Trust and Repentance
Rabbi Shlomo Ibn Gabirol describes the process of repentance as escaping and fleeing from God to God. When we realize the weight of God’s judgment and the evil of sin we recognize that we need to escape. But there is only one place to run and that is to take shelter in God Himself. And God promises to protect and preserve those who trust in Him and only in Him (Nahum 1:7; Psalm 18:31).
Trusting in God means trusting in no one and in nothing else. Not in our works, not in our merits, not in our strength or wealth, not in the blood of any sacrifice and certainly not in the works of someone who claimed to be sinless. God told Moses that he will have compassion on whom He will have compassion (Exodus 33:19). If someone looks to God and to God alone for compassion then that is where God’s compassion will be found. If someone looks elsewhere for compassion – such as to the claims of a “perfect sacrifice” or to the works of a person who walked God’s earth and breathed God’s air like you or me – then God will tell you to go to that person to find your compassion. And anyone who breathed God’s air is just as needy for God’s compassion as you are (Isaiah 2:22).
In this spirit and as part of Eternal Israel’s worship we address God with the following words in the Yom Kippur liturgy:
“We are Your nation and You are our God.
We are Your children and You are our Father.
We are Your servants and You are our Master.
We are Your congregation and You are our portion.
We are Your inheritance and You are our lot.
We are Your sheep and You are our Shepherd.
We are Your vineyard and You are our Keeper.
We are Your handiwork and You are our Creator.
We are Your spouse and You are our Beloved.
We are Your treasure and You are our God.
We are Your nation and You are our King.
We are Your distinguished ones and You are our Distinction.
We are brazen-faced and You are merciful and gracious.
We are stiff-necked and You are slow to anger.
We are filled with iniquity and You are filled with compassion.
We – our days are like a fleeting shadow and Your years will never end.”
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This is an incredibly beautiful post.
What do you think of this quote by Charles Spurgeon? Many Christians would agree with what you say about God’s forgiveness, but would not think that they are turning to ‘another’ when looking to Jesus for atonement.
“Christ did not die to make his Father loving, but because his Father is loving: the atoning blood is the outflow of the very heart of God toward us.”
I believe there’s a problem when people suggest that ‘God can’t be forgiving without satisfying His justice with a death’. Where does it say that in Tanach? It only says that God chooses to forgive, and Israel praised Him for it even while not knowing how He did it; His ways are above our ways. It’s the same today. But I think the quote I brought above is a bit different. It claims that God was incarnate Himself in Jesus, and that He has revealed the death and restoration to life of that man as an expression of His love and forgiveness. Christians think that to take shelter in that is not to look to a mortal man for compassion, but to respond to the compassion of God Himself and an action that they say He did as an expression of that love, and of His justice, when He erases sins out of kindness.
(To be clear, I don’t believe that Jesus was God or that his death was a gift of atonement for humanity from God. Because of that I also believe that the concept I described is an ugly blurring of the lines between a created being and God; between a fictional story and the real ways of our Maker. But I wanted to point out that I think Christians are looking at it in this way.)
In order to believe Spurgeon’s quote one must attribute divinity to the physical blood that flowed from Jesus or at least to the human personality from which this blood flowed – this is not trusting in the One Creator of all that exists in our finite world
Some people think that just like a human ‘self’ experiences the things that their spirit and body go through, God chose to allow Himself to experience the things that Jesus’ human personality and body went through. Thus they think that the suffering was an act of self-sacrifice by none other than God.
Again, sorry to describe such a blurring of the lines as if it could have validity or a place in the discussion about the way people see and speak about Israel’s God. But a lot of people do think like this.
Catholic Church teaches that Jesus never cried out in pain. They also teach that Mary never experienced any child birth pains. So much for experience. My mother believes we need only to pray to Mary, she will get with Jesus, who will then get with g-d, figure out whether we’re deserving or not, get back with Jesus if all approved. It must be true she has been know to show her face on trees and hamburgers.
When I was a Christian and questioning Christianity in the face of Judaism, I tried to keep in mind that individual groups or people have various beliefs that may be wrong… those things don’t disqualify the whole faith system.
I was just saying that people think that God didn’t create a new ‘self’ to be cloaked in the man Jesus, but rather that the eternal God made Himself present in that man just like our inner being is identified with our body and personality etc. If any human being gives their life for someone, it is that person as a whole… not just their body… that made that gift.
@ Annelise, I agree most of what they preach is good. They , christians, all claim to preach the real meaning of scripture. They teach anyone can come to the same conclusion, if there just honest about it. If you disagree, your simply dishonest. End of story, pray, and g-d willing, he’ll get you up to speed. His mercy knows no bounds. But is that what he teaches? Capitol “HE”. And I’m not saying that the 10 commandments were written in order of importance, but the first thing GD instructs us is don’t make another gd for yourselves. Then he stresses our relationship with him. Whatever. He never said, it’s ok, as long as it mostly agrees with my 10 commandments. At the same time miracles happen to Christians, Morman’s, etc. Jewish people alike. He mercy knows no bounds, he loves everyone.
Sounds fine. In the Tanach, G-d tells us that we go directly to Him. Not just Jews, but anyone who calls out in truth.
He willed it, I accept it as He said.
As for experience; all He has to do is to emphasize with us. We have experience to go around, even unto the Gates of Heaven.
Anyway, this is what we learn in His word, in His Sacred Torah.
Thank you anyway. I understand that even many learned Jews have difficulity with it. If I am sincere, I know, though that it shall be as He said.
After all, we are still the only nation on Earth He spoke to-directly. So I know He is close. Do you?
Annelise apolegised for “Blurring the lines!”
G-d has nont blurred the lines; He made it vry clear that He alone is G-d in the Heavens above, on the Earth benieth the Heavens, and in the sea.
Also He said He alone is G-d, He does not share His glory with another.
Also, He said that He has no Father, nor does He have a Son.
OK, so what is G-d?
As far as we know, He is the Creator, and He knows everything from the beghinning until the end. So why would He, who is G-d and Creator over every planet where there is life?
Fact also is; as a Spiritual Being, who fills the whole Universe and more, where would there be room for any other Entinty? As G-d and the Holy Spirit as two parts of a Trinity? And why should He? What purpose would having Himself in Two serve????
So reading the Tanach as it is, in the Hebrew, spells out one, non-Divided G-d. And as for a “son” who is not a decendant of David on his father’s side, thus not a messiah, and a failure to boot!
G-d of the Jewish faith works in thisway; He said it, He means it and it is done as He said.
Jesus, as the messiah, and divine as well failed the job discription, so we go back to the source-G-d. In which case, there is no Trinity.
Maybe I’m looking at this incorrectly, but Charles S. like all fads, come and go. He probably would not be accepted today by the very faith he enjoyed in his time. Fortunately we have the original teachings. No matter how far man gets off the correct path we can always go back to that. And there will always be someone here to help us.
We do not disdane any person or faith which gives the person/people a way towards ethical and moral living, and compassion. As long as the other person’s faith is not being shoved down someone’s throut, OK.
We have been given a way by G-d. Those who want to “save” our souls are way out in left field, as He is the only One.
I read an article by a doctor who had mennigitis, and when he woke up, discribed his journey in the after life.
I have read other reports of such journeys. One thing stands out; NO LABLES! There was ot a Jewish section, Christian section, Hindu section, ect. All souls shared the same heaven.
Sound like Tanach to me, but this doctor I mentioined? He was an agnostic, so he had to learned this some where. He refused to before his illness, so this leaves only one place he could have-Heaven.
Trusting in God means trusting in no one and in nothing else. Not in our works, not in our merits, not in our strength or wealth, not in the blood of any sacrifice and certainly not in the works of someone who claimed to be sinless.
Well, I don’t see a statement of “Jesus” himself that he was sinless. This pretention was created by the church because of the doctrine that his mother was born without sin already and everyone else was born in inherited sin (Tehillim 51:5 – twisted). This requires the baby sprinkling known as baptism. They teach that even “Jesus'” mother ascended without sin – as a virgin. It is important for Evangelicals e. g. that their Jesus was without sin. But that this in fact is the Catholic “Jesus” that has nothing in comon with the Jew Yeshua they don’t see. “Jesus” and his sinlessness and his virgin birth and many of his weird statements are late interpolations that Yeshua would not have the foggiest idea about.
As a Christian I experienced hat certain fellowchristians trusted in Jesus, and their prayers were answerd. Others trust in Mary with the same result. Today, I believe that every now and then YHVH shows them His goodness in order to lead them to repentance. But as with Noah, the day will come (and is very close already) when the unanswered call for repentance will be “rewarded”. Then they will see that they had trusted in a false divinity, in a graven image in a manger and on a crucifix. But then it is too late.
For over 50 years I had trusted in “Jesus” and his Christian father. But then the HOLY ONE (blessed be His name) revealed Himself to me. This had to do with my calling and with grace. I had trusted in the mentioned blood of the mentioned human sacrifice
What you are referring to is Catholicism which venerates Mary more than is justified through scripture. I also disagree with much of Catholicism but I do believe in the bible which does state that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. I also agree with you and others who have debated here that Jesus is not God and that Christianity (as you and many others understand it) is in error. Stated another way, Christianity is not in error but many of those who practice it are in error in their belief. If you read the bible carefully you’ll see that most Christians are misreading scripture (both the NT and OT) on this point regarding Jesus being God.
So, you are correct in part: Nowhere does it (the bible) say that the mother of Jesus was sinless, but it does say that He, Jesus was sinless. And you are correct I believe that Jesus himself doesn’t use the word “sinless” (although I’ll have to check to see whether he states it indirectly) in speaking of himself but He makes it clear that God sent him for a purpose. He did not come on his own. And He fulfilled God’s purpose.
However, you are mistaken to read into it that what Jesus is repeatedly saying does not describe a sinless life. He says repeatedly in many different ways throughout the Gospels that on his own without God his father he does and can do “nothing.” Again and again He says that he only does God’s will, never anything else. He says that He is always obedient to God and that God’s love is always with Him BECAUSE of his obedience to God. He says that He only does what God shows him and tells him.
He always prays to God and gives God the thanks for everything. He states that all of his authority for everything is from God. Jesus sometimes forgives sins through his God given authority, frequently stating that their faith has healed them. And sometimes He prays to God openly in public thanking God and directly asking that God forgive the sins of others. Did Jesus ask for forgiveness for his own sins? No. He had no sins to forgive.
Logic also tells us that since Jesus was in the will of God and the will of God was in Jesus at all times, Jesus had no sin. It wasn’t magic and it wasn’t because He was God himself. It was simply because He knew who he was since his youth, the Son of God, the Christ; He knew that God was his father. He knew scripture. And, then He made a conscious decision since his youth to always do the will of His father and fulfill His father’s purpose.
Everything He did was from God including the miracles. Jesus makes that clear. He only takes glory as God willed it. He never claims that what He did was through His own inherent power or authority. He repeatedly claims just the opposite that everything is from God His father.
I could go on and on but you see what I mean. Scripture tells us that He was a man, but the unique man in all of mankind, the only begotten Son of God born of a virgin, who was crucified and raised by God, who now sits at the right hand of God as willed by God. He made a decision to do the will of God His father and He did it and continues to do it. That is a description of sinlessness.
Jesus never claimed to be the son of g-d. Only the son of man. Imagine the 10 commandments written in that kind of code.
Google this: “verses where Jesus says he is the Son of God”
This link will be the first:
(all verses NIV, courtesy of Bible Gateway)
Verses where Jesus directly claims to be the Son of God
John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
John 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God’s Son’?
John 11:4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”
John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.”
Mark 14:61-62 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Verses where Jesus indirectly claims to be the Son of God (or God)
Matthew 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
John 8:58-59 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Verses where Jesus allows other to call him the Son of God (or God)
Luke 3:21-22 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Matthew 4:3-7 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'” Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'” Jesus answered him, “It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'”
John 1:49-50 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.” Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that.”
Matthew 16:15-17 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.”
John 11:25-27 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” “Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”
John 20:28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Verses where the narrator of a gospel calls Jesus the Son of God (or God)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(‘The Word’ is Jesus, as is obvious from verse 14: ‘The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us’.)
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
John 3:16-18 (These in fact may be the words of Jesus – the original Greek had no quote marks so it’s not always clear). For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
I did google it, earlier, to make sure. Not that it matters, I have no belief in any of the NT. looks like you found even more new scriptures, or just different translations. Maybe you will eventually understand why GD said to have no other gods but him. Soon you might even believe its ok to kill infidels who do not believe what you do.
Sorry David, that was a bit harsh.
Just stick with the Tanach, and you shall get it right. Others are shadows of His word.
Very good, and I enjoy reading your cycle of apoligest. I took your advice and “google” son of god. Wakipedia had this as part of it’s post; Christian antiquity
>>>Early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Eusebius, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Commodianus have held the view that the “sons of God” in Genesis 6:1-4 were fallen angels who engaged in unnatural union with human women, resulting in the begetting of the Nephilim. Modern Christians have argued against this view by reasoning on Jesus’ comment in Matthew 22:30 that angels do not marry, although it only refers to angels in heaven. Others saw them as descendants of Seth. Saint Augustine subscribed to this view, based on the orations of Julius Africanus, in his book City of God which refer to the “sons of God” as being descendants of Seth (or Sethites), the pure line of Adam. The “daughters of men” are viewed as the descendants of Cain (or Cainites). Variations of this view was also received by Jewish philosophers. James M.Scott also proposes that the identification of Jesus as a Son of God arose from the Adoptionist theology that was later rejected at Nicea.<<<
David, Remember, much material has been added on after the deaths of Jesus and his deciples. Common practice back then, and still is used today. Anyway, neither the Pharisees nor the Sudacees accepted a mutiple divinity, so the intruder in the writings was either a Jew who accepted Roman/Helinic beliefs, as a Heathen believer, whose ideas were seen OK by the Gentile followers of the Nazarines.
I truly love that prayer in the Yom Kippur liturgy. 🙂
Shalom, and my prayers are for peace to Jerusalem.
I disagree, as you might expect.
Trusting in God means Listen and obey.
As in the case of Abraham, listen and obey.
As in the case of Moses, listen and obey.
As in the case of Israelites in Egypt and later; followers of Moses, then Joshua, listen and obey.
As in the case of Christians; followers of Jesus, listen and obey.
But wait, the Israelites were listening to and obeying Moses. Why? That’s what God wants.
Christians are listening to and obeying Jesus. Why? Same answer, no difference, that’s what God wants.
We are to bring the Torah to the World (listen and obey), Christians are to bring the World to the Torah. All else is commentary.
On a seperate subject, a couple of posts back you referenced something about sons of God in the plural sense. Most if not all Christians believe that there are now and have been in the past, sons of God or children of God in the plural sense.
But there was and is only one begotten Son of God, which is why He’s called the “Son of God.” He was begotten by God.
God said to listen to His Son (meaning His only begotten Son Jesus). So we are simply doing our duty as sons of God, listening and obeying. That’s pretty much what the Israelites did (or attempted to do) with Moses. Moses was the mediator for the Israelites and Jesus is the mediator for the world.
Any son of God should listen and obey God and God says to listen to His Son Jesus. Therefore, I listen to Jesus. Really I see no difference between this and what the Israelites did. It’s all the same logic to me. I follow Jesus becaus I follow God, just as the Israelites followed Moses because they followed God.
See where I’m comming from?
One more item; we see and hear where you are coming from. I read a good example of it yesterday; Church of Scotland on Israel for not giving in to the killers of Jews, but not one word have I read from them on the 70,000 human beings Assad of Syria has murdered in that bloody civil war. Jesus is probaly rolling fast in his grave.
Why is it, David, your Christians pound on Jews for not kissing up to our murderers, but are salant on mass murders as in the Christians in Lebbanon, Darfu refugees, children in Afganistan raped as a social thing, ect.
Get this stright; G-d knows, no matter what word games you play. The solution is simple, come up to His Torah. Jesus said it and did. Shall you?
Shalom. one day soon, I pray.
I prefer to talk about Scripture. I’m not playing word games.
You said; >>> I prefer to talk about Scripture. I’m not playing word games.<<<
I prefere to live scripture. Talk is cheap!!!! Meanwhile, like with the Shoah, bla, bla, bla, while the blood flows.
I noted only Israel has done anythig meaningful to help fight the evel in Syria. I remember a colleague where I worked during the Lebanon civil war. Only Israel did anything meaningful to save lives. I asked him why he thinks the USA, UN, or the EU have not done anything yet. His responce? They are not the right kind of Christians! I guess as the victims are not your kind of people, let them be slaughter; women and children as well as the fighters.
I am oppose to the slaughter; are you?
As I said, I see where you are coming from. To help you better understand your part, read the article in this website; http://www.torah.org/features/secondlook/genetic.html
All Torah based Jews understand perfectly what Jesus said. Why when, one time a minister tried to “sae’ my soul, I redirected him to what Jesus said about Torah. He left in a huff.
But, Dave, all i did was to quote Jesus. Just because his word supports that Jews have to be true to HaShem abd His Torah, for our salvation, should not have angered him.
Oh, yes, far as I know, he is still a Christian minister. Maybe more humble?
Enjoy the website. Lots of info on Judaism, Jews and Christian interaction.
Maybe we are mixing up too many differing topics or themes here. I don’t see what the link on Torah (which I read) is supposed to answer regarding any of my questions or support regarding any of your posts. Maybe it is supposed to support “Torah to the world and the world to the Torah?” But I didn’t see where that was talked about in the link. If so can you reference the paragraph please, I missed it.
If you have read the Torah, you know before Abram, there were the Noahide. Jesus said as much to several persons, as in Matthew 19:16-19 an Luke, ch 8.
Then, came Abram.
Also, the Oral Law is 38 years older than the written, except for the ten words and a few other items.
Something to think about?
I have noted that many Christians understand this. I accept their sharing, as they have some understanding of what G-d wants of us.
At the other end of the spectream; those who died and then came back, with having seen Heaven, noted that there are no lables there. You do not have to be Jewish to go to Heaven, or any other faith. Just do as HaShem said; Do justly, Love mercy and Walk in Humility with the L-rd, our G-d.
You find this in Micah, by the way.
Thank you! You posted; [God said to listen to His Son (meaning His only begotten Son Jesus). So we are simply doing our duty as sons of God, listening and obeying. That’s pretty much what the Israelites did (or attempted to do) with Moses. Moses was the mediator for the Israelites and Jesus is the mediator for the world.]
I am not going to comment on your belief that Jesus is the mediator for the world, but you stated why it is wrong for missionaries to rty and convert Jews to their faith. He established our perimitors, and told us to do as He said.
If your missionaries would work with us to advance His way, as He told us, and not to use defective methods to lure us towards their way, theen His way would be heaard a lot more clearly.
Sayinf a human is god in any language is OK for Pagans, but it cancels the salvation of any Jew who dies with this belief in his heart.
Why, because He told us several things that you can look up and read; Deut.; “Be sure you know that I, the L-rd, a G-d in the Heavens above, and on the earth beniegth.”
Also, His statements that He does not share His glory with an other. “I am G-d.” is His way of stating this concept.
He also said-and this cancels any godson you may come up with; “I have no father, and I have no son. i am the L-rd.’ Also, I am the same from the beginning, and shall be the same at the end.”
David, G-d said that to worship, or even to awknoledge divinity in any object is Idolitry. This is what He wnats of and from Us; His Chosen People.
You, rightly believe our belief system is right. My challenge to all Christians today is to show it, do so, bring Heaven down to earth, as He said He wants it to be. But, to do so, you all are going to have to make some changes in yhour system.
1. Judge not.
2. Reach out in love.
3. Know and do what He said, as it partains to you. (Hint; GENESIS).
4. THEN AS MANY CHRISTIANS ARE DOING TODAY; work with us to help people of all backgrounds.
David, I would rejoice if never again a Christian person says of another sect of Christians; “They are not the right kind of Christians. To this man, and many others, the Nazarines of the first two centuries were the wrong kind of Christians. Yup; they were at first, mostly Jewish, and the only similarity was they accepted Jesus’s mesiahship. Then, along came Constatine, who said lets make a deal, or goodby by the sward.
So the Nazarines became Christian, as soon as they accepted the divinizatioin of a human being.
I share a little of the history as it was written then. Now, you may have a chance to make history, by finding the truth, helping your people to return to G-d and the world—a safe placefor humanity.
There, in fact, is a God who has an only begotten son in the Bible. This is a fact many Jews don’t consider. The fact that ELOHIM and Theos likewise were translated as “God” crates an awareness of a syncretistic Hebrew/Greek God-mixture within Christianity. I read: Adonai Echad! And this Adonai in the second commandment has forbidden to pray to Theos or his son or to his holy ghost or to serve this pagen triune divinity or any of its components, not even the father. Adonai Echad excludes Theos!
Chag Shavuot Sameach!
There is only one name for HaShem, the Tritegramiton. Adoni=lord, elohim=power, as a king; either human or other. Angels, identified as “angel” are sometines IDed as elohim.
The phrase “adoni elohim” = lord god; either as his phrse for Himself, or another.
Also, do you call G-d a lier? He said; “I have no son.” So your post does not change anything, but shows you could study the Hebrew, and how it is used Biblically, talmudically and in today’s world. Like all living languages, it changes. However, the fact He has no son has not changed, as it is contadicted by the Christian belief that His son is from the beginning. But, He said; “I share My Glory with none other.”
Now that G-d (not I) has shown the way, you have the free will to decide; is your belief in a son justified by any means?
As a matter of fact HaShem has a son. Moshe had to tell the Pharao who this son was: Israel is my firstborn son…. This excludes another only begotten son named Jesus who was not predicted by any of the neviim. In Amos 3:7, I read that HaShem does not do a thing unless He had announced it before by his prophets. No, None of the neviim ever was given a prophecy for Jesus, no-one!
When I read certain statements of Yeshua in the so-called New Testament I understand that he prophetically warned his talmidim of the anticipated Christian religion of the Romans.(woman & leaven e. g.)
Chag Sameach, Shomer
Thank you. I like your imput. I know that phrase, and see it as the people Israel. But you made a valid comment there, and I look forward to others discussing it. But, we still have G-d’s statement that He has no son. At the time this was written-the second conquest I think it was, there were many Jesus like sons of god(s) flying around. The Hindus Khrushna, for example. Brahma impregnated his mother, and when Khrushne died (went to his reward), he became part of their trimutry.
Zoroaister was also divinely conceived, as were some Helinnic heros. So something had to be said.
Do you have an on line reference/link where you got that from so I can read a little more on it? At this point I’m not sure what you are talking about – Torah to the World, World to the Torah.
I thought you knew what Jesus said?!?
In Matthew, 19:16-19, he told the questioner to follow the seven Laws of Noah. But, and a big but, is his expressed commentment to Torah as ever lasting (Not one dot or tatle shall pass, until all is done.
Now if this is to recent for you, there is Zachariah, where he says the same thing in the Name of the Living G-d; “All the Nations shall worship the Holy G-d, as One at the Temple. And in that day, the L-rd shall be one, and His Name shall be One, and all shall worship Him as One.”
All the Nations (Plural) shallWorship the Holy G-d, at the Temple, as One…” To know what they are to do, they would need His instruction book; His Torah.
Or, (we also have “proff texts”) a Multitude of people came out of Egypt with the People of Israel.
G-d told Moses how these people shall be treated.
There is more, but if you want some real good info, simpletoremember.com or org. I forgot which, but this is one websitethat simplifies the text.
Or, Jews for Judaism.org.
Thing is, Jesus and Paul both have remarks which the editors failed to remove, that basically says you should observe His Torah. What! You don’t! Think about it; is G-d’s way, or man’s way that you shall observe and to do?
Remember, G-d told us that He is single, indivisable and has niether a father nor a son. All in the Tanach.
I don’t see the point you are trying to make. Can you restate it in one sentence please. and then you can support it further if you like or just let the above post support it. But please just state your point, or not, that’s up to you.
I am wordy, but I post for those who read our posts, so they have some info to help them find some of the answers. I am not trying to sell anything, so I feel free to discuss, not just try and prove anything.
Fine, but since you said “Dear David” I thought you had something to say to me. At this point I have no idea what you’re trying to say other than you have nothing to sell. Ok, you have nothing to sell.
You said;>>> David says:
May 9, 2013 at 1:45 pm
Fine, but since you said “Dear David” I thought you had something to say to me. At this point I have no idea what you’re trying to say other than you have nothing to sell. Ok, you have nothing to sell.
Right. Religion is not for sale, it is for one to guide your life by.
I post to counter the bigotry I read in many posts, but also to encourage tose who are trying to find their way to G-d, as they understand Him.
I hope you find your way, if you still feel you have not done so. As it is, we are all trying.
Today the Scripture in Zechariah 8, especially the 3rd verse was brought to my remembrance. How do Jewish people interpret this verse? I thought that it meant non-Jewish people realized the God of the Jews is the one true God and so they reached out in an attempt to access God indirectly through Judaism, instead of going to Him directly. I’d love feedback on this. 🙂
Do you perhaps mean verse 23?
Sorry ypf, you’re right I did mean 23. I also didn’t word that at all well. What I mean was that people would come to Judaism (the religion only) because they realized Jews know the one true God. But as the verse says they are grabbing onto the garment (shirt/hem) of the Jew, rather than a hand or such, so they are trying to get to God by obeying the rules and not seeking Him honestly with their whole heart. I hope that makes more sense 🙂
You are on target for the present way, in our society, of how we look at certain actionis.
However, back then, there are certain symbolic simbols that the Nevaiim (translated as prophet, but really means spokeperson) used to relate the cencrity of the appealants. The garment is like a tallis; a connection to the Divine. So the opposite view may be in line as to what htese people the Nevvaiim were relating to.
As you know, there is legally and culturally no space between a born Jew and a “converted” Jew. Their soul is the same, so their place in our culture has to be like-wise, the same.
If you were to go to a Rabbi and ask him about the symbolism, and the relation of a convert to our commuity, you may have your eyes opened.
Hyechiel – When you stated the garment is like a tallis; a connection to the Divine that is actually what I was saying. I agree about people who choose to convert to Judaism being the same spiritually as a natural born Jewish person. However, I was making a distinction in relation to someone who isn’t honest about seeking God. So, I interpreted that verse to be about a person who grabs onto the garment of a Jew (which is a connection to the Divine) and is not actually seeking Him (God), but is looking for a religion to make them a “good” person. People do it with other religions too, but to me it is much more significant because it IS a Jewish person they are grabbing onto.
There’s more to it than just this verse though. I think it’s talking about the times we live in now. Perhaps even speaking of the Hebrew roots movement. I’m not sure.
The book of Zechariah speaks a lot about other nations coming to recognise the God of Israel and to worship Him along with Israel. In chapter 2 it says “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for, behold! I will come and dwell in your midst, says the Lord. And many nations shall join the Lord on that day, and they shall be My people; and I will dwell in your midst and you shall know that the Lord of Hosts sent me to you.” Chapter 9 says, “I will cut off the pride of the Philistines. And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his detestable things from between his teeth, and he also shall be a remnant for our God; and he shall be as a chief in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite.” Chapter 13 says “I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no longer be mentioned.” In chapter 14, “And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one… And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles.”
It makes sense to me that 8:23 has a similar theme: the idea that other nations will come to a true knowledge of God, a real and positive relationship with Him, and it will be something that they learnt from the Jewish people. Elsewhere in the Bible God says that Israel is his witness, in following the ways He revealed to them to preserve that, and a blessing to the world. Chapter 8 of Zechariah is a very positive prophecy, and if you look at the verse that you’ve mentioned in context you will see that what these people are doing is a good thing rather than a hypocritical one “So said the Lord of Hosts: [There will] yet [be a time] that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities shall come. And the inhabitants of one shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go to pray before the Lord and to entreat the Lord of Hosts. I, too, will go.’ And many peoples and powerful nations shall come to entreat the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
This is not even necessarily a passage about conversion. It’s about the fact that the Jews who know and love God are holding a special relationship with Him, and that one day when Zechariah’s prophecies come to pass other nations will see the same light and go with the Jews to seek their God, our Creator.
If you interpret the symbols in some other way, then I guess you aren’t looking at the literal meaning of the passage. You’re taking the picture and letting it illustrate something else you want to say. It’s okay to do that sort of thing sometimes, but only when you are sure that the framework you’re using does line up with the literal meaning of Tanach, and when you don’t pretend that the new idea is the plain meaning of this prophecy.
When you say it could be connected to the Hebrew roots movement, I think you’re closer to the point. The early Christians did think that when Gentiles came to the Christian faith, they were joining the Jewish followers of (who they thought was) the Jewish Messiah. So they were building their ideas on this prophetic image of the nations coming to understand Israel’s God and join in one international worship of Him.
Personally I do not believe that the knowledge of God revolves around the knowledge of Jesus. It makes more sense to me that in the time described by Zechariah, the worship of Jesus will stop and it will be clear that Torah observant traditional Jews do have an obedient relationship with God, which is Gentiles can learn from as well. Even now we can learn from it. But for sure, if we’re talking about the debate within Christianity, I think it’s more in line with the New Testament to suggest that Gentile Christians have joined with the original Jewish following of Jesus… The Apostles would have seen this according to the mindset of Zechariah, where one Kingdom will exist but Israel will remain special within it. Again though, I don’t think that belief in Jesus is the only way for Jews or Gentiles to be in this Kingdom.
I typed a lot, so just to emphasise the main point: the context of Zechariah 8:23 is a positive and beautiful hope for the future, rather than a picture of hypocrites. See the verses together:
“So said the Lord of Hosts: [There will] yet [be a time] that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities shall come. And the inhabitants of one shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go to pray before the Lord and to entreat the Lord of Hosts. I, too, will go.’ And many peoples and powerful nations shall come to entreat the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”
One more item; many “Arabs” are of Jeewish origin and coming back to their ancistreal faith. Same with Etheopians and many from India and Shephard; i.e., Spain and Portugal. Also, in the past century, over a million Christians have converted to Judaism. Not, with all the negativity they also endure, an insignifacate number.
Zach may be very happy to see his words bearing fruit!
Maybe I worded to broadly? I was trying to help the other person to see beyond our current cultural interpretation. To me, it is con-current to what we needed to hear, after the wars and exiles.
The Hindus are a good example of what you are talking about, though. They are saing that they believe in one god, but see Him in different ways and have symbls for this, not as gos as in centuries past.
Also, the oldest alphabet of Japan? It is pre-Aramaic form, and many of their words are Hebrew; then there are the Unitarians, who are coming to G-d as Jsus taught, not Augustus of Hippo and his school. So there is much to supportyour thinking.
I hope you re-read what I wrote and see that I ws stating a positive interpretation of what Zachariah said.
I was just replying to Teresa’s comment, I wasn’t disputing yours or anything! It is really meaningful to get glimpses into how different nations and cultures and people come closer to God in this time.
You posted one of the best items on this blog, “Duties of the Heart.”
I hope you do not mind, I am posting it again, in your honor, so more can benefit from the wisdom.
By the way Teresa,
I read something helpful about motivations and
self-righteousness that relates to some things you have written here in
comments, and on your blog. I want to share it because it has helped me a
The quote comes from the 11th century Jewish book ˜Chovot HaLevavot ˜The
Duties of the Heart.” Man is made up of body and soul; and both alike are
given us by the beneficence of the Creator. The one is visible, and the other
invisible. We are therefore bound to serve Him with a twofold service. That of
the body and its members can be fulfilled by the visible activities of man; but
the second is a hidden service, which is the fulfilment of the duties of the
heartâ€”to acknowledge the Unity of God in our hearts, to believe in Him, to love
Him, resign our souls to Him, and make His name the unifying central thought of
all our conduct.
Sometimes when we question our motivations, it makes us hesitant to do things
that are righteous because we are worried about whether we are being
self-righteous in our hearts. But I think that God has given us duties in our
actions, and duties in our hearts, and although the two need to be offered to
Him together, sometimes they are a bit separate
Personally, I know that I struggle with both pride and insecurity, which can
make me very uncertain about sharing things that I have learnt or about
expressing love for God in public. What if I am doing it to impress other people?
I have decided not to let this cripple me, because I do want to share things
that are precious for other people to see, and I do want to share love with God
in a community together. So here is what I learnt from Chovot HaLevavot. We can
let the duties of our heart and the duties of our actions be somewhat separate,
and pray that God will help us bring both halves of obedience together before
Him. This means that if something is a righteous action, we should do it, just
because it is the right thing to do. Don’t question your motivations, just do
whatever is an act of kindness for other people and obedience to God. And then,
when you’re doing those things, you can work on the integrity of your heart. If
were devoted to letting go of pride and learning humility, then we will be able
to eventually bring that offering to God as well as the offering of the good
actions were already doing. Don’t wait until your heart is fully humble before
you start to obey what you know God wants, and don’t wait for your habits to be
fully obedient before you reach out in humility. Just bring them as two
offerings, and God will work in your life to make a complete picture out of them
so that your obedience is alive with a heart of sincerity. Don’t be crippled
from doing what you know is right by questioning your motivations just do
kindness and then look to God to help you with humility about it.
Teresa, it is not the source, as much as the direction. I thank you, and I hope that many may benefit from the quote.
By the way Teresa, I read something helpful about motivations and self-righteousness that relates to some things you have written here in comments, and on your blog. I want to share it because it has helped me a lot.
The quote comes from the 11th century Jewish book ‘Chovot HaLevavot’ (‘The Duties of the Heart’).
“Man is made up of body and soul; and both alike are given us by the beneficence of the Creator. The one is visible, and the other invisible. We are therefore bound to serve Him with a twofold service. That of the body and its members can be fulfilled by the visible activities of man; but the second is a hidden service, which is the fulfilment of the duties of the heart—to acknowledge the Unity of God in our hearts, to believe in Him, to love Him, resign our souls to Him, and make His name the unifying central thought of all our conduct.”
Sometimes when we question our motivations, it makes us hesitant to do things that are righteous because we are worried about whether we are being self-righteous in our hearts. But I think that God has given us duties in our actions, and duties in our hearts, and although the two need to be offered to Him together, sometimes they are a bit separate.
Personally, I know that I struggle with both pride and insecurity, which can make me very uncertain about sharing things that I have learnt or about expressing love for God in public. What if I’m doing it to impress other people? I have decided not to let this cripple me, because I do want to share things that are precious for other people to see, and I do want to share love with God in a community together. So here’s what I learnt from Chovot HaLevavot. We can let the duties of our heart and the duties of our actions be somewhat separate, and pray that God will help us bring both halves of obedience together before Him. This means that if something is a righteous action, we should do it, just because it’s the right thing to do. Don’t question your motivations, just do whatever is an act of kindness for other people and obedience to God. And then, when you’re doing those things, you can work on the integrity of your heart. If we’re devoted to letting go of pride and learning humility, then we will be able to eventually bring that offering to God as well as the offering of the good actions we’re already doing. Don’t wait until your heart is fully humble before you start to obey what you know God wants, and don’t wait for your habits to be fully obedient before you reach out in humility. Just bring them as two offerings, and God will work in your life to make a complete picture out of them so that your obedience is alive with a heart of sincerity. Don’t be crippled from doing what you know is right by questioning your motivations… just do kindness and then look to God to help you with humility about it.
Oops! I may have erred, and give the wrong name. both of you do right by what we have here, even if I do more learning than agreeing.
I’m going to back out of commenting in this blog because I got off topic. But I do want to keep up with the dialogue between Freedom and YPF 🙂
Of course, this wasn’t even the blog where they were having a discussion 🙂 *smh*
Something to consider: A prophet stated: “Rule upon rule, precept upon precept”. If righteousness was dependent only on laws, why would he say this?
Faith and obedience go hand in hand when you are in a relationship with God. Your faith equals obedience and is credited to you as righteousness – (i.e., Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness because he trusted God and was willing to obey what He told him to do, even though he didn’t understand it).
Even though Abraham knew that murder was wrong (reference Cain), still he did not judge God’s command or assume He was going to give him another child. He believed that God could raise Isaac from the dead because God said Isaac was the one to follow Abraham. Who are Abraham’s children? Those who are willing to disobey the very laws God put into place because God said so. THAT is faith and obedience. Faith in God’s perfect nature and righteousness.
God told Hosea to marry an adulteress. Even though God had said adultery was sinful and the one who committed it was to be punished by death, He told him to do it. He even told him to take her back after she had done it again, instead of being obedient to the law and having her stoned. Hosea was obedient to God alone. The law is NOT God. Isn’t choosing the law over what God is saying idolatry?
So, was God wrong to tell them to do this? Absolutely not! To think that God is wrong in ANY way is to call Him a liar, God forbid! Both things He said to do are wrong according to the laws He set up for US, but God is above the law in every way.
God is not accountable to anyone! How dare we judge HIM by the laws He gave us! If He shows us the Truth and we won’t accept it because we think it’s wrong, what does that say to Him? That isn’t faith in Him, that is faith in our own understanding and passing judgement ON Him.
How dare we decide to know His will by our foolishness? How dare we tell Him He cannot do something because we don’t agree with the way He chooses to do it. He is the potter and we the clay. He is the Creator and we are the created.
But back to faith and obedience. It is common to try to have faith without works and works without faith, but you cannot honestly have one without the other. Consider the people who don’t believe in God. Those people obey what their spirit knows are righteous acts because we are made in His image and likeness, but without faith in God they are empty works. Things done to make themselves feel like a “good” person in an attempt to fill the spiritual void that is made for God alone.
So, you have faith in God and know that He is gracious, merciful, forgiving and loving, are you PRESUMING a true relationship with Him without joining faith and obedience? But one will not work without the other. Can you please God without both?
He is faithful and just. We are not and cannot be like Him. We only know what He has shown us about Himself. Without the Holy Spirit we are left in the dark because it is He who opens our eyes and ears. He is the one who illuminates the Scriptures to show us the true meaning in life; that our finite minds can’t comprehend any Truth on our own. We can scratch the surface of things but even this understanding is a gift, but we cannot fathom the depths or breadth of them.
When our heart and soul cry out to Him in honesty and humility He hears us. Not because we are doing something good or righteous, but out of His very perfect nature, love and faithfulness to His covenant, He hears. King David spoke of having a broken and contrite heart and it being pleasing to God. When we look at our obedience without faith, we insult Him. When we say we trust in Him, but don’t show it by obeying Him alone, we lie to Him and ourselves.
Everyone knows as children we learn by example, not just by someone telling us it is right or wrong. With God, we learn by His nature as revealed by the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. We learn what is right and wrong by what He says AND what HE does.
Without an understanding of the intent behind the law and statues we can’t truly see why they were given and that is where we decide to be obedient, or stubborn and rebellious. Stubbornness and rebellion are like idolatry and witchcraft. When we will not allow our eyes to be opened, nor our ears to hear we are being stubborn and rebellious.
When we presume to know the mind of God and His plans, we are being stubborn and rebellious and not trusting Him. Is there nothing that God cannot do? Is He required to abide by our “alleged” understanding or our limited interpretation of His holy Words?
We are unworthy servants and there is nothing we can do to be worthy. We cannot attain His righteousness, no matter the level of faith or our best ability to obey the law. But He in His love and mercy accepted our poor offerings of faith and obedience, even though they never made us worthy.
Therefore, as we can never be worthy, He alone had to provide One who is worthy for us. The One who can fulfill His requirement of perfection in every way. What mere man could ever do this? NO ONE, EVER ! So, in order to provide that requirement of worthiness, One had to come who could attain it. Have we ever known anyone who has done this? There is only the One and no other. Yet, we in our stubbornness and rebellion will not accept His One because in our foolish human wisdom it goes against what we “think” we understand about Him and the law. Again, who are we to question how He provides His will?
Nothing is beyond His power to do. We slap Him in the face when we refuse to accept how HE provides to justify us. That’s why God told us to walk humbly with Him.
What true prophet spoke on his own merit? How many men have claimed to be the Messiah, yet spoke and acted according to his frail understanding and even failed at that?
If we cannot see that faith and obedience will never make us worthy, how will we ever understand it is the humble, honest heart and spirit of man He desires, but accepts only out of His mercy and grace?
If God spoke through mere men who were sinful, how much more will He provide the One who is not?
No one can forgive our sins, but God alone. So, we remain unworthy, even if we listen to Him, obey the law and repent through what He said to the prophets He provided.
What do we think is most important to Him? Physical things, or spiritual things? Establishing physical peace on earth only covers a portion. How will He establish peace for His people spiritually?
If we, as the created, only go by what we perceive He has planned, we in fact are saying that God cannot do His will unless we approve of how He chooses to do it. We are NOT and never will be privy to His infinite power and wisdom.
Therefore, if He has decided to reveal Himself physically and spiritually through someone who IS worthy, who are we to say no, you cannot do this thing? If stubbornness and rebellion won’t accept His ways, how much more does it reject His Provision?
As we cannot fully understand Him, we have no right to tell Him how He must do something. If He chooses to provide Someone who IS sinless, that person will be as perfectly holy as He is. They cannot be less, or they are only men.
If angels can appear as men, how much more the Son? God is spirit and He shares His glory with no one. Therefore, if Someone comes down to earth according to God’s will who is Holy, Sinless and Worthy, is it not God who enclosed this Someone in a physical body so we can interact with Him on a more physical level? Rejecting the Son is rejecting our Heavenly Father, our very creator. Again, we are the created and have no right as sinful, stubborn, rebellious and wicked creations to judge Him or His ways.
So, we now have the choice. Do we trust Him and His Providence or do we use our pride and the law to judge Him and what He chooses to do?
No, we humble ourselves, search the Scriptures and learn through the Holy Spirit what He wills and has done on our behalf. So, let us now seal our mouths, examine our hearts, lean not on our own understanding and receive HIS wisdom.
May He be glorified forever and His will be done.
Oops, when I said US I meant Israel O.O
Addendum: God said, “Come let us reason together” – NOT “Here are the laws now you guys go and reason them out and get back to me”.
That wasn’t from me. I was only blogging about faith and obedience being joined together. Then the rest just spilled out.
I keep reading your request that I find a reference for you. I have not found where you have done so, yourself, so I looked, and found one which gives both sides of the discussion.
Many here may also benefit from this. I read most of it and find little I have not already read-elsewhere, but it is always good to refreash one’s memory.
Reblogged this on 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources.