Birthday of the Sun
The fact that the most prominent holiday in the Christian yearly cycle is pagan in origin is relatively well known. Some Christian leaders argue for an abandonment of this pagan celebration while most observe this holiday and use the time as an opportunity to call attention to the message of Christianity.
Many churchmen justify the adoption of a pagan holiday with the argument that this was simply a historical circumstance. The expanding Church found that so many people were already celebrating this time, so instead of attempting to repress this celebration, the Church converted it from paganism to Christianity. The “conversion” of the holiday was achieved by artificially associating the Christian message with the observance of the holiday. This merger turned the commemoration of the birthday of the sun into a celebration that commemorates the birthday of the “son”.
Are these two celebrations really so different? If we look into the heart of the pagan celebration and worship we will see that no conversion was achieved. The Christian celebration is essentially just as idolatrous as the pagan celebration. The only change that was achieved was that the attention given to one idol is now turned to another.
The pagans chose their deities in the following manner. People would be inspired and overawed by various entities in the natural world. Be it the power and radiance of the sun, the mighty sound of thunder, the majestic beauty of a river or the magical appeal of the dark forces of the night. Instead of recognizing that these are but creations of the same Creator who granted us all the gift of existence the pagan would bend in submission towards the mysterious awe and majesty projected by these entities.
The heart of Christianity, in all of its manifestations, is the submission towards the aura projected by a certain human being. No one saw this person create the world and no one saw this person standing as a second person in a triune godhead. These were theories developed by hearts that were already bent in submission to the aura associated with the personality of Jesus.
The worshippers of the sun and the worshippers of the “son” are both engaged in the same type of worship. They are both allowing themselves to be overwhelmed by the attributes inherent in a fellow citizen of this universe.
The witness of the Jew is that everything in this universe and all of the majesty, beauty, mystery, charisma and holiness that these entities may possess are all but gifts from the One Creator who stands above and beyond all of nature while at the same time sustaining and nurturing every detail of existence. It is to Him, and to Him alone, that our worship is due. Not only our own worship, but even those entities that overwhelm men with their majesty, beauty, holiness and mystery, they too, owe all worship to the One Creator.
The day will yet come when everyone and everything rejoices in the worship of the Creator (Psalm 98:7). May it happen soon and in our days.
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
This is a really valuable post. While Christians may believe very much in a creator who is not part of nature, and believe that this wasn’t compromised by the incarnation, what is written here helps to show the damage that is caused (from a Jewish perspective) if Christians are accidentally worshipping the aura of a human being as described in the gospels.
It’s worth pointing out that there’s a brand of syncretism that aims to take the paganism out of European spiritual heritage. From a biblical perspective it seems very, very suspect, and even many Messianic Christians (Jewish and gentile), who don’t celebrate Christmas but definitely do celebrate the idea of the incarnation, are rightly turned off by it. On the other hand, there is an element in the Bible also of speaking with common ancient imagery and adapting or subverting it to be expressive of Israel’s worship (Augustine called such a thing ‘plundering the Egyptians). So this is what a lot of Christians have done, whether from changing a distinctly pagan holiday into a Christian one or from letting their love of Classical and Germanic mythology shed light on the Christian Bible.
What I’ve read of it is prominent from the university setting in England: influenced in this generation by writers like C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien, but having a long heritage beyond them. Lewis spoke of the idea of ‘baptising’ elements of one’s original culture, sparks of human creativity that have been perverted for paganism but should be restored to God, since all truth is His truth and all beauty is His beauty, etc. This is a very sincere and often careful attempt to hold to core monotheism and abhorrence of idolatry while allowing the breadth of cultural creativity in Europe’s heritage to find a positive purpose. An early example of this is the Dream of the Rood, a poem written in Old English which used Germanic concepts of spirituality and heroism to piece together a very Christian message. When I was in Christianity I appreciated and admired some of this work, valuing the Christian love for God and the way it was protected while experimenting with a form of ‘hollow’ (i.e. non-dangerous, but culturally illuminating) syncretism. And I could accept that certain holidays were in our time, despite their origins very much the property of Christianity.
It should be said that there’s a danger in this, because human creativity and imagination are such that the form and the substance of symbolism are very hard to disentangle. The ability to have admiration for the work of people who were spiritually corrupt in some areas also leads us sometimes to excuse them of things that we’d never tolerate from those whom we don’t admire. But it is only from a place of now believing we can’t accept the incarnation claim whatsoever that I can properly recognise the whole exercise as awful and totally alien to the Jewish scriptures and ongoing testimony.
All of this seems irrelevant to the followers of Jesus I mentioned who are more sensitive to non-Jewish spiritual symbols and continue in their Christianity (whether or not they call it so) while trying to be authentically Jewish. But even though the discussion continues, I believe that for these readers also, there is an important message in this blog article about how horrible and how destructive it would be to get it wrong about the light that is seen ‘in Jesus’. God responds to us in kindness wherever we are, even if we’ve been caught in a misunderstanding and are holding onto it firmly out of what we think is ‘loyalty’ to Him alone. But a starting point for conversation is the recognition that to attribute to any mere human the things that Christians attribute to Jesus would be sickening. (Christians know that.) And further, the recognition that the first people to worship Jesus, AS their creator and as one who wasn’t just as human as he seemed, faced the massive issue of idolatry if they were wrong. So it is vital for us to ask what test they employed to be 100% sure (worship of an incarnation isn’t a matter of ‘faith’ like belief in and relationship with God can be), and whether or not that was a test that they were given from the Torah. In any case, nothing that belongs to God alone can be given to someone if you aren’t sure whether they deserve it… but a claim like the one about Jesus must be questioned thoroughly before it were accepted.
That is to say, in the last paragraph: what test did the Torah give to Israel to distinguish between new revelations that would be idolatrous if false? If a claim like this is made about a human, did God even address in Torah how the people should respond to it? If not, it’s a huge problem. But if so, what principles from Torah are applicable to test the claim that any human or thing we see in front of us ‘is (personally) God incarnate’?
The test is restricting belief in God to “the God of your fathers” and not to worship gods that were not known by the fathers of the Jewish people (Deuteronomy 13:7-12).. Understanding of God has been transmitted from father to son. Even today, the messianics realize they’ve got a “god of the peoples round about, a new god that their fathers have not known.” They actually caution their missionizers to take that part slowly and start off with the title of “messiah” so potential Jewish converts don’t get slammed in the face by being instructed to believe in a new god.
Some might say that the “son” (“Yeshua”) was “Jewish” and not pagan, but “pagans” distorted his teachings & made him into the “pagan Jesus”. Might it have been that the “pagan Christians” seen very little difference between the “son” and the “sun”? Otherwise, why select “Yeshua” to worship instead of Moses, King David, or Elijah or Rabbi Hillel? I just noticed & wondered, does the “o” of the “son” make “sun” worshippers “completed”?
Regarding the last sentence… both ‘son’ and ‘sun’ come into English through the Germanic languages, but in different dialects and languages the O and the U are so similar that they can be swapped around. ‘Sun’ has been spelt with an O, and ‘son’ has been spelt with a U, and in some dialects the two can be spelt the same way at the same time while having different meanings.
I don’t think we can trace to any common root, though, or any linked meaning originally. It seems like the word for ‘sun’ is linked to brightness or fire in some sense. Anyway, an issue is that for a long time poetic ways of thinking have forced a link between the two in the context of ‘son of God’ imagery, even borrowing from the Hebrew idea of the sun of righteousness in Malachi. There is no inherent meaning-link between this and the idea of a son, because in Hebrew the words for sun and son are quite different. But because Christianity accepts the overall concept, the wordplay is allowed and the two ideas become a bit more resonantly linked in the imagination.
Btw I don’t think it’s deceptive or wrong to make poetic (rather than literal) links between things for the sake of illustrating another idea more clearly. But it can only be in the context of truth, because it can be emotionally persuasive… and when outside the framework of things that can be demonstrated as true, that persuasion is dangerous and confusing.
I quess my sarcastic wordplay or use of a pun was either too subtle or not all that clever. Obviously words in English (such as, sun or son) may bear little resemblance to words for those same objects or ideas in Hebrew or Greek. But that was partly my point. A large number of Christian “proof-texts” (in English AND also in NT Greek) rely on mis-translations of the Hebrew or they require taking the select verse or verses (or portion of a verse) out of context. So I agree with the argument about “poetic links”, “But it can only be in the context of truth, because it can be emotionally persuasive… and when outside the framework of things that can be demonstrated as true, that persuasion is dangerous and confusing.”
So many people hold to a theology that is built largely on rather “shaky ground”. For example, they might use the words “kiss the son” in Psalms 2:12 as a “proof”, a “truth”, even though that requires a single Hebrew word being read as an Aramaic word and then taking that corrupted sentence out of context with the rest of the Psalm. Or taking out of context and isolating the last rhetorical question in verse 4 (about the “son’s name”) from the rest of Proverbs 30. This is not out of ignorance, but out of a more dangerous method of persuasion and perhaps a self-validating or even a sinister motive. Let the one making those arguments continue to read Prov 30, especially verse 6 and the last part of verse 9. They play a dangerous game and call their prejudicial reading, “revelation”, when instead it often seems as “revolution”. In Hebrew, Psalm 110:1 is very clear and rational and saying something quite different from what the NT author (or even Jesus) mis-translates & misinterprets it as. Those who want to confuse, use one word where two are written; in English much is made out of the single sound of the word and then to confuse us more they write “lord” and “Lord” as “Lord” and “LORD”. Magical capitalization to say something that was inconceivable to the original author & audience. The new interpreters want you to get their “picture” and NOT that of the original Psalmist.
Malachi 4 (part of Malachi 3 in the Jewish Bible) is separated out for some reason, perhaps for some theological motive and persuasive value. You can read it in the (literal and poetic) context of the original author. Or, you can read in some different “later day” version, similar to that of the ancient pagan worldview. One of the familiar symbols of deity in Egyptian & Mesopotamian religion is that of the “winged solar disk” or “sun of righteousness” (somehow like a “son”?). Although God is not seen by many scholars as being described here as a “winged disk”, what they believe is implied is that God will “rise” on the “day of the Lord” (assuming or giving Malachi a “Christian” worldview; similar to the ‘rising’ god or “dying & rising” god-man of the pagan myth of the winter solstice). More in context with the rest of Malachi and with the other symbols of “fire and burning”, a more literal interpretation is a “sun of victory” or a “sun of vindication”, which is a poetic way of saying that Judea & Jerusalem will be victorious against the “nations” and will be both vindicated and restored in such a way that it will be as obvious and undeniable to those other nations as the bright light of the rising sun. It is not God (or heavenly agent) who will “rise” nor is God the one to be vindicated or to be finally considered righteous. There is no “son” here, not even Judea or Israel, since all people are his “son” or “daughter”. If the sun and son symbols are too similar from one’s perspective, one must read a little deeper and a little less prejudiciously. One must step back from the crowd mired in old myths where the sun was a god, like Israel stepped out (or back from) Egypt and away from the Canaanite world-view. There was only One God, undivided, and all else (sun & son) was either created by God OR by Man (gods, sun-gods, sons & daughters of god, man-gods and goddesses, and “god heads”).
Yedidiah… I should have been clearer… I wasn’t disagreeing with you about that thought, but it was interesting to me so I used it to say some other things that were on my mind. Kind of jumping to a similar thought rather than responding directly to yours!
Today, to me the holy night is as holy as the holy cow. 🙂
Around Easter 2004 we visited an old friend of my wife’s in Geneva who is married to an Italian Diplomat. During a Conversation he said; “Mithras was born on the 25th December”. Thus I went in the internet and did some research on it. From that moment on I knew that “my Jesus” was a pagan sun divinity. When the name doesn’t fit nor the birthday, I know that I have two different individuals. Yeshua according to Luke Chapter two (end) was born on Pessach. So, what do Yeshua and Christ have in common?
Yedidah wrote: (gods, sun-gods, sons & daughters of god, man-gods and goddesses, and “god heads”) – you forgot semi-gods, tri-une dogs (no mistake – think of Cerberus! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus) and other gods. I am so happy that ELOHEYNU is echad only!
On the first day ELOHIM spoke; “Let there be light!” And there was light! On the fourth day, He had “forgotten” that there was light already and He created the sun e. g. Hmmm, this makes me think! Creationists pretend that each day of creation had last 24 hours. Now – how long were the first three creation days before the sun was created?
There is no evidence that Pesach was the “birthday of Jesus or Yeshua”. Nor is there any evidence and no support for Rosh haShanah being his birthday, as other modern day revisionists believe. Those are modern myths that were created or hypotheses proposed to counter the negative aspects of Christmas & Epiphany. If his birthday had been Pesach, we would be celebrating a birth and death and rebirth as one long Easter holiday & it would be likewise paganized. After all, the Spring equinox is the “true” birth of the Sun and the sun gods. It is the time of the fertility gods and the related fertility rituals. It is the evidence of the sun’s power, the “good new birth” of nature or the “gospel” of the gods.
Hi all, I wrote this in response and in rebuttal to “Birthday of the Sun” posted on the Christian bashing blog: 1000 verses, Judaism Vs. Christianity.
I’ll call it:
“Abram, the Pagan Patriarch of Godly and Holy Devotion”
I think it’s always good to engage in self-examination both for the Christian and the Jew. It’s good to be self-critical, to examine where we are and how we got here.
Judaism’s mistaken argument against Christianity is that it is paganism (a divided heart for God) because the Christian is obedient to God concerning His Son. And in the mind of the legalistic Jew, the pagan Christian either serves multiple imaginary gods or mistakenly worships a man as if he were God.
Christianity’s main argument against Judaism is that it is legalism (which is the root of paganism by the way); it replaces God with ritual and ultimately rejects God and God’s command (the Jew in the mind of the Christian is all ritual and no heart for God). The legalistic Jew mistakenly thinks the way to God is through close observance and obedience to rituals. But as was the case with Cain, God examines the heart first and the ritual is merely a secondary confirmation. God had no regard for Cain because the ritual offering from Cain lacked a heart for God, which was the heart of Able, and which Cain envied in Able and murdered him for it. God has no regard for the legalistic Jew just as he had no regard for legalistic Cain. The legalistic Jew places the outward act of obedience to God to be of paramount importance, while his heart is far from God. To the legalistic Jew I say: don’t envy your Christian brother as did Cain envy Able; change your heart and you’ll be right with God.
In addition, the legalistic Jew selects only those commands and ordinances of God which fulfill his own legalistic view of proper religion, while rejecting God’s most important requirements of the heart.
The Christian practice of replacing pagan activities, observances, and rituals with godly activities was first employed by God himself in regards to Abraham. The church (especially the Roman Church) has historically sought to destroy pagan practices throughout the world and especially here in the Americas where I live, and replace those pagan practices, observances and/or rituals with godly equivalents. For example pagan shrines were destroyed and in its place, replaced with Catholic churches. I’m not saying I agree with the practice of forced and replacement religion, I’m just saying their misguided implementation of the practice of replacement has godly roots.
As stated above, the practice is rooted in God himself. God chose Abram, a pagan, from a family of pagans who engaged in paganism and he turned him into a man of God. Pagan locations of rituals and customs included high places and child sacrifice. God brought Abraham to a “high place” for the stated purpose of requiring a “child sacrifice.” At the moment of truth God provided a substitution.
Thus God took a pagan practice of going to a high place for a pagan ritual and turned it into a Godly and holy practice by replacing the child with an animal.
We know that Abraham was a righteous man because he believed God and therefore God credited his belief in Him as the one true God as Abraham’s righteousness. Thus the heart of Abraham was already examined and found to be righteous. Abraham’s act follows his righteous heart. Abraham did not reject God’s command as does the legalistic Jew today and since the time of Christ. The attempted pagan act of child sacrifice on a high place on the part of Abraham, especially because it was pagan in nature, was an act of solitary and complete devotion to the one true God. Abraham did not reject God’s command on the grounds that it was paganism. Thus God used Abraham’s attempted pagan act to test and teach Abraham and ultimately convert Abraham and a pagan ritual into Godly worship and devotion.
God never asked for sacrifice and offerings but since man was insistent upon it, God changed it from a pagan practice and replaced it with a godly holy practice.
The legalistic Jew, unlike Abraham, refuses to accept God’s explicit command. This particular command is to listen to His Son, His only begotten son, His Christ, who is Jesus of Nazareth. The legalistic Jew attempts to put God in a box and says listening to that son of yours or honoring him in any way would be paganism. Abraham didn’t say to God sacrificing my child would be paganism and therefore I will never do such a thing. That’s because Abraham had a heart for God which the legalistic Jew lacks. If the legalistic Jew came to accept Christ he’d find that following God’s command to honor and accept His son is not paganism, but is in reality everything holy and godly. And anything less than full acceptance of God’s Son is rejection of God Himself because it is God’s ultimate desire and command that we accept His Son.
Not only “legalist” Jews (but “non-legalist” Jews) make the argument that Christianity grew out of paganism, but so did early Christian founders & leaders (who could in no way be called “Christianity bashers”). They are no more “Christian bashers”, then many modern Christian scholars who are not afraid of self-examination and see no need to distort the record or the NT texts as do the “apologists”.
As for Cain, he knew no laws and no “legal” requirements. There is more evidence that Cain gave a gift to God from his heart, while Abel merely followed suit, being more than a “copy-cat”, because he seen what Cain offered from his heart and Abel seen how he could mimic and even outdo his older brother, his teacher. Remember, God did not spare Abel’s life. His “better” sacrifice did not protect him from harm from another man. He was not the hero nor was he a “sacrifice”. He didn’t provide the “moral of the story”. But God would protect Cain from other men, because his “first born” son asked God to. Ask & it shall be given. So, you could say that Cain could be forgiven & he was “blessed”, so that he could build a “great city” and be an example despite his “mistake” and “poor judgment”. He allowed his “passions”, his “heart” to over-rule his mind. So, Cain suffered, but he “rose up from the dead”. In a way, God favored Cain or Cain’s life over Abel? I don’t believe that, but if most people can read Genesis simple-mindedly, or if they allow their own biases & their own theology to be read into the text and if they fail to read it in context and as the original author intended it to be read, then so can I.
Abel’s “better” sacrifice “that he learned from “pagans””?
Yet, still, Cain was not “legalistic”. His passion, his heart ruled him. He let his heart reign over what his “legalistic” mind knew was right. He next allowed his heart to reject the “legalism” of obeying the every “Word of God”, the legal warning that the Just God felt legally obligated to give. Cain’s passion, like Adam & Eve’s earlier, was just too dismissive of God’s very “strict & burdensome law” (like eat from any of a very LARGE number of trees & bushes & other plants, except for ONE. Or, go in any number of excellent directions, except don’t take that ONE path where there is much DANGER). The “heart” failed, because “it” wanted to. That doesn’t mean always or that there is no hope. But the legalistic Just God is also legally Merciful.
this is the problem with Christianity – they see the accusation of idolatry as if it were a legalistic issue – as if we are saying – aha! – you violated paragraph 4769 of section 885 in volume 2 of the legal code!! Gotcha!
What Christians fail to realize is that the charge that their religion is paganism is that it violates the very heart of the relationship that mankind shares with the Creator
Again – the core of our relationship with God is the recognition that our hearts belong to Him and to Him alone – to allow our hearts to bend in submission towards another entity is the worst form of spiritual adultery – as the prophets describe so graphically
The fact that Christians like to claim that Jesus is not “another entity” doesn’t change the facts on the ground as these two articles illustrate
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/another-mathematical-problem/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/knock-knock/
If what you say were true, you wouldn’t be consumed with Christian bashing (the stated purpose of this blog in so many words). But you are against your brother as Cain was against his because you view the Christian’s righteous heart without the law in service and devotion to God as exposing the accusatory, envious and self-righteous heart of the legalistic minded Jew.
David says
Hi all, I wrote this in response and in rebuttal to “Birthday of the Sun” I think it’s always good to engage in self-examination both for the Christian and the Jew. It’s good to be self-critical, to examine where we are and how we got here.Judaism’s mistaken argument against Christianity is that it is paganism (a divided heart for God) because the Christian is obedient to God concerning His Son. And in the mind of the legalistic Jew, the pagan Christian either serves multiple imaginary gods or mistakenly worships a man as if he were God.
My response
No, this is not a mistaken argument and you saying it is mistaken does not make it mistaken. “because the Christian is obedient to God concerning His Son.” So you admit all the atrocities all the rapes all the fornication all the teen pregnancies amongst Christians they are obedient to your dead god. I happen to agree with that. No, it is not a divided heart it is wholeheartedly giving to a pagan god. What is the Jew mistaken about Christians pointing to a man and worshiping him as a god this is what every good Christian believes so he is not mistaken.
David says
Christianity’s main argument against Judaism is that it is legalism (which is the root of paganism by the way); it replaces God with ritual and ultimately rejects God and God’s command (the Jew in the mind of the Christian is all ritual and no heart for God).
My response
I challenge any one on this blog if he knows what this guy is talking about legalism. He uses this word to make himself sound sophisticated which I can assure he is nothing of the kind. He probably read it on one of those lying Christian web sites. What in sam hill is this guy talking
about. When have Jews replaced G-D with ritual and ultimately replaced G-D.?
David says:
The legalistic Jew mistakenly thinks the way to God is through close observance and obedience to rituals. But as was the case with Cain, God examines the heart first and the ritual is merely a secondary confirmation.
My response
I challenge the idol worshiper to show me anywhere in the story with Cain and Abel where it says that G-d examined the heart first and the ritual is secondary more false Christian web sites. Also what did Abel and Cain do that made G-D examine their hearts.
David says:
God had no regard for Cain because the ritual offering from Cain lacked a heart for God, which was the heart of Able, and which Cain envied in Able and murdered him for it.
My response
Again show us any proof that that is the case, Christians love to make up stuff than claim that this proves their false god is true. In fact this is a proof against Christianity. Their false god claimed to have been before every one something like in the beginning was the word and the word was flesh. Also the Christians claim that their god wrote the Jewish Bible “heaven forbid” so why didn’t any of his lackeys ever ask him about why he accepted Abels and not Cains offering. Again when their god claimed some thing like what goes into your mouth does not count its what comes out that counts why didn’t any of them ask their god.
Leviticus Chapter 11:7 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof, and is cloven-footed, but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you.
Leviticus Chapter 11:10. But any [creatures]that do not have fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, among all the creeping creatures in the water and among all living creatures that [live] in the water, are an abomination for you.
Why the sudden change of their god and not one of his followers ever thought to ask him any thing of which he wrote before. There are possibly two reasons for this one that they knew he was false or they did not believe that he was a god and authored the Jewish Bible.
David says:
God has no regard for the legalistic Jew just as he had no regard for legalistic Cain. The legalistic Jew places the outward act of obedience to God to be of paramount importance, while his heart is far from God.
Again how does this Christian know this ask any ex Christian or any in fact honest Christian and they will tell you on Sunday they go to the choich and on Monday they are in the bars getting drunk. Yes their heart is with their dead god. In fact they are right they claim he cant see he is dead as a doorknob so we can do what we want.
http://community-2.webtv.net/tales_of_the_western_world/BIBLEBELT/
THE MORAL HYPOCRISY OF THE BIBLE BELT
DO THEY WALK THE TALK IN THE BIBLE BELT OR IS IT THE PHARISEE BELT?
Certainly a society that teaches the values of the religious right must have “clean living” written all over it. And ripe fruit of their morally superior lives abounding.
It doesn’t. Far from it. Joining its history of Biblically correct bigotry and discrimination, it is an area with the highest divorce, murder, STD/HIV/AIDS, teen pregnancy, infant mortality, and obesity rates in the nation. With pencil and report card in hand, let’s take a peak at this morally superior and not shy about it “Christian nation” in the south whose only rise seems to be the one in their pants.
As you will clearly see, if the priests of religious conservatism were required to clean up their own house before addressing ours, we would never hear from them again. We can only dream.
David says:
To the legalistic Jew I say: don’t envy your Christian brother as did Cain envy Able; change your heart and you’ll be right with God.
My response
Who informed you that a Jew places the outward act of obedience to God to be of paramount importance, while his heart is far from God. I have shown you that by worshiping your false Christian god that is exactly what you Christians do.
David says
In addition, the legalistic Jew selects only those commands and ordinances of God which fulfill his own legalistic view of proper religion, while rejecting God’s most important requirements of the heart.
My response
Again prove that Jews have rejected anything of the true creators requirements you just regurgitate what you read on lying Christian web sites.
David says
The Christian practice of replacing pagan activities, observances, and rituals with godly activities was first employed by God himself in regards to Abraham…… Read original post
My response
No, it actually does not have G-dly roots, as I will show, this is quite a false assumption
David says
As stated above, the practice is rooted in God himself. God chose Abram, a pagan, from a family of pagans who engaged in paganism and he turned him into a man of God. Pagan locations of rituals and customs included high places and child sacrifice. God brought Abraham to a “high place” for the stated purpose of requiring a “child sacrifice.” At the moment of truth God provided a substitution
My response
This is again false G-D did not chose Abram Abram chose G-D and he certainly did not point to any man and claim him to be a god. The practice of sacrifice was not a pagan idea as you stated earlier Abel was the first to bring an animal sacrifice and he certainly was no pagan and there were no pagans before him to emulate. Noah brought sacrifices and he certainly was no pagan in fact when they did this there were not even pagans around. It was the pagans who than took this idea and perverted it to child sacrifice etc. since they didn’t see to much of a difference between an animal and a human. Just like an animal can eat and dress any way they want so has Christianity taken on to emulate the animals. So what G-D told Abraham to do was bring it back to its original state of animal sacrifice with out the pagan child sacrifice influences.
.David says
Thus God took a pagan practice of going to a high place for a pagan ritual and turned it into a Godly and holy practice by replacing the child with an animal.
My response
Like I stated before he did not replace it he brought it back to the original idea.
David says
We know that Abraham was a righteous man because he believed God and therefore God credited his belief in Him as the one true God as Abraham’s righteousness. Thus the heart of Abraham was already examined and found to be righteous. Abraham’s act follows his righteous heart. Abraham did not reject God’s command as does the legalistic Jew today and since the time of Christ. The attempted pagan act of child sacrifice on a high place on the part of Abraham, especially because it was pagan in nature, was an act of solitary and complete devotion to the one true God.
My response
I’m glad you call child sacrifice a pagan act so what did the Christians do, replace the pagan act of child sacrifice with adult sacrifice this I must say is an accomplished fete to teach those pagans. Oh and they introduced another pagan act of deity sacrifice another major accomplishment to teach the pagans the right way to their god. Get this here is the most amazing thing the holy Christians taught the pagans if you worship more than one god just claim they are one like five in one ten in one etc. I must say that is a holy brilliant move.
David says
Abraham did not reject God’s command on the grounds that it was paganism. Thus God used Abraham’s attempted pagan act to test and teach Abraham and ultimately convert Abraham and a pagan ritual into Godly worship and devotion.
My response
Again I’m glad you admit that sacrificing an adult is a pagan act which you Christians brought back and now claimed it cannot be called a pagan act it is now called a holy Christian act to sacrifice adults.
David says
God never asked for sacrifice and offerings but since man was insistent upon it, God changed it from a pagan practice and replaced it with a godly holy practice.
My response
Genesis Chapter 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering;
Genesis Chapter 8: 20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. 21 And the LORD smelled the sweet savour; and the LORD said in His heart: ‘I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
The true creator may not have asked for sacrifices but we see from these verses he did not discourage it.
David says
The legalistic Jew, unlike Abraham, refuses to accept God’s explicit command. This particular command is to listen to His Son, His only begotten son, His Christ, who is Jesus of Nazareth.
My response
Show me anywhere it says in the Jewish Bible “to listen to His Son, His only begotten son, His Christ, who is Jesus of Nazareth.” this again is made up by false Christian web sites.
David says
The legalistic Jew attempts to put God in a box and says listening to that son of yours or
honoring him in any way would be paganism.
My response
Show me anywhere it says in the Jewish Bible to listen “to that physical son of yours or honor him in any way.”
At this time I would like to say this idol worshiper it seems has not read one word on this site. I suggest he read from the start from august 2010 and here is my e mail if he can refute anything said In those articles i will personally give him or any one 25 million dollars also if he can prove Jews should be worshiping his son of god or his dead god. Peterusa@oponline.net
In fact it is hilarious that this Christian claims that Christians went and destroyed the pagan idols and redirected worship to what they call son of their god. The Muslims claim the same thing they conquered Christian lands and changed their pagan beliefs of worshiping a so called son of god to what Muslims call their true god.
David says
Abraham didn’t say to God sacrificing my child would be paganism and therefore I will never do such a thing. That’s because Abraham had a heart for God which the legalistic Jew lacks. If the legalistic Jew came to accept Christ he’d find that following God’s command to honor and accept His son is not paganism, but is in reality everything holy and godly. And anything less than full acceptance of God’s Son is rejection of God Himself because it is God’s ultimate desire and command that we accept His Son.
My response
Again what is this pagan talking about legalistic Jew does he have a clue. The reason Abraham did not question G-D about the pagan aspect is because he did not questions G-D’s commands at all. You can ask the same question why didn’t Abraham question G-D’s command on the basis that he had just told him. He could have complained and said how will he called thorough thy seed if he is dead without children.
Genesis Chapter 21:12 And God said unto Abraham: ‘Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall seed be called to thee.
Again we challenge the Christian to show us anywhere in the Jewish Bible where it says to honor and worship his son. In fact it says just the opposite.
Exodus Chapter 20:4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth. 5 You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, 6
Deuteronomy Chapter 4: 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves–for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire– 16 lest ye deal corruptly, and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, 18 the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth;
What do the Christians do point to a likeness of something on earth a male and claim he is their god this is completely contrary to what these verses say. So again it is the pagan Christians that are mistaken in worshiping a man god.
I quote now from the Rabbi of this blog which he wrote to some one else. I have told him that Christians do not read they just glance to find if you are against their god than they respond with out reading much of the article or comprehending it.
“You missed the point of the article. Scripture NEVER points to a human being, nor to a tabernacle, nor to a bush and nor to an angel as being 100% divine and 100% human/bush/tabernacle. Scripture NEVER points to any of these to encourage worship of them. The Chritsian concept of an incarnation of God that demands worship has NO parallel in the Jewish Scriptures.”
The following should sound somewhat familiar. The names were changed to make a point in the context of your admitted lack of understanding regarding legalism. You seem to understand idol worship well enough perhaps because it is outwardly identifiable to you and easily defined by a rule.
There once was a legalist and an idol worshiper. They both went before God. The idol worshiper stood far off with a contrite and humble heart; he would not even look up to God for he knew that his sin was great. His thoughts were on his own failings before his God. The legalist stood proudly before God and recounted the list of his righteous acts one by one. He exposed the idol worshiper thanking God that he was not like him. He couldn’t help but identify the idol worshiper’s many sins while magnifying his own righteousness.
God justified the idol worshiper. Why not the legalist? God loves us all and wants the legalist as well as the idol worshiper but the legalist must first humble himself and understand his sin, and place that sin before God. It is only when we humble our hearts and ask God for forgiveness that we are accepted before God.
God judges the heart. God didn’t create a bunch of little robots to blindly follow him. He gave us free will. First comes the thought or the heart, and then the action (not the other way around). Rules are not to function as a laundry list of actions to complete one by one. The purpose of rules (any rule including the so called law) is to either confirm and strengthen a righteous heart or expose a lacking heart. God teaches us through many ways including rules but also teaches in the absence of rules or more specifically the absence of explicitly expressed prohibitions or detailed and defined commands for action.
As in the case of Cain there was no explicitly expressed rule against murder nor was there any rules regarding offerings. In spite of that God said if you do “well” will you not be accepted? But if you don’t do well, SIN is crouching at your door. Wait a minute, do well without a specific rule? Yes, God teaches just as well without rules as He does with rules. That’s an impossible fete of God for legalists’ minds to comprehend. The legalist says NO, NO, I can’t accept it; where is your proof that God is examining the heart or that he teaches without rules as well as with rules!!? The proof is clear and in scripture if you’ll only read it without a legalist heart. If Cain will only heed God’s counsel in spite of the lack of rules he will be accepted. And the same goes for us today.
When God asked Cain for the whereabouts of his brother, for what purpose is the question? Obviously God knows the answer. So then God asks the question for an examination of the heart of Cain. And we all get to learn from the exchange and observe through scripture, the status of Cain’s heart. So the heart of Cain is exposed to not only Cain but to us and of course always to God as are we all.
And the heart of Cain was found to be lacking. He lied to God in an effort to cover his sin and exposed his self-seeking heart with regard to his murder of Able with a question back to God; am I my brother’s keeper. Obviously Cain believed he was not his brother’s keeper. And equally as obvious is that God believes we all are in fact our brothers’ keepers. He wants us all to come to him the unrighteous as well as the righteous, the legalist as well as the idol worshiper.
The legalist doesn’t understand the passage because for the legalist anything that is not explicitly spelled out in scripture in rule form is not important. The legalist doesn’t study and analyze scripture with a heart for God, meaning he doesn’t look for the purpose behind what is written. All that matters to the legalist is blind conformance to a rule wherever and whenever he may find it without understanding the purpose and context behind each rule. And as in the parable which the beginning of this post exposes, the legalist uses the SIN OF OTHERS and his own strict literal and bodily conformance to ritual adherence for SELF-APPROVAL of his ritualistic actions before God.
But God is not impressed with robotic ritual conformance by self-seeking, arrogant, accusatory, and self-righteous legalists.
When God smelled the pleasing aroma from Noah’s offering is it because God is a meat eater? Or is it because it was offered by a man who had a heart right with God, a man singularly and uniquely righteous in his generation? Note that it was because of Noah and Noah alone that the other 7 were saved.
Abram, more than likely an idol worshiper at least prior to his justification, believed God. Before there was any command to action, Abram believed God. Before there was a single rule to comply with, this idol worshiper pleased God by believing Him. And for his belief he was credited with righteousness.
The later command to child sacrifice was a confirmation and strengthening of a heart which was already judged to be righteous.
So it is not the act and then the heart but first comes the heart then the act. The legalist says, how can this be? How can you be sure? Read scripture without a legalist eye and you’ll see.
When Adam was punished by God for eating from the forbidden tree, was it because he ate or was it because his heart had already voluntarily left God before he ate? Why did God say, because you listened to your wife (instead of Me) and ate? Obviously, to expose his thinking process, to expose the state of his heart PRIOR TO the act of eating. We are thinking and decision making creatures, not robots. First the heart, then the act, not the other way around. First Adam listened to his wife, which means he must have thought about it, and then he ate. NOT the other way around. Adam was not a robot as we are not robots. God is after our hearts and minds. Our actions confirm what is already in our hearts, not the other way around.
God teaches us to guard our hearts and minds and he uses Scripture to do that through rules and through the absence or rules but always with a purpose behind the rule or absence thereof.
David says
He wants us all to come to him the unrighteous as well as the righteous, the legalist as well as the idol worshiper. The legalist doesn’t understand the passage because for the legalist anything that is not explicitly spelled out in scripture in rule form is not important. The legalist doesn’t study and analyze scripture with a heart for God, meaning he doesn’t look for the purpose behind what is written. All that matters to the legalist is blind conformance to a rule
My response
What is this one blabbering about how did he get this “The legalist doesn’t understand the passage because for the legalist anything that is not explicitly spelled out in scripture in rule form is not important.” from the passages he quoted I refuted them all and will refute more of his nonsense.
David says
wherever and whenever he may find it without understanding the purpose and context behind each rule. And as in the parable which the beginning of this post exposes, the legalist uses the SIN OF OTHERS and his own strict literal and bodily conformance to ritual adherence for SELF-APPROVAL of his ritualistic actions before God.
But God is not impressed with robotic ritual conformance by self-seeking, arrogant, accusatory, and self-righteous legalists. When God smelled the pleasing aroma from Noah’s offering is it because God is a meat eater? Or is it because it was offered by a man who had a heart right with God, a man singularly and uniquely righteous in his
generation? Note that it was because of Noah and Noah alone that the other 7 were saved.
My response
Let me expose this christian some more. Yes again his god loves the idol worshiper more than the arrogant righteous one we got it soon we will give our own parables. Besides the accusatory mumbo jumbo that the christian claimed he stated that “When God smelled the pleasing aroma from Noah’s offering is it because God is a meat eater? Or is it because it was offered by a man who had a heart right with God, a man singularly and uniquely righteous in his generation?” Again the christian is wrong the reason why God smelled the pleasing aroma from Noah’s offering is because he obeyed the law of G-D to build an arc and again this is how he saved the 7 and that is why G-D was pleased with the aroma for obeying the commandment nothing again to do with heart.
David says
Abram, more than likely an idol worshiper at least prior to his justification, believed God. Before there was any command to action, Abram believed God. Before there was a single rule to comply with, this idol worshiper pleased God by believing Him. And for his belief he was credited with righteousness.
My response
So now the christian claims that by believing in G-D you are credited by righteousness however before he claimed this is not the case you have to have it confirmed can this christian make up his mind. Read his parable “The legalist stood proudly before God and recounted the list of his righteous acts one by one. He exposed the idol worshiper thanking God that he was not like him.” Read it says he was not like the idol worshiper meaning he believed in the true creator and that is why he followed his rules. Where as the idol worshiper did not believe in the true creator that is why he did not follow the rules. Would some one follow rules of a god they did not believe in.? Do christians follow the rules of the muslim god do Jews follow the rules of the muslim god or the christian god I don’t think so.
David says
The later command to child sacrifice was a confirmation and strengthening of a heart which was already judged to be righteous.
My response
Let us expose the chrisitain more, G-D confirmed Abraham way before this act as to his righteousness. Let us examine the verses.
Genesis Chapter 12:1 Now the LORD said unto Abram: ‘Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto the land that I will show thee. 4: So Abram went, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him; and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Genesis Chapter 15:8 And he said: ‘O Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?’ 9 And He said unto him: ‘Take Me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon.’ 10 And he took him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each half over against the other; but the birds divided he not.
Genesis Chapter 17:9 And God said unto Abraham: ‘And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.
Genesis Chapter 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
According to the christian you did not need all these ritualistic commandments he claims that G-D already knew his heart and confirmed it by telling him to leave his land and did not even tell him where just wander and he would show him.
Now let me show every one how he just proved just the opposite of what this christian is claiming to prove. Why is it that G-D needs to as he calls it confirm for righteousness an act. The reason being as he has shown many times here is that the act shows where your heart is again let me repeat by following the commandments of the true creator you are showing that your heart is with him. The more commandments you follow the more it shows your heart is with him. So what this chrisitian is claiming is the Jews that follow G-Ds commandments are not following in their heart. If this is the case so how did G-D prove by Abraham and all the others by their acts that their heart is with him it makes no sense. We even see that Abraham was given many commandments and he followed them all this is the reason it was by his seed and not by Noah’s or Adams that there will be a great nation out of him. So we see it is by following the rules is what gets you in grace with the true creator not as the christian claims just with your heart.
David says
So it is not the act and then the heart but first comes the heart then the act. The legalist says, how can this be? How can you be sure? Read scripture without a legalist eye and you’ll see.
My response
Again no where does it mention heart and even if he is correct we proved you always need an act to prove your heart and the true creator claims that if you do do the act than your heart is with him. If you read the parable the christian claims that all the idol worshiper has to do is say I’m sorry he does not need an act.
David says
When Adam was punished by God for eating from the forbidden tree, was it because he ate or was it because his heart had already voluntarily left God before he ate? Why did God say, because you listened to your wife (instead of Me) and ate? Obviously, to expose his thinking process, to expose the state of his heart PRIOR TO the act of eating.
My response
How does this expose his thinking process if he said you listened to your wife any more than he would have said you did not listen to me.?
David says
We are thinking and decision making creatures, not robots. First the heart, then the act, not the other way around. First Adam listened to his wife, which means he must have thought about it, and then he ate. NOT the other way around. Adam was not a robot as we are not robots. God is after our hearts and minds. Our actions confirm what is already in our hearts, not the other way around. God teaches us to guard our hearts and minds and he uses Scripture to do that through rules and through the absence or rules but always with a purpose behind the rule or absence thereof.
My response
What is this guy talking about he claimed before “The legalist doesn’t study and analyze scripture with a heart for God, meaning he doesn’t look for the purpose behind what is written. All that matters to the legalist is blind conformance to a rule”
Than he claimed that Abraham was of righteousness did Abraham ever question the true creator why he is telling him to leave the land. Why he is telling him to circumcise why he is telling him to sacrifice his child or for the reason behind it? The answer is NO.
To be continued.
Hello David. I liked your response here in regard to Legalism etc.From my point of view all very true. However I never saw Abram as being a pagan and using a lifestyle of pagan sacrifices. And Im not so sure about the Lord using a pagan ritual either and turning it into Holy ordanance? I might have misunderstood your point on this??
Ever since the Lord clothed Adam and Eve after the fall in the garden, dont we see the start of blood sacrifices to atone sin. Adam of course would have now know this from the Lord, and then Adam would have carried this on through his direct family (sons). Through time this observance would have reached Abram even through the great flood via Noah.(Shem-Arpachshad-Shelah-Eber-Peleg-Reu-Serug-Nahor-Terah-ABRAM.? I am lead to believe that Terah was an idolater who worshipped the moon god Sin. Haran, where the family originally came from, and Ur of the Chaldeans, where they lived for a while, were both centres of moon worship.All the family names are all based on moon worship etc. Joshua was making this point in Jos 24:2. Is this your point? I think it could be. I always thought Abram was seen as different, so the Lord used him and seperated him from the rest of his family and made the covenant with him??
Again agreeing with you about legalism. It amazes me that Christianaty, yes with it faults( Mans not Jesuas) that people do tend to forget there past and there present situation. You dont have to look far in the Torah to see Torah legalistics who know the word of God so much, even reciting it by memory that they onced sacrificed their own babies to other gods. Temple prostitution, fornication, Harlotry and even paid there lovers for pleasure while prostituting themselves!
In Love………..Wake up Israel!!!! You have no Temple, no high priest, no blood atonement, no King.
“BEHOLD YOUR KING”!
we have no King, caesar is our King!
Zechariah 11:6; For I will no longer pity the inhabitants of the land, says the Lord. But indeed I will give everyone into his neigbours hand and into the hand of his king. They shall attack the land, and I will not deliver them from their land. (AD70)!!
The ironary is so painful.
In peace. x
You tend to forget that “Christians” did not survive in Jerusalem after 70 c.e. and, according to the gospels just as Jesus failed to do, neither did his followers “cleanse” the temple. They did however proclaim Caesar their king and some, like the Syriac church, even went so far as to make the executioner of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, an official Saint of the Church and at the same time Christians made the enemy of Rome (the Jews, which Jesus was supposedly one of), their enemy. They sold out to Rome & after about 300 years became Rome.
Hello Yedidiah.
Thanks for your response. Looking at your answers I do tend to agree on a point that you make. The other points are quite odd and I think are just folklore. Im talking about constantine and rome. Constantine decided to use this “New faith! for is own personal usage, ie; appease the masses (pagans) introduce this “Christiananty” merge it with the old type, established religous systems and hey presto! everybody is happy! Unfortunatley the Church as it was then married the world and the worlds system. Which again unfortunatley was for personal and polictical reasons. Not what the original teachings of Jesus was or is. So now you have the birth of the orthodox christain church. Rome, C of E, etc. Gold lined churchs, statues of mary. The birth of “Vicars, Priests, Popes etc are just what Jesus was teaching against. The church of 300-400 AD are excaty what Israel was in the temple years previous. This is what is meant by rebuilding the temple in 3 days. You see Yedidiah, God does not dwell in fancy buildings, (well not since He left according to Ezekiel,?? and you cannot find rightousness in the letter of the law, and you cannot approach the Father, have your sins forgiven without the shedding of blood. Hence why the Lord consecrated the Levitical system. Which im sure you would agree this system is no longer in use! Which raises one question?…. Why not??
Do you think the Lord is sitting in Heaven rewriting the Laws, statutes and the temple service because He got it wrong prior to AD70.Have you ever thought why, since AD70 you dont have any temple, King, Priest etc. 2000 yrs plus and still no land as such. ( which will be yours, one day, because the Lord said it would be so) yes of course. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews and Israel, not the church. But not yours out right as yet. So until you see the truth and stop rejecting the Word of God you will never see it. Israel needs to look at the scriptures again and read what it says, not what your fathers and there fathers say about Jeshua. Traditions of mans hearts are a terrible thing and keep people away from the truth. You only have to look at “Christainanty” to see that. What I mean is, what you use as an arguement against Jesus is based on mans tradition and not on the gospels. Sons, Suns which started this topic. Easter, Christmas yes are based on pagan systems.Just used to graft in and merge with old systems. No christmas or easter mentioned in the NT. However the birth, and death of Jeshua are. Thats the main focus point. Because the early Constantine church were quite anti semites the jewishness of the gospels have been lost in time and im sorry to say persucution of His Children, mainly by rome and the “church”! Sadly all have been done in Christs name. What better way for satan to keep you from the truth, but use the very Name of God to keep you from the blood atonement which will bring you everlasting life, in the One True Kingdom of the God. The God of Israel. Through His only begotten Son Jeshua Messiah. The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the World.
Ps. Instead of waking up in the morning, convinced that Jeshua is an imposter, ask the Lord Adonai to show you the truth about Him. Im sure He will show you. Of course you still have to accept the truth, you can see the truth and reject it. But ask anyway. What have you to lose?
Shalom. xx
Hi David,
You wrote a lot about ‘legalistic Jews’ in your response. I think that you were contrasting those who only try to get to God through external actions with those Jews who really respond to God in faith and through grace.
Imagine if there was a person who lived 3000 years ago, who loved God humbly and tried to keep the Torah along with the rest of the Jewish community around him. This person did sin sometimes but was hoping to become more righteous and to keep the commandments carefully. He knew well that he wasn’t perfect, and he had a lot of thankfulness in his heart for the mercy, forgiveness, and kindness of God; it was in this context of grace that he tried hard to come closer in relationship with God and obedience to His laws. He wants to be faithful to God and serve Him, and know Him more, and bless others with His kindness and justice. If you met a person like this, would you call him a legalistic Jew? If not, what kind of Jew would he be?
Another question. You might meet a Jew tomorrow who doesn’t accept the message about Jesus, who loves God humbly and tries to keep the Torah along with the rest of the Jewish community around him. This person does sin sometimes but he is hoping to become more righteous and to keep the commandments carefully. He knows well that he isn’t perfect, and he has a lot of thankfulness in his heart for the mercy, forgiveness, and kindness of God; it is in this context of grace that he tries hard to come closer in relationship with God and obedience to His laws. He wants to be faithful to God and serve Him, and know Him more, and bless others with His kindness and justice. If you meet a person like this, would you call him a legalistic Jew?
I’m asking the question in this way only to make it easier to find out what you think the difference is. I hope you don’t mind. If you think that the first Jew is not legalistic but the second one is, why do you think that there’s a difference? And if you think that the person in the second example does not or cannot exist, can you tell me how you know?
David
If you find yourself judging the motivations of other people – perhaps its time to stop and take stock
Please read the following article – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/motivations-jeremiah-211/
It’s true, I’m judging. But I’m judging only as a result of your Christian bashing blog; so you’ve been judging long before me and therefore have no standing to lecture anyone about judging.
David
This blog “bashes” all worships except for worship of the One Creator of us all – it does not bash people only belief systems – you are judging people
You might enjoy this post
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/judge-not/
A distinction without a difference. Your anti-Christian bias in particular is overwhelmingly exposed on so many of your posts. So based on your comment then you must believe that your Christian bashing blog is justified as long as you don’t personally insult any one particular individual by name?
I’ve seen books and blog posts by Christians that adamantly and systematically try to persuade Jews that Judaism is incorrect and that Jesus/Yeshua was an incarnation of God and also the awaited king in David’s line.
These works wouldn’t be described as ‘Jew bashing’… their authors feel concern and care about the Jewish people they are writing for. They’re not even Judaism-bashing, since the intention is to give a message they care about and believe is close to the heart of God, not to maliciously attack a faith system for no reason.
In exactly the same way, if Christians are wrong about Jesus, it’s appropriate and important for Jews to try and communicate the important message about worshipping God alone… and not a man whom they believe was mistakenly called God. The blessing in other people’s lives makes it worth the constant effort and the difficulty of engaging with Christianity like this.
Is it possible for a Jew not to believe in Jesus, but also not to be legalistic? What if they sincerely and wholeheartedly follow the way of knowing God that was originally given to them, and rely of His forgiveness, and serve Him from the heart as well as by their actions? I would say that such a person was not depending solely on their own efforts to get to God, but instead honouring His commandments because He commanded them… as a means of coming closer to Him in obedience. It’s hard to know another person’s intentions and experiences.
If what you say were true, how do you explain the thousands of years of Christian persecution and force that Christians have put towards Jews to have them accept Jesus as their personal savior? Even today missionaries walking about on the street shoving papers in your face to get you to attend their service. I can’t turn on the t.v. on Sunday without seeing Church services and there’s an entire network dedicated to Christianity. So I ask you, who is against their brother?
Paul
God has already revealed the truth to us concerning Jeshua/Yeshua/Jesus – plainly and clearly – many times over in His holy writ – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/
Mathew ch 15. v1-2o;
Then the scribes and pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus,saying “Why do your disciples transgress the TRANDITION of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
He answered and said to them. “Why do you also trangress the COMMANDMANT of God because of your TRADITION”? For God commanded saying ” Honor your Father and Mother, and He who curses father and mother, let him be put to death. But you say, Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”–then he need not honor his father or mother. Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites!! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying,
“These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me, And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men”
When He had called the multitude to himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand;
“Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of his mouth, this difiles a man”
Then His disciples came and said to Him “Do you know that the pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
But He answered and said “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let him alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch”
Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us”
So Jesus said “Are you still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the tings which defile a man., but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”
Romans ch 7 v 1-6
Or do you not know, brethren ( For I speak to those who know the Law), that the Law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the Law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the Law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that Law, so she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.Therefore my brethren, you also have become dead to the Law through the body of Messiah, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we may should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the Law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the Law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Shalom. x
Greetings, Yisroel.
There are three points which I would like to address from your post.
I assume you are alluding to Christmas as “the most prominent holiday in the Christian” calendar?
First, despite the observance of Christmas or any other holiday by some Christians none of these are found in the scriptures nor are Christians commanded to observe any holiday. It is for this reason I prefer to neither condemn nor commend my brethren in the faith whether or not they choose to observe any holiday. I prefer to teach on these matters in light of the scriptures. The Christian leaders to which you refer who argue for an abandonment of any celebration are themselves quite ignorant in their reasoning. The reason I state this is on the basis of the scriptures which, presumably, they and I have in common.
Second, despite the popular play on words (sun/son) I find the treatment of that point in the same breath as the pagan origins of Christmas wanting. I can appreciate your opposition view concerning Jesus as the son of God, but this is nothing more than a catchy play on words. You equate sun/son worship and state these are no different one from the other, yet, you state only one, the son worship, involved conversion of the individual; clearly, suggestive of something more than a blind participation in ritual by those individuals who converted.
The condemnation of Christmas on the basis of pagan origins is heard just as much among Christians, Yisroel. This same conclusion could also be applied to other areas, other practices, etc., but no less inaccurate. For example, the practice of animal sacrifice did not originate with Israel or the Torah. Animal sacrifice was a common practice among the pagan nations which would become Israel’s neighbors.
The practice of animal sacrifice by Israel does not make those sacrifices unto the Lord pagan or idolatrous. Similarly, the practice of a holiday, such as Christmas, or animal sacrifices in accordance with the Torah, from before Jesus or before Israel, respectively, does not make the observance and practice of these, pagan.
Much of what we dismiss as pagan and idolatry is certainly just that, but in our religious zeal we are unwilling to understand. I’m not suggesting any of us acquiesce and blindly participate in another’s pagan and idolatrous worship, but that we seize the moment to enlighten those who participate in those observances as to the true God who dwells not in temples made with hands, but in the hearts of man which He himself created. This act of taking the things of the world in order to make known the knowledge of God was stated by the apostle Paul in second Corinthians.
“For though we walk in the flesh, we don’t wage war according to the flesh; 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the throwing down of strongholds, 5 throwing down imaginations and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ ”
Abraham, in his idol worship days before God called him, was no different than many around us today.
Hi GilT, I think I addressed some of these thoughts in the first comment here. What do you think?
I’m also sorry for not picking up conversation with you on your blog again yet! But happy new year 🙂
Also, from an earlier comment here: “an issue is that for a long time poetic ways of thinking have forced a link between the two in the context of ‘son of God’ imagery, even borrowing from the Hebrew idea of the sun of righteousness in Malachi. There is no inherent meaning-link between this and the idea of a son, because in Hebrew the words for sun and son are quite different. But because Christianity accepts the overall concept, the wordplay is allowed and the two ideas become a bit more resonantly linked in the imagination.”
People do make the link, especially in some Christmas carols, and it’s those people whom this point was addressing. It’s impossibly to address all the kinds of Christianity at once or to sum up all the issues in every blog post. But what was said here is a legitimate thing to say to some Christians, and as bearers of the knowledge of God in our world it’s a good thing when Jews it out. It’s a blessing when people help to correct others.
*point it out
Also, looking at the post again: Rabbi Yisroel wasn’t saying basing his argument on the similar sounding nature of the two words at all… he was using this wordplay that Christians have used in the celebration of Christmas to point out that ANY worship of Jesus (Christmas or not) is comparable in certain ways to pagan worship. You can see these ways described in the post. It is not proven by the wordplay, but instead it is a description of how serious it would be to worship anyone who is not God.
I was with a young Christian child recently who saw a picture of the nativity scene of Jesus. He pointed to the picture of Joseph and said to me, “Is that God?” Of course I said no. I thought to myself that if he’d pointed to the picture of Jesus instead, it would have been hard to know how to answer because his parents are Christian and he’s only four years old. But even so, just like I don’t have any reason to doubt that this Joseph was a human who was created, it’s as unnatural and utterly dangerous to point to the baby and say he was God incarnate. Give a reason and the conversation can start, otherwise the Jewish standpoint is the accurate default for looking at any human being.
Hi Annelise,
I have read the entire comment thread, but I would expect there are quite a few Christians such as yourself who are quite familiar with the subject, So, I’m not surprised if our comments overlap.
Happy new year! It’s good to hear from you again, Annelise.
I don’t know exactly what you mean. I’m not a Christian… but what were you saying that quite a few Christians understand?
By the way, I think that WordPress is putting comments out of order even in specific threads; what you’ve just written here has come up in front of the comment that Rabbi Yisroel wrote to you earlier. Just in case people are confused.
Annelise, the Christian reference to you is a blotched edit job on my part. My point was that your comment including syncretism and and Tolkein’s “baptising” of things cultural into one’s new found faith are fairly common knowledge.
Further, I heartily agree claims are to be questioned before being accepted.
Thanks Gil, I understand.
There’s a lot more to be said and asked, but we’re running out of space in this particular thread of the comments. I also don’t know if I have anything to say that will be of any interest to you.
But if you have any questions or anything you’re curious about, feel free to ask.
Shalom Gil
Thanks again for commenting on this blog
You completely misunderstood the point of this article – I was not criticising the worshipers of Jesus for adopting a peripheral pagan practice – I was criticising the worshipers of Jesus for their worship. I am pointing out how the core of the worship that Christianity advocates is pagan – read it again.
Also – I never said anything about “converting” individuals – I spoke of “converting” a holiday
Did you ever try the exercise I suggested in my last response to you?
I believe I understood your point, Yisroel. The criticism connection went like this: peripheral pagan practice (sun worship) to worshipers of Jesus (son worship) equals paganism. I believe, according to your article, these two are equal and inseparable with your conclusion being one is as pagan as the other. Understood.
What I brought out was that your reasoning (which itself is not uniquely Jewish and quite common as well with atheists and among differing Christians fellowships) would as well draw a similar conclusion about animal sacrifice in Israel as practiced by the Levitical priesthood. No, I do not equate Israel’s animal sacrifice with paganism, but my point was that animal sacrifice as an act of worship, however ignorant it might have been, was common long before Israel or even Abraham. Merely creating a transparency image by layering one practice on top of another and holding it up to the sun (yes, pun intended lol) to support our conclusion is disingenuous.
As to conversion . . . My point was that while there was, as you pointed out, without even a bother to actually convert the pagan DAY (all caps emphasis, gt) I thought the conversion of INDIVIDUALS was significant.
Exercise? last response? If you are referring to your “eighth response to Gil Torres” it is blank. I messaged you about it a while back.
Hi Gil
No Gil it seems that you still did not understand – I will not accuse you of being disingenuous because I am well aware that the internal defense system that we all possess prevents us from understanding things that are hard for us to hear – that is why I believe that only with patient respectful conversation will we reach an understanding
The key paragraphs in my article are the following
“The heart of Christianity, in all of its manifestations, is the submission towards the aura projected by a certain human being. No one saw that this person create the world and no one saw this person standing as a second person in a triune godhead. These were theories developed by hearts that were already bent in submission to the aura associated with the personality of Jesus.
The worshippers of the sun and the worshippers of the “son” are both engaged in the same type of worship. They are both allowing themselves to be overwhelmed by the attributes inherent in a fellow citizen of this universe.
The witness of the Jew is that everything in this universe and all of the majesty, beauty, mystery, charisma and holiness that these entities may possess are all but gifts from the One Creator who stands above and beyond all of nature while at the same time sustaining and nurturing every detail of existence. It is to Him, and to Him alone, that our worship is due. Not only our own worship, but even those entities that overwhelm men with their majesty, beauty, holiness and mystery, they too, owe all worship to the One Creator.”
Again the comparison is not between a practice and a religion – but I am comparing the two worships (sun and son) and demonstrating that they are equal – this demonstration is completely independant of the Christian celebration of December 25th
As for my response to you – I never received any messages – but here it is
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/eighth-response-to-gil-torres/
The exercise I was refering to is spelled out in this paragraph
“You seem to be disappointed that you cannot bring the Christian Scriptures to support your position. This sentiment perhaps goes to the root of our differences. According to your own standard (that a claim for prophecy be measured in light of previous revelation) what you should have done is that you should have studied the Jewish Scriptures and the Jewish Scriptures alone, absorbed its spirit and allowed yourself to become saturated with its teachings – you should have developed a complete world-view on that basis and then and only then evaluate the claims of Christianity in that light. Do you not agree that this would be the proper approach?
If this would have been your approach – then you should be able to demonstrate from the Jewish Scriptures why it is that you accept the claims of Christianity.”
If you still have problems reading the response you can reach me at yourphariseefriend@gmail.com
Hello There,
Ok well if its a starting point which you are looking for I can give you at least 300 plus prophecies from the Law, writings and the prophets which all point to Yeshuas birth, life, rejection, crucifixion, burial, ressurection, accension, second coming, the Millianial kingdom and the final restoration of Israel. Not course forgetting Israels present loss of a King, prophet, priest, temple service blood atonement, present persecution and disperstion.
And when I mean show you, I mean from the Hebrew language and word, and not from jewish folklore and Rabbinic man made religion.
So just say when and I will point you to your scriptures and show you where you have been miss lead by your hardend heart and the leaven of the pharisees.
Shalom. x
Paul
Please read my critique to Dr. Brown’s 4th volume and you will see how most of the “prophecies” actually refute Christianity – then go to my first post – “1000 Verses” – you may begin to get a feel for the heart and soul of the Jewish Bible
Hi, ok will do. Thanks. But one thing I keep noticing about this blogs and Jewish non believers of Jeshua is the ability to dodge around certain prominent questions which you know you cant answer. (Well thats probally just answered the question)! In my recent statement and past, I keep raising the question about your temple, ie not having one. No priests, No blood atonement. No King, no Land, etc etc. These are not some christian ideas and a made up concept of theology. This is not a misunderstanding of scripture. Its fact. Plain and simple fact. (Unless you do have all the above and you have hidden them from the world??!!) They are not in the Mosque on the Temple mount, thats a fact! Unless you have adopted Islam and there gods. It wouldnt be the first time! I got that info from your scriptures by the way!
So just help me out here. Since AD70 all the above have ceased to function, right? Can some one please show me in the scriptures where God said there will be a cessation from the above because you, Israel with the Oracles of God, have been so obiediant, so Holy, so loving to me, so obiediant in keeping my covenants. So wonderful to all the prophets that came and spoke to you etc. And because you have kept my Words and covenants, and because of your faithfulness Im going to bless you, like you have never been blessed before, so I will strip you of all the blessings, disperse you to the four corners of the globe and you will become a hiss to all who come near you. Some satanic rulers of this world will try and have you and your children wiped off the face of this earth,…… Why???……..because you have been so Holy in keeping my statutes…………………. Ok, I ve got it now?????????????……….I must have misunderstood who the Lord God of Israel is. This might be the Lord God who you worship buts its not the Lord God of Israel whom I love and serve.
Anyway like I say an answer please on the above. And you dont even have to mention Jeshua, christians or the church once. The answers will be found in your writings because the New Testament is a load of rubbish, right?
Shalom. x
Paul commented on Birthday of the Sun.
in response to yourphariseefriend:
Birthday of the Sun The fact that the most prominent holiday in the Christian …. Hi, ok will do. Thanks. But one thing I keep noticing about this blogs and Jewish non believers of Jeshua is the ability to dodge around certain prominent questions which you know you cant answer. (Well thats probally just answered the question)! In my recent statement and past, I keep raising the question about your temple, ie not having one. No priests, No blood atonement. No King, no Land, etc etc.
My response
Paul what is your question about there not being a temple and no priests etc. I don’t see any question here. In fact I don’t see a question mark any where here.
Paul
your question is based on many false premises – I suggest that you read through the articles on this blog – you will find that I addressed your concerns
Just for starters – we recognize that the exile and dispersion is a result of our sins – no Jew ever saw it differently
Hello. Thanks for your reply. So I suppose the next question is this, What are the sins that have caused your exile and dispersion?
Thankyou
Ok Paul I read up above and I saw your question here is the answer
Read these verses no where does it say you need a temple or sacrifice to worship the true creator.
Leviticus Chapter 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it; for I am the LORD your God. 2 Ye shall keep My sabbaths, and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Leviticus Chapter 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments; 15 and if ye shall reject My statutes, and if your soul abhor Mine ordinances, so that ye will not do all My commandments, but break My covenant; 16 I also will do this unto you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall make the eyes to fail, and the soul to languish; and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
Leviticus Chapter 26:41 I also will walk contrary unto them, and bring them into the land of their enemies; if then perchance their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then be paid the punishment of their iniquity; 42 then will I remember My covenant with Jacob, and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Leviticus Chapter 26:44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD
Deuteronomy Chapter 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers
Hi Peter. Thank you for your response. I will love to catch up with you ASAP.
Thanks. X
Response to Paul’s response to me on Dec 30. 1st, I am not a Jew and was born & raised Christian and I first heard of “Yeshua” (as opposed to “Jesus”) & studied the “Hebraic Roots of Christianity” since about 1996-7. So, it was the NT and HaShem or Adonai that led me to reject Jesus-messiah Jeshua-Yeshua. I don’t base that on anything that has to do with Easter or Christmas or persecution of Jews or the RCC or the terrible behavior of some who were “not real Christians”, etc., etc., but wholly on the contradictions & paganism & idolatrous concepts that are contained in the New Testament (no matter which version I read).
Sometimes, I do not provide references to my “folklore”, since those historical facts are so much a part of all I write. But, folklore & the “traditions of man” are so very much a part of the NT and of Christianity. People might take you a little more serious, if so much of your beliefs appeared to be less based on speculation or “re-write” of history. You may need new teachers who are less biased or regurgitate less before first objectively examining its validity, if any. There are a whole lot of years in between 30 c.e. and after 70 c.e. and a whole more years between 30 c.e. and 330 c.e., at the time of Constantine I. There are some Christians today who seem to want to skip over that period, because it does not accord with their new theology. Words of Christians were written down during those years and some of those texts were copied & preserved and in fact some of the original copies of some of those writings have been found many centuries after they were last used. If you have evidence of writings of Christians before 330 c.e. (especially by Jeshua or his disciples), whether they are authentic or not, that I don’t know about (ones that can’t easily be found on the web) and that support your theories, let me know. We probably will interpret those writings differently, but don’t try to deny them, nor try to invent beliefs of Jeshua’s followers, unless you have access to new information that no Christian scholars currently has.
For instance, 2 sources listed on wikipedia, state that Constantine did not decide doctrine, which was the responsibility of the bishops, “rather his role was to enforce doctrine, root out heresy, and uphold ecclesiastical unity”. “The emperor ensured that God was properly worshiped in his empire; what proper worship, doctrines and dogma consisted of was for the Church to determine”. Likewise, some folks believe “trinitarianism” was imposed, or at least promoted, by Constantine I, on Christians or the church. Actually, Constantine was torn between the Arian and Trinitarian camps. Against the Nicene council conclusions, he recalled the non-trinitarian Arius from exile, but he “banished” the Athanasius, the chief proponent of trinitarianism. We read that Constantine was baptised into Christianity just before his death by his distant relative Bishop Eusebius, who also was an “Arianist” at a time when most of the eastern court and the eastern church leaders were Arians or Arian sympathizers. Constantine’s son and successor was an Arian, as was Emperor Valens. So much for the “new age Unitarians” argument against Constantine.
As for the temple, even Jeshua tried and failed ineptly to “cleanse his father’s house”. If this “fancy building” was important to Jeshua (and to our Father), why is it like a “spiritual outhouse” to you. In fact, because of messianic fervor, the temple of Jeshua’s father was greatly dirtied-up and became a symbol of victory by Pagan Rome over Jeshua cleansing power for over 300 to 1900 years. But see, God lives everywhere; in a fancy building or a damaged temple. Israel seen God’s temple destroyed before & a remedy was given to the people over 600 years before Jeshua added to the Word of God because of the desires & beliefs of paganized/Hellenized Jews or because of the traditions of non-Jews. And Righteousness can be found both in the letter & in the “spirit” of God’s Law (so don’t hate God’s word so). Re-examine your small god (who like some pagan religion NEEDS human or man-god blood), and then please read Torah and Tanach again and see that God can be approached (Tanach, and even your Jeshua, said that the Father will even RUN to the returning Son). A God, who according to Torah & Tanach, who can forgive WITHOUT blood (God does not have to stoop to acting like a pagan god that NEEDS a human sacrifice).
I don’t want to blasphemy here, so I will put it in rhetorical questions to make some points strongly (against what is perhaps worse blasphemy). Do you think that God sat in Heaven rewriting His Laws & statutes, because He got it wrong prior to 30 c.e. and so had to come up with a new scheme or play-act that conflicts with His “old, obsolete, decayed Words”? “Blood atonement” was always ineffective, so God tried blood atonement once again, but this time He chose to be like those pagan gods and use human (or god-man) blood, but He would only do it once, because you think He was too “dumb” to think of any better way? God (or was it pagan influenced man) missed Egypt so much, so He sent a “son” modeled after the Egyptian “lamb of god that takes away the sin” of the world? You must maybe think God was lonely and his help mates on earth were so unreliable & He was so tired of monotheism anyhow, and so thought that since the pagans had many gods & goddesses, or sons and daughters, at least 1 son might be useful and could be temporarily “killed” and done “raised from the dead” like all those other sun-gods? Sadly, all this has been done by Hellenized & Romanized men in God’s name. Christmas, Easter, and Jeshua’s pagan-styled birth and death are not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible (some things are close & are considered as idolatrous or as an abomination). What better way for “satan” to keep you from the truth, but use the very Name of God?
This is not “Christianity bashing”, just a call to re-examine what your/our faith really is all about. You can not deny its history (texts & beliefs long before Constantine) or its selected canonical text (although many modern believers are very selective about what verses in the NT that they use, especially if they are trying to sell their Jeshua/Jesus “Jewishness” to Jews or to themselves). To not over-emphasize it’s “Jewish” or “Hebraic roots” (often only imagined) and to not deny it’s other roots. If you use that lame argument that “Jesus & most of his followers were “Jewish”, think how the NT unfairly, harshly, & historically incorrectly criticizes those Jewish Sadducees, those other Jewish Pharisees, and those Jewish “Jews”. To make many of you, non-Jews like me, aware about how insensitive & offensive (and absurd) many of Yeshua’s teachings are. You can be proud of your pagan roots; they are yours & mine (there is a growing neo-pagan movement in the US now). If charges of “paganism” directed at you is offensive, don’t try to deny it or blame those “other guys” (Catholics or the popes or the “heretical” Protestants or Constantine or Paul or_) for it. Just stop believing those beliefs that were once pagan.
Hello Yedidiah.
Thankyou for your response. Well you have said alot there in your last blog. Not sure where the best place to start is, because you have said so much about this and that. So Im going to reply the best way I see fit. The last thing I want to do is to sound sarcastic and flipant. But I do need to make my point and hopefuly make sense at the same time. I might have to send my blog in portions as I have lots to say. Sorry!?
I would like to start, quickly if I may? By giving you a quick testamony about my life.
Born in UK. Currently live in the UK. Parents both believers. Raised in a church envoirment. Went my own way in life from the age of 12-13. Girlfriends, sex, unwanted pregancies, 2 children out of marriage with 2 different mothers, drugs, smoking, drinking theft, adultory, divorced, crime, Violence. Porn, Robbery, thuggery, you name it. Been there done that!
I knew who Jesus was prior to becoming a Christian from sunday school etc. I new who Abraham, Noah, King David was etc. However I never accepted Jesus personally as my Saviour until some preacher ( a beautiful man who was a lover of Israel and theJews) spoke to me and preached the good news about Jesus and how He died a subsitutory death, was raised from the grave. And by doing so He has set me free from the second death. Not because I deserved to be saved from my sin, but because He loves His creation, He sent His Son. Now I no you will reject all that I have just said there, but one thing you cannot do is to say that all that happened to me, (that night when I was born again), is a man made doctrine based on false theology, church history etc etc. Its very hard to explain while writing. All I can say is, its like when one day someone shows you something that you never new before. Once you see it from the inside (heart) you can never un see it. Its impossible. Example…. As a child I was taught that a tall green thing with leaves, branches and a trunck is a tree. Once you see that and accept it as the truth nobody can tell you otherwise. It just cannot happen. Once you see it, its there. You know what a tree is yourself, do you think that anyone could tell you different and you believe it? No its so obsurd its crazy. But I hope you get my point. This Im sure we would both agree. The whole point Im trying to make is first; its a very personal experience and its an internal change/repentance on hearing the Gospel message, that changes you in a spilt second. Its not progressive. Its not based on weighing up what someone says against another etc. No guilt, no shame about my past life. Just stunned, life changing, wonderful, heart burning amazement that someone would die and shed His blood for my sin.
Anyway thank you for reading this. Time is running out for me here so I need to go. I will love to reply to your blog, hopefuly tomorrow.
x
Paul says:
Hello. Thanks for your reply. So I suppose the next question is this, What are the sins that have caused your exile and dispersion?
My response
Your welcome, Paul I don’t see how that is your concern as to why the exile and dispersion. Have you not read my previous posts on this topic let me remind you. All you have to know is it sure was not because they didn’t worship a god that died. If you would like to debate me on that I have a debate room on paltalk where I offer 25 million dollars to any Christian or Muslim who can defeat me. Oh and Paul I can point to hundreds of prophecies that don’t lead to your god that died.
http://community-2.webtv.net/tales_of_the_western_world/BIBLEBELT/
THE MORAL HYPOCRISY OF THE BIBLE BELT
DO THEY WALK THE TALK IN THE BIBLE BELT OR IS IT THE PHARISEE BELT?
Certainly a society that teaches the values of the religious right must have “clean living” written all over it. And ripe fruit of their morally superior lives abounding.
It doesn’t. Far from it. Joining its history of Biblically correct bigotry and discrimination, it is an area with the highest divorce, murder, STD/HIV/AIDS, teen pregnancy, infant mortality, and obesity rates in the nation. With pencil and report card in hand, let’s take a peak at this morally superior and not shy about it “Christian nation” in the south whose only rise seems to be the one in their pants.
At the end of the article here this is what they say.
“As you will clearly see, if the priests of religious conservatism were required to clean up their own house before addressing ours, we would never hear from them again. We can only dream”
Hello Peter
Well I am a little surprised to say the least on your answer. “What concern is it to me on your exile?” I suppose from a certain point of view abosolutely nothing. Your persection, no Temple service, No land, No king etc wouldnt bother athiests and very sadly it wouldnt bother some “christians” either. And again from my point of view as a believer in Jesus, I have my everlasting blood atonement, I have my high priest and in the future my King on His return to rule from Israel. So in a way it has everything to do with me. There are very few indeed so called christians who actually see Israel now and the future of Israel with any concern at all. To be honest most believers I speak to are so ignorant and wilfully blind to where their faith actually comes from. The OT. And again I will repeat myself that constantine and the early church fathers, Arian, greek and the like were not true followers of Christ and the Epistles. There life, ideas and works were very contary to everything that was said and done by Jesus and His diciples. Of course without me and you going round in circles on past comments etc, you will see that the church fathers refuted the idea of a Tri godhead. You also, fine. But from Jesus teachings they dont match up, so as you can see it doesnt take long for error to creep into the church. Yes you dont believe either, but you get my point of ther being differences in the early years of the church. I suppose what Im trying to do here is, to defend Jesus teachings against the early inerror church. Jesus ministry lasted 3.5 yrs. With that in mind, looking back into church history AD100-ish until the present day you cant help but see the longer period of time will always sway opinion with tradition ingrained. So I totally understand when non believers say that the christian faith is this and that and all wrong etc. Its strange really Richard that on one hand I can debate Jesus with you on prophecies of the OT concerning Jesus and Israel and its blessings to come through Messiah, and on the other hand I can go to nearly all the churches here in the UK and mention Israels future inheritance blessings from the OT and they will say “no way God has finished with Israel. The church are the new Israel”. Which at this point my head explodes!! LOL! Hope that all makes sense? So as you can see I dont defend the church as it presents it self, but I dont of course, agree with you on Messiah.I have a love for the Jews and Israel, this is why I am here writing to you. Why because I see Jeshua very much from the OT, not just the NT. And to be honest looking at what actually Jesus did and say, was it actually that bad?? Healing the sick, Feeding the hungry,Teaching the Torah, Raising the dead, cripples made to walk again, Leprosy being cleansed, All acts recorded as history. Are there any writings from non believers that actually say and record all these acts were not true, When you read the NT nobody actually said it was a trick or a lie. It says that all marvelled and believed. The only ones who were against Him were the holy men. They said it was the work of the devil. I wonder why?
So,
If a man came to Israel today and did all the miracles as Jesus did. What would your reaction be? Would you require Him to authenticate himself. Would you call him the son of the devil? Would you want his blood? He has to be “The Son of David” right? So you need to check His family linage, as proof. How do you do that? Im not being sarcastic here! Or are you just looking for Him to establish His Kingdom. And when He does that, then you will know? Or will you know Him before He establishes His kingdom?
Ps. The exile etc, yes has nothing-ish to do with me, but it has everything to do with you.
Paul says
Well I am a little surprised to say the least on your answer. “What concern is it to me on your exile?” I suppose from a certain point of view abosolutely nothing. Your persection, no Temple service, No land, No king etc wouldnt bother athiests and very sadly it wouldnt bother some “christians” either. And again from my point of view as a believer
in Jesus, I have my everlasting blood atonement, I have my high priest and in the future my King on His return to rule from Israel. So in a way it has everything to do with me.
My response
Well one thing I must admit and that is about “Your persection” that you should be concerned about since it was mostly committed by christian evil doers. However I don’t see Jews having “no Temple service, No land, No king etc” has anything to do with you. The fact that you believe in a man god and claim that you have “everlasting blood atonement, I have my high priest and in the future my King on His return to rule from Israel” does not make it true, you have nothing. Just like christians claim to worship one god while one of your gods is in New York one is in Chicago and one is in California makes that three gods any way you slice it. Don’t you say one of your gods is sitting at the right hand of your other god well that makes it more than one no matter what you claim. So the same claim that you are saved and in the future you will get all those things you mention does not necessarily mean that is the truth.
Paul says
There are very few indeed so called christians who actually see Israel now and the future of Israel with any concern at all…… Of course without me and you going round in circles on past comments etc, you will see that the church fathers refuted the idea of a Tri godhead.
My response
So now you claim that you do not believe in your tri godhead. Well you will actually have to take that up with the billions of christians that do believe in your tri godhead. So again begs the question why are you concerned about the Jews and not concerned about your fellow tri godhead idol worshiping christians.
Paul says
You also, fine. But from Jesus teachings they dont match up, so as you can see it doesnt take long for error to creep into the church.
My response
Yes if you follow a false god errors can creep in? I think again you have to take it up with your fellow chrisitians such as these. You say you come here for love why don’t you go to your fellow idol worshipers for love and teach them your truth?
http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/elohim_trinity.html
Does Elohim Provide Evidence For God’s Uni-Plurality? Pt. 1
Sam Shamoun
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/hartman/trinity_historic.html
The Historic Case for the Trinity
K. Dayton Hartman II
Paul says
Yes you dont believe either, but you get my point of ther being differences in the early years of the church. I suppose what Im trying to do here is, to defend Jesus teachings against the early inerror church. Jesus ministry lasted 3.5 yrs.
My response
I always wondered why his ministry was so short maybe you can enlighten me. Christians claim their god came to be a sacrificed for all sins or something like that. So begs the question why did he need to minister. Let him just come sacrifice himself and finito. Now if he did need to minister and I think it does say in your book your man god that died
said go teach all the people. Than begs another question why did he have to sacrifice so soon could he not have gone out to the world for like a hundred years or more make every one a chrisitan than sacrifice himself? It makes no sense can you answer that please?.
Paul says
With that in mind, looking back into church history AD100-ish until the present day you cant help but see the longer period of time will always sway opinion with tradition ingrained. So I totally understand when non believers say that the christian faith is this and that and all wrong etc.
My response
I am glad you admit that your choich and fellow chrisitans got it all wrong. So again begs another question where is your man god that died. christians constantly claim that their man god came to correct the Pharisees that were corrupting every thing in the Temple else where etc. Why didn’t your man god come to correct these false choich teachings like he came to correct the Pharisees? Again we have a question why does your god hate you christians so much that he allowed you to get corrupted and did not say anything since he died. Why didn’t your god at least send prophets, if he could not make it himself, to the christians for all the atrocities that they committed and now you tell me that they even corrupted their man god’s teachings? Don’t you find it a wonder of wonders that your god came himself down to chastise the Pharisees but didn’t find the time to come to you christians for even five minutes to tell his minions they were not following his teachings properly. Do you really want to follow such a god that doesn’t care about you at all?
Or Paul it could be another matter really your god was a demon and really didn’t and doesn’t care what atrocities or corruptions his minions do. I tend to agree with this point and you want me to follow this god or messiah of yours?
Paul says
Its strange really Richard that on one hand I can debate Jesus with you on prophecies of the OT concerning Jesus and Israel and its blessings to come through Messiah,
My response
I wish you would have the courage to debate me on these topics of course you will lose very badly as all Christians who debated me previously.
Paul says
but I dont of course, agree with you on Messiah.I have a love for the Jews and Israel, this is why I am here writing to you. Why because I see Jeshua very much from the OT, not just the NT.
My response
Actually you don’t see anything you just see what lying Christian web sites want you to see there. No where is your man god who died mentioned in what you call OT. Don’t you find it strange christiains claim their man god wrote the OT yet failed to write his own name in it. Don’t you find it funny that your man god who died didn’t write clearly in the OT “I’m coming to you as a man don’t forget to worship me in that form.”
Paul says
And to be honest looking at what actually Jesus did and say, was it actually that bad?? Healing the sick, Feeding the hungry,Teaching the Torah, Raising the dead, cripples made to walk again, Leprosy being cleansed, All acts recorded as history. Are there any writings from non believers that actually say and record all these acts were not true,
When you read the NT nobody actually said it was a trick or a lie. It says that all marvelled and believed. The only ones who were against Him were the holy men. They said it was the work of the devil. I wonder why?
My response
Yes great things he did however so did Benny Hinn he healed more people than your dead man god. Oh and he also claims he raised people from the dead so why don’t you worship him after all did he do anything bad. However he is a charlatan like the one christians worship. Excuse me none of those acts are recorded as history they were all made up by corrupted liars. Of course when you read it nobody actually said it was a trick or lie who wrote your book? Paul do you think we are stupid???? There are no writings and recordings from any one claiming that Mohamed was not true so why don’t you follow him as a last prophet. In fact muslims claim every one called him the truthful one. So your premise is all false as your books are all false. Also he did not teach any Torah he taught against Torah it says in Torah not to eat certain foods your man god or messiah said you can eat them that is teaching against. This is all made up in your lying books every word. Let me ask you are there any writings from non believers that say that these acts were true. No there were not and your claim that it was only the holy men who were against him why did the Roman kill him. Also why shouldn’t we believe the holy men and believe the idol worshipers like the christians.
Faith Healers or Fake Healers?
http://www.arcapologetics.org/articles/article10.htm
By Rev. Keith Gibson
“Benny Hinn claims that thousands have been healed in his crusades. There have even been claims of the dead being raised. But when pressed for documentation, the ministry has been woefully unable to provide much, if any, evidence for these assertions.”
Paul says
So, If a man came to Israel today and did all the miracles as Jesus did. What would your reaction be? Would you require Him to authenticate himself. Would you call him the son of the devil? Would you want his blood? He has to be “The Son of David” right? So you need to check His family linage, as proof. How do you do that? Im not being sarcastic
here! Or are you just looking for Him to establish His Kingdom. And when He does that, then you will know? Or will you know Him before He establishes His kingdom?
My response
Like I noted before many have done the miracles you claim your man god did. Lets analyze you say your man god healed the sick Benny hinn claims the same thing and even some christians claim he is evil and don’t want anything to do with him. You say your man god fed the hungry. Lets see Moses fed a few million people in the desert for forty years and yet you say we should not call him your god but your man god who fed lets see
what lie did you make up like 5,000 for one meal and you call this wow he must be a god to do this. You say raising the dead, this has been done before see OT the story with Elisha. Cripples made to walk, watch the Sunday evangelical programs you will see all the christian fake preachers healing the crippled and making them walk again. Healing
leprosy, again read OT the story with Elisha. Let’s see I don’t know if the Rabbis would agree but if he just did any two of these I would believe, which none has done before. Also tell me how did your false guys know that your false god was a god or messiah before he did any miracles. Paul we would be very much impressed if your dead god actually did away with cripples, poor and blindness etc. Pual did your dead god ever save one of your martyrs that would be impressive not a martyr, any one can martyr for their false god not every one can be saved by their false god.
Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles
When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jewish people will
be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland
(Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17,
36:24).
Rebuilding of the Holy Temple
The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7,
66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zechariah 14:20-21).
Worldwide Reign of Peace
There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete
end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).
Universal Knowledge of G-d
The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will
come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9,
8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm
86:9; Zephaniah 3:9).
Paul says
Ps. The exile etc, yes has nothing-ish to do with me, but it has everything to do with you.
My response
It does have to do with you you support the cult that treated the exiles cruelly and like Egypt was punished you and your minions will be punished.
Your experience is no different from the majority of those “born again” Christians that you so criticize because they are not “politically correct” in your eyes. They are the exact same type of experience as those who may or may not be anti-Semite or not; or whether they ever heard of Constantine or not; or whether they are Catholic or JW’s or Mormon or Muslim. Most cult members had your experience, including those who are waiting for aliens to take them away. People in pagan or other religions and even satan worshippers had/have those types of experiences with their “deity”. I know one “born again” follower of Yeshua (not “pagan Jesus”) who gave up “the lord for music”. Several high profile “Messianic Jews” with a born-again spirit have since rejected Yeshua and have returned to Judaism.
So your feelings don’t alter history. Facts are facts despite your attempt to deny them, just so you can keep your “faith” based on whatever you wanted to base it on. That is ok for you and even for millions of others. But strong feelings & numbers don’t change words in ancient texts nor history. You might read those words differently & in error or non-literally, but don’t build your arguments on “facts” when what you really mean to say your argument is based on your experiences, “emotions” or “feelings”. To paraphrase Jeshua, you have built your “house” on shifting sand and too close to the river.
Hello, Thanks for your reply. I will try and ignore most of your comments because by reading your lines it is very clear that you are very angry. So I will leave you and your inner frustrations to make peace with your self and who ever has hurt you in the past.
However, Keeping all things in perspective, I would like to comment on Deuteronomy 13. Like most people who read scripture, it is read out of context. And people like to sqeeze a scripture into everyday, unrelavant subjects. Looking at the chapter and the whole book it is very clear that the Lord is speaking to Moses in regard to entering the promised land and by not adopting pagan idols etc.He is warning them from the beginning not to be persuaded from strange acts…… “Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and lets us serve them” is stated. Jeshus never said such a thing. It states on several occasions that Jeshua taught from the scripture. Even the Rabbi,s never said otherwise!
The main problem of the pharisees was that Jeshua said that He was doing the Fathers will. Not doing the will of another god. (Before Abraham I AM!) Your statement does not stand. And finally the false prophets of Deut 13 states that those prophets will dream and prophecy a wonder and a wonder will happen. Jeshua never dreamt, or prophecied a miracle prior to the miracle. He just simple made it happen through The Fathers will. On many occasions Jeshua stated that it was there faith in Him that had made them well. And where there was no faith in Him no miracle happened.
So the warnings of Deut 13 are for a time in history to Israel. Yes I agree there are false phrophets and a counterfeit kinbgdom. Satan can copy etc.
But you cannot attatch Deut 13 to Jeshua. The actual charge against Jeshua at the trial was blasphemy, not being a false prophet.
According to Rabbincal tradition not Torah, it was commonly known that when Messiah comes you will know Him from 3 special Messianic Miracles that ONLY He can do.
1. Cleanse a Jew from leprosy.
2. Return the sight to a blind person whom was born blind.
3. Cast out the demon of someone who was blind and mute.
Mathew 12. Clearly teaches this last miracle. It is this last Messianic miracle from the 3 which is rejected by the law men. Very typically sarcasticlly they then “ask for a sign”!!
Note;;; And the people looked unto the pharisses and said… “surley this is the Son Of David?”… Of course they would, This is the very authentication that the pharisees had said was needed to authenicate Messiah. But they said no!
“An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prohet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”.
So even here the pharisses are asking for a sign, Jeshua is not prophesying per se, on His own merit, but on the request of the unbelieving pharisses. So again your statement on Deut is somewhat out.
You then will see that Jeshua then starts to speak in parables. Why, because Israel as a nation, not on an individual basis had rejected their Messiah. On the grounds of being a demon. The rest as they say…………… is history. 2000 yrs and counting. Fact! like it or not, its a fact. Your feelings dont alter history. Neither do your friends experiences.
No temple, No priest. No temple service, No land, No king, No Messiah to rescue you from the evil pagans. Is this based on crazy emotions from a “born again nutter?” or is it a fact.
You dont have to be a theologian to work out something has gone wrong somewhere.
Not sure how much scripture you have read, but know this.. Satan knows his time is short. he also knows this, that if there are no jews left on earth then there is no second coming of the Messiah. Its the Jews who will, in the end call on Him, Messiah to return, to fight, and cast satan into the hell. If satan can keep mankind, especially Gods children, Israel from accepting Jeshua as Messiah then his work is done. Its a corrupt wisdom, but there you have it.
Are you already condemned because you have ultimatley rejected the word of the Lord your God?
John 5;v41… I do not receive honor from men. but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
We have all fallen short of the glory of God and like sheep we have all gone astray. The God of Israel has given you/us a time of grafting in. Through their rejection of Him we have been given a time of grace by faith unto salvation, to be partakers of the Lord God. The time of the gentiles. It will not last forever. Just read Dan ch 9.
ps. a,Not all signs and wonders are evil, just ask Moses.
b,Jeshua never said worship me.
c, Jesua never said worship the miracle. He said worship the Father who sent me.
Thanks. x
Well said. I haven’t been following all of these posts so I may be repeating someone else or getting things out of context here.
There is also Deut. 18:19 “Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable.”
So you agree you will be held accountable.
Just as you agree that you will be held accountable.
Nothing to be held “accountable” for, based on Deut. 18:19, by a Just & Merciful God. Not unless one follows a false prophet, one who is held to account for leading many people astray. A “prophet” of that type may bear “seeds” of division & heresy, infecting even his own trusted students & followers. The “bad tree” fails & produces “bad fruit”, even before a 2nd or 3rd generation has perverted his message. How long shall people follow falsehood? The earlier prophets say, “until the messiah” comes, when the mighty nations will see how they believed “sweet lies” and when they see that the “little people”, who were despised & persecuted, were right all those years.
And the mighty & confident people of the “nations” will ask, “But didn’t our prophet (& prophets) prophesied & preached with the authority of God? —”
“Then the LORD said to me, “Those prophets are prophesying lies while claiming my authority! I did not send them. I did not commission them. I did not speak to them. They are prophesying to these people false visions, worthless predictions, and the delusions of their own mind.” -Jeremiah 14:14.
But the “nations” say, “But our prophet was & prophets were sent to tell us of wondrous dreams, a new world of peace on earth & no more war nor death forever, and new laws in our heart to replace the old commandments, so sin for us is no longer possible. —–”
“I, the LORD, affirm that I am opposed to those prophets who dream up lies and report them. They are misleading my people with their reckless lies. I did not send them. I did not commission them. They are not helping these people at all. I, the LORD, affirm it!” -Jeremiah 23:32.
“But our prophet said your Torah was burdensome, it was the cause of our sin, and the law & Torah was an old testament that was decaying & already obsolete !!! —–”
“You must no longer say that the LORD’s message is burdensome. For what is ‘burdensome’ really pertains to what a person himself says. You are misrepresenting the words of our God, the living God, the LORD who rules over all.” -Jeremiah 23:36.
You make a good point and I agree that we are stepping in it if we following the false prophet. But Deuteronomy 18:19 is making the opposite and also important point that if we don’t follow the right prophet we are stepping in it.
Paul
The Torah itself tells us to ignore miracles when they encourage worship that is different than the worship God taught us – Deuteronomy 13:2
I didn’t mention anything about Deut 13 in this post. But since you brought it up, it does apply more to Jesus/Jeshua then anyone else in Jewish or in Christian scripture. But then again, how much of the NT, can you trust? Does one need to go line by line and vote on which words are authentic and which aren’t? And then, many people do read the NT selectively and out of context or apart from the Hebrew bible. And they look to it for signs; without signs very few people would be Christian and those signs are offered to “evil and adulterous generations”. If a sign was given “that a son of man” (meaning an ordinary male) must be in the “heart of the earth” for 3 days & 3 nights, what should we make of it that the sign not given? When should we take something in the NT as an analogy and when we should we take it literally? Should we take it as authentic or as a corruption that Jesus said that they should eat his flesh and drink his blood? As a symbol or taken literally, that sounds very unkosher, very unGodly, pagan or heathen & unbiblical. Sounds very much like satanic worship. Jesus’s ideas of satan is very, very unlike those of God or of Israel in the Hebrew Bible. Why does the NT writers or Jesus, often reject Torah & Tanach, and follow the traditions of the Egyptians or the Babylonians (especially Zoroastrians) especially in that regard, of an “evil god” “satan” or “the devil”? If there is only 1 Father according to the Hebrew Bible, which Jesus should have more than a little knowledge of, why would Jesus say, the “Jews” (which Jesus is supposedly one of them?) is of their “father”, the “devil”? Perhaps there is another hint in Matthew 4 & 28:. Who gave the “devil” all these kingdoms and things that he could give to Jesus, if he would worship him and then before Jesus dies all these things were given to Jesus? Whose authority is it to attempt to overthrow Torah? Jesus did futilely try to “cleanse” the temple & he did fail, and the enemy of the Jews and of the God Israel, the God & Father of the Jews, and the God of the Hebrew Bible (& supposedly also of Jesus) had their way that there would no temple of Jesus’s father or of the Jews father. But now, if satan should be on the Pharisees or Sadducees side, then we have a divided house that can not stand. Why did “satan”, the enemy (& yet “father” in Jesus’s 2 god theory) of the Jews, take away authority away from the priests of God and services to God & destroyed their temple? And if Jesus has this authority (to undo Torah after 70 c.e.) & all the kingdoms are his, why does he delegate that authority to the “devil” who has been “running the show” (except with Jews who don’t believe in a “devil” & give all Glory & Worship to God alone, no pagan “son” or sun-god)?
Anger? From me? Most people who know me (from “born again” Christians, to secular, to atheists, or to whoever), know me as one of the least angry, the most pleasant & humble person. I love and so I & the Hebrew Bible don’t preach some type of “hell” or some “evil spiritual entity” that some call a devil. Where is my anger? The reader may notice that I often use generalized or non-offensive words like “the reader”, or “poster” or “writer” or “one” or “some” or “many” and I try to avoid words like “you” or a person’s name, so that my words are not taken personally or as an insult or an attack. And why, should I be angry??? Sometimes people feel “anger” from another when they are confronted with things that make them angry. In writing, my points are occasionally made by repeating the other person’s words, with a twist, in an attempt to show them that their argument is weak or their argument can be used against them. Sometimes one must be forceful, so that that point is memorable. The words (odd, someone called my points earlier in this post) are meant to stick in your mind, so that you will think about them. They are seeds. Often my message is not the one “attacked” (notice how I often use quotation marks, like in this case I am not really attacking the person or their beliefs), but it is the reader who doesn’t feel “anger” directed at them. My “audience” is often not the committed person, but the seeker of truth or the open-minded.
When we step & listen we often are made aware of internal contradictions in the argument. So, if “satan” knows that if there are no Jews left on earth then there is no “second” coming of a “messiah”, than “satan” should want to convert as many Jews to Christianity and have them become followers of Jeshua, as possible, thereby making it so that Jeshua no longer fulfills a role of Messiah and fails to be “our savior”. Jesus becomes irrelevant. So those who “truly love Jews” should let Jews be Jews and should be encouraging them in their faith (for much better reasons then the absurd reasoning of those who know and are privy to what “satan’s” real plans are). I can’t follow that illogical “wisdom, since it is not the same in the Jewish Bible, where haSatan is not evil nor Evil, but is controlled by God and serves temporary as an adversary, a tester. If ‘”satan” is evil & is the same as the pagan & Christian “devil”, then God is also evil. To continue, Jeshua wants Jews to reject him or else his plan fails; they serve his purpose (he actually REQUIRES them), so he can not condemn them. So, only misguided Jeshua followers (unknowingly assisting in “satan’s plan) preach condemnation if one rejects Jeshua. Because the “Jews” reject Jeshua (by adhering to God’s original Word and rejecting the later words of “satan”), they are bringing about the coming of the Moshiach. Its a corrupt “wisdom” of Jeshua or “satan”, but there you have it.
In other words, “satan” is not the only factor in the illogical “logic” proposed by another poster. It is Jesus (not “satan”) who needs a vibrant & sustainable Jewish community for he is dependent upon them. Yeshua is rendered powerless without Jews remaining Jews. It is their “difference” from Christians or other Yeshua followers, that brings about the “Messiah”. A more logical, less confusing, and more Biblical & fundamental option is presented by the Jewish prophets and by their Wisdom teachers or sages and Torah/Tanach scholars.
Paul
Where did you pick up that those are the three signs of the Messiah?
These articles may help you figure out something about the Messiah
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/letter-to-sy-about-messiah/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/response-to-th-line-of-fire-9/
Furthermore – when you read a book that villifies the theological opponents of the authors – don’t be so trusting
Hello.
If you will permit me?, I would love to send you a study on this via email. I get all my studys from Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Ariel Ministries. I dont mind sending you my email address from here, then we can link up?
x
Paul
You can reach me at yourphariseefriend@gmail.com – but let me tell you this – I’ve read most of Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s stuff – its riddled with mistakes – why don’t you take the Bible and study that?
David
How legalistic can you get? writing off your theological opponents as “legalists” just because it says so in a book without bothering to look into their hearts – not bad.
David,
Re: Your post of 9:57 this morning. Among other things in your sermon, you mentioned:
“Abram,… believed God. Before there was any command to action, Abram believed God. Before there was a single rule to comply with… And for his belief he was credited with righteousness.”
I’ve noticed this trend among Christians who are very enamored with Genesis:16:6 and what is says about Abram’s faith. We Jews are fond of it too. We also think highly of faith unlike your clueless ramblings about what you think you know about our supposed legalism. FYI: you don’t know a thing about how Jews relate to God..
But I’d like to make a different point.. Again, you said:
“Abram,… believed God. Before there was any command to action, Abram believed God. Before there was a single rule to comply with… And for his belief he was credited with righteousness.”
1) False: Abram was most certainly already given a very explicit command with which to comply. He was instructed in Genesis 12:1 to leave his land, birthplace and home in order to merit God’s blessings. Further three verses later in 12:4 the Torah reports that indeed Abram left “…as the LORD had spoken unto him..” Did we need to be reminded within the span of three verses that God had given him this instruction. The obvious message is to emphasize the importance of Abram’s obedience act in response to God’s command.
2) In Genesis 26:1-5 God makes some rather bold and very clear statements to Isaac about the nature of his father Abraham’s merits.Verse 5 says:his merit was because: “…Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
First I’m curious to know what you think those “charges, commandments, statutes, and laws”, consisted of and where in the scripture were they outlined. Second, can you read that verse and honestly tell me that Abraham’s acts and obedience to instruction were not critical to his relationship with God.
True on your point one that in Genesis 12, Abram was called and Abram obeyed the call to leave his family. I did say that there wasn’t any call to action. So I stand corrected there. I had something more dramatic in mind like the testing of Abraham’s faith through his child (of the promise) sacrifice. Of course there were already rules such as the menu of how and what to eat (no blood etc.).
Keep in mind that Abram and his family were pagans so God was drawing Abram away from his pagan roots and his pagan gods by commanding him leave his family. So, more than likely Abram’s faith development was a process which involved leaving his family among other things. I see it as God setting the stage for Abram so that God would have time to work on his faith without the undue pagan influence of his family. God didn’t identify himself to Abram as the same LORD who brought Abram from Ur of the Chaldeans thus beginning a process to leave his pagan family until Abram was reckoned as righteous through faith. The reason God had to identify himself is that Abram would have been familiar with many gods but he had come to know God as the one true God by the time he looked up at the star filled night sky and believed God. There wasn’t any covenant confirmed before Abram was righteous that night, only after.
So your point that there was some action on the part of Abram doesn’t invalidate my point about the heart coming first and in fact actually it confirms it. Because if it were true that actions without faith (which is legalism) were reckoned as righteousness then God could have and should have credited pagan Abram with righteousness while Abram was acting on answering the call. If you think that when Abram obeyed God’s call to leave his family that his faith was already complete there is no evidence of that and only evidence to the contrary. Righteousness was reckoned to Abram only after Abram believed God’s promise.
And you’re wrong for two reasons on your second point.
Genesis 26:5 should be read in the context in which it is found. There was a famine in the land and Egypt had food, Isaac and the world would naturally be seriously considering trekking to Egypt for food just as Isaac’s father Abram had done. So in the context of all that God wanted to strengthen Isaac’s resolve and to impress upon Isaac the need to follow His voice and stay put and not give in to the temptation to go down to Egypt.
God’s plan for Isaac and the fulfillment of the promise was not to go down to Egypt at that time.
We know that Abraham was righteous based on his faith as stated in Genesis 15. Therefore any actions on the part of Abraham referenced in 26:5 would have been based on faith and not the absence of faith. So when God says Abraham did all these things it is certain that they were done with faith.
Nothing in 26:5 points to actions done prior to his righteousness reckoned in 15:6
To read that into it would be pure speculation and a contradiction of 15:6
How silly of me…
Abraham had also already been commanded about circumcision and to “sacrifice” his son Isaac.
Details…details..
Yes, details, details. And you are mistaken with regard to the details.
On the contrary, Abraham hadn’t been “commanded” about anything regarding circumcision and the slaughter offering of his son Isaac until he was renamed Abraham and that wasn’t until after “Abram” believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
So when 26:5 refers to the actions of “Abraham” and not to “Abram”. It states in part: “… because Abraham obeyed …” And That is confirmed by Genesis 22:16-18 “By myself I have sworn, says the LORD: because you ( “Abraham” )have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will indeed bless you, and I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of their enemies, 18 and by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth gain blessing for themselves, because you ( “Abraham” ) have obeyed my voice.”
Abraham offered up his son, not Abram. So it is the faith of Abraham we are talking about here in the act of offering his son. When God says “because you have done this” we know that it was an act of faith because it follows AFTER 15:6 which was the reckoning of righteousness. All acts following 15:6 including circumcision are acts of faith.
So, once again, 26:5 refers to acts of the faith specifically of Abraham and not empty acts of ritual or even acts in the development process of Abram departing physically from paganism and learning to follow God. As stated earlier, the heart comes first, and only then does God accept the acts of the person as righteous. Cain was not accepted because it was an empty ritualistic, legalistic act. Able was accepted because his act was from the heart.
Abram learned to trust in God, it was a process of steps and stages until one day it was reckoned to him. That doesn’t mean God was done with teaching him once he was reckoned as righteous. God continued to test Abraham (as in the case of the offering of Isaac) to continually increase his faith and strengthen him.
It is because and only because the acts in question were based on faith that the acts are acceptable.
It should also be noted that it is because of the actions of faithful Abraham why 26:5 was fulfilled in spite of the faithlessness of the Israelites.
You talk about reading things in context and my “speculations”. But when When I demonstrate and you concede that your dramatic thesis statement is patently false you are entitled to deflect it with your having had something more “dramatic” in mind and your ruminations about the “more likely” process of Abraham’s faith development. Well I disagree.
I’ll leave it at that for the judicious reader to decide who is doing the speculating.
And as for context, you continue to miss the point. There isn’t a Jew alive who denies the critical role of faith in our relationship with God. In fact Jewish Tradition teaches that Abraham recognized and believed in God even as a small child setting him apart from his pagan surrounding. No argument there. However you feel entitled to read Gen 16:6 where Abraham’s faith is being stated in a very specific context as to Abraham’s believing God’s promise for progeny as somehow defining the entirety – read that again – entirety of the basis for his relationship with God. Yet the Torah then continues throughout the narrative of the Abraham’s and the Patriarchs’ lives to emphasize that it was their obedience to Command’s the generated their merit.
So you haven’t addressed my question. Just because of faith is mentioned in 16:6 – and we all acknowledge that it was important – cannot negate repeated statements that abstract faith was not sufficient. Action was necessary. Abraham didn’t respond to God’s command to circumcise himself or sacrifice his son by saying “Come one.Isn’t it enough that I have faith?”. he obeyed and that is where his merit accrued as is made inescapably clear by Gen 26:5.
You can go on about what Gen 26:5 does does doesn’t prove about chronology. I’m not that concerned with what it proves. I’m far more concerned about what it says. It says Abraham earned his merit by action and obedience. and BTW it doesn’t disprove anything chronology either. I’ll again leave to the judicious reader to decide which of us its reading what the Torah teaches and which is speculating about contexts and themes. .
Lastly I asked you what all those statutes, laws, and commands, were. Any thoughts?
.
I just answered it.
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Actually, the promise to Abram was made before Gen 15:6 (and before the “trust” of Abram). Here it is merely reiterated. And Abram loses that “trust” “soon” (verse-wise, not time-wise) after Gen 15:6 in Gen 16; so shouldn’t Abram lose his “righteousness” or merit? In the NT too, (James 2:24), we see that one is “justified” by “works” and not “faith alone”. By “work” or by doing RIGHT things is how one is judged justly as “RIGHTeous , not by the “words” one thinks or says. Being right requires doing right. Not until Gen 17, does God truly “merit” Abram when He renames Abram, the “pagan”, to Abraham after El Shaddai says “walk in my ways & be blameless”. In Gen 17, Abraham truly “trusts” God and here we get more details about the covenant with Abraham. The change of name signifies that the change in destiny is established or finalized. Abraham could still break that covenant.
Looking again at Gen 15, the promise of descendants to Abram follows a three- part pattern: a divine promise, Abram’s protest, and a divine reassurance. The promise of land, guaranteed through a covenant ceremony, follows the same pattern; promise, protest, and reassurance. We see that followed by an ancient Near Eastern ritual. Scholars call this type of covenant “a covenant of grant”, which is a reward for past loyalty/obedience, and does not involve any obligations upon the grantee (God is rewarding Abram for PAST loyalty and obedience -prior to Gen 15). After this, we see God blesses and gives a similar promise to Hagar (Ishmael or “God hears” or “heeds”).
Thanks for your comments. Nice chatting with you. You have made some good points and are a good debater. Take care, God bless
Reblogged this on 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources.
Couldn’t agree more about the origins of Christmas, but then it wasn’t a feast till Constantine, when a lot of rubbish started entering into the church. Don’t celebrate it personally, nor did the Puritans.
The real birth date of Messiah is probably in August, based on Abia’s course and Josephus’ history.