Sinai Covenant

Sinai Covenant

 

“When you are in distress and all these things have befallen you, at the end of days, you will return to the Lord your God, and hearken to His voice. For the Lord your God is a merciful God, He will not abandon you nor destroy you, and He will not forget the covenant of your forefathers that He swore to them. For inquire now regarding the early days that preceded you, from the day that God created man on the earth, and from on end of the heaven to the other end of the heaven: Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people heard the voice of God speaking to them from the midst of the fire as you have, and survived? Or has any god ever miraculously come to take for himself a nation from the midst of a nation, with challenges, with signs, and with wonders, and with war, and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with greatly awesome deeds, such as everything that the Lord your God, did for you in Egypt before your eyes? You have been shown in order to know that the Lord, He is the God, there is none beside Him. From heaven He caused you to hear His voice in order to teach you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.” (Deuteronomy 4:30-36).

 

The point of this passage is: That the fact that Israel is the only nation that claims to have heard God’s voice from the midst of the fire, and the fact that Israel is the only nation that claims to have experienced anything like the exodus from Egypt, is supposed to encourage the Jew at the end of time that God will not forget the covenant that He made with our forefathers.

 

Why? How do the unique claims of Judaism reassure us that God’s covenant with us still stands? What is the covenant that we share with God?

 

The thrust of the covenant that Israel shares with God is that we are called to be His nation and He declares Himself to be our God (Exodus 6:7, Deuteronomy 29:12, 1Chronicles 17:22). This means that God tied up His own identity with that of Israel. The covenant that Israel shares with God denotes that God will be called: “The God of Israel”, and that Israel will be called: “The people of God”. In other words; a covenant is like a marriage. No longer can we look at the two parties of the covenant as separate entities; the destiny of these two parties is bound up with one another and the very identity of these two parties is bound up with one another. The exodus and Sinai sealed the connection between God and Israel. From that point onward, Israel is God’s bride, and God is Israel’s husband and lover.

 

Israel’s intimacy with God that was displayed by the exodus and the familiarity with God that Israel gained through the Sinai revelation remain unmatched by any other national entity.

 

In these verses in Deuteronomy, God is reassuring Israel that no nation will ever match Israel’s claim of being married to God.

 

The perception of God that Israel acquired at the Sinai revelation is not a peripheral aspect of our covenant with God. Neither is this perception something that fades away with the passage of time. God points to this knowledge of God that we acquired at Sinai as the very heart of our relationship with Him, and God speaks to the last generation and points to this knowledge as a unique possession that sets us apart from every other national entity. This knowledge was not acquired through the handing over of a book, nor was it accomplished through the recital of words. God points to a fiery encounter, collectively experienced, as the means through which He imparted this knowledge to us (Deuteronomy 4:35). God also tells us how it is that this knowledge will be preserved throughout the generations. Again, it is not through the recital of words or through the reading of a book; but through the channel of love and trust that exists between children and their parents (Deuteronomy 4:9, Psalm 78:5).

 

Sinai and exodus were fiery experiences that seared the perception of God into the minds and the hearts of the people who experienced it. They were commanded by God to keep this awareness and intimacy with God alive and to pass it on to their children. Each generation of Jews is enjoined by God to absorb the testimony of exodus and Sinai from their parents, to come to know and love the God of their ancestors and to stand together with their parents in a covenantal relationship with God (Deuteronomy 29:13). The power, the reality and the truth of God embodied in the testimony of exodus and Sinai is so weighty that the last generation of Jews can put their full trust in the God of Sinai on the basis of this testimony (Psalm 78:7). A trust in God that will encourage them to give their lives for Him (Psalm 44:17-23). A trust in God and a love for Him that will carry them through the darkest times (Isaiah 26:13, Micah 7:7,8). A trust and a yearning for God so that when God arises to judge the earth, the children of the exodus and Sinai will cry out with joy: “Behold! This is our God! The God that we hoped for! (Isaiah 25:9). And the connection between God and Israel that was forged at exodus and Sinai runs so deep and is so steadfast, that when God alone is exalted on that day (Isaiah 2:17), His bride, Israel, will be vindicated to the eyes of all the nations (Isaiah 49:23, 62:2. Micah 7:10, Psalm 98:2,3).

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Yisroel C. Blumenthal

 

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58 Responses to Sinai Covenant

  1. Dear Friends;
    We all have heard or read Gentiles make a lot of Jeremiah’s statement of the reneweal of the Covenant, as a new-not related(?) covenant, to support their claims of JC. Not what G-d said. He makes a deal and says it is forever, it is. Does not make other faiths less acceptable, just that they need to look at what we all have in perspective of G-d’s way, not their way.
    Anyway, for the sake of conversation, say that Jeremiah made a statement that precedes the Messiah. Would he still have to fulfill the job-requirements?
    Shalom;
    Yechiel

  2. That is a truly beautiful passage of Scripture that should inspire the deepest of humility, worship, and trust in a G-d who remains the same now as He was then. His Love, despite our failings, is Faithful and True; may we humbly seek His heart as we study and love His Word, knowing that when we do so, He will respond now as He always has in the past to His beloved bride…

  3. Annelise says:

    Rabbi Yisroel, in Exodus 19:9 God said that the people would trust Moses because they heard Him speak with him with their own ears. It implies that these claims of the binding nature of the Torah covenant were so big that they needed to be affirmed by visible, tangible signs of the scale of the plagues, exodus, and personal experience of Sinai.

    If that’s the case, then how can people who never saw these signs believe it? How is the claim of the Jewish people a thing that can’t possibly have emerged in different circumstances? And if it is humanly impossible to objectively be sure about such distant historical events, how can Judaism be true if it tells people to be sure in a way that isn’t possible?

    As a Christian I thought that my experience of relationship with God, my certainty that He does deserve our humility and worship, and the community’s deep experience of Him together (tangible things and personal, spiritual things, growth in His presence) were enough to affirm the context of that faith system… along with the fact that it seemed historically likely. Now I understand that these things aren’t enough to affirm Christianity, and in fact they are experienced by people in other religions in the same way as well.

    Anyway, if Judaism tells people that it is incumbent on them to believe things… not merely to feel they are very likely, but to affirm them as realities… but if it’s actually not possible to state historical facts in that way, then how is that legitimate? How do you think that God gives a commandment to believe something while leaving the evidence vague, so that it is by faith… but anchored in what, exactly, if for the Israelites of Moses’ time the proofs needed to be so clear?

    • Dear Annelise;
      HaShem spoke to us. Nothing vague about this, as witnessed by a huge population, and recorded then.
      Shalom;
      Yechiel

      • Paul says:

        Hello. Thats a good point. Yes a huge population witnessed the events. But only Moses recorded the event. Is that correct?
        x

        • Dear Paul;
          You forgot the Priests! One of their jobs was to record all that happened in their time and area. Much of what the Prophets said is stated that X, the son of Y wrote it down for the Prophet. Moses is also stated as telling someone to record an incident. So although you may accept one person writing what was said and done at a meeting, I think your concern is well taken care of by what was recorded-then. Also, much of what was written after a Prophet said something, happened and the people are reminded that it was told to them.
          Shalom;
          Yechiel

          • Paul summers says:

            Hi, thats great news for me. Rabbi Paul/saul was a great witness.
            Thanks x

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            You are right. More evedence that the Gospel failed the test of varacity. Look at how many times Paul contradicted Jesus, whose testimony was corrupted, as far as St Jerome and later investigators can tell, by mis-quoted manuscripts. We had some problem with this, but also we put most of them to the test, and when something came along, we corrected by what is the most reliable, not the most acceptable.We corrected what was needed to be corrected. Have you?
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • Paul summers says:

            Not sure excatly what you mean by that statement, are you saying paul spoke the truth but jesus did not?
            X

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            According to St. Jerome. no one knows the truth we can see, no knows but G-d!
            There are not known any surviving manuscripts written in the life time of Jesus, and Paul played free, by his statement, with the facts and and concepts he had available. So make of what you have the best you can.
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • Paul summers says:

            So if the works of Jesus were untrue how do you personal know this, the written accounts are then false and corrupt. How then can you give a oipinion on false statements. Thats like going to court with a false statement.

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            You stated; “So if the works of Jesus were untrue how do you personal know this, the written accounts are then false and corrupt. How then can you give a oipinion on false statements. Thats like going to court with a false statement.”
            I am Jewish. I do not have your issues to deal with, I have Hashem.
            He gave us His Torah.
            You can accept what you can use to be as moral and ethical a human being as you know how.
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • Paul summers says:

            Hello. That does explain things I suppose. You decide what parts of the law you see are worth keeping, even though G_d said you will keep them all.
            X

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            You stated the Jewish main opjectioin to post Nazarine faith, which is call Christianity; “You decide what parts of the law you see are worth keeping, even though G_d said you will keep them all.””
            X
            We keep all that is physically posible, including the commandments concerning how G-d is. Why we cannot accept your Pagan Trinity. Now do YOU understand, or are you still on the “Twist them if you can!” speel?
            Before the councils, we were one religioin. The aceptance of the rulings of the Councils ended this. Now, if you accept the rulings of the Councils, fine, but do not try to conjure up where we, who follow HaShem, are any thing other than what He wants us to be. That is a blatine lie. After two thousands years of our doing it His way, I would think more of you would be open to His way. Or you may actually obscure this with your haning on to the None Torah ways you have; as the theology and much of the none Torahic philosophy brought into the Nazarine faith.
            Think, Paul, Your name-sake openly stated that he would lie for the gospel, we are forbidden to do so. So, whom do you believe; G-d, or Saul/Paul?
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Yehuda;
            Almost every religion I know of which has a written record, and some only oral tradition, we are the only ones with a consistant record written con-current with the lifetime, if not the actual events of the persons mentionied in each book. I know there is a G-d, but if you take all the material away from the theological level, you still have the same focus, or lack of. People need to believe in something, even Atheist, so a written record of mom and pop will do for some, even if contradicted by other experience. As one friend of mine stated when I read a verse or two from the Gospel, to up-hold my point of view; “Well! It should not have been written that way!”
            Oy, vey!
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

        • Paul
          – Of-course not! – the events are recorded in teh heart of Israel and preserved through the testimonial observances – and in Israel’s parent-to-child testimony – Deuteronomy 4:9

          • Yehuda says:

            Paul said:
            “Hi, thats great news for me. Rabbi Paul/saul was a great witness.”

            Well, you’re entitled to that opinion.

            But you seem to have missed the significance of an important distinction.. Moses recorded events as having been witnessed and experienced by an entire nation. Yechiel also made the excellent analogy of minutes taken at a meeting. As one who has participated in many such meetings I can tell you that minutes only get placed on file when they pass the test of having been circulated and approved by the participants as accurate.

            By contrast, who was in a position to validate Paul’s account of his encounter with Jesus. on the road to Damascus.

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Yehuda;
            Almost every religion I know of which has a written record, and some only oral tradition, we are the only ones with a consistant record written con-current with the lifetime, if not the actual events of the persons mentionied in each book. I know there is a G-d, but if you take all the material away from the theological level, you still have the same focus, or lack of. People need to believe in something, even Atheist, so a written record of mom and pop will do for some, even if contradicted by other experience. As one friend of mine stated when I read a verse or two from the ospel, to up-hold my point of view; “Well! It should not have been written that way!”
            Oy, vey!
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • Paul says:

            Hi
            Yes I see what you mean. Are saying that the whole OT was witnessed by others also, or are you just saying that only the sinai/commandmants period was witnessed and validated by the nation of Israel. I can see why Israel had to hear it, why??? because it was specifically special for them and only them. A marriage type covenant I suppose.
            However that doesnt mean it has be like that always…………..????
            The trouble with your satement as I see it is that the principle that you are making cannot always run true through scripture. What I mean is not every account that happened can be witnessed by all to see. You have to believe by faith that one persons account as stated must be true. If you cant believe that account then you cannot believe that author/ book/prophet etc. IE, Who witnessed creation or the fall of man? Was creation or the fall ever recorded prior to Moses writing it down?
            Prophets saw visions etc. Who ever witnessed them? Are we to disregard them like you say Pauls account is a lie?

            In regard to the New Testament, look at it this way apart from at least 500 eye witnesses of Jeshua post ressurection, it all comes down to “Do you believe?” The great thing about the NT is that it is not shy about revealing Mans non believing heart. It quite clearly states at Christ accension a few stood by saw Christ accend into Heaven and still they disbelieved. That raises a question. If the Gospels were made up, and full of pro Jesus propaganda etc why put such negagtive lines in the texts? If I wanted to lie to some one about something you would think that it would be very biased and one way. The NT even shows that the disciples even struggled with the concept of “Why not establish the Kingdom now” etc. Jesus on many occasions had to rebuke them and tell them to “read the scriptures again!!) or “why dont you see it”? 3 times the diciples had to be told “Go to Galilee to see the ressurected Christ.
            The point Im making is the Pharisees saw many many wonders. It wasnt a case that they needed other eye witness accounts to validate a account etc. Lazurus even brought back to life. They saw him alive, and all they wanted to do was to have him killed as well as Jesus. They saw it all but refused to accept it. Why?? Because they had they own agendas etc. Not everyone will believe in the truth. Its mans natural sinful way of rejecting the God of Israel. Yes you mention the sinai covenant etc being witnessed by Israel. I ask this, why hear the beautiful words of Adonai one minute, then turn your back on Him, who just delivered you from slavery to play the Harlot with golded images. If I was Jewish I would totally embarresed about it. It just shows that we all have fallen short of grace. Jews and Gentiles. God chose Israel, yes because He loves you, but not because you were/are better than anyone else. He chose you because you as a nation show the world how Gods grace is unlimited through constant disobiediance and the ever present sinful nature of man. And so, God, The Lord God of Israel did something about it, by giving His Only Begotten Son, Jeshua Messiah. Through Israel the saviour. Thats the only way. Through your rejection of Him is my only acceptance by Him. A gentile saved by the God Of Israel.
            x

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul and other Christians;
            I, as a Torah Centered Jew, also have some things on Faith.
            I have faith that what G-d said is true.
            I have faith that what contradicts G-d is not true.
            I have faith that the description of Moshiac is true.
            I have faith that what contradicts His description of Moshiac is false.
            I read the Gospel.
            It is false.
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

        • peterusa123 says:

          Paul says:
          “Hello. Thats a good point. Yes a huge population witnessed the events. But only Moses recorded the event. Is that correct?”
          My response
          Paul you bring up an interesting issue. There is no proof to anyone today that Moses received the Bible. So Paul this is exactly what I say to these evil missionaries first you have to prove your cult before you export it. That is why Jews don’t go around missionizing because they cant prove it to any one else. However what they could do as the Torah writes be a light to the nations by showing themselves as examples of the followers of the truth. I can assure you I can show that christians are no examples to follow any truth.

          By the way that is why I say no one can lose a debate to a christian since no christian can prove his cult is true. All they say is well their man god said he was a god so it must be true. In that case they have to believe muhamed was a prophet since he said so so it must be true. If muhamed was lying why cant the chrisitan man god be lying.

          Well of course they claim the christian man god performed miracles. I say so did mohamed’s followers claim he did miracles even maybe more than their man god. I will prove here your man god was false.

          “AN EVIL AND ADULTEROUS GENERATION SEEKETH AFTER A SIGN; AND THERE SHALL NO SIGN (no miracle) BE GIVEN TO IT, BUT THE SIGN (miracle) OF THE PROPHET JONAH: FOR AS JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE WHALE’S BELLY; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.” (Matthew 12:39-40).

          These verses claim that your false man god said he would arise in three days. Tell me why weren’t there these 500 or thousands of followers camped outside his grave waiting for him to resurrect. Why did they need guards so no one should steal him ha ha ha he is supposed to come and show every one he beat them and is alive. Also it is funny how christians constantly claim the Jews were to stubborn to believe him. This is a big lie the pagan Romans also didn’t believe him. Tell me some thing Paul what did the pagan Romans see in your false man god 300 years later that they didn’t see when he was around. I will tell you the pagan Romans saw a false god that you christians made up for 300 years that is why they converted.

          Paul says:
          “That raises a question. If the Gospels were made up, and full of pro Jesus propaganda etc why put such negagtive lines in the texts? If I wanted to lie to some one about something you would think that it would be very biased and one way.”
          My response
          Paul your false god did not bring any one alive let alone himself and he did not perform one miracle some guys made that up. You ask why would your book write negative things if they were making it up. Actually your book does not write any negative things about your false god so you just admitted that it may be untrue in that case. Again we go back to mohamed’s book christians call him a pedophile and all kinds of names if their book were lies they wouldn’t write anything negative about Mohamed either.

          • Paul says:

            Hello
            Well you raise an intresting fact. The first is this. The owner/Author of this blog has always (And rightly) insistered that all comments are answered in a respectful, civililised, doctrinal, and in a adult way. Just reading your outburst comment there is quite sad. However you do have the right to say what you want, its just a shame the you feel like you have to. I wonder why people react the way they do when aparantly they have the truth, and what they should be doing is explaining the truth.
            Secondly its a shame also that the Author hasnt spoken to you also. (A light to the nations you say?)
            Anyway onwards and upwards;
            Yes you are correct in quoting Jeshua ” three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”
            The question you should be asking is this;

            ” Why put guards on an entrance to a tomb” ??

            You are right there were no bystanders waiting. Yes (Ive made this point earlier) no one could quite get their head around the fact that Jeshua would be ressurected. They simple did not understand Him, they lacked the faith that they should have had, and secondly they were affraid of reprisals. Its thats simple. Put it this way………….. As soon as they saw Him ressurected one of the first things they asked Him was “Is now the time for you to establish the Kingdom” “No” was the answer. “I still need to ascend then I will come back”. So you see their theology was correct but their application was wrong.

            So why put gaurds on the entrance? To steal His body and sell a story of a ressurected man. The disciples didnt even understand the basics of a Jeshua ressurection. So Why hide in fear if you ACTUALLY KNOW He will be ressurected? Doesnt make sense. You would think as you say why not have a vigil of byestanders waiting to show all, the Pharisees etc the truth. Having no one there waiting proves my point. No faith in what Jeshua had previoulsy said. As far as the disciples thought it was all over and they were next for the chop!

            The gaurds you will see fell asleep while on duty. If this was made known to there centurion boss they would have been killed or flogged. So They went in secret to the priests and told them that they had dozed off. Not knowing what had happened to Jeshua they came up with the story, lets say the disciples stole the body while you slept. They were paid off by the priests and everything was ushered up. Its funny if they were asleep how did they know it was the disciples who stole the body. And why didnt the preists do anything about the sleeping gaurds, ie complain to the romans.

            Jeshua was quite dead when they put Him into the tomb. Jeshua was quite dead as Jonah was for three days and three nights. But on the third day Jeshua was alive (eternal life) and showing Himself to His brethren.

            When you read the account of Jeshua raising Lazurus from the dead, you see an ironic thing. The very person who raised Lazurus from the dead clearly has the power of God over life and death. Why try and kill someone who has the power over death, pretty pointless and secondly you start to see the mind set of the Pharisees. “Lets also kill Lazurus who has been raised from the dead.”……………. Hang on, whats Lazurus ever done to receive such a punishment. Its not his fault that he died and then was raised from the dead!!!

            I say the Pharisses saw a ressurected Lazurus but refused to accept anything as a Miracle from God Himself if it meant there own corrupt and comfortable lifes being turned upside down.

            So why did they put a Roman Gaurd by the tomb???

            1 Cor 15 v3
            For I delivered to you first of all that which I also recieved; that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

            Thanks x

    • Annelise
      Excellent question. The Scriptures point to the uniqueness of the testimony – note the words “or has it ever been heard” in Deuteronomy 4:32 – the fact that this testimony has not been duplicated itself is a powerful argument – but the key is taht Israel is enjoined by God to preserve the impact of these events through the testimonial observances – these observances were designed by God so that the power of these events can be transmitted through the generations and that the later generations can feel their weight and anchor their faith in the reality that they find in the heart of Israel
      https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/the-exodus-versus-the-resurrection/
      https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/explaining-judaism-to-a-teenager/

  4. Yehuda says:

    Paul said:

    “Yes I see what you mean. Are saying that the whole OT was witnessed by others also, or are you just saying that only the sinai/commandmants period was witnessed and validated by the nation of Israel”?.

    and

    “The trouble with your statement as I see it is that the principle that you are making cannot always run true through scripture. What I mean is not every account that happened can be witnessed by all to see….Who witnessed creation or the fall of man? Was creation or the fall ever recorded prior to Moses writing it down? Prophets saw visions etc. Who ever witnessed them? Are we to disregard them like you say Pauls account is a lie? ”

    Briefly, here is the point.

    No I don’t claim that every biblical event was witnessed by the entire Jewish nation. However as Rabbi B has pointed out repeatedly, the key formative events that define what Jews see as their obligation in life were witnessed by all. The exodus forged us as a nations and Sinai made clear beyond a shadow of a doubt what we are to believe and what we are to do. In fact, God saw fit to make this very point in the Torah. Exodus 19:9 “And the LORD said unto Moses: ‘Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.’ God made a point of saying that by appearing to the nation as a whole and having them see God speak to Moses will establish Moses’ credibility for all time. (God repeats the significance of the fact the Sinai was a nationwide event in several other verses as well).Nothing in the NT can attach itself to this standard and that includes some of most critical events in Christian theology. How much of Christian doctrine is based on the writings of Paul? Quite a bit -including his abrogation of the Law of Moses. And how much credibility can we assign to Paul’s authority based on his encounter with Jesus? Do the math..

    As for the other Jewish prophets, you make a valid point about their credibility relative to Moses. However bear in mind that – again as Rabbi B. has pointed out many times – the only prophets the the Jewish people accepted as true and whose words were preserved for posterity were those who reinforced the message of Moses and the obligations of the Torah. The Jewish people rejected all those who abrogated the Law of Moses – and such was Saul/Paul.

    Lastly, as to your reference to the NT claim of 500 witnesses to the resurrection. Well…I don’t know is 500 alot? It’s not an especially robust claim for an event claiming to alter the fate of the Jewish people and the whole world. Are there contemporary Christians who claim to be the descendents of those 500 people? That would be interesting. I don’t know if you are a fan of NBA Basketball but Wilt Chamberlain is famous for (among other things) having scored 100 point in a single game in 1962 against the NY Knicks. Many stories about the game over the years talk about the tens of thousands of people who recalled being at the game. In fact Chamberlain himself frequently spoke of how people would come over to him and tell him they were at Madison Square Garden (where the Knicks played) at the famous 100 point game.

    Here’s the problem. The game was played in the Hershey Sports Arena in Hershey, Pennsylvania and was attended by about 4,000 people. And this is an event that took place within our lifetimes.

    • Paul summers says:

      so are saying that the christian hasnt had any effect on Jewish history. Thats good news really. Now you can stop blaming the christians for persecution.
      If the scriptures had stated “1” person only witnessed the risen Messiah you would have said no way only 1 witness. Under Torah you need x amount etc. But no even 500 isnt enough! Really!!??
      I still dont see why you feel the need to compare the two events anyway. The amount of people witnessing an event doesnt make the event more real and more aactuall. I wonder why then did the whole nation witness the covenant and then payed thanks by playing the harlot?
      When Messiah was ressurected the disciples did at least proclaim His Name and not bow down to a golden calf. Or did I miss read that?
      X

      • hyechiel says:

        Dear Paul;
        How many man-gods had a divine father, family had to get out of Dodge-fast, born on December 25, resuracted and became a god, themselves?
        So a repeat of Pagan just does not get it.
        As for us bringing the Torah around to convert others? We did for a while, but persecutioin from the competition slowed this down.
        As foi golden calves? Old habits die hard. Your bringing this up reminded me of something very imporant; the G-dfearing Gentiles did not want to convert to Judaism, because of three items; Kosher, Marriage Code and Cleaniness Code. Paul told them one thing true; as long as they did not want to convert to Judaism, no matter. Just accept the Noahide code and all OK. They used diffferent words, but look up the concepts (Google each) and see what you learn as far as Jews or Gentiles having to do X.
        Basically, you have a lot to learn. What got some missionaries upset with me was that I know the Gospels well enough to support what I said, an used the words of Jesus to show that I am right. One minister left in a huff, and the next Sunday,I saw him and went to him to wish him a good day. You should have seen the look in his eyes! He may have thoiught I was going to do an opperation?
        Anyway, one more questioin, then I shall be through talking to you; why is it that us, whose culture it is, are being constantly told by illegal allians (you) that we do not know our culture, faith or what G-d said to us? Why are you all constantly contradicting G-d?
        Shalom;
        Yechiel (name = Living G-d))

        • Now, first of all, I do not personally want to be involved at all in the conversation at hand (which doesn’t seem to me to be a healthy or pleasant tone of conversation), but I did simply want to point out one thing that relates to a much earlier comment: “Your name-sake openly stated that he would lie for the gospel, we are forbidden to do so.” (I’m not able to post up there, so I’m posting my thought here.)

          G-d did definitely say to not bear false witness against another, and I had always assumed the implication there (especially because G-d is indeed a G-d of Holiness and Complete Truth) was that people should never lie, period. Because of that, I was surprised to one day note in my readings that in fact several men of G-d did tell lies. The first time I remember thinking about it was in reading 1 Samuel 16 — G-d told him to say he was going to Bethlehem to make an offering, even though in fact he was also going to anoint the next king. Not that the offering was a lie, of course, but it seemed to me that to pretend one was only going to make a sacrifice when there was something deeper wasn’t the whole truth (although, of course, G-d, who is all-knowing, knows when an issue we are worried about isn’t even going to happen, and He does not lie).

          However, as I pondered that, I then noted several other instances in which godly men DID actually lie: In Genesis 12, 20 and 26, Abraham and Isaac lied about their wife, or told a half-truth, at least, deceiving the people in whose land they traveled. In Joshua 2, we also see Rahab lie about where the spies have gone, and there are several other instances of deceit in similar circumstances.

          The only reason I wanted to mention this is because I found it interested; it is something I have had to consider, pray about, and seek what the meaning is there. I trust fully in G-d, and I know He is Good and Righteous, so I thought back on the verses regarding false witness and what exactly He meant by that, in seeking what was happening in these other situations. My understanding of it is that in condemning false witness, G-d was particularly referring to evil intentions, or a heart to hurt one’s neighbor through lies, and I have continued to believe that the more I study His Word. For example, in many Psalms, the deceit and lies that are condemned are associated with casting a slur on one’s neighbor or testifying falsely to his hurt. This is not to say that I believe G-d condones lying — certainly not — but I have come to believe that G-d truly looks at the heart, even in situations in which lies are told.

          Another reason I considered this is that I’ve read several true accounts written about the Holocaust — some by non-Christians and others by Christians who also suffered from the evil there, and who were willing to put their own lives at risk to hide their Jewish neighbors because they knew that what was being done to them was horrible and inhumane (to put it mildly). I recall one account in which the person hid his friends in a trapdoor under the table but covered it very, very well. When the soldiers broke into his house and demanded of him whether he had hidden any Jews there, he believed he should not tell a lie and said, “Yes, under my table.” The soldiers lifted the tablecloth and, seeing nothing there, thought he was crazy and left (the trapdoor was unseen). The Jews this man was helping did escape, and their lives were spared. This particular man said that he had felt he could not lie and trusted that if he told the truth, G-d would take care of the situation.

          In another account, however, a family was hiding their Jewish neighbors and helping them to escape (they did this regularly) and had no problem with lying when asked if they were hiding any Jews. From their perspective, they had two options: give up fellow humans to a torture beyond imagination, or lie to protect them. They felt G-d would definitely prefer that they lie to protect their fellow humans.

          I’ve thought about both situations. I understand both perspectives, and perhaps G-d in His mercy did ensure that the man who trusted that G-d would protect him and those he was hiding from harm if he told the truth was rewarded for this trust in G-d’s power. But for myself, I would tend to go the other way. If I were well aware that fellow humans — any fellow humans, of any belief — would be tortured and murdered unjustly if they were discovered, I would have no problem at all telling any number of lies to protect them.

          I just wanted to mention that because that particular comment above reminded me of that whole issue again. I had studied it out rather thoroughly at one time, especially after reading a number of historical accounts of very difficult situations.

          Shalom

          • P.S. This is not to imply that I approve of lying. I simply think that one must seek G-d’s heart in terrible situations such as the ones I mentioned above. Most of the time lies are quite ungodly and for selfish reasons — even those lies that are supposedly “being kind” (i.e., lies of flattery, rather than speaking the truth) — because people who tell them generally want to be thought well of, and so forth, caring more about what other humans think of them than about what G-d says is true and right.

            But I am not referring to that kind of thing; I am referring to cases in which there is a TRUE danger or torture, a life-or-death situation. In such cases, if a person were to “tell the truth” with a heart of malice toward his neighbor, I believe G-d would view that much worse than if that person were to lie to protect the neighbor from wrongful torture and death.

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Freedom;
            I am not a paragrime of virtue, but I abide by these two things, the fact I am, by birth, Jewish, and that I abide by the highest standard of veracity. Now, when it comes to G-d said; man said, I go with G-d. When my faith is attacked even “lovenly” because I am deemed doom due to my not accepting a human as my god, and I am in a conversation where it was seen as one’s acceptance was not an issue, but becomes one, I have a responsibility to uphold what I know to be true. I respect all faiths, but face it, G-d told us what He wants, and the Gospel has many conrtadictions.
            It is not who is speaking the truth, We all know this. But which direction I shall take.
            Since Roman times, there has been issues between us and those who go with the Roman concept. Rome had this problem when we rebelled in the first and the 3rd centuries, so the take care of the Jew doctrain settled in. Why the Nazarines who survived the period of the Councils had to accept the Roman ideal, or join their fellow in the grave.
            Jews, scattered as we were, could not so easily be wiped out, so merging us with the Christian faith was an option they used, but even this gave way to violence when we proved to entrenched in His way. Still does. And this is part of the background we face. Some Christians accept G-d and His way, some think they are in charge and that we stand in their way.
            Could this be why so much resources are thrown into the anti-Jewish.anti-Semitic fold. Protocols of Zion and Talmudic forgeries are only an eyelash of the battle we have each day, even though most Christians oppose it, and many have genualy sided with us. Not to mention the thousands each year who convert to Judaism.
            Converting Jews need missionaries, Chriatians converting to Judaism, many meet their first Jewish clergy after they made and studied on their decision.
            Stop the lies and evil against us, much of the negativity could be turned around. I, personally would love this, and why I am on the blogs I am on.
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • Hyechiel,
            I am certain that many Christians (those who truly seek G-d’s heart, read His Word, and seek to abide in His ways) would agree with you with regard to the evil done against Jews. On the other hand, there are also many, many self-righteous Christians who really know little at all about G-d’s Word or G-d Himself and merely hold to a “faith” to view themselves virtuous, jumping on the bandwagon, so to speak, committing great evils against others. For those, I wonder if they have ever read the verses in the Christian Bible, which they claim to believe, in which Jesus said that many will one day stand there and claim to have done great works in the name of Jesus, and that the reply would be “Depart, evil ones, I never knew you.” It is interesting there what is specifically mentioned in the passage is not just that these people would claim to know G-d but specifically Jesus. And that the reply would imply that any “true knowing” had only ever been in their imagination, not in their hearts at all, ever.

            In any case, I feel there is much too much hatred and self-righteousness among those who claim to know G-d. It is an abomination that atrocities be committed in the name of “G-d” and that anyone actually deceive themselves into thinking they are doing a work of G-d. Truly hideous. If they read the Bible at all, they would be aware that G-d said those who blessed Israel would be blessed, and those who cursed her would be cursed.

            There are of course many Christians who have suffered as well — in the early days, when the Christians WERE the Jews (which was where Christianity began), they, too, were persecuted greatly for their faith. And I must also say that in the more recent years, it has been the Christian nations that have reached out to help the Jewish communities to find a home and to help them defend themselves. Nonetheless, that, too, seems to be going to the wayside, despite the protests by myself and many, many other Americans. I have heard stories twisted, wrong called “right,” and evil called “good,” with the enemies of Israel made to look as though they are harmless. I myself have engaged in long debates with those who seem to hate Israel — because as long as I am an American and as long as America is a country of free speech, I will not stand by and see military pages and blogs, for example, be overrun by individuals getting on those blogs and seeking to monopolize them with comments of hatred and twisted stories (by those who pretend things that are not true and seek harm for Israel) without at least making my best effort to expose the lies.

            That said, I do understand and empathize with you regarding the evil that Israelis have suffered. I do what I can, but there is really very little I can do; I am not a leader of any kind. I do seek to promote humility and brokenness (He will not despise a crushed and broken heart) in a wholehearted searching of Scripture to know and love G-d more intimately through His Word — because ultimately, He is the Sole Hope of Israel and of any human who truly and humbly seeks Him. He has already described Israel’s condition of humility and acknowledgment of sin that will necessarily be present at the time of her future restoration, and I hope that glorious restoration happens in my lifetime.

            Shalom.

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Freedom;
            Now days, it seems as if many people are Isrel, in the since that so much suffering is not only done, but condoned in the name of the country. Syria as one example, and there are others. I read an e-mail where a journalist wrote up of a girl raped by her countries soldiers (Somalia) and the “government” used her article to justify jailing another journalist and the rape victim she wrote about.
            G-d gave us free will. He cannot then in the next breath do what He wants, and you or I obey. He gived us a set of rules of how to use our freewill, and the consecuences if we mis-use it.
            We have to get to know-not G-d, who is unknowlidble, – but His way. Or more pain shall folow.
            I blog not to change a belief, but pray that those who read our posts are reminded to follow His way and to help make this world like it should be-by His way.
            Thank you for you post. I look for more like yours, and action, as in how people vote and share what they have, and how we talk about each other.

      • Yehuda says:

        I’m always amused at the tendency Christians have to respond to the substantive point about the inescapable weight that the Torah puts on significance of the national revelation at Sinai by pointing out that the Jews immediately turned around and sinned with the golden calf.

        As if that has any bearing on the issue at hand.

        I’ve heard this dodge many times before, Paul, It hasn’t gotten any more impressive.

        And now we also see the true Christian love rearing its head from your sarcasm and your use of terms like Harlot.. If that’s all you have left to offer on this topic. Adios.

        Oh, and try to remember, its the Christians trying to convert the Jews not the other way around. You have the burden of proof.

        Peace.

        • Paul summers says:

          Hello. Ok so the only thing that I can see to ask is “what is the significance” of the golden calf? What did it actually mean? The word harlot was used because G_d uses it in scripture. It wasnt my personal slant on Israel. So why not quote it?
          One often miss calculation about Christ is; Jews think they are being converted from being a Jew if they believe in Him. Well understandbly that is a fear, especially from a terrible church history. However being converted is impossible. Jews are jews and gentiles are gentiles. If a jew accepts Jeshua as Messiah he or she remains Jewish. Ethnic identity does not change. Ask any jewish believer. Its not and never was a case of converting. Its a case of believing in a God.
          God promised Abraham that world,nations will be blessed through his seed. The bible teaches this; The Jews, His people. Loved and seperate, Gods name revealed through the nation . The nation restored through and at His second advent. The church, which is Jew and gentile who believe in Him. And jews retain all there jewishness. …… Why would a jew stop wanting to be a jew? No reason,, you wouldnt and cant.
          Im not anti Israel or antisemetic, im actually your friend. If you look back through your response you will see that only harsh words comes from your side of the fence.

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            You stated; If a jew accepts Jeshua as Messiah he or she remains Jewish. Ethnic identity does not change. Ask any jewish believer. Its not and never was a case of converting. Its a case of believing in a God.

            A Jew who accepts a foriegn government as to rule over him is going to loose his citizenship in the Jewish nation and faith, just as if a person is an American, accepts citizenship in North Korea looses his American citizenship.

            Foriegn Government? Yes, because the one He told us to accept, and the one you have are grossly different; One none confusing G-d or three ???
            Jews loyal to G-d stay with the One.
            That’s all.

            Shalom;
            Yechiel
            By the way, do you think you have any authority to tell us what is or what is not true? Or, is it G-d who has that authority?
            Or, are you trying to pull some wool over our eyes?
            G-d said, i believe it, and that is all.

          • Paul says:

            Hi,
            Yes you have to be loyal by Gov law when one abides in a country of resisdence. Jesus pointed this out when asked about temple tax.

            You still do not stop being Jewish though. Believing Jews or Athiest Jews still dont stop/lose there ethnic bitrh origins. If that was the case Jews wouldnt excist anymore because through history jews have lived all over the world and do not follow the law at all. Go to Tel-aviv and see all those new age young jews following all sorts of new things and ideas. They are still jews.
            Jews are descended from there parents, parents, parents etc.

            Im amazed you actually think this. After all what jews have gone through in history and how God has kept jews seperate, you state that now jews lose there jewishness if they dont follow the Law. That means jews who reject God become non Jews?
            Before the Law was given does that mean that a race of people excisted but were called by another name?
            And finally the Israelites were in Egypt for over 400 yrs, does that mean they were not Israelites but Egyptians that were in the exodus.
            I always thought that Jews were a race of people not a faith. Judasism is a faith not a race.
            Thanks
            x

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            To place what you said in perspective; I am a Levite. SAmmy Davis Jr. was a convert. Who was more Jewish? No one; Mr. Davis was as Jewish as I. The slaves were not all Hebrews (a mixed multitude came out with us) and the core were decended from a family. They were all nations, not a race.
            An Atheist born Jewish is Jewish, so we are not just or only a religion.
            Judaism is the name of the religion of the Jewish people, but not all born Jews practice a religion, just like not all born Americans vote. But, they are still as American as you or I.
            Jewish Law, not Gentile ignorance, determines who is what within the Jewish fold. So when someone makes statements like you did, it is like someone Chines saying all Americans are>>>
            So once again I ask you to avoid embarrasement, and study the facts before you post. Judaism is not a better religion than Christianity, but Judaism is a separate religion from Christianity.
            Jews are not anymore saved than Christians; if you follow the concepts of you religion, you are as saved as any Hinbu, Buddest, or Shento, as well as any Jew. So you do not have to be Jewish to be saved; just do what you should.
            Remember what G-d told Abraham; “Those who curse you, I shall curse, HE WHO curse you, I shall curse HIM!” Emphasise on singular for one who curse, so be careful, your conversation is really between you and HaShem, not you and us.
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • Paul says:

            Ok, well thats one way to reply to a question. One thing I need to know is this. Are you saying that there is a distinctive difference between a Hebrew, a Israelite, a Jew, and a son of Abraham/David. Or are all these the same nationals but with just different titles?
            Thanks x

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            G-d already decided on this issue. Next question?
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

          • Paul says:

            Yes my next question is can you please answer my question. It wasnt a trick question.
            x

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear Paul;
            If you are serious, then go to the websites where these questions are answered. You come across as playing games, to rty and make your supposed adversary look silly.
            No one here is you adversary; we all want and have shown a desire to learn of each other, and to share. But when I answer a questioin and I am tiold I have not, I am back with another person who played this game with me. i was patient until he refused to apoligize for some – I will say irresponsible words. So i have made it a point to not communicate with him anymore.
            But, if you need a good answer here for your questions, I found it, from a fine Christian person.
            >>> naaria commented on The Veil.

            in response to hyechiel:

            Dear naaria; On the way Christians who join MJ congregatioins are treated? Maturity and education is taking care of this issue, as many turn to Torah as a true foundation for their lives. Why thousands find G-d as Noahide and convertees to Judaism. Shalom Yechiel

            That was part of my comment to bring up or remind others of their “intra-faith” conflicts and to be less judgmental of those outside of their faith community. You know that if there are thousands of different denominations, you can suspect there are some fundamental problems that are largely not addressed by the churches or their leaders. It is not as simple as some people try to make it. There is often an over-simplification of or a distorted view of the history of the church or of the NT text as well. When you hear someone in your family or workplace or place of worship say “I was once Catholic, but now I’m Christian”, you got to wonder “where their head is at”. Or, when they say “those people (many different types of “believers” or religious” people) aren’t or weren’t “real Christians”, you have to ask them what their definition of a “real Christian” is. Usually both sides of the issue will tell you they are the “real Christians”, they are of the “true church”, they are the truly the “humble, Godly believers”. When you show them where they are similar, while they are showing you “how they differ”, they usually wind up insulting you and calling you a “liar” although you show them facts or “of the devil” when you ask them “where is their love” or “why can’t you get along with your brothers & sisters in the Lord”? “”. I have seen & know why some Christians have “left the church” and become MJ’s to “deepen their relationship with Jesus-Yeshua”. And I know some of the reasons they get frustrated. I heard Sunday after Sunday the” real reasons” why we were studying the Hebraic Roots of the church and what the real Israel will look like in the future. Don’t get me wrong, I am part of inter-faith activities or community as well. My former pastor & teacher is well respected and loved by several in the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis in the U.S. and in Israel.

            But, if some Christians can believe sincerely that other “sincere, humble, & religious Christians” are “of the devil” or that MJ’s can be “more than quite” critical of other MJ’s because of the “veil”, then you might begin to understand how some have viewed “the veil over of the eyes” of those who do not believe in Yeshua-Jesus, in particular those Jews who are quite familiar with the NT and now see even less reason to convert than before when they were simply just ignorant. Respect for the faith of others starts with education and from within.
            <<<
            Paul, by the way, I am confused about one item some Chriwtians repeatidly put out; are Catholica Christian? And if so, as Christian as any Protestant, or are you of a different religion than these Christians who are governed by the Papacy? Or,as Texas can legally succeed from the Union (as well as 4 other states), as Texans Americans?
            I hope you see where your games are taking this convrsation. I have more rspect for all than that, so I am going to give you time to re-aligned your scope and to converse in a more mature and respectful way. So I shall not answer your questioins until I am sure yours' are – well – Christian.
            Shalom;
            Yechiel
            PS; Naaria; Toda Me'od for a wonderful post. You may have helped many to become closer to G-d.

          • Paul says:

            No games. Just questions which no one is able is answer. I will off course answer yours. Otherwise whats the point of being here.

            The RC, protestant church etc are churches which stand and confess there faith in Jesus Christ. Adding to the mix also as you are aware there are dozens and dozens of other churches that confess Christ Jesus. Not all churches that “claim to believe in Christ” do actually believe.
            Unfortunatley not all these churches contain the true church. You of course will ask, whats consitutes the true church? Well the true church are simple Jew and gentiles who believe (born again) in Jesus Christ AS PER the scriptures teach and not as man teaches or as the church sets its own agendas
            I have no aliegance with Rome, the Church of England etc. The charasmatic church the free church the church of this the church of that etc. These are just labels and sadly, some, not all, a false money making buisnesses in a broken world.
            The NT teaches that Christ is the head of the church, me as a believer am a part of the body.
            If you read Mathew Ch 13 Jeshua calls it the Mystery of the Kingdom. Basically 9 parables type messages about the christedom. Wheat and tares growing up together. Dirty birds nesting in the branches etc. False teaches false prophets etc all claiming to know God in the name of Christ. It is a minefield of different views of this and that. All I say is to any believer or non believer is read what it says in the OT and NT and take it from there. God will always show you the truth if you are willing to see it, as He wishes no man to perish.

            You off course will not believe anything any church has to say about Christ Jesus. Thats fine.One day we will all be judged by the God of Israel.

            x

          • hyechiel says:

            Dear friends;
            Judge not, that ye be not judge. Remember that snipit? I find Christianity as good a faith as all others. Now, as to anyone who leaves Judaism for an other faith; he left. That’s all, until he repents. As for the idea that there are Jesus accepting sects which you do not accept as Christian? As MJs do a lot of compromising, they shold be at the top of your list, and known as an affront to the memory of Jeses and his friends to give them any support.
            As long as you support these sects, you sin by rejecting honest sects of Christians.
            Jews and Hindus have sign several commetments to work together for what is good for humanity. It would be a good start for all Christian sects to sign a similar commetment, showing some honesty on your part.
            Otherwise, whom do you think ou are fooling? When the Lebbanies Christians had to be saved by Israeli forces, becuse they are the “wrong kind of Christian!”, you brock whatever connection you have with G-d, except for those who believe and practice what He said. Meantime, many lives could have been saved if world Christiaity had respected themselves enough to do what was required.
            Failure does ot mean the end. Learn from it, grow, and someday you may do as well following what Jesus taought, as rligious Jews do; G-d’s Torah.
            Shalom;
            Yechiel

  5. Yehuda says:

    Paul,

    I never said the Golden Calf has no significance. It’s just that what I thought we were discussing was the significance that the Torah itself places on credibility of Sinai and National Revelation and how, by contrast, the NT makes no such claims for its key revelations.

    It was at that point that YOU brought up the golden calf and I responded by saying that you were changing the subject. Of course the golden calf has great significance, but that’s another topic.

    As for conversion, to be honest I’m not interested in word games. Let me ask you a question, if you were approached by a Mormon who proceeded to explain why you as a christian should accept his belief system and that in doing so, you would not be abandoning your faith, you would actually be fulfilling it, how would you respond?. You could probably then take your response, do a search and replace in which you substitute “Christianity” for “Mormonism” and “Judaism” for “Christianity” and you would probably get a pretty good idea of how we feel.

    And I don’t think I’ve been harsh. You really need to remember that “anti-missionary” activity exist only in response to missionary activity. The christian tendency to see it as harsh is selfish and one-sided. If you are going to enjoin us to abandon our belief system (no matter how well-intentioned you consider yourself to be) you have to grant us the right to defend it. I again ask you to consider your reaction to the hypothetical Mormon missionary.

    • hyechiel says:

      Dear Yehuda;
      Not only the right to defend, also the responsibility to uphold and to live by what He told us.
      He is the sovierng of all, so how can a G-d accepting gentile even think of asking a Jew to abandon his faith. i say those who do do believe in a god; themselves.
      Shalom;
      Yechiel

  6. peterusa123 says:

    It’s amazing how christians of all people bring up the Golden calf incident. A christian brought this up in my pal talk room and I said you of all people who claim your god can become anything he wants to even as a man he certainly than can take a form of a Golden calf. I asked him how does he know that his god didn’t come in the form of a golden calf. His answer was well did the Golden calf say he was a god I said sure he said. So he said ok and shut up.

    • Paul says:

      Hi
      Well I cannot speak on the behalf of your friend as he is not here to defend the comment. To be honest not quite sure he understood the whole point?
      With regard to the golden calf, it did occur to me that reading the incident one might see it as this; the golded calf was seen as the God of Israel, ie lets worship that image thinking it is Adonai, because Moses has been away for such a long period, so they took the matter into their own hands. Is this what you mean?
      Because I have always read it as the calf was worshipped as another totally different god.

      Thanks x

      • peterusa123 says:

        Paul says:
        Because I have always read it as the calf was worshipped as another totally different god
        My response
        You are wrong it was not a totaly different G-D and it was not even a god they wanted to worship
        If you read the verse as you even said they wanted to replace Moses who even G-D said I will make you a god to pharoe.
        Exodus Chapter 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him: ‘Up, make us a god who shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.’

        In this verse below it says and they said who is they? maybe they were christiains who love to worship anything but the true creator. Anyways they said this is your god O Israel these christians were trying to get the Jews to follow a false god by telling them this is the same god that took you out of egypt and it was not a replacement for Moses it is your god who will lead you now in the form of a calf. We see some Jews were susceptible and succumbed to this. We see what happened to them later in the verses, they got killed. Thank G-D later on about 1,300 years later when the christians said oh these Jews wont fall for an animal god again so now we will make a man a god and hope to fool them into worshiping him. However Jews were not fooled this time around like before. I know you will say well the first ones to make this up were Jews I say none of them were Jews I would like any Jew to give me any evidence that matthew, johnny, luke or all the other writers of this nonsense were Jews or even if some Jews were involved with you christians they were not more than a handful that succumbed to this greatest lie in history.

        Exodus Chapter 32:4 And he received it at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it a molten calf; and they said: ‘This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

        Another comment, you wrote somewhere about Tel Aviv yes Jews again learned from you christians. christians go to the choiche on Sunday and from Monday to Saturday commit murder, rape, robbery, fornication etc. That is why G-D told the Israelites to kill all the idol worshipers in Israel so they wont learn from them. However with the internet and mass media they can learn even if they are far away.

        • hyechiel says:

          Dear Friends;
          We seemed to have gottten caught up in a word most here do ot even know how to translate; ‘el – the plural is ‘elomim. In English it means one who has a ower; judge, king, prophet. So if you understand the Hebrew, and do not re-translate it, you have -d shall have a power (one) to replace Moses.
          Most of the inter-religious discussion, where it is of based, is due to mis-translatioins. Be careful to know and to do.
          A good example is where Balaam stood as an Adversary…
          Hebrew for adversary is Satan, but Balaam was never anything but human.
          Best bet is for us to stick to learning about our own faiths, and to do what G-d wants us to do.
          Shalom;
          Yechiel

        • Paul says:

          Woh! Ok well thats a colourful and somewhat exotic explanation of events. If you do know of any rapes, murders robberies etc which are being committed by” christians” you should tell the police asap. As a law abiding citizen it is your duty.
          x

          • peterusa123 says:

            Paul says:
            Woh! Ok well thats a colourful and somewhat exotic explanation of events. If you do know of any rapes, murders robberies etc which are being committed by” christians” you should tell the police asap. As a law abiding citizen it is your duty.
            My response.
            If you think this is colourful and somewhat exotic explantion of events you should hear the christians in my chat room explain events.

            You think I’m making it up about “any rapes, murders robberies etc which are being committed by” christians” ask any christian and they will tell you that America is a christian country I bet brown will tell you that every one in America is a christian except for those stubborn Jews. Tell me something if most Americans are chrisitan who is committing all these crimes. Of course if you hear the colourful and somewhat exotic explantion of christiains in the chat room it is the 5 or 6 million Jews that are committing all these crimes.

            Crime in America by Kerby Anderson

            http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/crime.html

            In America, the crime clock continues to click: one murder every 22 minutes, one rape every 5 minutes, one robbery every 49 seconds, and one burglary every 10 seconds. And the cost of crime continues to mount: $78 billion for the criminal justice system, $64 billion for private protection, $202 billion in loss of life and work, $120 billion in crimes against business, $60 billion in stolen goods and fraud, $40 billion from drug abuse, and $110 billion from drunk driving. When you add up all the costs, crime costs Americans a stunning $675 billion each year.

  7. peterusa123 says:

    Paul commented
    Well you raise an intresting fact. The first is this. The owner/Author of this blog has always (And rightly) insistered that all comments are answered in a respectful, civililised, doctrinal, and in a adult way. Just reading your outburst comment there is quite sad. However you do have the right to say what you want, its just a shame the you feel like you have to. I wonder why people react the way they do when aparantly they have the truth, and what they should be doing is explaining the truth.
    My response
    Can you show me where I was disrespectful to any one here.
    Paul commented
    Yes you are correct in quoting Jeshua ” three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”
    The question you should be asking is this;
    ” Why put guards on an entrance to a tomb” ??
    You are right there were no bystanders waiting. Yes (Ive made this point earlier) no one could quite get their head around the fact that Jeshua would be ressurected. They simple did not understand Him, they lacked the faith that they should have had, and secondly they were affraid of reprisals. Its thats simple. Put it this way………….. As soon as they saw Him ressurected one of the first things they asked Him was “Is now the time for you to establish the Kingdom” “No” was the answer. “I still need to ascend then I will come back”. So you see their theology was correct but their application was wrong.

    My response
    It is amazing that you admit that they did not understand your man god. So tell me why should any one believe anything of the books they wrote if they misunderstood this than they can misunderstand a hundred more things. So these are the people who wrote your books people who lacked faith? this is another amazement.
    About the reprisal this is not true Romans would not care if they hanged around the grave. Also this is what they wrote they asked this does not necessarily make it true you just admitted they lacked faith so they could have been liars too. Their theology was incorect and their application was not wrong they made all this up.
    Paul commented
    So why put gaurds on the entrance? To steal His body and sell a story of a ressurected man. The disciples didnt even understand the basics of a Jeshua ressurection. So Why hide in fear if you ACTUALLY KNOW He will be ressurected? Doesnt make sense. You would think as you say why not have a vigil of byestanders waiting to show all, the Pharisees etc the truth. Having no one there waiting proves my point. No faith in what Jeshua had previoulsy said. As far as the disciples thought it was all over and they were next for the chop!
    My response
    Again this is all made up no one was resurected that is why no one was there at the grave the whole thing was made up and the writers forgot to put in that many were there waiting and saw the resurection.
    Paul commented
    The gaurds you will see fell asleep while on duty. If this was made known to there centurion boss they would have been killed or flogged. So They went in secret to the priests and told them that they had dozed off. Not knowing what had happened to Jeshua they came up with the story, lets say the disciples stole the body while you slept. They were paid off by the priests and everything was ushered up. Its funny if they were asleep how did they know it was the disciples who stole the body. And why didnt the preists do anything about the sleeping gaurds, ie complain to the romans.
    My response
    Paul again this is all made up there were no guards. However I will let a christian historian answer you on this.
    “Robert L. Wilken, a Christian historian, points out that “For almost a century Christianity went unnoticed by most men and women in the Roman Empire. … [Non-Christians saw] the Christian community as a tiny, peculiar, antisocial, irreligious sect, drawing its adherents from the lower strata of society.”[96] First-century Romans had about as much interest in refuting Christian claims as twentieth century skeptics had in refuting the misguided claims of the Heaven’s Gate cult: they simply didn’t care to refute it. As for the Jews, Jewish sources do not even mention the Resurrection, much less attempt to refute it.[97] As Martin writes, “This hardly suggests that Jewish leaders were actively engaged in attempting to refute the Resurrection story but failing in their efforts.”[98] Of course it is possible that the Jews wanted to keep the Resurrection story quiet precisely because they couldn’t refute it, but in order for Craig’s argument to have any force, he has the burden of proof to show that that mere possibility is probably what happened. ”
    In case you will claim well when the story got out about a resurrection why didn’t they show the grave. Here Wilkens answers.
    According to Gerald Bostock, after seven weeks, “the corpse would not have been easily demonstrated to be the body of Jesus. The time-lag would have made the production of the body a futile exercise, even if its production could have proved anything of significance.”[100] I confirmed Bostock’s objection by contacting John Nernoff III, a retired pathologist, and asked him about the decomposition of a body at 65 degrees Fahrenheit. According to Nernoff, a face will become nearly unrecognizable after several days at 65 degrees Fahrenheit.[101] Of course, for all we know, the temperature inside Jesus’ tomb may have been much colder than 65 degrees Fahrenheit.
    Paul commented
    Jeshua was quite dead when they put Him into the tomb. Jeshua was quite dead as Jonah was for three days and three nights. But on the third day Jeshua was alive (eternal life) and showing Himself to His brethren.
    My response
    Jonah was not dead for three days. I know you christians make another lie for this and claim it was like it. However this is just another ploy to get out of the false hood of those who wrote the books.
    I have seen chrisitians respond with why would they make up these stories. The responses I saw from Jews and ex christians I don’t think is satisfactory. The response should be is than if any one believes in the christian books because why would they lie than they have to believe in the muslim book, hindu book, scientology book etc. The same question can be asked of them why would they lie.
    Paul commented
    When you read the account of Jeshua raising Lazurus from the dead, you see an ironic thing. The very person who raised Lazurus from the dead clearly has the power of God over life and death. Why try and kill someone who has the power over death, pretty pointless and secondly you start to see the mind set of the Pharisees. “Lets also kill Lazurus who has been raised from the dead.”……………. Hang on, whats Lazurus ever done to receive such a punishment. Its not his fault that he died and then was raised from the dead!!!
    My response
    Paul the fact is that they did kill your god and your book attest to that. It is a rule, however not an exact rule, that if some one says a bad thing about their god or religion than it must be true or why would they make up a bad thing about it. However if some thing good is written than it may be true or not since they have a motive to write a good thing. So we believe your god died but we don’t believe he was resurrected. Also there were others before your man god who raised people from the dead read the book of kings were they your gods too? lazurus was never resurected again this is all made up in your false book
    Paul commented
    I say the Pharisses saw a ressurected Lazurus but refused to accept anything as a Miracle from God Himself if it meant there own corrupt and comfortable lifes being turned upside down.
    My response
    You just admitted before that your own people did not believe in a resurection now why not doesnt your book claim that he performed many miracles before this so why should they not believe he can do a resurection.
    Actually Paul their lives would have been much easier the Pharisees were not allowed to eat pig and other things now they can, they had to keep the Sabbath now they didn’t have too. They had to go three times a day to the synagogue now they would only have to go once a week to the chiche etc. In fact you can do anything you want to in christianity so it would be easier to be a christian than a Pharisee. In fact you have just given a proof of why islam would be more true than your false christiainity. To be muslim you had to give up pig and alcohol now why would they do that if they were not sure it is true. To be a christian you hardly have to give up anything of your previous way just profess in a different false god that they were following. .In fact that is why later the Roman pagans converted to christianity. All they had to do was worship a different false god they can keep on doing whatever they were doing before.

    Paul I say it is the christians that don’t accept anything of a miracle from their god. muhammad, islams greatest prophet, performed many miracles and not one christian or christian priest believes in those miracles from their god. I say the reason is than christians would have to give up eating pigs and close all their bars. This “meant there own corrupt and comfortable life’s being turned upside down.” So again there are more christians that don’t believe in the miracles of their god than Jews that didn’t believe in the miracles of your god. There are more christians in the world than Jews.

    “The Miracles of Muhammad”
    “Apart from the greatest miracle given to him, the Quran, Prophet Muhammad performed many physical miracles witnessed by his contemporaries numbering in hundreds, and in some cases thousands.[1] The miracle reports have reached us by a reliable and strong methods of transmission unmatched in world history. It is as if the miracles were performed in front of our eyes. The meticulous method of transmission is what convinces us that Muhammad indeed performed these great miracles with divine aid and, thus, we can believe him when he said, ‘I am God’s Messenger. ’Muhammad’s great miracles were witnessed by thousands of believers and skeptics, following which verses of the Quran were revealed mentioning the supernatural events.”

    Paul commented
    So why did they put a Roman Gaurd by the tomb???
    My response
    Again they did not it is all made up.
    Paul commented
    1 Cor 15 v3
    For I delivered to you first of all that which I also recieved; that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures.
    My response
    Read it carefully he is saying he received this lie from some one else how do we know it is true. Well I know it is all a lie.

    Also christians have a story in their book how their god went with a whip to chase out the money changers in the Temple this is also false. Jews were not scared of the chrisitan false god if he came with a whip they would have thrown him out on his head.

    • naaria says:

      A dangerous “game” to go “playing in a minefield” by trying to make a point about some people born & raised in pagan Egypt holding onto their pagan ways in the matter of a gold bull “after seeing miracles earlier” and then ask others to put faith in those hand-picked or called disciples & followers of Jesus who “lacked faith” in the very presence of their teacher & leader. Or that some “seen a miracle of an ascent into heaven”, but yet in the very same moment they didn’t see any ascent, or they didn’t see any miracle or they didn’t see the miracles as miracles when they seen them, or didn’t understand what they seen, until much later, although they were taught (even in secret & not in parables) to understand that Jesus was a teacher with very important messages and they where being prepared to anticipate what was coming, so that they could be effective witnesses about him and what he taught them. Why is there so much reliance on testimonies & witnesses (which is the language of legalism used by those who suspect or even despise legalism), when the Christian debater or the NT writers do much to discredit the testimony & the witnesses?

      Some of what some call contradictions others might call “difficulties” that “must be true because why would the writer include those difficulties”? First, understand the nature of those “difficulties”. Some are the beliefs held by the writer. Only others see problems with that text. Some of this difficulty is called “the Synoptic Problem”. Mark writes what the author of Mark may believe. Then, perhaps when Mark is used against Christians by skeptics, someone like the author or editors of Matthew needs to re-word Mark’s words. And the writer of Luke agrees with Matthew or he disagrees with both Mark & Matthew. John is a whole “nuther” story. There are several different theories that try to explain the obvious differences of belief or testimonies by the various NT writers. Be that what it may, in the present text, the writers tell us that supposedly within 30 years after the death of Jesus, Christians believe things about Jesus that are so different that some believers in or followers of Jesus are called heretics by other believers. Some Christians considered a “flesh & blood” or physical, human Jesus to be an abominable idea. Others, believed there was no need for a Jesus unless he was a “real human” who died a physical death and was resurrected. The NT itself tells us that some Christians forged Paul’s name to their writings. So whose testimony is valid? For those who are skeptics, one only needs to read the writings of Church leaders (long before Constantine) to gain a more historical or real perspective of the origins of Christianity. I am not saying one shouldn’t be a Christian, but only look at what those witnesses are really saying, before deciding how valid those testimonies are or who testimony you decide to consider as the most valid ones.

      Again with the criticism of the “Sinai testimony”, it is “dangerous” territory for Christians trying to make an argument against Jews or Judaism, because they are likewise undermining Jesus and the testimony of his followers. There is a difficulty in trying to criticize “Jewishness” (or Israel), while also trying to promote the “Jewishness” of Jesus and “all his early followers” (along with the Romans, Greeks or Hellenists, Samaritans, etc). Jesus did not make some of the arguments about Moses or the Law or the Sinai Covenant and testimony that some Christians have made above. There is a problem of promoting a negative perception of “Pharisees”, while at the same time accepting the “Pharasiac” words of Jesus. Most of the NT writers seem to favor the “hypocrisy of their contemporaries angle” rather than the “blindness of Israel of the past tactic”.

  8. peterusa123 says:

    The funny thing is even christians call other christians idol worshipers till today. The only idol worshiping Jews that can be found today are those worshiping the same idol that christians worship. So if christians want to call these Jews idol worshipers I would agree.

    Are Orthodox Christians Christian?
    http://www.born-again-christian.info/questions/answers.59.htm
    Q We know that Roman Catholics are full of idolatry, and will die in their sins,
    but I have heard very little commentary anywhere on the Orthodox church. Are
    they in the same situation? Michael

    A Yes utterly doomed, ‘Orthodox Christianity’ (an eerily Orwellian designation)
    is just another production from Satan’s religious theatre, masquerading as
    Christianity. They include the Eastern, Greek, and Russian Orthodox ‘churches’.

  9. hyechiel says:

    Dear Friends;
    I have re-read these posts.
    1. A Jew wo converts to any other religion i sas Jewish as a Christian who converts to any other faith is Christian.
    2. A Jew is potentially of one or two things; a Nation and a faith.
    If I leave my faith, I am still “ethically” as Jewish, as say, if you become a citizen of Mexico or Saudi Arabia are still American (“ethically?”).
    3. G-d made it clear that no idols in His house. If I accept an idol, say, for example, Jesus, then I loose my salvation.
    4. Jesus’s tomb had to be watched for fear of trickery. Common Roman and Greek practice. The NT states the guards fell asleep. Oops!
    Instead of breaking his bones, he was (an rear exception) stabbed in the side. “water”-urine, and blood came out. Could it be that when the guards fell asleep, medico persons snucked in and treated Jesus for his wonds? Way he was discribed walking around, seemed to be he was in pain.
    5. As for the garbage of Jews rejecting Jesus? Jews accepted and rejected many claiments to Moshiac-hood. BUT-who were the first followers of the Nazarine? Jews and Noahides (G-dfearing Gentiles). For over a hundred years, what eventually became a separite faith was a sect in Judaism. The Rebellion in 70 CE and the later Bar Kochba rebillion made for poor realations with Rome, so the Nazarine leaders did what they thought was a wise move-ran.
    They became the fore-runners of Christianity, with the forgeries that came with it, but dispate the early proof of their false hood, were still accepted.
    You may respect St. Jerome, but you do not listen to him.
    6. In my studies, I figure that no more on average than 5% of a population is bigoted towards another faith, with tose ot so doing what they see as prudent. Crusades or Islamest Fanantices, all similar dymantics. So I do not get into a leather over a people, but over the “leadership” responsible for the evel. So I cannot be negative at you for your beliefs, but shall do what I can to counter evel in all forms.
    7. And last. (Well) Instead of trying to distroy Judaism (missionary work), I suggest you work to repair Chriastianity. Or, you continue to discrease one fine Jew, who taought what is needed to go to heaven; Jesus. He made a fine statement to a Gentile in Matthew 19:16-19, and he, more than Paul, contradicted the theam we ead in your Gospels. So, Paul and all, become true Christians, OK?
    Shalom;
    Yechiel

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