3. Objection 5.11
Brown discusses the Jewish objection that argues that if Joseph was not Jesus’ biological father, then Jesus was not a descendant of David on his father’s side. This tells us that Jesus could not be the Jewish Messiah. According to the Jewish Scriptures, the Messiah must be a descendant of David from his father’s side.
Brown responds on behalf of Christianity: “Obviously, you don’t believe in the virgin birth, otherwise you would not be raising this objection.”
Here Brown tries to obfuscate the issue with irrelevant witticism. Of-course we do not believe in the virgin birth, but how does this relate to the objection at hand? Christians acknowledge that Jesus’ mother did not claim that her son’s father was a descendant of David. This simple fact disqualifies him from being the Jewish Messiah. The fact that Mary gave us a fantastic story concerning her son’s conception does nothing to change this basic fact. Unless a woman points to a man who is a descendant of Judah as her son’s father, then by Torah law, this child does not belong to the tribe of Judah. If no man from the House of David steps forth and claims to be the father of a given child, then this child has no claim to the Davidic throne.
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How do you know that according to the Torah, tribal lineage couldn’t be passed through adoption by a ‘legal father’? The author of Matthew seems to have thought that it could be, so either he was mistaken or else (as a lot of Christians would assume) the tradition has added to the Torah in this.
You could even say that if a virgin birth was designed by God, then He could also specifically choose a step-father who was a righteous man with David’s lineage, and that would be part of the plan. The child would have a tribe through the willingness of a father to take him as his own, and if caused by God (and being so, not contrary to Torah), who could question that?
Esther was adopted (Esther 2:7) yet she is still considered the daughter of her biological father (Esther 2:15)
I was looking at the Torah and trying to find the part on children, Mothers pointing to the father etc. Could you please give me guidance, ie ref number etc.
Hello. Sorry but im lost here. Num ch 1 v2?
Im reading this as a census for Israels coming war. A census for battle, not a census for who is legible/proof to whom one is born. Is it not just so the numbers were equal according to age per tribe etc??
Gen ch15 v16_21?
No Paul This is not a census for a war this is a census for tribal encampment
ok, but v3 says war??
But/however whats the connection with encampment and birth, mothers and pointing too natural fathers in regard to Davids throne.
Sorry, can you explain.
Paul in response to Gen 15:16-21, what about the descendants of Ishmael and Esau?
For an example after the covenant was made at Sinai, in Ezra 10:2-3 the children of non-Jewish women were sent away with them. It’s sensitive and complicated, but the pain comes not from rabbinic ideas… I guess it comes from the painful situation of intermarriage.
Yes Its a product with very sad end, however Gods grace is mercyful. Its always a case of the Lord making a statute, man breaking it and then God having to show His love and mend the broken pieces.
Not sure what your actuall faith is? But one point that has been totally neglected here on this topic is that Joeseph, Jesus stepfather could never be blood related to Jesus. If they WERE directed blood related then Jesus could NOT have any claim too Davids Throne.
So according to the scriptures OT, and the geneologys of Christ in the Gospels you will see that Joeseph could not be related. So the excact oppersite on what non believers state is actually true.
If you are intrested to hear more please ask.
Paul, i’m sorry i can’t type here more-in the last week typing has become painful to my hands-i know my last comment wasn’t clear either. was just saying that not all Abraham’s children fulfilled the promise you referred to, and pointing out an example where the children weren’t jewish or they wouldn’t have been sent. i wasn’t talking about tribal lineage.
i asked my mum (a christian) what she thinks about Jesus not having a tribe or royal descent, and she said she supposes at times there were exceptions to the norm.
i agree about God’s grace restoring the mess that we make. that doesn’t change the need for those children to convert if they desire to join the jewish people, espec. because of their background, and they’re free to ask if they can join with Israel.
anyway if you continue here with others i’ll read 🙂
how so re. Joseph’s line precluding claim to throne as David’s descendant?
ps in the first paragraph here i was clarifying what i wrote, but not responding to anything you wrote 🙂
It is also true that God could design that a messiah have no virgin birth, making it easier for Torah observant Jews & “gentile Godfathers” accept more easily & much more “Biblically correct” without seemingly “pandering” to non-Jews who were more familiar with “men gods” (or gods/goddesses who acted as humans for a short time), but “gentiles” who could also find it acceptable to not require a “virgin birth” (which couldn’t be proven and which just might be a trick of the devil to con the Biblically ignorant or gullible).
Many Christian scholars believe the gospels were written well after the letters of Paul (which may explain why Paul has no interest in a birth story of Jesus – of any type- much less a miraculous birth which have been a major selling point in his evangelical mission to non-Jews & pagan worshippers). They also believe the “virgin birth” was added on later (which might explain why Mark & John have nothing to say about a miracle baby Jesus) and which also may help explain why the NT mentions followers of Jesus who didn’t even believe Jesus was a person, at least not a “flesh & blood one born of corrupt flesh”, only a “spiritual one”, an angel, a “hologram”.
That is “gentile god-fearers” in my first sentence. I can’t rely on my spell & grammar check to help improve my poor writing & editing skills, so I can be a little more “grammatically correct”.
Besides the silence of some NT writers about a “mysterious virgin birth” there are 2 canonical gospels (and a few non-canonical Christian writings) which are understandably confused about the details of the birth, the infancy, & the genealogy of Jesus. I see no purpose of God “designing” such confusion, especially if one believes, as I was taught, that “confusion is of the devil”. If Augustus Caesar was born as a result of an designed encounter between a god & a virgin human woman, is the “virgin birth” of Jesus a “satire about the Romans by Jews” or “a spin-off of the pagan sun-god myths” by Hellenist Jews or by Roman-Syriac-Greek Churches?
Dear Friends, and others;
G-d said that the Moshiac HAD to have the blood line of David-no substitute. Also, He said He is not, nor ever would He be physical, so Jesus is not descended from David, and G-d would not say one time; “There is none else”, then have three of any kind?
Also, on the “G-d, the Father” and G-d, the Holy Spirit”? OK, say that is valid, still it is only ONE G-d possible, as the two, as separate, mentioned, can only be found in Pagan theology.
G-d, as “father” and “holy spirit” is still spirit, and as He said, there can only be Him, as He does not share His Glory with another. So how can you fit the two into one, and call it G-d?
As for Son? Why? He can do and re-do anything, so why violate His word? G-d would not have a “son”, even though He calls Israel His first son. But this is understood as Spiritual, as in your God Father-he is not your physical father of you, just an expression of love.
One more item, while I have your attention; Offerings can be a hand-full of grain. Also, the side saddles of the Alter? To form a basin so there is no blood in the offering; it is all drawn out! This way, it is Kosher. No blood in the food! And, besides, why not fulfill His promises of the Moshiac the first time, then He exchange places with the Moshiac and dies on the cross, without His promises fulfilled? Not the Jewish G-d-He keeps His word.
In Hebrew the word Echad means One or a picture of two or more things coming together to form one thing. As in when a man marries a woman they become Echad. “One flesh”. The Shema states: “Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad. Hear o Israel the Lord our God the Lord is One. As for a son, Proverbs 30 verse 4 which is clearly referring to God states: Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
If you know?
So God has a Son? Yes he does. His son is Yeshua who was the Word of God, who came to this earth and became the sacrificial lamb or the Passover lamb. Who lived a sinless life because it is impossible for any of us to do it and died for the forgiveness of our sins, that whomever should believe on the name of Yeshua will have everlasting life. Just as Adonai prophesied through your Jewish prophets.
Hello, Yes the word “echad” is a compound word not a absolute word . The actual hebrew god in the verse mentioned says “gods”. Opening the doctrine of a plural godhead.
Moses is called “Elo-him” (Exodus 7:1) was Moses plural? How many incarnations of Moses do you know of?
Come on,,! you cannot be serious??? Please lets keep this discusion in focus and with the respect it deserves.
Echad means “one”just like in English – it could refer to a composite unity just as easily as it can refer to an absolute unity – the definitive teaching on idolatry was Sinai – Deuteronomy 4:35
God does have a son and that is Israel as is explcitly stated in Exodus 4:22
Jesus was far from sinless – a sin most people don’t commit is claim to be divine or claim to be sinless – and I challenge you to find me even one prophecy that says anything about beliving in anyone to gain everlasting life
He may have claimed to be divine but He also backed up that claim. When asked by Yochanan the immerser “Are you the one we should be looking for? Or must we wait for someone else?” Yeshua’s reply was “The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.” In other words, judge Me by the work that I do, Not by who I say I am. The many miracles that Yeshua performed in plain sight were witnessed by many and many Jews believed. But the final miracle was when he was raised from the dead himself. Well over 3000 people saw Him who was crucified, dead and buried, alive. The empty tomb is proof. Now you may say, well, His disciples stole the body. But, the tomb was surrounded by well trained and well disciplined Roman soldiers. I don’t think mere fishermen, and a tax collector would have gotten away with stealing His body. Not to mention, all of his disciples except for John died horrific deaths because of their unwillingness to deny Yeshua as the Messiah. Now I don’t know about you, but a normal individual is not going to die knowing that he is dying for a lie. 1 man may be crazy enough but all the disciples save one? Beloved, I am a gentile who believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And I also believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah prophesied by the prophets of the Old Testament. If Yeshua is not the Messiah, then your Jewish people have orchestrated the greatest sham in history because the Gospel of Yeshua began with the Jews. However, I do not believe that it is a sham. From the accounts that I have read, I fully believe that Yeshua is the Messiah and my prayer and hearts desire is that Israel, the Apple of God’s eye, His chosen ones, my bretheren, will be saved. I pray that the Rouch will open your heart and mind to receive Him who died for you.
Dear man M. Clark;
In the past 2 thousand years over a hundred million have died, so I can be true to G-d. They were and are like the ones murdered in Europe, calling on us to accept His love, even if I be killed if I do not accept your god.
Not only are more and more Christians coming to a more G-d centered way of seeing how our relatioinship should be, but many who have given up hope of Christian honesty are converting to Judaism. The Clarks of the world help in this. For their sakes, I wish you would stop. G-d, not either of us, is whom is in charge, and only when those like you agree with Him on this, shall Christianity have a chance to take it’s place as a partner with G-d, in a peaceful world. Until then, back up and take an honest look at what you have, and see if you cannot be Torah centered, as even Jesus called for, as Jews loyal to G-d are.
As the “apple of God’s eye”, Israel, or rather Judea & Jews, have always rejected “Yehoshua”, aka Jesus. More & more people are beginning to see why Jews were so persistent & why their faith was & still is so strong (they did not “suffer or die for a lie”). It is hard not to recall the words of the Jewish prophets (for those who objectively read them) when you have seen in amazement how the Jewish people “arose out of the ashes” & a “new Israel was resurrected from the dead”. Now on the one hand you seem to think that Jews have rejected their “own messiah”, but then on the other hand you might imagine that they “orchestrated the greatest sham in history”. If Jesus was a Jew, so what? The Sadducees were Jews & Jews who collaborated with Rome & were traitors to the Jews & to Judea, were still Jews, so that “Jesus was “Jewish””argument is worthless & irrelevant. If Jesus had many followers, no one seems to know where they went before, during, or after the Roman war against the Jews & Idumeans at about 66-72 c.e. In the middle of the 2nd century c.e., the followers of Jesus or Yeshua are few in number and they were almost exclusively non-Jews. It is they who “spread the sham or scam” and it is their writings & preachings that have influenced you (and turned-off most God fearing, God loving Jews).
You arguments might be more persuasive, if they were less of a “rehash” of some basic Christian teachings. On this blog there are many fine, well written articles that address and counter most of your points that you make. You may find them of interest, even uplifting & enlightening. Your arguments & your faith in God will both be strengthened.
Dear Mr. Clark;
This verse has been done to death. Saying that the verse referred to a divine child is pagan, and this-godson-is not allowed in the Torah/Tanach.
It is something tht we find in the Hindu and Christian faiths, but G-d stated He does not share His glory with another.
Go back to school and learn Hebrew and anceint cultures, and stop trying to change His word.
Yechiel, did you even take the time to read what I wrote? My God, as you call it is the same God that you worship. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As an African American, I can fully relate to the suffering that has come to the Jewish people throughout history. The Clarks do not subscribe to that. We love the Jewish people and recognize that they are God’s beloved and His chosen people. Whether you accept Yeshua as messiah or not is between you and Hashem. I wish you nor the Jewish people as a whole any ill will. I love the Jewish people and if (I pray that it doesn’t ) but if there was ever persecution against the Jewish people like it was during the Holocaust or any other period in history where Jewish people were systematically destroyed, I would be willing to give my life in their defense. So sir or maam, please do not lump the Clarks in with others who have oppressed and murdered your people. My people have been oppressed and murdered by people who have claimed to be Christian as well. But that has nothing to do with whether or not Yeshua is the Messiah. What say you about His miracles? What say you about the empty tomb? Please. Let’s open the scriptures up together and reason with one another. All of this other stuff just gets us off topic. As an African American Gentile who believes in the God of the torah, Bible what ever you wish to call it, I believe that Yeshua is Messiah because he fulfilled over 400 prophecies that were written thousands of years before He was born. I can look at the scriptures and point to why He is Messiah. I can see Him in in the Torah. I can see Him within your festivals and Holy Feasts. Yeshua is the Passover Lamb. Yeshua is the first fruit offering. The priests sacrificed bulls and goats for the forgiveness of sins for the Nation of Israel. Yeshua’s sacrifice was better than that of bulls and goats for where they were only good for 1 year, Yeshua’s sacrifice is good for eternity. How are your sins atoned for now a days? There is no more sacrifice of animals. Why? Because Yeshua was the final sacrifice for all time. I realize there is nothing that I can say that will convince you that He is the Messiah. You are right when you say that it is God who is in charge. Salvation is His work. Not mine. All I can do is tell you why I believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. And I believe because of the words in the Holy scriptures that YOUR Jewish brethren wrote thousands of years ago.
You might find this post enlightening
Ok, So I read the article and according to that, my entire understanding of the Hebrew scriptures is wrong. So let me ask you this question. I am a gentile who believes in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. What must I do to inherit eternal life? How can I be saved? I already worship on the Sabbath. I try not to lie, steal, cheat, kill, or anything else that Elohim considers wrong although I do fall short a lot of times. How can I be sure that when I die, my soul will be in the presence of Adonai and not in the presence of HaSatan? If I am to keep a torah centered life and observe the law, I will first need to know what all 613 commandments are, and then keep all 613 commandments. That seems a bit overwhelming. So does this mean that I am forever condemned? Please tell me what I must do to be saved?
My Dear Friend;
You do justly, love mercy, and walk in humility with the L-rd, our G-d, you have eternal life.
According to G-d, anyway, and that is enough for me. Now, enjoy life, but remember, we deal with our siblings, so whatever you do not want done to you, do not do unto others. That is His Torah, the rest is commentary (Hhillel, around 40 BCE).
OK. Now have a good day. G-d shall take care of the rest.
Dear Mr. Clark;
Thank you. I have learned much of your faith over the past 50+ years because of the missionaries who try to sell their product to me. I go and explore what was said, and have learned much.
Still, we are talking abouttwo basically different theologies. Rome made sure the new sect would not rejoin us (fear, market place, or politics) by the vote for the Trinity and vergin birth being in favour of Rome.
On virgin birth, we could have lived with this; a virgin made love to the father of the child, thus a virgin conceived. Happens many times a day.Mericles? Yup, why not? Happens many times a day, in India and other places.
Anointed one? when you begome a person with a position, you were anointed back then. It was called Moshiacah, in Hebrew or Christos, in Greek. The Anointed One? Hummmmm-don’t know about that one. I say no more, with whom we have to deal with in Washingto, today.
But to take an age old idea, and one which we recognized as a Gentile one-only-if only because G-d said so, and then tell us it is Kosher? No Humm about that; no way1 G-d said He is one, indivisable, and there is no other, and He shares His glory with no other!!!!
Oy Vey, mom, what are the Goyiim trying to say to us?
Whatever it is, my responce is that I know G-d is a G-d of Truth, and that there is none other. He said so.
So with all in all, how can any sensible person expect Jews and oahides to accept a mutiple divinity?
I hope, Mr. Clark, you now have a better understanding of where Jews and Judaism stands, with HaShem. Also, why any Jew who accept Jesus is religiously no longer able to say legally/spiritually he is a Jew. He gave it up. (J4J and Hebrew Christians, you can t’Shuva)
Shalomo and thank you for taking the time to share your view, but I am committed to G-d, as He said He is.
Ok, So my entire understanding of the Hebrew scriptures are wrong. So let me ask you this question. I am a gentile who believes in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. What must I do to inherit eternal life? How can I be saved? I already worship on the Sabbath. I try not to lie, steal, cheat, kill, or anything else that Elohim considers wrong although I do fall short a lot of times. How can I be sure that when I die, my soul will be in the presence of Adonai and not in the presence of HaSatan? If I am to keep a torah centered life and observe the law, I will first need to know what all 613 commandments are, and then keep all 613 commandments. That seems a bit overwhelming. So does this mean that I am forever condemned? Please tell me what I must do to be saved?
When you have more than 1 god, it is called polytheism. A man & woman who get married are 2 distinct beings (like Zeus & his wife Hera, who was also his older sister). One can give birth and the other cannot. One can die & the other can live separate for many more decades after that. The two, which are “one” can commit adultery with other “sons or daughters” or “gods & goddesses”, they can separate & get a divorice, & one can even kill the other.
The question about the son’s name was asked by a man who said this about himself; Proverbs 30:2 “I am brutish, less than a man; I lack common sense. 3 I have not learned wisdom, Nor do I possess knowledge of the Holy One”. So, you base your personal opinion of a “son” on the lack of knowledge about God that a “brute who is less than a man” has, which suggests you might have less knowledge of God than he?
According to the NT, there is a “mother of god”; a god can be born & so that same god can die & stay dead for eternity. There are also “daughters of God” in the “OT” or Hebrew Bible or Tanach. If you find out who or “what” they are, maybe you will have a better understanding of God & “his people”, and you may want to base more of your theology on better translations of the Hebrew Bible.
Brown responds on behalf of Christianity: “Obviously, you don’t believe in the virgin birth, otherwise you would not be raising this objection.”
I discovered a contradiction. Multitudes of protestants, evangelicals and charismatics refuse the holy virgin Mary and yet they believe in the virgin birth. This is ridiculous! If they only knew what they believe…. I mean, for some fifty years I believed in the virgin birth, too and, slowly but surely I did begin to think! Thus it is not impossible. This is valid for the trinity doctrine and other Christian concepts as well.
I read; SHMA YISRAEL…. With no word this Echad declared that He is in need of a human son or of a pagan semi-God. Maybe, the Christian Theos has an only begotten son – he seems to be in need of such an idol but HE who is echad – never!
I have this conversation on AOLA Best Religion blog. I try to show how the idea of their god-form is not compatible with the Torah. They have G-d divided up into three parts, anyway you look at it. For example; G-d the Father and G-d the Holy Ghost (Indwelling to Jews) as two parts. How is this possible, as the 2 parts are spiritual, where is the dividing line?
Or, if a difference develop, who/where is the decision going to be made?
The existence of the Universe is proof that there is only One, as for this balance, there has to be only One decision maker.
Also; what can a son achieve, and why on Earth, where He allows all faiths we have?
Why one, Christianity, which is a duplication of the others, and no word in the Tanach to support it?
And so forth, but He spoke to us as a Nation, saying and answering all of the above questions. But, it is to embarrassing to admit this?
I just go by what He says, and be done, but I do not set back and let our faith be besmirched, as in the remark of Jews being the children of-whom? Now I was not a great salesman, but I knew better than to insult my customers!
Shalom, and have a great day;
Paul (in response to your post from the 7th)
Yes I am serious – in any case why do you think this discussion deserves respect? Do you think that on the basis of a nifty word-game (which ignores the Hebrew language) you could justify idolatry?
Great news that you taking this serious. I was then hoping you could explain in detail what Ex 7 actually means when the Lord says to Moses “you will like god”
In order to maintain a relationship with the One who created you – you don’t have to be perfect – Psalm 103:13 – you need to appreciate that you are a created being and allow His love that is inherent in your very existence and in your every breath to penetrate to your heart – Psalm 34:9 and Micha 6:8
you can contact me at email@example.com
Ok, I understand that by being a good person and doing good deeds, I will be pleasing God. However, the issue of my sins have not been addressed. It is my sin that separates me from our Holy God. To be Holy means to be set apart and God is set apart from all and can not be around anything un-Holy which is the whole reason that the nation of Israel were required to sacrifice animals. So how are my sins to be atoned for? Consider the following scriptures:
Leviticus 17:11- For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that
makes atonement for one’s life.
Isaiah 59:2- But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
Psalm 14:3- All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there
is no one who does good, not even one.
Isaiah 64:6- All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our
righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind
our sins sweep us away.
So according to these scriptures (unless of course I am not to take them literally) say that unless my sins are atoned for by the shedding of blood, then I have no forgiveness and HaShem will hide His face from me. Please tell me where in scripture God changed His mind and said that by being a good person and doing good deeds, my sins would then be atoned?
Dear Mr. Clark;
The matrix of symbols are for a given community. In this case, the Community if Israel.
If you read of the construction of the Alters, there were flanges on the side, for syphon of the blood of the offering.
Also, if you lived to far away, and could afford it, you bought an offering for yourself and family.
For those who could not afford the animal, a handful of grain would do as well on the Alter.
Now, for a Gentile, offerings are optional. So do not worry, and as we are not cannibal, a human cannot do for an offering, anyway.
Please, I’m really not trying to be difficult, but, none of this answers my question.If sacrifices do not apply to me because I am a Gentile, and from the scriptures I posted, it’s clear that my sins seperate me from the Holy God, how then are my sins atoned for in this present day and age? Because if my sins are not atoned for, I should not expect to see God face to face one day and I long to see my God after this life has ended.
Dear Mr. Clark;
You posted; >>> Because if my sins are not atoned for, I should not expect to see God face to face one day and I long to see my God after this life has ended.<<<
All anyone has to do is to tell G-d he is sorry for his offence/sin.
If your sin is an action or word against a fellow human, and you can make it up to that person, that should come first. But G-d does not expect us to do the impossible, so ask those you can for forgiveness, and when you have done all you can, go to G-d anad ask Him to accept your repentance.
Think; how did you expect -d to deal with humans who never knew of Him, Israel or His Torah? Easy, when humanity spread out from where they landed on the Ark, each community took something of His teachings with them. Is how Abram was able to know something was not Kosher, in Bablos!
The Sacred Books of all peoples have compatable teachings with the Torah, and the people live as best as they can. So if we are right, and G-d is both; infinate and Merciful, He accepts all sincere prayers and repentance. The oldest faith to pray to G-d, by the way, are the Beni Noah. Look them up-may help.
Shalom and G-d Bless you, Roman. G-d loves you.
Have you never read about the “Prodigal son” in the NT. it is a parable about forgiveness (“atonement”). The wayward son was separated by his sins from his father and “dead in those sins”. He turned back to his father (Jewish Teshuvah), but even without repenting and even without planning to ask for forgiveness (he wanted to come back disguised & in secret), his Father RAN to him, that hopeless sinner (even despite his unrepentant spirit). The father did not care what his son thought, but rather what his son did, return. Celebrate now & then cry and talk about everything, like “making-up” & asking for forgiveness later.
You make things too difficult. Don’t make God so small. Throughout the Tanach, God is so often described as a God of both Justice & Mercy. God had to say I don’t want your sacrifices (not that sacrifice is unnecessary). But your “sacrifice” (including words “from your lips”) to God is your gift to God. You are like Cain, who thought his gift was “totally worthless” & there was nothing he could do to please “stone-hearted God”. He was warned he could chose the wrong path; but he chose one toward death, just like many others choose to separate themselves further from God by committing the idolatry of worshipping man-made gods or man-gods. But you shall be forgiven & you will become more enlightened.
The wayward son needed no blood. Blood, as matter & not spirit, too often becomes an idolatrous object, just like a gold calf, an asherah tree or nicely carved totem pole, a statue of your god, or a king or other human (or half human, half god). These creations or objects or beings aren’t the thing really being worshipped. They are only considered “filled with a “holy” spirit”, or like be “covered with blood” or royal garments. It is by using these objects or beings (manifestations of their god), that the sin of idolatry occurs.
Come to think about it, the gold calf incident took place after people thought the lost their miracle-working man-god Moses. The lost “their only way to the Father”. They were hopeless; they were lost. They returned to their pagan ways learned in Egypt. And thought they needed to sacrifice much more to God; more than an ordinary bull, but one made by man where many of the people could pitch in from all the precious gold that they could find. The idea that a sacrifice was absolutely necessary (this was not just a nice gift, no strings attached) led to the idolatry. Justice, Mercy, & the alternative, idolatry, are all big themes in the Hebrew Bible for a reason.
Repentance always worked and always will work – you have God’s word for it https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/atonement/
To everyone here, thank you for your replies. I really appreciate them. However, the fundamental issue that has separated us as people from the Holy God is sin. I agree that repentance is the first step to obtaining forgiveness from Adonai. But sincere repentance is only the first step. Someone here provided the example of the golden calf incident. But if you remember not only did they have to repent, but afterwards the people needed to be cleansed. First the camp itself was cleansed of the 3000 or so that did not side with Moses. They were killed. Then, those that did repent and sided with Moses had to go through purification rituals because they had defiled themselves with sexual immorality and idolatry.
Please allow me to offer another example from the pages of scripture and how Adonai dealt with that.
In the beginning, our first parents rebelled against the Creator. After being warned by the Living God not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they instead trusted the Father of Lies (Satan). When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they joined the rebellion of the Enemy and the fallen angels. This one rebellious act enabled Satan, sin and death to take control of humanity; and Satan became “the god of this world”.
Adam and Eve’s rebellion affected every aspect of their nature. Their body, their soul, their will, their mind, their spirit became corrupted. Their orientation toward God, who is the Source of Life, changed for the worse. Instead of coming closer to God when they heard him walking in the Garden in the cool of the day, Adam and Eve ran away from Him. Adam and Eve were prevented from eating from the Tree of Life by being exiled from the Garden of Eden. They were headed toward physical death – the First Death – followed by the Second Death – Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, or hell as we Messianic believers may call it. That corruption of nature was passed on to all of their descendants like a deadly virus. How do we know that this is true? Because Adonai says that the wages of sin is death, And if you look throughout the Book of Genesis, people lived hundreds of years but eventually they all died. Adam and eve attempted to provide their own coverings by sewing fig leaves together to cover themselves. But our Holy God showed that this was not sufficient. Instead, an animal was killed and the skins were used to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. That first innocent animal’s blood began a sacrificial system that required the shedding of innocent blood for the covering of Sin’s.
This system would continue for thousands of years until God introduced the one blood Sacrifice of Yeshua to end the need for sacrifices of animals for Man’s Sin forever. Yeshua’s last words on the Cross were “It is Finished”. The animal sacrifices were finished forever. Yeshua paid for all mankind’s sins past, present and future…Once and for ALL!
Here is the human condition according to King David: He says The Lord has looked down from Heaven (thoroughly searching with His all-seeing eyes) on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand (they don’t understand enough), who seek after God (they don’t seek Him sufficiently). They have all turned aside (and missed God and salvation). Together they have become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one.
Human beings are “sons of disobedience” – rebellious children. Because of our fallen nature, we are inherently predisposed towards disobedience to God. It’s our “default setting”. We naturally follow this sinful world’s corrupt ways, indulging the lusts of the flesh and the lusts of the mind – physical sins and mental sins – and are by nature children of wrath, deserving of the righteous wrath and punishment of an infinitely Holy God.
Humans are mere flesh – not spirit. We are of this world – not of the next world. We are perishable – not imperishable. The entire world of human beings is perishing and headed for destruction like a rotten piece of fruit. Rabbi Paul or Shaul made it clear that the people of the nations of the world are excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. We are strangers to the covenants that contain the promises of salvation and reconciliation. We have no hope and are without God.
Rabbi Shaul also made it crystal clear that if during our earthly life we personally confess with our mouth that Yeshua is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. But the inverse is equally clear: If during our lives on Earth we don’t confess with our mouth and believe in our heart, we will be lost! The Rabbi from Tarsus had great sorrow and unceasing grief in his heart because he knew that his Jewish people who didn’t believe in Messiah would not be saved. This was the same Rabbi who was also a Pharisee, who at first persecuted those who claimed that Yeshua was the Messiah. What happened to him that he would completely change his manner of thinking and then go out and proclaim Yeshua as the risen Messiah?
Not only are human beings corrupted in nature, alienated from God, under the authority of Satan, without hope and headed to Hell, but we are completely incapable of changing this situation on our own. We need to be born again, but we are incapable of replacing our fallen nature with a new, godly, divine nature. We are in a state of spiritual death, dead in our trespasses and sins. And dead people are incapable of giving themselves life! Dead-in-our- trespasses-and-sins human beings can never be good enough, righteous enough or religious enough to reconcile ourselves to God.
This was the entire reason that Adonai sent a Savior into this world. He was the ultimate Passover Lamb. When your people were enslaved in Egypt and God said He would free you with an outstretched arm, he gave you the requirements to be saved from the last and final plague. He said that a lamb that was perfect, without spot or blemish had to be killed and the blood placed upon the doorpost. When the spirit saw the blood, it passed over that house. But where there was no blood, the first born was killed because without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. That passover lamb served as a substitute for the punishment that we deserve for our sins. Later in history there came one from God who was perfect and sinless and He became our passover lamb. He lived the life that we can not and then shed his blood and died in our place. Adonai raised Him from the dead as proof that He was the Messiah. Now there are no more sacrifices because He already paid the price for all of humanity for all of time. And all we have to do is place our faith and trust in His completed work. I know you don’t want to believe this because of various reasons. But at one time, people did not want to believe that the Earth was round. Instead they thought it to be flat and believed that with all of their hearts. But in the end, they were wrong. No where in scripture has Adonai changed his mind about the seriousness of sin. But He has given us a way that we can be saved. Yeshua said that HE was the way, the life and the truth.
In the words of Rabbi Paul, “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Messiah, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Shalom my friends
God promises to accept sincere repentance – Isaiah 55:7 – throughout Scripture – it NEVER says that you NEED a blood atonement – in fact in Psalm 51:18 David says that God did NOT ask for an offering for his sin
Who will you believe? Paul or God? You need to trust God – He didn’t create you to destroy you – He doesn’t hate you – which father can’t look their kid in the eye?
Hello Roman. No your eyes are not deceiving you, you have just read that there is no blood atonement for sin!!!???
Without being rude to all non believers of Jeshua, you would think that they have never actually read the scriptures. Throughout OT history you see that only afew (remnant) have believed in Adonai. The remaimder have not.
All the prophets spoke against Israels sins and they were punished. So The remainder bows the knee to baal. Its very consistant. And nothing has changed. So dont be discouraged. All you have to do is sow the truth and the Lord will do the rest. God still has His remnant of Israel predestined. Always has. The rest of unbelievers simply do not believe in G~d, period.
I challenge you to present ONE verse in the Jewish Scriptures that states that you NEED blood atonement for sin
21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Pick out and take lambs for yourselves according to your families, and kill the Passover lamb. 22 And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. And none of you shall go out of the door of his house until morning. 23 For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you. 24 And you shall observe this thing as an ordinance for you and your sons forever. 25 It will come to pass when you come to the land which the Lord will give you, just as He promised, that you shall keep this service. 26 And it shall be, when your children say to you, ‘What do you mean by this service?’ 27 that you shall say, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice of the Lord, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when He struck the Egyptians and delivered our households.
27 The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal. 28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.
29 “This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.
Notice the repeated use of the word “forever” How long is forever? A day? A year? A century? A Millinium? No Forever is forever.
10 ‘And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ 12 Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.’
The sacrificial system had been so central to God’s workings with Israel that Moses and Aaron informed Pharaoh, “The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days’ journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword” (Exod. 5:3).
Either Israel would sacrifice animals or they would be sacrificed. The very reason God gave for calling his people out of Egypt was to offer sacrifices to him. A careful study of the Five Books of Moses indicates that more chapters are devoted to the subject of sacrifices and offerings than to the subjects of Sabbath observance, high holy days, idolatry, adultery, murder, and theft combined. Why is that?
Moses explicitly states that the blood offering was necessary to cover or atone for sins in Lev. 17:11.
Sacrifice was never optional. When the Angel of Death destroyed the firstborn from the land of Egypt, he passed over and spared those Israeli homes that had the blood of the offering on them. Any firstborn without the blood on his doorposts would have been killed.
Blood was also required to cover all the sins of Israel as found in Lev. 16:21–22
There is nothing in the Mosaic covenant that suggests that sacrifices were an option or that they would be repealed apart from the Messianic atonement.
Even so, there are a number of verses that communicate God’s displeasure with the offerings such as Psalm 50:8–15; Prov. 15:8; 21:3; Isa. 1:11–17; Jer. 7:23; Amos 5:21–27; Hos. 6:6.
These scriptures however, in no way indicate that God was doing away with offerings and leaving no substitutionary blood offering in their place.
God’s displeasure didn’t reflect a problem with the offerings themselves, but the hypocrisy of the offerers.
Psalm 51:16–19 illustrates this: “For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart—these, O God, You will not despise.…Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering; then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.
God was “pleased with burnt offerings” ONLY when they were offered with a broken and repentant heart. When they were offered hypocritically, however, God refused to hear the prayers of Israel as found in Isa. 1:15.
The Nation of Israel had been instructed by the temple and offerings that intimacy with God was not yet a reality. They could not enter into God’s presence (nor did they dare to!), and yet, they had been promised betrothal to their God (Hos. 2:18–19). Furthermore, they had been promised a “New Covenant” through which their sins would truly and permanently be forgiven. Please reference Jer. 31:31–34.
After the two times where Psalm 40 dismisses animal sacrifice, it then presents a human body, suggesting that the latter sacrifice will take the place of the former. This shouldn’t have been foreign to Israeli ears. They often had been promised, starting with Moses (Deut. 32:43), that God Himself would atone in the end for Israel’s sins. NEVER A MATTER OF EITHER BLOOD OR REPENTANCE.
Although Job had never been short on animal sacrifices, Elihu counseled him that a special ransom was required in addition to repentance (Job 33:24–28).
Although repentance is necessary, it isn’t sufficient (Isa. 59:16–20). Psalm 24 offers a graphic demonstration of this principle. It asks the question, “Who may stand in His holy place!” The answer is discouraging—only those who are perfect. Who is perfect? Certainly not you nor I.
My last example is from Isaiah 53. Take the purple cloth off of it and read it sometime. It states:
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
And please do not try to say that this passage speaks of the Nation of Israel. This is clearly referring to one person. The Messiah.
Now I have provided scripture to show why blood is needed to atone for sins. Please show me scripture that says that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, has repented and changed His mind. Show me where He says “Well when I said forever. I really didn’t mean forever”
“Please show me scripture that says that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, has repented and changed His mind. Show me where He says “Well when I said forever. I really didn’t mean forever”.”. It is called new testament scripture.
Ok, fine, specifically which New Testament Scriptures? Because I assure you The New Testament or the Brit Hadasha is the fulfillment of what the prophets wrote in the Tenach. You speak on opinions. I offer scripture with explanation. You give me what your rabbi’s have taught you for all of these years. I give you what the Word of God is saying and doing so not by the New Testament which you do not recognize, but by the old testement. So again I pose the question, show me a scripture or two from either the New or Old Tesstement that where Adonai says “We;;, yo can go ahead and atone for your sins by swinging a chicken above your head, or by doing good deeds, or by being good people. To me that sounds very Pagan and New Age and does not line up with the Character and patterns of Elohim.
Dear Nr. Clark;
We go round robin on this. Tanach says so and so. Gospel says so, editede-so, edited.
Jews go with so and so. Also, we have two distingue theologies. No argumant from us.
Judaism gets along great with all other religiopns, except Christian Missioinaries and Muslim fanantics. We even have agreements with Hindu and others to work together, based on respect. No trick or treat. Judaism has had a history of conflict only with the off-shots of our faith. Why? The leadership of these faiths say by they being newer, e are wrong. Show what G-dsays, and we-from many years of experience-are told what I read is either wrong, or I do ot understand. But we are told from a versioin of the Gentile written Greek bible that their version is right, or the Koran is right because it is by a Prohet who came later.
Surprise! We are the only People with whom G-d spoke to as a Nation. All other is dependant on G-d speacking to Mr.X, or a god or goddess becoming physical.
G-d stated never He shall be physical, nor does He share His Glory with another.
Gospel says He is physical, G-d came down, G-d share His Glory, and there is no evidence a human was god.
Now, our friends, do you get it? Christianity is a Pagan religion, with all the trappings of the other Pagan religions, with interpretations from a book not compatable with the hebrew.
My Pharasee Friend; can we be more assertive? Then, speaking on my experience, better commuication and working together. Hindus and Jews do, and do well. Google “conflicts Judaism and other faityhs”.
Isaiah 52-53. Isaiah was writing about himself & Israel (Judea). Why would he interrupt all his others words to speak his audience of someone who could not offer hope to them and who wouldn’t serve God until over 500 years later?
So Isaiah, 53 references the Nation of Israel? Ok, please answer me this then. When was Israel wounded because of our transgressions, when were they ever crushed because of our iniquities: how is it that the chastisement of our welfare was upon the Nation of Israel and with the Nation of Israel’s stripes, we were healed? That makes no biblical sense at all and is a poor denial of the fact that this scripture references the Messiah. Now at this point I haven’t even said who the Messiah is. Let’s say for a moment that it is not Yeshua. Even so, it is referencing A Messiah and not Israel.
Further evidence that this passage does not refer to Israel is the consistent use of pronouns in the passage which makes it clear that this suffering servant is an individual who is distinct from the Jewish people to whom Isaiah was speaking. Throughout the passage, the suffering servant is always referred to in the singular (he, him, himself, and his), while the people of Israel are referred to in the plural (we, us, and our) or simply as “my people.”
Isaiah 53:3-8 states:
He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
There is a difference between the He and the we and the He is surely not Isaiah himself because again, when was the nation of Israel healed by Isaiah’s stripes?
The passage goes on to say :
Surely our disease he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way;
And the Lord hath made to light upon him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, though he humbled himself, and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that is before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
When “Israel” is inserted for the pronouns, the passage makes no sense. For example, the servant is righteous yet is dying for Israel’s transgressions. (See, for example, verses 8 and 11.) Either Israel is righteous or she isn’t, not both. In addition, Israel cannot die vicariously for her own sins.
2. Israel is distinct from the suffering servant for three additional reasons:
a. In this passage, Israel observed the suffering of the righteous servant. (See, for example, verses 3-6.)
b. The suffering servant died for the transgressions, or sins, of the Jewish people. This is seen in the closing sentence of Isaiah 53:8, which says:
For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
Clearly, “my people” is Isaiah’s people, the people of Israel. The passage would make no sense if the suffering servant were Israel. In that case, Israel would die for Israel’s sins. In other words, Israel would have gotten what she deserved, which makes no sense and goes against the character of The Holy God. The entire passage speaks of the suffering servant who is the Messiah to come in 500 years, suffering and dying for, on behalf of, or in place of Israel.
I answered every single one of your questions before you asked them – when you’ve read what I wrote on this subject – you can come back and explain why you don’t like my answers – or like others you can see the truth.
There is a section on this blog entitled Isaiah 53 where you can find some of my articles on the subject – you can also read Contra Brown
You may also find this post enlightening
If you want me to read what you write – read what I wrote
None of the passages you quoted says anything about “no atonement without blood” – yes God is gracious and he privides the blood of animal for atonement – but we are commanded by God Himself not to offer anywhere else but in the Temple – Leviticus 17 – and when we do not have a Temple – it will be repentance that will restore us to the land and the Temple – Deuteronomy 30
When that happens we will joyously bring sacrifices to God – are you waiting for this to happen as God promised?
You may find these posts enlightenting
You are not making sense at all. Previous statements ” No blood required at all for atonement” Just repentance. But the last statement says “he provides the blood for atonement.” !!!????
Where does it say in scripture that if there is no temple then repentance will do the job instead? Lev 17. Is this….. WITH BLOOD FOREVER FOR THEM THROUGHTOUT THEIR GENERATIONS. And the consequence of that is the man shall be CUT OFF! from Israel. Anything else would make the word of God and God Himself a hypocrite. Which of course is not possible. Lev 17v 11 could not be a clearer. Why do you say otherwise?????????????
You mention that a temple and repentance will restore you back to the land. So I guess what you are saying here is that a temple will be built first and then you will be repentant, then that will bring in restoration?
Dont you think that repentance is more important than works of rebuilding a temple. Surely true repentance comes from the heart. That would be more suitable for a foundation of any temple?
What are you being repentant for?? What needs repentance? One sin or many??
Also Why have a temple if blood is not required. I mean just repent. Lev 17 says bring the sacrifice to the temple, for all generations. It never mentions just for a while it says forever. Still struggling to see where it says repentance will sufice for an interim period.
Where does it say that the blood of a man or a “god” or “God” was an acceptable (even a required) replacement for blood of an ox or lamb or goat or dove or wheat grain? Perhaps in Canaanite or Babylonian scripture or in the holy writings of ba’al? Maybe writings that revere Isis or Horus or Mithras?
You read leviticus 17:11 wrong – it just says that when we bring a sacrifice it needs to be in the temple and that this is forever
Furthermore it says that eating blood is prohibited forever
It sasy nothing about the concept of no atonement without blood
You also misread my statements about repentance – frst repentance then the restoration to teh land – as spelled out in Deuteronomy 30 – then we get the sacrifices back as the prophets predicted – repentance always works not only for an interim period
Try reading the section on atonement in this article http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=402&Itemid=354
You know what “forever” means in Hebrew? Forever.
Exactly – the law stads forever and cannot be replaced – the law states that we cannot offer outside the Temple – we obey that law – are you looking forward to the restoration of the Temple sacrifices?
So the Law stands forever but not the last 2000 yrs?
Do you read a version of the Tanach from the Hebrew, or the Greek versioin Marcion had made up? The differences we read beetween our version, and what we have is languaged based; We the Hebrew, yours, the Greek. There are several hundred differences listed between the two.
There was another Paul who seems to have believed that the law was obsolete & dead & “forever did not mean forever”. And that a man, who was not an “offering” from “the people”, was yet somehow an offering from the people to God. Or, by redefining the word “sacrifice” (which in Hebrew law was given by a person or persons to God and in most pagan rituals was from humans to a god or gods), the offerors did not endure any cost (no sacrifice!) nor did they even intend to give “their offering” to God. Instead, somehow mysteriously (imitating not the Israelite, but the pagan mystery religions) the God of mono-theists offers up “himself” or his “son” (imitating not the Hebrew ways, but the poly-theistic pagan & sun-god religions) to himself? Or another way of putting it seems to be that god sacrifices for or to people or himself, which means god worships either himself or Man? And this “sacrifice” is only temporary, since the “offering” does not stay dead but is “resurrected”, “life is restored”, not only reversing any “sacrifice”, but nullifying it. But that invisible “blood” is poured over certain people who believe. Thus the “life or spirit” in the “blood” covers you, enters you, so that the highest form of idolatry is achieved. Israel again has turned from God to follow the ways and beliefs of their pagan neighbors.
As a an add on, Imagine the scene. Israel wants to rebuild the temple. Then once that is done, Israel will come forward and repent. Im trying to think of a analogy to explain what Im trying to say??
Try this…………… A husband and wife in Love. A true and wonderful partnership. Then one day the husband has an adulterous affair with another woman. The wife finds out about it and of course the marriage hits the rocks. After lots of talking, crying, shouting, arguing etc the relationship seems lost forever. After a while the wife is at a loss for help. All she wants from all this pain, is for her husband to say sorry, acknowledge the fault of his sin,reassure her of his love, and promise never, ever to transgress again. The husband says ok I will say sorry and repent but not just yet. Lets wait. Lets wait until IM ready. When I feel like I should. Im a little busy at the moment. Can we do this later? I tell you what, I have a plan. Lets go out to a fancy resturant in town. Not today of course, far to busy. Lets say in about 3 months time. Yes that should do it. Im sure if you love me you can wait. Once that is done we can all live happily ever after.
Of course that seems a little strange and very wrong indeed. True repentance comes from the heart when you are convicted from being wrong. Are you stating that Israel will repent once she is ready, once she feels like she can come to God and say now WE are ready. Lets do this in our time when it suits us!!!! Yes today is fine by us. Not much going on here. Yes the last of the builders have left the temple, the curtains are now up. Hang on a minute. Mr Smith from down the road isnt ready, can we postpone for a while???? Sure God can wait, this is down to us we are calling the shots. We havnt had a temple for 2000 yrs, Adonai can wait on us for a change!
Israel has T’Shuva. We do it at least once a year, and some of us oftener than that.
It is to the G-d of Israel, after I do what I need to do to have the way open for my TShuvouth.
Offering of a contrate spirit is all He wants. All else in commentary. So, Paul, look at yourself. If there is some item you need to own up for, for a person you wronged, a promise not kept, clean up your mess, recognise your responsibility, and with a contrate heart and soul, seek Him.
Remember, us who turns to Him, He shall turn to us.
Think of it tis way; Repentance is a form of editing; you look at what you wrote, and edit in or out what is neccessary. Repentance is editing in or out what is neccessary, for a good life and closeness to G-d.
Repentance means to turn from one way of thinking and move in the oppersite direction. To change ones mind.
I dont see it nor does the bible teach anything about editing something that YOU decide you want that fits comfortable with a lifestyle thats feels nice. X
We have been trying to tell you this for two millinium. Now you shall listen, or do you know something G-d does ot know?
Isaiah had a different thought on the subject; Isaiah 60:18
Lol! I thought believers in Christ have been telling you for the last 2000yrs to repent!
And I only know whats written, nothing else
Paul, my friend;
Your missionaries have been working over time to not have us repent, but to commit a sin as bad as murder; rejection of G-d. Your Hebrew Christians and others are an insult to true Christianity. If you love your faith, do something about tese tricksters. You accept JC and his descriptioin as Christians are taught, as Jews for Christ do, you are a Christian. There is no dula citizenship here.
Hello. Thats an intresting statement. So what is ” true Christaianity”?
thinkig about it now, you have made an incredble paradox statement.
True christianty is/are belivers in Jeshua as God Messiah Born from a virgins womb. Born into the house of David.Born as a jew. Born to die for the transgression of sin. Ressurected by His Father, and by doing so He is the first ressurection. This is the gospel. Which according to the NT should be preached too the Jew first.
So according to you I should be doing what a christian should be doing. Guess what? Yes you got it.
Yes, I got it, and it is what was commanded in the Gospel; to share the faith!
Now, which faith?
The Jewish People had a veraity of sects, but all agreed on certain points.
None accepted the pagan ideas, which you mentioined.
So what should be done is to de-Paganized the world; i.e., you all come to Torah.
You all are going the wrong directioin, by what you just said.
What are you going top do about it?
I am going His way; shall you?
One example of how we discribe true Judaism are the 13 Principels of the Torah. They are;
which Rambam thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:
1. G-d exists
2. G-d is one and unique
3. G-d is incorporeal
4. G-d is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses’ prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8. The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the . Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Messiah will come
13. The dead will be resurrected
As yhou can see, there is no room for an other, by any discription.
You and each missionary have their idea of what “True” Christianity is. Not our concern; our concern is that all of Christianity is based on a theology different than what G-d taught us, and commanded us to do. This includes the sects, as Hebrew Christians. They reject Judaism by accepting Jesus, thus they are not being honest with themselves or anyone else. This dishonesty is an insult to Christians who are true to their faith, as well as the Gentiles who pretend to be Jewish.
How many false Rabbis do they have? By false, reject Torah by accepting a human divinity, and the majority of them I have read from or listen to in line have no education in an Yesheva
There are many more items, and you pretending there are not is futile, as most of the readers and bloggers here know the truth.
Any deviation, as accepting Jesus, for example, is to negate a Jew’s salvation. Nothing wrong with Christianity as far as I am concern, but like all other religions, it is an other religion.
Sorry do not follow your point??
Your group of Christians (not all) teach distruction of Israel. Read Is.60:18, and you get the opposite point of view.
Shgalom, and go back to school.
Ah I see your point. Well not sure what others say about Israel. The bible teaches a great war. The nations vs Israel. Agreat blood bath. But as always God has reserved His remnant. These will be saved when Jeshua returns for His children. And peace in the land.
In all of the Christian to Christian wars you have had over the past two thousand years, can you honestly say your fellow Christins have not killed Jesus, the second time around?
Now, G-d told us what would happen. no return trips for His workers; maybe for yours?
Your faith has proven we are right! You were told that all predicted in the lifetime of the then, concurrent witnesses, wouls happen as “fortold”.
Update from one of the greatest leaders of the 20th Century.https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/response-to-line-of-fire-11/#comments
God will bring us the Temple back when we repent
By the way – Jesus hasn’t returned for 2000 years – what happened?
Ah thats easy, first the true Church will be raptured, then sometime after Israel will sign a peace deal with the anti christ. After 3.5 years he will break that covernant. After the last 3.5 the nations will almost wipe Israel off the face of earth, and then and only then will you call upon the Lord. Only then will you see and call unto Him whom you rejected. Then once you have repented for your fathers sin Messiah will come a second time and destroy your enemies. Then comes the 1000 yrs kingdom. Thats whats happens. X
I also read science fiction stories. But G-d is in control, and your fictional version is not in His repertoire. So try this prediction; Israel shall rule the Near East… I read this somewhere, along with other stories. Have fun.
Hello, yes I totally agree with you God is in control. And this is His plan. Only because you dont believe in something doesnt make it less
true. Most of the prophets teach this.fairytale!!!!
Prophets teach what G-d told them to teach. A humangod is not part of it.
I read other rligions start-up stories, and only the names have been changed, other-wise birth date, slaughter of the innocents, god getting a woman pregnant, running for their lives and much more of some or all of the above, pre-dating the 1st Century.
Also, we see how you all deal with the contradictions between what G-d said, and what we find in the Gospel. And you all still trying the switch and bate!?
Not only Jews wo have read His word do not buy into it, but tousands of your fellow Christinas also reject the distortions, with many converting to the Noahide and Jewish faiths.
You really have nothing to go with; comments like the prophets teach fiary tales is not helping you.
Sad part is, Christianity is a good religion, as good as Hindu, Buddah, Tao and others. The Native American’s faith was mistaken for an outgrowth of your or our faith, even though they came from Eastern Asia. So take the good you have, as millions of Christians are, and work with it, and people of other faiths. You want to make your Church Fathers happy, show that your religioin has what it takes to be G-d like, not a house of salesmen.
If you had used the wife as the adulteror and God as the forgiving husband, then you would be quoting Hebrew scripture. Even Jesus told the same story of repentance & forgiveness in the prodigal son parable. Imagine that; the Father runs to his unrepentant, but returning son. NO BLOOD REQUIRED ACCORDING TO YOUR JESUS or Yeshua. Paul, you are the “adulterous Israel” who idolizes blood & a man-god and who has gone “a-woring” after Babylon. Repent & you CAN be forgiven, for God is NOT a Man.
If you had used the wife as the adulteror and God as the forgiving husband, then you would be quoting Hebrew scripture. Even Jesus told the same story of repentance & forgiveness in the prodigal son parable. Imagine that; the Father runs to his unrepentant, but returning son. NO BLOOD REQUIRED ACCORDING TO YOUR JESUS or Yeshua. Paul, you are the “adulterous Israel” who idolizes blood & a man-god and who has gone “a-woring” after Babylon. Repent & you CAN be forgiven, for God is NOT a Man.
when will Isaiah 26:2 be fulfilled?
Hello. Well I think during the millennium period??
Remember, this statement by G-d is still what we have to go by.
Now, there is no other way, as there is no other G-d..
There is above the 1, for verse 1, RASHI”S COMMENTARY SHOW HIDE. Place your pointer over “show”, and you should ge Rashi’s commentary.
Hello. Yes of course I agree the word of God is absolute and final.
Was wondering what your thoughts were concerning who can pardon transgressions/sins?
You asked; “Hello. Yes of course I agree the word of God is absolute and final.
Was wondering what your thoughts were concerning who can pardon transgressions/sins?”
HaShem, only after you clean up your mess. No one can do it for you, unlike the Christian suggestion.
For example, you promised to do something for X, and forget. You can get your pardon only after you do what you can to make up to X for not keeping your promise.
Purim, by the way, illestrates this very well. By restoring our loyalty to HaShem, He then made it possible to overcome Heman’s evil. You may have noted in reading Esther, that Heman got what he had planed for Mordichai. Should not have goen against G-d.
A more recent version of this from Christians, is the Bosnia Genocide in the 16th century; the sect of Christians were not the right kind of Christian, so the other “christians” joined togther and wiped out the Christians, there. So what happened? The Muslims took advantage.
Evil does as evil is, Paul. So stop trying to shake Jews from HaShem; He has other plans and you have no right to interfer!
Thanks for your answer. I think you might have read a little more into what I was asking but you did initially answer my point/question. You state (which of course I agree with) that only the Lord God can pardon, forgive mans sins.
What I was leading up to was asking you, who the scriptures are speaking of in Ex ch 26 v21?
The latter part of your reply I suppose is what it says in the scriptures in regard, curse for curse and like for like. I will bless those who bless you (Israel), but curse those who curse you (Israel)?
Sorry Ex ch 23 v21.
Are you trying to suggest Jesus is only to be considered as the typical OT “angel of God” and not a man, but only a “vision”; not “flesh & blood”, not a messiah, not a prophet, not a “sacrifice” (since of course, he was not an animal)? Is he ever referenced in the gospels as “an angel” by those who seen him?
The Hebrew word for “angel” translate as messenger. Humans have been called malachim. But, we accept G-d’s way of looking at it, so the other items are not available on the Judaiic/Torah menu.
A good example of the above is the word; satan.Means “adversary”.Humans have been called “satan” to an evil person or action.
Gentiles not correctly using the language have twisted it into meanings the concurrent people when the verses were written would not have understood. Time, perspective, or differences in beliefs prevailed in a common sense invironment. It took the imagry of Pagans to make the difference, and Jews who are loyal to HaShem do not follow the Pagan/godson idea.
That is the rest of the story. Have a good day.
Anyone Christian who knows just some basic Judaism (101 level) or has taken a course in Old Testament (Tanach) knows that “malachim” means messenger and that term is a bit different from how many people “angels”. And they know (or should know) that haSatan is an adversary and is controllable by God and that term is used quite differently in the Tanach from how satan, or especially how “the devil”, is used or seen in the NT & the Christian OT. So many Christians come from a whole different theological point-of-view from that in Judaism. That is why some people think that they have “proof” for their beliefs or that they are asking Jews tough “I gotcha questions”, like that about Exodus 23:21. when instead others see the question more as silly and a basic misunderstanding of Torah or Tanach or of what Jews believe.
There are many good resources out there for those interested in understanding terms & concepts about God or how God is viewed in the Tanach or by Judaism, but I will name a few. “The God of Old: Inside the Lost World of the Bible”, by James L. Kugel is easy to read and good. He has another book called. “How to Read the Bible: A Guide to Scripture, Then and Now”. And similarly titled as the last book is one called “How to Read the Jewish Bible” (originally just called “How to Read the Bible”), by Marc Zvi Brettler.
Thank you. By those interested in an honest understanding of the scriptures, these books can help. I appreciate our efforts to help them find good material. main thing still is to do the best you can, as He placed you, and work with your siblings with respect.
Some might have a problem with 1 or more of those books or they aren’t “into reading”, so far all serious readers of Tanach or OT, you might want to just start with “The Jewish Study Bible” using the Jewish Publication Society’s TANAKH Translation.
Well one thing you see from the OT is that the 2nd person of the trinity does show Himself on quite afew occasions. Of course being a believer in Jeshua I firmley believe only what is written in the scriptures and not on popular anti- Jeshua preconceived ideas.
So without, at this point going to far into this topic, lets look at the first question which I raised afew questions back.
“Who can forgive sins apart from the Lord God” The answer which was given is of course no one apart from God Himself. Adonai the God Of Israel. Perfect and correct.
Next, we have to look at the scriptures and try and find anywhere in scriptures does it state that someone else can on Gods behalf? Was anyone delegated?
No of course is the answer. There were of course, priests, the temple and all the sacrifices systems which the Lord put in place, but these were of course always created and iniated by the Lord at His command. So no other person or system was ever put in place to forgive sins. The scribes of course new this when they question Jeshua when He stated “Get up your sins are forgiven”.
No one can forgive sin except God Himself. Which of course they were right! Only God can forgive sin.
Mere repentance as someone stated on this blog cannot forgive ones sin. That means we can forgive our own sins. No chance! What next hug a tree, and burn some smelly candles?
Exodus ch 23.
1. He will not pardon your transgressions. v21
2. My name is in Him. v21. The name is Jehovah, a name only to members of the Godhead, This Angel has that name.
3.There are blessings for obeying Him.
4.He is the Angel of the Exodus.
To me this is very clear whom God is talking about.
The Son of Man has always excisted in God because God has always excisted. There is no beginning to God. So the Angel which you see in scripture on many occasions is a preincanate Jeshua. Not actual flesh and blood like me and you. But not a vision as such but a real object. In the NT you dont see Jeshua as an angel but fully man but His diety ( to a point) concealed.
Many modern day Jewish objections to Jeshua are, they think that believers state the a man became God. But nowhere in the NT does it say this, Jeshua certainly never stated such a thing. And the bible never taught such!
So all I can offer you is read what you read, and make your own decisions on what it says.
If you feel like you would like to see more on this please just say.
Here is the full statement, with English and Hebrew;
>>>>20 Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. כא הִשָּׁמֶר מִפָּנָיו וּשְׁמַע בְּקֹלוֹ, אַל-תַּמֵּר בּוֹ: כִּי לֹא יִשָּׂא לְפִשְׁעֲכֶם, כִּי שְׁמִי בְּקִרְבּוֹ. 21 Take heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; be not rebellious against him; for he will not pardon your transgression; for My name is in him. כב כִּי אִם-שָׁמוֹעַ תִּשְׁמַע, בְּקֹלוֹ, וְעָשִׂיתָ, כֹּל אֲשֶׁר אֲדַבֵּר–וְאָיַבְתִּי, אֶת-אֹיְבֶיךָ, וְצַרְתִּי, אֶת-צֹרְרֶיךָ. 22 But if thou shalt indeed hearken unto his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. כג כִּי-יֵלֵךְ מַלְאָכִי, לְפָנֶיךָ, וֶהֱבִיאֲךָ אֶל-הָאֱמֹרִי וְהַחִתִּי, וְהַפְּרִזִּי וְהַכְּנַעֲנִי הַחִוִּי וְהַיְבוּסִי; וְהִכְחַדְתִּיו. 23 For Mine angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Canaanite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; and I will cut them off. כד לֹא-תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לֵאלֹהֵיהֶם וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם, וְלֹא תַעֲשֶׂה כְּמַעֲשֵׂיהֶם: כִּי הָרֵס תְּהָרְסֵם, וְשַׁבֵּר תְּשַׁבֵּר מַצֵּבֹתֵיהֶם. 24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their doings; but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and break in pieces their pillars. <<<<
The "angel" was of course, Moses.
You are right, Jesus did not see himself as a god. Read Matthew 19:16-19. For almost three centuries, the Nazarene was considered a sect of Judaism. Then, the councils distorted this connection by Paganazing it.
As you have read several times, here, we-Judaism and Christianity, have two different theologies. So calm down, do the best you can in your religion, as we do the best we can, in ours.
Anyway, Paul did prove several things, among them no virgin birth, messiah or godson. He concentrated on other matters, and was more concern about the G-d fearing Gentiles inundating the Jewish nation. Why he told them the three items they were most concerned with if they fully converted to Judaism need not be a concern with them.
Christianity does not have any legitimate connection to Judaism, other than origins.
And it is a sin for a Jew to accept your faith, because this shall violate His commandments to us.
Hi Ok, well Ive never heard of Moses being called an angel before. I do understand the concept of the word connection to ” A messenger”. However keeping the scripture in context and not running away with oneself I do find this interpretation somewhat odd. Im struggling to find anyother verse were God calls Moses His Angel. My servant, prophet etc yes but angel? Not sure Moses would have used the word angel, about himself when writing Exodus. Doesnt seem right.
My name is in him. Jehovhah. That name only belongs to God. Not a prophet.
How did Moses forgive trangressions. I thought only God could forgive sins. Also after Moses had died what was used to atone sins since Moses no longer was able to forgive sins? Not sure the scriptures teach forgiveness by prophets/angels/messengers?
Also, forgive me if im completley wrong here, but v23 states the angel will go before you into the promised land, before the Amorite etc etc. I thought Moses died and was buired in Moab, before Joshua, not Moses came to the promised land. So how did Moses the angel go before Israel if he was dead and buried?
Why would God promise to send someone to guide Israel and then tell him that because he had transgressed he would not enter the land……… Nothing that you say seems to make sense, sorry.
Im sure you can put me right on this.
Ps. What do you mean that Paul also agreed with no virgin birth, no godson concept?
The Hebrew word translated as “angel” means messenger.
Paul, in his writings, did not show knowledge of some of these concepts, as related to a Jewish sect.
Im not disputing the word angel. Im trying to discuss who the messenger is and His character. Could you please answer my concerns/questions regarding Moses being the messenger of the Exodus chapter that we are discusing.
Also I would like you to show me a couple of verses in relation to Paul please.
Did you read the part where Moses is called to do a job? One suggestion; a burning bush which does not consum itself.
There is more, but to anyreader, it is obvious that Moses is told to go and to do. What more does it take to say; “Hey, this man is G-d’s Special Delivery man. Look at what he had the chutzpa to tell Pharoa!”
And, there is more. Enjoy reading.
As for Paul? He told it very upfront that he does not take it as impertinate to lie, for the sake of the Gospel. So if he did accept the vergin birth and hismesiahship, what happened? Like a good politician, he adjusted his message for the audeance. So I suggest you research this, as a man who goes to work for G-d, and delibriatly wuld lie, I really do not want to get to involve with.
Well I think we are both very confused now. Ex ch 3. The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Are you stating that Moses was a burning bush and he appeared to himself???
You will see the words God, Lord, and Angel of the Lord in these passages. All indicating the same person talking to Moses.
The Angel of the Lord is very clearly talking to Moses. Its a two way conversation. How can they be one of the same???
You do well not to answer any questions that I ask you. Im still waiting for a chapter and verse ref Paul.
Moses is made a mesenger of G-d, who sent him. OK?