Holocaust: – An Open Letter to “Concerned Reader”
Dear Concerned Reader
I wrote that without Christianity the holocaust would have never happened. You called my statement “inflammatory” and “speculative.” You justify your position with the claim that Hitler and the Nazis were not religious people.
I will ask you some questions.
Are you aware that the crime of the holocaust was committed by many people from many nations? Germans, Austrians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Romanians, Poles, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, Norwegians, Belgians, and Slovakians all provided manpower for this crime to be committed. Some people from these nations actively killed Jews while many more participated by providing technical assistance. Americans, British, and Swiss also participated by sending Jewish refugees back to Germany.
Why did these people from such a diversity of backgrounds all hate the Jews? What do Hitler’s personal religious beliefs have to do with the Ukrainian executioners, with the French policemen who rounded up Jews for the Germans or with the Austrian clergymen who gladly turned in their records so that the Nazis can identify their victims?
Are you perhaps not aware that for centuries upon dark centuries the various denominations of Christianity have been teaching that Jews are children of the devil, that they rob their host countries of their wealth, that they are deceitful, that they are morally corrupt and that they murder Christian children? Do you not realize that the official mouthpieces of the various denominations of Christianity consistently defamed the Jews through every means of communication available to them? Did you read any Catholic or Protestant periodicals from pre-war Europe? Are you aware that the various denominations of Christianity taught people to associate hatred of Jews with religious virtue? Are you aware that this slander was not a peripheral teaching of the various Churches but that the subject of the depravity of the Jew was a popular subject of discussion for these men of the cloth?
You have an intense and sustained international propaganda campaign against the Jewish people. This propaganda campaign is consistently maintained for almost 2000 years in many countries. Do you think so little of man that you believe that without this massive propaganda campaign that disdain for the Jew would have run so deep?
If you dismiss my connection between the deep hatred that the Church cultivated against the Jew and the crime committed by the members of the Church against the Jew as mere speculation then please tell me what would be acceptable to you as “cause and effect” in the study of history?
I have some more questions for you. You dismiss Hitler and Nazism as being irreligious. But Hitler and many Nazis saw themselves as Christians. Many of them did not respect established Churches, which they saw as corrupt, but most of them saw themselves as followers of Jesus. They believed that their hatred of Jews was an authentic expression of their faith in Jesus. Even those who were not religious at all understood that their hatred for Jews was an honorable Christian virtue. On what basis do you ignore their claims? You disassociate the hatred of these men from Christianity and you attribute it to the general depravity of man. What is the basis for your position?
You then compound the difficulty by taking the opposite position when it comes to charity and love. You readily believe people who tell you that their charity and love are expressions of their faith in Jesus. Why do you so quickly accept their claims? Why do you not attribute their goodness to the general conscience of man? Why the double standard?
If you believe that my logic is faulty or that my facts are wrong then please correct me. Otherwise, retract your position.
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
Only a Revisionist historian can doubt what this article states
Indeed, Jew-hatred was well established by 300 CE and written and codified into the constitution, rules and regulations of the christian church. If the protestants believe their reformation was any better for Jews, just read the hatred spewed forth by Martin Luther.
Hello Dellane
Your comment here is wholey ignorant and based Purley on your miss concept of the Christian teaching.
Whatever the so called church were preaching and practicing were then based on there own ideas, and not on the teachings and practices of Christ, His diciples or apostles.
You already touched the concept of false teaching by your own ignorance. 300 yrs is a long time for false ideas to creep into a set standard. The nation of nimrod and the children of Israel prove this very clearly. Which incidentally only took a matter of weeks.
Man has, and always will behave against Gods desired will. Days past and presently, yes the church has rewritten Gods word to suit themselves. For at most the Mosaic law practised by Israel in first century Israel was as far from God as the visable church are today. Its unrecognisable. Theres no difference today as there was then.
The NT never ever teaches Antisemitism, however the OT does teach that the God of Israel will pour out curse upon curse, scatterings etc if you reject Him. Does that make Adonai a antisemitic God??
Israel rejected Gods offer of the Kingdom, by rejecting His Son. You do the maths.
Paul
Jew hatred is present in the Christian Scriptures. It took 300 years for it to be codified into law but most of the writings of the Church Fathers are saturated with Jew hatred.
You are not the supreme authority of interpretation of the Christian Scriptures. many followers of Jesus who were concerned about the ethical and moral side of his contradictory teachings also believed that he taught hatred of Jews. On what basis do you reject their interpretation?
And by the way – this one is from a while back – do you believe that Psalm 41 is talking about Jesus?
Hello
Jew hatred is not in the teachings of/ by Jesus the Jew. He did have issues with the Jews and their ways, of course, but thats not a arguement for antisemitism.
Just because someone disagrees with a moral or ethical view, doesnt make him antisemitic. Infact you could argue that Christ was anti gentile, seeing that His ministry was primarily aimed at Jews.
Are you arguing your case from the history books post Christ, or from the NT?
Jesus quotes part of Psalm 41, the part which is relivant to Him. He doesnt quote all the psalm, we know that because the NT quotes only the line in which Jesus was referrring to.
You assume a contridiction is present. The gospel account only records what was said at the time. There is no contextual reason to quote all the psalm, as only the immediate context is relivant. Why not quote all the psalms aswell? No reason, thats why.
“The nation of nimrod and the children of Israel prove this very clearly….For at most the Mosaic law practised by Israel in first century Israel was as far from God as the visable church are today. Its unrecognisable.” (I won’t comment on all the writing errors.)
This is EXACTLY the point of this article. The ONLY reason Xtians seem to use the “OT” is to use it as a weapon of derision against the Jew. Why, Paul, are you, as most other Xtians, so obsessed with this. I submit it is the deep anti-semitism that you have been indoctrinated with via the Xtian text. Most people are unable to look at Themselves analytically and understand what someone else finds obvious.
To your point, nowhere, absolutely Nowhere does Hashem say curse will be brought upon curse for “rejecting him”. If you think so, then SHOW IT!. What it DOES say is to follow the Torah of Moshe, as Malachi so says. Furthermore, you have absolutely NO idea what following Torah consists of. Tehillim (Psalms) makes my point, Psalms 147:19,20. In other words, the Gentiles have no concept of Torah Judaism.
Why is it Xtians get so riled up when Jews refuse to adhere to their incoherent religion. I daresay it may be because they themselves don’t believe it.
Hello Sharbano
Im not sure where you get the idea that believers in Christ get riled. Looking at your post here, there is only one person getting riled. Your idea of Believers getting riled because Jews will not adhere to their views is totally nonense.
The NT, as I have been saying here, is that believers are, By Gods GRACE, given the gift of salvation through faith in Him. Once upon a time, I was living under devine condemnation because of the sin nature. But due to Gods grace, and through my faith in His Son, I was given the promised hope of eternal life. Christ being the first fruits of the resurrection.
My previous comments stated that salvation is not a reward, nor is it earned. Its a free gift offered to all humanity.
My first text is;
Rom ch 8-28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He forenew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
My second is;
Rom ch 11 v7- 10
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks, but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written.
” God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see, And ears that they should not hear, To this very day”
And David says
” Let thier table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow their back always”.
My point is this;
I dont get riled about Israel refusing to see Jesus as the Messiah. From my previous statement on grace and combining these 2 texts it is very evident that Gods grace has befallen on to the gentiles because of Israels rejection of her Messiah. If it wasn’t for your rejection I would have no inheritance into the Abrahamic covenant. By Gods predestined, fore knowledge He alone knew your rejection would happen. He didnt choose it, or made it happen, but by His permissible will and pre election He for new it.
Gen ch 12 v3
The offer was given, but rejected. So I have my life because of the rejection. Hardly a reason to get riled, when it is God who has done all, not me. When one recieves a gift, one rejoices in it, one does not get riled! This is the point Paul makes about not boasting in the inheritance. It also shows why Paul made the point of taking the Gospel to the Jew first.
He knew the importance of the rightful recipients are his kinsfolk, the Jews!
Again hardly antisemitic.
Finally on the point of curses and punishment, try reading the closing chapters of deuteronomy.
Hello Sharbano
Just saw you other post.
When you say ” that some one told me it was there” Im not 100% sure what you mean here. But I will say this, nobody told me anything, other than what I explaned earlier. The content and only content of the gospel message.
That Jesus died on the cross to forgive my sins. Through His death all is forgiven, through His resurrection I have a assurance in and through His love of the sufferings of the cross.
The point I was making is that scripture can only be understood once one has received salvation, because now there is a new spiritual regeneration in the believer. It is the new residing, indwelling Holy Spirit that guides, convicts and teaches truth.
Are you saying scripture can Only be understood once one has received salvation such as Stephen. His “truth” from the Xtian “holy spirit” was lacking in the extreme. How could ANYone follow a book, supposedly guided by G-d, that has so many many errors. Apparently your god is error prone. Evidently it takes a blinded Jew, in a stupor, in order to see. And YOU want us to follow in your footsteps. I don’t think so.
You know, that really gets old. This is the Constant fallback position, Jews are blinded, in a stupor.
How can you be an inheritor when you have no familial relationship to the House of Israel? Are you saying you will be able to inherit the land of Israel? My brother can inherit my parents estate but can anyone else who is not of the family? Now, if my parents would have “Adopted” an individual then, he could acquire an inheritance.
Is that ALL you can do is come here with your missionizing rhetoric. You can “assume” all day long but Jews are Not blinded OR in a stupor. We have thoroughly, and I mean thoroughly analyzed the Xtian text and found it to be wholly lacking. In each and every case where a Xtian purports to show relevance to Torah it is found to be nothing but wishful thinking. You may Want to call it relevant but it simply cannot stand on its own. You’re merely left with the twisting of clearly written words. But your desire overwhelms your understanding and analytical thought.
Very morally clear.
Hello all
Yes all your statements are true about the crimes committed in the Holocaust. However the NT or Christ and true body of the church are not responsible. Your statements are age old, and are unfortunately inaccurate. Your viewpoint is based purley on, yes crimes and antisemitism, which are real, but the offenders are not biblically borne again believers. Anybody on earth can claim afiliation with any group whats so ever, and carry out its own perceived practices on that said groups doctrines. Unless you can show anywhere in the NT that teaches such, you can then justify your statements as the one presented here.
The claims of Jesus and the Messiahship of Jesus can only be verified on scripture and scripture alone, not on what has perversley happened to Jews in the unholy name of Christ.
Jesus didnt die accidently, which in turn established Christianity, no more than He or the church came to destroy the Jews or to re write the Law if Moses.
Christ came to die a substitutional death, to pay the penalty for sin, for the whole of mankind,
so that whoever shall believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Hardly antisemitism here, just the love of The God of Israel, giving His only Begotten Son.
Paul, you wrote, “Anybody on earth can claim afiliation with any group whats so ever, and carry out its own perceived practices on that said groups doctrines.”
Right, that applies to you too. Therefore, by your logic, there is no way to now which Christian holds the true Christian way.
Sorry, I meant to write, “There is no way to know.” Wish I could edit my comments after I post them :).
Hi Dina
Yes I know, I do it all the time!!!
Well yes I agree with you in part. Who is telling the truth??
Only by reading scripture can one know who is and who is not. All the evidence required is within the lines of the Bible. Without discernment, and spiriual truth, nothing can be understood. The God of Israel is the God of truth, not lies. Only He can show truth to a believer.
Jesus made it very clear that false prohets, teachers, Wolfs dressed as lambs will come into the church, wheat and tares growing up together within the unity of the church.
He said many will say in that day, did we not cast out demons in your name, prophesie and do many miracles in your name. Jesus said depart from me, you workers of iniquity.
So here is a very clear warning of false teachers. It is also mentions that the angel of darkness will manifest himself as the Angel of Light. A counterfeit church.
Only scripture not mans” interpretation” of scripture reveals the truth.
Mormons are a classic example. When I see one, I ask them a loaded question. I ask them “what made you decide to be a christian”? Or ” why choose Christ as a way of life”?
The reply given is something on the lines of ” its a journey of experience, or it seemed a good option, or the best one is, because God told me to follow Him.
I ask them, at what point did anyone preach the Gospel message to you. You know!! The word of God is the power unto salvation, as per Paul. That Christ died a sustitutional death, to pay the penalty for your sins. That He was buried, and rose the third day, and by doing so has conquered the penalty of sin which is death. Etc.
They simple refuse to acknowledge that or say its a part of it but not totally.
Once you have received the truth its all there, laid out in scripture.
“Once you have received the truth its all there, laid out in scripture.”
Only because someone TOLD you it was there. It’s amazing how anyone can believe a Distortion of the real scriptures. Only when Hashem’s Name is One will you begin to understand, so prophecy states.
Paul, unholy Christians saw themselves as Christians, which we can’t doubt, but we can say assuredly that they did not care about the ethical core of their religion. I am currently working on a response to this article, please be patient, it will take time.
Hi CR
Looking forward to your post. I keep reading your opening line. Unholy Christians saw them themselves as Christians.
Any person who has truly experienced Gods grace through His Son cannot see God and His redemption through any other eyes bar the eyes of Gods love for humanity, and definitely on a one to one personal basis. To read and understand scripture, one first has to be in a certain relationship with God Himself. Not a holy thou, untarnished, perefect than perfect condition. The human condition is fallen, the word of God is spiritual. The atheistic and unbelieving world sees scripture as either nonsense, or reads scripture as he self determines, because everything written of God, is God breathed. The human, fallen flesh is enmity before God, so His written words are totally alien to a hard, unbelieving heart.
My point is,
How can a believer in Christ who has become separate (Holy) from the world become unseperated. Well technically, and scripturally, one cannot loose his salvation, but one can walk away from God and sevre any personal relationship with Him, here on earth. But any one person who for what ever reason sees it scripturally correct to harm another human being, who uses what ever scriptual reason ( which doesnt exist), is not of Christs teaching or the Apastolic teaching of the Church.
Yes man gets its wrong and makes mistakes. But that doesnt justify past, and present antisemitism in the church, which I would be foolish to say is fact, but that still doesnt teach that the church and believers of Jesus is or are antisemitic.
Man will try and corrupt the word of God by many means. Slavery of blacks were justified by men, by using the curse of dan. Jews, yes have been blamed for the death of Jesus. Nonsense of course, but there you have it. All one has to do is read the NT and see that Christ the Jew, came purposely to die on the cross and nobody, not even satan could stop Him. If Israel had accepted Jesus as their Messiah, Rome would have still crucified Him anyway. Along with hundreds of the Leaders, Pharisees etc in the Jewish revolt. It wouldn’t matter either way, Jesus came to die, to pay the blood atonement.
The written word only, not tarnished blood stained history can determine Jesus as the Messiah of Israel.
Reminder
There is a comment policy. Please keep comments on the topic of the original post.
Con, you wrote this:
“Nowhere does scripture teach that the wicked man who persists in his evil ways and actions gets into heaven.”
Then you wrote this:
“Note carefully, too, that it is a misconception, and a big one, that I or anyone else is saying that you must earn your way to heaven.”
Is it just me, or does anyone else see the contradiction?
It’s not a contradiction to state that though G-d has certain things he expects from our deeds, it does not mean if we do these things, that we are inherently superior to anyone. Earning one’s way to heaven is like saying G-d owes me x, while biblical faith says, G-d commands X, and I do it, knowing full well that he will have mercy on whom he will. G-d rewards, G-d honors the covenant, he does not treat righteousness as a checklist. Does that make more sense?
Yes, that does make more sense. God never owes us anything. However, He has promised to reward the OBEDIENT and punish the DISOBEDIENT. Check out how many times the Torah says things like “if you will listen to My voice” followed by a promise of reward and vice versa. That means that OUR DEEDS MATTER.
Inherent superiority never came into the conversation. So I don’t even know why you brought that up.
There are a very large number of Christians that agree that deeds matter. It is scriptural that our deeds matter 100%
CR and Paul, it seems to me that you so focus on the messages of love and being good to others that you see in Christianity that you want to reject any evil that can be done in its name. I can understand that, but by refusing to see the reality you are setting the stage that allows evil to happen again and again.
We Jews are very open about our evil doers. Our bible is full of stories of Jews who did the wrong thing (even great men like Solomon and Moses!). There is no good man who does not sin!
Rather than rejecting the idea that there can be evil Christians, embrace it and then work to rid your fellows from their ways. I speak as an outsider and hope my words are accepted int he intent of true brotherhood in which I offer them. I mean no insult.
Zev, G-d forbid that I ignore the evils done in Jesus’ name. Saying that there is an injustice done in blaming ALL CHRISTIANS for the Shoah, is not the same as saying that Christians are guiltless. May G-d forbid that I ever claim Christians are guiltless.The anti Judaism of the Church fathers, and of many bishops contemporary with WW2 did play a large role in the climate that lead directly to the Shoah. Replacement theology and charges of deicide are chief among the factors contributing to it.
However, to say that the absence of the Church would mean the absence of the Shoah is a highly speculative statement. That is all I’m saying. Nazi anti semitism was not a forgone Christian conclusion. Hitler and the Nazis sought to kill many many many people, and his designs extended beyond Jews.
It has been said that I ignore Nazi claims on Christianity, but I do not do so lightly. I do this based on their own contradictory statements regarding it, and on the basis of the very common historical political practice that sees secular powers use religion for there own purposes, regardless of religious sensibilities. Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Hitler, Americas founding fathers, etc. all saw the political use of religion, and the appearance of piety as valuable tools for controlling and moderating the populace. Below are some quotes from Hitler, as well as information from the Nuremberg trials detailing the Nazi stance and ultimate goals regarding theChristian religion.
“National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity….Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.” (Hitler quoted on 11 July 1941, in H.R. Trevor-Roper, Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941-1944, pp. 6-7).”
“Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer…The decisive falsification of Jesus’ doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work… for the purposes of personal exploitation…Didn’t the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it’s in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea.” (Ibid., pp. 63-65).
“It could be argued that, despite his own words and those of his associates, Hitler was not really religious but just cynically exploiting the religiosity of his audience.” (Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, 2006, p. 313).
http://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/donovan/show.asp?id=773&query
This R & A report provides its own description on its title page: “This study describes, with illustrative factual evidence, Nazi purposes, policies and methods of persecuting the Christian Churches in Germany and occupied Europe.” The report characterizes the National Socialist ideology of aggressive warfare as inherently inimical to Christianity and the Christian Churches, and names specific actions the Nazis took to suppress, terrorize, intimidate, and otherwise persecute Christian clergy and churches within Germany and in the conquered territories annexed to the Reich. For each case, the report suggests a means of solving “The Problem of Proof.” This document is a typewritten mimeograph copy of excellent quality on sturdy, slightly browning paper.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/jackson.html#The%20Battle%20against%20the%20Churches
A second source of information on the Nuremberg trials, shows that the ultimate plan of the Reich was to use the churches for its own political purposes as many rulers have done in the past. Like in everything else, the Nazis used coercion, going so far as to send all dissenting voices to the camps. They had the goal of the total subjugation of Christianity to the state, so that it would become an inert component. They were far from interested in Christianity’s actual views.
I will write more shortly.
Con, pay attention to you own proofs:
“It could be argued that, despite his own words and those of his associates, Hitler was not really religious but just cynically exploiting the religiosity of his audience.” (Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, 2006, p. 313).
Ponder that for a few moments, if you will.
CR, your opening paragraph seemed so insightful and grasped my point so well — and then you went and threw it all away with the comment “the absence of the Church would mean the absence of the Shoah is a highly speculative statement.”
If there hadn’t been anti-Jewish hatred with its basis in Christianity there wouldn’t have been a Jewish holocaust at all. Yes indeed the Nazis murdered millions of non-Jews, but it wasn’t systematic genocide of an entire people. Only the “final solution” of ridding the world of Jews (Judenfrei) was the reason Jews were targets of the Nazis for extermination. This hatred had its entire basis on Christianity, not the least of which was Martin Luther’s “On the Jews and their Lies.”
Martin Luther, quoting the Christian bible, wrote “He did not call them Abraham’s children, but a “brood of vipers” [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, “He has a demon’ [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a “brood of vipers”; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: “If you were Abraham’s children ye would do what Abraham did…. You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham’s but the devil’s children, nor can they bear to hear this today.”
Luther also wrote “set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians. . . I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. . . their rabbis (should) be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. . . ”
The Nazis displayed Luthers “On the Jews and Their Lies” during Nuremberg rallies. Archbishop Robert Runcie has asserted that: “Without centuries of Christian antisemitism, Hitler’s passionate hatred would never have been so fervently echoed…because for centuries Christians have held Jews collectively responsible for the death of Jesus. On Good Friday Jews, have in times past, cowered behind locked doors with fear of a Christian mob seeking ‘revenge’ for deicide. Without the poisoning of Christian minds through the centuries, the Holocaust is unthinkable.”
Without Christianity there would have been no JEWISH holocaust from the Nazis. The fact that you argue against this, that you deny this clear fact, is heartbreaking.
Did you not read anything else? You think I’m ignoring what Christians have done, I’m not.
CR, we are not blaming “all” Christians for the holocaust. In your post of September 23, 2014 at 10:22 am you spoke of us blaming all Christians, and no one has said that. Indeed we’ve remarked on the memorials at the Holocaust museum in Israel to the righteous among the nations (most of whom were Christians).
There was a Christian priest named Kolbe who sheltered 2000 Jews in his monastery during World War II. For helping the Jews he was sent to the death camp, Auschwitz. This wise priest would risk his life at night going around asking people if he could help them. They had a rule at Auschwitz that if anyone tried to escape they killed 10 men in retaliation. One day they thought a prisoner had escaped (he was later found drowned in a camp latrine) so they were going to execute 10 men. One of those chosen called out “My poor wife! My poor children! What will they do?”
The priest Kolbe stepped forward and said “I am a Catholic priest. Let me take his place. I am old. He has a wife and children.” He sacrificed his life for a stranger. While he was dying he prayed and recited psalms.
Oh, we know there are good Christians in the world. We are not denying that. We simply ask that you recognize that the opposite is also true. If it weren’t for Christianity and its blackening of Jews into villains — both in the Christian bible and by others later (such as Luther) there would not have been systematic murders of Jews for 2000 years culminating in the Holocaust, but going on even today in Europe.
You keep saying you aren’t denying what Christians have done — but then you do just that, trying to say it wasn’t done because of Christianity. Do you not see why this troubles us so?
CR, we are not blaming “all” Christians for the holocaust. In your post of September 23, 2014 at 10:22 am you spoke of us blaming all Christians, and no one has said that. Indeed we’ve remarked on the memorials at the Holocaust museum in Israel to the righteous among the nations (most of whom were Christians).
Zev, the problem is that you are saying, IF CHRISTIANITY DIDNT EXIST then X would not have happened to Jews. That old priest (lead by his Christian faith) gave his life for another, just as his messiah had done. I am not granting the generalization that Says it wouldn’t have happened without the Church. That’s all. I’m not defending Luther, replacement theology, or anti Semites. The generalization that equates Christians and their religion with the Shoah is all I am objecting to. Christianity produces a lot of very good people, and yes, many wicked too, but to say the world would have not had the Shoah without Christian religion is too broad a statement. That’s all I’m saying! I can acknowledge evil Christian actions, evil Christian readings in their bible’s, and a negative evil history, without going so far as to say that the whole religion, hook line and sinker should never have existed. Every religion has had it’s bloodshed, every religion it’s apostates, every religion it’s sad past. This does not mean that they should therefore cease to exist.
If Islam had not existed, would there be ISIS?
The most poignant response yet.
Yes, there would Dina, because fanaticism and dictatorship doesn’t draw boundaries. South African Apartheid, North Korean aggression, genocide in Darfur, the Armenian genocide in Turkey, the Khamer rouge, etc. all thrived and are thriving on unreasoned radicalism, and hatred. I would never blame an entire entity made up of millions of people for such horrible things perpetrated by evil men. I stand right with you in condemning the evils and anti semitism typified by so many in the Church, but I can’t blame the entire religious entity. To do so would mean to say that no good whatever has come of it. I was raised Christian, my family is Christian, We’ve never killed a soul,nor advocated such.
Islam has nothing to do with it?
How many Muslims have you spoken to Dina? How many of their sacred texts have you read? Any religion’s writings can be used to do evil. ISIL is killing Muslims, Christians, Kurds, etc. they are radicalized, not your average religious person.
Does Sharia have nothing to do with Islam? Jihad? Dhimmitude?
Are you serious?
I’m going to be breaking for the holiday, talk to you soon.
Halacha and Sharia both have similar restrictions vis the question of foreigners and having positions of political power, autonomy, etc. Both allow for the death penalty for certain crimes, (after all proper protocol and legal process has been followed,). But this protocol wouldn’t necessarily mean no abuses could ever occur. As for Jihad, I’m pretty sure Halacha mandates that you fight “the wars of the L-rd” to blot out Amalek, if the Jewish people are threatened? Jihad is also as much about internal struggle as it is about warfare. I’m not saying I agree with islam, but seriously indeed. To insinuate that the same abuses couldn’t occur in Judaism as have occurred in Islam is silly. I don’t count abuses of religion as indicative of an entire religion. Not in the case of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
Why haven’t the same abuses occurred in Judaism as they have in Islam?
I absolutely disagree. It is fair to judge a religion based on the behavior of the MAJORITY of its adherents over the course of the MAJORITY of its history.
No comparison between Sharia and halacha. Sharia has built-in abuses, such as permitting wife beating and condoning killing.
There are two kinds of Jihad, and waging holy war is one of them. I don’t care about the internal struggle one, I care about the one that affects me, all right?
You have no clue about halacha if you think it’s similar to Sharia.
History shows a really bad record for Muslims and Christians, in their behavior.
Dina, off course I know there isn’t a 1 to 1 correlation between them, but there are similarities. what would you call the zealotry and infighting among Jews in the history of the second temple period? Both Sharia and Halacha have safeguards built in to avoid the abuses, but (if people are radicalized and prone to being irrational in moments of misguided zeal) the abuses and misuses of core concepts and laws can still occur. “Honor killing” in Sharia is to be legally carried out by a court only in cases of adultery, only if the offenders are caught in the prohibited act. It’s actually quite similar to pinchas’ actions when he saw a forbidden relationship going on.
Con, I’m curious to see how you defend the Koran encouraging a man to use corporal punishment if his wife is disobedient. Actually, that’s a dare. I dare you to defend this.
Also, I’m curious to see you defend rape victims having to produce four male witnesses to prove it was rape. Otherwise, they are convicted of illicit sex under Sharia. (According to Sisters in Islam, a reform group, 75% of women in prison in Pakistan are in fact rape victims.)
And I’m curious to see how you defend the Koran’s condoning of murder. This is not the same as a one-time injunction against Amalek or the Canaanite nations. It would be as if “Thou shalt not murder” in the Torah came along with a disclaimer: “except the non-believers of all the nations of the world.”
And I’d like to know why stoning women for adultery and killing homosexuals is so common in some Muslim countries (today and throughout history) despite the level of proof the Koran requires, while it has been so rare in ancient Jewish history.
Why do you think that is?
The broadness of this kind of statement is exactly what I’ve been referring to as problematic Dina. If Islam had not existed there would be no ISIS is just as broad as saying if Judaism had not existed, there would be no Christianity. This kind of sweeping statement is what bothers me, not the good points you’ve raised.
Con, what’s wrong with a sweeping statement if it is true?
It is true that if there were no Judaism, there would have been no Christianity. I have no problem with that statement.
It is true that if there were no Islam, there would be no ISIS.
It is also true that if there were no Christianity, there would have been no Holocaust.
Con, you have often appealed to scholars in your comments. Many historians–not even Jewish ones–assert that a climate of specifically Christian anti-Semitism rooted in Christian scripture allowed for the possibility of the Holocaust on the grand scale that it had been carried out.
You have a degree in history, yes? Then you ought to know how to do a little research. Put your bias aside and read what numerous scholars have said on this subject.
In what way am I being biased? I’ve admitted the truth of your objections, with the sole exception being that the Shoah was not exclusively the result of Christianity, and that to say such ignores important factors. Im not denying the Christian contribution to the Shoah at all.
I’m fairly certain that it would have happened without Christianity in existence, as there is ample evidence to suggest that the Nazis were genocidal nut jobs without any religion being involved at all. Hitler wanted to eradicate many ethnic groups that he saw as less than German. The Romani (gypsies) are one such group that were targeted.
Con, you really think you are not biased? Is there such a thing as an objective human being? I have never met any. We are all biased in one way or another.
Your focus on the fact that Nazism was a secular ideology misses the point entirely. You need to get some history, sir. I’ll talk to you after you’ve done substantial research.
By the way, Con, you are misrepresenting our argument. We did not say that the Holocaust was exclusively the result of Christianity. We argued that centuries of Christian anti-Semitism created a climate that made the Holocaust possible.
Absent such a climate, a holocaust of such staggering proportions would not have gotten off the ground.
Surely you can see the nuance here.
CR, all you are saying is “to say the world would have not had the Shoah without Christian religion is too broad a statement” and this statement is wrong, hurtful and an attempt to blind yourself to the facts.
Without Christianity beating hatred of the Jews into the Germans, Poles, etc. there would not have been an attempt to exterminate the global Jewish population.
Your continued insistance that non-Jews perished overlooks that core fact — the Nazis were out to exterminate the Jewish people. Most Polish Jews (perhaps 90% of their pre-war population) were slaughtered during the Holocaust, while most Christian Poles survived.
What percentage of Germans in World War II were Christians? 54% were Protestant Christians and 40% were Catholics. 94% were Christians! Hitler himself said “”We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian.” Ever hear of Hans Kerrl, the Nazi Minister for Church Affairs?
Remove the blinders from your eyes CR. Earlier you quoted the document Dabru Emet. Did you ignore the part in the middle which said “Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out.”?
Saul Friedländer writes that: “Not one social group, not one religious community, not one scholarly institution or professional association in Germany and throughout Europe declared its solidarity with the Jews.” Where were all those good Christians who could have stopped the Nazis? Granted there were righteous gentiles who helped — primarily in secret. . . why didn’t anyone speak out and stop it?
American historian Lucy Dawidowicz discusses the long anti-Jewish history of Christianity. She writes that the “antisemitic descent” from Luther, the author of On the Jews and Their Lies, to Hitler is “easy to draw.”
Easy for most, but apparently not easy for you to understand.
Some on the blog have stated: if Christianity didn’t exist (that’s a very large collection of multifaceted groups with various approaches to scripture, and tradition,) that the Shoah wouldn’t have happened to the Jewish people. It is only in this respect that I have said you are generalizing too much. You are not wrong, but the scope is too broad, that’s all I am saying.
I have never denied, nor sought to deny the historical role of the Church in anti Judaism, or anti semitism, I decry blood libels, anti Semitic legislation, pogroms, crusades, ghettos, etc. but you are drawing a 1 to 1 link from the actions of ancient and medieval theocratic religious powers, monarchs, and institutions, under an umbrella entity called Christianity, Comprised of millions of people, directly to the nazi genocide against Jews. This generalization ignores the political and social structure of ancient and medieval theocratic states, ignores the role that Eugenics played in Nazi ideology, ignores social Darwinism as typified by that ideology, ignores the Christian role in resisting the Nazis before Hitler’s rise to power including the beer hall putsch in 1923, (not too mention over 30 assassination attempts on hitler’s life.) and also ignores that Hitler was manhandling the Church in a lot of ways once he came to power. Hitler was silently denounced by the Church. (Which it was wrong of the Church to be so quiet.) It cannot be ignored that those who denounced the Nazis publicly were taken to the camps. Prominent priests, nuns, pastors, laymen, and whole groups like the Jehovahs witnesses were disposed of if they rallied publicly after the Nazis received power, or held to their faith against the state . If the pope had spoken out, so much the better it would have been.
CHRISTIANS WILL ALWAYS bear the guilt of their past, present, and future (G-d forbid) sins against the Jewish people, including all of your points, but to draw the one to one connections you continually draw, is not indicative of the context in its entirety.
Are you denying the inherent anti-semitic themes of the Xtian text. This is the basis for the argument. I recall growing up hearing how the Jews killed the Xtian god and it was only when I retorted with, “You should thank the Jews because if he didn’t die you wouldn’t have had your salvation”. It was then I heard no more.
If there isn’t that inherent issue then why is it so very many Xtians, when confronted reply with something the Israelites did in the past, and say SEE, look at you Jews, where the text is criticizing the actions of those Israelites. This is the accepted norm when Xtians are at a loss to explain an issue. There is an automatic opinion of negativity when there is a confrontation. Has anyone ever heard of a complimentary remark made regarding Pharisees. That word has become a pejorative in even news articles. Where did this pejorative come from. Out of the blue? No, it comes directly from Jsus remarks. There are numerous such examples.
Are you denying the inherent anti-semitic themes of the Xtian text. This is the basis for the argument. I recall growing up hearing how the Jews killed the Xtian god and it was only when I retorted with, “You should thank the Jews because if he didn’t die you wouldn’t have had your salvation”. It was then I heard no more. I also
That’s exactly the kind of retort Christians need Sharbano, because that’s exactly what their own scripture says. It was nobodies fault that Jesus died, and if Jews had accepted Jesus, they would have no salvation. I wrote a huge response on this very issue here https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/the-guilt-of-books/#comment-14936
And here https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/the-guilt-of-books/#comment-14936 (see my comment to Paul.)
Con, because the Jews are God’s witnesses, the fact that they rejected Jesus means Jesus was a false prophet.
Con,
If it is nobody’s fault that Jesus died, then he should not have told Judas that it were better a millstone had been hung around his neck and he been drowned. In fact, Jesus should have turned himself in. The NT is clearly interested in making villains, not just Judas, but also the Jews.
Jim
Correcting an error on my part. I wrote that Jesus told Judas that it were better that he have a millstone tied around his neck and be drowned. He told Judas it were better that he not be born. I just crossed a wire in my brain. The millstone around the neck belongs to those who cause “one of these little ones to sin.” Sorry for the mistake.
Jim
Con, you have come the farthest of any Christian I’ve talked to in owning up to the Christian sin of anti-Semitism and persecution of the Jewish people, with perhaps the exception of Charles Soper. All the other Christians I’ve spoken to have dismissed it by saying that those were not real Christians, because real Christians don’t hate Jews.
I’m pointing this out because I want to give you kudos for that.
You’re still missing a bit of history. I recommend that you read “A Moral Reckoning” by Daniel Goldhagen, a solidly researched book, albeit by a Jew (so you might feel he is biased). “Holy Hatred” by Robert Michael is another solidly researched book that will help you see that we are not coming out of left field.
I hope you read these books and get back to me and let me know what you think.
3 million (mostly Christian) ethnic poles died in the Shoah too, as did the disabled and many elderly Germans, and French resistance fighters, and Many others. This is what I find so broad and sweeping about your statements regarding Nazis and Christianity. You say I’m ignoring history, and being hurtful. This blog has admitted flatly that Mockery of Christians (as idolaters) is an acceptable practice, (that’s extremely offensive,) extremely hurtful, but I can let that go. I have admitted that Christians have done very evil things in history, including contribute to the Shoah as have Muslims, but that does not mean I have a basis to lay all the blame for it on either religion, and it’s billions of adherents. It’s deeply offensive to me that you would lay this horrible historical event squarely on Christian shoulders. You say “oh, there were lights in the darkness.” That right there means you be able to acknowledge (at least in part) that the evil of the Shoah is not a forgone conclusion of being a Christian, or following this faith.
Show me where we said that mockery of Christians is acceptable. We said mockery of idolatry is–just read the prophets to see how much they mocked it. Christians are people, however misguided, who are created in the image of God. As such, we respect them.
You’ve got it all wrong.
You fail to understand what changed in history when Christianity was born. Systematic persecution of the Jewish people is directly related to the ascendancy of Christianity. This is not speculation. It is historical fact.
Oy gevault!!! He still refuses to understand plain English! CR goes quoting that 3 million Poles were killed. Yes indeed — and that misses my point ENTIRELY. Were the Nazis out to exterminate all Poles? Did they decide to wipe the earth of all Poles?
There is your answer!
As I wrote earlier Your continued insistance that non-Jews perished overlooks that core fact — the Nazis were out to exterminate the Jewish people. Most Polish Jews (perhaps 90% of their pre-war population) were slaughtered during the Holocaust, while most Christian Poles survived.
What percentage of Germans in World War II were Christians? 54% were Protestant Christians and 40% were Catholics. 94% were Christians! Hitler himself said “”We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian.” Ever hear of Hans Kerrl, the Nazi Minister for Church Affairs?
Sure there are mass murders done that are not in the name of Christianity. Stalin murdered millions. That is deplorable, but it has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is that Christians have murdered and misused Jews for 2000 years in the name of their religion, bible and god!
BTW Zev, when you blame a religion, you blame it’s adherents.
Concerned Reader
No one blamed “all Christians” for the holocaust. The fact that you are trying (consciously or subconsciously) to derail the discussion in that direction should trouble you.
What I did say was that without the institution called “Christianity” the holocaust would not have happened.
Let me give you a little parable.
You have an institution that pours gasoline. They don’t pour it everywhere, only on a certain city. They keep on pouring gasoline on that city for one thousand and eight hundred years (give or take a few). Then someone comes and puts a match to the gasoline and the entire city goes up in flames.
So I say that without this institution that poured gasoline then the entire city would not have gone up in flames.
You call that “highly speculative”?!
Do you think it is important to know if the match-lighter actually belonged to the institution?
Do you understand the parable?
Refute or retract.
Concerned Reader
When you blame a religion – you do NOT blame its adherents. You are encouraging its adherents to realize what they are adhering to. You obviously believe that the adherents are not fully aware of what their religion represented or caused – or else you wouldn’t waste your breath talking to them.
Todah Rabbi. You have expressed my point succinctly.
Rabbi, I agree with you that anti Jewish texts and traditions are evil and served as fuel for the fire.
Concerned Reader
But do you still believe that without the pouring of gasoline the holocaust would have happened?
I couldn’t claim to know that rabbi. Judging the Nazis by their own fruits though, I would say that since genocides happened before, and after the Shoah, that its not impossible that it could have happened. People fear and scapegoat what they don’t understand, that’s not a phenomenon limited to one particular group.
Anti-semitism is a unique phenomenon. That’s why there is a special word for it, as opposed to general racism.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/the-guilt-of-books/
I don’t think Xtians fully understand the scope of the situation. There’s hardly a Jew that hasn’t been touched somehow, someway by the history of Xtianity. These days a great many have relatives of the Shoah. But there are also those who have ancestors that were affected previous to the Shoah. How much do those of today know any details of the Russian pogroms. These were directed specifically to the Jew. There are other situations just a horrific in other lands. This is the issue when confining oneself to just WWII. There’s a history here that simply cannot be ignored.
How many other such Xtians, such as Paul, who think the Jews are cursed because they simply do not and will not succumb to Xtian thinking. It is that Xtian doctrine of the NT that supports this belief, although it is spoken in in terms to dismiss the obvious. This is the same attitude that was pervasive among the many nations throughout history. It is clear and irrefutable proof that the same attitudes in times past are still prevalent in many of those Xtians to this day. Therein lies the belief that takes very little to become the impetus for a recurrence of times past.This is the thinking that “Allowed” the Shoah to occur, and to ignore the source is to have the same resurface.
Sharbano, you wrote, “There’s hardly a Jew that hasn’t been touched somehow, someway by the history of Xtianity.” This is so true!
Last night I watched a TV show on the Jewish channel about a woman, Genie Milgrom, who felt Jewish and set out to prove that, though raised as a Christian, she was a Jew. She went back 15 maternal generations and discovered that her 15th great grand mother was a Jew, and so she also was a Jew (as the line was maternal).
Why had her family converted to Christianity? They were Jews in Spain when, in 1492, the King and Queen decreed that Jews must convert to Christianity, be killed, or be exiled with none of their worldly goods. All done in the name of Christianity.
How many Christians know that in 1492 this happened to the Jews of Spain?
How many Christians think of hte Spanish Inquisition as anything but a historical footnote, when to Jews it is still a very real part of our world due to its ramifications to our people? http://www.shavei.org/communities/bnei_anousim/personal_stories-bnei_anousim/shavei-israel-profile-15-grandmothers-and-a-hidden-jewish-legacy-the-story-of-genie-milgrom/?lang=en
Oy gevault!!! He still refuses to understand plain English! CR goes quoting that 3 million Poles were killed. Yes indeed — and that misses my point ENTIRELY. Were the Nazis out to exterminate all Poles? Did they decide to wipe the earth of all Poles?
The nazis were out to KILL anyone that opposed their twisted ideology Zev. I’m not denying the contribution of Christianity to the climate, but acknowledging that fact does not go to the level you are going to here.
He still doesn’t get it. He refuses to acknowledge the Nazi intent to exterminate the entire Jewish people with murdering SOME people who were murdered not for what they were but who they were. . .
Exactly. The Final Solution to the Jewish Problem.
I understand full well that the nazi intent was to exterminate Jewry, I’ve never denied that! My contention was only ever that this act perpetrated by the Nazis was not a forgone Christian conclusion, or a necessary condition of being a member of the Christian religion, please please quit twisting and misrepresenting what I’ve been saying. All I have said is that you cannot state with certainty that the holocoust would not have happened if Christianity didn’t exist. I have not denied a single thing. I am saying that it cannot be known what might otherwise have been.
Be well
Calling the genocide of over half the worldwide Jewish population as “this act perpetrated by the Nazis was not a forgone Christian conclusion” is insulting. “This act”???? You don’t feel comfortable using actual words like slaughter and murder?
CR, I’ve already shown you that 95% of Germans were Christians. I’ve shown you that the Nazis used Martin Luther’s quotes from “On the Jews and Their Lies” – you know Luther, the founder of Protestantism??
Sadly I’ve concluded that you so want to ignore the evil done in the name of Christianity that you refuse to open your eyes to the truth. The Nazis weren’t the first either, they were just in a long line of Christian atrocities done to Jews from nearly the beginning of the religion to today. Yes today.
• Intermarriage and sexual intercourse between Christians and Jews illegal
• Jews prohibited from eating with Christians
• Jews in the Empire could not build synagogues, read the Tanach in Hebrew,
• Jews were forbidden from gathering in public places,
• Jews couldn’t celebrate Passover before Easter,
• Jews couldn’t give evidence in a judicial case in which a Christian was a party,
• Decrees by the early Catholic Church (partial list)
• Councils of Orleans (533-541)_prohibited marriages between Christians and Jews and forbade the conversion to Judaism by Christians.
• Trulanic Synod (692)_prohibited Christians from being treated by Jewish doctors.
• Synod of Narbonne (1050)_prohibited Christians from living in Jewish homes.
• Synod of Gerona (1078)_required Jews to pay taxes to support the Church.
• Third Lateran Council (1179)_prohibited certain medical care to be provided by Christians to Jews.
• Fourth Lateran Council (1215)_required Jews to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians.
• Council of Basel (1431-1443)_forbade Jews to attend universities, them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons.
• The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
• Blood Libel _ In 1144, a myth began in England that Jews murdered Christian children. This myth was expanded to become an accusation which persisted for centuries that the Jews used the blood of Christian children in the preparation of their Passover unleavened bread (matzohs). This “blood libel” was ironic in that the consumption of any blood is expressly prohibited by Jewish law. The blood libel lie was told by the Nazis to the Arabs who still use this lie against Jews. This is even more ironic when one realizes Jews are forbidden from eating even the blood of kosher animals!
So this didn’t start with the Nazis — no it is a long held Christian tradition.
I don’t expect you to wake up and see the truth. I expect yet another post from you denying that any of this was done as a result of long Christian anti-Jewish history and the words against Jews in the Christian bible. No one has to put words in your mouth — you are more than capable of presenting your point of view. Sadly.
This is only a fraction of what Jews suffered at the hands of Christians. They were expelled over 70 times (sometimes several times from the same place, after being allowed to come back). They were forced into ghettos. They were forced out of every occupation except moneylending–then hated for it. Forced conversions, stake burnings, book burnings, forced disputations that ended with more punishment–the list is endless.
I’m being discrete in my writing Zev, it’s not meant to insult you. I’m not using the word murder because we all know it was murder and evil.
Con, if that’s not what you meant then stop bringing up the stats on how many gentiles were killed during WWII. Every life lost is a tragedy, but that is not relevant to the point we are trying to make.
A war specifically targeting Jews, not Christians, was perpetrated. And yes, the climate of CHRISTIAN anti-Semitism made that possible.
Here’s an example.
When Hitler began his euthanasia program against the elderly and the mentally and physically disabled, massive protests by the Catholic Church stopped him–at least publicly.
This shows that Christians had tremendous influence over Hitler’s policies.
Had there been similar protests against the calculated genocide of the Jewish people, Hitler could not have succeeded in carrying out his plans–at least not on the scale that he did. But there were none.
That is one point to consider.
Here is a second point to consider. Anti-semitism was a respectable institution until the 1960s. Christians could be–and were–publicly and unapologetically anti-Semitic without any condemnation or opposition from other Christians. This is not speculation, sir.
Here is my third and last point for your consideration.
In the last 2,000 years, Jews have suffered unspeakably at the hands of Christians in Christian countries. They also suffered–though somewhat less so–at the hands of Muslims in Islamic countries. They suffered not at all at the hands of, say, Hindus, although a Jewish presence in India was maintained for many centuries. Likewise, I have never heard of Buddhist pogroms.
Keep in mind that I am speaking ONLY of the last 2,000 years.
What do Christianity and Islam have in common?
A sacred text that vilifies Jews.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that only the followers of religions whose sacred texts speak venomously of Jews have persecuted them in the last 2,000 years? How can you fail to see this simple fact?
In closing, I will repeat what I have said many times on this blog. Christianity claimed to lead its followers down a path that would be morally superior to Judaism. We have only to compare Christian societies to Jewish societies over the last 2,000 years to see that Christianity failed spectacularly. As nice, kind, and respectful as you are, you as a Christian represent the broken moral legacy of Christianity.
Hitler regarded the Jews as an obstacle to Aryan chosenness and therefore they had to be liquidated because ” there cannot be two Chosen People; we are God`s choice.” Religious or not, christian or not, Hitler must have understood that something is great with Jews but he could not bear this Truth. This is the problem with many christians; they envy Jews.
Daria being Yehudi (Jew) and Christian I understand what you say but you forget that it is all Israel that is chosen meaning all the tribes not only Yehudah and some Levite. The house of Yehudah and the house of Israel will be reunited. All Yehudim and all Israelites will be One nation!!
Did the Wannsee conference include all these other peoples.
Con,
If it is nobody’s fault that Jesus died, then he should not have told Judas that it were better a millstone had been hung around his neck and he been drowned. In fact, Jesus should have turned himself in. The NT is clearly interested in making villains, not just Judas, but also the Jews.
Jim
Since you brought up Judas, who was Judas? Jewish, yes! Jesus’ student, a resounding emphatic Yes! Therefore, who bears the brunt of all those warnings, curses, etc. made by Jesus more fully in the gospels? is it those on the outside, or those students of his with privy knowledge of whom Mathew 13 10-17 speaks of? It’s the Christians who bear the brunt of responsibility. G-d told the Israelites in Devarim 29 that they had not been given a spirit to understand until that point. It says in the text of numbers 22:13 that G-d made all Israel wander until that generation that sinned with the calf had perished. This is after the transgressors themselves had already been severely punished. The truth of the matter is that G-d doesn’t hold people responsible forever, and not for what they didn’t commit.
We can say a lot about Jesus. He was anti Semitic, anti gentile, and anti Christian, all at once as the texts clearly show from most of his statements. So, the question is, How should we properly divide and understand what he’s saying?
So Con, is the following really a statement you can standby, or is it just something that flew off your keyboard. To quote you in the following.
“So, the question is, How should we properly divide and understand what he’s saying?”
In my humble opinion, after fifty years of prayer and study, the question is who, not we?
It is G-d and that G-d through revelation, as stated in the Tanahk or Talmud determines what he is says and means.
Please do not reply to me with quotes or thoughts by any other source, because I have probably already read or heard them, and dismissed them.
.