1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources

Dear Gil

Let me clarify a basic contrast that seems to have escaped you.

On the one side you have the word of God – I refer here to the Jewish Scriptures which we both acknowledge as the words of the Living God. On the other hand you have the speculation of men. The fact that the speculation that these men engage in revolves around the words of God does not change the status of these theories – they remain speculation.

I will clarify.

We are discussing the worship of Jesus – a worship that you condone and one which I see as the greatest rebellion against God.

Wonder of wonders! We both point to the same Jewish Scriptures to support our respective positions!

The difference is that I am pointing to direct and explicit commandments from God while you are simply using Scripture as a springboard for your own speculations.

I pointed to the Sinai revelation. It was not me who decided that this passage is relevant to this discussion. The Author of Scripture made it abundantly clear that this event was His teaching on the subject of idolatry.

You pointed to the sacrifice of Isaac and the smiting of the firstborn. May I bring it to your attention that the Author of Scripture did NOT present these as a teaching on the subject of idolatry – it is YOU who decided that these narratives have a bearing on this discussion.

Furthermore – the Sinai revelation was a comprehensive teaching on the subject. The Author of Scripture Himself tied up all the loose ends. The doctrine He taught was simple, straightforward and complete – it was that we are to worship only the God who revealed Himself to our ancestors at Sinai as our ancestors preserved that revelation (Deuteronomy 4:9; Isaiah 43:10).

The theory that you are building out of the narratives in Genesis and Exodus are not spelled out in Scripture at all. These are your own speculations.

Do you not see the stark contrast between your own speculations and the explicit, direct and comprehensive word of God?

Furthermore – because my nation does not accept your fanciful speculations you then say that we “overlook” the sacrifice of Isaac?! Your condescending tone about Israel retelling the story as a “wonderful story of the dedication and devotion of Abraham” – as if this is the insignificant part of the story – the “sideshow” so to speak – speaks volumes. Perhaps you noticed that the Author of Scripture Himself calls our attention to this aspect of the story (Genesis 22:18).

Since you seem to be in the mood of some speculation about the role of the sacrifice of the firstborn let me share some of my own speculations on the subject.

Israel is God’s firstborn (Exodus 4:22; Jeremiah 31:8), His only one (2Samuel 7:23), that He loves (Deuteronomy 7:8) . Throughout our history we have been called upon to give up our lives in obedience to God’s voice that commands us to refrain from worshipping idols. Isaac’s sacrifice served as the model and the inspiration for tens of thousands of subsequent sacrifices of God’s firstborn. The inspiration generated by these sacrifices continues to illuminate the world in the very same way that Isaac’s sacrifice illuminated and brought blessing: By testifying that God alone is sovereign over every facet of existence.

When it comes to my remarks about the alleged resurrection of Jesus you chose to ignore my main point and instead you addressed the comments that I put in parenthesis.

To remind you – my main point was that the distinction that you made between the resurrection and other miracles (that it was unaided) – is a distinction that has no basis in Scripture. Scripture uses the broad brush “sign or wonder” to teach that no miracle can move us from the path God set us on when He took us out of Egypt. Yet you come with your own speculation and create a distinction and then you preach to me that I am “entirely on my own”. Gil, it is you who stand on your own against the plain word of God.

(I disagree with your arguments concerning my parenthetical statement but I fear that if I spell it out you will limit your response to this peripheral part of our argument and continue to avoid the main issue.)

I will go back now to your opening comments

You say that you are not given to the back and forth of “he is” “he is not”. If you noticed that has not been the style of our discussion. Yes, we both have misunderstood each other at times as is expected amongst people from such different world-views – but all in all our discussions have not been a matter of each of us attempting to state their opinion more emphatically but rather each of us attempting to bring more light, clarity and articulation to the basis of our beliefs.

You seem to be disappointed that you cannot bring the Christian Scriptures to support your position. This sentiment perhaps goes to the root of our differences. According to your own standard (that a claim for prophecy be measured in light of previous revelation) what you should have done is that you should have studied the Jewish Scriptures and the Jewish Scriptures alone, absorbed its spirit and allowed yourself to become saturated with its teachings – you should have developed a complete world-view on that basis and then and only then evaluate the claims of Christianity in that light. Do you not agree that this would be the proper approach?

If this would have been your approach – then you should be able to demonstrate from the Jewish Scriptures why it is that you accept the claims of Christianity.

Peace and light

Yisroel

If you found this article helpful please consider making a donation to Judaism Resources by clicking on the link below.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=FEAQ55Y7MR3E6

Judaism Resources is a recognized 501(c) 3 public charity and your donation is tax exempt.

Thank You

Yisroel C. Blumenthal

Dear Gil

Thanks again for your willingness to engage in this discussion.

I would however appreciate it if you would directly address the issues that stand between us.

In the context of what we are discussing it is almost frivolous to discuss matters that do not bear on the central issue. I hope to address your errors about prophecy and sin only so that you don’t take my silence as agreement – but first I’d rather clear up the main issue.

We are discussing idolatry. You seem to be under the impression that I am opposed to the concept of the incarnation because it might LEAD TO idolatry.

No! That is not what disturbs me about the incarnation claim at all.

The incarnation claim IS idolatry. Claiming that a man is somehow divine and thus worthy of worship is idolatry itself.

You state that you have no desire to “compel” people to worship Jesus – “Suffice” it that they worship the Father “This pleases the son” – you say. You do however condone worship of the son. You consider worship of the Father “sufficient” – and you swallow it because it pleases the object of your adoration – namely “the son”.

This is idolatry.

In response to this charge you presented several statements

1) That if man could become like God than God reciprocated with the “counter reality of becoming like man”

2)  Then you argue that if God could create man in His image why would He despise the qualities of man.

3) You state “While we know the concept is not an impossibility.”

There are two different tracks that I could utilize to demonstrate your error. I could demonstrate to you why saying that God “became man” is as impossible as saying that a square is a circle, that sin is righteousness, that up is down and that cruelty is kindness. In the context of worship; God and man are more contradictory than any of these. (In other words the concept IS an impossibility.)

But I will not choose that track now (I have written extensively on this subject on my blog). Instead I will approach the issue from the angle of Scripture.

The purpose of the Sinai revelation was to teach us who to worship and who not to worship (Deuteronomy 4:15). This is explicitly declared in Scripture.

So how can you condone a worship other than the one our ancestors were taught at Sinai? Is this not the most direct violation of the covenant that was sealed with the Jewish people at Sinai?

And on what basis do you want to condone this worship? On the basis of your own imaginative piecing together of some Scriptural concepts (none of which are introduced by the Author of Scripture as teachings on worship). How could you pit your own speculations against the explicit word of God?

Note: God did not say that He will become like man – it is you who decided to read that idea into Scripture. Note: When Scripture says that man has become like God it is not giving legitimacy to worship of man (– I hope you agree), so this whole comparison of God to man or vice versa is completely unrelated to worship – for you to decide that these concepts have a bearing on the matter of worship is again – your speculation.

I read your comments to Annelise on your blog explaining your position.  Your argument about Jesus not being a prophet because he never claimed to be one – then using this as a loophole to thus bypass the duty of Israel to apply the Scriptural criterion for a prophet to his claims – is fallacious for several reasons. I will state one here.

The point of Deuteronomy 13:2 is not that when someone wants the specific title “prophet” then we are instructed to apply certain criteria to him or her. If that were the case then your argument that Jesus said (or implied over a long period of time): Aha! I am not claiming to be a prophet so Deuteronomy 13 doesn’t apply to me! – would perhaps be something to talk about. But you seem to have missed the point about Deuteronomy 13. It is not about the title “prophet”. It is about loving God. The point of the passage is that no miracle no matter how spectacular can move that love. God set us on a path at Sinai – and no miracle should budge us from that path. This is the point of Deuteronomy 13 and it is a directive to reject anyone who would condone worship of one that we did not encounter at Sinai.

Your argument that since the resurrection of Jesus was performed by Jesus himself so this sets it apart from any other miracle – is without Scriptural foundation. Deuteronomy 13 does not qualify the miracle that we are to disregard. It is your own reasoning that produced this distinction. The human mind is agile enough to produce such distinctions for any miracle – rendering the commandment meaningless.

(This aside from the fact that the argument itself is meaningless – if a false prophet can pull off the resurrection of someone other than himself so who said that Jesus wasn’t working with someone else who resurrected him? Furthermore; Matthew throws in a whole bunch of unaided resurrections at the time of Jesus’ death – were they all gods?)

The criteria that you are willing to apply to Jesus and Paul is that their message be aligned with the message of previous prophets. The mere fact that their message condones worship of a man tells us that their message does not align with the heart and core of the Jewish Scriptures – so they would have to be discounted even according to your own standard.

Even putting the issue of worship aside – their message conflicts with so much of Scripture – so even if you don’t understand how Jesus’ message contravenes the first two of the Ten Commandments – but don’t you see how it contravenes the general message of Scripture on the issues of atonement, observance of the Law and on the issue of the Messianic era?

In closing – I will again respectfully request that you stick to the central issue – idolatry. Again, to reiterate. God Himself taught our nation who it is that we are to worship and who it is that we are not to worship. This was done clearly and openly. This is by definition the core of our covenantal relationship with God. How then can you expect us to consider a teaching which condones a worship that God Himself instructed us to avoid?

Peace

Yisroel

If you found this article helpful please consider making a donation to Judaism Resources by clicking on the link below.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=FEAQ55Y7MR3E6

Judaism Resources is a recognized 501(c) 3 public charity and your donation is tax exempt.

Thank You

Yisroel C. Blumenthal

Dear Gil

Thanks again for moving this discussion forward keeping  the focus on the issues.

1) Resurrection and Covenant

Your comments about the resurrections done through  Elijah and Ezekiel entirely missed the mark. Do you think that I don’t believe  in God’s ability to resurrect the dead? What did I say that would give you that  impression?

What I did pointo, and which you completely ignored (in keeping  with 2000 years of Church history), is the COMMANDMENT of God as articulated in  Deuteronomy 13:2-6 (1-5). It is that Scriptural text that commands us to  disregard resurrections, miracle healings, stopping the sun in the sky, and all  other miracles if they are being used to justify a redirection of our worship as  Christianity demands for Jesus.

It was in that context that I stated that a resurrection  is utterly meaningless – and I ask you – do you not agree? Do you believe that a resurrection (or any miracle) could justify a redirection of our worship? Do you have a  different interpretation of the passage in Deuteronomy?

Did I read you right? Were you stating (or implying)  that Israel’s covenantal relationship with God is defined by belief in a  resurrection or lack thereof? Wouldn’t you say that the prohibition against  idolatry is much more central to the relationship than is belief in the  resurrection?

In a certain sense I get the feeling that you view  idolatry as some technical legality which happens to be prohibited and you don’t  see it for the act of spiritual adultery that it is. Do you not agree that  worshiping anyone other than the God who we stand with in covenantal  relationship is the deepest violation of that relationship?

2) Bush, Serpent and lessons to be learned

The fact that you keep on bringing up the bronze serpent  tells me that you believe that it is somehow relevant to this  discussion.

It is not.

It could be compared to a woman who sees her husband  driving is another man’s car and attempts to use this as a justification to  commit adultery with that person.

I realize that perhaps you don’t consider worshiping  Jesus an act of idolatry – but then this is what you should be trying to  articulate – why it is that you believe that worship of Jesus is not idolatry  instead of harping on the Bronze Serpent again and again.

As for your question – what is the lesson to be learned  from the Serpent. I will respond – but before I do so let me point something out – Scripture does not clearly and explicitly tell us in a direct way what the  lesson is – all we could do is try to figure it out in the spirit of Scripture  as we have absorbed it.

The lesson is this (according to my understanding): The  people were being bitten by serpents. The human tendency is to focus on the  immediate problem and not see the hand of God behind the problem (as per Isaiah  10:5). God had the solution to their problem come about through the same medium  through which He delivered their problem – namely a serpent. They were healed by  looking at (note: not worshipping) a serpent. The message is that it is not the  serpent that brings death nor is it the serpent that brings life – these are but  agents in God’s hand to be used as He pleases for either life or death. When we  turn from God and from His holy law we find death and when we turn to God and to  His commandments God gives us life – that is the lesson.

3) Prophecy, Moses and Numbers 12

You argue that I set a standard for prophecy (that the prophet  be kind and honest) – you argue that it is non-Scriptural and you refer me to  Numbers 12. Numbers 12 makes a point about Moses’ humility – do you think that  it is coincidental that the most humble person was also the greatest  prophet?

The reason I make no reference to Numbers 12 in the  context of identifying a false prophet is because it is not stated as a  commandment – Deuteronomy 13 and 18 are. (It seems to me that you don’t  appreciate the significance of God’s explicit command – perhaps you would care  to explain your position on this).

Abraham would not have failed according to my standards  and he was not dishonest – in any case, my standard of kindness and honesty was  not to demand of the prophet that he or she never sin. But if someone who is  clearly wicked (such as in unkind or dishonest – even according to human  standards) – we could be sure that such a person is not a prophet. I don’t need  Scripture to support such an obvious point – but if you insist I will point you  to Isaiah 59:2 where it is stated that our sins stand between us and God – someone who is saturated with sin will not be someone who enjoys the connection  to God inherent in prophecy (I understand that there may be some exceptions to the  rule; such as with Balaam).

Your statement that Jesus was a prophet like Moses is  contrary to Scripture. Moses was the greatest prophet because of the credibility  that God granted to his mission (Exodus 19:9; Deuteronomy 34:10-12). Numbers 12  teaches about what was going on behind the scenes. Unless God explicitly teaches  us what is happening between Him and any given prophet – we can never know what  is going on in that private realm. This is not the measuring stick that God  granted us through which we can evaluate the level of a given  prophet.

4) Covenantal Responsibility

Do you not see how the claims of the Church concerning  the alleged deity of Jesus as viewed from the position of the Jew represent the  deepest violation of our covenantal relationship that we share with God? Can you  please address this critical issue?

Peace

Yisroel

(P.S. It may please you to know that I’ve read most of  the articles on your blog.)

If you found this article helpful please consider making a donation to Judaism Resources by clicking on the link below.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=FEAQ55Y7MR3E6

Judaism Resources is a recognized 501(c) 3 public charity and your donation is tax exempt.

Thank You

Yisroel C. Blumenthal