16. Objection 1.8
Here Brown tries to explain to his readers why Jews have not accepted Jesus as their god. Brown lists several explanations for the Jewish position but Brown fails to tell his readers the most important reason why Jesus was never an option for the Jew. The Christian Scriptures themselves testify that the most important Jewish reaction to Jesus was: “how can a man claim to be god?” In other words, Jews in Jesus’ time and until today, recognize that attributing divinity to a human being is idolatry. It is for this reason and for this reason only that Jews gave their lives rather than accept Jesus. Judaism teaches that human life is sacred, but in order to avoid idolatry, one must be ready to die.
Imagine the following scenario. A certain drug manufacturer developed a drug that he claimed would cure chicken pox. The FDA refuses to approve the drug, because they recognize that some of the ingredients of this drug are extremely dangerous toxins. When asked why the FDA turned down his product, the manufacturer responds by complaining that they never seriously tested his drug. The manufacturer never tells his prospective customers that the FDA considers the contents of his drug to be harmful and dangerous. The word “dishonesty” does not begin to describe the salesman’s attitude.
Brown is doing the same thing. He fails to inform his readers, that the Jewish people, who were entrusted by God with preserving the message of Sinai, consider his product idolatry. Instead he tries to convince his readers that the product he is trying to market was not given a fair trial!
Another point to consider on this issue is Brown’s own admission that the Church had been preaching false doctrine. For centuries upon centuries, the Church had been teaching that Israel is no longer the elect of God. Even today, many Churches contend that the Jewish people can no longer consider themselves God’s firstborn sons. So how are Jews supposed to accept the “truth” of Christianity? The Christian teaching that the elect of God are the followers of the Messiah is nowhere to be found in the Jewish scriptures. Should the Jews have accepted a non-scriptural election and repudiate the scriptural election? According to Brown’s own standard that he set forth in the introduction – “follow the Bible” – and according to Brown’s own interpretation of the Bible, the Church has miserably failed. Why does Brown value the conversion of Jews to Christianity at a time when conversion to Christianity meant rejecting God’s firstborn son? (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:8).
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Yisroel C. Blumenthal
There is no such person as Jesus. The correct reference name is Yahshua and he never claimed to be Yahweh. No additional explanation is required. Only fools would continue the debate.
Jesus didn’t claim that he is son of God or God. Those things are christian version. Jews do not accept Jesus not because Jesus claimed he is son of God or God. Jesus questioned their centuries old tradition that an individual in the lineage of David would come as their messiah . Not only that Jesus told them not to believe any individual who come claiming he is the messiah. He Told the Jews who or what will come is the kingdom of God. Not only that Jesus predicted destruction of their temple. Jews could not tolerate all those things. So the Jews accused he claimed he is the messiah, he claimed he is the son of God and God. According to Jewish law a person claiming he is god is to be killed. In fact the Jews find out a justification to kill Jesus in the accusation that Jesus claimed he is god. When Jeremiah predicted destruction of their temple the Jews tried to kill him. But there was princes to rescue him, but in the case of Jesus there was none to save Jesus. So it is very clear Jews do not accept Jesus because Jesus questioned the centuries old Jewish tradition and his preaching that they should not believe in a messiah.and not because he claimed heis the god, it is a false accusation.
“Those things are christian version”
In my multiple versions of the new testment JC claims to be G-d. What version do you have that he does not?
Larry: you are aware that gospels are written by Christians. And they have written it to make you believe that Jesus is son of God and God. A casual reading of Christian gospel you will think that Jesus claimed he is messiah, son of God and god, there is nothing to wonder because it is what its writer wanted.But if you carefully read the words of Jesus you can see the hidden truth in it that Jesus didn’t claim he is the messiah, son of God or God. You believe that Jesus was a false prophet , a failed messiah. To satisfy, to convince yourself that your believe is right you want to believe Jesus falsely claimed he is Messiah, son of God and god. That is the truth that is why when yo read gospels you see Jesus claimed so. Have you note read , Jesus said “My doctrine is not mine, but his who sent me. John7:16 7:17 “ If anyone wants to do God’s will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from god or whether I speak on my own authority..12:49 “ I have not spoken from my own authority, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. 12:50 Thus the things I say, I say just as the Father has told me.13:16 I tell you the solemn truth, the servant is not greater than his master, nor is the one who is sent as a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 13:17 If you understand these things, you will be blessed if you do them”. I also want to tell you if you understand that Jesus claimed he is only a messenger sent by God you also will understand that he didn’t claim he is God.
“The gospels are written by Christians and they have written it to make you believe that Jesus is son of god and god.” I agree, if that is their intent, well, I get it. Why would anyone think differently? They believed Jesus is son of god and god. So should everyone else. Why would he, the very son of g-d, hand pick 12 believers to teach differently. We know the events in the NT were not tape recorded, so there must be a lot of things he said and did that made people believe he is g-d. But, like you point out, sometimes he did not say this. He pointed to something greater than himself. On the other hand He also said ” the father and I are one, and I give them eternal life”, at which time everyone wanted to stone him. So which is it. Can we mere humans trust in the New Testament or not. My understanding tells me that if the writers of the NT got it wrong, then the NT cannot be trusted.
He also said ” the father and I are one, and I give them eternal life”, at which time everyone wanted to stone him.. True he said it. But the Jews could not understand what he meant or they could not understand he said it in the language of a prophet. You see the Psalmist says “I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” Do you think Lord said it to the psalmist and psalmist claims he is the son of God? You see the Psalmist says ” I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the LORD has done. 18 The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.” Ps.118:17. Do you think Psalmist said it about himself ? Here the psalmist is speaking as if He is Israel. It is Israel and not the psalmist who will not die . Have you not read Jesus said “”I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.”. Like the psalmist Jesus also was speaking as if he is Israel and this is the way of prophets. By saying the father and I are one, and I give them eternal life” Jesus meant that Israel the son of God and God are one to give everlasting life to Jews..
Forgive me, why are you using the word psalmist?
at what point does it matter what is said in the NT after you find out the writers are trying to mislead you?
When Jeshua said I speak not on my own authority but on my Father who sent me, He was making the point that He was the Messiah, “The living Son of God, The Living One” The point or angle He was making was, that He was not speaking just as a man with his own intellect/flesh, but speaking with the Power of the Holy Spirit. Jeshua was fully man in the flesh but when He was working, teaching, healing etc it was God His Father doing the work.
Try reading John ch 14.
Unfortunately, the Church has taught replacement theology which claims that the Jewish people are no longer God’s elect. This is false and anti-Semitic teaching. However, the New Testament teaches that the nation of Israel will always be God’s elect. In Romans 11:1, it says “I ask then : Did God reject His people? By no means!”
I think catholics believe it will eventually be their turning to christianity that saves them, or they used to teach that.
that would be jewish people believing in jesus as g-d that saves them
It has been stated that the Jews didn’t except Jesus to be there God. Well that all depends on what side of the fence you are sitting on.
Through out the scriptures from start to finish OT that is, the scriptures state that God the Father Adonai, The God of Israel has a Son. Infact it teaches that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are One.
A compound One not a absolute One. Moses very very clear when using this wording. He could have used the other but of course that would have been wrong.
When God the Son appeared on earth as stated by Daniel, the Mosaic Law had been so corrupted by pharisaic law, truth about God was distorted beyond recognition. For example the Pharisee had weighed down the people with an extra 1500 laws just on the Sabbath alone.
Jeshua authenticated His Messiahship over 3.5 yrs. Jeshua came to fulfil the Law which were applicable to Him.
Jeshua didn’t come to destroy the Law but to fulfil it. Even to the Point of Death.
Anyone who heard John the Baptist teaching and repented under his baptizing believed in God and then believed in the Son Jeshua Messiah Lord and God.
Anyone who believed in Jeshua to be the Living Son of the One True God of Israel, also of course believed in the God of Israel. As they are both One of the same. “Before Abraham was I AM.
You believed in the Son either by works seen or by faith. Could be one or both.
Abraham believed in God by faith. At that moment in time that was all that was required. Not living by a Law, because that never of course was written. When Jeshua came along Israel had the Law and God Himself in the express image shown through His Son. Israel as a nation rejected Him. For being in league with satan. They could not SEE God the father! Why because they had perverted their own scriptures with sinful flesh.
So to answer your statement about some not believing in Jesus to be there God. Well that’s correct, they didn’t believe in there God.
Jesus said I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.
According to Matthew Jesus said to do and observe what the Pharisees tell you. He had a problem with their performance mind you, but it dosen’t seem that he thought they had corrupted the laws of Moses.
Did Jesus say that? I thought it was John because he thought JC was god. How can we tell the difference? Does it matter? What level of proof should we ask for? What has change?
Have a look at Matt 23:2,3. Not sure if it matters but this is just a response to the notion that the Pharisees corrupted the law of Moses. I don’t recall this idea coming from Jesus or even from Paul.
Paul, “Jeshua came to fulfil the Law which were applicable to Him.
Jeshua didn’t come to destroy the Law but to fulfil it.” You have misunderstood its meaning.Its meaning is given below:-
we can divide the law into three parts. (i) The blessings if they obey God. (ii) The curses if they disobey God (iii) Again blessings after the fulfillment of the curses.
Part I. The blessings: (Deut.28-1-14) ( Levi.26:3-13)
Part II. The curses ( Deut.28:15-29,Lev.26:14-29)
Part III. The Blessings after the fulfillment of curses.( deut.30 1-10)
At the time Jesus came, the Jews were under the belief that the 1st and 2nd part of the law have already been fulfilled upon them..So the Jews were eagerly awaiting to see the fulfillment of the 3rd part i.e. the blessing . Why did the Jews believe so? Because they saw their liberation under the leadership of Moses from the slavery of Egypt and their glorious period under the kingship of David and Salomon as the fulfillment of the first part i.e. the blessing. As the fulfillment of the 2nd part of the law, the curses, they saw the destruction of Israel (Northern Kingdom) in BC 725 and disappearance of the 10 tribes of Israel. They saw the destruction of Judea (Southern Kingdom) and Jerusalem temple in BC 584 and the Jews being taken captives to Babylon. The Jews saw all these happenings as the fulfillment of the curses in the law.
It is evident from the prayer of prophet Daniel that the Jews believed all the curses have already come up on them. Daniel says, “ All Israel has transgressed your law, and has departed so as not to obey your voice, therefore, the curse and the oath written in the law of Moses have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against him. And he has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster, for under the whole heaven such never has been done as what has been done to Jerusalem. As it is written in the laws of Moses all the disaster has come upon us” (Dan.9:11-13)
So naturally the Jews expected that now what is in store for them is the blessing after the fulfillment of the curses. They expected that the messiah will come now itself and the messianic age will usher. When the Jewish expectation of the messiah was at its highest, Jesus came with the most difficult mission in his hand. Jesus came to declare that the second and third parts of the law are going to be fulfilled upon the Jews. In other words, the mission entrusted to Jesus was to tell the Jews that they are going to be plucked out of from their land and they are going to be scattered all over the earth to fulfill the curses of the law upon them. After that they will be brought back to Israel and their kingdom will be restored in their Promised Land and will enjoy the blessings. Jews could not grasp the meaning of the words of Jesus so they could not believe Jesus.
Are you Daniel Paul k.? With his own version of the bible, after Jesus appeared to you in a dream?
Larry : My book “Israel is the Messiah – truth hidden in the gospels” is ready for publication.If i send you copy of it, would you please give me your sincere comments? Would you please give me your email ID. Mine is email@example.com
I’d be happy to but I am the least qualified here.
>>>>>Part I. The blessings: (Deut.28-1-14) ( Levi.26:3-13)
Part II. The curses ( Deut.28:15-29,Lev.26:14-29)
Part III. The Blessings after the fulfillment of curses.( deut.30 1-10)<<<<
This is a recurring cycle with Israel and the Jewish people. History testifies that this cycle has come full circle several times.
The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior.
See, when the true messiah comes, Israel will dwell in safety. The same is true for Zecheriah 9, which does refer to the king coming back from a battle in victory. And as a result, Israel will not need any more weapons of war! The total opposite from what Jesus did…
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
His rule will extend from sea to sea
and from the River[b] to the ends of the earth.
Go to YouTube and see the video “Which One Is Your Jesus” by an Ex Christian who searched about the historical JC, but could find only one thing: The Flavian Romans created JC as pacifist messiah to control the Jews thru this new created religion. As Caesar was worshipped, the adoration has continues until today: JC (Jesus Christ) and JC (Julius Caesar) is the same man god created by Mithraism, the official religion of the Roman Empire.
JC (Jesus Christ) and JC (Julius Caesar) is the same man god created by Mithraism,
(Facepalm) That is absurd, just absurd.
-Mithra was born from a rock, not a virgin
-Mithra was never treated as a historical person by anyone, but merely represented the Sun.
-Along with that, he did not have 12 disciples, but was surrounded by the 12 signs of the zodiac.
Please I implore you guys, don’t listen to bunk claims like this.
Hi CR, Can you provide those link of Pagans defending their paganism, and saying it has nothing to do with Jesus…
Here is a big one Remi (Zoroastrian polemic)
Here are some Hindu views
Reblogged this on 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources.
Excellent, as always, Rabbi B.!
I’d like to add my own thoughts, if I may.
A Unitarian Christian might argue that Jesus can fit in with traditional Judaism because he is not a god, just the messiah.
However, this Unitarian view is still, for Orthodox Jews, tainted by idolatry because it inappropriately places a man at the center of religious worship by proclaiming Jesus as the only way to God. Furthermore, the litmus test of a person’s character for all Christians, Unitarian and Trinitarian alike, is that person’s love for Jesus or rejection of him. In Judaism this attitude would also be considered idolatrous. Although in traditional Judaism, a Jew needs a rabbi for halachic and moral guidance, a Jew does not have to subscribe to the view of any particular rabbi to be considered a good Jew but can freely choose which rabbi to follow. In traditional Judaism, while the opinions of the rabbanim of the past are greatly respected and often serve as precedent, a Jew must follow the guidance of a rabbi of his own time–i.e., a live human being who can be consulted as needed.
Furthermore, any Christian argument that Jesus is the messiah can’t even get off the ground because although we use the same word, we mean something completely different.
The Christian defines messiah as a divine or semi-divine figure whose suffering, death, and resurrection redeem mankind from all sin.
The Jews reject this definition as anti-biblical, for atonement cannot be substitutionary according to the Bible; nor does the Bible present this type of messianic figure anywhere at all.
The Jewish definition arises directly out of the teachings of the Hebrew Bible. See for example Ezekiel 27:21-28.
Thanks for these great posts that provide clarity amidst the confusion sown by Christian missionaries.
The mixing and matching of Christian doctrines is more than I wish to untangle. Let’s simplify your post. You seem to be saying three things:
1) unlawful worship
2) messiah definition
3) substitutionary atonement
>1) one cannot condemn on the the word “worship” alone. It has to broad a meaning. Everything from to respect, venerate, honor, work for, kiss, bow down to. If I wanted to use your line of reasoning. By using a broad definition. I can accuse you of idolatrous worship when you daven (bow to) the wailing wall.
Let us make this simple: gradated “worship” proportional to magnitude. A earthly king may be honored “worshiped” with a bow. The messiah venerated as the deputy delegate representative of God. Total submission, allegiance and praise to Hashem only.
Dina you may not error in regard to selected individuals, however in general you error gravely espousing prejudicial stereotypical judgements based entirely on a limited definition of worship and belief Jesus is Messiah.
>2) The biblical Messiah definitions are primarily different in timing and number of advents. You choose to embrace only one select Jewish definition. You reject other Talmudic definitions on the basis of fulfillment in Jesus. In other words if Jesus fulfilled it – it can’t be right. Basically espousing an intolerant anti-messiah attitude towards any biblical Jewish definition of messiah other than your own.
>3) Since Abraham and Issac, since Moses and the first Passover, since Torah, Judaism has always been a substitutionary atonement religion. Even now as a concession from the rabbis you offer the calves of your lips as a substitutionary sacrifice.
Now you want to deny your heritage and rewrite your history, only because the ultimate fulfillment of substitutionary atonement is found in Jesus?
Oops, I forgot to follow!