V. 62. Objection 6.12
Brown presents one of the fundamental Jewish Objections to Christianity: “Judaism is a unique religion. Of all the religions of the world, only Judaism began with a public revelation witnesses by the entire nation. No one and nothing can alter that fact or change the substance of that revelation.”
Brown responds on behalf of Christianity with three arguments: “1) Followers of Jesus also accept the revelation of God at Sinai, recognizing it as the foundation of everything else that follows…” Further on (Page 236) Brown elaborates: “…the revelation at Sinai is NOT the exclusive property of traditional Judaism. Rather, it is the heritage of all who embrace the Tanakh, and that includes hundreds of millions of Christians as well.”
Brown’s second argument: “2) In and of itself, the revelation of Sinai argues against a binding oral tradition – which is the foundation of traditional Judaism – rather than for it.”
Brown presents his third argument: “3) God did not stop speaking at Sinai, and therefore I embrace the words of the prophets and the words of the Messiah, which build on the foundation of Sinai. I should also point out that many liberal Jewish scholars do not even believe that this revelation at Sinai ever occurred…”
Before refuting Brown’s arguments, a question is begging to be asked. Why bring up the liberal scholars? What is the point of reminding his audience that there are people who do not believe in the Sinai revelation? Could there be any other motivation other than to minimize the power of Sinai in the eyes of his audience? If this conclusion is correct (and I do not insist that it is, it simply the only logical answer I can see for my question) than another question presents itself. Why? Why is it important for someone – who claims to believe in Sinai, and who claims a share in the heritage of Sinai – to attempt to minimize the impact of Sinai? The fact that Brown found the need to include the opinion of these liberal scholars in his response to the Jewish argument based on Sinai, leaves me with a strong impression, that Sinai does not sit all that well with Brown. For all of his declarations to the effect that he affirms the revelation of Sinai, something is seriously wrong.
Since Sinai is so foundational to Judaism, and since the Scriptures put Sinai and the exodus at the very center of the faith-structure of Scripture, I will beg the reader’s indulgence, and I will take the time to elaborate.
Before I begin, I will quote some Scripture.
“When you are in distress and all these things have befallen you, at the end of days, you will return to the Lord your God, and hearken to His voice. For the Lord your God is a merciful God, He will not abandon you nor destroy you, and He will not forget the covenant of your forefathers that He swore to them. For inquire now regarding the early days that preceded you, from the day that God created man on the earth, and from on end of the heaven to the other end of the heaven: Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people heard the voice of God speaking to them from the midst of the fire as you have, and survived? Or has any god ever miraculously come to take for himself a nation from the midst of a nation, with challenges, with signs, and with wonders, and with war, and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with greatly awesome deeds, such as everything that the Lord your God, did for you in Egypt before your eyes? You have been shown in order to know that the Lord, He is the God, there is none beside Him. From heaven He caused you to hear His voice in order to teach you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.” (Deuteronomy 4:30-36).
The point of this passage is: That the fact that Israel is the only nation that claims to have heard God’s voice from the midst of the fire, and the fact that Israel is the only nation that claims to have experienced anything like the exodus from Egypt, is supposed to encourage the Jew at the end of time that God will not forget the covenant that He made with our forefathers.
Why? How do the unique claims of Judaism reassure us that God’s covenant with us still stands? What is the covenant that we share with God?
The thrust of the covenant that Israel shares with God is that we are called to be His nation and He declares Himself to be our God (Exodus 6:7, Deuteronomy 29:12, 1Chronicles 17:22). This means that God tied up His own identity with that of Israel. The covenant that Israel shares with God denotes that God will be called: “The God of Israel”, and that Israel will be called: “The people of God”. In other words; a covenant is like a marriage. No longer can we look at the two parties of the covenant as separate entities; the destiny of these two parties is bound up with one another and the very identity of these two parties is bound up with one another. The exodus and Sinai sealed the connection between God and Israel. From that point onward, Israel is God’s bride, and God is Israel’s husband and lover.
Israel’s intimacy with God that was displayed by the exodus and the familiarity with God that Israel gained through the Sinai revelation remains unmatched by any other national entity.
In these verses in Deuteronomy, God is reassuring Israel that no nation will ever match Israel’s claim of being married to God.
The perception of God that Israel acquired at the Sinai revelation is not a peripheral aspect of our covenant with God. Neither is this perception something that fades away with the passage of time. God points to this knowledge of God that we acquired at Sinai as the very heart of our relationship with Him, and God speaks to the last generation and points to this knowledge as a unique possession that sets us apart from every other national entity. This knowledge was not acquired through the handing over of a book, nor was it accomplished through the recital of words. God points to a fiery encounter, collectively experienced as the means through which He imparted this knowledge to us (Deuteronomy 4:35). God also tells us how it is that this knowledge will be preserved throughout the generations. Again, it is not through the recital of words or through the reading of a book; but through the channel of love and trust that exists between children and their parents (Deuteronomy 4:9, Psalm 78:5).
Sinai and exodus were fiery experiences that seared the perception of God into the minds and the hearts of the people who experienced it. They were commanded by God to keep this awareness and intimacy with God alive and to pass it on to their children. Each generation of Jews is enjoined by God to absorb the testimony of exodus and Sinai from their parents, to come to know and love the God of their ancestors and to stand together with their parents in a covenantal relationship with God (Deuteronomy 29:13). The power, the reality and the truth of God embodied in the testimony of exodus and Sinai is so weighty that the last generation of Jews can put their full trust in the God of Sinai on the basis of this testimony (Psalm 78:7). A trust in God that will encourage them to give their lives for Him (Psalm 44:17-23). A trust in God and a love for Him that will carry them through the darkest times (Isaiah 26:13, Micha 7:7,8). A trust and a yearning for God so that when God arises to judge the earth, the children of the exodus and Sinai will cry out with joy: “Behold! This is our God! The God that we hoped for! (Isaiah 25:9). And the connection between God and Israel that was forged at exodus and Sinai runs so deep and is so steadfast, that when God alone is exalted on that day (Isaiah 2:17), His bride, Israel, will be vindicated to the eyes of all the nations (Isaiah 49:23, 62:2. Micha 7:10, Psalm 98:2,3).
Now here we have Brown, declaring that hundreds of millions of Christians share in the heritage of Sinai! Brown seems to be under the impression that Sinai is completely restricted to a book, it has nothing to do with living people, so that according to Brown, anyone who grabs hold of the book can claim a share in the inheritance of Sinai.
Brown has missed the point of Sinai, which is actually the central point of the entire Scripture. Its not about a book, it is about a covenant between two living parties; between the living God, and between His bride, Israel. Just because you are holding a copy of a description of the wedding ceremony doesn’t make you the bride. And if you make it your life’s mission to declare to one and all that the witnesses that God commissioned at Sinai are liars, then how can you turn around and claim the heritage of Sinai for yourself? (Just to remind the readers; in Volume 2, Brown contended that Israel’s rejection of the trinity is not based on what they learned at Sinai, as Israel claims, but is rather: “a gut-level negative reaction to anything Christian” (Page 7).)
Brown’s argument that: “the Sinai revelation does not give a hint of the Oral law. Not a hint!” – is equally fallacious. The whole point of the exodus and Sinai is that words alone, neither written or spoken can effectively communicate a perception of God; it can only be done through a living experience. The whole point of exodus and Sinai is that through a series of living experiences, God forged a nation for Himself that will walk through the corridors of history with His truth in their hearts (Isaiah 51:7) – a living nation, not a series of books.
V. 63. Page 235
“3) God did not stop speaking at Sinai, and therefore I embrace the words of the prophets and the words of the Messiah, which build on the foundation of Sinai.”
There is another foundational aspect of Sinai that Brown has missed and together with Sinai he has missed the mainstay of the faith structure of the Jewish Scriptures.
Through the exodus and Sinai, God established a perception of Himself in the minds and in the hearts of Israel (Deuteronomy 4:35, 39). At Sinai God also established the authenticity of Moses’ claim to prophecy (Exodus 19:9). The truth of these two concepts (Israel’s perception of God, and the validity of Moses’ prophecy) were so firmly established, that every subsequent generation of Jews is enjoined to evaluate prophetic claims in light of these two perceptions. No matter how many miracles and no matter how spectacular those miracles are; if the claimant to prophecy contradicts Israel’s perception of God or if he contradicts Moses; he should be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:6).
Brown’s acceptance of Jesus’ claims for deity, is a direct contradiction to Sinai. Brown’s acceptance of the claim that Jesus is somehow greater than Moses is likewise contradicted by Sinai. It is only because Brown rejects Sinai, that he is able to accept the claims of Christianity.
V. 64. Pages 237-238
Brown goes back to the Jewish objection (6.12) and reiterates it in different words: “You might say, “but God DID give the Ten Commandments and much of the Written Torah to Israel, in a public, definite way, before the whole nation, whereas you claim that Jesus just showed up on the scene and drew a few disciples about him and then changed everything. Why should we believe this?’”
Before we approach Brown’s response to the Jewish objection, it is important to point out that his presentation of the objection is misleading. First and foremost, a key concept that is missing, is the concept of credibility. The claims of Judaism are more credible then are the claims of Christianity. And second, it was not “much of the Written Torah” that we received in a public definite way, but rather it was a perception of God (Deuteronomy 4:35), and the knowledge that Moses is His prophet (Exodus 19:9) that we received at Sinai. To approach these concepts from a different angle; if I were to ask a Christian: How do you know your god? On what basis do accept the claim that Jesus was god incarnate? Did anyone SEE that he is god incarnate? – If we turn to volume 2, we find a series of arguments (incidentally; no mention of Sinai) arguing for the alleged divinity of Jesus. That is still not seeing. The Jew on the other hand can say: “We encountered God face to face” (Deuteronomy 5:4). If you ask the Christian: How do you know that Jesus was a prophet? – Brown will point to signs and wonders that Jesus performed before those who already believed in him – but that is still not KNOWING that God spoke to him. If we ask a Jew, how it is that he knows that Moses is a prophet – he could respond – “we heard God talking to him” (Exodus 19:9).
Now for Brown’s response to the Jewish objection. Brown points to various phenomena that accompanied the career of Jesus. He points to the prophetic prediction which, according to Brown, predict that the Messiah must come before the destruction of the Second Temple (- we addressed these in Contra Brown), he points to signs in the heaven and an angelic announcement that preceded the birth of Jesus (Matthew 2 and Luke 2), the preaching of John the Baptist that preceded Jesus’ ministry, the faith healings of Jesus that Brown refers to as “unprecedented signs, wonders and miracles”, the triumphant entry of Jesus into Jerusalem on donkey-back, the supernatural events that coincided with Jesus’ death; namely an eclipse, and earthquake and the rending of the Temple veil, Jesus’ resurrection, the “outpouring of the spirit” that took place on the Pentecost, the miracles the Peter performed, and Jesus’ prediction of the destruction.
Brown appeals to his readers: “When you think of it, with Israel scattered throughout the world, what could have been more public than the Messiah’s triumphal entry and death at the time of the Passover – with Jerusalem thronged with Jews from around the world – and then Jews from every nation hearing and seeing the events at Shavuot?”
(As an aside, before we respond to Brown’s argument – I find it noteworthy that Brown did not mention the many dead saints that Matthew claims were resurrected at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. I would have thought that this most incredible miracle should be at the forefront of the list of miracles that are supposed to confirm Jesus’ claims.)
To respond to Brown’s question: “what could have been more public?” – I say; God could have spoken to Jesus from the thick of the cloud like He spoke to Moses, that would at least place him on an equal footing with Moses. God could have turned the Jordan river into blood for seven days, He could have stopped the sun in the sky as He did for Joshua, He could have done any number of miracles that would impact the nation on a practical level – but He didn’t. Brown has failed to understand the unique nature of the exodus miracles. The exodus impacted Israel and Egypt on a practical level. To put things in a modern American perspective; could you compare the Mississippi turning to blood for a full week, to a faith healing that may take place in front of those who already have faith in the healer? (Note: Matthew and Mark inform us that Jesus could not perform mighty miracles in places where people did not have faith in him – Mark 6:5, Matthew 13:58). Would you compare the impact of the bulk of America’s military forces drowning in the sea to a dead person reappearing to a select few devotees, who had already committed themselves in devotion to this person?
Furthermore, the alleged miracles of Jesus can only be found in the pages of a book written and edited by a limited group of individuals that have dedicated themselves to promulgate the glory of Jesus. There is no one on earth today who claims that he or she is a direct descendant of one who experienced one of Jesus’ miracles. Contrast this with the exodus, where you have an entire nation of living people testifying to the truth of the exodus – telling their children that they heard from their parents that they were personally impacted by the miracles of the exodus. In fact, the descendants of the people amongst whom Jesus lived namely the Jewish people, remember Jesus and his followers in a negative way.
The bottom line is and remains; Both Judaism and Christianity make claims about the realm of the unseen and unknown: Judaism claims that all of our devotion belongs to our Creator and to no one else, while Christianity claims that our devotion ought to be directed towards a man who lived and walked this earth. The assertions of these two belief systems cannot be verified through the five senses; each of these belief systems claims to have received their respective beliefs through a revelation from that realm of the unknown. In the case of Judaism, that revelation came to the entirety of the nation – all of them encountered the living God at Sinai; in the case of Christianity, the Christian points to Jesus as the channel through whom this information came from the realm of the unknown to this world. In the case of Judaism, we believe the testimony of a nation, in the case of Christianity, it all stands on the words of an individual.
V. 65. Page 238
Here Brown devotes one paragraph to one of the major Jewish objections against Christianity (- note: one paragraph out of a five volume series that spans almost 1500 pages! And this paragraph is not even placed in the section that purportedly deals with the Jewish objections of this category (- theological objections; idolatry)).
“I am aware, of-course, that traditional Jews point to God’s revelation at Sinai, as recounted by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:14-34, emphasizing that the people of Israel saw no form on Sinai – including that of a man or woman – and that they should not make an idol in any shape or form. Therefore, it is argued, we are violating the Sinai covenant by worshiping Yeshua as god, as if we were making a man into a god (or vice versa).”
Again, before getting to Brown’s response; a question is in order: Why when quoting Deuteronomy 4 does Brown stop at verse 34? Does he not realize the critical nature of verse 35 and its central place in this discussion? Verse 35 reads: “Unto you it was SHOWN in order that you know, that the Lord is God, THERE IS NONE ELSE BESIDE HIM.” In other words: whatever it si that we are to worship was shown to us at Sinai, and we are to worship NOTHING ELSE.
Now to Brown’s response. “But that is a crass misunderstanding of our faith. We do not worship a human form. The New Testament plainly states that “no one has ever seen God” (John 1:18a) describing Him as the One “who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see” (I Tim. 6:16). In Yeshua, however, we recognize the fullness of God revealed, not in physical form or shape – how absurd! – but in spiritual reality, clothed in human flesh.”
A crass misunderstanding of Sinai and a mockery too. As if a nifty word-game can get around the prohibition against idolatry. This is actually the third lesson of Sinai that seems to have completely escaped Brown. Brown missed the idea that Sinai sealed a covenant between two living parties, Brown missed the idea theme that Sinai is the yardstick against which subsequent claims for prophecy are judged, and here Brown misses the idea that Sinai serves as the definitive teaching on the subject of idolatry (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 4:15). Brown also has completely missed the concept of the Oral Law because it is here that the Scripture most explicitly testifies to the concept of the Oral Law.
Allow me to reiterate what we mean when we say Oral Law. When we say that we believe in the Oral Law we are saying that there is more to the commandments than what is written in the Five Books of Moses. The concept of the Oral Law maintains that the full scope of the commandment can only be grasped through the living testimony of Israel. Those, such as Brown, who dispute the authenticity of the Oral Law contend that everything that Israel needs to know about the Law is completely contained in the Five books of Moses.
When it comes to the Law that prohibits idolatry, the Torah clearly and unequivocally authenticates the position of the believers in the Oral Law. God chose to teach the prohibition against idolatry to the nation of Israel in a direct fashion. As opposed to the other commandments, where God taught them to Moses who then went and taught them to Israel, God Himself taught the nation of Israel the injunction against worshiping idols.
Now, according to Brown and his fellow deniers of the validity of the Oral Law, God should have recited some words or handed Israel a book – and nothing more. After all, if there is no Oral Law then everything must be contained in written words. But that is not what God did. He certainly did recite words and He also gave Israel a written record of those words in the form of the two tablets, but He did not stop there. In order to teach Israel who it is that they are to worship and who it is that they are not to worship God put Israel through a fiery experience which goes far beyond words. And the written words itself point to this fiery experience as the touchstone for the prohibition against idolatry (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 4:15). Subsequent passages identify idols with the simple term: “that which I have not commanded” (Deuteronomy 17:3), or: “that which your fathers did not know” (Deuteronomy 13:7); implying that if we did not hear about it from our ancestors from Sinai, then it is an idol that is not deserving of our worship. If there is anywhere in scripture that we are taught that words alone do not adequately convey the underlying message of a commandment; it is here. And it is precisely here, in the realm of idolatry, that Christianity most emphatically rejects the living testimony of Israel.
How does the living testimony of Israel negate the claims of Christianity concerning the alleged divinity of Jesus? Simple! At Sinai we were shown towards whom it is that we are to direct our devotion. Anyone or anything that was not revealed to our ancestors at Sinai, is not deserving of our worship. No one ever claimed that our ancestors saw Jesus at Sinai. If God wanted us to direct our devotion to Jesus, He would have shown Jesus to us at Sinai. Since Jesus was not there at Sinai, worship of him is idolatry.
But what about those nifty word-games? What about the claim that Jesus is somehow one and the same as the God we encountered at Sinai?
The basic response is that if “a” is not equal to “b” then “b” cannot be equal to “a”. In other words, if worship of the God who revealed Himself to our ancestors at Sinai is not worship of Jesus, then worship of Jesus is not worship of the God who revealed Himself at Sinai. Its as simple as that.
To illuminate the matter from a different angle let us focus on the sin of idolatry. The sin of idolatry is not a philosophical abstract, it is a sin of the heart. The sin of idolatry is not committed when you use the wrong phrase – for example, according to Brown; the phrase: “the fullness of God revealed in physical form” would be “absurd” and presumably idolatrous, while the phrase: “the fullness of God revealed in spiritual reality clothed in human flesh” is perfectly fine. These word games have nothing to do with the sin of idolatry.
The sin of idolatry is perpetrated when one’s heart is committed in devotion to an entity other than the God of Israel. In order for one to commit their heart in devotion to someone or to something, there has to be a basis for that devotion, a motivation and a stimulus for that devotion. In the case of the God of Israel, the stimulus for the devotion is the awe one feels in the presence of the Master of all creation, who holds the existence of every being in His hand. Devotion to God is rooted in the understanding that every fiber of our existence belongs to Him because it was He who brought us into existence to begin with. Worship of God is inspired by the sense of gratitude that we feel for all of the kindness that He is constantly pouring upon us with love and mercy. Israel’s devotion to her God is rooted in the very fact that God is God. It is impossible to separate between Israel’s devotion and the concept of Creator, Master, and Sustainer of all existence – because Israel’s devotion is rooted in those very truths.
The Christian’s devotion to Jesus on the other hand is rooted in the admiration of a human character portrayed in the pages of the Gospels. It is rooted in an awe for his alleged righteousness, in a reverence towards his teachings, and in an appreciation for his sacrifice and suffering – all of which took place in a human body. All of this devotion has nothing to do with the claim that he is somehow divine. All of the feelings that a Christian bears in his or her heart towards Jesus are entirely possible without believing that Jesus is divine. The argument that Jesus is somehow one and the same as the God of Israel is not the root or the stimulus for the Christian’s devotion – rather it is the result of the Christian’s devotion. The words: “Jesus is the same as the God of Israel”, are simply a set of words that is appended to the Christian’s devotion to Jesus as a justification for the devotion, but in no way is this set of words an intrinsic and inseparable part of the devotion itself.
The awe that one experiences when contemplating the reality of the Master of all existence, the gratitude that one feels for the kindness of existence, and the submission that we feel towards the One who created us out of nothing – has nothing to do with the admiration that Christians feel towards the human character portrayed in the four Gospels. These are two different devotions rooted in two different sets of human emotions. One is the service of God and the other is idolatry.
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
Pingback: Responding to Dr. Michael Brown’s Distractions | 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources
Dear R’B,
It is with the utmost respect and love that I write the following:
Why are you doing all this? Don’t you see you are not with the times? You are engaged in a struggle while a great move of G-d is happening in your life time. G-d is doing a new thing, it springs up before you, do you not perceive it? There are thousands upon thousands returning to Torah because Yeshua told them to. These are Christians and former Christians who have left their Churches, they have no homes. Proselytizing Jews is the furthest thing from their mind. They fully realize the paganism in Christianity and are searching out the ancient path. They keep Torah, Shabbat, they eat kosher, keep the Feasts the best they know how and some even wear titzits.
Who are these people and where are they all coming from? Ask any Rabbi or Synagogue president, has this ever happened before? You’re a Rabbi, surely you see it. Abraham IS the father of many nations! How did G-d fulfill that promise? Through the diaspora! The message of Yeshua has reached the lost tribes telling them to come home. They come running only to find their big brother blocking the doorway with his arms crossed saying; “You can come in but Yeshua is NOT welcome”
Yeshua foretold this very thing:
“11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.
13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’
31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”
R’B,
Big brother, help us come home. Our allegiance is to Hashem and to Torah. But how can you expect us to deny the one Hashem sent searching to the ends of the earth to show us the way the way home?
It would be like saying to you; “You love Hashem, good! Come on in! But that Moses fellow needs to stay outside”. You wouldn’t come in and neither would I!
Yes, the majority of Christians are idol worshipers under the guise of trinitarian monotheism. These are NOT the ones I’m talking about!!!
I challenge you Big Brother; if Yeshua is a type of Messiah, prefiguring in his own body what Israel, God’s son was about to go through, but yet still rise from the dead, calling the exiles home and reading the stage for Messiah son of David. Then it would be pleasing our Father to help your little brother out.
We want to come home.
CP There is no greater help I can do for my brother (big or small) other than sharing the light that God granted His firstborn s
CP Many of those Christians are finding the true God and being weaned of Jesus and they thank me for what I am doing
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
CP here is an example of a note I received from a former Christian
Thank you once again for sharing truth that leads to righteousness and inner peace.
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
CP,
I’m truly baffled by something you wrote. First, you wrote, “Why are you doing all this?” Then you wrote, “Yes, the majority of Christians are idol worshipers under the guise of trinitarian monotheism. These are NOT the ones I’m talking about!!!”
If you read the exchanges between Rabbi B. and Dr. Brown, you would surely know that Dr. Brown to whom this response is directed falls squarely into the camp of “idol worshipers under the guise of trinitarian monotheism.”
If you recoil from the horror committing idolatry, why would you not join Rabbi B. in his effort to prevent his brethren from falling into the snare that Dr. Brown has set up?
Because y’all throw Yeshua out with the bath water! Otherwise I would join you all.
CP, is it then a greater sin in your mind to reject Jesus than to worship him as a god?
CP, this is such an important question. Please, I ask you to consider it well:
Is it then a greater sin in your mind to reject Jesus than to worship him as a god?
And I’d like to add: what does it even mean to ‘accept’ or ‘reject’ Jesus (i.e. in the context of CP’s view of J not being part of the Christian concept of the trinity).
Dina,
I know you think you’ve asked the simplest of questions, however it can’t be answered as written.
Please allow me to explain;
1) using just the word “worship” with no qualifiers is to broad a term when the context in question IS the question.
2) turning your back on G-d’s instructions is sin no matter which instruction you choose to ignore, therefore “a greater sin” I assume you to mean which carries the severest consequences.
3) you used a small “g” for god, therefore I am assuming you to mean a elohim rather than Hashem the One True Most High G-d.
Now to answer;
In my mind the consequences are more dire to reject the one Hashem sent than to pay homage due a most high ben elohim acting as a representative of Hashem.
CP, I may be duplicating a comment because I’m not sure it posted; forgive me in that case.
Since the small “g” threw you off, allow me to rewrite as follows:
Is it then a greater sin in your mind to reject Jesus than to worship him as God?
I asked the question because that is how Dr. Brown worships Jesus and you were defending him against Rabbi B. while at the same time proclaiming that Christians who do so are idolaters. I was wondering if you would clarify this for me.
CP, you wrote something else that my personal experience testifies is not true: “Proselytizing Jews is the furthest thing from their mind.”
Every single Jew I know, including me, has been subject to proselytization attempts. Several times a year through a knock on the door, often in public places like train stations, etc.
The reason this website exists is only because the Christian came knocking first. We would be satisfied to leave Christians alone to worship according to their conscience if only they would leave us alone to worship according to ours.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Christians have been trying to convert Jews since the beginning, and although they have made remarkably little headway, they continue to try.
You judge those you do not know by those you do?
CP, the point was not to judge all Christians, God forbid. The point was that the reason this website exists is to defend against them since there are so many. And indeed there are. Organizations that run on millions of dollars expressly target Jews for conversion.
If there are 2 billion Christians in the world and only 10% of them target Jews for conversion, that’s still 200 million Christians to what? Sixteen million Jews?
It’s entirely fair for us to defend ourselves against the onslaught.
Following.
“Don’t you see you are not with the times?”
Funny, the Greeks said the same thing. We’re still here, they’re not…
R’B,
I’ve read and watched the blogs and videos of former Christians denying Yeshua, I have yet to see even one, even one who knows the Scriptures well nor do they know the history of the second Temple period. From what I’ve seen they are emotionally based decisions.
However if you know of someone who has made an “informed” decision to deny Yeshua as a Messiah, join Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism and can articulate exactly why according to Scripture…… I would listen very attentively.
I’ve seen, heard and experienced to much to deny Yeshua unless it can be proved Hashem was being merciful winking at my ignorance knowing where my path lay up ahead.
CP How about Jim?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
CP,
And you still have not answered my last question about why you so strongly think you owe Jesus anything. Why do you hold Jesus in higher regard than other angels?
Its this simple, CP. The New Testament lays out the case for Christianity. It promises that the law is written on the hearts of believers and that they will no longer sin once they know and “receive Jesus’ sacrifice”. That the superiority of Jesus’ death over the sacrificial system was that the sacrificial system did not make its adherents “perfect”, whereas the one-time sacrifice of Jesus did make believers perfect, no longer needing a yearly sacrifice. Read Hebrews 8-10.
Reality itself tells us that is not true.
CP, you already view mainstream Christianity as a corrupted system, and surely you realize that this corrupt planting is the only source of knowledge we have for Yeshua’s life and teaching. If you believe all he did was to teach Jews the Torah, then he as a person becomes an irrelevant factor in the walk with G-d. When respect for Jesus transforms into a matter of seeing him as essential to one’s walk with G-d, he ceases to do the Job you claim he sought to fulfill. If Jesus was an angel, the Torah says to Israel do not worship “the whole host” (the word there is Tzeva,) IE do not worship the entourage of G-d.
Okay, CP, here is a challenge.
You have stated that Jesus is Mashiach ben Yosef.
Please list the criteria in the Hebrew Bible for Mashiach ben Yosef and show how Jesus fulfilled them. I presented you with this challenge some time ago but suppose you hadn’t seen it.
Please also explain how he will turn into Mashiach ben David at his second coming.
CP,
In one sense, you have the question all backward. You are looking for a knowledgeable non-Jew who ‘denied’ Jesus and wishes to attach himself to the Jewish people. This makes sense, especially from your perspective. But there are two questions that I believe are more helpful: 1. Where are the knowledgeable Jews that accepted one must come to God through Jesus? 2. Where are the knowledgeable non-Jews that accepted that one must come to God through Jesus?
It may be that some former Christians who now wish to be Jewish or faithfully observe the Seven Laws made an emotional decision to leave Jesus. It certainly does not seem that most people who leave Jesus do it on a whim, especially those that wish to become Jewish. The emotional piece for most people seems to be that they wish to hold on to Jesus in some way or another. For many people, this seems to take years. It is usually a decision made after much study. My own case took less time once I decided to fairly evaluate the Christian claims, but it was not made in a rush.
Of course, you know that the Christian conversion experience is much different. It is quite usual for it to be based on emotions. And it is not usually based in knowledge. On the contrary, the story of the gospels is highly emotionally charged. You have a ‘good’ man walking around forgiving people, healing them, even feeding them. Even though he is ‘good,’ the leaders reject him. They kill the innocent man. At the same time, he goes willingly. It is a story with much emotional power behind it. Those that come to Jesus feel like a weight has been taken from them. They feel forgiven. They feel indebted.
But, if they knew Torah, they would know that such a death is unnecessary.
One might consider Augustine a classic case. As a young man, he disrepects Torah. He believes it to be the stupidest book ever written. He only accepts it through Christianity, and he has to then come up with outlandish interpretations of the Torah to square it with Christianity. It takes him quite some time to become a Christian, though he believes it to be true. He does not wish to give up his lifestyle, particularly his mistress. (Later, he would leave her, though they have a son, rather than marry her.) One day, he comes across the story of some young men who had converted to Christianity. Moved by their story, he finally comes to Jesus in a shower of tears. (A friend converts with him at the same time, who seems to me to only have been emulating Augustine, whom he admired greatly.)
Augustine had a great sense of guilt for much of his life. The weight of this is in my opinion one of the things that moved him to accept Jesus. Another, and an important fact, was his ignorance of Torah and what it meant. Like many people, he saw the Jews as a backward and ignorant people. He did not really know Torah, but because his mother was a Christian, he had heard parts of it. But he did not really understand its meaning.
This is the condition of the non-Jew that accepts Jesus. He is not a Torah scholar that has devoted himself to understanding its meaning. The missionary introduces him to a few select verses and passages, and the missionary explains to him what these passages mean. These are all taken out of context, but the target for conversion does not know. He is shown that Jesus fulfilled prophecies x, y, and z. And he does not know any better. It looks miraculous to him. From then on, he will only be able to understand Torah through the lens of Jesus. His Bible will be filled with underlined passages, but they will not be about the repayment owed if one should steal. It will not be about proper speech. It will not be about avoiding idolatry. No, the passage will be some ‘type or shadow’. And one can hardly blame him. This is what he was taught.
Nor is this a modern problem. According to Acts, the Jewish people did not take to Jesus. Supposedly there were thousands being converted at first, but soon little headway was being made among the Jews. So, the early Christians began teaching the non-Jewish world. This seems to have been Paul’s work initially and primarily. According to Acts, the reason is that the Jewish people in the places Paul taught did not believe his message. But the non-Jews did. We know from his writings that Paul readily misrepresented Torah. The poor non-Jews just did not know any better. The knowledgeable Jews turned away.
The NT also admits that it was ignorant Jews that followed Jesus. Those who had little discernment and little education followed him. And it is the same today. The Jews who are most likely to be converted are those that are not Torah observant. Those with a knowledge of Torah do not follow after Jesus. He is not important to their lives. They dedicate themselves to HaShem’s Torah. The misrepresentations of Tanach by the missionaries do not fool them, because they are studied in the truth already.
You have written that many people are coming to Torah through Jesus. Well, many people are coming to Torah without Jesus. The latter group has a real advantage. They do not read the Torah in order to find Jesus in its pages. They do not have to warp its meaning as Matthew, as Paul, and as Augustine. But one who comes to Torah through Jesus is distracted. His attention is constantly being pushed back toward Jesus. He reads the Torah looking for hints toward the object of his affection. He has trouble serving God, because he is trying to serve Jesus.
This is why I think you have the question backward. Those who come to Jesus in the first place are the ignorant, whether Jew or non-Jew. It is not impossible that some people that turn away from Christianity do it for the wrong reasons. Some people do leave because of hurts caused by those in the Church. I think few of those gravitate toward Judaism, though some may. On the other hand, people who accept Jesus as the way to God are usually uninformed. They have not had a life of Torah study. And the Torah has been represented to them only as a way to Jesus. They accept this because they do not know any better.
Jim
R’B,
Yes, I’ve read Jim’s blog. He describes the struggle which I can identify with. However I don’t remember any solid scriptural reasons given. What I’ve seen is Christians discovering the paganism in their beliefs, discovering they been lied to by the Church, discovering revisionist history, discovering textual criticism and before you know it they are building momentum and on such a down hill slide, they don’t slow down or stop to look as close as they first did when they started. They end up throwing the real Yeshua out with the bath water.
I do not have a blog.
Jim
Jim did’nt you post a link to your story about coming out of Christianity? ……..as I’m writing it’s coming back to me, I think it was Fred who goes by a Hebrew name on this site. I stand corrected. My apologies.
CP,
Yes there is a post about my coming out of Christianity, but I do not have a blog. This is R’ Blumenthal’s blog, and he has honored me by making posts of some of my comments, including that one. The only post I proposed as an article was “Invisible Perfect” that I remember. As I recall, the post about me coming out of Christianity is not an argument, and one should not expect it to read as one. But it has been quite some time since I wrote it, and I may be misremembering.
Jim
CP Have yo not read Jim’s comments to you?! They are full with Scripture – I never met a Christian who could give a real Scriptural justification to follow Jesus 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
eflat7,
It is to much to go into at the moment, but the short answer from my research is Yeshua appears to be ‘the most high ben Elohim’ in a real sense as the Ben Elohim are sparsely mentioned in the Tanakh and are different from Angels.
CP,
You may find that “ben elohim” are not what you think, and your distinction is based on English translations.. As well, you have said you don’t actually worship Jesus (which is good as CR pointed out we are not to worship the whole host), and that you only just highly respect Jesus and owe him thanks. Yet you haven’t explained yet why you owe him anything. It seems to me that unless you have an answer to this there is little reason to argue “for Jesus“. And why you only consider only some Christian texts authoritative is unclear.
Actually it is argued from the Hebrew. For example read Psalm 82.1 in Hebrew. In English the real meaning is obscured except in a couple of translations, the ESV and NRSV if I remember correctly get it right.
CP, the Hebrew word “elohim” has several meanings, one of which is “judges” or “leaders.”
See for example Exodus 4:16 in the original Hebrew:
וְדִבֶּר הוּא לְךָ אֶל הָעָם וְהָיָה הוּא יִהְיֶה לְּךָ
לְפֶה וְאַתָּה תִּהְיֶה לּוֹ לֵאלֹהִים
The bnei elohim you refer to (lowercase “e”) means the sons of the rulers (i.e. the nobility).
Exactly!
Therefore you apply meaning to the word supposedly by context, however in this case it is really by a preconceived theological bias.
What about Genesis 6:2?
That the bnei HaElohim saw the banot HaAdam that they were tovot; and they took them nashim of all which they chose.
Or
Job 6:1?
Now there was a yom when the Bnei HaElohim came to present themselves before Hashem, and Hasatan came also among them.
CP, since you were thrown off by the small “g,” I will rephrase my question.
Is it then a greater sin in your mind to reject Jesus than to worship him as God?
That is what Dr. Brown whom you are defending from Rabbi B. does. He worships Jesus as God. And that is why I asked the question.
Who commits the greater sin? Rabbi B. who serves only God and adheres to His Torah as best he can or Dr. Brown who worships Jesus as God and does not obey most of God’s commandments?
I’m not following your point about bnei elohim, CP. Tanach mentions sons of rulers. Would you please explain the relevance of that to this discussion because I am completely confused? Thanks!
Eleazar,
I’m not a big supporter of New Testament systematic theology, I mainly stay with Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, Peter, Jude, James and Revelation
That’s ridiculous, CP. It is all either scripture or it isn’t. The same sources that canonized Matthew also canonized Hebrews. Or are you like Martin Luther, who put the book of James in the appendix because he disagreed with it? In other words, you disagree with most of the NT and what Christians believe. But since you mentioned John, remember he said that anyone who sins “does not know him”, the same as Hebrews. You cherry pick the parts you like, that support your personal feelings, rather than form your view from the whole of the NT.
But since you say you reject the basic gospel narrative and the superiority of Jesus’ sacrifice, then what does Jesus have to offer that is any different from anyone else?
Eleazar,
I’m sorry if it offends you that I do not respect the Roman Catholic Church opinion and accept only what Scriptures THEY have deemed acceptable. I may be wrong but see a number of problems with the New Testament, so until I understand more I just stick with the recorded words of Yeshua and those who were closest to him. What’s wrong with that?
Concerned Reader
Surely you recognize irrational thought? Why is it perfectly acceptable to a Orthodox Jew to view Rabbi Menachim Schneerson as a Messiah yet view Yeshua with utter contempt? Something just doesn’t smell right.
Just because main stream Christianity has been corrupted in no way means there wasn’t originally a kernel of truth. You know history, how great and noble movements couched in the truth are corrupted over time. It is a repeatable, verifiable scientific fact. Orthodox Judaism is not immune, study the Second Temple period and see exactly how the Pharisees positioned themselves to take over the leadership of Judaism. Many think traditional Judaism has always been a Rabbinical system, this is not true. The Rabbinical system is not much older than Christianity and has its own skeletons in the closet.
Sure, Orthodox Judaism has presented many valid provable points to reject mainstream Christianity but has yet to deliver on valid reasons for rejecting Yeshua himself. So far all I’ve seen is out of context quotes, out of historical context and out of cultural context arguments and assumptions. While I agree there is a incorrect way to view Yeshua and a correct way, I don’t think the correct view is to throw him in the trash.
However, if Yeshua is so repulsive, I’d like to hear excatly why instead of hearing how repulsive mainstream Christianity is.
Actually, CP, mainstream Orthodox Jews outside Chabad (which is a tiny minority of Orthodox Jews) are uneasy with the belief that Schneerson is the messiah.
In fact, fringe elements of the Chabad movement show how Christianity may have begun. A charismatic leader attracts a bunch of fans. They cannot accept his death and therefore decide he is the messiah. At the fringes, a deification process has already begun, although denounced by mainstream Chabad. See?
It may surprise you to learn that it’s uncommon for a non-Chabad Jew to marry into Chabad. The process of elimination through non-intermarriage has also already begun.
Also, CP, I take exception to your implication that anyone here has said that Jesus and/or Christianity is repulsive. Idolatry is repulsive. Worshiping a man as god is repulsive. Making a man the center and focus of your worship even if you don’t call him god is repulsive. It’s nothing personal against Jesus or Christians!
Having said that, I did present you with three categories of statements attributed to Jesus which automatically disqualify him from being a Jewish leader. You responded only to one false prophecy which you think I have misrepresented.
The truth is, you’ve been given lots of reasons from Rabbi B. and the commenters on this blog why acceptance of Jesus is untenable, yet you haven’t shown how what we say is out of context, misquoted, etc.
CP, please realize that the Pharisees saved Judaism. If not for their leadership, it would not have survived the destruction of the Second Temple. Even Christian writers of history recognize this fact (see for example Paul Johnson, a devout Roman Catholic, in A History of the Jews).
CP, you say there is a “correct way” to view Jesus that is neither idolatrous, nor alien to scripture. I assume you mean in the sense of viewing Jesus as a Shaliach, as the righteous head of the generation, or the like? Sort of how the Ebionites viewed him? IE Jesus is not divine, but he is the prophet to whom we all must listen? His neshama may be on the level of something angelic, and therefore has exalted language applied metaphorically?
The issue boils down to this. Whatever theological option you choose, Jesus is still made a focus that ends of (many times inadvertently) detracting from the commandments, the chief content of the covenant.
I know you see some very Christian like, or primitive Jesus believer like ideas in Judaism CP, I see them too. Remember, those notions are not halacha. That theological homiletic thinking is all pudding, its not something that proves, or sets firm foundation, it does not divide wheat.
Read my article “what does the resurrection prove.” In it I show that even the NT itself says to focus on the commandments, not on claims to deity or prophethood. If you listen to Jesus’ message, he as a person becomes secondary.
The problem CP is that to listen to Jesus and to follow his code of ethics has nothing to do with accepting his person or claims regarding him. A person who is not a Christian or Jesus affiliated can live a life more in step with Jesus’ ethic than a believer. We have seen this clearly. As a matter of fact, I would say that if there is one group on the face of the earth whose day to day life is similar to Jesus’ it would be that of his people who reject any theology about him.
You mentioned the Rebbe of Lubavitch. I would add to this list Shabbatai Tzvi, Jacob Frank, and Rebbe Nachman. These are all men who went down the route of being extremely venerated by their students. They were all deemed by their followers to have a messianic dimension, and the students all said their teachers were to be obeyed. The problem is, in their call for this obedience o their teachers, the message of the teachers got lost.
Look at what Yeshua himself says in Mathew 7. Look at what he did in John 6:15. Actions indeed speak louder than words. Doesn’t it strike you that Jesus doesn’t want to be showered with attention according to his own statements and actions? Better to walk the walk than have the club card.
Concerned Reader,
Thank you for giving me some rabbit trails to run down! I will read your article when time permits, currently I’m getting ready for work. As for John 6:15;
So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.
I believe this to be more a matter of wrong intentions and poor timing. There is something in your post I’d like to respond to, but it will have to wait, currently I’m out of time, perhaps this evening. Again thank you for your informative post.
>>>>>Now to answer;
In my mind the consequences are more dire to reject the one Hashem sent than to pay homage due a most high ben elohim acting as a representative of Hashem.<<<<<
You realize you changed/skewed the question without actually answering the one she asked, right?
Eleazar,
Yes, and why do you think I did that?
Could it possibly be the question was skewed with ambiguities???
Here is a answer which may satisfy:
Draw a line 7 inches long, divide the line into 1″ increments. Label the center line 0″ and each end of the line 3″ At one end of the line write “reject Yeshua”. At the other end of the line write “worship Jesus as a idol god”. At 0″ write “pay the appropriate homage due a ben elohim of Hashem”
There you go; a picture is worth a thousand words.
CP, I’m afraid no one else finds the question ambiguous but rather crystal clear. Speaking for myself, I find your reluctance to answer it directly rather telling, forgive me.
Sigh……Dina,
It is the undefined terms in your question which are ambiguous. You don’t see that?
I have answered this question throughly two times and fully expect to be accused in the future of side stepping this question and not answering it.
I’m being honest, not playing word games and doing the best I can, but I can’t MAKE you understand my answer. If you feel clarification is needed, then ask away, I’ll answer the best I know how.
Okay, CP, I will try to ask the question differently, and maybe that will help.
Statement one: it is a sin to reject Jesus.
Statement two: it is a sin to worship a man as God.
What is worse: to reject Jesus, or to worship him as God?
Who is committing the greater sin against God: Dr. Brown who worships Jesus as God, or Rabbi B. who worships God alone and rejects Jesus altogether?
I hope that is more clear. I have made this as stark as I know how.
>Statement one: it is a sin to reject Jesus.
Deu 18:19
‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
>Statement two: it is a sin to worship a man as God.
Jer 17:5
Thus says the LORD,
“Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind
And makes flesh his strength,
And whose heart turns away from the LORD.
>What is worse: to reject Jesus, or to worship him as God?
Since both are missing the mark as seen above I suppose the worse one is the one done in lessor ignorance and greater intensity.
>Who is committing the greater sin against God: Dr. Brown who worships Jesus as God, or Rabbi B. who worships God alone and rejects Jesus altogether?
Who am I, G-d!? That I could judge such a thing!?
CP No one expects you to be God – but if God made one thing clear in Tanach it is the answer to this question
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
R’B, with all due respect, I think Tanach teaches us to do our best to hit the mark, not just get closer than the other guy.
It is sin to worship the one sent as G-d himself.
It is sin to reject the one sent as not from G-d.
Hitting the mark is paying the proper homage to the one sent in G-d’s name.
It puzzles me why this is such a important question. Essentially it is asking one to choose the lessor of two evils rather than choosing the good
CP Tanach gives us a perspective on life – the Author of that book took the pain to ensure that His readers know the answer to this question – He thinks its important – and if you would imbibe teh Tanach perspective you would understand why. It is for the same reason that it is important for a partner in a marriage to know that it is a deeper violation of the marriage relationship when one partner enters into an adulterous relationship with someone other than his/her spouse as opposed to not answering the phone when the spouse calls – and if someone cannot answer the question as to which of these two sins is worse – they don’t realize what marriage is all about – or should I say they are not magnifying the sin of not answering the phone – they are minimizing adultery
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
CP,
Forgive me for hammering this question. I know you think you responded to it thoroughly and perhaps are frustrated that I keep raising it. I ask for your patience, because I wouldn’t do this if I didn’t think it was important.
Let us say a man regularly kills people for sport. One of his favorite pastimes is throwing slaves he captured in war into an arena with starving wild animals and watching the animals rip apart the terrified and desperate slaves.
Another man brings home pens and pencils from his cubicle at work.
Would it be fair to say that the murderer is committing the greater sin or must we say that it is “asking one to choose the lessor of two evils rather than choosing the good”?
To those of us who see the gravity of committing idolatry as expressed throughout the Hebrew Bible the answer is a no-brainer.
Please remember the context in which I originally posed the question: Rabbi B. is defending Judaism from the idol-worshiping Dr. Brown (who tries to lead other Jews into his idol worship). CP then lectures Rabbi B. for doing so, thus ipso facto answering my question before I even asked it. The reason I asked, however, was to clarify the problem.
In this context, there wasn’t a question of choosing what you think is the good. You chose the idol worshiper over the monotheist. I wonder why you did that.
Please realize that Rabbi B. and I disagree with you that Jesus was sent by God. You quoted Deuteronomy 18:19 to show how serious a sin it is to disobey one who is sent by God. It is even more serious a sin to follow one who is not sent by God, as Deuteronomy 13:2-6 shows (where a false prophet must be put to death).
According to the criteria in both chapters in Deuteronomy (and others), Jesus is a false prophet. We have shown you this in great detail.
Please understand that the same people that accept the Hebrew prophets (fiery words and all) is the same people that rejected Jesus. It is inconsistent to accept our testimony about God and His prophets and reject it when it comes to Jesus. Why does this not trouble you?
The prophets foretold that at the end of days we will be vindicated to the eyes of all nations. Finally, they will learn that they inherited nothing but lies from their fathers. I pray you take this to heart.
Jeremiah 16:19: O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!”
Zechariah 8:23: So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Isaiah 25:1-8: [I’m only typing starting from verse 7.] On this mountain he will eliminate the faces [wearing] veils, that are veiled, of all the nations, and the masks that mask all the nations….He will remove the shame of His nation from upon the entire earth, for the Lord has spoken.
Isaiah 60:1-3: Arise! Shine! For your light has arrived, and the glory of the Lord shines upon you. For behold, darkness may cover the earth and a thick cloud [may cover] the kingdoms, but upon you the Lord will shine, and His glory will be seen upon you. Nations will walk by your light and kings by the brilliance of your shine.
Psalm 9: The wicked may appear successful but eventually they will receive their due, while the afflicted righteous ones will be uplifted.
R’B,
If you don’t mind me pointing out; it is our spouse who decides what is important to them, not us.
Deu 18:19
‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
Apparently answering the phone is pretty important to Hashem.
The question being asked above implies the text should rather read:
“It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, that person may ignore the one who I send to speak in my Name if they do not worship him as a idol. Then nothing more will be required of him.”
I’m sorry, but that doesn’t even sound right. However I do sometimes speculate that the Gospel message is only for the Lost Sheep of Israel, but that’s quite a few hoops to jump through to make it stick. It is a rabbit trail yet to be explored, if I only had more time!
CP So you read Tanach and came to the conclusion that idolatry and disobeying the prophet are the same? Do you not recognize that there are levels of disobedience in the eyes of God? For example – where does it say to kill the disobeyer of the prophet? Where does it say to distance oneself from such a person?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
CP, I’d like to draw your attention to this comment. Unfortunately, we got a little sidetracked with our drama :).
Oops, I forgot to post it. https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2016/09/18/post-script-for-responding-to-distractions/#comment-29490
R’B,
I thank you for taking your time to converse with me.
To answer your question; this is what I see when reading, praying and meditating on Torah:
*At Sinai our fathers made a calf to represent the G-d who brought them out of Egypt. Clearly this was not how Hashem wished to be worshipped and they were severely disciplined.
*At the entrance to the promise land our fathers refused to believe Moses the one God sent, they also refused to believe Joshua and Caleb, they all to the last man died in the desert.
So in the light of Torah I believe it is better to worship Hashem in ignorance and be corrected than to entirely reject the the one sent in Hashem’s name and die.
Therefore if Yeshua is the Messiah it would be a greater sin to reject him than to worship him as a idol, for we can be corrected. But if we refuse to listen to the one Hashem sends in his Name how can we be corrected when we won’t listen? We will die in the desert.
Dina,
The answer to your question you’ve been hammering on 😋 is right above this one ^^^
Hi CP,
Your response doesn’t take into account what Rabbi B. says here:
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2016/09/18/post-script-for-responding-to-distractions/#comment-29500
You chose a poor example when you consider that they believed the other 10 Nesi’im who were also sent by God and they were punished for that.
That’s why it’s so important to evaluate the message more than the messenger. Even those sent by God can become corrupted. This is what Deuteronomy teaches.
Dina wrote:
“That’s why it’s so important to evaluate the message more than the messenger. Even those sent by God can become corrupted. This is what Deuteronomy teaches.”
>Dina, I think you make a fantastic point!
So then to apply your wise words; to our situation; What is the message of Yeshua and what makes it worthy of rejection?
R’B
I didn’t want you to think I ignored your post. I see your point, it is a good point and worth taking a more in depth look even though I feel Deut. 18:19 covers it.
Since I do not worship Yeshua as a idol my goal here isn’t to find out which is the worse sin, rather it is to find if there is a acceptable view of Yeshua other than rejection.
CP, you are again forgetting why I asked that question to begin with. You jumped to the defense of the idol worshiper Dr. Brown rather than join forces with the monotheist Rabbi B. against the idolaters just because he believes that it is a great sin to follow a false prophet. This shows that you believe that idolatry is the lesser sin, although you seem reluctant to answer the question directly. You would not, I presume, be troubled to answer the question of which is the worse crime, murder or shoplifting. So why is this different? Why the discomfort?
Dina,
I did not jump to the defense of Dr Brown, I respect his knowledge and dedication, however it puzzles me how he can be a trinitarian.
Secondly you changed your wording which effectively changes the question. May I humbly and respectfully ask you don’t do that, it makes it very difficult to communicate with you.
Okay for the ‘new improved question’ : Which is the greater sin; following a false prophet or idol worship. (As opposed to ‘rejecting a true prophet or idol worship’)
>I would say idol worship<
I don’t think Yeshua endorsed a wait and see attitude. He did say if we wanted to know if his words were true that we just need to put his words into action and we would know. But the problem here is his words are no different than Torah except where he expands on the Kingdom of G-d.
Did you have something particular in mind that shows a wait and see endorsement by Yeshua?
CP Jesus decidedly did NOT endorse a wait and see attitude – even though that was the morally correct position
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
CP I propose two other approaches aside from rejection – ignore or wait and see 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
R’B,
I understand ignore, I’ve read some testimonies of those who took this approach, but I don’t understand what you mean by “wait and see”.
Would you kindly explain?
CP I mean wait and see until you can sort out the evidence either way – by the way – quick question – what was Jesus’ attitude to those who took the “wait and see” option? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
It is mentioned here that, “Sinai and Exodus were fiery experiences that seared the perception of God into the minds and the hearts of the people who experienced it.”
Is this statement really true? How many who witnessed Sinai entered the promised land?
What was the L-RD’s essential judgment of those at Sinai?
“Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers.” [Deuteronomy 1]
And if Israel be judged “evil”– how much more the Goyim!
So, by Israel’s example at Sinai, Elohim makes a simple statement to all mankind– great signs and wonders mean nothing unless accompanied by faith in the One who worked them.
____________________
Question– Why then do we find L-rd Yeshua give only “one” sign?
Answer– Since the many signs and wonders during the Exodus and Sinai didn’t “work” for that evil generation, why should Elohim do a repeat “performance” to a new evil generation?
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Instead, we’re given the single, yet much greater “sign of Jonah” in order to cause all peoples to consider that it is faith in the promised Redeemer, L-rd Yeshua, that makes us righteous enough to enter into Elohim’s presence in the Olam Haba [that is, the eternal, greater “promised land”].
And what of Righteousness by Faith?
** It comes by a greater sign that can be experienced by all mankind–
** It leads to a greater, eternal reward that can be experienced by all mankind–
** . . .and so fulfills the promise to Abraham in Genesis 12/15/17 and that of Deuteronomy 32:43 and other passages in the Tanakh that bond Jew and Gentile in true worship of Elohim.
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So, who is this Anointed One, L-rd Yeshua?
–He is the Holy Redeemer HaShem promised to mankind after Adam and Chava sinned
–He is El-Shaddai, the One who Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob visibly saw
–With Him, Abraham even enjoyed a meal of bread, milk, and meat
–Moses spoke with Him face to face,
–the Elders ate in His presence
Plenty of witnesses according to the Law–
Elohim loves to freely gives His mercy to all through Faith in His Redeemer– “Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.” [Habakkuk 2].
Kavi? Are you a messianic again? Why?
Concearned Reader,
99% who witnessed Mountain Sinai died. Lacked Faith<<<<<
Including Moses who didn't speak to the Rock! Lacked Faith<<<<<<<<
Caleb had a different spirit (Faith) and believed God.(Numbers 14:24)
Like Abraham was told to go to the UNKNOWN= Faith
Yeshua the only (Rejected Hebrew) believers go to the Unknown (Way, Truth, Life)= Faith
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