The Angel of the Lord – Excerpt from Council of my Nation

The Angel of the Lord

Let us move on now to those passages in which God seems to be interchangeable with an angel. In chapter 18 of Genesis three men appear to Abraham. It turns out that two of these men were actually angels (Genesis 19:1). But who was the third one? According to some Jewish commentators (Rashbam, and Ibn Ezra), the third man was actually an angel who is called by God’s name. It is this third angel whom Abraham was speaking to and addressing as “Lord”. The Christians argue that this proves that God can take on the form of an angel and even the form of a human, for did this angel not eat and drink with Abraham under the tree? The Jew would point out that this angel was not worshiped and that there is no commandment that we worship this angel. When God appears to the prophets He often sends an angel to represent Him for the purpose of passing on His message to the prophet. The angel speaks the words of God, and the prophet addresses God by speaking to the angel – but the angel is not God. How can we know whose interpretation is correct? Is the angel God incarnate and deserving of worship as the Christian would have it? Or is the angel only passing on God’s words but is an entity distinct and separate from God as the Jew would have it?

Fortunately we have some other passages in scripture which could help us sort things out. Exodus 23:20 has God telling Moses that He will send an angel before the Jewish people. God commands Moses to hearken to the voice of this angel. Here is the direct quote (Exodus 23:22 -) “But rather you shall hearken to his voice and do all that I speak”. In other words God wants Moses to obey the command of the angel because it is God’s words that the angel speaks, but the angel is clearly an entity separate from God. Similarly in Numbers chapter 22 we find an angel speaking God’s words, yet the angel is an entity distinct from God. In verse 35 of that chapter the angel tells Bileam “but the word which I speak that you shall speak”, yet in chapter 23 verse 5 it is God who puts the words in Bileam’s mouth. Again, the angel is the one who speaks God’s words and scripture refers to it as “God speaking”. The very designation “mal’ach” (generally translated as “angel”) literally means “messenger”, highlighting the fact that the angel is an entity subservient to God charged with a mission – but is not an entity who is to be seen as co-equal with God. In fact we find that human messengers of God (also referred to by the term “mal’ach – angel” Haggai 1:13) speaking God’s words. In the book of Deuteronomy we find Moses speaking God’s words without any introductory phrases, he just slips from speaking God’s words in the third person to speaking God’s words in the first person – (Deuteronomy 11:15). No-one attributes divinity to Moses, yet in capacity of messenger to the Lord he speaks for God. God uses messengers, both human and angelic through whom He brings His word to this physical world – but there is no indication that any worship is to be directed to these messengers. These messengers are clearly distinct from God, and as such, are not deserving of worship.

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43 Responses to The Angel of the Lord – Excerpt from Council of my Nation

  1. Paul summers says:

    Hello

    One of the problems with the view of the Angel not being the second person of the trinity is the Angel being able to forgive sin. The only person who can forgive sins is of course God Himself. With that in mind the Lord does not give this power to an ordinary angelic being.

    As Jesus pointed out that Himself and the Father are One, Giving Christ the correct right to forgive sin through the Son by His death and ressurection according to the Law.

    Moses, Abraham, Samsons parents, and Isiaha did not have a problem with The God of Israel speaking to them face to face via His person the Angel.

    Its just down to a simple question, How much of Gods word does anyone decide he or she wants to believe?

    Believing in God is not a birth right, its about faith in Him. Something that Israel and the visible church needs to learn.
    X

  2. LarryB says:

    where are angels able to forgive sins?

    • Paul summers says:

      Excatly my point. They cant!

      Ex 23 v 21.
      X

      • LarryB says:

        Sorry, I misunderstood you.

        • Paul summers says:

          Hello.
          Ex 23 v20

          The words which interplay with the one who is speaking.
          Behold I………….which I………Beware of him……….obey his voice…….do not provoke him………..he WILL NOT PARDON YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS………..my name is in him……….obey
          his voice………..My Angel………I will cut them off.

          Hosea 12 v3-5 also says that this angel has the very name of God in Him. The fact that He has all four letters of Gods name within Him indicates that He is actually God Himself.

          Also very importantly!!!!!!

          Ref the Exodus. V 23 The Angel is the Angel of the exodus who passed over the blood. This Angel can only be God Himself. No one in Heaven has the authority to release Israel apart from God Himself.

          If this angel was a mere messenger then Israel have been giving honour to a angel for the passover and not thanking God Himself.
          Its a good job Moses new who the Angel was.

          Isaiah 63 asks “Who is this who comes from Edom?

          This is Messiah Jesus coming back to fight and destroy Israels enemies. And to bring in the Messianic Kingdom.

          • Dina says:

            Paul, the angel is God? How many persons are in your godhead, for God’s sake?

          • LarryB says:

            Paul
            ex 23
            20. Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
            21. Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him.
            Take a breath, he says he is sending an angel. Does it matter to you what god says?

  3. Sophiee says:

    Larry, angels don’t forgive sins. Hebrew doesn’t even have a word for an “angel” and the Hebrew phrase that missionaries mistranslate as “the Angel of the L-rd” is מַלְאַךְ יְיָ, mal’ach hashem, which really means “a messenger of HaShem (G-d). Note the indefinite article (no “the”) rather than the definite article. Also Christian translations tend to use capitalized letters (Angel of the L-rd) — which is a fanciful insertion purely at the whim of the translator, as there are no capital or lower-case letters in the Hebrew alphabet.

    As messengers heavenly mal’achim are simply tasked with delivering G-d’s messages — and sometimes the message is that G-d will forgive (without blood BTW). FYI the Jewish bible speaks of earthly messengers, too — but for some reason only known to them the Christian translators don’t translate the word as “angel” when speaking of humans. . .

    • Paul summers says:

      Hello.
      A very good reason why capital letters are used in english translations are because the translation is english not hebrew. However “The” or “the” means the same.
      You write G-d not God. Written differently but im sure the names are the same. Show me in the hebrew scriptures the word G-d as you write it?

      Ps try looking at 1 Cor ch 13 v 1.

      • Jim says:

        Paul,

        Capitalizing “The Angel of the Lord” lends an import to it that is not deserved. It changes “angel” from a common noun to a proper noun. Your analogy to the removal of the “o” in “G-d” is incorrect, because removing the “o” does not alter the meaning. Capitalization does change the meaning. I can hardly believe you would propose such an argument.

        Jim

        • Paul summers says:

          Hello.
          But your answer doesnt answer nothing.

          1. Can anyone besides God forgive sin? can a angel, just a normal angelic messenger give someone a child as promised (Isaac) Also in Isaiah ch 63 7-14 it states;

          v7 The Lord Jehovah- the first person.

          v9 The Angel of His presence – the second person.

          v 10,11,14 the holy spirit.

          All three are One, responsible for the exodus

          2. Does the hebrew text say God, or G-d?

          • Sophie Saguy says:

            The term רֽוּחַ הַקּֽוֹדֶשׁ rū’aḥ hakōdĕsh (holy spirit) never occurs in the the Jewish bible AT ALL. This expression can’t mean “holy spirit” because קֹֽדֶשׁ kōdĕsh is a noun meaning “holiness” or “sanctity” and not an adjective; the Hebrew equivalent of the adjective “holy” is קָדוֹשׁ kadōsh (masculine) and קְדוֹשָׁה k’dōshah (feminine)—the plural forms are respectively קְדוֹשִׁים k’dōshim and קְדוֹשׁוֹת k’dōshōt. The correct translation of רֽוּחַ הַקּֽוֹדֶשׁ rū’aḥ hakōdĕsh is therefore “the presence of holiness”. The Hebrew for “the holy spirit” would have to be either הָרֽוּחַ הַקְּדוֹשָׁה harū’aḥ hak’dōshah or הָרֽוּחַ הַקָּדוֹשׁ harū’aḥ hakadōsh (since רֽוּחַ rū’aḥ is a noun of common gender in Hebrew—i.e. it can be both masculine and feminine, although it’s usually feminine)—but neither of these is found anywhere, in any form, in the Jewish bible.

            This just goes to show yet again how Christian translators have lied to Christians. The concept as you describe it of a “holy spirit” (or “holy ghost”) is not found in Judaism.

            In Isaiah 63 G-d is telling us Jews that He will save us from Edom (Rome / Christianity: “Who is this coming from Edom” Isaiah 63:1). From Isaiah 63:7 to the end of chapter 64 is a prayer by Isaiah. Isaiah prays:

            “HaShem’s kindness will I proclaim as the praises of HaShem, in accordance with all that HaShem has bestowed upon us and the abundant goodness to the House of Israel that He has bestowed upon them in His compassion and in His abundant kindness. 8 For He said, “Indeed they are My people, children who will not be false, “and He became their Savior. 9 In all their troubles He was troubled, so an angel from before Him saved them; He lifted them and bore them all the days of the world.” Isaiah 63:7-9

            Note that Isaiah is saying that G-d has saved the lives of the Jews in our troubles. The term “savior” never has anything to do with having our immortal souls saved, but rather being rescued physically. Isaiah goes on to say that the Jews rebelled so G-d let our enemies (Edom / Rome / Christians) subjugate us — as if it were G-d Himself we were fighting (Radak).

            “But they rebelled and distressed the presence of His Holiness; so He changed toward them into an enemy: He fought them” Isaiah 63:10

            Isaiah goes on to remind G-d of the Exodus, and of Sinai — of the patriarchs and the promises of G-d to His people.

            “For you are our Father; though Abraham may not know us and Israel may not recognize us, You, HaShem, are our Father; “our Eternal Redeemer” is your name. Isaiah 63:16

            Isaiah finishes his prayer to G-d with the words:

            “Will you restrain Yourself in the face of all these, HaShem, and be silent and let us suffer so much?” Isaiah 64:11.

            In chapters 65 and 66 G-d answers Isaiah’s prayer.

          • Sophie Saguy says:

            Many Jews will not write out the names of G-d or of false gods (including Jesus) and this is perfectly acceptable. D’varim / Deuteronomy 12 tells us that Jews are to destroy everything to do with false gods. We are also told NOT to destroy anything to do with G-d. Since anything written can be destroyed it is erring on the side of caution to not write it in the first place. For these reasons people avoid writing the names of G-d and of false gods in full (at least in Hebrew).

    • LarryB says:

      Sophie.
      Thanks, i did not know it was messenger. That’s good to know.

  4. Sophie Saguy says:

    A messenger relays a message. This concept seems to escape some. For example, a soldier gives a message to a friend to tell his wife that he loves her. The friend shows up at the door and says “your husband asked me to tell you ‘I love you’.” Does that mean the messenger loves the friend’s wife — or is he simply relaying the message from his friend? This is ALL that angels (messengers) do for G-d. They follow His orders and they deliver His messages. They have no powers of their own — to forgive sins or anything else other than to carry out the will of G-d. There is no such thing as a “fallen angel.” Angels have no free will. They are MESSENGERS.

  5. Paul summers says:

    Hello

    Just Three, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

    The Angel here, the second person is pre incarnate Christ. Before Jesus was born into full. Humanity He had always been with the Father. It was a case of leaving heaven and taking on the form o full human flesh. Before Abraham was I AM.

    A triune Godhead is Jewish teaching not a christian conspiracy.

    John explains this nicely in his opening address.

    X

    • Dina says:

      Paul, how do you know that? Isn’t odd that the only people who believe the angel is pre-incarnate Jesus are his followers? How is it that this “fact” escaped the notice of all Jews prior to Jesus (and practically all Jews after his advent)?

      A Jewish teaching? You can tell that to Jews with a straight face? Is your tongue in your cheek, or what?

  6. Sophie Saguy says:

    Just one — not three. – one, not three.

    #1 “That you will know that G-d, He (ה֣וּא – singular) is the (singular) Supreme Being and there is none besides Him (singular) Deuteronomy 4:35)

    #2 Now, O L-rd our G-d, deliver us from his hand, so that all kingdoms on earth may know that You ALONE, O L-rd, are G-d.” (Psalm 113:5)

    #3 Before Me (SINGULAR) no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me (SINGULAR). I (SINGULAR), even I (SINGULAR), am the L-rd, and besides Me (SINGULAR) there is no Savior.” Isaiah 43:11

    #4 So said the L-rd, your Redeemer, the ONE who formed you from the womb, “I am the Lord Who makes everything, Who stretched forth the heavens alone, Who spread out the earth ALONE (לְבַדִּ֔י).” Isaiah 44:24.

    #5 I am the L-rd, and there is no other; besides Me there is no G-d… I will strengthen you…I order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the L-rd and there is no other!” Isaiah 45:5-6

    Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, and Job 9:32 tell us that G-d is not a man. Some Christians may argue that Jesus “in the flesh” came later to explain away this fact – but the prophet Malachi destroys this argument when he says in Jesus. “For I, the L-rd, do not change.” Malachi 3:6.

    Becoming a man is certainly change!

    The trinity isn’t even found in the Christian bible. Early Christians argued between the trinity, G-d alone and “two gods.” The trinity was formally established in 325 CE at the Council of Nicea.

    The declaration by G-d, “… I am the first …”, indicates that He has no father.

    When He said, “… I am the last …”, it means that He has no begotten son.

    Finally, when G-d proclaimed, “… besides me there is no G-d …”, it shows that
    He does not share His role with any other G-d or entity –

    He has no “partners”.

    By contrast, the deity for the overwhelming majority of those who identify with Christianity is a triune G-dhead consisting of the Father, the Son (who is Jesus),and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) – the Trinity. It is a false doctrine. G-d is not a man (Numbers 23!).

    • Paul summers says:

      Hi
      Well I would agree that God isnt a man at the present, however He did, For a small space of time become a man.

      Its not a case of did he? its a case of, “could he”?

      Unfortunatley you think its not possible, so the idea of God taking on the human form is something God cannot do because He is incapable of it.

      I do understand what you have just quoted. About not sharing etc. But from a triune Godhead all three are equal as One. Different offices of function but all co~equal. So Yes God is not sharing nothing with anyone.

      Hear O Israel the Lord your Gods!

      Before you reply you have to ask yourself this,

      Is there anything that God cannot do if He so willed it?
      Never mind what you and I believe in, …….. Can the Lord God do anything, Is He restricted by not being able because of His inferior power??

      Yes or No?

      I will donate $50.00 To any charity you wish if you simply reply Yes or No.

      Any other reply then the offer is closed.

      X

      • Jim says:

        Paul,

        I find it outrageous that in a forum for learning, you turn it into a den of sophistry. Your attempt to limit Sophie’s answers to mere “yes or no” is frankly disgusting, and is not in the spirit of learning or honest debate. It is cheap and unworthy of you.

        It is also silly. You say that it isn’t a matter of what God did do, but what He is capable of doing. This is absurd. Horace will level the same argument to you regarding his tree. If you say that God did not become a tree, he will ask you the same silly question: “Are you saying that God cannot become a tree?” Absurd. Of course it matters if He did. Your claim is that He did, not just that He could.

        Let us say it is possible for God to become a man (for the sake of argument). How will we know when He did it? If you say by miracles, then I must accept many other teachers who contradict Jesus, because they also did miracles. Nor did Jesus fulfill the only sign he offered. And every scripture that is meant to show that Jesus fulfilled the Torah and the Prophets is wrenched out of context, twisted beyond all recognition. Moreover, how will we know that He did not come as other people? How do we know that He isn’t Charlie?

        But what is most foolish about your argument is that you yourself deny that God can “do anything.” For you hold that God cannot forgive sin without the sacrifice of Jesus. Let’s limit your response to a “yes or no”. You should answer your own question: “Is there anything God cannot do if He so willed it?” If your answer is “yes”, because He cannot forgive sins without punishing someone, then Sophie may also answer “yes”, He cannot become human, and you will have no means to argue against her. If you answer, “No, He can do whatever He wills”, then He never needed to become human, because He could forgive us anyway. Don’t offer some weaselly response with words beyond one word. That would be unfair.

        Of course, I would not hold you to such an absurdity. You should answer with as many words as necessary to make your argument clear. All arguments should. All discussion to the end of education should use more than single word responses. Or else the end desired isn’t education but to make fools of other people.

        I will also need more than one word: God cannot do anything; He can only do those things a perfect being can do. For example, He cannot grow. He cannot improve. He cannot devolve. He cannot perform absurdities such as making square circles. His existence cannot become dependent on the existence of any other object or creature.

        It would be a great kindness to me if you would refrain from such grandstanding in the future. Of course, you don’t owe this to me. This is not my blog. This would only be a personal favor, and since you don’t know me, I understand why you might decline. You don’t owe me anything. I just find it disgusting.

        Jim

        • Dina says:

          Jim, this is awesome!

        • Sophiee says:

          It isn’t even a question of “if” G-d could do something — but of whether or not you think G-d is a liar. G-d tells us He is not a man. G-d tells us He is unchanging. G-d tells us that He is the one and the only and that beside Him there is no savior. . . G-d said all of these things so either G-d is a liar or we believe Paul and the trinitarians and ignore G-d Himself.

      • Dina says:

        Paul, you asked two questions, each of which requires a different answer.

        “Can the Lord God do anything?”

        Yes.

        “Is He restricted by not being able because of His inferior power?”

        No.

        Please write out a check to Politz Hebrew Academy and mail it to me. My address is

        Dina Bucholz
        7938 Dorcas Street
        Philadelphia, PA 19111
        USA

        Jim’s answer is perfect, and I have nothing to add to that.

        One word of advice, Paul: check your grammar and spelling before posting your comments. Beware of the double negative!

        • Dina says:

          Hey, Paul, just a reminder that you owe my charity $50. But if you don’t mind, I’d like to change the recipient. Please write your check to Judaism Resources. The mailing address is on the “About” page on this blog (https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/about/) or you can donate by credit card on that page.

          I’m sure you will keep your word and hand in that donation pretty soon.

          Thanks, Paul!

      • LarryB says:

        Paul:
        “Hear O Israel the Lord your Gods!”
        Its verbal taunting like this that has me convinced that your just a teenager messing with everyone.

        • Dina says:

          Hi Paul.

          Deuteronomy 6:4:

          NIV: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
          KJV: Hear , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
          NLT: Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
          RSV: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

          Paul, what version of the Bible are you using? Where do you see “Gods,” pray tell?

          • Paul summers says:

            Masorectic text. NASB. NKJV.

            You?

          • Dina says:

            Paul:

            Deuteronomy 6:4:

            Masoretic text: Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
            NASB: Hear, O Israel ! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
            NKJV: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

            In every single version that I checked, both Christian and Jewish, God is translated in the singular. Curiously, you translated it as “Gods.” You claim that’s because you know the difference between two Hebrew words, echad and yachid. So are you claiming to know Hebrew better than the CHRISTIAN scholars who translated the Bible that you yourself use?

            For your information, I speak Hebrew, so I will enlighten you on the meaning of the two words.

            Echad = one
            Yachid = only, single

            What’s the problem?

        • Dina says:

          Also, Paul, the fact that you wrote “Gods” proves the hollowness of your claim that the trinity is one god. By using the plural form you betrayed yourself and showed that you really believe in more than one god.

          • Paul summers says:

            No not all. I just know the difference of two hebrew words.

            Echad and yachid.

            Moses new the differences between the two. He used echad to make a point.

            If he used yachid you would be using it as a base for your argument and telling me that my knowledge is flawed.

        • Paul summers says:

          Well that “convincing ” that you state just shows me how wrong you are. First, Im way past teenage years and secondly im just showing you what the hebrew teaches. If either offends you, then thats not my fault.

          Dont shoot the messenger!

          • Lb says:

            When/if you donate to Dina’s favorite charity like you said you would, I’ll believe you about your age. Your error does not offend me at all. I’m happy for you that your at least trying.

      • Dina says:

        Hey, Paul, if you want to add a couple of zeros, that would also be fine :).

        • Paul summers says:

          Hi

          Ive added nothing such as zeros to anything.
          Its a shame that the Law of Moses had a handful of requirements regarding the sabbath, and the teaches of Israel past added 1500 more to it.
          Its a shame for you that God Himself sent His only begotton Son to Show their error and you rejected Him and followed the blind shepherds who added!

          Having said all that I shouldnt expect no other attitudes. It is God Himself, Adonai of Israel who has closed your eyes, ears and hardened your hearts from the truth.Your rejection of Messiah is my aceptance into the covenants of Israel.

          God has always kept a elect remnant for His Names sake. The other two thirds perish. Elijah new this.
          Someone here wrote “God never changes” I totally agree. He will punish the wicked who reject Him.
          He is the God who was, The God who is, and the God who is to come.

          The start of the 7 feasts of Israel will soon be upon you. Of course starting with passover. When you all travel to Israel this year with your lambs and offerings (according to the Law), And when Day of atonement comes and you do the same according to the Law, just remember to say this to one another,

          Deut 31 v 29.

          • Sophie Saguy says:

            “There shall come a time when you shall experience all the words of blessing and curse that I have presented to you. There, among the nations where G-d will have banished you, you will reflect on the situation. You will then return to G-d your L-rd, and you will obey Him, doing everything that I am commanding you today. You and your children [will repent] with all your heart and with all your soul. G-d will then bring back your remnants and have mercy on you. G-d your L-rd will once again gather you from among all the nations where He scattered you. Even if your diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, G-d your L-rd will gather you up from there and He will take you back. G-d your L-rd will then bring you to the land that your ancestors occupied, and you too will occupy it. G-d will be good to you and make you flourish even more than your ancestors. G-d will remove the barriers from your hearts and from the hearts of your descendants, so that you will love G-d your L-rd with all your heart and soul. Thus will you survive. G-d will then direct all these curses against your enemies and against the foes who pursued you. You will repent and obey G-d, keeping all His commandments, as I prescribe them to you today.
            G-d will then grant you a good surplus in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your livestock, and the fruit of your land. G-d will once again rejoice in you for good, just as He rejoiced in your fathers. All this will happen when you obey G-d your L-rd, keeping all His commandments and decrees, as they are written in this book of the Torah, and when you return to G-d your L-rd with all your heart and soul. D’varim / Deuteronomy 30:1-10

          • Sophie Saguy says:

            FYI, there are 613 mitzvot for Jews in the Torah. One of them says that we are only to bring sacrifices in the Temple — meaning that while we are without the Temple we are forbidden from bringing sacrifices. Read D’varim / Deuteronomy chapter 12:5-14. “This you may do only on the site that G-d your L-rd will choose . . . That shall be the place to which you must bring your burnt offerings and eaten sacrifices. . .It is there that you will have to bring all that I am prescribing to you as your burnt offerings, eaten sacrifices. . . Be careful not to offer your burnt offerings in any place that you may see fit. It must be done only in the place that G-d shall choose.”

            You see Paul — we observe the mitzvot — including those that say “DO NOT”. . .

            http://www.aish.com/jl/m/m/48945081.html

          • Dina says:

            Oh, Paul, I’m so disappointed. I was hoping you would add a couple of zeros to the $50 you owe to my charity (so then it would be $5000). But if you change your mind, I’ll still accept it 🙂 !

            Paul, I’ve got some questions for you. You wrote: “Having said all that I shouldnt expect no other attitudes [there’s that pesky double negative again]. It is God Himself, Adonai of Israel who has closed your eyes, ears and hardened your hearts from the truth.”

            My first question is, if God Himself has closed us off from the “truth,” why are you bothering? In other words, you can’t reverse God’s will, so it’s futile for you to appear on this blog and preach to us. Since we are incapable of perceiving the truth, why waste your time? Why not go to non-Christian gentiles with whom you will have more luck?

            My second question is, is it fair for God to blind us to the truth and then damn us eternally to hell for rejecting it? Is it just and merciful to take away a people’s free will and then punish them for it?

            I await your reply.

          • Dina says:

            Another thing, Paul. You dropped out of this conversation, but I would nevertheless like to point out that it’s dishonest to cite a verse that fits your agenda and ignore others. If you want to cite Deuteronomy 31:29, then you also ought to mention Deuteronomy 30:2.

      • “I do understand what you have just quoted. About not sharing etc. But from a triune Godhead all three are equal as One. Different offices of function but all co~equal. So Yes God is not sharing nothing with anyone.”

        what? does the spirit have the POWER TO spin the EARTH by himSELF?
        does the father have the power to spin the EARTH by himself?
        does the son have the POWER to spin the earth by hIMSELF?

        was the power part of each PERSON FROM ETERNITY?

        the son IS NOT co equal to the trinity
        the father IS NOT co equal to the trinity
        the ghost is NOT co equal to the trinity

        okay, “all 3 are co equal ” but EACH IS NOT coequal to the trinity
        so if each IS NOT coequal to the trinity, then EACH CANNOT BE 100% /complete god, RIGHT?

        back to the question about power
        are each persons INDEPENDANT in the sence that they DO NOT NEED EACH others powers to SPIN the earth?

  7. Sophie Saguy says:

    To explain away Jews 2000 year refusal to “accept” Jesus as a god (let alone a messiah) many missionaries blithely say that “Jews are blind – a “veil” has been put before your eyes so you can’t see the “truth” that Jesus is the messiah.” This outrageous slander is straight from the Christian bible – 2 Corinthians 3:14 where Paul (a man who had no authority and never met Jesus) lies and those lies are immortalized in the Christian bible!

    In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul further wrote: “We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.”

    WHAT was supposedly “passing away”? The eternal promises G-d made to the Jews which He repeatedly tells us ARE eternal? It is a fundamental principle of Judaism that the Torah received at Sinai will never be changed nor become obsolete. This concept is mentioned in the Torah no less than 24 times, with the words: “This is an eternal law for all generations” (Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28)

    So here we have G-d saying Torah is eternal — and Paul — this non-authoritative man who claims to be a Jew to the Jews and a gentile to the gentiles says the opposite — and people believe his lies! Paul says

    “But their minds were made dull (the Jews) for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It (the veil) has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.”

    Paul calls G-d’s eternal covenant “old.”

    Paul claims that G-d has put a veil between Jews and G-d that only Jesus can take away. Paul is totally lying about what G-d tells us in the Jewish bible — not just about G-d’s promises being eternal (not “old” and “replaced”), but also about this “veil” that supposedly makes Jews blind. Read Exodus (Sh’mot) 34 for yourselves – it is the opposite of what Paul claims. In other words PAUL LIED.

    Sh’mot / Exodus 34 “31 . . .Moses would speak to them . . . 32 all the children of Israel would draw near, and he would command them everything that the L-rd had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. 33. When Moses had FINISHED speaking with them (the Jews), he placed a covering over his face.”

    What??? This is the opposite of what Paul wrote! When G-d communicated with Moses there was no veil.

    When Moses communicated G-d’s words to the Jews there was NO VEIL.

    “34 When Moses would come before the L-rd to speak with Him, he would remove the covering until he left; then he would leave and speak to the children of Israel what he would be commanded. 35 Then the children of Israel would see Moses’ face, that the skin of Moses’ face had become radiant, and [then when Moses was finished relating G-d’s message to the Jews] Moses would replace the covering over his face until he would come [again] to speak with Him.”

    Moses’ face was UNCOVERED when speaking to G-d.

    Moses’ face was UNCOVERED when communicating G-d’s message to the Jews.

    Paul lied. This is not the first or last time he lies in the pages of the Christian bible.

    It is amazing that missionaries claim Jews are blind because we don’t accept the lies of Paul who clearly distorts what the Jewish bible really says. They say we are blind because we don’t believe one guy who lies written in a book by anonymous people whose identities are unknown?

    These are the people who believe Jews are blind because a Jew-hating book says we are and lies about what the Jewish bible really says?

    The blindness and stubbornness is not on the side of Jews – but on the side of those who claim to “fulfill” or bible and then lie about it. Distort it. And then says hateful things about us Jews to boot (we are blind?).

    Jews didn’t “Reject” Jesus because we are blind. The truth is that Jesus never did anything worthy according to the Jewish bible’s requirements to accept him (or anyone else yet) as the messiah. Why anyone would believe the words of Paul — a man with no authority who even reversed many of Jesus’ supposed teachings boggles the mind. Blind indeed!

  8. the reason why god can’t become a man is the same reason why he CAN’T leave his omniscience and then get informed by his omniscience what he MISSED out on

  9. Ulrich says:

    WOW just what I was searching for. Came here by searching
    for news

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