A Story and a Song
(This is the story of a woman who found the truth. Name withheld by request)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z998skmvL4Y
I think everything started with my conversion to an evangelical church from another evangelical church. Until the age of 15 I was member of a Reform Church, a sort of Lutheran church, but I never attended the church because I didn’t speak the language that was spoken in my father’s church. So, when I first entered a Baptist church, I was very impressed and I decided in that very moment that I want to serve and obey God. My mother was Orthodox (the eastern European branch of Christianity) who gave up believing in those nonsense saints and the virgin Mary. So, after I make my conversion to Baptist Church, I started to read the Bible, It was so normal for me to start with Genesis…nowadays people read almost only The New testament. In my mind was very clear that God is One and that Jews are the chosen people, but I knew absolutely nothing about Jews and Israel. After a while, after I started attending a Baptist high school, things started to change little by little in my mind…God is one, but is also three and that God gave up to Jews because they rejected Jesus.
Meanwhile my mother converted to J`s witnesses and she tried to convince me that God is One because 1 plus 1 plus 1 is always three, not one. This became a big dilemma for me. And I had only two perspectives: the Baptist explanation about trinity and J`s witnesses explanation, but neither one or the other could convinced me clearly. Sometimes I told to myself that God is a mystery, and the whole story…we are sinners, we can`t save ourselves, God came in Jesus to save us, Jews failed awfully to be the light for nations etc. etc. So, I was impressed by this way of God to solve the problem of sin…only through Jesus blood. I was taught that in the hope in a future messiah the sins of all Jews who lived before Jesus era were forgiven. You know the whole Christian story.
In 2003 something great happened…a group of Messianics came to our church…with tallit, kippa, shofar and it was a shock for me. I was shaken by a thought…maybe the Jews know the Scripture better. This group brought a new perspective upon the Scripture, especially upon the New Testament. Then I started to be interested in Jewish history and culture. Sometimes I had the courage to search a Jewish (traditional not Messianic) interpretation regarding the Bible, especially Genesis. I discovered great things, I told to my Bible study group, but they were very severe with this enthusiasm of mine. They told me that Jews have only the eggshell, they missed the essence by rejecting Jesus and I had such a deep regret about Jews and a deep pity.
In 2007 our first child was born and we wanted very much to give her a Hebrew name… we knew nothing about Hebrew, we knew only the meaning of the name. Than in 2010 our boy was born and of course he had to have a Hebrew name….
From 2012 things have precipitated. In that summer I discovered a Messianic song of an American who converted to “Messianic Judaism” (I know now it is a contradiction). I was mad about that song…”Shema Israel”. Someone commented on this song and said that a real Jewish singer is Avraham Fried. I search on youtube for Avraham Fried and that was a very very important point in my life, a milestone. Instantly I forgot about that messianic singer and I “converted” to hasidic music. Before, I never listened to Jewish music, except those well-known Jewish songs like “Hava nagila”. I started to search translations of Fried`s songs. Meanwhile, in those years I discovered Amos Oz who became my favorite writer. So, with Amos Oz in my mind and Abraham Fried in my soul, a thought came into my mind…what if I start to learn Hebrew……..to read Oz in original and to understand Jewish music? I knew that somebody long time ago told me he learn Hebrew at the Jewish community from our town. I went there, I knocked the door, I entered and indeed there was a Hebrew class. From next Sunday I became a student. Some friends told me when they found out that I am going to Jewish Community to learn Hebrew, that I have to be very, very careful because Jews don`t have grace and they saw a danger not to become a “legalistic” . I assured them that my teacher is not at all a religious person and she doesn`t allow religious discussions at all. (after a year I understood why…there was a Christian family (who keep the Law) who attended the class and their mission in life is to tell to Jews the gospel.
Avraham Fried has a song in Yiddish “Nisht gedaiget yiden” . That song is about waiting Moshiach. A question was raised in my mind…why Jews still wait for the Messiah…isn`t it very very obvious that Jesus is the Messiah? But my question was not an ironic one regarding Jews beliefs. It was a real question. But who could answer me why Jews are still waiting. Until then, I had a superior feeling that Jews miss something. I had a deep pity as I told in the previous e-mail about them, about Holocaust (I was convinced that Holocaust was the fulfillment of those words “his blood be upon us and our children” (when the Jews killed Jesus). Listening that song, I couldn`t have that feeling anymore. That song has a positive energy, a strength, a real hope.
In 2013 I heard about a Messianic group who comes to our city every second Friday. I went very excited. Oh, how much I liked those Hebrew songs, that “Jewish” atmosphere. I went there for a year. I have to say that from my teenage period when I “converted”, or became “born again”, I liked to question things, not just to accept them. But sometimes we have a great impression that we really question things, but how do we know that we get the answer, the right answer? My problem was that I didn`t have a real good objective source. I didn`t know that I have to check or how to check the answers, but this way of mine of question things, really helped me, thank God.
Now, back to my “Messianic” period. I was impressed, I was happy that maybe I found the truth. All my life I was searching about the TRUTH. I have been a very very good baptist believer, sometimes I was very sure that my doctrine is the best. I liked to argue on religious themes, I liked to defend the baptist doctrine, sometimes I liked to believe that Jesus really is God. But in my last 10 year my mind became allergic to the word trinity. In my last 2-3 year I couldn`t listen sermons about trinity, I closed my ears to that word, but I didn`t know how to explain, how to understand who is Jesus, who is Holy Spirit. Living in a Christian context is very very hard for someone to think in other way. It is almost something genetic this way of thinking. Besides, every Christian inherits lens through which he/she sees and understands things.
This “rabbi” guy seemed to me atypical, but I decided that I won`t judge persons anymore, but doctrine. But after a while I found strange some of the things he “preached”, but I said he is a messianic rabbi, he is a JEW, he knows better. I “forgave” his nonsense. I continued to attend that congregation because I was happy to hear that many many Jews around the world and especially from Israel turn to Jesus. I was still sorry about the “traditional” Jews because they reject their Messiah. This guy was saying this many times. But a thing began to bother me a lot…the “rabbi” was promoting a “healthy” ecumenism and this sounds not ok at all for me and I started to be very very careful about what he is teaching. He is a man with charisma and he really knows how to “entertain” people, how to sell his “products”.
When I couldn`t accept all his nonsense, it happened that my curiosity about traditional Judaism became bigger and bigger. But it took me a lot of courage to search articles on important themes like trinity, Torah, Shabbat. First I searched messianic sites and I started to read a lot, almost day and night. And my Christian beliefs started to shake, but I was not afraid because I now I had Yeshua who was a real Jew and the son of God.
Then the war began, the last summer war (2014) from Israel. My husband and I were very concerned about Israel, we mourned every Jewish soldier. We wanted to share this care, this love for Israel, but we realized that most of our friends find Israel as guilty and bad, not honest. We were so disappointed and sad that Christians are against Israel and rather pro Islam. We asked very seriously if we are on the right side, if we are not just blinded by this great love for Israel. So, I began to read history, to follow online debates on this theme and we wanted to meet people who share our position.
We heard about a man from other baptist church that he is very pro-Israel. We contacted this man and after a while we discovered that he is a pure monotheist, believing in the Only God, the God of Israel. I told him about my problem with trinity, with Sabbath and he told his story how God allowed a certain disease in his life and how he discovered in suffering the truth about God, about Torah. I was very encouraged to go on with my questions and I took the courage to approach the real Judaism. It was a matter of life and….nothing. All or nothing. I started with Jesus or Yeshua. I faced Paul and his teachings and I discovered that he changed a human into a God. I faced the problem of infallibility of New Testament. I faced 2000 years of Christianity. It was a hard fight. I had, I still have many many questions. After a while, I understood very very clearly that Jesus (if ever existed) was mere a man. But for several days I had a strange and painful feeling. It was like the 2000 years of Christianity were my life and now I have to give up. It is hard to describe those feelings. But after that I started to feel FREE, I began to see life in a different way. I realized that now I am only with Hashem, no mediator between us, just me and God and his Torah. This makes me more responsible for my life, for my beliefs. Before this, I was as well a very responsible Christian because all my life I wanted to serve and obey God.
But now, in May 2015 I am asking what I am going to do from now on. What Law should I keep? What I am going to teach my children. They know about Jesus, they love Jesus. I explained them that we have to pray only to God, not to Jesus. I never told them to pray to Jesus but in our friends circle, everyone is praying to Jesus, so they involuntarily prayed to Jesus. Now they pray only to God and without “in Jesus name”. I can`t tell them yet much about our new belief system, but we hope that Hashem will guide us how to teach them the truth of God.
So this is my story. It has many others details, but mainly this is my way of discovering the truth about God.
My prayer for now is to meet in my country other people who turn to the real God, the God of Israel.
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
Whoever you are, I am deeply moved by your courage and your inspiring story. May you find the support and encouragement you seek and continue to grow in your relationship with Hashem.
Thank you very much for your kind words, Dina. I found so much encouragment in your comments!
Friend,
Do not be discouraged. You are not alone.
May you be blessed,
Jim
Hello
It sounds like, from a very early age, that you have been blown and buffeted in all kinds of directions from all sorts of beliefs.
You mentioned that from a young age you were “converted” or “borne again”. If you can, if its not to painful, I would like to hear how that conversion was initiated?
Many thanks
First I was batised as a baby in a protestant church, then, at 15 I was invited to a baptist church. My knowledge about God was very poor, but I had a big hunger for God, I wanted to be pleasing to Him. Even I was a protestant, I never entered a protestant church and because I was living into a christian orthodox comunity, willy nilly I was exposded at least at orthodox rituals. In that baptist church I heard God`s message about His love for mankind and I just decided to follow God. I started to read Bible. In that period my mother joined J`s witnesses and I was exposed to those teachings. After several years I was exposed to SDA teachings. From my childhood I liked very very much to read and to descover new things about this world also about religion. I liked to know why and what other people belive about God and His ways.
There are many, like myself, who are unable to relate to your struggle since we haven’t experienced the difficulties you have. Your pursuit requires that a question be considered. There’s been a good many that have taken this road and the path they traveled led to the final result that they were in fact of Jewish ancestry. It is possible your passions are because of this result. The Jewish soul IS unique and has that longing you have experienced. I would suggest you pursue some genealogical research to see if this is the case. In any event you have taken a path that is surely pleasing to Hashem and I’m sure we wish you all the best in your future.
Last winter this thought crossed my mind indeed because I realised that something is strange with this passion for Israel, Jews and Judaism. I`ve made some research, I found that there is a story about my ancestors on my father`s line who could be jews, but it is almost impossible to prove. This story is lost somewhere in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the early 19th century.
Thank you very much for your encouragment . My highest desire is to honor Hashem and His perfect Law being or not a Jew.
Hello Daria
Thankyou for your response. I hear what you are saying, unfortunately your testimony from your younger days are very typical and common within christidom.
At what age would you say that your conversion into the Christian faith happened, was it the christening, or the meeting at the Baptist church, and if it was the baptist meeting what was the actual means that convinced you that Jesus was right for you?
On the otherhand, are you saying that you never actually made any decision, and you just got caught up in the flow of things because of family etc?
Hope that makes sense?
Thanks
Paul, why not listen to her testimony instead of asking questions going in the direction I fear you may be leaning, namely a dismissal? Every time a Christian faintly intimates “well, maybe you weren’t a real believer,” or looks for a “defect” in upbringing or exposure, it indicates that you don’t have a real desire to actually hear their journey. How many Christian groups do you need to interact with before your knowledge is a true G-dly knowledge, a good relationship? I have in my life spoken with and studied with Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Baptists, Lutherans, evangelical, and non denominational Christians of various sorts. On top of that I have a degree from university in both history and comparative religion. In comparative religion, my personal emphasis was second temple Judaism, and Christian origins. How much study, how much prayer, how much knowledge is enough to be “a true believer”? How spirit filled can one possibly be to be a child of G-d?
Now, I personally have no problem with Jesus as a 2nd temple teacher. His halacha is at home in 2nd temple era discussions. The issue is this business of Christians demanding that the world recognize Jesus as G-d.
Deuteronomy 4 in plain meaning says Israel saw no form, but only heard a voice. Sinai is the measure for Israel “In all your generations.” Its really not that hard to grasp. Its not OK for Jews to worship a form as G-d made manifest. We find nobody worshiping the burning bush (a theophany,) Nobody prays to angels of the lord, etc. Only G-d the father is meant to be served.
Hello cr
Im sure Daria can speak for one self. What my direction or questions are, are just that, mine, not yours.
Thankyou
Paul, unfortunately I can`t express my spritual journey very well in English. Maybe is not very clear my answer because of this. I will try to make myself more clear.
First, I said I was expose to several belief systems (orthodox, J`s, SDA, Baptist). I tried to understand each of this, but I kept my evangelical direction. This seemed the most logical to me because I`ve met well respected theologians whith whom I studied the Bible. In a christian context I learned to think by an evangelical paradigm. Everyone lives in a certain religious system and learns nolens volens to think into a certain paradigm. And in this evangelical system I`ve heard many many times that jews failed their mission and God gave this mission to the gentiles. I`ve heard that without Jesus my good deeds are a disgust in the eyes of God. In time I`ve learnd to see Jesus from genesis to revelation and I was fascinated. It is not fair at all that christians didn`t learn openly and without misconceptions what Jews believe. Many christians like to use the expresion “the christian-judeo faith”, but they know NOTHING about judaism. So, my journey to Truth had to be unfortunately only on a christian ground. As I said in my story, from my childhood I had a great hunger for knowledge and then for Truth about God.I
My family didn`t influenced me at all in my beliefs. I didn`t chose to believe in the way my parents believed at all. My mother was first orthodox but despite her lack of education, she couldn`t belive in saints and the whole ritual system. She never took me into an orthodox church. When she converted to J`s witnesses she never imposed to me to go with her at their meetings. We had only debates on trinity.
I considered I became a christian when I decided to follow God at 15 years. It was a decisions took in a moment and it was my decision to love and serve God, but in that moment my decision wasn`t about Jesus. Then I heard in sermons that I need Jesus and I accepeted Jesus as my Savior. Then after a while I understood that a real conversion must imply a very very deep feeling of sinnfulness and then I have to ask God to forgive me and to wash me in Jesus blood, etc. I felt guilty because when I decided to follow God, I didn`t have that feeling and I started to create that sinnfulness feeling. I knew I was a sinner but I didn`t know that God can`t accept me if I am not feel very very bad and hopeless sinner.
I really hope I make myself clear. If not, please ask!
Daria
Dear Daria, are you Roumanian? Do you speak French?
You story that I have read touch me when you said:” I started with Jesus or Yeshua. I faced Paul and his teachings and I discovered that he changed a human into a God. I faced the problem of infallibility of New Testament. I faced 2000 years of Christianity. It was a hard fight. I had, I still have many many questions. After a while, I understood very very clearly that Jesus (if ever existed) was mere a man. But for several days I had a strange and painful feeling. It was like the 2000 years of Christianity were my life and now I have to give up. It is hard to describe those feelings.”
Confusion was instilled in your heart and your lost the innocence of a child. You were drown by those who think they know HaShem not even able to pronounce the Holy Name. You had been warn by Yahushuo the Messiah of Israel the DABAR Elohim in the flesh to be careful of the yeast of the pharisees. The seed of faith in heart that was growing step by step was aborted in you that is why you felt many cries and sadness in your heart.
An another difficulty in your life was your exposition to pseudo-christians not bearing the Apostolic grace of the beginning having been corrupted by the works of shadow hands wanting to destroy the Holy Church. Without the Ark of Noah no one had been saved by the Flood. Now with Fire coming no one will be saved without the Protection of the Ark the ruah holy for she is the living Ark protecting the holy Torah.
Yahshuo said those who denies me in front of men I will deny them in front of my Father YHWH Eternal for it is written:
Psalm 110 of David:
YHWH said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
YHWH shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
YHWH has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
YHWH is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.”
It is said: ”till I make your enemies your footstool” link with also this warning in Apocalypse chap.3 to the Faithful Church:
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Daria read carefully it has been predicted by Yohan(John) in a prophetic warning:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.”
To go backwards is not a progress but a path to destruction. Yahushuo has proven his claims those who reject him construct their system of belief to fit their man made conception of the Elohim by boxing the Elohim in their carnal minds having not tasted the Power of the Resurrection and having abandon the real Judaism of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov. David also says in Psalm 45 that no one here dare to explain :
”10
Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
11
So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
…
16
Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
17
I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.”
Shalom dear Daria may the Lord forgives you and may He shines His face upon you that you may see and know truly that the Dabar Elohim was sent by the Almighty YHWH to save us for He bears His Name: YAHUSHUO … YHWH SAVES!!
Love you!
Why would ANYONE want to follow another version of the religion which is of their own making. You try to give it authenticity by throwing in a few Hebrew words, that aren’t transliterated properly, and expect those unfamiliar with the language to assume you have knowledge they don’t possess. A few Hebrew words scattered here and there doesn’t make it any more authentic but, rather, diminishes itself.
As has been mentioned many times in the past you have also made the attempt to denigrate the “Pharisees”. Yet according to G-d Himself those who are faithful to Torah would be the ones who would persevere throughout the ages. Those who have survived these thousands of years are those same Pharisees of that time. It is ONLY they who have survived. The Jews that were Xtian at that time had disappeared in a very short time. If your religion were OF G-d there would have remained a Jewish presence in the religion. But far from it, the religion became wholly Gentile in very short order, Proving it is NOT from G-d.
Your reference to Tehillim 110 is quite interesting. There was a Xtian once who confronted me with that passage. He assumed the result would be the same as the Xtian text. According to the Xtian text Jsus says, “The lord said to my lord”. Anyone with even the knowledge of Hebrew characters would realize the text doesn’t say that. Then for the text to say no one asked him any more questions can easily be assumed that those who heard those words realized this man is devoid of ANY knowledge and found it fruitless to speak to him anymore. When I said THIS to the Xtian he, himself, had no more to say, thus confirming my point.
Instead of listening to You, I would suggest Daria go to Rabbi Singer’s site and listen to his shiurim on the many subject of Xtianity and the Jewish perspective. He’s very accessible to those Xtians who are conflicted in their beliefs.
https://outreachjudaism.org/
Sharbano, you might fool goyim with saying you do not know Hebrew the translation is deficient (and it is true that many times the English does not render the full meaning of the Hebrew), but here I do know how to translate and for the benefit of all I will do. Easier for me when I speak, understand and read many tongues (French, English, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Lebanese-dialect, Greek Hebrew…) all gifts to be deployed for the glory of Hashem for He gave it for a purpose…
The hebrew text Tehilim(Psalm) 110 verse 1 says:
לְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר נְאֻם יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִימִינִי עַד־אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶיךָ׃
“David’s psalm Declaration of YHWH to my Lord sit at my right forever I place your enemies a footstool to your feet …”
My translation and you can check renders more powerfully the destiny of those who opposes this Adoni… Be careful I for my part do not want to be a footstool when in the word in Hebrew הֲדֹם there is the root of blood and this can be understood in a militarily way also, for in Hebrew many facets of each utterance can have multiple level of lights of understanding as like a diamond we look at…
Just those dabarim (words) should struck you down Sharbano. For it contradicts your false theology and how you have distorted Torah. Yahushuo is the Adoni (my Lord) and you are his enemies to be forever a footstool to his feet.
נְאֻם Declaration the word confers an official statement that breaks your false conception that YHWH does not share His Glory…
O yes you are right He does not share it to those who insult Him and his Dabar but He gives His Glory to all those who obey Him and are His children…
Ameen!!
Shalom!
“An another difficulty in your life was your exposition to pseudo-christians not bearing the Apostolic grace of the beginning having been corrupted by the works of shadow hands wanting to destroy the Holy Church.”
One question: who exactly are the christians bearing the Apostolic grace of the begining? What is the Apostolic grace? (the catholic grace? no, thank you)
Holy church? What exactley is the holy church? It is an organization? Or it is an invizible group scattered through all nations?
Apparently you weren’t paying attention. Just about every Xtian version of Matt 22:44 translates the Psalm AS “The lord said to my lord”. Therefore, if Jsus says “the lord says to my lord” clearly he didn’t understand the Jewish text. Of course this isn’t the only place where his knowledge is questionable, especially places where he says, “You have heard it said”.
As far as your Hebrew translation; I have found it rather peculiar that your chosen words are exactly the same as Strong’s version. Now, here in this case It is also interesting that YOUR translation is EXACTLY like the “Holman Christian Standard Bible”, word for word.
Given the fact that you cannot be straightforward with direct answers to direct questions a person cannot help but be suspicious. As I’ve said before, I have heard many a Rabbi who have come from many different languages and one in particular, a Russian Rabbi who still is learning English and none of them have an issue in putting the Hebrew texts into English. In the final analysis we can clearly see that you cloak your words in such a way to support a religion that YOU yourself have created. If this isn’t the case then give us a site that agrees wholeheartedly with your presumptions. If not then we can assume this is just another example of the Applewhite Theorem.
Sharbano now I see that you are Liar and a Deceiver until I read your lies I did not knew the Holman translation I went to check and it said:
Psalm 110 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Psalm 110
The Priestly King
A Davidic psalm.
1 This is the declaration of the Lord
to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
My own translation is from the Hebrew Holy Text:
The hebrew text Tehilim(Psalm) 110 verse 1 says:
לְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר נְאֻם יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִימִינִי עַד־אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶיךָ׃
“David’s psalm Declaration of YHWH to my Lord sit at my right forever I place your enemies a footstool to your feet …”
Why do you lie Sharbano? My arguments are too strong for you that you are in denial attacking the messenger because you can not stand the truth. You are a sect of Judaism not the real Judaism of Abraham Isaac and Yaakov or even king David and certainly not of Eliyahu hanavi. You are a parody of truth denigrating the Truth the Dabar Elohim…
You shall not lie…or be a false witness the punishment to disobey the commandment are severe. Obviously you do not serve YHWH EL-Elyon you do not even know the Holy Name and you call yourself a Yehudi. I’m a Yehudi you are usurping our glorious tribe name…
Unfortunately you have invited this suspicion and speculation. Because of your inconsistencies, vague and ambiguous answers a person has to determine what origin it is that you speak of. I’m not the first to ask where else is all that you espouse. So far there is only your own perceptions of truth and nowhere else. You apparently claim to be a prophet and then say you cannot divulge revelations to anyone else and then you expect NO ONE to be suspicious. There are just to many convenient responses that you use to deflect from finding what truth you supposedly possess. I can assure you if a Rabbi came and espoused the same thinking as you I would most certainly question him in the same manner. What appears to be certain is that you cannot withstand scrutiny in what you say. If it were simply a matter of minor differences there would be discussions without suspicion. But what YOU are espousing aren’t minor differences but a complete and utter transformation of G-d, Torah, and all that is Judaism. Surely you cannot expect the people here to accept a complete transformation when the P’shat in Torah disagrees. If you want to be taken seriously you will need to be much more forthwith in answers and details. You may question MY questioning of your Hebrew expertise but you should admit that your use of Hebrew has evolved from the beginning. In this matter too you have been elusive and evasive.
You think you have brought strong arguments and if that were the case then all would not be in agreement that they are vague and incongruent. For example, your concept of the “order of Eliyahu”. Is this of your own making or have you found it elsewhere. Your constant reference to the “Dabar Elokim” is simply a vague and disguised reference to your messiah Jsus. For some reason you find it an anathema to use his name. This is common in your methodology of discussion. This is another aspect that breeds suspicion. We understand the Hebrew roots movement and how THEY employ this methodology. It’s for a purpose, that is, to cloud the inherent truth of purpose. Therefore we have to wonder if that isn’t the case here. It is up to you to eliminate these doubts and then there would be no need for speculations and suspicions.
Sharbano You lied! I provided a small example the Holmann translation that do not correspond to my translation. You said: ”YOUR translation is EXACTLY like the “Holman Christian Standard Bible”, word for word.”
You are NOT a believer of Torah for you disobey the commandment You shall not lie or bear false witness… But for you it is OK to lie to defend your sect who is NOT Judaism.
Holmann translation said: “1This is the declaration of the Lord to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool.” (HCSB psalm 110)
Eliyah Lion (my own translation) says: “David’s psalm Declaration of YHWH to my Lord sit at my right forever I place your enemies a footstool to your feet …”
Now where is the “word for word” translation between mine and Holmann??
This is the proof that you are deceiver and a liar and not trustworthy if all in your sect are like you no wonder why the holy people is still in the dark… You are a worker of the satan and the glorious Yohan in Revelation warned us about you:
“9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the land. “(Apocalypse chap.3)
You can call names all you want and quote your “Apocalypse” ( sounds like a bad movie) but your translation is phrased the same as that version. Do you think no one else does the same, but with Hebrew, editing somewhat, in order to give a distinct impression.
What I DO SEE is you ignore everything else, especially how your own vagueness and ambiguity is fostering these questions. Apparently you ignore what is written. I suggest you re-read my comment in its entirety and maybe you will be able to understand my point. I’ll give another opinion. I believe you are using these many tactics to obfuscate a true intention. The issue is confronting questions. There were the questions regarding Stephen, being a prophet etc. You have resorted to attacks on everyone here when questions are persistently asked. Everyone here has attempted to “decipher” what you write AND, as a result to have resorted ad hominem responses. I have encountered similar situations with Xtians and many times its a precept to engender a sense of persecution on their part. Apparently there are those who believe this is proof of their righteousness and authenticity. In other words, they suffer for their faith, ergo, their faith Must be true. You have come here with a “belief” and explicitly said, that only you bear the truth of Hashem. Do you really expect anyone to take that under consideration. Are you the only harbinger of truth and ALL Chazal have no merit, ALL those from the time of Moshe to this day lack Emunah. You continually speak of Ruach. This Ruach was given to Moshe along WITH the elders it is from those men that the Tradition was handed down, down to this very generation. Yet NONE of these speak the words you do. So, shall we listen to you, OR, the clarity of those who were entrusted with Torah and has kept it to this day.
Nice try Sharbano but your credibility is going downhill. When you lie so blatantly you should I least when confronted ask forgiveness and amend yourself. Lying is not a mince thing. If you were are true lover of Torah you would not even dare to lie. For lying comes from weak insecure persons or persons having rebelled against the Eternal One, having forgone the truth for their idol mind.
You say and many that the Elohim does not share his glory. And still a counter your misunderstanding by Scriptural proof to the contrary, Psalm 110 being a marvellous testimony :
“David’s psalm Declaration of YHWH to my Lord sit at my right forever I place your enemies a footstool to your feet …”
If you are honest and not scared by the truth tell us why YHWH declares to the Lord of David sit at my right which is a very very an important position?
Why in psalm 45 a woman will be remembered forever?
”I will make your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise you forever and ever.” (NKJV)
The exclusiveness of the Elohim Glory is not shared with demon-idols or anyone outside the Faith. For which Father does not rejoice in the glory of his sons and daughters: Mosheh himself had his face full of the glory from his encounter with the Lord…
Let us work to conciliate both Houses that the glory of Yerushala’im might arise and shine. For it is written in Isaiah:
1 Arise, shine! For he has come your light and glory YHWH over you has risen. 2 For behold the darkness shall cover a land and a heavy cloud peoples. And over you will rise YHWH and his glory over you will be seen. 3 And will come nations to your light and kings to your dawning splendor. 4 Lift up all around your eyes and see: all will gather, they have come to you. Your sons from afar shall come and your daughters over a side will confirm. 5 Then you will see and illuminated and awed and enlarged will be your heart. For he will turn over you a multitude of a sea, an army, nations will come to you.
…
(Isaiah, chap. 60, personal translation from the Hebrew)
Shalom!!
It’s clear your only recourse is attacking an opponent. Still, once again, you want to divert the subject and use a different approach. You have lost track of who has said what. It had been CR who responded to you and repeated here in This thread.
Furthermore your reading of Tehillim makes no sense. You do realize it says TO David. You say Hashem declares to the “lord of David”. Then who is this supposed lord of David. David was king and master of the kingdom. This is just another case where your reasoning doesn’t match with the written word. Yet you smugly assert you are right and everyone else simply HAS to be wrong. I say again, You STILL want to divert from the previous questions asked because they destroy Xtianity. Since you couldn’t reconcile the 70 you have embarked on this same strategy. Well, I will not be deterred.
Hello Daria
Thankyou very much for your detailed response. It is very intresting to hear about your life so far.
I appreciate english might not be your primary tongue, but your grammar is fine. I hear and understand your text.
Im very sad to hear that you feel,felt guilty of your sin,sins. I am intrested in your last paragraph.
You mentioned that after you decided to follow God, you then took the decision to follow Jesus. At some point after that, you thought about feeling sinful. You say your thoughts must be sinfulness because of having a understanding of God, which in turn creates a conviction, then you need God to forgive you through the blood of Christ to forgive?
Have I got that right? Sorry if not, I dont intend to confuse things here.
Thankyou
Paul, it is hard now to try to “reconstruct” exactly how things happened in my mind over 20 years ago. It was a huge mental effort for me to write my story ( writing in English means double effort). My main idea was that after my turning to God my life changed. I understood that I have to live a holy life. I knew I was a sinner, I knew I need God`s forgivness, but I was told my sins can`t be forgiven but only through Jesus who in fact is God incarnated. What exactly I meant was the idea that I was told that a real conversion to God must star with a very very deep awareness of my very sinfull condition. And my need for God didn`t start with this and I thought that my conversion was not authentic.
What I write here about my spritual journey are maybe some spots, some small parts from my long way of searching God. And meanwhile I found out from the Scripture that I`ve read and studied over 20 years, that God just can and want to forgive me simple as that, through repentence and other ways.
Following.
Hello Daria
Yes I appreciate your time and effort.
I see now and understand a little more of your experiences etc.
I think the best thing I can do is to say what I want to say, piece by piece.
Firstly you are of course correct in stating that you are a sinner. The bible clearly teaches that ALl have fallen short of Gods Holy standard. We all need God to forgive us. That then leads onto the point that absolutely no can live a complete holy life. There will be of course a divide between believers in Christ and non believers, on how one obtains forgiveness. One connecting agreement (i think?) between the two camps is faith, and grace.
Not sure if this in line with your views?
Everyone sorry for the double post, but I wanted Daria to see that I answered lion’s objection/challenge on psalm 45.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/jewish/Chapter-45.htm#showrashi=true
NICE TRY LION, FAIL!
Psalm 45:8 You loved righteousness and you hated wickedness; therefore JUDGE, your Judge, anointed you with oil of joy from AMONG YOUR PEERS. Judges is an equally valid translation of elohim.
READ ISAIAH 49 AND THE COMMENTARY OF RASHI on THIS Psalm OH LION THE CLEVER ONE. 😉
Just Because the verses say Elohim and “praise” doesn’t mean G-d is sharing divine glory/service or that the term Elohim refers exclusively to Hashem, as even your Jesus admitted in
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”‘? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE (cf. Mathew 23:1-3 Mathew 5:17-18) –36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? cf. Hosea 11:1 (I ALL srael is G-d’s son.) Also, Jesus saying I and the father are one doesn’t mean Jesus is claiming to be G-d’s equal, see John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
Jesus wants his students to be one as he and the father are one. Can you tell me with a straight face that Jesus was saying that we are all G-d and fit for worship? ITS A METAPHOR BROTHER!
I’m surprised (as a hebrew speaker, you don’t know how many usages of Elohim and the word praise?
Lion,
You wrote to Daria: “To go backwards is not a progress but a path to destruction.”
When one loses his way, he can press on, going farther or farther from the proper path, or he can humbly recognize that he is in error and go back to the point where he left the path and begin again. Going backwards is, in fact, quite often the first step in going forward. He who is too proud to go back, who insists that he knows the way forward though lost he be, only carries himself further from his destination.
Jim
Yes Jim you are right if the path was a wrong path but if it was a right one going backwards means destruction. In case of Daria having been surrounded by pseud-christian where the Torah is not observed where the Liturgy is deficient or nil where the Theology is incomplete … her path might have been an illusion.
I will not judge for the ways of Hashem are incomprehensible but I will warn her though that to the deny the DaBar Elohim is to deny Who sent Him… And that is major stuff not to be taken lightly.
All of you converts to Judaism have been seduce to a form of Judaism that is Not of the real Judaism in the time of our forefathers. This notion that the EL is Alone with Himself and does not share His glory with his children is contra-Tanakh. With the few examples that I have provided this should at least, to the honest mind, provoke some study and prayers for the outcome of a wrong path is grave of consequences.
Shalom!
See what I wrote to Paul Summers Lion. Just because someone disagrees with your view, does not make them, or their exposure to your religion deficient. Your responses on this blog “in the name of love” are always knee Jerk and insulting, calling people liars and judging their motives. Grow up sir. Just grow up. Rabbinic Judaism is not a real form of Judaism? WHO ELSE OBSERVES TORAH? Christians do not observe the commandments of the Torah, and neither do you.
Again NOWHERE does G-d share WORSHIP or prayer or service with other beings. NOWHERE! By your fruit we know you indeed lion.
Mr Elyiah Lion, please explain me how exactly is this form of Judaism you promote? I understand from what you say that all Jews in the last 2000 years were totally wrong in their relationship with God (except those who believe in Yeshua) and nowadays Jews can find the Truth only from a small group who holds the real Truth. (and you belong to this group)
It seems to me that you pretend you’re the depository of the truth and all others are hopelessly lost without your promoted truth that is hard to be understood.
No offence, but this is my impression, but of course I might be confused and I don`t have the capacity to understand this esoteric stuff.
For my mind it is hard to digest your perspective on God and His truth.
Daria
p.s Please don`t forget about the other question I asked last tome about Holy Church.
Dear Daria you asked me a question sorry for the delay being occupied on all front and during Shabat I was resting.
You asked: ”One question: who exactly are the christians bearing the Apostolic grace of the begining? What is the Apostolic grace? (the catholic grace? no, thank you)
Holy church? What exactley is the holy church? It is an organization? Or it is an invizible group scattered through all nations?”
Firs your one question are many questions that I will respond like this:
1) The Christians-Messihim bearing the Apostolic grace of the beginning are all men and women having received the seed of Faith growing in the Ruah holy to the full deployment of the Messianic Body to be glorified in the holy Yerushala’im.
2) The grace is the life Elohim transforming us according to Their likeness.
3) Holy church=Holy knesset=Holy Messianic Body those called to reign with the glorious King in the heavens and on earth
4) She is more a body than an organization: mysterious-secret-but also apparent, part invisible-part visible, powerful-but low profile, moving mountains-but mild as water, beautiful-although hidden, part divine-but also in humanly form…
Shalom
Daria, if you don’t understand what Eliyah Lion wrote, don’t worry. He is usually incoherent. I don’t say this to be unkind to him, and I’m sorry it appears that way. I’m saying this so you’ll know that if you don’t follow what he is saying, it’s not because you don’t speak English as your first language.
Hi Audience,
Just have to point out one thing. Lion wrote:
“This notion that the EL is Alone with Himself and does not share His glory with his children is contra-Tanakh.”
Compare this statement to Isaiah 42:8:
“I am the Lord; that is My Name; I SHALL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER, nor my praise to graven idols.”
Lion says our notion that Jesus does not share God’s glory and thus is not worthy of being worshiped as God is contra-Tanach, but it seems it his notions that are contra.
אֲנִי יְהוָה הוּא שְׁמִי וּכְבוֹדִי לְאַחֵר לֹא־אֶתֵּן וּתְהִלָּתִי לַפְּסִילִים
Isaiah 42 v.8 Could be translate (here I will give it literally):
I YHWH He my Name and my Glory to other not will I give praise-splendor to idols
To other is in reference to idols. Not to his children. For that would contradict Psalm 45, Psalm 110, Isaiah 60 and many other passages of Scriptures.
Your theology is flaw and incoherent. Our FATHER-YHWH is Loving to his children and terrible to the rebels. The demon-idols and their followers will be destroy by the Hand of Eloah. Your theology is making EL-Elyon as a Narcissistic Dictator who look more like Heylel-the satan who lost his place in the heavens and like Isaiah warned us will try on earth to replicate what he tried in the heavens:to sit on in place of EL-Elyon
For Isaiah the prophet said:
“12 “O how you fell out of heavens
Heylel=הֵילֵל son of dawn,
Have been hewed down toward the earth
You who predominates over nations;
13 And you said in your heart
‘The heavens I will ascend out of a vortex toward dual stars of EL,
I will exalt my throne and sit in a mountain of assembly
In dual extremities of the north
14 I will ascend on dual high places of thick cloud
I will be similar to Elyon.’
15 Only unto Sheol you will be brought down
To dual extremities of the pit.” (Isaiah, chap.14)
Serve Elohei Abraham Isaac and Yaakov, YHWH EL-Elyon not his creatures like Heylel who wants to deform the reality of the Sacred Hebrew Scriptures knowing that you do not know the meaning of the Hebrew. He warned us about the Synagogue of the satan in Apocalypse 3. Be careful not to serve false gods and messiah like your Rebbe those are wolves in sheep clothing.
You have been warned!!
My oh my, your pomposity knows no bounds. We don’t take warnings from false prophets.
Your translation literally makes NO SENSE. With what you are trying to say the glory is a grammatical nightmare. It is incomplete the way you separate it. If it were as you WANT it to read it would have to say “GIVE” glory and not just hang there. Really, this sounds asinine. If that is unsatisfactory then there is this and to whom is it speaking.
“For My sake, For My sake, I will do it, for how can I let [My Name] be profaned. I will not cede My glory to another.”
Surely this REAL prophet is speaking directly to you.
What does the king of Babylon have to do with ANY of this. Nebuchadnetzar had nothing to do with the scriptures. You DO realize that S’tan means adversary, not Heylel. Does your Heylel have horns, a pitchfork and dressed in red. Apparently your “bible” doesn’t include the words, “You will recite this PARABLE about the KING OF BABYLON”. Do you Really want to follow the religion of Zoroaster. They believed in a conflict of heavenly powers and the early church were surely sympathetic to this idea. In fact a great many pagan religions believed in this heavenly battle. Where do you think the word Sun(Set) comes from.
“synagogue of satan”, Now that is funny. At least you’ve learned humor.
“I will not judge for the ways of Hashem are incomprehensible but I will warn her though that to the deny the DaBar Elohim is to deny Who sent Him… And that is major stuff not to be taken lightly.”
Considering you are a self-described prophet I guess that gives the authority to warn a person. N’est-ce pas?
Excerpt from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Angels_and_judges
“James Strong, for example, listed “angels” and “judges” as possible meanings for Elohim with a plural verb in his Strong’s Concordance, and the same is true of many other 17th-20th century reference works. Both Gesenius’ Hebrew Lexicon and the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon list both angels and judges as possible alternative meanings of elohim with plural verbs and adjectives.”
Mainstream Christian concordances agree that judges and angels are occasionally contextually appropriate translations of Elohim. Moses is called “Elohim before Pharaoh ,” and obviously nobody worships Moses, because that would be idolatry. The same is true with the worship of Jesus or ANY OTHER RABBI.
Zion’s Salvation and New Name
“And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of YHWH shall name.” (Isaiah 62)
Another example of YHWH sharing his glory.
Open your eyes and let go of the spell of darkness that is upon you…The false rabbis are Baal worshipers lying to whom they worship… They can not even pronounce the Holy Name having being decreed by the Heavens for them not to pronounce His name. They are banned from the Holy Assembly cast out as rebels for having deformed the truth.
See the combat of Eliyahu against the priest of Baal. See How Eliyahu invoke the Name and ridicule those worshiping Baal=Lord. To know if you belong to the Elohim the real One you must be able by the Dabar and in the Ruah holy to pronounce the Holy Name YHWH the Father Eternal. For which child does not know the name of his father. That is a sign that you have the Ruah holy in and with you.
Is this another instance of Xtianese. It appears you are playing semantic games here. The Isaiah quote speaks ONLY of seeing His glory. There is no mention of giving or ceding His glory.
Show us anywhere in Torah that in order to belong to Hashem that “you must be able by the Dabar and in the Ruah holy to pronounce the Holy Name”. Israel is the eternal firstborn son notwithstanding anything YOU say of the matter.
Tell us O Great One, what was significant about the situation with Eliyahu and the priest of Baal. There is ONE very important detail you have not mentioned and enlightens the entire story. Let us see if you know this.
Eliyahu
For some reason you remind me of these people –
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/an-open-response-to-dalton-lifsey/#comment-1661
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/the-school-of-matthew/#comment-7274
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/isaiah-222/#comment-310
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/fifth-response-to-dalton-lifsey-isaiah-956-67/#comment-1936
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/christianity-unmasked/#comment-12712
Reblogged this on 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources.
Dangerous Precedents: What the New Testament itself can teach us about the proper definition of idol worship.
Traditional Christianity teaches that Jesus of Nazareth is G-d the son, the second person of the trinity, who incarnated for man’s salvation from sin, who now sits on G-d’s right hand, waiting to come again.
What message concerning idol worship did Jesus leave behind when he left? In Mathew 24:4-13 and Mark 13, Jesus warns his followers of many false messiahs to come who will claim to be sons of G-d just like him, who will claim prophecy, who will do lying miracles, and who will seek worship for themselves etc. (THIS MEANS THESE THINGS BY THEMSELVES DO NOT MAKE SOMETHING TRUE OR FROM G-D.)
Jesus says, “don’t be fooled, only he who endures to the end will be saved.”
Revelation chapter 13 (according to several traditional Christian interpreters like St. Methodius of Olympus 250 – 311 and St Ephrem 300-373 to name only two) gives us the clearest picture of a false messiah that will come.
One very clear characteristic of this false messiah character according to these Christian interpreters is that he will claim he is G-d, and will force all nations of the world to worship him.
How do we tell what is true according to the New testament to avoid false messiahs?
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
James 1:25But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it–not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it–they will be blessed in what they do.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
He who avoids the sins of the seven congregations listed in revelation is also thought to be in a good state.
What are some of the sins of some of the seven congregations?
Pergamos is one of the best to look at.
1. They tolerated the nicolatians (an antinomian gnostic sect) that practiced sexual immorality, hedonism, idolatry, and “rushed for profit into the error of Balaam.” What was Balaam’s error? He enticed Israelites with sexual immorality, unclean food, and with deities that their fathers did not know.
Thyatira is the second Church to look at
2. They too tolerated idolatry and immorality.
The Church at Sardis had
3. dead works, (IE they were Christian in title only, but not in deeds.)
The key point here is, avoid those sinful things, and blessing will come to you if you act in conformity with godly living and actions. (Acts 15)
These passages in the Christian Bible teach us in a painfully clear way why it is that Jews do not (and cannot) believe in a divine messiah who is prayed to and worshiped.
Its a matter of established precedents. According to Jesus himself, he came to teach commandments, and not to recieve undue adoration as a king, which he himself avoided. (John 6:15)
According to Jesus, he does not want adoration, songs, or words of flattery, but godly action in conformity with the commandments. (revelation 3:16 Mathew 7:22-23)
The New Testament tells us that viewing someone as divine is a very slippery very dangerous slope. The gentiles tried to worship Paul and Barnabas, and were rebuked. (Acts 14:12)
Paul taught not to worship the heavenly host (Collosians 2:18)
The false messiah claims that he is divine and seeks worship. (revelation 13)
The only ground for truth value is the commands of G-d. Christian brothers and sisters. If you have a Jewish friend who is a religious Jew, let him remain in his tradition where G-d has put him. If you tell him that worship of Jesus and not observing commandments is what matters most, you do him, and yourself a great disservice.
Even if Jesus were divine, he made it crystal clear he doesn’t want prayers, or songs, because that would make him an idol for you to treat in a lukewarm way. He taught that he wasn’t your focus. G-d alone is the focus.
Con, I often disagree with you, but this is good.
I hope when we disagree that my comments nonetheless at least provide some food for thought.
>>>>>>”Christian brothers and sisters…”>>>>
Are you a Christian again CR?
No Fred I’m not, but that doesn’t mean I have issues with Jesus or Christians. We have to remember that Christians have a systematic theology concerning Jesus, and that this theology often drowns out his plainest easy to understand teachings, which were to follow G-d, and to follow in his example.
As I showed above, simply believing someone or something to be divine is not a guaranteed safe zone, even according to the NT text itself. If the New Testament says it was sinful to call Paul and Barnabas deities, if it teaches that the false messiah calls itself G-d and wants nothing more than adoration, then it should be obvious that the mere theological opinion that someone is divine (including Jesus) is not a sufficient barometer to rest on, nor even a wise one.
Many arguments that I see between Jews and Christians could be avoided if the ethics and not the theological constructs were at the forefront of people’s minds. Yes, the NT teaches that Jesus is the word of G-d manifested, but what are those words that he spoke? Christians love to call Jesus the word, but not to hear his words, or to look into them.
From the ethical standpoint as opposed to a theological one, there really isn’t much to argue about between Jews and Christians.
Concerned Reader,
I could be wrong, but I don’t recall that I got an answer from you on this foundational question.
Jesus was asked twice which Commandment is the greatest or most important one, (Matthew 22 and Mark 12)
Both times Jesus answered quoting the same two commandments, from the Law of Moses.
Jesus said that one of these two commandments is the first and greatest most important one. Which one is it? The one in Deuteronomy 6, or the one in Leviticus 19 ?
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “ is this: ‘Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ [Mark 12:29-30, Deuteronomy 6:4-5]
Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.” [Matthew 22:37-38, Deuteronomy 6:5]
“He taught God alone is the focus”
Yet
John14:6 No one comes to the father except through me.
I can see the confusion.
I think John 14:6 was the forerunner of “Jesus said it I believe it that settles it” no focus here folks move along, move along.
“Larry, it really depends on how that passage is interpreted. Jesus says just priror to saying this that he is the WAY and the TRUTH. You don’t need to confess Jesus the person to be following his WAY, or to be impacted by his TRUTH”
by the time john’s gospel was written, john the baptist right from the begging declared
“the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world”
words like this cannot be found in the synoptics.
by the time john is written
people recognise “saviour” immediately unlike in synoptics.
all this quick and immediate recognition tells the readers of this gospel that the man god is definitely some kind of special go between.
christians better be doing the correct christological rituals
“you must eat my flesh and drink my blood or you have NO life within you”
cr is making things up.
Larry, it really depends on how that passage is interpreted. Jesus says just priror to saying this that he is the WAY and the TRUTH. You don’t need to confess Jesus the person to be following his WAY, or to be impacted by his TRUTH, cf. Mathew 7:22 which shows that many who consider themselves Christians will not be considered such, while John 10:16 shows that there are other “sheep.” Add to this Mathew 25:34-40 and it makes abundantly clear that the righteous do not know whom it is who truly follows Jesus, the implication being, only the true righteous people, righteousness being defined by conduct, not belief. cf. Luke 6:46
CR
It is clear that Jesus puts himself directly in front of god. He stands in the path, You cannot go around him.
LarryB
Amen to that ! You are right.
MP
I am right and you are wrong all at the same time. Jesus a man is god, seriously?
You need to stick with the one on one at your church where you can shout people down, like you tried with Dina, but are exposed in the open where you talk at people instead of talking with people.
LarryB
Why not quote me specifically and prove me wrong using your Torah?
I can take constructive criticism. I’ve been wrong before, and if so I admit it.
Regarding Genesis 22, Pharisee Friend & Dina’s point regarding the verb being about “seeing” not “providing” was well taken, I accepted their correction, and we worked with it from there.
I answered Dina’s question about Jesus being a lamb. Will you answer if Isaac was Abraham’s only Son, like God said in Genesis 22?
MP
if you wont talk with Dina, you won’t talk with me.
Answer her challenges, first. No BS, do the work.
LarryB
I already did it.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/the-blood-of-the-lamb/#comment-27757
Larry, Matthew is being ridiculous. He quoted a verse from the unauthoritative Christian scripture comparing Jesus to a lamb. Since the word “lamb” is mentioned numerous times throughout the Hebrew Bible, any one of them can be a contender for Matthew’s non-prophecy. (I showed Matthew what prophecy looks like in the Bible; he ignored it.) It could be a reference to the Jewish people, alluded to in Psalm 44:23 (44:22 in Christian Bibles) or in Isaiah 53:7.
If Matthew wants to take my challenges seriously and really answer all my questions, instead of preaching at me, then I would consider reopening my dialogue with him. I’m not holding my breath.
MP
Go back and and answer one by one. Let’s wait for Dina, agreed?
Matthew Perry
Dina is back and given you yet another challenge. I hope iam wrong but, You seem to have a problem talking with the ladies here so it’s your move.
Concerned Reader,
So you want to follow Jesus’ teaching, but not follow Him? I suppose it would be accurate to say you are an apostate. You certainly are not a follower of Yeshua / Jesus, revealed in the Law, the Prophets and the Gospels.
Try reading Psalm 2.
“Serve Yahweh with fear and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way. [Psalm 2:11-12]
Mathew Perri, a person’s teaching is not the same as the person.
you have said that Jesus is not G-d, but you haven’t learned the simplest lesson that this belief of yours is supposed to teach.
if you actually believe he isn’t G-d, then you don’t actually need his presence to get to G-d, any more than a Jew needs to have a one on one chat with Moses or an angel to get to G-d.
You have the ethics that Jesus set down, that is all you need. If you make him “the only mediator,” between you and G-d, you are following Pauline thinking inadvertently.
Torah did not need Moses or Jesus. G-d could have delivered his message through anyone.
Idolatry is making something unnecessary into something more than it is. Christians (and yourself) are making more of Jesus than you should, just as ancient Israelites once made more of the brass serpent than they should have.
You seem to think that the canonical gospels have nothing to do with Paul, but the time period in which they were written was after Paul had exercised influence. So, believing in Jesus as the only means to atone, comes from Paul, not from Jesus’ own words.
You are inadvertently doing something far worse than a trinitarian Mathew Perri, because you confess that Jesus is not divine, but nonetheless say you need him to get to G-d, or to be on good terms with him.
You have made a creation your center point for relating to G-d. I don’t know if you realize that the golden calf was not a replacement for G-d, but a replacement for Moses as a conduit to G-d. Check this out. A small change in translation of a verse and what it does to the context.
Exodus 32:23 They said to me, ‘Make us judges who will go before us. AS FOR THIS FELLOW MOSES who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’
The word elohim doesn’t just mean “god” but can also refer to judges. Moses was the judge. He spoke to G-d, then to the people. When he went up the mountain, people freaked out and made an image to replace him.
Matthew, if you got rid of that deceptive, corrupt xian translation and got yourself a good translation (by the Jews) of the Tanach, it would help you a lot. Here is a much better translation of those verses:
Psalm 2:11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with quaking. 12. Arm yourselves with purity lest He become angry and you perish in the way, for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praises of all who take refuge in Him.
(Source: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16223/jewish/Chapter-2.htm)
matthew, anybody reading john alone can clearly see that cr is making things up. he is trying to be like paul to please the jews.
Concerned Reader,
I believe Yeshua /Jesus is God – He is divine.
I’ve never said otherwise, You can disagree, but don’t slander me and falsely accuse me.
Robert2016
You wrote, QUOTE:
“cr is making things up. he is trying to be like paul to please the jews.”
Amen- you are right.
And this is a VERY common false teaching among self-proclaimed “Christian Evangelists.”
They take Paul’s boastful blasphemous false testimony about himself, and make it into a “command of God” to be “all things to all men.”
Paul was NOT “all things to all men.”
Paul never “saved” anyone.
It is NOT a command of God to “be all things to all men” for “evangelism.” It’s Paul the false apostle being a phony, and bragging about it.
Jesus never said to be all things to all men.
Jesus was not, and did not try to be all things to all men when He walked the earth.
None of us can be all things to all men, and we should not try to be.
The Resurrected Messiah Yeshua can NOW say He has become all things to all men, but He is the only one who can ever truly say, or will ever be able to truly make that claim. Paul the false apostle had a “messiah complex” and he was wrong.
Southern Noahide
Thank you for the helpful link to the Hebrew Scriptures. I understand that God entrusted the Jews with His word, so you are to be a light to the Gentiles, and you have done that here. https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/a-story-and-a-song/#comment-27809
Looking at the text of the two verses I quoted from Psalm 2, yes, I see your point, they don’t seem so “Messianic”…..
However, looking at the rest of Psalm 2, other parts DO appear to be “Messianic” and to point to Yeshua the only begotten Son of God…. What do you think?
Matthew wrote: “I understand that God entrusted the Jews with His word, so you are to be a light to the Gentiles, and you have done that here.”
First of all, I’m not Jewish, I’m a Noahide (who lives in the south), hence the posting nickname, Southern Noahide.
You also said: “Looking at the text of the two verses I quoted from Psalm 2, yes, I see your point, they don’t seem so “Messianic”….. However, looking at the rest of Psalm 2, other parts DO appear to be “Messianic” and to point to Yeshua the only begotten Son of God…. What do you think?”
I was not raised in a xian household. My family was very secular and the topic of religion rarely came up. I was in my 30’s before I read the New Testament.
Therefore my mind and thinking was not shaped or influenced by xianity. So when I look at the text of Psalm 2, I see it for what it says. In answer to your question about “messianic”, David was a messiah (annointed) king over Israel, Hashem’s firstborn son. I can’t imagine how you can squeeze or force-fit yeshu into that psalm. When you have to resort to something “pointing to” or “alluding to” something, that is an admission that the text does not say what you want it to say.
Matthew, about your comment: “Looking at the text of the two verses I quoted from Psalm 2, yes, I see your point….”. Did you see my point about xian translations being so deceptive? They deliberately mistranslated Psalm 2:11 to sound christological. This is by no means the only place the xian translators tampered with the hebrew scriptures. Doesn’t that bother you?????
Yes, I always wondered why Christians are not bothered by the obvious tampering.
I read this excellent article, A story and a song. Likewise, I have considerable experience in “Reformed” Presbyterian, and Baptist churches, and I’ve dabbled in Messianic Judaism. I have a Masters Degree from Dallas Theological Seminary too. And also, “My prayer is to meet other people who turn to the real God, the God of Israel”
Below are 4 highlights, which I will comment on:
.1) QUOTE “…every Christian inherits a lens through which he/she sees and understands things.”
The “Christian” lens is Paul the false apostle, the self-appointed “Apostle to the Gentiles.” According to the study notes in the Reformed “Geneva Study Bible”, “All the Reformers saw the Book of Romans as the ‘God-given key to understanding all Scripture.’”
.2) QUOTE “I faced Paul and his teachings and I discovered that he changed a human into a God. I faced the problem of infallibility of New Testament. I faced 2000 years of Christianity.”
Paul literally didn’t know the first thing about following God., and Paul made himself into “god.” The Book of Acts 11:26 is the first mention of “Christians” – in Antioch, around the time that Paul spent a year teaching there, some years after the original church was already established. Someone there invented the term. The first “New Testament” was all about Paul, and was a creation of the Second Century heretic Marcion- I’ve posted a link and info already elsewhere. The supposed “infallibility of the New Testament” is based on a misinterpretation, out of context, of one verse in a letter written by Paul, 2 Timothy 3:16, and it ignores the previous verse 2 Timothy 3:15, which indicates Paul was actually making some sort of reference to the Hebrew Scriptures, not his own letters.
.3) QUOTE “I realized that now I am only with Hashem, no mediator between us, just me and God and his Torah. This makes me more responsible for my life, for my beliefs.”
It’s important to be responsible. And I’m not arguing for a theology of the “centrality of the sacritices”. Yet, there is a tremendous amount of material given by God in the Torah about sacrifices – God in the Garden of Eden, Abel, Noah, Abraham, the whole system for the Tabernacle…. Do you just ignore all that?
.4) QUOTE “I explained them that we have to pray only to God, not to Jesus. I never told them to pray to Jesus but in our friends circle, everyone is praying to Jesus, so they involuntarily prayed to Jesus. Now they pray only to God and without “in Jesus name”.”
I can relate to your point, and Jesus did give us the “Our Father” as a model prayer, he didn’t say “pray to me.” And in his closing words through the Apostle Matthew, Jesus spoke of “the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” We are talking about the behavior of billions of people, so it’s impossible to be completely objective about “what people believe.” But it might be accurate to say that in some “Charismatic / Pentecostal Christian” circles, they overemphasize the Holy Spirit.
Certainly in many “Evangelical Bible-believing Christian” circles, they mostly preach Paul, and “the cross of Christ” as Paul defined that…. So they overemphasize Paul and his false idea of who Jesus was. I do think that many nominally “Christian” churches largely ignore God the Father, because they rarely look at the Torah or the Prophets. Why? Because they believe the false teaching of false apostle Paul that Jesus “abolished the law.” I believe we are to pray TO God the Father, Yahweh the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel, but THROUGH His Messiah Yeshua, as revealed in the Torah and Prophets and the Gospels. In other words “In the name of Yeshua / Jesus.”
You know that in the Torah God revealed Himself as Holy, and he struck Aaron’s sons dead on the spot when they offered “strange fire” before Him. And in the time of King David, when some men were carrying the arc of of the Covenant, and someone touched the arc to steady it from falling, and he was struck dead instantly. It seems unreasonable to me – but who am I? God is God. We can’t just approach Him any old way we choose, and expect Him to be pleased.
parshat kedoshim- Lev 19
you should be kadosh for I god am holy. No mention of Jesus here other than maybe worthless idols.
If you like Leviticus, how about chapter 16 too?
“Yahweh spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached Yahweh. Yahweh said to Moses: “Tell your brother Aaron not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place …..or else he will die, because I appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.” [Leviticus 16:1-2]
Are you going to just show up before God yourself with a Torah scroll and say “here I am” – whenever you choose, wearing shorts and a T shirt, with no blood sacrifice, anywhere you want? Based on the experience of Aaron’s sons, I would advise otherwise…..
Mathew Perri you keep stressing how false Paul is as a person, but you are still influenced by Paul more than anything with this sacrifice business.
Jesus never actually tells anyone that they must trust in the blood that I spill for you for atonement. in his own words, He says, “this is my blood of the new covenant given for you,” a clear allusion to the establishing of a covenant, not alluding to a requisite belief in Jesus’ shed blood as a method of atonement or forgiveness. Jesus’ own disciples still went to the temple after he died. Paul allegedly did an oath requiring a sin offering after its completion. Repentance is alluded to as being the sure fire way to be forgiven, cf. Acts 2:38.
Blood in Tanakh that is spilled is for purification, and for the inaugurating of a covenant, (such as the covenant of the parts.) blood itself never forgives anything.
The Torah is plain in teaching that an unworthy sacrifice is a worthless one. Even Paul, (your false apostle) claims that taking body and blood of Jesus in an unworthy manner means damnation, 1 Corinthians 11:27.
It seems to me that you are influenced most by protestants, and “faith only,” like most messianics, but that is not an orthodox Christian view. Before Martin Luther, Christians cared about how people behaved, not just about what they believed, at least that is what their teachings are on the matter.
The Lord’s Supper is NOT a “sacrifice” with two “elements” of the bread and the wine, symbolizing the body and blood of Jesus. That is Paul’s false teaching, hijacking and redefining the meaning in his letter to the Corinthians, to make it about “proclaiming Christ’s death.” You are reading PAAL’s false teaching into the Gospel accounts.
The Lord’s Supper should be an extended meal, like a Passover Seder, to remember Jesus. Everything about Him, His character, teaching, miracles, resurrection, etc. Not a “sacrifice” to “proclaim His death.”
the Lord’s Supper is NOT a “sacrifice” with two “elements” of the bread and the wine, symbolizing the body and blood of Jesus. That is Paul’s false teaching.
If it is false teaching that is fine, but it is what the vast majority of historic Christians have taught about the Eucharist, so, while you may be right, its a very very old teaching that was around as little as 50 years after Jesus died.
In my decades of experience attending “Christian Churches”, when they read Scripture before “The Lord’s Supper”, it’s almost always from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians. (probably more than 95% of the time.) The rest of the time, it’s almost always from Paul’s Gentile companion Luke. Neither Paul nor Luke were present at the Last Supper with Jesus.
I have never heard anyone read from John, who was present, or from Mark, which may have been based on Peter’s testimony. Only 1 time in 20+ years did I hear someone read from Matthew’s account before “the Lord’s Supper” even though Matthew had been present.
I’ve heard it said that “Paul instituted the Lord’s Supper.” That may be true – and Paul twisted it and redefined it to be something convenient for himself. Namely, a simple, cold ritual that he could manage from a distance, without being physically present at the church he abandoned in Corinth, but where he was still clinging to power and “rights” to money and benefits. It was supposed to be SUPPER. A meal together for followers of Jesus to remember HIM. Not an “Institution” with penalties. But Paul changed the meaning, and most of the “Christian Church” follow Paul in this, and in many other points too. Again, Marcion and his “New Testament” in the Second Century were really the seed bed for “Paul Worship.”
matthew, anybody reading john alone can clearly see that cr is making things up. he is trying to be like paul to please the jews.
Robert 2016, that’s extremely rude, not too mention offensive. Why not try putting my screen name “Concerned Reader” into the search bar at the top of this page. I have written a few posts for this site, and I wish you would look at the verses that I posted from their text. There are more ways to read religious texts than the fundamentalist way. I made appeals to the ethics of Jesus, not the theology. Everyone knows that there is a deified Jewish person in the Christian Bible, the key point is to be able to see that this is not the only thing a person can see.
“Robert 2016, that’s extremely rude, not too mention offensive. ”
okay CR, i apologise.
The “deified Jewish person in the Christian Bible” is Paul, the self-appointed Apostle to the Gentiles. who falsely claimed
to the Corinthians:
“I became your father….therefore I urge you to imitate me”, and
“I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.”
and to the Colossians:
“I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.”
PAAL had a messiah complex. He was wrong.
Mathew Perri, I am not a Christian. Since you speak about Paul as a false teacher, I assumed (forgive me,) that you rejected his deity. Again, I apologize.
You have heard of the Ebionites haven’t you? They rejected Paul, (just like you,) but they also rejected the deity of Jesus (partially because of Deuteronomy 4,) instead opting to see him as the chosen agent of G-d. Sorry for misunderstanding/misrepresenting you.
out of curiosity, Why do you trust gospel texts that were written well after Paul’s influence on the Church had so thoroughly saturated Christianity?
>>>>>You have heard of the Ebionites haven’t you? They rejected Paul, (just like you,) but they also rejected the deity of Jesus<<<<
Correct me if I am wrong, CR, but I believe the Ebionites were "pre-deity", coming from the original church of James in Jerusalem. In other words, they could not "reject Jesus' divinity" because the concept of Jesus as a deity did not yet exist. I believe the author of "John" was the first to propose such an idea around 100 years after the crucifixion, or at least were the first texts to allow for such an interpretation. The "full deity" of Jesus was not accepted doctrine until 325 CE.
Fred, There were two groups of Ebionites. Some of the Ebionites (according to the Ebionite gospel fragments) believed Jesus to be like one of the archangels, where G-d’s spirit was believed by them to have dwelt in Jesus at Baptism, while other Ebionites viewed him as simply a man.
In reality, we see from Ebionite and Nazarene gospel fragments that both the proto-orthodox Christian view (of Jesus as deity,) and the view that he was not deity, were both early and likely coexisted to a degree until Christian beliefs were codified in the Church councils.
Even today among Christians who reject Jesus’ divinity, we know they still see him as central to their idea of relating to G-d, and so, to me at least, it demonstrates that viewing him as “divine” in some sense was early.
Add to this later examples of messianism in Judaism.
Jesus was not the only person to be deified by a small band of followers. Its very true that only a minority of later messianists have deified their own teachers, but since the phenomenon has recurred, I don’t think the claim that Jesus was deity is late at all. It probably occurred less than 30 years after he died.
Mathew Perri, traditional churches commonly read from 1 Corinthians and other Pauline letters like Romans during the Eucharist because those sources are the oldest form of Christian liturgy that we posses, and its what traditional orthodox liturgy has always drawn from for how to conduct the last supper.
Those letters of Paul were written and circulated well before the canonical gospels of Mark or Mathew were even written down. Paul’s letters contain our earliest examples of Christian iturgical formulations, the earliest information on how churches were organized, on what their authority structure was, on how a bishop should conduct a congregation, etc.
Simply speaking, no letters of Paul means no Christian Church, and no surviving ministry to the gentiles.
The Torah observant Jewish Christian movement died out by the 4th century. If you believe Paul is false, then you should simply jettison Jesus.
Do you simply not understand that Mark, Mathew, Luke-Acts, and John were texts written much later? They are not eyewitness accounts written by people who talked to Jesus. The gospels are later biographies.
The Churches use those sources from Paul because they are our oldest attested sources, and the communities that wrote the NT books IN GREEK were Paul’s communities.
Christians in Jerusalem were all simply Torah observant Jews. They presumably wouldn’t even need a building called “Church” or an “ecclesia” because they would simply attend services with other Jews in a synagogue.
Its ironic that you reject Paul and yet you cling to a divine Jesus who atones for sins.
I’ve heard it said that “Paul instituted the Lord’s Supper.” That may be true – and Paul twisted it and redefined it to be something convenient for himself.
EXACTLY, PAUL INSTITUTED IT.
Its likely that for Jesus this meal was just dinner with his students before bad things happened. It only has theological significance to Christians because of Paul. Christians read from Corinthians because Paul made this into a liturgical ritual that Christians should commemorate.
Paul introduced the cracker and grape Juice, not Jesus. Paul is the one who established the liturgical rite that Christians (ancient and modern) call last supper.
There would have been no gentiles present when Jesus at privately with his students. Gentiles today only reenact a “last supper,” because of Paul.
Con, what Matthew fails to realize is that if not for Paul, Christianity would have died out like all the other Second Temple sects and would never have taken hold as a mass religion.
Bingo, Dina! I really enjoy your posts!
Thank you!
Yep, I realize that’s the case Dina. It makes me sad. Paul did more to make Jesus accessible to non Jews, and here we have Mathew hating on Paul, but not realizing that his foundation is resting on the man from Tarsus.
It doesn’t make me sad, because I have no special regard for Paul, the man responsible for nearly 2000 years of horrific Jewish suffering. I do have a high regard for the truth, however, and that is why I am correcting Matthew.
CR
Why are you sad?
You did a great job of explaining it to him, whether he listens or not is up to him.
LarryB it makes me sad because its nobody’s fault that they believe in this. They find tons of meaning in it, they have their own (sometimes experiential) reasons for believing it is trustworthy, etc. People follow what they know from experience, so I have a difficult time positing nefariousness as a huge motive. A person can only grasp as much truth as they are exposed to, and its very difficult to question years of what you were taught.
I agree, Con, and that is why we reserve our judgement of anyone who follows any faith in good faith; i.e., they don’t know better and truly believe they are serving God according to His will. God is merciful and He is the true Judge, and He certainly didn’t hire us to do that job for Him.
The problem for us arises when Christians aggressively target Jews for conversion. We want to be left alone, but that is not enough. And they are not even willing to engage, to really listen, to accept that we might have a powerful intellectual basis upon which to stand. And as such, they condemn us. I have encountered on this blog deep levels of contempt for Jews. It’s troubling and angering.
And why Else would they come here.
Dina,
Fred said “Bingo, Dina! I really enjoy your posts!”
I say ditto to that! I really enjoy your posts too.
Thank you, SN!
“Christians in Jerusalem were all simply Torah observant Jews. They presumably wouldn’t even need a building called “Church” or an “ecclesia” because they would simply attend services with other Jews in a synagogue.”
which then begs the question , why would an aramaic/hebrew speaking jew use the words “the church”?
5If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.
are there any jewish texts which have the jews using the words “the ecclesia” ?
why would a definite article precede ecclesia?
why does it sound like jesus in matthew is aware of “the ecclesia” and people should “tell it to” ?
why would an aramaic speaking jew say “the ecclesia”
why would this aramaic speaking jew who told his followers not to go to the pigs or gentiles use pagan greek word “ecclesia” and think that gatherings are taking place in it?
Bingo. Mathew doesn’t yet realize that the gospels are Greek biographies of Jesus written from the 70s-90s, after Paul had died. I doubt very much that he knows that our earliest gospel fragments date from about 150CE at the earliest (which is really good as ancient manuscripts go,) but still not first generation autographs, although no biblical literature Tanakh or NT has first generation copies.
He does seem to understand that rituals like the Eucharist were instituted by Paul, but he doesn’t realize how the entirety of a “Church” administrative structure and service were likewise instituted by Paul. Jesus never tells us anything about how we should administer a congregation.
Granted, Paul based a lot of things in his congregations on what already went on in a Synagogue, but he established congregations that were administered (or at least maintained) by gentile converts. The Church with a capital C is the work of Paul.
I will say this though. All of Paul’s work had a preexisting template in the time period, namely the established norms for G-d fearing non Jews. Granted, the Christians took it up a notch by forbidding their followers from engaging in any civic activities in Rome, (which is one reason why they were persecuted by the empire,) but that is a different matter.
Its sad because he is a Christian who wants to be less Pauline, but he doesn’t see how much his beliefs still need Paul in order to make any sense. If he were into just following Jesus, he wouldn’t need any of the theology he believes in.
Southern Noahide,
Regarding your comment buried above about Psalm 2:11
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/a-story-and-a-song/#comment-27858
Again, yes, out of context “my translation” doesn’t seem so good, I don’t know enough to say for certain that this particular verse doesn’t reflect at a least somewhat of a “Christocentric slant”…… However, looking at it in context of the rest of the Psalm, it does not seem that far off. And I believe there are a number of reasons that Psalm 2 appears to be to be pointing to Yeshua of the Gospels (not the “Christ of Paul” and modern “Christianity” as currently understood……
I don’t want to make any assumptions here, I want to try to understand how you see Psalm 2 and why.
Do you see Psalm 2 as somehow “prophetic”, pointing to someone or something?
Do you see it as “Messianic”?
You mentioned David – do you see this pointing to David, and if so specifically why?
Do you have expectation of “A Messiah”, or maybe “Messiah ben David” and “Messiah ben Joseph”?
There are people here seeking truth, including me.
Matthew wrote:
“And I believe there are a number of reasons that Psalm 2 appears to be pointing to Yeshua of the Gospels (not the “Christ of Paul” and modern “Christianity” as currently understood……”
It doesn’t point to anything in the NT or the gospels by any stretch of the imagination. Quite the opposite. You are attempting to retrofit yeshu into the text. I’ve seen xian’s doing this time and time again. They scan the pages of the Tanach looking for anything they perceive as sounding like yeshu.
As I said before, I was not raised as a xian therefore I don’t look at the Tanach through yeshu glasses.
Matthew, I asked you before and I’ll ask one more time. xian bible translators deliberately mistranslate and tamper with the hebrew scriptures. Doesn’t that bother you????
Southern Noahide,
I can’t speak for certain about the intentions of thousands of Bible translators over the course of 2000 years. No translation is perfect. Some are better than others. There are some bad translations of certain texts that bother me, yes.
But you are not telling me – what DO you see in Psalm 2? You don’t see Yeshua – what DO you see, if anything? What does it mean? Why bother reading it? We can’t understand God and the Scriptures perfectly to be sure – but it must mean something to you. If you see David, why exactly?
Southern Noahide, never mind Bible translations, what about mistranslations and outright twisting out of context that takes place directly in Christian Scripture? In the first chapter of Matthew alone the author egregiously misquote, mistranslates, and twists Isaiah 7:14. There are at least four more horrific examples in the following chapter, the worst of which is a complete fabrication. The author simply made up a prophecy that Jesus “would be called a Nazarene.” There is no such prophecy in the entire Hebrew Bible and the city of Nazareth is not even mentioned once.
But why should this bother Matthew? Those who wish to worship idols do not concern themselves with the truth that is staring them in the face.
QUOTE
“The author simply made up a prophecy that Jesus “would be called a Nazarene.” There is no such prophecy in the entire Hebrew Bible and the city of Nazareth is not even mentioned once.”
You make a valid point here, although Matthew didn’t quote a specific prophet.
As I understand it, a creative writer could loosely translate the Hebrew “Nazareth” as “Branch Town.” Jesus was the “Branch Man”, the shoot coming out of the stump of Jesse. Isaiah 11:1
A bit of a play on words – which I understand is common, even when God is speaking.
See Jeremiah 1:11-12, “almond tree” sounds like “watching.”
Who says God can’t have some fun with words?
Your arguments are becoming more and more convoluted. The text says “he shall be called..” Others have cited that as being something else. Do you subscribe to the alternate theory.
According to Matthew he CANNOT be a root of Jesse. To be from a “root” one has to be FROM that root. According to the Xtian text his father was Not Joseph and had no earthly male root. Obviously your text is self-contradictory.
You’re making stuff up. I’ll talk to you when you’re willing to leave fantasy land. Good bye!
Sharbano
Please see Luke 3:32 (Mary’s genealogy)
It says in Your bible that he was NOT the son of Joseph. Therefore he is NOT from the root of Jesse.