Believe in His Prophets – 2Chronicles 20:20

Believe in His Prophets – 2Chronicles 20:20

It is virtuous to believe in God’s prophets. It is not always easy to believe in the prophets. Sometimes the prophets were commissioned to deliver harsh words of rebuke. Messages that expose corruption, hypocrisy and that upset the apple-cart of spiritual complacency. People like to think that their understanding of spirituality is complete and refined and these same people like to judge themselves favorably according to their own spiritual standards. The prophets were sent to destroy the self-delusion of these people who were so self-satisfied.

Sometimes the prophets were sent by God to encourage the people to take a course of action that may seem completely illogical from a human perspective. The prophets often encouraged Israel to abandon fear and plans of self-defense and to place all of their trust in God. It was not easy to accept these messages that were delivered by the prophets of Israel.

It would be so much easier to dismiss the prophet as a madman or as a fraud.

Those who would reject the prophet and his message did not need to look at themselves as people who are taking a stance against God. The human power for self-delusion is almost unlimited. People could build an entire spiritual framework in which that which is good and Godly is defined as evil and that which is evil is defined as good (Isaiah 5:20). People who operate under this delusion of a false spiritual framework will consider a man of God to be evil. The fortress of petty religiosity that these people have erected for themselves will give them the strength and the confidence to persecute and even to kill the true prophet.

Even in a corrupt society that has built itself a complex structure of crooked spirituality God will find good people. These are people that have the humility to suspect that their concept of Godliness may not be as perfect as they would like to believe. These would be people who take rebuke, not as a trigger to persecute the messenger, but as an occasion for introspection. These are people who have the moral courage to reevaluate and correct the spiritual structure that they have erected for themselves.

It is good and Godly to accept the prophet sent by God and it is evil and ungodly to reject him.

But at the same time, Israel has a serious responsibility to reject a fraudulent messenger. Israel was entrusted with a message from God, they were appointed as God’s witnesses to the world and they were charged with the mission of preserving that message. Throughout history men arose with fraudulent messages that threatened to corrupt the testimony of Israel. It is Israel duty to reject these imposters and to maintain their loyalty to the truth with which the nation was entrusted.

Whenever a claimant to prophecy is rejected it is easy to cast the rejecters in the evil light of petty, hypocritical legalists. It is easy to say that those who rejected the visionary were threatened by the truth of the message that was brought to them and that they were too haughty to be able to accept the rebuke that was delivered to them.

But is this always the case? Israel is charged with the mission of destroying false prophets (Deuteronomy 13:6). Any time Israel moves to discharge this holy duty they can be accused of self-centered hypocrisy.

A holy rejection of a false prophet will be rooted in love for God (Deuteronomy 13:4). Before we are encouraged to believe in God’s prophets we are encouraged to believe in God (2Chronicles 20:20). After all, this is Israel’s mission, to testify to the world that all of the devotion that humanity can muster ought to be directed above and beyond all of nature to the One God who created it all (Isaiah 43:10).

When a prophet came with a message that would have us redirect our devotion then our loyalty to God demands that we reject him together with his evil message. Our love for God does not allow us to bend our hearts towards any one of His creations. And our love for God gives us the strength and the fortitude to face all of our accusers with equanimity. When the Jew was being burned at the stake under the accusation that he is a small-minded, self-centered, petty, hypocritical legalist, his love for God did not waver. When those who accepted the message of the false prophet cast themselves in the role of the humble and trusting people who are obedient to God’s message to the degree of total self-effacement, while at the same time they cast the Jew in the role of the arrogant, stubborn, inflexible, self-deluded rebel against God – the Jew was empowered by His love for God to remain strong.

This love for God survived 2000 years of hell on earth and it burned brighter than all of the persecutions that tried to extinguish that love (Song of Solomon 8:7). And it is the fire of that love that will eventually light up the world with light and happiness (Isaiah 60:3).

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85 Responses to Believe in His Prophets – 2Chronicles 20:20

  1. Paul summers says:

    Hello.
    Do you think that testing and provoking Gods statutes acceptable? Rejecting Gods prophets and His Son Messiah Jeshua is not I think excuseable. Israel goes round in a perpetual cycle of denial. Yes 2000 years of persecution. All delegated authority from Adonai Himself. If you take the time and read your writings there is much much more to come, until you see Him who was pierced. Then Israel will benifit from Gods promises for your land and people.

    • Annelise says:

      It’s the claim you are making that he is testing. Faith in the New Testament claims is different from faith in God, and separate from faith in the Torah… because if it is false then so much is lost. So how would acceptance of the Torah cause someone to consider this new claim? Yisroel is testing your idea in light of the things that the Torah teaches Israel to be very careful about.

      • Annelise says:

        “If you take the time and read your writings there is much much more to come…”

        Have you ever read a book, then watched the film made out of the same book and felt like the film was very different from how you imagined the story to be… but then, going back to the book, it seems impossible to get the film-maker’s version out of your mind?

        I believe that looking into Tanach and the Jewish experience to see whether Christianity might be true is a valid thing to do, because this man claimed to be the only way to the Father. If he was right then he should be followed. But the thing is, be careful not to read the book (Tanach) through the eyes of the film (the things that seem big, important, and real through Christian eyes).

        • Annelise says:

          I’m assuming that you’re Protestant by the way… the above thought is kind of about ‘sola scriptura’ etc.

          • June Volk says:

            Be careful, Annelise! To reject The Prophet that Moses warned my people about is to be cut off from Israel! As a Gentile, He Is your light! He Is The Light to lighten the Gentiles and The Glory of my people, Israel.

          • Annelise says:

            June you know that I have been painstakingly and painfully careful, and (for the last year, in a different way) still am. Thanks for the reminder. I know that my words are jarring because you believe that there should be no end to the carefulness about Jesus. But in my understanding, the carefulness is only about obedience to God, whatever that would be. And I also believe that to stand with (or in any way honour) Jesus-following if there is no proper reason for me to accept it, that I can perceive or accept, would be an absolute trampling of many deeply important things from the testimony and also in the lives of observant Jews.

            Thank you for your love, which I can hear even here. I hope that you and Shelly are well.
            Annelise

    • June Volk says:

      Hi Paul,
      The prophets warn the nations that they shall be judged according to how they treated Israel! I do believe as a Jewish believer in Yeshua that God has been warning my people for 2,000 years to turn to Him, through Seeing Him As He Is. However, I’m encouraging you to love my people and pray for my people and have a heart for my people to Come to the knowledge of God through the Spriit of Revelation. I hope your heart is filled with love for my people – Yeshua wept over Jerusalem …

      • Annelise says:

        Many people cry, and have cried, for Yerushalayim. I pray for their yearning to be answered now and in the right time, with the nearest closeness of God in galut and in that place.

        “There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and innumerable maidens. My dove, my perfect one, is but one; she is one to her mother, she is the pure one of she who bore her; daughters saw her and praised her, queens and concubines, and they lauded her; Who is this who looks forth like the dawn, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, awesome as the bannered legions?”

        “My dove, in the clefts of the rock, in the coverture of the steps, show me your appearance, let me hear your voice, for your voice is pleasant and your appearance is comely.”

        • June Volk says:

          “For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.”

          “And I will betroth thee unto Me in faithfulness. Then thou shalt know the LORD.”

          • Annelise says:

            Amazing promises.

          • Annelise says:

            “When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart”

          • Annelise says:

            I think that “the Lord their God and David their king” doesn’t incline the listener to expect the king in David’s kingdom to *be* God.

            It would more likely be expected that one like David would be one who loved God and stood on behalf of God. But as in the expression of this sentence, “the Lord their God and David their king,” that the king will be sought after in a separate way.

          • Annelise says:

            (Again, you can’t even consider that if your caution about Jesus is endless. But if your caution is only about hearing and following God, then the question, at least, is necessary.)

  2. June Volk says:

    The Shema: Hear O Israel The LORD thy God is One LORD … For 2,000 years Jews (The Apostles and most of the first century church were Jews) and Gentiles who have come to faith in The Holy One of Israel (Hashem), have been calling Jesus/Yeshua LORD … Either He Is God incarnate – The Holy One of Israel – or not … that is the question!

    I believe Jesus/Yeshua Is The LORD God of Israel and what He said is true:
    “Before Abraham was I AM”
    “I and The Father are One”.
    “No man comes to The Father but by/through Me.”

    Israel came into the presence of God through The Aaronic Priesthood …
    You are right in your analogy: Israel did NOT expect Messiah to be God incarnate or:
    The Prophet – (Moses Warned About)
    The King of The Jews (The Greater David) –
    The High Priest – (Read The Book of Hebrews)

    But – He Was And Is And Is To Come!

    • David says:

      There is another reading to your quotes:

      “Before Abraham was, I am he”, meaning I was “he” that God planned from the beginning. Not that Jesus preexisted himself, but that God planned him from the beginning.

      “I and the Father are one”, meaning one in purpose, not one in substance. Just as Christians strive to be one in Jesus.

      “No man comes to the Father but by me”, because God designed it so that Jesus would reveal God in a way not yet revealed; to exemplify and personify God, not that he was God. Just as Jews used to come to God through the literal law, now the whole world may come to God through the law personified and fulfilled in Jesus.

      The end purpose is still the same, to come to God who is is life, truth and all that is good, and the principles upon which the law is based are still the same. The sum of the law is truth; Jesus is truth (the way, the truth and the life).

      • junzey says:

        “Before Abraham was, I am he”, meaning I was “he” that God planned from the beginning. Not that Jesus preexisted himself, but that God planned him from the beginning.
        Hi David,

        I must begin by saying to Annelise that I felt to respond to you, David, and this is separate from my responding to Annelise in forum – I desire to be personal in e-mail with Annelise.

        Your above explanation to Jesus saying: Before Abraham was I am he … is different from the way I understand what Jesus was saying in that passage: In Exodus 33 where Moses spoke to the LORD at the tent of meeting ‘face to face’ as one speaks to an only friend, Moses said, “If I have found favor in Your sight, show me Your glory” … this same LORD responded, “No man can see my face and live”. However He told Moses He would pass by him hidding Moses in ‘the cleft of the rock’ and Moses could see His back part! … This SAME LORD hid Moses and passed by Moses and Moses saw His back part … Who Was This LORD that was transformed into God’s Glory???

        The Mount of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah … they were with The LORD and recognizable to the disciples. In Revelations, when He returns, on His Vesture will be written: King of Kings and LORD of Lords … Who Is This One? Is It Not God Incarnate?

        I believe He (The Almighty God) is in essence many spirits and reveals Himself in different ‘ways’ to man: As the Angel of the Lord; Melchezedek; (wresling with Jacob) the man; the angel; I have my God ‘face to face’ and my life is preserved! To Samson’s parents – disappeared in fire! To Abraham when he told Sarah to kill the fatted calf and The Lord promised to destroy Sodam & Gemorah; As the gardner; As a man walking on the road with His disciples on the road to Emmaus … In FIRE … with Shadrach, Michach and Abendigo the 4th man with them … In Genesis: In the beginning God; Holy Spirit hovered over the waters; God said – Let there be light! (The Word spoke – Ysshua/Jesus Is The Word made flesh) and in verse 26 of Genesis: Let Us make man in Our image after Our likeness and He created him male and female He created them … John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.. etc…

        I see Yeshua/Jesus and The Father as One in essence showing Himself to man, to the angels and to the principalities and powers as He Sees Fit. To worship a ‘man’ or anything created is idolatry … Yeshua/Jesus Is Our Creator … there is only One God … One King … One Faith … One Baptixm/Mikvah …

        I believe Yeshua/Jesus Is The Holy One of Israel … The Book of Hebrews reveals His Divinity … If Yeshua/Jesus is Not Divine – then He Is NOT Hashem. He came as The Son of Man – went to the Cross and suffered for us so He might accomplish waht He Came to do … to be The Son of God (Psalm 2 – heir of ALL things) … and He Has the power and authority to bring ‘the first born son – Israel’ to Glory with Him, so Israel might become a light to the nations. Now, Jesus Is the Light To Lighten The Gentiles (nations) – and – The Glory of His People, Israel!
        With Appreciation & Respect,
        June

        • David says:

          I noticed that you sometimes write LORD in connection with Jesus. The NT never does this.

          Most Christian English bible translations now have developed the custom to use “LORD” all caps in place of YHWH. When “Lord” is used with capital “L” and lowercase otherwise it can refer to anyone for example, Jesus, God, or another person. If you read and just say YHWH when you see LORD and say lord when you see “Lord” then you’ll also see that YHWH (LORD) is never used in connection with Jesus in the NT.

          • junzey says:

            Hi Again, David,
            Please see my reply in to your first statement in three parts – two at the bottom of this page.

            I understand the Hebrew YHWH and that is exactly why I wrote LORD in the manner I did. I believe in the diety of Messiah/Christ. It is shown in the OT and in the NT, you are correct about it being written Lord (lower case letters ord)… except in Revelations when He returns as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords … Might have something to do with the Greek???

            The diety of Messiah was Not expected by my Jewish people. I don’t know if my people expected Messiah to be the Greater David or Avenu Malkenu (my Father my King) I know they expected Messiah to be The Prophet.
            With Respect,
            June Volk

          • junzey says:

            In Revelations it reads: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

            He has called us to be Kings and Priest to His Father – in That Day the work in us will be completed (we will be like Him) … and for Israel … Zachariah 12 tells us they will repent with mourning and become their Messiah’s Priest’s in the earth.

            The OT refers to God Almighty YHWH as LORD in the passages from Exodus 33; with Abraham speaking to the LORD in Genesis about Sodom and Gemorah and many other passages when He revealed Himself to man in appearances.

            With Respect,
            June Volk

          • junzey says:

            Hi David,
            I’m aware of ALL you wrote in Hebrew, Greek, and Hebraic understanding of the Words – Names – etc …

            In understanding names from the OT – one can take it symbolically only or literally only. I read the bible both symbolically and literally. That was the mistake our people had by not seeing Jesus as Messiah – He said He would come again – so ALL that was written about Him would be fulfilled – they took the meanings of the prophecies ‘just’ naturally (there is not peace in the earth – and His Kingdome is not set up in Jerusalem – and Israel is Not now a light to the nations) – not seeing the literal truth of What God was about to accomplish though the Life of Yeshua/Jesus. For example:

            When it was prophesied that His Name would be called Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14) this referred specifically to the One the virgin (alma – we know the Hebraic debate on alma & bethulah – we believe Meriam/Mary was a virgin) would birth. And His Name shall be called Immanuel – God With Us [God would literally be in earth through Yeshua/Jesus] (emphasis mine) Matthew quoted Isaiah 7:14 in Chapter 1 Verse 23 – Very specific meaning of identifying Yeshua/Jesus. It was not just symbolic – it was itendifying Who Yeshua/Jesus was.

            Corinthains 1:30 “But of Him you are in Messiah/Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God – and righteousness and sanctification and redemption … This too is literal – He Has become our righteousness.

            Jeremiah 23:5,6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (When He returns as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS).

            Jeremiah 33:16, “In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (If you believe this will literally happen to Judah and Jerusalem – why don’t you believe God was literal in His discription of Immanuel – God With Us – or God our righeousness?)

            With Respect,
            June
            I appreciate your intellect and study, David, and your heart for Truth!

          • David says:

            Hi June,

            You wrote regarding revelation 17:4 and 19:16:

            “except in Revelations when He returns as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords … Might have something to do with the Greek???”

            Maybe you’ve found a bible translation out there like that somewhere, but I think you’ve made a typo.

            All the English translations I’ve come across read either:

            “KING OF KINGS LORD OF LORDS” (ALL CAPS)

            The above all caps would be an exception to my earlier post regarding LORD = YWYH. We shouldn’t understand it to mean God of Gods

            More commonly we find a combination of upper and lower case or all lower case such as:

            “King of kings Lord of lords”

            In no case have I seen KING of Kings and LORD of Lords as you have written above.

            All through revelation we see the distinction continue as in the epistles between God and Jesus. The two are not confused or blended together. If you read the salutations of each epistle within the first few paragraphs, without exception, the two are spoken of as two distinct and separate entities. If they were one in the same there’d be no need to mention both individually. So then the bible always talks about them as separate and never do we read a clear statement that Jesus is God or God is Jesus. That would be a huge new revelation; and no clear statement?

            I don’t see anywhere in your comment about names where we have to take it literally and as I pointed out names are mostly symbolic. God is indeed with us in Jesus, not that Jesus is God, nowhere does it say YHWH “incarnated” himself into Jesus. I’m not saying He couldn’t have if He had wanted to, but it doesn’t say that. It says the spirit of God overshadowed Mary. If Jesus were God it would be easy enough to just say so instead of saying instead that he is at the right hand of God. And Jesus himself denied that he was God, why deny it if He is in fact truly God? Never do we have Jesus saying “I am God.” We have words like I am in the Father and the father is in me. But then we have similar language about Christians in general being in Christ and I and Christ are separate entities. If not then I am God according to that logic. Of course I know you aren’t saying that. I’m just pointing out there is no clear verse say Jesus is God. But I think I’m repeating myself here, sorry.

            The disagreement or differing opinions arise I think because Jesus is so close to God as no other agent of God was in the past, and has been given so much from God; all authority on heaven and earth. Basically, God gave Him everything but God himself is the way I look at it, so then they must remain two distinct entities in our minds. I look at it as everything he has and is and says and does, as he himself claimed, was granted to him from God, his Father. And it is so because God found him to be worthy. It wasn’t just randomness on God’s part. Jesus did the work that we couldn’t do. So, therefore when I see him doing things or exercising authority that God might have or normally do such as maybe King of kings and Lord of lords as in Revelations, I know and remember it is because he was granted that authority from God, I don’t mix the two up.

  3. Annelise says:

    “Either He Is God incarnate – The Holy One of Israel – or not … that is the question!”

    It is a question, but it’s not the only question 🙂

    • Annelise says:

      Do you think that God could come intimately close to Israel, restoring His glory to you while also restoring creation… and renewing the covenant around His presence with us… in any other way than how the Christian scriptures describe?

      What if Jesus turned out to be a mere human, and there would never be an incarnation of God? Would you still look forward to the future restoration you mentioned, knowing it would be a true gift? Or would something be lacking?

  4. June Volk says:

    Annelise –
    You need to be ‘born again’ to understand why The Gospel has become foolishness to you, (the Gentiles) and to my people, Jesus, is a stumblingblock!

    I came to know The Holy One of Israel personally through the Spririt of Wisdom and Revelation in the Knowledge of God (Ephesians 1:17). I’m a Jew who believes in The Holy One of Israel. My life has been touched by HIM and I have NEVER been the same!

    The Holy Scriptures are from The Torah to The Book of Revelation! There have been many errors made by The Church, as there have been errors by The People of Israel! That does not change the writings – or the warnings of the Prophets. The Scriptures speak!

    I love you, Annelise, but you sound more like the enemies of The Gospel, which are my people for your sake (the Gentiles) … Romans 11:28 … You need to shuva/repent and be Saved!

  5. June
    This is not my conversation – but if you start throwing around terms like “enemies of the gospel” I will ask you to stop. If you have something of substance to say – a quote from Scripture or a logical or spiritual argument – go right ahead – but to start vilifying people just because they do not agree with your experience is not something that I would like to be setting a platform for.

    • June Volk says:

      Hi My Pharisee Friend,
      I wanted to thank you for writing, this is an open conversation. Annelise and I are dear friends and you are welcome to join in with us. I realize her quest for God and love her for it. She is genuine in her desire to know truth.
      I want you to know that I wasn’t throwing out terms to Annelise becasue she doesn’t agree with me, but as you wrote I was quoting Scripture:

      25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
      “The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
      27 And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins.”
      28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (Romans 11:25-31).

      I hope this helps you to see my heart is after the heart of God, the Word of God, not wanting to prove anything. My heart is for Annelise to reconsider her position because she is a Gentile – and these are the times of the Gentiles.
      These Scriptures reveal Israel, as a nation, will Not come to Salvatiion until … the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. My heart and prayer for my people, are you Jewish, is to come before The Holy One of Israel – and cry out to Him to See His Holy Word, or Scriptures – as it is written! And for the Gentiles to have a love and burden for my people Israel, and for God’s Land – Israel.

      Hope this helps for us to be friends 🙂

      Wtih Blessings,
      June

  6. June
    When I spoke of Scripture I meant the book that was confirmed by God’s firstborn son – in that holy book it says that Israel will come to salvation when they turn back to God according to all that Moses commanded us (Deuteronomy 30:2) – then all of the world will serve God with one resolve (Zephaniah 3:9) – the Gentiles as a group will come to the light by the light of Israel (Isaiah 60:3)
    Meanwhile Israel’s duty is to remain loyal to the covenant (Psalm 44:18) – as for the Gentiles – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/all-the-nations/

  7. June Volk says:

    My Pharisee Friend,
    Don’t forget Zechariah 12 … it is a Serious Mistake to Neglect The New Covenant which begins in Jeremiah 31:31!

  8. June Volk says:

    “Do you think that God could come intimately close to Israel, restoring His glory to you while also restoring creation… and renewing the covenant around His presence with us… in any other way than how the Christian scriptures describe?”
    Hi Again, Annelise,
    I think it is important for me to answer your above question:

    Did you know that the first time Christian/Messiah, Follower of Jesus/Yeshua, is mentioned is in the Book of Acts, to the Church at Antioch, in a derogatory manner? Those Messiah Followers/Christians!!!

    In Greek Christian means Following The Anointed One/Messiah … it is His Title Christ/Anointed One Messiah – and those who believe follow Him, or His teachings.

    The Scriptures are ALL Hebraic/Jewish – and every writer of the Scritpures – possibly with the exception of Luke (although some scholars believe that Luke was Jewish) were Jews.

    So you ask, or say, “the Christian scriptures” … there is no such thing!!! The Scriptures are speaking about God and the coming of HIS Anointed One in the OT – – – and the NT speaks of what was written about Him/Jesus and what He fulfilled. They are ALL Hebraic/Jewish Writings.

    In otherwords, Jesus/Yeshua did Not come to start another religion – Christianity – He Came to Fulfill what was written about Him. And, if you believe what He said and taught and in His Resurrection that (He’s ALIVE) – you become a ‘Follower of The Messiah’ or as the world would say in Greek – a Christian.

    Yeshua/Jesus Himself said in Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to detroy but to fulfill.”

    I hope this answers your question, Annelise.
    With Love,
    June

  9. Annelise says:

    Shalom June,

    I don’t think that you answered the question, you just told me that you think I have the wrong feelings about the word ‘Christian’. If you look at my question again, maybe disregard that word and see what I meant to ask.

    Emphasising that Yeshua’s name was a Hebrew name held by many other Jews, and his first followers were Jews… is that meant to convince me to worship him??

    Perhaps there is no point in us talking about reason or intellect, because you are convinced that I ‘intellectually’ dismiss the mystery that one member of a ‘relationship in God’ ‘became’ ‘human’ while deserving worship and being a physical expression of God amidst the created world. So it seems that my love of ideas is overwhelming any love I can hold for Hashem in faith. In reality, the ‘mystery’ is not where I’m applying logic. I appreciate that who God is in His very self, and even in His will, is beyond what we could probe into, define, or see! But I believe that faith, logic, and spiritual knowledge *must* work together in obedience. Once God has revealed Himself through a perceivable law and a testimony (such as Torah, a light for Israel and for nations), we should always use reason as a loyal way to obey what He has said in the situations we come across.

    If I told you that it is Jewish, and according to the New Testament, to believe that my neighbour is actually ‘the second coming of Jesus’ who has arrived before the public arrival… then you would rightly point to scriptual and New Testament logic that defies what I would be saying. That would not be intellectual pride, it would be loyalty to and a protection of the love you have for worshiping God alone. To question Jesus and even, if appropriate!, to reject his claims, is not to be an enemy of good news or a person blinded by intellectual pride from knowing Hashem in truth and faithfulness. Am I just trying to agree with the written Talmud (as you said in your email, I think) and then basing my ideas around that? I was raised in a Christian home, and know the beauty that is found in the positive parts of Christians’ faith and their life together seeking God. I felt it was truth, I felt it was fulfilling, I felt it was obedience to God that I would have (I believe) given life and death for; a personal relationship and knowledge. Why would I leave that place, to seek the relationship with Him elsewhere? It’s a good question.

    So what are we even talking about?? We could talk logic forever and not get even one step forward unless we answer each other’s legitimate questions and show cause for the actions that we are choosing to call ‘Jewish worship’ or ‘obedience to God’. But if you want to hear an experience of knowing Him deeply, could you ever listen to what your observant Jewish friends are saying about their experience of Him being true fullness? To reflect back to you the rhetoric that you (lovingly, I see it) gave to me,

    You need to respond to the covenant of love that God made with your own nation, to understand why the Torah-observant community has seemed empty to you… and to most of the nations, they are considered a joke, hypocritical, unfaithful, or simply hated? I came to know the God of your nation, the living and holy King of our world, through His grace as He has spoken to and led me to know and love Him. Always open to hear that I have made mistakes before Him, but nonetheless, my knowledge of Him has been an unspeakable blessing of His wisdom and revelation before my eyes and at my hand. As a Gentile who believes in Israel’s God, in our Creator, all life is found in knowing Him. And in having coming to see the light and truth and vast surrender that is found in traditional Judaism and in the lives of many people who have held it… believe me that I will never be the same because I’ve learnt so much from what is in their mouths and their hearts, to do it. A reflection of His heart, close by to us in our world. And the opportunity to come closer to Him in surrender and in a maturity of vision and faithfulness towards Him is one of the gifts of the clarity in their message.

    The holy scriptures are affirmed by the ones who follow the Torah of God and therefore, in seeking His heart and obeying His ways, are the holders of the testimony that is preserved in this nation. Christians and Jews have both made mistakes, plenty, but this “does not change the writings- or the warnings of the prophets…”

    I also never try to judge or understand your heart or your motivations. I can’t tell you to do teshuvah because I don’t know the depths of your relationship with God. But I can beg you come back to the path that is *truly* life, to Israel and to the world, and I can hope for you to experience that. And I can tell you adamantly to stop saying in public what you do about worshiping your rabbi, and to hold back from demeaning, confusing, and ignoring the servant of Hashem, by teaching this variant of Judaism that does not have grounds for acceptance into the love of those who love His commandments.

    Have you ever shared a Shabbat meal with observant Jews, and when you have been there, deeply appreciated the connection that they have with Him in offering their table, their day, and their lives to Him in true acceptance of the covenant? Do you know what it is like for them to stand lifnei Hashem in their lives and in prayers and in doing the mitzvot they hear from Him, really knowing Him there? Have you ever prayed on Shavuot, “We will do and we will hear”; on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, “Our Father, our King”; on Sukkot, We will follow your like a bride and you will shelter us; on Pesach, “It would have been enough…”? “Blessed are you, Lord, our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments…” These things are a gift from God to everyone in Israel who will seek Him with their whole hearts, and increasingly much so, in the ways that were commanded in Moses’ time and for every generation.

    • June Volk says:

      Shalom dear Annelise,
      Shelly came from an orthodox family. We had Shabbat dinner every Friday night and lit the Sabbath candles. All The Holy Days are a foreshadow of our Messiah – my Father/my King – Avenu Malkenu.

      I don’t judge you – I responded to what you wrote – I believe your heart is sincere in your search for truth – it is more serious for you, as a Gentile, to come against Yeshua as Lord and King. I love you, Annelise.
      “The Lord is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation” (Ex. 15:2). In other words, “He has become my Yeshua.”
      “God be merciful to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that Your way may be known on earth, Your salvation [Yeshua] among all nations” (Ps. 67:1-2).
      “And it will be said – ‘Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation [Yeshua]’ ” (Isaiah 25:9).

      Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” (John 19:19).

      20 Therefore many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Latin and in Greek. 21 So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews’; but that He said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written” (John 19:20-22).

      I wrote to you only because of what you wrote to Paul, who responded to Rabbi Blumenthal. I never left my people – – – if Yeshua is The Prophet that Moses warned our people about – – – then those who do not accept Him will be cut off from Israel. Zechariah 12 is a very powerful chapter to be considered with fear and trembling. The stakes are high on both sides – but – The LORD has the final Word.
      Shalom, Annelise,
      June

      • Annelise says:

        June, I know you have been to a Shabbat dinner before 🙂 I wasn’t asking that!!

        I can’t believe that the fact that someone’s name comes from a word used to describe God’s salvation is offered as a reason to follow, let alone follow exclusively and worship, a Jewish teacher. That is just wrong, it means nothing June! Nearly every Jewish name can be found in Tanach in ways that would be terribly misread if treated like this. Even the people called Yeshua in scripture, or in history, are not treated like this. It is absolutely wrong to take some poetic resonance as if it were the truth that someone should follow in a matter so serious.

        What Pilate wrote or didn’t write is of no consequence, unless you already believe the story is from God.

        *If* he is the prophet? Show that someone *is* a prophet or anointed king in an acceptable and sure way, and then the loyal followers of Hashem will accept him. The stakes are high. If I disagree with you then you think I am proud and angry, if I agree with you then you think I am humble and a lover of truth, but I cannot use your opinion or your experiences as the measure of my relationship with God and surrender to Him.

        I’m not going to comment further and I don’t know what your experience of Yiddishkeit was like, or your relationship with God there; how could I know? But I wish you had understood my question. You just CANNOT say these things without being willing to properly justify them with more than your feelings. You don’t know what an impact that has on people’s lives and their connection with God in obedience… no matter how merciful He is in the church to let people know Him deeply and be blessed. That experience is not limited to Christianity. It is not anchored on anyone called ‘Yeshua’, it is anchored on the way God saves and redeems His people and the people He has created who seek Him. Do not confuse the issue by treating your experiences and feelings about them as if they could justify what you are asking people to do, and what you are saying about their hearts before God. I’m serious, just because you feel it does not mean it’s true, does not mean that a humble searcher of God will accept your words, does not mean that the man you love so much (caught up in the very love you have for God!) deserves what you think he does, or was who you think he was. As you told me to me careful, we say the same to you; as you told me you know blessing in the truth, we say the same to you; as you ask us to reevaluate the things we consider precious, we ask you to humbly and sincerely do the same. At least stop telling people to bypass acceptance of Torah *before* they consider Yeshua and the community that follows him, claiming to be the only light of God in the world.

        • June Volk says:

          Dear Annelise,
          Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”
          With Love,
          June

          • Annelise says:

            Yeah, I think it’s better if we stop talk about it now and just honour that.

          • Annelise says:

            *talking about it

          • Annelise says:

            I’m not saying it’s not an important conversation. But we are going nowhere, so, press on in listening to Him. I hope we will let Him speak.

          • June Volk says:

            “Seek you the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have kept his commands; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be you shall be hidden in the day of the LORD’S anger.” Zephaniah 2:3
            Keep seeking Hashem, Annelise!
            Love you,
            June

          • Annelise says:

            You encouraged me to keep seeking God, but I’m not sure if you said it because you are implying that if I do then I will ‘finally find Yeshua’… or whether you really want me to have the chance to come closer to my God, regardless of all else. If the latter then thank you.

        • Larry says:

          Please don’t stop. These last two or three weeks have been the best I can remember. I do not have the deep understanding you have, but it is what i seek. I know its a struggle, but please dont stop. It’s not falling completely on deaf ears.

          • Annelise says:

            We’re all seeking an understanding of things that can only be a gift to know more deeply 🙂 If you want, Rabbi Yisroel can give you my email address.

          • Larry says:

            That would be great.

          • June Volk says:

            Hi Larry,
            Be encouraged that the Scriptures say: He Who Seeks Me with ALL his heart, soul, mind and strength will be found of Me. Keep seeking The Lord and His Truth – and He Will reveal Himself to you. Just like in the Song of Songs, He hid Himself from His lover and she kept seeking for Him … until …
            His Word Never Fails.
            With Blessings,
            Barch Hashem,
            June

          • June Volk says:

            That’s Baruch Hashem 🙂

          • Larry says:

            June Volk
            Thanks for the encouragement. I have been doing that, much more in recent years and it has lead me to leave christianity. I’m not sure it matters for non jewish peoples like my self, I have heard many different opinions. I know miracles happen to people of all faiths. For me, I was never comfortable with the focus on christ. When I started reading the OT and scripture which was supposed to point to christ for my self, well, lets just say the rest is history.

          • June Volk says:

            Annelise,
            My heart for you is to draw closer to The Holy One of Israel – and to Know Him. The conclusion of Who He Is comes from the spirit of revelation of the knowledge of God. Honestly, my heart is not to prove anything – but to keep my heart open and to see you keep your heart open to His Sovereignty.
            Love you, Annelise,
            June

          • Annelise says:

            When you say ‘The Holy One of Israel’, you mean Yeshua.

  10. naaria says:

    It is rare, or rather quite strange, that a prophet, who supposedly had a message from God, required others to accept his claims by having him &/or his close followers promote “his person” by attempting to draw a connection between him and previous prophets by a few similarities found in their writings & his person or deeds. The words of a prophet usually speak foremost of the political & social environment of his own time. He, of course, would show others where they had strayed from Torah or “the law” and what the consequences were unless they returned to God, but it is pecular and quite suspicious, that he would have to try to convince his audience that “he had not come to destroy the law” unless the people themselves began to question his behavior, motives, and adherence or faithfulness to the law and Torah that they knew. Such words would seem designed to answer critics or skeptics or to gain confidence in a man that law-keepers and righteous men were wary of because of his deviation from the Word of God. A spy or traitor often emphasizes their patriotism in order not to raise suspicions. One wonders, especially one like me who was raised Christian, why some others try so hard to emphasize the “Jewishness” of a certain prophet who seems so “un-Jewish”, perhaps even anti-Jewish, especially if “race” or “religion” supposedly doesn’t even matter, unless there is some deeper motive or message of confidence-gaining where trust has failed to materialized. The teacher has failed the students; the prophet has failed the mission and therefore God?

    As a Christian, I was raised to look at things from a distance; from faith first and then at “facts” which either proved that faith or that was harmonious to that faith and its principles. Reward or consequences came first, then belief, than selected verses in the NT (depending on one’s denomination), and then selected stories in the “OT”. From a distance, because the closer one looked at the “pillars” of the faith, the more problematic & shaky the foundation of the faith. From a distance, because the closer one gets to earliest years of the faith movement, the more problematic its foundations and the more something called “apologetics” had to be called in to keep the faith structure from crumbling. Principles, such as “sola scriptura”, “inerrancy”, “higher Christology”, etc. become “faith crutches” and apologetics for some and unnecessary burdens or stumbling blocks for others. When the disciples of Jesus, or early authors of Christian writings, were so confused about who Jesus was “supposed to be” or what he said or what he did, clarity can not be achieved by most “believers” from the great distance that they are at. Only by “being born again” can they see certain principles of faith, certain truths about the God of the Hebrew Bible, of Israel. “Grafting” keeps you separated from the God of the Tanach, the God of the Jews. If that is where one wants to be, Jesus is an impediment and a stumbling block. Leaving Jesus is a choice for those who choose to follow certain principles of God. There are many different Christianities and most are acceptable as a faith or belief system for people. Or, one can be a Buddhist, a Taoist, atheist, agnostic, or whatever is “your way”, your path, your choice.

    Some Prophets told us some of the followings things (and Jesus should agree with most, in order to fulfill prophecy). An “anointed one” can not be the same as “The Anointer”. The “one sent” is not the same as the “One Who sent the “sent one”. The Creator comes before any created (incarnation is a creation long after Cration). A son can’t exist unless a Father comes first and God existed long before becoming “a Father”. God is one; no need to complicate it with some “trinity concept” where our “Father in heaven” is also a “son of the Father”, separate yet absurdly equal (divided, God falls?). God is not an idol, but God can become that if a person focuses upon an object or a being (either physical or not or as a human being or not), or an idea or a god, as if that object or being were a god or God.

    • naaria says:

      It is strange that one uses the “witness” or the “words” of Pilate, or an unknown Roman Centaurion, or of Nebuchanezzar, or of unknown people who heard “voices from heaven”, etc to justify faith in Jesus (who is 100% Yeshua, unless both the “Greek-Roman” or “Jewish” camp lies?). Strange that the model some choose for a messiah for Jews are the non-Jewish models of Epiphanes or Caesars or the saviors or gods of Zoroastrianism, the mystery religions, the Greek & Egyptian gods, etc. Israel has fallen for the “gods of the nations” for too long. So say the Jewish Prophets.

  11. David says:

    I’ve read people writing that what he preached was nothing new, such as the Sermon on the Mount; just a repackaging, no new truths. On the other hand others have said that he is radically different preaching a new message.

    I think it is both of the above; basically, the same truths but from another view point, explained and manifested in a different way.

    He was radically different in a way, but also similar to the other prophets who came before him at the same time. On the one hand he was very traditional and devoted to God, knew scripture inside and out, always gave God the credit, always thanked God, thought of others and served others before himself, encouraged others to serve. On the other hand he was very different in that he had a special mission separate and apart from the others, had a unique origin and unique gifts from God, knew the essence of scripture and God’s will and not just the letter of the law and in his 100% laser beam focused on obedience to God’s will and commands. He always exercised and exemplified God’s will in everything he did.

    Often his interpretation of God’s will put him at odds with those in authority over Israel. Often they took a more legalistic (letter of the law) approach to the law, where as Jesus took more of a holistic approach to God’s will and law and prioritized behavior depending on what would be most pleasing to God. Jesus considered the whole law, the spirit of the law, and the letter of the law in regards to 100% obedience to God in his entire being.

  12. June Volk says:

    Hi David,
    I read your comments and basically agree with all you wrote.

    However, you omitted a key aspect: Who Jesus Is … that is …

    He Is The Son of God and the long awaited Messiah and the Savior of the world.

    He Was And Is And Is To Come …

    So this does differentiate Him from other Prophets – because He Was So Much More …

    Jesus Was God Incarnate …

    With Respect,
    June

  13. June Volk says:

    Annelise,
    The Holy One of Israael is The LORD God of the whole earth, shall He be called (Isaiah 54). Why are you always looking for a ‘hidden’ motive of my heart? My heart is sincerely for you and for your relationship with The LORD God of Israel.

    If I’m wrong in my faith in Jesus being The Holy One of Israel, and I seek the LORD with ALL my heart, soul, mind and strength and am sincere, He Will correct me. I’m sure of it!!! But, my heart is for you to find the Truth and be at peace with The Holy One of Israel – The God of the whole earth shall He be called.
    With Much Love,
    June

    • Annelise says:

      No I really wasn’t making it up. I was responding to what you wrote:
      “My heart for you is to draw closer to The Holy One of Israel – and to Know Him. The conclusion of Who He Is comes from the spirit of revelation of the knowledge of God.”

      When you said ‘the conclusion of who he is’, I believe you meant the answer to the question about who Jesus was and whether the God of Israel is the man who founded the Christian faith. I am really uncomfortable with the constant mixing up of pronouns, and ideas, such as that.

      Thanks for hoping I will find the truth and be at peace. In a way that is between me and God and it is separate from what others like you feel would be the way for me to find it. but as much as you care, thank you. I’m sorry if my words sound harsh, I just really disagree with the way you all are responding to points directly from Torah (you react as if the interpretations of clear passages were just made up by the Pharisees), and then constantly trying to push the worship of this man on people through the vibrant, emotional, caring etc. sound of your message. It is wrong to cause others to worship him without even realising the implications of that choice. The emotions aren’t personally directed at you per se, and I don’t deny for a second that you can be sincere before God; I simply don’t assume one way or the other because I honestly cannot know. But I have to respond to words like the ones I quoted above!

      • Annelise says:

        By “you all” I meant Messianic Jewish missionaries… I wasn’t referring to the people typing here 🙂

        • June Volk says:

          Dear Annelise,
          “Seek you the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have kept his commands; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be you shall be hidden in the day of the LORD’S anger.” Zephaniah 2:3
          Keep seeking Hashem, Annelise!
          Love you,
          June

  14. June Volk says:

    In Conclusion of my correspondance with you, Annelise, here in open forum:

    Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”

    With Hope In My Heart,
    June

    • Annelise says:

      Thanks, June! I can feel sharply how you choose verses that speak of being sheltered from God’s judgment, and choosing not to be so proud… and say to ‘keep seeking’ and that you have hope, as if there is something you’ve seen that we are yet to find. Again, I only point that out because it isn’t only me who is affected by it; it’s the people who are walking in His covenant, whom you’re speaking to as if they need to run to escape into something you think is important. You can’t, and I can’t let it slide.

      With that kind of honesty I accept the sincerity of your care. I hope the same for us both. Thank you for the truth, nonetheless, that is held in those passages and calls us ever closer to God. Amen!

      • Annelise says:

        And I really mean that. We are all called to be servants of God and we all rely on Him to lead us in His ways, all in the same way, before we can offer Him anything or be blessed to have truth in our hearts and mouths.

  15. junzey says:

    Please excuse my typos, David and all who read my response, it was an important one … I should have checked more carefully my typing … sorry.
    June Volk

  16. junzey says:

    “No man comes to the Father but by me”, because God designed it so that Jesus would reveal God in a way not yet revealed; to exemplify and personify God, not that he was God. Just as Jews used to come to God through the literal law, now the whole world may come to God through the law personified and fulfilled in Jesus. (PLEASE GO TO MY FIRST RESPONSE TO DAVID WHICH EXPLAINS WITH SCRIPTURE REFERENCE HOW JESUS REVEALED HIMSELF IN MANY WAYS AS GOD)

    Hi Again, David,

    The Diety of Messiah/Christ is quintessential to The Gospel! Either Yeshua/Jesus Is The Holy One of Israel – or – He Is Not! You cannot call a ‘created one’ Lord/LORD – Master – King!

    Doubting Thomas responded to Yeshua/Jesus when He told Thomas to touch His wounds after His Resurrection … Thomas fell on his knees and said, “My Lord and My God”!!!

    Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. God had the Greatest Victiory fulfilling Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 and many other passages for the Coming of Messiah when He died on the Cross for us; He became a ‘curse’ for us that we might become the righteousness of God.

    May The Holy One give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God. For my people, Jesus is stumbling block; the Old Testament reveals that very clearly, as does the New.

    My hearts cry for Israel Is for their eyes to be opened to their Messiah and King – The Holy One of Israel – Yeshua/Jesus – through Whom ALL men are saved. There Is no other Name/Hashem in heaven, or in earth, by which a man can be saved.

    The Blood of the Passover Lamb shed for us as our sacrifice saves us! That Is The Blood of God The Father Himself – for His people Israel and the world/nations – revealed through The Lamb: Behold The Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world.

    With Respect,
    June Volk

  17. junzey says:

    The end purpose is still the same, to come to God who is is life, truth and all that is good, and the principles upon which the law is based are still the same. The sum of the law is truth; Jesus is truth (the way, the truth and the life).

    Hi Again, David,

    Your three points were weighty and deserved attention, that is why I have answered in three different replies.

    The End Purpose is the same – to come to God Who Is Life – Truth – Good … this is essential to understand. Truth is Not a concept – Truth is a Person.

    Only God Is Good – so Yeshua/Jesus saying: I AM The Way, The Truth and The Life – no man comes to The Father – but by Me – is either True or False! If what He spoke was Truth – then we as His people, Israel, or the people in the world/nations, need to seek Yeshua/Jesus for the ‘way’ to the Father. That is a very deep statement!

    Yeshua/Jesus said, “I have not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it’ … that too is a very depp and quitessential statement. Was He a heretic? A fraud? A Liar – or – Was He The Truth?

    If Yeshua/Jesus Is The Truth – then every statement He made we need to go to Him through the power of the Holy Spirit and receive The Answer — Either Yeshua/Jesus is The LORD, or He was a fraud – a liar – and deserved to be put to death on a tree, as a ‘curse’. Or, did He give Himself as a sacrifice for Israel and for the world to Come to know God His Father, whose essence He Was and Is and Is To Come? That is the question!

    With Respect,
    June Volk

    • Annelise says:

      This is the thing you keep saying to me and to others, in point form:
      1. If Jesus’ claims are true then he is God
      2. I should be extremely careful
      3. Jesus is God and we should stop questioning his claims.

      Can you understand this this sequence of argument is missing something? You’re beginning with two assumptions… That Jesus’ claims are important, and that they are true. I begin with the assumption that every human is a mere human, and to take seriously the idea that I should worship someone as the Creator I need more than ‘what if’.

      What if Hinduism or Islam are true? What if traditional Judaism is true? Do you think I should be just as careful about Christianity as I am about those revelation claims?

      You’ve established the first step: be careful. I get it. But can we stop talking about that? The conversation can’t stop there. For sure, you should be careful, June, not to speak against the testimony that God has preserved in observant Judaism. And ‘if’ Jesus is not God you should be careful about always assuming he was. ‘What if’ means nothing because I fully grasp the carefulness but I believe that there is more to talk about in your assumptions.

      Btw I won’t be able to keep discussing all of this for the next four weeks because I’m doing a month-long intensive course that starts on Monday… I’m not going to have time. But every blessing to you in that time xo

      • Annelise says:

        I don’t prioritise the course above seeking God in His truth and what He asks of me. I’m just saying that all these messages take up so much time and for now I can’t sustain that.

    • David says:

      Hi June,

      At the risk of stating the obvious here, I’m not a “Trinitarian” believer. But, I’m a “non-Trinitarian” believer. Some refer to it as “biblical-unitarian” or “one God believer” among other names.

      I make no distinction between the two in regards to devotion to God. There are learned scholars and students on both sides of the Trinity debate providing good logical Scripture based arguments. I think I’ve seen and heard and studied all of the main points and most if not also all of the minor points each side has to offer. I’ve taken the time over a couple years or more now to research it. I don’t say that those who disagree with me on this issue (or any issue) are inferior scholars, poor students of Scripture, less knowledgeable, blind, etcetera in any way. We just disagree. People have a right to come to their own understanding and we all have error in some way in our understandings. Forgive me please (everyone) if I ever, or have ever, come across pushing my view (I know I may have sometimes in the past gotten carried away emotionally). I want to just “present” my view and treat others in the same way with the same dignity and respect that I want to be treated with. And that is to have the time and freedom to consider the facts and come to a different conclusion from everyone else if necessary, if that’s where the facts lead me without receiving some kind of “idiot” label from those who disagree. So, it is in that spirit that I present my non-Trinitarian argument, that although we disagree I respect you and your argument and everyone else for that matter who peruses the truth wherever they find it and comes to a different conclusion than me. That is all.

      I do not believe that anything of God originates in man, and that includes Jesus. All that is God, originates with God. A man or angel can be from God (sometimes spoken as “sent by God”) but that doesn’t make him or it God. So just because something originated with God doesn’t make him or it God. The written code/law is an example.

      Regarding who Jesus is/was, when Jesus says that he came to fulfill the law he is not just speaking of the first 5 books of Moses or the narrow view of the written code to the Israelites but rather he was speaking to all of the writings, the law and the prophets; in certain passages he makes this clear. At other times the narrow view of the code/law is in mind.

      I believe that Goodness, truth, life, are indeed “concepts” which represent God as to who He is and who He has always been. He spoke and manifested these concepts about himself into the form of the written code/law and the bible and in the person of Jesus for example. The code/law and the bible as a whole didn’t originate on its own, and neither did Jesus. God spoke the code/law to Moses for the good of the people and we have the law. The spirit of God overshadowed Mary and we have Jesus who in turn embodied the spirit of the code/law and the prophets in which God based the concepts of truth and life for our good.

      Jesus was spoken of by God beforehand through the law and the prophets because it (Jesus and this time) was foreordained by God to come to be. God reflected and gave of his glory to live by unto humans for the purpose of revealing himself and in-turn for the purpose of shepherding his people to him for our good. God also for-ordained that he would have a Son who would reflect his glory, to reflect the essence of the glory of the law embodied in human form to further reveal God (not that the law itself is God, and not that Jesus himself is God) and He did this also for the purpose of shepherding people to him through Jesus as was done through the law and prophets.

      The law is good, but Jesus is better. Why? Because Jesus more completely and in human form reveals God and God’s will. This has always been the plan of God to be revealed at the proper time. The law was necessary and good at its proper time and the essence of the law continues. We should not mistake Jesus for God based on the fact Jesus fulfills the law and the prophets.

      Jesus said he could do nothing on his own because everything he is, his entire being, his life, his purpose, originated with God and he obeyed His Father with a devotion unknown in previous prophets. As he said, he only says and does what he hears and sees from Father God (nothing more and nothing less). Jesus painstakingly went out of his way to give 100% of the credit to his Father for everything, and for everything he did and received. He also said, I am going to my Father and your Father, my God and your God. We share the same Father and God. While it is true that Jesus was an agent of God, he was a unique agent in all of history who embodied everything that God gave him because he obeyed everything that God spoke to him and showed him. What God wants us to know about Him-self he expressed through Jesus. That is why if we see Jesus we see God and if we see God we see Jesus, not because he “is” but because he “represents” God.

      Specific passages such as that of “doubting” Thomas have alternative non-Trinitarian readings and understandings. And I could give you my opinion on any one passage but I wrote this just to give an over all response of kind of a foundation of my understanding rather than get into the nitty gritty on passages in this particular response.

      For me, it’s not just a simple question of one or the other; the code/law or Jesus; Jew or Christian. On the one hand Jesus said I have not come to destroy the law, but on the other he also said you can’t put new wine into old wine skins or sew a new patch on old material. In a way Jesus is new but he is also old because the concepts (life and truth) of the old carry through. The best way to look at it I’ve found for myself is that he is both because both originate with God. He, Jesus represents the concepts of the old in a new form. He represents life, truth, devotion to God, service to God’s creation, grace, compassion, (all that is life and truth the sum of the law). That is why he also said, “I’m giving you a “new” commandment, but it’s not really “new” it’s been here a long time, it’s just a new way to look at it and understand it and understand God the way I know and understand God (my words, not verbatim of Jesus but represents the meaning to me that I’m trying to get across).

      • junzey says:

        Dear David,
        Thank you for pouring out your heart and faith in your understanding of the Scriptures. I hear what you are saying, you came across loud and clear.

        I do have one question for you: Do you believe that Jesus/Yeshua is Lord? Is He your Lord and Savior? If you believe He is your Lord and Savior and He was just a man, a created being like you and me – you would be in idolatry.

        If you don’t believe Jesus/Yeshua is your Lord and Savior – then you are in a process of searching and learning the meaning of the Scripture John wrote in The Book of Revelation: Written on His Vestures Is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
        With Respect,
        June

  18. David says:

    Hi June,

    Just a quick response here, I have just a minute.

    Yes I believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. But I believe this because I believe he was given this by God. Although a man, he is a unique man, having been begotten by God.

    Since I know that he is from God but not God himself, I don’t think of him as God, but rather God’s son; I also think of him as God’s agent who received from God all authority in heaven and earth, and I think of him as the man intermediary between God and man who was given that function by God.

    In short I don’t consider that idolatry, but I can see how some think that. But some think the opposite that it is idolatry to make Jesus, a man, into God.

    • junzey says:

      “Since I know that he is from God but not God himself, I don’t think of him as God, but ratherGod’s son; I also think of him as God’s agent who received from God all authority in heaven and earth, and I think of him as the man intermediary between God and man who was given that function by God.”

      Hi Again, David,
      Isaiah Prophesied for the coming of Messiah in Chapter 9 and Verses 5, 6, 7: Unto us a child is born (Jesus was born) unto us a son is given (He came as The Son of God) and His Name shall be called Wonderful (a name of God) counselor, The Almighty God (El Shaddai), The Everlasting Father (I and the Father are One), The Prince of Peace (Sar Shalom). And of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, (The Kingdom of God) to order it and establish it with judgement and justice from that time forward even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (brackets are mine)
      In these verses alone, we see the deity of Messiah/Christ. There are so many, many more …

      It is true that He came also as the second Adam – the Son of man – so He would have the authority and power to ‘redeem us’ buy us back with His Blood (His Blood was the Blood of His Father!) … that is why He had the authority over satan to buy us back! The Blood Sacrifice … it took the Blood of God to make us to be as He Is … when Yeshua/Jesus lives in us and gives us a new heart (Jeremiah 31:31) and we choose Him over our own life – He becomes our all in all.

      I would appeal to you to pray about your conclusion of Jesus being ‘just a man’, according to OT Scriptures, which were used to preach the Good News (Gospel) after the Resurrection of Messiah. It is all written – don’t use your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5,6) – ask The Holy Spirit to enlighten your soul as you read, and ask the Holy One, Hashem, to reveal to you Who Yeshua/Jesus Was and Is and Is To Come’.

      No small thing that He said, “Before Abraham was I Am … His Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom and He Is The Everlasting King of the Jews – The Holy One of Israel … He was crucifed because He claimed to be The King of Israel (Avenu Malkanu) – The Son of God …

      He came ‘a little lower than the angels’ He humbled Himself, so He might redeem Israel and the nations. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotton Son so that whosoever believes In Him shall have Everlasting LIFE (John 3:16). [Emphasis mine]

      Only God forgives sins. Only God is to be worsihipped. Only God and His Word are to be followed and believed and obeyed (Shema – to hear and obey). Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God the LORD is One.

      Either Yeshua/Jesus is LORD – or He is Not LORD … Either He Is Who He said He Was – or He Is a heretic … If Yeshua/Jesus Is your Lord and Savior – …
      With Blessings & Respect,
      June Volk

      • David says:

        Hi June,

        On worship,

        The Hebrew shachah and the Greek word proskuneo make up 80% of the English translation of “worship” in the bible. Other translation like latreuo don’t really mean worship and should be translated as “to serve”

        So, what does the Hebrew word “shachah” and the Greek word “proskuneo” really mean? They both mean to “bow down.”

        Genesis 23:7
        Abraham rose and “bowed down” before the people of the land, the Hittites.
        Genesis 33:3
        He himself (Jacob) went on ahead and “bowed down”
        Matthew 18:26
        The servant fell on his knees (proskuneo) before him.

        So we see that it is just fine to “bow down” to others to show respect.

        Now, English translations use “worship” for shachah and proskuneo whenever “bow down” refers to God or Jesus. But in reality it should be consistent using “bow down” for all or “worship” for all whether God or man.

        Exodus 24:1, Exodus 33:10, John 4:24

        By using “worship” for only God and Jesus, we mistakenly get the idea that God is Jesus or Jesus is God.

  19. David says:

    Hi June,

    Regarding names, remember that we have to read the bible the way it was meant back when it was written.

    Giving names was symbolic. Matthew 1:23 can also be read/translated: “God with us” or “God is with us.” God was with his people in Jesus Christ. He said if you see me you see God. None of this means that he “is” God. He didn’t say I “am” God. 2Corinthians 5:19 states that God was “in” Christ reconciling the world to himself. It doesn’t say God “was/is” Christ.

    Jeremiah 23:6 says: “This is the name by which he will be called … the Lord our Righteousness (NIV). It doesn’t say he “is” the Lord our Righteousness.

    Here are some other symbolic names used:

    Jerusalem = “the Lord our righteousness”

    An altar that Moses built = “the Lord is my banner”

    An altar that Gidion built = “the Lord is peace”

    Abraham called the mountain = “the Lord will provide”

    Elijah = “God Jehovah”

    Bithiah (a daughter of Pharaoh) = “daughter of Jehovah”

    Dibri = “Promise of Jehovah”

    Eliab = “My God is my Father”

    • junzey says:

      Hi Again, David,
      I know and understand the Hebrew meaning of worship (to bow down) and the Hebrew and Greek meanings of the words you wrote. I understand the ‘Jewish’ mindset on how Scriptures are interpreted.

      It might be good for you to read my book to understand how I came to the knowledge of Yeshua/Jesus as being the Son of God and Messiah. My website: junevolk.com You can also order my book by going to Amazon: The God Who Answers By Fire; A Jewish Saga by June Volk; that might help you, or the readers of my replies.

      When reading the Scriptures, you can take them symbolically or literally – I read the Scriptures and see them both literal and symbolic.
      For Example:

      Isaiah 7:14 – Immanuel – God With Us – I read that a virgin (I’m aware of the argument of almah and bethulah … yet, every time almah (young maiden) is used in the OT, it was a young virgin girl) shall conceive (I believe that the ‘seed’ was from YHWH) … that is the 1st prophesy of the deliverer in Gen. 3:15 being fulfilled: (the ‘seed’ of the woman) – the ‘seed’ for conception, naturally speaking, comes from the man! Isaiah 7:14 speaks of a specific One born Whose Name shall be called Immanuel (God With Us) and that was literal. In fact in Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14 is quoted. Is it not interesting to note that in Matthew 1:21: “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS” (NKJV). Immanuel and Jesus/Yeshua are one and the same. Matthew meant it literally, not just symbolically – God With Us. (emphasis mine)

      I Corinthians 1:30 “But of Him you are in Messiah/Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God – and righteousness and sanctification and redemption – This Scripture is literal in its meaning – for example:

      Jeremiah 23:5,6 “‘Behold, the days are coming’, says the LORD, ‘That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.” (NKJV) – In His Second appearance written on His Vestures from Revelation: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

      Jeremiah 33:15,16 “‘In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David A Branch of righeousness; He shall execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, And Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.’

      If you believe that Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell safely – which is a literal meaning – then why would you not believe that all Scriptures concerning Yeshua/Jesus was and is literal – what The Holy One would accomplish? Either Yeshua/Jesus is the LORD God of Israel – or he was a heretic, a false prophet, a deceiver.

      Wtih Blessings,
      June Volk

    • junzey says:

      Jeremiah 23:5,6 “‘Behold, the days are coming’, says the LORD, ‘That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.” (NKJV) – In His Second appearance written on His Vestures from Revelation: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

      Hi David,
      I see: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS … you might have misread my last reply to you or, a mistake in another reply of upper case and lower reference.

      In any case 🙂 I believe in the deity of Messiah/Christ – He Was and Is and Is To Come as The Holy One of Israel.

      I accept the fact that you see Jesus as your Messiah and your Lord, and do not believe in His deity.

      I see ‘bowing down’ to anyone or anything, other than The King of The Jews – Or – Avenu Malkenu – The Almighty God as idolatry. Whether an outward bowing (Daniel, Shadrach, Mishach and Abendigo refused to bow down) or – a ‘bowing down’ within ones heart.

      You see it differently -I accept the way see it – but disagree.

      This will be my final reply to you. Thank you for taking the time writing. I appreciate your study and search for The Living God.

      With Blessings,
      Baruch Hashem,
      June Volk

      • Larry says:

        Will the real Jesus please stand up. Lol

      • David says:

        Thanks for sharing

        • junzey says:

          Amen, David – Thank yoiu!

        • junzey says:

          And how was Jesus able to be different than Adam or Eve who were also created human without sin and without human parents? What did Hashem ‘put’ into Jesus that made him any different than any other human?
          Hi David,
          The difference between Jesus and Adam and Eve, or any other created being, is Jesus was not created – He Is our Creator. Jesus Is the manifestation of God.

          Micah 5:1 in the Masoretic Text reads: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; Whose goings forth are from old, from ancient days.” (In The New American Standard the verse concludes this way: From the days of eternity) He Was there from ancient days – He has no beginning).

          Isaiah 41:4 in the Masoretic Text reads: “Who hath wrought and done it? He that called the generations from the beginning. I, the LORD, who am the first, And with the last am the same.” The New American Standard reads: “I, the LORD, and the first, and with the last. I am He.”

          Isaiah 43:13 from NAS reads: “Even from eternity I am He.”

          Revelation 1:8 NAS reads: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

          Again, Jesus and the Father are one – echod –

          With Blessings,
          June

  20. junzey says:

    Thank you, David 🙂

  21. cflat7 says:

    David,
    Your recent reply to your understanding of whether or not Jesus is God raised a few questions for me:

    If Jesus isn’t God, yet you hold that he is Lord and saviour, how do reconcile that in the Tanach Hashem states that He (Hashem) is our salvation, that only He is God, and that only He is to be worshipped and obeyed? Why would He need a man to that in His place? And how was Jesus able to be different than Adam or Eve who were also created human without sin and without human parents? What did Hashem ‘put’ into Jesus that made him any different than any other human? If you appeal to the NT please support why this text should be considered part of God’s revelation (without prior belief in Christian doctrine).

    It seems to me, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, that worshipping anyone/thing besides the Creator is idolatry. I don’t see how Jesus can be Lord without that being idolatry (unless you mean ‘lord’ in the sense of a human king or something). Trinitarians at least have a tiny, thin leg to stand in this regard (albeit an imaginary one in my opinion).

    • junzey says:

      And how was Jesus able to be different than Adam or Eve who were also created human without sin and without human parents? What did Hashem ‘put’ into Jesus that made him any different than any other human?
      Hi David,
      I’m going against what I said about not replying anymore – I think you are asking a question that might give you a revelation of Who Jesus Is:

      Genesis 1:26a, 27 “Let Us make man in Our imaga after Our likeness… 27) God created man in His own likeness, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them.

      Jewish thought, or teaching. is that God was speaking to the angels or to the dust of the earth … Revelation knowledge: Let US was exactly meant by the Word of God – Let Us – the essense of God was more than one – echod (Yeshua/Salvation was within the heart of God) –

      We see proof of Revelation Truth in Vs 27: in the image of God He created ‘him’ – male and female – He created ‘them’ …
      Only Adam was seen when He (Eloheim) created ‘them’ … Yet, Eve existed – Eloheim created him male and felmaie He created them …
      Jesus said, “I and the Father are one’ … echod (Eloheim) … in essence Jesus Was God in the flesh …

      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
      Jesus is the Word made flesh – (God incarnate) – echod –

      What made Jesus (the Son of Man) different from the 1st Adam? The answer: Jesus Was God (echod – in essence) – coming in the form of the 2nd Adam – (To bring authority so that man could complete the command in Genesis 26b to rule all in the earth and be the ruler of the earth – As Adam was a man to the visible eye – God created him – male and female – He created ‘them’ (Eve existed and was there but you couldn’t see her) Jesus – the man – was all you could see to the ‘naked’ eye – but – His essense – He whole being – was God in the flesh …

      The Word became flesh!!! As Peter said to Jesus in Matthew 16, “Thou art the Messiah/Christ the Son of the Living God” … And Jesus replied, “Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father in Heaven”.

      May the Revelation of Who Jesus Is, Was and Is to come be revealed to you.
      With Hope In Hashem,
      June

  22. David says:

    God is the origin of everything including Jesus. God is our savior. Jesus as God’s agent does what God has authorized him to do. Review the conversation that Moses had with God when the Israelites rebelled. God kept calling them “your people” referring to Moses. And Moses kept calling them “your people” referring to God. In a way they are both, but we know that Moses is the agent and God is the originator of the agent. So the people are God’s. The salvation therefore belongs to God ultimately; Jesus is the agent that acts on God’s behalf, just as Moses acted on God’s behalf.

    Regarding idolatry, I think there is much misunderstanding about it. How do you define it using the bible, or in terms that the bible uses?

  23. junzey says:

    Regarding idolatry, I think there is much misunderstanding about it. How do you define it using the bible, or in terms that the bible uses?
    Hi David,
    The first Commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me

    Since Israel, as a nation, has rejected Jesus/Yeshua as Messiah, Savior and Son of God – He would be a false god to Israel! I would be in idolary, according to what they believe.

    You have accepted Jesus as Messiah, Lord of your life and Savior – but – you believe he was just a man! A created being representing God. To Israel, and to me, you would be in idolatry! To worship a man, or are you not worshipping your Lord??? Do you bow down to Jesus, or seek His face for counsel?
    Thoughtfully,
    June

    • junzey says:

      David,
      This is my last reply to you on public forum. If you desire to talk more about the Deity of Messiah, my e-mail is junevolk777@hotmail.com
      Thank you for your questions – I appreciate your study and knowledge of Hebrew and Greek. And, your heart for Truth and clarity in what the Scriptures are speaking. The Scriptures do speak – and what they speak – we are responsible to Shema – hear and obey.
      With Blessings,
      June Volk

  24. cflat7 says:

    It’s not so much ‘what they believe’ that matters, it’s what God says in the Torah. But I agree that the 1st commandment is very clear about who the Lord is (anything or anyone but Hashem, Is NOT the Lord). As for Moses, he spoke God’s words, but was he himself ever worshipped?

  25. David says:

    Hi all,

    By that definition I don’t consider believe in Jesus the man to be idolatrous. I know that he is a man and subordinate to God in every way. Just as I know that Moses was a man and subordinate to God in every way. Therefore Jesus as Moses is not a “god” before God. So, at least in regards to Jesus (as in regards to Moses), I have no other gods before God.

    Regarding bowing down: Moses bowed down to his father- in- law. That wasn’t considered idolatry because in his heart he knew that his father in law was a man and he wasn’t bowing down to him as if he were “god before God.” He didn’t place his father in law above God or put him in place of God. Neither do I bow down to Jesus as a “god before God.”

    When the Israelites committed idolatry with the image of a Golden Calf it was because they gave the credit to the Golden Calf which should have gone to God. They said something to the effect: This is the god O Israel which led you out of Egypt and they bowed down to the “image” of a Calf and sacrificed to an image.

    I have no images. I don’t give credit to anything but God that which God does. All that Jesus is and has comes from God.

    I might be out for some weeks, so if I don’t respond to this or other posts, that’s the reason why.

    God bless

  26. Pingback: Assessment and Rebuttal | 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources

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