Letter to SY about Messiah

1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources

The following essay was sent to a Messianic leader. He suggested that we exchange our respective views about the Messiah that was predicted by the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures. I sent him my point of view, but I never received any response from him. I do find it interesting that most of my correspondence with Messianics and Christians adhere to the same template. I write something based on Scripture, and the response I get is generally the same: silence. I wonder why?  

As we agreed – here is my presentation of the Messiah from the perspective of the Jewish Scriptures.

Genesis 49:10 tells us that the Messiah will have the nations gather to him.

Numbers 24:17-19 tells us that the Messiah will achieve military victory over Israel’s enemies.

Isaiah 11:1-12:6 Describes a leader imbued with a spirit of God, wisdom, understanding, council, strength, knowledge and fear of God. He will be a righteous…

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33 Responses to Letter to SY about Messiah

  1. Shema says:

    One of my favorite sayings is;
    “It’s the thing that happens before the thing that happens that causes the thing to happen”
    Tom Dorrance

    I am of the opinion the first thing happening here is a misguided view of prophecy. Prophecies are given to warn us or give us hope (Jeremiah 29:11). Prophecies are not given as a check list to be checked off by a council or individual determining if events are from God. Did the people of Noahs day need a checklist to recognize the flood? Did Abraham need a checklist to recognize the three visitors? Did the sons of Israel need a checklist to recognize Joseph was the second power in Egypt? Did Moses need a checklist to recognize the burning bush? Did the Hebrews in Egypt need a checklist to recognize Moses? Did Israel and Judah need a checklist to know they had been exiled? Did Ezra and Nehemiah need a checklist to know Cyrus had released them to return? Did the Sanhedrin need a checklist to know they were disbanded, the people dispersed and the Temple destroyed? Do we need a checklist today to see a restored commonwealth of Israel?

    Where does Scripture instruct us to compile checklists to judge His actions? Prophecy unfolds how God decides, not how we decide. Using checklists to predetermine manifest destiny is like ripping the map from your navigators’ hands, telling him; Thanks, but I’ve got it from here – now that I have the map you’re no longer needed.

    We don’t need a checklist for Messiah, when he comes, he’ll do his thing whether or not he has fulfilled anyones’ checklist – it won’t matter if people or councils figure he is sent from God or not. Jesus came and did his thing. Manifest destiny has recognized him to be the most influential Jew to ever live. His message has reached to the ends of the world, to the lost sheep of Israel who became as Gentiles, turning entire nations from paganism to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. These same nations now instrumental in the restoration of the commonwealth of Israel. These are facts which cannot be denied or refuted.

    Yet some desire to rob the lost sheep of Israel of their messiah. Even though Jesus didn’t fulfill everything on the “messiah checklist” how can anyone say he hasn’t been a messiah to them? Some Jewish circles speculate a proto messiah, a type of conditional messiah based on the spiritual condition of Israel, a speculation Christians take as fact, identifying him as Jesus. What matters is Jews and Christians both agree there is a fuller fulfillment of Messiah coming – we all agree on this. The argument is not over the coming Messiah (although it might be; christian interpretation relates the next messiah accepted by the Jews will turn out to be false, then rejected by the Jews – the spark igniting Jacobs trouble) the argument is if Jesus was indeed the conditional messiah in Jewish speculations. Manifest destiny answers a resounding yes.

    • Shema No one is giving God a check list – but we give humans check lists to see if these humans were sent by God. The check lists that we apply to these humans were given to us by God in His Torah – we don’t tell God how to do things we just try to listen to Him. And the Jesus that you believe in is only a recent player on the scene of world history. The Jesus that has been around for the past 2000 years and who has been so influential brought darkness to the souls of men – the influence of that Jesus poisoned the minds of men against the Jews

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Shema says:

        I don’t know of any Torah checklists to give humans to see if these humans were sent by God. The false prophet test, is one condition, rather than a list. I’m not saying we/you tell God how to do things but it’s we often misunderstand or formulate preconceived ideas about what God has told us, therefore expecting something different than God intends. Many of us just try to listen.

        It’s funny you should say; “And the Jesus that you believe in is only a recent player on the scene of world history.” I’ve recently been reading about Göbekli Tepe, a site dated about 10,000 years old and about the 400,000 year old Siberian Cave Discovery in 2008. We are all “recent player(s) on the scene of world history.

        It is the misappropriation of Jesus’ words that has been so influential bringing darkness to the souls of men – the influence poisoning the minds of men against the Jews.

        It has also resulted in poisoning the minds of many Jews against Jesus and those who follow his way of Torah teaching.

    • Armida Ainsworth says:

      Too many end-of the world prophesies in the NT that never came true. JC was supposed to return in that generation. Virgin birth? Trinity?? Eating blood and body of a god?
      1 John 2: 18
      1 Cor 7: 27 – 31
      1 Peter 4: 7

  2. Dina says:

    CP/10th Man/Shema,

    You must have missed my last two comments to you over on the page arguing against the endorsement of Itzhak Shapira, so for your convenience I am copying and pasting both of them here.

    Comment One:

    I will leave it to the readers to decide whether I effectively neutralized your points or not. I am satisfied that I offered compelling reasons why your points cannot be well taken.

    You did not answer my question. A simple yes or no will suffice. Did you ever post comments on this blog using a different screen name?

    Comment Two:
    Shema, you are not fooling anyone when you claim you are here to learn. You made the same claim as CP, and you made the same claim as 10th man, but it is clear to everyone else if not to you that are here to preach.

    Your modus operandi is to ignore hard evidence when it is presented, instead offering unsubstantiated arguments while accusing others of doing the same. I provided many examples of this tactic of yours when I communicated with you while you were CP and 10th man.

    After you made some blatantly anti-Semitic comments, Rabbi B. asked you to apologize or leave. You did neither. You refuse to apologize, yet you keep coming back pretending to be someone else. So, yes, as long as you keep doing that, I will keep exposing you. I will always recognize you no matter what name you use.

    You can be a mensch and apologize, or you can be a mensch and stay away. Right now, you are not acting like a mensch.

  3. Dina says:

    CP, aka 10th man, aka Shema, says we don’t need a checklist for the messiah, it’s going to be obvious, and in Jesus’s case it is obvious to everyone except us nefarious villains who “desire to rob the lost sheep of Israel of their messiah.”

    CP has demonstrated that he is not open to trying to listen and understand our position, but for the sake of you folks following the conversation, please realize that there are some hard facts Christians ignore when accusing us of rejecting Jesus for malicious reasons (as CP did just now: we want to rob the poor, lost sheep of Israel of their messiah).

    The first is that, yes, there is a checklist for identifying a false prophet. CP ignores the Scriptural evidence on Moses. Moses did not expect the Children of Israel to accept him at face value and he asked God what he should say when they want to, essentially, vet him. See Exodus chapters 3 and 4 for the details. In fact, God says Moses will not fully and completely be accepted until God Himself speaks to Moses to the ears of the entire nation, every last man, woman, and child of them, so that the people will then believe in him forever (Exodus 19:9).

    I explained to CP many times–he ignored the evidence each time–that the Torah sets up two tests to identify a false prophet and Jesus failed both tests. The first is Deuteronomy 13, when a prophet makes a sign that comes to pass but leads the people to worship idols unknown to our fathers. This describes Jesus, at least according to Christian scripture, which alleges that he gave signs that came to pass and performed miracles, yet he turned attention away from the Father and to himself: Jesus is the center of worship not only for Trinitarians but also for Unitarians.

    The second is Deuteronomy 18, which teaches that if a prophet gives a sign that doesn’t come to pass he is surely a false prophet. Jesus gave the sign of Jonah to the Pharisees, yet didn’t appear to them in resurrected form to prove that his sign came to pass (the sign must be obvious and not based on hearsay). He also predicted that he would come in the clouds and sweep away all his believers during the lifetime of his disciples–this clearly never happened.

    So Jesus is a false prophet.

    He is also a false messiah. Now here things get tricky, because Christians and Jews use the same word but mean completely two different things. To Christians, the messiah is a divine or semi-divine figure who suffers, dies, and rises to redeem all mankind from sin. To Jews, the messiah is a reigning king of the line of David in whose era a political and spiritual utopia is established (universal peace, universal knowledge of God, national resurgence of Torah observance, restoration of the Temple and the sacrificial system, ingathering of the exiles, return to the Land.).

    The Christian definition is, of course, anti-biblical. The Bible teaches that each man controls his own spiritual destiny; see Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33; the Bible further teaches that human sacrifice is unacceptable. We therefore reject the Christian definition of messiah. According to our traditional definition of the messiah, Jesus does not fit the bill in any way, shape, or form. Not only did he never reign as king (and is not a descendant of King David from his father’s side), after his death the very opposite of the promises of the messianic era occurred. The Temple was destroyed, the Jews were slaughtered, the survivors were taken into captivity and exiled and scattered. Worst of all, the ascendancy of Christianity ushered in an unbearably long and dark period for the Jews of nearly relentless persecution for nearly 2000 years.

    Thanks to Christianity, the body count of millions of Jews that accumulated over the past two millennia gives us no cause to celebrate Jesus. Yes, he surely was an influential Jew. But Jews felt his influence as a malevolent force for so much of Christian history. No messiah, he.

    • tony says:

      ” The Bible teaches that each man controls his own spiritual destiny; see Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33; the Bible further teaches that human sacrifice is unacceptable. ”

      i am not understanding what you mean by “controls his own spiritual destiny”

      does each human have god given ability to do good deeds and make it to heaven ?
      does the bible teach that the human being can make it to heaven by doing good deeds?
      i ask because missionaries say that only gods grace can take us to heaven and nothing a human does can take him to heaven. it appears to me that you seem to be saying that God himself has created ability in human being to make it to heaven through deeds.

      please explain.

      • Dina says:

        Yes, Tony, that is exactly what I am saying. It may be shocking if you’ve never heard this concept, but all you have to do is read the Hebrew Bible to see that the missionaries are teaching against it.

        Of course, the Hebrew Bible doesn’t use the term “get to Heaven” but having life. While traditional Jews believe in the afterlife, it is barely alluded to in the Hebrew Bible. But that is a whole different discussion!

        As for control over our actions, the Torah teaches us that we have the free will to choose to obey or disobey God and therefore the free will to choose life or death (Deuteronomy 30). The Torah teaches us that God will reward those who obey and punish those who disobey (Deuteronomy 11). There are no free lunches, but anyone can repent at any time if he chose wrongly, as Ezekiel explains in chapters 18 and 33. He teaches that if you turn away from your sins, they will be completely forgotten.

        And of course you don’t need me to tell you that God abhors human sacrifice.

        Please let me know if that answers your questions, and if you have further questions please don’t hesitate to ask!

  4. Dina says:

    CP/10th man/Shema says that both Jews and Christians agree on a fuller fulfillment of the messianic promises.

    We do not.

    Whereas Christians envision a time when Jesus will come on the clouds and sweep away his believers, leaving billions–including the Jewish people–to die horribly and see a time when the Jews will finally be shamed for their rejection of Jesus, Jews envision (via the prophets of the Hebrew Bible) a time when all of mankind will be united in the worship of the one true God of Israel and the people of Israel will finally be vindicated to the eyes of all the nations.

    Which vision is filled with love and grace?

    • LarryB says:

      Which religion threatened tortured murdered to gain converts? This guy mocks Judaism and is laughable. Oops he’s an enigma. It’s difficult to even read such trash.

  5. Dina says:

    One more thing…there is so much to unpack in that comment of CP’s…

    CP writes of the amazing influence of Jesus, turning pagan nations into nations who recognize the God of Israel. Yet what is true of Jesus in the West is also true of Mohammed in the East. And in fact, today Islam is the fastest growing religion.

    So do not be impressed by the numbers. God says he did not choose us because of our numbers, because we are the smallest of all the nations (Deuteronomy 7:7). Rather, our very small numbers prove the truth of our testimony.

    It is worth pointing out here, as I have pointed out numerous times, that God chose us to be His witnesses (Isaiah 43:10). You can be sure that if God chooses a witness, He will make sure the witness is reliable even if the witness is but a weak human subject to temptations and sinfulness (Psalms 78); if God promises that His spirit and words will never veer away from us and our offspring and our offspring’s offspring forever and ever then He is keeping His promise (Isaiah 59:21). God placed His words in Israel only and the nations don’t really get it (Psalms 147:19-20).

    Not only can gentiles not teach Jews the truth about God, because it is not their possession and they were not appointed to the task–but also they should have the humility to turn to God’s only appointed witness and ask those Jews who are loyal to God and His Torah to teach them about God.

  6. Shema says:

    R’ Blumenthal prefaced his blog with the following statement:

    “The following essay was sent to a Messianic leader. He suggested that we exchange our respective views about the Messiah that was predicted by the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures. I sent him my point of view, but I never received any response from him. I do find it interesting that most of my correspondence with Messianics and Christians adhere to the same template. I write something based on Scripture, and the response I get is generally the same: silence. I wonder why?”

    “I wonder why?” He asks. Could it be you have shown us the reason many choose not to respond? Look what happened when I responded; first a personal attack followed by false accusations, followed by attributing thoughts and words me to that I never said; for starters; “us nefarious villains”. I wish you would engage on substance rather than in character assassination.

    You bring up some good points worthy of discussion; ‘checklist vs simple prophet test’ ‘Egyptian captive Hebrews had a checklist for Moses???’ ‘Inability to separate Jesus followers from organized Christianity resulting misassignment of blame’ ‘misunderstood view of a Christian fringe doctrine (rapture)’ ‘ the reason for the rise of Islam’ ‘misconception of what a witness is’

    I would love to discuss the above and more. But due the obvious exhibition of intolerance for diverse opinions. Which btw is contrary to Talmudic example. I am disinclined to discuss further, rather choosing the advice given in the book of Proverbs.

    May you be blessed as you have blessed me.

    • Shema Check out my exchanges with Dalton Lifsey, with Gil Torres and to Blesch amongst others in which simple substance was exchanges resulting is silence from the Christian end. In your case – let me repaste your first post below The general rule on this blog is that people speak to you the language that you choose to speak – you spoke no substance – just stereotypical suspicions which have no basis in reality > > Not knowing all that is going on here I was simply aghast reading the > article above. It quickly becomes apparent this likely a > unsubstantiated emotional personal attack when the best evidence > offered for your alleged ineptitude is that ‘even youngsters, > beginners in Talmud think you’re a joke’. > This is my favorite part of the article: > After calling you inept, a imposter, and a deceiver of the innocent > the article encourages people to withdraw their support (wait for it) > “with tact and with sensitivity”! > > Itzhak Shapira, I see no need to threaten law suits, I believe it is > your own best interest for this article to stay posted as it is. > > I would like to add a personal opinion at this point; > This whole thing demonstrates the achilles’ heel of orthodoxy > (orthodoxy in the broadest sense of the term). Orthodoxy seems to > always espouse a pack mentality. If one in the pack exhibits different > behavior or has different thoughts than the pack, they are immediately > attacked until they are forced back in line or cast out of the pack. > There is nothing happing to you that didn’t happen to Jesus. It would > be to your credit if you are able to handle it as well as he did. >

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Shema says:

        Thank you for the names of the exchanges to look up, maybe some good reading!

        As for the post of mine you re-posted; you must note at no time ever did I personally attack anyone. It was a stern critique of the article itself and was addressed to Shapiro.

        Can we be honest? If I posted in the same manner as the one I was responding to……..???

        • Shema On what basis did you write about my Shapira article – > It quickly becomes apparent this likely a unsubstantiated emotional > personal attack ?

          1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Shema says:

            The basis is simple actually; I was reading the article knowing nothing about Shapira except a vague memory he might be a rabbi working for Jewish/Christian reconciliation, (I didn’t even know he was Messianic). It was obvious the author of the article was very unhappy with him. I kept reading trying to figure out what Shapira had done. There was nothing at all to indicate his grevious crime against Jews and Christians except an alleged accusation he was making money pretending to read Talmud? The ferocity of the attack didn’t match the evidence given. Therefore I felt compelled to come to the aid of someone being unfairly attacked.

            Later, after some research, I agree, even knowing nothing about Talmud, I could tell he was uneasy as he read it. The thing is; I think you are misunderstanding his exegesis technique is undoubtedly and purely Christian. The technique works like this; anytime the name Y’shua appears or any event resembling his life is read; it might have veiled or dual meaning.

            For some it goes even further, for instance; seeing the face of Jesus on a piece of toast. You may think it is absolute absurdity, but not everyone is at the same place mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Sometimes, seeing the face of Jesus on a piece of toast kept them from committing suicide that day or kept them from going back to drugs, or just reminded them they are loved by God and then took that love and shared it with someone who needed it. I worked with such people and I’ll put the love God has for them over my position on what is orthodox (within reason).

            I’ve been considering contacting him to ask about his reasons for changing the prayer, but I suspect I know the answer already.

            This is really just a result of a zealous heart for the things of God and His messiah. Shapira does have zeal for God and the Jewish people, his people. I’ve since watched a number of his videos, looked at his website. He may be a bit of a loose cannon, but he has heart, a lot of heart, he has love for God and love for people – I like that about him.

          • Shema I guess that lying and deceiving people is not a crime in your book. In that case, the article was not for you.

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Shema says:

            I am not as quick to judge as I once was. I give credit to the Spirit of God working in me through following the Torah teachings of Jesus. Peer as I may, the big picture of God and His workings is a mystery to me.

            For example; let’s take the horrible atrocities organized Christian churches committed against Jewish communities. On one hand it is inexcusable, on the other it may be the impetus preventing total assimilation for over 2000 years. Should I then persecute Jews to protect them from assimilation? That’s absurd, I follow the instructions of God concerning my fellow man and defend those being persecuted. But who am I to judge the big picture of God?

            I’m open to being wrong, but I don’t think Shapira is malicious. Rather I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt recognizing he may just be over zealous.

            I believe I have the God given freedom and instruction to extend grace before judgement.

          • Shema Is it wrong before God and man to deceive people? For example; If I claim expertise in a subject that I know nothing about and people believe me and pay me money and give their time in order to hear my “expert” opinion. Is this a Godly or unGodly act?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Shema says:

            What if a person honestly thinks they are of expert status in a particular area? What if they are a big fish in a little pond? Haven’t you ever thought you were better at something than you really were? I have, and have been humbled numerous times. Some people upon engaging in the area of their so called expertise around real experts quickly find they are not as expert as they first thought. Good people will realize their mistake, backup and double their effort to get better. Some will just quit. Some will continue in their self delusion, oblivious to the fact they’re making a fool out of themselves. These are the people we need to gently help. Granted it may eventually take more than a gentle hand, but that is where you always begin.

          • Shema How would someone “honestly” think that they are an expert in an area they know next to nothing about? What is “honest” about that?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Shema says:

            “The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid people are full of confidence.”
            Charles Bukowski

            The thing is Shapira may have done a stupid thing, but taking down his video shows he’s not stupid or delusional. In my opinion; your response should be one of appreciation for hearing your voice, not one of further finger pointing.

          • Shema He was told by his superiors to take it down – he would have never done it on his own. The fact that you keep on defending a person who goes around deceiving people speaks volumes about you.

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Shema says:

            “He was told by his superiors to take it down – he would have never done it on his own.”

            >Do you have hard evidence his superiors told him to take it down? Suppose you do, unless Shapira said he would of never taken it down on his own, we can only speculate.

            “The fact that you keep on defending a person who goes around deceiving people speaks volumes about you.”

            >That I don’t just jump on the ban wagon with everyone else, without having all the facts, hopefully does speak volumes about me.

            YPH, I would like to know the truth of the matter, and maybe in time I will have it. You have made up your mind. I don’t discount you may possess more information and your decision accurate. I’m not allowed to judge on hearsay or try to judge the motives of another mans heart.

            I think you miss the point of my original post concerning this matter. It was never whether you were wrong or right. But it was the perceived lack of grace extended.

            For example, (if it occurred) you could of corrected me by posting your first gentle response to Shapiras’ Talmud reading, pushing with one hand while pulling with the other. Then I would of stand humbly corrected.

            Proverbs 18;
            “17The first to state his case seems right, till the other one comes and cross-examines. …..19 It is harder to win an offended brother than a strong city; their fights are like the bars of a fortress.”

          • Dina says:

            Rabbi B., has it occurred to you that CP does not extend the same grace to you? He keeps chiding you for wrongdoing but not Shapira. Why has he picked one to shower his grace and the other to shower his self-righteous disapproval? Why has he not extended that same sort of grace to me? Perhaps I am generous and big-hearted too, and it’s only my overzealousness that causes me to use heated rhetoric?

            Here is an example of CP’s sweet grace and charity to me, from a while back, cut and pasted:

            The punishment for hiding a Jew was the death of yourself and the death of your extended family. I might be wrong, but something tells me you’d never hide a Christian.

            Dina repeatedly stereotypes and targets Christians as the source for Antisemitism as evidenced in her most recent above post. Considering her anti-Christian rhetoric, it is logically doubtful she would risk her life for a Christian the same way Christians have for Jews.

            I don’t have anything against Dina, [right!] but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t call out hate mongering when I see it.

            And he has the gall to accuse me of character assassination. No grace for anyone who doesn’t share his faith in Jesus, apparently.

            While I am dredging up his past sins, here are some biased and/or anti-Semitic statements from CP, for which he has yet to apologize.

            “Christians constantly talk about God, quote Scriptures to each other, have Bible studies and community outreach. The Jewish community, not so much…Jews have Mezuzahs and Tefillin and Christians can’t stop talking about God.”

            “Myself and every Christan I know is extremely tolerant of the unrepentant Jewish position of murdering Yeshua.

            But this is all besides the point because you still are unrepentant. You rail on historical Christian antisemitism one second then commend modern Christians for their repentance yet stand by the decision of our forefathers to hand a innocent man over to Roman authority to be executed. Even though this is just plain wrong, most modern Christians tolerate your unrepentant position, instead choosing forgiveness and reconciliation.

            As long as you continue to embrace and support the decision of 2000 year old religious leaders, whom you don’t even know, you will continue to look for ways to justify your position rather than confess and repent.

            Far as I’m concerned, anyone who thinks the Sanhedrin righteous for turning over a fellow Jew to be tortured and nailed on a cross to die for teaching a return to Torah and claiming to be Messiah should share in their judgement, however Yeshua’s interpretation of Torah teaches to forgive them and leave it to God to sort out.

            “didn’t even occur to you that Jews would find hurtful and shocking,”

            How is it an intelligent woman like yourself not see this? It is supposed to shocking! I’m showing you first hand exactly what your attitude and rhetoric produce from the outside world. You are the one creating anti-Semitism and then blaming the outside word for it. Can you say ‘reality check’.

            Need I say more?

          • Shema
            What makes you assume that “everyone else” just “jumped on the band wagon”? That’s unwarranted name calling right there. I know that you think you are full of “grace” but please don’t be surprised if others see you in a different light.
            Fact is – you assume that Orthodox Jews are working with a “pack mentality” when in fact (at least in this case) we have hard evidence to back up what we have said – and you have that evidence as well -its here on the blog
            But you could work with the pack mentality which tells you that Orthodox Jews “likely engage in unsubstantiated personal attacks” and just “jump on the band wagon”

          • Shema says:

            “What makes you assume that “everyone else” just “jumped on the band wagon”? That’s unwarranted name calling right there.”

            No it’s just a saying. People don’t jump on empty band wagons. I’m saying I don’t just jump on band wagons with a “rhetorical” everyone else.

            I’m not full of grace, it is a gift of God that I must work hard daily to employ.

            Doesn’t Torah instruct us to hear both sides before making a judgement? If this is true, why do you ask me to make a judgement only hearing one side?

          • Shema Yes, teh Torah says to hear both sides before making a judgment so on what basis do you write that my post is “likely an unsubstantiated personal attack”?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Shema says:

            Just judging the article on its own merit, because it offered no “substantial”evidence it seemed “likely an unsubstantiated personal attack”

            Just to be clear; that one particular article in isolation offered no substantial evidence (unsubstantiated) it was attacking a ‘person’ (personal attack). Therefore purely by definition…..

            I’ve admitted from the start that I didn’t have all the facts and there are two sides to every story. I’ve not condemned either side, only offered a stern critique of that one article taken by itself. Additionally I don’t think I ever offered any personal attack to the author.

            If I’m wrong I’d like to be able to admit it. Question: What does Torah say about admitting you are wrong when you don’t really think you’re wrong, just to bring peace?

          • Dina says:

            You offered a stern critique without bothering to investigate, automatically offering the benefit of the doubt to Shapira and none to the rabbi. Admitting you didn’t have all the facts is a step in the right direction, but you should also apologize to Rabbi B. for your self-righteous lecturing.

            But it’s me that’s saying it…

    • Dina says:

      My dear friends,

      A troubling pattern is emerging. In every comment Shema posts, he expresses his own subjective opinion, expecting us to just take his word for it. When I respond with hard evidence backed by solid Scripture, he takes the easy way out. He cannot respond to my devastating arguments. If he had the Scriptural evidence to refute them, he would have refuted them long ago, when I presented these arguments to him while he was CP and 10th man.

      It’s far easier to pretend that I have attacked his character and am intolerant (intolerant means I disagree with him and give him some rousing reasons why) than to respond to the challenges–all while engaging in character assassination of his own. Far easier to quibble over his subjective use of the word “checklist” than engage with the actual substance of my words.

      This is terrible for the simple reason that nothing more and nothing less than the fate of our souls lies in the balance. And to expect us to accept subjective opinion without hard evidence and solid Scriptural backing is foolish if not downright dangerous.

      Therefore, I will continue to fight back against subjective opinion with hard facts. There is no need for CP to talk to me. I will continue to talk to you, as God gives me the time and strength.

      • Shema says:

        I objectively pointed out there are no “checklists” for the acceptance any individual patriarch, judge, prophet, or king, (the test of a prophet is not a checklist, but rather one simple condition). I objectively asked where God instructs us to compile such checklists?

        I recieve a very subjective answer with no objective evidence countering my supposition. Rather I am the one dismissed on the grounds of being subjective?

        • dovid says:

          All the instances in which you bring where we see that characters in the Torah don’t need checklists (e.g. king, judge, burning bush, Joseph as second-in-command) are all people who ALREADY are clearly what they claim to be. Joseph was visibly the second-in-command, Moses was sure that he saw a burning bush etc. [The only exception among your examples brought was a prophet to which Dina has already responded to using Deut. 13, 18….]

          Clearly the world hasn’t entered the Messianic Age as described in the Prophets. So no one can claim to be the Messiah. The most one can do is claim that he WILL be the Messiah, perhaps in a Second Coming. Then a LOGICAL question is why to believe in him. The Torah doesn’t provide us with a checklist for such an individual (i.e. the individual who claims that he WILL be the Messiah) just like it doesn’t even tell us about such an individual in the first place. So again the question is WHY take his word for it over, say, Muhammad, Shabsai Tzvi or any other claimed messiah throughout history.

          The “checklist” that the author of this article is listing is about the final Messiah of whose credentials no one has yet to meet. So Jesus definitely cannot be called the FINAL messiah because he hasn’t fulfilled the credentials. As for being POTENTIAL FUTURE MESSIAH, let him get on line together with all the campaigners claiming to be the messiah throughout history.

          Although I havn’t read all the comments on this discussion, i think i got the overall picture. Let me know if i missed something and what you think.

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