If we focus on what God teaches us about the Sabbath in the Jewish Scriptures it will become obvious that not only did the followers of Jesus do away with God’s Sabbath (something that they never tried to hide), but that the belief system built around Jesus is the very antithesis of God’s Sabbath. It was through the Sabbath that God empowered and encourages the Jewish people to reject the claims of this self-proclaimed god-man.
The Sabbath is the sign that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh (Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, 31:12-17).
The one truth that is the underlying principle of the Jewish Scriptures is the fact that God is God and everything else are but His creations. This truth is stated explicitly in the first verse of the Bible, and is the implicit message of every verse that follows. This foundational truth: that God is the One Master of all, was made known to the Jewish people through the miracles of the exodus and through the Sinai revelation (Deuteronomy 4:35). God’s absolute sovereignty is brought home to the hearts of the Jewish people through the observance of Sabbath, and the Jewish people testify this truth to the world through the observance of Sabbath.
The heart of the Jew’s calling before God is that we stand as witnesses to the ultimate truth: the fact that God alone is Lord (Isaiah 44:8), and it is through observance of the Sabbath that the Jew dispenses his calling before God. It is for this reason that the Sabbath is the covenantal sign between God and His people, and it is for this reason that commandment to observe the Sabbath is situated together with the commandment against idolatry and the injunction to honor our parents (Exodus 20:1-12, Leviticus 19:3-4).
The commandment against idolatry is based on our understanding that God is the only one deserving of our devotion to the exclusion of everyone and everything else. The commandment to honor our parents reminds us, as does the Sabbath, that our own existence is not an intrinsic truth but rather a gift that God chose to grant us through the medium of our parents.
God granted man control of all of creation (Genesis 1:28, Psalm 8:7). With the mastery of the earth placed in his hands, it is very easy for man to forget that he is a servant and fall into the illusion of thinking that he is master. By relinquishing control of the world once a week, the Jew reminds himself and testifies to all who care to hear, that we are not the masters, but rather, that we are all servants of the One Master.
Observance of the Sabbath gave the Jew an unambiguous and explicit perspective of reality. When the Jew encounters a rock, a plant an animal, a fellow human or an angel – the Sabbath tells the Jew – this form of existence is not your master – it is a creation of your God just as you are. While the populations around them were enslaved to the beliefs that they are subservient to forces of nature or to people who were born into a higher station in life – the Sabbath set the Jew free. The truth of the Sabbath gave the Jew the clarity to see through the intimidating posture of those who claimed to be the masters of men. The Sabbath reminded the Jew that there is but One Master, and that all are equally subservient to Him.
When the Christian missionaries presented Jesus as “man’s lord” (page 229), the nations who did not know the message of the Sabbath were taken in. They accepted this false teaching and believed themselves to be under the mastery of this Jesus.
The Jew, however, who had absorbed the message of Sabbath was enabled by the Sabbath to identify this teaching for what it is – a call to idolatry. The Sabbath taught the Jew that no-one but the One Creator of heaven and earth can lay claim to the title of: “Master”. When any one inhabitant of God’s creation claims to be the master – the Sabbath tells us – he is but a servant like ourselves.
The Sabbath is the very antithesis of Christianity. It is no wonder then that the followers of Jesus developed such a hatred and scorn for God’s holy day. As for us, we will walk in the light of God’s holy Sabbath until the darkness of Christianity is dispelled and all flesh will recognize that God alone is king (Zechariah 14:9).
“Observance of the Sabbath has been the hallmark of the Jewish people, separating us from other nations and identifying us with the covenant of God. Since Christianity changed the Sabbath, Christianity is obviously not for the Jewish people.”
Brown responds to this Jewish objection by pointing out that the gentile Church, who changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, was not following Jesus. Jesus himself did not teach that the day of rest be changed. Brown therefore argues that one can believe in Jesus and still observe the Sabbath.
The question that Brown does not address is: Why did the later Church change the day of rest? Why did the gentile Church develop such a negative view of this covenantal sign? Is it merely a coincidence that those who deified a human chose to abandon the commandment that serves as a reminder that everything, including Jesus, are but God’s creations?
There is another message of the Sabbath that is antithetical to Christianity. The Sabbath serves as a testimony that God sanctifies Israel (Exodus 31:13). The Sabbath confirms that Israel was chosen by God to serve as His witness nation. Their role is to testify to the world that everything that exists is but a creation of God.
Christianity rejects this message of the Sabbath as well. Christianity denies Israel’s role as God’s witnesses. If they would have any respect for the message of the Sabbath they would pay heed to the witnesses that the Sabbath authenticates.
If a Jew accepts the doctrines of Christianity, he or she will have to turn their backs on the Sabbath. Yes, they can continue observing the Sabbath, but it will be a dead observance.
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
Tremendous clarity, as always!
R’B,
Perhaps I can answer your questions, however I’m pretty sure you already know the answers. 😉
The question that Brown does not address is: Why did the later Church change the day of rest?
> Constantine empowered the Catholic Church to help facilitate a united empire through combining religions. Most including himself worshipped the sun on Sunday which coincidentally was the same day Jesus resurrected, so they went with it. Same thing happened with Christmas/winter solstice and Easter/Passover.
This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the message of Yeshua.
Why did the gentile Church develop such a negative view of this covenantal sign?
>Since this hybrid Christianity was declared the religion of the Empire anyone not with the program was seen as unpatriotic and enemies of the Roman Empire.
I think it is important not to underestimate the ignorance of the Gentiles, the Jews were the only ones who knew the truth.
Again, nothing to do with Jews who accepted Yeshua as Messiah, this was a gentile Catholic Church, Roman Empire power play.
Is it merely a coincidence that those who deified a human chose to abandon the commandment that serves as a reminder that everything, including Jesus, are but God’s creations?
>No coincidence, in fact it is just the tip of the iceberg. Look where the Protestant reformation ended up. They threw off the Catholic Church but kept Sunday observance and ended up with Hyper grace doctrines. But not all, Seventh Day Adventists observe a sun up Saturday Sabbath but totally ignore the Feasts. Why would any disciple of Yeshua ignore the Feasts? Yeshua died on Passover, rose on First Fruits, gave the Spirit on Shavuot. As Messiah Ben Yoseph Yeshua fulfilled the spring Feasts. So why wouldn’t one expect Messiah ben David to fulfill the fall feasts? Especially when the book of Revelation starts out with blowing trumpets!!!
” As Messiah Ben Yoseph Yeshua fulfilled the spring Feasts. So why wouldn’t one expect Messiah ben David to fulfill the fall feasts?”
Don;t know if you ever responded to Dina on this, but how is Messiah Ben Joseph going to come back as Messiah Ben David if they are the same person?
Eleazar,
Yes, I do remember Dina asking that.
First we need to realize we and the Rabbis who first came up with this idea are not only trying to peer into the unseen future but the unseen spiritual realm. We do the best we can with what we’ve been given. The Rabbis saw two diametrically opposed descriptions of Messiah. They termed these two descriptions Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David. They speculated there would be two Messiahs or one Messiah that would come twice or once dependant on Israel’s repentance.
The Greek scriptures record the resurrected Yeshua saying he will come back in the clouds which fits Messiah son of David description. Just because the Messiahs have different descriptions doesn’t mean it isn’t the same person coming at different times to accomplish a different work. The Greek scriptures say Yeshua is currently to God as Joseph was to Pharaoh so to speak and will come back when it is time. Excatly when and how this is supposed to happen? Not even Yeshua knows, only God knows.
“The Greek scriptures say Yeshua is currently to God as Joseph was to Pharaoh …”
No kidding? Can you please post chapter and verse?
“Just because the Messiahs have different descriptions doesn’t mean it isn’t the same person coming at different times to accomplish a different work. ”
CP, one cannot be of both Joseph’s lineage and of David’s. Two different tribes.
I think you trying to read too much into obscure teachings because you think you can put together a narrative that works for you. The “two messiahs” theory was not the conventional wisdom nor was it common among “the rabbis”. It was mentioned as a theoretical possibility once or twice in the entire corpus of Jewish thought. Those same “the rabbis” you speak of also taught that the two messiahs were two completely different persons that appear within the same time frame. So you accept part of the theory, the two messiahs, but reject the other parts from the same literary source. But even more interesting is that you are building your theology/christology from sources you do not accept as inspired, but accept [ certain parts] as though it is the word of God.
I mean, your entire approach, like all Christians, is to cherry pick everything and pull out what fits your own theory, while rejecting everything else connected to it or from the same sources that would contradict your use of the text. You do this with rabbinical sources and with both the Jewish and Christian scriptures. If you can fit your own personal concept of Jesus into the text, then you accept the text as “the word of God”. If you can’t then you throw it aside as “the words of men”.
Doesn’t your conscience prick at you for that? It would if it were me.
According to Torah, why did the Pharisees consider L-rd Yeshua evil for healing on the Sabbath?
KAVI
The supposed violation wasn’t “according to Torah” it was according to Takanot, the rules and traditions added to the Torah as binding. Basically if anything, it was a violation of a particular interpretation of “Oral Torah”.
Eleazar, as you requested.
(Btw, you took a sentence of mine, cut it in half and quoted it as a whole sentence, I’m hoping that was an oversight on your part rather than intentional deception)
Also, I don’t think you know how to read the Talmud, one doesn’t have to believe it is the “Word of God” to believe it is a true Rabbinical commentary on scripture reflecting authoritative Jewish thought throughout the ages.
PROMOTED TO HONOR AND GLORY AND GIVEN A NEW NAME
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See I have set thee over all the land of Egypt (Gen. 41:41). (See also Gen. 41:45a.)
God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a new name which is above every name (Phil.
2:9)
HE FORETOLD THAT ONE DAY HE WOULD RULE
Your sheaves stood…and made obeisance to my sheaf (Gen. 37:7).
You [shall] see Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven (Matt. 26:64b).
BELOVED OF HIS FATHER
Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children (Gen. 37:3a).
This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased (Matt. 3:17b).
ENVIED AND HATED WITHOUT A CAUSE
And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more they…hated him… (Gen 37:4)
The chief priests had delivered him for envy (Mark 15:10).
They hated me without a cause (John 15:25b).
A ROOT OUT OF DRY GROUND
He was the son of his [Jacob’s] old age (Gen. 37:3b).
He [Messiah] shall grow up before him…like a root out of a dry ground (Isa. 53:2a).
ACCUSED OF BEING A DREAMER (beside himself, deluded) And they said to one another, Behold, this dreamer cometh (Gen. 37:19)
They said, He is beside himself (Mark 3:21b).
SENT BY THE FATHER TO SEEK THE BROTHERS’ WELFARE
Go…see whether it be well with thy brethren (Gen. 37:14a).
I will send my beloved son… (Luke 20:13b).
WENT WILLINGLY AND SOUGHT TILL HE FOUND THEM
And Joseph went after his brethren, and found them… (Gen. 37:17b).
Lo, I come, to do thy will, O God (Heb. 10:9b).
He came unto his own… (John 1:11a).
REJECTED AND CONDEMNED TO DIE
They conspired against him to slay him (Gen. 37:18b).
We will not have this man to reign over us (Luke 19:14b).
But they cried, saying, Crucify him! Crucify him! (Luke 23:21).
STRIPPED OF HIS CLOTHING
They stripped Joseph out of his coat…that was on him (Gen 37:23b).
And they stripped him (Matt. 27:28a).
THROWN INTO A PIT (alone, forsaken)
And they took him, and cast him into a pit (Gen. 37:24a).
So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12:40b).
SOLD FOR SILVER INTO THE HANDS OF GENTILES
They sold Joseph to the lshmaelites twenty pieces of silver; and they brought Joseph into Egypt (Gen. 37:28b).
And they bargained with him [Judas] for thirty pieces of silver (Matt. 26:15b).
RAISED FROM THE PIT
And they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit (Gen. 37:28a).
He rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:4b).
BECAME A SERVANT
And Joseph was brought down to Egypt…and he was in the house of his master, the Egyptian (Gen. 39:1-2).
I am among you as he that serveth (Luke 22:27b).
Took upon him the form of a servant (Phil. 2:7b).
EVERYTHING HE DID PROSPERED
And…the LORD made all that he did to prosper in his hand (Gen. 39:3b).
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand (Isaiah 53:10b).
RESISTED TEMPTATION
The temptation by Potiphar’s wife (Read Gen. 39:7-12).
For such an high priest was fitting…who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners…(Heb. 7:26).
[he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15b).
FALSELY ACCUSED
The Hebrew servant, whom thou hast brought unto us, came in unto me to mock me
(Gen. 39:17-18).
At the last came two false witnesses, And said… (Matt. 26:60b, 61a).
NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS
And Joseph’s master…put him into the prison, a place where the king’s prisoners were bound (Gen. 39:20a).
There they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left (Luke 23:33).
PROMISED DELIVERANCE TO A CONDEMNED MAN
Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee… (Gen. 40:13).
Today shalt thou be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43b).
FORETOLD THE FUTURE ACCURATELY And it came to pass, as he interpreted to us (Gen. 41:13a).
Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he (John 13:19).
PROVED TO BE A GREAT COUNSELLOR
Forasmuch as God hath shown thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art (Gen. 41:39).
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor… (Isa. 9:6b).
ALL PEOPLE COMMANDED TO BOW TO HIM
And they cried before him, Bow the knee (Gen. 41:43b).
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (Phil. 2:10a).
PROVIDED FOR ALL IN NEED
And all the countries came…to Joseph to buy grain (Gen. 41:57a).
I am the bread of life; he that cometh to me shall never hunger (John 6:35a).
HIS PEOPLE DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM
And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him (Gen. 42:8).
Have I been such a long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me…? (John 14:9a).
But their minds were blinded (2 Cor. 3:14a).
HIS BROTHERS WERE TROUBLED WHEN THEY MET HIM
Be not grieved nor angry with yourselves (Gen. 45:5a).
They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn…and shall be in bitterness… (Zech. 12:10b).
ALLOWED HIS BROTHERS TO SUFFER A PERIOD OF TRIBULATION Read Gen. 42:6 through 44:34. it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7b).
For then shall be great tribulation (Matt. 24:21a).
REVELATION AND RECONCILIATION I am Joseph…whom ye sold…God hath made me lord of all…come…unto me… (Gen. 45:3b-9). And so all Israel shall be saved;…as it is written…and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
CP,
So you quote from Jews 4 Jesus, a group that worships Jesus as God. Inasmuch as you have rejected that doctrine, what makes you think that would be a reliable source of information? And does your list not prove Eleazar’s point that you just take whatever you can to fit your theory? Not only that, most of this list does not even relate to your assertion that the NT says that Jesus is to God as Joseph was to Pharaoh. Worse, not one verse in the list makes the comparison you said the NT makes. You have no verse that says that says Jesus is to God as Joseph is to Pharaoh. You attempt to infer that by listing so-called similarities between Joseph and Jesus.
I am beside myself.
Jim
As well you should be, Jim. It is becoming painfully clear that CP did not come here to learn. He already knows the “truth.” This is obvious from his flippant answers, blithe dismissals, and silence on key questions.
And also, I should add, from his obviously dishonest use of Scripture.
CP has accused me of quoting Scripture out of context and of misquoting, without giving a single example. However, when I confronted him about his dishonest misuse of Scripture, he was silent (for example, I confronted him on his disonest use of Psalm 137:9 as support for Jesus’s statement that the Torah teaches to hate your enemies).
Okay, I read all your comparisons. Still waiting for the text where ““The Greek scriptures say Yeshua is currently to God as Joseph was to Pharaoh …” ( yes, it has an elipses, but as Jim pointed out, it does not change the fact that you claim the NT SAYS something they not say).
Where do the Greek NT scriptures SAY Jesus is to God as Joseph was to Pharaoh?
You see, as a former pastor I know the NT REAL well. MUCH better than I know Torah. I know that it says nothing about Jesus being like Joseph.It says even less about Jesus being of the tribes from Joseph ( zero). If it did, trinitarians would have no arguments left, as that would clearly prove Jesus a mere man according to NT.
And BTW, after knocking me for using part of your sentence with an ellipsis, I see you did the same with your scripture texts. ( nice cut and paste, too!)
CP,
Your accusation against Eleazar is both false and hilarious. It is false, because he ended the quote with an ellipsis, which indicates that the sentence continues. Moreover, he did not alter the meaning of your sentence in doing so. In fact, you do not even attempt to show that he somehow altered the meaning.
It is hilarious, because you then go on to make out of Torah whatever you can. You heap insult upon the Torah as you treat it as a mere prop, a set of materials out of which you can fashion a support for your own theology. You show less respect for the Word of God than you do for your own theories. Standing up to defend your own honor, you then treat Torah with such great disrespect that I cannot express sufficiently in words the contempt with which you treat what is holy.
Jim
Jim,
You are correct, Eleazar did go dot dot dot, but you are incorrect in that it didn’t alter the meaning of the sentence.
As for heaping insult on the Torah? Really?
Eleazar requested the information, I merely copied and pasted it for him.
However, I do see Joseph as a prefigured Messiah, but admit some of the verses copied are kind of a stretch.
Yisroel: I enjoyed your paper on Shabbas vs Jesus. Especially from Exodus 31:13 Where Hashem sanctifies the Jew with his gift of Shabbas that sets us aside from all others, even those who choose to use the Shabbas in their own way to preach jesus. Thanks Doovid
CP,
Whatever else one might say about Christianity, the one thing it cannot say is that it is unimaginative. It takes an enormous amount of creativity to read Jesus into the scriptures the way the Church does, just as you do—creativity and single-mindedness. That Torah does not make the Messiah the focal point of its teachings is of no consequence to you, just as it is not to the Church; you will find him in every passage regardless. One of the most absurd readings of Torah, but nonetheless imaginative, is the reading that has Jesus fulfilling the feasts of Judaism.
According to you, Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts, and he will fulfill the later feasts upon his return. But I am left wondering, what was there to fulfill? For example, if someone told me that President Obama had fulfilled Thanksgiving, I would not understand what was meant. The American holiday of Thanksgiving is a day devoted to expressing gratitude for the goods one has received and experienced. Except by observing the day himself, no one can fulfill it.
Similarly, Pesach is a commemoration: “This shall be a day of remembrance for you” (Ex. 12:14). It is a day celebrating a work already accomplished, not a day looking forward to be completion but looking back on what was already done. And it is a day of education, a day to pass on the knowledge that God delivered Israel: “And when your children ask you, ‘What do you mean by this observance?’ you shall say, ‘It is the passover sacrifice to the Lord, for he passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt, when he struck down the Egyptians but spared our houses” (Ex. 12:26-27). The teaching is not about a future expectation, but about what God already did. Nothing indicates that the work God did on Passover was incomplete, requiring further fulfillment.
It is clear that Jesus did not fulfill Passover in the way the Gospel of John would have us believe. Jesus was not a lamb, sacrificed and eaten. This is such an obvious fact that Christians can only combat the facts through accusations of literalism. However, this is an absurd claim. John tries to take literal what he can; he just cannot find a lot of which he can make use. So he writes: “These things occurred so that the scripture might be fulfilled, ‘None of his bones shall be broken’” (John 19:36). It is obvious then that the literal words do matter. It is only that Jesus has so little in common with a Passover lamb, the only connection that could be found is that his legs were not broken. None of the other qualities of the lamb were present in Jesus. He was not a lamb. He was not sacrificed. He was not eaten. So, how does John know which details to take literally? The answer is obvious. Whichever he can use to make Jesus appear to have something in common with the lamb are literal; the rest are figurative. That is to say, he will make use of the scriptures in any way he can to make them yield the desired outcome.
As much as Jesus did not fulfill Passover through his death, he did not fulfill it through proper observance, either. Jesus uses it as an opportunity for self-aggrandizement, to redirect people’s attention from God toward Jesus. Rather than teaching his disciples Torah, rather than teaching them about the great deliverance of Israel, Jesus teaches about himself and his upcoming death. According to Luke, it is at the Passover meal that Jesus teaches: “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me” (Lk. 22:19). Jesus perverts the day, making it to be about himself. This, of course, shows that Jesus did not fulfill the day as a Passover lamb as in the previous paragraph, because his death did not refer Israel to the exodus. But it also shows that Jesus did not fulfill the day through observance. Instead, he attempted to overwrite the day to make it be about himself rather than God.
Just as Passover requires no further fulfillment, nor does Shavuot. HaShem gave to the people of Israel an expression of the divine will. He taught them how they ought to live. And he allowed them to experience divine revelation all together, the entire nation, so that they would know that the commands he gave through Moses did not originate with a man but with God.
Of course, the Lover of Jesus will leap at the idea of divine revelation, claiming that this is what happened at the upper room. However, that is clearly not the case. First, the disciples did not gain from God divine revelation. They only spoke in cacophony, which astounded passersby but did not reveal to them Divine Will. Moreover, this event was small, much smaller than the national revelation at Sinai. It certainly was not an outpouring on all flesh as Peter would claim it to be. The empty claim that some will make that it was a sign of the outpouring on all flesh that is to come is an admission that it has not been fulfilled. Yet I fully expect someone to insist on its significance as a sign of the promise, anyhow.
Some Lovers of Jesus will claim to have this outpouring themselves. They too speak in tongues. However, this has no relation to Pentecost. At Pentecost, the disciples were supposed to have tongues of fire and speak in known languages. Those that claim to have such a gift do not speak in any language, but babble repetition. And they certainly have no flaming tongues. It is doubtful that the disciples did either, but that cannot be checked. What is practiced today by Lovers of Jesus has no verifiable signs. The claim that they speak in tongues is specious and shows that Jesus did not send the comforter. It certainly cannot be said to fulfill Shavuot in anyway.
A Lover of Jesus might say that Jesus fulfilled Shavuot by fulfilling the law. This too is vain. The idea that Jesus fulfilled the law is usually taken in one of two senses. The first is that he kept it properly, that he never sinned. The second is that he taught its deeper truths. These ideas are not mutually exclusive, and are usually held together.
The first is obviously incorrect. As I wrote in my article “Invisible Perfect,” the gospels give us good reason to believe that Jesus was not superlatively good. The people among whom he lived the majority of his life did not notice in him this perfection. They only saw him as a carpenter’s son, identifying him by his family. But, even if the gospels had not mistakenly tipped their hand in this regard, Jesus sins multiple times in the gospels. Some sins many would consider insignificant, such as when Jesus stole some pigs. Because Jesus steals them in the midst of casting out demons, Lovers of Jesus are likely to overlook this sin. His destruction of the fig tree will also strike them as minor, perhaps not even a sin at all. (Though it certainly does not speak well to his character, either way.) But he also dishonors his mother, as when he goes missing without permission, worrying her terribly. If my daughters were missing for three days, I would be frantic. His response to her is not only unapologetic but also accusatory. Perhaps this is why he did not have a long life. (See Ex. 20:12). He breaks the Sabbath. And there are other offenses as well, but my point is not to malign the man. People sin. However, one should recognize that Jesus did not keep the law perfectly.
Nor did Jesus even teach the law particularly well. Lovers of Jesus like to emphasize that the said that one must keep the law and it will not pass away. But he altered the law, creating categories of adultery that did not exist. This is prohibited. Moreover, he shows himself to be ignorant of the Torah. He does not understand the meaning of “eye for an eye” as relating to damages. Alternatively, he does, but he believes that the courts should not maintain justice. Either alternative is horrible. He also teaches that Torah says to hate one’s enemy, which it does not do.
The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew is really a horrifying speech. Jesus opposes his teaching to that of Torah, making out his to be superior. Whenever he says, “You have heard it said,” he quotes from Torah, which he then juxtaposes with his own teaching, “but I say…”. His words then amount to: “The Torah says… but I say” or “God says… but I say”. Until one realizes that he is going to speak against the Torah, one wonders why Jesus announces that he came to fulfill it, not abolish it. What prophet ever had to announce that he did not come to abolish Torah? Jesus had to announce this, because he was going to malign Torah, treating it as incomplete, altering it where necessary. He is like one who says, “I do not wish to speak bad about so-and-so” and then goes on to do just that.
It is obvious why the Jewish world did not heed him. He did not understand Torah. He made himself superior to Torah. He altered Torah. But he in no way completed it. He did not fulfill Shavuot by explaining the real meaning of the law.
And yet Lovers of Jesus will continue to pronounce things like “Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts.” Such assertions are wholly without merit, products of the fancy. They come from reading Torah with one goal in mind, to relate it to Jesus. The hunt for types and shadows, hints and connections leads the Lover of Jesus to ignore the actual meaning of Torah. He downplays differences and exaggerates similarities. Such reading is imaginative but not conducive to understanding.
Jim
Great post Jim,
I would love to to discuss a very interesting general theme in which we find agreement. This post brought it to my attention, but I prefer to wait until the character assassination and general Christian bashing dies down so we can have a good discussion. I may answer some other questions but this topic deserves a civil discussion.
CP,
My idea:
Did you witness when Prime Minister Netanyahu spoke to congress?
When he read story about Moses to the primary Christian base Congress.
They marveled at him.
I can only imagine at the way the disciples even though the outcome resulted in crucifixion, the Gentiles received the Word of God.
The pagan world, Romans, tribal south Americans, ect.
The notion, that there is only 1 God and Yeshua a Hebrew who died for them.
Its crazy how Paul says salvation is 1st for the Jews and then for the Gentiles.
I don’t know how Christianity with only a Jewish origin became something else.
How Yeshua a Hebrew became white, but also is Rejected by some Jewish people.
Its also Crazy how my Faith Started in Israel.
Also the way, everybody in the middle east is trying to force there way into Israels land.
I have no interest to go to Israel. But I do want to see Yeshua Return in the Clouds.
Islam wants Israels Land. and swear islam is peaceful
The Jews are waiting for the Messiah and trying maintain there own land.
Christians are waiting for the Messiah to come in the clouds.
Catholics are praying to mary and honoring the pope.
bible819,
You wrote; “How Yeshua a Hebrew………..is rejected by some Jews”
Just another proof Yeshua was a prophet.
At the time of Messiah’s coming, Israel would have unfit leaders.
Zechariah 11:4-6a Matthew 23:1-4
The Messiah’s brothers would disbelieve him.
Psalm 69:8b John 7:3-5
The Messiah would be the “stone” rejected by the Jews.
Psalm 118:22 Matthew 21:42-43
The Jews would have a hardened heart against the Messiah.
Isaiah 6:9-10a John 12:37-40
The Messiah would be a “stumbling stone” for the Jews.
Isaiah 8:14 Matthew 21:43-44
The unbelief of Israel’s leaders would force the Messiah to reject them.
Zechariah 11:8a Matthew 23:33
The Messiah would stop ministering to the those who rejected Him.
Zechariah 11:9 Matthew 13:10-11
The Messiah would be distressed over the Jews unbelief.
Isaiah 49:4a Luke 19:41-42
The Messiah’s own people would not believe he was the Christ.
Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38
The Messiah would be rejected.
Zechariah 11:12-13b Matthew 26:14-15
The Messiah would be rejected.
Isaiah 53:3b Matthew 27:21-23
The Messiah would be rejected by the Jews.
Isaiah 49:4b John 5:43
The Messiah would be rejected by the Jews.
Psalm 69:8a John 1:11
The Messiah would be rejected in favor of another king.
Zechariah 11:4-6c John 19:13-15
The Messiah would be rejected.
Zechariah 11:12-13b Matthew 26:14-15
The Messiah would be rejected by Gentiles.
Psalm 2:1 Acts 4:25-28
The Messiah would be rejected.
Zechariah 12:10c John 1:11
The Messiah’s rejection would cause God to remove His protection of Israel. Zechariah 11:4-6b Luke 19:41-44
The Messiah’s rejection would cause God to remove His protection of Israel. Zechariah 11:10-11a Luke 19:41-44
Israel would be scattered as a result of rejecting the Messiah
Zechariah 13:7d Matthew 26:31-56
You need to lead my Church! Thanks for real bread.
Church leadership: built on cutting and pasting.
Jim
Jim says:
September 27, 2016 at 11:48 pm
Church leadership: built on cutting and pasting.
Jim,
I would think you would have some cool cut and paste list you could post showing reasons to reject Yeshua as a Messiah, of course backed up with Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
I would be very interested in such a thing
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/09/14/messiah-letter-and-spirit/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/the-messianic-expectation/
CP,
I do not have such a thing, in fact. I type up the scriptures I quote. I do not even cut and paste my own arguments, though I have repeated several. But the point is not that it is lazy to cut and paste, but that it hardly makes one leadership material. It does not reflect thought in any way to just copy what someone has done before. The comment was directed less at you than the too easily pleased 819.
Jim
CP,
Once again, I appreciate you connecting the Prophecy Fulfilled.
*** Salvation is 1st for you, and then for me. Come lead us!!!!!
Jim won’t give scripture but will give you his personal puffed up feelings.
Jim, question-
Has there been a single prophecy fulfilled according to your reading over the last 2,000 years?
bible 819 many – here is one for starters – the followers of Jesus fulfilled Daniel 7:25
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
CP, on September 27, 2016 at 10:40 pm, you make the following statement:
“…..I prefer to wait until the character assassination and general Christian bashing dies down…..”
And then, in less than an hour (at 11:28 pm), you make 20 Jew bashing statements. CP, seriously, do you not see the hypocrisy in this???
Southern Noahide It seems that Jew-bashing is OK – the sinless Jesus did it so it must not be a sin
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
bible819,
The Muslims are waiting for the twelfth Iman to come and bring peace.
The Jews are waiting for the Messiah to come and bring peace
The Christians are waiting for the antichrist to come and bring peace which ends in war before Messiah son of David comes bringing war resulting in 1000 years of peace.
Well said Sir
The real unfortunate thing which breaks my heart is by Jews rejecting the Greek scriptures’s interpretation of Tanakh they have set themselves up to accept a false Messiah. But God keeps His promises and a remnant will survive as before.
Post-trib, premillenial eschatology is less than 200 years old, bro, and was invented by a Jesuit priest at the request of the papacy. In fact using “Yeshua’s 2nd coming as Moshiac Ben David” eschatology is only about 25 years old. But hey, you’re on the cutting edge, right? The patchwork theology of a single man that trumps thousands of educated and dedicated scholars over many centuries. No doubt Maimonides and Hillel are jealous.
Eleazar,
WOW! Babylonian Talmud was written 25 years ago, I thought it was much older. A Jesuit priest you say? I thought it was a Rabbi. It was done at the request of the Pope? Okay that does it, I’m convinced! I’ll just wait for whoever brings world peace ; )
A Brief Note on the Difference Between Joseph and Jesus
God granted Joseph knowledge of dreams. The interpretations he offered came true. When he told the cupbearer and baker of Pharaoh that in three days the one would be released and the other would be killed, both interpretations proved true. Both events happened in three days, just as Joseph said.
Jesus claimed to have knowledge of the future. He told the Pharisees that three days after his death, he would rise from the dead, promising that this would serve as a sign to them. After three days, however, he was nowhere to be found. On the fiftieth day, his disciples claimed victory on his behalf, since he still could not be found. To this day, he has not showed himself to the Pharisees.
Joseph’s interpretations proved true, Jesus’ prophecy false.
Jim
And Yet, he is accredited for Billions of people who claim to follow him, are willing to die for him, and Call him God.
Not to Bad for a (Rejected Hebrew.)
Yeshua is the Son of God sitting with his Father.
You on other hand-
John 7:34
You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.”
**** When the lamb blood covered over the Door Post of the Israelites so that the destroying Spirit would not strike them down-
Israel did not know God.
If they did ***** They wouldn’t have made a Golden Calf.
They perished in the desert.
What (Spirit) did Caleb have to enter the promise land that Moses or that generation that died could not enter????
It must align with
Genesis 26:5: Because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws. (NIV).
No Torah given, But Abraham had a (Circumcised heart.)
The Torah was given because Israel was like Egypt, sinful.
Golden Calf- Torah- didn’t know God. To know what God desires?
But God desires Mercy and not Sacrifice!
1 2 and 3
Hosea 6:2
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
His Sight will not look at Sin. But Yeshua is sinless.
Hence, only (in) Christ whom he loves, we are Saved.
So you post a verse saying that Abraham was praised by God for keeping laws, statutes and commandments, and then say that the verse is an example of Abraham not being praised for keeping any God-given laws, statutes or commandments that he obeyed.
“Israel did not know God. If they did ***** They wouldn’t have made a Golden Calf.”
Of course not all of Israel made or worshiped the golden calf ( and there were also non-Hebrews in attendance). Some did, some didn’t. There was a dividing. If you think about it, Christianity and Jesus perfectly replicates the golden calf event: a physical representation of something common and worldly that can be seen and worshiped as God.
Remember, the idolatrous Israelites said that they would “have a feast to YHVH” in worship of the golden calf. To them it was an icon, no different than a crucifix, a picture of Jesus or a painting of “Madonna with Child”. They did not create a new god, but used a physical, worldly image to represent YHVH God. God said any such icons are idolatry and false worship. Christians have done exactly the same with Jesus: using a man as a “god we can see”.
You want types and shadows, there’s a type and shadow. The golden calf, a god you can see, a type of Jesus, foreshadowed the Christian religion.
So I agree with you on this point: those who believe God can be worshiped through a physical representation do so because they do not know God.
But Yet, God made Yeshua.
Israel made the Golden Calf.
Why didn’t Moses enter the promise land?
God made Yeshua? Interesting comment coming from a Christian. So God made another God?
Hmmmm….I believe you do not even stop to think about what you are saying, Bible819.
Father can have a Son.
bible819 How many firstborn sons can someone have
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Jim
How did anyone ever come to believe that he rose in 3 days? With today’s media we can be blasted into believing just about anything. With personal threats it would happen much faster. Did those people back then believe that or did it take some time for all this to happen and everyone accept it as truth?
nd Yet, he is accredited for Billions of people who claim to follow him, are willing to die for him, and Call him God.
Not to Bad for a (Rejected Hebrew.)
Yeshua is the Son of God sitting with his Father.
You on other hand-
John 7:34
You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.”
**** When the lamb blood covered over the Door Post of the Israelites so that the destroying Spirit would not strike them down-
Israel did not know God.
If they did ***** They wouldn’t have made a Golden Calf.
They perished in the desert.
What (Spirit) did Caleb have to enter the promise land that Moses or that generation that died could not enter????
It must align with
Genesis 26:5: Because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws. (NIV).
No Torah given, But Abraham had a (Circumcised heart.)
The Torah was given because Israel was like Egypt, sinful.
Golden Calf- Torah- didn’t know God. To know what God desires?
But God desires Mercy and not Sacrifice!
1 2 and 3
Hosea 6:2
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
His Sight will not look at Sin. But Yeshua is sinless.
Hence, only (in) Christ whom he loves, we are Saved.
819,
You write, as if it were a badge of honor, that Jesus has billions of followers that call him God and are willing to die for him. I can scarcely imagine a greater mark of ignominy. Should I suffer such a fate as Jesus, I would find my shame too great to bear.
What greater disgrace could there be than for people to worship a man as God?! Billions of people have taken their eyes off of God and devoted their energies to a man. If I were that man, I would wonder what could I have done so wrong that I should become such a curse. I would plead with God for mercy that I should be delivered from having such an evil name. I would beg that no longer should I be an idol, an object of degradation. Is this not a great humiliation?
If such degradation were not enough, in Jesus’ name many people have been driven from their homes, mocked, forcibly converted, and even killed. Were I Jesus, I would mourn the day of my birth that God’s precious children should be killed in my name. And if I said the evil words that were attributed to him in the gospels, and those words contributed to deaths of thousands upon thousands, I could not endure the disgrace of my evil speech and the consequences that followed therefrom. Far from bragging about such things, I would hope to hide from them. I would wish to be relieved from my shame, not boast about it.
If I were Jesus, I would only wish that I had been rejected, that my name had been forgotten, and that my disgrace would be taken from me.
Jim
Are you Speaking of the Catholic Crusades?
Did Yeshua tell his servants to go kill God’s precious children?
If so where?
819 said:
“Are you Speaking of the Catholic Crusades?”
Protestantism, in all of its forms, sects and spinoffs, are nothing more than catholicism-lite. The doctrine of original sin is one of the many common denominators linking all of xianity to it’s mother church of rome.
Luke 19:27- “And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me.’”
History proves Jesus was taken at his word here.
819,
Your question has no substance. I did not claim that Jesus commanded his servants to kill. I would ask you to reread my comment.
Jim
Jim,
Do think for one second Hasatan is a dummy? Some he will test by enticing them to disbelieve. For those that do believe he tests by enticing them to far the other direction into idol worship, just like the golden calf.
Sorry man, some day you will have to admit history repeats itself and Hashem is in charge of it all.
819
the Torah was written for all generations and the golden calf in our time is Jesus.
Christians are the current “stiff neck peoples”.
What did God say to Abraham that his offspring would be like?
Fulfilled!!!!!
2000 years later (Yeshua) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Fact!!!!
God says about Israel?
Chabad: Yeshayahu- Isaiah – Chapter 10:22
For if your people Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, the remnant of them that shall return, shall wash away with righteousness the decreed destruction.
Interesting?
bible819
For some reason I just kept thinking about your avatar name even after I asked you what it meant and you said it was assigned to you when you joined the site. I had been thinking what book the 8:19 verse had come from, then it dawned on me I was thinking wrong. There is only one book in the entire Bible with more than 81 chapters. It had to be Psalms!!!
Here it is:
Psalms 81:9
“There must be no other god among you. You must not worship a foreign god.”
So NOW my question to you is; ‘Do you think this is from God or man or a wild coincidence?’
I like it!
Psalms 81: 9,10,11
9.Hearken, My people, and I shall admonish you, Israel, if you hearken to Me.
10.No strange god shall be within you, neither shall you prostrate yourself to a foreign god
11.I am the Lord, your God, Who brought you up from the land of Egypt; open your mouth wide, and I shall fill it.
..Kind of points to the 10 commandments.
There are much more descendants from Yishmael so your argument is fruitless. Furthermore, Yishmael is Actually an offspring of Avraham.
Sharbano,
Yishmael did not pass through either ring of blood; Abrahams circumcision and the Egyptian doorways.
Larry,
It would not necessarily need to take very long at all. People believed that Joseph Smith received the golden tablets, though they did not see them. And that did not take a particularly long time. Charismatic speakers from all over the world are drawing followers to themselves all the time, sometimes to political causes, sometimes religious. A thing that cannot be disproven holds credibility for a lot of people.
This is why so many miracles are done… over there. Or internally. Or even why people speak in ‘tongues of angels.’ These things cannot be verified to be true or false, leaving room for belief. This is why prophets and gurus of various stripes like vague prophecies, as well. They can be understood to have come true by virtue of their abstract and pliable nature.
This is certainly the nature of the prophecies that Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled. You can see this in the works of Dr. Brown. He downplays prophecies of a clear and definite nature, asking questions like: “But hold on a minute. Where does it say this is a Messianic prophecy?” He does this to minimize the strength of those prophecies that directly reference observable fulfillment like peace and the universal knowledge of God, or even a Jewish king reigning from Jerusalem. Then he tries to maximize the importance of questionable and unverifiable prophecies. So he defends Isaiah 7:14, which is not clearly messianic and could not be verified. He will go on about the atoning power of Jesus’ blood, but that is not an observable fact. It is a mere claim. He attempts to make molehills out of mountains and mountains out of divots.
And the reason why he and others can believe it is because it could not be checked. As I have written, the resurrection was not testable. This means that for some people, it would be a believable claim. They would mistakenly be able to maintain their belief as long as it was not disproven. And of course, it could not be. The disciples did not announce the resurrection until Jesus had been dead for nearly two months, according to Acts. Digging up a corpse would be useless, as it would be unrecognizable. Since the claim could not be checked, those who liked the message believed.
I do not believe that it spread as quickly as Acts would have us believe. It does not seem likely that thousands of Jews believed on Jesus on Pentecost. If so many Jews were amenable to the message, it would have taken a greater hold among the Jews. I note also that Acts tells us that the new believers were Jews only in Jerusalem for the festival. This makes the claim untestable. Although we might consider the unlikelihood that thousands of new believers went back to their homes abroad but made little impact until specific missionary bands came. And even then, those bands were rejected by the Jewish communities and accepted by the non-Jews who knew neither Torah nor Jesus. Even the NT testifies to the fact that those closest to the events (other than the disciples, of course) did not believe in Jesus. It was those far away, those who could not test the claims of Jesus that believed.
Even so, I do not think it had to take too long. Perhaps it was not the couple of months of Acts. But once word started going abroad, numbers grew quickly. Among those who could not test the claims, it was not too hard to find converts. Today, one of the fastest growing religions is Mormonism, and it is young. These things happen a lot faster than we realize.
Jim
“The real unfortunate thing which breaks my heart is by Jews rejecting the Greek scriptures’s interpretation of Tanakh they have set themselves up to accept a false Messiah. But God keeps His promises and a remnant will survive as before.”
So we will accept a false messiah by holding to the harmonious Jewish interpretation instead of pagan Greek patchwork interpretations. Okay. The possibility that pagan Greek interpretations have led many to a false messiah has not entered your mind?
Here’s the problem with your concept, outside the obvious absurdity that pagan Greek interpretations lead to the truth while consistent Jewish readings will lead to deception. In Judaism, there is no reward for “accepting” the messiah or punishment for rejecting the messiah. The concept of acceptance and rejection of the messianic figure is foreign to Tanakh. The Messiah is a person who accompanies a series of events. Universal knowledge of God, rebuilding of the temple and universal peace will not depend on “accepting the messiah”.The acceptance of who the messiah is will depend on those events taking place. Our acceptance of the messiah will be based on the fulfillment of those events that can be observed and experienced by every human being.
Conceptually speaking, Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common. To try to combine the two puts you into a theological no-mans land. So be Christian or be Jewish/Noachide. Anything else is to call both religions lies.
Eleazar,
You say there is no reward for believing one sent by Hashem?
“Hmmm…..I believe you don’t even stop to think about what you are saying.”
That’s called twisting someone’s words, CP. Never said anything about “believing one sent by Hashem”. Don’t put words in my mouth, please.
I said “accepting the messiah” in the sense of belief in and devotion to a human being (even one sent by Hashem) determining one’s eternal destiny, as Christianity teaches. You knew that. Or are you getting tired?
“WOW! Babylonian Talmud was written 25 years ago, I thought it was much older. A Jesuit priest you say? I thought it was a Rabbi. It was done at the request of the Pope? Okay that does it, I’m convinced! I’ll just wait for whoever brings world peace ; )”
Interesting. So you think the Babylonian Talmud teaches that Jesus is Moschiac Ben David, and that Jesus is also Moschiac Ben Joseph, and that those two (who are the same person) come thousands of years apart from each other? That is what the Talmud teaches? No, that is what Messianics have read into it for about 25 years.
Unbelievable. But I guess if the “Greek scriptures can say ‘Jesus is to God as Joseph was to Pharaoh'”, then the Talmud can say that Jesus is two messiahs from different tribes that come thousands of years apart from each other.
Have a nice evening.
If Israel rejected the Prophets who spoke God’s Word-What makes you think they would accept the Messiah?
What Prophet did they accept that spoke against them?
God Word spoken by the later Prophets was not accepted. Y/N
The Father is proclaimed all around the world because of Jesus. Fact!
FACT!!!
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is known world wide through the message of Yeshua.
Undeniable fact!
What other Rabbi brought monotheism to the entire world?
CP the person most similar to Jesus in this respect (or should I say disrespect) is Mohammed – what does that say? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Close, but not really. Mohammed brought the God of Abraham, Ishmael and Nebaioth. This line did not pass through the blood. They have a different covenant through the promise to Hagar IF one believes Mohammed can be traced to Ishmael which is doubtful even by their own scholars. This brings into doubt who their God really is. From reading the Quran it is pretty obvious it did not come from Hashem.
CP Ditto to the Christian Scriptures 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
At least the Muslims don’t worship Mohammed as God.
Jesus led billions of followers into idolatry and Jew hatred. Why is that a good thing?
Imagine if he had let well enough alone.
R’B,
As to the Christian scriptures in some regards I agree but separating the pagan from the truth requires a scalpel rather than a hatchet.
819,
What Prophet did Israel accept that spoke against them?
Moses.
Isaiah.
Jeremiah.
Ezekiel.
Hosea.
Micah. (Micah’s noteworthy, because it is mentioned in Jeremiah that Judah repented at his words and the destruction he promised did not come.) (Jeremiah 26:18-19).
Etc.
The reason we have their words is because they were preserved by the Jewish people.
The Jewish people were appointed by God to be His witnesses. They preserved His Torah and the words of His prophets. On the other hand, the words of the NT were preserved, not by the Jewish people, but by those with no knowledge of Torah and no authority from God.
Jim
It has been asserted that Jesus brought knowledge of God to the world. This claim is quite clearly false for reasons I have given elsewhere. But I would like to address a point that is neglected, that the god presented by the NT is not the loving God of Tanach. The NT, in teaching that God cannot forgive sin without human sacrifice, puts a wall between God and Man and draws people to Jesus rather than HaShem.
It is supposed to be a great act of mercy that he takes the blood of an innocent man on behalf of the guilty. Really, it is a maligning of God’s character. HaShem does not demand the death of the innocent. Logically, this would be a foreshortening of His arm, an attribution of weakness to Him. Lovers of Jesus often accuse those that say that God does not incarnate as a human being of claiming that God is limited, that He cannot do anything. However, this is exactly what the Lover of Jesus does when he denies that God can forgive without blood.
But one need not rely on logic in this matter. The words of Ezekiel tell of HaShem’s great kindness in forgiving those that return to Him:
“Now you, mortal, say to the house of Israel, Thus you have said: ‘Our transgressions and our sins weigh upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?’ Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked man turn from their ways and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin. Though I say to the righteous that they shall surely live, yet if they trust in their righteousness and commit iniquity, none of their righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right—if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live, they shall not die. None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live.” (Ez. 33:10-16).
The Lover of Jesus may respond to this passage with a question, not asked for knowledge but to imply an answer: How can a perfect God look upon sinful Man? He will say that surely God cannot just take one back; someone must pay the price. But Ezekiel answers them: “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just,’ when it is their own way that is not just” (33:17). It is the demand that someone innocent pay the price for the wicked that is unjust.
What is perhaps most troubling in the theology of the Lover of Jesus is that Jesus appears magnanimous while God is vengeful. While he imagines that God demands the blood of the innocent, he tells stories of Jesus forgiving people, easing their physical and psychical pain. Jesus is not bloodthirsty like the Christian portrays God. So, when a woman anoints Jesus’ feet, crying over them and drying them with her hair, Jesus claims to forgive her sin (Lk. 7:36-50). On another occasion, Jesus claims to forgive the sins of a paralytic (Mt. 9:2-8). The gospels portray a magnanimous Jesus relieving people of the burden of their sins, a power the NT denies God. In the latter instance, Jesus even heals the man just to prove that he has the power to forgive. So Jesus has a power that the NT denies to HaShem. But worse, this makes Jesus out as benevolent and God as vengeful.
This will be denied by the Lover of HaShem, of course. He will say that God sent Jesus because of His great love: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him many not perish but may have eternal life” (Jn. 3:16). But the tale told by the NT shows that Jesus’ love is much greater than God’s. It is Jesus who forgives. And it is Jesus who dies. God’s love might be great enough to send Jesus, but it is not great enough to forgive the repentant. This is clearly an inferior love to that Jesus shows. John has Jesus say: “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for his friends” (15:13). This sentiment is understandable to all people. But then, what is God’s love in comparison to this? He did not die but sent someone to die. God did not have to suffer the pain and terror that Jesus is supposed to have accepted upon himself. The emotion one attaches to Jesus is bound to be greater than the emotion he attaches to HaShem, if he believes that Jesus died for him, but God only sent someone to die. Jesus’ sacrifice is the obviously greater.
And yet the principle upon which the NT is built is false. HaShem does not demand the death of the righteous on behalf of the unrighteous. He is magnanimous and full of great kindness, readily forgiving those that turn to Him. His love is too great to be understood by the human mind. As in Ezekiel, one might feel the burden of his guilt upon his shoulders, pressing him down, weighing heavily on his mind. But HaShem forgives those who turn back to Him and repair the damage they have done.
The NT has misrepresented many passages in Tanach. One of the worst misrepresentation, however, is its misrepresentation of HaShem’s mercy. The NT has God pleased with a brutal murder, an act of injustice that is supposed to fulfill His will. It portrays Jesus on the other hand as magnanimously forgiving and willing to die. This false presentation has made Jesus an object of adoration greater than HaShem. He is supposed to have been more forgiving and more sacrificing. And while the NT will tell one that he should adore God, the emotional power of the story told makes God to be much more an object of terror. The lies of the NT drive people to Jesus and away from God, while claiming to do the opposite.
Jim
“819,
Your question has no substance. I did not claim that Jesus commanded his servants to kill. I would ask you to reread my comment.”
And yet, Jim, in Luke 19:27 Jesus’ parable says just that in its moral conclusion.
Eleazar,
When you come before the King-
as he has stated; your acceptance with be your call- Life or Death. Heaven or Hell.
He does not discriminate by skin color, race or gender. Because you can’t take it with you.
Your Soul will be judged by the Father and condemed if you don’t accept (God’s Salvation)- Yeshua.
The Jewish fleshly skin is no indicator on the (HEART).
Your flesh will die. No flesh goes to heaven. It doesn’t matter what race you are.
Your heart(SOUL) will get judged once it leaves your flesh.
Yeshua did not advocate for the destruction of the Jews.
But, if you don’t accept salvation, your soul will die. Everybody has a choice.
Do you find yourself worthy of life? Your deeds won’t be enough.
Yes, 819, I know elementary Christian theology better than you do. You know I was a charismatic pastor and Christian author, right? I notice you did not have a single verse of Torah in that little sermonette. As for the rest, it is common Christian mythology and made-up concepts found nowhere in scripture.
The problem is, your understanding of Judaism ( and every other religion) is that it is based on superficial apologetics, which are built on a foundation of fallacies and falsehoods. Do you really think you are the first person to tell a Jew ( or anyone else) “You are not saved by your works. You must believe in Jesus”? Do you think you are the only Christian who believes Jews ( and everyone else) are blind because “they don’t have the holy spirit” like you do?
So let’s start here:
You wrote: “Do you find yourself worthy of life? Your deeds won’t be enough.”
My answer- Funny you should ask such a question this week of all weeks. No, I am not worthy in my own estimation.I will die, just as you will. Maybe sooner, maybe later. My good deeds lead to well-being and peace in this life. Anything beyond that is not my decision to make. If I am “saved” ( which Judaism does not define the same as Christianity), I am saved by God’s grace. If God is graceful and forgiving, then what do I gain by defying His word in unlawfully worshiping a sinning, mortal man? Jesus died, remember? That is the very definition of mortal. You see, it is Christians who do not believe in true grace. Otherwise a human sacrifice would not be needed to take the place of God’s grace and forgiveness; something Christians do not believe God is capable of on His own.
Please bring the level of dialogue up if you want me to continue. Or at the very least, go learn what Judaism really teaches, and then come back with deeper arguments. Do not just allow yourself to be spoon-fed lies and fallacies by your leaders.
A lot to unpack-
Lets start with your first statement-
Your knowledge-
What did you believe that made you charismatic?
Irrelevant to the topic. Stay on topic or leave it be. I will not continue if you are only going to ignore the points and divert/deflect.
Eleazar,
Yeshua was BECAUSE of Gods over flowing grace and mercy. As Yeshua said; ‘ its not the healthy that need a physician but the sick’. The Shepards were trampling the grass and muddying the water while sick lost sheep wandered without a Shepard. God gave them a Shepard in Yeshua. Who has gone after the ten lost tribes of Israel? You?
You have once again:
1- Deflected/twisted the issue- this time from salvation and forgiveness of sin to something completely unrelated.
2- Subjectively defended Christianity/Jesus in spite of your insistence that you are here to listen and learn.
3- Quoted the New Testament, a book you do not even fully accept, as your rationale.
Pick a book; Tanakh or NT, and go with it. Both can’t be right, since they are conceptually diametrically opposed. Why halt ye between two opinions? If HaShem be God then follow Him, if Jesus then follow him. If Tanakh is scripture then accept it, if the NT then accept it. There is no way to give both equal weight. Eventually, one must lose in favor of the other.
God can either forgive or He can’t. God either extends grace of His own will or He needs an enabler- a middle man. We are either saved by grace or saved by a human sacrifice. Those are the two options on the table. To say that requiring and providing a human sacrifice was “an act of grace” is to deny that God was capable of forgiveness without that human sacrifice. God’s forgiveness is either sufficient or it isn’t. God’s word, Torah, is either sufficient or it isn’t.
Where are the ten lost tribes, CP? Did Jesus “find them” and bring them together? Look around.
Eleazar,
> I have told you from the beginning; I accept the NT where it agrees with The Tanakh. There is no need to ‘pick one or the other’.
> Human sacrifice is a easy strawman to knock down, that is why you contuinually pick it from the many views of why Yeshua came.
> The ten tribes are everywhere if you know what you are looking for. You don’t see them? Do you think 14 million are like the stars of the sky or the sands of the seashore? God told Abraham he would be the father of how many nations?
R’B,
I have a serious question concerning what you wrote here:
“God granted man control of all of creation (Genesis 1:28, Psalm 8:7). With the mastery of the earth placed in his hands, it is very easy for man to forget that he is a servant and fall into the illusion of thinking that he is master. By relinquishing control of the world once a week, the Jew reminds himself and testifies to all who care to hear, that we are not the masters, but rather, that we are all servants of the One Master.
Observance of the Sabbath gave the Jew an unambiguous and explicit perspective of reality. When the Jew encounters a rock, a plant an animal, a fellow human or an angel – the Sabbath tells the Jew – this form of existence is not your master – it is a creation of your God just as you are. While the populations around them were enslaved to the beliefs that they are subservient to forces of nature or to people who were born into a higher station in life – the Sabbath set the Jew free. The truth of the Sabbath gave the Jew the clarity to see through the intimidating posture of those who claimed to be the masters of men. The Sabbath reminded the Jew that there is but One Master, and that all are equally subservient to Him.”
> I whole heartily agree to a point, the point is on Sabbath Orthodox Jews don’t turn to God for direction on how to keep the Sabbath, they turn and submit to rules made by humans, therefore they do not submit to God but to men.
Do you see my point?
CP How did God decide to transmit His law to this generation? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
R’B,
It came through the written Torah. To me that is the final say. I think the Rabbi’s job to every generation isn’t to define it for others in an additional written down oral torah but help people apply the written Torah to their lives in this generation.
CP Do you accept that the Torah is meant to be observed as a community?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
R’B,
One cannot legislate morality. Individuals need in common a love of God and their fellow man.
To answer your question;
When individuals observe Torah, the community observes Torah. When the community observes Torah, certain individuals slack becoming a impediment to community observance. Therefore additional laws are developed to deal with the slacking individuals. Unfortunately these additional laws are not applied only to the slacking individual but to the entire community. Over time the multiplication of laws begins to shroud the reason for Torah was given.
This is why the message of Yeshua spread, he brought simplicity back to Torah observance through love of God and neighbor. Granted, the Gentiles in their ignorance took the message to far, but it did bring them closer to Hashem, closer than they ever could of hoped without this Jewish message.
The multiplication of laws in the oral Torah have become suffocating and a distraction.
For example, yesterday
>True story<
Yesterday being Sabbath, my animals still need to be fed. Normally on Sabbath I do not dress in my work clothes, but wear sweat pants and a pull over shirt. I woke with no alarm, pulled on my sweat pants and went outside to feed. The elastic had worn out in these pants so they kept falling down. I took a string I from one of the hay bales and wrapped it around my waist to keep my pants up. Instantly I remembered the 39 melachot and thought; 'how am I going to make this string work with out tiying a knot?' I thought about my other sweat pants in the house but didn't want to walk that far and figured it is much easier to tie the knot that walk to the house or keep pulling up my pants.
I have been praying about all of this and this is how God answers me? With falling down pants and the need to tie a knot?
CP You didn’t understand my question – Is the Sabbath something that is done on a man by man basis or is it a communal covenant with God? Its not a matter of who makes up the rules – its a matter of whose understanding is important – God gave His law so that humans can understand – so my question is whose understanding was He talking about yours? mine? or the community’s? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
R’B
When I stand before Hashem in the afterlife to be judged worthy of a reward, will I be answering for my self, or will you be with me, standing in for me when needed, or will I be judged with a larger community as a whole?
CP You will stand by yourself as will each one of us – but note – that when God wants to threaten the worst punishment he threatens you with being cut off from the community 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Since we cannot find where the Torah says L-rd Yeshua did evil for healing on the Sabbath, why would someone’s interpretation of the Sabbath Covenant find anyone evil for healing a person on the Sabbath?