus”. I am not sure why you keep bringing him up.
The rest of what you wrote is an admission that Matthew had to change the words to make it fit Jesus, and that was without even getting into the issue of the “virgin birth”. Since, that also doesn’t have anything to do with what Isaiah wrote, it is safe to say that Matthew could find no prophecy about the Messiah which Jesus fulfilled, and so he had to invent some. I hope you understand this point.
Jim
Shalom! Isaiah 7 v.14 does apply to Yahushuo Adonai for I correct literal translation sheds light to the meaning:
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אוֹת הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ עִמָּנוּ אֵל
”Thus He will give Adonai Himself to ye a sign here the young-unmarried-woman is pregnant and will give-birth a son and call his name Immanu – EL”
Why a sign here? A sign is an indication here to see… what is to see that THE young unmarried woman is pregnant. How can she be pregnant? For she is not married yet. This same woman that is honour in psalm 45. This same woman that the false rabbis denigrate by daring to say that she has been defiled. O what will be the punishment of those bearing a false testimony and going against the Ruah Holy who speaks through Her prophet Isaiah:
”Thus He will give Adonai Himself to ye a sign here the young-unmarried-woman is pregnant and will give-birth a son and call his name Immanu – EL”
Wow! Marvelous sign that only Adonai Himself has done! Baruch O Adonai!!
Those who dare insult their mother are cursed. Those who denigrate what is holy are judged. Those who opposes the Ruah Holy will be humiliated!!
Eliyahu And how was this a sign for Ahaz?
Yisroel the sign was a prophetic one in the context of Israel against Yehudah. The two kingdom where divided. The one promised will reunite the two and the beginning of the reunification in time will start with his miraculous birth for He came to gather Israel back.
”17 YHWH will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”
Further this is a prophecy to come that is devastating. Also (very intriguing):
”20 In the same day the Lord will shave with a hired razor,
With those from beyond the River(Euphrates) with the king of Assyria,
The head and the hair of the legs, and will also remove the beard.”
Scrutinize the prophecies for their meaning are coming to past!!
Ahaz having refused a sign. Adonay sent one for all the House of David has exposed above…
13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary also Elohay?”
According to your reckoning NONE of the prophets came for the purpose of that time but instead was preaching a divine Jsus. There was no point in Isaiah even going to Achaz since the prophetic message theme didn’t concern him. BUT what we DO know is your make a mockery of the Word of G-d and scripture and not only the prophets.
Since you consider YourSelf a prophet do you ALSO consider yourself a prophet in the likes of Isaiah and others of that time. Here it says G-d will give a sign, even though Achaz wasn’t receptive so will YOU give Proof to Your prophetic insight.
In accordance with the Perek here the Xtian text focuses on the sign. Of course it is clear that the birth is no sign. Therefore your analysis is wholly flawed. I doubt you can even convince the Xtian community of your continued flawed analysis let alone others here. Why do you continually read into the text instead of trying to Just Understand it. There is an interesting article that Proves that the messiah is a chicken by using your methodology.
Eliyahu
Isaiah said that the two kings will be destroyed while the child is still young – long before your Jesus was born. How do you explain this?
Lion,
May I recommend you read the piece on this page that I titled “On Deception”? And then read it again. And a third time. (A “find” should turn it up no problem.)
Why do I recommend this? Is it arrogance? Is it because I am uncivil?
It is because you have rewritten Tanach to suit your own purpose. You have ignored the errors of the NT because they you assume its truth despite its clear contradiction of Torah. Here, you attempt to rewrite the context of Isaiah 7.14.
In Isaiah 7, Ahaz’s concern is not how Israel and Judah will be reunited. He is afraid of being conquered. This fact, you seem to acknowledge, and yet you rewrite Tanach anyway. Do you consider yourself a prophet superior to Isaiah, because a man named George Bush was elected (not the one you predictedL)?
It is dishonest of you to seize on the words “house of David” and attempt to make them universal, because the prophecy says nothing about reuniting Israel and Judah. This is a pure invention on your part. Instead of promising reunion, Isaiah promises that “the land of the two kings whom you fear will be abandoned”. In fact, the prophet goes on to focus on Assyria, not on Israel. He promises prosperity for Judah, but Israel’s restoration is not mentioned.
Again, you treat the prophet like a puppet, putting your words in his mouth. Because you already believe that the it relates to Jesus somehow, you have to find “intrigue” and issue vague and meaningless pronouncements. You imply some special knowledge. But instead of impressing the reader with your wisdom, you impress with your dishonesty. It is obvious even to the simple that you have only rewritten the prophecy to relate to the reunion of the two peoples because your belief that Jesus will do so, and your own peculiar interpretation of that reunion. We have seen, likewise, how you have abused Malachi, imposing your own meaning upon the terms “fathers” and “sons”.
(This point you have never answered. If I were as abusive as you, I would ask if it was because you did not “dare” to do so? Nor have you answered Sharbano regarding Stephen’s windy speech regarding the tombs of the fathers. Shall I imply that you are a coward, as you have done to us?)
It is also obvious why you ignore Matthew’s–I’m sorry, Mattityahu’s–abuse of the Isaiah 7.14. Matthew could not leave Isaiah 7.14 as written, because Isaiah says that the mother of this child will name him Immanuel. Matthew makes it a vague “they” who will call his name Immanuel. This alteration makes it sound like people, some unknown people, will recognize something special in the nature of Jesus. This is a fabrication. Isaiah is calling attention to the name, because he is assuring Ahaz that God is with the people of Israel, whether Ahaz believes it or not.
The term “house of David” is a rebuke. It draws Ahaz’s attention to his great forefather who trusted in God and whom he represents as his ruling descendant. It is an indication that he should improve himself. Nothing in the term implies a messianic prophecy. And, as I stated earlier, your interpretation of the phrase requires you to make the prophecy say things it does not say.
I would reiterate, as I told to Charles, the Prophets are not your playthings to use in any way you wish. They are not puppets, in which you may put your own words. The Prophets speak the message the received from God. To hear that message, you must stop speaking over them.
Jim
Hey, folks, let’s say Lion’s translation “unmarried” is correct (it isn’t). He asks how an unmarried woman get can get pregnant.
What planet is he living on? Since when can an unmarried woman not get pregnant? I think all those single moms out there would probably like to know how they came to be single moms. So many miracles!
Someone needs to explain the facts of life to our venerable prophet.
I just had a thought, maybe EL learned their Hebrew from places like “Hebrew for Xtians”. Maybe they are teaching “ancient Hebrew”.
Read Shemot / Exodus chapter 30. A messiah (moshiach) is someone who has been anointed as a priest or king. The noun מָשִֽׁיחַ (moshiach aka anointed one) occurs 34 times in the Tanach. Isn’t it interesting that most Christian translators only translate it as “messiah” in Daniel 9?
Moshiach (anointed one) It has to do with a special type of anointment with a particular oil for kings — and this was never done with Jesus. Jesus was never a moshiach — and he did not have the “birth right” to be a rightful king of the Jews. The anointing was normally passed down from father to son — in the case of Aaron (Moses’ brother) he was anointed and then his heirs held the right to the priesthood from his anointing. Mordochai has written about this at length and I am sure he’d go into detail if you asked him to do so.
The Hebrew word is tied to a very specific type of “oil” called שֶֽׁמֶן מִשְׁחַת קֹדֶשׁ shemen mish’ḥat kodesh (“Oil of Anointment of Sanctity”). Notice the word מִשְׁחַת / mish’ḥat? It means anointment. This special mixture of spice and olive oil is the only one that was used for “anointing” Jewish kings or priests. You can read about it in Exodus 30:22-33:
“G-d spoke to Moses, saying: 30:23 You must take the finest fragrances, 500 [shekels] of distilled myrrh, [two] half portions, each consisting of 250 [shekels] of fragrant cinnamon and 250 [shekels] of fragrant cane, 30:24 and 500 shekels of cassia, all measured by the sanctuary standard, along with a gallon of olive oil. 30:25 Make it into sacred anointing oil. It shall be a blended compound, as made by a skilled perfumer, [made especially for] the sacred anointing oil. 30:26 Then use it to anoint the Communion Tent, the Ark of Testimony, 30:27 the table and all its utensils, the menorah and its utensils, the incense altar, 30:28 the sacrificial altar and all its utensils, the washstand and its base. 30:29 You will thus sanctify them, making them holy of holies, so that anything touching them becomes sanctified. 30:30 You must also anoint Aaron and his sons, sanctifying them as priests to Me. 30:31 Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘This shall be the sacred anointing oil to Me for all generations. 30:32 Do not pour it on the skin of any [unauthorized] person, and do not duplicate it with a similar formula. It is holy, and it must remain sacred to you. 30:33 If a person blends a similar formula, or places it on an unauthorized person, he shall be cut off [spiritually] from his people.”
Jesus was never anointed with this special oil. David was. Saul was. . . Thus Saul, David and Solomon were all messiahs — anointed kings.
Rabbi Kaplan wrote “The mission of the Messiah is six-fold. His primary task is to cause all the world to return to G-d and His teachings. He will also restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David.
He will oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple.
He will gather the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.
He will reestablish the Sanhedrin, the religious supreme court and legislature of the Jewish people. This is a necessary condition for the rebuilding of the Third Temple, as it is written,
“I will restore your judges as at first, and your counselors as in the beginning; afterward, you will be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city. Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and those who return to her, with righteousness” (Isaiah 1:26-27).
Such a Sanhedrin would also be able to formally recognize the Messiah as the king of Israel.
He will restore the sacrificial system as well as the practices of the Sabbatical Year (Shmitah) and the Jubilee Year (Yovel).
Therefore, as Maimonides states, “If there arises a ruler from the family of David, immersed in the Torah and its commandments like David his ancestor, following both the Written and Oral Torah, who leads Israel back to the Torah, strengthening the observance of its laws and fighting G-d’s battles, then we may assume that he is the Messiah.
If he is further successful in rebuilding the Temple on its original site and gathering the dispersed of Israel, then his identity as Messiah is a certainty.”
As the Messiah’s powers develop, so will his fame. The world will begin to recognize his profound wisdom and come to seek his advice. He will then teach all mankind to live in peace and follow G-d’s teachings. The prophets thus foretold,
“It shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of G-d’s house shall be set over all other mountains and lifted high above the hills; and all nations shall come streaming to it. Many people shall come and say, ‘Come, let us go up to G-d’s mountain, to the house of Israel’s G-d. He (the Messiah) will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths.’ For Torah shall go forth out of Zion, and G-d’s word from Jerusalem. And he (the Messiah) will judge between nations and decide between peoples. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither will they practice war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:2-4, Micah 4:1-3)
In the Messianic Era, many non-Jews will feel compelled to convert to Judaism as the prophet foretold,
“I will then give all peoples a pure tongue, that they may call in the Name of G-d, and all serve Him in one manner” (Zephaniah 3:9).
Once the Messiah has revealed himself, however, converts will no longer be accepted.
Still, Jerusalem will become the center of worship and instruction for all mankind. G-d thus told His prophet,
“I will return to Zion and I will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, and Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth and the Mountain of the G-d of Hosts, the Holy Mountain” (Zechariah 8:3).
This will begin the period when the teachings of G-d will be supreme over all mankind, as it is written,
“For HaShem of Hosts will be King in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem. [He will reveal His] Glory in the presence of His wise elders” (Isaiah 24:23).
All peoples will then come to Jerusalem to seek G-d. The prophet Zechariah describes this graphically when he says, “Many people and mighty nations will come and seek the G-d of Hosts in Jerusalem… In those days, ten people out of all the nations will take hold of the corner of the garment of every Jew and say,
‘We will go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you'” (Zechariah 8:22-23).
In Jerusalem, the Jewish people will thus be established as the spiritual and moral teachers of all mankind. At that time, Jerusalem will become the spiritual capital of the world.
In the Messianic Era, all people will believe in G-d and proclaim His Unity. The prophet thus foretold,
“G-d will be King over all the earth; on that day G-d will be One and His Name One: (Zechariah 14:9).
In the Messianic Era, jealousy and competition will cease to exist, for all good things will be most plentiful and all sorts of delicacies will be as common as dust. Men will no longer wage or prepare for war, as the prophet foretold,
“Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither will they practice war any more” (Isaiah 2:4).
In the Messianic Era, all nations will live peacefully together. Similarly, people of all dispositions will live together in harmony. The prophet spoke of this allegorically when he said,
“The wolf will dwell with the lamb; the leopard will lie down with the kid; the calf, the young lion, and the fatling together, will be led by a young child. The cow will graze with the bear; their young will lie down together; the lion will eat straw like the ox” (Isaiah 11:6-7).
Although the Messiah will influence and teach all mankind, his main mission will be to bring the Jewish people back to G-d. The prophet thus said,
“For the children of Israel will remain for many days with no king and no prince… Afterward, the children of Israel will return and seek G-d their L-rd and David their king; they will come in awe to G-d and His goodness, in the end of days” (Hosea 3:4-5).
Similarly, “My servant David will be king over them; they will all have one shepherd; they will also follow My ordinances and observe My laws” (Ezekiel 37:24).
As society reaches toward perfection and the world becomes increasingly G-dly, humanity’s main occupation will only be to know G-d. The truth will be revealed and the entire world will acknowledge that the Torah is G-d’s true teaching. This is what the prophet meant when he foretold,
“The earth will be full of the knowledge of G-d, as the waters cover the sea” (Isaiah 11:9).
Similarly, all mankind will attain the highest levels of Divine Inspiration without any difficulty whatsoever. G-d thus promised through His prophet,
“It shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy” (Joel 3:1).
Although man will still have free will in the Messianic Age, he will have every inducement to do good and follow G-d’s teachings. It will be as if the power of evil were totally annihilated. This is what the prophet predicted,
“I will place My Torah inside of them, and inscribe it upon their hearts… A person will no longer teach his friend and his brother saying, ‘Know G-d!’ For all of them will know Me, great and small alike” (Jeremiah 31:32-33).
The prophet likewise said in G-d’s name,
“I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh” (Ezekiel 36:26).
That is, the inclination toward good will be strengthened in man to such an extent that he will not be drawn after the physical at all. Rather, he will constantly strengthen himself spiritually and incline toward serving G-d and following His Torah. This is the meaning of the Torah’s promise that,
“G-d will circumcise the foreskins of your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you will love G-d your L-rd with all your heart and soul” (Deut. 30:6).
The Messiah will not change our religion in any way. All the commandments will be binding in the Messianic Era. Nothing will be added to or subtracted from the Torah.
To Dina and others I will address Deuteronomy 13:
1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”
It is the claim of a sect of Judaism like the Lubavitch that their so-called messiah who died will come back soon. Are they apostate?
“The Messiah will proclaim the message that redemption has arrived from the roof of Lubavitch headquarters at 770 Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn. (The Rebbe’s discourse on Parashat Hayyei Sarah 5751.) The heavenly Temple will not descend directly into Jerusalem. It will first descend to a spot adjoining 770 Eastern Parkway, and the buildings, along with all other diaspora synagogues, will then be transported to Jerusalem. (The Rebbe’s discourse, published as a separate booklet, titled Mikdash Me’at: Zeh Beit Rabbenu she-be-Bavel.)”
I think he is in the category of the dreamers…
“The Chabad Chief Rabbi of Russia remains listed on the rabbinic ruling that the Rebbe is the messiah. In Crown Heights, a signatory of the ruling (Rabbi Aharon Yaakov Schwei) has apparently become the most influential member of the Crown Heights rabbinic court. The main synagogue at 770 Eastern Parkway remains decorated with messianist slogans. My impression is that the situation in the largest yeshiva in Crown Heights, Oholei Torah/Oholei Menachem, is mixed, but within the last year eight mashpi’im (religious mentors) there issued a letter on an unrelated matter where the Rebbe is referred to as a matter of course as the King Messiah. (Hebrew readers can consult it here.)
That letter also uses another expression in reference to the Rebbe: avinu malkenu (our father our king). This is a term reserved for God in standard Jewish usage. One of those mashpi’im, Rabbi Sholom Charitonow, wrote an article that I discussed in my book as an example of the conviction that the Rebbe is fully divine, a belief that is not confined, as most observers assume, to a small number of unbalanced individuals. In the case of this letter, one could conceivably argue that the term is intended to refer only to God and not the Rebbe, but to insist on such a reading given the context would be a manifestation of willful blindness.” (Source: http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/179435/berger-rebbe-messiah)
Now the real Messiah of Israel said:
23 “At that time if anyone would say to you, ‘behold in this way the Messiah’ or ‘in this way’ you must not believe; 24 they will be elevated namely false-messiahs and false-prophets and offer pompous-pretentious signs and monstrosities, so as to cause to wander, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold I have told you beforehand. (Matthew chap. 24)
Mr. L., you did not address Deuteronomy 13 at all. In this chapter we are warned not to engage in any type of worship that was unknown to our fathers. Pointing to a Jewish group that is making the same mistakes as Christianity has made is hardly addressing the point.
How about responding to the challenge instead of diverting attention away from it?
Shalom Dina! I was showing an example of false messiah and idolatry of a man, your so-called rebbe. In the time of the true Messiah, many presented themselves with those so-called claim to the title of messiah we remembered a few but no religion was created of those false prophets.
Now concerning Yahshuo the Messiah, his Resurrection by the Father Eternal made him king to submit everything to him first by destroying from within the pagan Roman empire and establishing the power of the holy People on their enemies.
Yahshuo called himself son of Adam and referred to the Supremacy, the Monarchy of the FATHER. The prayer that He taught us is the: Our Father who are in the Heavens, allowed by your Name thy Kingdom come thy Will be done on earth as it is in the Heavens. Give us our daily bread and forget our debts as we forget our debtors and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Ameen! Where is the contravention to Deuteronomy 13? For the role of the Messiah the first -Born is to bring everything under the Eternal Father by the power of Ruah holy.
THAT is your determination that your messiah is real that a new religion was Created. Right. We know the history of that religion. As I recall the stories of resurrection are contradictory.
What difference would it make that pagan Rome would change. What did occur was that Xtianity became Roman and included many of the pagan systems that Rome had. The Jews of that time had No power over Rome whatsoever. Instead they became Rome.
Therefore, given your belief about a messiah we can say that the Rebbe would qualify just as much, maybe even more so. The Rebbe’s teachings were uplifting and didn’t teach hate as Jsus did. Whatever he Didn’t accomplish he will accomplish at a second coming.
Schema Sharbano very carefully! Each words you say will be counted by the Almighty, therefore speaking non-sense and lies will condemn you. The 9th commandment says: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.’ Rabbi Yahshuo never taught hatred that is a lie. What you have been taught is not reality but propaganda against the Messiah of Israel who pulled out many nations from idol worship. Idol worship is the worship of man, elements of nature or even demons like the Romans used to do.
It is not because we were persecuted by some Christians that the state of things was not getting better but HaShem showed us the same path as his suffering servant. I had hoped that we would had understood the lesson but evidently some people like you are full of non-sense. Your rebbe is dead where is his resurrection proving his words. He might be in sheol with demons now persecuting him for his non-sense. Listen to the Dabar Elohim not to men inventions or pride. Yahshuo the Rabbi taught us that He came in the Name to PASSOVER death into the Promise Land of the Heavenly Yerushala’im do not miss the boat by staying in the spiritual Egypt and by believing Babylonians non-sense.
You have been warned! It is serious your eternity is at stake. Choose the path to life not to lies and deceit for it is written by the glorious and powerful Rabbi Saul:
6 And now the one controlling you have perceived, into the one to be revealed him within his own proper time; 7 this indeed mystery already operates of the abolishment of the Torah, alone the one controlling presently until from out of the midst he emerge; 8 and then will be unveiled the negator of the Torah, whom the Lord will refute by the spirit of his mouth and render inoperative by the manifestation of his presence; 9 whose is the presence against operations of the satan in every power and signs and prodigies of falsehood 10 and every deceit of the iniquity among those dying-away, in return for these the love of the truth they did not receive into the one to have saved them; 11 and because of that he will send them the Elohim an operation of delusion into the one to conform them to the liar, 12 in order that they be condemned all those not having conformed to the truth, but having consented in relation to the iniquity.
(2 Thessalonians, chap. 2)
Mr. Lion,
Why are you quoting a Greek book? I was under the impression that you had your own private “New Testament,” the way you wrote that you do not hold by the Greek books, only by Hebrew books. I asked before, but I think you missed the question: For clarification purposes, can you tell us what books you take to be authoritative other than Tanach?
Thanks,
Jim
Jim Shalom!
I quoted this passage that I have translated myself to show you that what we accuse Saul is only propaganda. I have read all his writings (I’m not close minded) and I found nothing going against Torah. You can pull out some controversial passage outside context but do not render justice to a brother (Saul) who was from the tribe of Benyamin who wrote powerful letters that created the most powerful religion in the world spiritually. (I’m not talking about heterodox Christian that lost the Ruah holy but real Orthodox Christians capable of moving mountains by their love and their faith: they healed the sick, they gave their lives for the poor , they made Tikun Olam by their loving mercy.
Saul is no liar (bearing false testimony is a grave sin which block you from entering Shama’im) for his word gives the Torah more penetration to understand the Plan of the Elohim. His encountered with the Resurrected Messiah is a testimony to the truth for no man has suffered so much persecution from his brothers than him. He held firm and like the prophets was martyr for the faith.
We all seeker of the truth! I hope! Where is the Tikun Olam of Orthodox Judaism? For we judge a tree by his fruits…
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/a-light-to-the-nations/
Lion,
Do not mistake rhapsody for argument. You imagine a world healed by Christianity, but the evidence of tikkun olam brought about by Christianity is scant indeed. Miracles are attributed to the Church, just as they are attributed to every other religion. Investigation into these miracles, however, reveals them to be dubious.
But let us investigate. Let us test the fruit of Christianity and see what sort of tree we have. The Church has done much good in the world. It has opened hospitals and schools. Quite frequently it has taken care of the poor and has created many helpful social institutions.
But the Church has also done much evil. Has any body in the history of the world proven to be more schismatic? From the time of its inception, the Church has not been one body but many. It’s many branches cannot agree even upon its fundamental doctrines. You write of the supposed persecutions of Paul, but you must know that the greatest persecutors of the Church were Christian sects.
Of course, their persecutions were not restricted to one another. The history of the Church and its persecution of the Jewish people is well-known, culminating in the most organized attempt at extermination of a people in world history. The paranoia of the Church was such that it forced Jews to convert and then, not trusting that the conversions were sincere, tortured them to see if they really meant it.
You have too often told people here that they ought not judge righteous people like Jesus and Paul. You ignore that Jesus regularly attacked his opponents, judging their characters openly. He called them vipers, hypocrites, and children of the devil. He so branded the Pharisees as hypocrites that the word “Pharisee” is defined as a particularly hypocritical person in the Christian world. So strong is this association that a couple Mormons argued one day over whether when describing hypocrites the word “Pharisaical” should be used or “Pharisitic”. What nerve, then, that you piously instruct others here that they ought not judge righteous men!
But who made you a judge to know if Jesus and Paul are righteous? Are you a witness to Jesus’ life? So little of his life is actually recorded. You have no way of knowing how he conducted himself daily, especially before his ministry began. You do not know if he cheated in business or committed adultery. You assume he did not. The gospels would like us to believe that Jesus was a good person, a perfect person even; however very little of his life is recorded.
And of what is recorded many faults appear. The gospel writers, in their attempt to magnify Jesus through the ‘recording’ of his miracles, did not recognize that they painted the portrait of a man who was not as morally superior as they believed. This is a man who curses a fig tree because he finds no figs out of season, selfish and petty, allowing none else to eat from the tree in the future. This is a man who steals pigs to cast out demons. This is a man who breaks the Sabbath, unnecessarily, to restore sight. (Theoretically, he does not need to make a paste to restore sight. He does this only to violate Torah.)
And I have already pointed out that he glorified himself over God. Do I know that these things happened? Do I know that Jesus was a sinner? No. However, it is the testimony that you would have us believe. So, if I take that testimony to be true, then I must accept that Jesus was a sinner, not a perfect being. I would have trouble calling such a man good, even.
But I have no interest in judging him as a man. That is not my job; I leave it in the hands of God. But I must judge his claims, or at least the claims the Church makes in his name. You have told us that our fate hinges on it. And judging those claims, I can see that Jesus was not a sinless being. (Nor am I.) I can see that he was not God. I can see that he was not the Messiah.
If we are to judge the tree by its fruit, let us do it honestly. The Church is a mixed bag. It has done much good in the building of hospitals and other social institutions. It has also done much evil, both against itself and others. It has not brought tikkun olam, nor even brought us any closer to it. Nor did its supposed founder. He also did not bear fruit of unmitigated good. Much of what he is reported by his followers to have said and done is rather evil. He exalted himself. He abused those who did not blindly follow him. He broke the Sabbath, did not honor his parents, and denied others future pleasures because he could not enjoy a pleasure presently. These are not the actions of a superlative being. We must conclude that there is much bad fruit from both Jesus and his followers.
Jim
Lion, hoisted by your own petard again! You’re good at that :). I have to say, this exchange between you and Sharbano is one of the most amusing ones I’ve ever read.
Shalom sister Dina! You like to laugh a lot. Mockery is a sin that proceed from pride. I think our conversation is very very serious. Souls are on the line here this is no joke!! When you have a love for others brothers or Gentiles you care for their safety and do everything to make them safe from shadow wolves…
Sorry, Lion. You’re right, this is very serious. Nothing more than our very souls hinge on the outcome of our discussion.
I shouldn’t have said that. I should have simply pointed out that it’s wrong of you to preach your religion as if you are God’s prophet.
It may be a serious matter to you with a theology of hell and damnation but we honor a Tradition that dates to Moshe. It is said G-d does not change and what you have been promulgating is a far cry from what was taught at Sinai. It really makes no sense that G-d would institute what is contained in Torah only to say in midstream, Never Mind, let’s try something different. Xtianity’s main premise is “To Believe”. A belief in a theology is counter to G-d’s encounter with Avraham. He wasn’t righteous because he had a belief in G-d. What warranted G-d’s praise was Avraham was willing to Obey G-d in all His commandments. He had Emunah, which by the way isn’t defined as the Xtian word for faith, and there is no mention of him being moved by the wind.
Shalom! Tell me sister by which authority do you judge who is or who is not a prophet? That the Sanhedrin takes the matter this I can understand. But tell me who are you to judge this matter??
And who are you, Lion, to declare yourself a prophet?
The Torah tells us how to identify a false prophet. According to Deuteronomy 13 (which you have still failed to address) if a prophet tells us to worship other gods he is a false prophet. By this standard you are a false prophet because you promote worship of the human Jesus as if he were part of God.
You refuse to engage in a debate using reason but rather make proclamations that you insist we accept or we will all go to hell. You cannot expect to be taken seriously if you claim to be a prophet and refuse to engage in reasoned debate.
Jim presented a well-reasoned argument and you dismissed him by saying he was brainwashed by the rabbis, without any proof that he had any rabbinic instruction. You did not address any of his powerful reasons for rejecting your claims.
Well, Lion, everyone knows that if you are losing a debate, the next step is to attack your opponent’s character.
E.L.
Do you have a church you are connected to on line, so I can look closer at it? There are words you use I have never seen and cannot even get a definition of. You explain things in way I have never heard before.
Thanks
Larry Shalom to you! I’m just a servant-messenger taught by the Master moved by the Ruah holy to glorify my Beloved YHWH EL-ELYON. For it is written in Malachi:
“For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says YHWH tsabaot,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the YHWH tsabaot,.
“Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
Behold, I will send you Eliyahu the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the YHWH.
And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
Larry, what an honor! You can talk to someone who gets his revelations directly from God. Now that doesn’t happen every day. Take advantage while you can.
Eliyahu Do you believe that you are Eliyahu the prophet that Malachi was talking about?
You Do know that Ruach means wind.
Shalom dear brother Yisroel!
I’m a servant-messenger who loves Israel and Yehudah! Glory to YHWH ELOHIM to Him worship and adoration now and forever!!
I’m beginning to notice a pattern here. The Rabbi put a straight-forward question to you. Are you Eliyahu the prophet from Malachi. You answer of “servant-messenger” is evasive, equivocal and disingenuous. You fail to answer any direct questions. You cite ambiguous references and give answers that are also ambiguous, at best. When we say there is no clarity in your doctrines your answers not only Lack clarity but divert from the subject matter. You state your purpose is to bring knowledge of redemption to the people here yet you complain the people here don’t heed your words. How many times has it been shown the error of your thinking and instead of continuing the dialog you become obstinate. Whether or not you want to realize the matter, when a person has such a reaction they lack the knowledge to continue. You can denigrate the Rabbis but this isn’t the reaction of those Rabbis. A study of Talmud would confirm this. If there is a dispute different Rabbis would give their opinions and through the analysis they would Find the underlying truth. When reading these arguments, especially at first, you will have a Rabbi give his opinion and his reasoning for it and the logic of that opinion and, as the reader, you will say, of course he’s right. You will continue reading and find the next Rabbi dispute that and give his reasoning and Why the previous one erred. Now He seems right. This progression continues until everything is analyzed and the conclusion is found. An interesting example is the Two men and a chimney. Therefore, your “opinion” of the Rabbis are without merit.
Eliyahu I have another question for you – did you ever hear of Itzhak Shapira (author of “The Return of the Kosher Pig”)?
E.L.
I don’t understand everything your saying where can I find out more. Is there a church or somewhere I can understand? Do you have your own church/ ?
thanks
Boker Tov Yisroel! Shalom to you!
I heard about him and went to check his doctrine. He is a Sephardic Orthodox Yehudi who believes that Yahshuo is the Messiah of Israel. I do not subscribe to his pig kosher concept. He mixes a lot of sacred concept and gives his own interpretation. He calls himself Rabbi when Yahshuo commands not to do so.
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.”
”Ye however do not be called ‘rabbi’; one namely to ye is the master-teacher, the Messiah; all moreover ye brothers ye are.”
Glory to the KING YHWH my Beloved now and forever!!
Dear Larry Peace to you! May HaShem open your heart to his mercy and may his face shines upon you.
You asked:
”I don’t understand everything your saying where can I find out more. Is there a church or somewhere I can understand? Do you have your own church/ ?”
Patience the Redemption of All Israel is approaching where Yerushala’im will shine to the world.
Read the Bible-Tanakh and most of all pray with the Psalms-Tehilim that you may prepare your heart for what is coming very soon. Be careful not to be pull away from the truth of the Revelation for the Dabar Elohim is holy and pure capable of purify your heart of all your transgressions. Love your brothers from both Houses: Israel and Yehudah. Pray for the reunification of All Israel.
Love you in the Ruah Hakodesh!!
Lion, when you proclaim yourself as the sole possessor of the truth who gets his understanding simply from reading scripture and “ruach hakodesh” and who is so superior in his wisdom and knowledge that he needs no teacher, then you are perceived as unbelievably, breathtakingly arrogant.
I am telling you this because it is a mitzvah to rebuke your fellow Jew. Self-awareness is the first step to overcoming your negative character traits. May Hashem grant you the courage to confront yourself and the wisdom, strength, and guidance to act upon your discoveries.
What does being a witness have to do with this.
When “your” Rabbi tells a man to let the dead bury the dead or dishonors his parents as he did, he certainly is promulgating hatred.
Those who worship Jsus are thus worshiping an idol as he was a man.
The Rebbe didn’t qualify as Mashiach because he died, the same as your Jsus. As far as his resurrection, that is suspect. There are differing accounts of the situation. To take a chance on what is said by few men is ludicrous. Are YOU actually hearing the words of “Dabar Elokim” or is it men you have listened to. As one Rabbi has termed it, the Applewhite Theorem. Of course there is always the possibility that maybe the Rebbe Has resurrected. You just haven’t heard of it because he only returned to a select few of his followers and won’t reveal himself until the time is right.
PASSOVER death??? What does Pesach have to do with any of this. It certainly had absolutely Nothing to do with sin. Certainly this part is the most egregious. When a man would say this is my body and blood, eat and drink, it is nothing short of disgusting. I still recall the first time I read that. I was literally appalled. This is something from G-d?? No doubt it comes from the Sitra Achra.
And you say we should listen to the glorious and powerful Rabbi Saul. A man who admitted he would lie and say whatever was necessary. A man who says he was a Pharisee yet worked for the Sadducees. He is certainly not a man to whom trust should be given.
following
Shalom Sharbano! Are you serious?? Do you know what Peshah (Passover) means? Do you forget that Adam and Hawah were banished from Paradise? Do you forget that we are subject to death? Do you forget that to make a sin against YHWH ELOHIM is not nothing but a condemnation to death? Do you know your Torah and how severe it was in the time of Moshe no laxity like in our present time?
Everything is serious in life! It is no joke! Eternity depends on your love of the truth. I say no the slaveries of Misrayim and lies and deceits of Babylon. Purify your souls with the fire of HaShem that you may be worthy to enter Shama’im.
Lion, everything is serious in life? There is no room in your religion for jokes and laughter and joy? And then you complain about our fanatical rules that turn people away? Who wants a joyless, humorless religion such as that?
Sharbano Shalom to you!
Dear brother you take everything with an Occidental mind and do not understand the Middle Eastern mentality. Yahshuo was not an American nor European but Yehudi. When He says let the dead bury their dead He says it in a context, here of a person asking to follow him as the Master-teacher. His response indicates that it is not everybody that can follow him for his path is narrow. He wants to dissuade frivolous followers. Indeed his path is narrow for it is only destined to the elect. The elect are those who will reign with Him on the world to come.
If you do not understand, it is because HaShem prevents you to understand not being of those elect to reign with the Messiah of Israel. I do not judge you and I do love as a brother but your destiny is may be different.
Observe all the Torah pray with the Tehilim(Psalms). Do not judge others and especially the Messihim nor Yahshuo for if you do a mistake in judging a Tsadik you will make a grave sin. Do not denigrate others to elevate yourself for it proceeds from pride and a sense of insecurity about yourself and the world around you.
Well, your response is simply an excuse that is compounded by self-acknowledged superiority. It is astonishing to read how Your messiah doesn’t want “frivolous” followers. The man that went to Hillel could certainly have been deemed frivolous, yet, what was his response. He taught the man. Certainly Hillel was much greater than your messiah could ever hope to be.
Not only is there self-aggrandizement in your words but you want to attribute the same to Hashem by saying He is “preventing” my understanding. It is not difficult to understand the written word as words have meanings and Xtianity has taken original intent of words and confused their meanings. This is evident in the many writings of Paul, who changes, distorts and creates text that doesn’t exist.
We know from the Xtian text itself that it has indicted itself. It begins with a genealogy that is inaccurate in order to achieve a number. Then we have a scene with J’sus telling his followers to “create” a fulfillment of the donkey. We have J’sus condemning the Pharisees in the most vile terms even though they sit in Moshe’s seat. It says it was prophesied he would be called a Nazarene. He made predictions that the generation of his time would not see death but the kingdom. There are countless examples whereby we can conclude this new religion is false.
One gets the impression from many a Xtian that they would believe all the writings of their bible were contemporary. But we know differently. It was a generation later that the texts were written. Furthermore, the followers of J’sus were ignorant men and had they been educated they wouldn’t have marveled at some of his teachings. And so it is today. Those who are knowledgeable in Torah can see through the charade. Many Xtians today have come to realize this. Knowledge has increased, as prophesied, and even entire church congregations have abandoned the religion and some have converted to Judaism and others have become Noachides. Truly Xtianity is a narrow path and scores have come to see the wide expanse that is Torah and that Hashem has made room for all.
Lion, I’ve been keeping track, and this is the third person you’ve castigated for pride. When you start seeing everyone as being arrogant, that’s when it’s a good time to take a good, long, hard look in the mirror.
Lion, your words: “Indeed his path is narrow for it is only destined to the elect. The elect are those who will reign with Him on the world to come. If you do not understand, it is because HaShem prevents you to understand not being of those elect to reign with the Messiah of Israel.”
This contradicts the teachings of the Hebrew Bible. Hashem doesn’t prevent us from understanding because He grants us free will to choose between good and evil, life and death. Our spiritual fate lies entirely in our own hands. Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30, and Ezekiel 18 and 33 handily refute your assertion.
The path is not narrow but the gate is open wide for anyone who desires to connect with Hashem and tries to do good. “Hashem is close to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him sincerely.”
Lion,
You continue to appeal to irrelevant “facts” such as the resurrection to support your belief that Jesus is the Messiah. This supposed event has already been shown to have no bearing upon the question of the identity of the Messiah. One might as well say that Jesus was the best baker in the world as proven by his resurrection. That is to say, the definition of Messiah does not contain within it that the candidate be resurrected.
Moreover, you admitted that if Jesus said the things he is supposed to have said in the New Testament, then he was a sinner. He was not a perfect being. He violated the Sabbath and taught others to do so. He claimed even to be the Lord of the Sabbath. He dishonored his mother and taught others to dishonor their parents, and other sins besides. These things you said would be wrong if he had done them, but that those come from Greek books, which do not count. And yet, you continue to quote from those Greek books as if they have merit.
This Jesus interposed himself between Man and God. He continually detracted from God, exalting himself instead. You attempt to give “PASSOVER” a new, hidden meaning, making it but a type, a shadow for your real god, Jesus, to bring to fullness. This is exactly the opposite of drawing one’s attention to the God of Sinai. This over-writing of Torah is an attempt to distract one from HaShem and put the focus on Jesus. Can anything be more self-evident? You, yourself, have minimized the giving of the Torah at Sinai by making Shavuot the birthday of your god. If I recall correctly, you called him the ‘Living Torah,’ thereby attempting to make his arrival more meaningful than the public revelation of God’s precious commandments.
No, Jesus is not the Messiah, but a new god, one that was not revealed at Sinai. And it will not help to avoid using Greek terms, but to rely on Jewish terms. The ideas are the same, no matter how you dress them up.
You have made a point of Lucifer being the subject of Isaiah 14, dressing it up with Hebrew words. Call him what you will, the passage is clearly not referring to a fallen angel who attempts to make war on HaShem. You pretend to have rejected ideas foreign to Torah, but you inject them into the text no differently than Greek or Latin speakers. You just dress it up in Hebrew. Put as much lipstick on a pig as you want, it will not become kosher.
Jim
Jim your responses come from the brainwashing that you received from so-called rabbis. To deny the truth does not make you a better person but an ostrich closing his eyes to reality. When you eyes are used to be blind when the ray of the sun tries to shine on them it hurts. Your reaction is very normal! What is not normal is to play the same disk over and over like a parrot. and be contend to here it over and over.
Your arguments are without basis but travesties of reality to lure a way from the Messiah of Israel who came into this world to give life eternal. Without him you will not enter Shama’im. Why?? For the Father Eternal gave him power over everybody to submit them all to the will of Eloah in order to be true worshiper of the ONE ELOHIM in spirit and truth.
For it written in Malachi:
“But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings”
And in Deuteronomy:
“YHWH Eloheikha will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear…”
Lion,
I note that you have not actually addressed my argument. You have only looked for a way to dismiss me. You will not prove your faith correct by mere assertion. You have only said what amounts to saying, “I am right, because I have declared myself to be right.”
Regarding my apparent brain-washing. Once, I was a Christian. In fact, that is how I grew up. I am not Jewish, and though I do a little learning with rabbis now, it was not through rabbinic teaching that I realized the falsity of the Christian claims. I came to this conclusion through a consideration of the claims of Christianity. They do not hold up logically.
While you have declaimed against others taking scriptures out of context, you have not held the NT to that standard. Surely, as you are aware of the Jewish position regarding Jesus and as you are a student of the Bible, you are aware that the NT misrepresents Tanach regularly. Not only does it take verses out of context, rewrites them. It changes the meaning, just as you attempt to change the significance of Passover and Shavuot to be about Jesus.
This practice should be enough to make one turn away from the NT. It is dishonest or ignorant in its approach. An intellectually honest person will not attempt to justify the perfidious approach taken by the NT authors and assuming their correctness when evidence points the other way.
And I do not just mean the so-called fulfilled prophecies. Their is obvious distortion there, but the philosophy of the NT is too much opposed to that of Tanach. The greatest error of Christianity is that Jesus is divine. It is not much better to say that one can only approach God through him.
When you quote Deuteronomy and Malachi, it is to no effect. It is mere assertion that these apply somehow to Jesus. You do not demonstrate it at all. You expect us to take your word for it.
You claim to be a prophet. So, then, let us test you as any prophet should be tested. I am certain that you are familiar with Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18. You know that we are not just to accept any claim blindly. You also do not just listen to every other religions prophets because they claim to have heard either from God or their gods. Demonstrate for us that we might know that you are a true prophet and not one of the many false prophets.
But, no, it will not matter if you walk on water or turn water into wine. As you know, Deuteronomy 13 prohibits us from listening to you. For even if you could tell me fantastic things that would seem only could be known by God, and even if you turned water into wine, or walked on water, or fed 5,000 people with one baguette, we could not listen to you. You preach a foreign god.
So I urge you: do not assign to yourself the status of prophet. You only bring punishment upon yourself. You cannot imagine how great your crime is to speak for God words that He never said. You cannot imagine how great the crime to urge others to worship Jesus, or any being other than HaShem.
Jim
Hi Mr. L.,
You wrote a few things I want to respond to in this comment, so I will quote your words and place my response beneath.
“I was showing an example of false messiah and idolatry of a man, your so-called rebbe.”
I’m assuming you are referring to the last Lubavitcher rebbe, the late Rabbi Schneerson. For your information, he is not my rabbi for two reasons: one, he is dead; two, I do not belong to Chabad. He is not the messiah because he did not fulfill any messianic prophecies. Anyone who attributes divinity to him is guilty of idolatry; you are 100% correct to note that. There is no difference between deification of Jesus and deification of the rebbe. Those within Chabad who engage in this type of messianism have been roundly condemned as kofrim (heretics) not only by other traditional Jewish groups but also by members of the Chabad community.
“Now concerning Yahshuo the Messiah, his Resurrection by the Father Eternal made him king to submit everything to him first by destroying from within the pagan Roman empire and establishing the power of the holy People on their enemies.”
Please show me where in the Torah we are instructed to identify the Messiah by his resurrection. Furthermore, Jesus didn’t even show himself to the Pharisees as he promised notwithstanding–so you ought not to believe his resurrection ever occurred. You have been presented with these two points several times, but you have not responded to them.
Who are the “holy People” whose power was established? Who are the enemies of the “holy People”?
You wrote about the Lord’s Prayer. I have no problem with the Lord’s Prayer, seeing as Jesus lifted it wholesale from the Jewish liturgy–a fact you would know if you were really an Orthodox Jew as you claim. There is no contradiction between that prayer and Deuteronomy 13. You obviously missed the point of Deuteronomy 13, which is that any type of worship that was unknown to our fathers is idolatry. Jesus was unknown to our fathers, so it is forbidden to worship him.
You have yet to honestly confront that chapter as well as Deuteronomy 4.
Good luck!
Shalom sister Dina!
Deuteronomy4: 15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal…
Ameen!! What can I say more to the Torah? What is your point Dina? Because Catholics carved images making statues of their saints that means Yahshuo is not the Messiah… That is poor judgement from your part. Our people did the same with the ark of the alliance… Where it is now? Our people did the same with the worship of the serpent of brass. Does the Torah lose his validity because of poor witnesses??
Also the ark was represented by two cherub on top when explicitly the Torah forbids to do any carved image of the things above, on earth or below. How can you reconcile the contradiction?
For the Orthodox Christians icons are not carved images, they are images for the people to understand the written word. They bow down not to images but venerates them as the Tanakh is venerated as the Sefer Torah is…
Again what is your point? O that Yahshuo is a Man… According to Rabbi Saul, he came in the form of man here is the text that I have translated from the Greek for the English translation do not render properly the power of those words:
5 This let it be minded in you which also in Messiah Yahushuo, 6 who in a condition of Elohim belonging surely not a prize to be grasped he led the way himself the one to be dual-equal to Elohai, 7 otherwise himself he emptied having taken a condition of slave, in a likeness of men having become, 8 and of appearance having been found as a man, he humbled himself having become obedient as far as death, death furthermore of a cross. 9 Because of which also the Elohim exalted him exceedingly and given him a name the one above every name, 10 in order that in the name of Yahushuo every knee should bow upon heavens and on earths and down from earths, 11 and every tongue should confess that Lord Yahushuo Messiah you are a glory of Elohim Father. (Philippians, chap. 2)
If you understand properly the concept of the 10 Sephirot you will understand properly what Rabbi Saul was teaching. But here I doubt that you have yet attain the wisdom of the sages but I hope you will one day the Elohim willing.
Something doesn’t seem quite right here. It is clear you can write very coherent English, Yet Every time you translate a text it is as if it is done using Strong’s concordance. There is no coherent flow to your translation. Never have I seen translation done in such a way. I’ve heard many a Rabbi’s lesson on Talmud and will read the text and translate it with a flow that is coherent. I have heard Russian Rabbis that had much difficulty with English also do a good job in the flow of translation. You have translated both Hebrew and Greek with the same incoherency. If you DO have a command of the languages it should be no effort to do so in a coherent flow. It more resembles something from Google translate.
Sharbano, I was thinking exactly the same thing! The translations sounded to me like they came from Google.
Shalom Dina and Sharbano! Google… like many time you distort the truth. Google can not translate nothing especially ancient Hebrew! All my translation are done to be as literal as possible to show the Hebrew mind not the flow in English. My understanding is that you don’t even know the meaning of each Hebrew letter .Keep your ignorance and be close minded that will leave where you are at: denigrating others especially the Messihim. Bravo!!
You have yet to learn, O Lion, that when you try to translate a language literally word for word, the result is incoherence–hence our assumption that you were using Google. Perhaps, one day, God willing, you will attain the wisdom of understanding how to translate from one language to another.
May God open your eyes and have mercy on your soul!
What is a Messihim. You’ve used that term a number of times. If it is suppose to be something like messiah followers then it’s of your own making.
Translating from Hebrew like that Does NOT show the Hebrew mind. In saying THAT, you are saying the Hebrew mind is disjointed because Hebrew is NOT directly translatable. As with any language the “structure” is different but each language has a flow to it. To translate as you have distorts that flow and gives the impression to others that Hebrew speakers aren’t coherent. Therefore, for you to be literal is nothing but distorting the intent and doing an injustice to Lashon Kodesh.
Surely you jest, O Lion!
You cannot believe that Deuteronomy 4 is simply a prohibition against making carved images, for by your logic it would then be permitted to worship anything as long as you do not make a physical representation. It would be permitted to worship the spirit of a cat, if no image is present.
Read that chapter again carefully. It teaches us that we are to worship God ONLY according to the knowledge of Him that He imparted to us at Sinai, and we are to transmit this knowledge as a teaching from parent to child (not only through Scripture).
God did not teach about Jesus at Sinai or about a trinity or anything else, so worship of Jesus and the trinity is idolatry.
As for the ark, the carved images do not represent deities, Jesus, trinities, the written word, etc.; nor were they to be worshiped or bowed down to or used in any way in, for example, a prayer service. You wrote, “For the Orthodox Christians icons are not carved images, they are images for the people to understand the written word.” So what? Deuteronomy 4 and the first three of the Ten Commandments forbid this practice. They do not forbid the practice of keeping Torah scrolls–which Jews DO NOT BOW DOWN TO. We simply treat them with respect because God’s name is written upon them.
You do not have to understand the sephirot or any other kabbalistic teachings to understand the teachings of the Torah. You say I have not yet attained the wisdom of the sages, but know that the Torah was not given only to sages but to common folks like me. If a simple farmer or even a child cannot grasp the simple concept of monotheism–one God, אין עוד מלבדו–then it is not truth.
Lion, with respect, nobody is going to take what you say seriously when the first sentence you speak to Jim is entirely slanderous about being brainwashed. If you indeed have the truth, then you shouldn’t be afraid to truly listen and study the works of those “so called rabbis.” If they are wrong, it’ll be made manifest and truth will out. If they are correct, then that will be made manifest and truth will out. There is no need for slander of people’s intentions.
Jesus is not accepted by the Jewish people simply because he and (his students) revealed something different than what Jews experienced from G-d and agreed to follow at mount Sinai. THATS IT AND THATS ALL.
The NT hails Jesus as the “image of the invisible G-d, the firstborn of every creature.” as “he who existed in the form of G-d.” This teaching goes directly against Deuteronomy 4:14-15. Jews saw NO FORM on Sinai, NO FORM! Therefore Jesus is rejected! It’s not personal, it’s not to lay hate or blame, but G-D said to the people of Israel during the Exodus to follow everything they have heard THIS DAY (on Sinai) and not to depart from it right or left.
THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE BROUGHT IN OPPOSITION AGAINST JEWS IS THAT THEY ARE UNDERSTANDING THE TORAH’S WORDS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE MOST PLAIN AND SIMPLE MEANING OF THE TEXT.
ALL JEWS ARE SAYING IS THAT G-D WOULD NOT STAKE YOUR LIFE, YOUR ETERNITY (which he created btw) ON YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF RIDDLES/PARABLES, ESTOTERIC READINGS OF VARIOUS SCRIPTURES, OR ON MIRACLES SUPPOSEDLY PERFORMED BY ONE MAN AT ONE POINT IN TIME! THOSE THINGS ARE FILLED WITH AMBIGUITY, WHICH IS WHY EVEN YOUR OWN NT SAYS THEY CANT BE TRUSTED. READ BELOW!
Look at the ANTI CHRIST BEAST figure in Revelation 13. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the NAME OF BLASPHEMY.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw ONE OF HIS HEADS WERE WOUNDED TO DEATH; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: and all THE WORLD wondered after the beast.
4 And they WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON WHICH GAVE POWER unto the beast: and THEY WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
RIGHT IN THESE VERSES IT IS SHOWN THAT THE NATIONS ARE FOOLED INTO ACCEPTING SOMEBODY WHO DIES FROM A DEADLY WOUND AS THOUGH HE WERE G-D HMSELF!
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
THIS CHRISTIAN ANTI CHRIST FIGURE
1. Is miraculously healed from a deadly wound, causing THE NATIONS to marvel and stray after him.
2. CLAIMS TO BE G-D AND REQUIRES ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE TO ACCEPT THIS AS TRUE OR TO SUFFER.
3. PERFORMS LYING SIGNS, MIRACLES, AND WONDERS TO FOOL EVEN THE ELECT IF IT WERE POSSIBLE.
4. Daniel 7:25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High and WEAR DOWN THE SAINTS of the Highest One, and he will intend to make ALTERATIONS IN TIMES AND IN LAW; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
THERE IS AN ENTITY THAT HAS HISTORICALLY DONE ALL THESE THINGS, ITS CALLED THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION!
There were followers of Jesus who said that he was just a man, that he had two normal human parents, WHO OBSERVED TORAH AS DO OTHER JEWS. THESE PEOPLE WERE LABELED APOSTATES BY THE ORTHODOX CHURCH FOR REFUSING THE CREEDS THAT SAID JESUS WAS DIVINE!
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5411-ebionites
Shalom Con! Very interesting! You are confirming here that the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) is prophetic in nature. Indeed it is when you know that the corrupt church did not wanted to put this holy Book in their canons of Scriptures. We see the mission of Yohan the prophet having visions like Daniel. For me this is the book that authenticates the reality of the Resurrection and the reality of the Torah proven to be from the One Elohim as taught in the Divine Wisdom.
Now do not forget how this book starts:
”1 Revelations-manifestations of Yahushuo Messiah, that gave him the Elohim, to show to his born-slaves what must happen in speed, and he appeared having sent away his angel to his slave John, 2 which testified the word of the Elohim and the testimony of Yahushuo Messiah, how he saw. 3 Blessed the one interpreting and those hearing the words of this prophecy and guarding the ones within her having been marked; for the right-time nears.” (Revelation, chap. 1)
This Book has no contradiction with the Torah! It is completely reliable and pure in its expression. It is prophetic!!
Lion, no I’m not, you entirely miss the point. The point is that You are telling Jews to believe in Jesus in the way the NT presents him, (as God, as the chief means for Atonment, as messiah, etc.) instead of just letting Jews keep and observe the covenant that you both already agree is true, namely the Torah.
If Jesus lived in line with Torah ethics, then all a person needs is the Torah, get it? You don’t need more than that. You don’t need Jesus, gospels, miracles, man/gods, the death of a man, etc. you only need the mitzvot, and you need repentance when you break them. The book of revelation makes Christian theology utterly superfluous, that was my point, because it gives the confirmation and upholding the commandments as the berometer for truth, not other claims.
Dear Con, Shalom! Thank you for your well thought comments which I appreciate dearly.
Partly you are right of course. Even the last bishop of Rome (Joseph) came to some of your conclusion that us Yehudim are on the Covenant given at Sinai!! I will agree also.
There is a BUT, that is that the Prophets of Tanakh are than false prophets in your view to have prophecies the reunification of the TWO houses: Israel and Yehudah. To have reunification you need ‘rapprochement’, you need theological debate, you need comprehension of the other, you need leaders having the courage to confront the problem and all dilemmas.
My point is clear we must accomplish Malachi prophecy to bring back the hearts of the fathers to their sons and the sons to their fathers, For the consequence is very simple and straight forward : destruction of the Land for it written:
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the Land with a curse.”
My goal is to protect Israel from her enemies and the enemies are surrounding us wanting to destroy us. Only if the Messihim are brought back to the Torah and the Yehudim accept the Messiah of Israel can we build bridges and unite to defend the Land. You do not see the threat coming you are putting shades not to see the reality. Yes Hashem is our Protector and the Ruah holy our Fortress but his will must be accomplish
if not: ”Lest I come and strike the Land with a curse.”
Our enemy are in the hand of the Elohim everything is in his hand but opposing his will will have great consequence. At judgement day I will not bear responsibility for your blindness. Listen to the Torah and the Prophets one can not go without the other.
Okay, who are the “Messihim”? I never heard this term before. The only people who need to be brought back to the Torah are the non-observant Jews, because the laws of Torah apply only to Jews, not to Christians and other gentiles.
At judgment day you will not bear the consequences for anyone’s blindness but your own. Open up your eyes, my poor lost brother!
Lion, the unification of the House of Israel will not happen through rapprochement. The Ten Lost Tribes are so called because they are LOST. We do not know their identity. We cannot bring them back on our own. Hashem will bring them back at the time of the ge’ulah, the redemption. May it happen speedily in our days!
Todah Dina! Only HaShem knows. Ameen! And it is written by our sages that Eliyah will have the hability to know them! Let us hope for our redemption is near!!
Shabat Shalom!
Aha! So you do think you are Eliyahu haNavi, don’t you?
Dina Shalom! Before I go for Shabat, the Messihim are those who believes in the Messiah of Israel. Sorry but all Israel must observe the Shabat and the Torah not only Yehuda and the Yehudim. Among the Christians they are sons of Israel that must return to the obedience of the Shabat. IT is the fourth Commandment given to All Israel to All the tribes!
Jesus is not the Messiah of Israel. The Messihim, therefore, are Christians. Christians believe in Jesus. They do not need to be brought to Torah observance, and they will not accept the truth of the Torah as the Jews have preserved it until the arm of the Lord is revealed upon the nation of Israel and then all the world will know and understand that which they had not perceived (Isaiah 52-53). May it happen speedily in our days!
The Jews among the Christians who have abandoned Torah for idolatry must first reject their idols before they can begin to contemplate Sabbath observance. Otherwise, that would be like someone buying flowers for his wife while cheating on her.
HOW DOES YOUR NT TELL YOU WHAT SIN IS? 1Joh 3:4 (KJV) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Law: for SIN IS THE TEANSGRESSION OF THE LAW. In these verses he shows that righteousness is the opposite of Lawlessness (#458 in violation of the Law).
JEWS ARE GUILTY IN YOUR MIND FOR CLINGING TO THE WORDS OF THE LAW. EVEN YOUR BOOK TELLS YOU THAT IT IS GOOD TO TRUST IN THE LAW.
Lion,
In answer to your comments to Sharbano here:
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/09/14/messiah-letter-and-spirit/#comment-18990 .
You have attempted to set the argument again in terms that do not relate to their truth or not. Now, instead of contrasting Greek to Hebrew, you contrast Occidental to Middle Eastern. (Being French, of course, gives you a particular edge over Sharbano in understanding the Middle Eastern Mind.)
Unfortunately, you have mislabeled the contrast. This is not about Occidental thought versus Middle Eastern thought. It is a matter of Torah. It is a matter of the Word of God versus the word of man.
The context of a man wanting to bury his father is that the Torah commands one not to leave even criminals unburied. It also commands one to honor his parents. These are the Word of God, and one who performs them performs the Will of God.
You have tried to recast the context ignoring the broader context of Torah obligation for only the immediate context. Assuming Jesus could do no wrong, judging him where you are unqualified to do so, you apologize for him ignoring the commands of the Torah. You write: “He wants to dissuade frivolous followers.” Absurd. It is not frivolous to tend to one’s dead father. It is rather distressing that you would recast this man’s legitimate concern, which is in line with the Torah, as “frivolous”. Even the immediate context does not justify such an opinion.
The man who wished to follow Jesus was only fulfilling the Word of God. Jesus set up a new standard, not that one should obey God, but that one should place the word of man (the word of Jesus) over that of God. In Jesus’ mind, following him takes precedence over fulfilling the Will of God. The man’s concern was not frivolous, and if Jesus wished to cast it in that light, it is Jesus who incorrectly, and rather wickedly, contextualized the event. One can only hope that after that the man never followed Jesus, but fixed his attention firmly on his Creator and Master, the One who commanded Him from Sinai to honor his parents.
The conflict, therefore, is not between Occidental and Middle Eastern. It is between those who adhere to the Word of God and those who replace it with the word of man. It is between those who keep Torah and those who ignore it. It is between those that follow HaShem and those that follow Jesus. And no matter how many ways you attempt to dress up the worship of a man in Jewish terms, the ideas are still foreign to Torah. It is a poor trade one makes when he exchanges the Creator for the created.
Jim
Exactement, Monsieur Jim!
Dear Jim, Shalom! I appreciate like always you well thought comments. You are at least debating the issue not my character.
Now concerning Rabbi Yahshuo you could misinterpret his teaching but if you were right than the conclusion:
1)He is a false prophet diverting from the Torah
2)He is the author of the Torah and as the author He can judge what is priority over what is not being establish by HaShem in the order of Melki-Tsedek (My king righteous)
3)My interpretation is a possibility explaining the divergence of our Occidental mind versus the Middle Eastern mind not understanding the hyperbole
4)That behind the human form of Yahshuo is the DABAR ELOHIM the one having establish the Torah and as the Torah living Himself He is Lord and must be given priority in all
N.B.: It is true that I’m French bearing the French nationality but like I said in my previous post my two grandmothers are from the Hayat family my grandfather (mother side) was from Yerushala’im, my father Lebanese and I was born in Alexandria Egypt. Than yes I have the privilege to understand better the Middle Eastern mentality. I bear also the Canadian citizenship which exposed me to many mentalities understanding and loving all my brothers and sisters Jews or Gentiles, from the House of Yehudah and from the House of Israel…
Shabat Shalom Jim!
One point before Shabat. You said: “It is between those who adhere to the Word of God and those who replace it with the word of man. It is between those who keep Torah and those who ignore it. It is between those that follow HaShem and those that follow Jesus.”
Very true what you wrote as a true witness to the eternal Torah! But you are assuming that Yahshuo the Messiah is not the DABAR ELOHIM in the form of man. If He is than your conclusion is wrong. You will say that there is no such thing as an Elohim in the Flesh. Than tell me Jim how did Dabarim Elohim were communicated to the men of Eloah like Moshe and Abraham and Israel. The Elohim had to take some form to communicate His words (Dabarim).
How can the infinite Elohim communicate with what is finite?
How can the ALL-Powerful and Eternal Fire-LIGHT communicate with fragile so small beings?
The Elohim had to descend to our level to give His will. His words can not be heard with His voice without causing death and fear. Maimonides talked about the subject. Therefore that the Ruah Hakodesh conceived in Her Matrix a Son of Man One with the DABAR ELOHIM is certainly a possibility that we must be exploring especially after the Resurrection of the Messiah that authenticated His mission and teaching.
That brings us to the Schema: Schema Israel: YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH Ehad. Ehad does not mean ALONE with Himself. Where can LOVE be without COMMUNION?
YHWH FATHER begot HIS ETERNAL SEED-HIS DABAR (note in DABAR the word BAR=SON, where Dalet refers to DAVID=BELOVED: the BELOVED SON) in the Bosom of YHWH RUAH HAKODESH MOTHER.
That this Eternal DABAR came into our world to transform us to become:
“19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of the Elohim, 20 having been edified upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, of being of the utmost corner himself Messiah Yahushuo, 21 in whom each of the whole edification being assembled grows into a temple holy in the Lord; 22 in whom also you are being edified together into a perfect dwelling of the Elohim in Spirit.” (Ephesians, chap. 2)
The genius of Rabbi Saul comes from his encounter with the DABAR ELOHIM made flesh who died on a CROSS to kill the House of the CROSS (ESAU-EDOM-THE ROMANS) and make us by His Resurrection and through Holy Communion (holy cup and holy bread of Passover) sons of the One Elohim in spirit and truth.
The time of Moshe were for carnal minds having to be trained to obey.
The time of the Messiah was establish to transform carnal beings in spiritual ones.
The time of Yerushala’im descending from above will be to give the reign to the elect transformed in the ONE ELOHIM.
If you really really believe that G-d had to “descend to our level” in order to be understood then you cannot be getting your theology from G-d. That is, unless you have direct contact with G-d in some way.
Isn’t it interesting that most all your beliefs actually follow and are in parallel with many of the pagan religions of that time. This is Especially with the Father begot his eternal seed. You may as well pray to Zeus. This is just getting more and more bizarre. With everything you have brought to the table you have created another religion in your own name. This is the Applewhite Theorem exposed. Just as Paul created Xtianity, aka Paulinism, you have done the same.
Holy cup and holy bread of Pesach. See my point above. This is well beyond bizarre.
Your knowledge of Hebrew is very, very suspect, O Lion. You wrote dabarim Elokim, which is such incorrect grammar, no Hebrew speaker would make such a mistake. The correct term is “divrei Elokim.”
Please explain yourself, sir.
Lion, the problem with arguing that Jesus could establish new laws, or SUDDENLY EMPHASIZE some inner meaning, or such things, because he is “the word” is that Hashem already told Jews. “I the lord do not change.” “G-d is not a son of man, that HE SHOULD CHANGE HIS MIND.” Even if yeshua were the word of the father, he could not change the commandments as expressed at Sinai without violating his father’s own express promises and instructions to the Jewish people. The Christian reasoning makes G-d into a liar in every way. I don’t say that to be unkind.
Torah says Torah is sufficient, the Christian bible says Torah isn’t. In cases like that, JEWS ARE COMMANDED BY G-D AT SINAI TO LISTEN ONLY TO THE TORAH. It really is that simple.
COn peace to you! NO the true Gospel and the book of Revelation + Paul well translated and well understood confirms that the Torah is not dead but was made Flesh that is why we must obey the DABAR who came to accomplish the Torah and the Prophets for He is the DABAR(BELOVED-SON) Elohim in the flesh.
What He preaches his pure wisdom of the will of the FATHER. His understanding is spiritual as the heavens is above the earth. We are finite and only in the transformation of our intelligence and mind by an expansion in the Ruah Hakodesh can we incarnate the Torah in our hearts to know and taste how YHWH is good.
No, Lion, the Torah teaches that all we need to do is obey God by observing His commandments. The Torah does not teach anywhere that “only in the transformation of our intelligence and mind by an expansion in the Ruah Hakodesh can we incarnate the Torah in our hearts.” Can you support this ridiculous statement with Scriptural passages?
Lion. If Jesus were the Torah, Jews already have and keep the Torah, it is near to them.They don’t need Jesus to bring them a Torah they already keep. Jesus and your theology is irrelevant to the Jewish equation. We must accept the books of Moses Nothing Else. G-d is not a being of flesh, HE HAS NO FORM!!!!
No Lion, that is contradicted by this verse Deuteronomy 30:11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. Jews have followed the law faithfully for thousands of years. They do not need someone to bring it down for them.
Rabbi, below is a letter I recieved which I have copied below, and I’m wondering how I should answer it.
Premise 1 G-d CREATED ALL HUMANS (IN HIS IMAGE) WITH THE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE A LIFE THAT PLEASES HIM.
PREMISE 2: G-D IS ONE, IS UNIQUE, AND IS ALONE.
BECAUSE OF THIESE ATTRIBUTES OF UNIQUENESS HE DEMANDS EXCLUSIVE RECOGNITION FOR THESE ATTRIBUTES AND BECAUSE HE IS JEALOUS, (EXODUS 20:5 Deuteronomy 6:15) HE PUNISHES THOSE WHO DO NOT ACCEPT THESE PREMISES.
PREMISE 3 IN MANY WAYS HUMAN BEINGS HAVE EMULATED THESE BEHAVIORS INCLUDING JEALOUSY IN BELIEF THAT THEY ALONE ARE UNIQUE, ALONE, AND ONE. HUMANS HAVE LIKEWISE PUNISHED OTHER HUMANS FOR THEIR FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE THESE ATTRIBUTES IN THEMSELVES.
Premise 4 THROUGH SCIENTIFIC STUDY WE KNOW AS A FACT THAT ALL HUMANS SHARE COMMON BIOLOGICAL AND COGNITIVE TRAITS. MEANING ALL HUMANS ARE MADE OF THE SAME STUFF, AND PROCESS INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR WORLD THROUGH THE SAME MINDS AND SENSE ORGANS. ON A BIOLOGICAL LEVEL THEREFORE THERE ARE NO MEANINGFUL DISTINCTIONS ABOUT HOW WE PROCESS INFORMATION ABOUT OUR WORLD, OR DISTINCTIONS IN OUR POTENTIAL AS INDIVIDUALS TO RECEIVE IMPORTANT INFORMATION.
Premise 5: THERE IS A REWARD FOR OBEDIENCE TO G-D, AND A PUNISHMENT FOR DISOBEDIENCE TO G-D.
PREMISE 6: HUMANS LIKEWISE INFLICT PUNISHMENT AND BESTOW REWARD FOR OBEDIENCE TO THEIR DIRECTIVES.
PREMISE 7: G-d according to scripture chose one specific nation to be his special portion, and has favored THIS NATION WITH UNIQUE WISDOM AND NATIONAL REVELATION over the other human creatures he has created. IN OTHER WORDS, SOME HUMANS WERE NOT DIRECTLY PRIVY TO THIS UNIQUE INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCE AT THE SAME TIME, AND IN THE SAME WAY AS THE CHOSEN GROUP WAS.
PREMISE 8: HUMANS LIKEWISE CHOOSE GROUPS ONE OVER THE OTHER ON WHOM THEY BESTOW FAVOR SOMETIMES TO DETRIMENTAL EFFECT.
Conclusion G-D IS THE SOLE RESPONSIBLE PARTY AND CAUSE OF HIS OWN DISPLEASURE FOR HAVING MADE US LIKE HIMSELF WITH COMMON ATTRIBUTES AND IMAGE AND IS THEREFORE FURTHER UNJUST FOR THE PUNISHMENT HE INFLICTS WHEN WE ACT AS HE HIMSELF DOES.
Concerned Reader I am not sure if I would answer it – but since it is here in the public eye I will make a remark and that is that all of God’s “jealousy” and “punishment” only exist in an arena that is nothing but an expression of His kindness. God is the Creator of our heart and it is a just jealousy when we give out hearts to another. We live in His world and if we violate His command we can expect that things won’t work out for us. If a person would be in a similar situation – it would be just for him/her to react that way. But if a person simply wants to be jealous and expect people to listen to him/her – that is not emulating God.
If I may just give an example of a just jealousy, it would be a just jealousy in the case of a husband discovering the adultery of his wife. That is the analogy of our relationship with our Creator: it is adulterous to give our devotion to another entity.
Hi Con,
I hope it’s okay for me to jump in and give some few cents more. Your friend’s premises are false. For example, he draws a false comparison. A better comparison would look like this:
Premise One: God is one, there is no Creator beside Him.
Premise Two: Humans think they are one, there are no other humans beside them.
Of course, premise two then becomes not only ridiculous, it’s still not a true comparison, because I had to add the word “think.”
It seems to me your friend did something intellectually dishonest, although I’m sure it was unintentional, because of his preexisting bias. He started with his conclusion and then developed his premises. I assume this to be the case not only because of his false premises but also because of his cynicism in expressing the belief that all humans ill treat each other. Common sense observation confirms that many humans live their lives according to God’s commandments, which includes love your neighbor.
I could do the same thing as your friend, with different results:
Premise One: God is just and merciful.
Premise Two: God commands our obedience and punishes or rewards accordingly.
Conclusion: God would not command us to do that which are not capable of doing, nor would he punish us for our inability to obey His commands.
Dina, the point he was telling me further on later in the letter was, according to him,
“God made us like himself, in his image. While God hails his jealousy, his uniqueness as virtuous and just, our jealousy or uniqueness is seen as sin, but he is the one who made us that way in his image (to share aspects of his character) in the first place. Jealousy and uniqueness are characteristic of G-d’s own nature/will, but it’s wrong that we share it in our nature/will.”
I think he’s saying that Hashem is inconsistent somehow because he himself has traits that we share likewise, (being made in his image) but to express these traits is just for Hashem, but unjust for us humans? He said,
“It’s ok for God to do things that it’s not ok for us to do, so where does morality have any real meaning? Is something only correct because G-d says it is, or because something is intrinsically correct?”
Like I said, it’s an extension of Euthyphro’s Dillema, and I don’t know what to make of it.
Con, Euthyphro’s Dilemma is, in my opinion, a false dilemma because the answer is both. What God commands us to do is moral because He said so AND He commands us to do it because it is moral.
Your friend’s premise is false because God did not make us like Him in every aspect. Your friend simply chose the aspects that seem similar to him because they match his conclusion (which was his starting point). For example, we are not omniscient, eternal, omnipotent, etc.
Does that help?
It seems like this is a variant of Euthyphro’s Dilemma, and was just wondering if there was an answer to it.
Shalom to all! Your definition of the Elohim that you call by a foreign language ‘God’ is NOT the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov. My forefathers converse with the One Elohim and knew His holy Name and pray with invoking His holy Name. Since actually the beginning the holy seed of Adam call on the holy Name: YHWH
Genesis 4 v.26: And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh. Then men began to call in name YHWH
And without any doubt Eliyahu call in the Name:
1King 18 v.24: Then you call in name of your elohechem, and I will call in name YHWH and the Elohim who answers by fire, He is the Elohim.” So all the people answered and said, “It is well spoken.”
And with the glorious David (Beloved) blessing the people:
1 Chronicles 16 v.2: And when David had finished offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in name YHWH
You can not even call the One True Elohim by His Name for your are unworthy to do so for having rejected the DABAR ELOHIM and the RUAH ELOHIM. For without the Ruah Hakodesh none would dare to invoke and call in name YHWH.
You hide in the false belief that you are Torah observant but you deform the faith of our forefathers in the Messiah and in the fact the ELOHIM is a plural expressing Communion. From the beginning of Genesis when the Elohim said: LET US make man in OUR image. For the One Elohim, One does not equal Alone but refers to a Communion illustrated in Genesis 18:
”18 Then YHWH appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing near by; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “Adonai, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.”
Compare to Moshe, Abraham vision was made in meekness not to impress carnal minds having gone out of slavery. For YHWH manifest Himself the way He wants to whom He wants not having to ask permission to so-called righteous persons who want to box in Him to fit their carnal minds. For who can understand the Eternal only those who humble themselves in front Him and do His will express in the DABAR ELOHIM those will enjoy the Holy Face of the BELOVED ONE.
For one thing His Name means past, present and future G-d was, is, and always will be. He transcends time. By using His Name frivolously your are confining Him to the present alone. It is disrespectful. By using “Hashem” we are realizing we are finite, in the present whereas He transcends Us. Would anyone go up to the Queen and say , “Hi Liz”. True Awe and Respect comes from giving honor.
Your lack of that respect is shown by inferring the three “men” are gods, as is the Xtian belief. Since you follow the same teachings as Xtians it thus corroborates an ignorance in Torah knowledge.
Sharbano Shalom! In Genesis 18, the English translation says three men but the word in Hebrew is not ADAM but אֲנָשִׁ֔ים ANASHIM which could be translated: ‘each’ , ‘each ones’, ‘person’ … Obviously if you study carefully the word in Hebrew you will see the true inner meaning: אֲנָ – שִׁ֔ – ים that here אֲנָ = I compressed with SHIN (in reference to SHADDAI) and ים -YAM = OCEAN (abundance…).
Here in the context only the Hebrew Scriptures can render the proper signification which validates the ORTHODOX THEOLOGY.
Your god view Sharbano is a Dictator-ALONE with Himself with no love… are you serving the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac,Israel, David and Eliyahu or a so-called self proclaimed god here Heylel the fallen angel who rebelled against the Plan of Eloah?
Obviously the prophetic words of Yohan are coming to light. Bless is YHWH ELOHIM in his DABAR!!
Sharbano may the LORD have mercy on you! You do not realize that your view comes against the three passages of Holy Scriptures that I provided you, where Seth, Abraham, Eliyahu and David invoke the LORD by His NAME. Are they frivolous? You argument is so lame! You try to rationalize you incompetency in the matter. Of course you must do it for your teaching are against the true Torah of Holy Scriptures and the true Tradition.
Here you are walking on eggs. And yes HaShem will not permit you to pronounce his Name for the Ruah Elohim will punish your frivolous attitude and your bashing of the DABAR ELOHIM. Repent if you want to enter Shama’im or you will be treated like the Muslim and all sects of the One Eye serving their god-Dictator.
Last point and the prophet Yohan warned us about you false Yehudi for you arrogate the glorious title of Yehudi but you lack the real substance of a true Yehudi. Blind blind men!!
Eli stop your pontificating. Deal with people’s statements, analyze, then comment. This is not a pulpit for you.
Con Shalom! Can’t stand the truth. I’m giving testimony here and yes fire burns especially those who opposes the will of YHWH Elohim. You like your intellectual debates based on your view. Here I come to give Shama’im view for the truth has been trampled by those who were suppose to guard it. The punishment for this transgression brought my People to a 2 thousand punishment where their blindness will be remove in pain having to pass through the absurdities of their acceptance of the false-messiah coming. You have been warned!
P.S.: Eliyahu was making fun of Baal priest. Eliyahu invoke in name YHWH for He knew the Name of his Elohim EL-ELYON our Beloved. Turn your hearts to the truth not to your heart of stone and wood… And HE will save you!!
You have not engaged in anyone’s counter arguments, all you are doing is preaching. Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true. Answer the arguments about Deuteronomy 4 (G-d has no form,) yet you teach that Jesus is the image of G-d, made flesh. THATS AGAINST TORAH!
Shalom and light to you Con!
You do not know how to read. You must be tired. For I mad an explicit reference to Genesis 18 when Abraham encounters 3 beings undefined… See what I wrote or may be you want me to edit for you again:
Eliyah Lion says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:18 am
Shalom to all! Your definition of the Elohim that you call by a foreign language ‘God’ is NOT the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov. My forefathers converse with the One Elohim and knew His holy Name and pray with invoking His holy Name. Since actually the beginning the holy seed of Adam call on the holy Name: YHWH
Genesis 4 v.26: And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh. Then men began to call in name YHWH
And without any doubt Eliyahu call in the Name:
1King 18 v.24: Then you call in name of your elohechem, and I will call in name YHWH and the Elohim who answers by fire, He is the Elohim.” So all the people answered and said, “It is well spoken.”
And with the glorious David (Beloved) blessing the people:
1 Chronicles 16 v.2: ”And when David had finished offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in name YHWH”
You can not even call the One True Elohim by His Name for your are unworthy to do so for having rejected the DABAR ELOHIM and the RUAH ELOHIM. For without the Ruah Hakodesh none would dare to invoke and call in name YHWH.
You hide in the false belief that you are Torah observant but you deform the faith of our forefathers in the Messiah and in the fact the ELOHIM is a plural expressing Communion. From the beginning of Genesis when the Elohim said: LET US make man in OUR image.
For the One Elohim, One does not equal Alone but refers to a Communion illustrated in Genesis 18:
”18 Then YHWH appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing near by; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “Adonai, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.”
Compare to Moshe, Abraham vision was made in meekness not to impress carnal minds having gone out of slavery. For YHWH manifest Himself the way He wants to whom He wants not having to ask permission to so-called righteous persons who want to box in Him to fit their carnal minds. For who can understand the Eternal only those who humble themselves in front Him and do His will express in the DABAR ELOHIM those will enjoy the Holy Face of the BELOVED ONE.
Eliyah Lion says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:54 am
Sharbano may the LORD have mercy on you! You do not realize that your view comes against the three passages of Holy Scriptures that I provided you, where Seth, Abraham, Eliyahu and David invoke the LORD by His NAME. Are they frivolous? You argument is so lame! You try to rationalize you incompetency in the matter. Of course you must do it for your teaching are against the true Torah of Holy Scriptures and the true Tradition.
Here you are walking on eggs. And yes HaShem will not permit you to pronounce his Name for the Ruah Elohim will punish your frivolous attitude and your bashing of the DABAR ELOHIM. Repent if you want to enter Shama’im or you will be treated like the Muslim and all sects of the One Eye serving their god-Dictator.
Last point and the prophet Yohan warned us about you false Yehudi for you arrogate the glorious title of Yehudi but you lack the real substance of a true Yehudi. Blind blind men!!
Eliyah Lion says:
June 7, 2015 at 8:56 am
Sharbano Shalom! In Genesis 18, the English translation says three men but the word in Hebrew is not ADAM but אֲנָשִׁ֔ים ANASHIM which could be translated: ‘each’ , ‘each ones’, ‘person’ … Obviously if you study carefully the word in Hebrew you will see the true inner meaning: אֲנָ – שִׁ֔ – ים that here אֲנָ = I compressed with SHIN (in reference to SHADDAI) and ים -YAM = OCEAN (abundance…)
Here in the context only the Hebrew Scriptures can render the proper signification which validates the ORTHODOX THEOLOGY.
Your god view Sharbano is a Dictator-ALONE with Himself with no love… are you serving the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac,Israel, David and Eliyahu or a so-called self proclaimed god here Heylel the fallen angel who rebelled against the Plan of Eloah?
Obviously the prophetic words of Yohan are coming to light. Bless is YHWH ELOHIM in his DABAR!!
Shalom Con! Ignorance is not a sin but when it is voluntary it starts too for you are AGAINST TORAH:
26 Then Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Tell me wise one: what does OUR image mean???
Also it is not written ”He has no form” but most English translation says ”You saw no form” You are distorting Scriptures here is the Hebrew:
כִּי לֹא רְאִיתֶם כָּל־תְּמוּנָה (Deuteronomy 4) which can be translated: ‘For ye did not see any form…’
The form of Elohim is not the form of man that is right but the form of Elohim who can take human form in appearance to manifest himself like with Abraham vision see Genesis 18 and all Tanakh for those who know how to read and do not distort Scriptures.
I’m destroying your mind based on your own idol and scheme of thinking… Submit to the Dabar Elohim you are nothing compare to Him…
Eli lion, EVEN IF HASHEM HYPOTHETICALLY HAD A PHYSICAL OR METAPHYSICAL FORM, ITS IRRELEVANT TO THE QUESTION OF WORSHIP BECAUSE HE DID NOT SHOW US A FORM ON MT SINAI BY WHICH TO KNOW HIM, AND SO HE DIDNT COMMAND ISRAEL TO SERVE HIM THROUGH AN IMAGE OF ANY SHAPE. G-D WANTS YOU TO KNOW HIS WILL, THE COMMANDMENTS, NOT HIS NATURE OR SHAPE. G-D COMMANDS US NOT TO SERVE HIM IN ANY FORM BECAUSE IF YOU SERVE A FORM, YOU FORGET THE MESSAGE.
NOTICE HOW QUICK YOU ARE TO INSULT US WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT READING OF THE SAME TORAH YOU CLAIM TO FOLLOW AND LIVE?
JEWS SERVE HASHEM THE FATHER ONLY AS HE EXPLICITLY COMMANDED THEM.
JEWS DO NOT USE IMAGES OF ANY SHAPE UNDER HEAVEN TO RELATE TO HASHEM THROUGH PRAYER OR FUNDAMENTAL SERVICE, JUST AS HE COMMANDED THEM.
YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH UNAMBIGUOUS COMMANDS THAT WE KNOW G-D GAVE.
WHAT SENSE WOULD IT MAKE FOR G-D TO SAY IN Deuteronomy 4:16 SO THAT YOU DO NOT BECOME CORRUPT and make for yourselves an idol, an image of ANY SHAPE, whether formed like A MAN or a woman, ONLY LATER TO COME TO ISRAEL APPEARING AS A HUMAN THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER? ITS A FOREIGN IDEA FROM THE STANDPIINT IS F MITZVOT AND SERVICE.
Shalom Con! Writings in capital letters does not make your point it only shows your lack of self-control. My point is very clear the so-called Judaism that you are talking about is not the same as in the time of Abraham nor Moshe nor David nor Eliyahu. All 4 four knew the Name: YHWH. It is very clear in the Hebrew Scriptures and you can recheck and confirm if you are honest.
Now my point about Abraham encounter with YHWH is clear. The three ANASHIM are an icon(image) of the Reality of the Holy One. Your theology presents ELOHIM being Alone with Himself like Dictator wanting to be obeyed. Dictator like monstors who persecuted my people could take this type god as the god of war imposing his view on the world. There is no Loving Relations in this concept of your god. It looks like Heylel wanting to be adore and serve.
In Genesis 1 that you did not address it is written: 26 Then Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
I asked you what does mean in OUR image???
You did Not respond may be you can not… for from up start your theology is broken and flaw and deficient… Note two words that you are allergic to OUR and IMAGE: OUR why Elohim employs the ‘OUR’? Even Elohim infers a plural but you will not address it. Also note the second word that you are very allergic ‘IMAGE’. Why employing this word when later on images are forbidden?
Back to your theology of the DICTATOR GOD… That is not Elohei of Abraham nor Isaac nor Yaakov nor Elohei of the Messihim nor the Messiah… Eloheinu is an Elohim in Communion for HE is LOVE The Supreme LIGHT and POWER who creates IN LOVE and IN TRUTH.
The Schema Israel: YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH EHAD. You will love YHWH Eloheikha of all your heart, soul and might. For LOVE is the Key here. THE UNITY of ELOHIM implies a plurality of PERSONS in Communion=ONE. There is no Unity when someone is alone with himself… Capiche!!
LET US make man in OUR IMAGE. Here the Image is the Messiah the Eternal Dabar made flesh who appears through out Israel History for He is Master of Time and Space.
I could continue but the Orthodox Theology is about LOVE-RELATIONS… Your theology is about slavery and Dictator wanting to be obeyed. What is the difference between you and the Muslim … unite with them and combat the ELOHIM OF LOVE of Christianity which brought many beautiful things: Hospital, Universities, Social implication, Charities, Caring for the poor the marginalized… That is the true Religion not your god of war that you took from Babylon like the Muslims always fighting each others with no goal for Justice thinking that you are the best. THAT IS NOT TRUE JUDAISM!! The sect of the Christians was the most fruitful in human history 2 thousands years of reign as prophesied by Yohan.
Now we are starting another age where Israel will reunite with Yehudah. That will be the Messianic Era!!
For the record Lion, My family is both Catholic and protestant, I was baptized at 8. I know about orthodox Christian theology, in fact you can find many of my posts defending the same arguments you present here on this very blog.
The point is that this Christian theology is only drawn by inference from the Torah, its not explicitly taught anywhere that Israel is commanded by G-d to worship hashem with that theological understanding. It is explicitly stated however that Israel didn’t see a form.
Tell me Lion, your NT says G-d is love correct? In Orthodox Christian theology, this notes the relations of communion between persons. That said, if G-d is love, is this limited to just one definition of love? Is it Eros? Agape? or other kinds also? Is it all of the different definitions of love?
Being made in G-d’s image doesn’t have to mean a picture, or a physical representation, or some specific doctrine any more than the statement G-d is love is limited to only one definition of love. To say that G-d is only three persons in one is just as much limitation of G-d as is your dictator example.
peace to you
Eli Lion I am not at all against the Torah, but your preconceived theology is coloring your reading of the bible. I mean this respectfully btw.
Those 3 men you mentioned are explicitly identified as ANGELS, that is as messengers of G-d, and. So, are BY DEFINITION distinct from G-d himself. ALSO ITS BEEN POUNTED OUT TO YOU, THAT NO COMMAND IS GIVEN ON SINAI FOR JEWS TO PRAY TO OR TO WORSHIP THESE ANGELIC BEINGS, ONLY THE FATHER ARE JEWS COMMANDED TO SERVE. ALSO, YOUR OWN NT IS AGAINST YOU ON YOUR USE OF THESE PASSAGES IN PARTICULAR.
HEBREWS 13:2 Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to ANGELS without knowing it. According to the author of Hebrews it was angels who visited Abraham, NOT HASHEM. IF IT WAS CHRIST THE FATHER AND SPIRIT THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS WOULD HAVE SAID SO.
You go into great detail about your supposed theology of angels that secretly really are Hashem, OR THE PRE INCARNATE CHRIST somehow, don’t you?
Collosians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in FALSE HUMILITY and the WORSHIP OF ANGELS disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with IDLE NOTIONS by their UNSPURITUAL MIND.
Actually lion, I have a degree in history and comparative religions, so I have quite a thorough idea of where you are getting your theological ideas from, but those ideas are not rooted in a plain and simple nor straightforward reading of the text of the Books of Moses, so, they are not Torah, nor are those readings of yours authoritative to follow.
Perhaps, rather than advocating the worship of AN APPARENTLY SUPERNATURAL BEING THAT YOU CAN FIND SUCH AS THOSE MEN WHO VISITED ABRAHAM, (INCLUDING YOUR DEVOTION TO JESUS,) you should focus on what we all know unambiguously to be true, namely that we should worship and serve the father only as scripture EXPLICITLY commands?
Also according to your NT you are walking a dangerous line in advocating service to a being THAT you know FOR SURE isn’t the father. AGAIN, LOOK AT REVELATION 13!
Shalom Con! Quoting Paul does not prove your point it only reinforce mine confirming the validity of the Christians Scriptures that we frankly do not need to build the Orthodox Theology. But of course using the genius of Saul is a plus and the prophetic Revelation of Yohan.
My worship goes to my Beloved YHWH ELOHIM in His Dabar and in His Ruah. For without the Human reach of Elohim in His Dabar we could enter in Communion with Him. Plain and simple!
Now Moshe said that or this. Moshe got his revelation from the Dabar also addressed to carnal minds trained in slavery. The medicine was rough but needed. By the way the Moshe story does not prove Judaism. All the plagues done or the parting of the waters a mighty Angel could have done it. That is not the proof of Judaism. For sure to carnal minds to hear a Voice non-human is frighting but that do not proves that THE ELOHIM of Abraham was behind those manifestations.
For you criticizes the Miracles of Yahshuo as magic and not to be believe actually compare to Moshe one is more impressive and scary than the Other. Yahshuo is more gentle and humble caring for the poor and the sick and doing everything not to scare but to comfort and unite. It is only the jealousy of the followers of the Moshe miracles that are fighting him for His teachings is a contrast to Moshe the Levite violent and coming from the court of the Pagan Pharaoh… Hmmm! If I was not Yehudi I could destroy Judaism but I will not because Salvation comes from the Yehudim like Yahshuo the Master taught his disciples. You see Yahshuo defends and accomplish Judaism giving the noble side of the Religion not the Levite side that Yaakov the patriarch in Genesis 49 prophesied against:
5
“Simeon and Levi are brothers;
Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
6
Let not my soul enter their council;
Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
For in their anger they slew a man,
And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
7
Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
And their wrath, for it is cruel!
I will divide them in Jacob
And scatter them in Israel.
And for Eliyah he will purify those Levite friends of power and influence for it is written in Malachi hanavi:
2
“But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire
And like launderers’ soap.
3
He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the Lord
An offering in righteousness.
Ameen!!
Pardon, but I have never mentioned the miracles of Jesus, nor have I insulted Jesus, i respect Jesus as a 1st century teacher. You said that “we don’t need the NT to BUILD the theology.” Build there is the operative word lion. If G-d wanted Israel to worship him as Father, son and holy spirit, why didn’t he tell them that clearly on Sinai? Signs and miracles do not prove a prophet, a Torah true message proves a prophet.
You can testify all you want and profess your theology but your own Xtian writings testify of their falsehood. It’s as simple as the words of Stephen, who, filled with the same spirit you are, testified in numerous errors. If HE couldn’t get the record straight how much more so are you in error in all things.
Hi Monsieur Lion,
You are missing the point that Con and I are making, which is that even if your premise is true that God is incarnate (it isn’t, but let’s just say for argument’s sake) and even if it’s true that the incidents you cited prove this, we are not allowed to worship God as such according to the teaching of Deuteronomy 4.
Of course, this poses a problem for you, so you seek to downplay the significance of the Sinai encounter and even question its credibility: “Now Moshe said that or this…to carnal minds trained in slavery…the Moshe story does not prove Judaism…For sure to carnal minds to hear a Voice non-human is frighting but that do not proves that THE ELOHIM of Abraham was behind those manifestations.”
So the question is, do you believe the Torah comes from Hashem, or not? Because Hashem Himself said that the reason he will speak to Moshe in front of B’nei Yisrael is so that they will believe. Hashem also said that these great miracles that you pooh-poohed were performed on a national level to bolster the credibility of Judaism, because no other religion will ever claim a national encounter of the Divine or miracles on such a scale. Behold:
Exodus 19:9: “Hashem said to Moshe, Behold! I come to you in the thickness of the cloud, so that the people will hear as I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever.”
Deuteronomy 4:32-35: [The context here is that Moses is addressing the last generation of Jews “at the end of days.”] For inquire now regarding the early days that preceded you, from the day when God created man on earth…Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fire as you have heard, and survived? Or has any god ever miraculously come to take for himself a nation from amidst a nation, with challenges, with signs, and with wonders, and with war, and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with greatly awesome deeds, such as everything that Hashem your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? ***You have been shown in order to know that Hashem, he is the God! There is none beside Him!***
Eliyah Lion says: God speaking to the nation of Israel, the Exodus, and all the attendant miracles do not prove Judaism.
God says: I took you out of Egypt with great signs and wonders and spoke to you from the fire so you should know and understand that I alone am God. I spoke to Moshe in front of you so you should believe in him forever.
Who should Dina believe, Eliyah Lion or God? It’s a no brainer.
God also said that in all of Israel there never again arose a prophet as great as Moses (Deuteronomy 34:10). Christians claim that Jesus was a greater prophet than Moses. Jesus came along and taught a radically different way to worship God that contradicts Deuteronomy 4 and 13. It is fair, then, to demand at least the same standard of proof from Jesus that God granted for Moses. If God was going to radically change the way He expected us to worship Him, then He would have spoken to Jesus in front of the whole people of Israel.
Instead, Jesus did not even fulfill the sign he promised the Pharisees according to your own scripture. Furthermore, he taught a worship that was unknown to our fathers (which Deuteronomy 13 forbids) and a worship that was not taught at Sinai (as Deuteronomy 4 explains).
The time has come, O Lion, to face the facts.
Shalom Dina!
The scale of the miracles can not build a faith. That is not the lesson of Sinai. It was to convey fear of the NAME which is the beginning of Wisdom. For a slave mentality takes time to be reformed. What is amazing is how you are attached to this way of thinking when you see clearly that Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov do not interact with YHWH like children brought in slavery and with an Egyptian mentality.
I’m not a slave sister but a proud member of the race of David, son of the Elyon and partaker to the Reign to come. You do not know me. I know way much better than you do the Religion of our forefathers. It is you who are attached to Sinai instead of the Promise Land and Heavenly Yerushala’im.
Now a miracle in the likeness of the scale of Sinai was performed in the beginning of the 20th century in July 1917 called the Miracle of the Sun:
”As early as July 1917 it was claimed that the Virgin Mary had promised a miracle for the last of her apparitions on October 13, so that all would believe. What happened then became known as the “Miracle of the Sun”. A huge crowd, variously estimated between 30,000 and 100,000,[9] including newspaper reporters and photographers, gathered at the Cova da Iria. The incessant rain had ceased and there was a thin layer of cloud. Lúcia, seeing light rising from the lady’s hands and the sun appearing as a silver disk, called out “look at the sun”. She later had no memory of saying this.[6] Witnesses later spoke of the sun appearing to change colors and rotate like a wheel.[10] Witnesses gave widely varying descriptions of the “sun’s dance”. Poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes (with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita), reported that the solar phenomenon was visible up to forty kilometers away.[10]
Columnist Avelino de Almeida of O Século (Portugal’s most influential newspaper, which was pro-government in policy and avowedly anti-clerical),[6] reported the following: “Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws – the sun ‘danced’ according to the typical expression of the people.”[11] Eye specialist Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaper Ordem reported “The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat”.[12] The special reporter for the October 17, 1917 edition of the Lisbon daily, O Dia, reported the following, “…the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy purple light was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds…The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands…people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they.”[13]
No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was recorded by scientists at the time.[6] Not all witnesses reported seeing the sun “dance”. Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[14][15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Miracle_of_the_Sun
What can we conclude of this?
Lion, I will tell you what we can conclude. We can conclude that you did not address the Scriptures I cited at all but instead stayed on your perch on your high horse and told me how morally superior you are to me.
We can also conclude that seeing lights in the sky means nothing. I, for one, did not observe it, nor have I ever heard of it. Anyone can interpret it any way he wants. Furthermore, lights in the sky do not tell me how to worship God. God tells me how to worship God. I listen to God and not to obscure reports about lights in the sky.
Do you fully understand the point being made by the mitzvah IN DEUTTERONOMY 4 lion? DO YOU SEE WHY IMAGES OF ANY SHAPE ARE FORBIDDEN BY TORAH? If G-d physically came down to speak to humans, dwelled, slept, ate, etc. with them, it would prompt humans to behave corruptly AND PROUDLY CAUSING HARM. For G-d to become human gives people a reason to feel in control of G-d, to put a patent on G-d, to deal corruptly. FOR EXAMPLE, IF G-D HAD BREAKFAST AT DENNYS, (THE AMERICAN RESTERAUNT CHAIN,) IT WOULD GIVE THAT RESTERAUNT CHAIN A DELUSION OF GRANDEUR TO BE OPPRESSIVE TO OTHERS.
G-D TOLD ISRAEL NOT TO MAKE OR SERVE HIM IN SHAPES OF ANY KIND (AND DIDNT SHOW THEM ONE,) BECAUSE TO DO SO WOULD BE VERY DANGEROUS. JUST LOOK AT THE EVILS IN THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION? THESE PEOPLE SUPPISEDLY WITH DIRECT ACCESS TO G-D INCARNATE HAVE PURPETRATED GREAT EVILS AND VIOENCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DELUSION OF GRANDUOUR THAT G-D IS THEIR EXCLUSIVE DOMAIN AND FRIEND, HE LOVES ONLY THEM. THATS WHY JUDAISM READS THE MITZVAH AS IT DOES.
AN INCARNATION WOULD BE LIKE PLACING THE OCEAN IN A BOTTLE AND THEN SOMEONE TAKING THE BOTTLE AND SELLING THE WATER AS IF HE OWNED IT.
NOBODY OWNS THE OCEAN, IT CANNOT BE CONTAINED, IT CANNOT BE SOLD, IT IS NOT THE DOMAIN OF ANY ONE GROUP.
Shalom Con!
Deuteronomy 4 has been broken by Moshe himself when he constructed the ark of the alliance by building cherubim on top of the ark. He was may be… tested by the Elohim and failed… No images from above or on earth or from below. The interdiction did not hold… Why??
Still you did not respond to Genesis 1… The meaning of in OUR IMAGE… Come on you should answer correctly if you know and cherish the truth…
Why Elohim uses this word when the Torah forbids it later? Does Elohim does not know the future or that He contradicts Himself? What or who is this Image??
“Deuteronomy 4 has been broken by Moshe himself when he constructed the ark of the alliance by building cherubim on top of the ark.”
What? Moses was commanded to build an Ark of the testimony by G-d. Also, nobody in the bible prays to the Ark.
Even if G-d commands that something be used by people, like the temple, nowhere is a commandment given to worship or serve the temple. Further, G-d commanded that Israel gaze at the brass serpent to be healed from snake bites and to heal their transgression, but that brass serpent was destroyed as an idol because Israel worshiped it alongside hashem.(2 Kings 18:4) Using your argument, why was Israel punished for worshiping the gold calf? (Ezekiel 1:6-7) There is calflike imagery in Ezekiel’s vision of the throne/chariot.
Shalom Sharbano!
Like always with you not able to defend any points you shoot the messenger … You can not answer the clear contradiction. That is a serious challenge wise guy. No carved images from above must be made… And later the cherubim are made above the ark.
You did not respond to Genesis 1 that you did not address for it is written: 26 Then Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
I asked what does mean in OUR image???
But you can not answer for only an united mind can answer apparent contradictions. But divided and corrupted mind like yours can not explain intelligently what is so obvious for they are blinded by the reject of the Dabar Elohim.
Lion, three people explained to you about the cherubim (Con, Sharbano, and I). You are not listening. What is the point of debate if you only talk but don’t listen?
Lion, you wrote: “But you can not answer for only an united mind can answer apparent contradictions. But divided and corrupted mind like yours can not explain intelligently what is so obvious for they are blinded by the reject of the Dabar Elohim.”
You keep writing insulting things like that but then you lecture us for being insulting. Just pointing it out, because everyone knows that when you can’t win a debate you engage in ad hominem attacks.
Just something to keep in mind.
Dina Shalom! No Dina it has no been answered. The contradiction is still there.
Deut.4 say no carved images of nothing…. and down the road we see the carved images of the two cherub on top of the ark.
Deut.4 did not say you can carved images that you will not worship… BUT NO CARVED IMAGES AT ALL… There is a contradiction. The fact that you evade to the border of lying is a sign that you can not resolve the contradiction.
If you do with an intelligent and elaborate answer I will respect you more, but in the mean time you sound like Sharbano and like the Taliban with their fanatics views. But you for worse you distort Holy Scriptures.
I know that the truth hurts but if you are honest you will address this point with seriousness and honesty. Call the chief rabbis if you want and personally I feel that they will take the challenge because of their love of the holy Torah. I hope!!
You are a hateful human being to compare me to the murderous Taliban who deny medical care and education to women, stone women to death who are merely suspected of adultery, behead people on the merest pretext, engage in horrific torture, and in general commit unspeakable atrocities against their fellow human beings.
I no longer wish to dialogue with you because you are a hater. I believe you are an anti-Semite, and I believe you should be blocked from commenting further on this blog.
I have nothing more to say to you, sir.
Good bye.
Dina Generally I block people who think that they are prophets but this fellow is just too entertaining.
Okay, Rabbi B. That put a smile on my face. Still, I think I’ll sit back and listen rather than actually participate.
Shalom Dina!
Evading the truth by emotional reaction does not give you credit to your cause and accusing a brother of anti-Semite is a non-sense ( for I’m a Semite) which proves that the contradiction that I have brought can not be answered properly which reinforces my conviction that something is very very flaw in your Theology.
My comparisons holds for I see my country Israel being taken by serious fanatics movement that can bring us to serious dangers. The world is turning against us and you can see it. We need to unite with our Christian brothers and reunite the tribes to protect Israel against our enemies. Open your eyes!!
Fanatics only polarize and build walls of hate. I’m trying to tare down those walls and you accuse me of hate when it is you who hates the others specially those who do not share your view by continuing the divide between brothers and sisters.
P.S.: Fire burns put to an humble hearts it purifies to give better sight. Love you!!
Devarim 4 broken by Moshe?? You are a Fraud E.L., don’t know Hebrew and wholly ignorant of Torah. This is what happens when one follows the idolatry of their imaginations and call it a spirit. It reminds me of King Menashe who said to Rav Ashi in a dream, that he would gather his cloak in order to run to worship idols. That was how strong idol worship was that distorted Torah in order to follow the images of idols.
I think he was making a rhetorical point Sharbano. He’s asking, “If G-d hates images, why the Ark and Cherubim? Nobody worships the Cherubim lion.
“could take this type god as the god of war imposing his view on the world.” Ask yourself a question Lion. When in history have religious Jews imposed their views on the world?
It is manifestly true to any student of history that it is Christianity that has a well documented history of forcing its beliefs on others with violence.
1. Native Americans
2. Jews
3. Persecuted other Christian sects out of existence etc.
your religion has a well documented history of persecution that cant be ignored.
On to your question, the “our image” passage could be G-d talking to angels, or simply employing a plural of majesty. Royal figures often speak this way.
Notice, carefully however, that I said that even if you could prove your premise, it wouldn’t change how G-d told Israel to worship him. No icons were shown at Sinai, nor did G-d say to Israel to worship me and my angelic icons.
The fact that you continually resort to insults shows that it is you who has a lack of decorum and as you say “lack self control.” The caps are for emphasis not tone or offense.
Shalom Con!
Are you Yehudi?? I ask that because you quote a lot of Christian Scriptures… Back to your accusations of the Saints… Read Revelation: the Saints have been slain by the Beast and the Dragon… if you want to be coherent in comparative religion degree.
Politic powers although by name Christian do not represents the assembly of the Saints that is like accusing True Judaism of wicked because they killed almost all the Amalekites and exterminated the inhabitants of Jericho…etc. That is a flaw argument!
Elohim being a plural of majesty confirms my point all along. Elohim in His Majesty is not Alone but deploys His creation and His work with His Dabar in His Infinite and Eternal Ruah.
In Our Image refers to the Eternal Messiah… Adam is created in His Image. The Messiah is the visible Image of the Invisible Elohim. He is the authoritative Image of the invisible One. That is why when Philip asks Him: Show us the Father… Yahshuo respond by who has seen Me as seen the Father.
From the origin the Orthodox Theology was taught and lived by our forefathers. Now Judaism resembles to Islam… what a pity… letting go the Promise of the sons of YHWH Elohim… for the religion of the servant Hagar… Mystery Babylon has fooled you! And Egypt has enslaved you back for having rejected the Humble Servant of YHWH who being of Elohim condition forego His Right to become as the Suffering Servant despised by his own People to show that His Eternal Alliance with us, His People. But this fall of us brought Salvation to the Goyim … Now imagine our Return!!
Lion, here is a challenge for you.
Throughout history, Christian writers have poured out gallons of ink expressing their hatred of the Jewish people and writing venomous lies about them. Thousands of writings contain hostile statements about the Jews; one historian puts the number at 1.5 thousand documents.
Find me one Christian writer before the eighteenth century besides for Peter Abelard who wrote that the commandment to love your neighbor includes Jews and that real Christians love Jews.
There were millions of Christians throughout history, so surely you should be able to find one.
Historians who have studied the Christian persecution of the Jews have found that the hatred of Christians was inspired by religious fervor.
Your statement that Judaism is similar to Islam reveals your ignorance of both religions and your deep contempt for Judaism, an odd statement from someone who claims to be an Orthodox Jew, to be sure.
Islam condones murder (the Koran encourages killing Jews and Christians) and wife beating (the Koran states that a man may beat his wife if she is disobedient). Muslims, like Christians, have a history of violence and of persecution and oppression of those in their society who were not like them, especially of Jews. In the last 2000 years, Judaism has a history of Jews helping other Jews, trying to survive, and contributing in amazing ways to their countries despite enormous persecution, and of remaining humble and quiet and not bothering anyone. So it’s quite shocking for you to compare Judaism to Islam.
What about the reference in Hebrews that disagrees with your theology? You believe the angels were G-d, the author of Hebrews says they are angels.
Dear Con!
You do not understand. They were an Icon(Image) of Elohim. Don’t you get it! One of the three, Abraham discusses with Him concerning the destruction of Sodom that is the Eternal Messiah Master of Time and Space. He bears YHWH name. For YHWH speaks through Him! The other two Anashim goes to destroy the wicked. The passages has in Hebrew multiple layers of interpretation but one thing is clear is that YHWH appears to Abraham taking our level of understanding by the mean He wants to show us that He is not prisoner of our way of thinking… His thoughts who can understand them?? His ways who can criticize them??
P.S.: Here it is not the word Malakhim that is employed in Genesis 18 but ANASHIM which as a more undefined meaning. It is not defined because it is not unveiled yet although the language make clear it to those who have eyes to see…
Lion, Hashem is not mysterious or secretive–certainly not when it comes to the basic and most important teachings of His Torah. If He intended for us to worship Him in the way that you suggest, He would not have presented it in riddles and secrets. In fact, these riddles and secrets that you perceive flatly contradict Hashem’s teachings on how to worship Him. Therefore, your perception makes God into a sneaky liar. Just think about that for a moment.
Lion, a plural of majesty is a form of speech. When a human king in his court says “we seek to provide peace for our people” is the human king then a compound unity of persons? NO! Also. the political powers who slaughtered “true believers” were the very ones who codified the Christian writings, formulated the creeds, etc. The first time the word trinity even appears is in Tertullian. Ebionites and Nazarenes (Jewish Christians) were not trinitarian, though they did see Jesus as angelic, they drew a distinction between he and G-d.
Dear Con!
It is more than a so-called figure of speech. Even the word ELOHIM infers a compound unity. Why just say EL or even ELOAH for ELOHIM confers another meaning…
Humanity is a compound unity of human-persons. Like a kingdom is a compound unity of subject to a king. Like a family is a compound unity of a father a mother and a child.
ELOHIM is a compound unity of the PERSON-ELOHIM (DIVINE-PERSONS) where the YHWH-FATHER is the KING. There is nothing here contrary to Tanakh-Revelation but your vision of a God ALONE with Himself with no COMMUNION-ONE is contrary to Tanakh-Revelation.
Con, I’ll leave to deal with the silliness of compound unity, if you are inclined to deal with it at all. I just wanted to point out that the way Lion uses the word “Elo-ah” is incorrect. It means “God of” and thus cannot stand alone but must be followed by an object, such as “Elo-ah Yaakov,” God of Jacob. An example of this usage appears at the end of verse 8 in Psalm 114.
Im not fooled. If a man comes and tells me he is G-d, I know already that he is a liar.
Mr. L., I have a question for you.
If someone is seeking the truth about God, what is the best way to discover it?
A. Read the Torah carefully to learn what God wants from him, praying for clarity and guidance, and applying common sense and reason to understanding the plain meaning of the text.
B. Listen to Eliyah Lion and accept what he says as the truth because he claims to have had a spiritual experience.
C. Hope that the truth will one day be revealed to him through a spiritual experience.
What do you think is the correct answer, A, B, or C?
If you choose A, I am willing to take as much time and patience as you are willing to take to present reasoned arguments backed by Scripture, and to hear your reasoned arguments backed by Scripture.
If you choose C, I would tell you that the Torah does not teach that God randomly selects people to reveal the truth to them. The Torah teaches that we control our own spiritual fate through our free will choice to choose between good and evil (Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33).
If you choose B, I would tell you that it’s hard to talk to someone who believes he is morally superior, keeps telling me I’m blind and going to hell instead of addressing my arguments, and acts like he doesn’t hear what I am saying. Frankly, choice B is a waste of my time.
I hope you choose A, but if you do, you will have to change your rhetoric.
Peace,
Dina
Dina Shalom!
Your choices are flaw from the beginning. You keep forgetting that before Sinai existed Abraham who walked with Elohim and believed totally in Him and that was counted as his righteousness. Without Abraham believing sister Torah would have not been born.
Do you see how deficient is your system easy to destroy? I’m here in case you did not notice to help you build your understanding and the articulation of Emounah with intelligent answers based on the whole Tanakh not only part of it.
Therefore back to Abraham according to Christian: He is our father in the Faith and in his example and because of Him we are believers plus it is during his life time and with the alliance with YHWH that he got circumcised, a sign for future generations…
Eliyahu You claim you are here to “help you build your understanding.” If that were true – you would follow the teachings of the rabbis whom you hate and remember that a teacher cannot ridicule his students and expect them to learn from him. You are not here to teach – you are here to convince yourself that you are Elijah the prophet. If you were Elijah the prophet you wouldn’t need to use my little blog as a soap box.
Shalom Yisroel!
I never claimed to be a rabbi but I said if you read me properly that I’m a servant-messenger. I do not hate any rabbis for hate his foreign to me. Your accusation only proves that the contradictions that I brought to the attention of all show how flaw his your Theology.
Honest debates from the shocks bring normally a better understanding of the truth… that suppose at first that the debaters engage in an honest debate based on substance. I hope to find answers to my growing conviction that Judaism must return to the Orthodox Faith not the system of men disconnected from the reality but the Revelation given to our forefathers…
Your little blog is interesting for in Tehilim it is written:
”Blessed be YHWH my Rock,
Who trains my hands for war,
And my fingers for battle—
My loving kindness and my fortress,
My high tower and my deliverer,
My shield and the One in whom I take refuge,
Who subdues my people under me.”
Why don’t you respond to my comment regarding Stephen. As it was with Stephen, who with the spirit, made numerous errors. You have followed in his footsteps, to rely on a spirit that is devoid of knowledge. Therefore, your new found religion has no merit.
Sharbano shalom to you!
Brother you keep repeating the same disk without addressing the contradiction of Deut.4 forbidding all carved images… but with an exception to the rule when the ark was built with the 2 cherub on top of it… Can you address it yes or no? If Yes do it for the sake of everybody for you talk you talk about the small Christians contradictions which yet you did not expose clearly (to what Stephen do you talk about??) when our contradictions seem much more important for it is the Torah… Come on be serious!!
Small Xtian contradictions?? Don’t you even know your own Xtian bible. Don’t you know where it speaks of Stephen being filled with the spirit recounting events of the past. He is supposedly filled with the spirit of Wisdom. Just as the spirit filled Stephen with false information so has the spirit led you down a path of falsehood. If Stephen can’t get it right what makes you think you can be relied upon.
You are hung up on the K’ruvim. Where do you think they came from. Learn from what Torah is referred to.
Sharbano, I suspect that Lion’s knowledge of Scripture is very much like Stephen’s; therefore, he really doesn’t know what Stephen said that contradicts the Torah.
He doesn’t know, most likely, that in Acts 7:14, we are told that seventy-five people traveled to Egypt to Joseph. But in Genesis 46:27, Exodus 1:5, and Deuteronomy 10:22, we see that in fact seventy people traveled to Egypt. The Torah repeats this simple fact three times, and still Stephen couldn’t get his acts together (pun intended) and get that right.
Lion is also probably unaware of the mistaken reference in Acts 7:16. Here we are told that Abraham purchased a tomb from the sons of Hamor in Shechem, when in fact Genesis 49:29-30 and 50:13 tells us that he purchased the tomb from Ephron the Hittite in the Machpelah field facing Mamre.
It’s so easy to check these references that one wonders how Stephen got it wrong, especially if you want to believe that he was divinely inspired. It’s so easy for a human to avoid these mistakes that you have to ask how God could have made them. How do Christians expect us to accept the credibility of a text that can’t get its facts straight?
I didn’t actually want to give the answers as yet. I was wanting to see where it would go.
Especially the cave of Machpelah. Anyone that knows Anything about Israel should recognize this area, especially given all the news of late.
Shalom Sharbano! I’m willing to address those apparent contradictions… Show them, where are they?
But still you did not address mine… Tanakh Scriptures claims to be the truth therefore no contradiction no mistake must be in it if so we have a problem…
The lesson here is that it is Holy Tradition that gave us the Tanakh where men wrote what they hear from the Revelation. Apparent contradictions do not render the message of no value but only show how our human mind is limited in the understanding of the Will of Eloah, and human errors show us that Revelation is transmitted to mortals that can make mistake of perception, of understanding and of translation.
Therefore each of my brothers and sisters must grow in the Faith in order to fully understand the Revelation of the One Elohim. It is a service to the LORD for those who fear Him and do not know Him fully. But it is a loving Relation to those who know YHWH and cherish His Name… For to those who want to make his will in all things He blesses them with His Wisdom to say to proclaim HOW GOOD IS YHWH
You claim all this knowledge from your “Ruach” then why is it you don’t know. We have been addressing your points long enough. You really haven’t given any scriptural rationale only your own kabbalistic presuppositions. That is why YOU see contradictions where there is none. If there are contradictions how can it be from G-d at all. Do you really believe G-d deals in contradictions. But I guess if you believe he is one of three men then no wonder. If I were to accept This philosophy there would be no purpose in Emunah. It would be futile. No doubt it will be your reasoning for the contradictions committed by Stephen in Acts 6,7. All in all it IS a teaching moment for Us, as we can test your Ruach and find it no different than the Ruach of Stephen, which NEITHER are from Hashem.
Sharbano! The path that you are going in is a dead end. You are full of contradictions and because you insist on Christian Scriptures I will gave this to show that you are an enemy of Israel and a liar:
1 Beloved, not to every ruah put faith in, but rather test the spirits if from among the Elohim she results, because many false prophets have gone out into this world-order. 2 In this you come to know the spirit of the Elohim: every spirit who professes Yahushuo Messiah in flesh having come, from among the Elohim she results; 3 and every spirit who does not profess the one Yahshuo Messiah in flesh having come, from among the Elohim she results not: and this is the one of the anti-messiah, which you have heard is coming, and now among this world-order he is already. (1 John chap. 4)
We have been warned by the Master-Teacher of your false spirit enemy of mankind and lovers of the liar for you deform everything to your own perdition this Yaakov prophesied in Genesis 49:
“Dan shall judge his people
As one of the tribes of Israel.
17
Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
A viper by the path,
That bites the horse’s heels
So that its rider shall fall backward.
18
I have waited for your salvation, O Lord!
So, Obviously you are skirting the issue. This contradiction is one of many in the Xtian scriptures. Since you opt to USE those scriptures we have to determine their validity and authenticity, which are in question. This isn’t the first time you have been cornered and desperately tried to divert the issue. I, for one, will NOT let it go. Therefore, are you relying on the same Ruach that Stephen was so full of. The account of Stephen and the way it is portrayed will utterly destroy the foundation of Xtianity. Of course, This, you do not want to accept. You’d rather stay in a world that is Devoid of Hashem.
Sharbano Shalom! You forgot Genesis 49 to back up my claim of the anti-messiah but like many times you read what you want.
Still did not answer my request for the benefit of all in Genesis 1 v.26: What does mean in OUR IMAGE? Two words that you can not explain… Hmm very fishy!!
P.S.: If you really love the TORAH read Genesis in Hebrew you will hopefully understand that before Moshe came Abraham and without Abraham response of faith to YHWH you will would not be here discussing…
You conclusion that I want I world without HaShem is false if HaShem is YHWH. But if your hashem if a false god that you substituted to YHWH that you can even pronounce the NAME in prayer than yes you might be right.
The question is to you distorted one: Who is your hashem? What Elohim are you serving?
My Elohim is Elohei Israel: YHWH EL-ELYON EL-SHADDAI THE BELOVED known by his children despise by the rebels…
I love YHWH my father in the Dabar and in his Ruah Hakodesh. I know His Holy Name and I know that I speak the truth according to One Torah.
“Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
15
He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
16
With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”
Sharbano do you know His name??
E.L.
“Apparent contradictions do not render the message of no value but only show how our human mind is limited in the understanding of the Will of Eloah, and human errors show us that Revelation is transmitted to mortals that can make mistake of perception, of understanding and of translation”
If this is true what are we to believe? All of us are mortals. If the writers cannot be trusted from the torah they certainly cannot be trusted from the new testament. Personal revelation isn’t worth the cyber ink you blog with.
Dear Larry, you said:
”If this is true what are we to believe? All of us are mortals. If the writers cannot be trusted from the torah they certainly cannot be trusted from the new testament. Personal revelation isn’t worth the cyber ink you blog with.”
No the Author of the Sacred Text is to be believed. For the Ultimate author is the Ruah Hakodesh. I’m questioning the flaw interpretation of human minds who translate, interpret and understand incorrectly because of their inner limitations, their false conceptions, their carnal perceptions.
Blessed are the pure of hearts they will see the Elohim. The purification of one hearts has to come with holy fire that cleanses the inner eyes of our intelligence in order by faith to link it to the Dabar Elohim personified in the flesh of the Messiah by whom we see the Beauty the Glory the Pure Light of Sinai as Moshe, Yahushuo and Eliyahu…
Without purification, transformation, transfiguration of our minds none can or will see the Face of YHWH. Holy Holy Holy is YHWH Tsabaot and holy must we be to partake to His Glory!!
E.L.
I really wish you would speak with words the average Joe cold understand. Does Ruah Hakodesh mean Holy Spirit to you? I admit I had to google for the meaning, but would rather ask you. Also, You now say “I’m questioning the flaw interpretation of human minds who translate, interpret and understand incorrectly because of their inner limitations, their false conceptions, their carnal perception.” Since we’re all human, what makes anyones interpretation better than the other, who in the better judge of what is written? Since I am human how can I judge who is transfigured and has a pure heart and utimately who should I listen to? Everything I have read tells me to listen to god. It does not tell me I have to be transformed, pure, transfigured to understand what I am being told. A child can understand the 10 commandments. No purification with fire needed. If a average Joe can see that everyone disagrees with you, and they explain in english so everyone can understand, unlike you, why would they every change?
Eli Lion, the ark is not an image of G-d, neither is it worshipped or prayed to by anybody, so, it is not against e commandment. G-d commanded Moses to make it.
Lion, in Deuteronomy 4 G-d forbids that Israel make an image of any shape to represent HIM in terms of prayer or worshipful service, such as what Israel did in sin with the golden calf, and later with the brass serpent in 2 kings. The Ark of the covenant is not G-d himself, nor is it ever treated as such by Israel, worshiped, or prayed to. Do you understand the difference there? In Judaism, G-d is not to be worshipped in any represented form for the numerous reasons I mentioned already.
Eliyahu You claim that you came here for honest discussion. If you were here for honest discussion you would not just insist that people listen to you but you would listen to what people are telling you as well. This being the case – Concerned Reader answered your “contradiction” – which is no contradiction in any case – even if there would be a prohibition against making forms that are not for worship but God could still tell us to make one just as He commands us not to murder yet He commands us to kill on many occasions – this is no contradiction and what are you trying to prove with this anyways? Now if you are here for honest discussion then answer this question – how does Scripture expect the last generations of Jews to view the Sinai revelation?
My dear brother pharisee, boker tov!
I do not insist in reference to me. That is false! I insist on the issues that must be resolved in order that we may grow from an honest debate.
Prohibition of carved images and exception only proves that the important issue here is that men alone are lost in even obeying the Torah. They mixed everything with their limitations and their carnal way of understanding everything. That is normal!
YAHUSHUO came to transfigure our mind-mentality to make it conform to the Will of Elohai. All his actions where a testimony of the Love of YHWH. But you have rejected Him the one who can bring the saints-elect to the full observance of the Torah the living One in the Ruah Holy who guides and teaches us in all things that pleases YHWH…
A true Tsadik does the will of EL-Elyon in all things for his spirit is connected to the Source of Justice where all the ways of YHWH are taught…
Eliyahu Did you come for honest discussion? If you did then why do you not answer my question? To remind you – How does the Torah teach the last generation of Jews to look at the Sinai revelation?
There are more Jews today who ARE fully observant in Torah, as dictated by G-d, than at any other time.
Did Yeshu transfigure your mind-mentality as he did for Stephen and his errant speech. Also, you don’t even seem to understand what the Names of G-d mean or tell us. It’s more applicable to Xtianese than Hebrew.
Boker Tov Con!
Read all the passage on the Ark. It was revered! Like Yisroel said it the Elohim commanded to do it. Meaning that the contradiction is there but when YHWH commands we obey. For the commandment to do no carved images was issue to make sure that the slave-mentality would not reduce the Elohim to a carved image. But in spite of that the Ark was built knowing that men needed to visualize to concentrate their attention in worship. It is a purification process that the Elohim wanted to teach us and He knows our limitations that we are no angels…
Now you still did not address Genesis 1 v.26: what does in OUR IMAGE means?
Eli Lion, when you say we are quoting “our theology,” you have to understand that it’s just quoting Hebrew scripture. Isaiah 43:11 plainly says there is no savior other than G-d the father. In verse 12, the people of Israel, the Jewish people are called the witnesses of G-d, and G-d tells them, “I, and not some foreign god among you.” Read with Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other,” the meaning is clear. In terms of what Israel was shown, it says they heard the voice of G-d speaking from the fire. Let me ask you this. Is the burning bush an image of G-d worthy of your worship?
Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, NOR IN THE SON OF MAN, in whom there is no help.
Dear Con Shalom! The right translation of מִבַּלְעָדַ֖י = ‘without’ that is a subtle difference. The passage of Isaiah 43:11 would say: אָנֹכִי אָנֹכִי יְהוָה וְאֵין מִבַּלְעָדַי מוֹשִׁיעַ = Me I am YHWH and nothing without me is saviour (Moshia)
Plus Psalm 146:3 do not say in the SON OF MAN but in a son of man. Very subtle but very important. There no definite article and bé in front of ben means in… ba in front of ben would have rendered your translation OK.
The Hebrew text will always concord with the pure Revelation. No contradiction. Now your statements must be carefully written if you did not want to be accused by the prosecutor to bear false witness.
The Supremacy of YHWH-FATHER is not debated here but your false theology of the Essence of the Almighty in His Dabar. That has immense consequences of how your perceive others and those around you. A dictator god always produces dictatorship… That is not the True Israel!!
Con, as you don’t know Hebrew, I’m taking the liberty of helping you out here. I would send you this information in an email but I don’t have your address (if you wish you can get mine from Rabbi B.). So here goes.
The verse in Isaiah can be translated either way, but it makes no difference in light of Deuteronomy 4. Regarding the son of man passage, as he often does, Lion has trapped himself with his words. The fact that there is no definite article makes his case even worse, because it means you are not to trust in any son of man, as opposed to a specific son of man.
No worries Dina, I know hebrew is very very context sensitive.
Lion,
It is folly to accuse the good people here, students of Torah, of coming to the text of the Torah with an agenda while ignoring the great liberties taken by the authors of the NT. The entire system of the Church–Greek, Roman, or otherwise–relies upon taking scripture out-of-context. Even worse, it literally rewrites it. The author of Hebrews alters Jeremiah. Matthew alters the words of Isaiah. These are not minor infractions. They use these alterations to impose entirely new meanings on the text. And when they are not literally altering the words, they truncate passages to impose a meaning upon them foreign to the text.
Moreover, you have made it a point to comment upon the character of the commenters here with great frequency. Who assigned you this role? Who told you that you ought to walk about telling people that they are arrogant? No, do not tell me. I already know the answer. You will say that you are doing it in love, that you have a responsibility to tell others when they are doing wrong.
Piffle.
If such is the case, then you have no excuse for coming in here with your own thin skin. How many times have you complained that someone was attacking your character rather than addressing your arguments? (Here I use the word “argument” rather loosely, as for the most part you merely pontificate. You merely declare yourself to be correct, as if your insistence makes it so.)
The rhetoric upon which you rely is so venomous, I would hardly be able to believe that one might employ it, if I did not know of the example of your master. You accuse Sharbano of having the spirit of a liar. Further, you accuse him, and I suppose all Torah observant Jews, of bearing enmity against mankind. What pernicious lies! How dare you write such things and then tell us that you do it in love? This is not love but contempt.
With such brazenness you tell us that Jesus came to show love. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This man walked about calling his critics sons of the devil, because they did not take “his word for it”. He called them vipers and publicly called out their supposed sins. You, who constantly say that one ought not malign a tzaddik, tend to your own house! See if you can find a lever large enough for the beam in your own eye, before attempting to blow the bit of dust out of Sharbano’s, Dina’s, or R’ Blumenthal’s.
Do not deceive yourself. It is not love that motivates you, but superiority. After all, you have the spirit of truth and Sharbano has the spirit of lies. Since you know this already, you may dismiss his every word as pouring out of evil lips. You need not even consider them.
It is not love that makes you equate Dina to the Taliban. Far from it! It is the deepest contempt and self-delusion. Between the Church and the Jewish people, who has put more people to the rack? Who has burned more people at the stake? It certainly was not the Jewish people. Until recently, they have not even been granted the right to defend their beliefs without fear of serious reprisals. The hands of the Church drip with Jewish blood, and you dare compare Dina and the Jewish people to the Taliban? Was the auto-da-fe a Jewish practice?
How convenient of you to ignore Christian history while you malign the Jewish people. In your mind those faithful to HaShem and His Torah are villains, while the Church is pure as snow. How conveniently you write off the violence of the Church as not belonging to your particular sect of Christianity! I recommend for your reading a piece I wrote sometime back, addressing this particular folly: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/06/08/a-memo-from-the-church-in-the-year-1984-by-jim/ .
You have cited that hospitals and schools, etc. built by the Church as evidence of her goodness. Now, let us look at the Jewish world, particularly the observant Jewish world. Do they not bear the same fruit? Have they not also built hospitals, schools, etc? Of course, they have, and the whole world knows it. And it is much more remarkable the way that they have extended themselves to the world, considering how frequently the non-Jewish world has spit in their faces and much worse.
Cease your malignant insults, I implore you. Beg your Jewish brothers and sisters for forgiveness and no longer call them liars and evil. Do not call them enemies of humanity. They (and I) will gladly discuss with you matters of the greatest importance. But such a conversation cannot be comprised of mere pontification and declarations of one’s opponents being filled with evil and lying spirits. And, if you deceive yourself into believing that the great contempt with which you address them is actually love, do not think that you deceive them also. Tacking on the words “I love you” will not mask the utter disdain with which your comments drip.
Jim
Jim, very powerful words. I hope they penetrate.
I reread your brilliant and hilarious satire that you linked to above. And I have to ask you, when are you writing that book?
Dina,
Regarding a book, you’ll have to speak to my compiler and editor, Larry.
Jim
Lol! Okay, Larry, where are you holding?
Dina
I must confess, I’m not here enough to be the neither the compiler or editor. I tried, really, but, and I hope its not to late, someone else can take over who can catch all that Jim writes.
Sorry Jim, I probably should have notified you sooner. I will keep gathering what I can, but I must feed the family first.
Aw, shucks!
Dina – you hope they “penetrate” – not with Eliyahu he needs something more than logic. But Jim’s words do penetrate to seekers of truth who are reading this exchange. To these seekers of truth – I encourage you to sift through the comments on this blog and see how many followers of Jesus end up sounding like this Eliyahu Lion – please think about it.
Shalom to you Yisroel!
Seekers of truth are those who do not distort reality to fit their view.
I just prove that Genesis 46 do not contradict Acts 7. You try to discredit Justice mercy and the Resurrection for so-called contradictions that the Tanakh holds but can be resolved with proper study. But no you prefer to let the lie float. Here the famous example of Stephen holy martyr of the faith:
Genesis46 and acts7 are very complimentary for like proved in my previous post. Genesis46 counted only the men from Yaakov versus Acts 7 which included wives and daughters…
I could multiply does apparent contradictions. But the Essential you forego to yourself in place of the Dabar Elohim and set your own standard about the truth. Wow!! To the modern minds we are laugh at… why? We loose any credibility when we forget the substance of Emounah for the human renderings of the Torah (killing is good, war is good, it is permitted for we are the best…) But how can you understand since you have been used to a way of thinking. My point is to open your hearts to others and love them and stop bashing the Christians our brothers.
You talk about the Messiah coming and you can even know what is the role Eliyah in the End Times… Yahushuo is the Master-Rabbi the Just who offered his life for his followers. His Love for his People has been demonstrated and the works of his saints have been recognized universally (Saint Francis of Assis, Saint Edith Stein, Saint Maximilien Kolbe, Saint Ephaim, Saint Charbel, and so many….) Those are living witness of the power of the Resurrection and a testimony of the validity of the Messiah of Israel.
Now in the two thousand years of Judaism were are the fruits bearing witness of the validity of the Torah that you say you follow… Where is your TIKUN OLAM??
Eliyahu You ask were is our tikun olam We were an island of sanity in an insane world. Your saints were mostly Catholics who believed in the holiness of Popes – Popes who sanctified the Inquisition. You ask for our saints – get to know Jewish history before you ridicule.
Shalom Jim! I have almost all the time greeted my brothers and sisters with Peace that was not reciprocated almost all the time. And you accuse me of hate.
To tell the truth hurts and you want me to shut up like our forefathers did to Jeremiah accusing him of being an agent of the king of Babylon. Jeremiah was protecting his people and warning them but still he was persecuted.
You do not receive my quotation of Scriptures for you read what you want to satisfy your view which is not the one of neither Abraham nor Israel. You elevate Moshe to the rank of god by making all his teachings absolutes when those absolutes are constantly contradicted.
You shall not kill and the rebels during Moshe were killed… No carved image of nothing, the two cherub were made… and on and on… Can you see that the world is drifting away because of fanatics mentality that takes everything to the first degree failing to go deeper … for who can without the Ruah Hakodesh who teaches and guides the true followers of the Living Torah to a better accomplishment of the Holy Will
The book of Revelation tells you the story prophetically… You will see who were right all along the saints or the anti-messihim… But here the warning of Malachi must be taken seriously if the fathers(Yehudim) turn not to their sons (Messihim) and the sons to their fathers than YHWH will strike the land with a curse. You have been warned!!
“Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgements.
5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6
And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the Land with a curse.”
If you love Israel you will take Malachi seriously and stop bashing Christians by so-called contradictions that can be found also in our Tanakh. Substance of the Faith is more important than the human renderings…
P.S.: your reference to pseudo-Christians non-Orthodox ones are like referring the Reform-Jews vs Orthodox ones… Let us compare Orthodox between Orthodox!! Therefore you paper about 1984 evangelicals does not concerns me for they are not the Messihim but just a sect…
Lion,
You think a quick “Shalom” excuses you from hate speech? You think an “I love you” means that you can call someone the enemy of mankind? Are you truly so daft as to think that as long as you smile, your words should be considered friendly? It is not scripture, but surely you know that “one may smile and smile and be a villain.”
You quote frequently from Malachi. If only you had read it.
It says nothing of belief in the Messiah, for example. Nothing of Christianity can be found in his admonition to remember the Law of Moses. But he does say to remember the Law of Moses, the servant of God. And so let us do that. Let us look briefly at the Law of Moses.
Perhaps you recall reading somewhere: I am the Lord your God who took you out of the Land of Egypt. You shall have no other Gods before Me.
(And, if we wish to adopt your method of asking questions with an eye to creating controversy rather than understanding, we shall ask why it does not say, “We are the god who brought you…. You shall have no other God before us.”)
You have rejected this fundamental teaching of God’s Torah. God claims exclusive rights. If you had read Deuteronomy 4 to find out what it was teaching rather than imposing your own man-made doctrines onto the text, you would have noticed that God reiterates that He is alone, and that the whole reason for the Sinai event was so that the Jewish people could testify to the formless, sole Creator. Dina has drawn your attention to this already, but it has been your way to ignore the parts of Torah that do not fit your theology. What the Jewish people were not established to testify was that God was a Jewish man.
You have rewritten the oneness of God to mean anything but oneness. You make the statement meaningless, but you must find license to worship a man, and therefore you are left with nothing to do but rewrite the Torah. And if that means that you must distort its teachings, then what is there to do but distort them. After all, it is not the Word of God you love, but the word of man. And when the two conflict, you are left with but one tool, to rewrite the Word of God. How specious are your arguments that the students of Torah have done the same!
All you can find are ‘hints’ to support your theology. If you squint at one passage, you can find your Jesus written therein. But the Jewish people were not commanded to recognize Jesus as God. In fact, they were urged quite the opposite. They were urged not to associate God with any created thing. (No, not even the ark.) They were told to kill the prophet who came to them with a God they did not know, after just having it brought to their mind what sort of God they did know, a transcendent God Who did not present Himself in a form, a God who is alone.
How foolishly you set yourself on a footing with Jeremiah. He urged people to come back to God. You take those who worship God, call them idolaters, and urge them to follow a “god they did not know”.
But this is ever the way. You are not the first Christian to come here and tell everybody that really your words are in the vein of Jeremiah. Somehow the only thing any of you ever bears is harshness. The message is never the same as Jeremiah’s. All you take from him is license to rebuke; but he rebuked those who turned from God. You rebuke those who turn from the product of the imagination. And so you cast yourself as a martyr, another Jeremiah whose message is rejected. But Jeremiah would have rejected you too, as can be seen from his every page.
Take the advice which you are so fond of quoting. Return to the Torah of Moses, those holy words that were given by God. Consider well that those commands rest on the exclusive worship of God, and not one of the prophets, and certainly not the Torah, urged the worship of any man-past, present, or future. They do not teach that one is to overwrite the Torah to make their own religion, where God’s acts are secondary to those of a mere mortal.
Jim
I would say that Jeremiah was rebuking the “Xtians” of His day. We know there is nothing new under the sun, therefore, Xtianity has its roots somewhere, i.e., pagan Rome, pagan Greek, pagan Persia, pagan Babylon, pagan Egypt, pagan Nimrod.
Eliyahu You accused Jim of “wanting you to shut up” – he never said anything of the sort. He just told you that if you want to have a respectful conversation you are more than welcome – but if you come here with an “I alone possess the truth” attitude then don’t expect anyone to listen to you. It seems that you haven’t read my comment policy – if you would be ethical you would adhere to it.
EL. I actually have a copy of the Living Torah, Do You.
You keep quoting Malachi especially Remember the Torah of Moshe. (It doesn’t say Law). Are you really under the assumption that Moshe’s teachings are NOT absolutes. Apparently you don’t believe that G-d had anything to do with what is written. Apparently Moshe went up there for that 40 days and just slept.
Speaking of sects. You appear to be creating one of your own. How many followers are in your new religion by the way.
Shalom to all! Sharbano and Dina about your so-called contradiction… Let us confront it to the truth!
Genesis 46 the counting of 70 relatives to Yaakov
vs
Acts 7 v.14 where Stephen says they were 75
Very simple I did the math and there NO CONTRADICTION here. For Genesis 46 in the number 70 are not included the daughters nor the wives of Yaakov nor the wives of his sons.
Stephen refers to Yaakov relatives going to Egypt including the daughters + the wives but Joseph and his sons for they were in Egypt already.
Genesis 46 says: ”All the persons of the house of Jacob who went to Egypt were seventy.”
According to modern standard that statement is not true. The wives nor the daughters are included in this count.
Than you dare to criticize Stephen when he says 75: ”14 Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people.”
70-Joseph-Manasseh-Ephraim(already in Egypt)=67+4 wives+daughters might give us 75 for the exact numbers of daughters is not certain for Léah had many daughters the known one was Dinah + Aser daughter.
I find Stephen pretty well inspired taking the wives and the daughters into consideration. There is an evolution in the status of women in the NT… I would had included the wives also of the sons of Yaakov but is another topic… N’est-ce pas Dinah??
Eliyahu So out of all 70 men only 5 of them had wives? and no daughters? You call this truth? The verse would indicate that all of the sons of Yaakov had wives (Genesis 46:26) that makes 12 not 5
Poor Yisroel you did not even have the decency to read my entire post explaining it. Out of contempt you show that you denigrate others especially the Christians that you can even read properly and entirely a brother seeking the truth…
I said: Eliyah Lion says:
June 8, 2015 at 1:32 pm
Shalom to all! Sharbano and Dina about your so-called contradiction… Let us confront it to the truth!
Genesis 46 the counting of 70 relatives to Yaakov
vs
Acts 7 v.14 where Stephen says they were 75
Very simple I did the math and there NO CONTRADICTION here. For Genesis 46 in the number 70 are not included the daughters nor the wives of Yaakov nor the wives of his sons.
Stephen refers to Yaakov relatives going to Egypt including the daughters + the wives but Joseph and his sons for they were in Egypt already.
Genesis 46 says: ”All the persons of the house of Jacob who went to Egypt were seventy.”
According to modern standard that statement is not true. The wives nor the daughters are included in this count.
Than you dare to criticize Stephen when he says 75: ”14 Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people.”
70-Joseph-Manasseh-Ephraim(already in Egypt)=67+4 wives+daughters might give us 75 for the exact numbers of daughters is not certain for Léah had many daughters the known one was Dinah + Aser daughter.
I find Stephen pretty well inspired taking the wives and the daughters into consideration. There is an evolution in the status of women in the NT… I would had included the wives also of the sons of Yaakov but is another topic… N’est-ce pas Dinah??
Yisroel I said an honest debate and what you wrote proves me and to the seekers of truth that you are dishonest for you keep diverting and twisting and omitting points that took precious time to be delivered.
Bearing false witness is against Torah!!Or there is a special authorization to do it may be against the Christians … where is your love of truth. Look and you will find… do not harden your hearts like Pharaoh!!
A lot of Xtians try to make the point of 75 but that is just as wrong. Count the people. Do you KNOW where Stephen got his information. That is why the Xtian writings are suspect. The number 75 comes from a MISTAKE in the Septuagint. THIS is what Stephen relied upon, NOT the Hebrew Torah. Nonetheless that is one among other flagrant mistakes.
I had forgot to mention. The total HAS to be 70 because of that number. It has more to do than just a count, which is confirmed in Torah. I just wonder if you can find it.
Lion,
Let us observe who it is that twists scripture, and perhaps then we can ascertain if you are indeed a prophet of God, or if the spirit that moves you might be nothing more than your own imagination.
You find an apparent contradiction between the command not to kill and the killing of the rebels. This apparent contradiction gives you license to then read into any command whatever meaning you like, because should you contradict it, you will find that it is only an apparent contradiction. So, the Torah tells one not to worship anyone other than God, but you do not care, because it also says not to kill. And that law certainly is not as binding as one might have believed.
Perhaps your Google translate did not properly tell you that the command is not a strict prohibition to kill. It is a prohibition to murder. Murder is a particular kind of killing, but as you note not all killing is prohibited. However, there is no contradiction in the command not to murder and the killing of the rebels, not even an apparent contradiction. In fact, they bear no relation to one another.
But even if there had been an apparent contradiction, that would not mean that all bets were off. That would not mean, for example, that I could kill my neighbor because I found one allowed instance of killing. Nor would it allow me to covet in some instances because I found an instance where killing was no prohibited. I would need something in the law itself to justify my acting in what would only seem to be against the Law.
Of course the behaviors you advocate have no such justification in Torah. If they had, then we might have only an apparent contradiction but also a resolution. You seize upon ‘mysteries’ here and there. You take the Torah and turn it into shadows. But you cannot find a single clear verse that directs one to worship Jesus or any man.
So you operate according to a principle that if you can find any apparent contradictions in Torah, you will be allowed to justify whatever anti-Torah principle you can find. You will quote that there will be a prophet like Moses, but you will ignore that it says nothing about worshipping such a prophet. And in fact, if the prophet were like Moses, then he would not be divine. And so you will look for contradictions, hoping to find something that will be a defense of your faith. “Ah, you see there is this difficulty in Torah, and therefore any difficulties that arise between my faith and Torah must also be accepted.”
I ask you, then, what are we to make of such dishonest tactics? Should we blindly accept them? Should we hearken unto the voice of the One God or the voice of one lion? When we see that you are willing to distort Torah in the hopes of granting yourself license, I hope you can see that we have no alternative but to turn away from your teaching. For all your protestations that you are moved by the spirit, it is obvious that you are moved only by your own imagination.
Jim
Jim, well said :).
Jim you just confirmed how twisted your mind is. Killing does not equal murder… again excuses of Pharisees able to justify everything with nothing…
When Yahushuo said that the serpent is your father… I thought it must have been an hyperbole to wake them up… what an expert you are to twist everything to fit your one eye view.
I have provided many contradiction in the Tanakh:
1)Total prohibition of carved images… two cherub (angels) are carved on top of the ark
2) The Torah is the truth because of a Scaring Voice in the desert vs the quiet and humble voice of Eloah when addressing Abraham
3) The 70 persons of Genesis 46 not properly counted for the daughters and the wives of Yaakov were not counted… like they meant nothing…
4) Genesis 1 ELOHIM a compound Unity saying: ”LET US make man in Our Image”
5) Genesis 1 ELOHIM a compound Unity vs your Dictator god Alone with himself
6) YHWH ELOHIM a Loving Father vs your god Dictator scaring people
7) A loving Elohim creator of the Universe seeing everything is good vs your god of war wanting to destroy
We are now wondering who has been fooled here the Messihim in their holy view of Tanakh or the so-called Yehudi having twisted Holy Scriptures to their one eye view…
Tell me what is the difference between you and your view and fanatics Muslims who wants to kill all my brothers Christians and Jews??
1) So, in your world G-d can’t allow something. If He won’t allow K’ruvim then he MOST DEFINITELY should NOT allow J’sus. But this isn’t unheard of. Sacrifices were Only to be allowed on the designated altar, yet in one case there was an exception.
2) Don’t you know the difference between a prophetic type speaking to one as opposed to G-d’s energy, if you will, being present. I’m sure you’ll twist that to no end.
3) I covered the 70. Are you aware the Torah Lists the 70 and can be counted. I was going to type it all out but look it up for yourself and learn something.
4) Elokim means a compound unity. You don’t really know Hebrew do you. Moshe is called elohim. Is HE a compound unity. Judges are called elohim. Are they compound unities. Your god needs three to accomplish his tasks.The G-d of Israel doesn’t need anyone. Explain the phrase Ein Od Milvado.
5) Now THIS makes a lot of sense. A loving father vs a dictator G-d “scaring” people. We can agree that the people at Sinai Were terrified and died twice and were resurrected. Now, this is OUR G-d. Obviously You are serving another god INSTEAD of the G-d of Israel, since you don’t like the way HE IS. Therefore you have to create your OWN PERSONAL GOD only you can know, because no one here wants anything to do with THAT false god. You may find solace in one of the Hindu gods or a myriad of others that would be more to your liking. They are reading and waiting for you.
You do realize you are getting frustrated and angry and the two don’t bode well for a person. You may suffer some ill health as a result.
Please translate Shemot 20:13
Then, for example B’resheit 4::15 ; 12:12
Sharbano, I find it interesting that Ein Od Milvado, can explain all of J’s statements about oneness with hashem, but in a metaphorical sense, that isn’t tainted by idolatry.
Con, Deuteronomy 4:35 does not goes against Oneness in the Elohim on the contrary.
אַתָּה הָרְאֵתָ לָדַעַת, כִּי יְהוָה הוּא הָאֱלֹהִים: אֵין עוֹד, מִלְּבַדּוֹ
It can be translated like this: ”You were shown this to know when YHWH He is Elohim: there is no more: by oneself”
You see bad theology comes from bad translation not knowing the proper translation. Did you know that many rabbis asked the Aramaic speaking brothers to show them how to pronounce and understand Hebrew. Many are or were illiterate in Hebrew which question truly the deficient translation that we have today.
The HEBREW TEXT is the text to read. Learn HEBREW and you will see the beauty of the true Emounah in the Ruah Hakodesh.
Con, Lion’s translation is quite garbled. As a Hebrew speaker myself, I can give you a better translation:
You have been shown in order to know that Hashem, He is the God; there is no other beside Him.
This is Mr. Lion’s translation:
“”You were shown this to know when YHWH He is Elohim: there is no more: by oneself”
These are the mistakes that he has made:
1. He added the word “this.”
2. He mistranslated the word כי as “when” but it means “because” or “that” depending on context.
3. He translated אין עוד out of context as “there is no more.” This phrase by itself means “there is no more.” But in this context it is elliptical. For example, the phrase “you are taller than I” is elliptical because you automatically fill in the words “am tall.” But no one talks like that. No one says “you are taller than I am tall.” When we add the word מלבדו it no longer means “there is no more” but “there is no other.”
4. He mistranslated the word מלבדו as “by oneself.” The word לבדו means by himself, but the word מלבדו means beside him. Lion is confusing the words לבד, alone, and מלבד, besides.
Lion’s translation is nonsensical to English speakers, though he may not realize this. It reads like gibberish.
I suspect that he doesn’t really know Hebrew and has to look up the words one at a time in a dictionary. I don’t know how else to explain his absurd translations.
Also he left out the word “the” before God.
Dina is right I forgot the HA. My translation was as literal as possible to show as much as possible the Hebrew construction rather the flow in English.
Therefore my corrected translation will be of Deuteronomy 4:35 that does not goes against the Oneness in the Elohim:
אַתָּה הָרְאֵתָ לָדַעַת, כִּי יְהוָה הוּא הָאֱלֹהִים: אֵין עוֹד, מִלְּבַדּוֹ
It can be translated like this: ”You were shown this to know when YHWH He is the Elohim: there is no more: by oneself”
1) ‘This’ is warranted for some translate אַתָּה הָרְתָ : ”To you it was shown” (KJV)
For in front of verb רְתָ there is הָ which determines what was shown. Therefore my translation respect the 2 person of singular of the verb while using instead of ‘it’ the use of ‘this’ to respect the Hebrew construction and literal meaning.
2) כִּי can be translated by ‘when’ actually that is ancient Hebrew usage. Please check yourself! Do you homeworks! Actually if Dina was truly speaking Hebrew she would have known what I’m saying.
3) Agreed with me but try to divert it… There is no more=There is nothing
4) Dina uses ”beside Him” literally it will mean: ‘apart from He’ or even: ‘than He alone’ for the particle מִ can mean ‘from’ or ‘than’
”You were shown this to know when YHWH He is the Elohim: there is no more, than He alone”
or
”You were shown this to know when YHWH He is the Elohim: there is no more, apart from He”
The proper translation reinforce the Oneness the Unity the Communion of the Elohim and the Supremacy of YHWH.
Ameen!!
Eliyahu When were they shown this? for what purpose and what is the context of this verse – what is it trying to say with the fact that Israel was shown this?
Okay, folks, those of you who speak Hebrew know this is nonsense; those of you who don’t speak Hebrew can judge for yourselves which translation makes more sense.
Is a good Jew one who spews hate rhetoric and anti Semitic rants calling people blind? Please be more civil.
If you really knew what you were talking about at all, you would take note of these verses, and the historical roots of your own religion.
Acts 15:5 “Then some of the BELIEVERS who belonged to the party of the PHARISEES.”
Mathew 23 Then Jesus said to the CROWDS and to HIS DISCIPLES: 2 “The teachers of the law and the PHARISEES sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Jesus tells random crowds and also his students to listen to the pharisees.
If you would look at Jesus’ opinions of how to actually walk in the commandments, you would realize that he is very Pharisaic in his opinions, very near to Hillel. The sermon on the mount is lifted right out of Jewish Liturgy!
“At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.” Here SOME PHARISEES WARN JESUS IN ORDER TO SAVE HIS LIFE!!!! (hateful folks right trying to save your Jesus?)
Is it lost on you that it was roman appointed Sadducee high priests, and not Pharisees who had a problem with Jesus according to your book and history?
The biggest lie ever perpetrated is that Jews hate Jesus. They don’t at all. There is however a chasm THAT WILL ALWAYS DIVIDE between Judaism and Christianity, and its called Christian theology. If you all weren’t obsessed with trying to force Jews to worship this person as G-d, they would be totally indifferent to what you believe about him.
Lion,
No protestations of love? No hypocritical greeting of peace? I would be hurt, except:
I am deeply honored that you have put me in the camp of those noble Pharisees. To be counted among those “fooled” by the Jewish people- you have paid me a great compliment. And though you meant to slander me, I cannot but be grateful. To be numbered among those too devoted to HaShem and his Torah to throw it over for an idol–you will think I am being sarcastic, but I am not. I am not worthy to be counted among that noble number. I will get to the rest of your ‘points’ when I have time, but for now:
Thank you,
Jim
The one statement that you make it rather interesting. That is, “I have provided many contradiction in the Tanakh:”
Now, if This were true then none of the Hebrew bible is trustworthy. There is an axiom, that Xtianity can be wrong and Judaism right, but in no way can Judaism be wrong and Xtianity right, since it is based on Tanach. Therefore E.L. you have underscored the fact that Xtianity HAS to be wrong, given that Tanach is wrong. Unwittingly you have BURIED Xtianity and rendered it to the trash heap.
“you are dishonest for you keep diverting and twisting and omitting points that took precious time to be delivered.”
Poor lion, We have all taken time to answer your questions as well, you just don’t like our answers. So, If your time is too precious, maybe it should be spent doing other things? What has rabbi B done wrong? Tell us, and we will remedy it if it needs to be remedied.
I don’t know why you have to get so angry at people for having a reading that is different than yours, especially when they can provide solid scriptural justification for their interpretation.
You agree that in your own book of revelation there is going to be a false messiah who arises, claims he is G-d, and who forces the world to worship him, right? Based on revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians?
Can you blame Jews for being hesitant to accept a view like that at all? Jews would never ever be fooled by such a person’s claims or propositions, precisely because the premise that any person is G-d en-fleshed is ridiculous. Jews don’t accept that premise based on Deuteronomy 4.
Sharbano again you did not answer the contradiction one bit. Plus your promote the gods of the pagans to your brothers. Hindus gods and wishing ill to somebody to do not come from Ruah Hakodesh but from your own distorted mind who should seek help.
Your hatred of Israel is amazing for you want us to follow your one eye sect in the accepting that your Interpretation of Tanakh should come only from you. Liberty of conscience, do you know what it means? Freedom comes from Elohei of Abraham Isaac and Yaakov.
Moshe being a Levite must be treated with care and well understood for a malediction stands on all Levite coming from our father Yaakov in Genesis 49:
“Simeon and Levi are brothers;
Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
6
Let not my soul enter their council;
Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
For in their anger they slew a man,
And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
7
Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
And their wrath, for it is cruel!
I will divide them in Jacob
And scatter them in Israel.
It appear that I will listen to Elohei Yaakov and take the warning of my forefather Israel and treat Moshe like you treat Yahshuo the Messiah…
P.S.: Yahshuo was not a Levite but a Yehudi and salvation comes from the true Yehudim not from the Levite they are only servants of the Glorious People…
Hey, folks, do you realize what Eliyah Lion is saying? He will perceive Moses the way we perceive Jesus–that is, as a false prophet.
According to Lion, Moses is a false prophet and Jesus is a true prophet. Truly astonishing, especially in light of the fact that EVEN JESUS DIDN’T BELIEVE THAT.
Also, even Jesus didn’t believe that the God of the Hebrew Bible was a tyrant and a dictator. This guy is a piece of work!
I’ll have to admit, I have debated many a Xtian but the words that are put forth here are ones I have never ever encountered before. It is truly unique. I can’t help but wonder if other Xtians have similar opinions of Moshe Rabbeinu. It Would explain the dismissal of Torah by so many.
Well, well, well. Once again you have skirted the issue of Stephen. I do realize the consequences if you were to address that issue. The ruach you have put your soul on the line for is found to be deficient and flawed. It is interesting that not a single Xtian will pursue this dilemma. Instead they will make EVERY effort to avoid it. If one cannot confront their OWN texts than the entire religious premise Should be re-evaluated. The Talmud is full of questioning all there is. There is no fear to pursue the truth. If Emet comes from G-d then to understand G-d we must understand His Emet.
Sharbano lying is forbidden even in the case against Christians. Or may be the Talmud permits it for certain case like this one.
I know what I have written in case you forgot or may be want to distort…
Eliyah Lion says:
June 8, 2015 at 1:32 pm
(Second Edition)
Genesis 46 the counting of 70 relatives to Yaakov
vs
Acts 7 v.14 where Stephen says they were 75
Very simple I did the math and there NO CONTRADICTION here. For Genesis 46 in the number 70 are not included the daughters nor the wives of Yaakov nor the wives of his sons.
Stephen refers to Yaakov relatives going to Egypt including the daughters + the wives (of Yaakov) but not Joseph and his sons for they were in Egypt already. This is very coherent.
Genesis 46 says: ”All the persons of the house of Jacob who went to Egypt were seventy.”
According to modern standard that statement is not true. The wives nor the daughters are included in this count. For the 70 includes Joseph and his sons although they are already in Egypt … The critic that you made of Stephen could apply also to Moshe who wrote Genesis… What happen another contradiction!
Than you dare to criticize Stephen when he says 75: ”14 Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people.”
70-Joseph-Manasseh-Ephraim(already in Egypt)=67+4 wives+daughters might give us 75 for the exact numbers of daughters is not certain for Léah had many daughters the known one was Dinah + Aser daughter.
I find Stephen pretty well inspired taking the wives and the daughters into consideration. There is an evolution in the status of women in the NT… I would had included the wives also of the sons of Yaakov but it is another topic…
Well now, you have to resort to making excuses for Stephen that has no basis in the written word. You haven’t actually counted the number because the wives of Yaakov ARE counted. Also listed are Joseph and his sons. The Artscroll Tanach actually makes it quite simple. There is a family tree that lists all who are counted. What we DO KNOW is that Stephen was quoting the Septuagint. In one place it has 70 and another has 75. That’s why it is suspicious of WHO it was that wrote the book of Acts, and when. To use the caveat that “according to modern standard” is ridiculous and ludicrous. Torah is Torah and what it says is what it says, notwithstanding your attempts to justify mistakes. I DO like the way you put it, “67+4 wives+daughters MIGHT give us 75 for the exact numbers of daughters is not certain”. MIGHT give us, MIGHT. This is a desperate attempt to reconcile what cannot be reconciled. As I said we DO KNOW where the MISTAKE CAME FROM, the Septuagint.
Now that we have literally DESTROYED your argument lets go to the other flagrant Mistakes, The mistake regarding Sh’chem, Machpelah and blood. Even MORE examples of YOUR RUACH being faulty and the dishonesty of it all.
Sharbano. Do the count no women where counted… Or May be you are too lazy to do the math. Verify verify!! That is always a duty. No blind faith but the proof of the Dabar Elohim.
Take a paper and read Genesis 46. Actually I will help you for the first part Leah’ sons:
8 Now these were the names of the children of Israel, Jacob and his sons, who went to Egypt: Reuben was Jacob’s firstborn. 9 The sons of Reuben were Hanoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi. 10 The sons of Simeon were Jemuel,[a] Jamin, Ohad, Jachin,[b] Zohar,[c] and Shaul, the son of a Canaanite woman. 11 The sons of Levi were Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. 12 The sons of Judah were Er, Onan, Shelah, Perez, and Zerah (but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan). The sons of Perez were Hezron and Hamul. 13 The sons of Issachar were Tola, Puvah, Job,and Shimron. 14 The sons of Zebulun were Sered, Elon, and Jahleel. 15 These were the sons of Leah, whom she bore to Jacob in Padan Aram, with his daughter Dinah. All the persons, his sons and his daughters, were thirty-three.
It says 33 but although it is said: ”All the persons, his sons and his daughters, were thirty-three.” No women, daughters or wife are included in the count. If it is the case here the 70 number is symbolic only and represent an hidden message not to be taken literally. Check with the rabbis they will confirm my claim.
PLUS I provide you what you might not have read…
Genesis 46 says: ”All the persons of the house of Jacob who went to Egypt were seventy.”
According to modern standard that statement is not true. The wives nor the daughters are included in this count. Also the 70 count includes Joseph and his sons although they are already in Egypt … Apparently contradicting this:”the house of Jacob who went to Egypt”
P.S.: I will talk about the apparent Sichem contradiction. Do not worry!
Shalom!!
Sharbano, I don’t know what you are going to with this, it’s too funny for words:
“It says 33 but although it is said: ‘All the persons, his sons and his daughters, were thirty-three.’ No women, daughters or wife are included in the count. If it is the case here the 70 number is symbolic only and represent an hidden message not to be taken literally.”
Symbolic? SYMBOLIC?? Geez.
What you are doing is attempting to rewrite Torah in your own image. The COUNT is the COUNT. Torah says 70, does it not. You can try and twist it until the sun doesn’t shine but that doesn’t change the Words of Torah. Since you can’t make Stephen RIGHT you have to find a distorted method for your Ruach to be valid, even though we’ve shown how desperate YOUR Ruach is. Since the Torah says EXPLICITLY 70 and Stephen says 75 it is Proof Stephen is wrong. As I said, we DO KNOW where he got the 75. It comes from the Septuagint. That Septuagint DOES SAY 75. So, evidently YOUR Ruach only knew the Septuagint and NOT the Hebrew Torah.
What is even MORE ridiculous is your statement “According to MODERN standard that statement is not true” Really. REALLY. THIS is your argument. This is truly laughable in the extreme.
A contradiction?? “the house of Jacob who went to Egypt” Are you saying Joseph is not part of the household, OR, that Joseph never went to Egypt. You have become SO VERY desperate you are unable to grasp the words. Obviously Stephen didn’t know the reason for the 70 and neither do you. That’s why you have to say “modern standards”, instead of Hashem’s standards.
Actually guys, this guy isn’t unique at all as it pertains to Christian history. This guy holds similar opinions to a guy named Marcion of Sinope, a gnostic dualist from the 2nd century. He rejected the Tanakh and believed only in the “New Testament.” In fact, Marcion was the one who coined the term New Testament. He was regarded as heretical by every orthodox Christian.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm
Con Marcion was an heretic but he was mind boggle by the apparent disparity of the New and the Ancient… Being Orthodox I do not subscribe to Marcion view.
For my part the Ancient is not Ancient and irrelevant on the contrary the Alliance still holds but without no need of interpretations in the view of distorted minds. I hold on to Holy Tradition in the pure and true view of the Ruah Hakodesh (the Author of all the Tanakh) for She the Eternal Wisdom teaches all her children-elect; for She recognizes her children.
For your part you just demonstrated your INCOMPETENCE in resolving APPARENT contradictions for only an unified mind can resolve what seems to be an incoherence. I believe in the Holy Scriptures being all inspired but with possible errors in the translation to other languages. The HEBREW text is without any Errors!!
I resolved the “contradictions.” You are just too proud to look at my responses. Peace to you man.
In your vehemence in your insults against the observant Jews on this blog, you most certainly are resembling Marcion. You accuse G-d in Tanakh of contradicting himself as it pertains to laws against killing and images. (that’s a classic gnostic approach to reading the Bible.) You make Jesus into Moses’ competitor, instead of someone who observed laws that Jews observe today. In what way are you not Marcionite in your opinions?
Read carefully. You read with an English mind. I’m from the Middle East my way of expressing myself is to confront your own contradictions that can only be resolved honestly by first humility of mind, second by a submission to the Truth, third by unification of your mind with the Mind Elohim…
I hope for you but you must do your work of repentance toward the light of the Emounah as Moshe did it for 40 years in the desert. Purification with fire is a pre-condition to enter Shama’in.
Shalom!!
What does being middle eastern have to do with it? I have middle eastern heritage too you know. Just because a person reads English, doesn’t make it impossible to understand your methodology. In fact, type concerned reader into the blog search and read some of the posts addressed to me. See how much I a actually do understand where you are coming from.
“unification of your mind with the Mind Elohim…”
I submit that its hubris (from Jew or gentile) that makes humans think they can read hashem’s mind.
Marcion’s view makes so much more sense, Con. Obviously, I don’t agree with it. But the contradictions between Tanach and Christian scripture are irreconcilable, and apparently Marcion realized this.
Dina, with respect, if Marcion had been followed by the Church, it would have likely been worse for Jews, (if that were possible.) He viewed hashem basically as a demon that should be opposed at all costs, so, anti antisemitism would have remained, but with no route to recovery for seekers to follow. I’m thankful he wasn’t followed. None of the progress during Vatican II (as small as it was) would have been possible with Marcionites.
Also, at least some of Jesus’ opinions can be found among the halacha of the second temple period. At least there is a historical Jew underneath all the theology. Marcion would have rather died than admit that.
That’s a fair point, Con; I hadn’t thought of it that way. As horrible as Marcion’s beliefs were, though, they were easier to defend because they didn’t need to be reconciled with Hebrew Scripture, if that makes any sense.
It does, but it’s much more excellent that we don’t have to read Jesus as a rabid anti Jewish monster. There is enough historical data to show that he (like others) has been greatly misused by over zealous followers.
Lion,
You ask:
“Tell me what is the difference between you and your view and fanatics Muslims who wants to kill all my brothers Christians and Jews??”
This question is not a serious question. It is only an attempt to discredit those who have shown you to be wrong. I would warn you that such tactics only make you look foolish, but I do not mind if you make yourself look foolish. So, fire away!
Let me answer your question. I think the answer is so obvious that I should not need to give it, but a mind that is unable to understand the difference between murder and killing is unlikely to know the difference between strong disagreement and a call for annihilation. So I must oblige you.
The answer: I do not call you your extermination.
The question is so mind-bogglingly (forgive me for using such harsh language) stupid, that it could easily be turned around on yourself: “What is the difference between you and those who wish to exterminate the Jewish people?” You will find that question as equally stupid as the one you asked me, even more stupid, because you are of Jewish blood yourself. (At least you claim to be.) And yet we have seen historically that there are Jews who have turned against their people. And the history of the Church has been none too kind to the Jewish people.
(It has also not been too kind against other Christian sects. Perhaps you wish to persecute all the non-orthodox Christian sects. What is the difference between you and the other supposedly orthodox sects that wished to eliminate all contentders?)
Historically speaking, there have been two different ways that people have tried to exterminate the Jewish people. The first, as typified by the events celebrated in Purim, is the attempt to exterminate them physically. The Holocaust was the most recent wide spread attempt. The second, as typified by the events surrounding Channukah, is to rid the Jews of their Torah, of making them assimilate. In the instance of Purim, the attempt was to Hellenize the Jews. And sadly, there were many Jews complicit in the crime of attempting to destroy the soul of the Jewish people this way.
The Church has long been guilty of this second method. And many Jews along the way have been complicit, just as they were during the reign of Antiochus IV. People like Pablo Christiani, sadly, traded their birthright for a mess of pottage. And they tried to make their own people disappear. But they were unable to succeed. The Jewish people have remained loyal to the Torah. Certainly, many have fallen by the wayside, but a remnant has kept the ember of Torah glowing. The light of Torah has not gone out.
In recent years, some Jews who have likewise given themselves over to worship a man, have taken a new tack, but the goal is the same. They have turned away from the harsh measures of men like Pablo Christiani who advocated physical persecution. They have adopted a gentler method. They have sprinkled their speech with platitudinous professions of love. They, following their non-Jewish brethren, have softened their approach. In an attempt to make their foreign worship palatable, they have dressed it up in Jewish terms. They use a “B’rit Hadasha,” not a New Testament. They pepper their preaching with Hebrew terms. Jesus becomes “Yahsuo”. Disciples become “talmidim”. Christians become “Messihim”. They wrap themselves in the Torah, wolves in sheep’s clothing. They eschew outwardly all the Greek teachings. But it is only outward, for their ideas are still the same ideas which were foreign to the Torah 2,000 years ago.
They believe that they are doing the Jewish people a favor. And so they cannot understand when the Jewish people turn from these poor souls. They echo the words of their messiah, words of venom. The love becomes rage. “How dare you not believe on my say-so? I heard directly from HaShem.” Such people are much less Jeremiah or Micah and more the prophet who struck Micaiah. The early protestations of love become words laced with bitterness. “Vipers! One-Eyed hypocrites! Sons of the Devil!” And when the targets of their preaching and insults are offended, they claim it was all out of love. “It’s okay to call you a son of Satan if it’s true. The best thing I can do for you is tell you that you are an evil, mankind-hating being.”
Coincidentally, these are also the things said about the Jewish people by those who wish to eliminate them physically.
You thought that the Church of 1984 bore nothing in common to you. I am not so convinced as you are.
I can tell you this: It is much less a stupid question to ask if you are for the extermination of the Jewish people that you imagine it is. I do not campaign for the extermination of Christians. I do not even aim to convert them. But two methods have always been taken to exterminate the Jewish people, and you may not be as far from the second as you would like to believe.
Jim
Exactly, Jim.
“Tell me what is the difference between you and your view and fanatics Muslims who wants to kill all my brothers Christians and Jews??”
The difference is we don’t want to kill anyone. Your Church of 1984 captures the missionary mind perfectly.
Dina, as it pertains to Hebrew translations, no worries, I have an artscroll stone edition Tanakh, and I always reference the Tanakh on Chabad.org (for some rashi to read along with,) not too mention all the study Bible’s I’ve got.
Great resources, Con. For the sake of the non-Hebrew speakers in the audience I will continue to correct Lion’s mistakes but will address my comments to the audience in that case.
Shalom! Yisroel you asked: “Now if you are here for honest discussion then answer this question – how does Scripture expect the last generations of Jews to view the Sinai revelation?”
Malachi hanavi says:
4 “Remember Torah of Mosheh my servant, the decrees and judgements I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.
The return to Torah of all Israel not just the Yehudim but all Israel. That will usher the Messianic Era!!
Yisroel my only presence here and there is to plant the seed of reunification where each Houses (Yehudah and Israel) are join together if not the consequence will be bear by all who opposes the will of Eloah for it is written:
“or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.” (Malachi hanavi)
For my part at judgement day I will not be accused of having not promoted the reunification of the two Houses…
Lion,
Surely you do not believe that you will have considered as one who attempted to “unite the two Houses” when your attempts have been to smite others with your tongue. Surely, you do not think accusing people of perfidy is the act of a unifier. Is the wind that whispers in your ear so incompetent as to think that one does indeed attract more flies with vinegar?
Jim
Eliyahu As I thought – You have no understanding of the covenant that the Holy One shares with Israel. Israel (the last generation) is encouraged to see the Sinai revelation as the defining point of their covenant with God – read Deuteronomy 4:30-35. I suggest that you get a good French translation.
Dear Yisroel, you realize that I work on multiple fronts and can not be a two places in the same time. I always take your challenges seriously and as a brother I admonish many times and stir up in quest of the truth in all matters.
Therefore when you asked this question you wanted me to refer to Torah… I choose the way of our brothers the Prophets. The Law and the Prophets goes hand in hand as ONE. Unity is a central Principle of our Faith. YHWH ONE implies that HE IS SUPREME but that we are all called to share in His Glory if we accept His Dabarim… We are ONE under Him.
Now Malachi joins Deuteronomy with another perspective the one of the Division that must be conquered in other to unify everything under the FATHER ETERNAL YHWH.
If you look a Deuteronomy 4 carefully you will see that the NATION (all the tribes) is under the leadership of Mosheh. In the time of Malachi everything is divided and the NATION is dispersed.
Our goal is to promote unity in which those of the tribes of Israel dispersed in Babylon (the Corrupt church) might go back to the observance of Torah and be one again. The fathers must go toward their children in order that the sons heart might realize the Beauty of the Mitvot and the Torah…
P.S.: Among the Christians if they are receptive to Torah and the Observance of the Shabat that is a strong sign that they belong to one of the lost tribes of Israel. We must be receptive for the sake of Israel. We must love our country and be aware of the dangers surrounding us.
Now If I offended you or Jim or Con or Dina or Sharbano or Larry or all the others… I’m profoundly sorry for my love of our country Israel and my impatience might I have pulled up the beautiful flowers that you are all…
Shalom!
Schema Israel: YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH Ehad! May His reign be upon us all!!
Eliyahu
You obviously missed my point. Sinai is the definitive teaching on who it is we are to worship and who it is that we are not to worship unto the last generation. This utterly refutes the worship that you are promoting. Deuteronomy 4 also shows how your denigration of the Sinai revelation is a fight with God.
Dear dear Yisroel, Because I refer to Malachi hanavi I denigrate the Horeb revelation. That is hard to follow dear brother. Please explain!
What is for you the core of Torah? Is it more important than the Prophets? Or Torah and the Prophets goes hand and hand?
Now in reference to Malachi the warning is pretty clear if fathers and sons do not go back toward each other her what will happen:” or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
Here is some context:
4 “Remember a torah of my servant Moses, the decrees and judgements I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5 “See, I will send the prophet Eliyah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
You understand things with your mind. I will understand it in the order I have been taught: Wisdom Elohim teaches her children like She taught Mosheh.
My Beloved is YHWH ELOHIM!! Can you claim the same? If you can not …ask you why? For only those who are in the Shakhinah can call the holy Name of YHWH and call Him the BELOVED!
Open your heart do not be like the tablets stones but let the Torah be written in your heart that you may see How YHWH is GOOD!!
Eliyahu You claim to be a prophet – it seems that even you do not believe yourself because you do not take your own words seriously. It is not because you quote Malachi that I say you denigrate Horeb but because you denigrated Horeb with your own words – in a comment from June 7
You keep quoting Malachi and what does it say. It speaks of the Torah of Moshe, which, interestingly, you have denigrated, and nothing about a messiah. Surely if this were the focus of the entire Torah then by all means it Should be mentioned here.
Dear brother Yisroel, are you a judge among your brothers? A Danite in disguise?
I have made my apologies to you and to all: for I said June 9, 2015 at 2:36 pm :
”Now If I offended you or Jim or Con or Dina or Sharbano or Larry or all the others… I’m profoundly sorry for my love of our country Israel and my impatience might I have pulled up the beautiful flowers that you are all…”
Shalom!
Now if you a special point of contention for me to examine I will gladly do it in Humility for the sake of all. Therefore please identifies those points as a prosecutor of HaShem.
For my part I still asked you some questions that still remain in the field. Your answer could be beneficial to all. Todah!
Eliyahu I am not sure which question you are referring to but if you are referring to the question based on “making man in our image” I have answered that one in the article entitled “The Council of My Nation” several years ago. Some of the commenters on the blog also answered it in response to your comments. If there are any other questions – read the blog – you will find the answers. You however have still not given a real answer – do you think that you are Elijah the Prophet? This is a yes or no question.
Dear Yisroel, quoting Malachi hanavi does not mean that I think I’m Eliyahu The Prophet.
One thing is certain YHWH ELI knows who is his chosen one. But one thing I can tell you: Yes I do know Eliyahu and his coming is approaching very fast.
Actually that is a question that I’m asking and that you never posted nowhere:
Do you know the Order of Eliyahu (Mysterious Society from Shama’im) ?
Do you know the mighty role of Eliyahu Order in the establishment of Israel reign?
No Messiah can be proclaimed that Eliyahu must confirms first…
YHWH gives to each one of us a special mission for the sake of His People first and for the sake of Humanity. That he gave me a gift of prophecy has been tested: In 1992, when George Bush was seeking a second mandate, he lost that we know. But I had a prophetic saying that he will be elected again. Honestly I did not pay attention, years went by and found the saying of no value until in 2000 a George Bush (the son of George Bush) was elected in controversy… I understood then that this saying was true.
I could show you other examples. I had also visions but one I will tell you that happened very recently in my dream or in prayer I do not remember. There is the vision:
I was standing and appear to me in the front of me an immense ocean of water that was powerful but also gentle in the same time with a sense of peace and love emanating. But behind me was an ocean of fire, luminous fire set to purify. Beautiful vision but terrible at the same time!
That is personal but a share it not to promote myself may the Elohim forbids it. But to magnify the Glory of YHWH. We are a glorious Nation set to be witness to the world that the One Elohim is Holy Powerful Love gentle to does who obey Him and terrible to those who rebel against Him.
Shalom to you dear brother-rabbi!
Eliyahu You did not answer the question – Do you think that you are Eliyahu Hanavi Yes? No? Unsure? It should be a one word answer. While you are at it – was John the Baptist Eliyahu Hanavi?
Yisroel, why should it be a one word answer? Yes you are a prosecutor and on that basis you demand short answers. Although the answer is in my previous response. My lawyer here of the defence tells me that my answer was enough for the judge.
Concerning Yohan the Baptist being a Levite He can not be the Eliyah although Yahshuo proclaimed him to be an Eliyah: what that meant is that Yohan was from the Order of Eliyahu but not the Eliyahu himself. My language I will concede is not transparent as a window but more as cloud to not burn your eyes…
Prophets are allowed to reveal what when how where and who … only to the order of HaShem, YHWH must be obeyed and He runs the Show not you or me or any man…
Hope you understand the coding I’m employing but for the rest I must obey.
Shalom to you dear brother!!
“Prophets are allowed to reveal what when how where and who … only to the order of HaShem, ”
We can say HERE that your definition of prophetic revelation is contrary to everything in Tanach. Are you suggesting all the books of the prophets didn’t reveal themselves. Didn’t Yirmiyahu have one who wrote it all down for everyone to know
We can declare that you don’t want to be found out that you are more than likely a false prophet. To say the above circumvents a Torah REQUIREMENT. No doubt you assumed that someone would do as I did in the last post, that is, to show proof of your prophetic ability. One thing is for certain, you keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.
“No Messiah can be proclaimed that Eliyahu must confirms first”
Since you have already stated that John the Baptist wasn’t Eliyahu and its conclusive that he has Not came then it goes without saying that Jsus is Not a messiah.
Since you ADMIT that you Have the gift of prophecy then according to Torah you must Prove it. Give us three clear and unambiguous prophecies to prove this assertion. Your “prophecy” of George Bush really attests to a flimsy anecdote of prophetic revelation. In fact you aren’t the first I’ve heard give such claims. All those previous claims would NOT submit to a prophetic test. In every case, as with your personal one, people will believe they are prophets. This being the case we can say Edgar Cayce was one of the greatest prophets of all time. There is a concrete difference between a prediction and prophecy. I suggest you fall into the former.
Malachi wants you to keep the Halacha of Moses, literally, to keep the way that Moses commanded Israel to walk in the commandments. Part of that is that Israel is commanded to worship and serve only the father. No other being is referenced beside him. If you truly want reunification, stop trying to advocate the worship of a being that walked around on this earth in human form.
If G-d can take the flesh of a human, why not the form of a bush, or a calf? Once you make allowance that G-d can manifest in one form, you are admitting that he can come in any form, thus exonerating all forms of idol worship.
Con You lied! All my post are always to the WORSHIP of YHWH ELOHIM EL-ELYON. I said this worship becomes true in His Dabar and Ruah.
Tell me what is against the Mitvot in this?
Plus I recognize Yahshuo as the Messiah of Israel establish by The ELOHIM.
What is wrong about that?
Plus I promote like all true witnesses the reunification of the TWO Houses.
What is weird about this?
Your idol worship accusation are to instill division and opposition to the Will of Eloah. That is a BIG sin!!
Be very careful not to be opposed to the Almighty!
Lion,
Are you physically incapable of posting a disagreement without accusing your opponent of lying? Do you have some condition that disallows you from keeping a civil tongue?
You ask what is wrong with recognizing Jesus-pardon, Yahshu-as the Messiah, etc. Must you always drag the conversation back to square one as if nothing had been said about this previously? Is the wind blowing so strongly in your ear that you hear no voices other than its buzzing?
It is clear that Jesus is not the Messiah, because he in no ways fulfills the definition of Messiah. The one qualification that you have cited for him is that he was resurrected. But not only is there no proof of this, resurrection is not a property of the Messiah. Invoking the name of God will not alter that fact.
But it is not that you assert that Jesus is the Messiah that is the great offense. That is just ignorant. But you attempt to make him divine. And it has been pointed out numerous time why this is a problem. God demands exclusive worship. He claims to be alone. He will not share his glory with another. Jesus is a god that the Jewish people did not know. In short, it is avodah zara to worship Jesus or any man. And Con’s comment, which you are answering addresses that point specifically. The Torah does not teach the Jewish people to worship any object associated with a “theophany,” not a burning bush, a man at Mamre, an angel of the Lord, or any other divine manifestations.
To ask your rhetorical questions: “What is wrong with that?” is incredibly disingenuous and is not worthy of the attention Con has given to these issues. Your defensive positions, rhapsodies, insults, and rhetorical querstions all bear in common the mark of not being arguments. You demand acknowledgement of the superiority of your position without demonstrating that superiority, the whole while brow-beating those who maintain the position of Torah.
Moreover, your citation of Malachi is self-serving eisegesis, forcing onto the scripture your own peculiar interpretation with no support from the text. You make the “fathers” and “sons” to be the Jewish people and the Christians–sorry, Messihim–when the text indicates no such thing. This product of the wind that blows through your mind is your own fancy. It reveals the lack of credibility for you positions, for you take a verse and impose on it whatever meaning you choose. And then, rather than show from the scripture why your interpretation is true, you appeal to a whispering wind that means that you are always correct and everyone else is always incorrect. Does Con or anyone really need to explain what is “weird about this”?
And now let us consider who it is that sows division. I submit to you that the Church is the sower of division. It is the Church that introduced the innovation of worshipping a man. This innovation itself creates division. In fact, the Church began to make converts of Torah-observant Jews, which can only mean they introduced something not already practiced. Moreover, it is the Christian who insists on his rectitude based solely on his own private revelation. This too is a source of division, insisting on subjective evidence to prove objective fact, not only divisive but foolish as well. Moreover, it is the Church that has come to the Jewish people and called them “one-eyed,” “blind,” “sons of the devil,” “vipers,” “hypocrites,” etc. These “acts of love” create obvious division. How uneasily you sit upon that high horse of yours.
If we are going to have these discussions, they must be honest. They must rely on evidence and sound argumentation. Your constant attacks on the character of your opponents is undeserved, and does nothing to further the conversation. It has only derailed it. (I know that I for one have found it necessary to waste several post addressing your caustic rhetoric, rather than addressing the issues, which I find much more to my liking.) Nor does it create the unity you espouse. Do not think that the minor lip service you have paid toward love covers up the great animosity you have displayed.
You owe Con an apology. But then again, he is only one in a long list of people you have maligned since your arrival here. I doubt that Con will hold his breath waiting for it.
Jim
It’s one thing to malign individuals here, but we have reached a level that even Torah is not spared maligning. It reminds me of a situation many years ago when a Xtian was debating me on some point and I decided to just Quote a verse from Torah. Now, I didn’t ascribe any meaning but merely read the pasuk. Interestingly, and similar here, the person said “That’s not what it means”. Obviously the person understood the plain meaning of the words but couldn’t accept those words. It appears history is repeating itself.
For my own part I have been glossing over the maligning. I’m much more interested in the subject matter and when I cross those words, which have No substance, I continue until there is mentioned something substantive. I merely conclude that the person is becoming frustrated in the inability to counter the argument.
Sharbano,
Thank you for your gentle admonishment. I have allowed myself to become angered on behalf of those whom I bear affection. These things are indeed only distractions. I shall attempt to keep your words in mind.
Jim
I had no desire or intent to admonish you and didn’t intend it to reflect that. I don’t mind the debate and a good argument has its benefits. It tends to hone the mind. Since I grew up in the environment of analytical thinking and the pursuit of debate I tend to gravitate toward that and seek the points worthy of debate. One thing I realize is I can be relentless in that pursuit. For me it only ends when there is no more that Can be said.
Jim and Sharbano are both right :). It’s good to focus on the substance and ignore the rhetoric, but a healthy dose of good, old-fashioned righteous indignation is also called for when the rhetoric crosses the line from heated to inflammatory.
A whispering wind has told someone here that the term Elokim is plural. This means, he says, that God is a compound unity. He is really made up of a “they”. As support for this view, he draws upon Genesis 1.26, emphasizing heavily the words “Us” and “image”. Before beginning, I would like to submit that this fellow does not ask this question in a legitimate fashion. He is correct to note the question, but he only notes it because he supposes he has an answer ahead of time. He does not read it to discover what it is that God is teaching. He reads it as an opportunity to impose on the text his own avodah zara. iIt is an opportunity for him to dismiss the teachings of Torah that God is One and that there is none beside Him. Therefore, he does not need to apply any thought to the question. He only need heed the whispering wind. But any honest consideration of the question will note the following facts:
1. The Torah was not given in a vacuum. To the contrary, it was given to a particular people, who had been instructed on how to understand God. These people had direct experience with God, having a shared revelation and shared experiences of his kindness. They had never been instructed that God was compounded of multiple persons in communion with one another. Instead, they had been taught that God was alone and One. So when they read Genesis, they had no conception that the term “Elokim” referred to a plural. Only someone outside of the tradition would have come to such a conclusion.
2. The term “Elokim” ends as male plural nouns do, with a yud and a mem sophit. This, however, does not make it plural. And if the whispering wind were giving insight rather than merely a product of the imagination, it would note that the verbs associated with the term “Elokim” are not plural. They are singular. Moreover, the pronouns associated with the term “Elokim” are singular, except in this one verse, and then, only in the quote (i.e. His pronouncement). The verse begins, “Vayomer Elokim”. (Pardon if the transliteration is rough. I am after all a baby, grappling with adult language.) Vayomer is a singular male verb. It is not a ‘they’ who said, “Let Us make man, etc.” It is a He. And it is a “He” that creates Man. It is my understanding, in fact, that virtually every time the term “Elokim” is used, it is used with a singular noun, meaning that the term is not referring to multiple persons.
3. The teaching of Genesis 1 is not focused on the nature of God. In fact it does not discuss the nature of God at all. Genesis 1.26 focuses in on the creation of Man. It’s teaching is about Man and not about God. It is not a sound practice, therefore, to attempt to take this verse and make it a teaching about the essence of God. It is not even sound to read backward from Man to try to understand God, because Man is only in God’s image. He is not like God. It is too bad that that whispering wind does not know sound principles of exegesis, but since its true agenda is eisegesis, it cannot be helped, I suppose.
4. When the Torah does teach about God, it does not tell us much. In fact, it indicates that one cannot understand God, at least not while alive. (See Exodus 33.) But one thing it does tell us is that God is One. It teaches that He is alone. It assigns to the Jewish people the task of testifying to this to the rest of the world. This is the open teaching of the Torah and the Prophets regarding God. When one comes to a question, then, like that in Genesis 1.26, he cannot impose a new meaning. His explanation cannot contradict the open statements. All he can recognize is that he has a question, and it must be examined within the parameters of the open statements of Torah. The question cannot have a meaning that contradicts the rest of Torah.
But again, I would point out that the whispering wind did not come with a question. It seized upon a question in the text to impose upon it a meaning that contradicts the clear and open teachings about Torah. This is not sound. It is intellectually dishonest. It trades the framework of the Torah for the framework of the Greek Testament. And it does not matter if the wind employs Hebraic terms to dress up its Greek ideas.
Make no mistake. The Torah states unequivocally that God is alone. There is none beside Him. He will not share his glory with another. To ignore these statements to impose a “communion” upon God because of one unclear verse that is not addressing the nature of God is unsound. It ignores not only the clear passages of scripture, it ignores the immediate context of the verbs associated with the term “Elokim”. The whispering wind did not seek to understand Torah. It has only sought to exploit a question to impose its own ideas onto the text. It seeks to justify the prohibited worship of a man. If it were otherwise, it would have noted the preceding facts before trying to answer its question. But this was no legitimate question for him, only an opportunity. There is a good question here, but the answers will not be found by seeking to impose one’s own agenda onto the text. One must stop listening to the wind, which serves as a distraction, but one must go over the facts until he comes to a sound conclusion. And then, he will understand what God teaches. He will have gained something real, not the ephemeral blowing of his imagination.
Jim
Jim, you’re learning Hebrew! That’s awesome!
To go with what Jim said, Exodus 20:3 (you shall have no other gods before me,) can be better translated as You shall have no other gods before/on my face. This commandment is directly saying, “don’t look at a thing on the earth, or in heaven, and say, that’s G-d.”
“I said this worship becomes true in His Dabar and Ruah.”
Ok Lion, but you are identifying this Dabar of HASHEM as a historical person who appeared to everyone on earth as though he was human. He walked around physically, he slept, he ate, he was like all other humans in all respects, ergo, as per Deuteronomy 4 HE CANT BE WORSHIPPED OR SERVED AS G-D (caps are for emphasis, not tone lion, no offense is meant.) If someone who looks, lives, and experiences death like all other human being tells me, “I am the Dabar HASHEM, and you must worship me, HE MUST BE REJECTED. This is tre of Jesus, of the Lubavitcher rebbe, of the Christian anti Christ figure, etc. if it bears semblance to what is on earth or In heaven, it’s not G-d.
Moses was called an “Elohim” before Pharoah, and he even delivered G-d’s words, but nobody either Jewish or Christian worships or prays to Moses. In fact, Moses’ body was likely hidden by G-d to prevent that kind of thing from happening.
Most dear brother Con,
Rest a sure that I worship YHWH ELOHIM the Supreme One the KING of the Universe and everything is submitted to Him by His Dabar and His Ruah.
YHWH is the Beloved of my heart.
Mosheh was called an elohim before Pharaoh for He performed Elohim service in His Name.
In the Gospel, Yahshuo was interjected by a man calling him Good Master. Yahshuo said to the man, why do you call me Good? For only the Elohim is Good.
To be a rabbi is not to be the Elohim
To be a messiah is not to be the Elohim
To be an angel is not to be the Elohim
To be a virgin is not to be the Elohim
To be a prophet is not to be the Elohim
…etc
Only YHWH is the Elohim! And all idols must be defeated.
The holy People are exclusively to the One Elohim because they listen to the Dabar Elohim and are nourished by the Ruah holy who inspired all holy scriptures. In all things honor, adoration, worship goes to YHWH ELOHIM the SOURCE of all.
So, you dispute Torah
How do you explain these:
וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֶל משֶׁה רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה וְאַהֲרֹן אָחִיךָ יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֶךָ:
עַל כָּל דְּבַר פֶּשַׁע עַל שׁוֹר עַל חֲמוֹר עַל שֶׂה עַל שַׂלְמָה עַל כָּל אֲבֵדָה אֲשֶׁר יֹאמַר כִּי הוּא זֶה עַד הָאֱלֹהִים יָבֹא דְּבַר שְׁנֵיהֶם אֲשֶׁר יַרְשִׁיעֻן אֱלֹהִים יְשַׁלֵּם שְׁנַיִם לְרֵעֵהוּ:
אֱלֹהִים לֹא תְקַלֵּל וְנָשִׂיא בְעַמְּךָ לֹא תָאֹר:
Sharbano where do I dispute Torah in Exodus 7 for it is written:
”So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. 2 You shall speak all that I command you. And Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land.”
Here you proclaimed that there is no elohim beside the Elohim and you make a citation that most people do not understand in Hebrew saying the contrary of what you are preaching.
The question here is why the Elohim made Mosheh as elohim to Pharaoh? And what does that mean? Please answer dear brother I’m listening for myself I know nothing… Thank you! Todah Rabah dear brother rabbi Sharbano… Be like Rashi uplift our hearts to the music of your wisdom and knowledge of Torah…
It certainly DOES NOT MEAN that Moses is divine, or to be worshiped as G-d.
Considering the context of your message I take it you are inquiring of a Rabbi’s opinion. That being the case I will defer to the actual Rabbi of the site, since I am no Rabbi only a diligent student.
Lion,
You have asserted that if God were not by nature in communion, then God would be a dictator. It would mean, in your mind, that God were not a god of love. And on that basis, on your antipathy to dictators, you declare that God cannot be a dictator. He must be a compound unity, so that He can have, as one of his inherent qualities, communion, and therefore, love. In essence, God is not a “He” but a “they”. This is unsound. God need not be comprised of multiple persons to act in love.
It should be obvious that the problem is one of your own making, anyway. You have not shown a contradiction in the definition of God as One person, alone. All you have shown is that such a conception of God is not to your liking. You have an emotional aversion to such a God. It is not what you want God to be. But I am sure that you noticed that reality does not tend to conform to your wishes. What is exists independently of your emotional reaction to it.
Moreover, the insistence of a communal godhead does not alleviate the problem you want to avoid. Let us assume such a godhead, the members of which cannot be dictators to one another, inasmuch as they are all eternal beings, possessing I assume, omniscience and omnipotence. They are equals. And then they, as equals, decide to make human beings.
Do they bear the same relationship to human beings as they have to one another? Clearly not. Human beings are not eternal, do not possess omniscience or omnipotence, and are wholly dependent upon the godhead for their existence. They do not have equal status with the godhead, nor an eternal communion. They may have some level of communion with the godhead, or at least members of it, but they do not have the same level of communion with the godhead as its members share with one another.
It is quite feasible that the godhead shares a joint dictatorship over humanity. Obviously the godhead does not have an absolute authority over its other members, but humanity is not part of that group. Humanity is totally dependent upon the godhead. And therefore, the eternal communion of the godhead has little to do with its relationship to humanity. Your communal godhead is no more clear of the charge of dictatorship than a lone God.
I thought to do this in one comment, but I will have to return with a second comment to finish up this topic. When I come back to it, I will show that God has acted to the good of humanity, though He is One, alone, not part of a community of gods.
Jim
Also Lion, the issue of the trinity (a communion of person’s) is made utterly irrelevant by Orthodox Christian doctrine itself. You are only supposed to focus on the father’s will.
CCC 253 The Trinity is ONE. We DO NOT confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”
Further Lion, there is that which is understood as the union of will in the trinity, viz the Son follows and is SUBJECT TO the will of the father. “Let not my will, but your will be done.”Luke 22:42. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Mathew 4:1-11.
This means (presumably) that the Son follows his father’s will. That will, is, you guessed it outlined in Moses’ TORAH!
Therefore if Jesus contradicts the Torah, he cannot be followed.
http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/one-god-one-divine-action-and-will
Boker Tov Jim! Very interesting comment. I see that you address head on a challenge and you responded quite eloquently. Obviously you have a gift for teaching. Glory to YHWH Elohim!
Effectively I’m strongly allergic to any form of Dictatorship. For Hitler, Staline, Napoleon are all men of Sin. They elevated themselves and crushed others. They exterminated those they do not like. They worship the god of war. They are monsters!!
And I could continue. Elohei Israel is not a Dictator that is for sure. Everything He does are made with His Hands. For by His DABAR and his RUAH He made the Universe. The compound Unity is all through the Tanakh but not explicitly. Why not explicitly because Unity and the Father are Imperative First.
The One Elohim wants to share His Glory and sent on a Mission His Dabar to spread His
seed(his dabarim) in the hearts of its Chosen People… All the nations where jealous of this Special Selection but we turned many times our back to the will of Eloah leaving a side the will to make us partakers to the Household of YHWH THE FATHER
Our history is a long Education to grow and to become holy like our Beloved is Holy. We are made in His Image. His Image is the Messiah for we are a Nation of messiah and prophets to proclaim the reign and the will of the ONE. We are his beloved children a nation of cohen.
Also to finish, all through Scriptures we see the Feminine side of El-Elyon, His Ruah Elohim, the Eternal Wisdom Shakhinah. Why do you think the fifth commandment was written on the the first of the two tablets? For our father and mother are an image of ELOHAI (ancient dual form of the Hebrew) YHWH FATHER-MOTHER: generating-conceiving eternally the DABAR Elohim the Beloved Son in which we all little dabarim are rattached if we keep his Consecrated Proposal the Alliance.
As those Dabarim were incarnate in tablets of stones and later parchments… The Dabarim-Eternal Seed are now growing in our hearts. We become living Dabarim by a life in accord with Torah. The Dabar made flesh is the summation of all Dabarim in One Messianic Body to enter Shama’im to reign with the One King as princes of the world to come.
”10
Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
11
So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
…
16
Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
17
I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.”
Note carefully Tehilim (Psalm 45) for it is very intriguing and delicious.
You see in all the Revelation there is no dictator the enemy is the dictator with his idols-demons. They rebelled against HaShem when He decreed that they (all the celestial beings) will bow down to Adam. Ask very knowledgeable rabbis they will confirm what I’m saying about Adam. Genesis also says:
Genesis 3:15
”And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
The seed of the woman it is us those who receives the dabarim elohim to become One with the Dabar Elohim to the Eternal Glory of YHWH!!
Lion,
Truly you have not answered my argument at all. You only comment on it. But your insistence that God is not a dictator bears nothing on the argument. The communal godhead that you imagine they must be is as capable of dictatorship as a non-communal God. Your insistence that God is not a dictator does not address the argument. It only sidesteps it.
You write that God wants to share His glory. This is exactly the opposite of what God says, for example in Isaiah 42:8, where He says that He will not share His glory with another.
Rhapsodizing about your faith is unhelpful. It is also unhelpful to continue to rely on hints. What you show from your quotations, here and elsewhere, is that you read Tanach with an agenda. What you call hints are really opportunities, as I showed when discussing “Let Us make man in our image”. These are not hints you study carefully to determine their meaning. They are opportunities to put your words in the mouth of God.
I will tell you what I told another commenter here. The Tanach is not a puppet into which you may impose your voice. When you write of the fathers and the sons in Malachi, for example, nothing in the text indicates that the fathers are the Jews and the sons the Christians. This is a mere fancy of yours. It is an unjustified reading that makes the prophet to mean that Jews and Christians are to become unified under one faith. (And which faith? The Christian one of course. Bah!)
It is base, therefore, for you to impose your idolatrous notions upon the fifth commandment. Once again you use a question that is not a question to put your voice into the mouth of the Torah. The Torah does not make reference to your mother-father-son godhead. What you see is an opportunity to rewrite Torah. How readily you dismiss Deuternomy 4, where it is outright stated that God is alone and there is none with Him! This open statement you ignore and then impose upon the commandment to honor one’s parents a notion that God is not alone but is generating godlings through pseudo-sexual union.
(From the top of my mind, and someone correct me if I’m wrong: the Torah does not tell us that the fifth commandment was on the first tablet, right? Is that not mesorah? If so, then what allows you, Lion, to seize upon whatever part of the mesorah you can to fashion your own theology and ignore the parts you do not like? The very source of your question is a mesorah you deny.)
And I note that you, like so many other Christians who have come here, are particularly zealous in guarding the words of Jesus. You accuse me of twisting his words to fit my view. And yet, how readily you put your own words into the mouth of HaShem! Where is the zealous guarding of the Torah? You treat the Torah as an opportunity to create your own theology, little caring for what it says, but what you can make it say.
You pay so much lip service to how you love God. And yet you treat His words as your play things. You twist them into whatever shape fits the confused notions you have learned in your Church. You do not grant Him the respect you grant Jesus, not by half. You make noises about his superiority and how Jesus points to Him, but you have honored the words of Jesus far more than you have honored God’s. And you have made the goal of God’s words to point to Jesus, not the other way. Even holy days, set aside to remember the blessings of HaShem, you have turned into days devoted to Jesus.
I find myself deeply troubled by this. I wish you did too.
Jim.
Standing ovation!
According to your theology then Mary, the mother of Jsus MUST have been the Shechinah. When you keep referring to this Davar you are employing the Greek Logos. And we know how pagan the Greeks were. I assume you are getting this from the book of John. If I’m not mistaken those words WERE not part of the original manuscript. Considering what the intention of the Greeks were we can attest to the fact it doesn’t come from Hashem.
Your use of Gen 3:15 is clear indication you are using what is referred to as Eisegesis. It doesn’t matter what the text says you want to twist it to your liking.
There is the Midrash about Moshe when given the Torah and he asked G-d about the wording of Genesis and G-d said the idolaters will be idolaters no matte what or how it is written.
Lion,
Continuing my comment on whether or not God is a dictator if He is not part of a communal entity from here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/09/14/messiah-letter-and-spirit/#comment-19210 .
We have already seen that a communal godhead does not ensure a non-dictatorial, loving God. Now let us ask ourselves if your contention that a God Who is not part of a communal godhead is necessarily a dictator that does not act with love toward His creation.
It is rather difficult to write about God. Probably the truest statement that can be made about God is that the human mind cannot truly grasp Him. But, without delving into a difficult philosophical discussion, it can probably be safely said that God is perfect.
And now it occurs to me that I must take a short digression on what it means that God is perfect. Too frequently, people mistake the notion of God’s perfection to mean that He is morally perfect, that He can do no wrong. This is not what I mean by perfection. When I say that God is perfect, I mean that He is complete. His existence relies on nothing else. He has no needs or wants. He does not require anything to maintain his well-being or to give Himself pleasure. God wants nothing. This I am going to take as axiomatic, because it would take some time to prove it. However, I believe this conception of God is perfectly in line with Torah.
And now, assuming His perfection, let us consider, if He is truly alone, truly unique, does this make Him devoid of love?
To answer the question, we must understand that God’s creation of the world is not for His sake. It cannot be, because He lacks nothing. His creation of humanity is not motivated by loneliness, a desire to be worshipped, or a desire to amuse himself. In fact, using the word “desire” at all is a problem. But human speech is limited, and I am even more so, and so I must make do with whatever I’ve got. Since none of these is God’s reason for Creation? It appears to me that He can only have done it for the sake of the Creation. It is an act of kindness, an act of love.
And His commands? None of them is for His sake, either. One cannot harm nor benefit God. He is perfect. Nothing can be taken from Him nor added to Him. The commands of God are not for His sake. They do not protect Him, nor do they promote His welfare.
No, His commands are also for our sake. His commands benefit us. They promote the welfare of humanity and draw us close to our Creator. They too are an act of kindness on His part. They help us regulate relationships with one another. They help us regulate our relationship with ourselves (e.g. by curbing out appetites). They help us regulate our relationship to Him.
His commands are a blessing, a great kindness from the great Benefactor of humanity.
Now I have shown two things. First, I have shown that a communal godhead does not mean a loving non-dictatorial God. Second, I have shown that a lone God does mean an unloving dictatorial God. The God who testifies that He is alone and that there are none beside Him is not, because of that, a tyrant. This objection of yours rests solely on your emotion and has no bearing to reality. A consideration of the truth requires that we strip away our emotions and weigh carefully facts and logic. We must not blind ourselves with prejudice, or we will be led astray. Even the smallest error may grow large, when it is compounded with the many corollaries that seem to follow from a false belief.
Jim
I wonder, could it be that EL thinks that G-d alone cannot control Himself and therefore needs a feminine side to keep Himself in check. This sounds borderline of a Greek Zeus. What is true is that G-d wanted to create the Universe with Strict Justice (Elokim) and thus the beginning says G-d created. In His Wisdom He knew that mankind would not survive and thus created man with Mercy (Hashem). When man was created it was done with Hashem Elokim (Mercy AND Justice). Thus the “Our Image, Our Likeness” can very well mean man will have both mercy and justice.
Jim, your are an intelligent man but I’m afraid that philosophy will not answer correctly the ancient question of who is God, his essence, his attributes, his virtues … You said that He is perfect giving us a sort of definition where according to your conception perfect is synonym of sufficient.
You said “However, I believe this conception of God is perfectly in line with Torah.” I for my part is do not consider it sufficient…
Perfect is much more for it includes all the virtues: Merciful, Just, Compassionate, Caring, Gentle, Strong, Loving, Patient, Intelligent, Wise, Beautiful… all at the infinite level…
A question does arise though that divides us: Is the Father Eternal Alone or One or both? He is One! Yes! Alone with Himself? No
If the Father Eternal the Supreme One is alone having No Relations in his Being, than how can he be Love or Loving for Love is a Communication or a Communion or a Movement toward the Other? If His essence is not Holy Love and Pure Light how can He creates? For creating requires a donation of oneself to the object created…
This explains why from a Beginning Elohim said together: “Let us make man in Our image according to Our likeness” Those dabarim are powerful and not to be taken lightly…
Let us examine the Relations in the Elohim:
In the Tanakh the Movement the Dynamic Power is the Ruah Elohim
The Dabar Elohim is in the Ruah the book of instruction(the TORAH) who creates everthing…The Father Eternal is the Source of All, the One who unifies: the One who is One meaning the Source Supreme:
“Scheme Israel, YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH Ehad. You will love YHWH Eloheikha of all your heart, of all your soul, of all your might.”
For my might like all humans is limited, my heart though aspires to love more the Beloved and only in his Dabar and Ruah can we love mightily.!! Ameen!
Lion,
You have missed the point of the argument and so you have returned to items that have nothing to do with it. Your argument was that a God who was not in communion with other godhead beings must be a dictator. I have only shown that this is such a God need not be devoid of the love you claim He is. I have also shown that your conception does not mean that God would not be a dictator. The god-beings you envision are no less capable of having a dictatorial relationship with man than a Single Being, based on the inequity of the relationship to man. So your argument regarding the dictator status of a God Who is Alone is an empty argument.
Your insistence on all the other traits of God do not relate to the argument. That said, I think if you actually apply your mind to the ones you named, you will see that they do not bear any meaning in relation to God before the Creation. I think you will also see that you have conceptualized a God Who is not the Author of all things, but is Himself subject to the virtues. What you take to be a way to praise God is actually a diminishment of God. You have Him subject to preexistent ideas to which He must conform. However, I will not make the argument regarding these facts here. If you choose to reflect on the matter, I think you will understand what I mean. If not, not.
You ask a question: “If… how can God be love?” The Torah does not say that God is Love. This is a conception that comes from the corrupt New Testament. But I do not think that there is one place in all of Tanach that claims that God is love. This question of yours is irrelevant. It is rooted more in emotion than in reason.
But I have already demonstrated that if God is a perfect being, then He has extended great kindness to humanity. He has created Man for Man’s benefit solely. This is a level of unselfishness that we cannot imagine or understand. And what is love but to act to benefit another?
Regarding if God is light, He is not that either. He created light. He spoke it into existence, and not from Himself. There was nothing, and then there was something. He willed it into being. Until that point there was no light. And I do not think He is called light in Torah one time. But if he was, then I am certain it was only a metaphor, just as when it says that He carried Israel on His wings. This does not mean that He has wings, but that He supported Israel like an eagle carries its children on its back.
And finally, you say that God is not alone. Your mere assertions that He is not alone are in flagrant opposition to scripture. Manipulation of scriptures that contain riddles will not alter what is said openly about God. It has already been pointed out to you that Deuteronomy 4 speaks to God being alone, not once but twice. We are told that there is none with God and that this is the testimony of the Jewish people that they are to carry. Stuffing your fingers in your ears and insisting that God cannot be alone because you do not wish Him to be does not alter the facts.
It is mere lip service to declare that God is One and then spend the rest of your time arguing that He is not One. By the way, the proper pronoun to employ when speaking of multiple persons, as you suppose to make up the godhead, is not “he” but “they”. This is particularly necessary since you believe that HaShem is not able to create on His own, but His power is limited and reliant upon your female wind.
In fact, you will see that you do not believe that God is omnipotent at all. For, if one cannot create on His own, there is some limit to His power. And if the god-wife you envision is also unable to create on her own, then she also has only a limited power. And two limited magnitudes, however great, do not combine to make an unlimited magnitude.
But that digression, while important, is beside the point. The Torah says explicitly that there is none besides God. You say otherwise. But since we both acknowledge that the Torah is true, we know that you are mistaken.
You will also see that the Torah does not teach that one need your wind or word to love God. This concept does not exist in Torah at all. These are foreign innovations. In fact, when it speaks of loving God, it speaks of keeping His commandments. It does not speak of approaching Him through the Messiah, through the word, through the wind, or some other gate. You will find that while these may be other gates, the paths to which they open do not lead to God. They are deviations and distractions.
Jim
Eli Lion, if you were a messenger of G-d, you would speak clearly, and concisely, without clouds or code phrases. G-d spoke clearly, and not in riddles with his servant Moses, (as per numbers 12) so why should we listen to your riddles when we KNOW that G-d spoke, and Moses delivered a clear concise message?
Further, G-d said plainly, I will send you Elijah the prophet, he did not say I will send you one in the spirit of Elijah the prophet, or someone like Elijah. If John the baptist is not Elijah, as you’ve said, you’ve just proved everybody’s point. THERE IS NO INDICATION FROM TORAH that an Elijah type will come, but that Elijah himself will come.
Further Lion, John himself testified that HE WAS NOT ELIJAH! JESUS JUST MADE THAT IDEA UP ON THE SPOT. Where in the Torah alone are we told about a metaphorical coming of someone “in the order of Elijah?”
You are literally apologizing for differences in your book when compared text to text with the Torah. It does not square with a plain straightforward reading of the Torah. When G-d gave the Torah he commanded that it be recited in front of EVERYONE in the community yearly. How is it that Everyone (man woman and child) can hear the Torah and understand it? BECAUSE THERE ARE NO RIDDLES IN THE MEAT AND BONES OF JUDAISM. G-d is one, these are his commands, now go and do them. That’s it!
Shalom to all! Very heated debate! Us Yehudim love to debate! Very good! Although (and this comes often )you forget a lot of Holy Scriptures that I cite that you do not address… Let us look at Psalm 45:
”10
Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
11
So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
…
16
Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
17
I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.”
Note carefully Tehilim (Psalm 45) for it is very intriguing and delicious.
1)David Hamelek through the holy wind tell us that a daughter of Israel is to forget her father’s house… What does that mean?
2) More intriguing instead of your fathers shall be your sons whom you (the woman) shall make princes in all the earth… Hmm! Who is that woman??
If someone can answer this riddle not by me but by David the king, indeed he has true wisdom and intelligence of Scriptures.
Who is up to the challenge? Let us see your wisdom and let us compare…
Especially that this woman will be praise forever and ever… Hmm! Intriguing!!
You see How David spoke the truth that the One Elohim can share his Glory with His children and here an intriguing daughter-woman…Who is that woman??
Lion,
First, I am not Yehudi. I am a ben Noach.
Second, do not pretend that you have addressed all of our points while we have not addressed yours, please. There are many arguments that you have not addressed. You still have not addressed the burial places of the fathers according to Stephen, and the error that entails while filled with your holy spirit. Many of the arguments I have made you have either ignored or not seen. In your comment here, you do not bother to address the rebuttal of your eisegetical reading of the fifth commandment, just as you did not respond to my points regarding “Let Us make Man, etc.”. So please do not act as if you have addressed our arguments in toto while we have ignored yours, too cowed by your superior knowledge to address the issues.
Third, I, like you, have limited time. That means that I do not address everything I would like to address. I try to get to it when I can. Some points get lost along the way, not through neglect but because of time constraints and, sometimes, eventual forgetfulness. If you find a point particularly important, I do not mind looking at it, but I am not on your schedule. And I will expect reciprocation. Reciprocation means not only addressing our arguments, but doing it in a meaningful way. Rhapsodic flights of fancy are worthless, bringing only obscurity. Nor do I care for flattery, only an engagement with the facts and arguments.
Fourth, do not think that just because you are able to pull another verse out of context that you have now “scored a point.” Inasmuch as my argument is that your whole method of “interpretation” is flawed, deputizing another verse or passage does not grant you automatic victory. Labeling the Psalm as David’s riddle rather than your own does not give you license to read into it whatever suits your fancy. The interpretation must still fit within the Torah framework and consider contextual clues, not the blowing of your whispering wind.
Fifth, posing the challenge to us to answer your new riddle and setting yourself up as the judge of whether or not we have read it correctly is disingenuous. I do not look for you to crown me as one to have “true wisdom and intelligence of the scriptures”. I am nothing more than a student, and a baby at that. And my endeavors are not to win your respect. I seek only to understand truth. I seek only to understand the teaching of HaShem, His Torah. I am disinterested in a contest of wits (which I must assuredly lose.)
All that said, I will take a look at Psalm 45 when I have a moment.
Jim
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/jewish/Chapter-45.htm#showrashi=true
NICE TRY LION, FAIL!
Psalm 45:8 You loved righteousness and you hated wickedness; therefore JUDGE, your Judge, anointed you with oil of joy from AMONG YOUR PEERS. Judges is an equally valid translation of elohim.
READ ISAIAH 49 AND THE COMMENTARY OF RASHI on THIS Psalm OH LION THE CLEVER ONE. 😉
Just Because the verses say Elohim and “praise” doesn’t mean G-d is sharing divine glory/service or that the term Elohim refers exclusively to Hashem, as even your Jesus admitted in
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”‘? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE (cf. Mathew 23:1-3 Mathew 5:17-18) –36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? cf. Hosea 11:1 (I ALL srael is G-d’s son.) Also, Jesus saying I and the father are one doesn’t mean Jesus is claiming to be G-d’s equal, see John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
Jesus wants his students to be one as he and the father are one. Can you tell me with a straight face that Jesus was saying that we are all G-d and fit for worship? ITS A METAPHOR BROTHER!
I’m surprised (as a hebrew speaker, you don’t know how many usages of Elohim and the word praise?
This is one of the many passages that causes me to question whether the text was written by Jews. It is this that may be the reason that Torah is considered harsh and without compassion. Any Jew with any education, even back then, would NOT have jumped so quick to stone a person. The same with Jsus saying “an eye for an eye”. It is obvious there that it is not to be the punishment. It may be that E.L. is confusing the way the Xtian text is written and THAT is how Torah is. Many a Xtian has used the blaspheme part of Torah to be the reason it is outdated and primitive, especially when I suggest Torah law should be followed nowadays.
Sharbano, the thing is, we don’t actually know who the authors of the NT texts were, (except for the authentic Pauline letters,) but it is certain that the text has been filtered through centuries of “preservation” by gentile Church scribes who had a theological agenda.
Therefore, one has to be very careful when reading it. Jews must have been involved in writing some of Jesus’ sayings down, (because when some of the oldest Greek (from texts like Mark) has been translated by scholars like Ehrman and Vermes back into a period proper Aramaic, the text and idioms flow better, and make better linguistic sense,) but still, scholars recognize much interpolation in the text.
The way I’ve learned to read the text personally, is to first ignore all the theology, and instead to get a firm footing in the text’s ethical teachings, requirements, and Church praxis, (and the ethics found in later 2nd-4th century Church manuals, that were followed by the different Churches,) to see how the Church actually expected people to behave in the early centuries in everyday life.
When Ive read the material that way, its easier to spot later manipulated interpolation, and I become more certain that Jews were involved somewhere along the line, because 2nd temple variants of the laws for G-d fearers are found throughout the early Christian literature, with Church fathers and writers often going into great detail about what is allowed, what is not allowed, etc. for a christian in everyday life. In many ways, those basic rules govern Christian practice very early on.
So, for example, when a Christian today comes up to me and says “Jesus abolished kosher, and made all food clean,” I simply look at early Church manuals of discipline for the facts about historic Christian practices, and say “Oh really? than why is consuming blood forbidden in Paul, in Acts, in 2nd-3rd century gentile church manuals and practice?” “why did prohibitions on fish and dairy spring up for lenten practices? Why is there fasting in the early churches, why were Ebionites vegetarian? why was meat sacrificed to idols UNIVERSALLY PROHIBITED TO BE EATEN? Ethiopian Christians to this day don’t eat pork. There are all of these customs in these churches about proper diet, and Jesus despised kosher? It Seems unlikely to be a historical fact when even Pauline gentile Churches had rules like this governing their practices.
hope all is well
On Deception
Recently a commenter has taken it upon himself to attack his opponents, often in rather harsh language, not his opponents’ ideas but them as people. Sometimes he calls them blind, a rather mild attack, if annoying. At other times, he has insisted that those who do not agree with him only do so because they are haughty, arrogant. At still other times, he has shrilly called those who disagree with him liars. It is this last charge that I would like to take up.
Let us first consider what a lie is not. A lie is not when one makes an error, either through faulty memory or faulty perception. It is also not a lie if one says that he will meet someone at 2:00 but, through not fault of his own, he is detained, say because of an event like a car accident.
For one to lie, intent to deceive is necessary. One must believe one thing and state another. This being the case, the Christian is not a lying when he says that Jesus is the Messiah, or that God is part of a Trinity. The Christian believes what he says. It is only that he is in error. The statements he makes are false, and in that sense they can be called lies, but he is not lying.
However, this does not mean that the Christian practices no deception. His sincere belief will not relieve him of this charge if he will employ false techniques to promote his faith. While I have no interest in attacking my opponents, it is important to note the deceptive practices they employ. This is of special interest when they declaim the lying they attribute to their opponents.
In the case of the Christian in question, he obfuscates so brazenly, it is less a deception and an insult to the intelligence of those he would convert. One of the ways he does this is to pronounce that none of his ideas are Greek in origin. They are all Jewish. To carry out this deception, he will use as many Hebrew terms as he can cram into a comment. This becomes an act of deception when the ideas are Greek but the terminology is Hebrew. One will not find in the Torah a personified “Debar Elokim,” a divine being descended from God and Wind. This comes out of the Greek “logos,” ideas that can be found in Plato and other Greek philosophers. Because the author of “The Gospel of John” invokes the idea, the Christian will deceive himself into believing that it is a ‘Jewish’ idea. And then, to maintain this deception for himself, and to draw others away after his fantasies, he will dress up the Greek language in Hebrew.
I think it important to note that the first deception that is happening is that the Christian deceives himself. (Actually, a prior deception likely happened. I am sure that someone told him that these ideas were ‘Jewish’ ideas.) The Christian is intellectually dishonest. He does not appraise the facts fairly. On some level he sees that his teaching is not in Torah, but he also knows that the Torah is true. So, he has to rewrite Torah to fit his theology. And one way to do that is to Judaize the language. He does not worship the Logos. He does not worship the Word. He worships the Debar. That sounds much more acceptable. But this superficial choice of word does not obliterate the underlying idea which he cannot locate in Torah. You will not find in Torah, “In the beginning was the Debar, etc.” (a rephrasing of John 1.1). The idea is Greek; the phrasing is Hebrew.
Tricks of language are a favorite of Christians who attempt to convert Jews and those counter-counter-missionaries who seek to “defend their faith” from Jewish criticism. Herein lies another terrible deception. The Christian in question has attempted to draw upon the meanings of the Jewish letters, kabbalah, and gematria to read his faith into the Torah. And it is not only him. Others attempt to use Pardes to impose their faith upon Torah. (In some, this deception is doubly great, inasmuch as they assert that they adhere to sola scriptura.) One wonders where he and they learned the meanings of letters, etc. They take these from rabbinic teachings, of course. These are the very rabbis whom they decry. This particular Christian just got done writing that one must beware the leaven of the Pharisees. This does not stop him from employing their teachings when it appeals to him.
In effect, the Christian plays dirty. He denies the teachings of the rabbis at every turn. But when it suits his purpose, he pulls them into the argument. How does he know which teachings are good and which bad? Not through analysis. He knows because some suit his faith and some do not.
This is a great deception, because he is disguising his beliefs in Jewish trappings. By wrapping his faith in the mesorah he denies, he makes his faith appear Jewish. But an even greater deception exists, because he does not even properly apply the method he pretends to use. He does not use the methods of exegesis that render the three interpretations of Torah beyond the p’shat. Instead, he uses the existence of hints and secrets as concepts to force upon the text whatever hints and secrets he can. In essence, he pretends to use a system that he denies, because it lends credibility to his claims (he hopes). But he does not actually adhere to the rules of interpretation that yield the hints and secrets he pretends to find.
These things are important to note, because we should be aware at the deceptions being practiced upon us. It is important for him to note it too, because the words he uses to characterize his opponents are unjust and hypocritical. If he prizes truth, let him cease calling his opponents ‘liars’ at every turn. Instead, let him look to his own house. Let his stop his deceptive practices, for his own good and for the good of those he would wish to convert.
The Christian assumes that if one does not devote himself to Jesus that he will go to hell. And so the Christian is doing us the greatest favor in preaching the gospel, even castigating us in the most hateful language. It is only for our own good if he calls us blind liars. What he does not consider is that if he is wrong, he is not peddling medicine for the soul, but poison. His words, meant to lead one to God, actually lead one away from God. But if he will look at his own dishonest practices, there is hope. If he will notice that a doctor does not use the techniques of a snake oil salesman, then he can stop peddling poison. Even better, he can stop drinking it himself. His own soul will improve. And he can devote himself to God rather than a corpse.
Jim
Another standing ovation, Jim. Eliyah Lion should be standing and applauding as well.
Dina,
Thank you, but somehow I doubt Lion will applaud.
Jim
If I could have such eloquence in writing.
I am contemplating if there is a need to “decipher” the words. At one point there was mentioned that “Bar = son”. Therefore, is the reference to DaBar Elokim actually mean “son of god”.
Sharbano,
I had forgotten that. Doing a find on the word “bar” pulled it up right away. He also says that the ד in DaBar is for David. It may be worth an examination. I would look forward to reading your analysis, if you choose to do so.
Jim
I had forgotten about the David part. What isn’t said is that “bar” is Aramaic for son, not Hebrew.
There have been name changes in the past. We know that Avram and Sarai had their names changed to include the “Hey”, which is said to come from Hashem. We have Hoshea ben Nun whose name became Yehoshua. What is quite interesting and something I noticed early on, that is, Saul, who has a Jewish name yet that Jewish name becomes, ‘Paul’, a Roman name. This should bring something interesting to the nature of Xtianity.
Lion,
Will you never cease your misrepresentations? You wrote to Daria that “David also says in Psalm 45 that no one here dare to explain”. This is dishonest. First, Concerned Reader already addressed the Psalm. Just because you did not acknowledge it, does not mean it did not happen. Second, I also agreed to go over the Psalm, but expressed that I am not on your time table. Moreover, I do not think your post regarding Ps. 45 is even 24 hours old. A challenge that is less than a day old is not proof that “no one here dare explain”. Your implication that your opponents are cowardly and incompetent to answer you is a gross misrepresentation. It is particularly hypocritical in one who has been rather thin-skinned to any criticism and has spent much time decrying those who judge tzaddikim.
I will say this as well. Though I have not had time to go over Ps. 45 properly, you have already proven yourself to make use of the scriptures in a manipulative fashion. Your horrible abuse of the commandment to honor one’s parents is particularly distasteful. You cannot expect us, then, to swoon over your every citation, to be taken aback by your clever understanding of the scriptures. You cannot expect us to be cowed by your use of a psalm to establish a point (whatever point that is supposed to be) that is unlikely to relate to the topic of the psalm. Tossing another mis-reading onto your pile of mis-readings is hardly cause for careful attention.
Jim
Lion,
On Daria’s post, which I do not wish to pollute, you wrote:
“All of you converts to Judaism have been seduce to a form of Judaism that is Not of the real Judaism in the time of our forefathers. This notion that the EL is Alone with Himself and does not share His glory with his children is contra-Tanakh. With the few examples that I have provided this should at least, to the honest mind, provoke some study and prayers for the outcome of a wrong path is grave of consequences.”
Any honest look at the Torah reveals just how badly you mangle it to suit your purpose. You consistently ignore that the Torah says exactly what you say is “contra-Tanakh”. You ignore that the Jewish people were appointed as witnesses to the God Who has neither form, nor is accompanied by any other. In Deuteronomy 4, it is openly stated, twice, that there is none beside God. (Your own translation, you do not read, because you write of God “there is no more: by oneself”. This clearly states that God is alone.)
Moreover, your reading other beings into the Torah is so bad that you take passages that do not relate to the topic of God’s nature and manipulate them to make them appear to do so. Perhaps the most egregious, or at least bizarre, example is when you cite the commandment to honor one’s father and mother. All your vain appeals to the DaBar Elokim are so much senselessness, inasmuch as Tanach does not employ the term in the way you do at any time.
The honest mind will note that you have imposed upon the text foreign ideas. What we have is a choice, to listen to you or to God. But this is not really a choice at all is it? We must listen to God. Do not deceive yourself. We do not reject your teaching because we are dishonest readers, have hard hearts, have been blinded, or been led away by pseudo-Christians. We reject your teaching because it is in obvious contradiction to the Torah. Between your teaching and that of Torah the choice is clear. I will take the Word of God over the word of man anyday.
Jim
I should be much more careful.
“On Daria’s post, which I do not wish to pollute, you wrote”
Since I just hit reply on an email I hadn’t noticed WHERE the comment was going. I would rather have not posted it in the other thread.
Lion,
Having reviewed Psalm 45, I can say quite emphatically that I do not know what has got you so excited. You claim that the riddle is by David (though it looks to possibly have been written by the sons of Korach) but I am afraid it looks to me like the riddle is one of your own devising. Any area which is not clear to you is obviously not an area to study but a mystery pointing to Christianity. In truth, however, there is little to be excited about in regard to Christianity.
It appears to me that the psalm was composed for a king’s wedding. The psalm begins by praising the king. He is a handsome man, blessed by God with graceful speech. He is a renowned warrior, but it is not mere prowess that matters, but that he employs his prowess for justice. His throne is firmly established because he rules justly. He has the favor of God.
And then the psalm addresses toward the bride. Obviously, she is joining the king’s house, now, and she should not feel the loss too keenly for the house of her father. She is marrying a great man. Moreover, many people will seek her favor now, because of her association with the king. This marriage is a blessing for her. (My translations tell her to bow to him, not to worship him.)
Regarding vv. 16-17, it does not seem to carry the mystery you would like. The king’s greatness is being lauded. Until now, he has had ancestors of renown. But the psalmist tells him that he will not just have great ancestors, but great descendants as well. This is the sort of blessing you expect to hear at a wedding: May you be blessed with many children, and may they make you proud.”
Do not allow yourself to be carried on by your fancy. You ask who the woman is, but you cannot do much more than speculate. Worse, you can read into the psalm the message you would like to be there, rather than the intended meaning. The qualities of the woman are not outlined in the psalm. This is not an invitation for you to attribute qualities to her.
Jim
Jim your a reducer of the power of Holy Scriptures like all demons that want to diminish and annihilate our Alliance with YHWH. Jealousy is their motto that by which sin entered our race. Of which race are you Monsieur le réducteur?
Psalm 45 is very clear for those who have ears to hear. I thought you were a little bite witty but your intelligence is centered on your own ego not striving to please YHWH. Reform your mind for no vain man will enter Shama’im.
P.S.(reference Genesis 24v.26): the right translation of bowed is קָדַד . The right word for worship is שָׁחָה also it can mean bow down completely which is surely a sign of worship. For I will never bowed down to any man… may be you find it ok but not me. Jim you are spinning the sacred text again to fit your false view!!
Face the reality be courageous you obviously do not pray with Tehilim. For the Psalms crush each time your false doctrine. Your attempt to rewrite and reinterpret the obvious is a clear sign that the holy text was bothering you and going against your false theology… Wake up you in a bad dream and your intelligence is making a spaghetti of your lies and deceits. Let go Babylon and listen to the purity of Yerushala’im…
Psalm 45 verses 10-11;16-17
”…
Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
…
Instead of your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
I will make your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise you forever and ever.”
Who is the ”I” who will make her name to praise forever and ever??
Lion. Again, why are you obsessed with insults. Jim is a demon? Come on man. Grow up.
Eliyahu The lie that you put in this post is too blatant – even for a false prophet. Genesis 23:7 has “shacha” as an expression of honor to simple men. Eliyahu – show us that you are a man and admit your mistake.
It really annoys me that this guy’s screen name is the same as my son’s (Eliyahu). I wish he would change his screen name. I can think of a few good suggestions…
Yisroel obviously you know what is a lie. You do not need a definition. As someone who claims to be a rabbi you should read better and respect your fellow Yehudim. Where do I say Jim is a demon?? Who is the liar here!
I said: ”Jim your a reducer of the power of Holy Scriptures like all demons that want to diminish and annihilate our Alliance with YHWH. Jealousy is their motto that by which sin entered our race. Of which race are you Monsieur le réducteur?”
To be like someone IS NOT to be someone. Is it too difficult to grasp or like always you keep diverting from the truth and the substance that I brought which is:
Psalm 45 is very clear for those who have ears to hear. I thought you were a little bite witty but your intelligence is centered on your own ego not striving to please YHWH. Reform your mind for no vain man will enter Shama’im.
P.S.(reference Genesis 24v.26): the right translation of bowed is קָדַד . The right word for worship is שָׁחָה also it can mean bow down completely which is surely a sign of worship. For I will never bowed down to any man… may be you find it ok but not me. Jim you are spinning the sacred text again to fit your false view!!
Face the reality be courageous you obviously do not pray with Tehilim. For the Psalms crush each time your false doctrine. Your attempt to rewrite and reinterpret the obvious is a clear sign that the holy text was bothering you and going against your false theology… Wake up you in a bad dream and your intelligence is making a spaghetti of your lies and deceits. Let go Babylon and listen to the purity of Yerushala’im…
Psalm 45 verses 10-11;16-17
”…
Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
…
Instead of your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
I will make your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise you forever and ever.”
Who is the ”I” who will make her name to praise forever and ever??
It seems that all you false teachers do not stand before Holy Scriptures for it destroys your man made false Judaism. Blind men!!
Eliyahu You wrote – “The right word for worship is שָׁחָה also it can mean bow down completely which is surely a sign of worship.” – This is a lie – admit your mistake – or the mistake of the “ruach” that you claim is leading you.
Just a note on English. When you say, “”Jim your a reducer of the power of Holy Scriptures like all demons ” the use of “like all” makes the sentence inclusive. Therefore by inclusion you are, in effect, applying Jim in the context of “all demons”. If you wanted to segregate Jim you should have said “like The demons”.
Thank you Sharbano for the correction I will take note!
P.S.: I appreciate you last posts that give substance to the debate. Shalom!
Yisroel if I said something inaccurate show it to me. That you say that something is untrue does not make it to be untrue because you say so… you have to prove your claim!!
A real rabbi is moved by the Dabar Elohim and as the strength of the Ruah holy to confront powerfully those who being led astray. It is not because your sect of Judaism has taken control of religion that makes it valid. It will become valid when you will recognize the One true Messiah of Israel.
You are not use to man standing their ground against those wanting to dominate the holy People. I am used to confront them either in Yehudah or either in churches. I will not bow before any man: popes or president, rabbis or bishops… I am not impressed by title but by the Loving Truth who came to give the keys to Shama’im.
P.S.: Psalm 45 must be very painful for you to bear for each time I bring it on the carpet you divert the subject to my person… Have courage confront your contradictions!!
Eliyahu I proved to you that you lied – You wrote that “shacha” is “surely” a “sign of worship” – Genesis 23:7 proves you wrong. Will you admit? About Psalm 45 being “very painful” to me – Do you think that your interpretation of the Psalm is so “clear” that I should answer? I believe that any reader reading your “explanation” and Jim’s side by side will know who is on the side of truth and who is not. In any case – admit your mistake – As someone who is responsible for this blog – there is only so much entertainment that I can allow.
Yisroel taking the example of Abraham bowing down to the people of the land, show how poor you know our History. Abraham was from a pagan-idol worshipping family, ready to sacrifice his own son, bowing down to men… But Elohim in his patience taught him to get out of those practices. Elohim knew where he was coming from. You seem to have forgot.
Psalm 45 context is way way after Abraham and after Mosheh clear instructions. We should not bow down to any man. The word שָׁחָה means what it means. He does not suit your reading but nevertheless you did not dare to comment Psalm 45 for it goes against your misconceptions.
Now if you want to cut me out feel free. That is your liberty. Debates if you hold the truth will only reinforce you and sharpen your skill… but if you are lazy to do the battle it is of no use. Admit you are defeated not being able to counter claim with proof of Scriptures… For my part I would have witness to the truth. Enemy of the truth always want to make quiet those who speaks loudly, they are disturbed and pained by the fire!!
Now before you cut I will respond to Ezechiel 40 and beyond in response to Dina:
The sacrifice system to be restored concerns the Second Temple. Having been destroyed the New Temple is the Messianic Body of Yahushuo the Messiah the Dabar Elohim in the Flesh always coming and building His Temple-Church with living stones. Your sacrificial system is gone forever it is finish don’t you understand. When o you carnal minds will you transform your minds to spiritual mind, open your heart to the Master-Teacher only Him is the Way the Truth the Life for He is Elohim made man to elevate man to be elohim in the Elohim as written in our Sacred Scriptures and foretold of old.
Now concerning Stephen and Sichem in acts 7 in response to Sharbano:
The Tanakh is right and Acts is right. Stephen saying that Yaakov was buried there is true for Yaakov son Yosef was buried there. His seed indeed is buried there. Therefore the Ruah wanted to convey a special meaning to word proclaim by Stephen. Also could it be that Yaakov remains would have been transferred with those of his son Yosef later on… It might be. Nevertheless Yosef buried in Sichem is a testimony that Yaakov extension is surely there in the remains of his son Yosef.
There we are it was a pleasure to debate with you brothers and sisters. You have permitted me to bring you a testimony. Your sect of Judaism has put shades on your heart but the day that the shades will be pull out you will see the Sun of Justice shining upon you. I hope that you will then now how awesome Eloheinu is really…
Love you all and I pray for you all forgiving whatever sins you made against me and asking forgiveness if I was rude and fiery but I am what Elohim made me…
Shalom!
P.S.: Yisroel love your brothers Yehudim do not judge them and respect their conscience. Torah must be preached but Messiah must be recognized also. Unity is always better than division. We are near the day. Be hopeful and never let pride take your soul. Be aware and keep your heart pure!!
Eliyahu And how do you explain Exodus 18:7; 1Samuel 20:40; 24:8; Isaiah 45:14; 49:23; 60:14? Do you still stick to your assertion that “shacha” surely refers to worship? Or will you admit your mistake?
Are you really suggesting this:
[Abraham was from a pagan-idol worshipping family, ready to sacrifice his own son, bowing down to men…]
If this was his nature (Molech) why did G-d have to instruct him. Another thing, bowing is Not worship. When a person bows to another he is giving honor to that person and saying ‘this person is of higher stature than I’. By lowering his stature he is raising the other. Now, it does say in Avodah Zarah that a person is Not to even bend down to pick up a coin if he is in front of a statue or a place of idol worship (as a church). This would be giving honor to that idolatry.
Apparently you haven’t read Ezekiel 40-48. Few Xtians have. If it were the Second Temple they why these references.
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7) And He said to me, Son of man, [this is] the place of My throne and [this is] the place of the soles of My feet where I shall dwell in the midst of the Children of Israel forever, and the House of Israel will no longer defile My Holy Name, they and their kings with their harlotry, and with the corpses of their kings in their high places.
2) And the Lord said to me; This gate shall be closed, it shall not be opened, and no man shall come through it, for the Lord God of Israel comes through it, and it shall be closed.
15) But the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept the charge of My sanctuary when the Children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near Me to minister to Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer Me fat and blood, says the Lord God.
6) And he said to me, “Have you seen, Son of man?” And he led me and brought me back upon the bank of the stream.
7) When I returned, and behold, upon the bank of the stream was a very great profusion of trees on either side.
8) And he said to me, “This water is going out to the eastern frontier, and will descend upon the plain, and come to the sea, to the sea that is brought out, and the waters will be healed.
9) And every living creature that will swarm wherever the two streams will go, will live, and the fish will be very abundant, for these waters have come there, and wherever the stream flows, they shall be healed and live.
10) And it will be [a place] beside which fishermen will stand, from Ein-gedi to Ein-eglaim; a place for spreading nets they will be; their fish will be of many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea, very many.
11) Its marshes and its pools will not be healed; they will be set aside for salt [mines].
12) But by the stream, on its bank from either side, will grow every tree for food; its leaf will not wither, neither will its fruit end; month after month its fruits will ripen, for its waters will emanate from the Sanctuary, and its fruit shall be for food and its leaves for a cure.
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MOST certainly the tribes have yet to be reunited in the land according to their apportionment.
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13) So said the Lord God: This is the border whereby you shall divide the land for inheritance to the twelve tribes of Israel, Joseph [taking two] portions.
Well, you can read 48 and see that the 12 Tribes are given their portions. It IS interesting that here in Ezekiel there is mentioned the tribe of Dan. Even though Revelation isn’t referring to Ezekiel it Does Exclude the tribe of Dan.
Now, concerning Stephen; you have given another distortion. The details given by Stephen are inaccurate .
One last point. You have invoked the name of Hashem in much of what you have written. In so doing you are assigning your version of truth as if it were Hashem saying it. This is standing on very dangerous ground. If you want to invoke the name of Hashem into your words then EVERYTHING you state must be the complete truth. If there is but merely One point in error you have made Hashem in error. Heed the words of Jeremiah.
14) And the Lord said to me; The prophets are prophesying lies in My name; I did not send them neither did I command them, nor did I speak to them. A false vision, divination, a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart they prophesy to you.
25) I heard what the prophets said, those who prophesy in My name falsely, saying, “I have dreamed, I have dreamed.”
32) Behold I am against those who prophesy with false dreams, says the Lord, and they tell them and mislead My people with their falsehoods and with their bewilderment, but I neither sent them nor commanded them, and they have not availed this people, says the Lord.
Yisroel I maintain my position. This honor is a form of worship that is forbidden. For I can counter your claim with other passage of Tanakh and Torah:
Exodus 20:5
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exodus 23:24
You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
Leviticus 26:1
[ Promise of Blessing and Retribution ] ‘You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God.
Judges 2:12
and they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt; and they followed other gods from among the gods of the people who were all around them, and they bowed down to them; and they provoked the Lord to anger.
Judges 2:17
Yet they would not listen to their judges, but they played the harlot with other gods, and bowed down to them. They turned quickly from the way in which their fathers walked, in obeying the commandments of the Lord; they did not do so.
Judges 2:19
And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly than their fathers, by following other gods, to serve them and bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way.
Yisroel you accuse me of lie and it is you who lied so blatantly. I am not a sheep nor your sheep. I will never submit to any men nor bow down to anyone. That is strict Torah observance. You teach the contrary.
Messihim bow down only to Elohei Israel YHWH
We are forbidden to bow down to anyone for it is written in Revelation 22:
”8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
Eliyahu I never expected you to bend before men – I expected you to bend before the truth and this you have failed to do. I demonstrated to you clearly that the word “shacha” can mean an expression of respect that is not worship of the divine – refuting your claim that insists that it can mean nothing else but worship of the divine. Instead of admitting your mistake – you show me that there are verses in which this word (“shacha”) can mean worship of the divine. You surely realize that I never said that the word cannot mean worship of the divine – what I did say and what Tanach says is that the word can refer to both worship of the divine and an expression of respect towards mere humans. If you demonstrate so clearly that you have no respect for the truth – why do you think that anyone should take your arguments seriously?
HI Eliyah Lion
Believe it or not I agree with Yisroel on this one!
I can see by reading your comment regarding the attempted proskuneo by John to the angel in Revelation that you have a faulty understanding (as is commonly the case among Christians; note I am a Christian too and once believed as you do regarding the mistranslation) of the English term “worship” as translated from the Hebrew shachah and the Greek proskuneo.
I’ve cut and pasted parts of a much longer article on worship from Truth or Tradition
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-is-true-biblical-worship
If you want to read the entire article you can go the above link but the below sections explains it well enough for now I think.
“There are times when it is not appropriate to honor or “worship” someone. God says that it is wrong to bow down before (shachah; worship) other gods (Exod. 23:24). That makes perfect sense. How could a person with any sincerity honor both God and demons? A different case involved Peter, who recognized that it was not appropriate for Cornelius to bow down to (proskuneo; worship) him, even though Cornelius respected Peter. Peter felt he was not superior to Cornelius, and accepting the worship would have sent the wrong message to Cornelius, so he stopped him (Acts 10:25 and 26). Similarly, the angel stopped John from “worshipping” him. John felt the angel was superior and started to “worship” him. The angel had to correct him and remind him that the angel was only a “fellow servant” (Rev. 22:8 and 9).”
“…
The Hebrew word shachah and the Greek word proskuneo account for more than 80% of the appearances of the word “worship” in most English versions of the Bible, so these are the two words with which we want to concern ourselves. There are a few other words that are occasionally translated “worship” but have a more specific meaning outside of the idea of worship, and really should be translated differently. An example would be the Greek word latreuo, which means “to serve,” but in a few cases is translated “to worship.”
A study of the Hebrew word shachah and the Greek word proskuneo reveals that both these words mean “to bow down.” The Hebrew word shachah (Strong’s number 7812) is used of bowing or prostrating oneself, often before a superior or before God. In the King James Version, it is translated by a number of different English words, including: “worship” (99 times), “bow” (31 times), “bow down” (18 times), “obeisance” (9 times), and “reverence” (5 times).
The Greek word proskuneo (Strong’s number 4505) comes from the Greek words pros, “to” or “toward,” and kuneo, “to kiss.” It literally means to kiss the hand to (toward) someone in token of reverence, and among the Orientals, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence. Hence, in the New Testament it means kneeling or prostration to do homage or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.
The examples of “worship” in the Bible confirms that in the biblical culture, people bowed down before those to whom they wanted to show respect or honor. Lot “worshipped” (shachah) the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He prostrated himself before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1). Moses “worshipped” (shachah) his father in law, whom he respected and honored (Exod. 18:7). Abigail “worshipped” (shachah) David. She honored him by prostrating herself before him. These three examples can be multiplied many times over, but they show that when someone wanted to honor another, he would fall down before him. The act of falling down is called “worship,” and reveals the heart of the worshipper—respect and honor towards the one being worshipped. …”
…
“…When the words shachah appears in the Hebrew text, or proskuneo in the Greek text, they usually refer to the action of bowing down, and we can translate them that way into English, as the following examples show.
Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down [shachah] before the people of the land, the Hittites.
Genesis 33:3
He himself [Jacob] went on ahead and bowed down [shachah] to the ground seven times as he approached his brother [Esau].
Genesis 42:6
Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down [shachah] to him with their faces to the ground.
Matthew 18:26
“The servant fell on his knees [proskuneo] before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’
It is clear from the verses above that people “bowed down to,” or “worshipped” other people. A study of the Greek and Hebrew words and how they are translated shows something else—something that has misled many Christians. In many Bible versions, when the words shachah or proskuneo are used of one person to another, the translators use the English words “bow down” or something similar. However, when shachah or proskuneo refers to a person “bowing down” before God or Jesus, the translators almost always use the English word “worship.” The three examples below are typical.
Exodus 24:1
Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. You are to worship [shachah] at a distance,
Exodus 33:10 (NASB)
When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship [shachah], each at the entrance of his tent.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship [proskuneo] in spirit and in truth.”
The verses above reveal a pattern that has caused many Christians to misunderstand “worship.” When the Hebrew or Greek words for worship refer to men “worshipping” men, the translators use the English words “bow down.” However, when the act of worship is toward God or Jesus, then the translators use the English word “worship” in their Bibles. This way of translating understandably leads the English reader to believe that only God and Jesus are “worshipped.” How can a person reading the English Bible be expected to know that biblical “worship” is not just for God and Jesus when in his Bible the word “worship” is only used in reference to them? He cannot. Thus, although it is sad, it is understandable that people reading the English Bible conclude that Jesus must be God because Jesus is “worshipped.”
As Bible students, we must get the facts straight. “Worshipping,” i.e., bowing down to someone, shows honor and respect. It can be toward anyone the person wants to honor, even, as we saw earlier in the case of Lot, a total stranger. People “worshipping” Jesus does not make him God any more than Abraham “bowing down” before the Hittites makes them God. The Greek and Hebrew need to be translated consistently. When they are, we can see that people “worshipped” other people and God (or they “bowed down to” other people and God). In practical application, superiors, kings, God, and Jesus get most of the honor or worship.
There are times when it is not appropriate to honor or “worship” someone. God says that it is wrong to bow down before (shachah; worship) other gods (Exod. 23:24). That makes perfect sense. How could a person with any sincerity honor both God and demons? A different case involved Peter, who recognized that it was not appropriate for Cornelius to bow down to (proskuneo; worship) him, even though Cornelius respected Peter. Peter felt he was not superior to Cornelius, and accepting the worship would have sent the wrong message to Cornelius, so he stopped him (Acts 10:25 and 26). Similarly, the angel stopped John from “worshipping” him. John felt the angel was superior and started to “worship” him. The angel had to correct him and remind him that the angel was only a “fellow servant” (Rev. 22:8 and 9).
In the following verse we find an account of the prophet Nathan coming in to see King David.
1 Kings 1:23
And they told the king, “Nathan the prophet is here.” So he went before the king and bowed [shachah] with his face to the ground.
Nathan was a prophet of God and yet he had no problem with “worshipping” King David, i.e., bowing down before him. It is perfectly appropriate to bow down to (worship) a king. However, it would have been improper for Nathan to bow down to David and then to someone in David’s court that he knew was plotting against David. “Worship” is not a hollow act. True worship comes from the heart. That is why Mordecai would not bow down before Haman, because Haman was an enemy of the Jews (Esther 3:2; 9:10). However when Jesus met the women who had come to his tomb, they “worshipped” him and were correct in doing so because he was their king, and they honored and respected him.”
…
David Thank you for this contribution – it is really educational. I am presently working on a response to your response on the subject of intentional vs. unintentional idolatry – I appreciate your contribution to that discussion as well. Thank you Yisroel
Peace to you David!
I am from the school of Peter and Yohan. I do not bow down to any man. Popes or bishops, kings or president whatever. I bow down only to EL-Elyon YHWH.
From your article it said:
“Peter felt he was not superior to Cornelius, and accepting the worship would have sent the wrong message to Cornelius, so he stopped him (Acts 10:25 and 26). Similarly, the angel stopped John from “worshipping” him. John felt the angel was superior and started to “worship” him. The angel had to correct him and remind him that the angel was only a “fellow servant” (Rev. 22:8 and 9)”
My obedience here is strict. More strict than most churches and synagogues.
Worship of man like Abraham, Mosheh, Abigail, and other instances are cultural and although comprehensible are not pure obedience to the Commandment.
Eliyahu
Not only do you lie – but you contradict yourself. When you originally stated that “shacha” means worship – you were using this false argument to justify your Scriptural interpretation. Now you are admitting that in Scripture the word “shacha” is used for an expression of respect to humans – but you still insist you are right.
You demonstrate how far self-delusion can go – this is something that is very important to remember when reading the Christian Scriptures
Hi Eliyah Lion,
You wrote:
“Worship of man like Abraham, Mosheh, Abigail, and other instances are cultural and although comprehensible are not pure obedience to the Commandment.”
My response:
It’s a good thing you’re not Japanese Christian in the custom of bowing to all as a sign of respect (especially you’re boss at work for example) or you’d be in for quite a culture shock.
But all kidding aside, remember that “worship” is the poor (not to put it too harshly) English translation of the Hebrew and the Greek which means to “bow down.”
Secondly, which “commandment” are you referring to?
Lion,
It is amazing how in one post, I am an intelligent being, blessed by God with a gift for teaching, and in another I am akin to demons. If you could be so wrong about me, one way or another, perhaps you are also wrong to judge the righteousness of Jesus, a man you never met nor had even the limited correspondence that you and I have shared.
I am sorry you think that I was spinning the word “worship”. My Hebrew is limited. I only told you what my translations said. R’ Blumenthal has done a better job explaining the word. Thank you, R’ Blumenthal.
You have not answered my comment, generally speaking. You have insisted that I am false, but you have not shown how your interpretation, which is still unclear to me, is the correct one. You merely insist it and denounce any who do not agree with you. Surely you cannot expect to convince through insistence.
I note that you have not answered my comment on your explanation of Elokim in Genesis 1.1. You may have missed it, as you have been quite busy arguing with Con on that topic. Here is a link: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/a-light-to-the-nations/#comment-19296 .
You must know how important it is for you to tackle this topic, because it goes to your credibility. Unless I am mistaken, you have shown us that you are the one indeed manipulating the scriptures to suit your theology. Your argument there ignores the facts, including the verb “bara” connected to the word “Elokim”.
Jim
P.S. May I recommend you read the comment on this page called “On Deception”. A “find” will turn it up readily, I am sure. Also, I do not see a response to my comments on Isaiah 7.14 from you, another instance where I demonstrate how you misrepresent scripture. Note the difference between demonstration and demonization.
A quick note on apology
When one wishes to apologize, it is important that he owns up to what he did. He must not place the fault in the one who received the insult or injury. For example, if I were to call Dina a know-it-all, it would be incumbent upon me, if I wished to make things right with her, to apologize specifically for calling her a know-it-all. I must not shift the blame by saying, “I am sorry if you were offended.” That means that I do not care about what I did wrong, only about her reception of my comment.
One must also not make justification for his bad behavior. It makes things no less hurtful if one says that he just got carried away in his zeal. This really is a way of abdicating responsibility.
And one must also make every attempt to avoid repeating the behavior. If one returns straightaway to performing the same offending actions, the apology is meaningless. Then it is obvious that he said something only by obligation and not with sincerity. To seek forgiveness from someone while continuing the offending behavior is like entering a mikvah with a dead lizard in one’s hand.
Forgive me for being off topic. These things just come to mind for some reason.
Jim
Lion,
It occurred to me how troubling an act of cowardice is for you. Many times you have been concerned on our behalf that we would “not dare” answer some point of yours. To help you avoid appearing the coward as we do (and what Lion could be called a coward) I am putting my comments on Genesis 1.1 here for you that you may have ease of access. I would not wish you to appear to be a coward when in reality you just had not seen the comment. For you:
Lion,
What saddens me for your sake is how easily your misinterpretations are exposed. Even a baby like myself can show how badly you understand Torah. You claim to be an expert in the language of Torah, but you clearly know so little that you cannot even snow a neophyte like myself.
Let us consider your arguments regarding the plural nature of Elokim in Genesis 1.1. We will discover that they are in fact based on total nonsense. Some messianic teacher has led you astray, either manipulating the facts to suit his fancy or through sheer ignorance.
You write that the Elokim in the first verse of the Torah lacks a ה, and is therefore a plural. But even I know that a ה does not indicate singularity. It only indicates a particular or multiple particulars, a known instance. For example, in Genesis 1.16, the luminaries are המארת (hamaorot). These are in the plural and have the ה, which is roughly equivalent to “the” in English. But according to you the ה does not accompany plurals, only singulars.
Ah, but you write that this is the case with Elokim. Perhaps you mean to say that this rule only applies to the word Elokim. Let us look, then, to Exodus 7.1. When God tells Moses that he has made him an Elokim to Pharaoh, there is no ה attached to the word Elokim. But we know that he is talking only to Moses, for the preceding word indicates God is talking to a male, singular you, not a male, plural you (as would be the case if He were talking to Moses and Aaron). So, we see that Elokim does not require a ה to be singular.
Moreover, you should have considered the verb ברא (bara) when determining if Elokim was a plural or a singular word. The verb is in the singular masculine, meaning that Elokim is not plural.
If one who has a very limited knowledge of Hebrew can look up these facts, then you, blessed as you are with a whispering wind, ought to have had no problem. There is no excuse for you accepting these mistakes from your teachers. If they are of your own invention, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Regarding the silliness of the alphabet soup you like to play with the words of the Torah, you cannot expect us to take seriously the claims of one who cannot understand the p’shat when he tries to go deeper. Moreover, as I have pointed out elsewhere, since you deny the mesorah, it is dishonest and hypocritical for you to attempt to turn it to your own purposes.
Jim
Jim let me put it clearly. I do not work solely here to respond to everything that goes through. I have constraint of time. I am working in many places. Plus I am here alone against at least You, Con, Sharbano, Dina and Yisroel.
Try playing basketball 1 against five. If the debate is hanging on lies not on my person but on the power of the Dabar Elohim.
I did not forget also valuable topics of contention:
Ezechiel 40 and up from Dina which I will address
Stephen Sichem claim in acts 7 from Sharbano which I will address
Your claim about Elohim not being a plural of unity … is pretty easy to settle when we look at Genesis 1 v.26 but you failed to notice playing the ostrich here. That the verbs that follow Elohim (not Elokim) are in the singular not plural reinforce the Oneness but do not negates the Plurality. For verbs confers action which Elohim does as One but in deliberation the Communality is emphasized like in Genesis 1 v.26.
The use in of “the” Elohim (HaElohim) reinforce the designation of YHWH the Supreme One always in Communion; but when EL is employed it refers to Him with certain attributes that is particular to YHWH
In the case of Mosheh that became an elohim to Pharaoh implies that He has become divine(elohim) by the Elohim Grace for no man can be elohim if the Elohim does not make him to be. Mosheh is elohim for he became for a purpose a manifestation of EL-Elyon in union with His Dabar and with the Ruah Hakodesh.
This topic can not be extinguish in a post you will I hope see the complexity for us to treat about the Supreme One with our limited language…But the Revelation is in the Tanakh no innovation here, but just the unsealing of the power of the Dabar Elohim for our time.
Shalom! ..
Lion,
I am glad that you note the need to grant understanding to those who have not yet answered our comments. If you have paid attention, you will note that the reason I put the challenge this way is because you have implied cowardice in us. You wrote to Daria that no one dared answer your challenge on Psalm 45, though it had been up only a few hours. Therefore, knowing that other things keep you from posting all the answers immediately, you should recognize that we are in the same position. We, too, have other things that demand our attention. Now that you have acknowledged the need for patience and charity, I hope to see that you will no longer impute cowardice to those who have not answered you in the time frame you would like.
I will look to the rest of your comment later. For now, I must feed my daughters.
Jim
It would be less difficult to be forthcoming with more answers if it weren’t for the fact there is no need for lengthy repetitions.
Indeed.
You are getting close to HaEmet.
“it refers to Him with certain attributes ”
Clearly there are attributes that apply to Hashem. But attributes do Not entertain the thought of being entities. Since you are considering “attributes” as gods then there are more than you have listed. There is NO difference here than what the ancients viewed “as gods”. THIS is what Avraham “realized”, through “intellect” and not emotional feelings, that it contrary to Supremacy.. By assigning divinity to one “attribute”, the physical, you are assigning Supremacy to one over the other. You cannot deny this because the “one- the dabar” is one who ceased to exist. The one thing that you have been overlooking is that ALL mankind has a spirit of G-d within.
Lion,
I see that actually I need make no further comment. (Do not worry that will stop me. Some have noted my prolixity in the past.) In truth, you have not really responded to my arguments at all but recapitulated that which has already been refuted.
You attempted to show from the Hebrew that Elokim means a plurality when not employed with the definite article ‘heh’ attached. Your argument was grammatical in nature, and I have shown that your grammatical argument is unsound. The ‘heh’ does not imply singularity in the term ‘Elokim’.
Now, instead of proving your grammatical point, you shift topics. You return to that which has already been discussed. You insist that Genesis 1.26 is means that God is a plurality. Not only has this already been shown to be incorrect, but it has nothing to do with your grammatical argument. And your incomprehensible bibble bable regarding Mosheh also sidesteps the grammatical point. In truth, your defense of your argument is an implicit admission that I am correct. If I were not, you would not exchange your arguments so readily.
Let us consider the claim that I bury my head in the sand. To this day, you have steadfastly turned your head away from Devarim 4, which tells us not only that there is none beside God but that this is the testimony that He has given the Jewish people to take to the world. (You are currently failing in your mission.) Instead, you focus on hints and shadows, each an opportunity to deny the truths stated outright. This is the definition of burying one’s head. You ignore clear statements and seize upon the obscure. I will reiterate what I have said before: You do not consider what the Torah says, but what you can make it to say.
Jim
He is basing his interpretation on the use of “im” as denoting a plural. There are other words that also have “im”. Mayim for example. The only ones I have seen use this argument of Hebrew are those who don’t really understand the language. Those people have relied on Strong’s for their dogma.
His grasp of the Hebrew is obviously weak, as evidenced by his repeated use of the phrase “dabarim Elokim” (as opposed to divrei Elokim) and the use of “Elo-ah” as a stand-alone noun, when really it must be used with an object (such as “Elo-ah Yaakov,” which means “the God of Jacob”).
Dina and Sharbano your knowledge of Hebrew is not credible. You are projecting to others your ignorance. Concerning Strongs it could may be useful to ye.
Do you know the difference in Hebrew of the singular the plural and dual form?? The mem at the end confers a notion of quantity, abundance… yod mem gives the plural form in Hebrew. The dual is generally for with yod yod mem… it confers the notion of pair (both)…
Now concerning Eloah, Dina you are confounding with Elohei: Elohei Yaakov which in English will give God of Yaakov which I never use for the English denature the beauty of the Hebrew… We say also: Elohei Shalom, Elohei Justice… Elohei Abraham
Eloah is the feminine form of Elohim. Eloah refers to the Ruah Elohim. Here is an example:
Deuteronomy 32:17
יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַ אֱלֹהִים לֹא יְדָעוּם חֲדָשִׁים מִקָּרֹב
They sacrificed to demons not Eloah Elohim not whom they knew of the ages near…
Conclusion saying what ever you want does not make it true. You need to provide proof of Holy Scriptures. The one who should instruct you might not be doing a good job or you are too lazy to check your misunderstandings and resolve your misconceptions. That demands hard work. You are accumulating false witness claim one after the other by denigrating what I say without even checking in the Tanakh your errors… You do not care about the Torah but your own self righteousness
Are you SERIOUS about that translation. Are you suggesting it says: they sacrificed to demons, and NOT to THE G-d.
This is one of the worst examples I’ve seen. Once again, this really looks like you are taking the words from a dictionary and putting sentences together, as someone who is in the beginning stages of learning Hebrew.
I prefer not to talk to haters, but I’m finding it hard to keep quiet. So I’ll have you know that I am fluent in Hebrew not only because I studied the language for twelve years but also because I spent some of the formative years of my childhood in Israel. That is why I can say with confidence that your grasp of Hebrew is weak.
Psalm 114:7 shows the use of “Elo-ah” as I explained it. Can you find me other places where “Elo-ah” is used, with feminine verbs to show that there is a woman in the godhead? For example, something like “Vatomer Elo-ah”?
“Conclusion saying what ever you want does not make it true. You need to provide proof of Holy Scriptures.” Indeed!
I do dislike talking to nasty people, however, so I hope Lion can manage to keep a civil tongue in his head when he responds.
There is a blog, Mystical Paths, of Reb Gutman Locks that has spent much time warning Jewish brethren of the idolatry of Yoga. There are many Jews who have tried to remove the pagan spirituality from this practice in an attempt to make it Kosher. Apparently Reb Gutman had previously engaged in this practice and is somewhat an expert on the matter. He has been exemplary in detailing how it is impossible to use Yoga and remove the idolatrous parts.
There are many similarities between that practice and the belief in what I would call a schizophrenic god. The people here consider the following of that religion, certainly a change in belief, to be idolatrous in nature and have the Emunah that will not change. Just as Yoga should be forbidden so should a change in the order of the Universe.
Sharbano,
Thank you for the information regarding Mystical Paths. I am going to be doing some reading tonight, for sure.
Jim
A lot of Orthodox Jews are into yoga. It’s even taught as part of the physical education program at my daughters’ high school. I’m sure there are different rabbinic opinions on the matter, but it’s certainly worth looking into.
Considering he is intimately familiar with Yoga he has an interesting perspective. When I was younger I was involved in martial arts. There are similarities with eastern paganism in it also. There is a form of spirituality in all these. It is more evident in styles I learned, such as Sil-Lum Kung Fu and there’s also the I Ching.
If a person is wanting to engage in exercise or self-defense there are the Abir Warrior arts and Krav Maga, which is a very deadly form of arts. One interesting note is when reading the Midrash and some of the fighting scenes they sound very much like using martial arts. That led me to believe that maybe it was the ancient Hebrews who invented martial arts and this was part of the “gifts” that Avraham gave. In any event it seems the issue has to do with much of the meditations.
Lion does not sound like he is being totally honest in claiming that he knows Hebrew. I myself do not know Hebrew, but comparative religions required me to know some basics in Hebrew and Greek, (in order to read a lot of the research literature.) (I only got to take modern Hebrew for about a week, then had to transfer to take a required class.)
Every usage that any Christian can bring to bolster their theology (when taken in native context in Tanakh,) clearly refers to righteous people generally, not anyone special, and certainly not an incarnate logos.
For example, though Moses and the Judges are called Elohim, nobody worships them as divine beings. I showed lion this, he did not respond.
This is plain to anyone. The kind of reading lion is doing is characteristic of “Hebrew roots” readings. The odd thing, is that lion also appears to have some orthodox Christian knowledge and doctrine which is not Torah based, but philosophically based.
Its very interesting that Jesus’ own rebuttal to the blasphemy charge used the reasoning ( of the judges as elohim) to say I AM NOT GUILTY OF BLASPHEMY. How does lion miss that Jesus is saying, in effect, “all of the wise are called Elohim,” I have a sneaking suspicion that Jesus himself in fact knew the Ein Od notion, and that’s why he always says things like I and Y’all in his sayings about his connection with G-d a lot.
Lion,
“I am what Elokim made me” is not an apology. In fact, it is to blame God for your behavior. I would much rather you tell me that I am akin to a demon, attempting to gratify my own ego, or any other insult you might wish to hurl at me than to see you besmirch the name of God. Please do not attempt to divest yourself of responsibility for the things you’ve written by shifting it to God.
Jim
Your sacrificial system is gone forever it is finish don’t you understand. When o you carnal minds will you transform your minds to spiritual mind, open your heart to the Master-Teacher only Him is the Way the Truth the Life for He is Elohim made man to elevate man to be elohim in the Elohim as written in our Sacred Scriptures and foretold of old.
This is classic Christian anti Judaism lion and replacement theology, it shows your true motives. No way would a Jew who is faithful in observance would believe these teachings. You need to apologize, The father himself gave these “carnal laws” as you call them, and commanded Israel to observe them in all their generations as a lasting sign in Exodus 31:13, speaking of sabbath, THAT IS FACT. ANOTHER FACT IS THAT YOUR RELIGION CHANGED THE TIMES AND LAW OF SHABBAT AND SHOULD BE IGNORED ACCORDING TO DANIEL 7:25 FOR THAT SAME REASON.
The Bible clearly teaches in Malachi 3:3 that the Jews will be regathered to Israel and that the levites, being purified, will bring pure sacrifices that are pleasing to G-d. The next chapter in Malachi 4:4 says CLEARLY AS CRYSTAL to “remember the Torah of my servant Moses.” Tanakh contradicts in every way your notion that “the sacrificial system is gone forever.”
YOU ARE IN ERROR. You are resorting to calling the Torah carnal, just like Paul did because you cannot actually reconcile your beliefs with what the text plainly says to anyone of any age who can just read it. Christians call a law that hashem delivered carnal, nonspiritual, etc. Jesus’ Jewish followers (the Ebionites) did not accept Paul’s teaching that you present here and they died as heretics under the orhodox for that reason.
CHRISTIANS KILLED TORAH OBSERVANT JESUS FOLLOWERS BECAUSE THEY FOLLOWED THE MOST LITERAL SENSE OF THE LAW.
YOU ARE INSISTING THAT JEWS READ TORAH COMMANDS METAPHORICALLY “SPIRITUALLY” TO AVOID THE CLEAR IMPLICATIONS OF THE TEXT”S LITERAL DIRECTIVES. WHY WOULD G-D COMMAND THESE AT ALL IF HE WERE JUST GOING TO THROW THEM OUT LATER?
It will become valid when you will recognize the One true Messiah of Israel.
Moshiach is bound by the Torah, he is a servant of Torah, the Torah existed before the kings in Israel. It is the messiah who must submit to the Torah, not the Torah that must submit to the messiah. You are reading your understanding into Torah, Jews are just showing contextual reading of the text.
In the case of Mosheh that became an elohim to Pharaoh implies that He has become divine(elohim) by the Elohim Grace for no man can be elohim if the Elohim does not make him to be. Mosheh is elohim for he became for a purpose a manifestation of EL-Elyon in union with His Dabar and with the Ruah Hakodesh.
Lion, If Moses was made divine by Hashem then why doesn’t anyone in history worship him as such as the dabar of Hahshem? Why does nobody address their prayerful petitions to Moses in order to have him intercede on our behalf?
Christian People often visit the alleged sight of Jesus’ resurrection (and his tomb,) in order to pray for him to intercede for them on their behalf. If this is acceptable for Christians to do, and hashem made Moses the divine dabar as you say, a word, then why did hashem hide Moses’ body, so that Jews cant pray at Moses’ grave like what the Christians do with Jesus?
Dear Con please read carefully what I wrote. You made a lot of misunderstandings based on your false conceptions. I never said that Torah is carnal but that those, to whom it was given to, were carnal minds like in our times and that we must reform our minds that it becomes spiritual to understand the things of HaShem with all their amplitude and implications.
Psalm 119 v96: ”I have seen the consummation of all perfection,
But Your commandment is exceedingly broad.”
Mosheh was NOT the dabar elohim but an elohim in the Elohim. Worship is given only to the Supreme Source of All: YHWH ELOHIM
Also that the Christian worship Yahsuo having been exalted is normal compared to Mosheh who is not yet resurrected from the dead with his ”spiritualized” body. For the Messiah is Lord and as Lord exalted he can be worshipped, for if in the Tanakh Moseh bow down to his father in law how much more Christians are allowed to bow down to the Messiah.
Shalom!!
Here is part of Psalm 118:
The voice of rejoicing and salvation
Is in the tents of the righteous;
The right hand of YHWH does valiantly.
The right hand of YHWH is exalted;
The right hand of YHWH does valiantly.
I shall not die, but live,
And declare the works of YHWH
YHWH has chastened me severely,
But He has not given me over to death.
Open to me the gates of righteousness;
I will go through them,
And I will praise the YHWH
This is the gate of the YHWH
Through which the righteous shall enter.
I will praise You,
For You have answered me,
And have become my salvation.
The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the doing of YHWH;
It is marvellous in our eyes.
This is the day YHWH has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.
Lion, you wrote that you will never worship any man, yet you worship the man Jesus, claiming he is God. What is that if not a lie?
We are the ones who do not worship any man, not you.
It seems you are incapable of reason, because instead of refuting Scriptural citations, you self-righteously claim that we are simply too “blind” and “carnal” to understand what the Scriptures really say.
If you seek to provoke us to jealousy, you are failing spectacularly. Rather, speaking for myself, you arouse my pity, for your lack of self-awareness (in not seeing how despicable your behavior is and in engaging in exactly the things you accuse us of) and delusions of grandeur (in believing yourself to be a prophet).
May God help you.
Dina thank for you kind words. May YHWH show you that the Alliance is more than the letters of Scriptures but a loving Relation with Him in spirit and truth.
The proof of that for almost 2 thousand years there is no more Temple built of stone in Yerushala’im confirms the word of Yahushuo who said to the Samaritan woman:
”21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Gospel of John 4 (NKJV)
Do not comment on me for I am a sand in the sky but comment on the essentials. What do you think of what the Messiah is saying?
The Messiah hasn’t said anything for he has not yet come. So I cannot comment on what he hasn’t said.
Whom do you think Psalm 118 is speaking about. It certainly can’t be about J’sus. There’s no way to apply it to him.
You don’t (and Christians don’t) just bow to Jesus out of respect, you rest on him for salvation and address him in prayer. NOBODY DOES THIS WITH ANYONE IN TANAKH. ITS IDOL WORSHIP.
Con,
you false Rabbi just proved to you that Abraham, Mosheh and others in the Tanakh bow down to men… What a lie from you guys quoting your own Scriptures…
We bow down only us Messihim to the One Elohim.
Yahshuo sitting along the right Hand of YHWH is exalted to the rank of Elohim even in His Exalted Humanity meaning that it just to bow down to Him. YAHUSHUO having took our flesh in the Man Yahshuo, the Messiah is clearly Elohim like many rabbis of your sect say He would be.
Your sect of Judaism is divided on the question: Is the Messiah to be will be Elohim or not??
We the true Judaism know already by the Ruah Holy and the testimony of the Resurrected Himself that the Messiah is Elohim. One with the Elohim being exalted in his Humanity for the DABAR is Elohim. For His resurrected flesh is in each perpetual Sacrifice actualized in our space and time. He receives properties of Elohim to be present in each Holy Communion.
We Messihim all Christians communing to the Holy Lamb of Eloah are one in the Messianic Body called to be princes of the world to come. We will rule and all his enemies will be our footstool like prophecies in Psalm 110:
YHWH said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
Till I make your enemies your footstool.”
Ameen!!
I find that your frustration affects the coherence in your writing.
We know about your “Ruach” from the example of Stephen. Your Ruach obviously doesn’t know Hebrew as he quoted from the Greek Septuagint rather than the Hebrew Torah. What else is necessary to be said. Your Ruach is GREEK.
Also Messihim is NOT a word. It is a bastardization of three different languages. Dabar also is Not Hebrew. Your spelling of Hashem isn’t Hebrew. There is no “W” in Hebrew. It is called a VAV.
Given all this why would or should we listen to what your ruach says or what you say.
You have highlighted the attitude of many a Xtian when you say “WE will RULE and all his enemies will be OUR footstool”. You are consumed with the possibility of ultimate power. That is your goal in life, no doubt.
Sharbano the fool speaks and he shows his ignorance.
You are a little funny fool. Ancient hebrew pronounced the VAV like the English W.
For instance EVE is not EVE but HAWAH חַוָּה Genesis 3:20
Ask your so-called rabbi he will testify. If he knows a little of ancient Hebrew.
Ultimate power belongs to YHWH that you do not know by his Name. You are banned from pronouncing the Holy Name for you were cursed by your false rabbis who put a black veil on your eyes. You choose darkness instead of the light and the price you paying is spiritual blindness. What a pity!!
But YHWH is Mercy and will send you Eliyahu to lift the veil and destroy the curse of 2000 years. It is not a mince task but by the hand of Eloah it will be…
You have never confronted one important question. Why is it that everything you are believing follows Precisely the Same as the ancient pagan religions, such as Mithra and Zoroaster. You do realize that all comes from those religions, the lamb of god, virgin birth, man becoming flesh, a fallen angel who wars with god, etc. etc. Why would G-d decide to say, “Hey maybe that old pagan ways aren’t so bad after all. I think I’ll copy them instead”. It is unbelievable that one cannot see the idolatry they are practicing. Remove ALL your hate for the Rabbis and for all the Torah Jews and do T’shuvah. I really doubt a person who is truly close to G-d would have as much hate as your do. Take a lesson from the Chofetz Chaim and the Baal Shem Tov.
Sharbano it is a good thing for to read Chofetz Chaim on the guarding of the tongue and all you slanders you did against me and Yahshuo the Messiah of Israel. You will be judge by your own words.
You slanders Christianity who brought much more to the evolution of morality and the rule of Law compare to your sect of Judaism going slowing more and more to a few hundred thousand hardly the accomplishment of the Promise made by YHWH to Abraham to make our descendants as many of the sands of the earth.
Obviously you do not know how to count. Which Religions is growing by the numbers TWO: Christianity and Islam both from Abraham seed one from Ishmael (Islam) and one from Israel (Christianity and true Judaism) where is your sect … a few hundred thousand… what a blessing?
Love (Christianity and true Judaism) is stronger than Hate
Universality (Christianity and true Judaism) is stronger than Sects
Openness (Christianity and true Judaism) is stronger than Closed-mind
Resurrection (Christianity and true Judaism) is stronger than Reincarnation
Living Torah (Christianity and true Judaism) is stronger than dead Letters
Living Body (Christianity and true Judaism) is stronger than dead Bodies
Yahshuo HaMessiah (Christianity and true Judaism) is much stronger than Baal
Yahshuo (Christianity and true Judaism) is much stronger than your dead Rebbe
Yahshuo (Christianity and true Judaism) is much stronger than your false-Messiahs
YHWH is infinitely stronger than All
YHWH gave His Promise to Israel to be like the stars in the Heavens
In which Faith the Promise is being accomplished? That is the question!!
Eliyahu I have a question for you – the people who bequeathed the name “Jew” to you – do you realize what it cost them to do this? Do you realize how much suffering they endured so that their descendants will identify as Jews? Do you realize that they would have identified your belief as the very antithesis of what the word “Jew” means? Can you articulate their view of your belief? Don’t you owe it to the ones who gave you your name to understand what the word “Jew” meant to them?
Do you really want to claim morality of Xtianity and its numbers. Considering the number of Jews at that time there should have been hundred of millions of Jews this day. Where did they go? At the hands of Xtianity they were murdered. Not only Jews but everywhere Xtianity tread they left dead bodies in their wake. It was Xtians who rounded up Jews and put them in synagogues and set fire to the building. One side of my family left Ukraine at the outset of the Russian pogroms and many know the carnage that those Xtians perpetrated. Many of the people in Nazi Germany who went after Jews, e.g.Kristallnacht , were Xtian. If you knew the origin of the name Sharbano you would know where all they went.
As far as Your “true Judaism” Was it true Judaism that began with J’sus. Can you trace a lineage of a Xtian Jew from that time. Are there Jews from that time, being Xtian, who have continued to be Jews. We DO know many a Jew who can trace their Torah observant ancestry to that time. There is one Rabbi in the business whose maternal line traces to Gamliel. The Torah Jews of today can trace the origins back to Moshe. It is that unbroken chain that has kept Torah alive throughout every generation. Where are the descendants of Paul, Peter and esepcially Stephen. Absolutely none of the Xtian Jews of that time Have survived. But the descendants of the Pharisees certainly have. Because of that Transmission there has been continuity of truth. This is not the case with Xtianity.
Oh, but Sharbano, those weren’t REAL Christians. REAL Christians love Jews.
Here is an interesting tidbit that should bring you clarity. Since you mention Xtianity and Islam, both having an origin from Avraham, Esav and Ishmael, is there a hint in Torah of these two major religions.
There are numerous mentions of wood and stone. These are in the context of the end of days. We can say with certainty there aren’t Jews following idols such as Avraham destroyed which were of his father. There has to be a correlation with idolatry of today. There is a similarity between this modern wood and stone. Xtianity teaches that the cross was needed to bear the sin of the people. It is why that image is displayed in every church. There are songs about it. That cross was made of wood. In Islam it is incumbent on every Muslim to go on their hajj to Mecca to the place of the black stone. This I never connected before, but evidently the reason that stone is black is because of all the sins of the people being laid there. Therefore we have continuity of Xtianity and Islam. Each one has sins laid on the “wood and stone”. This could very well be the intention of that phrase written so many times in Torah.
Yisroel you asked me those questions I will gladly respond to yours:
”Eliyahu I have a question for you – 1)the people who bequeathed the name “Jew” to you – do you realize what it cost them to do this? 2)Do you realize how much suffering they endured so that their descendants will identify as Jews?3) Do you realize that they would have identified your belief as the very antithesis of what the word “Jew” means? 4)Can you articulate their view of your belief?5) Don’t you owe it to the ones who gave you your name to understand what the word “Jew” meant to them?” (the numbers are my adding)
1) First to be a true Yehudi means to be sons of Praise, sons of YHWH
To arrogate a glorious name to yourself does not mean that you are what you claim
Also Yehudi(Jew) refers to the Yehudah tribe. Many called themselves Yehudi but are from Levi or Benyamin
If you refer to Yehudi a as religious appellation of those believing a certain system of belief than which sect is truly Yehudi: so-called ultra-orthodox, orthodox, karaite, conservators, liberals, messianic, converts to which sect, etc. You see the fallacy of all this. These are men denominations like in Christianity with Oh also the orthodox, catholics, protestant baptist, pentecostist, all ist… etc Let us skip Islam for now.
Only YHWH can say who are his children from his divine seed. Those will be the real princes of the world to come. Humanly Yisroel I understand your point but my fear with your sect is that you do not accomplish the Promise made by YHWH to Abraham. Where are your numbers proving your claim that YHWH is with you. My observation based on facts not ideology is that your sect is growing in Israel Yes for you have more children than the average Israeli but that still does not equal the sand of the Earth that YHWH promise to make to Abraham descendants: As many of the stars, as many of the sands of the Earth.
2)Do you realize how much suffering they endured so that their descendants will identify as Jews?
Yes that could apply to the Apostles and the first Christians who suffered till the Roman empire converted to a form of Christianity. That is the divide that brought much suffering for all Yehudim messihim or pharisees… Me speaking to you proves that we endure till now even if we were just me and you still we have endure. But where are the numbers…
Sufferings in the name of a faith is not particular to Jews or Messianic or Christians. Look around the world if you read the news. Persecution and suffering is everywhere take the Black community how much suffering they bear…by the way did you know that some of their leaders claim to be the real descendants of Israel? Who is bearing the truth Yisroel?
3) Do you realize that they would have identified your belief as the very antithesis of what the word “Jew” means?
I understand if you talk about the Christian Roman Empire who abolished all Hebraic roots. Is that not the role of Eliyahu to destroy empires and bridges the divide. Is that not a mission for all of us to try to understand the other and not live between closed doors. We are in a challenging time of great turmoil for the Faith where morals and society are attacked by rivers of corrupting spirits wanting us to rebel against our Father YHWH
Look at the music industry corrupting the youth, look at the black box (television) which promotes disobedience to the Ten Commandments. Look at all the wars for gold and money, for power and fame… Who stands here for YHWH and his children? Tikun Olam that is what defines a real Yehudi for He works for the good of all humanity. I am not a sectarian. We should love everybody especially our enemies that they may see the light of the living Torah not just the letters of those who preach in words but where their acts are an anti-testimony to the Faith (Emounah)…
4)Can you articulate their view of your belief?
Yisroel their view or yours is not the view of our forefathers. My belief in the Messiah is the accomplishment of the Promise. The numbers do not lie. The yeast of Christianity is in all countries praying the Father in heavens: Our Father who art in the heavens, hallowed be thy Name, thy Kingdom come. thy will be done…
Just that is more mitzvot than any rabbis combined would have been able to make do to the Goyim. Imagine near two billion souls praying the Our Father who art in heavens…
The point of contention for you lies in Yahshuo the Messiah the Master-Rabbi… Judge by the numbers, do the math, be an accountant, be plain and logical, no emotion who is addressing prayers the most to our Father YHWH in the heavens…
Just that should make you see the advancement of humanity toward the Messianic Era. The problem lies in Islam and those in false Judaism that share their belief system that Allah is Alone with Himself has a diktator wanting to be served… Wow exactly like your view. That should ring alarm bells in your soul!! Don’t you see that part of Israel are with the Christian caring and loving liberty and the true value of Torah and part are with Islam with their view of restricted liberty and serving a god like slaves?
I was born from the free woman SARAH not Agar. I will not subscribe to the Islamic deformation of the reality of the true Elohim. Who is their allah?? Look Yisroel at their notion of god versus yours… I do not see the difference with them and your view.
5) Don’t you owe it to the ones who gave you your name to understand what the word “Jew” meant to them?
Glory to YHWH in all things! He is the one who preserves his Name and his children. That you survive like the Buddhist or the Muslims does not make your sect the true Judaism but only show Mercy of YHWH to some of you for a purpose that you can not see now.
Conclusion the bearer of the Name in truth and spirit are the ones who obey in all things YHWH and believe that He sent his Beloved Seed to make us partakers to his Kingdom. The power of true Judaism is to be witness of the living Torah and the belief in the Resurrection where we the Yehudim will reign with the Messiah on the world to come.
I love you Yisroel may YHWH shines his Face upon you always, may He show you the Beauty of his Alliance and may your heart be filled with pure joy and peace!!
Also Yehudi(Jew) refers to the Yehudah tribe. Many called themselves Yehudi but are from Levi or Benyamin
Are you then contradicting your renowned Paul of Tarsus, who, as I recall, said he was of the tribe of Benjamin, YET, said he was a “Jew”. Also in Megillat Ester; Mordechai, a Benjamite, is called Mordecahi the Yehudi.
Since you have returned to the “dictator” philosophy I will interject this. How is YOUR theology ANY Different. You are here preaching that if all of us do not follow Your derech then we are apart from G-d. How is that NOT dictatorial. This Judaism sect you constantly decry is the sect, of many, who believe just the Opposite. All have a share in Olam Haba with Gentiles having only to be, essentially, good citizens. You EXCLUDE ALL who do not follow YOU. Therefore I see NO difference between YOU and Islam / Allah. And this says it all :
“Conclusion the bearer of the Name in truth and spirit are the ones who obey in all things YHWH and believe that He sent his Beloved Seed to make us partakers to his Kingdom”
Truly Dictatorial.
Eliyahu You did not hear my question. Let me phrase it differently. Do you realize, that if your ancestors would have chosen the easier path, the path of abandoning the faith of their fathers, then you would not realize that you are a descendant of yehudim. This being the case – don’t you think that it would be ethical and moral for you to discover what these ancestors of yours would have thought about your beliefs?
Lion, since you believe that only those lead by the spirit are chosen to know the truth, what in your view is the purpose of the literal commandments and the literal biological Jewish people? Why did G-d establish a literal promise to a literal man and his very real descendants, if the promise was only spiritually meant to be fulfilled? Why literally require animal sacrifices if they were meaningless?
Dear Con,
A body without a spirit is dead! Letters without the Ruah are dead!
A holy body without his spirit is dead! Holy Scriptures without the Ruah Holy are dead.
The goal of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Ruah holy. Obedience to the mitzvot are the good will necessary to show our desire to acquire the Ruah holy.
The ruah (of knowledge, wisdom, force, piety, counsel, fear of YHWH, intelligence) gives us a living Torah in our hearts… Without the ruah holy who can be truly righteous. Human righteousness is human not divine.
The Good-News-Message reposes on the power of the Ruah holy to transform us to be elohim as Mosheh became elohim. We become bnei’ Elohim in the matrix of the Alma in the image of Elohim according to their likeness. That is the destiny of Israel the People of Eloah.
YAHUSHUO (YHWH SAVES) became flesh in the Man Yahshuo;
The DABAR ELOHIM, the ETERNAL SON, the Holy SEED, the race DAVID (Beloved) be-came Flesh in the Man called Yahshuo
This theology is the accomplishment of Torah and Prophets. The Holy Church is the living Yerushala’im made of living stone. The sanctuary of this 3rd Temple are the Saints, the Elect worshiping in spirit and truth YHWH ETERNAL. All the rehearsal in the First and Second Temple were mere images of the Living Temple made possible by the Resurrection of the Man Messiah Yahshuo for it is of Him that the psalm 118 is talking about when it says:
22
The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
23
YHWH has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.
24
YHWH has done it this very day;
let us rejoice today and be glad. (Psalm 118)
I have noticed when someone confronts you with actual proof to your errors you consistently focus elsewhere and evidently hope the questioner will simply “forget about it”. Since virtually all your theology is premised on vague ambiguities I daresay your entire religion should be called Vagueology. It would be more suitable to your use of scripture. You have yet to cite One clear reference. It is said a heretic will show a proof and the truth will be found close by.
You have given many references in Tanach to support your suppositions. We have to ask, where does this originate. Surely before the time of Jsus these ideas weren’t conceived of. It was the advent of the Xtian text that supplanted the concepts. Therefore, in order to verify the validity of the claims we must first put the Xtian text to the test. Is it from G-d, is it reliable, is it accurate. If it is truly G-d’s wish that it was His intention then the text that expounds the belief MUST be accurate and reliable in all matters.
In what manner can we test such a conclusion. First of all we have to make assumptions. If this Xtian text is “based” upon the Hebrew bible we have to assume that it is One hundred percent authoritative. Using that as a standard we can use that authoritative standard as comparison. One unique occurrence that permeates the entire Tanach is G-d speaking. There are many variations that enhance its comparison. There are times it says, “And G-d says…; “And G-d said to …, saying” ; “The word of the L-rd came to…”. “The L-rd G-d said to…” These are all examples of the method that was employed in order for people to realize Who was speaking and in What authority. Clearly, when G-d wants His intentions KNOWN He has a method of letting it be known.
How does this compare to what is suppose to be a continuation of the same and, supposedly further expanded it with the Xtian text. Do we find G-d actually speaking as He had done previously. It isn’t sufficient to say a man came as a god, who became flesh and it should suffice. Once he has become man, and ages as a man, he doesn’t have the same authority as One who oversees All. By omitting the constant of “G-d said” in the Xtian text is has been deemed “Less” than the original and by default insignificant.
The answer of many has been that the Ruach is the guiding light that gives knowledge. All will admit, Xtian and Jew, that those in ancient times Also had the Ruach HaKodesh. What makes those different than than the latter. It is the same as above. Those prophets, and others, still had the same method of relating the information. A prophet will say, “G-d came to me in a dream…”. “The L-rd said to me…” These are examples of the Ruach HaKodesh telling the prophet what G-d wants to be known to the people. Now, do we have ANY of these occurrences in the Xtian text. Needless to say G-d is literally ABSENT in the text. If these writers really and truly believed and knew what they spoke was of G-d why didn’t G-d come to THEM and say it to them. Otherwise they are using their OWN words and NOT those of Hashem.
We cannot end it here though. What to do about the writings themselves. If these are Words of G-d they simply must agree with everything G-d has already sanctioned. Do the authors show faithfulness to the words of the prophets or are they selecting only few words that change what the prophet, from G-d, had originally said. How many occurrences are there of the Xtian writer say, “according to the word of such prophet”. Does the writer reflect the intention of the prophet or his own conclusions. The example of Stephen in Acts 7 can teach a great lesson. The man Stephen, who was filled with the Spirit, gave a speech declaring knowledge of Torah. His words, along with that spirit, must be true in all respects. Otherwise His words are not from Hashem. There is no doubt his words were Not in accordance with Torah. If he misrepresents Torah then how much more so is his misrepresentation of Hashem.
Sharbano your argumentation is flaw. I have demonstrated that Stephen was not in error but that even the Torah text did not count as we count in our time. No women counted and Yosef was counted with his son Manasseh and Ephraim while they were already in Egypt. The 70 number is symbolic in the Tanakh and in Acts it is more precise as demosntrated on my previous posts on the subject that you did not read obviously.
The Sichem has been posted yesterday with the message given to Yisroel. Go see my explanation. The message on Ezechiel chap.40 and beyond are included on this message also.
Now concerning the Authority of Scriptures well if only you take the Book of Revelation and the Gospel you will find prophecies that came to past. The actions of the Apostles were a living prophetic message in action not just in words. For actions are proof of words. For who preach and do not act accordingly is an hypocrite.
Also here I will give one passage of the Apocalypse that show the power of the vision of Yohan in chapter 11:
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
A question arise here:: 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days
How can nations people and tongues see their dead bodies?? It was not possible in Yohan time. Only through modern media can we see an event and broadcast it worldwide…
It’s NOT what YOU or Stephen has to say on the matter but what does TORAH say on the matter. Torah SPECIFICALLY states there were 70, for which there is a reason. Torah lists the 70 that it counts. You clearly don’t understand HOW Torah works. He clearly misrepresented Torah and thereby is flawed. Besides those aren’t the only mistakes Stephen makes. Referring to your previous posts as “answers” are wanting. You have NOT shown how it is the Second Temple. I HAVE showed how it is the Third Temple. You really really need to start being honest with YOURSELF. It’s as the saying goes, “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up.”
What you have to say regarding “Apocalypse” has no merit. Nothing such as this has ever happened. It has about as much accuracy as the Iliad and the Odyssey. So whatever is written in your Xtian text is of no consequence since I have Proven that it is questionable at best.
I’ll reiterate the point the Rabbi made. Are you suggesting that there were only 5 (FIVE) wives of all the men. What form of polygamy is this. Rather, what we DO know is that Stephen relied on the GREEK Ruach since his words came from the GREEK Septuagint. And here we are led to believe you were familiar with Greek. Surely you have read the Septuagint. Do you need us to quote it for you. (That way you won’t have to look it up in Strong’s).
Lion, you don’t know how to just answer a question simply do you? YOU HAVE SOME MYSTICAL MEANING KNOWN ONLY TO YOU IN ALL YOUR WORDS.
You talk a ton about how the letter is dead without this special ruach, BUT WHEN HASHEM ACTUALLY GAVE THE LETTER TO ISRAEL, HE SAID, Deuteronomy 30:15 “see I have set before you today LIFE AND GOOD DEATH AND EVIL 16inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to WALK in His ways, and to OBSERVE HIS COMMANDMENTS, His statutes, and His ordinances, SO THAT YOU WILL LIVE AND INCREASE, and the Lord, your God, WILL BLESS YOU IN THE LAND to which you are coming to take possession of it. IF YOU OBSERVE MITZVOT YOU ARE BLESSED.
YOU SAY THE LETTER IS DEAD, THAT IS NOT WHAT TORAH PLAINLY SAYS AT ALL.
for once lion, just read TORAH’s words by themselves. YOU ARE RESTORTING TO BASHING THE PLAIN MEANING OF THE TORAH IN ORDER TO PROVE YOUR POINTS. That is not a stable biblical understanding, because literally anyone could say and claim that they speak with the spirit of G-d. The only way to KNOW TRUTH FROM FALSEHOOD IS THROUGH A FAITHFUKNESS TO G-D’s MITZVOT WHICH YOU DECRY AS UNSPIRITUAL. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH, JEWS HAVE RECIEVED WHAT G-D wanted.
Con, you asked me I will respond to your questions:
1) What in your view is the purpose of the literal commandments and the literal biological Jewish people?
Who is obeying truly to the commandments? So-called orthodox Jews, I do not believe so. What is their service in my country Israel? What is their Tikun Olam? They only study and what good in actions they do for their fellow Yehudim (Jews). They judge the laymen and women for they are blind to the reality of those who surround them and who support them.
2)Why did G-d establish a literal promise to a literal man and his very real descendants, if the promise was only spiritually meant to be fulfilled?
First who is a real descendants of Israel? Those who believed in the Messiah having come in the Flesh. They recognized their shepherd who gave his life for them. The ones who did not believe are the rebels the seed of the satan like predicted in Genesis 3.
It is the soul who determines who is Israel or not. The blood lines have all been corrupted.
Do a research on a whole people of Eurasia that converted to the sect of false Judaism they have corrupted the blood line of most Askhenazi so-called Jews, your rebbe was of this line. For the Sephardic Jews quite a number of us believes in the Messiah but many for fear do not reveal it… The Sephardic Jews are more direct descendants of Israel, but many of us were contaminated by the venom of the false rabbinic lies and deceits and thus been cursed for 2000 years (that is many years for our sin of rejection of the Messiah, if we were right we would not have been banned from Israel for that long, just that is a proof that the false rabbis had cursed us…)
Now all the descendants of Israel who recognize Yahshuo as the Messiah are bless and will be rewarded by YHWH. They will see the Glory to come, for the false Jews, sectarian and haters of the truth will become footstool of the princes to reign in Yerushala’im. For it is written:
in Psalm 110:
”YHWH said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.”
and Psalm 45 v.16-17:
”Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.”
3)Why literally require animal sacrifices if they were meaningless?
It was required in the age of ram which was terminated with the Second Temple destruction for Yahshuo was the Sacrificial perfect Lamb to redeem us from the slavery of sin and save us from the destruction of angel of death. He made us enter the age of dag to give us the grace of the living waters.
The proof that they were abolished is for almost TWO thousand years, they were no more animal sacrifices. That was a pale image of the perfect Sacrifice to be performed once and for all, done on the altar of the holy Cross.
You are quickly becoming a broken record.
GOD DID NOT MAKE A PROMISE ONLY SPIRITUALLY FULFILLED. What do you think Torah is?
Are you NOW spouting the Anti-Semitic notions that Jews are really Khazars. Only virulent Ant–Semites perpetrate this nonsense. I suspect you are a believer in replacement theology and thereby call yourself a Jew only because of a messianic complex. You wouldn’t be the first. There are numerous Gentiles who call themselves Jews BECAUSE of a belief. A belief means nothing in regards to heritage. Evidently you consider your soul Jewish, in your messiah’s name, therefore believe you are a Jew.
You have some serious delusions are they are becoming more and more pronounced. What we do know is those who have TRULY KEPT THE COVENANT you admit you despise. Read Ezekiel and see that those who have kept Torah and their descendants will be vindicated at the time of the Third Temple.
Sharbano the strong delusion is on you for 2 thousand years. Why did YHWH permitted this? For my Yehudi blood I know my roots my two grandmothers are from the Hayat family and belong also to the Karam family (my great grandmother). I will not expose all my ancestor for it is not pertinent to our discussions. But your lies about me only show your poor judgement and how corrupt you are in your mind.
You do not impress me one bite. You are actually a real living proof with your rabbi of how when defeated in arguments you make use of your famous character assassination. It shows that my arguments based on all Tanakh are more powerful than your false theology. The argument that there is a few hundred thousand of your sect who believes your false doctrine is not a proof of preservation of Torah. You are extinguishing yourselves more and more by the curse that your bring on your children and still you continue in your strong delusion even after YHWH permitted the atrocities of the German monster and anti-messiah contemptible man…
Examine your conscience and see if you heart is pure of any sin… Do you really love all your Yehudim brothers and Israel or just those of your sect?? That will give you an indication is you are really a true Yehudi or not??
I love all my brothers with no exception even of you prideful sect. That is why a give my time to educate and try to give a little light into your darkness…
Character assassinations? That’s been your modus operandi for quite some time. I, for one, have never encountered ANY Jew who had such a visceral hatred for their brethren. I have seen self-hating Jews that didn’t have the vitriol that you have presented here.
All you can say in complaint is “your rabbi”. Well, Every Rabbi I have ever known or heard has Forgot more than you will Ever know. You should realize it is these Rabbis that will most likely be active when the Third Temple comes to pass, along with their sacrifices I might add. You Really really need to look at yourself. What you are accusing others of you have perpetrated a hundred fold. I will put it as Rav Amnon Yitzchak had when confronted about sects. He compared the Jewish nation to the IDF and everyone plays their part. As an example he said the Neturei Karta were like the commandos. I have given aid and support to all different sects, ultra-Zionists to anti-Zionists, depending on the purpose.
One thing that I’ve noticed in your diatribes is consistently referring to everyone and “their sects”. I doubt you even know what any of us are affiliated with. It’s just another attempt at denigration. Others have made the point on several occasions where you have been vindictive. Actually the number of frum Jews in the world today has exceeded any time in history. So a few hundred thousand as you say does not bear the truth.
What IS worth a consideration is how YOU came to this point in life. In accordance with your zealotry for your beliefs I daresay you may have come from a point in life of sheer despondence. When one is confronted with this in life and does find some vehicle to eliminate it, that person unwittingly becomes zealous in their pursuits. It’s not unlike someone who has quit smoking and becomes radical in their opposition. It is similar with those who were obese and pursued exercise and a healthy lifestyle. They too become radical in the exercise arena. It is quite typical of people who have “found religion” after a life of despair to equate that with something spiritual in nature. We can see this not only in Xtianity but in every other religion and movement, from Buddhism to Scientology. They all had miraculous reversals.
If a person wants to examine G-d’s “reasons” for what has occurred over the ages he should read about Elijah and “G-d’s Justice Vindicated”. Events aren’t what they may seem. If one looks at the testimony of the Wannsee conference we find it said that why bother with the Jews. In a generation or two they will be assimilated to the point there would be none left. Since this was a definite issue with the Jews of that time it is quite possible that the Shoah occurred in order to “Preserve” the Jewish people. The one result was many many Torah Jews. This is the lesson of Elijah in G-d’s vindication. One should be careful how they attribute the actions of G-d. One part of that story of Elijah and the Rabbi was when they encountered a couple with a single cow and asked for food. After they ate Elijah kills the cow and leaves. Was it right or wrong to do that.
By the way, when are you going to answer the many many questions several have been asking. You keep diverting the issue and changing focus to that which is insignificant.
If you are unwilling answer the questions then you are acknowledging you cannot answer the question as it it is contrary to YOUR impressions. The truth is difficult to overcome.
I have answered all the questions to the best of my knowledge. Show me one that I did not answered. But you and your rabbis has diverted my arguments from Tanakh and all the questions I have asked you.
Con is the one who has engaged in a debate in the best of his view. Jim also to a certain extent but with some verbiage that sometimes are more pseudo-philosophical than theological…
Actually you haven’t answered the questions. You attributed Stephen’s mention of the 75 as pertaining to wives. He didn’t mention any wives. This was of your own making. As has been said on several occasions, did only five have wives. You are unable to explain the WHY of 70 vs 75. There are multiple reasons for the 70. And this wasn’t the only error Stephen had made. Since you are unclear on the facts we can certainly conclude you never had an education in a Yeshiva since all this would have been discussed. Without such an education how can you attack the Rabbis for what They teach if you haven’t the knowledge of comparison.
Who is obeying truly to the commandments? So-called orthodox Jews, I do not believe so. What is their service in my country Israel? What is their Tikun Olam? They only study and what good in actions they do for their fellow Yehudim (Jews).
Lion, why do you so strongly believe that modern rabbinic orthodox Jews are Khazars? look at some DNA studies, it will dispel this ridiculous notion.
Ever hear of the kohen haplotype? Why do you believe Jews don’t keep the commandments? Off course they do! They keep the sabbath, they eat kosher, they are not idol worshipers, etc.
Let’s take a look at your own book of Acts, chapter 15 as a prime example of practices that Jews WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS DO ACTUALLY KEEP, WHILE MOST BELIEVERS IN JESUS DON’T KEEP ANY.
GENTILE Christians are told clearly in the 15th chapter to follow some basic rules in Acts 15, that even the most religious Christians today do not keep. “Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.”
4 of these rules handed down by the apostles themselves deal exclusively with the question of what food a gentile Christian is permitted vs not permitted to eat. You are not allowed to consume blood, to eat strangled (ie inhumanly slaughtered animals,) blood, or any food involved with idolatry. Does it occur to you at all that the disciples here are basically telling GENTILE Christians to keep basic kashrut in these verses? JEWS ACTUALLY FOLLOW THESE RULES, WHILE VIRTUALLY NO CHRISTIANS JEW OR GENTILE KEEP THEM.
You say that the only “real Jews” are the ones who have embraced your Jesus as word made flesh, but even your own scripture shows that it is those who follow the mitzvot that are the righteous Romans 2:13.
Jesus has to be proved from the Torah. He hasn’t yet finished the Job of the messiah (as even Christians admit by teaching the second coming.)
Do you know that while you have besmirched the oral Torah of the rabbis as an irrelevant invention of men, your Jesus actually employs its arguments in John 7:23?
Leviticus 19:11 says plainly not to cut your body, or tattoo it. (How much more so is this true on Shabbat because to cut something would be considered work,) but Jesus says Circumcision may be performed on sabbath so that the law is fulfilled. Jesus’ reasoning in this verse cannot be based on an argument from the written text alone, but from JEWISH ORAL TRADITION.
Leviticus 19:28 sorry.
Bad Methodology
This comment does not relate exactly to the discussion here, except tangentially. These thoughts were provoked by listening to a CCM (counter-counter-missionary).
This CCM was speaking to a woman who was wondering what parts of Tanach should she present to Jewish readers to help them see Jesus in its pages. She had heard or read the testimonies of Jews who had read Tanach and suddenly realized that Jesus was the Messiah. One of these was a man who was angry that his daughter had come to Christianity. One night he began at Genesis and just started reading Tanach, and by morning he was convinced that Jesus was the Messiah. So, she wanted to know how to direct other Jews, so they likewise could find Jesus in Tanach.
Before going in to what is wrong with this as a methodology, I wish also to discuss the answer from the CCM. He thought she was taking the wrong approach. To him, it would be more effective to get them reading the NT, because they were probably not reading Tanach as it was, and so telling them to read something in which they already showed little interest was of no use. He gloried in the story of a man who believed in Jesus as the Messiah just from reading the genealogy in Matthew 1.
I would like to say that there is something wrong with the approach being taken here. Anybody who reads Matthew 1 and comes to Jesus has done so precipitously. This is not a studied and careful decision. If I were to be in a political debate, and I did not even get to my main argument, and someone suddenly flipped from one conviction over to my side, I would not be satisfied that they understood or considered the question carefully. I would not rejoice to have convinced someone of my argument.
Someone who makes a decision based on so little evidence has rushed to judgment. The CCM recommended getting NT’s into the hands of Jews, particularly those put out like groups like Jews for Jesus, because they are specially tailored to the Jewish people. They address their concerns. But I would like to point out that the approach he has taken is to prey upon the ignorance of people. The Jews he is talking about are those unfamiliar with Tanach.
However, the Torah is the foundation of everything. If one has not read Torah, one will not even understand the elements of which Christianity is supposed to be comprised. Likewise, if one does not read Nevi’im before reading the NT, one can have no clue whether or not Jesus is the Messiah. One will have only a vague conception of what the Messiah is. Because they do not make the elements that define the Messiah, they will be totally unqualified to determine if Jesus conforms to that definition or not. They will be in a place where their decision to follow Jesus will be based on prejudice.
Worse, they will go understand the Torah and Torah teachers in the light of the NT. The NT will become the foundation for them of Torah. The NT taints their reading of Tanach. Those parts that appear to them to be backward will be those parts that Jesus did not abolish, exactly, but fulfilled so that no one would have to. Some of those things only existed to point to him in the first place. To come to this conclusion, they will have to ignore those parts of Torah that give a different reason for their existence than given in the Torah. (For example, a Christian will usually make Pesach and Shabbat about Jesus, rather than an acknowledgement of God’s actions and the dependence of Man upon God. At best, Pesach will be about both the exodus and the crucifixion, but the crucifixion, which is supposed to reconcile humanity to God and promote spiritual freedom, is the greater element to be celebrated.)
Furthermore, they become prejudiced against the teachers of the Torah. In the NT, the rabbis are made out to be the villains, sneering self-righteous hypocrites who sought to trap the pure Jesus through their verbal trickery. So, when an informed party attempts to explain Torah to a Jewish Christian, the Christian already hold the teacher in the greatest suspicion. He may not even listen to the facts presented, because he considers the words of the rabbis to be those of hypocrites and “blind guides”.
What can a teacher say to someone that made up his mind after one genealogy has convinced him? How can he provide answers when his knowledge is to be denigrated? When the actual definition of Messiah is presented to one who made up his mind before understanding the facts, he is not receptive to the definition. In his mind this is more verbal trickery of the rabbis.
Obviously this methodology creates many problems, if one is seeking for truth. Should the woman’s methodology be adopted then? If one wants to investigate the question of Jesus, should he begin poring over Tanach?
This would seem to be the way, but it is not. Yes, one should study Tanach for the truth, for a right understanding of God. But the woman in question wants to focus the mind on Jesus first. The reader who adopts her approach to Torah will not be studying it with the message of Torah paramount. They will be constantly asking, “Can this be talking about Jesus?”
At first glance, this might seem a sound approach, because the answer could be “no”. The problem is, one is already contextualizing Torah with Jesus in mind. The fact of the matter is, the Torah hardly refers to the Messiah at all, whether it’s Jesus or not. One should be attempting to understand the topic of any given passage. One should frequently find himself asking, “Why is Torah telling me this?” The question should be getting to the message of Torah.
When one comes to Torah looking for Jesus, one makes him the a priori focus of his Torah learning. One is bound, then, to find all sorts of allusions to the object of one’s focus. A phrase here and a sentence there will call to mind some characteristic attributed by the Church to Jesus. Because of the influence of the Church, this is bound to happen even more than one would expect. The Church has turned so many verses away from their meaning and applied them to Jesus that even one not particularly steeped in Christianity is likely to associate this or that verse with him. Those will resound in the mind of the reader with a particularly Christological message.
Others verses, of which the Church has not made so great a use or do not resonate in the mind of the reader as bearing on the Jesus question, will be passed over too quickly. They are not of interest to this Jesus-oriented reading. The reader has created confirmation bias unwittingly, because the only verses that are bound to count in his mind are those that seem to relate to the topic at hand, which is whether or not Jesus is in Tanach. Those verses that seem possible to relate to Jesus are the focus and stand out to the reader. The others are irrelevant. The message of Torah is lost as the mind passes by that which is not of immediate interest.
This is why the man who was angered by his daughter’s conversion to Christianity suddenly found Jesus in the pages of Tanach. One night of study suddenly opened up his mind to seeing Jesus in its pages. It appears to me that the reason for this is because he was looking for him. If he had been looking for Muhammad he would have found him too. Or Joseph Smith. Or Horace’s Tree. He found Jesus because he had fixed him in the mind as the object of thought before approaching Torah. Any time he read something that resonated with the object of thought, it popped out to him. But in one night, he surely did not review the facts properly and make sure he understood the topic of the new found “Christological” passages. They struck a chord and that was that.
In my opinion, therefore, it is not a sound methodology to approach Tanach to look to see if Jesus is hidden therein. One’s entire orientation is confused. One must study Torah for its truths in general. If Jesus were hidden therein, eventually he would be discovered. But the Torah is not a book of Messiah. Studying it as if it were warps its meaning and the mind that hopes to discover its truths.
Jim
The Christians have so radically altered the way Tanach ought to be read, that in effect they took the Hebrew Bible and turned it into the Christian Old Testament. William Nicholls explains this compellingly in his book “Christian Anti-Semitism: A History of Hate.”
Dina
I was looking at the New Advent website bible and many places where the word messiah is used they inserted the word Jesus. To many Christian that’s proof enough.
Can you give me an example from the “Old Testament”? Thanks.
I’ll have to look it up, but first I must go to work.
Dina,here is an excerpt from Daniel 9 in the New Advent Catholic Bible from the New Advent Website.
“Be assured of this, and mark it well; a period of seven weeks must go by, and another period of sixty-two weeks, between the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the Christ to be your leader. Street and wall will be built again, though in a time of distress; 26 and then sixty-two weeks must pass before the Christ is done to death; the people will disown him and have none of him. Then the army of an invading leader will destroy both city and sanctuary, so that his taking away will mean utter destruction; only a ruin is to be left when that war is ended. 27 High covenant he shall make, before another week is done, and with folks a many; but when that week has run half its course, offering and burnt-sacrifice shall be none; in the temple all shall be defilement and desolation, and until all is over, all is fulfilled, that desolation shall continue.[2]”
As you can see, this translation is very selectively rendered as to appear christological. Also not commonly known is that the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles are based on Church preserved Greek texts coupled with non canonical books in their Tanakh versions. Some of these sources point in commentary to the wisdom of ben Sirah as “proof” of a Jesus to come (because the book is called the wisdom of Jesus ben sirah,) as well as verses referring to Yehoshua ben Yehozadek.
Interestingly,the Ethiopian Orthodox Christians have 1 Enoch included in their “old testament” books because of allusions (in chapter 7 I believe) to a “divine” messiah figure. So, honestly, considering the sources they use, I don’t blame the Christian laypeople for what they see in the texts they are exposed to, because they literally have different books, and a different lens.
Oh my, that is very instructive. Thank you, Con.
Had a misquote. It is not chapter 7 of 1 Enoch, but 1 Enoch 46:1-4 that the Ethiopian orthodox draw on for one of the claims they make about Jesus.
Dina,
I’ll have to get that book.
I consider it a great crime and deception that Christian Bibles contain the Tanach and NT. It does alter the reading of Tanach and grants to the NT a credibility it does not deserve. By appending the NT to Tanach it creates a false sense of continuity and unity. I wholly agree that Christians have altered the way one reads Tanach.
Jim
My only quibble with the book is that the author sometimes digresses into speculation, especially the first part which explores who the historical Jesus might have been. Since we will never know, being that neither Jesus nor anyone who knew him directly left us any writings, he argues for what he wishes Jesus might have been and supports his arguments with pure conjecture. He is on solid ground, however, when he discusses verifiable, historical, and footnoted facts.
He is one of the few Christian theologians who really gets it. He understands where Jews are coming from and the terrible history of their persecution by their Christian neighbors. For these reasons I recommend reading the book.
Not only that, but they changed the order. Instead of Tehillim following the prophets they have their Xtian text following the prophets, if I remember correctly.
Morpheus: I’m trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You’re the one that has to walk through it.
Neo: Why do my eyes hurt?
Morpheus: You’ve never used them before.
Universality (Christianity and true Judaism) is stronger than Sects
Eli, I cannot believe you (as a supposedly knowledgeable Christian) would dare to accuse Torah/rabbinic Judaism of division and sectarianism? DO YOU NOT KNOW OUR CHRISTIAN HISTORY AT ALL? REALLY?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
Peruse this list with extreme care brother. I would honestly retract that statement of yours for the sake of honesty.
Lion,
In your opinion, it makes more sense to see the promise to Abraham that his descendants would be numerous fulfilled in either the Christians or the Muslims. Let us take up this interpretation.
Regarding the Muslims, Torah refutes this interpretation openly. That is to say, God does make a promise to make the descendants of Ishmael a great nation. And God promises to “make him fruitful” and “increase him most exceedingly” (Gen. 17.20). However, it is clear that this is a separate promise, because Abraham had said, “O that Ishmael might live before you” (17.18). But this is a separate promise to the one made regarding Isaac, the primary promise. The numbers of the Muslims then, do not indicate that they are the fulfillment of the primary promise, but a second promise was made regarding Ishmael.
We are left then with the question of whether the Jewish people or the Christian people are the fulfillment of this promise. You have mocked the idea that the relatively small Jewish people, a number that is even smaller if one limits the count to Torah observant Jews. The Christian people far outnumber this tiny minority.
What we must know is who qualifies to make up this great number of people. It is not numbers, obviously, which are the sole qualifier. If it were so, the Chinese might be the leading contenders. But they do not have a connection to Abraham, either physically or spiritually.
Now you will insist that it is Abraham’s spiritual descendants who fulfill this promise, not those given to him by birth. However, this is denied by the nature of the promise itself. It is given through Isaac, a physical child. If it were a spiritual promise, then Eliezer or another of Abraham’s servants could have been heir to the promise. Actually, it would not apply to only one of them, it would apply to them all.
But God was founding a nation of priests. For this task He wanted a family, just as it is only sons of Levi that can serve as priests in the temple. This promise was given to Isaac and his “offspring after him” (17.19). The word “zera,” here translated as “offspring,” refers to physical descendants. And so the Torah continues to trace the lineage of Isaac’s descendants.
And when we look to Torah, we see how great that nation did become. In fact, we see that the children of Israel are the fulfillment of that promise. In Deuteronomy, Moses tells the people of Israel: “With seventy souls did your ancestors descend to Egypt, and now HaShem, your God, has made you like the stars of heaven for abundance” (10.22). But if you should say that you acknowledge that they were numerous as stars but not as sand, then I will say that there has been innumerably more people added to that genealogy since the time that Moses declared them as numerous as the stars. Moreover, the Torah is clearly employing figurative language.
On a related note, you have attempted to distance yourself from the abusive practices of the historical Church. And I would ask you to consider this, if their fruit does not count against the Church, proving it to be a bad tree, then neither do their numbers count in tallying Christians. I am certain you will concede that there are many false Christians out there. In fact, since you limit the number of Jews to be counted according to their ideology, then you must accept the same limitation for counting Christians. Taking this into consideration, you will find that there are many fewer Christians than you at first supposed. Many of that great multitude you counted will not qualify. In fact, it is likely that one cannot know how many or few Christians there are. Perhaps they too only number in the thousands. Certainly your own NT will attest to this, as it says: “For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
And it should be noted again, that you have operated from a definition that has no basis in Torah. You define followers of Jesus as those that fulfill the promise. But the promise does not in any way indicate fulfillment through belief in the Messiah. In fact, the Messiah is not a central figure within Torah. Nowhere is the promise to Abraham linked to the Messiah.
Jim
Lion,
You write of slander. Let us take up this topic.
You would not like us to slander Jesus. This would disallow us to make honest inquiry. You have assumed his goodness and expect us to do the same. However, this we cannot do. We must examine and consider the facts carefully. And you will see that almost universally, whenever one of us attributes wrongdoing to Jesus, it is based on the testimony of the NT. We do not create from thin air sins that we then attribute to him. But we recognize that many of the things he is supposed to have done in the NT, and which the gospel writers considered good, are actually not good. We see that Jesus was a man who sinned just as other men. (At one point, you actually agreed with me that if he did the things he is supposed to have done in the NT, he would be a sinner.) This is not slander but analysis, an analysis made necessary by the Christian claim that Jesus was sinless and that every statement he made was true and good. These are truth claims that must be examined and not accepted mindlessly. By accusing us of slander at every turn, you limit fair inquiry into the Christian claims.
Jim
Jim I hear your point. Inquiry is imperative especially like Yisroel reminds us that without rabbinic keeping the forefathers faith we could not be called today Yehudim (Jews). This I understand.
But my point is that if Christianity was not based on a testimony of reality as seen by eye-witnesses (Apostles and Disciples having seen the Resurrected Messiah) than the spread of this Religion would not have been possible according to Gamaliel own words.
If YHWH is on the side of someone this one can not be defeated. An army against someone protected by YHWH Almighty this someone will vanquish.
I will remind you that Christianity spread in the first centuries battling against the powerful forces of Paganism. That the Christian were considered atheist for the refused to bow down to the emperor and the roman idols. This requires super-human courage that only the Ruah holy can give. This in your inquiry must be taken into account.
Christians today greatly exaggerate Roman persecution of Christians. Nevertheless, persecution of a group doesn’t prove the group has God’s favor. Blacks were persecuted in this country. Dying for your beliefs proves nothing either; every religion has its martyrs.
Lion,
Leaving aside Gamliel for the moment, I will address your other points.
Let us inquire whether or not people are able to go to extreme lengths, willing to suffer or die, without the strength of the ruah. Around the world right now, you have mentioned that there are extremist Muslims who are willing to kill themselves in the name of their religion. This is not, I assume you will agree, due to the ruah. They have a strong conviction in their rectitude. They also have a a firm conviction that they will be rewarded in the afterlife, a conviction which strengthens their courage. It is not only the ruah that allows people to bravely face death or torment.
It is not even religious conviction alone which grants this. Do you recall during Vietnam that some Buddhist monks (I believe they were Buddhist) lit themselves on fire in protest? I again assume that you will not credit such conviction as coming from the ruah.
And, of course, if the standard of truth you wish to present is that people were willing to die for their beliefs, then you must credit the Jewish people for enduring the persecutions of the Church. Many times the Jew was told that he must entrust his soul to Jesus, but the Jew would not abandon HaShem. He clung to God, Who spoke to him at Horeb, saying, “You shall have no other gods”. If we apply your test to the Jew, a seemingly superhuman ability to endure in the face of persecution, then we must conclude that they hold the truth, that they are empowered by the ruah.
What we see then is that the test you propose is no test at all. For many people have endured great hardship for things they believed, true or false. If the ruah were the only source of such conviction, then it would make a good test. But we see that such conviction is shown by those to whom you ascribe falsehood, or at least deny in them the power of the ruah.
Jim
P.S. I note, also, that you changed the subject of the comment. My comment regarding proper inquiry was about the limits you set upon inquiry by calling all criticism of Jesus slander. You have side-stepped that issue by creating a different line of inquiry, and one which is unfruitful at that. Do you deny us the right to inquire into the character of Jesus, even while you demand that we acknowledge his moral perfection?
I have heard others use Gamliel’s words as confirmation of the legitimacy of Xtianity. For one, we can be certain he wasn’t speaking regarding a “Gentile” religion. I’m sure his intention was that if it were true it would continue, as a Jewish movement, throughout the ages. But this wasn’t the case. By the time the original followers that were Jewish died off it quickly became a solely Gentile religion. As time progressed it lost of its Jewish influence. The time of Constantine bears this out. It was at the council of Nicea that transformed the religion to a point where it became the antithesis of Judaism. Considering all this I would say that Gamliel’s words Were true and it didn’t survive.
Yes that could apply to the Apostles and the first Christians who suffered till the Roman empire converted to a form of Christianity.
Actually Lion, we know easily from studying history that persecution under pagan Rome (of Christians) pales in comparison to the Christian Roman empire’s persecution of Christians and others. If G-d’s body of “true believers” is an invisible body of the truly righteous from all nations as you claim, what do you make of the charges of heresy made against so many millions of Christians, (some of whom only had a difference of belief from orthodoxy regarding the 2 natures of Jesus?) The supposed Holy Roman Empire which you laude, (and her children the Protestants,) have killed more Christians than can even be counted, yet you want Jews to consider these numbers of followers of a converted Rome as a positive thing? You actually blame Orthodox Jews for not embracing a belief system that is so easily abused?
The Torah tells Jews that miracles, numbers, and mysticism do not matter for this very reason. Pagan Rome may have recieved a Bible, but Christians did and do not obey the simplest commandments or actions taught therein by G-d, or their teacher. You keep saying surely Orthodox Judaism is not the correct path, but I wonder what your exposure to it is? How involved were you in Judaism? Orthodox, reform? Have you prayed with the orthodox? Read machzor with them? Set at table? If you had done these things you could not make the generalizations about “Talmudic Judaism” that you do. Peace
Con, I am against Imperial Christianity of Constantin who changed the rules and who is anti-Torah. This I realize.
I want you to rectify something. I was raised and baptized in Alexandria Egypt in the French Maternity as a Maronite Christian (Messihim, in Lebanese we say Massih=Christ). Maronite uses the Aramaic in their Liturgy. The Maronite Militia are the Christians who fought with Ariel Sharon in the Lebanon war of 1982. My father is Maronite. My oncle was part of this pro-Israel militia. I said all this before you can search it. I was never brought in any sect of Judaism.(orthodox, conservators, liberals, karaite, messianic, etc)
I went only once in a synagogue for the marriage of my two friends.
My two grandmothers are Yehudi from the Hayat family. Hayat from the Hebrew means Taylor like Elisabeth Taylor who was from the Hayat family. But that is not the topic here. But my grandfather on my father side comes from a powerful family from Lebanon he is a Christian Maronite. I’m circumcised but never been taught in a yeshiva.
I am not here to make my biography the important things are what are discussing. I hope you will understand where I come from.
I also have Egyptian heritage brother, my grandmother was born there. My point is made the, all the more clearly. If you only have a Christian upbringing with no exposure to traditional Judaism, how on earth can you judge it’s motives so harshly? You should at least be able to say that you have tried to learn their beliefs before bashing it?
Con I do not find the arguments brought up against Yahushuo a Yehudi satisfying. They sounds more like propaganda. I am against all empires and all propaganda. We Messihim from the Middles East were always persecuted either by the Roman and the Roman Christians or the Muslim. Nobody ever understood us for us the Massih (Messiah) was sent for us to gather us back to the Faith of our forefathers. But when Yehudim misrepresent us I will always defend my brothers even though I am a Yehudi by blood.
Injustice is not ok either side. It is time that All Israel (I am not talking about Esau-Edom-the Romans) be reunited. For when I read the Prophets the message the prophecies are crystal clear. Just take Ezekiel 37:
One Kingdom, One King
15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”
(NKJV)
A question for you, EL
Since you have maligned all these sects of Judaism and the method of Torah observance what do you propose all these Jews do differently. How is Your observance different than what is practiced by many. Do you restrain your walking on Shabbat, not pursuing personal affairs, refrain from carrying anything, or taking it out of the house, kindle a fire etc. These are the many observances that frum Jews follow. If this is all done and you do the same, how is there a difference.
Sharbano I do Shabat and many in my Christian surroundings do not understand it. It is very difficult to observe but I love observing Shabat I do not seek personal affairs but I rest, reading Tanakh. I chant Tehilim, I sleep more… I do not go out of my place and I do not go to any synagogue.
My situation is very difficult for I want to be 100% a follower of all the Commandments but being baptized Eastern Christian my education is all Christian. I come to realize that something is wrong in the way we perceive my brothers Yehudim. But I know also the Yahshuo is the Messiah of Israel. Most of the Christians of the Middle East are descendants of the lost tribes that is why when we were lost we believed the Apostles (Jews) who preach the Resurrected Messiah who came to save us and bring us back to the Faith of our forefathers.
This passage that I have translated from the Greek Orthodox Church Text of the Gospel of Matthew confirms the purpose of the Messiah coming:
21 And having come out from there the one Yahushuo went back into the portions of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold a canaanite woman away from those regions there having come out screamed to him saying: “Be merciful on me, Lord, ben David: my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But he answered her not a word. Also having approached his disciples besought him saying: “Relieve her, because she screams after us.” 24 On top of this having been judged from away he answered: “I was not sent away except towards the sheep the completely lost away of the house of Israel.” 25 The moreover having returned back she bowed down to him saying: “Lord, come to my help.” 26 On top of this having been judged from away he answered: “It is not beautiful to seize the children’s bread and to fall to the little dogs.” 27 The moreover she answered: “Yes, Lord, also for the little dogs eat away from the crumbs those falling away from the table of their masters.” 28 At that time having been decided from away the one Yahushuo answered to her: “O woman, wonderful of you the persuasion! Let it be to you as you want.” And was healed her daughter away from that one moment. (Matthew, chap. 15)
The principal reason of the sending of the Messiah was the gathering of the Lost Tribes back to Israel in the greater Israel which goes from Euphrates to the Nile. That was a Promise from YHWH Himself. Please read the Prophets on this subject. This will be for the hand of YHWH is ordaining everything.
I love you all but we all have a mission to accomplish for the sake of the greater good. Debates are good. I hope we could better understand each others.
Todah!
I’ll just get this out of the way. No matter how strong the the argument I would never consider the following of any form of Xtianity.
That said, and considering your origin, is it safe to assume you are of Coptic Xtian belief. And That is all I know of that. If this is so then your outlook, I gather, is much much different than I would say the majority of Xtians now in Israel. I know the Rambam lived in Egypt for awhile but I don’t know what contacts he had with Coptics, or what type of Xtians he had contacts with. That could be an interesting analysis. I am aware that there are consistencies in different sects and also profound differences in those sects.
It is commendable that, as a Jew, you make the attempt to keep a proper Shabbat. It is probably much more difficult without the background of such observance. Given how much is written regarding this Mitzvah in Torah and the prophets it is supremely important to Hashem. Also, as a Jew, you have shown how there is a connection with Shabbat and the Jewish people. It’s something that the nations cannot experience the same as when a Jew observes it.
I wonder then, also, do you don Tefillin. This is something Reb Gutman has took on as a mission. He goes to the Kotel and finds Jews who have never, or rarely, put on Tefillin and suggests, rather earnestly, for them to do so and then has them pray for their families. The overwhelming change these people encounter and the joy is simply amazing.
Sharbano, thank you!
The Coptic brothers which I love very much are constantly persecuted by the Muslim in Egypt.but were also persecuted by the Roman and the Orthodox Greek Christians. They do not subscribe to the Roman way. Although I was born in Alexandria Egypt. I was from the Maronite sect of Christianity very close to Israel and pro-Israel with the use of Aramaic in our Liturgy. But you are right I share a lot with the Coptic Christian.
Concerning Tefilin I did it once with an Orthodox Rabbi in a plane going to Israel. I was 10 year younger. I even have a photography on my first Tefilin. But Tefilin for me is more a spiritual state were I have in my mind the dabarim elohim but it is true that we should do the external sign also according to
Deuteronomy 11:
18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
Thank you for remind me this mitzvah!
Shalom!
I agree with Sharbano here Lion, how is there a difference? Your own teacher says not to put new wine (innovative teaching) into an old wineskin (an established teaching,) lest you burst the skins, or sour the wine. He even says, sometimes the old is better. (Luke 5:39.)
It’s as though you are a business owner lion,. (let’s say you make shoes by the thousands in a top of the line new factory.) Your “stubborn” brethren who cling to the old methods, don’t have a new factory, but every pair of shoes they make is quality hand made, the first model, tried and true. You are teaching that the boss only wants the new mass produced better shoes, but honestly 100000000 crappy shoes will always be less valuable than 1 pair made right.
It IS interesting that whatever Xtianity teaches there IS an answer somewhere in Tanach to clarify the issue. Many have spoken about the evils of the “Traditions of men”. Well, as R’ Singer would say, How does G-d feel about traditions of men. From Yirmiyahu
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Go to the house of the Rechabites and speak with them, and I will bring them to the House of the Lord, to one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.
And I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habazziniah, and his brothers and all his sons and the entire house of the Rechabites.
And I brought them to the House of the Lord, to the chamber of the sons of Hanan the son of Igdaliah, the man of God, which is by the chamber of the princes, which is above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the vessels.
And I placed before the sons of the house of the Rechabites goblets full of wine, and cups, and I said to them, “Drink wine.”
And they said, “We will not drink wine, for Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, commanded us saying, “You shall not drink wine, you or your children forever.
And you shall not build a house, neither shall you sow nor shall you plant a vineyard, nor shall you have [any], but you shall dwell in tents all your days in order that you live many days on the face of the land where you dwell.
And we hearkened to the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, to all that he commanded us, not to drink wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, and our daughters.
And not to build houses for our dwelling, and not to have a vineyard, a field, or seed.
And we have dwelt in tents, and we have hearkened and done according to all that Jonadab our father has commanded us.
And it came to pass when Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon came up to the land, that we said, “Come and let us go to Jerusalem because of the army of the Chaldeans and because of the army of Aram, and we dwelt in Jerusalem.”
And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying:
So said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; Go and say to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem: Will you not receive instruction to hearken to My words? says the Lord.
The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, which he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed, and they have not drunk wine until this day for they hearkened to the commandment of their father, and I have spoken to you, speaking betimes, yet you have not hearkened to Me.
And I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, sending betimes, saying: Repent now, each man from his evil way and improve your deeds, and do not follow strange gods to worship them, and dwell on the soil that I have given you and your forefathers, but you did not incline your ear[s], and you did not hearken to Me.
For the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, that he commanded them, but this people has not hearkened to Me.
Therefore, so said the Lord God of Hosts, the God of Israel; Behold I am bringing upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have spoken concerning them, because I spoke to them but they did not obey, and I called to them, but they did not respond.
And to the house of the Rechabites, Jeremiah said: So said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; Because you have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and you have kept all his commandments and have done according to all that he commanded you,
Therefore, so said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; There shall not be cut off from Jonadab the son of Rechab a man standing before Me for all times.
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Clearly Hashem, or as it actually says, Dabar Hashem, sees an importance in Tradition, and where those Traditions are faithfully followed, generation to generation.
Don’t accuse people until you have been in their shoes.
Con I do not find the arguments brought up against Yahushuo a Yehudi satisfying.
Whether a point raised by us is satisfying to you or not has no bearing on the truth of the statements. Something can be true whether or not you like or agree with it lion. The thing is, We have brought you verses from the tanakh that have only been quoted by us, nothing more nothing less, and quoted in their immediate historical and literary context. We are just reading the text, and advocating that Jews follow the mitzvot in the plainest sense possible as derived from the text. Miracles, theological notions, etc. are all secondary to the following of those commandments.
I have explained (or tried to) why an incarnation teaching is not acceptable for Jews from the standpoint of the commandments in light of Deuteronomy 4. Its been explained that even if you could prove your view, the commandments would still matter more.
Con we can not take a passage of Scriptures an make it an absolute. I have showed you that even Mosheh did not observed it absolutely when he constructed the ark with the 2 Keroub (angels) on top. This mean that Deuteronomy must be interpreted in a context and accord with YHWH Elohim will.The body of evidence point to a Messiah Elohim sent by YHWH to save Israel. For Israel indeed was to be lost, scattered around the earth.and be brought back. Mosheh predicted all of this when He said that Elohim will send a prophet like him to lead us.
Our leader for the lost Israel is the Messiah of Israel Yahshuo. The Dabar Elohim took his flesh and made him a perfect sacrifice for the People and resurrected him and exalted him up high. He is the Lord sitting at the right hand of YHWH in psalm 110. In Psalm 118 he is the stone rejected having become the chief cornerstone of the new living temple.
Half the rabbis do not believe in a Messiah Elohim and half do think that the Messiah is Elohim (divine). Do we worship him in his Humanity? That is a good question. He himself always refers to YHWH Elohim and said Himself that we would worship the Elohim in spirit and truth therefore all Glory goes to YHWH the father Eternal Source of all through the Dabar Elohim incarnation in our flesh in the Ruah Holy.
But also YHWH do share his glory with his children elohim but do not share it with the rebels with the demon-idols. That is the view of the Torah and the Prophets. See Isaiah 60 and beyond:
1 Arise, shine! For he has come your light and glory YHWH over you has risen. 2 For behold the darkness shall cover a land and a heavy cloud peoples. And over you will rise YHWH and his glory over you will be seen. 3 And will come nations to your light and kings to your dawning splendor. (Isaiah 60 translated from the Hebrew)
Shalom!
Eliyahu I appreciate your changed tone – But I have another serious question for you. Where did you pick up this idea that “half the rabbis” believe that Messiah will be divine?
he probably read it in a chabad source somewhere rabbi, sorry for interjecting, but even I’ve seen those kind of sources in places.
Lion should know that “the rabbis” aren’t divided about the divinity of the messiah. There are a few crazy nuts out there who believe that; they are rejected even by Chabad. Every single Jewish group and denomination including non-Orthodox (such as Conservative and Reform) reject the notion of a divine messiah.
But it seems that once Lion gets an idea in his head, there is no swaying him. Don’t confuse him with the facts.
I don’t know of any Chabad source which says that.
Yisroel I have read and heard that the rabbis before the council of Jamnia subscribed to a vision of a divine Messiah based on the book of Enoch and the book of Daniel. Subsequently the rabbis were divided on the subject.
In our time the Lubavitch movement think that the rebbe is a divine messiah coming back. If they fell… it was based on this notion and ancient doctrine.
The Scriptural source here is Daniel 7:
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10
A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[b] was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
(NKJV)
Eliyahu You wrote “I have read” – and where did you read this pray tell? Those in Lubavitch who believe the rebbe is divine have been excoriated by all Jews loyal to God including those within Chabad – besides I ask you to consider – do you honestly think that these people came to this conclusion (that the rebbe is divine) on the basis of sober Scriptural study or was it their infatuation with the rebbe that produced their theology?
There is a point that is being overlooked here, that is the “You” directive. Just as G-d says to Moshe, the people “You” brought from Egypt. G-d says “I” brought your out of Egypt, that is the Israelites, but it was Moshe who brought Egyptians with him. Therefore when it says “you” shall not make these images it would have to mean, “You”, on your own, without any direction from G-d. Therefore building the ark with the K’ruvim are not a violation, but a sign to the people. Much like Gan Eden has two K’ruvim to guard the “Tree of Life” the Ark has two K’ruvim to guard the Torah, which also is called a tree of life.
Thank you Sharbano! Your explication if full of sense. I do subscribe to this view. Therefore we are agreeing.
A Parable
Two men went hiking together. The one behind suddenly called to the one who was in the lead that he had better stop if he did not wish to plunge headlong into the creek before him. The man in the lead looked about him, but he could see no creek.
“What are you talking about? I see nothing,” he said.
“Nevertheless, the creek is there,” said the other.
“And why can you see this, while I cannot?”
“Ah, I should have told you sooner. I am wearing a peculiar pair of spectacles that allows me to see things that other men cannot. In comparison to me, you are blind. However, I assure you that the creek is there.”
“Is this a joke of some sort?”
“I assure you it is not, and I have saved you from a great inconvenience.”
“And why can I not see these spectacles that you are supposed to be wearing?”
“These are invisible spectacles, a gift.”
“May I handle them? Will you allow me to look through them?”
“I am afraid that is not possible. Either you have your own set of spectacles, as I have been blessed with, or you do not.”
“I do not believe you.”
“That is because you are an arrogant fool, a buffoon! I can hardly believe that you would doubt me this way! I have never been so insulted. Obviously, if you had my superior vision, you would know the truth of what I have said. But you are such an ignoramus, you do not yield to one who has been granted better vision than you have.”
“I did not come here to quarrel. You must admit that your claim is rather fantastic. Surely, if I cannot use your glasses, I may at least feel them.”
“It is impossible, I tell you.”
“Well, then, let us examine the evidence we have before us. You say that there is a creek before me, but when I look at the ground, I see a path from those who have come before. I see no ravine through which the creek would run. Instead, the ground rises here. Moreover, I cannot hear even the slightest hint of running water.”
“What a simpleton you are! Do you think that these feeble proofs can convince one who has donned such magnificent spectacles? How great is your arrogance! You rely upon your limited intelligence, but I rely upon that which you cannot even perceive.”
“Well and good, but why should I believe you. You claim to have spectacles invisible to myself that grant you powers beyond mine. Offer some demonstration, so that I may overcome what seems to me to be more than a reasonable level of doubt.”
“The evidence is at your feet, but you have been too dull to notice. Have you not noticed how soft the ground is, how wet? Why else would the ground be so wet, if not for the fact that you are in a creek bed?”
“Surely you are pulling my leg. It rained last night, quite heavily. Did you not hear it beating upon our tent? Or do your spectacles dull your other senses?”
“Oh, so now you mock me, but it is you who are the fool. Look how you twist the facts to suit your theory. If you had the least amount of humility you would concede your error. Instead you ask for proofs and then ignore them.”
“What proof? You expect me to deny the evidence of my senses and take your word for it that you have a special insight. The proof you bring is no proof at all, for the ground may be wet from many causes other than a creek. Moreover, I heard that other cause, for it interrupted my sleep. I am going on. You may do as you choose, but I warn you: I will suffer no more abuse from your tongue. Either offer me substantive proof of your spectacles, or continue on with me civilly.”
“I cannot travel with such a fool. Good day to you.”
So the man who saw no creek continued his ascent, while his friend with the spectacles turned back.
(A note: This parable is not intended to mock, but to illustrate.)
Jim
Jim interesting story. But tell me Adam and Hawah were kick out of Paradise and the entrance to the Garden was guarded by two Keroub. Adam saw this but why can we see the 2 Keroub and the entrance to the Garden Paradise like Adam did?
Also why Prophets like Ezekiel, Daniel had visions and saw thing that others could not see?
Forgive me for inserting myself, but the visions that the prophets had did not contradict the Torah and common sense; furthermore, the prophets were expected to offer solid proof of their credentials as prophets in order to be accepted as such by the people.
A prophet who contradicted the Law of Moses in any way was booted out as a false prophet. A prophet with no credentials or who offered signs that did not come to pass was booted out as a false prophet. No one accepted a prophet on his own say-so.
Dina just take Jeremiah. He was not accepted by the establishment and was persecuted. They thought he was a Babylonian agent.
Look at Eliyahu against the king of Israel Achab. He was persecuted badly.
Your view does not match totally the Tanakh.
Eliyahu Do you seriously believe that Jeremiah and Elijah did not have to prove themselves before being accepted as prophets? Do you not recognize that in Deuteronomy 13 God explicitly commands us to reject claimants to prophecy (such as yourself) that speak in the name of a god that we are not familiar with? Do you really believe that if anyone comes along and claims to be inspired by the ruach that we should listen to that person?
Lion, you are diverting attention again. It would be helpful if you would address my points directly. Thank you.
Dear Yisroel, of course not but we should test him and see if his ruah is from the Elohim.
A prophet that will divert Israel from YHWH Elohim is not from YHWH
A prophet that is accepted by all at first … sounds fishy:
Mosheh had to prove himself and even with that people rebelled against him
Jeremiah was not accepted by the establishment for his message did not fit the view of the time subsequently he was accepted when his words were proven
Yahushuo was a stepping stone. But he was more than a prophet being also the Messiah of Israel and the lord of whom it is said : sit at my right hand till I make of your ennemies the footstool of your feet…(Psalm110)
For Islam Mohammed is their prophet… for Christianity it is the Messiah Himself… For Judaism it is(was) Mosheh
What gives Yahushuo authenticity to his Message and prove his Message is the Resurrection to whom He appeared to many disciples (70) and 12 Apostles not counting the women…
When Eliyah will come He will have to prove his claim to have been sent by the Elohim. That is the job of the Elders to test him. But his mission will be controversial being a mission of reuniting all Israel and building bridges. It is only in his Resurrection the sign of Yonas that His words will be proven. He will be accompanied by a Levite the prophet foreseen by Mosheh that will be like him for it is written:
15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’
17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
“A prophet that is accepted by all at first … sounds fishy.”
You added the words “by all.” No one here has said that the test of the prophet is that he is accepted, whether by some or by all.
The one thing, in all that you say, is you have to “Believe” that J’sus is Mashiach that is expected. There is No evidence in scripture that insinuates Mashiach would appear over 2000 years before the end of days. All indications are that he will come at the end of days.
We do have a test to see if J’sus words were accurate. He specifically stated that the generation standing in front of him would not die before the kingdom would be established. This, surely did not happen. By that account he should be considered a false prophet, according to Torah.
Lion,
I do not deny prophecy. But, private revelation and appeals to a ruah leave no room for discussion when evidence is not presented. A man comes to me and says that he has a message from God for me; I am under no obligation to take his word for it. He must offer me some proof. Consider this carefully: without proof, one is unable to tell the difference between a true prophet and charlatan.
So, when a Christian comes here claiming knowledge from the ruah on how to interpret the scriptures, I am under no obligation to believe him. If he can show me from scripture that his interpretation is correct, then I have good reason to accept his interpretation. But when he appeals to a ruah that I do not have and then roundly abuses me for not listening to him, he is being unreasonable. He knows that I do not have access to the same special information that he does.
Often the Christian brings an argument from scripture, based on a ‘riddle’. Like the man who points to the wet ground, he argues that there is only one possible interpretation. When he is shown that there is another interpretation, he falls back on his ruah, a gift that he has never established. If only others could see what he sees, then they would know the truth of his claims. This is unreasonable.
Your understanding of Jeremiah is deficient. You argue that since people did not listen to Jeremiah, any time they do not listen to one who claims prophecy, they are making the same error. But there are many false prophets, to whom one should not incline his ear. Joseph Smith could have made the same argument that you have made. He could say that anyone who does not listen to him would not have listened to Jeremiah. And so could Jim Jones and the many other frauds to have come along throughout history.
It is clear then that one cannot accept the claim of every false prophet and false messiah that comes along. He must be offered proof. In fact, Torah demands that a prophet be tested. The fact that Christian prophets refuse to subject themselves to proof is enough to prove they are not true prophets. If they were true prophets, they would give evidence of their gift. Because they know that they have nothing to fear, having truth and God on their side, they would volunteer being tested.
And now let us consider another problem. Let us say that I claim to be a prophet, that the ruah tells me things. (I do not make this claim. It is hypothetical.) I come to you and tell you that God has given me a revelation that the ruah you have been listening to is not the ruah of God. The devil has tricked you. Do not worry, however, because you can rely upon me. And now I will tell you that you should really worship this tree in Horace’s backyard. You were never meant to worship a man.
I, of course, will bring scriptural proofs from ‘riddles’ and ‘shadows’. These will not appear correct to you, but then you are supposed to have a false ruah, deceiving you. Theoretically, your judgment is no longer sound. And you do not wish to make the same mistake as those who did not listen to Jeremiah. You have no way of knowing whether or not I am right. If you listen to your ruah, it may be lying to you, although it does tell you I am wrong. But by your own arguments, you are obligated to follow me.
I do not think that you will throw everything over. And yet the Christian does expect people to throw everything over on nothing more than his say-so. His claim to a private revelation, which he need not verify, is sufficient in his mind to demand the attention of others. But this cannot be. Obviously, we cannot listen to just everyone who comes along claiming to have heard from God or a god or gods. We must test it.
And until it is tested, the claim to ruah leaves us no common ground for communication. Let us assume that a ‘prophet’ has heard from God. Because we do not share access to the same information, and I have no proof that he gets his information from God, I cannot be obligated to listen to him. This is true, even if he really heard from God, because I have no access to that knowledge. And as long as he appeals to a superior source of knowledge, which he refuses to demonstrate, we have no way of communicating. We will only be able to communicate when he either submits to demonstrating his revelation, or when he ceases appealing to his revelation and only appeals to the common ground of observable fact before us.
Jim
I have showed you that even Mosheh did not observed it absolutely when he constructed the ark with the 2 Keroub (angels) on top.
Lion, the Ark of the covenant and the Cherubim ARE NOT G-d, THEY DO NOT CONSTITUTE A VIOLATION OF DEUTERONOMY 4, BECAUSE THEY Aren’t IMAGES OF G-d, ARE NOT PRAYED TO, ARE NOT WORSHIPED.
Deuteronomy 4:12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of ANY SHAPE, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
The Ark and Cherubim are not an image of G-D lion, Jews do not worship them as G-d. DEUTERONOMY 4 SAYS G-D HAS NO IMAGE/FORM, AND ALSO SAYS NOT TO BOW DOWN TO OR WORSHIP THE HOST OF HEAVEN (that is the angels.)
Con you are spinning it. Sharbano explication is the right one. If YHWH commands Mosheh obeyed. That is all there is to it. The prohibition is not an absolute. The prohibition is without mercy against demons-idols and the punishments is severe therefore.
You are overlooking an important fact Lion, and that is that idols can be made of things that even G-d has commanded, sanctified with his spirit, and seen as holy. The brass serpent illustrates this.
It was destroyed, along with the high places, (according to 2 kings) because people promoted the brass serpent as an intermediary, a necessary go between between man and G-d. A person who would pray to the burning bush as an intermediary would be guilty of the same idolatry. It doesn’t matter if G-d’s spirit or voice was manifest through the object, it cant be served, only the father can be according to the Torah. That is why Christianity is declared idolatrous.
Con Christianity can not be accused to be idolatrous for they believe in One Elohim.
If you take the Roman catholic form it could be debated and I would understand your affirmation. But the Apostolic Orthodox view is not idolatry for who adores and worship in One Elohim YHWH Elohei Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov is not idolatrous, only those who worship demon-idols or elements of creation or any creature by itself.
Lion,
It is not worshipping a creature by itself that is forbidden. It is worshipping a creature at all, whether by itself or with God.
Jim
Lion,
I should also note that saying that one believes in the One God of the Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob does not make it so. When one rewrites the conception of that God, then one clearly does not believe in the same God. Calling three “one” does not make the three one. These are mere words that hold no meaning. Because of their nonsensical nature, one can affirm them with his tongue but not his mind.
If I say that I love France, known for its haggis, bagpipes, and highlands, you have good reason to suspect that it is not France to which I am referring. The word is less important than the definition.
Jim
Lion, God told us exactly Whom to worship at Sinai. You need to read Deuteronomy 4 again and more carefully. God did not say we should worship the part of him that he will send in human form. In fact, God says we are to NEVER associate Him with ANY form WHATSOEVER. That includes also the form of Jesus.
We are to worship God only as He revealed Himself to us at Sinai–this is the lesson of Deuteronomy 4. God did not teach us about Jesus at Sinai; therefore it is absolutely forbidden to worship him.
Dina, JIm: resolve then for the benefit of all Genesis 1 v.26:
26 Then Elohim said, “Let Us make Adam in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Are you kidding? You received answers on this one a bunch of times.
You were told that it is the plural of majesty, that God is teaching us humility by consulting with the angels, that the verses always use singular verb. You were also told that this is irrelevant to Deuteronomy 4, that even if God appeared in human form a million times in the Bible it is still categorically forbidden to worship Him by associating Him with ANY form WHATSOEVER.
You are the one who needs to the resolving here.
We have “free-will” and we have an “intellect”. Both of these are qualities G-d has, whereas angels have no free will. This is an excerpt from the Rambam’s Guide to the Perplexed.
Some have been of opinion that by the Hebrew tselem, the shape and figure of a thing is to be understood, and this explanation led men to believe in the corporeality [of the Divine Being]: for they thought that the words “Let us make man in our tselem” (Gen. i. 26), implied that God had the form of a human being, i.e., that He had figure and shape, and that, consequently, He was corporeal. They adhered faithfully to this view, and thought that if they were to relinquish it they would eo ipso reject the truth of the Bible: and further, if they did not conceive God as having a body possessed of face and limbs, similar to their own in appearance, they would have to deny even the existence of God. The sole difference which they admitted, was that He excelled in greatness and splendour, and that His substance was not flesh and blood. Thus far went their conception of the greatness and glory of God. The incorporeality of the Divine Being, and His unity, in the true sense of the word–for there is no real unity without incorporeality–will be fully proved in the course of the present treatise. (Part II., ch. i.) In this chapter it is our sole intention to explain the meaning of the words tselem and demut. I hold that the Hebrew equivalent of “form” in the ordinary acceptation of the word, viz., the figure and shape of a thing, is toär. Thus we find “[And Joseph was] beautiful in toär (‘form’), and beautiful in appearance” (Gen. xxxix. 6): “What form (toär) is he of?” (1 Sam. xxviii. 14): “As the form (toär) of the children of a king” (Judges viii. 18). It is also applied to form produced by human labour, as “He marketh its form (toär) with a line,” “and he marketh its form (toär) with the compass” (Isa. xliv. 13). This term is not at all applicable to God. The term tselem , on the other hand, signifies the specific form, viz., that which constitutes the essence of a thing, whereby the thing is what it is; the reality of a thing in so far as it is that particular being. In man the “form” is that constituent which gives him human perception: and on account of this intellectual perception the term tselem is employed in the sentences “In the tselem of God he created him” (Gen. i. 27). It is therefore rightly said, “Thou despisest their tselem ” (Ps. lxiii. 20); the “contempt” can only concern the soul–the specific form of man, not the properties and shape of his body. I am also of opinion that the reason why this term is used for “idols” may be found in the circumstance that they are worshipped on account of some idea represented by them, not on account of their figure and shape. For the same reason the term is used in the expression, “the forms (tsalme) of your emerods” (1 Sam. vi. 5), for the chief object was the removal of the injury caused by the emerods, not a change of their shape. As, however, it must be admitted that the term tselem is employed in these two cases, viz. “the images of the emerods” and “the idols” on account of the external shape, the term tselem is either a homonym or a hybrid term, and would denote both the specific form and the outward shape, and similar properties relating to the dimensions and the shape of material bodies; and in the phrase “Let us make man in our tselem ” (Gen. i. 26), the term signifies “the specific form” of man, viz., his intellectual perception, and does not refer to his “figure” or “shape.” Thus we have shown the difference between tselem and toär, and explained the meaning of tselem .
Demut is derived from the verb damah, “he is like.” This term likewise denotes agreement with regard to some abstract relation: comp. “I am like a pelican of the wilderness” (Ps. cii. 7); the author does not compare himself to the pelican in point of wings and feathers, but in point of sadness.” Nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in beauty” (Ezek. 8); the comparison refers to the idea of beauty. “Their poison is like the poison of a serpent” (Ps. lviii. 5); “He is like unto a lion” (Ps. xvii. 12); the resemblance indicated in these passages does not refer to the figure and shape, but to some abstract idea. In the same manner is used “the likeness of the throne” (Ezek. i. 26); the comparison is made with regard to greatness and glory, not, as many believe, with regard to its square form, its breadth, or the length of its legs: this explanation applies also to the phrase “the likeness of the chayyot (“living creatures,” Ezek. i. 13).
As man’s distinction consists in a property which no other creature on earth possesses, viz., intellectual perception, in the exercise of which he does not employ his senses, nor move his hand or his foot, this perception has been compared–though only apparently, not in truth–to the Divine perception, which requires no corporeal organ. On this account, i.e., on account of the Divine intellect with which man has been endowed, he is said to have been made in the form and likeness of the Almighty, but far from it be the notion that the Supreme Being is corporeal, having a material form.
Some years ago a learned man asked me a question of great importance; the problem and the solution which we gave in our reply deserve the closest attention. Before, however, entering upon this problem and its solution I must premise that every Hebrew knows that the term Elohim is a homonym, and denotes God, angels, judges, and the rulers of countries, and that Onkelos the proselyte explained it in the true and correct manner by taking Elohim in the sentence, “and ye shall be like Elohim” (Gen. iii. 5) in the last-mentioned meaning, and rendering the sentence “and ye shall be like princes.” Having pointed out the homonymity of the term “Elohim” we return to the question under consideration. “It would at first sight,” said the objector, “appear from Scripture that man was originally intended to be perfectly equal to the rest of the animal creation, which is not endowed with intellect, reason, or power of distinguishing between good and evil: but that Adam’s disobedience to the command of God procured him that great perfection which is the peculiarity of man, viz., the power of distinguishing between good and evil-the noblest of all the faculties of our nature, the essential characteristic of the human race. It thus appears strange that the punishment for rebelliousness should be the means of elevating man to a pinnacle of perfection to which he had not attained previously. This is equivalent to saying that a certain man was rebellious and extremely wicked, wherefore his nature was changed for the better, and he was made to shine as a star in the heavens.” Such was the purport and subject of the question, though not in the exact words of the inquirer. Now mark our reply, which was as follows:–“You appear to have studied the matter superficially, and nevertheless you imagine that you can understand a book which has been the guide of past and present generations, when you for a moment withdraw from your lusts and appetites, and glance over its contents as if you were reading a historical work or some poetical composition. Collect your thoughts and examine the matter carefully, for it is not to be understood as you at first sight think, but as you will find after due deliberation; namely, the intellect which was granted to man as the highest endowment, was bestowed on him before his disobedience. With reference to this gift the Bible states that “man was created in the form and likeness of God.” On account of this gift of intellect man was addressed by God, and received His commandments, as it is said: “And the Lord God commanded Adam” (Gen. ii. 16)–for no commandments are given to the brute creation or to those who are devoid of understanding. Through the intellect man distinguishes between the true and the false. This faculty Adam possessed perfectly and completely. The right and the wrong are terms employed in the science of apparent truths (morals), not in that of necessary truths, as, e.g., it is not correct to say, in reference to the proposition “the heavens are spherical,” it is “good” or to declare the assertion that “the earth is flat” to be “bad”: but we say of the one it is true, of the other it is false. Similarly our language expresses the idea of true and false by the terms emet and sheker, of the morally right and the morally wrong, by tov and ra’. Thus it is the function of the intellect to discriminate between the true and the false–a distinction which is applicable to all objects of intellectual perception. When Adam was yet in a state of innocence, and was guided solely by reflection and reason–on account of which it is said: “Thou hast made him (man) little lower than the angels” (Ps. viii. 6)–he was not at all able to follow or to understand the principles of apparent truths; the most manifest impropriety, viz., to appear in a state of nudity, was nothing unbecoming according to his idea: he could not comprehend why it should be so. After man’s disobedience, however, when he began to give way to desires which had their source in his imagination and to the gratification of his bodily appetites, as it is said, “And the wife saw that the tree was good for food and delightful to the eyes” (Gen. iii. 6), he was punished by the loss of part of that intellectual faculty which he had previously possessed. He therefore transgressed a command with which he had been charged on the score of his reason; and having obtained a knowledge of the apparent truths, he was wholly absorbed in the study of what is proper and what improper. Then he fully understood the magnitude of the loss he had sustained, what he had forfeited, and in what situation he was thereby placed. Hence we read, “And ye shall be like elohim, knowing good and evil,” and not “knowing” or “discerning the true and the false”: while in necessary truths we can only apply the words “true and false,” not “good and evil.” Further observe the passage, “And the eyes of both were opened, and they knew they were naked” (Gen. iii. 7): it is not said, “And the eyes of both were opened, and they saw”; for what the man had seen previously and what he saw after this circumstance was precisely the same: there had been no blindness which was now removed, but he received a new faculty whereby he found things wrong which previously he had not regarded as wrong. Besides, you must know that the Hebrew word paka? used in this passage is exclusively employed in the figurative sense of receiving new sources of knowledge, not in that of regaining the sense of sight. Comp., “God opened her eyes” (Gen. xxi. 19). “Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened” (Isaiah xxxviii. 8). “Open ears, he heareth not” (ibid. Xlii. 20), similar in sense to the verse, “Which have eyes to see, and see not” (Ezek. xii. 2). When, however, Scripture says of Adam, “He changed his face (panav) and thou sentest him forth” Job xiv. 20), it must be understood in the following way: On account of the change of his original aim he was sent away. For panim, the Hebrew equivalent of face, is derived from the verb panah, “he turned,” and signifies also “aim,” because man generally turns his face towards the thing he desires. In accordance with this interpretation, our text suggests that Adam, as he altered his intention and directed his thoughts to the acquisition of what he was forbidden, he was banished from Paradise: this was his punishment; it was measure for measure. At first he had the privilege of tasting pleasure and happiness, and of enjoying repose and security; but as his appetites grew stronger, and he followed his desires and impulses, (as we have already stated above), and partook of the food he was forbidden to taste, he was deprived of everything, was doomed to subsist on the meanest kind of food, such as he never tasted before, and this even only after exertion and labour, as it is said, “Thorns and thistles shall grow up for thee” (Gen. iii. 18), “By the sweat of thy brow,” etc., and in explanation of this the text continues, “And the Lord God drove him from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground whence he was taken.” He was now with respect to food and many other requirements brought to the level of the lower animals: comp., “Thou shalt eat the grass of the field” (Gen. iii. 18). Reflecting on his condition, the Psalmist says, “Adam unable to dwell in dignity, was brought to the level of the dumb beast” (Ps. xlix. 13).” May the Almighty be praised, whose design and wisdom cannot be fathomed.”
Dina your interpretation is a spinning off of the clear sacred word. Your interpretation is your way to make your false doctrine work. All Tanakh is a proclamation that Elohim is One meaning that the Plural is One for Elohim is a plural always ONE in action and word. The Elohim is not Alone with Himself that is the god of the Muslim. True Judaism and True Christianity are on the right side here.
I know the Elohim, do you??
YHWH ELOHIM the father is the Source of All but to deny his Holy Communion with His DABAR and RUAH is contra Torah and Tanakh. The love of Eloah make us also elohim through grace to be trully what we were called for which is to be sons and daughters of EL-ELYON. That is the Promise our destiny, yours to accept yours to refuse. I believe in the Promise of Elohei Israel!! Ameen!
Lion, we have shown you clear Scriptural passages that proclaim the opposite of what you say here, that declare unequivocally and unambiguously that Hashem is one and alone.
Find me one verse that teaches clearly what you are saying. No hints, please.
You ask me if I know Hashem. I do not understand your question. Do you mean to ask if I understand Hashem’s nature? No one can understand His nature. Do you mean to ask if I have a personal relationship with Hashem? That I surely do, and I am very grateful for it.
But one thing I can say for sure: I know who Hashem is not. Hashem is not anyone who did not reveal himself at Sinai or who can be associated with any form. Hashem is not Jesus.
You do not know Hashem. You worship gods that our fathers did not know.
Hi Sharbano,
You wrote:
We have “free-will” and we have an “intellect”. Both of these are qualities G-d has, whereas angels have no free will.
My response:
Do you base that on scripture or something else?
What is your analysis on the following:
Case #1
Whoever it was of the host of heaven who presented the plan to God to entice Ahab by means of a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets seems to have thought of the whole scheme through his own free will and intellect. And he then decided to present his unique plan to God after the other plans were presented and apparently rejected. This particular spirit appears to have stood, boldly and uniquely before the YHWH and audaciously claimed simply that he would “persuade/entice him” even before presenting the particulars of his plan.
Citation:
JPS
1 kings
22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
2 Chronicles
18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
Case #2 Job chapter 2
In the book of Job the YHWH praised Job before the Accuser saying, “…There is no one like him on earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil.”
The Accuser could have responded with anything including words to the effect of, “Yes God you are so right, and all wise, Job is as you say; and who am I, as an inferior created being, to doubt you or challenge your wisdom.”
But, exercising his apparent free will, the Accuser instead responded with, “Does Job fear God for nothing?”
Case #3
In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:17 – 21), It appears that the angel made an on the scene free will decision to allow Lot to escape to the little city instead of running all the way to the hills.
The angels instructed Lot and his family to “flee to the hills.” But Lot pleaded with the angels to let him escape instead to a little city.”
The angel responded, “Very well, I grant you this favor too, and will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Hurry, escape there, for I can do nothing until you arrive there.”
It certainly seems like the angel under his own authority and free will, decided to change the original plan based on Lot’s request. It’s very possible that the instruction from God was that Lot be saved, and the exact location to achieve that goal was left up to the angel to decide.
I specifically referenced angels.
As far as the S’tan, he IS doing G-d’s will, as his name signifies. Don’t be confused that lack of free-will means lack of capacity or intellect. Basically he is doing his job, what he was created for. The angels are each given a job and although they are at a higher level they have the capacity to do what is necessary to accomplish that.
It can be looked at this way. If a man could actually “see” what G-d is doing in his creation, if he has that sight, he wouldn’t have “free-will” as it were. For example, a man, in his right mind, would not deliberately walk into a fire. He “Knows” the result. It is somewhat the way with angels. They are on a level that they “know” G-d and realize what is going on, so to speak. Of course, the higher the level of angel the more they see His ‘power’, as it were. Even at the highest level they still aren’t at a place where they would perceive His existence. The angels that generally interact with men are at that lowest level, barely above us and we, mankind, are unable to perceive any part of His existence. We can only see the effect.
Lion,
It is clear from Dan. 7 that the “one like a son of man” is not a divine being.
Jim
Lion,
Let us accept the premise that not all of God commandments are absolute. Does that mean that none of them are absolute?
Consider, if you make a golden statue of Zeus and erect it in your backyard upon an altar, and you offer a sacrifice to it and call out, “O Zeus, please accept this sacrifice and grant me your favor,” will you have sinned or not? And, how do you know?
Let us say that you hold it is a sin. Then someone will come to you and say, “You are making absolutes out of the commandments of God. Do you not know that God allowed for graven images even in His holy temple?” Since there are no absolutes, will you tell him that this act is absolutely forbidden? But that is against your argument.
Let us say that you hold it is not–but you will not say that. If you were to say that it is not a sin to worship an idol, then you are destroying the entire Torah. You make entirely vain and meaningless. We see then that there are absolutes; it is only a question of what they are.
Let us digress and consider Noah for a moment. He was told to take two of each animal into the ark. Then, separately, he was told to bring seven of each kosher animal. So God gave Noah an exception to the rule. Now, should Noah bring on seven lions? By your logic, yes, because even though they are not kosher animals, the exception in the one area implies an exception in every other area. This is how you have treated the cherubim on the ark. You have implied that because this one exception exists, then no hard and fast rules exist. Anything goes. But clearly you do not mean to open the door to everything.
It is clear that Torah has outlined the limitations of human behavior. He allows this, but not that. One may kill in self-defense; one may not murder. A Jew may eat a cow; he may not eat a pig. The question is what are the limitations on worship.
You will note that one is not to worship the cherubim. In fact, they are oriented toward the center of the ark, which holds the commandments of God. You will also note, that they are not considered representations of God. Deuteronomy 4 prohibits, indeed, absolutely prohibits, the association of God with any form. It is directly spelled out that at Horeb Israel saw no form and that they should know by this not to associate him with any form. No exception is offered to this rule, and you must not take license to invent one from an exception to making graven images.
In fact, this law is so firm that it is mentioned twice in the same chapter that God is alone. This is the testimony of the Jewish people and the very purpose for which they were created. God does nothing in vain. He did not set up a people to testify to the world this that He had no form and that there is none beside Him for no reason.
This law is so firm that it is part of the test of a prophet. As indicated in Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet comes to the people working wonders, but he teaches a God the Jewish people did not know, they are not to heed his voice. He is, in fact, to be killed. This test allows for no exception. Otherwise the test is meaningless. But it illustrates also the absolute nature of the command to worship none other than HaShem, not Jesus, not Zeus, not Horace’s Tree. Only HaShem may be worshipped. If there were an exception, it would have to have been related clearly in Torah so that no true prophet preaching “a god you did not know” would be killed. But this exception is not given. That being the case, there can be no instance of someone preaching “a god you did not know” that will be acceptable. That no other god should be worshipped in tandem with God is indeed absolute.
Jim
Jim I understand all your points. But are giving intentions that I do not subscribe. All demon-idols or element of creation or any creature by itself can not and must not be worshiped. That is Torah!
But you are presuming that the Messiah is not Elohim sent by YHWH Elohim. Their lies your error. All the Scriptures that I have cited point to a Divine Messiah. That you do not believe it after the Second Temple destruction that is another debate. But the fact is the People will be submitted to Him and his Dominion look only at Psalm 110:
A Psalm of David.
110 The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2
The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3
Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4
The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5
The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6
He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7
He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.
Lion,
Thank you for ceding to me the argument regarding the ark and the malleabitlity of the commandments. Now you have introduced a new argument. Let us take up that, then.
You write: “All demon-idols or element of creation or any creature by itself can not and must not be worshiped. That is Torah!”
This is not quite Torah, actually. You have by accident altered the commandment, which illustrates to us the importance of studying them. You have added the words “by itself”. This is not Torah.
Please reflect upon the importance of not changing the Torah. This small addition of yours grants license to that which is forbidden. But, “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor shall you subtract from it, to observe the commandments of HaShem, your God, that I command you” (Deut. 4.2).
In this same chapter of Deuteronomy, when Moshe warns the people of the corruption, of making idols or worshipping the heavenly bodies, he does not allow worship of these at all. It is not that they may not be worshipped by themselves, only alongside God. They may not be worshipped at all, with no exception listed. Moreover, it is prohibited to worship other gods in tandem with god, as is expressed in in the second statement of the decalogue.
Consider also that the northern tribes worshipped Baal, but not Baal alone. Elijah asks them something like how long they will limp between the God of Israel and Baal. The prohibition is not that they may not worship Baal alone. It is that they may not worship Baal at all.
Similarly, a woman may not take another man to bed with her husband. She is not allowed adultery in an instance where her husband is a willing participant. In many ways, this is a more disgusting form of adultery than the first. So, too, worshipping a creature in tandem with God is prohibited, not just worshipping it “by itself”.
Jim
Jim very powerful argument. Which I subscribe totally but I have three points:
1) Why in the Tanakh people bow down to the king or why Mosheh bow down to his step father… I will not talk about Abraham for he just got out of pagan culture bowing down to people… We should not bow down to any man or king … it introduces confusion to many…
2) You did not touch the fact that I said: “But you are presuming that the Messiah is not Elohim sent by YHWH Elohim. Their lies your error.”
3) How do you interpret Psalm 110 in this context?
Lion,
Answering your three points:
1. It has been already answered why people bowed down to others. It is a sign of respect. In the modern era, this is not so widely accepted a practice. Similarly, people today seldom rise before their elders. It has fallen out of custom. You write that no one should bown down to any man or king. This is not a law of the Torah. Worship is prohibited, but not bowing to men under the right circumstances. “Do not add…” But this is not relevant to the discussion.
2. I did not address this statement, because it is a mistake, and I did not feel it worth pointing out to you that I have not presumed anything of the sort. The Torah tells us specifically that God is alone; there is none besides Him. This is not a presumption. It is Torah that tells us not to worship any God other than that known by the Jewish people and links their knowledge to the Sinai event. Note again, that you must rely upon hints, shadows, and riddles. Would you consider that it is perhaps you who has presumed?
3. I will not recontextualize the psalm to see if I can fit it to my or someone else’s preconceived notions. I will do my best to read it in its own context and consider it on its own grounds. It would be wrong to accept a divine Messiah as a possibility and then read Torah to see if I can see such a thing in the text. I addressed this idea in “Bad Methodology” on this page yesterday or the day before.
Jim
With all this about bowing is there something in the Xtian text that speaks to this.
If we’re talking about what is written in Shemot about not bowing down before idols there is no difficulty here. Clearly one does not bow before idols. One is not even to speak the name of the idols. Tractate Avodah Zarah deals with this. You must not bend down to even pick up a coin in front of a statue or place of idol worship as it may appear to be worshiping or [giving honor] to that idol. I see no difficulty here. When Isaac ( who was one of few who never sinned) blessed Jacob is speaks of bowing, people will serve him and nations will bow to you, your mother’s sons will bow down to you. The only time Torah speaks of this as a violation is ONLY in the context of idol worship, nothing else.
Sharbano In two instances in the New Testament here is the rule:
Peter stop a disciple of the Messiah to bow down to him. Acts 10:
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshipped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Another place an angel stop Yohan to bow down to him. Apocalypse 22:
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
There is a difference between “bow” and “worship.”
If he was “worshiping” Peter then, certainly we’re talking idolatry here.
In each of those cases we have the person being bowed to who admits he doesn’t have the stature that warrants it. If one is in the presence of a King then this changes, as that person DOES have the stature to warrant such action.
Lion,
Regarding your proofs that the Messiah is divine, I have seen no evidence of that. In fact, it requires quite a bit of speculation in many of the passages you cite. For example, your most relied upon Gen. 1.26 does not mention a messiah at all. Even if we were to understand that God was a multi-person godhead, we would not know that the Messiah was part of the godhead. That would be mere speculation on your part. But let us turn our attention to the current passage.
You say that Psalm 110 indicates that the Messiah is divine. I assert the opposite. So, let us examine the verses you have quoted. For the sake of ease, I will assume with you that Ps. 110 is about the Messiah.
What qualities does this Messiah have? I think you will note that he relies upon God. God will make his enemies a footstool. God grants him authority (v.2). It is God’s strength that crushes king (v. 5).
Now, we know that God relies upon no one. He is the One upon whom all others rely. He gains no strength nor authority from others. He does not wait upon another to crush his enemies.
So, what we see, is the the Messiah is not God. He relies upon God. He trusts in God. He is appointed by God to special purposes. This psalm does not attribute to him divinity at all. In fact, if this psalm is about the Messiah, it draws clear distinctions between God and the Messiah.
Jim
Jim here you failed to see that THE LORD in Hebrew text is YHWH
YHWH says: “Sit at My right hand” Just this command means a lot. Who can dare to sit at the right Hand of YHWH?
No man , No angel, No anyone… That is the proof that this lord(Messiah) is Elohim (Divine).
Lion,
Much imagery is employed in the psalms. When David writes that the Torah is a light upon his path, he does not mean that he lights a Torah scroll upon fire and uses it to illuminate his steps in the dark. Torah describes God with wings carrying Israel upon His back. To reiterate your question: “Who can dare ride on God’s back?” No one. It’s a metaphor.
Of course, I know that “THE LORD” is HaShem. But this is a psalm. It relies upon imagery. It does not mean that the Messiah will be sitting next to God literally. Sitting on the king’s right hand is a favored position. The Messiah will have God’s favor. That is all that is meant. And the rest of the psalm illustrates how the Messiah has God’s favor, which I have explained.
Jim
This is taking it just a bit too far. Certainly you are aware that Tanach if replete with metaphorical language.
Surely you don’t believe G-d is made of fire. Does anyone actually believe that G-d has an actual physical place, i.e., a throne that he physically sits in. We see images that gods like Zeus has a physical throne but Our G-d is a G-d of gods. He leaves the physical thrones to the gods.
How can God sit at His own right hand? If God is one, He wouldn’t divide Himself and then send His parts out to do things. Also, how does it make sense for God to promise Himself things? If you believe this separate entity sits at God’s right hand and goes out and crushes enemies for God, and you believe God is the one sitting at God’s right hand, then you believe in two gods.
It’s just logic, mon ami.
Dina you did not understand that this lord sit at the right hand of YHWH refers to the Man Messiah who is lord being exalted to the highest position in the heavens that confers him the rank of elohim one with the DABAR ELOHIM the Right Hand of YHWH
Eliyahu Would you say that a mere human can sit upon God’s throne?
And you did not understand, O Lion, that if the “man Messiah” is sitting at God’s right hand and has had God’s “rank” conferred upon him, then your conception of God includes two deities. And that, mon cher ami, is idolatry plain and simple.
This sounds counterintuitive. First you say you believe in One Elokim. Yet for one to stipulate that Mashiach is a divine being that is contradictory to the One. We have two entities.
Tehillim 110 says nothing about a “divine messiah”. That would have to be read with eisegesis. The words you used there are the same as what J’sus said according to every translation I have seen. But it does NOT say that. It says. “To David,Hashem said to my master”. Considering this was to be sung by the Temple priests it is worded as They say it.
Lion,
I know that when you present the argument for Jesus’ authority from the resurrection and the witnesses, this is not your point, and I, if I have time will answer that point later today. But I note that you do not count the women in the 70 disciples and 12 apostles. In your speculative answer to Sharbano about the 70 in his speech, you argued that the Torah did not count women but in the modern age (i.e. the NT age) women were counted. The fact that they were not counted in the NT belies your argument. The NT system does not count women in their numbers, and therefore there is no reason to make them part of Stephen’s count. Your argument rests on sand, which you have just washed away.
(It was always built upon nothing but speculation anyway.)
Jim
I will not base my Faith on numbers and their interpretation. That is pure non sense. But like Sharbano rightly pointed out. The holy writers were referring to the symbolic meaning of this number in Torah. Like I just did it. They were of course more than 70 who saw Yahushuo Resurrected and it is on their true testimony that we believe.
If you want me to give you the meaning of the 70 number that will be pretty interesting. I will give you just a hint :
It refers to AYIN the Hebraic Letter which referred in ancient Hebrew to the Eye. For AYIN numerical value is 70 Then when this number is employed it means those who have seen, those who were witnesses and it does not necessarily mean an exact number of persons which could be more or less…
Lion,
Would it not be better to acknowledge your inconsistency?
Jim
I should make a correction here. I was not implying that the 70 were “symbolic” but that 70 has an association with it. There are seventy who went to Egypt and there are 70 nations, there are 70 bulls sacrificed on Sukkot, and those correspond to the nations, of which Sukkot is the festival the world must observe in the messianic age. This is Torah teaching.
Where do you find that there were 70 who witnessed that ‘resurrection’. As I recall there were very few and the accounts differ on who and furthermore I believe they were told not to speak to anyone of it.
I hadn’t even considered that point. I believe Paul made some mention about women that seemed pretty degrading.
Lion how on earth do you assert that HASHEM being alone is a false doctrine? It is very simply and plainly stated in the Torah. The trinity wasn’t even dogmatically established as a pillar of faith until Nicea, we know this because it debated for years.
Isaiah 45:5 clearly says there is no savior other than HASHEM. It is your contention that the rabbis changed the doctrines after Jesus, but Jews have always understood the verses that way, as even Justin’s dialogue with Trypho proves. Do you not also know that the Ebionites (Torah observant followers of Jesus) agreed with the Jewish/rabbinic definition of G-d’s unity and rejected a trinitarian concept?
If there were a trinity in Tanakh, it would only be known by inference, never by stated fact. The Jewish understanding is openly clearly stated multiple times.
Con dear brother the fact that we are debating proves that Holy Scriptures can be interpreted. You claim that rabbinic post Second Temple holds the truth. And the Apostolic Orthodox Church will claim that the Author of Scriptures (Ruah Holy) showed them the true Interpretation of Scriptures.
The debate is on and truth will always prevail!!
My personal mission is that the truth shown is neither at the left nor at the right but in the middle (straight) that is the meaning of Orthodox, bearing the straight path to the truth.
The role of prophets is always to show the people what’s the Elohim wants for it is written in Amos 3:7
כִּי לֹא יַעֲשֶׂה אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה דָּבָר כִּי אִם־גָּלָה סוֹדוֹ אֶל־עֲבָדָיו הַנְּבִיאִים
That nothing He accomplished Adonai YHWH Dabar that if He would reveal his secret-council to his servants the prophets
A translation correct reveals many things that common translation omit the word DABAR=WORD, also ADONAI is ancient dual form in Hebrew. The dual form again reveals deeper meaning to this sacred verse from Amos.
Note that primary interpretation will not see the deeper interpretation of the sacred word
1) because most people do not read the Hebrew nor understand it properly
2) only the holy ruah of counsel can reveal the secret-council of Elohim
3) only the Author knows the deeper and full meaning
Understanding Tanakh is like a big puzzle where the pieces are ordained in a meaning full sense through the hand of YHWH. That demands year of honest studying and prayers for the full meaning is reserved to a few. For where is the diligent man wanting to penetrate the secret council, who is worthy to take part. Nobody! For only grace and election are of the choosing of Elohim alone who reveals his secret to whom He chooses,
You’re being disingenuous with this. You want to translate Davar as ONLY “Word” whereas it ALSO has the meaning of “Thing”. Because the Hebrew construct incorporates the “essence” of a “thing” the Word and the Thing make up the construct. It is why Hashem G-d etc are not words of His essence but merely attributes. He has no essence and therefore doesn’t have a “Hebrew name”. A “Hebrew name” would Define His essence. Therefore BECAUSE of Hebrew Davar cannot be “part” of His essence. I suspect this is where Xtianity, or the authors of the books, were confused, being Greek speakers, that they misunderstood Hebrew at its roots. It is taught that G-d used Torah, made before creation, and spoke into existence all that there is. Those words became all creation, including man. Therefore man, from that spoken word became flesh. As it says in Genesis, G-d created The Adam. The meaning of Adam is clear. When Adam began to name the animals it wasn’t a name picked at random. He saw the “essence” of the animal and constructed the Hebrew word that described That Essence. The name “applies” to that animal. Therefore, the “word became flesh” is a distortion of what is actually true and compounds a distortion that results in a form of idolatry.
Sharbano what you wrote is brilliant. You are touching the truth in what you said. Then who can see and say the Essence of Elohim? Precisely His DABAR in His RUAH.
The Dabar made flesh came to take our humility to give us his Glory that we may see the One Elohim and truly worship in awe and love YHWH ELOHIM THE BELOVED. We become partakers of his essence. Through his light we see the ONE. That is why we are called elohim for we become One in the ONE.
I think it is safe to say that by taking the concept of G-d using Torah to create, you have elevated His thoughts as a separate entity worthy of worship. This is no different than the worship of any other creation. THAT is the entire point in Devarim. Is it your point when Torah says it is not in heaven, who shall go up to heaven and bring it, that this is an entity to be worshiped. The problem with YOUR definition, as stated, is that ALL of CREATION are His Dabar, not just a single man. It is THIS that was my point, the Hebrew language, as a construct, incorporates ALL creation. It is only Lashon Kodesh that can construct reality within itself. Your belief would suggest a worship akin to Pantheism. You cannot elevate one dabar separate from the others. Otherwise you are, in effect, redefining the essence of Hebrew, separating Davar between “word” and “thing” and making the two unique unto themselves.
You have suggested a “Kabbalistic” technique into the understanding of Xtianity but you have mistook the “principles” that govern Kabbalah. Just as areas of science uses terminology specific to that discipline so does Kabbalah use terms, not to define, but as mnemonics. It is understood that there are levels that Has G-d as the Cause of all causes and His Power is diminished somewhat as those levels get closer to our physical reality. What was seen at Sinai, and by Yechezkel, was His power Not as much diminished. It essentially put us on a level higher than the usual physical reality, somewhat closer as the level of the angels. Kabbalah seeks to grasp this concept. Hebrew can define Our reality but it cannot define His reality and this is the attempt. Given all this, I submit you have taken it to the level of the worship of the Merkavah. Your worship is directed to the physical realm instead of the spiritual realm. The two are incongruous. The physical defines closeness as proximity whereas spiritual closeness cannot. Therefore the physical doesn’t have the properties as the spiritual and surely must not be elevated to the Divine.
Sharbano you would be right but you forget the power of the Resurrection who transforms and will transform the physical realm in the realm of the spiritual.
You said also: “The problem with YOUR definition, as stated, is that ALL of CREATION are His Dabar, not just a single man.”
The Holy Tongue is the Dabar Elohim creating with YHWH and the Ruah Holy all that we see and what we do not see. All THREE are ONE Essence. The purpose of creation is to bring Adam to the sharing of the Divine Essence through the Messiah.
The DABAR made flesh concentrates the Power in our realm to eventually transform totally by the precise Power of the Resurrection. The Resurrection is the Mean that transform our reality in a spiritual substance capable of Communing to the Elohim.
The work of Salvation is Cosmic for the Messianic Body penetrates all the Creation to transformed it in a pure offering to YHWH the Source of all.
A spiritual resurrection would make no sense. As per Ezekiel the Third Temple will include all the physical requirements as previously done. Therefore the resurrection has to be to the physical realm. Therefore the rest of your comment is a non-sequitur.
This dabar elokim was completed at the time of creation, This according to Bereshit.
Sharbano if you are right than why the Universe is still expanding as many scientific are realizing.
The third temple theory will not happen. Ezekiel was talking about the second temple. With the death of the Messiah His Resurrected body unified with all the loving stones who are baptised and believe in Him are the Third Temple.
If not tell me what this sacred passage of Psalm 118 means:
22
The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
23
This was the Lord’s doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24
This is the day the Lord has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.
Sharbano and others and Yisroel who is this chief cornerstone? Answer honestly hopefully you will see the work of YHWH!!
I suppose it never occurred to you that King David might have been talking about HIMSELF. Reread the story of his selection to be king by Samuel and you will see that this reference is perfectly legitimate.
“Ezekiel was talking about the second temple.” Really? Then explain Ezekiel 43:6-7, please.
Expanding Universe?? What does That have to do with any of this. The earth used to have one land mass and see it today. Besides, quite recently there are scientists who say the Universe is not expanding. Either way it means nothing.
I’ve already showed that Ezekiel is speaking of the Third Temple. There is too much there that didn’t occur during the Second, unless you want to assert Ezekiel was a false prophet.
It’s quite clear who Psalm 118 is about, David. See his history. But I guess you prefer to see one verse and then apply it to your J’sus. Read the entire chapter because J’sus is as far from it as the expanded universe.
We could always agree that Zechariah 13 is about J’sus. He DID have wounds in his hands.
Furthermore, If there is no Third Temple, and Everything Temple oriented is done away with then Why, pray tell, are all the nations burdened with Jerusalem. What would be the point of Jerusalem. If this is so then why is the catholic church so forcefully trying to establish a foothold. Why are all the Xtians involved in Israel. This really doesn’t fit with anyone’s teachings.
In the verse that you quoted, Hashem is not talking about the secrets of understanding the Torah. It might help if you read verses in context.
It’s amazing to me that you fail to see the intellectual dishonesty in what you are doing.
Dina your judgement belongs to you. I know that you have not been establish as a judge in Israel. Therefore I take very lightly your own opinion based on your misunderstandings of what I wrote. Defog your mind to see clearly. For the dabarim elohim (divine words) are pure lights to those who have a pure heart to see.
Lion, we do not have fogged minds, so please quit with your vitriol. We have explained the pisition here, and you REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT, NOT OUR PROBLEM. Every objection you have raised has been thoroughly answered, but you accuse us falsely of distortion. WE ARE QUOTING WELL ESTABLISHED CONCEPTS AND COMMANDMENTS, NOT RELYING ON 1 or 2 verses.
Lion, this has nothing to do with “judgement” or with my personal opinion. You quoted a verse out of context. It’s very clear to see for anyone who actually reads the chapter you quoted from. You cannot show me why I am wrong, so you resort to insults (this is the main reason I don’t like talking to you).
Be a man and show me my error. If it is clear as you say then it should be easy to correct. If you cannot do that, be a man and admit that your claim that the secret teachings of the Torah are only given to prophets like you is not based on Scripture.
First Con you rely only on Deuteronomy 4 as one verse only to establish your own religion. I am the one here who provided with many verses explaining Deutoronomy 4 in an orthodox (a straight nor left nor right) interpretation.
Second Dina here is what contradicts what you are supposing:
God’s Kindness to Rebellious Israel
A Contemplation[a] of Asaph.
78 Give ear, O my people, to my law;
Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2
I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,
3
Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.
4
We will not hide them from their children,
Telling to the generation to come the praises of the Lord,
And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done.
5
For He established a testimony in Jacob,
And appointed a law in Israel,
Which He commanded our fathers,
That they should make them known to their children;
6
That the generation to come might know them,
The children who would be born,
That they may arise and declare them to their children,
7
That they may set their hope in God,
And not forget the works of God,
But keep His commandments;
8
And may not be like their fathers,
A stubborn and rebellious generation,
A generation that did not set its heart aright,
And whose spirit was not faithful to God.
Dina hear here how our forefathers were characterized: “A stubborn and rebellious generation…”
Also in the beginning note also how Elohim is speaking: “I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old…”
Who also was speaking in parable for the masses and explaining them to the disciples?? If you think you understand everything of the Torah than you are in delusion. Yes be obedient to the commandments but do not try to put Elohim in your box of understanding that will be a grave sin, let the Shakhinah show you her Beauty that you may see and know how Amazing and Sublime YHWH is…
You should pay more attention to verses 4,5,6, and 7 to see that you totally misunderstood this chapter. If you read the whole chapter you will see that God preserves his testimony in Israel despite our sins and rebellious ways. And how do we learn God’s laws? The verse tells us we learn them from our fathers, not from some secret ruach. So there.
The truth is staring you in the face.
I agree with Dina here. Even the translation provided says this
Which we have HEARD and KNOWN,
And our fathers have told us.
It is NOT UNknown. Besides mine says Torah, not law.
Is it Your contention that since it says “parable” Here and J’sus spoke in parables that THIS then relates to J’sus. You have to admit THAT is a stretch of magnitude.
First Con you rely only on Deuteronomy 4 as one verse only to establish your own religion.
OK, first things first Lion, Deuteronomy 4 is A WHOLE CHAPTER, not just one verse…1 Kings 19:11 is also very clear to state that despite physical phenomenon, THE L-RD WAS NOT IN THESE PHENOMENON. Exodus 20:4 tells us NOT TO MAKE AN IMAGE OF ANY SHAPE IN ORDER TO WORSHIP IT AS DIVINE. These facts all go directly against a theology that says G-d takes on the physical human form in order to be worshiped and served.
Again lion, you (like all Christians before you) are blaming Traditional Jews solely because they are holding a view based on inferences the’ve drawn to things explicitly srated in scripture. You believe that various verses by inference discuss G-d as being triune, but you refuse Jewish people the same right to draw inferences from the coearly stated commandments. Why is that? If you can infer from only one verse that the “us” in Genesis 1:26 must refer to a communion of person’s in G-d’s nature, how is it faulty logic at all for Jews to insist on serving the father only, especially when that sentiment is very plainly expressed in many more Verses than one? You are not using sound methods, or even looking at history.
Concerned Reader, you wrote “Again lion, you (like all Christians before you) are blaming Traditional Jews solely because they are holding a view based on inferences the’ve drawn to things explicitly srated in scripture.”
I would tend to agree with you except for the (like ALL Christians before you).
I (a Christian) along with other similarly minded non-Trinitarian Christians am not blaming traditional Jews for making inferences based on scripture. Actually we think that the Jews are spot on and always have been regarding the oneness of God.
And I think the Trininty as it has come to be known is an inference based on a misunderstanding of generally disconnected and in most cases unrelated verses which are brought together in an unintended way which then are used to form doctrine where one was never intended.
David, lion is Orthodox (in an Egyptian church f eastern rites,) so I will amend the “all” of my statement specifically to the church fathers who stand in that tradition with him. When I wrote that,I’m meant he uses classic exegetical examples like we have in Justin Martyr and others.
I have nothing against you, Jesus, or against Christians generally, I myself was raised non denominational, non trinitarian Protestant Christian, and half of my family is also Catholic. I learned the philosophical explanations/orthodox understandings of the trinity and more traditional Christian theology in college, (as part of my university degree, along with studies of other religions, and all this on top of my already Christian upbringing.) I was baptized at age seven. So, let it never be said, that I am generalizing against ALL Christians, sorry if I gave you that impression.
David, the trinity literally arises out of trying to reconcile Jewish scripture with the assuptions of a foreign Roman (largely Platonic and Stoic,) worldview. Sources like Pholo of Alexandria are essential in its development.
The purpose of Judaism however is not In these explanations/speculations about divine nature, but is chiefly concerned with Mitzvot.
Sorry for typos. Auto correct. Philo*
Hi Concerned Reader,
Very interesting background.
By the way, I have a somewhat unrelated issue I’ve been thinking about and since you were raised in a Christian/Catholic environment I thought I’d share it with you and get your experience.
My mother, who would be 93 now if still living, was raised Catholic in the Midwest of the United States. She was told not to read the bible as it was only for the priests and it would harm the brain of the ordinary person being that it is so complicated and spiritually deep.
My wife, who was born and raised decades later in another country which happens to be predominantly Catholic, was also raised Catholic and was also told something similar, not to read the bible. And like my mother was told it was just too complicated and harmful for the average person. Not only that but she was told it would actually make one go insane! she tells a story of her and her friends who saw an open bible in the house of the only protestant family in town and they ran out of there scared to death that something bad would happen to them by just being near the open bible.
What has been your experience in this regard with the bible and the Catholic church?
Lion, in effect you are getting upset, and hurling accusations about false doctrines at religious Jews because they are not believing in your inferences, but instead preferring the plainly stated verses. Jews are believing only in the concepts that are clearly stated in the Jewish bible. The Jewish contention is in the following verse from Amos 3: 7 Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets. If G-d were going to teach a divine messiah, it would not be taught by mere inference, it would be plainly stated. We know it isn’t plainly stated if it is there at all.
With all that’s been said about the Rebbe, this, the 21st Yartzeit, comes this from Chabad.
Dear Friend,
This coming Shabbat, the 3rd of Tammuz—starting on Friday evening, June 19th—is the 21st yahrtzeit (anniversary of passing) of the Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, of righteous memory.
On the 21st yahrtzeit of his father-in-law, the Sixth Rebbe, the Rebbe spoke these words:
It’s a mistake to think that my father-in-law’s life ended 21 years ago—that now we are left only with the fruits of his efforts. Rather, his life continues, as the Talmud says about our father Jacob, “Just as his children are alive, so too he is alive.”
The Rebbe then described his father-in-law as a person whose very being was his love, awe and faith in G-d. A life comprised of such spiritual energy can never die. It lives on, lighting up others with the same love, awe and faith, and empowering them to ignite that light in the hearts of others.
Twenty-one years after the Rebbe’s own passing, these words ring truer than ever. In every part of the world, more and more men and women sent to represent the Rebbe are breathing spiritual life into their communities and into all around them. With the Rebbe’s accessible guidance and continued blessings, any person who takes an active role in his or her community can do the same. Even those whose Jewish spark had all but extinguished find themselves re-ignited by the Rebbe’s mitzvah campaigns and through his institutions worldwide.
Each of us can study the Rebbe’s teachings and find our everyday lives filled with spiritual meaning. And that is where it all leads to: The Rebbe charges us all with the task of transforming our entire world, so that all of G-d’s creation will sing with divine life.
And this is where each of us comes in to the picture: For this special day, we’re providing customs for the yahrtzeit and a link to The Rebbe.org’s many essays and videos that communicate some of his message. Let’s each take some time to ponder them. And then to ask ourselves, “What am I doing to make this world the world its Creator meant it to be? How can I be part of the Rebbe’s vision to transform both my small world, and the great big world around me?”
The Rebbe often quoted Maimonides: Every deed counts. Every deed can tilt the scales for you and for the entire world.
And as the Rebbe said clearly, only eleven months before his fatal stroke, “I am handing it over to you. Do all you can to bring Moshiach now.”
Sincerely,
—your friends at Chabad.org
He brought a great deal to many. I regret I never had the chance to meet him.
Sharbano, I’ve watched many of the rebbes messages on Chabad.org and I can see he was important to many, and a good rabbi. The point of bringing him up (at least on my part) was not to disparage him, but to show how that kind of respect accorded to him can slowly evolve (when coupled with mystical notions) beyond the healthy level, as it happened with Jesus, and later with those messianists who have done the same to the rebbe, though few and far between they are.
Your assessment is spot-on, Con. Rabbi B. has pointed out that the belief that the Lubavitcher rabbi is the messiah (and in extreme cases, divine), grew out of an infatuation with him, not out of objective study of Scripture.
What I’ve noticed, (even in the case of Jesus and the early Christians) is that when you look at the Older mystical ideas that lay behind and ultimately become these messianist theologies, in the original context, the mystical notions of unity with the active intellect, the logos, the “spark of holiness,” etc. originally applied to everyone, (all the righteous,) not just one member of the people.
The problem is that a notion like (Jacob our father did not die, or Ein Od milvado gets hyper literal used, conflated together, and placed onto a single person by zealous followers. As a result the person gets deified. The notion that we are all intimately close with G-d becomes twisted into an idea that only the claiment in question is close to G-d. I don’t know if I’ve got that right?
I was checking up on the old blogs I used to frequent and found this post.
http://roshpinaproject.com/2015/06/18/stuart-dauermann-replies-magnanimously/#comment-141802
I wrote this in response to it.
Concerned Reader on June 19, 2015 at 1:53 pm said:
It’s important, and I mean very important for Christians to really let this statement really sink in.
“In addition, I did not mean to say that these gentlemen are anti-Semites or anti Zionists! My comparison was that just as it is incongruous for those who say they love the Jews to hate the Jewish State, so it is incongruous when we say we love the Jews BUT HATE THE MEANS God used to preserve them. THAT is the comparison–incongruity.”
G-d has used Pharisaic, and later rabbinic Judaism to preserve the TORAH FAITHFUL Jewish people. G-D HAS PRESERVED Those PEOPLE who are faithful to G-d’s decrees and find them G-Dly.
6 “I THE LORD DO NOT CHANGE. SO YOU, THE DESCENDANTS OF JACOB ARE NOT DESTROYED. 7 Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. RETURN TO ME and I WILL RETURN TO YOU,” says the Lord Almighty.
“But you ask, ‘How are we to return?’
8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.
“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’
“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 BRING THE WHOLE TITHE INTO THE STOREHOUSE, that there may be food in my house. TEST ME IN THIS,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the Lord Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the Lord Almighty.
Israel Speaks Arrogantly Against God
13 “You have spoken arrogantly against me,” says the Lord.
“Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’
14 “YOU HAVE SAID IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE G-D. WHAT DO WE GAIN BY CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS AND GOING ABOUT LIKE MOURNERS BEFORE G-D ALMIGHTY? BUT NOW WE CALL THE ARROGANT BLESSED. Certainly evildoers prosper, AND EVEN WHEN THEY PUT G-D TO THE TEST, they get away with it.’”
The Faithful Remnant
16 THEN THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name.
17 “On the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty, “they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him. 18 AND YOU WILL AGAIN SEE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND E WICKED, between those who serve God and those who do not.
WHAT A CRYSTAL CLEAR INDICTMENT OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY AND ITS ATTITUDES AND EFFECTS TOWARDS THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND TORAH OBSERVANCE THESE VERSES ARE!
Reply ↓
THE CHURCH SAYS OBSERVANCE IS USELESS, BUT HASHEM SAYS THAT IS THE MEANS OF JACOB’s preservation.
” ‘It is incongruous when we say we love the Jews BUT HATE THE MEANS God used to preserve them. THAT is the comparison–incongruity.’ ”
“G-d has used Pharisaic, and later rabbinic Judaism to preserve the TORAH FAITHFUL Jewish people. G-D HAS PRESERVED Those PEOPLE who are faithful to G-d’s decrees and find them G-Dly.”
Powerful stuff, Con, powerful stuff indeed.
Con you said: “THE CHURCH SAYS OBSERVANCE IS USELESS, BUT HASHEM SAYS THAT IS THE MEANS OF JACOB’s preservation.”
That is not true. Judaism liberal and even conservators says homosexuality is morally ok. The Orthodox churches says no and I think most of your sect of Judaism say no.
Which churches are you talking about. The pseudo-christians ?? The Orthodox churches all preach the observance of all the commandments of Eloah. Saying the contrary is a lie!!
Orthodox Christians only observe moral injunctions, they DO NOT observe the sabbath on Friday evening and Saturday as Jews do, nor do they keep the laws of kashrut, nor do they observe sukkot, Hannukah, Shavuot, or yom kippur, etc. the way the Torah prescribes these days be kept. The traditional churches keep entirely different Church mandated holidays, fasts, feasts, and observances, they do not observe Torah.
Jesus observed Jewish customs, not Christian ones.
Lion, Hashem says, to use Con’s words, that observance is the means of Jacob’s preservation. You quoted those words and then wrote that that is not true. But that is what the Torah says, so how do you reconcile that?
Furthermore, Reform and Conservative Jews do not practice observance of the Torah’s commandments. Surely you know this. Their assimilation rate is 80%–God is obviously not preserving them. Con specifically pointed to Pharisaic Judaism as the Judaism that God has chosen to preserve throughout the generations. Other sects spring up and die out, but Pharisaic Judaism ALWAYS survives. The survival rate of Pharisaic Judaism is 100%, as it is the only sect of Judaism since the destruction of the Second Temple to survive down to the present day. This you would know if you studied history, but I suspect you are too busy listening to whisperings of ephemeral winds to do anything quite so down to earth as read a history book.
The Orthodox churches preach observance of all of God’s commandments? These Christians do not wear mixtures of wool and linen? They do not eat milk and meat together? They do not eat pork and shellfish? They observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week? Really? Tell the truth!
Dina and Con, I will have to agree with you. Very few do observe Shabat or the law of kashrut. They do observe all the moral injunctions.
Those among the Christian receptive to all the mitzvot especially Shabat will be a testimony that they belong to Israel and not Esau-Edom. That is a test to them!
But on the side of Yehudah we have to recognize the Messiah of Israel who is the living Torah.
The problem now is that Israel and Yehudah are divided. Bridges must be built and theology must be discussed to pair the gap of all the misunderstandings and misconceptions.
I have a dream and it will be realized for I know that his the will of Eloah!!
Lion, you wrote to Con that “The Orthodox churches all preach the observance of all the commandments of Eloah. Saying the contrary is a lie!!”
Then you wrote this: “Dina and Con, I will have to agree with you. Very few do observe Shabat or the law of kashrut.”
Are you admitting that your first statement is false? That not all Orthodox churches preach observance of all of Hashem’s commandments? Or are you saying that they do preach about observing commandments such as wearing tefilin, not wearing a mixture of wool and linen, and so on, but their followers fail to follow through?
Just trying to get clarification here. Thanks.
By the way, Lion, you didn’t respond to the point that Con and I made that God has chosen to preserve only Pharisaic Judaism. See our comments above. Thanks.
You have a dilemma here. You are saying Israel and Judah are divided and you have also said Ezekiel speaks of the Second Temple. The Temple Ezekiel speaks about says ALL the tribes are together and the land is apportioned to the tribes as it is supposed to be. Therefore this spiritual Temple, or whatever you determine it to be is a false teaching.
Dina, Con wrote: “THE CHURCH SAYS OBSERVANCE IS USELESS, BUT HASHEM SAYS THAT IS THE MEANS OF JACOB’s preservation.”
My point here that the Orthodox churches observe all the moral Torah not the Hebraic customs and kashrut for most of them are from the Goyim. But those of the Lost Tribes in the churches should and will observe the Shabat and the Customs but they must be educated.
Yourself you said that the Goyim are not bond by the shabat observance. Orthodox Christian observe a shabat that falls on our Yom Rishon. For they celebrates the new Creation the Day of the Resurrection. That is a Covenant of Elohim to the Goyim (Nations). What is wrong with that?
Back to the Hebraic customs, Goyim are not to be subjected to those. Although you can think they should but those are not Moral Commandments but custom commandments designed to differentiate Israel from the Goyim. The problem is that Israel (the ten tribes) were lost among the Gentiles and now are mostly in the Christian churches. Our job is to educate Israel to the customs of their forefathers that is the mission of the faithful Yehudah but all that without denying the Messiah of Israel whose job was to save the Israel Lost in paganism.
Hopefully you will understand the task and see your mission. No bashing each others but unifying Yehudah and Israel.
Todah!!
I never said the goyim are subject to all the laws. I was just picking on you because you said the Orthodox churches preach observance of ALL of God’s commandments. You used the word “all.” So if that is not what you meant, you need to choose your words more carefully, O prophet.
Christians do not have a covenant with Hashem to observe Shabbat not on the seventh day nor on any other day of the week. The Sunday day of worship that was instituted by Christians is not even mentioned in Christian scripture. In fact, Constantine was the one who started it.
Sharbano, I will agree with you. Ezekiel is a real problem to understand properly.
1) Ezekiel is a priest first a Levite who became a prophet having seen the Glory of Eloah.
2) Ezekiel is effectively seeing a new Temple were all the tribes are reunited.
3) From point 2 that can therefore only be a Spiritual temple meaning composed of living stones as described in the other Prophets
4) If you theory is correct we should already see the 3rd physical Temple built but it is not there… You always refer to the prophecies being written in a context to be applied to specific time not so far from the prophet predictions… Here it is more than 2500 years that Ezekiel proclaimed this prophecy and still we are waiting…
5)According to point 4) if you theory is correct than you bear the responsibility of accusing Ezekiel to be a false prophet, but if I am correct Ezekiel saw a Second Temple that could have been the last one if and only IF Yehudah would have accepted the Messiah of Israel. His prophecy was Spiritual and could have incarnated in to the physical realm only if Yehudah would have accepted the true Messiah Yahushuo Elohim
6)Because of the rejection of Yehudah has predicted in Daniel, the 3rd Temple as become Spiritual first to be incarnated in a latter time in our Physical realm when only Yehudah and Israel will be ONE again and forever.
That is the meaning of Ezekiel Vision!!
Sharbano to complete what I just wrote, psalm 118 confirms the Spiritual precedence of the Temple of YHWH over the physical. For the Resurrected Spiritual Messiah is the chief cornerstone of the New Temple:
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness;
I will go through them,
And I will praise YHWH.
20 This is the gate of YHWH,
Through which the righteous shall enter.
21 I will praise You,
For You have answered me,
And have become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This was the doing of YHWH;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day YHWH has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I pray, O YHWH
O YHWH I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of YHWH
We have blessed you from the house of YHWH
27 EL YHWH He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.
28 You are Eli, and I will praise You;
You are Elohai, I will exalt You.
29 Oh, give thanks to YHWH, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.
You ignored the salient point and resorted to a rebuttal of the vague. Is there nothing in your new religion that has clarity. What you are insisting is that Ezekiel is a false prophet. He is not speaking in riddles as you are, referencing that which doesn’t apply. As I said previously, and you chose to ignore, if there is no Third Temple then there is no need for Jerusalem. If the Temple is spiritual then Jerusalem would also have to be spiritual. In that case there should be no burden of Jerusalem in the end of days. You would have to deny what all would consider truth. You Do have a tendency to have a singular focus and and exclude all else when making points. Because of that, you focus only what faces and ignore everything all around. Clearly the vision of Ezekiel stabs at the heart of Xtianity. It is why Every Xtian I have encountered has steered clear of its words. One never hears a Xtian teach from those chapters. Maybe it is as you say, they believe in a spiritual Temple. But Isaiah actually confirms what Ezekiel writes. Whereas Ezekiel speaks in terms of precise details Isaiah speaks in the general. As in Torah there is the general and the precise. Now, we have two witnesses with words of clarity verses One witness who speaks, not in the general, but in the vague. We conclude we follow the two witnesses.
In Isaiah 2
The prophecy that Isaiah son of Amoz saw, concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It WILL happen in the END OF DAYS: The mountain of the Temple of Hashem will be firmly established as the head of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will go and say, “Come let us go up to the Mountain of Hashem, to the Temple of the G-d of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths. For from Zion will the Torah come forth, and the word of Hashem from Jerusalem. He will judge among the nations, and will settle the arguments of many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.
We can apply the words of Isaiah metaphorically concerning the nations.
Then the moon shall be confounded (Islam’s calendar), and the sun ashamed (Xtian calendar), when the Lord of Hosts shall reign in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and there will be honor for his elders.
I have One question that relates to another question left unanswered. It was asked if there were any source material on the internet that supports all your contentions. I have encountered others who came to conclusions unique to themselves. Each time I asked how is it that no one else has these same conclusions. They, too, credit the Ruach for their understanding. So many ruachs, so many understandings. Doesn’t it seem just a bit suspicious that you, or any one of these others, have a revealed truth that only is revealed to you. What this Does tell us is the similarity for all who have traveled this path. It goes to the Applewhite Theorem. This is the method to which all new religions arrive. There is One person who has some vision, or revealed truth, and they alone are privy to this truth. It is of no benefit to the individual to have a truth that is not revealed to others. Therefore, one must gain converts to that revelation. Once a few begin to be persuaded there develops a “congregation”. The leader then has a reinforcement mechanism to continue. There is within man a lust for this attention. He sees himself as insignificant and no one cherishes that perception. This is how the many religions have begun, from one end of the earth to the other. Each one of these individuals speak in His Name, in some manner. Each one of the leaders had their own vision, their own understandings, and they alone were the worthy one to transmit that understanding. The singular case where the One G-d, whom everyone had a revelation from, actually speaks to an entire nation has His Words written on parchment. These words are accessible to all. Instead of trying to understand Those words, which HE commanded to be written, all men have gone astray and took their own path, of their own understanding, of their own revelation and established their own messiahs. A person cannot have clarity of what’s on the inside by looking through a frosted glass. One must open the window and enter and see, without any distortion that the window causes.
Lion, why do you keep ignoring our perfectly plausible interpretation that King David is talking about himself in this Psalm? He was considered the least of all his brothers and he was nearly passed over for the kingship.
what do you mean dream? And will you share that with us.
Dina pharisaic tradition is not the whole observance of Torah. You might have held the ancient customs to a certain extent not including though the old passed due sacrificial system abolished now for more than 1900 years. How can you say that you kept everything??
The sacrificial system was NOT “abolished” as you say. It is a sign of ignorance to say such a thing.
Sharbano you can say whatever you want but that does not make your delusion less a delusion when you say that the sacrificial system is still in place when more than 1900 years have passed without a temple sacrifice. Are you ok or you blindness as struck so bad that you have lost any sense of reality?
Oh may be you think because of a misunderstanding of Ezekiel the prophet that it will be again. You should re-read Ezekiel let me highlight you some passages for your healing:
18 And it was made with cherubim and palm trees, a palm tree between cherub and cherub. Each cherub had two faces, 19 so that the face of a man was toward a palm tree on one side, and the face of a young lion toward a palm tree on the other side; thus it was made throughout the temple all around. 20 From the floor to the space above the door, and on the wall of the sanctuary, cherubim and palm trees were carved. (Ezekiel 41)
Oops there is another contravention of Deuteronomy 4. Hmmm I wonder what does that mean everything is so clear in the Tanakh. Enlighten us o mighty Sharbano…
Here is another passage of Ezekiel that makes you wonder how can the priest approach YHWH ?
13 Then he said to me, “The north chambers and the south chambers, which are opposite the separating courtyard, are the holy chambers where the priests who approach YHWH shall eat the most holy offerings. (Ezekiel 42)
Last passage to make you wonder…
”Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the house of YHWH
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.” (Isaiah 2)
Who is this mountain established on the top of the mountains? What means mountains in prophetic language?
Shalom!!
Maybe it’s due to your poor use of words. You used the term “Abolish”. There is no biblical reference or decision by the Sanhedrin that has abolished sacrifices. Because there have been none for all these years doesn’t mean they are abolished. They ARE suspended without a Temple to perform them.
{Oops there is another contravention of Deuteronomy 4. Hmmm I wonder what does that mean everything is so clear in the Tanakh. Enlighten us o mighty Sharbano… }
It is G-D HIMSELF who is determining what shall be. Are you saying G-d doesn’t have the authority to tell the people what to do. Well, how much more so for YOUR beliefs.
How does describing a mountain negate the existence of a Third Temple. Once again you take something that can have metaphorical meaning to negate the entirety. If you believe that all those eight chapters are metaphorical I want to see your dissertation of the entire eight chapters, including all the dimensions. If you check the Artscroll Tanach, on page 2042 it shows a picture of what the Temple would look like. Instead of basing your religion on one-liners I suggest you read the text in its entirety, for a Complete understanding and not a bifurcated one.
” I have a dream and it will be realized for I know that his the will of Eloah!!”
EL–What will be realized. What is the will of Eloah?
Lion, you keep changing the argument. You did not address my point at all, which is that the means God chose for preserving the Jewish people was through the Pharisaic tradition. What does observing all the commandments have to do with my argument?
Don’t you know that not all the commandments were given to all the people? Some commandments apply only to husbands, only to fathers, only to mothers, only to women, only to men, only to farmers, only to priests, only to Levites, only to judges, only to the Kohen Gadol, only in the Holy Land, and so on and so forth. That is why your question is perfectly silly.
Now, answer my question. Why did every single schismatic faction of Judaism peter out, while Pharisiac Judaism (today known as Orthodox Judaism) survive into the next generation? Do you know that this happening today as well? The assimilation rate for non-Orthodox Jews (such as Reform and Conservative) is 80% compared to 3% for Orthodox Jews according the Pew Research Poll.
Did you know that the early Jewish Christian sects also did not survive as a Jewish movement? So why is it that the only Jews who keep their identity as Jews are those who follow traditional Judaism?
Answer me that, Monsieur!
Dina says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:51 am
” ‘It is incongruous when we say we love the Jews BUT HATE THE MEANS God used to preserve them. THAT is the comparison–incongruity.’ ”
What’s really interesting is that it was a messianic who said this first part.
Ironic.
What has been your experience in this regard with the bible and the Catholic church?
David, (as I said, I personally was raised Protestant,) but as regards my Catholic family members, it is true that they do not emphasize a personal reading of scripture. This was after all, THE ISSUE dividing the Protestant reformers from the Catholic churches. Remember that Orthodoxy and Catholicism, (as the historic churches) are largely liturgical, and sacrament based, they do not take a sola scriptura approach.
In fact, many people do not really know what the book says on their own, because, yes, the priest is the one who conducts the religious services. That’s true even of old protestant groups like Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. The text is read aloud to the congregation by the priest,, (from a Church approved translation,) and then interpreted by the clergy. Its actually a very old approach to conveying the scriptures. Its only relatively recently in history that everyday folks can even read scripture for themselves.
Back to the Hebraic customs, Goyim are not to be subjected to those. Lion the injunctions given for the gentile converts in Acts 15 include 3 riles about food ie kosher. The Churchbhas abandoned even those Jewish practices that the disciples taught them to keep.
Lion,
When there are two interpretations offered of a passage of scripture, it is obvious that we cannot rely upon the ruah to be the final arbiter, because if both parties had access to the ruah, the misinterpretation could not have transpired. So, when you claim that you rely upon the ruah and we should listen to you, this is no proof of your interpretation. The only thing we can do is study the matter carefully and see if the interpretations stand up to careful scrutiny. With this in mind, let us revisit Psalm 110.
You and I have proposed two different interpretations. You hold the psalm up as proof that the Messiah is divine. For the sake of argument, I took it to be written about the Messiah as well, but argued that the Messiah could not be divine. These two opposing views cannot both be true. If we do not rely upon an unverified ruah, we will need to test by how it fits into the psalm and possibly the greater picture of Tanach. In this instance, we will only need the psalm to answer the question: “Assuming the psalm is talking about the Messiah, does it show the Messiah to be divine or not divine?”
Let us begin with your interpretation. It relies solely upon your interpretation of the first verse, and even upon the phrase “Sit at my right hand”. From this you find proof of your belief that the Messiah is divine. You argue that only a divine being can sit at the right hand of God. This argument, however, ignores the rest of the psalm, including the end of the sentence: “Till I make your enemies your footstool.” (I am using your translation, but I reduced the prejudicial capitalization of ‘Your’.) Any consideration of this entire sentence–and it does not require a long consideration–will show that the Messiah is not God. God does not rely upon another to make His enemies a footstool. It is clear from this sentence alone that the Messiah is not divine. Your interpretation is contradicted by the same sentence upon which you attempt to erect it.
Let us try the other interpretation. I contend that, if this is talking about the Messiah, that the Messiah is not divine and the offering of the seat to God’s right is a metaphor. Does this also run into contradiction?
In the first verse, we have God making a promise to the Messiah that God will subjugate His enemies on his behalf. The right hand of God indicates that He favors the Messiah. But the Messiah is not divine, so he waits upon God. This interpretation makes it out of the first verse without contradiction. That is in its favor.
The rest of the verses continue this theme. Verse 2 says that the Messiah will rule in the midst of his enemies, because God will send “the rod of [the Messiah’s] strength. Verse 3 has the people willing to serve the Messiah at the time God establishes him. Verse 4 has the Messiah dependent upon the promise of God, a promise that would mean nothing to another part of the godhead. Verse 5 tells us that it is God who crushes the Messiah’s enemies, a help he would not need if he were God. Verse 6 seems to be about God judging the nations. But if it is about the Messiah, verse 6 would be the exercise of power that God promised him in the previous verses. Again, nothing here would make him divine. And verse 7 also contains nothing about the Messiah being divine. The end seems to mean that God will lift up the head (i.e. exalt) the Messiah. Again, this would show that Messiah not to be divine, because God need no one else to raise His head.
Running through the entire psalm, my interpretation does not come into contradiction. The verses after the first explain what God will do on behald of the Messiah who waits upon God. Your interpretation could not clear the first verse. Between the two interpretations, mine is the only one that has a chance of being correct.
This being the case, I think that we should ask ourselves how your interpretation came to be. It is rather strange that an interpretation that is contradicted by the sentence upon which it relies could have been arrived at after careful consideration. It is evident to me, if not to you, that it was not the ruah that led you to this interpretation. It was a prior belief that the Messiah was a divine being, instilled in you by the church. Armed with that belief, you seized too readily on an interpretation that ignored the very sentence upon which you tried to build it. The problem is that your reading is not natural to the verse. At the time of David, it is highly unlikely that people heard or read this psalm and concluded that the Messiah was divine. The Messiah depends upon the strength of God. It is not until the innovations of the Church that your reading could be done, and that only by blinding oneself to the psalm.
Jim
Jim you are being your own judge. Your testimony is a misinterpretation which do not understand the meaning of sitting at the Right Hand.
The Right Hand of EL is His DABAR. The adoni(lord) sitting at the Right Hand means that the being here the Adoni is exalted up high where He sits as Man completely transformed One with the Eternal DABAR meaning in the authority and power that the DABAR has on all creation being the SUSTAINING WORD=DABAR. Here the Adoni sees the HAND of ELOAH doing for Him all this work of DOMINATION of his enemies.
This Adoni a man in appearance on earth exalted in the heavens to his pre-condition of Elohim before his incarnation has now the privilege to see his enemies being his footstool.
If he is not Elohim how can his feet touched his enemies being his footstool?
Also other important point that you missed unintentionally I presume is this passage:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
What is the order of Malkitzedek? I think that this one you would have a hard time answering not having the Revelation to do.
Shalom!!
How can Dabar be on the right hand when it comes from the mouth. As you cited Bamidbar, Moshe speaks to G-d mouth to mouth. Your analysis makes no sense in light of this.
Sharbano now you have decided to be literal in your understanding. How can you speak and do the dishes with your arms?
Obviously you are disobeying Deuteronomy 4: You are boxing again Elohim to fit your carnal mind. The teaching of Deuteronomy for carnal minds (Not Mosheh) is that you should not make forms of Elohim for you will distort his infinite Beauty. My advice for you is to pray with Tehilim (Psalms) that you might see a spark of the beauty of true Judaism that you may conform your mind to the divine mind in order for you to see the beauty and wholeness of the One Revelation
Oh, I’m being too literal for you. Since you’ve never studied Parsha ,as a Jew, we can safely assume you have never had the opportunity, and evidently the desire, to learn Torah for what it is. You keep wanting to ascribe and relegate the entire Torah to metaphorical hyperbole and not only lose out to the beauty of Torah study, but dismiss all that it contains. How is it possible to for one to keep the Mitzvot if everything is a metaphor. By your accounting we shouldn’t even be learning Torah for That purpose. Instead we should refrain from observance and focus on the metaphor. There is clearly no purpose in Pshat and it is only there to be a conduit for the esoteric. But this method distorts everything the Prophets are telling the people. What They say the people should or should Not do is of no consequence, as it all points to J’sus. Therefore everything, everything that they instructed the people has become moot, not only in Our time but also in Their time. It is one thing to study things of a deeper meaning in Torah as an exercise but to have one consumed by an exercise is truly a distraction of G-d’s intent when He DOES speak in precise terms.
Lion,
Your labored interpretations are flat out contradicted by the text. You have imposed nonsense that does not exist in the psalm, nor anyone else. The Messiah is never called by your pet phrase, dabar. Your questions here are without merit.
Jim
Lion,
You have been insistent that the resurrection is an event that proves that Jesus was the Messiah. I have argued elsewhere that the resurrection is irrelevant to the Messiah. But, for your sake, I will take up several objections to the resurrection. For the ease of reading, I will address these problems in separate posts. In this one I will take up the question of its credibility.
The question of whether or not the resurrection happened is difficult. Certainly, we do not wish to argue that God cannot resurrect someone. It is not beyond the realm of possibility. However, that does not mean it happened. The problem with knowing whether or not it happened is that it was a private event. Jesus revealed himself to a relative few.
Complicating matters, the gospels are written in such a way to earn the reader’s sympathy. One sees things through the eyes of a believer. The telling of the story inclines one to accept it, because of the perspective from which it is written. It is as if the reader is there with the disciples when Jesus comes back. To help us examine the credibility of the claims of the NT, I would like us to alter our perspective for a moment. Let us separate ourselves from the perspective of the writer, and consider ourselves as people who lived during the time of Jesus. Let us figure out what the resurrection would have looked like to us as people who did not witness for ourselves the resurrection.
For this thought experiment, we will assume that we have heard of Jesus. Perhaps we have even heard him speak. Perhaps we have even been moved by his teaching. According to Matthew, the Jewish leadership understood that Jesus was to be resurrected after three days, so we will assume that we know of this claim. We have heard that Jesus was to return three days after his death.
So, here we are, wondering if this man just might be the Messiah. To our horror, he is put to death, a brutal death. This saddens us, for we thought that he just might be the one for whom we had been waiting. Now we see that he was just another false claimant to the throne. But wait! We remember that he is supposed to come back after three days.
And so we wait expectantly, wondering if it just might be true. Will he come back?
Since we are not in the inner circle, three days come and go for us uneventfully. According to the NT, Jesus only appears to a few on the third day and the event is not publicized. You and I have heard nothing about it. We continue about our business.
Then, 47 days later, suddenly we hear news. His disciples claim that Jesus returned just as he said he would. I do not know about you, but I am wary at this point. He was supposed to come back on the third day. We are only hearing about it on the 50th. This seems rather suspicious. But, if you are willing to hear them out, so am I. So we ask them to take us to Jesus. And they tell us that he ascended to be with the Father ten days prior to their announcing his resurrection. He is not here anymore.
This is the story according to the NT. It is not until day 50, not day 3, that the resurrection of Jesus is announced. And then, he is not around to prove the claim. My question to you is this: do you find their claim credible?
Before you answer, consider the way a magician performs an illusion. He tells you that he is going to turn an egg into a dove. Then he puts the egg behind a handkerchief, a veil through which you cannot see. All you can see is movement, while he distracts you with patter. Then, as if by magic, from behind the veil, emerges a dove. So, do you believe that this was actual magic?
Of course you do not. You know that the reason the magician veils his actions is because he is not practicing actual magic. He distracts you and obscures his actions while he swaps the egg for a pigeon. And while you may be delighted by the illusion if it is performed well, you do not believe for a moment that you saw actual magic.
With the resurrection, things are the same. There is a remarkable claim made, but everything happens behind a veil. You are told that Jesus came back on time. But the event was private. It was not publicized until 47 days after the event was predicted to happen. Moreover, at that time, there was no Jesus. At least with a magician, you get a pigeon. With the resurrection, you do not get Jesus at all.
This is like a magician who forgot the pigeon and tries to fake it. He flutters the veil quickly and looks up like the pigeon just flew away. He tries to inspire amazement in the audience talking about how quickly the pigeon flew for having just been transmuted from an egg. He says that he’s never seen the trick go so well. None of the audience sees the bird. Just so, they never saw Jesus.
So, is the claim that Jesus was resurrected credible? No.
Jim
Is that actually the case that his supposed resurrection was more than 40 days later. I certainly wasn’t aware of that.
Sharbano,
I apologize for not being clear. No, Jesus is supposed to have resurrected on the third day and ascended to the heavens on the 40th day. On the 50th day from his death, the disciples are supposed to have announced the resurrection, 47 days after the supposed event, and after Jesus had disappeared into the sky.
Jim
The NT also says that the dead of Jerusalem rose with Jesus and wandered the streets. Mathew 27:52. Nobody ever mentions speaking with these other redirected people either. Not Romans, or Christians.
Lion,
Continuing to contemplate the resurrection. I have already argued that it is not a credible event. There is no reason to believe it. Now, I would like to argue that Jesus cannot be taken as a prophet, precisely because of the promise of the resurrection.
According to Matthew 12.38, some Pharisees and scribes approached Jesus and asked him for a sign. Inasmuch as Jesus seems to claim special knowledge through revelation, this is a reasonable request. Jesus uses it as an opportunity to attack them, as is his way. Jesus does not like to be questioned. He expects one to just take his word for it.
However, he does give them a sign, if in a surly manner. Basically, he says that he will come back from the dead after three days and three nights. So now, the Jewish people have a test. The only question is whether or not Jesus fulfills the sign that he offered them.
Now a note about signs: a sign is something observable. If one cannot see a sign, then the sign is not a sign. If I tell you that I am a police officer, the sign of my being one is my badge and identification. But they are not signs unless I show them to you. If I tell you I am a police officer and that I have a badge in my pocket but that you cannot examine it, you are not likely to take my word for it. I have offered you no proof by claiming that the proof is in my pocket where you cannot see it.
With that in mind, let us consider what happens. Jesus is supposed to have come back from the dead. At that point, the only way to fulfill the sign and his word is to present himself to the Pharisees. This is his responsibility. Instead he skulks about, hiding for forty days until he rises, like Romulus, to the heavens.
It is the testimony of the NT that Jesus never fulfilled the sign. Deuteronomy 18.22 tells us what we are to make of this: “If the prophet will speak in the Name of HaShem and that thing will not occur and not come about–that is the word that HaShem has not spoken; with willfulness has the prophet spoken it, you should not fear him.” Jesus prophesies, but his prophecies do not come about. He promises a sign and does not fulfill it. We are to reject such a prophet.
Keep in mind, even the NT acknowledges that Jesus did not present himself. This is why the Church has created a new definition of faith, which is believing what it says without proof. (See Jesus’ treatment of Thomas. “Blessed are those who have not seen, etc.”) Faith in the NT means taking the NT’s word for it.
Very frequently, critics of Christianity cite Jesus’ failure to return in the lifetime of his contemporaries as a false prophecy. And certainly they are correct. But according to the NT, his failed prophecies begin earlier than that. Jesus told people that he would return after three days, and then never came to them and showed them. He just disappeared.
As I pointed out, then, he never fulfilled the sign, even if he did come back, because it was not observable. It is as if he said that he was a police officer, but he cannot show you his badge just now. Even if he did return from the dead, he did not fulfill the sign. So, we are not to listen to him.
Jim
An interesting note here. I this J’sus were as he claimed and IF he knew Torah, as he claimed, then he should be Well Aware of the test given to a prophet and he should have been willing to give an account.
“Blessed are those who have not seen, etc.”. This is further evidence of my contention of being non-Jewish authors. It is anti-Torah.
Lion,
Continuing my remarks on the resurrection:
Let us assume that the resurrection did take place. And let us imagine that Jesus did present himself to the Pharisees. Would this have been enough to establish him as a true prophet and the Messiah?
The Torah system does not rely solely upon miracles. As R’ Blumenthal recently spoke about, miracles by themselves do not prove anything within the Torah system. Deuteronomy 13 tells us that there may be false prophets who are able to perform signs and wonders.
Before pressing on, we must note something here: the Torah does not differentiate in the magnitude of the miracle. The Torah does not say that if one heals the sick, that’s pretty good, but if he raises the dead, then the prophet is certainly a true prophet. There is no ranking of miracles. The Torah is about to apply a test to the prophet, but that test does not relate to the difficulty of the miracle.
Within the Torah system, which you acknowledge as having been given by God, the prophet is not entirely validated by his signs or wonders. The Torah says that if the prophet should say, “Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them,” they should not be heeded (v. 3). In fact, this prophet is to be stoned. Deuteronomy 13 makes clear that one is to follow HaShem alone. “HaShem, your God, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave” (v.5).
Here is where Jesus runs into another problem. Even if the resurrection story were credible, which it is not, and even if he had presented himself to the Pharisees as promised, which he did not, if Jesus claimed divinity, he is not to be heeded. The remarkable nature of the supposed resurrection does not grant license to worship him. Deuteronomy is clear that one is to worship HaShem alone, and it does not allow for a new understanding of him, as has been discussed regarding Deuteronomy 4.
If Jesus claimed to be divine, then he was a god that the Jewish people did not know. They did not receive a revelation of Jesus. In fact, Deuteronomy 13 is making quite clear that one’s devotion is to Hashem alone. One must keep His laws and serve Him. The perversion of those laws advocated by Jesus, by turning Pesach into a day about himself, for example, is another violation of these conditions. Jesus ends up failing the test of the prophet in two ways then, and must be viewed as a seducer.
The resurrection, therefore, if it had happened, would be interesting. By itself, however, it would not vindicate Jesus. He would not be granted carte blanche to teach whatever he wanted. He must not teach others to worship him. The magnitude of the sign or wonder does not give license to devote oneself to anyone other than HaShem. If Jesus claimed to be divine, then his resurrection becomes irrelevant. It is known by his message that he is a false prophet. And, being a false prophet, he is certainly not the Messiah either.
The appeal to the resurrection has failed three ways, then. One, the claim is not credible. Two, Jesus did not fulfill the conditions of the resurrection to make it a sign. Three, even if he had resurrected, if he advocated worship of himself, he is in violation of Torah and is not to be heeded. One’s faith just cannot rest upon the resurrection.
Jim
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