The Historical Jesus and the Historicity of the Christian Scriptures

1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources

The Historical Jesus and the Historicity of the Christian Scriptures

Much ink has been expended in the effort to uncover the historical Jesus. The questions abound. Was Jesus a radical revolutionary against the oppressive Roman Empire or was he a pacifist who decried the use of force? Was Jesus an imposter or was he a messenger from on high? Was he a prophet or was he a deluded dreamer? What theology did Jesus preach? Did he preach a Trinity or did he advocate a pure monotheistic faith?

All of these arguments center on the work of literature that is known as the Christian Scripture. It is in this set of books that the character and the history of Jesus are depicted. This series of books brings a new set of questions to the discussion. Who authored these books? When were these books authored? Was there another document that preceded these…

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105 Responses to The Historical Jesus and the Historicity of the Christian Scriptures

  1. junzey says:

    Good Morning, dear Rabbi Yisrael, May the L-RD bless you with a wonderful week in Hashem! I read your article and have some thoughts for you: 1) Has not the Tenach exhorted us to love the L-RD thy G-d with All … so it is Not a NT doctrine of G-d or thought at all…2) If Isaiah 9:6 was indeed a prophecy of the Coming Anointed One – Then Luke 1 really needs to be considered3) If Isaiah 9:6 and Luke 1 are truly connected – then Jesus/Yeshua was Not ‘just’ a man – He was as much the Son of Man as The Son of G-d!4) If Deut. 18:14-16 applies to Jesus/Yeshua – then He is not just a prophet He is The Prophet Moses spoke to our people about … something to really consider – because Moses said we should listen (Shema – hear and obey) Him!5) Yeshua Himself in the Book of Acts told His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations and to teach them what they have been taught by Him (personal relationship with Him) and to baptize them in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit … so it was a teaching of Yeshua that men perverted in men’s teachings of making up the word trinity … but it was the plurality of the One G-d that Yeshua was teaching which is a Very Hebraic Truth … (We see in Genesis 1:1,2; 2: In the beginning G-d … the Spirit of G-d hovering over the waters … And the L-RD God … so … If Yeshua is the L-RD – then He Is G-d … the Creator of ALL things worthy of our adoration, praise and worship. With Blessings In Hashem,June Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:49:12 +0000 To: junevolk777@hotmail.com

    • Junzey The fact that followers of Jesus try to convert lovers of God is more than enough to tell you that Jesus is not God.

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

    • Fred says:

      Junzey, you are insinuating Greek language generalities into Hebrew specifics. The word translated “lord”, ( boss, leader, magistrate) in the Greek does not equate to YHVH, or Hashem, in the Hebrew. Just as a middle English serf that said, “Yes, my lord” to a land baron was not saying the land baron is HaShem. Jesus, although a false prophet, rebel and lawbreaker, never claimed to be HaShem, or even part of HaShem. To try to say you believe in a triune god but not the trinity is just a matter of slippery semantics. be a Christian or be a Noachide or a Jew. To try to mix Judaism and Christianity is self-contradicting. They have almost nothing in common and are opposites.

    • Dina says:

      June, can you explain to me why you don’t worship Moses as a god? God said to Moses, “He will be your speaker and you will be his leader” but the word for leader here is “E-lohim,” i.e., “god” (Exodus 4:16).

      God Himself said Moses is a god! So you should worship him too!

      • bible819 says:

        We conclude as Christians that Isaiah 43:11 means I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. In other words, That God is the only Savior, thus the Hebrew you call Jesus is, My Savior then he Must be God. There is no saving activity outside of God.

        As Jesus said, I and the Father are one.

        Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

        Moses never claimed to be 1 with the Father.

        Nor has anyone every claimed that.

        Glory to Him forever. Amen

        • Dina says:

          Hi Bibbley, long time no speak.

          Joshua also means savior. Does that mean that everyone named Joshua, including the biblical one, is also God?

          I mean, seriously!

          • Dina says:

            By the way, Bibs, if you knew Hebrew, you would know that the word “yeshua” means salvation or redemption, not my savior or my redeemer (that would be “moshi’i” or “go’ali”).

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            What about Yasha? This could be the root word of salvation

            We know what Yesha’Yah means. God is Salvation.

            Yeshua is great to.

            All I know is that He is the 1 who is my righteousness before the Judge.

            Point being, Jesus said he was 1 with the Father.

            Pretty amazing concept.

          • bible819 says:

            Only 1 Salvation praises the Father throughout the entire World.

            Christ turned the world upside down. 2000 years later-

            As it is written,

            so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard (shall they understand.)<<<<<<<<<

            The idea "Even if Israel went there own way before Christ was born"

            What does it mean for God to say that he acts, “for my name’s sake,” or, “for the sake of my praise,” or, “for my own sake”?

            Its always been about HIM. His Glory. He will not be DEFAMED.

        • Fred says:

          Bible819,
          With all due respect, and no insult intended, you should learn your own book a little better before you try to debate Tanakh with educated Torah students and Rav B.

          1- Not only does the name Jesus NOT mean he was God, he was not even the only Jesus mentioned in the New Testament ( Acts 13:6). Yehoshua (Joshua) was a common Jewish name in the 1st century CE, as it has been for thousands of years to this day. All of the variations that Christians try to insinuate into that name- Yeshua, Yeshuah, Yashuah- have no documentary support whatsoever, and are desperate attempts to make Jesus’ name unique and meaningful and “sound more divine”.
          2- “I and my Father are one” is not a statement of divinity or true “Oneness” in the intended Christian metaphysical sense. The same Jesus said to his disciples, “You are to be one, EVEN AS ( in the same way) I and my Father are one” ( John 17:22). He did not intend his words to be understood as meaning one multi-person disciple or “disciplehead”. Jesus was speaking of his devotion to God and the surrender of his will ( which he failed at from time to time just like we do). It was a statement of a dedication to emotional and mental unity with God.
          3- Jesus did not claim to be God. God was always someone other than himself. He prayed to God, “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”. Jesus is saying here that the Father is the only true God. Paul said, “There is only one God, the Father…”( 1Cor 8:6)

          • LarryB says:

            Fred
            What about: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

          • Concerned Reader says:

            Fred, in the context of John’s gospel, all the oneness references are indeed references to Jesus’ alleged deity, because that is the author’s starting premise.

            I think we underestimate the prevalence of that deity doctrine in Christian sources.

            Even the nontrinitarian Christologies of early Christianity, and those today are full of deific references, and much work is done to try and explain away the obvious fact that Jesus is still percieved as divine/essential even if not called G-D by various groups.

            You can see this clearly among thinkers like sir anthony buzzard.

            He says Jesus isnt G-d on the one hand, but then on the other he says things like

            “if G-d ordains that the world serve and revere his sinless son/lamb, then im ok with that.”

            IE even if you say Jesus isnt G-d, its clear beyond doubt that all Christian sources regardless of their stripe consider him as essential when relating to G-d or pleasing him. To put it simply, he is treated as G-d in all but name.

            Its like I said about that agent angel in the Torah.

            Even if you dont call it G-d, even if you explain its nature as “just an angel,” there are still texts like Judges 6 where that agent is treated as interchangeable with G-d, or seems to be an essential aspect of the narrative, even when the agent seems uneseccary to make the text’s overall point.

          • Concerned Reader
            Epiphanius was only one Christian writer who wrote about the Ebionites – He wrote relatively late and the earlier writers give us to understand that they viewed Jesus as a man (Hippolytus of Rome). Historically no one used passages like Judges 6 to deify anyone before the motivation to deify (magnetism to a charismatic individual) existed and in a Jewish context it usually takes time for this to happen. Anthony Buzzard is coming in after years of Christian tradition.

  2. Fred says:

    Larry, John 8:58 is not speaking of literally existing before Avraham. He is speaking of his belief that messiah was fore-ordained. This is found in the words, ” Abraham looked forward to my day”. context. And the translation is skewed. It should read “I ( messiah) was before Abraham”. The I AM in all caps was added by translators and the sentence form is also a mistranslation. It is copula in the Greek, no different than if they had written what Jesus said on the cross as “Thirsty I AM”.

    CR- Baloney. Read the context and the Greek. Jesus’ supposed deity are translated into the text. The non-trinitarians of today still accept Jesus as divine, even though they do not believe in the trinity, but they do so because they still want to be considered “real Christians”. They believe Jesus was “the only begotten god”. Thy want it both ways. I belonged to one such sect, and studied the issue for years. It took over a hundred years before anyone thought Jesus was God. The historical Jesus never claimed to be God,even if later writers and translators did.

    • LarryB says:

      Fred
      I do not see how you get that (his belief in the messiah) in the context of what he is saying before/or after 8:58.

    • Concerned Reader says:

      Your conjecture as to the “real reasons” why non trinitarians would call Jesus G-d or divine notwithstanding, the fact that they do so proves my point. The Christian sources themselves portray Jesus as divne, whatever way you try to parse it. If you are right that they do so in appeasement you acvuse them all of bearing false witness just to avoid being called heretics.

      I too was raised non trinitarian, and we all know that non trinitarians have to do exegetical summersaults to try to make the NT avoid saying what it says explicitly. Jesus is divine son of G-d.

      When people translate John 1:1 as “the word was a god” and then apply to it some ambiguous philonic sense of divine wisdom, they then have to then bend over backwards straining themselves in later verses in order to explain how this copncept applies to Jesus in John’s estimation. If only exegetes had heard of Okham’s razor. The text applied titles and roles of G-d to Jesus (such as creation,) because to that author, he is G-d.

      Its not a matter of these people wanting to appear to trinitarians as (true christians,) its them trying to theologically downplay concepts found in the new testament because they strive for a more clear cut monotheism.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Rabbi, it doesnt take many years (or much work ) to make that leap is what im getting at.

        You say that deification didnt occur before there was magnetism. Even if I granted that premise, that kind of magnetism is already latent in Torah concerning Torah’s figures, ie there is precedent. A Jesus or a shabbatai tzvi is plugged into a preexisting fabric of charismatic figures, culminating in the ultimate charismatic, the messiah concept.

        Torah itself is chalk full of charismatic agent figures that spoke the words of G-d, in many ways being treated interchangably as we have seen. In fact, if we factor in second temple literature, many such figures as Moses, Adam, Enoch, and Elijah all reached states of near deification without Christians being present.

        The Enoch Metatron tradition illustrates that point. Its as I said above, non trinitarians make much effort to try and explain how Jesus bears deific title and role in the text, in spite of not being G-d.

        Rabbis apparently had to spill similar amounts of ink and effort about Meatron.

        • Concerned Reader\ The first example of that would be when the people make a golden calf to replace Moses – the lesson of the Torah is very clear – your heart belongs to God – how many songs of the Psalms are dedicated to Metatron and contrast that with the amount of songs in Christian liturgy that are dedicated to Jesus.

          1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Concerned Reader says:

            The first example of that would be when the people make a golden calf to replace Moses

            Lets run with that comparison rabbi, namely lets focus on when you said TO REPLACE MOSES. You say, the calf replaced Moses.

            This means Moses held a kosher status of veneration similar but not identical to that of the calf before the calf was created, IE what devotion previously belonged rightly to Moses as shaliach was transferred incorrectly to the calf. The position that belonged to the appointed Shaliach was applied to an object made by human hands. This illustrates my point.

            If I look at Maimonides’ principles of faith, and the place that Moses occupies therein, while it is absolutely true that Moses is not prayed to, there is no human being on earth that is granted as much veneration by the Jewish tradition as is Moses, that’s why his grave was hidden. According to Maimonides, Moses had an experience of G-dliness higher than any human that existed before or will exist after him. The level of veneration can go no higher.

            The idolatry that took place in Chabad was drawn (according to their own explanations,) from examples of the life of Moses and the righteous, even the concept of the lofty soul that they so rely upon. As I said above, Acher probably knew the orthodox interpretation of Metatron’s role, but that explanation simply did not solve the problem he saw.

            This is what I mean by a precedent. You have in your own Bible persons who are granted extreme levels of veneration, in spite of the fact that they are not G-d, and when the righteous form of veneration occurs, G-d offers no rebuke to the people involved. G-d was not upset when Moses (the true shalaich) was obeyed without question.

            The agent speaks with G-d’s voice, (or as the mystics would say, the Shekinah spoke from the throat of Moses.)

            Take the agent in Judges 6 that we were talking about. Gideon gives the sacrifice to the agent, (even though G-d himself is there, and he could have presented it to him) then Gideon says to Hashem, “my goodness, I just might die because I have seen your agent.” Wouldn’t it be more prudent to say “my gosh, G-d its you! I might die because I am interacting with you?”

            If it is unkosher to focus on the agent, then scripture itself has a very bad way of illustrating that, as evidenced by the several Jesus like replicas that have been made.

            Saying, “i don’t pray to it,” doesn’t change the material evidence of extreme veneration that the Bible provides precedence for. I actually believe that some commentators associate Psalm 121 with Metatron, so there is that. Metatron bears G-d’s name, and G-d and his name are one.

            I’m not trying to be a pest, I’m just noting that Christianity and Christians are a symptom of something that Tanakh itself allows to be built.

          • Concerned Reader You missed the point – the veneration of Moses was NOT kosher and that is why it lead to the calf And I am not accusing you of being a pest – your comments are appreciated 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

    • “Larry, John 8:58 is not speaking of literally existing before Avraham. He is speaking of his belief that messiah was fore-ordained. This is found in the words, ” Abraham looked forward to my day”. context. And the translation is skewed. It should read “I ( messiah) was before Abraham”. The I AM in all caps was added by translators and the sentence form is also a mistranslation. It is copula in the Greek, no different than if they had written what Jesus said on the cross as “Thirsty I AM”.”

      yes , you are right, it could be interpreted many ways

      notice earlier in the same passage the jewish people accuse him of taking his powers from the devil?

      then he tries to say “before abraham i have been”

      so in jewish mind how is it possible that satanic being such as jesus can think of him being of a higher status? higher status than abraham? satan?
      this equals blasphemy.

  3. Fred says:

    CR. I have debated trinitarian scholars and apologists, PhDs and Masters of Theology, of major denominations, who are far above your level. Frankly, I do not have the time or the energy to go through this again. John wrote in that same first chapter, “God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare.” John 1:18 Young’s Literal Translation. The rest is about letting the book be its own translator and using both literary and historical context. Enjoy! 🙂

    • bible819 says:

      Fred,

      You should just stick to the Torah.

      How you could debate something you will never be able to understand?

      As Jesus said, 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,

      In other words, You can’t understand Christianity unless the Father draws to his son.

      All you have is human logic which means it is foolishness to you.

      Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

      Point being, You don’t have the spirit of Christ therefore you will never understand.

      As God said,

      8″For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

      and else where

      19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.

      You historically fact check the Bible as if God is not the same God. .

      Jesus did not claim he was God? Wow

      I guess the Jews were not trying kill for him blasphemy either?lol

      As far as Paul-

      Theirs are the patriarchs,>>>>>>>> and from them proceeds the human descent of>>>>>>>>> Christ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

      Glory to him who is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
      Amen

    • Concerned Reader says:

      Fred, allow me to clarify. I am not debating your Greek credentials or skills, so respectfully, there is no need to try and downplay mine or for me to bolster my own. I explained to you, I was raised without trinitarianism. Im very aware that the text does not require a trinitarian reading.

      I think you have missed the subtlty of my point. I am well aware that scripture should interpret scripture. I am well aware that the New Testament Greek can support a non trinitarian reading. I myself have made comment to that effect.

      It comes down to an issue of the New Testament’s own meta narrative. When i hear a non trinitarian explanation of Christian doctrine and spirituality, there is still no fundamental discernable change in the base relationship between the non trinitarian and the christian deity.

      Jesus is still just as foundational to the non trinitarian’s view of G-d as he is to the trinity believer and his view of G-d.

      The non trinitarian still applies deific titles like word of G-d and image to Jesus, still calls him “only begotten,” still believes that Jesus is the truest sense in which G-d the father chooses to make himself known, and still views his shed blood at calvary as the essential tool for redemption.

      So, respectfully, whatever reading you give the New Testament is immaterial to the fact that Jesus is a deified figure in Christian sources. The argument between trinitarian and non trinitarian is one of ontology, not a question of Jesus’ titles or role.

      When Jesus says, “he who has seen me has seen the father,” the intent of the author of John ‘s gospel is made exceedingly plain regardless of anybodies theologically or linguisticly motivated hermeneutics and that is my main point.

      Its as I said to rabbi B. Whatever interpretation a person chooses to employ concerning these texts does not change the material fact that in the Bible, (both in the Tanakh and the Christian Bible,) there is a figure or figures who in key verses is called G-d, despite the fact that this being is not the father.

      Biblical figures treat certain agents as though they were G-d himself for a day. Ontological debates are beside the pont in that situation. Someobe who isnt G-d is being given that title and role regardless of apopogetic, team, or persuasion.

      Even rabbi B, (and the rabbis of the Talmud Bavli) acknowledged the danger of this phenomenon if these verses are not carfully, (some might even say expertly) exegeted.

      My overall argument however (based on what we know from history,) is that the problem doesnt go away regardless of whichever exegetical tradition you follow.

      Whether an agent like a Rebbe, a ShabbataiTzvi, an Abulafia, an angel, or a Jesus is called G-d merely by a metaphorical appelation or literally, it does not change the material fact or the effect of such a title being applied. Do you understand now?

      Take the episode of Elisha Ben Aboyah as an example. You have here a rabbinic student who knows the proper exegetical explanation/tradition. He sees the angel Metaron recording Israel’s merits. BUT the angel is seated. ONLY THE KING SITS ENTHRONED IN HEAVEN, so, Elisha (even though he knows what the rabbis claim is the correct reading,) says there are two powers in heaven. Regardless of how you read or explain what is happening, someone who isnt hashem is being treated as if he was.

  4. Fred says:

    Bible819,
    You proceed from a false assumption. I was a Christian pastor and a high school Bible teacher. I wrote books and published articles on New Testament theology and christology.

    Theirs are the patriarchs,>>>>>>>> and from them proceeds the human descent of>>>>>>>>> Christ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

    You took the context out and used a biased paraphrased interpretation. Shameful.

    Romans 9:4—-who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises, 5whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen. —-Young’s Literal Translation

    An ounce of intellectual honesty wouldn’t hurt. The concept of “Jesus as God” did not exist in Paul’s time. It came almost 200 hundred years later.

    And then, of course, you pull the whole “You’re not a Christian so you can’t understand the NT because you don’t have the holy spirit” fallacy.

  5. Fred says:

    CR, My point is to direct Christians such as Bible819 to what their own book teaches. I am not here to debate the validity of various commentators and their opinions. So you grew up a JW? Because to my knowledge only JWs translate John 1:1 as “a god”. The are several quality translations of the Greek that translate the text “And God was the word”. Also, most Christian NTs leave out the definite article “ho” in verse one. In other words, it should read “In the beginning was THE God and the word was with God and God was the word”. “Ho theos” is NEVER used in connection with Jesus in the entire NT. Finally, the fact that the author of John combines Genesis with pagan Greek concepts in 1:1 is noteworthy and really says all there needs to be said.

    • Concerned Reader says:

      You didnt address a single point that I brought up, namely, that how you translate your Greek text doesnt change the text’s meaning or overall viewpoint. Jesus is still the central deific figure of the New Testament hwever you translate it. The Logos became flesh. To paraphrase anthony buzzard, G-d’s perfect plan became Jesus, who is still viewed as sinless lamb, still glorified to the point that all knees will bow to Jesus, still the only means of atonment or entry to heaven.

      No I wasnt raised Jehovas witness, i just picked an example of a group who tries to read the Greek in a way that misses the forrest for the trees as unitarians do. You are trying to parse what the Christian Bible “really says” when what that book clearly does is make Jesus the centeal focus. It doesnt matter what you say the Greek says, unitarians are still Christians with a very theological christ.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Fred, some of the greatest non trinitarians still agree that Jesus is called G-d in terms of people seeing the father in him, in terms of him being the adoni of psalm 110:1 to whom all will prostrate themselves. IE a non trinitarian still gives Jesus a pass for worshipful devotion.

    • bible819 says:

      Fred,

      You gave 1 version to support your side. lol

      You then gave your feelings.

      Its true that you don’t have spirit. You have no faith. The elementary foundation to Christianity faith.

      Fred- What did Jesus say?

      >>>>>>>Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? >>>>>>>>Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. <<<<<<<<<How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?<<<<<<>>>>>>Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You<<<<<. 2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.

      Equality.

      You can't dispute scripture-

    • bible819 says:

      Fred,

      Heres a start-

      4 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.-

      According my Scripture what spirit do you have?

      1 John 4:3<<<<<

      • Fred says:

        Problem: There are literally thousands of different opposite and contradicting opinions about your scriptures from “spirit-filled” Christians alone. It is the very epitome of a circular argument fallacy. Even among your own religion everyone argues that it is THEIR interpretation that is guided by the spirit and whoever disagrees, at best does not have the holy spirit and at worst is being used by the devil to deceive the church. Don’t even try to deny that. I was a Christian for years, and every doctrinal discussion eventually boils down to “Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And since you do not see it my way, you lack the holy spirit”. Try to understand that every time you revert to 1John 4:3, the same tactic is used between Evangelicals and Mormons, between Calvinists and Wesleyans, between premillenialists and postmillenialists, between those who support women’s ordination and those who don’t, and between trinitarians and non trinitarians.

        But to answer your question, I would have the right spirit because I accept the Torah as written, without reading forbidden and pagan-inspired concepts into it, such as a human sacrifice for corporate sin. It would be you who does not have the spirit because the simple religion and plan of salvation God gave all people before Jesus was born is foolishness to you.

        I think we would agree that King David was spirit-filled. Go read Psalm 119 and get back to me about who is being led by God and who is defying His words. Read Jeremiah’s and Ezekiel’s prophecies of the messianic age and get back to me about who is being led by the spirit and who is denying the plain words of God.

        • bible819 says:

          Fred,

          Its good to know that you were a christian. As you know then, It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, to be brought back to repentance.

          You mentioned those prophets- you fail to see God the spirit, the power of his words, the command they must follow.

          As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me.

          You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you.

          Did the people recognized them at the time as prophets?lol

          You think God would wait 2700 years to state his provision?

          Israel kills My Messiah whom you deny, and are exiled 2000 years?

          I hold that the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. Is not Israel.

          When God pours out the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced.

          You should asked God.

          • Dina says:

            Bibs, it’s impossible to have an honest debate with someone who rejects “human logic” as he calls it and relies on being “spirit-filled.”

            Such circular reasoning absolves you of the responsibility to examine your beliefs in a spirit of honest truth seeking and is nothing more than a convenient argument to shore up your beliefs whenever you are fairly challenged.

            Why are you here? We Jews and Noahides are not, according to you, filled with the “spirit.” Do you believe that sneering at our capacity for reason and telling us we won’t understand until we are filled with the spirit will give you the result you want (whatever that is)? Do you believe you have the power to fill us with the spirit? Why are you here, Bibs?

            Why do you cite Scripture to support your beliefs if you don’t believe in human logic?

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            No Prophet spoke with out the Holy Spirit. Humans did not provide there own interpretation.

            As you see, Moses had to share his God given spirit with 70 elders. Then they had the power to prophesy.

            Elijah had to leave before Elisha was spirit filled.

            And so on.

            We hold that Christ whom God loved broke the barrier so that all who accepted Christ would be baptist with the Holy Spirit. Hence is why I speak in Tongues. A language that only speaks to God.

            I know the Truth. And that is Yeshua the Hebrew is Gods word.

            As you see with Every prophet, ” The word of the Lord came to me” How do you suppose that happen?

            I hold that ” Then he said to me, “This is the (word) of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, Not by might>>>>> nor by power,>>>>> but by>>>>> My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts.

            This story is Only about God. and nothing is accomplished with out him.

  6. Concerned Reader says:

    Concerned Reader You missed the point – the veneration of Moses was NOT kosher

    Moses was not the agent of G-d whom the Shekinah spoke from the throat of? I think you miss my point. Whatever the calf worshipers thought of the calf as a replacement for Moses, was previously applied to Moses as agent without any objections being voiced.

    • Concerned Reader says:

      Moses was the true servant of G-d who spoke as the agent of G-d, and who in Orthodox kosher sources is granted an extreme state of veneration without objection such as Rambam’s description of him shows. I am not saying that anyone worships Moses, but I’m saying that the righteous are elevated to such a great height as to make deification very easy indeed.

      Its as Fred once said. Over and over the Tanakh says to worship G-d alone, that G-d does not share glory, etc. but then we have example after example of agent persons filling G-d’s shoes for a day. So, eventually a person conflates the two.

      Its like when I look at the Catholic doctrines about saints, (who are not prayed to in Catholic circles.) When I hear Catholics speak of the merit of the saints, its striking how similar this Catholic tradition is to doctrine in Judaism about Tzadikim and zechut avot. Idolatry does not require that someone be viewed as G-d in order to be idolatry.

    • Concerned Reader But the whole point of the calf story is that the attitude that these people had toward Moses was wrong and was a misunderstanding of their covenant with God. 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  7. Concerned Reader says:

    The point I’m trying to make rabbi is that well before the calf incident, Moses said things, did things, was called things, etc. by G-d and humans which gave the impression and accomplished a cementing of veneration in the people’s minds, and none of it was deemed even remotely objectionable by Moses or Hashem up until the calf incident. As I mentioned earlier, Maimonides (a completely Kosher source) describes Moses in very exalted language, without any objections.

    Moses was called Elohim before Pharoah (Exodus 7:1)
    Moses speaks interchangeably as the divine agent (Deuteronomy 11)
    Moses acts as intercessor/mediator in a functional way for the Israelite nation (Exodus 20:19)

    As you know, Judaism has its doctrines about the Tzaddikim, which are deemed unobjectionable until the line to worshiping someone is crossed. The issue that I see is, the earliest Christians didn’t worship Jesus, nor Chabad the Rebbe, but they still venerated them in this fashion, just as Judaism allows for all the other Tzadikim without raising objections. Look at how venerated Elijah the prophet is in Jewish tradition without any issues or objections being raised by anybody.

    My issue is, your Bible sets the precedent for all of this, and doesn’t really object to it until a line is crossed. But the kicker is, scripture walks you to the line multiple times.

    You can look to an agent for help, hear him being called “G-d” in some metaphorical sense, you can ask him to intercede with hashem on your behalf, you can go to his grave to pray, etc. none of which is a problem according to your Bible until you pray to this person.

    My point is, its your tradition that has allowed you to walk right up to the doorstep of this supposedly frowned upon action, and sit there. It says, “just don’t walk through the door.” But it gives you the map to the door, it walks you right up to it, and sanctions it all, until someone actually walks through.

    http://www.breslov.org/why-a-tzaddik-why-rebbe-nachman-why-uman/

    (this site exemplifies exactly what I mean. You have all kinds of accepted orthodox sources which walk you directly to a very high state of veneration of people, without any objection or charge of idol worship being made.

    As I said before, If Christians were all Ebionites, Christians could still do all the same things they presently do, but the difference would be, “we technically don’t pray to Jesus, we just respect him a lot,” and you would have little ground to call it idol worship.

    • Fred says:

      Which is why your point has no bearing on anything, CR. Christianity worships Jesus as one third of the one God, period. Anything else is not considered Christianity and to hold any other view is to forfeit eternal salvation. The ebionites were/are considered a heretical cult by the surviving branch of the religion. This point that you insist on making has had no value whatsoever for almost two millenia. If the purpose of your point is to foster “tolerance” then take that argument to the Christians who condemn to hellfire anyone who does not believe Jesus is God.

      • The Real Messianic says:

        You crossed the door Fred!

        I must admit CR that you have a good point, and Fred, maybe if you would read your own scriptures, you would realise that there is ONE G-d and also, one mediator between man and G-d. See, G-d and the mediator are not the same! Also, look at that verse:

        For He (G-d) “has put everything under his (Jesus) feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

        But wait a minute you will say, let me check at gotquestion to try to find an explanation, because other passages say that Jesus is a god! Well, that’s just another proof that the non-testament is not inspired!

        • bible819 says:

          Jesus said he was the I AM. and a King.

          Also, What did Jesus say-

          >>>>>>>>>>>>>I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has >>>>>seen Me has seen the Father.<<<<<<< How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

          Not inspired? You don't know scripture- What does it say?

          "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

          Will your messiah to come be other than God? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

          No one has ever done what Jesus did on earth.>>> Not even close.

          If you had a Son; is he any less from you?

          You are not just s fleshly body that will die but a spirit.

          Point being, God is spirit.

          • The Real Messianic says:

            No he never said “I am the I AM”, he only said “I am” in Greek! If I go to an interview and the call my name, and I answer “I am” does this mean I think I’m G-d? No, and you have no more proof that Jesus thought he was!

            For the second verse, someone could argue that Jesus only meant that he was G-d representative. If one of the king’s messenger arrive and tells you a message, but you ask him to see the king, the messenger might just tell you “Hey, I am here with the king’s message and his seal, why don’t you believe me? Seeing me, is just as seeing the king!” I mean, it’s not that hard to understand, especially that other places clearly stated that Jesus was NOT G-d!

            “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.”

            Translation “I HaSHEM, YVHV, am the LORD, and there is no space for your saviour JESUS! His Glory, HE won’t share with Yeshu, nor is praise with others!

            “No one has ever done what Jesus did on earth.”

            What did he do during his life time, he had 12 followers and he died. Ezekiel 19 say that Jesus cannot pay for my sins, so what did he do?

            “If you had a Son; is he any less from you?”
            If I have a son, is he me?

            Point is, G-d is NOT a man, worshipping a man is worshipping an idol!

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Fred, it has extreme bearing for this reason.

        you yourself said that you could understand how Jesus got deified in light of the veneration displayed in Christian sources, compared to how much the Bible stresses and emphasizes that G-d is alone. You noted how the Hebrew Bible always says G-d alone is to be worshiped, so it wasn’t surprising that the Christians said he had to be G-d because of how venerated he was.

        My point was that biblical literature itself leads a person to this extreme state of veneration of various people, to the point that people will eventually conflate G-d and one of these alleged righteous ones, because otherwise there appears to be a massive contradiction when you see how much veneration there actually is.

        ITS happened more than once in Jewish history. I’m not saying its right, I’m saying you can’t be surprised that it happens.

        In other words, if I examine Judaism from an anthropological perspective, I see that Jesus is not the issue at all. The bible itself gets people to the point of looking at various people as though they were like superman or some kind of angelic metaphorical G-d image/mouthpiece.

        If figures in the Torah can speak as G-d’s mouthpiece, or say the words “I am G-d,” a theological doctrine like the trinity is absolutely inevitable if you still want to claim you are a monotheist and to avoid massive contradictions.

        The Hebrew bible states plainly that G-d is alone and that he does not share glory.

        And yet, time and again as we’ve seen, the Hebrew Bible and Jewish literature clearly show that G-d has mouthpieces, super angels, chosen agents, and that he often treats the agent as interchangeable with himself, etc.

        it only takes time and some thought for someone to say eventually, “one of these guys must actually be a manifestation of G-d, or I have a problem.”

        • Fred says:

          “If figures in the Torah can speak as G-d’s mouthpiece, or say the words “I am G-d,” a theological doctrine like the trinity is absolutely inevitable if you still want to claim you are a monotheist and to avoid massive contradictions.”

          Only if one has absolutely NO understanding of Torah or the Jewish religion, or even the concept of fulfilling a role as messenger. If a person is reading me a telegram, I realize that if the telegram reader says, “I am your wife”, he is not saying he is my wife. The only difference is that the prophet or angel is not reading a sheet of paper. The people receiving these messages in the Tanakh knew who the message was really from and did not tend to worship the messenger. And if he did, he was corrected by the prophet or messenger. Common sense should play a part in this, CR.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            Only if one has absolutely NO understanding of Torah or the Jewish religion, or even the concept of fulfilling a role as messenger.

            That’s a copout, it ignores the historical data, and the textual sources, and pardon me, no offense meant, but you fool yourself.

            Tell the Chabad messianists that they didn’t ‘t understand Judaism Fred. Tell that to the Sabbateans, tell it to Elisha Ben Abuyah, tell it to Philo of Alexandria. Tell Gideon in Judges chapter 6 that the agent angel is not worth making such a fuss about, because even though hashem is present in the same narrative, Gideon says “oh my gosh! Hashem look, An Angel, I can’t believe I saw one!” If its some plain old angel, his reaction was overblown.

            Contrary to the opinion that people who believed these things were ignorant of Judaism, history proves otherwise, independent of both of our opinions. I agree with you completely that there is a clear difference between a messenger and the one giving the message, but again my point is, even when a person understood that role properly as being that of a messenger, the outcome of veneration or over emphasis is the same.

            Rabbi B has pointed out that charisma might play a role here, and I don’t disagree. However, When Acher talked about “two powers,” or Philo talked about the Logos, this was far from attaching yourself to a charismatic leader, it was a doctrine. The messenger/angel of the presence is in the prayer book, that’s presence at a liturgical level. Jacob invokes the angel to bless the lads.

            As I pointed out, there are many people who don’t pray to Jesus as divine, but he is still a focus to them even as only a man. We see this in modern Judaism with Rebbe’s and Tzaddikim. We see it among Catholics with the Pope.

            Sure, they are not seen as G-d, but if you feel comfortable traveling to another country annually just to pray at a grave site, its much a similar thing.

            If G-d says “obey this messenger as if it were me,” which he does in scripture, it doesn’t really matter if you pray to it or not, because a sense of devotion has already been set in a person’s mind.

            Muslims do not pray to Muhammad, but some of the extremeists will have no problem killing someone for drawing a picture. If that’s not deification proper, I don’t know what is.

            You are inadvertently focusing on the technical definitions of deification and idolatry, while the “I can’t believe its not butter” version of the same activities go on without any objection being sanctioned in scripture and liturgy and many other sources.

            I’m not talking about forces of nature here. I am saying that in the liturgy, in accepted and kosher traditions, there is veneration that walks such a fine line as to be meaningless.

            Tell me, is there a figure in the Hebrew Bible who saved Israel from catastrophic sin, ascended to heaven, took on a glorified nature, and who it is believed will come back at the end of time?

            Answer, yep! Elijah the prophet. Is he prayed to? No! Venerated? Without question.

          • Concerned Reader I would have no problem saying that the Chabad Messianics do not understand Judaism, neither did the Sabbateans who deified Shabtai Tzvi, Just because you were born and educated in a religion doesn’t mean that you can’t get caught up in the details and miss the core covenant – and as it relates to Acher – Acher knew that his conclusion was a rebellion against Judaism.

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

    • Concerned Reader It is not only righteous people that are prone to veneration. God imbued many of His creations with extreme power and beauty in a way that arouses awe and veneration in the hearts of men – these include but are not limited to the sun the moon mighty mountains etc. Yes – God does give greatness to His creations and yes, people do misunderstand this greatness and often deify these creations. But the underlying message of the Torah and the covenant that Israel shares with God is that these are not objects of worship – and the difference that you see as a mere nothing (just a crossing of threshold) – is all the difference in the world

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  8. Fred says:

    >”I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

    Will your messiah to come be other than God? No one has ever done what Jesus did on earth.>>> Not even close.

    What did Jesus do that nobody else has ever done? And do you have any solid evidence that he even did them?

  9. Fred says:

    “”I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

    Will your messiah to come be other than God? ”

    No, he won’t. The word you are hanging is the word “savior”. That means deliverer in the generic sense, not “saving sinners’ souls from eternal hellfire”. You are insinuating your own core beliefs into a book you do not understand.

    So answer me this, who delivered/saved the Israelites from Egypt? Was it Moshe or God? If Moshe, then Moshe was God according to your interpretation of the text. If this text does not apply to Moshe and we cannot conclude that Moshe MUST be God, then it cannot apply to Jesus for all the same reasons. But frankly, according to the plain meaning, this text is solid proof that Jesus was neither savior nor God because according to your interpretation, in order to be savior he had to be God, and any credit that would be given to God for deliverance was bestowed instead upon the man Jesus. And that continues to this day. Your belief is that a man saved sinners by his own human sacrifice, therefore that man must be God. I agree that he is either both or none. The early Christian church figured that out too and adjusted their christology accordingly, resulting in the Council of Nicea and the Nicene Creed.

    Also, What did Jesus say-

    “I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

    So you believe that Jesus is God the Father? How does that square with your trinitarian belief? Doesn’t John say, in the last gospel written, that “nobody has seen God at any time”? Didn’t you earlier reference the Torah text where God said “Nobody can see my face and live”? You’re confusing me. Where exactly do you stand?

    • bible819 says:

      “”I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

      Will your messiah to come be other than God? ”

      1. Point being, your messiah will be a man. My messiah is 1 with God, his Word.

      So answer me this, who delivered/saved the Israelites from Egypt? Was it Moshe or God? If Moshe, then Moshe was God according to your interpretation of the text.

      2.
      -God almost killed Moshe. Then Israel almost killed Moshe. But they did actually Kill Yeshua.

      3.

      Where exactly do you stand?

      “I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

      I believe/hold that Jesus always existed.

      I believe that the Father thinks the Word that come from his mouth and the spirit produces the word that is Jesus.

      The creation of the World. Spirit hovering, thought, Word makes it exist from nothing.

      At that right time in history a body was prepared for him to enter into the world.

      The relationship Between the Father and Son joined together in a human body to bring about a provision to the Father’s glory.

      **** At that point in history Israel was lost. The Law broken that only established what sin was<<<<<<< God was not be defamed by Israel's prostitution

      *******The covenant with Abraham was faith with the sign of circumcision. Only after Abraham obeyed was it accredited to him as righteousness.

      The faith aspect would be renewed. The death of humanity rest on 1 man Adam.

      Life would also come from a Man.

      What did Jesus claim to be true-

      His name was the Fathers name, He only did, spoke and acted in what the Father had him do. Thus being 1 with the Father.

      —–
      *You mentioned human sacrifice as if God killed him. No the SIN of man killed him. In doing so, an innocent Body could not remain dead, nor could the sting of sin remain on him.

      Hence why it is said, if you eat of this tree you will surely DIE. What died?

      But Fred you know this is true.

      • Dina says:

        Someone once told me that if you try to reason with a two-year-old you will always lose since two-year-olds are not bound by the rules of logic. It is pointless to reason with someone who scorns “human logic” and uses gobbledy-gook to support his beliefs.

        Bibs, there is no kind way to say this. Your “reasoning” is incomprehensible, spirit-filled or otherwise.

        • bible819 says:

          DIna,

          What do you dispute?

          I gave you volume of my Spirit Filled thoughts.

          We know David had Spirit filled thoughts.

          They bring Revelation.

          As for the insults-

          I could say you are narrow minded. Kidding aside, I know that you are well taught.

          Fred knows what I’m talking about.

          I wonder if Fred spoke in the language of human and angels after he was baptized.

          • Dina says:

            Bibs, all I need to know about you is this statement:

            “What do you dispute?

            I gave you volume of my Spirit Filled thoughts.”

            So the question is, who should I listen to?

            Should I listen to God? Or should I listen to someone so arrogant he calls himself “Bible” and assumes I should listen to him because he is filled with “the Spirit”?

            It’s a no brainer.

          • bible819 says:

            * God-given spirit filled thoughts- His glory not mine. I’m nothing but his child.

          • Dina says:

            Whoa, Bible, I have news for you. I am His child too. In fact, I belong to the only people He called His firstborn son (Exodus 4:22). But I do not claim authority by virtue of my spirit-filled thoughts; instead I point to our God-given Scriptures and I appeal to your God-given common sense and ability to reason.

            Do not allow your belief in the inerrancy of your amazing thoughts to cloud that ability.

          • Dina says:

            By the way, I’ve spoken to loads of Christians who, like you, sat upon their high horse, proclaimed they were–unlike lowly, narrow-minded, spiritually blind me–filled with the spirit, and therefore I should listen to them. Funnily enough, they all held opposing and conflicting doctrines (one was a Unitarian, one did not accept the inerrancy of the Bible except for the passages that were convenient to prop up his beliefs, etc.).

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            It comes down what is based on truth.

            There is no doubt that the Christ was cut off from Life mentioned in Daniel 9.

            He will come again.

            These blogs mention Christianity.

            Don’t be surprised when these blogs mention The Way, if you become enlightened of the hope we have in Christ

            Read our book, and you will come across the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

            **** What might seem arrogant to you. Is indeed the very aspect of evidence of the knowledge of Truth.

          • Dina says:

            There is really no point in talking to you. You are preaching. You are not engaging.

          • bible819 says:

            Yes, this type of understanding would require you to learn the other book that this blog is discussing. I learned the 1st book. I believe in its 100% credibility. You disagree with the 2nd book that you haven’t read. I can see how you think its preachy.

            That is why I was talking to Fred. He has an Idea of what I’m saying.

          • Sharbano says:

            You left out the important point of that scripture. Not only will he be cut off But he Will Be No More.

          • Sharbano says:

            This is clearly evident upon comparing the same Hebrew phrases.

          • bible819 says:

            13“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,a coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

          • Dina says:

            Both Rabbi B. and I explained to you why you are so clearly misreading this passage. You are not listening, you are preaching.

            If you want to turn people off, you are going about it in exactly the right way.

          • Dina says:

            “I can see how you think it’s preachy.”

            I wasn’t talking about it; I was talking about you.

            Don’t assume I haven’t read your scripture. I’ve read a good deal of it. More than I could stomach.

          • Fred says:

            I do know what you are saying. Yes, I was a charismatic/pentecostal pastor until I saw through the baloney and tricks.The charismatic movement is full of guys like you who think they have special revelation that outweighs scripture, and that however they interpret scripture it must be the right interpretation because Jesus himself “showed” them the truth, even when the interpretation of scripture A directly contradicted the interpretation of scripture B. I wrote an entire published book on the problems, delusions and tactics of the charismatic movement.

            Question : why are the only people who speak in “tongues” after their baptism the ones who were taught they are supposed to? BTW, a study was done on “tongues” where hundreds of samples were taken from pentecostal church services around the world and were analyzed by top linguists. The conclusion was that in each part of the world the “tongues of angels” were always made up of the phonetic sounds of their native languages and that 99% were pure repetitive gibberish. The other 1% were known foreign languages the speaker was already familiar with, such as Greek or Hebrew. In other words, American “tongues” were nothing like “African tongues” , which were nothing like Asian “tongues”. Apparently God has angels of all different heavenly languages? Did the Babel experience take place in heaven as well?

            You mentioned David. Read Psalm 119, and think about those “spirit-filled thoughts”. Obviously the spirit guiding David was NOT the same as the spirit guiding you. God is not a fool or a student of Donald Trump.

            Dina,
            Bible819 is a charismatic/pentecostal. In that movement, one checks his brain at the door of the church. They are guided largely by their emotions and imagination. Scripture means nothing unless they think they can make their predetermined point by using it. They will draw as much inspiration and “truth” from a PB&J sandwich if they think God is speaking through it as they will from Proverbs, Amos or Numbers.

            Example: My old “apostle” once gave a testimony about how a rainbow appeared on the road in front of his car, and that this was a sign from God that , like Noah, he was to embark on a “new beginning”. He then assumed that this was God’s “seal of approval”, or “confirmed word”, that he should start his own church (which he was planning to do anyway).

            Facts: It had been dry for weeks and there was a sudden downpour. It was at an intersection of one of the busiest streets in Portland. The sun was just coming back out of the clouds as the storm passed and the road was still very wet. Can you figure out what happened by this information?

          • Dina says:

            So, Fred, I am right to say that it’s impossible to have an honest conversation with these guys. Thanks for the validation!

            Tell me what the sun coming out of the clouds is supposed to mean, wink, wink.

          • bible819 says:

            Fred:

            Did you speak in Tongues?

            Then you know that the Holy Spirit enables the Christ believer to speak to God.

            You also know that you should be careful not to make an eternal sin.

            For Example: Israel noticed a prophet about 10% percent time they were present.

            As it written,

            Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

            With that said, If i haven’t experienced the reality of Satan and the Truth of Christ I would have agreed with you.

            The Law doesn’t do anything but make mention of what sin it is.

            No one has passed the Law.

            A graceful God understood that.

            With Adam all died.

            Dina, A Son coming in the cloud is much more believable then only a remnant that needs to be saved coming in the clouds”

            “The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.”

            I guess they will save themselves. “Wink”

            “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced.

            I accepted the spirit of Grace.

            This is the nation that has not obeyed the Lord its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips.

  10. Concerned Reader says:

    Acher knew that his conclusion was a rebellion against Judaism.

    A rebellion against the prevailing interpretation, not against what he actually saw with his own eyes. In other words, the education they received did not answer what they saw as contradiction or issue.

    He stuck to his guns because he saw that the Bible gave him support to hold that opinion, without much work. He saw a being that was allowed to play G-d, so he took what he saw as a logical consistent step. If something that is not the father can have as much attention and an established place in the text and tradition, what does that mean?

    That’s the entire point. Its not that these groups don’t understand Judaism rabbi, its that the sacred text provides the fuel for both opinions yours and theirs. That’s the only way around it. The same thing happens in Islam concerning Muhammad. On the one hand the text of Quran highlights Muhammad’s imperfections, on the other, it points out that he is the messenger whose voice must be obeyed at the cost of all things.

  11. Fred says:

    Dina, when it does not rain for weeks, oil from the cars collects on the pavement, especially at intersections. When it rains for the first time, the water causes a rainbow effect in the oil. You’ve probably seen this in your own driveway.

    But yeah, you’re likely wasting your time with Bible819. The possibility that God led him to this website as a means of leading him to the discover the error of his beliefs probably has not even crossed his mind. Hopefully the lurkers glean something useful out of the exchange.

    • Dina says:

      I like that. I have indeed seen those signs from God many times, proof enough that these people ought to listen to me.

      • bible819 says:

        Christianity was mentioned. Without hesitation, I was there. I’m sure if Islam or Judiasm was mentioned my curiosity would not lead me to interject. A history listen is more interesting on A&E Networks.

        You noticed God started to reveal himself within the Spiritual Realm( Isaiah, Ezekiel and so on).

        You need to crave spiritual milk. Sun, Rain, Oil you can see- God is Spirit.

        Do not call to mind the former things<<<<<<<, Or ponder things of the past. 19"Behold, I will do something new<<<<<<, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert. 20"

        Do's and Don't was given around 1240bc.

        For I am going to do something in your days
        that you would not believe,
        even if you were told.

        Christ is the New thing! Its Called Grace. Wink

        • Fred says:

          Ironically, it is Christians who deny eternal salvation by grace. One cannot claim salvation by grace alone and at the same time claim eternal salvation is only by “accepting” the killing of a human being on your behalf.

          “Grace” is just the Christian excuse for the failure of their gospel to deliver on its promises. You only see a “real Christian” as one that speaks in fake gibberish after a pastor told him that he is not “saved” unless he does. This, to you, is evidence of truth of the gospel. I would see a real Christian as a person, who by way of believing in Jesus, becomes the perfect person described in the book of Hebrews who NEVER sins in thought or deed once he becomes a Christian ( Remember, Jesus said even wrong thoughts are as bad as actually doing the action). According to Hebrews, that “one time for all time” sacrifice that makes people stop sinning is what made Judaism obsolete. Guess what? That Christian never existed. If you know a Christian who never sins and never needs forgiveness,for ANYTHING, then point him/her out to me. The message of Hebrews is that Judaism was no good because it did not make people perfect,requiring continuing repentance and offerings, while the gospel accomplished that perfection once the person accepted the gospel.

          • bible819 says:

            Lets Continue,

            We believe that Adam condemn us all. Would you agree? If so, a human being has the power to make the whole world to be cursed.

            With that said, Sacrifices of animals will return, and you better slay animals for your sins. Life is in the blood. That will be a serious blood bath to account for humans nature.

            But I must say, If God says the Law was broken; will he desire your animal sacrifices?

            The Third temple will be rebuilt-

            Now, Jesus the Hebrew, also said if you didn’t believe him you would die in your sins.

            If we received perfection here on earth in this fleshly dying body; why would we unite with our Savior once the soul passes? Hence why it is said, Greater is he that is in me that is in the world.

            Meaning our righteousness is on him whom Israel killed. To remember, this was pattern of past of anyone who came in the name of the Father.

            You on the other hand, didn’t receive the Holy Spirit. Evidence you think its gibberish, which means you had no faith.

            Christ was perfect. Therefore, I’m innocent in whom Gods loves.

            For example, Israel never won without God doing it all. Wink

            Ironically, Christ the Hebrew has been preached all over the world.

            I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

            We the Gentiles Love Isaiah’s Prophecy! Glory to Him!

  12. Concerned Reader says:

    If religions were built on clear proof, we wouldn’t need the institutions of religion to tell us about it, when you really think about it.

    • Fred says:

      If science was built on clear proof, we wouldn’t need scientists to tell us about it. All knowledge, scientific or religious, is gained by education in one form or another, is subject to interpretation and is debated openly. The problem is cognitive dissonance based on self-comfort and the need to balance our emotions, fears and hopes with our minds and perceived reality.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Fred, you don’t need a scientist to tell you that if you cut someone they will bleed and feel pain. Why? Because all peoples (regardless of culture, ideology, or belief,) share the experience and can adequately test it. Water will always be made of hydrogen and oxygen regardless of who you ask. Not all human beings share the religious experience by contrast.

        Religion makes people believe there are eternal consequences for accepting or rejecting certain premises for which there is no unambiguous proof. If I offer the transcendental argument for G-d’s existence for example, every theism from Hinduism to Judaism claims it as a proof of the logic of their belief system.

        No religion claims that if you follow its teachings, they can demonstrate with unbiased data that their faith makes a better person than a non religious system.

        Why should someone accept a religious system for which the margin of error has proved so high? If you examine the history of Jewish messianism for example, you realize that Jesus of Nazareth is a mere replica of messiah claimants that have lead many to do horrible things, and who have encouraged cognitive dissonance.

        Faith itself encourages cognitive dissonance because it says, “even if I can’t know with backed up fact, I believe.” The Exodus is still accepted even though archaeology cannot prove it, and even casts serious doubt on it. Why? Because of faith.

        If a Christian were to examine Judaism for the fruits of its messianism in history thus far, or for verifiable data they could replicate , that person would not say that their Christianity has no basis. Quite the contrary. The lawlessness of Paul of Tarsus, and the semi divine dying Christ all have replicas in Judaism. I can promise you, you are accepting your present religion on just as much faith as you did your previous one.

        • Fred says:

          “I can promise you, you are accepting your present religion on just as much faith as you did your previous one.”

          That’s very arrogant.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            Fred, it isn’t arrogant for you to on the one hand admit that you were once wrong about a previous belief system, namely Christianity, but then to leave your present faith in Judaism unquestioned when the same kinds of issues and problems crop up?

            You are quoted above clearly as saying that only someone who is utterly ignorant of Judaism would ever embrace a Christian like religious movement.

            Historical fact independent of opinion puts the lie on that statement, as the Christians are clearly not the only Jewish derived group to believe in that kind of theology while maintaining observance of Judaism.

            Religious Jews who were very religious all their lives embraced figures like Shabbatai Tzvi, like the Rebbe. Those religious movements were very similar to Christianity in many ways, despite Christians not being involved in their formation. One can say they are incorrect in their assertions, but its wrong to state that these kind of movements are not the fruit of Judaism.

            You can call me arrogant if you would like, it doesn’t bother me. What bothers me very much is how much rhetoric is spun that makes it seem like Christianity is just supremely foolish, (and by extension the implication is that those who follow it are, by being indoctrinated) and that it has nothing about it which is consistent with the Bible or Jewish history.

            The problem with your statement is that We can prove (via these replicant movements and period literature) that this is an assertion which partially goes contrary to the verifiable trends in history.

            Nobody in Judaism for instance disputes the presence of a belief in an eschatalogical warrior messiah who dies in a battle. When this messianic figure dies, collective repentance is the ultimate result, and then the victorious son of David comes and raises this dead figure to life. This tradition is different than the basic Christian messianism I grant, but only by matter of degree not by species or DNA. A dead messiah still rises to life, producing the “fruit of repentance/spirit.”

            We all realize (whether Jewish or Christian) that the Hebrew Bible contains agent figures who speak interchangeably as G-d’s mouthpiece, as though it were G-d who is speaking. Is this a trinity? No. Does it provide the building blocks for it? Yes. How so? If you believe G-d is one and alone and does not share glory, this agent doctrine is a type of contradiction.

            Judaism says “the second coming concept is utterly alien to Judaism.” This should be amended to state “Judaism does not believe the Messiah ben David will come twice.”

            The Hebrew Bible itself says by contrast that “David will be their prince forever,” in Ezekiel 37:25, written long after David’s death.

            If a person reads that passage literally, what does it seem like it could possibly imply? The Resurrection of a dearly loved messianic personage.

            Do you know who does have a “second coming” in Judaism? Elijah the Prophet. Jesus is only a symptom of problems that arise from reading certain things present in the Tanakh.

            I agree with the rabbi fully, (and have it stated on the blog,) that if you are halachically minded, these movements don’t appear to hold water. That said, if you think that the Bible does not encourage the mytho-poetic construct of a Jesus like figure, history is kind of being swept under the rug, as are the sources.

            Jesus was once deemed as only a righteous man with a godly soul who was adopted as “son and messiah” at his Baptism. While he wasn’t seen as a manifestation of the deity yet, the kind of veneration and authority he received in the minds of his students has antecedents in how agent figures are treated, (such as Judges 6.) Jesus (despite not being G-d,) was the agent who they believed could speak with unparalleled authority.

            You can’t imply that people are so utterly ignorant when this kind of movement keeps occurring in history. Disagee with it, stand up against it, but if you say, “these idots just don’t know scripture,” you are guilty of the same simple dismissal and foolishness that you say Christians are guilty of.

  13. Fred says:

    You are wrong on so many levels I don’t even know where to start. Every point you are making has been shown to be completely false. Its like you come here and do not read or listen at all. That is not dialogue, it is preaching. And you only use circular reasoning; e.g., if someone disagrees with you about the holy spirit, it is proof that they do not have the holy spirit. Your narcissistic delusions know no bounds.

    Have a great day.

  14. Fred says:

    Not implying anything. To make the comment you made requires knowledge you don’t have; namely why I do what I do and believe what I believe, what motivates me and how much factual I knowledge I do or do not have. Your comment is based on several assumptions:
    1- That you have a vast amount of knowledge that is unquestionably reliable in every aspect.
    2- That I do not have any knowledge that you don’t also have.
    3- How much of what the spectrum of both Judaism and Christianity teaches falls within both my base of knowledge and my acceptance of each and every point given by a particular source.
    4- That my life experience does not count toward the proper interpretation of facts and events.
    5- That my former religious views were based on faith and faith alone. Were that true, I would be just like Bible819, especially since I was a pastor in that movement. The fact that my religious views have evolved and changed based on YEARS of objective research at the loss of many things dear to my heart should be solid evidence that I do not rely on putting blind faith in anything, or that I suffer from cognitive dissonance.

    I know the point you are making. Why? Because you have been saying the same things over again for months. The point you are trying to make is irrelevant to me, and IMO, to this blog.

    One thing you may wish to consider is this: Faith is bigger than knowledge. Were my Christianity based purely on faith, I would not have left it. Consider that cultural conditioning, being raised in a Christian home, etc., are what led me to Christianity. My path to Judaism is much different, and has no basis in cultural conditioning, upbringing, peer pressure or anything else.

    Do I need to put some faith in the Torah? You bet! I was not there. But then again, you also accept your sources, religious or historical, on faith as well. They all make claims about things you were not there to see. Yet, you believe them, depending on how much you trust their credentials. You say you have “archaeological evidence”. Well, I saw a NG special a few years ago where a Canaanite village was unearthed. Two teams of University anthropologists and archaeologists went through the dig and came to completely opposite conclusions: One said the site “proved” that the Hebrews were never there. Why? Because they found “idols” in the various buildings. In their view, the presence of idols was the antithesis of Hebrew society. The other team concluded that the site DID “prove” the Hebrews were there. Why? Because they found the same idols, and that was the period of time when those specific idols would have been found in a Hebrew village in apostasy.

    • Concerned Reader says:

      Not implying anything. To make the comment you made requires knowledge you don’t have;

      BINGO! That’s exactly what you did also when you said,

      “Only if one has absolutely NO understanding of Torah or the Jewish religion, or even the concept of fulfilling a role as messenger.”

      You are right that neither of us were there, that means we have to have faith. That’s the whole point I was making about equally needing faith.

      A person needs just as much faith to accept the Sinai revelation as they do to accept the resurrection of Jesus due to the paucity of verifiable evidence. That’s why I was calling you out on your rhetoric. That’s what I was upset about, and what my comment was directed at. Your statement ignored a lot of historical complexities that go directly against your claim. I was responding to you in kind by saying something equally asinine.

      With the archaeological program, if they found pig bones, it would be Canaanite, if not, then the site (while still technically Canaanite,) would be possibly Jewish. One thing that makes it even more difficult to separate Canaanite and Israelite is that the writing is very very related.

      One HUGE problem with the Bible and archaeology is that the Bible doesn’t give us any independently attested markers whereby to truly and definitively anchor its narrative in verifiable history.

      For instance, what is Pharoah’s name? When did his kingdom rule Egypt? What was the date on Egypt’s calendar and on the Jewish calendar when the Exodus happened?

      If the people were truly slaves for almost 500 years in this area, this kind of basic information would have been seriously valuable to advancing the legitimacy of the Torah’s claims.

      Even the non testament at least tries to anchor the narrative in some sense of history by telling you who Caesar was in Jesus’ time, and where J lived. We can even use the priestly courses listed in the gospel to figure out when J was likely truly born contra to the later claims of December 25th.

      When people say that Egyptians hid the evidence of the Exodus, you would have to believe that they could cover up an event on the scale of WWII, and that none of Egypt’s neighbors or enemies reported anything like the Nile turning to blood, or the death of the 1st born. What about mention in the literature of other culture’s of hail that was on fire? What about famine that surely wouldn’t just have affected Egypt, but all of its neighbors as well?

      I don’t get upset at that kind of rhetoric for no reason. I have seen more kiruv rabbis than I can count actually say things like, “all the nations believe in the Torah,” as if that proves anything. When I hear a rabbi say that its like, “you mean followers of a bunch of unreliable idolatrous sister religions agree with your claims?” Its not credible supporting witness.

  15. Fred says:

    “For instance, what is Pharoah’s name? When did his kingdom rule Egypt? What was the date on Egypt’s calendar and on the Jewish calendar when the Exodus happened?”

    Okay now. Let’s say you take this question to an Orthodox rabbi and he answers it with names and dates. Would you accept that or would you think his answer was not scientific enough and instead opt for the interpretations of University archaeologists who can’t even agree on whether a Canaanite village was Canaanite or Hebrew?

    Because of unbroken oral tradition, I have more reason to accept the rabbi’s answer than the anthropologists who are starting from scratch.

    • bible819 says:

      Fred eludes to name calling due to the fact he is bitter. He does not have the love of The Father in him.

      If these blogs mentios the hope we have in the- Hebrew Yeshua- its inconceivable for you to ever think you could disarm a 2000 year old movement.

      The power of healings, evil spirits revealed, and no found body- is called Today.

      How could you convince someone otherwise- even the muslims understand Jesus had power to do these things.

      The only difference between you and I is this-

      We believe the messiah came and you are still waiting-

      We see the entire picture.

      You see the glass half empty

      We apply the 1st provision and apply the 2nd until the coming of the 3rd.

      You apply the 1st provision and are waiting on the 2nd.

    • Concerned Reader says:

      Fred, if the rabbis could answer with the date on the Jewish calendar, and with the date according to the Egyptian chronology, I wouldn’t be asking the question in the first place. Conservative religious scholars can’t verify where exactly Sinai was, they don’t know when the Exodus happened, and they don’t know (for sure) which Pharaoh was ruling at the time. Not even in Philo of Alexandria’s time did they know these things for certain.

      Do you know why archaeologists generally can’t agree about the state of a Canaanite VS Israelite village? Its because, between the two types of sites, between the two cultures so far, the only thing that really sets them apart is the presence or absence of pig bones. The pottery, writing found, idols, etc. are all the same between sites. That, and any names we may find at these sites are inconclusive of the culture because both cultures interacted so extensively as both the Bible and Archaeology both illustrate. The reference to the treasure cities of Pithom and Rameses hint that Rameses was possibly the Pharoah, but its far from conclusive, as is the exact location of those cities. Different religious writers offer different locations. Saadia Gaon thought that Pithom was located 60 km from Cairo at El Faiyum. That city was called Sedet in ancient Egyptian sources, so its unlikely that is where the city is.

      I don’t write what I write to be disrespectful, but because these are real questions that exist about these things.

  16. Fred says:

    “Fred eludes to name calling due to the fact he is bitter. ”

    Please show me where I have called anybody a name. I will apologize. Otherwise, repent for your false witness. I guess your one time for all time sacrifice was made in vain ( Hebrews 10). As it says, there is no more sacrifice for you.

    “He does not have the love of The Father in him.”

    Quite an accusation. I thought Christians believed that only God knows the heart. My friends, family and rabbi think otherwise. I’ll take their opinion over yours.

    ” its inconceivable for you to ever think you could disarm a 2000 year old movement.”

    -You use that word a lot. I don’t think it means what you think it means.- Inigo Montoya
    And your “arms” exist only in your securely locked imagination.

    “We believe the messiah came and you are still waiting”

    The Tanakh describes the Messiah and the New Covenant in very clear terms in Ezekiel and Jeremiah. Nothing about your religion matches up. In fact, almost all of Christianity’s doctrines are polar opposites to Judaism, Torah and Tanakh.

    “We see the entire picture.”

    I was part of your movement and have seen the hole cards, friend. You hold a busted 4 card flush.There is no “there” there.

    “You see the glass half empty”

    Quite to the contrary. Your glass is completely full… of poison, if you think that if a person commits a single offense at any point in his life he is deserving of eternal torture in a blazing furnace, save for a human sacrifice made on his behalf.

    “How could you convince someone otherwise- even the muslims understand Jesus had power to do these things.”

    The founder of the hybrid, made-up religion of Islam was a false prophet even according to Christians, yet you use him as a source of confirmation for your views? Interesting. So you believe everything Muhammad said was false, except for the parts about Jesus you happen to agree with. “The enemy of my enemy is friend.”

    Have a great evening.

    • bible819 says:

      We are going to continue to preach the Good news. We bring salvation to the ends of the earth. We started in Israel and 2000 years later… We have multiple 100 fold. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” I’m going to everyone in every place.

      As Jesus said, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

      2016

      • Dinah Bucholz says:

        “We are going to continue to preach the Good news.” Exactly. All you’re doing is preaching. You aren’t listening. Honest and fair debate is therefore impossible. That’s why I stopped talking to you.

        On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 10:28 PM, 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote:

        > bible819 commented: “We are going to continue to preach the Good news. We > bring salvation to the ends of the earth. We started in Israel and 2000 > years later… We have multiple 100 fold. This is the one who produces a > crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was ” >

      • Dina says:

        “We are going to continue to preach the Good news.” Exactly. All you’re doing is preaching. You aren’t listening. Honest and fair debate is therefore impossible. That’s why I stopped talking to you.

        • Dina says:

          Sorry for the double comment.

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            Lets talk about the New Testament. You and I.

            You doubt my Savior and that’s okay. You point to a word here there and I point to a word there and we have a line we will never cross such as ‘ The Son of Man coming in the clouds.”

            What else in Yeshua the Hebrew’s teaching (principles) do you disagree?

            Besides the stuff about His Resurrection, the Prophecy about 1 or 3 or 4 rocks being left on the Temple after it was destroyed by the Romans, or him being 1 with the Father.

            No Body is found, Stone count is irrelevant to the fact the temple was destroyed, and you have no idea how the Word of Lord comes to a human body as neither did the ancestors because if they had known; common sense would suggest they not have been in trouble with God.

          • Dina says:

            Bibbles, when you are ready to stop preaching and start engaging in fair and honest debate, let me know and I’ll be happy to talk to you. Otherwise, please don’t waste my time.

      • Southern Noahide says:

        819 wrote: “This is the one who produces a crop………”

        That “crop” was cultivated with the sword and watered with the blood of those who stood faithful to the G-d of Israel and refused to accept your pagan man-god. Without the sword, both xianity and islam would have faded away like so many other cults that came before and after them.

        • bible819 says:

          3.3 Billion Christ followers and growing.
          Glory to the First and the Last, 18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

          If Israel was right with God the temple wouldn’t have been destroyed by the romans- 1948 is a long time.

          Yes a crop… You keep talking to me and the Father might open your eyes to the dehumanization that Christ experienced for ignorant people like you and I.

          Animals sacrifices the Father doesn’t desire. But a body prepared for him. it was written about Yeshua in the scroll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          Psalm 40:6
          Isaiah 53
          Hosea 6:2
          and so on.

          now we are Waiting on Israel

          “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of (grace and of supplication)<<<<<<<<<<<, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an (only son,) and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a (firstborn).

          Then we will see- Daniel 7:13

          with the clouds of heaven (One like a Son of Man) was coming, And He came up to the (Ancient of Days) And was presented before Him

          Amen! I love The MAN GOD " The Son of the Most HIgh"

          The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek<<<<< The Lamb!

          • Eleazar says:

            Wait, so you’re saying that all 3.3 billion are REAL Christians? Even the vast majority who you believe are not real Christians because they do not “speak in tongues”?

          • Eleazar Congratulations on your conversion – may Hashem fill your life with blessing and light

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Southern Noahide says:

            bible819 wrote: “Animals sacrifices the Father doesn’t desire. But a body prepared for him. it was written about Yeshua in the scroll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

            How interesting that you would choose one of the many verses of the NT that gives an excellent example of the lies and deception used by the authors of the NT. Let’s see what the verses in Psalm 40 really say……

            Psalm 40:7 “You desired neither sacrifice nor meal offering; You dug ears for me; a burnt offering or a sin offering You did not request.”

            Another translation of the same verse:
            “Sacrifice and offering you do not desire, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required.”

            How about the KJV:
            “Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.”

            But the deceptive author of the book of Hebrews wrote:
            “Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me”

            Did the author of Hebrews make a boo boo? Hardly. Scripture tampering with the intent to deceive is more likely.

            Let’s continue on……..

            The NT authors had to do a little tweaking in order to come up with yet another false “proof text”. Let’s see how they twisted the words of the Psalm:

            KJV: “Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.”
            NIV: “Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.'”

            A much better translation:

            Psalm 40:8 “Then I said, “Behold I have come,” with a scroll of a book written for me.” Source: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16261

            There is a huge difference between a book written ABOUT a person and a book written FOR a person.

            Is there any wonder as to why, for 100’s of years, the church went to such lengths to keep the scriptures out of the hands of the people? How dare the writers of the NT tamper with the Holy Scriptures???

        • bible819 says:

          You are correct Eleazar. I have no dispute in what you are saying. The Holy Spirit separates the Goats from the Sheep. The number was just to suggest on how big the influence of Christ, to the world of paganism.

          • Eleazar says:

            Except that the worship of a man as God IS paganism by definition.

          • bible819 says:

            Except that your messiah that comes will be a man. Your Messianic Age

            Mine on the other hand, was 1 with the Father. God is spirit.

            As it is written,

            1″I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

            The messiah must be God if God is the only Savior.

            Praise Yahshua!

          • Bible 819 So when Obadiah 1:21 speaks of multiple saviors does that mean there are multiple gods?

            I have a question for you – what would it take to convince you that there is a fourth person in the godhead and that the Messiah is to come three times instead of twice? Are these possibilities that you are open to considering?

            And another question – what tells you that you have the holy spirit – perhaps you have the spirit that misled the prophets of Ahab (1Kings 22:22)?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  17. Sharbano says:

    Do you believe in the same Spirit that guided Stephen.

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