1,216 Responses to What Do Miracles Prove?

1. Eliyah Lion says:

   June 21, 2015 at 7:00 pm

   Yisroel you base your belief system on miracles. Your discredit all miracles or signs and wonders and you put Mosheh miracle of Elohim speaking to the People as the one Miracle to be believed. Hmm that is basing your faith still on a miracle when we know that faith is walking with confidence in the Presence of YHWH knowing that He will always be their for us.

   Abraham is the father in the Faith not Mosheh. Mosheh is the Law giver a prophet. Without Abraham act of pure faith in Elohim, Mosheh and all the People would had not existed.

   Miracles proves nothing and maybe given to the weak to test their faith and give them a sort of physical proof of the invisible reality.

   Miracles also should be evaluated by degree of power:

   1) an elohim talking to a People is not the most powerful miracle proving or giving Mosheh authority any false-demon gods could do the same with YHWH permission to fool the crowd. See Hindus miracles and all demonic manifestations in this pagan land…

   2) the miracle the lepers hand or the stick changing to a serpent are old magician tricks of Egypt that do not give anything but only impress weak minds

   3) the miracle of the sun is impressive for it requires much more power to do but still with Elohim permission a powerful angel could do it

   4) now walking on waters should not be considered also as a powerful proof but could be done by invisible beings sustaining your body… see the many cases of levitation which proves nothing

   5) the miracle of the multiplication of bread and fish that starts to become very impressive and powerful but people could alleged that it can not be seen by many

   6) the only miracle that can give authority to a prophet is the miracle of Eliyahu and Yahushuo: the Resurrection of the dead for no earthly or angelic powers can do it. Only the Elohim can resurrect a dead body.

   Now the testimony of the Gospel gives many such miracles but the most striking to a crowd of many including many Pharisees is the miracle of the resurrection of Lazarus dead in a tomb for 4 days already smelling and decomposing… That is only POSSIBLE by The ELOHIM alone no entity angelic or human, demonic or holy can do it without the Hand of Eloah that is impossible… That is a powerful proof that trumps all pagan or mosaic miracles.

   For who is the Master of the Resurrection??

   I Am the Resurrection and the Life (Gospel of John 11)

   17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles[a] away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

   20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

   23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

   24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

   25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

   27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
   Jesus and Death, the Last Enemy

   28 And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was[b] in the place where Martha met Him. 31 Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”[c]

   32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

   33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?”

   They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”

   35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”

   37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”
   Lazarus Raised from the Dead

   38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”

   Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

   40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[d] And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
   The Plot to Kill Jesus

   45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. 46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

   49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us[e] that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

   53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death. 54 Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with His disciples.

   55 And the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went from the country up to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves. 56 Then they sought Jesus, and spoke among themselves as they stood in the temple, “What do you think—that He will not come to the feast?” 57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a command, that if anyone knew where He was, he should report it, that they might seize Him.

   Reply
   • yourphariseefriend says:

     June 21, 2015 at 11:23 pm

     Eliyahu Moses was the greatest prophet as testified in Scripture – Deuteronomy 34:10-12. Your theory is obviously false. Miracles are not measured by how difficult they are to do – God can do anything – even provide a test to see if we will follow the false prophet. The question is – how much credibility does God allow the prophet to have – Exodus 19:9.

     Reply
     • Eliyah Lion says:

       June 22, 2015 at 1:27 am

       Yisroel what is your authority to decree that my exposition of the gradation of miracles is false? Is it to disturbing to face the truth?

       Mosheh certainly was a great prophet : 10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face…(Deuteronomy 34)
       That does not make him our father in the Faith which is Abraham
       It seems that you make him an idol to be worshipped
       That does not make him greater than the Messiah Elohim who saved us from the Spiritual Egypt
       That does not make him the living Torah

       Who did Moseh saw face to face? Who is this form of YHWH? (Number 12)

       Now the Resurrection is not a test of the Elohim but His Promise to us? It is a pillar of the Jewish and Christian Faith, you know that?? Who is the Master of the Resurrection is ONLY THE ONE ELOHIM.

       A dead for 4 days as Lazarus (Gospel of John 11) risen from decomposition is only possible by the Elohim. That miracle alone made the population of Yerushala’im accept Yahushuo with palm leaves proclaiming him as the Messiah. Those who saw this amazing miracle accepted his Testimony but you and your sect rejected Him for you were more attached to your sacrificial system and your man made religion that the true Religion based on the Faith of our forefathers whom is first Abraham who had faith in YHWH knowing that sanctifying his son he will be resurrected a type the Son to be sacrificed for the redemption of our sins, him the Innocent Lamb of Passover.

       Conclusion: The real faith is in the Resurrection the only true Miracle only capable to be performed by Elohim Himself. Bless is He who came and come and his coming in the Name of YHWH!!

       Reply
       • yourphariseefriend says:

         June 22, 2015 at 6:36 am

         Eliyahu The Torah testifies that the false prophet can do a miracle – not that he could do it but that God will do it through him in order to test us (Deuteronomy 13:3,4). The Torah does not limit the miracle and say – aha! – but a resurrection is different. Therefore Eliyahu – your words contradict the Torah – so I cannot accept them and you cannot expect anyone who loves God to accept them.

         Reply
         • Eliyah Lion says:

           June 25, 2015 at 10:56 pm

           Yisroel your argument is nil for it would have been valid if Yahushuo was redirecting worship toward idols. The Resurrection of Lazarus was a clear sign that his word was true for He only preached the worship of the FATHER YHWH

           5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.[b] 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

           8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

           Our Father in heaven,
           Hallowed be Your name.
           10
           Your kingdom come.
           Your will be done
           On earth as it is in heaven.
           11
           Give us this day our daily bread.
           12
           And forgive us our debts,
           As we forgive our debtors.
           13
           And do not lead us into temptation,
           But deliver us from the evil one.
           For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]

           14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
         • Concerned Reader says:

           June 25, 2015 at 11:18 pm

           He only preached the worship of the FATHER YHWH

           THEN WHY DO YOU insist that people PRAY TO JESUS AND INSIST ON APPROACHING G-D through him.
2. eric krakofsky says:

   June 24, 2015 at 4:34 pm

   ypfriend, So there are more trustworthy miracles than the others – according to you. Some shouldn’t prove anything, , the others do. The miracle at Sinai was most trustworthy. But resurrection? No? You claim it is nothing, even if it happened- that conclusion can be made based on your message about resurrection. ( So I am not focusing on proving it did or not). I can only say that I can choose between a group of those who tried to find every way to falsify the resurrection fact or I can choose between those who witnessed it and believed. Who is more trustworthy? Those pharisees who witnessed previously lazarus’ resurrection looked for ways to kill him to get rid of any evidence ( especially resurrection done by Jesus) . They are the same who
   ‘ missed a sign of Jesus resurrection’ somehow… or just failed to believe . The same way like they tried to make sure nobody would know about Lazarus being risen from the dead by Jesus, the same way they made sure in their news that Jesus’s never rose from the dead.

   Back to whether resurrection is a trustworthy miracle or a miracle that can be done by any false prophet to deceive people. OT lists only two people among ONLY God’s righteous people who had a privilege to perform that miracle ( Elisha, Elijah) . As power over death and life belongs strictly to God He is not giving it to ANYBODY just because , nor anybody can just ‘request ‘ it for his deceiving, evil purposes. There was no single person that could just ‘play’ with that power to deceive others and rise others including himself. God’s justice ( sin resulting in death) would be compromised if anybody- a false prophet took that power and could make himself alive anytime he wanted. I =guess – we would have lots of immortal people nowadays.
   Jesus is the third person God gave the privilege to raise others from the dead. He also rose Jesus back to life as a proof of his righteousness.

   Reply
   • Jim says:

     June 24, 2015 at 6:57 pm

     Eric,

     I can see the offense that you feel, written all over your comment. And I understand why you feel this way. It is difficult to hear that one’s faith may be invested in the wrong being. No one likes to face the possibility that he has been deceived, whether by a salesman, a politician, or a religious leader. And when one has invested his emotions is a leader, it becomes hard to hear, not only that that he has been fooled, but that his leader, whom he loves, is not who he thought he was. Yet, we must all face the possibility that we have erred, and we must face the possibility that those we love have been unworthy of our devotion. It will be better for us to face that reality, than to keep giving ourselves to a deceiver.

     But how will we know who is the deceiver? You have attributed great deception to the Pharisees. You have implied that they tried to cover up the resurrection, a charge you get from Matthew, I know. You also accuse them of wanting to kill Lazarus, based on the John. And you ask, “Who is trustworthy?”

     You should have asked that before privately trying the Pharisees. You have assumed their guilt, based on no evidence except on the say-so of their enemies. (Do you even have two witnesses?)

     I think we should investigate Matthew and John, and see if they are trustworthy. Is the way they portray their opponents fair? Is it true? Before I investigate this matter, however, I think would like to take a short detour.

     Christians are often capable of deception in order to promote their cause. I once came across a missionary site called jewsforjudaism2000. What is wrong with this? This is an obvious deception. The missionary is hoping to catch the unwary and snare them in his web. He does not present Judaism. Instead he presents his Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53. As far as I can tell, he never updates. Isaiah 53 is his pet scripture, and he misrepresents himself, making a pretense of Judaism, hoping, I am sure, to attract people googling “Jews for Judaism”.

     The modern Christian movement has made a habit of deceiving people. This is one reason for the rise of “Messianic Judaism.” Judaizing their Christianity, they hope to make it palatable to the Jewish people. Put a kippah on: your Christianity becomes Jewish. Don tefillin: your Christianity becomes Jewish. Explore the Hebrew language: Jewish.

     But this is modern Christianity. While it proves to be untrustworthy, that does not mean that its founders were untrustworthy. If you said this, you were right.

     But how can we know? What if Matthew lied about the Pharisees? How will we know if he told the truth or not? Certainly we know that he was not an eyewitness to the Pharisees’ cover up of the resurrection. Conspiracies are not done publicly. We seem to be at an impasse. He could be trustworthy, but I do not know.

     Or I would not know if I had not read his book, already. But a careful reading of Matthew reveals that Matthew would say whatever was necessary to prove his belief system. One need only look at his use of the prophets to see that Matthew has not made the truth a priority. His very first employment of a prophecy, Isaiah 7.14, he not only takes out of context, but literally alters the text. He changes the words. I am not referencing turning a “young woman” into a “virgin” either. Isaiah says that the mother of the child would name him Immanuel. Matthew says that “they,” whoever they are, would call him Immanuel. Why? Because Jesus’ name was not Immanuel, and if you want to make it so Isaiah is talking about Jesus, you have to alter the prophecy.

     Matthew regularly alters the prophets to suit his agenda. These alterations do not have to be direct changes of the text, like he does with Isaiah 7.14. With Hosea 11.1, he alters the meaning of the prophecy by quoting only a few words so that the reader will not realize that the subject is Israel, not the Messiah. So, now, let us return to the question: is Matthew trustworthy?

     The answer is obvious. He is not. Matthew has no respect for the words of the prophets. He does not mind altering the words of God. He certainly cannot be trusted not to make up lies about his opponents. The fact that he attributes a conspiracy to cover up the resurrection to them does not make it true. And, inasmuch as he has shown no respect for the truth thus far, I have no reason to believe that he is not merely maligning his opposition. It is easy to avoid answering their objections if he makes them out to be liars from the beginning. However, it takes very little scrutiny to discover that Matthew is himself a liar, and his accusations are not to be trusted.

     John is a little harder to investigate. He seldom quotes Tanach. He does give a simpleton’s reading of the prohibition to break the bones of the Paschal lamb. But he seldom quotes the scriptures Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled. And his testimony cannot be much verified. He does contradict Matthew on several key points regarding the resurrection, but Matthew has already been shown to be a liar. So John could feasibly be in the right.

     But we also see that the author of John has a deep antipathy to the Jews. He maligns them merely for their unbelief. One can see from John 5 and 8, and other places, that according to John, one should have accepted Jesus unquestioningly. The fact that the Jews did not accept Jesus without substantial proof, even while Jesus violated the Sabbath is a problem for John. And so, those who do not believe are to be called “sons of the devil” and the like. John’s vitriol spills out for those who do not unquestioningly submit to the unsubstantiated claims of Jesus.

     Can he be trusted to have represented the Pharisees fairly? Obviously the answer is “no”. His gospel is full of excoriation for those who do not blindly believe. Clearly he will have to make the Pharisees into villains, for they are a perceived threat to his new found religion. (Also, according to John, it was not the Pharisees who wanted to assassinate Lazarus, but the chief priests.)
     I can understand your frustration at having your faith discussed here. It is hard to recognize that we have been lied to all our lives. It is hard to separate our affection from the object of our affection. But you have unfairly maligned the Pharisees. The NT is an unreliable collection. It clearly maligns all who disagree with it, and it is not above attributing evil plots to its foes. Do not give your faith too readily to that gospels which shows itself to be untrustworthy, nor malign those whose testimony you never heard.\

     Jim

     Reply
     • eric krakofsky says:

       June 28, 2015 at 7:10 pm

       Jim, you are wrong.I don’t feel frustrated . You are trying impose feelings on someone that are not there. I am simply sorry for you all unable to see the truth . Going around with many words but not responding strait.

       Reply
     • eric krakofsky says:

       June 29, 2015 at 12:08 pm

       Jim, you focus on Matthew and John. But NT message is not a message of just two people living at the same time but 27 books written by different authors in different time period confirming the same facts about Jesus . Events with correlation in every book and agreement of the truth presented about how God speaks through His son. Events with testimonies of completely different people confirming the same facts. Events with correlation to OT truth that mankind needs the redemption not just from the enemies but the death and bondage of sin. And simply; gospels are the message with call to repentance and coming to God and message of His forgiveness before Go;s time of judgement comes. It opened the door for many people among the nations to hear the message of God’s forgiveness and come to God. If it opposes anybody it is those who themselves opposed that truth.

       Reply
       • Jim says:

         June 29, 2015 at 12:34 pm

         Eric,

         If you reread my comments, you will see they were in response to your claim that the Pharisees are not trustworthy. You chose to emphasize events that happened only in their two books, events which prove to your mind the untrustworthiness of the Pharisees. But you accepted those stories uncritically. Those authors were not trustworthy.

         Regarding the rest of the NT, it is not trustworthy either. Paul misrepresents Tanach regularly. Hebrews misrepresents Tanach. And it is evident that the NT writers had a poor understanding of the Torah system in general.

         But I am glad to see that you are willing to admit that Matthew and John are untrustworthy, at least. If you continue investigating the other books of the NT, you will soon see that they are also not to be trusted.

         Paul is particularly without merit. As I mentioned, he misrepresents Torah at regularly. But he also misrepresented himself. It is not credible that he was a student of Gamliel as he claimed. For one thing, he persecuted the Christians according to Acts. Yet, according to the same book, Gamliel was against that sort of thing. Paul does not seem to be much of a student. Moreover, Paul was working for the chief priests, Sadducees. This is also highly unlikely, if he was a Pharisee. The two groups were quite opposed to one another.

         Because I focused on the two gospels you spotlighted does not mean that the rest of the NT is trustworthy. Far from it! I only chose those two because you had relied upon their testimony in your comments.

         Jim

         Reply
         • eric krakofsky says:

           June 29, 2015 at 7:27 pm

           Jim “But I am glad to see that you are willing to admit that Matthew and John are untrustworthy,” Really did I say that? Did I admit that?wow! That is what I don’t like people are doing on that site ; suggesting something that wasn’t said. Anyways no point for me to stretch the discussion about NT being not-trusty. The events in the NT books speak for themselves. Pharisees are not in my spotlight as they are not the main message of the gospels. God’s forgiveness is. Keep your beliefs for yourself, definitely I won’t share them as the truth about the need for what Jesus did goes along with what God said in OT.
         • eric krakofsky says:

           June 29, 2015 at 7:31 pm

           Jim, I mentioned Paul , Peter ,John, James ONLY in relation to discussing the Jewish authors and disciples who witnessed Jesus or participated in his life who later wrote the events down. The reason for spotlighting these few.
   • yourphariseefriend says:

     June 24, 2015 at 10:49 pm

     Eric You are not fighting with me – you are fighting with God’s word. Deuteronomy 13:2(3) clearly says that miracles prove nothing – it gives no limit to the miracle. It doesn’t say “only small miracles.” It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it – again – this is not my idea – it is Scripture – Exodus 19:9

     Reply
     • David says:

       June 25, 2015 at 5:34 pm

       Hi Yisroel,

       You wrote:
       “It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it – again – this is not my idea – it is Scripture – Exodus 19:9”

       My response:
       Actually it is both. You can’t have one without the other. If no one is present to hear the tree fall in the forest, then it is irrelevant. And if the tree doesn’t fall, then no one will hear even if they are present.

       The people witnessed many, many miracles establishing the authority of Moses. It was a continuous and frequent process. If they witnessed ordinary events they would have no reason to trust Moses over anyone else. The events had to be miraculous in nature, and someone had to witness them.

       Exodus 19:9
       9 Then the YHWH said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, in order that the people may hear when I speak with you and so trust you ever after.”

       Early on, prior to Mount Sinai, Moses and the Israelites believed because of the miracles of the staff/snake, leprous hand, and water of the Nile to blood.
       Exodus 4: 1 – 9
       Exodus 4: 30 – 31

       The Israelites again learn to believe/trust in the YHWH and Moses because of another miracle; this time the crossing of the Reed Sea.
       Exodus 14:31

       And the miracles are not limited to the benefit of the Israelites:

       The Egyptians eventually come to understand by way of miracles that the God of the Hebrews is the YHWH.
       Exodus 14: 4, 18

       The Gentiles (outside of Egypt, beginning with Jethro) began to believe that the YHWH was God of the universe after hearing reports of the miracles performed (10 plagues and crossing of the Reed Sea) which resulted in the deliverance of the Israelites:
       Exodus 18: 10 – 11

       Rehab the prostitute (and others in Jericho) came to believe after hearing reports of the miracles perform and the defeat of enemy kings that the YHWH is indeed God in heaven and earth.
       Joshua 2: 8 – 11

       Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Aram, came to understand, due to a miracle which healed him of a skin disease, that the God of the Israelites was the ONLY God in all the earth.
       2 Kings 5:15

       Through God’s miracle of dwelling among the Israelites beginning at Mount Sinai, it was reaffirmed that He is the YHWH, their God who brought them out of Egypt.
       Exodus 29: 45, 46

       Upon entering the promised land, the Israelites believed in Joshua as they believed in Moses through God’s miracle at the Jordan crossing.
       Joshua 3:7, 13; 4:14

       And on and on and on …

       Reply
       • yourphariseefriend says:

         June 25, 2015 at 7:44 pm

         David I was responding to Eric’s point that accuses me of favoring one miracle over another – and my response was that Moses’ special status – above that of other prophets leans on Exodus 19:9. The miracles also play a role in this matter – as is obvious from Deuteronomy 34:10-12, but this has nothing to do with Eric’s argument that one miracles is somehow superior to another – it has to do with the credibility of the miracle. And I acknowledge that miracles confirm the status of a prophet WITHIN the context of the Law of Moses – now that the Law of Moses is here.

         Reply
     • eric krakofsky says:

       June 28, 2015 at 7:26 pm

       Ypfriend, you didn’t really address the main points I put down. Would God give a ‘deceiver’ a right to resurrection; bringing others back to life ? He clearly showed in OT that no-one except His servant was given that privilege. You focused mainly on that conclusion ” It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it ”

       To affirm the status of a prophet is not based on the amount of people witnessing a miracle. There could be thousands also witnessing a deceiving miracle so that is not proving the credibility of a prophet either. I am not having anything against miracle on Sinai . I mentioned it it while discussing the bases of credibility.

       Reply
       • yourphariseefriend says:

         June 28, 2015 at 11:23 pm

         Eric You ask if God would allow a deceiver to preform a miracle – and the answer is YES! – And God says so Himself – he says that the false prophet brings about a sign and a wonder in order to test us if we love God – Deuteronomy 13:4(5)

         Reply
         • Eliyah Lion says:

           June 28, 2015 at 11:37 pm

           Yisroel you deformed the ruah of the Torah. False miracles are there denounced and warming against them are made especially if they teach against the Torah and entice to follow other gods.

           But here the Resurrection of Lazarus 4 days in the tomb is not an illusion and YHWH is not a deceiver when the Messiah rose him from the dead. Plus the Messiah did teach to follow other gods but only the Father in the Heavens YHWH.

           But let us set this aside and ask us about you observing Torah. If you accuse the Christian of idolatry and their leaders teach about idolatry why don’t you wage war against them??

           6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

           Are you going to stone people like the Taliban??
         • yourphariseefriend says:

           June 28, 2015 at 11:51 pm

           Eliyahu Where does the Torah say anything about illusions? The Torah says that God is testing us – if Jesus would be encouraging worship of God than his followers wouldn’t try to convert worshipers of God. You ask why I don’t stone missionaries? The law only applies when Israel is in its land and the Temple is standing.
         • Dina says:

           June 29, 2015 at 12:10 am

           Beside for the fact that the law only applies in the Land when the Temple is standing, it only applies to other Jews. Christians and the Taliban are not our brother, son, wife, or friend. Oh, by the way–the Taliban are not guilty of idol worship. They are guilty of murder and other horrible offenses and they, together with their ideological brothers ISIS and Hamas and other terror groups, are the most evil of human beings.
         • Eliyah Lion says:

           June 29, 2015 at 12:18 am

           Dear Yisroel, you said: ”if Jesus would be encouraging worship of God than his followers wouldn’t try to convert worshipers of God. You ask why I don’t stone missionaries? The law only applies when Israel is in its land and the Temple is standing.”

           1) I never saw any Orthodox Christian doing missionary works for we Yehudim, you must then talking about the pseudo-Christian protestant sect to whom I have apprehensions… For that I can understand you as a brother.

           2)Yahushuo said it himself I did not come for the just but the sinners… Case closed!

           3)When I defend Christians I defend the true ones the ones loved by the One Elohim against the lies and persecutions they constantly have received by their fellow so-called Christian by fanatic Jews or by Muslim Islamic …

           Also when I defend my fellow brothers Yehudim and Israel I do it against the dominant culture against them. Against my own family that do not understand why I do Shabat?

           4)Contrary to what you said the Law is not suspended when the Temple is not standing. Moseh stoned without any Temple. My question why in Israel then there is no stoning? And if it was… don’t you think that all the nations will accuse you and make them march against you? You will say Hashem has commanded so… Very dangerous interpretation coming from Levites when our father Yaakov warned us against you guys:

           5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers;
           Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
           6 Let not my soul enter their council;
           Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
           For in their anger they slew a man,
           And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
           7 Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
           And their wrath, for it is cruel!
           I will divide them in Jacob… (Genesis 49)

           I prefer the Master Rabbi Teaching who says: let him being without any sin cast the first stone… Ameen!!
         • yourphariseefriend says:

           June 29, 2015 at 9:23 am

           Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple
         • Eliyah Lion says:

           June 29, 2015 at 12:31 am

           Dina you differ then from Yisroel view. According to your sect Christian are worst than all the human beings for they are accused of idol worship of a man. Compared to the Taliban may be you should unite with them and kill all the Christians and the Western Civilization…

           Your sect Yisroel is very very dangerous the only thing separating you from the Taliban and all Islamist is your weak number which would have been dangerous and a return to the stone age with your stoning and animal sacrifice and your literal and carnal view of the spiritual things… Wow I taught we Yehudim were intelligent but with the wrong sect we can become worst than our enemies… Amazing!

           Baruch HaShem Adonai for Yahushuo the Messiah of Israel who taught us the real interpretation of the true Torah!!
         • Sharbano says:

           June 29, 2015 at 2:26 am

           There you go again with “your sect”. By the way what is the count of Your Sect. No doubt a sect of “ONE”, you and only you.

           How can you say your messiah taught the real Torah when he said so little. It is Paul, a Roman, who did all the teaching. Or is it that you are relying on Stephen’s interpretation. A person you have YET to explain regarding his errors and goes against the foundation of your religion. Why do you hide in fear of the tough questions.
         • Sharbano says:

           June 29, 2015 at 7:07 am

           Why do you attack G-d so vehemently. It was G-d who instituted all the laws of Torah and YOU have the audacity to call it “carnal”. Furthermore you have no relevant understanding of the “how” of Torah application of its laws.
           Are you really holding up “Western Civilization” as a model. It is wholly corrupt and immoral, as the recent ruling of Toevah marriage. A great many Xtians have no issue with it. It is actually Because of Xtianity that it has come to pass.
         • Dina says:

           June 29, 2015 at 9:51 am

           Sharbano, Christians have been at the forefront of the opposition to legalizing homosexual marriage. It is secular liberal Leftism, not Christianity, that is responsible. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews are on the secular liberal Left, not with us.

           To say that Christians don’t care is simply not true. I read the conservative news every day (such as National Review Online), and they are very distressed by the Supreme Court Ruling.
         • Sharbano says:

           June 29, 2015 at 10:09 am

           Of course there are those who will probably continue to oppose it, But, there seems to be a great many who are not voicing Any opposition and will say it’s no big deal. I would say it is “Xtian thinking” that has led us to this point. They will ALL speak of loving the sin and not the sinner. The homosexual community has embraced that “love” and it is That basis for their pursuing agenda, “if two love each other”. I believe it really came to a head with the Westboro church protests and their language that virtually All Xtianity decided to oppose THEM and as a result very few spoke anymore of the “sin”. It’s all been loving the person. Even the religious Glenn Beck has joined with that community. I would say once you have a religion that dispels any notion of the Laws of G-d and it’s on the individual to make the decision you will have a generation of tolerance with the next generation embracing. We have seen each generation tolerating more and more. An analysis of This makes it easy to see the next step in progression.
         • Dina says:

           June 29, 2015 at 8:45 am

           Lion, you are by far the most hateful person I have ever had the misfortune to meet. Do you actually believe all the venom that you spew, or are you just angry and saying crazy things in your anger?
         • eric krakofsky says:

           June 29, 2015 at 11:35 am

           ypfriend, I didn’t ask just about ANY miracle. I asked about resurrection! Power over death and life that only God himself is in charge of. And if He ever gave it to somebody EXCEPT – His close servants!
         • yourphariseefriend says:

           June 29, 2015 at 12:41 pm

           Eric The Torah makes no such distinction – the Torah just says that God is testing you – God can do anything – a resurrection is no more difficult for God than stopping the sun or making the grass grow.
         • eric krakofsky says:

           June 29, 2015 at 7:57 pm

           Ypfriend. The answer is not too satisfying. There is a difference between deceiving miracle and ‘messing up ‘ with forces; death and life or changing the moon course or the sun route or intensity of light of the stars. There are some things that only God is in charge of. Even Egyptian magicians couldn’t change what God commanded; they couldn’t change days of darkness back into day light, they couldn’t resurrect Faro’s firstborn. God doesn’t allow just anything.
           If you don’t make a line to what is of God’s what not; then you have no base to measure the authority that is behind a miracle. Then anything can be just testing, deceiving that doesn’t suit us, and anything we want or suits us we would say its from God. God’s authority over granting power over life and death is confirmed starting in Genesis, resurrection by authority of God in Isaiah 25;8 and Daniel 12 and no ‘deceptive creature’ can ‘mess up’ with it. He is the only one mentioned as the authority of resurrection for a certain purpose. . Resurrection is mentioned as a result of our redemption not a sign of any deception.
         • Dina says:

           July 1, 2015 at 12:17 pm

           Eric, you have so convinced yourself that only a righteous man can perform a resurrection that you fail to take into account that Deuteronomy 13 does not delineate any specific type of miracle.

           Both Deuteronomy 18 and 13 teach that in order for a prophet to be accepted, not only must his sign materialize, but more importantly, he must not contradict Torah or introduce a new type of worship.

           Deuteronomy 13 does not come with a disclaimer attached that says: if someone comes along and performs a resurrection, then by golly, you must listen to him no matter what he says, because the miracle itself proves he is from God.

           You wrote that only God messes with the forces of life and death, but I beg to differ. Humans have a lot of power over life and death. Humans partner with God in bringing life into the world, and humans have the capability of taking life. With modern medicine, humans can bring people back from the brink of death in ways that are surely miraculous. That’s pretty powerful. But on the supernatural level, the witch of Endor raised the spirit of Samuel. She was a witch–not exactly a Godly individual (1 Samuel 28).

           Jesus expected his generation to accept him BEFORE the supposed miracle of his resurrection. He constantly berated the Pharisees for not accepting him based on his previous miracles although he CONTRADICTED TORAH and INTRODUCED A NEW TYPE OF WORSHIP. According to your book, he angrily and arrogantly agrees to give them the sign of the resurrection, but then HE FAILS TO FULFILL IT by not appearing to them. You defended this by saying that they were so faithless they wouldn’t have believed him anyway. First, your book does not give a reason for this failure. Second, their lack of faith is irrelevant. If you make a promise, you keep it, period, end of story. You can’t blame the Pharisees for something they might have done anyway if you never gave them the chance to prove themselves. How is that just?

           But at the end of the day, the sign ONLY MATTERS if the giver of the sign is aligned with Scripture. Jesus contradicted Scripture by abolishing the kosher laws and declaring himself the lord of the Sabbath (among other things); furthermore, he announced a new type of worship by making himself the mediator between man and God (“For no one comes to the Father but by me”). Therefore, according to Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 the Pharisees MUST REJECT him as a false prophet.
         • eric krakofsky says:

           July 1, 2015 at 2:05 pm

           Dina, As ferering to “messing with the forces of life and death” I didn’t mean;humans partner with God in bringing life into the world, and I didn’t mean doctors bringing people back from the brink of death with their modern medical equippment, but I meant resurrection. jesus bringing Lazarus to life ater 4 days of the body being in the grave and already decaying. Resurrection of jesus after after his body being completely disformed by the death he went through.

           I You wrote that in 2 Samuel 28 the witch of Endor raised the spirit of Samuel.
           But she didn’t bring Samuel’s body back to life so that he would be back to present on earth in his bodily form. She was not able to save Saul’s life after he heard he would die. Only God’s servants Elijay and Elisha could perform that miracle and only on whom God allowed. They couldn’t even make themselves back to life.

           You bring against jesus that “He constantly berated the Pharisees for not accepting him based on his previous miracles ” The miracles he did were the miracles proving he is the Messiah. spoken in isaiah . Messianic miracles were; the oppening the eyes of the blind, further ; ” the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, And the tongue of the dumb sing.” Nobody was able to open the eyes of the blind from birth so far. jesus was casting out evil spirits that made then death, speechless, crazy, etc freeing man to serve God and he was accused for that as doing it in authority of devil’s ( evil) power. You do not cast evil spirits if you belong to the same one as one same kingdom doesn’t fight against each other own. Jesus made it clear Matthew 12;24-26. Your spirit has to be stronger then the evil to do that and that is from God’s. Matthew 12;29
           Healing and casting out a dumb demon- is the miracle only the messiah could perform. The Pharisees recognized this as a messianic miracle, this is why they asked could this be the son of David.
           Even evil spirits knew who Jesus was ; God’s son ; Mark 1;23

           Also God shows that even reliabe miracles like His before the whole nation , miracles that outcasted any other miracles made by magicians do not make people trust Him, and make ther go their own way, so no fifference with jesus’.
           Num. 14:11 Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? Vs.22 “because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice.”

           Jesus didn’t do miracles for show but to point to his Messianic authority and make people look for spiritual needs; to look for the food that endures to eternal life ( which is faith in God) instead of coming to him because of being given food
           John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

           The most important you have a wrong perception about what it meant ‘giving a sign of Jonah” It was not about coming to a ceratain group of doubting Pharisees face to face. They were not given a chance??? As your rabbi said that miracle would STILL mean nothing even if if happened. I am sure Jesus knew that too.
           It was an event that was to happen and happened and anybody who wanted to know had a chance to come to the grave and see. I do not believe Pharisees were ‘deprived ‘ of that information. They all knew where he was laid they all knew he said he would be alive after 3 days so they put the guards. Guards were the witness, terrified, shocked witnessing the angels rolling off the stone. They went back to the priests and said what happened . And what reason did the Pharisees have in bribing the guards and disform the truth we read in Matthew 28;13? Answer yourself. If I was to build my faith on that lie , I have a better option.

           To your argument against jesus mediator between man and God . He is a mediator as a hight priest who comes before God with his blood shed for us. The same way like the High priest in OT who was the only one able to come into a very presence of God ( not without a shed blood ) to intercede for people’s sin. God didn’t need that blood for the sake of godly ritual, but a symbol of price paid for peoples sins, price that cost someone his life. ( By the way you never ansered my questions about reasons for blood in the temple..)
           Jeremiah 30;21 said the Messiah ( Israel’s ruler) will be the one able to come that CLOSE to God unlike anybody else.

           According to Isaiah the Messiah will be in change of everything, so if God gives him authority over Sabbath, I do not have a problem with that. Also Jesus is not changing the law of sabbath.
           According to Deut 13 and 18 the false prophet is put to death which is not meant to be fallow by resurrection which is back to life.. Death of false prophet was death.
         • Sharbano says:

           July 1, 2015 at 3:06 pm

           If you’re going to use a reference from Isaiah why not take the entire section into account. If you are using ch.35 then J’sus certainly did Not fulfill what Isaiah wrote. This is the deceptive nature of Xtianity by taking a partial text and applying that, instead of using the whole. Do you Really believe that the Pharisees would have attributed Isaiah to what’s written here. And Remember, Mark was written nearly a generation After this supposedly occurred.

           It is interesting that the resurrection story has differing accounts depending on which book is read. Of course, this goes with many accounts in the four gospels.

           It is well known that the sacrifices for sin were not for any intentional sin. If one Intentionally sinned there was no venue of sacrifice. Now, if the sacrifice of this J’sus is supposed to correlate to the temple then How can “his” blood do any good for people with intentional sins. Xtianity wants to say that “his” atonement is a pattern from Korbanot but there isn’t that avenue for those. Another aspect of Korbanot is sin offerings for individuals were female animals. Apparently, according to Xtianity, we should have a female messiah.
         • Dina says:

           July 2, 2015 at 2:16 pm

           Eric, there are a lot of problems I would like to address and will hopefully get back to you on this soon.
         • eric krakofsky says:

           July 2, 2015 at 11:28 pm

           Dina, taking a break for the weekend so no rush
         • Dina says:

           July 8, 2015 at 1:17 am

           Eric, I didn’t reply to this comment yet, but I just replied to many others that address the same subject, and Jim posted a couple of times on the lack of credibility of the stories you cited here from Christian scripture, so I’ll just respond to this:

           “According to Isaiah the Messiah will be in change of everything, so if God gives him authority over Sabbath, I do not have a problem with that.”

           Where does Isaiah say the Messiah will be in charge of everything? I’m not saying he doesn’t; I just don’t remember reading that, so I would appreciate the reference.

           God doesn’t give humans the authority to do anything they want. He set up the rules in Deuteronomy. No human can contradict the Law of Moses. What does Lord of the Sabbath mean anyway? God gave the Sabbath to the entire people of Israel as an eternal sign; someone can’t come along and claim it all for himself (Exodus 31:17).
         • yourphariseefriend says:

           July 1, 2015 at 2:58 pm

           Eric Again – you impose your own “logic” on the word of God. The Scripture says that God is performing the miracle to test us – and the standard that we are to use to distinguish the true prophet from the fraud is NOT the nature of the miracle – but if the prophet is or is not encouraging worship of the God we know – that is THE message of this passage in Deuteronomy
         • eric krakofsky says:

           July 2, 2015 at 11:38 pm

           ypfriend, and such a prophet according to Deut deserves death not resurrection unlike Jesus. So whose testimony is more credible ? God’s or yours? If God has a reason to bring him back to life then jesus is not contradicting Torah. As a false prophet he should have remained in the grave. Second, jesus was not performing miracle of resurrection on himself and by himself while being dead. It is God, not any other false prophet doing that.
         • yourphariseefriend says:

           July 3, 2015 at 2:44 am

           Eric You keep on missing the point – the verse says that it is God who is doing the testing – not the false prophet
         • eric krakofsky says:

           July 7, 2015 at 12:11 am

           “Eric You keep on missing the point – the verse says that it is God who is doing the testing – not the false prophet”

           When God is talking about testing in Deut 13;6 He is using a false prophet who says; lets follow other gods that you don’t know..(….) And that prophet shall be put to death.”
           First of all Jesus’ call is a call to repentance and not the call for serving other gods.
           Second; God clearly says that testing is not a ‘self happening event’ without a false dreamer or prophet, and if their false call or statements or knowledge was used by God to test others, God would still prove their falsehood by their judgement they deserve ; He said ‘ they shall be put to death.” Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION! Resurrection is the sign that we would recognize between the righteous one and the false one.
           God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line. No falsehood was ever to be followed by resurrection. God was never raising any ‘bad people’ back to life to ‘do the testing’. Not a single event in OT.
         • Sharbano says:

           July 7, 2015 at 6:59 am

           I’d say Jim HAS confirmed J’sus is guilty of bring gods you have not known to the forefront. He STOLE the whole purpose of Pesach and made it about him.
           Who can say the resurrection is a valid sign. Even the books do not agree on the details which brings suspicion to the event. Add to that only a “select” few were even privy to this information. That is why the Sinai event is held as the standard for all others that come to pass. Every cult or religion has the same uncorroborated events that only They know about. By this standard the Hari Krishna would be a more authentic belief. Their claim is greater.
         • eric krakofsky says:

           July 7, 2015 at 7:13 pm

           Sharbano, Every gospel has different focus. One focuses on one type of details , the other on the other and they all complete each other. One emphasizes one event over the other.
           One tells you how the stone was rolled away, the other shows you resurrected Jesus’ encounter with the disciples, the other speaks about first visitors to the tomb, and then the other emphasizes encounter with the angels passing on the message to the worrying people.
         • Dina says:

           July 7, 2015 at 11:35 pm

           “Every gospel has different focus. One focuses on one type of details etc.”

           Eric, the gospels don’t complement each other, they contradict each other on fundamental points such as what day it happened, what time of day it happened, how may days and nights he was in the tomb, who saw him first, and so on and so forth. It’s impossible for all versions of the story to have occurred exactly as described.
         • eric krakofsky says:

           July 8, 2015 at 11:50 pm

           you were unable to understand when I explained what was obvious. You saw contradiction no matter what. so I do not go back to that, it is useless!
         • yourphariseefriend says:

           July 7, 2015 at 8:58 am

           Eric You are twisting God’s word – the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. The standard that the people are to use is to see if the prophet is encouraging a worship that they did not know. If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere.
         • Dina says:

           July 8, 2015 at 12:46 am

           “First of all Jesus’ call is a call to repentance and not the call for serving other gods.”

           Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him. And if you don’t believe in him you eternally damned. No other Hebrew prophet EVER said such things. This is a brand new idea in worshiping God–that the only way to Him is through a human being. Deuteronomy 4 teaches us that we are to worship God ONLY according the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. And we are to transmit this knowledge to our children.

           If all Jesus did was call others to repentance we would have no problem with him.

           “Second; God clearly says that testing is not a ‘self happening event’ without a false dreamer or prophet etc.”

           Where does God clearly say that? As far as I can see, God does not specify any particular kind of event or exclude any particular kind of event.

           “Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION!”

           Death was not the confirmation that the prophet was false. The confirmation was the false teaching. God required us to put the false prophet to death, but that could only apply during a time when we had the power to do so. Under Roman rule, the Jews did not have the power to apply the death penalty.

           “God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.”

           Where does the Hebrew Bible say that? Where is there a disclaimer that says, “But if the prophet is raised back to life, then do anything he says! Even if he says to worship idols!”?

           You made up the baseline, Eric, not God.
         • eric krakofsky says:

           July 9, 2015 at 1:07 am

           Dina, “Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him.”
           Jesus is called ‘word of God’ that is why he is the way the truth and the light the same way like God’s word is your guidance. He fulfills God’;s word, He lives by it.
           He also comes in the presence of God as High priest on our behalf . Hebrew 9.
           ” And if you don’t believe in him you eternally damned.” Another words if you do not believe what God says you are not God’s.

           I said “Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION!”

           you said ; “Death was not the confirmation that the prophet was false. The confirmation was the false teaching. ”
           But the prophet with false teaching is not promised to rise back to life! You are going around with that. If jesus is rewarded with eternal life with God then he is not the false prophet.

           “God required us to put the false prophet to death, but that could only apply during a time when we had the power to do so. Under Roman rule, the Jews did not have the power to apply the death penalty.” What are you talking about??? According to your rabbi Jesus is sentenced to death thanks to ‘ highly qualified pharisiess.’ although executors were Romans. What does it change?

           “God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.” I made the line??
           The baseline is set in Daniel 12;2 righteous are not risen back to life with God , but raise to condemnation.
         • Sharbano says:

           July 9, 2015 at 8:08 am

           That’s a really big issue. Xtians come to tell US that even though we believe fully in G-d, follow the Mitzvot, as He required, are faithful to Him, YET, if we don’t believe in this “man-god” we are eternally damned? How is this NOT against Torah, whether J’sus fulfilled Torah, notwithstanding.

           That is another occasion that calls into question the veracity of the Xtian text. “Highly qualified pharisees” were Not in position to sentence anyone. The problem with SO many Xtians is they have NO other knowledge than what is in their texts. Because of THIS they are unable to discern what is truth and what is false. I found this to be evident when they are wholly unaware that the Xtian text says Gentiles are to keep the Noachide commandments. So many had no idea what that even meant. You’re making that up, is the typical reply by Xtians on so many similar points.
         • Dina says:

           July 9, 2015 at 3:49 pm

           Hi Eric,

           I’m going to respond to a bunch of your comments in one comment. Having them all in one place is easier, I think.

           I wrote that there is no excuse for Jesus not keeping his word to the Pharisees about the sign of his resurrection. You wrote that the resurrection was not for show, but all who wanted could come and see. This is not what your gospels record. They record that word of the resurrection spread 50 days after the supposed event, so what is the point of a sign that you can’t see, that you have to rely on hearsay? That’s not a sign!

           Furthermore, you wrote in a later comment that the resurrection confirms that the prophet is true. The resurrection is the sign that proves Jesus is who he said he is. You said that all other miracles don’t necessarily prove a prophet is true, but resurrection is the exception for sure. Yet in the gospels, the Pharisees were expected to believe in Jesus before he was resurrected, when he was supposedly performing other miracles. You are trying to have it both ways.

           And you still have not proved that Jesus was justified in not fulfilling his sign to the Pharisees. He even says they don’t deserve it, and they’re evil, and so on, but he says he will give them a sign anyway. Therefore, all your excuses for him fall flat.

           “Dina, popularity and appreciation for Jesus is not to be read from history. It is described in the gospels and other epistles.”

           It’s not to be read from history? Says who? The problem for Christians is that Jesus lived during a time when educated men were recording history. Two Jews–neither of them Pharisees–and some Roman historians of the time period (such Tacitus) wrote volumes of contemporary history. If Jesus were as popular and famous as the gospels described, it’s inconceivable that no one would have mentioned him. As it is, what references there are have been proven to be later Christian interpolations.

           The problem for Christians, then, is that the historical record not only does not support, but also in some cases directly contradicts, the events of the gospels. We know from the historical record, for example, that the real Pontius Pilate bore no resemblance to the character in the gospels. Furthermore, we know from the historical record that the ugly caricature of Pharisees painted in the gospels had nothing to do with the real, live ones who lived at that time.

           David (the one on this blog who calls us Jew men) mocked the idea that the Pharisees were tolerant and sneered that instead of Independence Day we should have Pharisee Day. But he was closer to the truth than he realized, as the Pharisees did apply principles of democracy (read about that here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees).

           You can read more about the real, historical Pharisees here: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Pharisees

           “Dina, I don’t know what you mean by here; to describe differences between Jesus’s condemnation of the Pharisees and the rebukes of the Hebrew prophets???”

           I wrote that because you didn’t respond to my comment that describes the differences between Jesus’s condemnation of the Pharisees and the rebukes of the prophets. Originally, you defended Jesus’s vitriol, saying it was no different from the criticisms of the Hebrew prophets. I showed you the differences here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/daniel-7-and-acceptance-of-scripture-an-open-letter-to-bru/#comment-20380

           “it is shaky to you, not to us.”

           Eric, both Jim and I brought you reasons backed by logic and history of why these stories are so shaky. To say that “it is shaky to you, not to us” is not a refutation. It is an admission that you take these stories on faith because they cannot be supported on other grounds.

           “you were unable to understand when I explained what was obvious. You saw contradiction no matter what. so I do not go back to that, it is useless!”

           And I say, Eric, that you refuse to see the contradictions.

           The way we are taught to read the Bible is the very opposite. As far back as the 3rd grade, I remember being encouraged to look for the contradictions, to find questions. We’re not afraid to face them. Truth has nothing to fear.

           “Dina, “Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him.”
           Jesus is called ‘word of God’ that is why he is the way the truth and the light the same way like God’s word is your guidance. He fulfills God’;s word, He lives by it.”

           Eric, you keep changing the argument. If Jesus was a call to repentance, we would have no problem with it. If he were a call to believe in the word of God, we already believe in the word of God–the Torah–so we would also have no problem with that. A person cannot be the word. A lot of people “fulfill God’s word” and “live by it”–that doesn’t make them the way to God. A person can be a prophet, a messenger, of God–nothing more, nothing less.

           For a person to say that he is the word of God and therefore he is the way to God is a brand new way of worshiping God, not taught at Sinai as per Deuteronomy 4, and thus must be rejected. Can you reconcile Deuteronomy 4 with this new way of worshiping God, unknown to our fathers?

           “But the prophet with false teaching is not promised to rise back to life! You are going around with that. If jesus is rewarded with eternal life with God then he is not the false prophet.”

           There isn’t any way for me to know that Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, was rewarded with eternal life. You have to take that on faith. For all anyone knows, he is roasting in hell.

           “According to your rabbi Jesus is sentenced to death thanks to ‘ highly qualified pharisiess.’ although executors were Romans. What does it change?”

           This is another example where the historical record contradicts the gospel story. According to Jewish law, Jesus did nothing to deserve the death penalty. Death penalty cases were tried according to a set of rules that were not followed in the gospels (for example, the trial could take place only during the day, confession of crime was not acceptable evidence, and so on). Christians want to have it both ways: legalistic Pharisees and lawless Pharisees. (This pattern was repeated throughout history: Jews were hated for being religious and for being secular, for being capitalist and for being communist, for being rich and for being poor, for being powerful and for being helpless.)

           This story simply could not have happened the way the gospels portray it.

           ““God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.” I made the line??
           The baseline is set in Daniel 12;2 righteous are not risen back to life with God , but raise to condemnation.”

           Deuteronomy 13 nowhere gives an exception for any type of miracle. You turned to an entirely different text that is talking about an entirely different subject to support your own criteria. If a prophet teaches any kind of worship that is different from what we were taught at Sinai, he is a false prophet and there is nothing more to discuss, no exceptions for any kind of miracle. That is the lesson of Deuteronomy 4 and 13.

           “All details predicted. No surprise, only to those who don’t want to know God.”

           Why do you assume that we don’t want to know God? How can you know what is in our hearts? Do you think that only true Christians can have a real, deep, personal relationship with God? You need to get out and meet some religious Jews.
         • Sharbano says:

           July 9, 2015 at 5:50 pm

           {And I say, Eric, that you refuse to see the contradictions.}

           I’m unsure if it is in the Xtian text, but I have heard that a person should not listen to those who sew doubt about their beliefs. Of course this is most certainly and emphatically a very convenient method to keep their faith. Many times in a debate I have noticed they will listen partially, avoiding direct challenges, and thus they can fulfill this “Xtian mitzvah”, thereby eliminating any chance of loss of faith. What we have seen here, and what I’ve seen elsewhere bears this out.
       • Eliyah Lion says:

         July 3, 2015 at 12:02 am

         Eric your posts are inspiring. May the Holy One bless you!!

         Reply
         • Eliyah Lion says:

           July 3, 2015 at 8:06 am

           Yisroel the Resurrection is a game changer. Eric points are valid. The consequence of a false prophet is death no Resurrection. The Resurrection is the validation of Yahushuo as the Eternal Messiah the Dabar in the Flesh.

           Paul conversion is a consequence of that Resurrection.

           The Passover from Death to Life, from Bondage to Freedom is the Resurrection. Christianity is the celebration of the Resurrection.
           Judaism is still in the waiting having missed the New Creation

           But the sign of Yonas will be available soon when you will witness this:

           Revelation 11 New King James Version (NKJV)
           The Two Witnesses

           11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,[a] saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

           4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God[b] of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
           The Witnesses Killed

           7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
           The Witnesses Resurrected

           11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

           14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
           Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

           15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

           “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
           The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
           Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
           18
           The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
           And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
           And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
           And those who fear Your name, small and great,
           And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

           19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11)
3. Concerned Reader says:

   June 24, 2015 at 9:10 pm

   Eric, to go along with what Jim said, it is not meant by anyone to be unkind to say that a miracle doesn’t automatically testify to the truth of a position. Everyone claims miracles. Christians say Jesus rose from death, Muslims say that Muhammad wrote the Qur’an even though he was illiterate. Even the New Testament tells you not to trust in miracles because they can’t always be trusted.

   We know that a few of the miracles that Moses himself performed were replicated by Pharaoh’s magicians, that wouldn’t grant legitimacy to them. That means simply that a miracle doesn’t serve as a validation. If you notice, when the Hebrews doubt Moses’ leadership relatively regularly, he presses on, continues to lead them in spite of their objections, continues to care despite their obstinacy.

   Moses himself suspects and anticipates doubt, (as he himself testifies, in Exodus 4:1) “What if they do not believe in me?” Very few people realize that Moses himself wasn’t unsympathetic to the doubters.

   Jesus by contrast gets very very upset when people doubt his claims. He gets very inflammatory. When he first tells the disciples he needs to die, Peter, his number one student says “heaven forbid master that you should die.” What a godly thing for Peter to say to his rabbi. How does Jesus respond to an act of compassion? Mathew 16:23 “Get behind me Satan!” Even if it were G-D’s plan for Jesus to die, at the time, his students didn’t even know, nor could they be expected to know. Nobody should accept a claim until the pudding is brought to substantiate the claim.

   Reply
   • eric krakofsky says:

     June 29, 2015 at 11:37 am

     ypfriend, I meant in my last line; And if He ever gave it to somebody it was nobody else EXCEPT for – His close servants!

     Reply
4. Dina says:

   June 25, 2015 at 4:01 pm

   Following.

   Reply
5. Eliyah Lion says:

   June 25, 2015 at 11:04 pm

   I have asked many questions still no answers, specially this one who seems very disturbing for Yisroel and cie:

   Who did Moseh saw face to face? Who is this form of YHWH?

   “Hear now My words:
   If there is a prophet among you,
   I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
   I speak to him in a dream.
   7 Not so with My servant Moses;
   He is faithful in all My house.
   8 I speak with him face to face,
   Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
   And he sees the form of the Lord.
   Why then were you not afraid
   To speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12; NKJV)

   Reply
   • Dina says:

     June 25, 2015 at 11:28 pm

     Actually, I answered you on this one, but you did not respond; perhaps you did not see it. Concerned Reader answered you several times on this topic. Did you miss all of his answers?

     On the other hand, you have ignored our questions. One of the most recent ones: how do you translate Isaiah 38:13? And also, find a source in Tanach or the Talmud that says that Gentiles are dogs.

     If I were you, I would say that you are not answering because these questions are so disturbing to you.

     Reply
     • Dina says:

       June 25, 2015 at 11:33 pm

       I’m really, really interested in hearing the secret, deep meanings your ruach will give you on this particular verse (Isaiah 38:13).

       Can I guess? Will it be something like this?

       “I made [myself] until morning to dig, so it would break my bones; from day and night You shall finish me.”

       All the other translations are wrong, but this will be the secret and deep meaning from your ruach, no doubt.

       Reply
   • Concerned Reader says:

     June 25, 2015 at 11:35 pm

     Lion I answered you on this question multiple times. The form of G-d can be a prophetic vision as in Ezekiel, Daniel, and in Isaiah. It doesn’t imply at all that G-d is physical, or that he takes on the forms of anything in heaven, on earth, or the forms of the whole host of heaven which Israel IS FORBIDDEN TO PRAY TO (Deuteronomy 4:19.)

     Learn to read our responses to you MORE CAREFULLY, and then maybe we can have an honest dialogue. You keep asserting that no answers are given to this question. I have responded to this same question of yours 3 times now. Read the vision of G-d’s throne found in Ezekiel and in Isaiah, and notice carefully how the visions are different from each other in the details. ITS BECAUSE THEY ARE VISIONS IN THE PROPHET’s MIND’S EYE, NOT LITERAL BODIES OR PHYSICAL ENTITIES OR DESCRIPTION’s of G-d’s essence.

     G-d is completely beyond the caragories of the material world. I’m surprised that you (as a supposedly orthodox Christian) do not know that G-d is without body or form? http://www.catholic.com/tracts/god-has-no-body

     Reply
     • Concerned Reader says:

       June 25, 2015 at 11:42 pm

       Tatian the Syrian (author of the Diatessaron, the first known gospel harmony.)

       “Our God has NO INTRODUCTION IN TIME. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, NOT ATTENDING UPON MATRER, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is INVISIBLE, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).

       Reply
     • Eliyah Lion says:

       July 1, 2015 at 4:14 pm

       Con like always you bring substance to the debate. But that confirms that Moseh did not see the FATHER Eternal but the Messiah Eternal Elohei Israel who is the form of YHWH:

       Here is the Hebrew: פֶּה אֶל־פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר־בּוֹ וּמַרַאֶה וַלֹא בְחִידֹת וּתְמֻנַת יַהוָה יַבִּיט
       ”Mouth to mouth I will speak in(with) him and appearance(sight) not in mystery
       In a form of YHWH he will look …”

       And the link proves that the ancients (the wise) of the holy Orthodox Knesse never taught idolatry:

       Tatian the Syrian

       “Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).

       Athenagoras

       “I have sufficiently demonstrated that we are not atheists, since we acknowledge one God, unbegotten, eternal, invisible, incapable of being acted upon, incomprehensible, unbounded, who is known only by understanding and reason, who is encompassed by light and beauty and spirit and indescribable power, by whom all things, through his Word, have been produced and set in order and are kept in existence” (Plea for the Christians 10 [A.D. 177]).

       Irenaeus

       “Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God” (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).

       Clement of Alexandria

       “The first substance is everything which subsists by itself, as a stone is called a substance. The second is a substance capable of increase, as a plant grows and decays. The third is animated and sentient substance, as animal, horse. The fourth is animate, sentient, rational substance, as man. Wherefore each one of us is made as consisting of all, having an immaterial soul and a mind, which is the image of God” (Fragment from On Providence [A.D. 200]).

       “Being is in God. God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists. Being is that which wholly subsists. Nature is the truth of things, or the inner reality of them. According to others, it is the production of what has come to existence; and according to others, again, it is the providence of God, causing the being, and the manner of being, in the things which are produced” (ibid.).

       “What is God? ‘God,’ as the Lord says, ‘is a spirit.’ Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself” (ibid.).

       “No one can rightly express him wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form” (Miscellanies 5:12 [A.D. 208]).

       Origen

       “Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind” (Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [A.D. 225]).

       “John says in the gospel, ‘No one has at any time seen God,’ clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no nature to which God is visible, not as if he were indeed visible by nature, and merely escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature, but because he is by nature impossible to be seen” (ibid. 1:1:8).

       Athanasius

       “God, however, being without parts, is Father of the Son without division and without being acted upon. For neither is there an effluence from that which is incorporeal, nor is there anything flowering into him from without, as in the case of men. Being simple in nature, he is Father of one only Son” (Letter on the Council of Nicaea 11 [A.D. 350]).

       Didymus the Blind

       “God is simple and of an incomposite and spiritual nature, having neither ears nor organs of speech. A solitary essence and illimitable, he is composed of no numbers and parts” (The Holy Spirit 35 [A.D. 362]).

       Hilary of Poitiers

       “First it must be remembered that God is incorporeal. He does not consist of certain parts and distinct members, making up one body. For we read in the gospel that God is a spirit: invisible, therefore, and an eternal nature, immeasurable and self-sufficient. It is also written that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. For of these the members of a body consist, and of these the substance of God has no need. God, however, who is everywhere and in all things, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-doing, and all-assisting” (Commentary on the Psalms 129[130]:3 [A.D. 365]).

       Basil the Great

       “The operations of God are various, but his essence is simple” (Letters 234:1 [A.D. 367]).

       Ambrose of Milan

       “God is of a simple nature, not conjoined nor composite. Nothing can be added to him. He has in his nature only what is divine, filling up everything, never himself confused with anything, penetrating everything, never himself being penetrated, everywhere complete, and present at the same time in heaven, on earth, and in the farthest reaches of the sea, incomprehensible to the sight” (The Faith 1:16:106 [A.D. 379]).

       Evagrius of Pontus

       “To those who accuse us of a doctrine of three gods, let it be stated that we confess one God, not in number but in nature. For all that is said to be one numerically is not one absolutely, nor is it simple in nature. It is universally confessed, however, that God is simple and not composite” (Dogmatic Letter on the Trinity 8:2 [A.D. 381]).

       Gregory of Nyssa

       “But there is neither nor ever shall be such a dogma in the Church of God that would prove the simple and incomposite [God] to be not only manifold and variegated, but even constructed from opposites. The simplicity of the dogmas of the truth proposes God as he is” (Against Eunomius1:1:222 [A.D. 382]).

       John Chrysostom

       “[Paul] knows [God] in part. But he says, ‘in part,’ not because he knows God’s essence while something else of his essence he does not know; for God is simple. Rather, he says ‘in part’ because he knows that God exists, but what God is in his essence he does not know” (Against the Anomoians 1:5 [A.D. 386]).

       “Why does John say, ‘No one has ever seen God’ [John 1:18]? So that you might learn that he is speaking about the perfect comprehension of God and about the precise knowledge of him. For that all those incidents [where people saw a vision of God] were condescensions and that none of those persons saw the pure essence of God is clear enough from the differences of what each did see. For God is simple and non-composite and without shape; but they all saw different shapes” (ibid., 4:3).

       Augustine

       “In created and changeable things what is not said according to substance can only be said according to accident. . . . In God, however, certainly there is nothing that is said according to accident, because in him there is nothing that is changeable, but neither is everything that is said of him according to substance” (The Trinity 5:5:6 [A.D. 408]).

       Cyril of Alexandria

       “We are not by nature simple; but the divine nature, perfectly simple and incomposite, has in itself the abundance of all perfection and is in need of nothing” (Dialogues on the Trinity 1 [A.D. 420]).

       “The nature of the Godhead, which is simple and not composite, is never to be divided into two” (Treasury of the Holy Trinity 11 [A.D. 424]).

       “When the divine Scripture presents sayings about God and remarks on corporeal parts, do not let the mind of those hearing it harbor thoughts of tangible things, but from those tangible things as if from things said figuratively let it ascend to the beauty of things intellectual, and rather than figures and quantity and circumscriptions and shapes and everything else that pertains to bodies, let it think on God, although he is above all understanding. We were speaking of him in a human way, for there is no other way in which we could think about the things that are above us” (Commentary on the Psalms 11[12]:3 [A.D. 429]).

       Reply
       • Sharbano says:

         July 1, 2015 at 6:37 pm

         I find serious issues with any method of referring to G-d in separate “parts”, whether it is called Dabar or anything else. If one of His attributes is considered to have it Own existence how is that Not another god. So, in Xtian terms there are three, as one, segregated but the same. My physical body here is a unique entity and my words and thoughts are me. They are not separate entities. If Dabar is unique unto itself, then His “thoughts” also should be a unique entity. When He unleashes His wrath, that too, would be another entity. If He loves His firstborn son, then this too should be its own entity. We cannot stop at His Dabar and then say this is all the sum total of His entities. We can see how man envisions G-d with the mural that is in the Sistine chapel. From my perspective I had seen that image and never imagined that G-d was one of the two. When I first found that out I was literally Shocked, to the core. I could never imagine people would have that representation. I foolishly thought it might have been perhaps Abraham and Isaac, as if some reference to the Akeidah. It’s much more comfortable to imagine G-d as an “entity”, if even that is the proper term, of nothing but pure thought, pure will and nothing physical. If He has created a Universe with virtually an infinite amount of Galaxies and we are a mere speck in One of those galaxies how can it be that he is reduced to the stature of a man on a single planet, among a single solar system, among a single galaxy, among an infinite count of galaxies. We don’t even know what is Past those galaxies we see from this single planet. How arrogant of mankind to think he can see this G-d in its full glory. It’s much more acceptable to consider Him as so far elevated above that His “energy” would destroy the world if He made literal contact, since He holds the entire Universe together with His will. It is understandable that His immense Power is So Great, beyond any human comprehension, that it has to be transmitted down to us via an increasing number of filters. Imagine, for instance, that we cannot look directly at the sun, which is so miniscule compared to His Power and we should be able to look at His full Glory, which is infinite compared to the sun. It is beyond rational thought.

         Reply
       • David says:

         July 1, 2015 at 6:52 pm

         Hi Lion,

         You wrote:
         “… Moseh did not see the FATHER Eternal but the Messiah Eternal Elohei Israel who is the form of YHWH:”

         My commentary:
         Your many citations don’t actually support your claim that Moses “saw” the Messiah, nor that the Messiah is the “form” of the YHWH, nor that Moses did not behold the form (temunah) of the YHWH.

         Let’s go back to Exodus to the passage in question. The context is that after the incident of the golden calf, Moses makes a request of God that he wants to see His “glory.” God consents to show his glory also referred to as his “goodness” but explains that no one may see His face and live, Moses will only see his back. Obviously the language of body parts is figurative. The deeper meaning is that while Moses will behold (with the eyes, or spiritual eyes, meaning the heart, is not critical to know for our purposes here) of the glory of God like no other man had since; yet he will not partake of the most intimate nature of God as represented and symbolized by God’s face.

         Exodus 33:18 – 20, 23b
         18 Moses said, “Show me your glory, I pray.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you the name, ‘The YHWH’; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.” “…you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.”

         And, we see the concept repeated in Numbers that the relationship between Moses and God is more intimate than even that which God has among other prophets. The “form” (Hebrew Temunah) as used in numbers 12:8 occurse 10 in Hebrew Scriptures. We should not make the false assumption here that it is necessarily a “physical” form. The Hebrew Temunah is defined as follows:

         “something portioned (that is, fashioned) out, as a shape, that is, (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):—image, likeness, similitude.”

         Numbers 12:8
         With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form (temunah) of the YHWH. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?”

         The same Hebrew word “temunah” is used by the Psalmist describing how he will behold the face of the “YHWH” when he is resurrected. We know he is referring to the YHWH and NOT the Messiah, from verse one.

         Psalm
         17:1
         “Hear my just cause, O YHWH; attend to my cry…”
         17:15
         “As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness (temunah) when I awake.”

         And, obviously the same Hebrew word (temunah) is used in the passage of Deuteronomy 4, including Deuteronomy 4:15 among others. Less there be any doubt, it was indeed the YHWH and NOT the Messiah, as noted in Deuteronomy 4:12 who spoke to them out of the fire.

         Deuteronomy 4:12
         “Then the YHWH spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form (temunah)—only a voice.”

         Deuteronomy 4:15
         “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form (temunah) on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire”

         Reply
         • Eliyah Lion says:

           July 1, 2015 at 7:15 pm

           David that is your interpretation which I respect but if you think that the Infinite Pure Holy Essence of Eloah can be seen in a form you are mistaken. That is impossible!! Only through the Eternal Son Beloved can we see. For his face is the Sun of Righteousness the Resurrection and the Life through Him we see the Transcendent Light. To those who have been elected before the foundation of Time!!
   • Sharbano says:

     June 26, 2015 at 6:35 am

     Apparently no “metaphor” in your ruach?

     Reply
6. Eliyah Lion says:

   June 26, 2015 at 12:12 am

   You all failed to respond because the form of YHWH who Moseh saw was the Messiah Himself for Yahushuo is the Image of the Invisible Elohim. It is also the ”in OUR image of Genesis”

   ”Then Elohim said, “Let Us make Adam in Our image, according to Our likeness” (Genesis 1:26)

   ”So Elohim created man in His own image; in the image of Elohim He created him; male and female He created them.” (Genesis 1:27)

   These verses from the upstart of the Torah proves that Elohim a plural is One where the IN HIS OWN IMAGE is Elohim the Messiah where Adam comes from. It establishes that the IN OUR IMAGE is the prototype of the sons of Elohim

   ”15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”
   (Colossians 1)

   Reply
   • Concerned Reader says:

     June 26, 2015 at 5:19 am

     You are engaging in simple Eisogesis here Lion! No wonder you come to the conclusions you do about the Bible. You are only interested in putting Jesus into Tanakh verses where you already believe that he fits. You have no contextual reason to believe these verses are about Jesus, you just believe they are about him. Thank you for finally showing us your “method” of reading scripture for what it really is.

     If the only rebuttal to our scriptural citations that you can give is to say “you disagree with me, so you are just wrong,” then you have lost all ground on which to stand objectively in this dialogue. You can’t just say that a verse refers to Jesus because the NT says it does, that’s no different than a Muslim saying that the NT proves the Qu’ran because the Qu’ran says it does!

     If you are not interested in the answers you have recieved, fine! But don’t come here slandering people and their character expecting to score points for your position, when it rests solely on your personal beliefs.

     Reply
     • Eliyah Lion says:

       June 26, 2015 at 8:35 am

       Con your mind is confused and overwhelmed by the truth. You confound personal beliefs with the Revelation to men of Eloah. You judge with pride when you are not establish to judge. You think by your personal beliefs you can model the Revelation to your carnal mind. If it overwhelms you be humble like all Israel who cry to Mosheh to be their intermediary between the Elohim and them.

       Is it so difficult for you to understand Torah?

       What is obvious for a pure mind must be foggy and difficult for a carnal mind. You can stay with your present mind but a judgement day do not say that you were unaware that you bashed and denigrated the little children of Eloah, for you were instructed by me to reform your mind but you choose the way of the stones instead of the way of the Messiah.

       Bless be the humbles for the will inherit the Land!!

       Reply
       • Jim says:

         June 26, 2015 at 8:50 am

         Lion,

         Onces again: insistence that your view is correct is not an argument. Just labeling your opponents carnally minded and yourself spiritually minded does not make it so.

         It will not take an astute reader to note that you have once again changed the subject. You have set a standard for identifying a prophet which is contrary to that given by HaShem. Now that it has been shown that your position is contrary to Torah, you deflect. You return to looking for theophanies. That is not the topic.

         While you are so quick to point out what you feel no one has answered, let us remember that you asserted that the resurrection is terribly important. You have argued that it means he had the support of God. This is not the standard of the Torah, as you can see from what R’ Blumenthal has presented.

         I also remind you that you have not answered me regarding the resurrection, the point that you found so important but on which you now turn evasive. R’ Blumenthal kindly put my comments to you in one place, here:https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/reflections-on-an-alleged-resurrection-three-letters-from-jim/ . Or shall we take from your silence there and your deflection here that you have no answer, that the resurrection is of no significance whatsoever?

         Jim

         P.S. You still owe us a retraction regarding your claim that the Tanach calls non-Jews “dogs”.

         Reply
       • Sharbano says:

         June 26, 2015 at 8:59 am

         Many people when learning a new word have the tendency to use it whenever they can. This is what it looks like with your overuse of “carnal mind”. You throw it around like a person who boasts of their own superiority. I’ve seen many a person boast of themselves but never have I seen one who could compare to you. It is beyond all belief. In this boastful approach are you emulating your J’sus. Is THIS how mankind should act to one another. In all my many years never have I heard such pomposity as this,

         “for you were instructed by me to reform your mind but you ”

         I mean, Really, who do YOU think you are. You are not G-d. You are not even J’sus. You are nobody who comes here with delusions of grandeur with Only the desire to castigate people you feel are beneath you. What a sad state. And to quote YOUR J’sus, what did he say, “let him without sin cast the first stone”. I take it you are suggesting you are without sin. Then, to top it all off you have the unmitigated gall to suggest You are “humble” with the words:

         “Bless be the humbles for the will inherit the Land!!”

         Well, I suggest to you that given your statement you will never inherit the Land.

         Reply
       • Concerned Reader says:

         June 26, 2015 at 9:20 am

         Where in G-d’s name have I “bashed the little children?” I have not bashed you, unless bringing scripture counts as a bashing?

         Reply
       • Dina says:

         June 26, 2015 at 10:54 am

         Breathtaking argument! One is swept away by the pure logic, backed by crystal clear Scriptural citations. Who can fail to be persuaded? Who can stand in the face of such powerful reasoning?

         Reply
   • yourphariseefriend says:

     June 26, 2015 at 6:34 am

     Eliyahu How do you expect us to take you seriously – when you don’t take yourself seriously. In one sentence you tell us that you know Hebrew because you have Israeli relatives and in the next you tell us that modern Hebrew is not Biblical Hebrew. In one sentence you berate us for translating a word differently than some Christian scholars and then you go and translate a word differently than every scholar under the sun. Don’t expect anyone to take you more seriously than you take yourself. By the way – I understand that it is painful to be living a life of contradictions – the door to teshuva is always open.

     Reply
     • Eliyah Lion says:

       June 26, 2015 at 8:23 am

       Yisroel you understand with your limited human mind. What can I expect of you? Mosheh was your leader, he was an elohim in human flesh. An elohim to Pharaoh but also to all Israel. You revere him and you do well.

       Carnal minds understand carnally
       Wicked minds understand wickedly
       Pure minds understand purely
       Simple minds understand simply
       Human minds understand humanly
       Angelic minds understand angelically
       Holy minds understand the holy
       Messianic minds understand the Messiah
       Prophetic minds understand the Prophets
       Elohim minds understand divinely

       Choose your minds from the lower planes for to you the mysteries has not be unveiled. You can not expect a mouse to understand like a dolphin nor a monkey like a man. Nor a man like angel, nor a slave like a prince…

       Reply
       • Sharbano says:

         June 26, 2015 at 8:40 am

         I wonder EL, do you even know what elohim even means. Apparently Not since you phrase it as “elohim in human flesh”. Since G-d is called Elokim you assume the “word” means G-d. Far from it. Everything written regarding G-d speaks to His Attributes and NOT to His essence. To think that “words” can define such an essence is, in itself, a type of idolatry. How can mere words describe something that is infinite. Can you write the Number “infinity”. Can you describe infinity. This is how you and Xtianity try to turn G-d into something definable, with substance, with a finite existence, when it cannot be definable, is without substance and is infinite in all, in thought AND existence.

         Reply
       • Dina says:

         June 26, 2015 at 10:52 am

         “Yisroel you understand with your limited human mind. What can I expect of you?”

         And you, Lion, with what kind of mind do you understand? Your arrogance does beat all.

         Reply
   • Sharbano says:

     June 26, 2015 at 6:44 am

     You keep repeating yourself even After you’ve been answered. I gave the response from the Rambam on this matter regarding Tselem. One thing you fail to do in All cases is to look for the same word and it usage elsewhere. If you have questions THIS is the most appropriate method to use, and NOT just come up with an idea. And also, how is any of this based upon any ruach. You have simply parroted what every other Xtian has said for centuries. What you say is nothing new. All you have done is “dress it up” to make it sound “new and improved”.

     Reply
   • Dina says:

     June 26, 2015 at 10:51 am

     Lion, you freely accuse all of us of lying, but you are guilty of a blatant lie. We have in fact answered you on this–some of several times.

     I will repeat some of what I wrote because it is tiresome to keep repeating myself, especially to someone who has stuffed his fingers in his ears while chanting, “Nah, nah, nah.”

     Deuteronomy 4 repeatedly warns us that we are not to associate God with any form whatsoever. Throughout the Torah we are CLEARLY warned to worship God alone. God is CLEARLY described as being One and being alone; He is never CLEARLY described as a plural entity in communion with other persons in the godhead. (All your “proofs” are based on hints.)

     Therefore, even if your interpretations of theophanies in Scripture are accurate, meaning, even if God really did appear in human form in Scripture a thousand times, it is irrelevant to how we worship Him, because God Himself instructed us how to worship Him, and He forbade us from associating Him with any form or with any other entities (see Deuteronomy 4 again).

     In short, Deuteronomy 4 makes all your arguments about “Let us make man in our image” and Moshe seeing the form of Hashem completely irrelevant. Worthless. Moot. Pointless.

     We worship God alone. Period, end of story.

     Reply
7. Concerned Reader says:

   June 26, 2015 at 9:31 am

   Lion, I have shown using revelation chapter 13 how literally anyone can claim to be G-d, can be “resurrected” and can do miracles, and how NONE OF THESE THINGS ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN BOOK PROVES THAT A PERSON IS TELLING TRUTH FROM G-D,OR IS FIT TO BE SERVED.

   Reply
8. Concerned Reader says:

   June 26, 2015 at 9:33 am

   Yisroel you understand with your limited human mind. What can I expect of you?

   Lion, Are we to infer from this that your mind is not a limited human mind?

   Reply
9. Concerned Reader says:

   June 26, 2015 at 9:48 am

   BTW I’m not judging you lion, I have a different interpretation of scripture than you do.

   Reply
10. Eliyah Lion says:

    June 29, 2015 at 9:43 am

    Yisroel you said: ”Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple”

    1) Do you know what Orthodox Christian means?
    2) Do you think that your worship of heylel is intentional or even known to you?
    3) Do you know what was the Messiah mission on this earth?
    4) Do you who was the form of YHWH that Mosheh saw in Numbers?

    Yisroel you have been deluded for more than 2000 years and still hanging on to your carnal view of Scriptures. Only a purified mind can see truly!!

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      June 29, 2015 at 10:11 am

      4) Do you mean, in the form of a cloud. the same which guided the Israelites.

      Reply
    • Eliyah Lion says:

      June 29, 2015 at 10:51 am

      No in the form of YHWH like in Numbers 12:

      8 I speak with him face to face,
      Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
      And he sees the form of YHWH

      The form of YHWH is the Eternal Messiah the Dabar Elohim!!

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        June 29, 2015 at 10:58 am

        WHERE does it say “face to face”?

        Reply
      • Eliyah Lion says:

        June 29, 2015 at 11:36 am

        It is more intimate but you are right it is in Numbers 12 v.8:

        ” mouth to mouth…”

        here is the Hebrew: פֶּה אֶל־פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר־בּוֹ וּמַרַאֶה וַלֹא בְחִידֹת וּתְמֻנַת יַהוָה יַבִּיט

        ”Mouth to mouth I will speak in(with) him and appearance(sight) not in mystery
        In a form of YHWH he will look …”

        The NKJV was ok in the translation my translation conveys some nuances and more accuracies.

        Reply
11. Eliyah Lion says:

    July 1, 2015 at 3:35 pm

    Yisroel, Eric argumentation is very solid compared to yours which is highly sophistic in nature.

    How did Moseh made known Elohei Israel to Israel?
    How his credibility was established?

    What you accused Christian, Moseh did it to establish his authority to the People.
    Now the argument of Resurrection establishes that Yahushuo is the Messiah. Actually the power of his Resurrection even converted Saul the most zealous of Pharisee. It establishes a sufficient numbers of witnesses to conquer the world to the Messiah of Israel.

    The Prophet to come after Moseh is not Yahushuo for Yahushuo is the form of YHWH the Eternal Messiah Master of Space and Time, the Dabar (SON DAVID) in the Flesh. The one Messenger sent to Israel that All Israel most obey for it is written in Exodus 3 and many other passages of Holy Scriptures:

    2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

    4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

    And he said, “Here I am.”

    5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Elohei Abraham, Elohei Isaac, Elohei Yaakov for our 3 forefathers saw the Eternal Messiah who is NOT a mere man but Elohei Israel in the Flesh…

    Your rejected him for your carnal view did not want to submit to the Reality of Eloah. Your argumentation is based therefore on pride who begot your lies and deceits.

    Convert to real Judaism not your small sect who deformed Scriptures like Jeremiah predicted it. Turn to Elohei of our forefathers let go your false god heylel, be strong have courage to let go your lie. If not you will not reign with the Messiah in the world to come.

    Your sect has been preserved to become the footstool of the One Messiah of Israel!!

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      July 1, 2015 at 4:02 pm

      “our 3 forefathers saw the Eternal Messiah who is NOT a mere man but Elohei Israel in the Flesh…”

      Now that’s quite interesting. I wonder why the patriarchs never bothered to mention that they saw the messiah. Such a profound thing to see and NOT mention it to anyone. Wow.

      Reply
      • David says:

        July 1, 2015 at 4:16 pm

        Sharbano,

        I don’t share Lion’s conclusions but God never shared the fact that Moses beheld His “form” until his (Moses’) authority was challenged by Miriam and Aaron. Had his authority never been challenged it is likely that we may never have know of this interesting fact that Moses beheld the form of the YHWH.

        The YHWH was careful not to reveal His form to the Israelites as attested in Deuteronomy 4 so that those who recently left paganism and who were in fact still, as late as 40 years into the promised Land, grappling with the fact that their hearts were turned towards the gods of Egypt and in fact were in possession of such gods (Joshua 24 pertains)

        Never the less, Lion is mistaken in his conclusion that the 3 patriarchs witnessed the actual Messiah or the YHWH in form. That’s not to say that they didn’t “see his day” which is an entirely different meaning.

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          July 1, 2015 at 6:39 pm

          All that has to be said here, that is if you Believe G-d’s Own Words, that No One can look upon G-d and live. Mankind cannot behold such Energy. If we cannot look directly at the sun then how much more so G-d’s infinite energy.

          Reply
      • Eliyah Lion says:

        July 1, 2015 at 4:42 pm

        Sharbano the word Messiah came later in Scriptures. The Eternal Messenger(Messiah) Malakh(Messenger) the Dabar in the Flesh was seen by Abraham being accompanied by two angels although not as clearly than Moseh for Moseh was special an unique in his relation with the Dabar… for he had the mission to build a Nation!!

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          July 1, 2015 at 6:43 pm

          As one person aptly said, you are speaking Xtianese. You want to define angel into your own Xtianese. Abraham was visited by Angels, plain and simple. End of story!

          Reply
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 1, 2015 at 7:06 pm

            Sharbano did you read Genesis 18. Adonai speaks directly to Abraham and visited him with two angels. Here again it is the form of YHWH the Eternal Dabar in the Flesh Master of Time speaking:

            Genesis 18 New King James Version (NKJV)
            The Son of Promise

            18 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,[a] as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”

            (Note that Abraham does not say my lords but Adonai)

            They said, “Do as you have said.”

            6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

            9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”

            So he said, “Here, in the tent.”

            10 And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.”

            (Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing.[b] 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”

            13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”

            (Note that the Lord here is in Hebrew YHWH saying to Abraham, obviously the Eternal Dabar in the Flesh speaks for His Father YHWH)
          • Sharbano says:

            July 1, 2015 at 7:33 pm

            Sure! Change the subject once again. You are most certainly an expert in this. Since you are Unable to rebut you have to resort to other methods.
            Where does it “say” the Son of Promise
            First of all it says “three men”. Are YOU suggesting G-d is made of three men.
            Of course you omitted the answer that is clear in the next chapter.
            “The two ANGELS came to Sodom”.
            WOW! Your answer is found just a little later.
            AND in typical fashion for you, and how the Xtian text perverts Torah, you fail to recognize salient information.
            “The men turned from there and went to Sodom, while Abraham was still standing BEFORE HASHEM. And Abraham came forward and said…”
            WOW! These men left yet Abraham is still Before Hashem.
            This is the worst perversion of the words of Torah, where a person is led to believe G-d is in the form of THREE MEN.
        • Eliyah Lion says:

          July 1, 2015 at 8:13 pm

          Sharbano where did I say in the form of three men. I said one of the three is the form of YHWH the Messiah Eternal the Dabar in the Flesh. The other two are two angels. I said note the word Adonai when Abraham speaks and precisely continue his conversation with YHWH directly.

          Are you saying the ETERNAL speaks human? That the ETERNAL is human. Only his DABAR who is his Eternal Image in the Flesh his Form his Face speaks to us. Is it so difficult to grasp without distorting the Holy Torah??

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            July 1, 2015 at 8:38 pm

            No matter HOW you want to word it, or the words used, the simple fact IS you believe in a god of flesh and blood. This is paganism at its finest.
            As it says, they LEFT. Also the proof is in When Hashem speaks it is Hashem and when adonai it is to the angels. But you would rather believe in a man-god rather than Hashem as ONE, and “besides Him there is no other”.
    • Dina says:

      July 1, 2015 at 5:17 pm

      Lion, you keep repeating the same argument over and over, ignoring our responses. Are you hear only to talk, or also to listen and respond?

      Reply
      • Eliyah Lion says:

        July 1, 2015 at 6:34 pm

        Dina it is strange that you say that when I asked this and was not responded:

        Eliyah Lion says:
        June 29, 2015 at 9:43 am

        Yisroel you said: ”Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple”

        1) Do you know what Orthodox Christian means?
        2) Do you think that your worship of heylel is intentional or even known to you?
        3) Do you know what was the Messiah mission on this earth?
        4) Do you who was the form of YHWH that Mosheh saw in Numbers?

        Yisroel you have been deluded for more than 2000 years and still hanging on to your carnal view of Scriptures. Only a purified mind can see truly!!

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          July 1, 2015 at 6:51 pm

          I’m really disgusted by this constant sanctimonious self adulation you have. Purified mind??? Get real. If you had such purity of mind would you mislead people in your Hebrew knowledge. It has been proven, without any doubt, that you have mislead the people here on that account. You were unable to recognize “mouth to mouth” until it was pointed out to you. This is probably one of the first words a little Jewish kid would learn, yet you couldn’t discern it.

          Reply
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 1, 2015 at 8:19 pm

            Sharbano you accusations are baseless. I referred to the English Text New King James Version first I did not use the Hebrew first. And what this has to do with the arguments provided that destroys your false interpretations of Tanakh and Torah which your sect has brainwashed you with.

            Convert to real and true Religion the one of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov. The one who Moseh saw and felt mouth to mouth… You are so far from the truth blinded by your misunderstanding by lies and deceits coming from your mother Babylon… Get out of Her and may be you will be saved!!
          • Sharbano says:

            July 1, 2015 at 8:45 pm

            How would you “know” of the “religion” of the patriarchs. Your entire knowledge has its “ORIGIN” in the Xtian text first and foremost. You have never been introduced to True Torah teachings that came from Moshe at Sinai and handed down from generation to generation. Do you think Moshe didn’t know what he spoke about. What HE taught is the same as what is taught today. Your teaching if foreign to G-d, Jews, and Judaism. We all know what Torah teaches about foreign gods. There are warnings From Moshe regarding “wood and stone”, Xtianity and Islam. You have admitted how paramount the (wood) cross is in your religion. We follow Neither wood, Nor stone.
        • Dina says:

          July 1, 2015 at 8:26 pm

          Lion, I was referring to the argument you keep presenting over and over and over again that God appeared in a physical form throughout Scripture; this form was Jesus; therefore your worship of Jesus is justified.

          We have responded to that argument many times over and you have ignored our responses, simply repeating the same argument yet again. It gets tiresome talking to someone who keeps his fingers stuffed in his ears.

          Reply
        • Eliyah Lion says:

          July 1, 2015 at 9:36 pm

          Sharbano come on you did not believe Misrahi when he talked about wood and stone. That is so out of context from the text of Tanakh. You accuse the Christian of taking prophetic passage applied to the Messiah and you do so much worse by following the teaching of a blind man. How pathetic from your part!!

          I could debate you Misrahi and destroy all the lies he teaches on JC like he likes to call Him. This false rabbi is a poisoning your mind with false mishnah. The pure Mishnah you reject: choosing men instead of Eloah. How idolatrous you are!!

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            July 1, 2015 at 9:43 pm

            What are you talking about – Mizrachi.
            There IS a distinct correlation between Xtianity and Islam regarding sin. Xtian has a cross of wood that their sins are upon. As you yourself stated, the cross as altar. Now, in Mecca the black stone serves the same purpose, to deposit the sins of the person. There wood and stone of these to religions are methods of salvation. As it says, wood and stone, that cannot save. There is no other answer but this. Both your religions each rely on their own salvation conduits.
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 1, 2015 at 10:10 pm

            Sharbano then explain who are the sillver and gold referring to:

            Deuteronomy 29:17
            and you saw their abominations and their idols which were among them—wood and stone and silver and gold

            You theory is crashing like mere speculation…
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 1, 2015 at 10:14 pm

            36 “The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods—wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you. (Deuteronomy 28)

            Sharbano this is your country of origin… Again your speculation is crumbling. That is what happen when you follow Mizrachi…
          • Sharbano says:

            July 2, 2015 at 6:51 am

            You continue to make my point and confirm it.
          • LarryB says:

            July 2, 2015 at 9:20 am

            Just a who a is a Yas a who a?
            Maybe he is Zeus? Very interesting indeed.
            http://www.hiddenbible.com/jesuszeus/jesuszeus.html
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 2, 2015 at 11:18 am

            Sharbano your one line response show that your are of bad faith. If you were a genuine Jew you will take time to explain your theory correctly. Again what about this passage of Deuteronomy 29 who are the silver and gold… If wood and stone are what you said … Silver and gold are which religion …Hinduism??

            Deuteronomy 29:17
            and you saw their abominations and their idols which were among them—wood and stone and silver and gold…

            Be consistent Sharbano develop your theory or may be you need Mizrachi help…
          • Sharbano says:

            July 2, 2015 at 2:02 pm

            You really are a beginner at this aren’t you. If you made the effort to “study” scriptures instead of coming to some esoteric interpretation you would have known that people use silver and gold for adornment. Tanach Does explain itself if one makes the effort to learn.
            I must say when you referred to a wood cross as an altar that was quite compelling in concluding what the words mean, especially since you consider Your sect as the only authentic one. It makes the meaning even more true.
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 2, 2015 at 11:46 am

            Larry interesting link. You just realize that …

            1)I do not refer to this name but to יהושע Yahushuo which mean YHWH saves
            2)Orthodox Christianity is not a sect but a religion
            3)Sects are heretics from Judaism or Christianity that have gone astray clinging on to false doctrine coming from men or demons
            4)False religions are all the religions that do not invoke pray and worship the true Elohim: Elohei Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov and do not recognize the true Messiah of Israel
          • David says:

            July 2, 2015 at 12:12 pm

            Hi E.L.

            You wrote:
            Elohei Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov and do not recognize the true Messiah of Israel

            My commentary:
            That’s interesting coming from a Christian, because Jesus said in John 8:56,

            “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day,
            and he saw it, and was glad.”
12. Eliyah Lion says:

    July 7, 2015 at 10:54 am

    Yisroel said: “… the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. The standard that the people are to use is to see if the prophet is encouraging a worship that they did not know. If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere.”

    Yisroel you are right but where we differ is here: “If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere”

    Yahushuo proved his claim by His Resurrection for no power can resurrect flesh to a spiritual form unless YHWH does it by the power of His Ruah. The claim of YAHUSHUO is the claim of the Elohim. You deny the Resurrection because you know the consequence for your false view. Saul-Paul conversion came from the Resurrection without it Paul would have still been a pharisee. His conversion is a powerful testimony that Yahushuo Himself is the living Torah Master of Time and Space the One designated by YHWH to destroy the power of the Heylel.

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      July 7, 2015 at 11:41 am

      One man has a vision and you base your entire religion on THAT. Paul wasn’t the first, nor the last to have made such a claim.

      It is the same with the resurrection. Not only do the stories differ but who saw him. It’s the Applewhite Theorem at its best.

      Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      July 7, 2015 at 12:15 pm

      Eliyahu according to your ever-changing “ruah” a resurrection may “prove” something – but according to the eternal words of God the standard to measure a prophet is NOT a resurrection but conformance to the testimony of God’s witnesses and this Jesus failed to do

      Reply
      • eric krakofsky says:

        July 7, 2015 at 6:57 pm

        ypfriend “the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. ”

        God says put such to death, then He raises Jesus back to life. Do you see what I meant? If someone was to be put to death that was followed by staying in that state; staying dead! not back to life or else God acts against His own word.

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          July 7, 2015 at 7:19 pm

          Eric, a false prophet can rise to life. Read your book of revelation chapter 13.

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 8, 2015 at 11:47 pm

            Con, he ( false prophet) rises to life followed by everlasting judgement. Did Jesus raise to judgement ? No, the opposite , revelation and gospels shows he is the one through whom God will judge everybody! And all info about antichrist is based on NT not OT , since when all of a sudden NT is a source of a message to support any claims to you???
        • Dina says:

          July 7, 2015 at 11:32 pm

          Eric, Deuteronomy 13 teaches that if any self-proclaimed prophet teaches a new way to worship God then he is a false prophet NO MATTER WHAT. The text says that if that is the case, we should not be swayed by his miracle making, because God is testing us to see if we love Him. The text does not add an exception: “But if he rises to life after three days, then listen to whatever he says, no matter how new and different.”

          You’re adding your own disclaimers that are not in the Torah.

          By the way, the resurrection never even happened, did I mention that already? Did I, or maybe Jim, or someone, explain why that story is so terribly shaky? Hmm, not sure…if not, let me know…I’ll be happy to supply the details.

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 8, 2015 at 11:49 pm

            it is shaky to you, not to us.
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          July 7, 2015 at 11:38 pm

          Eric Not if that was the sign of the false prophet and Jesus was not put to death by a qualified court of Torah arbitrators

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 8, 2015 at 11:52 pm

            ypfriend, More qualified God than ‘qualified court of Torah arbitrators’ raises jesus back to life as there is nothing that holds Jesus back to say dead.
      • eric krakofsky says:

        July 7, 2015 at 7:01 pm

        ypfriend, ” according to the eternal words of God the standard to measure a prophet is NOT a resurrection but conformance to the testimony of God’s witnesses and this Jesus failed to do”

        That is your judgement but according to Daniel 12;2 resurrection belongs only to the righteous ones. If Jesus failed he should have stayed dead, yet God proved differently.

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          July 7, 2015 at 11:38 pm

          Eric Daniel 12:2 is NOT talking about a standard of measuring prophets Deuteronomy 13 is. Why do you turn to a passage that is different than the one that God would have you read in relation to this discussion?

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 8, 2015 at 11:55 pm

            ypfriend, Daniel 12;2 gives you the whole picture, it tells you false, wicked etc rise to eternal condemnation. That should tell you something why Jesus rises to life and not to judgement.
    • Dina says:

      July 8, 2015 at 12:28 am

      “Yahushuo proved his claim by His Resurrection for no power can resurrect flesh to a spiritual form unless YHWH does it by the power of His Ruah.”

      Lion, where does the Hebrew Bible teach this?

      “You deny the Resurrection because you know the consequence for your false view.”

      What are the consequences? What do you think Rabbi Blumenthal is afraid of? Just curious. (I hope you don’t mind my asking, Rabbi B.)

      Reply
      • eric krakofsky says:

        July 10, 2015 at 12:15 pm

        Dina, They record that word of the resurrection spread 50 days after the supposed event, so what is the point of a sign that you can’t see, that you have to rely on hearsay? That’s not a sign!
        Jesus didn’t wait 50 days to be seen , he was seen right after being risen at the tomb. He was coming to see different people at different time in whatever places they were, either on the road, at home , in town etc. He did only what God told him to do nor ‘ serving’ peoples on request.

        I didn’t say that all other miracles don’t necessarily prove a prophet is true! Where is that? It was rather what I heard from you; that no miracle prove anything!

        I said that when Jesus said’ no other sign will be given but sign of Jonah’, it didn’t mean that that was to be the only proving sign but that pharisees were able to witness many other previous miracles( predicted that the Messiah would do) yet still didn’t believe.

        “And you still have not proved that Jesus was justified in not fulfilling his sign to the Pharisees. He even says they don’t deserve it(..) ”
        He didn’t say ‘ they didn’t deserve it.’ That is a your conclusion nowhere found.Sorry.
        You ignored the fact that I presented that they were all well informed about his resurrection and why was the reason for them to bribe the witnessing guards? Why to distort the truth? No wonder Jesus called they as he did.

        “If Jesus were as popular and famous as the gospels described, it’s inconceivable that no one would have mentioned him. As it is, what references there are have been proven to be later Christian interpolations.”
        So that proves my point for him being rejected for a reason. Not everybody likes to hear the call to repentance and turn to God. The whole world won’t say with applause; ” what a great message Jesus ” and will do as he said, no different as with Jews telling the whole world to repent. He lived during the time where knowledge about living God among gentiles was so distorted by pagan worship of stone made gods. The gospels and epistles tell you about what it meant to be popular.
        It meant to be appreciated, accepted by those who wanted to hear word of God and decided to come to him through Jesus’s message. Appreciation, thankfulness was due to fact that they were forgiven!

        yes, you know every word that Pilat said… every word of his conversation has been recorded and it is not matching with gospels.. interesting Dina. Moon is really mane of cheese. I am sure you would good it supporting that, too!
        As far as pharisees of jesus time, God knows their hearts not historians. And why jesus was able to had a normal conversation with Nicodemus without calling him anything alike as the others? He belonged to the same group yet his heart was looking for the truth.

        Reply
        • Dina says:

          July 12, 2015 at 12:38 am

          Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20553

          I won’t respond to the first part because I saw that Con responded to it, and I don’t have anything to add to what he said. You responded to that as well, so when I get to it I will add my thoughts.

          Instead, I’ll address the historical record. This is a bit difficult because your only knowledge of the time period comes from your scripture, and you haven’t studied other sources. But I’ll try to clarify, at any rate.

          I argued that Jesus could not have been as famous and popular as the gospels claim or historians of the time period would have mentioned him. Your response was that of course they wouldn’t mention him because they didn’t want to hear his message. There are two problems with this.

          Number one, the historians I mentioned were neither Pharisees nor Sadducees, and therefore had no reason not to report a word about such a great leader. They were not his theological enemies. They were either Hellenized Jews or Romans. In other words, they had no axe to grind, no horse in this race, and all similar clichés.

          Number two, conspiracies about cover-ups of major events of history don’t hold any water. They just don’t happen. For example, in the seventeenth century a false messiah by the name of Shabbetai Zvi arose. Although the rabbis spoke out against him, he was enormously popular among the masses. People gushed about the miracles he performed (sounds familiar?). However, when he converted to Islam his popularity died.

          We know about Shabbetai Zvi, his popularity, his charisma, and the opposition of the rabbis from various historical records. Although a lot of people “rejected” his message, they nevertheless recorded these events.

          Your conspiracy theory that various historians who didn’t know each other and who would not have even felt threatened by Jesus’s message somehow conspired to suppress any record of the supposed events of Christian scripture is just not credible.

          You wrote: “yes, you know every word that Pilat said… every word of his conversation has been recorded and it is not matching with gospels.. interesting Dina. Moon is really mane of cheese. I am sure you would good it supporting that, too!”

          If you knew the history of the time period and the role Pilate played, you would be less quick to sneer. We know from the historical record that Pilate was so brutal and massacred so many Jews that even the Romans were horrified. He was stripped of his post and recalled to Rome after one massacre too many. It is inconceivable that this cruel, wanton, corrupt, dishonest official to whom Jewish lives meant absolutely nothing would have behaved the way the meek and even righteous Pilate of the gospels behaves, cowed by a Jewish mob. Inconceivable!

          I don’t have to know every interaction Pilate ever had to know that the description of his character in Christian scripture doesn’t match the historical Pilate. All I need is common sense to make that deduction.

          Another example is one that I believe Sharbano pointed out, and that is concerning the massacre of the baby boys. Such a tragedy on such a mass scale would not have gone unremarked by Jews. Josephus wrote tens of chapters on Herod but does not mention this massacre ever. You would think it would have been major news! Rather, it seems Matthew made it up to parallel Pharaoh’s decree to kill all Jewish baby boys to prevent their leader from growing up to save them.

          By the way, if the moon were made of cheese, I would totally eat it. I love cheese!

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 6:36 pm

            Dina, I combined some of your messages as it is to many;
            God didn’t have to wait till Jesus comes into scene to fulfill His promises about resurrection. Nobody has been resurrected to eternal life yet, till Messiah’ coming.

            “I do not understand your belief that Jesus redeemed the world from death (well, not the whole world, but those who accept him).”

            You do not understand that accepting Jesus means accepting God because to you Jesus is not God’s servant. Accepting the one God sends and speaks through means accepting God. Those will have life with God.
            ….
            “[I am the One] Who forms light and creates darkness; Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Maker of all of these” (Isaiah 45:7).
            My question refereed to ; is God an author of evil deciding for others to do crimes against others, like Nazi against Jews? Or do people have free will which may result in bad choices like turning to crimes against others but God may allow the situation to happen for a purpose? I expected an answer not just quotes as they may have a multiple understanding.

            When God creates one thing the opposite is automatically created when you create one thing like light, you automatically have darkness where there is no light.
            Where there is a mind that doesn’t follow God , you automatically have a person who does things against Him and others. But God is in control and aware of all situations not an author of a person crimes.. He may allow you to be in the hands of an oppressor for a lesson, or because of your own mistakes, but that doesn’t mean He is an author of the oppressors’ crimes. Just clarifying whether we understand it the same way. That also justifies the fact why the oppressors of God’s people are subject to God’s judgement although we read it is God who ‘ created’ that cursed situation .
            …
            “You have to first believe your NT in order to believe all this stuff.”

            It is like saying you have to first believe OT to learn how God lead His people ( to believe it) as even those who tell you facts know them based on their previous reading.” Also NT is fulfillment of promises. You would not know whether Jesus suffered and died or not for others if you didn’t read anything. ( unless you were an eye witness.)
            ….
            “promise of resurrection was given before Jesus ever entered the scene, and most important”
            And promise of a coming redeemer was given even before the resurrection was mentioned.
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 10:51 pm

            Eric, you missed my point about the promise of resurrection. You believe that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected, since his sacrifice conquered the death that Adam brought to the world.

            But although Adam brought death to the world, God promised resurrection at the end of days, even though Jesus hadn’t supposedly conquered death yet. We are told that the righteous will be resurrected, and we are taught how to become righteous. The Torah, as I have already said, lays out a complete path toward repentance and righteousness, leaving no room for belief in a demi-god messiah.

            When I wrote that I do not understand your belief that Jesus conquered death for those who believe in him, you did not address the reason I gave for not understanding it. Instead, you wrote this: “You do not understand that accepting Jesus means accepting God because to you Jesus is not God’s servant.”

            I have argued in the past that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Don’t deny it! It’s the height of dishonesty to say that Jesus did not come up with an innovation. And this innovation makes him a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13. (You argued that someone who is resurrected must be listened to no matter what; this chapter teaches that no miracle is sufficient to follow someone who contradicts the Torah.)

            Also, the authority you accord Jesus violates God’s clear teachings in Deuteronomy 4–that we are to worship God only according the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. And how are to transmit this knowledge to successive generations? The same chapter teaches us that we are to do this by teaching it, father to son. God furthermore instructs us in Isaiah that beside Him there is no savior and that He shares His glory with no one.

            You have yet to address Deuteronomy 4 and these passages in Isaiah. You have merely asserted in the past that God uses human agents through which to save, like Moses. You never addressed the fact that Jews have only ever viewed Moses that way–as a human tool of God’s. Once he died, we turned to the next leader to guide us, and there was never any requirement to “accept” any leader “as your lord and savior” in order to be saved. In fact, this is idolatry and forbidden. There is no parallel between the simple Jewish respect for Moses and the Christian worship of Jesus. Even if you do not worship Jesus as a god, you have made a man the focus and center of your religion. Jews have never made Moses or any man the the focus and center of their religion, God forbid!

            I’m not going to address the fact that God created everything, light and darkness (clearly stated in Genesis; it does not say that the darkness was automatically created as a result of the creation of light), good and evil. God states so Himself, and it’s pretty clear. It’s a minor point, and I see no need to dwell on it.

            You wrote: ” But God is in control and aware of all situations not an author of a person crimes.. He may allow you to be in the hands of an oppressor for a lesson, or because of your own mistakes, but that doesn’t mean He is an author of the oppressors’ crimes. Just clarifying whether we understand it the same way. That also justifies the fact why the oppressors of God’s people are subject to God’s judgement although we read it is God who ‘ created’ that cursed situation .”

            I agree. I’m glad to find we can agree on something!
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 6:43 pm

            Dina, ‘Eric, you missed my point about the promise of resurrection.’

            I am not insisting that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected because there might be people who repented and lived with God but never heard of Jesus. The same way like Jesus’ sacrifice is also for those who lived before him and trusted in God like David, Abraham and many others. They all associated future life after death with God’s redemption.

            “But although Adam brought death to the world, God promised resurrection at the end of days, even though Jesus hadn’t supposedly conquered death yet.”

            You do not understand that the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption. It is based on the servant’s justification in Is 53 which you interpret as you- -justifying us. ( in the future or so,) Jesus’ justification relates to all people who lived before him and after him. Anyways in God’s plan resurrection is not until Messiah comes to reign in his kingdom.

            “We are told that the righteous will be resurrected, and we are taught how to become righteous.”
            We know how to become righteous but we fail, like David, Salomon and others that’s why our justification is based on our trust in God’s grace based on listening to His voice. And if God speaks to us through his son, listening to him it is part of obeying God.
            You said that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Jesus didn’t change people’s approach to God ; love your God with all your hear and mind and soul and others as yourself- is still the most important principle. All law is based on these two commandments.
            There is no innovation in it. Coming to Jesus means putting God on the first place. You accept it or twist it and make it be more than it is.

            As far as your accusation of him being a false prophet; you put him to death thinking this is what Jesus deserved. God showed you; He raised him back to life proving you he didn’t deserve death. God didn’t support the judgement you put him on. Torah doesn’t tell you that false prophet will go back to life afterways.

            You bring things against Jesus’ words as violation to Deut 4. But examples of violation are not from jesus but based on other Christians’ approach. Jesus doesn’t teach you to put him above God. What he said about himself was being Son of God and the Messiah, the one who was sent by Father , the one who was doing what Father told him to do, and not replacing Father in heaven. So do not confuse anti-christian arguments with what is not in his teaching. And as far as Moses viewed as God’s tool via Jesus- you deny even a fact of accepting Jesus as God’s tool. And then you will still present arguments against him being God’s chosen leader because some Christians make him God. You make him Son of God and that will go along with what God said about him.

            When I spoke about God being in control in the middle of evil events, I meant He is not responsible for making somebody to be evil. And that is finally clear. And that was to refer to that ‘snake/serpent debate’ . God didn’t create a smart understanding animal to fool others and then punish him for the work he( serpent) did. If God’s purpose was really to make an animal that deceiving for a purpose, the serpent would not need the judgement as his obligation was to carry on his work of ‘temptation’ and only those who bought his lies should be subject to judgement not serpent himself. So it is logical that whatever voice spoke through the serpent it was not just an animal but the spirit voluntarily opposing God and leading others to sin.
            ( and we call that opposition- satan ) As a voluntary opposition he deserved punishment. Anyways God being in control of that evil action allowed that situation to happen to test whether Adam chooses obeying God or obeying some other voice.
            I hope that is obvious too.
          • Dina says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:26 pm

            Eric, your comment deserves more time and attention than I can give to it right now, but I just want to quickly comment on one point:

            “I am not insisting that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected because there might be people who repented and lived with God but never heard of Jesus.”

            Here you admit the possibility that one can repent and live with God without Jesus. So what gives?
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:35 am

            Eric, I’m catching up on old comments, so I’ll refer to them as I respond to them (I have six comments of yours awaiting my response).

            In reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20904

            “You do not understand that the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption. It is based on the servant’s justification in Is 53 which you interpret as you- -justifying us.”

            No, the Hebrew Bible does not teach that the resurrection is connected to belief in a Messiah who sacrificed himself to save everyone from sin and death. Even your interpretation of Isaiah 53 doesn’t teach that one must believe in the Messiah in order to attain eternal life.

            You wrote that “the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption” (emphasis added).

            Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully. Always? In fact, never. Not once is the promise of resurrection ever connected with “Jesus future sacrifice and justification.” Even Isaiah 53 according to you interpretation does not connect it because that passage promises long life (in your interpretation, “resurrection”) only to the servant if he does what God expects of him. The promise of resurrection is not clearly spelled out the way it is in Ezekiel, for example, nor is it promised to everyone.

            “We know how to become righteous but we fail, like David, Salomon and others.”

            But repentance worked for them and it works for us too. That is what the Bible teaches.

            “You said that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Jesus didn’t change people’s approach to God ; love your God with all your hear and mind and soul and others as yourself- is still the most important principle. All law is based on these two commandments.
            There is no innovation in it. Coming to Jesus means putting God on the first place. You accept it or twist it and make it be more than it is.”

            This is just dishonest, Eric. Not that I think you are intentionally dishonest. You are very sincere. But nevertheless this is dishonest. Why? Because we Jews already put God in the first place and the only place. We Jews already believe in the fundamental principle of “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might,” which is part of our liturgy that we say three times a day. We already accept that, as Hillel taught in the Talmud, “love your fellow as yourself” is the whole Torah; everything else is commentary.

            So of course it’s an innovation to say that the complete path to repentance laid out in the Torah is not enough, that our beliefs that I just outlined above are not enough, that our Torah observance and obedience to God’s commandments are not enough, but that you also must accept another human being as your lord and savior to attain eternal life–without that everything else counts for nothing.

            That is absolutely an innovation because there is no such teaching anywhere in the whole entire Hebrew Bible, even in Isaiah 53.

            That is why it completely violates Deuteronomy 4 and 13 and the commandment not to add or subtract to the Law.

            “As far as your accusation of him being a false prophet; you put him to death thinking this is what Jesus deserved.”

            I put him to death? Are you accusing me of deicide, now, Eric? The Romans put him to death because that is what they did to messianic claimants. Such people were a direct threat to the empire. The Jews had nothing to do with it except in the imagination of the gospel writers.

            “God showed you; He raised him back to life proving you he didn’t deserve death. God didn’t support the judgement you put him on. Torah doesn’t tell you that false prophet will go back to life afterways.”

            I don’t believe God raised him back to life. But even if He did (which He didn’t!), God warns us that no kind of miracle can justify the introduction of a new kind of worship (and make no mistake: “I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one comes to the Father except through me” is a new kind of worship). God says that He Himself is testing us to see if He loves us (read Deuteronomy 13 again). He didn’t rule out any kind of miracle.

            I tell you, Eric, you can deny it till you’re blue in the face, but if Jesus wanted his resurrection to be believed, he should have shown himself to doubters and believers alike, to the whole nation of Israel, the way that God spoke to Moses from a cloud in front of the whole nation so everyone would believe, the doubters and believers alike (Exodus 19:9). For such an important revelation, it’s fair to demand the same standard of evidence.

            But such a thing could never happen because God said that our worship of Him must never change.

            ” And as far as Moses viewed as God’s tool via Jesus- you deny even a fact of accepting Jesus as God’s tool.”

            If all Jesus did was teach the people about repentance and turning to God and saying nothing at all about himself, or belief in himself, then I would have no problem with him. But even non-Trinitarian Christians like you give him way more authority than any human deserves, making him the only way to God, something not taught anywhere in the Hebrew Bible and thus an innovation in worship. Jesus, a mere man, is the center and focus of Christianity. God and only God is the center and focus of Judaism.

            But having said all that, of course Jesus is God’s tool. We all are, in some sense. Although, not in the sense you might think.

            As for your snake argument, it’s a whole lot of hooey. You have taken the text and given it a meaning that is simply not there. The Torah doesn’t teach a word of what you said. I still think it’s bizarre for Christians who did not receive the Torah from God to tell those who did how to understand it. It takes a lot of hubris, my friend.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 6:48 pm

            Dina, You said “in reality this blog tries to ward off Christian missionaries by explaining and defending our position”
            You might be defending your position and Christians will do as well, as either side will be sure they are right. The point of defending our position is to show you that there was a need for God sending His son and it has nothing to do with somebody feeling attacked ( so we write back).
            So your conclusion is wrong that Christians get indignant or feel attacked and threatened. I am not sure here who is more insecure, the one who gives doubts to what he believes, or the one who is sure his faith is stable and built on solid ground so it doesn’t crush under somebody’s words.
            I do not need more amount of evidence as God as I have evidence in God’s word and God is capable to prove His words are true he said about His son. We are given peace and we are given His spirit that we belong to Him ( which jesus said will happen after coming to God) . This so called ‘ redemptive experience’ which is undeniable to everybody who came to God and believed Jesus is His son. If I have peace with God I suggest others to worry and focus on evaluating themselves and not to worry about me. Simple.

            “To grow, one must always be open to the possibility that he is wrong. ”
            Are you saying that about yourself? Would you accept possibility for Jesus being the Messiah? It doesn’t look like.. but we have to be open he might not be the one we think …hmmm. suggesting one sided openness?
            Then you said “no Christian has been able to meet this standard( of yours) in proving Christian doctrines” Or there might be a possibility that your interpretation of facts is not always seen with how God made it to be. let’s list examples; based on Is 53 justifying others can be Jesus or the nation, In Gen3 crushed head of the serpent can mean being wounded while conquering the enemy of God’s people or it is just a message of ‘inconvenient wild animal encounter’ , at Passover ; the sacrifice of lamb and marks of blood might be just as God’s way of sense of humor to tease Egyptians or a sign and indication of price paid for being saved from God’s judgement ( which applies to being saved from God’s judgement in general. Sacrifices can be a sign of price involved in removing our sins or just bloody ritual with no deeper purposes whatsoever. If God is love then there is His grace, but God is also justice so there has to be price paid.) The list can go …

            “Do you have a standard of evidence, barring miracles, revelation, and other supernatural events?” It is continued in TN that you reject so why are you even asking?
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 1:14 am

            Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20905

            You made some sarcastic comments about my one-sided open-mindedness, that I should expect you to be open to the possibility that you are wrong but that I am not open to the possibility that I might be wrong.

            You should not be so quick to make assumptions about other people.

            In my early adulthood, I was troubled by the question that I was an observant Jew only because I had been raised to be one. I had to find the truth for myself, and I started at the beginning. Since all the religions of the world contradict each other on fundamentals, then either only one of them is true or none of them are true. That was my starting point.

            When I came to Christianity, I was surprised at how quickly it unraveled. If you accept the Torah as false, Christianity is false; if you accept the Torah as true, Christianity doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in its light.

            It was this experience that got me reading a lot about Jewish history, Christian anti-Semitism, and Christian-Jewish polemics in general.

            I believe that complacency (what you call peace with God) is dangerous because it stops you from growing. There are always higher levels of truth to attain, you can always deepen your human relationships, and you can always strengthen your connection with God. You’re not done until you die.

            You wrote: “Then you said “no Christian has been able to meet this standard( of yours) in proving Christian doctrines” Or there might be a possibility that your interpretation of facts is not always seen with how God made it to be. let’s list examples; based on Is 53 justifying others can be Jesus or the nation, In Gen3 crushed head of the serpent etc.”

            I don’t think you know what I mean when I say a clear and direct teaching. I don’t mean a passage that can be interpreted. I mean a passage that is so clear that its meaning cannot be disputed. Here is an example of what I mean:

            “You shall not murder.”

            That is clear and direct.

            “You shall believe in the Messiah and accept him as your lord and savior in order to live forever” would be a clear and direct teaching. Okay?

            All the teachings that we present from the Hebrew Bible, such as Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33, the Ten Commandments, are clear and direct teachings in contrast to the highly unclear and highly disputed passages that you presented that not even all Christians agree on the interpretation. But no one, neither Christian nor Jew, disputes the teachings I just cited.

            That’s the standard. If God commands it, I will try my best to follow it.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 6:40 pm

            Dina, “the Sabbath is an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people, and there is one group of Jewish people that has never stopped observing the Sabbath: ”

            Can you prove that nobody ever stopped in that ‘chain’ ?

            As you said Sabbath is a sign; not to be just for the sake of being ‘ between’ people and God but a sign for a reason to point to something; taking time of relationship with God.

            When Jesus said he is the lord of the Sabbath, it means he is an author of restored relationship with God and peace with God through his sacrifice for us. So we can enjoy that relationship with God any time every day. I have nothing against keeping Sabbath a set day apart especially for God only ( even Jesus didn’t call people to give it up) but observing it doesn’t indicate somebody does it for relationship with God but he may just do it because of a tradition. That’s why I say; no preserved chain and no denomination that is better than the others.

            “Eric Its not a matter of judging the people if they are righteous or not – it is a matter of determining which testimony is God talking about when He calls Israel His witnesses. What does God mean when He says to follow His Law – which group of people are the repository of His truth.”

            Those whom you call ‘ repository of His truth’ and God’s witnesses also need restoration according to Isa 49. And I do not have a problem with God’s messiah ( Jesus) being that rest- orator. All nations will be attracted to his knowledge and teaching ( Is 11)
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 11:10 pm

            Eric, I can’t believe you wrote this:

            “Dina, “the Sabbath is an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people, and there is one group of Jewish people that has never stopped observing the Sabbath: ”

            Can you prove that nobody ever stopped in that ‘chain’ ?”

            Before I answer your question, when I say “group of people” I never mean every single person in that group. Of course people in that group fell away from observance–and were lost to the Jewish people, tragically–but there was always a core that remained. I don’t know why whenever I say group of people you think I mean every single individual.

            But I can’t believe you even asked, and I hardly know where to begin.

            First, are you disputing God’s word? God says that the Sabbath will be an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people. Eternal means forever. It means the Jewish people will never stop keeping this commandment. Do you take God seriously? Or are you only interested in what He has to say if you can twist it to support your theology?

            Second, are you so ignorant of history that you are really unaware that the historical record shows an unbroken chain of observant Jews? Observant Jews wrote books in just about every generation, their gentile contemporaries wrote about them–can you really ignore the weight of historical evidence?

            Third, do you think I sprang out of nowhere? I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai. Who do you think the Jewish people are, Eric? A modern group of people who appeared in the twentieth century?

            Finally, here’s a fact that you refuse to acknowledge but the historical record proves it and the statistics prove it. Every single Jew today, whether secular or observant, is descended from Orthodox Jews. And that has always been the case. That is why I keep saying that even Christian writers of Jewish history have observed that rabbinic (or Pharisaic or Orthodox) Judaism is the only form that has been able to survive physically and spiritually.

            Man, I’m shaking my head, Eric. If you wanted to prove the moon were made of cheese, you would ignore all evidence to the contrary!

            You wrote: “As you said Sabbath is a sign; not to be just for the sake of being ‘ between’ people and God but a sign for a reason to point to something; taking time of relationship with God.”

            Actually, the Torah gives us a reason for the sign. See Exodus 31:13 and 17; Deuteronomy 5:15.

            “Those whom you call ‘ repository of His truth’ and God’s witnesses also need restoration according to Isa 49.” We already explained that the righteous remnant will restore the rest of Israel to God.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 7:21 pm

            Dina,
            “Number one, the historians I mentioned were neither Pharisees nor Sadducees, and therefore had no reason not to report a word about such a great leader. ”
            For those to whom Jesus was not theologically related, he was just a fellow who died without a purpose of his teaching and no reason to be mentioned.
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 11:21 pm

            “For those to whom Jesus was not theologically related, he was just a fellow who died without a purpose of his teaching and no reason to be mentioned.”

            Eric, you missed my point about Shabbetai Zvi. When a phenomenon like that occurs, whether people have a theological investment in it or not, they record it. History doesn’t ignore things like that. Or else you have to believe that Jesus’s case was unique. Other charismatic leaders who promised the world and failed spectacularly made it into the news, but everyone ignored Jesus. Really, if you wanted to prove the moon were made of cheese…
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:34 pm

            Dina, Nobody ignored Jesus. God made it possible that NT is read all over the world in every almost language and country unlike the books of other charismatic leaders known only to a certain group. (if even so) And even before the print was so available like now that you print any book you want to in thousands, God made it possible that all about jesus preserved till now and didn’t die out with one of European plagues , wars or disasters , neither among persecuted believers in every century..
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 5:31 am

            {God made it possible that NT is read all over the world in every almost language and country}

            Really???
            You ignore your own church history. It was spread by the sword of the church, and its heavy-handedness. Xtians like to put a nice face on it. Believe or Die was the motto. By the same token they misrepresent Isaiah 53. We can say the same thing about Islam. In that church zealotry they DID try to destroy Jewish knowledge, with their book (Talmud) burnings etc.Xtians like to play nice today, and forget the past, except when it suits them, as here.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 4:05 pm

            Sharbano, NT is printed all over the world without killing anybody and accepted by people who themselves pay price for their faith and are persecuted in many Asian countries if they want to believe in Jesus.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:35 pm

            Mine was in reference to History. The church expanded throughout the entire world by the sword. It’s how America was founded.
            The church didn’t go into all these countries to sit down and teach the pagans but stole their gold and murdered the lot of them.
            I saw a debate in Canada with a Rabbi, a Xtian, and a Canadian Indian of some nationality. She described what happened to her people, and it wasn’t all that long ago. The church people came to their communities and forbade them their culture and forced the conversion of their entire people. She was So offended by their actions and the loss of their culture, which she was trying to reinstate, that she actually despised Xtians.
            The American Indian is another example, of what happens to those who don’t accept a Xtian god. I’m not all that learned in their culture but from everything I can gather there is nothing essentially pagan in their culture. If this is the case what would happen to them. Interestingly, the first Xtians took one look at them and thought They were demons running around.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:38 am

            Eric The kids in my community never heard of Jesus
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 3:30 pm

            ypfriend, “Eric The kids in my community never heard of Jesus”

            Wow, what a surprise ? Since when Jews are even WILLING’ to hear about him or make him known? What type of statement you put!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 18, 2015 at 10:44 pm

            Eric Did the kids in your community hear about Joseph Smith?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 20, 2015 at 11:04 pm

            Ypfriend, there is no account in the bible about him, for what sake he should bother me??
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 20, 2015 at 11:53 pm

            Eric There is no account about Jesus in my Bible too so why should he bother me or my kids?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:34 am

            ypfriend, you made a choice not to include Jesus. Smith is neither part of NT nor OT.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:53 am

            Eric Jesus is not part of the Jewish Bible – its not a matter of choice he’s not there. Smith is part of the book of Mormon – which is as meaningful to my community as the Christian Scriptures.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:58 am

            ypfriend, everything is a matter of choice. You make decisions. Before NT became ‘non- jewish bible’ it was Jewish till somebody made it an ‘alien’.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 21, 2015 at 1:06 am

            Eric The Christian Scriptures were NEVER the “Jewish Bible” – they are the books of one particular group of Jews – the same standard that tells us that the Jewish scriptures are God’s word tells us that the Christian Scriptures are not – by the way – Mormons would tell you that the book of Mormon is as authoritative as the Christian Scriptures and should be considered as such except for the fact that establishment Christianity made it “alien”
          • Sharbano says:

            July 21, 2015 at 5:36 am

            Geeez, he was making an analogy. Smith has no importance for you the same as Jsus has no importance to us.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 7:29 pm

            Dina, “in the seventeenth century a false messiah by the name of Shabbetai Zvi arose. Although the rabbis spoke out against him, he was enormously popular among the masses. People gushed about the miracles he performed (sounds familiar?). However, when he converted to Islam his popularity died. ”
            Unlike all the others they were not resurrected to eternal life with God like Jesus.
            Popularity of jesus didn’t die with his going to the Father ( in heaven). God hears people’s prayers in Jesus name, which includes acknowledging Jesus as God’s son and what God has done through him. Through Jesus , criminals are able to come to God and repent and take a turn in their lives toward relationship with God they never had. They ‘experience’ forgiveness, Jesus message still changes their lives. It is not just empty words and memories.
13. Concerned Reader says:

    July 7, 2015 at 7:30 pm

    Eric, Daniel 12:2 makes no such declaration that only the righteous rise! It says some will Awake to Everlasting life, OTHERS TO EVERLASTING CONTEMPT, the implication being that even the wicked can rise to life, but to everlasting contempt. Again, revelation 13 also says that the anti Christ of you Christians will say he is G-d, suffer a deadly wound, and be healed, tricking all nations. Your claim here then is soundly refuted, even by your own belief system.

    Reply
    • Dina says:

      July 7, 2015 at 11:40 pm

      Touché, Con!

      Reply
    • eric krakofsky says:

      July 8, 2015 at 11:36 pm

      Con, “Eric, Daniel 12:2 makes no such declaration that only the righteous rise!”
      When I am talking about everlasting life for the righteous ones I mean life as a reward , life free of death, life with God to forever enjoy God. So I am not talking about those who will wake up to EVERLASTING CONTEMPT, or condemnation. They will suffer judgement not enjoying God.
      There is a difference between a reward and condemnation. I though it should be obvious to you.
      You said according to revelation anti-christ will say he is G-d, suffer a deadly wound, and be healed, tricking all nations. Then you go;
      “Your claim here then is soundly refuted, even by your own belief system.” REALLY? What is refuted here? Anti-christ as a tempter and distorter of God’s word will be PRESENT temporary in God’s plan in the end times for a reason, but he is not to live forever! Read revelation what is his end! Rev 20;10 terrible judgement is his end not everlasting life with God!
      You are like a leaves in the wind. Whatever direction the wind blows you are there.

      Reply
      • eric krakofsky says:

        July 8, 2015 at 11:42 pm

        Con, I will make it clear “anti-christ is not to live forever!” by that I mean forever to enjoy life. Everlasting judgement and everlasting reward- life are two different things!
        And when we talked about jesus as being risen back to life as a righteous one he was not risen to life of everlasting judgement but to life with God and reigning with Him.

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          July 9, 2015 at 7:54 am

          I would suggest that if J’sus’ resurrection is valid then by rights he should have appeared to others in subsequent generations. He has been silent since the text was written.
          In Jewish Tradition Elijah has visited various Rabbis in subsequent generations, so why not J’sus.

          Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 9, 2015 at 12:18 am

        That’s a meaningless distinction. How do you tell the difference between a true ressurection, and a false messiahs ressurection? The claim and miracle itself proves nothing.

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          July 9, 2015 at 12:19 am

          If a false teacher can rise in a fake way, how do you distinguish the true from the false?

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 9, 2015 at 1:14 am

            Con, “If a false teacher can rise in a fake way, how do you distinguish the true from the false?”
            How can you rise to life in a fake way? You either do or not. You are either back alive or not. Don’t you???

            The only message on deadly- wounded anti-christ deceiver is in Revelation it is a message that is clearly stated. All details predicted. No surprise, only to those who don’t want to know God. God tells you what will happen and how that person will act and end up. If you know the scriptures you can’t be mistaken. Th e false prophet is not said to go to God but act on earth and then end up in judgement.
          • Concerned Reader says:

            July 9, 2015 at 2:50 am

            You are missing my point Eric. It is only You Christians who are the ones saying to everyone on planet earth that there is one person, Jesus, who is G-d, who you say that we must accept his teaching, or perish and be punished eternally just for saying no.

            You want all the nations to accept the changes in the times and in the Toeah as taught by the Church. Shavuot is ditched for pentacost, Passover ditched for Easter, Christmas, etc. You want us to place our trust in “the son of man” for salvation. The Tanakh contradicts literally each of thiese teachings one by one and says explicitly that the sons do not die for the fathers, nor fathers for sons, but each for his own sin shall die. The Tanakh clearly and unambiguously teaches that G-d the father does not share his glory, and also tells us to “trust not in the son of man in whom there is no hope.” Your Jesus is your own NT scripture’s picture of the false messiah (a man believed by all the nation’s because he rose from a deadly wound, who changed set times and the law, and who set himself in G-d’s temple, and said I am G-d, requiring on pain of death that people accept him. Jesus was just a Jew, not G-d.
14. Concerned Reader says:

    July 9, 2015 at 12:16 am

    What is proved Eric is that while Christianity teaches that Jesus’ ressurection proves his legitimacy, the same book in revelation says that a ressurection miracle proves nothing. You Christians also teach that the messiah must be G-d himself, and must be worshipped, when your own book tells you to be weary of people who make this claim. So, all your “proofs” are inconclusive. Just because a guy raises from death and says he’s G-d doesn’t make it true.

    Reply
    • eric krakofsky says:

      July 9, 2015 at 12:28 am

      “Co, Just because a guy raises from death and says he’s G-d doesn’t make it true.”
      you go by your own theory. He doesn’t rise to life and says’ I am God” He says he goes to his Father which is God. Read the scriptures instead commenting others.

      Reply
15. Concerned Reader says:

    July 9, 2015 at 1:35 am

    Eric, I’m not going by my theory alone, but by well established ancient Christian traditions about a false messiah who claims he is G-d, coupled with a straightforward reading of chapter 13 of your own book of revelation. You have claimed that only the righteous can be resurrected to life, and this is only by G-d’s power. The NT itself says that this isn’t true. false teachers like your anti Christ can claim the exact same claims, and do lying miracles to prove their point and rise after a deadly wound. Judaism does not accept the premise that G-d takes on human form, nor does Judaism grant that a ressurection proves anybody’s legitimacy as a prophet. Ergo, we will not be fooled by a liar who says he is G-d or allegedly raises to life in order to “prove” himself. You say that anti messiah doesn’t raise to “eternal” life, but that’s an irrelevant distinction, because your own text says that he manages to fool everyone in the world because of a ressurection from a deadly wound. After this, the nations accept him as G-d and worship this false one by taking his mark. If It’s enough of a falsehood to fool all nations, that’s the point at issue. Judaism doesn’t grant the premises at all that miracles like resurrection prove a prophet, due to Halacha. The Sinai revelation is what proved Moses’ prophecy, not his miracles. Just look at the history of human beings worshiping other men as divine. Caesar, Pharoah, Hindu faith, the Greeks (Antiochus Epiphanies literally in Greek called Ἀντίοχος Δ΄ ὁ Ἐπιφανής, Antíochos D’ ho Epiphanḗs, “God Manifest”)

    It is a fact of the Jewish bible that G-d is not a human being. Christians violate this central concept of Torah, namely, the distinction between creator and created in their veneration of Jesus.

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      July 9, 2015 at 8:10 am

      If the S’tan can be a serpent then why not.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 9, 2015 at 1:23 pm

        My point Sharbano, is that the Christian’s own religious texts warn Christians about the dangers of holding those kinds of beliefs (such as belief in a person’s deity because he allegedly rose from the dead,) ideas that they hold to be most essential when it’s their Jesus. If it’s their Jesus, they say it’s completely ok and biblical, but if it were anyone else claiming it, it’s a lie. The Tanakh by contrast teaches that ANYONE who claims he is G-d is a liar. No man is G-d, only G-d is G-d. The King of tyre thought he was a divine being, G-d had to take him down a peg.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 10, 2015 at 12:40 pm

          Con, you are distorting our truth sooooooooooo muuuuch here by

          ” that the Christian’s own religious texts warn Christians about the dangers of holding those kinds of beliefs (such as belief in a person’s deity because he allegedly rose from the dead,) ideas that they hold to be most essential when it’s their Jesus. ”
          Our text claim that fact, but who claims it? Jesus! After risen back to life. Just think logically what you said! It is Jesus who gives the warning! So where is his lie? If jesus lies , that means there is no danger , no possibility of anti-christ. You twisted yourself in your facts -manipulation.

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            July 10, 2015 at 2:07 pm

            Do you know Eric how many people claim to be Jesus and G-d? Tons of them! And Christians follow them. Marshal Appelwhite, Jim Jones, Jose Luis de Jesus, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus

            If your Jesus upheld Torah as you claim, you wouldn’t need Jesus to uphold it, you have Moses.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 10, 2015 at 8:48 pm

            Con, You simply do not understand the purpose of Jesus coming. Moses died himself and needed a savior himself. If Moses is sufficient so why the need for the Messiah?
          • David says:

            July 10, 2015 at 2:15 pm

            C.R.

            According to your logic, if Moses had upheld the Torah you wouldn’t have needed God to send another.
          • Concerned Reader says:

            July 10, 2015 at 2:34 pm

            His lie from a Torah standpoint is in claiming divinity at all.
          • David says:

            July 10, 2015 at 4:25 pm

            And what about your lies?

            By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides?
      • eric krakofsky says:

        July 10, 2015 at 12:33 pm

        Sharbano, ” If the S’tan can be a serpent then why not.” I would rather say; if Satan can speak though others ( like serpent) then why not.
        But if serpent can be that smart and know God’s will and understand exactly what death is after never experiencing it which would be an abstraction to anybody who never saw a dead one after being just created, hmm that snake’ wisdom is just overwhelmingly excellent. Just a simple encounter with a simple snake but what a smartness! I wonder if all of them do understand so much but can’t just express it as they can’t talk anymore…

        Reply
    • eric krakofsky says:

      July 10, 2015 at 12:21 pm

      Con, “You are missing my point Eric. It is only You Christians who are the ones saying to everyone on planet earth that there is one person, Jesus, who is G-d, who you say that we must accept his teaching, or perish and be punished eternally just for saying no.”

      Or you say ;Christians do this or that
      Listen to the scriptures not what others say. Jesus didn’t tell you to replace passover with Easter and buy an Easter bunny, come on! He didn’t tell you bring a St Clause while celebrating Jesus; birthday!
      Jesus didn’t come to change the law , times, offerings and didn’t set in the earthly temple and messed up .- ( what you wrote) the but he came to fulfill the law. You are far away from the truth.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 10, 2015 at 1:55 pm

        If Jesus said to fulfill the Torah, why are you here to take Jews away from Torah?

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          July 10, 2015 at 1:59 pm

          I’m not messing up your sources, I’m quoting your own sources, with your own theologians to back me up, and showing how Christian words and deeds are contradictory. 2000 years of Christians telling Jews they don’t have it right, yet Jews aren’t the ones who replace biblical holidays with nonsense, or who say a man was G-d. It’s just ironic that your own book tells you to be careful of people who claim divinity.

          Reply
          • David says:

            July 10, 2015 at 10:33 pm

            C.R.,

            God said in Deuteronomy 18 to listen to such a prophet.

            The only question is whether or not he is the prophet referred to or not. The Christian Scriptures say yes. You say no.

            If you don’t believe him to be the prophet then you shouldn’t listen to him. But don’t tell others they are violating the Hebrew Scriptures because they do.
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 10, 2015 at 8:43 pm

          Con, “If Jesus said to fulfill the Torah, why are you here to take Jews away from Torah?”
          Show me where on that blog did I tell anybody” leave your Torah away!”???
          I am trying to show them that Jesus is truly God’s son and servant.

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            July 10, 2015 at 9:41 pm

            If he were a servant, why must he be worshipped served, etc. you are adding to the Torah by tacking Jesus onto things.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 7:33 pm

            Con,
            “if he were a servant, why must he be worshiped served, etc. you are adding to the Torah by tacking Jesus onto things.”

            Jesus came as a servant to did for peoples’ sins. But In the kingdom to come when he is ruling he will be serves as a king is served.
            Didn’t you read that all nations will serve the messiah? ( Is 11) Worshiped is your added statement here. I would suggest not adding something that isn’t there. Nobody is asking you to worshing Jesus so speak in your own name.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 7:35 pm

            Con, It should be ; Nobody is asking you to worship Jesus so speak in your own name.
      • Sharbano says:

        July 10, 2015 at 2:14 pm

        But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” instead of G-d’s redemption from Egypt. How is that NOT changing the Torah, or “law” as Xtians want to put it.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 10, 2015 at 8:59 pm

          Sharbano ” But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” instead of G-d’s redemption from Egypt. How is that NOT changing the Torah, or “law” as Xtians want to put it. ”

          Jesus said he didn’t send himself but God . So all is owed to God – the whole redemption process.
          “But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” Redemption of Egypt didn’t need slathering of a lamb and blood shed . Ask yourself whether God could carry people out without anything.? Sacrificed lamb was for a sign that there was price paid for the freedom .
          That’s why jesus is called the lamb of God as he had to die for our freedom from bondage of sin that led us to death.

          Reply
    • eric krakofsky says:

      July 10, 2015 at 12:27 pm

      Con, “Eric, I’m not going by my theory alone, but by well established ancient Christian traditions about a false messiah who claims he is G-d, coupled with a straightforward reading of chapter 13 of your own book of revelation. You have claimed that only the righteous can be resurrected to life, and this is only by G-d’s power. The NT itself says that this isn’t true. false teachers like your anti Christ can claim the exact same claims,?” I already answered you to that yesterday.

      You are using Jesus words to prove that, so we have even more reason to trust Jesus. He gave us the warning.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 10, 2015 at 1:53 pm

        I have no reason to trust the NT, but when even your text shows how dangerous belief in a deified individual is, I find it interesting.

        Reply
        • David says:

          July 10, 2015 at 2:13 pm

          C.R.,

          Your logic runs something like this,

          The Hebrew Scriptures provide warnings against false prophets and include many descriptive examples of false prophets.

          Therefore all prophets are false,

          God provided warnings against idolatry.

          Therefore He must be an idol.

          By the way, was Aaron a false prophet because he made the golden calf?

          Don’t abandon your common sense in your quest to inject your own faulty logic into Scripture.

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 10, 2015 at 8:49 pm

            David, good points!
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 10, 2015 at 8:40 pm

          Con, you were from the beginning on either side or no side- as far as I remember starting that Jesus can be Messiah and at the same time he was not and many similar strange statements. But then you argued with ypfriend that that redemptive’ experience’ of followers of jesus is undeniable. Now you claim that Jesus even didn’t exist or was a liar according to you. It is hard to figure you out!

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            July 10, 2015 at 9:52 pm

            Jesus did exist. He was a 1st century Torah teacher. He, like other people and messiah claimants has been deified by his students. I do not hate Jesus, nor the ethical standards that he taught, but to necessitate that people acknowledge Christian theology and Jesus as the only way to the father/messiah contradicts the plain meaning of the Torah. Even if there was somehow a messianic dimension to Jesus’ life (in that through him the bible reached many nations, Muhammad did the same for many nations too.) Christian theology has tacked on added ideas, foreign influences, and anti Torah ideology. If Jesus was pro Torah, than why can’t you leave Jews alone to obey the Torah.why do you insist on mediation through Jesus? The minute you necessitate Jesus, you have changed the way that Israel understood G-d from their fathers, which is to contradict Torah.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 6:24 pm

            Con,
            “Eric, what lies? Yes, your new testament claims Jesus is the word of G-d. (John 1:1) that he rose from death, etc. but your revelation chapter 13 proves that even FALSE TEACHERS AND MESSIAHS CLAIM THIS TOO! THIS PROVES ITS NOT A TRUSTWORTHY CLAIM IN AND OF ITSELF. ”
            me; but revelation is a book given from Jesus . Do I have to repeat it many times as you do not see. Is Jesus speaking against himself there???? Revelation gives you more details than just possibilities of false prophets to perform miracles.

            In all the examples you listed from Revelation you ignored that message. It is Jesus who is giving the warning. And he is not giving a warning against himself. but that’s how it looks like according to your theology. Also according to your understanding he is representing a group of the same false prophets who are speaking against each other. No different than what the Pharisees accused him for , doing all works through the power of a devil. And what did Jesus answer them? The kingdom that works against itself will fall apart. There was no way he was doing his works with devils’ power
            ( kicking off other demons).
            Back to your comment;
            I just skip all verses you wrote as it is long just focus on some ;

            ” And there was given unto him a mouth speaking GREAT THINGS and BLASPHEMIES; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”
            My question; what blasphemies AGAINST God did Jesus say?? According to book of Revelation the blasphemies are pretty wrath and cruel nasty words against God .

            “6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.”
            Con, please list me all Jesus’ blasphemies against God’s name, tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven”
            Where are the examples of Jesus “sitting in the temple of God”
            Examples when Jesus says he is ABOVE God?
            Give me examples of Jesus OPPRESSING HIS OWN PEOPLE and speaking against the Most High, changing the set times.

            “There is no warning about people claiming to be deity? Are you nuts? ITS RIGHT THERE! Just read it!”
            Does any of these examples in Daniel and Revelation tell you false prophets will be resurrected after 3 days , bless people , pray for people, heal others and go to the Father in heaven???
            They can call themselves deity they end up in deadly judgement not resurrection unlike Jesus.
            You listed examples from Revelation I wonder why I skipped some;
            “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” The Lamb which is Jesus.

            This verse tells you clearly that all who are against Christ will believe the beast’s lies.
            By the way- I repeat it again. it is Christ who the message is from.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 6:25 pm

            Con,
            “What about G-d’s warning to the Prince of tyre who claims he is a divinity?”

            Was Prince of Tyre resurrected to confuse him with Jesus?
            Is that description of jesus’ death?
            Ezek 28;18
            “By your many sins and dishonest trade
            you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
            So I made a fire come out from you,
            and it consumed you,
            and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
            in the sight of all who were watching.”
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 13, 2015 at 6:28 pm

            Con,con
            “G-d promised a prophet LIKE Moses G-d said nothing about replacing Moses or the Torah of Moses. ”
            Replacement of torath is in your misunderstanding. Jesus’ call was’ love God and your neighbor as yourself. This is what all the law is based on. Does he( Jesus) contradict his own words?

            “By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides? The fact that you even have to ask this question Eric shows how off the path you are man. The only reason you even know about noachides, or the Ger, (righteous non […]
            I guess you confused me with someone else. I do not see what are you referring to by your statement and I do not remember that conversation with me.. And do not try hard. You can’t crush my faith.
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 10:22 pm

            Hi Eric,

            You wrote these words to Con: “And do not try hard. You can’t crush my faith.”

            Why do you think that Con, or anyone else here for that matter, is trying to crush your faith? All we are doing is defending ours.

            Talk about crushing, you ought not to ignore the crushing weight of 2000 years of history, during which time the Jews alone among the peoples and cultures of Europe resisted the message of Christianity, though not through lack of Christian effort. The forces of Christianity tried mightily to crush the faith of Jews, sometimes through persuasion, forcing Jews to listen to sermons, but mostly through force.

            Even when Christians abandoned their crude and cruel methods of attempting to crush Judaism, they still can’t leave Jews alone. Christians aggressively and actively target the Jews for proselytization. That is why this site exists. It’s ironic that you feel there is an effort to crush your faith, when in reality this blog tries to ward off Christian missionaries by explaining and defending our position. While it’s a blessing that we can speak our minds freely and without fear, I find it strange that the moment in history that we finally get the chance to answer back, Christians get indignant or feel attacked and threatened. Is it because of insecurity? I can’t figure it out.

            That’s the first point.

            The second point about asserting that your faith can’t be crushed is that you are in effect admitting that no amount of evidence can make you change your mind. This is, in my view, a dangerous perspective to hold because it closes your mind to hearing and evaluating other ideas in any honest and objective way.

            To grow, one must always be open to the possibility that he is wrong. One must have a standard of evidence that, when presented to him, will persuade him to change his mind.

            I have such a standard. My standard is this: a clear and direct commandment spelled out in the Torah. Naturally, no Christian has been able to meet this standard in proving Christian doctrines.

            Do you have a standard of evidence, barring miracles, revelation, and other supernatural events?
          • David says:

            July 10, 2015 at 10:38 pm

            C.R,

            Name one that was a contemporary of Jesus prior to AD 70 that was “deified.”

            And as you know, Jesus himself was not “deified” until centuries later.

            By the way while we’re on the subject of deification, your claims against the book of Revelation are without merit in that there is no warning against claimed deities. Rather there is a warnings pertaining to the anti-Christ. It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.
          • Dina says:

            July 12, 2015 at 1:18 am

            Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20584

            You are confused about where Con stands. On the one hand, you have read his comments defending belief in Jesus to the hilt. Now you are reading his arguments against belief in Jesus as the Messiah.

            I hope Con will forgive me for presuming to speak on his behalf, but Con came to this blog determined to defend Christianity and to set the record straight lest any Christians be led astray by the misinformation spread by this blog. We on the side of Torah engaged him in a heated and lively debate for quite a while. But then Con confronted Deuteronomy 4, and being the honest man that he is, he saw the stark contradiction to Christianity. He has since left Christianity.

            I hope that clears things up for you.

            And Con, was it indeed Deuteronomy 4 that did you in? Please correct me if I got that wrong.
16. Concerned Reader says:

    July 10, 2015 at 2:44 pm

    No David, my logic runs like this.

    The Torah says anyone who changes the Torah from how it was revealed at Sinai to Israel is a false prophet.

    The Torah warns against false prophets, telling us the kinds of things they will do, ie make changes in how Torah is observed.

    Jesus’ movement made changes to how Torah was observed ergo Jesus was a false prophet.

    To add insult to injury, your own NT (in revelation 13) says if someone claims divinity (who is not Jesus,) then they are automatically false.

    I write that example because Tanakh says nobody who appears human is G-d. Your text (or Christian religious majority) amends that warning to say nobody accept Jesus is G-d.

    So, I have the Tanakh telling me that changes in divine service equals false prophet, and Jesus actually making those changes proving that he is false.

    Reply
    • David says:

      July 10, 2015 at 4:27 pm

      Oh my goodness, then you’d have to include just about all prophets starting with Joshua and anyone and everyone who ether added to or modified the Torah as reveled at Mount Sinai.

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        July 10, 2015 at 5:40 pm

        Where dd Joshua and the prophets add or modify Torah.

        Reply
        • David says:

          July 11, 2015 at 10:50 am

          Joshua 6:25,26 for starters

          Rahab was a Canaanite and a prostitute.

          According to the Law of Moses she should have been killed for not one but two reasons. Furthermore according to the Law of Moses her family of Canaanites (her house of all who were with her) which would have including brothers, sister, parents, aunts, uncles, and who knows who, shouldn’t have been allowed to live among the Israelites “ever since.”

          Verse 26 also states that Joshua pronounced a curse before the YHWH against anyone who rebuilt Jericho. The Law of Moses never places such a prohibition on Canaanite cities of conquest. It rather requires the opposite; the destruction of the inhabitants and the living in the cities which are acquired.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            July 12, 2015 at 9:44 am

            You need to re-read all the events, and what was said, regarding entering the land. You apparently have some misconceptions.
    • eric krakofsky says:

      July 10, 2015 at 8:22 pm

      Co, what changes do you see.? Torah tells you to for ex; not to steal. Did Jesus tell you go ahead and steal?

      Reply
17. Concerned Reader says:

    July 10, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    C.R.

    According to your logic, if Moses had upheld the Torah you wouldn’t have needed God to send another.

    According to Judaism’s view of the messiah, the messiah will observe Moses’ Torah impeccably and write his own copy of a traditional Torah scroll (the king’s Torah.) in Judaism who the messiah is or isn’t doesn’t change the fundamentals of Torah observance or the Jewish religion the way Christianity does. King messiah is a human being a descendant of David, a monarch, he is not divine in any sense. He does not need to do flashy miracles. If he rebuilds the temple, accomplishes regathering the tribes to Israel, and heals the breaches in Torah observance (making it followed as it was in former years,) and encouraging peace among all nations, that will fulfill the biblical idea of the messiah.

    Christianity introduced tons of changes into that formula which is why Jews can’t and won’t ever believe it.

    Reply
    • David says:

      July 10, 2015 at 4:29 pm

      You missed the point.

      According to your logic God wouldn’t have had to send another prophet to follow Moses.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 10, 2015 at 5:19 pm

        G-d promised a prophet LIKE Moses G-d said nothing about replacing Moses or the Torah of Moses.

        Reply
        • David says:

          July 11, 2015 at 10:25 am

          C.R.

          God put no restrictions on prophets other than that they not lead others to idolatry.

          Furthermore, it is your interpretation that Jesus “replaced” Moses or the Torah.

          Actually he said just the opposite that all will be fulfilled.

          And you’d have to hold Joshua to the same standard who immediately followed Moses or any of the others who either added to or took away depending on the circumstances.

          For example, you’d have to assign guilt to King David for changing the job of those who carried the tabernacle and its utensils to be singers etc. Obviously there is no longer a need to comply with the Torah instructions to carry a tent when there is no longer a tent.

          Or for that matter Jews today who have changed the Torah in innumerable ways; I doubt that Moses would recognize much of what they do today.

          Reply
18. Concerned Reader says:

    July 10, 2015 at 3:44 pm

    he was seen right after being risen at the tomb.

    He was allegedly “seen” by two of his followers, who the text says were frightened and ran away. (the rest of Mark after that point is recognized as a later interpolation.)

    Have you ever had dreams or seen deceased loved ones, like out of the corner of your eye? If Yes, does it necessarily mean they are risen? Do you believe that huge crowds of Catholics in Egypt have seen the virgin Mary appear? Signs don’t mean anything, unless the goal of the prophecy for which the sign was given comes to pass. Also, Jesus promised the sign of Jonah to the Pharisees (his opponents), but he only allegedly revealed the sign to his students who already believed in him.

    Contrast this with Moses, who did signs in front of his accusers and detractors directly to their face (on a national scale) That said, the miracles didn’t prove Moses, Moses lead Israel to G-d. It was G-d speaking to Moses on the mountain in front of everyone that vindicated and proved him. (Moses said he would deliver Israel from bondage. When he did that, when he accomplished that goal, his prophecy was proven true.)

    Notice, when reading the Tanakh that Israel constantly chides Moses (even when he does his miraculous signs from G-d.) The Israelite people question Moses. (To paraphrase) “have you come here to destroy us? How will we work when Pharaoh is mad at us?”

    When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters. Only after he is vindicated on Sinai (after he has already completed his task of redeeming Israel from bondage in Egypt) does he offer stern rebuke.

    Reply
    • eric krakofsky says:

      July 10, 2015 at 8:34 pm

      Con, “Have you ever had dreams or seen deceased loved ones, like out of the corner of your eye? If Yes, does it necessarily mean they are risen?”

      They ( disciples) ate together, they could touch him( Jesus) , they talked together, not dreamed! It is rather logically impossible that so many people in different places would have the same ” jesus- dream” of seeing him; ( Luke 24;36-40
      “While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
      Then the other gospels give you another encounter; John 21 ( Jesus making fireplace and eats with his disciples.)
      I am not going to list you all the ” dream” encounters , you can find them in the bible.

      “When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters.” But he gets frustrated and looses his temper many times. Read the story.

      Reply
      • Dina says:

        July 12, 2015 at 1:11 am

        Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20583

        This was a response to Con’s assertion that Jesus appearing to those who already believed in him is like someone seeing a loved one after they die.

        Con is making a good point here. A lot of people have sighted Elvis Presley over the years, and the percentage of Americans who believe he is still alive (7%) is more than three times the number of Jews living in the United States. In other words, if the Jews are a significant minority, believers in Elvis are even a more significant minority. (I hope they’re Republicans, for God’s sake.)

        Also, a lot of people have sighted Mary over the centuries, although more people seem to have seen her in medieval times than modern times. Interesting, no?

        The point is: this is why it’s silly to believe someone who claims to have seen a loved one after the loved one’s death.

        You wrote: “But he gets frustrated and looses his temper many times. Read the story.”

        I think you missed this part that Con wrote: “When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters. Only after he is vindicated on Sinai (after he has already completed his task of redeeming Israel from bondage in Egypt) does he offer stern rebuke” (my emphasis).

        Moses’s reaction to the Israelites even when they openly rebelled is nothing compared to Jesus’s anger and vindictiveness at those who don’t accept him even though he never performed the tasks that the Hebrew Bible assigns to the Messiah.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 13, 2015 at 7:16 pm

          Dina, you are trying to defend Con’s view on ‘ seeing the loved ones in our dreams to support the deceiving impression about resurrected jesus. The difference is the gospels do not quote Jesus just seen ‘ in visions’ by his desperate followers , but in encounter with tomb guards, in interaction with others where many at the same time could see him, talk to him , touch him , eat with him. It was not a group hypnosis.
          Another point about Pilate. Just because Pilate was portrayed as cruel etc these facts don’t prove his conversation with jesus wrong. There were more things and more people involved than just a conversation with Pilate. Also as far as documentary and history that you do not find every detail you would like to written down by historians. Are you considering the library of Alexandria as the one of the largest and most significant libraries of the ancient world that was burned down involving loss of thousands famous writings , history records etc? This fact also has to be considered. And for some reason the message of Jesus didn’t die out despite destruction, loos of recorded details , persecution.

          Reply
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 11:17 pm

            “Dina, you are trying to defend Con’s view on ‘ seeing the loved ones in our dreams to support the deceiving impression about resurrected jesus. The difference is the gospels do not quote Jesus just seen ‘ in visions’ by his desperate followers etc.”

            These stories were recorded by the faithful. Remember, the Pharisees did not encounter the resurrected Jesus, whereas God spoke to Moses in front of the whole people, the believers and the doubters.

            If someone were to come along and supersede the Torah, I would expect at least the same standard of evidence.

            A word about Pilate. You have a book whose portrayal of the Pharisees and Pilate run counter to the historical record. There is no reason to believe therefore that this portrayal is accurate and much reason to believe that it is not.
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 13, 2015 at 7:39 pm

          Dina, finishing message about hate..

          I do not remember who exactly wrote that NT conveys the message of hate against Jews. So I am responding here.
          So I have a question. Why so many of Jews that Jesus spoke too didn’t take his message as against themselves? Why didn’t they feel hated?? Why weren’t the first disciples approached with hate before they even knew Jesus, why were crowds coming to jesus for healing and were leaving with joy and hope instead of feeling of being hated? What about thousands described in book of acts who received thee message about Jesus with joy, not hate? They were all Jews! Why did the Jewish crowds welcomed Jesus entering Jerusalem if he was to be known of spreading hate against Jews? Indeed Jesus as a promoter of hate towards Jews. He should have hated himself too as he also was a Jew.
          The only group that felt hated was that small group of Pharisee that he confronted with their hypocrisy.
          Also your comments about Jesus getting soooo angry and more . Read John chapter 6;32-71 to the end and tell me about his anger and hate. You add your own feelings here.

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 14, 2015 at 6:36 am

            Dina I don’t think that the Christian Scriptures portray a man (Jesus) with a full fledged anti-Semitic attitude (perhaps John’s Jesus is more fully developed). Instead I see that it portrays a deep and vindictive animosity toward anyone who sees through his petty charade (much like our Eliyahu Lion) – the insecure lashing out with hatred at those who don’t see things his way – and with time this coalesced into full fledged anti-Semitism. It is not so much a dehumanization of Jews it is a dehumanization of those who didn’t fall for Jesus’ claims
          • Sharbano says:

            July 14, 2015 at 7:01 am

            I wonder how much relates to who and when that text was canonized. Clearly at that time there weren’t Jews who participated in the canonization. I believe it states that J’sus spoke so very much more, Yet, the vast majority aren’t HIS words but the words of Paul. Either they didn’t place such emphasis on HIS words, OR, maybe those other words didn’t align with a preconceived theology. I’ve always wondered what is Not in those books.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 15, 2015 at 7:19 pm

            ypfriend, “It is not so much a dehumanization of Jews it is a dehumanization of those who didn’t fall for Jesus’ claims”
            And his claims were all about; God’s kingdom being near, call for repentance!
            Look at those who do not care about repentance in OT and tell me if God approaches them with open arms and joy.
            Since you see so much hate in gospels about Jesus here are some examples;
            -Jesus’ “hate” portrayed in the gospels via the Pharisees;

            His is approaching repenting sinners with compassion and grace not judgement;
            unlike Pharisees quick to execute judgement. While others are ready to condemn a woman caught in sin, he responds; John 8 ;7-9
            “And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.(…)But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.”
            Matthew 9;36 “Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited (…)”
            Mark 1;40 ( healing a leper) “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, “I am willing; be cleansed.”
            The list can go and go..

            – Is Jesus hating Pharisees or Pharisees hating Jesus?

            Matthew 12;14, Mark 3;1-6
            Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might DESTROY HIM.”

            There are two places in John where the Jews wanted to kill Jesus with stones. Both of these occur after Jesus spoke and made a claim about Himself. The first was in John 8:58-59, and the second was in John 10:30-33. Here is the context of both verses:

            John 8:56-59, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they PICKED UP STONES to THROW AT HIM(…)

            John 10:27-36, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me(…) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all(…) The Jews TOOK UP STONES again to STONE HIM.Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”

            John 5;15-16 ( Healing the paralyzed man)

            “The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
            For this reason the Jews PERSECUTED Jesus, and SOUGHT to KILL HIM, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. ”

            John 9;30-34 ( healing the blind one from birth)

            “The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 WE KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO SINNERS. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
            34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And THEY THREW HIM OUT .” ( the healed one by Jesus)

            Jesus resurrecting Lazarus ( John 11;45-53)The Plot to Kill Jesus

            ” Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. 49 .Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that ONE MAN TO DIE for the people than that the whole nation perish.”(…)
            53.” So from that day on they PLOTTED TO TAKE HIS LIFE.”
            59″ But the chief priests and the Pharisees had given orders that anyone who found out where Jesus was should report it so that THEY MIGHT ARREST HIM.”

            John 12;9-10
            “Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 SO THE CHIEF PRIESTS MADE PLANS TO KILL LAZARUS AS WELL , 11 for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and believing in him.”

            JOHN 19;14-15

            “Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews. But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! CRUCIFY HIM!”Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.”

            Does Jesus respond with anger and hate to those who oppose him?
            Jesus doesn’t get angry because he faces Pharisees but when he faces hypocrisy, hardened hearts.
            John 7;23-24 ” Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

            So is Matthew 12;11-12, 14 “How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.”

            The last point; Jesus dies for others, including Jews. How can he hate them?
          • Sharbano says:

            July 15, 2015 at 8:17 pm

            I realize this isn’t germane to your point but I’m not alone in such suspicions. In reading that chapter 8 of John it sounds suspicious in nature. In these accounts J’sus is treated in the writing as a teacher or Rabbi. The text portrays him as one who is knowledgeable in Torah. Now, if all this is accurate, the approach they take would Not have been as one Rabbi to another. In this circumstance J’sus Should have replied to them that they are not following the prescribed methods in Torah adjudication. But the entire dialog is as if J’sus is answering a person who is NOT a Rabbi. This is just another among many occasions where the dialog just doesn’t fit a Jewish character. It is why I have contended for some time that I don’t believe the text was written by Jews.
            I have also suggested this is the reason so many Xtian ministers literally prohibit Xtians from studying Talmud. In fact it used to be a severe violation for anyone to do so. If Xtians actually learned Talmud, or studied under a Rabbi for some time, they too, would have questions why what is written is in fact written. The dialog J’sus has with so many Jewish leaders reflect the same concerns. In none of the occurrences do these leaders actually Sound like Jewish leaders. I daresay if the Tannaim would have had this Xtian text they would have had a field day with it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Talmud were based upon this text it would be a thousand volumes. But the Xtian really isn’t aware of this Jewish character and therefore doesn’t see the issue with the text, whereas I see issues page after page.
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 10:01 pm

            Eric,

            I suppose in your eyes it is not dehumanizing to call people children of the devil, liars, murderers, killers of all the prophets (a baseless charge), brood of vipers, and hypocrites.

            I beg to differ.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 15, 2015 at 10:59 pm

            Dina, Is it evil to call a group of evil man who oppose any good work Jesus did , healing, opposing those who were healed, and showing definite hypocrisy as Jesus showed them?
            Yes, they also weren’t killers but looked for ways to kill Jesus.
            I thought after reading the examples you would open your eyes and not look through a defensive lenses and message of hate you are soaked with.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 15, 2015 at 11:32 pm

            What you are unaware of in all those examples you gave are the factual errors of those accounts in the history of that time. You say the Chief Priests and the Pharisees got together and called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. There is NO way this could have or would have ever happened. Those who are aware of Jewish history of that time knew how far apart these groups were.
            It’s understandable considering the first books of the Xtian text were written nearly a Generation After the death of J’sus. The text wants to make you Think it was contemporary, but far from it.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:27 pm

            Sharbano, groups that are apart come together easily united by their both advantage and business. None of them wanted jesus alive.
          • Dina says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:30 pm

            The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death. This is a lie peddled by Christian scripture to implicate the Jews rather than the Romans out of fear of angering the Romans according to many historians.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 4:12 pm

            Dina, “The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death”
            Only whose idea was to get rid of him??? Romans didn’t care as they didn’t care about God of Jews,. Read again my email about pharisees hate toward jesus with all listed conversations about plotting to kill Jesus Romans were just the executors .

            If I read from the gospels about Jesus – then he must have been a false prophet. When I read about Pharisees doing this and that – then these events must have never happened. This is your approach. If so , as you admitted ‘ none of the events in the gospels ever took place” why to even want to discuss anything? If I know that Pinocchio is just a fairy tale I do not argue with people whether it was possible for a doll boy to turn into a human, or not.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 7:08 pm

            The Romans didn’t care? The ROMANS DIDN’T CARE????
            How much do you know of Roman history of that time. I believe Dina brought up about Pilate being recalled because of his atrocities. Even the Romans couldn’t stomach him. I once heard a person, whom I know, and found on the internet, give a lesson ABOUT Pilate. He used to try to “educate me” on Xtianity and when he couldn’t answer the many questions he finally gave up. Anyway, the Pilate lesson he gave turned Pilate into the most sympathetic person imaginable. Consider This, if Your text take this Hitler (y”s) type and makes him into a sympathetic image then How can we believe Any of the text. There’s something fishy here.

            Now, compare That with the treatment of the Pharisees in the text Also with the history of that time. The Pharisees had NO authority in these matters. They were at such odds with the Roman government that someone like Pilate wouldn’t have paid them any heed. In fact, they wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans. The entire scenario is suspect. The only knowledge Xtians have of history of that time is Only what is in their texts. So how or why would any of Us believe in those writings.
            I will turn the question back to you. We actually Don’t believe it so why are you here trying to convince us of its validity. It’s Not Only the events that are in question but the content also. Since you, and virtually every other Xtian, have no knowledge of Jewish Tradition you are unable to see the same issues as we do. It’s as if ALL those people recorded in the Xtian text were NEVER EVER part of Jewish Tradition. That includes J’sus followers, and the leaders, and even the history. I could put it This way. You don’t know what we know so how can you possibly overcome this disparity.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 11:43 pm

            Sharbano, “The Romans didn’t care? The ROMANS DIDN’T CARE????”
            I meant Romans didn’t care much about religious beliefs of yours if you didn’t disturb their business.

            “The only knowledge Xtians have of history of that time is Only what is in their texts. So how or why would any of Us believe in those writings.”

            No, you are under-informed. NT is not the only history for us. Everyone is able to reach to any available sources of history they want to. Josephus ‘ accounts are a witness to us too, but about it I will write later .
            P.S cruelty of Pilate is well known. Well known based on the torturing tools they used and well known from the way they treated and killed Jesus.
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 1:26 am

            Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20946

            “Dina, “The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death”
            Only whose idea was to get rid of him??? Romans didn’t care as they didn’t care about God of Jews,.”

            Anyone who claimed to be the messiah, the king of the Jews, posed a direct threat to the emperor of Rome. Messianic claimants were killed by crucifixion, the penalty for a political crime.

            “If I read from the gospels about Jesus – then he must have been a false prophet. When I read about Pharisees doing this and that – then these events must have never happened. This is your approach.”

            Because you believe Christian scripture is the “gospel truth,” it’s hard for you to get my perspective, so I will try to explain.

            First, because Christian scripture is a mixture of truth, lies, and distortion, I cannot say for sure that every single event it records never happened. But I also have no reason to believe that it did. On the other hand, certain events can be shown from the historical record never to have happened.

            When I argue that Jesus was a false prophet based on your scripture, it’s not because I believe he said what your scripture claims he said. My point is to show you that even your scripture damns itself by what it has recorded because it contradicts the Torah. In other words, from your scripture’s perspective, if Jesus said he would give the sign of the resurrection to the Pharisees but did not, then he is a false prophet according to the Torah. From your scripture’s perspective, if Jesus said you must believe in him to attain eternal life, then he was a false prophet according to the Torah.

            I hope that clarifies my position.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 4:23 pm

            Dina, “do you admit the possibility that one can repent and live with God without Jesus. ‘?

            Jesus said:” If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23″He who hates Me hates My Father also.…”

            People usually are encouraged to repentance by Jesus, and they would trust Him he is the Son of God. Those who never heard , can’t be required to know him. jesus is the one on whom God placed all the sin and they simply do not know that.

            “Do you believe that we oppose God?” According to Jesus words; opposing his words is opposing God’s words if you know he is the Son of God that you do not care about. If you do not know who jesus is it is between you and God. I do not judge.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 5:03 pm

            Dina, “Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT”
            Of really does it contrast the teaching??? Wat for their need to bribe the guards who witnessed resurrection? Why not to start keeping record of Jesus with the events like they were?
            No, because his resurrection would convince too many he truly was the one he claimed to be; so let;s change the story to the a ‘stolen body’. Matthew 28
            I am not surprised they had no business in keeping any memories of life of jesus.
            Contrary to that ‘ fairy tale’ that didn’t happen according to you; Josephus had something different to say in that matter.

            To answer together your other email about sabbath sign. You understand me wrong. I do not question whether it is God’s sign between Him and His people but question whether the Sabbath keeper( a person) has to be called a righteous one just because he keeps the Sabbath.
            That’s why I showed you examples from Isaiah chapter 1 that it is not so. God doesn’t say that those whom he speaks about are not being His people but will address the things that are not right even among those who keep the sabbath. And many fell short by their actions and not because they DID NOT keep the Sabbath. You seem to mix righteousness with a sign and being God’s people. My kids will always be my kids and our ‘sign’ is we all live in the same house and our DNA that confirms we belong to each other. But that doesn’t mean they will always act right and believe every word I say. So it is with God and his people who have a ‘sign’.

            “I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..
            It’s like all people having their origin; the same great- geat…..grandparents; Adam and Eve.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 7:16 pm

            I read that chapter 28 of Matthew and I don’t see Any mention of Pharisees. Where do you find it. I looked at the KJV online.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 11:50 pm

            Sharbano, I was referring Matthew 28 to the twisted truth about resurrection of Jesus by the leaders.

            v 11.15 “While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. “
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 18, 2015 at 11:02 pm

            eric This story makes so much sense – when guards need to get out of trouble all they need to do is tell their superiors that they fell asleep on the watch
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 20, 2015 at 10:53 pm

            ypfriend, “when guards need to get out of trouble all they need to do is tell their superiors that they fell asleep on the watch”
            You are deciding for others , everyone would act as you expected, yes? Besides the guards ‘ problem was not feeling like being in a trouble. They witnessed the supernatural and were shocked. There is no place in such situation to fool others ‘they fell asleep’. They gave an account of what they witnessed. Read the gospel.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 20, 2015 at 11:51 pm

            Eric I am just saying that the story sounds ridiculous – you could still insist on believing it – I have no reason to trust the authors of the Christian Scriptures to begin with so this story doesn’t change my perspective – All I am doing is highlighting the weak-spot in this particular story
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 18, 2015 at 8:04 pm

            Sharbano, this will be long as it relates to those history issues.
            “I once heard a person, whom I know, and found on the internet, give a lesson ABOUT Pilate. The Pilate lesson he gave turned Pilate into the most sympathetic person imaginable. ”

            So your conclussions about Pilate are just made based on somebody’s story??? That is reall surprise. You simply build on what others say. I do not see him a sypmathetic person at all and if somebody would say so I would check it up .
            I looked into Jewish history by Josephus ( 4 volumes I have at home) and especially chose to read the chapter relating to that period of time of Herods and Pilate/ 1 century Jesus times). And then I compared it with what you said
            ” In fact, they( Jews) wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans. The entire scenario is suspect.”

            Then I came accross a story in which Josehus describes the situation of Pilate bringing some images into Jerusalem , setting them without a knowledge of people by night (to avoid protesting) knowing Jews won’t approve of the images as their law forbids of making any. Then we read; ” as soon as the people found out came to Cesarea and INTERCEDED WITH PILATE many days that he would remove the images! ( are we not reading about possible confrontation???)
            Then we read Pilate would not want to grant their request but people WERE PERSERVERED IN THEIR REQUEST. ( Does it look like nobody would dare to approach Pilate?) Then we read he sat on his judgement seat gathered the army yet STILL PEOPLE INSISTED’ . The text says’ THE JEWS PETITIONED HIM AGAIN!

            Does it look like what you said??? “Jews wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans.” But to me it looks they would even PERSIST ON something if it was important to die for . Then we read” Pilate threatened them saying that their punishment would be immediate death if they do not leave and stop disturbing him! ” But they threw themselves into the ground ready to die saying they would rather take death willingly rather then having the wisdom of their law to be transgressed UPON WHICH PILATE WAS DEAPLY AFFECTED WITH THEIR FIRM RESOLUTION TO KEEP THEIR LAWS INVIOLABLE and gave in to their request ( by comanding the images being carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.” Josephus/ antiquities of jews , vol 4, / chapter 3.

            You do not measure history by impressions. Pilate was cruel and many times he just went to kill if somebody disturbed his businnes but there were times of negotiations with him as well. And if that one encounter is described then it is obvious that Jews weren’t banned of confronting him and that wasn’t an event one in life. I would write too much, there are many similar stories , I just suggest reading the book.
            Pilate gives up to the demands of Jews in this story, Pilate agrees with the leaders’ demand to crucify Jesus for exchange for Barabas ( Luke 23;23-24); Nothing suspicious and unrealistic to me.
            So are there other events ( in Josephus history) mentioned confirming autentity of existence not only Jesus, but John the Baptist and James
            ( brother of jesus). I heard the stories that Josephus description of jesus in his writings sounds too Christian as it mentions his resurrection and Jesus being righteous wise man, so it is suggested that it was added by later Christians, yes, of course…. I skip commenting that but other fact are undeniable. He describes Herods kindgom falling apart and conclusions and beliefs of people claiming ‘ it must have been God’s judgement for Herod being guilty of beheading John the baptist who was considered as a righteous man and prophet. / Volume 4 , pg 253-6. Josephus makes also mention of his baptism and being a true prophet which agrees with the account of the gospels. And when there was baptism there was a purposes and reason of john the baptist to be at all as a fore- runner before Christ .

            Pilate is also portrayed by Josephus as less quick to judgement if something didn’t bother him personally. But things that disturbed his bussines would result in quick judgement. Since Jesus was not his business I do not see a reason to say his conversation ( in gospels) was impossible to take place. Beside you judge based on a few accounts of his conversation recorded in NT. The interrogation lasted few days not ‘few lines’ of Pilate short sattement. We do not see th e whole picture of cruelty behind the curtains but we read Pilates’ soldiers ‘entertained themselves’ with their brutality toward Jesus.

            Another event described by Josephus is James brother of jesus called Christ. He was stoned for his beliefs. If there was a brother of Jesus that means there was also Jesus known.

            Another familiar even based on the gospels and read in the history; ” fighting and disagreements ‘ among different Jewish groups that were resulting in Romans intervention. In John 11 45-53; we read the following’
            Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation. Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
            So what were the Jewish leaders afraid of? Of the disturbance among Jewish groups; those who believed jesus and those who didn’t would non stop keep confronting each other and attract Romans intervention. No different then with other confrontation ( read in Jewish wars volume 1 in which Romans intervened.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 19, 2015 at 9:17 am

            I have you an Example of ONE such instance. It is a common teaching among Xtians that Pilate was a sympathetic person. That’s why This person taught the same.
            Did you read all what happened in that event and what Pilate DID. That was the first encounter with Pilate. That’s why on further encounters they didn’t confront him.
            Virtually every scholar agrees that the part of Jsus was added by the church. If one reads all of Josephus you find he is a methodical writer. The section with Jsus simply doesn’t fit his writing style. There is a major discrepancy between what Josephus wrote and the Xtian text when it comes to John the baptist.
            The chief priests AND the Pharisees would NOT have convened a meeting in the “Sanhedrin”. Those priests were nothing but stooges of the Romans. And you expect US to believe that account.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 20, 2015 at 10:59 pm

            Sharbano, you complete overlook the message that was in email. I guess you had no answers but confirm; yes, that could have happened. And you also misunderstood my message. i quoted from Josephus completely unrelenting encounter of Jews via Pilate . That story doesn’t show him sympathetic at all for the sake of Christians to prove their point. It shows his as cruel but but also allowing debating if the trouble was too big. Maybe that wasn’t happening too many times but history shows it did.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 21, 2015 at 5:18 am

            You claimed this instance of when he arrived as a proof for the Xtian rendition of Pilate. As it says there in Josephus they didn’t go to him after that.
            In any event you are denying the vast majority of how Xtians teach about Pilate.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 5:04 pm

            Sharbano, the event described in Josephus has no encounter of Christians and is not relating to them. You failed to see the message like it was. Without any christian help and interpretation; the text said; Pilate agreed with jews’ demand and took the images back.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 18, 2015 at 8:09 pm

            Sharbano, “The church expanded throughout the entire world by the sword. It’s how America was founded.
            The church didn’t go into all these countries to sit down and teach the pagans but stole their gold and murdered the lot of them.”
            How was Jerusalem established? How was the land conquered ( the Promised Land??) It doesn’t mean I approve of these methods but I am just showing how it was. I am also not saying God approved of the actions of those who murdered Indians, at least today we are able to print tons of Bibles without shedding the blood.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 19, 2015 at 9:19 am

            You STILL want to make Excuses for what the church did by saying, See look at what the Jews did. It reminds of a child, who has done wrong, who says the other child did so and so.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 20, 2015 at 11:02 pm

            Sharbano, I didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before I even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So I am not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.
            But what about your answer? Wasn’t Jerusalem and promised land conquered with sword? Even In childish conversation the kid would also expect the answer.
          • Dina says:

            July 20, 2015 at 11:38 pm

            “Sharbano, I didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before I even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So I am not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.”

            If that is the case, then why do the Christians on this blog constantly bring up the past sins of the Jewish people, from which they themselves didn’t even suffer? They start with the baseless charge of “prophet killing,” remind us that the Hebrew prophets called us “stiff necked,” and remind us that even after God’s revelation we still sinned with the golden calf–such proof of our wickedness that of course we are blind to the truth of Jesus’s revelation.

            Why are the sins of my ancestors excruciatingly relevant to you but the sins of yours should not be relevant to anyone at all?

            By the way, your analogy of Christians conquering by the sword to the Israelites’ conquest of Canaan fails on two major counts.

            One, God commanded His people to wipe out the inhabitants of Canaan, a commandment so difficult to carry out that in fact the Jewish people failed to fully complete the task.

            God did not command the Christians to impose Christianity by force upon the peoples and nations of Europe (and other continents).

            That is no small difference. Do you think the Jews should have chosen to disobey God?

            Two, once the Jews sort of finished the conquest of Canaan, they stayed within the God-imposed boundaries and did not subjugate or oppress other peoples. They did not impose Judaism by force on the nations that surrounded them. After the conquest, whatever wars they engaged in were defensive wars against invaders and similar circumstances.

            Christians imposed their religion by force on all of Europe, and then went out crusading, killing anyone who got in their way and also lots of those who didn’t. In fact, they went out of their way to kill Jews. God did not command this.

            Christians must, for the sake of truth, confront the moral legacy of their religion. Thus far, Eric, you have resisted undertaking a study of the subject, perhaps because you “didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before [you] even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So [you are] not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.”

            Not digging in a subject that leads to nothing? It leads to truth, Eric.

            If you want to claim credit for the good that Christianity has done, then you must also take the blame for its mistakes.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:32 am

            Dina, to David,

            “But here’s the biggest difference. . The harsh rebukes of the prophets are lovingly studied, and we are inspired by those words to repent.”

            You are speaking here about the prophets who repented ;”The prophets included themselves in the rebuke.”
            But then you have also those people who didn’t repent and those won’t be ‘lovingly studied’ by others but are rebuked even by God. Planty examples in OT.

            “The Hebrew Bible is a book of internal self-criticism”

            That means God didn’t say anything about anybody whoses conduct He didn’t approve? He just let you all firure things out on your own? No! The same way jesus said words against those who treated themselves as self- righteous but with hypocritical character and no need for repentance ( so that they could rebuke themselves later and be inspiration). Paul is an example who addmited his guilt and despite his curel and hating previous attitude towards Christians ( before his convertion) he is not called by jesus a hypocrite. jesus didn’t have to say anything toward those who could admit their mistakes. The attitude of self-righteousness opposing God’s ways of righteousness was what needed the be addressed with a judgement.
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:45 am

            Eric, either you did not understand my response to David or you cannot understand it because of its implications for you.

            There seems to be little point in repeating myself, but who knows? Maybe this time I will shed some light.

            The target audience of the Hebrew Bible is the Hebrews.

            The target audience of the Christian Bible is Christians.

            The Hebrew Bible examines the flaws of the Hebrews, rebukes them for it, and holds them to an extremely high standard of behavior.

            The Christian Bible examines the flaws of the…Hebrews, condemns them for it, and holds them to a double standard of behavior.

            Do you see the difference? Our Bible criticizes us and your bible criticizes…us.

            Christian scripture did not remain in Jewish hands, you see. It fell into the hands of Gentiles, who are treated much more gently than the Jews in the Christian scriptures. Do you see the problem yet?

            The Gentiles were already predisposed to hate the Jews. They now had a sacred text that gave them good reasons for doing so, while treating them so much more gently so as to lead them to believe that they were much more righteous than the Jews. I understate the case.

            I’m sure a lot of Christians don’t interpret their scriptures that way anymore, but you need to realize that devout Christians for nearly 2000 years did interpret their scriptures this way. The result was catastrophic for the Jewish people.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 21, 2015 at 5:35 am

            We could say the same thing about Jsus and the Pharisees. They were asking HIM why he didn’t follow the Tradition. Who is being self-righteous HERE. Who has the hypocritical character. What you say about those people can be said by those people about Jsus.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 5:16 pm

            Sharbano, what tradition he didn’t follow and what was his response? examples please..
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:52 am

            Dina, “Christians imposed their religion by force on all of Europe, and then went out crusading, killing anyone who got in their way and also lots of those who didn’t. In fact, they went out of their way to kill Jews. God did not command this.”

            Were they Christians, according to what Jesus tough or according to their own righteousness?
            Does ‘ conquering by sword ‘ and killing in the name of God sound like Jesus teaching???

            Luke 9;51-57
            And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
            52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
            53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
            54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
            55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
            56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.

            So who were the crusaders? Those who under the name of a righteous one tried to justify their evil actions contradicting what is taught in NT. But you call them Christians, because they were doing it in the name of jesus.

            NT has the answer for you to that too;Matthew 7;21-23

            “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and DO many mighty WORKS IN YOUR NAME ?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU ; DEPART FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS..’
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:56 am

            Eric, you were the one who compared the forcible imposition of Christianity to the conquest of Canaan; I was merely showing you what was wrong with your argument. I suggest you read my comment again because you did not really address it.

            By their fruits you shall know them. If you want to claim credit for the good ones, you’ve got to accept the blame for the bad. After all, that is the standard you hold us to. With all your pointing out our past sins, would you accept the argument that those weren’t real Jews?
          • Sharbano says:

            July 21, 2015 at 5:50 am

            You mean to tell us when ministers teach about the evils the Jews perpetrated it has no effect. I guess all the Imam’s teachings have no effect either.
            You, Yourself have questioned whether or not there were ever righteous Jews throughout all this time. WHERE did you learn THAT. Your own words have condemned you and made you guilty and not a “real Xtian” according to Jsus.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 21, 2015 at 6:36 am

            Eric, Paul, David and all other Christians who are fond of quoting the Jewish Bible to prove how bad the Jews are The Jewish Bible addresses the Jewish people – not the gentiles (Psalm 147:19,20). The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness. The gentiles were given a prophet and he taught them how to look at the Jews. If you want to know how God wants gentiles to see the Jews you need to read Numbers 22,23 and 24 – that is where God shows us how He wants a gentile to view the Jewish people.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 5:36 pm

            ypfriend, real nonsense! “The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness.” \
            Yes, so how do you imagine all the rest of the world to know God??? How would the sinner know God can forgive him , how can He knows how God acts and is like if he never read anything about Him???? How would anyone know what happens to him after death,, what is God’s plan and purpose for the mankind? Real nonsense what you stated!!! Everybody has the same right to learn and read about God as you and learn from your mistakes if it talks about mistakes.
            I wish God put a not before starting Genesis; never intended to be read be gentiles. You expect all the world coming for consultations to you regarding God and you are the only one authorized to know who God is etc. mercy… your message is REALLY pitiful!
          • Sharbano says:

            July 22, 2015 at 5:58 pm

            Well, what does scripture say; Jeremiah
            It shall be if they learn well the ways of My people, to swear in MY Name, as Hashem lives, just as they taught My people to swear by the Baal, then they shall be restored along with My people. But if they do not listen, I shall uproot that nation, uprooting and destroying it – the word of Hashem.
            Point is, learn from Israel, not from your own readings.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 7:19 pm

            Sharbano,
            “What you keep ignoring is the fact that a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments.
            but they will lose their Jewish identity within a few generations.”

            Don’t you think God doesn’t forget who is descendant of Abraham? He doesn’t need an outside mark so He wouldn’t confuse you with gentiles. So they loose their identity before people but not before God.

            “a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments” How many disobeyed commandments qualify him for being called not – righteous?
            You have supported Is 53 that the righteous servant in that chapter can’t be the nation because the nation is shown paying for their mistakes.

            “There is neither Jew nor Gentile”, so those assimilated lose any Jewish heritage”

            By “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor slave etc” Paul means that because of repentance in jesus gentile becomes a child of God and it doesn’t matter who you are. He simply says there is no difference between one child in God and the other whether one was a slave, the was free man, the other was a Jew, the other was a gentile who came to God through Christ.

            “learn from Israel not from your own writings” Israel paid for their mistakes and ‘ what is called my own writings ‘ are Jewish writings about God’s grace.
          • Dina says:

            July 22, 2015 at 7:41 pm

            Eric, what is the point of a covenant nation if they can’t be identified as such? How can a Jew follow God’s commandments to Jews if he doesn’t even know he is Jewish?

            By the way, when Jews assimilate, they eventually lose their Jewishness, because Jewishness is passed only through the mother.

            You wrote: ““a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments” How many disobeyed commandments qualify him for being called not – righteous?”

            A Jew cannot be righteous if he willfully disobeys God’s commandments, but repentance wipes the slate clean. You wrote, “the righteous servant in that chapter can’t be the nation because the nation is shown paying for their mistakes.” You think so because you think righteousness means sinlessness; we don’t accept that definition of righteous. For there is no man who is righteous who does not sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Furthermore, this doesn’t support your interpretation of Isaiah 53, because we always see suffering as a call to repentance. Finally, the suffering of Israel in that chapter is as a result of the sin of oppression committed by the other nations. (I gave you Biblical citations for this in the last comment I wrote on Isaiah 53 which you said you will read when you have time. I am looking forward.)

            By the way, punishing us for our sins is God’s business. It’s not your job to condemn us for them. Rabbi B. pointed out, if you want to know how God wants Gentiles to view the nation of Israel, then read about the incident with Balaam in Numbers.

            “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor slave etc… it doesn’t matter who you are…there is no difference between one child in God and the other…”

            Then what is the point of the special covenant between God and Israel, if there is no difference? What does the idea of a chosen nation mean, in that context?
          • Sharbano says:

            July 22, 2015 at 9:39 pm

            You seem unable to understand the point being made. How can one be a descendant of Avraham if he is No Longer a descendent. This is the point.

            I believe it may be in Galatians where Paul speaks of Jews being removed from the root and Gentiles taking their place.
            Everyone is a child of G-d and Jsus has no determining factor in that. Everyone has that spark of G-d within them, and you may be amazed but this also includes the S’tan.
            Because you think in Xtian chapters you fail to read the contextual narrative. If one is to understand “Your” chapter 53 it is necessary to start at the Start of 52. The entire narrative is about Israel being redeemed from out of the nations and their reaction to that redemption. Simple as that.
            If G-d can be SO clear in his purpose as to name the man Cyrus, explicitly, and call him G-d’s Messiah, don’t you think he would have give a better indication of a man-savior than the most vaguest of attempts. You, and all the Xtians, can claim all you want about how Jsus is seen throughout Tanach but in none of these cases is there any type of direct reference to even a messiah, let alone Jsus.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:17 pm

            Sharbano, children of Abraham are children of faith.
            By the way you seem to include satan in a child of God? Then you do not really understand what it means to be God’s child.
            “Everyone has that spark of G-d within them, and you may be amazed but this also includes the S’tan.” Yes, I am really amazed by your poor understanding of that.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:25 pm

            What YOU fail to understand is that G-d is part of Everything.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:47 pm

            Sharbano, but we have a free will and in that free will our desire for evil actions , and no faith in God do not make us His children. His child is the one who obeys him .
          • Sharbano says:

            July 30, 2015 at 7:56 am

            All are children of G-d, and Israel is His firstborn son.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:21 pm

            Sharbano, God divides them by their spiritual belonging; either by following God or the evil.
            That’s why God doesn’t call his enemy his children.
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 4:01 pm

            Eric,

            “no faith in God do not make us His children. His child is the one who obeys him.” You have a very twisted and harsh view of parenthood. In your view, parenthood is conditional. Well, I have news for you: it isn’t.

            No matter how bad your children are, they are still your children. If they turn out to be utterly wicked and estranged from you, you will yearn for them to change and come back.

            God is the ultimate Father. No matter how wicked a human is, he is still God’s child, created in His image. And God yearns for him to change his ways and return to His Father.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:48 pm

            Sharbano, Did you ever hear God;s enemy being called his children? Only children of the devil which means adversary the same way like satan.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 7:46 pm

            Sharbano, at Jeremiah times people didn’t have books available like nowadays and bible to buy in every store for everybody who wishes.
          • Dina says:

            July 22, 2015 at 7:47 pm

            So what, Eric? They also didn’t have Christian scripture. What’s your point?

            You think Jeremiah was stupid?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:12 pm

            Dina, Jeremiah was talking about his times we are now 2000 + ahead with stores filled with literature about every religious subject so the message is not just spread by tales from person to person but available to everybody who only wishes to know anything about the bible; via internet, books etc, at any point.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 22, 2015 at 9:02 pm

            So, do you Really think you can gain the full understanding by going to a bible store and reading some book off the shelf. It’s NO different Now then it was then. Do you know everything about the United States by reading the Constitution.
          • Dina says:

            July 22, 2015 at 6:57 pm

            Eric, you are a very careless reader. Rabbi B. did not say that God never intended Gentiles to read the Bible. You took what he said out of context by ignoring the rest of his sentence, and I quote:

            “The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness” my emphasis.

            If you see the difference now, then you owe Rabbi B. an apology. If you don’t see the difference, then God help you.

            By the way, yes, the Gentiles are supposed to learn how to understand our Torah from us. God gave it to us, not to you. It’s breathtakingly arrogant for Christians to tell Jews how to understand their own letters from God.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 7:36 pm

            Dina,
            I combined answers to multiple of your statements .
            “With all your pointing out our past sins, would you accept the argument that those weren’t real Jews?”
            When I say real Christians it means followers of Jesus’ teaching which doesn’t call you to hate but even pray for your enemies.
            If you do the opposite and hate and kill , you do not follow Jesus, so how can that person be called Christian? He/she can have a paper that tells them ‘ you are christian, baptized in such and such church , but according to Jesus he /she is not his. ( Matthew 7;21-23)

            Were the ‘bad’ Jews real Jews? According to you Jews are all those descendants of Abraham. Yes? So do they loose their ‘inheritance’ and Abraham being their great- great …grandfather because they sinned? No.
            “If you accept the Torah as true, Christianity doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in its light.”
            I see the opposite . It is based on torah that the price paid for sin is loss of life, ( repeated in temple ‘ ceremonies) which makes blood atoning for sins.

            It is based on Torah that God will send his righteous servant to save the world, by justifying them, that means declaring them not guilty, as he willingly paid for their sins. The nation can’t do that as they themselves need repentance shown in OT.
            Jesus doesn’t tell you to abandon anything. Even in Josephus ( vol 4) and James ( NT ) we read that the first century Jews were law keepers and zealous for ceremonial law that you could not tell the difference who was Jewish Nazarene( the title for the first Christians at that time ) observant and who was not. If they had no problem with understanding jesus teaching and didn’t feel forced to abandon their tradition, so can everyone and not give in in a false argument that NT contradicts Torah.
            ……

            “It was this experience that got me reading a lot about(…) and Christian anti-Semitism”
            Don’t you think it had an impact on you how you view NT? For Jews it is hard for NT to be seen as message of God’s love that He ‘saves’ the world through His servant Jesus, but it is message of hate because of those who misused Jesus words and under his name were killing throughout the centuries. Right?
            ….

            What I meant by ‘Peace with God’ is ‘ our conviction of being reconciliated with Him” so I do not consider it ‘dangerous’ . It is God who gives peace in our hearts and not condemnation. Growing is a life process and we are never done when it comes to growing with God. So of course there are always “higher levels of truth to attain,and you can always strengthen your connection with God.” You still learn to get to know His character etc. so I agree with you.
            …..
            “You shall believe in the Messiah and accept him as your lord and savior in order to live forever” would be a clear and direct teaching. Okay?”
            It says that you should accept what God says , turn from evil and repent and that what makes you to live forever. Since God said He will send a servant to justify us and Jesus dies for us and rose again to justify us – it is our obligation to trust God about this words.

            Jesus is like with Noah story;
            lets say all ( or most) people at Noah time knew Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33 or at least they knew God can forgive them.
            When they saw Noah building an ark I am sure they were ridiculing that idea . Many might have been aware of the truth
            ( the way according to what was told later in Ezekiel 18 ) it is enough for me to turn from my evil ways and I should be fine with God, so what you doing Noah is ridiculous and doesn’t agree with God. No one before us ever needed the boat to be saved. We didn’t hear God telling US clearly from heaven we should support your idea, He didn’t tell us to board your ark so forget.

            If we know that God’s statements and truth is the same for all generations , it is obvious it should be also be applicable for people at Noah’ s times. It should be just fine to conclude; we should just trust God . But God informs Noah of a ‘salvation’ way before His coming judgement will be executed and that ‘salvation’ is an ark. And the boat was really the way to be ‘saved’ from God’s judgement. So it is with Jesus as he paid for all the sins. our acceptance of it is like boarding an ark to be saved from God’s judgement.( which is explained in John 3;16-17. Jesus is not send to judge the world but for the world to be saved. And if I reject that what God provided, I reject my way of salvation.
            ……
            “Messianic claimants were killed by crucifixion, the penalty for a political crime.”

            It was not Roman’s idea to kill Jesus. They were just executors. Roman’s didn’t believe he was the messiah as they didn’t have interest in him so they had nothing to be afraid regarding their political future. They even ridiculed Jesus by putting a sign’ this is your Jewish king .
            ………………

            “On the other hand, certain events can be shown from the historical record never to have happened.”
            Like they say’ lack of evidence is not contradiction of an event. And the more they search now the more they discover of the NT details being truth.
            …….

            ” if Jesus said he would give the sign of the resurrection to the Pharisees but did not,”

            tell me where does it says jesus told them the sign means coming to them personally and showing up before their faces? When he said resurrection is the sign that means the fact of him being resurrected is the sign not the event of showing up before their faces. And according to Matthew and other gospels that evidence was not hidden from the leaders. They are described as being given an account of that supernatural event but let the truth not be accepted and twisted ( as a stolen body) so it can be forgotten so no one else would believe. And here is the answer to your statement why Pharisees had no business to carry on the news about jesus
            “According to your logic, since the Pharisees hated Jesus so much of course they didn’t write anything about him”
            I do not understand you way of thinking;
            “since the Christians hated the Jews so much then they wouldn’t have written anything about them.” You have both believing and non- believing historians who wrote about Jews. Jews are not 1 person that you can find the reason not to write about.
            Jesus was a ‘danger’ to Jewish leaders to be proclaimed as the Messiah so they did not have business in keeping’ the news about him “alive”. Did something change nowadays??? Do Jews have business to teach about jesus their kids? No, because what the reason? It is better not to bother yourself with somebody who seems irrelevant.
            …..
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 23, 2015 at 9:14 am

            Eric According to you there are no real Christians – Jesus taught not to get angry, not to lie, not to lust to turn the other cheek – will you tell me that anyone you know follows these without fail?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:35 pm

            yp friend, of course not all follow that! This is a problem as the teaching itself should lead you to holy life but people do not listen. That’s why you do not blame jesus for Christan’s mistakes but look to yourself if you can follow what he said knowing this is what God requires from us; holy life ( at least as much as we can) which means life in which we love God and do not harm each other but serve each other. But it all focuses on the teaching to be blamed; “teaching is wrong because people do not follow”. That;’ how we get the criticism. How many didn’t follow what God said in OT? The same story.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 30, 2015 at 12:02 am

            Eric If the patient cannot take the medicine – then it is useless. There are two medicines offered here – that of the Pharisees and that of Jesus. You have a 2000 year case study of the effects of both of these medicines – compare.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 30, 2015 at 12:40 am

            ypfriend, yes, we have a medicine. us healed by his wounds. Most world benefits from it. not from Pharisees’ hate toward the one sent by God.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 30, 2015 at 6:31 am

            Eric If you want to know how a medicine works you look at its effect on those who drank it – you don’t judge it by the words of the advertisers and you certainly don’t judge a medicine by the words of those who are competing with it. Why don’t you analyze the case study? No medicine that I know of has such a comprehensive case study available for all to analyze.
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 4:13 pm

            Eric, I urge you to take up Rabbi B.’s challenge: “Why don’t you analyze the case study?”

            You remain in willful ignorance by refusing to study the history, accepting only your NT as your historical source and only a few thin books extolling those Christians who protected Jews. Don’t you think that’s biased and one-sided?

            If you were really interested in the truth you would do an objective study, examining the evidence from both sides and from neutral sources (plenty of historians are not interested in condemning either religion).

            There are a lot of books on the subject. You don’t have to read them all at once. But surely you can start reading, a bit here and a bit there–if you are really committed to the truth.

            And then you might want to consider the following question:

            How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 8:01 pm

            Dina, “How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?'”
            You are talking about me being one-sided. Look at you. Who are the followers of jesus who failed being inspired by him to set high standard? All those misused his words and never did what he said. We do not even call them his followers neither Jesus himself did. But this is how you see us the only Christians ..
            How can you judge that Jesus followers who truly follow his words are less moral than Pharisees? Do you know every Christian to speak for them? Look at the new open museum of the righteous ones open in Jerusalem and tell me who inspired them to give their lives for others to save many. to the point they did?

            By the way jesus said the parable about those who think too much about themselves;
            Luke 18;9-14
            “To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
            “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
            “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 2, 2015 at 12:56 am

            Eric Are you aware that the Pharisees taught that one cannot rely on their own righteousness? Please check out my article entitled “Not By Your Righteousness” – you can find it by using the search window on the blog
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:46 am

            This is another case that sounds suspicious of being authored by non-Jews. There are parts of the Morning Prayer that speaks of “not being as…”. Xtians and non-Jews have used this to attack Jewish liturgy when they have Absolutely No understanding of the intent and purpose. And Once Again the evil one is the “Pharisee”. Are you beginning to notice a trend. I must say, the More you bring up the More suspicious Xtianity sounds.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 8:07 pm

            Dina, “How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?”
            God set the highest standard, even higher the Pharisees can reach. So how is that followers of God in OT also failed so much, after witnessing so much?? Would you blame God for that? So why you seem to blame Jesus ‘unable’ to set a high standard?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 2, 2015 at 12:58 am

            Eric We are not comparing to God’s standard – we are contrasting disciples of the Pharisees against the disciples of Jesus – one community reveres a book that highlights their own faults while the other community reveres a book that highlights and exaggerates the faults of their theological opponents – I don’t see the comparison
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:32 am

            ypfriend, “one community reveres a book that highlights their own faults while the other community reveres a book that highlights and exaggerates the faults of their theological opponents – I don’t see the comparison”

            NT wasn’t written in the middle ages to highlight mistakes of the Crusaders. It wasn’t written in the e20 century to highlight mistakes of Hitler’s followers. But it conveys universal message o all in all times; love God and follow God. If you want to read about highlighted faults of the people from NT times read epistles, Paul wrote it all and he is not dealing with pharisees as they are not a target for it’s own sake.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:22 pm

            Eric The message of the NT is love Jesus and follow Jesus and dehumanize all of your theological opponents (they are blind, the are children of the devil) – of – there is another important lesson that the NT teaches – and that is that the Jews believe in a legalistic, materialistic self-righteous religion and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:47 am

            ypfriend, “Eric You have to judge the whole package – including the instructions If only one in a thousand knows how to drink the medicine “properly” – then the instructions were written poorly” –
            How many knew how to drink from God’s knowledge properly in the OT times???? You again are blaming God . Why so many followed idols etc? God wasn’t clear enough? Neither was Jesus.
            By the way bad info sells quicker. You seem to see all Christians as evil-doers towards jews. Just ‘one’ gets it right and helps the Jew . Is that what you wanted to say?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:26 pm

            Eric You don’t have to guess what I wanted to say – I said it very clearly. You have two medicines – the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Christians Scriptures and the teachings of the Pharisees as recorded in their written works. You also have two communities – one took the medicine of the Christian Scriptures and one took the medicine of the Pharisees. – just look at the history of the two communities – each of them had saints and villains – but still the two communities don’t compare. The excuse that the community who took Jesus’ medicine did not read the instructions right – is irrelevant – if true – it just proves that Jesus didn’t know how to give instructions and the Pharisees did
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 6:59 pm

            ypfriend, y “The excuse that the community who took Jesus’ medicine did not read the instructions right – is irrelevant – if true – it just proves that Jesus didn’t know how to give instructions ”
            You are saying nonsense again. This doesn’t make even a little sense.
            The thing is ‘the hate’ is not the medicine that jesus gives but call to repentance and a message of God’s forgiveness. So all your ‘medicine story’ doesn’t make sense. You mix ‘the hate’ with what the message is really about.
            You simply view Christians through the eyes of ‘ hate’ towards you Jews. You didn’t answer my question; do you view all Christians as evil doers towards Jews? You said I should know your answer. Don’t you have a courage to admit what you think? You and Con said , one gets it right way, there is not too many Christnians who got it right. You might have admit there were a few righteous ones during the war and the list is closed. But I tell you, you closed yourself in that world of prejudice towards us and NT scriptures.

            I suggest you to read the other side of the history as well. Bad stories sell quicker and are better remembered but any good work fades with a time as if it never happened. Beside every single person ( that is called as a one that got it right- according to you) are thousands of people who participated in rescuing Jews which are the invisible ones to you as you didn’t hear of them. Just read Irena Sendlers story that finally came to light in 2000. She was too humble to receive any fame.Her work is not just a single righteous Christian episode that happened. Beside every single kid she rescued of a number 2500 were the same amount of Christians that took care of the rescued ones. In her work that is called only by her single name as if she worked alone are also another hundreds of people of the underground net helping to transport rescued Jews to the safe places. Behind her one name there is a group of – British Christians who organize collection of many to cover all the work done in PL to rescue Jews and drop in from the planes in an appointed place. Behind her single name work there are another hundreds who work as security to switch people and names in case somebody is caught and tortured to give away the others. And this is just irena Sendler’s story that is remembered as just one name, as if the others were asleep. Then you have a similar story with Corie ten Boom . Just a one lady in Netherlands . Did only she ‘get it right’ ? No, behind her family work hiding people at their home there is another thousand of people responsible for hiding 800 Jews in their remote places, a person per family so secure safety. Another number of people are those who take care of the papers to make the traveling/ transportation possible for the Jews not to be caught . And others to sponsor it all. The list goes on.
            There are 6,532 of these single rescue workers just in Poland and nobody knows all the names of the net of co-workers that each person operated with.
            If only 1 person was behind the number of 450,000 Jews rescued in that country we would have 450.000 workers but the number estimated of the ones involved in rescue is at up to 3 million. 3 million of the ‘invisible’ Christians as they had to work unnoticed as if they didn’t exist. Hardly ever Nazi would kill a Christian leader because that would not stop the work of helping Jews. They wanted to ‘break’ the leader under torturing to give out all the names of the the whole net of others that would carry on the work . They knew that behind the leader is not just one name left.

            Denmark and invisible Christan work. I hope you watched a movie. The Danish resistance movement, with the assistance of many simple Danish citizens, managing to evacuate 7,220 of Denmark’s 7,800 Jews, plus 686 non-Jewish spouses, by sea to nearby neutral Sweden. How many people behind that work? Per one person or family you had to have almost equal number of people helping, funds raising was enormous to cover all operation and securing help in Sweden; transporting, feeding, sheltering, papers making, the list is endless. On the other side of the sea- Sweden- another group of Christians helping those Jews to survive. I suggest you watch a movie.

            England; Nicholas Winton saving 669 kids from Czechoslovakia finding homes for these children in England- many of whose parents died in concentration camps. He kept his story quiet for nearly 50 years . He also didn’t work by himself.

            Hungary; Raoul Gustaf Wallenberg with a board of hundreds of co-workers, many of them caught but saving tens of thousands of Jews in Nazi-occupied Hungary.
            Every country would have a story about ‘invisible’ Christian’s work. It is just a glimpse what I put here. In every country almost every town has it’s story .And you won’t hear all the names as many were killed during in their rescue work. I suggest you read and think why why so many got it right. Did Jesus words’ change?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:09 pm

            How about we put it this way. Xtians say their text is inspired. If Jsus is one part god and if this religion is suppose to be valid then WHY wasn’t it written better to begin with. Why didn’t Jsus make himself better understood. If the future is “known” by Jsus he should have known how centuries of Xtians would cause countless millions to die by the sword. OR, will you say that was the intent to have all these people murdered at the hands of Xtianity.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 4, 2015 at 11:26 pm

            Sharbano, the same I can ask you. Why God did not write it better too , so that Jews would not sacrifice their children on the altars and pagan folks would not copy that horrible practice in the long long past ? Don’t you think God wouldn’t know that ahead? Why did He let holy wars to take place and other folks misused the idea for their evil practices as well? God’s word is God’s word, but people will always misuse it . Israel suffered long before even false Christians abused her. If not God’s words were misused then even without any words evil folks would still persecute you.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 11:23 pm

            Eric I have no question that there are many Christians who would risk their lives to save others and many more who would not stoop down to the hatred of people like Martin Luther and John Chrysostom – I am not questioning that. All I am saying is that you have to judge a medicine by the effect it has on those who imbibe it – and those who did hate heavily outnumber those who didn’t over the course of history
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 4, 2015 at 11:10 pm

            ypf, ” Jesus is “explaining” that the reason people reject him is because they are children of the devil – as if there is no moral justification for questioning his ridiculous claims. That is dehumanizing your opponents”

            No, ypf , it is not about that you can or can’t question somebody’s claims and not because of rejection they are called so. It is because of the ACTIONS Jesus judged them and called children of the devil. He spoke to a certain group who not just opposed him or had questions but a group of people who conspired evil against him and wanted to kill him although he called people to repentance and to follow God. . Like he said; “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.” John 8;39-44
            He knew their evil thoughts that they desired to kill him including the one he raised back to life.

            That;s why he is addressing them the children of the devil. “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth.”
            I suggest you first analyze all details when you read instead of formulating such conclusions that do not carry the message that is in the text.

            P.S about those who ‘claim to be Christians and hate Jews’ and outnumber the good ones. I do not call those Christians who kill,murder and hate neither Jesus does . So comparing all people as ‘Christians’ to each other that way doesn’t work.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 5, 2015 at 9:29 am

            Eric John 3:19-21 has Jesus dehumanizing people for not believing him – nothing to do with killing him As for John 8:31-47 – Jesus speaks of loving him and believing him on the one hand and not believing him, not hearing him and wanting to kill him on the other hand – there is no middle ground for Jesus – according to Jesus either you love him or you want to kill him – that is a false accusation PS – I don’t care who you call Christians – we are talking about judging a medicine and those people belonged to the community who drank the medicine
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 5, 2015 at 4:48 pm

            Ypf. “Eric John 3:19-21 has Jesus dehumanizing people for not believing him – nothing to do with killing him .”
            Dehumanizing people ? Is God dehumanizing people when He says they should come to Him and have salvation but they still reject Him so He says they will face His day of wrath one day? Zeph 1;12-15
            The same way John 3 is saying God is offering salvation to all because He gives His son for us. You do not need salvation , you are choosing no- salvation yourself.
            Jesus is not dehumanizing anybody. People dehumanize themselves by rejecting God’s offer of salvation and say ‘we do not need it, we are fine on our own’.

            “Jesus speaks of loving him and believing him on the one hand and not believing him, not hearing him and wanting to kill him on the other hand – there is no middle ground for Jesus ”
            What middle ground are you looking for? You either believe God or not. There is no ‘stage’ between.

            And your statement about John 8:31-47 is wrong base on your incorrect understanding what Jesus said
            ” according to Jesus either you love him or you want to kill him – that is a false accusation” Of course it is incorrect statement ; he is not saying that there is either loving him or wanting to kill him.” Desire of killing him belonged to that specific group of the leaders that he spoke to and they succeeded in that matter later about what they desired about him. ( to be executed) . If you weren’t interested in what Jesus was saying , you had also a choice to turn back and leave.

            I do not care about your ‘wrong medicine’ accusations as it was not what was ‘prescribed’ by jesus to his followers to do. I do not call Assyrian’s actions towards Jews in the past as God’s medicine ‘taken incorrectly.” Call’ a medicine’ God’s words that He says to do and DO NOT assign to it a meaning of something that doesn’t exist.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 5:48 pm

            On the one hand you have (G-d) who says to return to Him and on the other you have a (man) who says “believe in me”. Who do I listen to, G-d, or man. I choose G-d every time. Nowhere in Tanach, where G-d speaks directly, does He say to “believe in a man”, let alone a messiah.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 4:53 pm

            Sharbano, Didn’t God use Moses when He led His people out of Egypt? God said’ I will lead you , I led you out of Egypt although He used a man. The same way He is using Jesus to guide us and Jesus is not adding anything or taking away from who God is. He is the fulfillment of God’s promises regarding our salvation why we can have eternal life and why our sins can be washed away. If I trust God about His message I also trust that His servant .
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 6:18 pm

            The BIG difference IS Moshe told the people they will not believe ME. It is why G-d would reveal His Presence at Sinai, to show it wasn’t Moshe. And Certainly Jsus was NO Moshe. Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 8:10 pm

            sharbano, ” Find a place where Tanach speaks of G-d asking for Israel to return to Him and in that same place says you must believe in a human redeemer.”

            There is a difference between believing in a human redeemer and believing somebody is that redeemer from God. God is showing you that His servant is paying for others for their justification. Your accepting God’s truth about it means you believe in that person being from God. This is what we call ‘believing in Jesus”. Believing somebody’s existence is not a means of salvation. Many know Jesus existed and that doesn’t mean anything. Believing means trusting God in what He accomplished through that servant for us and that equals believing God.
            As far as human redeemer. God always used humans to carry on His will , even to set others free. You may call Moshe a human redeemer as he led you out of Egypt. But that doesn’t mean he takes God’s place, as without God’s will Moses wouldn’t do anything! The human redeemer will be also the Messiah as he is told to take part in Israels’ redemption. And still he is not replacing God because he won’t act out of God’s will.

            As far as 59:9-12 didn’t you confuse the verses??? I didn’t speak about that chapter.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 9:58 pm

            Your belief in based upon being absolved of any responsibility of what sins might have occurred. This is quite the powerful psychological opiate. It relieves a person of any guilt feelings from the sin that brought him to the religion. I don’t recall reading anywhere in the Xtian text whereby a person Has to made amends, payment, or any other forms of recompense for any past actions.

            The Jews, on the other hand, believe and trust G-d Because he Spoke at Sinai, along with the signs and redemption from Egypt. When it comes to expiation of sins, if they are against anyone, the person must first clear that before any atonement on Yom Kippur. Therefore, to me, Judaism appears as a Just and righteous method whereas Xtianity allows a person to take the easy way without any responsibility and any persons harmed are of no concern.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 5:00 pm

            Sharbano, during the Messianic times it is said’ God will be a King over the whole earth and the Messiah will reign as a glorious king. Does it mean there will be two kings? So whom we will have to listen to? Or what a need for two kings? Isn’t God sufficient? Yet He will still reign through a man- His messiah he spoke in various books of Isaiah and Jeremiah. What He will want to say He will say through His King Messiah, we will have to listen to his words as they will be God’s words. That’s how it is with jesus.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 6:24 pm

            Mashiach will be King and G-d is King of Kings, since G-d doesn’t inhabit the earth. The King will be an agent of G-d, the judge of the nations.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 6:28 pm

            Sharbano I am glad you understand that. So is Jesus for us the same way as the king will be during Messianic times.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 8:00 pm

            eric Jesus is the opposite of David David points everyone to God – highlighting his own need for God Jesus points everyone to himself obscuring his own dependence on God with his claims for divinity
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 7:45 pm

            Sharbano, You are trying to get away from facing the answer. Of course altar has nothing to do with drinking blood. I showed you it as an example that altar sprinkled with blood for ‘to purify it’ – if understood LITERALLY would be as ridiculous as hearing of drinking blood which is understood by you almost literally!

            “Once a person goes down the road to say it is G-d’s will that a human can be a sacrifice for man, as the pagans had done, then nothing is out of the question.”

            Let me ask you a question; if you were to die/ be killed and someone comes and says he will die/be killed in your place to save your life, does it sound like a pagan idea???? If you were to be hit by a car and someone jumps in front to save you and he dies it is a pagan sacrifice?
            This is exactly what jesus did. He took our punishment and sins for us willingly as our punishment would be complete death.
            God did not need Jesus dead for whatever purposes, neither He told us to offer him to Himself as a human sacrifice. His act was to willingly carry peoples’ iniquities.
            You have a completely a wrong vision about it.

            ‘Do you think Jsus spoke anything new regarding adultery’
            Of course he didn’t have to add anything new but he needed to give examples of what is a sin to those who thought they did not sin. You can’t speak for everybody. His message is to all people, not to some jews who ‘ won’t sit next to a woman in a bus”.

            “Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.”
            You are kidding. How much do you know your own bible???
            Back to the same story; believing is not only knowing God spoke to Moshe. It included believing Moses concerning the words God spoke to him that included God would take care of everything water, food, etc on the desert but they complained all the time. Here you have a reason why it took them so long to get to a place they were supposed to get in a short time and why so many perished.
            So revealing God’s presence is not the key to belief. God doesn’t just want you to know THAT HE SPOKE but He wants your TRUST .
            “Moshe told the people they will not believe ME”
            Appearing to people wasn’t even the first sign to create credibility! They already had the whole set of wonders ( God’s hand) behind they experienced.
            God confirmed it FIRST with HIS MIRACLES that showed His power over the NATURE and power over LIFE and DEATH and SICKNESS.

            Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you’?” Ex 4
            “Then the Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?”A staff,” he replied.
            The Lord said, “Throw it on the ground.”
            Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. 4 Then the Lord said to him, “Reach out your hand and take it by the tail.” So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. 5 “This,” said the Lord, “is SO THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE that the Lord, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.”
            Then the Lord said, “Put your hand inside your cloak.” So Moses put his hand into his cloak, and when he took it out, the skin was leprous[a]—it had become as white as snow.
            “Now put it back into your cloak,” he said. So Moses put his hand back into his cloak, and when he took it out, it was restored, like the rest of his flesh.”
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 9:29 pm

            You analogy of someone substituting his life is ridiculous in the extreme. It has No comparative value. The analogy of one life for another doesn’t compare to one who is at the hands of punishment. Has anyone ever offered to go to death row in place of a person waiting there. THAT would be a correct analogy.
            Are you admitting G-d didn’t want or require Jsus to die for the sins of mankind. Then all the proof texts, including Isaiah, doesn’t speak about Jsus at all. The “willingness” of Jsus is no different than those Jews who went into the gas chambers. As the Rabbi, and others, have pointed out that Tanach is quite specific that No One can replace another for expiation of sins. Therefore even if Jsus was “willing” it is to no avail.

            My goodness, do you even Read what you paste of another comments. You copied my comment:
            “Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.”
            (Moshe didn’t complain!!!!) yet YOUR reply is “they complained all the time”. I spoke of Moshe and you speak of the Israelites. I made the comparison that Moshe didn’t complain but Jsus DOES complain. No wonder you have difficulty with Tanach.

            Once again you are not grasping the fundamentals. Moshe knew the Israelites wouldn’t take HIS word for it that G-d is telling him all this. Moshe knew that miracles alone are not enough to sustain a nation to believe in generation after generation. If you would have studied the entire Torah you would find in Exodus 6 that Moshe spoke to Israel but they did not heed him. It isn’t until Exodus 19 that Hashem says to Moshe “Behold! I come to you in the thickness of the cloud so that the people will HEAR AS I SPEAK TO YOU, and they will also believe in you FOREVER.” It is BECAUSE G-d SPOKE at Sinai that Jews have accepted Torah from that time until today and have continuously followed that Torah. As with most Xtians you miss the finer points of Torah.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 7:54 pm

            Sharbano, “No One can replace another for expiation of sins.” I “get it” ; it has to be a group death. Jesus can’t die for others but the nation can. Neither Isaiah is then about the nation; we all went astray and you were inflicted for us.” God inflicted upon you iniquity of us all’. v.6
            v.11 ” My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he carries”
          • Sharbano says:

            August 9, 2015 at 8:12 pm

            It was all explained in the long post. I suspect you are now just trying to be obstinate.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 7:58 pm

            Sharbano, “The “willingness” of Jsus is no different than those Jews who went into the gas chambers.” The most insane statement of yours. If Jews had a choice to choose life or gas chambers , were they choosing concentration camps willingly?? I thought you were more intelligent, but that statement you put takes away so much from you.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 9, 2015 at 8:14 pm

            Go back and read that long post. This is what it’s about. Did the Jews walk into the gas chambers under their own power.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 9:33 am

            Eric throughout history, Jews could have bent their knee to Jesus and that would have spared them the horrors of Christian love – it was often a choice if not in every instance
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 8:08 pm

            Sharbano, of course I copied your comment ON PURPOSE.
            “Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.” he didn’t have to express his frustration aloud to the people, it was enough he heard complaining as disbelief was still there and that’s what mattered as God wasn’t ‘pleased ‘ with those who didn’t want to trust HIM.
            I
          • Sharbano says:

            August 9, 2015 at 8:22 pm

            Do you even realize what you’re doing. What is taking place is a “progression of thought”. Your constant feeble attempts are to take one step out of that and isolate it without any consideration for the whole.
            This was all about Jsus and his complaint the people didn’t believe him. It was the same with Moshe, which he knew, and the reason G-d would reveal Himself. Your reply, therefore, is not relevant.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 7:51 pm

            Eric Hogwash! Did God need to speak through David? If you want to understand why we need a human king when we have God then look at David
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 5, 2015 at 11:33 pm

            Eric God proved Himself – over and over again – so if you are rejecting Him you are fighting with the truth. Jesus did not begin to prove himself – so if you question his authenticity you are following the God of truth. If he condemns you for questioning him when it is the morally correct thing to do then he is dehumanizing. No one is saying “we are fine on our own” – what we are saying is that we have everything with God and Jesus cannot add on to what we already have with God. You ask me – what middle ground I am looking for – simply people who do not believe in Jesus because they were never given a legitimate reason to do so John 8:31-47 actually has Jesus talking to people who do believe in him if you believe the Christian Scriptures – it says nothing about leaders – I will take this opportunity to ask you Jim’s question – why do you care if you think I misquote Jesus but you have no problem with Matthew misquoting Isaiah? About the medicine – just do the case study – or let me word this question differently – if someone were to tell you that your child is going to be transported 1000 years back in time – but you have a choice as to which community he will land up in – what will you choose for your child?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 6:24 pm

            ypf, By you misquoting jesus you make him not who he is and what he says. The message is altered to the point of making a true speaker a lair.
            As far as Matthew misquoting Isaiah? I looked at the list at those that the skeptics consider being misquoted. The difference is like with the following 3 or more translations of the same verse , example;
            Isaiah 40:3. They all differ but they all contain the same message;

            “A voice is calling “NASB translation
            “a voice rings out ” JPS Jewish translation
            ” a voice calls out” / Tanakh Art scroll)
            “Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness;( NASB )
            “clear in the desert” JPS Jewish translation,
            “in the wilderness clear the way of Hashem” (Tanach Art scroll)
            “Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God”. ( NASB)
            “a road for the Lord” JPS Jewish translation
            ” make a straight path in the desert , a road for our God.”(Tanach Art scroll)

            All said differently but the same message;
            there will be a voice calling for a certain purpose to clear the way or make it ready for the Lord to come.
            Why Matthew uses his language? The same way different translators use theirs.

            In matthew 3;3 he says ;
            “A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
            ‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
            make straight paths for him.’ said differently but THE SAME MESSAGE CARRIED

            Why is jesus the only way to God?
            The Bible says, “God in Christ reconciled the world unto himself” and “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (II Corinthians 5:19, 21).

            He is the one by whom we are reconciled with God, by whom our sins are covered, by whom we can have our eternal life back that was lost because of sin In Eden.

            I would chose the same community for my kids they are already in, where they can know God and the one God used for our redemption.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 7:59 pm

            Eric Try analyzing Matthew’s quote of Isaiah 7:14 God says you can be reconciled to Him by turning to Him and to Him alone – Isaiah 55:7, Ezekiel 18:28; Malachi 3:7 – Jesus is contradicting God
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 8:00 pm

            ypf, being reconciled with God also includes respecting and listening to those whom God put in charge.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 9:33 am

            Eric Agreed – it also includes rejecting those who speak against His holy word.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 1:55 pm

            ypf, examples of him speaking against God’s holy words?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 2:26 pm

            Eric I gave you an example – I’ll say it again – “no one comes to the father but through me” contradicts Psalm 145:18
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:19 pm

            ypf, ” throughout history, Jews could have bent their knee to Jesus and that would have spared them the horrors of Christian love – it was often a choice if not in every instance”

            It all has to go together. You often give examples of Christian oppression to justify Jewish claims concerning Is 53 regarding the suffering. But you were not cut off from the land of the living due to the Christian oppression. ” through the sins of my people who deserved punishment”

            P.S You won’t go to the Father but die in your sins if you keep rejecting His forgiveness, the way He washed you from your sins through His son. This is what Jesus saying is about.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:38 pm

            Eric The article entitled Good, Bad and Both was written for you – please read it How does one “reject God’s forgiveness” if one trusts in God with all His heart?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:47 pm

            As a matter of clarification. We only speak of Xtians because they have had power for 2000 years. But this doesn’t exclude all the other nations, such as Ishmael, Greeks, and others. If one looks at a map of different nations conquering lands you’ll find it is almost all the same territory. The only differences were the Far Eastern nations. China, for example, never conquered Israel. What is interesting is that both China and Japan gave refuge for the Jews during WWII, whereas the US would lift a finger because they thought they had enough Jews, and Britain, the epitome of evil, wouldn’t even allow ships to dock and sent them out to sea to drown. Britain would align with Arabs to fight against Jews in Israel, all the while Jews were fighting with Britain against Hitler y”s.
            I’m certainly Not going to believe in such hogwash as a “man washing my sins”. G-d does it ON HIS OWN.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:59 pm

            Sharbano, God doesn’t throw His words on the wind . He said atonement is in the blood. You said “I am Not going to believe in such hogwash as a “man washing my sins”. G-d does it ON HIS OWN.”
            A man is not washing your sins. It is God who decides your sins are washed. The same way an animal didn’t wash your sins either at the temple , when it was offered yet God used it in a symbolic manner to point you to some better way He was to provide for you and He did.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:12 pm

            Eric The blood spoken of in Leviticus 17:11 refers to the blood on the altar – not to Jesus’ blood. Also God said that repentance works to cleanse yu of your sins – those words don’t go to the wind either
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:31 pm

            Sharb, Have you ever found a reason for a blood on the altar, if repentance is all what’s needed?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:23 pm

            Blood wasn’t the only method of atonement. You have a dilemma with atonement, sin etc. In the Third Temple all these will be reinstated. Apparently Jsus only works until the Temple is rebuilt.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 9:10 pm

            sharbano, “Blood wasn’t the only method of atonement. You have a dilemma with atonement, sin etc. In the Third Temple all these will be reinstated. ”

            You should have asked yourself a question, why even one of the method like that? That ‘method’ wasn’t deprived of ‘ repentance’ , repentance was there yet still that ‘method’ required blood. Not because God needed it! So what is the other need if not to show you the cost of sin is death? The same truth that you learn from genesis 3. If the sacrifices in the 3rd temple are to be present , they are for the same reason they were present in the first temple although you could just ‘go by repentance’ according to the scriptures. There is that one truth that is constantly repeated in the house of God.

            If repentance itself was enough nobody would have to ever die. If God is promising eternal life to those who follow him, He would not have to let those die at all as they would be forgiven. So jesus is not there because God’s forgiveness is not enough. He is there so that God can raise us back to life through His son who paid for our future redemption. ( which is different than repentance)
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:29 pm

            I guess Jsus will have to die a “second time”, in the messianic age of the Third Temple, and be resurrected a second time, and return a third time.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:37 pm

            Sharbano, once you are resurrected back to life you are resurrected to eternal life with God. While through one man death came to the world , so through one righteous one we are reconciled back with God and sins covered. No need for such a person of a second death of jesus.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:53 am

            This shows a marked difference between Jewish texts and Xtian texts. The true Jewish texts will highlight the failing and what is needed. There would be no purpose, in the long run, to detail all the righteous acts by the righteous.
            What the Xtian text does is the opposite. It tries to lead the reader to see the Pharisee as the epitome of all evil. The only difficulty is that a Jew, knowledge and observant, will see through the facade and realize that Jsus is wanting.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:19 am

            Sharbano, “The true Jewish texts will highlight the failing and what is needed. ”
            Yes and NT highlights you what is needed ;repentance! Turning back to God. It talks about it over and over.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:11 pm

            ypfriend, “Eric If you want to know how a medicine works you look at its effect on those who drank it ”
            Yes, drink it PROPERLY and you will know how it worked for you. You might take it wrong and will be seen as ‘sicker ‘ that before. That’;s why nobody can tell others whether it worked for them or not, only the one who took it knows what is his condition and how it improved. And I am very thankful to God for Jesus ‘that worked for me’.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 2, 2015 at 12:53 am

            Eric You have to judge the whole package – including the instructions If only one in a thousand knows how to drink the medicine “properly” – then the instructions were written poorly – especially when you have a competing medicine that did so much better over the same test period (2000 years)
          • Sharbano says:

            July 30, 2015 at 8:07 am

            There you go again, “the Pharisee’s hate”. It is clear to anyone who reads that they can see the hateful rhetoric by Jsus TO the Pharisees.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:38 pm

            Sharbano, who wanted to get rid of whom? Ask yourself a question? Jesus didn’t plot to kill Pharisees even though he didn’t see their ways righteous. They plotted to kill him. Do not tell me it was because of ;love’ .
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:32 am

            You have just proved many of our perceptions of the Xtian text. You have used the term Pharisee as a collective and THIS is what the Xtian text has brought to the entire world.
            Exactly WHEN was that written about the Pharisees. When Moshe was in the desert G-d said to him to write these words and in that way there is authenticity to the words. Jsus wanted his words to be hidden from view and the writings weren’t done for 50 – 90 years Later.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 7:44 pm

            Dina, sorry but that statement can be read both ways “The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness” my emphasis.” as gentile would only use it for condemnation so better not to read it because they do not understand it .

            But what condemnation do you see when we try to talk about jesus the Messiah in OT? Simply that all people are sinners both Jews and gentiles and they both need a savior and that God provided somebody who paid for our mistakes. And if you insist that ‘ it is you the nation justifying others in is 53 that is when we show you that WE ALL WENT ASTRAY … no difference! It is not to point your mistakes and condemn you!! We do not make you worst than gentiles or the opposite.
          • Dina says:

            July 22, 2015 at 7:46 pm

            Eric, I don’t know what planet you’re living on. Christians often point out our sins in the Bible, for various reasons.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 23, 2015 at 12:14 am

            Dina, “what is the point of a covenant nation if they can’t be identified as such? How can a Jew follow God’s commandments to Jews if he doesn’t even know he is Jewish?”

            God’s commandants rely on these two; love your God and love your neighbors ( that includes no harming each other etc and all the points in the law) . You do not have to be looking Jewish or not to know that. Children of God are children of faith and trust in Him. Even a Jew who doesn’t remember he is Jew can follow that, so he is not lost before God.

            God’s goal in making the covenants was for Israel to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation and by that to be a blessing to others. We know that. While the nation has failed to achieve this goal it will be achieved in a future day for God is sovereign and keeps His promises. It is not because Jews are loosing their identity . In OT times there was no converts to NT teaching through which Israel would loose their identity. God is waiting for the obedient hearts and knows who is His.
            Everything God promised the nation through the covenants will be fulfilled when the Messiah comes to set up His kingdom on earth and rule as “David’s greater Son” (Luke 1.31-33, 20.41-44; so Israel can fulfill its role of being a blessing. (Matthew 23.39; Romans 11.15) It is through Israel that God promised to bringing up the Messiah who will rule with iron road over the nations. It is through him that all will be restored ; Israel and being a blessing. But so far you rejected your messiah because you do not believe he is the one restoring the others not the nation.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 23, 2015 at 6:20 am

            I don’t believe you are grasping what the point is. When it comes to Xtianity if a person leaves Torah and becomes a Xtian there isn’t the impetus to marry a Jew. It is compounded when Paul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Just as it was in Ezra’ time the men took on foreign wives. Their children weren’t Jewish and had to put them away. It’s not a matter of those Jews who became Xtians in the past and their descendants NOT knowing they are Jews but rather they are NOT Jews. They have Severed their Jewish ties. There is a Rabbi at the Kotel who tells Jewish kids to be sure and marry a Jewish girl. He knows the outcome of not doing so.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:22 pm

            Sharbano, just a question; what do you accuse messianic Jews who keep the Sabath? What makes those Jews not being Jews any more to you? What changed in them regarding keeping the law in comparing to you keeping the law? What changed I mean besides them believing Jesus is the Messiah.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:56 pm

            Eric Keeping the Sabbath is a testimony that God is the absolute Master of all – worshipers of Jesus do not believe that God is the absolute Master of all – so their worship makes no sense. Being a Jew means being a witness to the truth of God’s absolute Mastery over all – anyone who worships another being aside from the One Creator of heaven and earth has violated the covenant between God and His people
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 30, 2015 at 12:34 am

            ypfriend, “worshipers of Jesus do not believe that God is the absolute Master of all” you have a poor understanding about what we believe. Lack of words..
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 30, 2015 at 6:27 am

            Eric Worshipers of Jesus do not believe that Jesus was a subject of God, worshipers of Jesus do not recognize that as absolute Master, God dictates where it is that our hearts should be devoted to and it is not our choice.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:00 pm

            ypfriend, Jesus clearly said; ” my Father is greater than me” john 10;29 and many similar like that, he goes to the Father, he depends on the Fathers , he doesn’t do anything apart from the will of the Father, he doesn’t change Father’s ways, he leaves decisions to the Father. And he is reflection of His glory , so unless you understand who is Jesus you will know that our devotion to him doesn’t diminish the Father.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 2, 2015 at 12:49 am

            Eric Of course your devotion diminishes the Father – because ALL devotion belongs to the Father
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:24 am

            ypfriend, you do not understand what is meant here by devotion. You can’t speak for others who feel gratitude for jesus for what he has done , not understanding it . You can’t decide for others judging them whether they prize God whether not. I suggest you worry about yourself , not us.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:20 pm

            Eric I love this – You come here to preach that we (the Jews) worry about ourselves because we don’t understand your devotion. Eric – some questions if I may – How many Jewish missionaries come knocking on your door trying to get you to change your beliefs? how many pamphlets, videos, booklets does your community receive from Jewish organizations trying to get you to redirect your devotion? How many Jewish organizations do you know of that make it their effort to try to convert Christians who are not interested in converting out of their faith? I don’t care to understand your devotion – all I know is that the missionaries of your faith tell me that my devotion is misdirected – that’s all I need to know – because my devotion belongs to One and to One alone and that is not good for the missionaries
          • Sharbano says:

            July 30, 2015 at 7:47 am

            I haven’t seen a messianic who kept Shabbat as prescribed.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:14 pm

            Sharbano, where do you live, on which planet? So many churches reserved Saturdays for Sabbath sermons for messianic Jews. And by the way it is time for fellowship with God. Can you speak for others that their time with God spent is not the right way’?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:14 am

            You mentioned to Yisroel about anyone “who wants to know Him”, and “no hidden information”.
            Here you mention so many churches reserve Saturday for Shabbat. Reserving “a day” is Not being Shomer Shabbat. Do these messianics adhere to the 39 Melachot. Not only do they Not but decry Jews for doing so. So, how can one have “fellowship with G-d” if he doesn’t do what is required of him.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:12 am

            Sharbano, Now you are trying to decide for others whether they can or qualify to have relationship with God. It is everybody’s personal thing between them/you and God , so judging for others not knowing their heart is pointless .
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 6:33 pm

            You made the big deal regarding churches who “reserve” Saturday. A person either observes Shabbat or he doesn’t. These people I spoke of Do Not. It means nothing when a person says they observe Shabbat by observing a “rest day”.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:06 pm

            Sharbano, I do not care about ‘reserving a day’ but I am saying they wanted their Sabbath day be on the sabbath day. And do not judge based on you encounters to say that’s how they do it.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:19 pm

            Then you cannot call it a Sabbath day. THAT has a certain definition and certain requirements. What it amounts to is a redefinition of the word. These people Chose that day because it is defined in Torah. If a person is going to “follow” Torah then it SHOULD be done According to Torah.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 4, 2015 at 11:18 pm

            Sharbano, then argue with those Christians Jews who do keep sabbath if you have problems with how they do things.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 8:47 am

            I didn’t bring up the point about Xtians moving their worship day to Saturday. You were making it sound like these Saturday worshipers were “keeping Shabbat”. All I have done is point out how this is Not the case. So, it’s Your problem for bringing it up in the first place. I only responded.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 5, 2015 at 4:17 pm

            Sharbano, the key was to see what do you have against Messianic Jews who keep the Sabbath as you keep coming with weird arguments that they can’t be worshiping a true God because they believe jesus is their Messiah. You use these repeated phrases that they do not follow the Torah. like they do not keep the law etc They did not become lawbreakers because they believe in jesus.
            And your scapegoat argument that they believe jesus is god doesn’t work here either, as many treat him as it is written ; a Son of God.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 5:42 pm

            You’re still on this. If they believe that Jsus is a god then YES they are NOT worshiping The True G-d. If they do Not believe in this then that part isn’t the problem. But if they Say they are keeping Shabbat and do Not observe it according to Torah then they are Violating Torah. It is as simple as that.
            I recall a Rabbi asked one of these believers that say they keep Shabbat and whether or not they light the stove and cook on Shabbat. They said, of course, we have to eat. He showed them in Torah that one is Not to kindle a fire on Shabbat. He was Unaware of that prohibition. Torah is quite specific that says one Must “prepare” for Shabbat prior To Shabbat. Since Shabbat is likened to Olam Haba and as one prepares for Shabbat, so must one prepare for Olam Haba. If one is to “observe” the day he should do it accordingly. Now, if one doesn’t Know how to properly observe it and, upon learning, does it, then all is good. As Torah prescribes, “do these”. This person, upon learning, DID change what he had done in the past and subsequently did as prescribed. There are those, though, who will scoff at such information and call it “legalistic”, “Rabbinic Judaism”. These are the rebellious ones which is spoken of.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 23, 2015 at 6:34 am

            Eric Your problem is not with me – it is with God – I quoted Scripture to back up my point you just got emotional Psalm 147:19,20; Deuteronomy 33:4; Zechariah 8:23
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:30 pm

            ypfriend, emotional? rather critical to the nonsense I heard if you meant what you meant in your previous message.
            ” I quoted Scripture to back up my point you just got emotional Psalm 147:19,20; Deuteronomy 33:4; Zechariah 8:23″
            These verses do not back up your concept that the bible is not to be read by gentiles. Ps 147 says you were the nation God introduced his law ( what is good what is wrong) and Zechariah is about messianic times. All people are to learn what God said and are able to read and distinguish wrong from good, so they do not need a tutor to the book.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 29, 2015 at 11:59 pm

            Eric Where does it say the word “introduced” in Psalm 147:19,20? Show me anywhere in the entire Jewish Bible where it says that Gentiles are to learn to distinguish good from bad by reading the Bible? By the way – what does the word “inheritance” mean? (as in Deuteronomy 33:4) – if you have an inheritance does it mean that I can have it too?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 30, 2015 at 12:38 am

            ypfriend, you make everybody stupid and yourself all knowing. We all can learn from what was written about Israel in OT. We all can learn from the ways how God led you and from your mistakes and promises of God relating the future . And the thing you reject God’s testimony in NT makes you extremely unreliable source of knowledge to follow.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 30, 2015 at 6:30 am

            Eric It is not a question of stupid or smart – the question is – who is the intended audience of this book? The book itself makes the answer to this question very clear in many different ways – you are refusing to consider the question – not on the basis of Scripture – but because you find it insulting
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 6:33 pm

            ypfriend, “Do you really believe that Eric? That everyone who doesn’t accept Jesus then he must be a “lover of darkness”? And that those who do accept him were “lovers of light” even before they accepted him? ”

            First you have to understand what is meant by the word ‘ light’ in John. It is not just physical person of jesus. It is his words he is saying about coming to God and turning away from evil , trusting in God and following Him. And he is showing that example.
            All those who do not come to that light jesus is showing them , are those who relay on their own righteousness and justify their deeds according to their own ways. And they might seem all right to them but they are not God’s ways.
            John doesn’t use the word ‘ lovers of..” in the sense of being ‘ in love’ with your deeds whether wrong or good. So ‘lovers of darkness ‘ are not those who necessarily ‘love’ doing wrong ( but there are many!) but simply people relying on their own ways of righteousness as it is more ‘comfortable’ to them. Who came to Jesus’ light in the gospels? People who weren’t afraid to admit they are not perfect and that their own righteousness wouldn’t make them right with God. They realized the truth about themselves and jesus showed them that they are forgiven. The Samaritan lady in conversation with jesus found out he knew everything about her. He told her she had 5 husbands and the man she lived with wasn’t her husband. She wasn’t a ‘lover of darkness ‘ because she enjoyed doing what’s wrong. She lived the life which seemed convenient and comfortable to her that way. And after being confronted with the truth about her life she didn’t deny the details. She didn’t run away from light in which her deeds were exposed. So she came to Jesus’ light and realized ; ‘ yes this is me’ and believed him. That also didn’t mean she was a ‘lover of light’ before in the sense of ‘loving’ righteous life before. So ‘lovers of life or darkness’- as you put it – have more to do with being willing to expose yourself before God and not relying on your own deeds believing they make you righteous.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 2, 2015 at 12:48 am

            Eric So is that what you believe – that everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus is relying on their own righteousness?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:06 pm

            ypfriend. you can have 2 people talking and the third party can still understand what the conversation is about if you have all information exposed. The same way God is dealing with you , the same way He is dealing with others. There is no secret in any move and all what God is like He would reveal to anybody who wants to know Him. The same way He dealt with people in OT the same way he would deal with everyone who wants to know Him. No hidden information reserved only to you that others can’t learn from.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 2, 2015 at 12:51 am

            Eric Good analogy – but the third party listening in must accept that the target audience is someone other than themselves and try to understand the message with the mind-set of the target audience In this case that means understanding the mentality of the Jewish nation – and how this mentality is maintained throughout the generations
          • Sharbano says:

            July 30, 2015 at 8:05 am

            SO, because a Jew is Not a Xtian they cannot understand their own words. The problem YOU have is you have to rely, first, on translations, and second, not having all the information.
            Furthermore, there is NO “G-d’s testimony” in the Xtian text. That is based upon assumptions. Nowhere in the Xtian text does it relate, “…and G-d said to (a person) saying…”
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:34 pm

            Sharbano, “SO, because a Jew is Not a Xtian they cannot understand their own words. : Nobody says you do not understand your own words.
            You do not have to become a christian to understand Is 53. Even non messianic Jews see clearly the text as spoken about Jesus, they do not see themselves there
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:19 am

            An educated Jew, in Torah AND history, WILL see that Isaiah 53 is about Israel. STILL you ignore the context that begins in 52. Not only does My Servant refer to Israel in many places but it is even More pronounced in the introduction to 53, which begins in 52.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:36 pm

            Sharbano, God speaks directly through jesus. He put His words in His son . John 14;10 That’s why jesus is more than just a prophet and called ‘ word of God’.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:23 am

            Many have come and said they speak in G-d’s name only to be found false. In Torah, Moshe spoke words that G-d spoke, NOT what was in his heart. THERE is the difference. And That is why Moshe told G-d the people would Not believe in him alone. So G-d Spoke To The People. Did this happen in the Xtian text.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:15 am

            Sharbano, I already showed you God would not support a flash prophet with resurrection into everlasting life
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 20, 2015 at 11:59 pm

            Eric The root cause of the evil still sits on your library shelves – if you don’t study the evil of those who taught you what to believe – you will be passing on these same mistakes to future generations
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:55 am

            ypfriend, I am not in danger to pass anything to other generations as I do not follow others but the words of jesus who tells me NOT to hate and he doesn’t tell me to bring a sword to anybody’s neck because they do not believe.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 21, 2015 at 1:03 am

            Eric You cannot honestly say this if you don’t study the past – the roots of Christian Jew hatred
          • Sharbano says:

            July 21, 2015 at 6:24 am

            What was the purpose of those swords. It started with the Greeks where nations attempted to sever Judaism from the Jew. Xtianity learned that method wasn’t working. Then came the burning of the books of Jews. Judaism was Not to survive. If they couldn’t destroy all the books then censoring would be a method of ending Judaism. And also came Disputations. In all, the purpose was to allow a few Jews to remain to show Xtians how the nation was cursed. Xtianity had a rude awakening when Israel was established. This was Not to happen, but it did. Even newer methods had to be employed. Nowadays there is no more hate by the sword, because this is the “love generation”. It is the “summer of love”. In all this history there is the same end result. Make Jews into Xtians. Whether a Jew dies by the sword or by assimilation the result doesn’t change. “There is neither Jew nor Gentile”, so those assimilated lose any Jewish heritage. They don’t have little Jewish children. Just as Western civilization claims a Greco-Roman heritage, that heritage hasn’t changed. It’s goal is to make everyone “Greek”, Jew and Gentile alike. Xtianity has adopted this heritage. There isn’t a sect of Xtianity, messianic or otherwise, that doesn’t aim for this goal. What kept the Pharisaic Tradition alive all this time is what is fought against, whether by sword or by love.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 9:59 pm

            ypf, “Jesus is the opposite of David David points everyone to God – highlighting his own need for God Jesus points everyone to himself obscuring his own dependence on God with his claims for divinity.”

            How can that statement “I do nothing on my own” John 5;19 obscure his dependence on God??
            Jesus very specifically said he credited everything to the Father for everything he did or spoke . Nothing was done of his own will by God’s . John 5;19
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 9:38 am

            Eric Jesus sends mixed messages – on the one hand you have statements such as those you quoted on the other hand you have statements in which he equates himself with the father. The underlying message of Christianity is that everyone “needs” Jesus. David sends no mixed messages – no one ever walked away from the Psalms thinking that this is about David – on the other hand no one ever walked away from the Christian Scriptures thinking that this isn’t about Jesus
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 2:01 pm

            ypf, yes all need jesus as through him God provided us His redemption. If you put ‘God’s redemption’ ‘ our atoning for sin ‘ in the place of the name of jesus you will get it while we all need it if.
            Not all psalms were exceptional about david and that was understood by ancient jews whose accounts you reject, as they are too ‘Christian like for you. Many were understood as conveying messianic note, messianic application, events relating to the times of the messiah.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 2:30 pm

            Eric No – Jesus makes himself an article of devotion – no “means of redemption” in the Jewish Bible is an article of devotion And you accuse me of rejecting “ancient Jewish” accounts – where did you pick up this idea? what accounts do I reject?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:38 pm

            ypf, Midrash, Talmud is full of messianic application to certain psalms and Is 53. Do you believe them the commentaries left by the jews in the long past concerning those messianic applications? They were not all correct but they carried lots of message we know now.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:47 pm

            Eric I teach the same – why do you accuse me of rejecting these commentaries? – I wrote about this in Contra Brown in the section entitled “what did the rabbis say?”
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:40 pm

            ypf, My “devotion” is no different than when it will be towards the king in the messianic times. jesus is never asking to put him above God , above the Father.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:06 pm

            Eric the devotion to the Messiah is a branch of our devotion to God – as I explained in the article entitled “Yearning for the Messiah”
          • Sharbano says:

            July 21, 2015 at 5:21 am

            YOU don’t want to “feel guilty” but in typical fashion YOU want the Jew to feel guilty. This is the method Xtians use to bring people to Jsus.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 22, 2015 at 5:14 pm

            Sharbano, you still messed the point ‘YOU don’t want to “feel guilty” but in typical fashion YOU want the Jew to feel guilty. This is the method Xtians use to bring people to Jsus.”

            I said I do not feel guilty of crimes I did not participate in; of the crimes done by others who even lived before I live. I can be sorry for what others did and condemn the actions but I can’t feel guilty for them. Is that clear?

            I do not remember what that statement of your related to that we want Jews to feel guilty. Guilty of what????? If we read in NT that a group of leaders gave on Jesus their judgement and wanted him dead, It doesn’t mean I blame you or other Jews for that. I also do not blame Jews for their fathers mistakes written in OT. Everybody is responsible for their own actions. I do not put all into one sack like you do; that we all hate Jews.
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 1:46 am

            Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20949

            You quoted me thus: “Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT.”

            Then you proved my point by quoting slander of the Pharisees from your very NT mentioned above. It’s astonishing! You totally missed the point.

            According to your logic, since the Pharisees hated Jesus so much of course they didn’t write anything about him, then since the Christians hated the Jews so much then they wouldn’t have written anything about them.

            You have to completely ignore human nature to believe that the Pharisees hated Jesus so much that that’s why the didn’t write anything about him. Human nature is such that we can’t keep strong emotions bottled up. Certainly, a whole people for generation after generation would not be able to keep every single person from writing even one hateful word about Jesus. The reason the Pharisees didn’t write hateful words about Jesus and even the Christians who persecuted them isn’t because of their remarkable self-restraint.

            It’s because they didn’t hate Jesus and even their tormentors, although by the time the Talmud was written Christian persecution of Jews had begun in earnest.

            The reason Christian writings contain so much anti-Jewish venom is that their authors hated Jews.

            That’s how human nature works.

            The truth is, your view of the Pharisees, which you learned from your scripture, bears no relationship to actual Pharisees then and now.

            About the Sabbath as a sign: I agree with you that it’s possible to outwardly keep the sign but not be following God’s ethical and moral commandments, and yes, the prophets warn us not to perform rituals with empty hearts but with hearts full of love for and service to God.

            What you keep ignoring is the fact that a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments. Therefore, for a Jew to keep the ethical and moral commandments is not enough; he must also observe the Sabbath and all of God’s other commandments. (It’s also true that for a Jew to keep the ritual commandments is not enough; he must also observe the ethical and moral commandments.) I do not know why you insist that the two are mutually exclusive. One can do both, as have many Jews throughout the generations. The Sabbath is the sign God gave us as an eternal sign between us of our covenant. Nothing that you said negates this point. The ones who have faithfully observed the Sabbath and faithfully passed that observance on to their children are the ones who are the keepers of the covenant (and yes, the faithful ones observe it with their hearts; it’s not an empty ritual, not at all–and if you think so then you must not personally know any Orthodox Jews).

            ““I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..”

            The point is–the sign works. Messianic Jews and other non-observant Jews are also descended from the Jews at Mount Sinai, but they will lose their Jewish identity within a few generations. That’s what history and the statistics (Pew Research Poll) show, like it or not.
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 1:48 am

            ““I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..”

            I noted my ancestry in response to something else you said. I can’t remember what it was, but I think your response changes the topic.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:46 am

            You may Think no one wanted him alive and disparate groups would combine for such an end, but this just isn’t the case. Since you rely SOLELY on your book, in isolation, you are literally unaware of the historical accounts. The Pharisees were at great odds with the Romans, and the Sadducees were nothing short of stooges for the Empire. There would have been No unification on the account on any one individual. You assume, according to what is written in your book, that J’sus was someone who had contact with the majority of the population. According to the numbers his interactions were with relatively few people. Because of your isolated reading you are unaware of the much Greater following that Rabbi Akiva had. HE was much more influential than could ever imagine.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 3:41 pm

            sharbano
            “simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”
            You said; It depends upon your meaning of Oppose. If that is in conjunction with questioning then there is a problem.
            Questioning or rejecting what God said. If he says’ repent, you say’; no’ you oppose Him, it is logical.
            That’s what jesus addressed in the gospels; opposing him was opposing God as he was not speaking in his own name but what the Father send him with. call to repentance was not his idea but God’s call.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:03 pm

            First of all, how will one know whether or not G-d is saying repent. I see G-d’s actions virtually every day of my life and it takes on many many forms and methods. It’s not questionable because it is too apparent. The examples I heard some Xtians give is coincidental at best.
            To your point. Opposing him was opposing G-d. Well, say J’sus. That’s what HE says, and WHY should we believe Him.
            Everything Has to be “according to Torah”. If it is Not “first and foremost in Torah” then it has to be weighed by THAT standard. Our first writing comes from Moshe. He says G-d sent me and has to inquire of His name. He Knows, going back to Avraham, that he will be asked who sent him, being that he was raised by the Egyptians. From then on Moshe didn’t just dictate what the people were to do etc. Each and every time it is record, G-d said to Moshe, G-d told Moshe to tell the people, saying… Etc. It is the same with the Prophets. They all write that G-d told them to speak THESE WORDS. Nowhere is this found in the gospels or by Paul. All of it are their own words and none attribute it to G-d, “saying This to them”. None of it follows the Torah standard which G-d, He, Himself set forth.
            Another facet comes to mind. Does J’sus EVER even ONCE say to the people. OUR Father. I only recall him saying “My Father”, as if he is speaking to crowds of non-Jews. This is an interesting matter to digest. It May shed even More light on the authorship.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 11:14 pm

            Sharbano, “Does J’sus EVER even ONCE say to the people. OUR Father. I only recall him saying “My Father”,

            “(…)but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'” John 20 ;17
            Jesus doesn’t say ‘thus says the Lord (…)” but he says instead; ” It is written(..)”
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 4:01 pm

            Sharbano
            “I cannot count the times I’ve heard that “believers” are Not to question these matters. To do so is to be guided by the devil, which, by the way, is a concept foreign to Judaism, but prevalent in pagan culture.”
            First thing; I do not know where you take your info from about what you said; as it completely contradicts what NT says. Since when we are just to accept stuff without thinking???
            All epistles are a call to learn from the scriptures, to study, to test, to check even yourself whether you really trust God. Far away from what you said.

            “To do so is to be guided by the devil..” which you do not believe it exist, so how can we be guided by a spirit that doesn’t exist???
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:25 pm

            Well, maybe you need a little history. About forty years ago I decided to contemplate the Xtian texts. I bought a Bible, a well known reference one, Schoffield maybe. Anyway I studied it for a couple three years. In the evenings I would listen to a high powered station out of Mexico that played a good number of evangelists. The more I studied, the more I listened, the less it made sense. There were contradictions upon contradictions. Well I thought maybe these guys just didn’t have it right. I found several Xtian radio stations that had well known ministers. These too couldn’t seem to ever deal with questions.
            Before all this, I should have mentioned, my Dad was doing contract work and did the job for a local church’s minister’s house. They became somewhat friends, for awhile anyway, and we would discuss matters and a couple of times he became literally Angry because he didn’t have answers. This is the start of where “believers are taught” comes from and continued with every subsequent ministry.
            Years later I would watch televangelists mainly for entertainment. Then, a few years ago I came across a local Xtian radio station and listened for awhile. I finally became bored with it. On all these occasions my main interest was to see if anything New would be taught, or anything deeper, or even better explanation. In ALL this time nothing has changed. The same arguments that trace back to the era of Disputations are still the same. In all this time there hasn’t been a single case that I have found where any further Torah knowledge has occurred. The only change is the relationship to the Jewish community. Other than that it is the same.

            There may be differences in congregations but all those I was exposed to were exactly the same.

            What I said about the devil is its a Xtian idea not found in Judaism.
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 11:55 pm

            Eric, you don’t get it. I don’t believe any of those stories. I don’t believe Jesus performed miracles and I don’t believe the Pharisees bothered him.

            I look at the big picture as it pertains to my own history: how did the various messages of the gospels affect the fate of the Jewish people throughout history?

            The verses that I cited were used by Christians to fuel hatred and to justify the actions that followed from that hatred. It’s disingenuous for you to accuse me of being soaked in a message of hate. I’m trying to open your eyes to the damage your scripture has wreaked upon my people.

            You are the one who refuses to actually study the history. I recommended many books that explain what took place and that are not even written by Jews or by people who are hostile to Christianity (with the exception A Moral Reckoning which was written by a secular Jew who is not sympathetic to any religion, all the other books on the list were written by devout Christians or Christian clergymen/theologians).

            It’s pointless to have this discussion when you stubbornly insist on remaining ignorant of history. We can’t have an intelligent conversation if you don’t have the facts.

            Here is the list again, for brevity’s sake without the subtitles:

            Christian Anti-Semitism by William Nicholls
            Holy Hatred by Robert Michael
            The Anguish of the Jews by Edward Flannery
            Constantine’s Sword by James Carroll
            A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson
            The Origins of Anti-Semitism by John Gager
          • Sharbano says:

            July 16, 2015 at 6:57 am

            There’s another strange thing about your references. How many demons were there among all these people. Was it a plague of demons upon the people. This sounds Really really suspicious. Not only that it seems we have a number of “Dead People” lying around. This too sounds suspicious. It’s contrary to Jewish customs.
            All these miracles sound all well and good on the surface but when one examines the claims more the more they sound suspicious.
            Now, in the context of appealing to a Gentile, non-Jewish audience of that time,Then one can imagine this corresponds to Their belief system. To a Jewish audience it all rings hollow. Maybe that is the reason this theology spread so fast among those Gentiles and very quickly died out among Jews. We do know who the followers of this J’sus weren’t educated. One only has to look who he chose as disciples. For some reason J’sus didn’t want ANYONE who knew their Torah. Another suspicious revelation.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:18 pm

            Sharbano, yes, so much suspicion that you create yourself as you hate our scriptures.

            P.S And the birds are also not mentioned in the gospels while people were talking outside so I guess the events’ couldn’t have taken place as birds are always a part of outdoors.( and are not mentioned)
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:04 am

            What YOU see as hate is nothing but the issues that cannot be resolved. By your contention it would be the Rabbis of the Talmud hated Torah. There’s much in Talmud where the question is asked, Did Rabbi so and so actually say this. The Xtian, on the other hand, want to believe in all their teachings Without question. I cannot count the times I’ve heard that “believers” are Not to question these matters. To do so is to be guided by the devil, which, by the way, is a concept foreign to Judaism, but prevalent in pagan culture.
            I have heard Xtian ministers teach and the best it can be described is storytelling. Have you ever been taught a Parsha by a Rabbi. OR, been in a Yeshiva setting. Those who have were astonished and taken aback. They had never seen such a thing. But that IS a part of Jewish culture. This is why you, and others, come to places like here, and become frustrated when your perceptions are not taken as is. From YOUR perspective all is well and good. There is nothing to question. It is as it is.
            There is a good analogy. At a time when I would watch movies I had seen one of the Star Trek movies. It is the one where they are searching for Shaka-ri (god). The scene is this entity wants the Starship in order to leave. Well, Kirk in his usual manner, in a Jewish way, asks the question, “Why does ‘god’ need a starship”. In typical fashion, McCoy (like a Xtian), tells Kirk, “You don’t ask ‘god’ for his ID”. This entity asks Kirk, WHO he is. Again, Kirk, asks a question, “Don’t you know, aren’t YOU god”. It is through those question they find Truth. That scene highlights the Jewish approach. THIS is how we determine truth from falsehood. This entity didn’t measure up to the truth and if it’s from G-d it has withstand scrutiny.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 16, 2015 at 12:09 am

            Eric We have the book written by Jesus’ followers and we have many books written by the Pharisees. The books written by the followers of Jesus put in some compassionate and humble things about Jesus – but they dehumanize anyone who opposes him. The argument is that if you oppose Jesus that proves that you are a child of darkness, a child of the devil and blind – there is no room for honest debate, there is no respect for the moral requirement to question claims such as those presented by Jesus. The books written by the Pharisees give us a completely different picture than the one we get of the Pharisees from the Christian Scriptures – and the teachings they taught and the lives they inspired were the polar opposite of the hateful cruelty that poured out of the pens of those who revered Jesus and the Christian Scriptures. I challenge you to find one respected Pharisee teacher who spewed as much hate as did John Chrysostom and Martin Luther.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:15 pm

            ypfriend, people can use anything against others and twist any innocent text and make it a book of hatred towards anybody they want to. You blame NT , look at OT and see how much is used from there by ignorant people for their evil purposes. Examples; Muslims and their holy wars and killings in the name of God.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:36 am

            Eric So why is it that the Pharisees haven’t produced a Martin Luther or John Chrysostom?
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:57 am

            You can say More in One sentence, with a more profound impact, than I can in long paragraphs, one after another.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 3:26 pm

            Sharbano, first of all Christians do not ‘produce’ anybody. You can produce your own philosophy based on the same text and it will still differ from others or original message in the text. Every person’ decisions and actions are their own responsibility. Furthermore Martin Luther started on his own opposing the teachings of so called church fathers and doctrine of Catholic church. He brought back many things into light but still he was not following what Jesus is showing in the gospels. His antisemitism together with others so calling themselves Christians is not a product of Jesus teaching at all.
            You measure Christianity based on peoples mistakes not on teaching in the gospels .
            Just because a person decided to kill in the name of God it doesn’t make the Bible a false book or a source of evil.
            We can ask the same why Abraham produced such people like Muslims believing that by killing jews they go to heaven? Was it what Abraham taught? No! but because they believe in Abraham and added lots of twist and disfiguration of the truth and in their religious book – it doesn’t make Abraham a source of all middle eastern evil.

            Here is as example of a story when some of Jesus ‘disciplines suggest Jesus should ask for sending a fire on the town that didn’t repent. What is Jesus answer; ” good idea Peter , go ahead?????”

            “And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
            But he turned, and REBUKED THEM , and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
            For the SON OF MAN IS NOT COME TO DESTROY MEN’S LIVES, BUT TO SAVE THEM . And they went to another village.” lUKE 9;54-56

            DOES Jesus TEACHING SOUND LIKE MARTIN LUTHER’S?????

            “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” Matthew 7;21-23
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 5:45 pm

            The problem is you have created a double-standard, one for the Jew, and the other, a sublime one for the Xtian.
            Speaking of Islam. It may very well be that They learned their violence From the Xtian. Surely you ARE aware of the Xtian presence in Arabia Before the time of Mohammed.
            In any event both those religions lack a true knowledge of Torah. Both religions have a distorted view of it. Take slavery for example. Xtians believed they were following the Bible when they pursued this activity, since it IS an institution in Torah. But neither religion knows what that involves. It’s the same as “eye for an eye”. etc. G-d never intended for the nations to have that knowledge. If that were the case in past times there could be those claiming to be Jewish and no one would know. As it says in Tehillim.
            He relates His words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. He did not do so for any other nation such judgements – they know them not.

            Your story of James and John also rings of suspicion. It would be unlikely that any observant Jew would have suggested this. I still maintain when a text is written nearly a generation after the events it causes doubts. It would be like Torah was written After Joshua’s death.
            Speaking of J’sus though
            He did say, Those who are my enemies and will not allow me to reign over them, then slay them in front of me” He sounds quite radical.
            Again, the same with Matthew. It was one of the LAST books written. There was an individual, James Tabor, as I recall, who actually did a study on the order of the books. When they are Read in the order written a person will find that Xtian teaching “evolved” over the years.

            When it comes to the Hebrew Bible Everything that was written was written contemporaneously.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 10:58 pm

            Sharbano, This is a messianic statement , it should not surprise you ;
            ‘He did say, Those who are my enemies and will not allow me to reign over them, then slay them in front of me” He sounds quite radical.” Zechariah 14 ; 12
            Such ‘ radical action’ will take place at the deliverance of israel at the beginning of messianic kingdom.
            Right now all still have time of grace , time to repent before it will be too late. And for now his call was; “pray for your enemies.”
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 11:03 pm

            Sharbano ” I forgot to paste it ; Zachariah 14’12 “This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.” Here you have that ‘radical’ sounding judgement you also heard from Jesus. It is relating to those future times.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:20 pm

            simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?
          • Dina says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:24 pm

            “simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”

            Eric, you’ve been arguing on this blog and interacting with religious Jews for a very long time. Based on your interactions with us, do you believe that we oppose God? Do you believe we are children of darkness? Is that what you are saying?
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:07 am

            It depends upon your meaning of Oppose. If that is in conjunction with questioning then there is a problem.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:37 am

            Eric You may be a wayward child – but you are still a child
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm

            ypfriend,
            “simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”

            First you have to be his child to be called his child and you do not stay all the time in your ‘waywardness’ but the Father is waiting for you to repent and come back.
          • Dina says:

            July 15, 2015 at 11:25 pm

            Right, and I would also add this: Eric said that only the Pharisees felt hated. But the real, historical Pharisees did not feel hated; they simply couldn’t care less. The problem began when the rantings of Jesus’s followers against his supposed detractors fell into the hands of gentiles who were already inclined to feel hostile to the Jews. Then these dehumanizing statements were used to fan the flames of hatred into a raging bonfire of anti-Semitism.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 15, 2015 at 11:43 pm

            And, in addition. During this time he supposedly walked the earth, there were the Tannaim. If the Jewish Sages of those days all had such a hatred for J’sus they certainly would have mentioned something about it. I would think there would be many entries in Tractate Avodah Zarah.
          • Dina says:

            July 16, 2015 at 12:04 am

            Sharbano, I’d like to expound on your points for Eric.

            The chief priests belonged to the Saduccees. The Pharisees and the Saduccees would never have gotten together to confer on anything, as they did not like and distrusted each other.

            That’s why Paul’s claim that he worked for the Sadducean high priest yet was a Pharisee is really incredible, as in, not credible (not as in amazing).

            Furthermore, if the Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT and continuing with the church fathers and down the centuries, who poured their venomous hate of the Jewish people into 1.5 thousand documents (according to Holy Hatred by Robert Michael).

            Just google “early church fathers antisemitic” to get a sampling.

            The fact is, the Pharisees weren’t self-restrained; they were indifferent. They didn’t have a thought to spare for Jesus because he really wasn’t that famous, well-known, or that big of a deal like the NT would have you believe.

            What is remarkable, though, is how little hatred the Pharisaic Jews expressed toward their Christian oppressors several centuries after Jesus when things started to heat up.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:25 pm

            sharbano, you mean Jewish ‘paparazzi’ were always present with every conversation Jesus had with a group of jewish leaders? I see… They had no advantage to proclaim all over he was possible Messiah in case somebody would believe. If the leaders themselves wanted the ‘walking evidence’ to be wiped away from this earth, including the resurrected Lazarus there was no reason for anybody to talk about his fame.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 17, 2015 at 6:35 am

            Paparazzi?? I don’t see the applicability of that term as its use doesn’t compare to the events of that time.
            Maybe there wouldn’t have been all these issues if it weren’t for the church’s decision on what to include and what Not to include. In addition you are looking for understanding in the isolation of just those which are included. As a result you are “assuming” that those ‘leaders’ would want to conceal any evidence and not let it see the light of day. This is another misconception of Jewish Tradition. It just Does NOT work that way. This is why the text is suspicious. What’s recorded in your Xtian text could be argued against, as has been going on here. If there were a fear of people there would have been much written to counter what was taught. Jews don’t use ignorance as a means to an end. Ignorance breeds a falling away. We DO see WHO and the TYPE of people J’sus CHOSE for his followers. THIS, Should, be instructive. Apparently his arguments couldn’t convince the knowledgeable. As it is today. The only recourse was to attribute it to “blindness”. But this is in defiance of Torah.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 16, 2015 at 11:29 pm

            Dina, Jesus had an encounter with a certain group of pharisees that opposed him in the town he was, not all nation’s ones . So others didn’t have to care.
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 14, 2015 at 9:18 am

            Yisroel obviously again you don’t know Torah nor the Prophets nor the Psalms

            As a Yehudi if you are really one … You failed to bow down to the Lord Messiah which in my book is a grave sin against the will of Elohay

            But Psalm 110 reminds you what will happen to all the enemies of the Messiah. In case you forget here it is again:

            A saying of YHWH to my Lord,
            “Dwell(return) at My right hand,
            Untill I set your enemies a footstool to your feet.”
          • Yehuda Yisrael says:

            July 15, 2015 at 8:28 pm

            Mr. Lion, concerning Psalms 110, I am confused why you come to the conclusion that the Melchizedek priesthood relates exclusively to jesus/yeshua/yahushuo/yahawishiwashy/whatever…I am not convinced that it refers to jesus/yeshua at all…But I have no problem with it having a Messianic connotation to it as well.

            As you acknowledge, you will find in the Talmud that Abraham, King David, and even the Messiah are called as being fulfillments of this Psalm. One of the most striking commonalities between King David and Abraham is that they both “crushed kings” with the help of Hashem. This directly correlates with Psalms 110:5, which explicitly states this:

            Psalms 110:5. The Lord, on your right hand, *has crushed kings* on the day of His wrath.

            Now Mr. Shapira, during jesus’s/yeshua’s lifetime, did jesus “crush kings”? Was he successful in defeating his enemies? Were his enemies “made a footstool at his feet”? (Psalms 110:1) Clearly not! Your jesus/yeshua was killed and failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies outlined in the Tanach. As it stands, jesus has fulfilled none of Psalms 110 in any tangible sense. You can argue that he will fulfill it in his supposed “second coming,” but to claim that jesus has fulfilled any of this Psalm would be completely baseless as it stands…

            Another oddity about your understanding about this “Melchizedek priesthood” is that you believe that jesus’s/yeshua’s bloodshed “atoned for the sins of the world.” Where in the Tanach does it state that the Melchizedek priesthood achieves atonement via the blood sacrifice? The only priesthood that was given this divine instruction that I know of was the Levitical priesthood…If you could find a passage in the Tanach which states that the “Melchizedek priesthood” achieves atonement via “blood sacrifice,” then maybe your position would make a little more sense. But as it stands, you appear to be baselessly asserting that this Melchizedek priesthood has “superior atoning power” in comparison to the Levitical priesthood, when there is nothing in the Tanach that indicates that the Melchizedek priesthood deals with blood atonement at all! I hope you will consider these concerns.

            Shalom
          • David says:

            July 21, 2015 at 10:41 am

            Dina,

            You wrote:

            “…why do the Christians on this blog constantly bring up the past sins of the Jewish people, from which they themselves didn’t even suffer?”

            My response:

            Haven’t you figured out by now that I (and probably others like me) are merely responding to the self righteous hypocrisy, slander, predjudice, anti-Christianism hate propaganda, error and sometimes outright unsupportable lies written by you? And it is mostly you by the way, not others.

            Have you ever seen me for example just start out for no reason with comments pointing out faults of Judaism out of the blue? No you haven’t. It’s always been you or those who behave like you (but usually you) that have made some statement in which I’ve responded showing the hypocritical nature, or prejudicial nature, or error, etc. And my reply’s (usually based on Hebrew Scripture) to your anti-Christian comments are always related to prejudice I’m countering (such as for example your latest venture into the “obsession” (your term) Christians have with life in the age to come in which they are “restricting” people from entering whereas Judaism does not (according to you)).

            And haven’t you noticed that when I do this, you’re always surprised and offended that I don’t just accept your trash talk? Then you act like the offended one, demanding an apology because I bring up facts of the Hebrew Bible which you are uncomfortable with.

            You want to just spew forth your hate speech unencumbered by the reality of the facts as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. So then you try to portray me as the instigator when in reality it is you who starts.

            Easily over half of all of your comments are of an anit-Christianism agenda.

            So it’s time to look in the mirror (which you despise I know), but how is your anti-Christian writing any different than anti-Semitic writing from extremist Christians? What gives you the right to spew hate speech against Christians and then condemn me and others for fighting back with the facts of your own hypocrisy?
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 11:00 am

            David,

            This is not an argument; it’s a character assault. I presented arguments backed by either Biblical citation, historical evidence, or reason, or all three in some cases. I presented statements that you made that you failed to similarly substantiate.

            Everyone knows that when you are losing a debate you attack your opponent’s character.

            You don’t like the subject matter, and that is fine with me. But you also don’t have a response, and guess what? That is just fine with me, too.
          • David says:

            July 21, 2015 at 10:50 am

            Yisroel,

            You wrote:
            The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness.

            My response:
            Really, then what makes you think the NT was written for Jews to condemn God’s witness?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:05 pm

            David
            No one is reading the Christian Bible to condemn Christians – we are reading the Christian Bible to show you how it encourages you to dehumanize those who disagree with you
          • Dina says:

            July 21, 2015 at 12:17 pm

            Which is what David has done do me: paint me as a dishonest, hateful, bigoted, twisted, and evil person so he can dismiss my arguments. It absolves him of the moral duty to actually look at the substance of what I am saying.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm

            I do think what governs many in the Xtian world is the part where Jews supposedly say, “upon us and our children”. This is used as an indictment against succeeding generations of Jews. Anyone who doesn’t admit this is the case is fabricating a deceit. There are just too many in too many walks of Xtianity that see these words, and all the ills Jews suffer, as being at the root. And another point, if many of these Xtians were to actually “admit” persecution ‘By the church’, by real Xtians, it would expose their Own anti-Semitism that lies just below the surface. In these times it’s just Not fashionable. It wasn’t fashionable at one time in Germany either, but when it Became fashionable virtually everyone joined the party. After the Shoah it was no longer in vogue to be against Jews in any form. All one has to do is look where we were, Then, and where we are, Now. It has once again Become fashionable in many, many places. As it was in past times, when it becomes fashionable and in vogue, there will be many who will join the party. Many times it begins with those who are the most pious. As R’ Singer puts it so well, messiah cannot, or will not come until the Jews recognize “him”. Since the Jews aren’t doing their part they are “holding up the show”. They will not wait forever for their party to start. THEN what will be the reactions by “real Xtians”.
19. David says:

    July 10, 2015 at 4:31 pm

    Moses doesn’t get angry at them

    That’s the whole reason he was prevented from entering the Promised Land.

    Reply
    • LarryB says:

      July 10, 2015 at 5:54 pm

      Sorry to but in but I thought it was because he struck a rock instead of talking to it.

      Reply
      • David says:

        July 11, 2015 at 10:17 am

        Larry B,

        Actually Moses got angry with the people; he struck the rock in his anger and in doing so didn’t maintain God as holy before the people for which he was punish.

        Regarding his anger on other occasions:

        He also smashed the stone tablets at the foot of the mountain in his anger and organized a killing by sword within the camp to punish those in the golden calf incident.

        And in Numbers 16 Moses in his anger petitioned God not to listen to those standing against him, and said “Pay no attention to their offering.”

        Reply
        • LarryB says:

          July 11, 2015 at 11:51 am

          David
          I looked at the scripture in my book and nowhere does it say that Moses was angry.
          It does say the crowd wasn’t very happy. If I remember correctly previously Moses was commanded to strike the rock, this time he was told to speak to the rock. Why was he told to speak to he rock? The people were about to enter the promised land.

          Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          July 11, 2015 at 3:55 pm

          Did it ever occur to you that he crushed the tablets so Israel wouldn’t worship the tablets as a relic?

          Reply
          • Eliyah Lion says:

            July 11, 2015 at 11:09 pm

            Con you are becoming more extreme. Moseh broke the tablets because carnal Israel prostituted themselves with a golden calf. Imagine a beast being worshipped like the Hindus. They broke the Covenant in a preemptive manner so Moseh full of zeal broke the tablets as a sign the New Covenant was being broken from the on-start…delaying therefore any union from the Elohim with the people…Stiff necked people used to their bondage and the pagan influences would have to earn by the hard way to obey, love and be faithful…
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            July 12, 2015 at 1:51 am

            Eliyahu You contradicted yourself (or should I say – your “ruah holy” contradicted itself. Either admit that you made a mistake or recognize that you can’t begin to expect to be taken seriously
          • Sharbano says:

            July 12, 2015 at 9:46 am

            You apparently haven’t actually studied those events. As with most in Xtian circles you have made assumptions, possibly based on Hollywood and its complete distortion of events. But this is typical of that industry.
20. Concerned Reader says:

    July 10, 2015 at 5:15 pm

    By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides?

    The fact that you even have to ask this question Eric shows how off the path you are man. The only reason you even know about noachides, or the Ger, (righteous non Jews) is by reading the Hebrew Bible, the Torah of Moses. The whole context of the written bible, (the very time frame and historical period when it was given to the people of Israel Genesis-Deuteronomy in writing) is during the Sinai covenant where Israel was commanded to observe the statutes in all generations. There was no written Torah before Sinai, no recorded history of Abraham before the Torah was given.

    Eric, what lies? Yes, your new testament claims Jesus is the word of G-d. (John 1:1) that he rose from death, etc. but your revelation chapter 13 proves that even FALSE TEACHERS AND MESSIAHS CLAIM THIS TOO! THIS PROVES ITS NOT A TRUSTWORTHY CLAIM IN AND OF ITSELF. Not just your text (revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians,) but your classical Christian theologians say this, and history proves it. Men want to be considered as though they are G-d himself and want other beings to serve them. Therefore the reason I don’t believe in your book is because the Torah contradicts that idea outright. Human beings (in appearance) or in reality ARE NOT G-d. A miracle proves nothing!

    Why do I trust the Jews? Because it is their bible, it is their historical chronicle, they are the ones entrusted with the Torah and its observance, the covenant, and the law. Your apostles say the Torah points to Christ, therefore we can test that assertion from Torah. Torah is not pointing to your Jesus or to Christianity, so its rejected.

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      July 10, 2015 at 5:45 pm

      {Why do I trust the Jews? Because it is their bible, it is their historical chronicle, they are the ones entrusted with the Torah and its observance, the covenant, and the law. Your apostles say the Torah points to Christ, therefore we can test that assertion from Torah. Torah is not pointing to your Jesus or to Christianity, so its rejected.}

      The answer is in Psalms 147
      He relates His Words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. He did not do so for any other nation; such judgments – they KNOW THEM NOT.

      Reply
      • David says:

        July 11, 2015 at 10:08 am

        Then you of all people who put emphasis on the Torah should take your direction from the Torah and not non-scriptural commentary which adds significantly to the Torah’s Noahide reference for your guidance.

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          July 11, 2015 at 2:45 pm

          Hey David, what do these verses mean to you? Numbers 11:16-17 Exodus 18:25-26 Deuteronmy 17:9-13 Nehemiah 8:8

          What do you make of these verses ESPECIALLY in light of Mathew 23:1-3?

          Then Jesus said to the CROWDS (who may not have followed him) and TO HIS DISCIPLES : 2 “The teachers of the law and the PHARISEES sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4

          The Torah tells you that G-d himself gave some of Moses’ spirit in judgement to the judges, and that they should be followed.

          Reply
21. Concerned Reader says:

    July 10, 2015 at 5:16 pm

    Sorry, David* typo

    Reply
22. Concerned Reader says:

    July 10, 2015 at 11:26 pm

    It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.

    Extrapolation? You mean from verses like the following.

    And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: AND ALL THE WORLD WANDERED AFTER THE BEAST. (Christian commentaries say kingdoms/kings are interchangeable in this chapter.)

    4 And they WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON which gave power unto the beast: and they WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking GREAT THINGS and BLASPHEMIES; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    What blasphemies against G-d will this beast utter? According to 2 Thessalnians 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he “AS God” sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that “he is God.”

    Daniel tells us about a false leader too. Daniel 7:25 “He will speak against the Most High and OPPRESS his holy people and try to change the SET TIMES and THE LAWS. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.”

    Do tell me how this is an extrapolation. There is no warning about people claiming to be deity? Are you nuts? ITS RIGHT THERE! Just read it!

    Reply
    • David says:

      July 11, 2015 at 10:02 am

      C.R.,

      #1
      You are responding to something I didn’t write as if I wrote it. At best that is a straw-man and at worst you are being deceitful.

      My actual post is copied below at the bottom of this post. As you can plainly see it says nothing about Paul and 2 Thessalonians. My post copied below is a response to your rant specifically against the book of Revelations which you falsely claim is a warning against one who claims to be God which was actually just a side issue for me. In any case, you didn’t address your baseless attack on Revelation which I exposed.

      #2
      The character in Daniel does not claim to be God.

      Furthermore, are you now using the NT (2 Thessalonians in this case) to provide an interpretation for the Hebrew Scriptures as in Daniel as if you are a Christian? If not then why are you attempting to do so? Why are you using writings which you don’t even believe in to interpret that which you do? What makes you think you have judged either correctly?

      Put up the verse in Daniel which claims to be God. The second problem was that it has to relate to one of your claimed Messiahs which you claim are no different than the mainstream Christian claim for Jesus.

      #3
      The prince/king of Tyre is a prophesy of Ezekiel regarding a future King of Tyre. It is not a prophesy of the Jewish Messiah or prophesy of a prophet who claims to be God.

      The challenge was in response to your wild claim that there were (I believe you said somewhere at some point thousands) false Messiahs who claimed to be God.

      Good effort though. Keep trying.

      Here is my post that you were feigning a response to but didn’t actually.
      “C.R,
      Name one that was a contemporary of Jesus prior to AD 70 that was “deified.”
      And as you know, Jesus himself was not “deified” until centuries later.
      By the way while we’re on the subject of deification, your claims against the book of Revelation are without merit in that there is no warning against claimed deities. Rather there is a warnings pertaining to the anti-Christ. It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.”

      Reply
23. Concerned Reader says:

    July 10, 2015 at 11:29 pm

    What about G-d’s warning to the Prince of tyre who claims he is a divinity?

    Reply
    • Concerned Reader says:

      July 10, 2015 at 11:45 pm

      http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes Epiphanes: “god manifest.” Look at the coin. It’s Antiochus as ZEUS! Your saying the books don’t warn against deity claims? HA HA HA

      Reply
24. Concerned Reader says:

    July 11, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    I’m only quoting Your NT books (and the historic Christian Church interpretations of texts like Daniel and these other books by these Christians themselves,) because they warn people about people who make claims to deity. They only make the one exception to this claim in Jesus’ case, ie it’s ok for Jesus to claim deity, but nobody else can. I am showing that MOST Christians are being inconsistent in judgement on this issue because the Torah itself says NOBODY No person WHO IS A HUMAN IS G-d IN ANY SENSE. Nobody in Daniel claims divinity? Umm, the King does? Also, he tries to worship Daniel, even whilst he acknowledges that HASHEM is the true G-d.

    I realize David, that you are a Unitarian, (so you reinterpret or read the NT differently) but that is irrelevant in this case because the majority of Jesus followers, and the historic Church commentators of early centuries are not Unitarian. They teach Jesus is divine. Even Unitarians violate Torah when they say that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY. That is in direct contradiction to what the Torah teaches.

    Reply
    • Paul Summers says:

      July 21, 2015 at 5:17 am

      Hello CR

      Just seen this one. You say King Nebuchadnezzer claims divinity, can you help me with this one.

      Thanks

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 21, 2015 at 1:04 pm

        Sure Paul. To answer your question, Isaiah 13:4 And you shall bear this parable against the KING OF BABYLON, and you shall say, “How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one! דוְנָשָׂאתָ הַמָּשָׁל הַזֶּה עַל מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל וְאָמָרְתָּ אֵיךְ שָׁבַת נֹגֵשׂ שָׁבְתָה מַדְהֵבָה:

        Verses 12-13 are part of this parable brought against the king of Babylon.

        12How have you fallen from heaven, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. יבאֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם הֵילֵל בֶּן שָּׁחַר נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ חוֹלֵשׁ עַל גּוֹיִם:
        the morning star: This is Venus, which gives light as the morning star, הֵילֵל being derived from יהל, to shed light. This is the lamentation over the heavenly prince of Babylon, who will fall from heaven.

        You have been cut down to earth: You, Nebuchadnezzar, who would cast lots on nations. You would cast lots on them, on the kings, who of them would serve you on such and such a day, and who on such and such a day. Our Rabbis, however, expounded this to mean that he would cast lots on the kings for purposes of pederasty.

        13And you said to yourself, ‘To the heavens will I ascend, above God’s stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north. יגוְאַתָּה אָמַרְתָּ בִּלְבָבְךָ הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶעֱלֶה מִמַּעַל לְכוֹכְבֵי אֵל אָרִים כִּסְאִי וְאֵשֵׁב בְּהַר מוֹעֵד בְּיַרְכְּתֵי צָפוֹן:
        above the stars of God: Israel.

        on the mount of the assembly: The mount where all assemble, i.e., Mount Zion.

        in the farthest end of the north: In the forecourt, the chosen place, the north side, as the matter is stated (Lev. 1:11): “On the side of the altar to the north.”

        I know that In Christian tradition these verses have been traditionally allegorized as referring to Satan as “the morning star who fell from heaven” for setting himself in G-d’s place, wanting G-d’s throne. In Judaism, you go by the plain sense of the verses just as much which clearly says this message is a parable “against the king of Babylon.” When coupled with the verses in Ezekiel outlining G-d’s warnings against the Prince of Tyre for the same behavior, we can know it as a bad untrustworthy thing when people claim to sit in G-d’s place ie to claim divinity to be served by others. I also think these are texts where an antichrist tradition forms in Christianity.

        Reply
25. Concerned Reader says:

    July 11, 2015 at 3:19 pm

    David, we don’t know of People (other than Jesus’ followers, and possibly the mandeans, a sect that venerated John the Baptist in the 2nd century) who viewed their founders as divine, but it is a matter of historical record that they do. After Jesus however, there are a couple of examples of messiah claimants who came dangerously close to deification. The followers of Jacob Frank venerated his daughter I believe? The Lubavitcher rebbe has been deified by a couple of crazies, etc. the point I’m making, is that these types of venerations and deification are foreign, and anti Torah. You would like Jews to embrace Jesus the man, but you can’t seperate him from the theology built around him. You want us to find the fresh apple in the rotten barrel. We will stick with what we know to be true in the plain sense, Torah.

    Reply
26. Concerned Reader says:

    July 23, 2015 at 8:21 am

    “and he doesn’t tell me to bring a sword to anybody’s neck because they do not believe.”

    Actually Eric, Jesus DOES IN FACT TELL YOU TO EMPLOY VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT HIS MESSAGE.

    Luke 19:27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”

    This verse has been used by Christian groups throughout history to advocate pogroms against Jews and to persecute minority Christian groups, from the earliest days, even now. You would have to be truly blind to Christian history to say otherwise. If you say “those weren’t real Christians,” please show me the real Christian who actually lives like Jesus did day to day.

    I’ll wager you cant find one. The only people you can find who live as he did are Jew who DONT AND WONT believe in him.

    Of what use is your faith when all the good Christians are invisible being surrounded by false ones?

    Reply
    • eric krakofsky says:

      July 29, 2015 at 11:06 pm

      Con, you really have no clue about NT . Your interpretations are no different than picked by someone who reads the words but doesn’t know what they relate to.
      “Actually Eric, Jesus DOES IN FACT TELL YOU TO EMPLOY VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT HIS MESSAGE.Luke 19:27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

      The words you quoted relate to the messianic times where the king is dealing with all who oppose him that includes Israels enemy. Jesus refers that message to what you read in the last chapters of Zechariah.

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        July 29, 2015 at 11:21 pm

        You have to read v27 in conjunction with v14. Those two together make them valid in that present time. V13 sets the time as their time. It’s v15 that starts the future time. THIS is how parables work.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 29, 2015 at 11:42 pm

          Sharbano, was any single person killed in the eyes of jesus because he commanded such thing to anybody? NO. He doesn’t contradict his words. He said he didn’t come to condemn the world but save it. No single event of anybody being killed, but him !

          Those who do not chose salvation , they will have their condemnation in the future. Now is time of grace , later time of judgement. That judgement will face all who oppose God. This is what his words relate to. Read all what he said.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            July 30, 2015 at 7:53 am

            Didn’t Jsus say he didn’t come to bring peace, but the sword, family members against each other.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:18 pm

            Sharbano,That’s how he brought ‘sword’ ; those who will come to God will be always persecuted by those who deny God. And that happened with persecution of the first Christians. Even wanting to bring peace there will be no peace as there will be always those who will be bothered by your faith with God. ( until the messianic times)
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 3:57 pm

            Eric,

            You wrote: “That judgement will face all who oppose God.”

            Who is included in those who oppose God? Will all non-Christians face that judgment in your view?

            We have shown you that the Hebrew Bible maps out a complete path to repentance, righteousness, and God without any clear teachings for any other type of worship. Therefore, are Jews who follow this path opposed to God?

            What about Muslims who live moral lives and love Allah? Are they opposed to God?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:43 pm

            Dina, I am leaving the judgement to God. I am not His spokesman who know all his decisions who is damned who not! Even the evil one might turn back to God at the end and end up as a righteous one. Or the righteous one turn back from God and end up as a damned. But God appointed His day in which He will judge all unrighteousness. I will get you all the links later when I have time. I have it somewhere in my documents.
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 30, 2015 at 12:32 am

          Sharbano, For your better understanding Luke 19;11-27 why is this parable relating to messianic future and not a call to violence? It talks about return of the king who will rule over people. ( the Messiah) Return proceeded by God’s judgement so called the Day of the Lord.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            July 30, 2015 at 8:00 am

            There are verses BEFORE the king leaves. That is in Jsus time.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            July 31, 2015 at 7:22 pm

            Sharbano, he king leaves and comes back. Jesus left and is coming back.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:16 am

            You ignored the salient point. As I said, there is A Part that is BEFORE the king leaves. THIS is what You are ignoring.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:40 am

            Sharbano, Can you be more specific in what you want to tell me?? In v 13 kings servants are entrusted with some responsibility till the kings return but some reject it and no not care to serve their king v.14 . Then the verses are talking about kings return and rewards and punishment. What don’t you understand?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 6:37 pm

            I really wish people would actually read what is written. What did I say that “Joined” the present with the future. This is the point that Xtians always overlook.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:09 pm

            Sharbano, ow you are really creating a story! You can’t say what is the matter but put some words that mean nothing. Can’t you face a simple parable???? ‘ a king

            A) entrusts people with something,
            b) leaves
            c) comes back and judges them
            What is your problem?????????????????
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:22 pm

            Go back and read the original comment.
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 30, 2015 at 3:46 am

        Actually Eric, I was baptized into the Church at age seven, I went to Church from that age until I went off to college and got my degrees in comparative religions and also another in history, which included extensive studies in Church history, theology, and practice. So, yes, I do in fact know a great deal about what your NT says, and what Christians of various sorts believe and believed. I further know the impact that this religion has had on world history, both good and bad.

        The point I was trying to make with quoting Luke 19:27 is that it doesn’t matter what time period that verse actually refers to, messianic period, or our time today. The point is that Jesus in the NT says this, and various Christian groups throughout history have drawn inspiration from that verse in order to do great violence to Christendom’s perceived enemies, Jews and non Jews.

        People who perpetuate violence and hate others seldom care about the true context and proper understanding of a verse. My point was, its not good that this verse is present in the NT at all!

        Protestants and Catholics both applied Luke 19:27 to justify their persecution of each others groups during the reformation, and all historic Christian groups applied that verse in justification for harming Jews, burning Talmuds, instigating pogroms, etc. Christians in the middle ages (down into the 1960s) celebrated passion plays where Jews as a people were blamed (collectively) for Jesus’ death. Mobs of angry Christians would then go hurt Jews after seeing passion plays and being filled with zeal. Its in Church history, look it up, I’m not lying to you. By telling me I’m ignoring the verse’s context you miss the point I made.

        If there is a verse found in ANY religion’s text that says GO KILL X GROUP OF PEOPLE, it is a dangerous text simply for that reason. The original context may have been a suitable occasion to say GO KILL X group, but when later generations take that verse and run with it, and interpret it, strip its context, etc. it can become a dangerous text regardless of what anyone says it “really means,” or what the original author’s intent really was.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 31, 2015 at 6:43 pm

          Con, “People who perpetuate violence and hate others seldom care about the true context and proper understanding of a verse. My point was, its not good that this verse is present in the NT at all! (…)If there is a verse found in ANY religion’s text that says it is a dangerous text simply for that reason. ”
          Yes, I understand your point , but don’t you think God is aware of people taking any ‘piece of a information’ and using it supporting their evil actions ? You said ; that verse in Luke shouldn’t be in NT. People misused it completely but you do not realize OT also carries a message that can be misused and still God put it there; “GO KILL X GROUP OF PEOPLE,’ is also in relation to holy wars in OT.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:05 am

            Isn’t it interesting that in These times, post Shoah, many Xtians refer to all those who perpetrated such acts were not real adherents to the religion, And, by the same token the Xtian text doesn’t, or didn’t spur this along. It wasn’t merely the Leaders of the religion who were guilty of such crimes, but the individuals and whole communities who were complicit in those acts. All of a sudden, in This generation, the followers of the religion have exonerated themselves of any guilt. They are the new and improved generation. What if a man arrives on the scene and has Israel, as a nation, follow all Torah laws and requires the nations to do the same. In This framework he is called Mashiach, and tells the Xtians the Jews were right all along and has them give up their Jsus. How will these Xtians of the modern generation react. Will they see him as Mashiach or an antichrist and seek his demise. Will they go against Him and G-d, or accept him and seek relations with the Jewish State.
            Some years ago I heard of a game that was set in times of Armageddon and it had Xtians killing off those who were “unbelievers”, especially Jews who would refuse to follow a character that was king. When it comes to religion it doesn’t take much for one to turn to a form of cleansing. The more a person is invested in a “belief” the easier the cleansing.
        • eric krakofsky says:

          July 31, 2015 at 6:56 pm

          Con, I forgot to mention ; stoning was one of the punishments in the OT times. Do you realize how many people terribly misuse it in the Middle East and how many crimes are done on simply innocent people who have no rights and are stoned to death for stupid or made up reasons?
          So if we go by’ none of the things like that’ should have been in NT we would have to cut out much more. And even if there was no killing mentioned anywhere, evil would still find it;’s ways to misuse anything God said and use it for it’s evil purposes.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:08 am

            As it is with Islam so it was with Xtianity. Since neither had the knowledge of Torah guidelines they took it upon themselves to define it. Such it is with stoning, or the way Xtianity implemented slavery. They both “assume” they understood Torah but neither did.
    • ChristianPaul says:

      July 30, 2015 at 8:29 am

      Hi Con!

      In the History of Israel and the Church they were period of violence. Actually in the Tanakh we see it clearly for it is written in the Holy Book. The Church when it grew stronger in number got caught in the 4th century with the political powers and seductions of power and money corrupting the leaders like in the Time of Judah and Israel when they started to have confidence in mammom instead of God.

      Therefore let us be honest here and not play the accusation game. We must always act with a repentant heart and seek the will of God having always confidence in Him like little chidren in the arms of their parents.

      Peace and blessings!

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 30, 2015 at 2:40 pm

        Christian Paul, its not merely “an accusation game” at all, its the historical truth! Even a modern film like the passion of the Christ portrays Jewish people as villains, and that rhetoric has a real world impact on how people today perceive and treat Jewish people. In many ways the violence people perpetuate is subconscious, and is due to misunderstanding, but its there. I’m not saying that only Christians have done bad things, but I am saying Christians alone are the ones who are responsible for the various actions done in the name of their religion and sacred texts!

        You can’t just side step all the corruption and historic violence in the Church as “not real Christianity,” because the NT has had this very real negative impact in world history. In many ways, its irrelevant what the original intention of that first group of Jews who followed Jesus was, or what beautiful interpretation you can offer of the NT text. If only one person understands the text in the proper way, that doesn’t make it a good, especially since so many people tend to do evil and rash things with it.

        Reply
        • ChristianPaul says:

          July 30, 2015 at 2:58 pm

          Hi Con!

          Honesty is the key here if we can humble ourselves. I am willing to accept your argument if they are just. I have posted violence in the History and recognized the abuses of Christianity but you did not address in the Tanakh the violence that was made also. You put it aside may be justified by the fact it is sacred violence… I do not know. Can you explain please for the sake of truth. Thank you in advance!

          Peace and blessings!

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            July 30, 2015 at 3:19 pm

            Hi Paul, can you specify what you are talking about when you say violence in the Tanakh?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            July 30, 2015 at 3:33 pm

            Hi Saul!

            First I will appreciate to be called Christian not Paul. Do I call you Hi Goodman? Thank you!
            N.B.: This is my second time that I bring that to your attention.

            Peace and blessings!
          • Saul Goodman says:

            July 30, 2015 at 3:36 pm

            I apologize, i didn’t see where you told me this before but ok.

            But can you answer please?
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 3:51 pm

            Hey CP,

            Here’s a multiple choice question for you:

            Which is your preferred spelling for Jesus’s name?

            A. Jesus
            B. Yeshua
            C. Yahshuo
            D. Yahushuo
            E. Yahushuoaoao
            F. Yahawishiwashy
            G. Jeezer
            H. All of the above
            I. None of the above
            J. Other _________

            I am very curious to get your answer. Thanks!
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 3:53 pm

            CP,

            You wrote: “Honesty is the key here if we can humble ourselves.”

            Are you humble?
          • Concerned Reader says:

            July 30, 2015 at 4:02 pm

            Christian Paul
            Its important to realize that the Torah as a text is a book that contains both holiness and self criticism, (including examples of very bad behavior, even from the moral greats of the text.) In a way, the Torah stands at the vantage point of amorality, having great potential for both good and bad for those who read it.

            So, not everything in it has a moral justification for all time in all situations. For example, we would all say the that Torah truly says that “David was a man after G-D’s own heart.” We wouldn’t ever say however that because David was loved by G-d that David’s sins of adultery and murder were somehow also justified, or loved by G-d right?

            The commandment to blot out Amalek is likewise not a blanket justification for killing an entire population of people. The Torah teaches what is good, as well as what is not good. “See I have set before you life and good, death and evil.” Deuteronomy 30:15.

            A community and its sacred text bear responsibility for both the good and the bad done in its name, anything that comes about due to its existence. The Torah is an exercise in sharpening of character, not a blanket allowance, or a blanket condemnation of a given action. There are laws in Torah after all, that apply only to Jews, laws that apply only to gentiles, laws that apply only to women, etc. So, as an example, is it immoral for a gentile to eat pork? No, because he isn’t enjoined to observe that commandment.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            July 30, 2015 at 4:41 pm

            Hi Con, Dina and Saul! Peace to you!

            First Con thank you for your response. I find that you are always prompt to respond and it is interesting.

            Saul I am responding to your post in the same time for I was thinking about the injunction from YHWH to exterminate Amalek that Saul did not obey and therefore was rejected by the Elohim. Con brought it and let us if you may take this example.

            Amalek extermination that is called sacred violence for it comes from God, therefore could in Modern history something like this happen in the name of God like some Muslim do in the Middle East. How can we know that those injunction are from God when it apparently goes against the Torah ‘you shalt not kill’ Can we kill our enemies therefore as being an exception to the rule?

            Thank you!

            P.S.: Dina you have two different questions:

            1) I do not understand why multiple choices in the border of ridicule and lack of respect for the name of the Messiah? I just know like all human beings that is Hebrew name is written like in the first book of the Prophets: יהושוע

            2)You asked me if I am humble. Why this question are you concerned for my soul or did I showed signs of pride. Please correct me if you saw something. Thank you! Now my life my soul my everything comes from YHWH and I praise, thank and worship Him. For i am nothing and He is everything. Bless be His Holy Name now and forever!

            Peace and blessings!
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 5:26 pm

            CP, if you knew Hebrew, you would know that the Torah does not say “You shall not kill” (לא תהרג) but “You shall not murder” (לא תרצח) which renders your argument silly, forgive me for saying so. If you really want to know what the Torah teaches, you should learn some Hebrew. (This will also prevent you from making that astonishingly foolish statement that in effect implies that God contradicted Himself.)

            Also, I think it’s strange for you to question God’s commands, unless you do not believe the Torah to be true. And if the Torah isn’t true, then Judaism isn’t true. And no Judaism = no Christianity.

            I would like to know how you spell Jesus’s name in English. Why do you refuse to do that? It’s a pretty simple and straightforward question.

            I asked if you were humble because you keep telling everyone else to stay away from pride in order to be honest. Do you think you are humble enough to be as honest as you keep telling everyone else to be? I think that’s a fair question.
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 5:31 pm

            Also, CP, what is your native tongue and what other languages do you speak? Thanks you.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            July 30, 2015 at 5:35 pm

            So basically, you are saying that killing on God’s order is the same as killing…. Not on God’s order? Are you serious here?

            This is so silly. Now you are putting God’s orders on the same level of legitimacy as Man’s orders. This is an atheistic position. This is a denial of God’s sovereignty, and equating Man to the same level as God.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            July 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm

            Hi Dina!

            Thank you for the correction. I should surely learn to be more precise. Now I see the difference between killing and murdering. Now is the ultra-orthodox person in Israel was allowed by the Torah to take the life of some gay people? Is it a kill or a murder?

            Also can I ask you why do you ask me my mother tongue? Do I ask you personal question? Is it relevant to the discussion? Thank you!

            Three other points: 1)the name of the Messiah translated in other tongues depend of each tongue way of pronunciation. In Spanish, Jesus would equal Chesou in English. From the Hebrew יהושוע would make YHUSHUA in English

            2) I do not think that God contradict Himself I am trying to show that violence can be holy if it is ordered by God and my question was … How can we know that the order comes from God? It is humans that contradict God not God who contradicts Himself. Sometimes we humans think that we understand God but it is more our ego that we are understanding…

            Amalek problem is a real issue. Could you think that it can happen in our days?

            3) Dina when I say to stay away from pride I certainly include me first. It is a duty to correct each other for the better good. I hope I am not mistaken when I say that. And I even ask you to correct me if I am deluding myself in that matter. Thank you in advance!

            Peace and blessings!
          • Dina says:

            July 30, 2015 at 11:54 pm

            Hi CP,

            “Now I see the difference between killing and murdering. Now is the ultra-orthodox person in Israel was allowed by the Torah to take the life of some gay people? Is it a kill or a murder?”

            Obviously, if you had to ask that question, you don’t see the difference between killing and murdering. Beside for learning some Hebrew, maybe you should learn some English too.

            “Also can I ask you why do you ask me my mother tongue? Do I ask you personal question?”

            I think you know perfectly well why I am asking you, but really, CP, since when is asking someone what language they speak a personal question? Here is an example of a personal question: “Do you get along with your wife?” But “what language do you speak?” is not a personal question.

            Why on earth do you not want to answer that question? I would have no problem answering similar questions from you.

            So tell me, mon cher monsieur, what is your native tongue? And what other languages do you speak?

            Thank you for answering my question about the spelling of the name of your false god. However, your transliteration of יהושוע is incorrect. It is more correct to spell it Yehoshua, which is Hebrew for Joshua, not Jesus.

            Maybe you need to sort out the names for your deity first, before you answer that question.

            “I do not think that God contradict Himself I am trying to show that violence can be holy if it is ordered by God and my question was … How can we know that the order comes from God?”

            Do you believe the Torah is true? God ordered the killing of Amalek and the nations of the land of Canaan in the Torah. That’s how we know the order came from God. So do you believe the Torah is true, or do you not believe the Torah is true? If you answer yes, then you should not need to even ask that question. If you answer no, then you should not be a Christian, because if the Torah is false, then so is Christianity for sure.

            “Amalek problem is a real issue. Could you think that it can happen in our days?”

            It cannot happen for two reasons: one, we are not a sovereign people with a Holy Temple and so do not have the power to carry out this commandment; and two, we cannot identify who is Amalek.

            Are you seriously worried? When was the last time the Jewish people carried out genocide? Can you find any incident more recent than 3000 years ago? Silly willy CP!

            About pride, I am glad to hear you include yourself in your rebuke. I would still like to know if you believe pride is worse in a woman than in a man.

            To recap, here is a list of my questions:

            1. Can you sort out your man-god’s name and spell it in English?
            2. What is your native tongue and what other languages do you speak?
            3. Do you believe the Torah is true, and if so, then all commands in the Torah emanate from God?
            4. Are you afraid of murderous violence from Jews? Do you believe it is one of the problems plaguing the world today?

            Peace and blessings to you too! J’espère que tu répondras bientôt.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            July 31, 2015 at 10:21 am

            Hi Dina! Peace to you and many blessings!

            1) I feel that you have a lot of prejudices against Christians calling them all Protestants. That is very unjust. Orthodox Christians are not what you think. I hope you will seek and learn before judging prematurely. Thank you!

            2) My mother tongue is personal for if I tell it to you, you will again prejudge like you did with Christians. It starts with “L” or “A” depending on how do you see it.

            3) During Second World War more than 20 millions Russian Orthodox Christian were killed (murdered) by Stalin the atheist guy a freemason. Then of course I can feel the pain of 6 millions of my brothers Jews who were killed also by the monster.

            4) a)The Messiah was not English in Hebrew the name is clear יהושוע which would transliterate to Y’HUSHUA or Y’HOSHUA who gave us the modern Joshua

            b) The Holy Name of the Elohim is YHWH which you will not pronounce. The Messiah is our Salvation is name reflects that YHWH is the One who saves…

            5) Concerning humility I think that women are generally more humble than men. For my part I hope to be in humility and truth and may YHWH preserves me of that awful sin. And please pray for me a sinner that I always do the will of the Eternal One.

            Shalom!
          • Sharbano says:

            July 31, 2015 at 10:34 am

            What is your basis for saying Hashem is the “Holy Name” for Elokim.
            We have already discussed the Reason for not pronouncing the Name and it is Based in Torah.
          • Sharbano says:

            July 31, 2015 at 10:37 am

            A mother tongue is “Personal”?, causing someone to “prejudge”?
            Now that Really sounds suspicious.
          • Dina says:

            July 31, 2015 at 10:56 am

            Hi CP,

            This conversation is getting delightfully silly and entertaining. I hope you are enjoying it as much as I.

            “I feel that you have a lot of prejudices against Christians calling them all Protestants.”

            First, I never called all Christians Protestants. That is a lie. I do have a prejudice against liars. I should warn you about that. It’s a mean, nasty prejudice.

            Second, you reveal your own prejudice against Protestants. I don’t care about particular denominations, and I am not anti any Christian sect per se (I am anti falsehood and idolatry). So you are revealing yourself to be an intolerant religious bigot. Such touching Christian love for your own brethren!

            “Then of course I can feel the pain of 6 millions of my brothers Jews who were killed also by the monster.”

            I did not ask you if you can feel the pain of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust. You need to read more carefully. What did I ask you, CP? Can you answer that question? Do you dare?

            “My mother tongue is personal for if I tell it to you, you will again prejudge like you did with Christians.”

            How do you prejudge someone on the basis of their spoken language? I did not know that was possible. Unlike you, I do not judge people based on their gender, color of their skin, race, or religion. I judge them on the content of their character (to paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr.).

            So what are you really afraid of, CP? Why are you afraid to tell the truth? Are you really scared of the judgment of big, bad, scary Dina? Or is there another more sinister reason?

            (Cue the dramatic music.)

            “The Messiah was not English in Hebrew the name is clear etc.”

            Since you spell his name differently in different places and refer to him in different ways, you should just sort it all out. Is it Yeshua? Y’hooshooah? Yahooshooeee? Do you happen to have a preference for Yahushuo? That seemed to be a favorite of yours in a different incarnation.

            “Concerning humility I think that women are generally more humble than men.”

            Again, I did not ask if you think women are more humble than men (which is interesting, by the way. Really? On what basis do you make that judgment?) I asked you if pride is worse in a woman than in a man. Are you capable of reading? Or do you prefer to answer the questions you wished I had asked rather than the ones I actually did ask?
          • Dina says:

            July 31, 2015 at 10:59 am

            CP,

            “And please pray for me a sinner that I always do the will of the Eternal One.”

            It is against the will of the Eternal One to worship anyone else. If you want to His will, obey Him at once, abandon your Jesus idol, and turn to Him alone. I pray that you learn to be honest and self-aware, for that is the first step to being able to be a better person.
        • Saul Goodman says:

          July 31, 2015 at 12:40 am

          @Dina

          Je ne pense pas qu’il répondra 😉

          Reply
          • Dina says:

            July 31, 2015 at 1:16 am

            Lol, Saul! It’s cool that you speak French. I studied it in high school and college, but sadly haven’t used it in about 20 years, alors j’ai oublié la plupart du français que j’ai appris. My spelling and grammar are probably horrible. But I do love that language.

            Anyway, I have a specific reason for using French phrases here. I hope that it will become clear pretty soon, but if not, then I will explain :).
          • Saul Goodman says:

            July 31, 2015 at 1:34 am

            Haha Dina, yes, french is a lovely language. Omelette de fromage! lol
        • Paul summers says:

          August 1, 2015 at 12:01 pm

          Hello CR

          You are correct that films or talk that implies a under current of biased views do generate hate and violence, in this context the Jewish hate compaign.

          I am in no way stating this has not happened. It has, with massive and unforgettable horrors. But the antisemitic voices and the ears that recieve and believe the antisemitism, are just that, antisemitic. They simply do not understand the word of God, and have absolutely no idea of the written word, especially here, in regard to the Jews and the promised land.

          I would also add that the whole of the bible has been used against the children of Israel, not just the NT by itself. Any scripture can be turned upside down and used incorrectly if one has an hidden agenda. Any writing given over into the wrong hands can be fatal.

          The nazis did this, using OT.

          Because the bible has been used incorrectly, the act of sin doesn’t devalue the original texts as they were intended. Its only sinful man that kills, not the holy word.

          I find it a little odd that you state the original text is irrelevant? I would counter that statement, and I will put the ball back into your court……….
          ……… It seems like you are admitting that the original text are pro semitic ( which they are), but you are now dismissing them, based on the perversed nature on which they were intended.

          The negative impact, which yes, has impacted the Jews massively, has also brought thousands of Jews to Christ in faith, faith that is, not forced into.

          Personally, before I became a believer in Christ I watched The film, The passion of the Christ. I didn’t see the Jews as evil. I didnt go on some pogrom. I just felt sad at the whole affair. Having said that I do understand that in history past, RC priests would use lent and the build up to easter as an opportunity to go Jew bashing. Thats wrong, evil etc etc, which I hate. Again its how one is internally which acts so wickedly, not the teachings of Jesus the Jew.

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 1, 2015 at 6:56 pm

            Even if the verses in the NT that call Jews “children of the Devil,” etc. could be radically reinterpreted it doesn’t change the fact that for at least 1800 years of Christian history, Christians themselves, along with their sanctioned reading of scripture, canon of laws, and actions have done evil against Jews with those NT texts, without cause.

            There is a whole Orthodox Christian genre entitled “Adversus Ioudaios” literally Against the Jews, that can be traced back to at the latest the beginning of the 2nd century, even earlier. We can’t escape the fact that an anti Jewish rhetoric (a fierce rhetoric and libel against Jesus’ purported opponents,) has lead Christians in most generations (in one degree or another) to do violence and or to speak extreme ill against Jews. It is not a coincidence that “Pharisee” is a slur in our culture. We can thank the NT for that.

            Its inherent in the NT (in John’s gospel most viciously) due to that particular text’s historical context. The NT lambasts the Pharisees as being worthless, blind, stupid, evil, etc. thus the text itself harbors a hatred of a community, that goes beyond prophetic rebuke, and spills over affecting religious and non religious Jews negatively. Notice that Jesus never includes himself in the rebukes? He never says, “I too am worthless, stupid, evil.” The prophets (in contrast to Jesus) always placed themselves alongside those who they condemned for their unrighteousness.

            In the gospels, Jesus’ students are contrasted sharply with the Pharisees. The pharisees are almost always treated as totally beyond redemption. Do you think it is just coincidence that so many horrid things happened to the Jews?
27. Concerned Reader says:

    July 23, 2015 at 8:55 am

    David, you have spoken to and accused Dina and others here of possessing an anti Christian, and anti pagan agenda on behalf of people here.

    Are you not aware that historical Christian legislation and culture is absolutely saturated with anti Jewish, and also anti pagan literature and actions? THERE IS AN ENTIRE GENRE DEVOTED ONLY TO THE SUBJECT OF BASHING JEWS AND THEIR FAITH!!!!

    The protocols of the learned elders of Zion, Chrysostom’s homilies against the Jews, Tertullian’s treatise against them, Luther’s works, countless forced disputations throughout history, the blood libel, blaming Jews for the Plague, forced expulsions, and the climate of hostility produced by this vitriolic literature that contributed greatly to the holocaust and the world’s inaction in the face of it.

    Do you realize that most of the Nuremburg laws have antecedents in Christian legislation? Yellow badges, Ghettos, forced labor, exclusion from positions of authority or of influence, etc. were all practiced by the Churches before the Nazis! I am in no way blaming all Christians for the Shoah, but I am asking you to confront historical realities rather than to live with a myth that Christians have been unfairly judged or maligned.

    There is a well known saying, “let history make its own judgements.” Did the Church live up to the profound ethics of Jesus in all its history? NO! And yes, Jesus’ ethics were profound. That said, the movement founded in his name has done unspeakable harm, and only a fool would paint Christendom as poor persecuted sheep. Did you know there were Pogroms in Poland and Austria in 1946 among clergymen RIGHT AFTER THE HOLOCAUST ENDED? Did you know about general Patton’s reaction (when confronted by president Truman with the conditions in postwar refugee camps?)

    Reply
    • Dina says:

      July 23, 2015 at 12:15 pm

      Hi Con,

      I’m interested in hearing about General Patton. I don’t know the story you are referring to, so if you have time, can you write it?

      I hope David reads what you wrote, but I think he’s gone for now. He pops up every once in a while, then leaves just as abruptly.

      At any rate, thanks for the validation. I recently read an article about anti-Semitism. It described it as the oldest, most universal, and most implacable hatred. Throughout the ages, the anti-Semite and the Jew have faced off against each other, the one playing offense and the other playing defense, respectively.

      And that is the revenge of the anti-Semite: when we complain about anti-Semitism, we are the ranters and ravers.

      The point hit home, because Eric, David, and Paul have all expressed the view that I rant and rave about anti-Semitism while denying the phenomenon. Eric denies that there is such a thing as Christian anti-Semitism and accuses me of being “soaked in message of hate.” Paul tells me I’m acting like a pathetic victim. And David pretends that there was never such a thing in the first place, while Jews were the ones oppressing Christians and now Arabs.

      It’s enough to make anyone bang their head against the wall in despair.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        July 30, 2015 at 4:06 am

        Yeah Dina. I was actually profoundly shocked when I heard about general Patton. My family has an extensive history of military service, and Ive always respected general Patton. My Grandfather fought in WWII, so Ive always had a sense of respect for Patton. I was watching a documentary on Netflix called “The long way home.” It talks about hardships faced by survivors after the Shoah. It Chronicles Patton’s work administering post war refugee camps. He apparently said some very horrific things in his diary.

        As I said, I was shocked. I understand how Christians feel. They believe in their religion,but they can’t believe that honest “believers” would be capable of such horrible violence. Sadly, the historical record illustrates a very violent history of Christianity. Many Christians have said “true Christians only do good to others as Jesus taught,” but they miss the point that evil can come even from the best of sources. Even the Torah (G-d forbid) could be used for violence if a group had their heart set on it. The point is, we cant whitewash. We have to confront the difficult verses in religious texts that can be used for violence.

        Reply
        • Dina says:

          July 30, 2015 at 5:46 pm

          Wow, Con, I just googled “General Patton anti semitic” and was deeply disturbed by what I found (actually, boiling mad is a more apt description).

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            July 30, 2015 at 8:50 pm

            Yeah, i was angry myself. Its disturbing.
    • Paul summers says:

      August 1, 2015 at 12:36 pm

      Hello again

      Yes I am aware of these barbaric acts of wickedness. You would have to be totally insane to dismiss these truths of history.
      But im a believer in the Jewish Jesus, and His teachings, and im no Jew hater. Thats why I make the statements of the True invisible Church, verses the visible non church.

      Ive also discovered that Henry Ford was quite the antisemite.

      Reply
    • David says:

      August 1, 2015 at 8:40 pm

      C.R.,

      You wrote,
      “Did the Church live up to the profound ethics of Jesus in all its history? NO! And yes, Jesus’ ethics were profound.”

      My response,
      I agree, “the Church” meaning the visible church, meaning “Christiandom.” There’s a difference between Christiandom and Christianity.

      Did you know that during the Middle Ages everyone in Europe except for Jews and Muslims were part of Christiandom? Obviously then, they weren’t all Christians.

      There is nothing in the NT that is anti-Semitic.

      The Crusades for example began as a reaction to Islam to when Alexis, the Emperor of Byzantium, an area of Christiandom, requested help from the Pope.

      And Hitler was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Semitic.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        August 1, 2015 at 9:30 pm

        There’s a difference between Christendom and Christianity.

        Not a truly meaningful one David. Think about it. If someone reads your sacred text David, and based on reading that text, and being motivated by its verses, decides to persecute some group of people using those NT verses, that is on the Christian community’s shoulders to make sure that doesn’t happen, to take responsibility for your own Bible.

        Would you agree for instance, that Muslims who read verses in the Qur’an about “killing the infidel,” should be held responsible to uproot the vitriol of those verses that are the root cause of the violence towards non Muslims?

        There is nothing in the NT that is anti-Semitic.

        The Gospel of John singles out “the Jews” as an entire nation and denigrates them on the basis of living and maintaining their tradition as it existed before Jesus. I don’t care if the author was a Jew, his words DO IN FACT promote unwarranted violence against Jews as a national entity. That is the nature of antisemitism. You have to consciously ignore historical fact to say otherwise, which is, respectfully, crazy. I don’t care about these godly invisible Christians of yours, I care about the real physical person who reads the Christian Bible and decides to persecute Jews, and knock on people’s doors. What’s the difference between invisible “true Christians” and “True Christians” that don’t exist? Just your imagination!

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 1, 2015 at 9:34 pm

          BTW David, the next time you see my invisible 1 million dollar Check, be sure to let me know and return it, if you could.

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:14 pm

            Con, things are invisible for those who do not want to see. I am talking about people just in case you wanted mention about your check to me. too. Ask the thousands who were rescued and they will tell you that their rescuers has a physical human form.
        • Paul summers says:

          August 2, 2015 at 6:53 am

          Hello CR

          Your reasoning here is only based on what happened from the view point of a perversion used on the bible. The Bible on the whole is simply a Jewish document. Ok, the NT was written in Greek, and yes non believers will not receive the NT as sacred. That I get, but the NT was written by Jews, primarily for Jews.

          In fact there are passages where Jesus ignores gentiles for the sake of first going to the Jew first. Going to the Jew first, obviously shows the importance of the gospels first audience. Plus Pauls aim and teaching was the Jew first.

          These are simple and basic truths taught in scripture.

          To be totally blunt here, the idea that the NT and the teachings of Christ are intended foundations of Jewish blood are as perverted as the texts used to promote Jewish deaths. Again to be blunt, it seems like using the anti semimetic reasoning of NT scripture is a convenient place to hide from the truth which is obviously what is going here, and what has gone on through the corridors of history.

          Im not ignorant to the fact of Jewish blood being spilt in the name of Christ. I see it and get it. Bloggers here will bombard these pages with dates, quotes, etc of Jewish blood being shed in the name of Christ. That I see yes and yes. Im not dismissing these facts or ignoring them nor am I condoning them. I see it through the eyes of Jews and try to understand the horrible history dished out by the “church”.
          I havnt personally being persecuted, so I can only see it from the outside looking in, but I do have Jewish friends who families were killed in the pogroms in Europe. This Jewish friend or actually now a Jewish brother in Christ is a Messianic, Christian believer.He is a Rabbi and of course he understands the history better than me. But he isnt anti NT teachings. He sees it as the Bible was intended to be seen, pro Jew.
          Plus I have another Jewish brother who is a Dr in Jewish theology. His parents escaped nazi Europe into siberia. He also came to Christ in faith. He sees the theology concept of Jewish history, but he isnt anti NT teachings.

          WHY??? Because the Bible on the whole is Jewish.

          I see a odd concept here;

          Bible believing followers of Christ, simply do not hate Jews or promote Jewish hatred.
          WHY??
          Because a simply glance over the scriptures from beginning to end show that the Jews are paramount and central to the plan of God. No Jews no plan. Its that simple.

          Non believers, athiests, or religious institutions which stand under the banner of the cross, who simply do not belong to Christ will be led or lead others to totall non scriptual teachings of the written word. They may and do use scripture to promote there own concepts of scripture, but that is not a legitimate rendering of Scripture.

          Now Here Jews who reject Christ, who totally reject the teachings of Christ, use the twisted rendering of the truth, and use those false teachings, which fueled their horrific and bloody history, as a scapegoat, to deflect their theological postion with God.

          A position which is only temporary, which unfortunately will only get worse before it gets better.

          May the Lord God of Israel open your eyes to the truth.

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 1:21 pm

            Paul
            Your statement that we use the anti-Semitism of the Church as a “scapegoat” is demonstrably false – there are hundreds of articles on this blog alone – the vast majority of them point out the theological and Scriptural flaws of Christianity without resorting to mentioning Christian anti-Semitism – why don’t you try responding to an article like “Another Mathematical Problem”? or “Blood Songs” – you have hundreds to choose from
            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/04/12/another-mathematical-problem-2/
            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/949/
        • Paul summers says:

          August 4, 2015 at 3:57 pm

          Hello CR

          The problem with statements like the one here which you write ref John are worryingly incorporated with antisemitism. The topic which here is in question.

          You make unwarranted emphatic statements about John dammning an entire Jewish nation.
          Do you not see, that kind of thinking and public outcry is just the same medium of propaganda which antisemites use. You automatically and totally incorrectly read into a text and use it for your argument.

          You would think that the mob who claim Jews killed Jesus had read the bible and were carrying out righteousness in the name of Christ.
          However it is very evident that the NT teaches quite the oppersite. Jesus made numerous statements about Himself laying down His own life for His sheep. He said nobody takes His life. He said Ive come to do my Fathers will. He told pilate that he didnt have any authority over His life. Etc etc etc etc.

          So the message is clear. So to persecute a Jew, based on the notion that Jesus was murdered out of Gods sovereign will is so enormously stupid it beggars belief.

          Once one has obtained salvation through Christs death, buriel and resurrection, it becomes very clear that the Jewish rejection of Messiah is my acceptance into the covenants of Israel. Something wich was hindered by proselytising through the temple service.
          Gods overall plan for my salvation as a gentile is through Israels rejection of their Messiah. Anyone with an ounce of common decency will see, that through Gods grace there are redeemed through Christ, through faith. The consequential reaction to that revelation of truth is to tell the Jew of Christ, not to murder them. Im only saved because of His death.

          It is a thin line, but if you get it wrong the consequences are massive. The “church” got it wrong. Is John argueing to said individuals or the entire 100% nation. If you read the individual texts and then, on the whole NT, a look will reveal the truth….. Individuals.

          Your foundational starting point is uneven. The more you build on it the more it becomes unstable. Your views are personal but not scriptual.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 8:55 am

            So, if Jsus is laying his own life on the line then WHY does he call those people devils and children of the devil. He should have praised them for doing the will of the Father.
      • yourphariseefriend says:

        August 2, 2015 at 1:01 am

        David Hitler had a pact with the Pope – he had no pact with any Jewish entity. Hitler gave tithe to the Catholic Church till the day he died. to say that he was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Semitic is simply untrue

        Reply
        • David says:

          August 2, 2015 at 3:54 pm

          Yisroel,

          Hitler rejected the Christian God and preferred the ancient paganism of his forefathers.

          His ideas were anti-Christian. He drew heavily from Nietzsche, who originally coined the phrase “God is dead.” By his own admission he was clearly fighting against the God of the bible.

          Regarding his pact with Christiandom and not with the Jews, why would he, a madman bent on ultimate power, make a pact with relatively powerless Jews?

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:14 pm

            David I was responding to your comment that Hitler was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Jewish – this is false – he saw some commonality between himself and Christianity – but none with Judaism
          • Paul summers says:

            August 4, 2015 at 12:03 pm

            Hello

            Yes I agree. H had been very clear of his future intentions for the jewish people. Making political, religious pacts would have been futile.

            However H wasnt stupid. Evil and mad, yes. H was raised “in a church environment,” either Lutheran and RC. These churches had been raised in The Teaching of contempt, the antisemitism which was rife in the church.

            So with a mix of antisemitism teaching, germanic erian pseudo science and mythology h was well self convinced that Jews had to be disposed of.

            His perfect excuse was “the churches” own teachings. All h had to do was to get the church on side, and his future intentioned plans were made even more accessible.

            A point to remember is h came to power by democracy. Crazy as it was, it was still by the ballot box. Once h came to ultimate power the church had to replace the bible wih a copy of meine kampft and a sword. By then it was to late, and the sorrowful future of 6 million Jews were only days away.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 5, 2015 at 9:13 am

            paul Do you realize that every step of Hitler’s plan for the Jews was already thought out by Church theologians long before him – including a racist persecution of Jews
        • Paul summers says:

          August 5, 2015 at 8:26 am

          Hello
          Well again technically speaking tithing is a non NT scriptual teaching. Tithes were given under the Mosaic Law. As any scripture based believer in Christ should know and practice, the Law was rendered inoperative through Christ, freeing the believer ftom the Law.
          Unfortunately tithes and dozens more errors of teaching are practiced by the church, under the misguided teaching of so called leaders.

          Again, what the NT actually teaches and what one practices are miles apart.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 11:21 am

            Are You contradicting G-d when it comes to tithing or other “Mosaic laws”. (Laws were handed down FROM G-d). What does Malachi say and who is MORE authoritative, Malachi or Xtian teaching.

            Will a man rob God? Yet you rob Me, and you say, “With what have we robbed You?”-With tithes and with the terumah-levy.
            You are cursed with a curse, but you rob Me, the whole nation!
            Bring the whole of the tithes into the treasury so that there may be nourishment in My House, and test Me now therewith, says the Lord of Hosts, [to see] if I will not open for you the sluices of heaven and pour down for you blessing until there be no room to suffice for it.
            And I will rebuke the devourer for your sake, and he will not destroy the fruits of your land; neither shall your vine cast its fruit before its time in the field, says the Lord of Hosts.
            You have said, “It is futile to serve God, and what profit do we get for keeping His charge and for going about in anxious worry because of the Lord of Hosts?”

            So, Paul, are You willing to ROB G-d.

            18And you shall return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who has not served Him.
          • David says:

            August 5, 2015 at 2:56 pm

            Hi Paul and Sharbano,

            Well put Paul.

            Sharbano:

            The Law of Moses and Malachi’s tithing command are addressed to the house of Israel.

            It does not, therefore apply to Gentile Christians.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 3:34 pm

            The problem with this is the “first church” were Israelites NOT Gentiles.
            In any event Isaiah is speaking about Gentiles of the nations.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 5, 2015 at 3:51 pm

            Hi Paul!

            The problem with Protestants is that they think that everything is abrogated by Christ. That is a lie! Enough of your counter-witness to the truth. What did the Church said in the Gospel of Matthew:

            17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

            and further the Christ said:

            21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

            Therefore if you want to be a true disciple of the Master you must obey not do as you want. If you can not obey because of lack of love for God then humiliate yourself and fall on your knee and pray that you have the grace to be obedient. This is the process of all your life to be worthy of entering the Heavens. Be serious and let go of Babylon!

            Peace and blessings!
      • Sharbano says:

        August 2, 2015 at 9:00 am

        That “Crusade reaction” DID go to the “Jew first”.

        Reply
        • Paul summers says:

          August 2, 2015 at 12:46 pm

          Hi

          Well technically the crusades were aimed at the muslims first, then on route Jews were killed. But yes I understand the concept.

          Imperialism conquest, state domination, church wordly superiority and definitely Jewish persecution is NOT the teaching of Jesus the Jew or His Church.

          All the above is by man putting himself on the throne of God and ignoring scriptural teaching.

          Persecution of the Jewish people is literally as old as sin itself, it is not a new church document. The book of Esther should show the world thus.

          The murderous attempt to destroy Gods children in Europe is not a new concept. Sad but uncomfortably true.

          Reply
          • concerned reader says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:53 pm

            Paul, read my posts on this blog about this subject. Nobody is blaming All christians for Jewish persecution, we are just noting that there are things written in the NT that fuel a hatred of Jews. Even if Jews wrote large parts of the NT, there words had consequences for the Jewish community. The NT has a narrative that negatively implicates all Jews as a people in Jesus’ death. This reinforces and strengthens anti semitism by itself.
          • Paul summers says:

            August 3, 2015 at 8:43 am

            Hello CR

            Yes I understand you, and yes I did read your quotes.

            Like I stated earlier also, texts taken out of context and used to fuel hatred, will by some, be just that, fuel for hatred. The texts cannot he blamed, its the condition of the hearts who read the texts that cause the problems. People twist the truth around to attain their own agendas.

            The agenda of antisemitism was always there, it just needed some warped justification to carry out there own plans.

            This is why the whole concept of the NT being so antisemitic to me is totally bizarre.

            Both parties are guilty.

            Antisemitic “believers”who apparently love Christ use scripture to kill Jews.
            Jewish non believers also believe that the NT has antisemitism running through it pages.

            So the two groups agree with each other!! The difference being, Jews are persecuted, while the other, dish it out!!

            However the NT teaches quite the oppersite. The NT teaches that everything that Jesus did and taught was Tanach based. Jews being very central to the whole concept and plan of God. No Jew no plan. That plan is still in place. So killing Jews is not a good idea for every possible reason.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 12:27 pm

            Paul Did you read my article “The Guilt of Books”?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 6:44 pm

            If it’s Tanach based why are there so many mis-quotes.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 3, 2015 at 10:45 am

            Hi Paul,

            “However the NT teaches quite the oppersite. The NT teaches that everything that Jesus did and taught was Tanach based. ”

            Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 3, 2015 at 11:37 am

            Hi Saul! You asked: “Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?”

            The Doctrine of the Bread of Life comes from John 6. The living bread given for the life of the Church has it roots in the Torah in the book of Leviticus:

            Leviticus 7:13
            12 If a person offers it for giving thanks, he is to offer it with the thanksgiving sacrifice of unleavened cakes mixed with olive oil, matzah spread with olive oil, and cakes made of fine flour mixed with olive oil and fried. 13 With cakes of leavened bread he is to present his offering together with the sacrifice of his peace offerings for giving thanks. 14 From each kind of offering he is to present one as a gift for Adonai; it will belong to the cohen who splashes the blood of the peace offerings against the altar.

            Leviticus 8:26
            From the basket of matzah that was before Adonai he took one piece of matzah, one cake of oiled bread, and one wafer, and placed them on the fat and on the right thigh.

            Leviticus 8:31
            Moshe said to Aharon and his sons, “Boil the meat at the door of the tent of meeting; and eat it there with the bread that is in the basket of consecration, as I ordered when I said that Aharon and his sons are to eat it.

            Leviticus 8:32
            Whatever is left over of the meat and bread you are to burn up completely.

            Leviticus 21:6
            Rather, they are to be holy for their God and not profane the name of their God. For they are the ones who present Adonai with offerings made by fire, the bread of their God; therefore they must be holy.

            And on and on…

            Ancient Judaism is the root of Orthodox Christianity. The last accomplish the first.

            Blessings and Peace!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 6:47 pm

            Leviticus certainly DOES NOT speak of consuming blood. Quite the opposite .
            Out of everything Xtianity teaches the eat flesh and blood is The Most Disgusting thing imaginable. In ancient times people would be cannibals in order to gain the power of their enemies. Is THIS what Xtianity wants us to believe. We have to believe in “symbolic cannibalism”.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:28 pm

            Sharbano, did you see any Christians drinking blood or eating flesh??? Did any of jesus disciples eat jesus flesh when he spoke to them? Did any vine change into blood because Jesus said; “this is my blood “, or the opposite? No, What was the purpose ? That we all share in his blood shed for us that is for our atonement .
            As far as .’ Eating ; represents feeding on God’s words. Read John 6
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:38 pm

            You can whitewash it all you want but that doesn’t remove the disgusting aspect of it. With the Strict prohibition on consuming blood it is Questionable that a “Jew” would suggest such a thing.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 4, 2015 at 11:13 pm

            Sharbano, are you kidding? you really believe we drink blood??? Do you know of at least one Christian that does it for his religious purposes??? You seem to be out of moon.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 3, 2015 at 11:51 am

            Hi Christian

            I didn’t ask about supposed roots, i asked where does the Tanakh teach to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Please, do not try to divert from the issue at hand. Your roots things could be made about MacDonald as well. So please, stick to the question.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 5, 2015 at 3:53 pm

            Saul G to Christian ” “I didn’t ask about supposed roots, i asked where does the Tanakh teach to eat human flesh and drink human blood. ”
            It is amazing you are even asking such a question. Do you know what is a figurative language? And did you say you used to be a Christian? There is no eating human flesh and no drinking any blood in Christianity. To those who understood it literally jesus gave the answer in John 8 ;63
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 4:59 pm

            The question remains, Why symbolism of something detestable. I’m sure that analogy will bring countless Jews to the table. It sounds more like using the symbolism of the Canaanites.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 4:39 pm

            Sharbano, you have a problem with symbolism? What about that! Do you believe that sprinkling the altar with blood really CLEANED OR PURIFIED it??? That’s what the scripture say. How does it sound encouraging to have something ‘cleaned’ with blood???
            Nobody ever imagines that sharing wine we drink Jesus blood, or by sharing bread we eat his body. Wine and bread are sheared a symbols of his blood poured for everybody and his body broken for everybody.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 6:02 pm

            Eric, do you EVER read ALL the words. “A problem with symbolism”. As I said before. READ the entire comment. Why ________ of something detestable. What does the altar have to do with it. Does the priest drink the blood. Blood in and of itself is Not detestable, but if you tell a little child to drink this as it is my blood what would he say.
            Once a person goes down the road to say it is G-d’s will that a human can be a sacrifice for man, as the pagans had done, then nothing is out of the question. Because of THAT you cannot see the detestable nature of, even symbolically, eating flesh and drinking blood. It makes me wonder, was Dracula a Xtian.
          • David says:

            August 4, 2015 at 9:35 pm

            Hi Saul Goodman,

            “Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?”

            Neither Hebrew Scriptures nor the NT testament teaches the consumption of human flesh. It is a misunderstanding held to by Catholicism that there is an actual presence of Jesus. Protestants don’t hold to that.

            The practice of the last supper which you are referring to was initiated by Jesus as a “remembrance” of what he did to include his broken body and spilled blood on the cross. If you read the NT you’ll see this is the case. The NT also refers to Him as God’s Passover Lamb for us.

            By participating individually and communally in the eating of the bread and the wine, as a remembrance of Him and the work he did for us, Christians proclaim His death until he returns, which is also noted in the NT.

            Regarding being “saved”, we are saved by righteousness in a manner of speaking whether in OT times or NT times. The Hebrew Scriptures don’t speak in detail about this.

            The difference between OT times and NT times is that now, in NT times, one need not have one’s own righteousness. One need only have the faith of accepting Jesus into one’s heart as God’s son (the Messiah) and believing that God raised His son from the dead. In this way we take on the righteousness of God’s son as our own righteousness. It is the righteousness of Jesus who paid the price for our sins which gains for us life in the age to come, not our own righteousness that gains us life. Christians hold that Isaiah 53 describes this specific process of the Messiah paying the price for our righteousness.

            The difference of having the righteousness of Jesus is that He, as the Son of God is always righteous and it is never lost and thus our salvation is never lost. We cannot depend on our own righteousness as a guarantee the same way we can depend on the Son of God because our righteousness can be lost. The Hebrew Scriptures also teach that we can lose our righteousness, and as noted above the Hebrew Scriptures don’t go into much detail about life in the age to come nor the standard for gaining life in the age to come.

            One last note. Salvation shouldn’t be confused with judgment on our behavior. We will all (including those who are saved) be judged on what we have done for the good or for the bad.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 8:43 am

            There are several points about that event that are problematic. Is there any case where Jewish rituals are symbolic of something that is detestable. If it were to be done for remembrance there is no need to make the comparison of flesh and blood. If it relates to Passover, Why then were they eating bread.
            It sounds like the definition of righteousness in Xtianity is contradictory. If it’s the case that a person takes on the righteousness of Jsus then if that person sins it is Jsus who is also sinning. And if judgment is based upon actions then Jsus righteousness is to no avail.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 4, 2015 at 11:32 pm

            Peace to you David!

            With all due respect. Your teaching is not Orthodox but pure invention from a papist mentality. You better return to the Orthodox Doctrine of the Apostles and the holy fathers of the Church.

            Protestantism being a daughter of Babylon the Prostitute you are all polluted by her fornication with earthly powers. You deny your mother but being her daughter you are contaminated in your mind with her perverted doctrine.

            Exodus 25 of the Show Bread yours to read to understand the concept of the real Presence on the Altar.

            Cleanse yourself in the bath of the water of the Orthodox Church for you to begin your life in the Messiah. Your opposition to Judaism can not hold like all Protestants you lack proper worship in the Divine Liturgy and you lack communion to the holy mysteries that you have been denied because you are not from the Holy Church. Repent and may be the Lord would have mercy on you for your path is the path of Antichrist like most Protestants for you deny the Coming in flesh of the Messiah in his Church. For we are One with him because we commune to the Bread of Life and drink to the Cup of Salvation the cup of the Spirit.

            I am sorry to be that blunt because you become you and the 10000 denominations real counter witnesses to the truth. See the real warning of saint John about your sects:

            Beware of Antichrist Deceivers

            7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.

            9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. (2 john1)

            Conclusion dear David you have been brought forth in the western protestant mentality that has deformed the true Doctrine of Christ. Return to the true Revelation in the teaching of the Apostles and the fathers of the Church and hopefully you will got out of Babylon and her daughters. Courage and blessings to you!
        • Paul summers says:

          August 5, 2015 at 1:29 pm

          Hello Sharbano

          You have gone off track here, and forgotten the NT teaching. I appreciate you dont believe in the believers Messianic Law compared to the OT law as it were. ie Christ fulfilled the Law so we dont have to.

          Keeping that in mind, the text you have just quoted is nil and void to the body of Christ, the Church.

          Tithes are a command, according to the Law. Quite simply, now believers should give according to the abundance of their hearts, not to the letter of the Law. A heart which God sees. Giving by the letter and command is just a legal ritual, giving from the heart is personal and more rewarding.

          Also the Law was given to Israel and Jews, I am neither.

          As an add on. MPF stated that h tithed according to Christianity, as ive already shown tithing is not a NT scriptual teaching. However tithing is a Tanach teaching, because you have just rightly pointed it out, so historically h participated in Jewish law.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 2:09 pm

            First of all I don’t care one whit about Xtian teaching. I only have concern for what G-d says and said Through His Torah.
            So your basis is because of “personal reward”. Your “personal” satisfaction outweighs what G-d Himself has commanded. HIS commands are a “legal Ritual”? No wonder Xtians have no problem with Jsus behavior towards his parents. No longer is honoring your parents valid but nothing but a legal ritual. Apparently the words of G-d and His Torah are meaningless to you. Certainly Xtianity, as you profess, considers Torah superficial and unworthy of any deliberation. Quite obviously G-d didn’t think so since He instructed His prophets time and again for Israel to observe these same laws.
            As written in Devarim:
            For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is at all times that we call upon Him?
            And which great nation is it that has just statutes and ordinances, as this entire Torah, which I set before you this day?
            Or Malachi:
            Keep in remembrance the Torah of Moses, My servant-the laws and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

            If your messiah fulfilled a law so “you” don’t have to then taking care of the poor, the widow, the orphan shouldn’t be of any concern to you. I suggest your issue is with G-d, as when He speaks to Isaiah
            And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, “Come, let us go up to the Lord’s mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths,” for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

            So we would have to believe everything contained in the Prophets and throughout Tanach are done away with the ending of the law, and mankind should live in anarchy, which IS when society is devoid of laws.
        • Paul summers says:

          August 5, 2015 at 3:38 pm

          Hello

          Sorry for having to reply in this manner. Not all answers have a reply link??

          When Jesus was referring to The said individuals as being children of there father the devil, He was contextually talking about His claims and the authenticity of His claims, those claims being rejected.

          What He definitely wasn’t speaking about was His coming death. The Jewish non believers were not or doing Jesus a favour. I will state though, that they didnt do themselves or any future generations any favours.

          The Kingdom was offered, but the offer was rejected.

          However I will say again that by Israels national rejection of Jesus as Messiah did me personally a favour, by Gods sovereign grace, through His Son, I have redemption from my sin.

          Jesus came to die either way. Gods plan was for His Son to die. The blood attonement was going to happen come what may. Thats why I quote Gen 3:15 as the first Messianic prophecy.

          You will see many times the texts, “that His time was not yet at hand” etc etc.

          This is the reason why the twisterd claim that Jews murdered Jesus are so stupid. A simple reading of scripture shows Jesus gave His life for the Sins of man. Jew or gentile.

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 6, 2015 at 8:30 am

            Hello Sharbano

            Do you think that giving from the heart through love is greater or less than giving from a command? Because one has to?

            Example

            If s husband told his wife 10 times aday that he loved her, you would think and hope the wife would be happy. However if the wife complained to her husband about his affections, you would ask whats the problem.

            The wife says, you never mean it, its just a ritual. 10 times aday you repeat it. But where’s the love, why don’t YOU tell me that you love me, in your own words, from the heart. Just once from the real you would outweigh the written command.

            The husband answers and says, why should I, when the Law is enough.

            Pauls letters are very clear on how Holy the Law is. The problem with the Law is that, it was a tempoary guide for man, and not a means of salvation, and the Law shows Gods righteous standards, not mans. The fullest completed works of the Law were of the heart through Christ, who is the Law, which supercedes the written letter.

            It wasnt the original word that Jesus took issue with, it was the way it was being used.

            If the written Law was still in force today, today you would be preparing a one of three trips this year to visit Jerusalem and continue in Gods commands. The temple would still be functioning etc. But it doesnt because Israels Messiah fullfilled all that was required.

            God would be asking you to fulfil a law requirement which is impossible. God doesn’t work like that. But He has given you a prophet, priest and King. Its just up to you to accept Him.

            Just to add, the world is not in anarcy at this moment in time. Seeing that not one country even Israel lives by the Torah Laws shows you something. Most countries do live by a law or a moral code. Some more than otheres, some less, but a law of such is in place. Buts its not Torah.

            You have to ask the question, if the Torah Law is able to redeem oneselfs, and its obligations are for Israel, a safe gaurding for a blessed life, one has to ask, why the persecution over 2000 yrs. God said I will bless you if you keep my Law. He never said follow my ways and I will send persecution on you.

            So you need to show me why the persecution?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 9:56 am

            Paul the Law is love – the law commands love But none of this is relevant God says that the Law is permanent and the fact that we cannot do all of the laws all of the time has no bearing on that As for your question about the persecution – we never said that we are fulfilling the law the way it is supposed to be fulfilled – we all need to improve
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 5:13 pm

            Yours is Not a valid analogy. Is it better to obey G-d’s commandment or not. Just as Israel said upon receiving the commandments, “we will do and we will listen”.
            The same with a wife, it is incumbent upon the man to please his wife.

            If that is the way Paul is to be understood, that Torah is “temporary” then he calls G-d a liar. He says it is for throughout your generations. It also says to the thousandth generation. Have we reached a thousand generations.
            You also deny what the prophets say. Ezekiel is clear that when the third temple is built all will be as it was. It also says of that time that nations will come to Jerusalem because from there Torah goes forth to the world. It also says those nations who do not come to Jerusalem to observe Sukkot will not receive rain in its time. These are all examples that show you Paul doesn’t know what he is talking about.

            G-d also says it is NOT impossible to follow. This is a Xtan invention and has no basis from G-d. Torah is still followed this day by more and more Jews, and the numbers keep rising. It is only YOUR god that doesn’t work like that. Our G-d, Hashem, does work like that.
            And that is precisely Why Israel is under so many difficulties. If Torah were being followed, especially Shemittah, their enemies would fade away. This has always been the problem and persists today. What we have now is the Erev Rav and a secular government. Instead, what we have is a country who persecutes primarily the religious. As has been taught, if all Israel would keep two Shabbats in succession Mashiach would come immediately. Unfortunately we have people who are more interested in being a “Western style nation” than being Torah observant. Israel was never meant to have a Greco-Roman style country. As it was in Torah times there are those who want a King, “like the other nations”, and That is the beginning of trouble. G-d never promised that if a “few” would be righteous that would be sufficient. This is the lesson from Sinai, ALL Israel said with One voice, “we will do and we will listen”. As it says in Ezra
            “The people then assembled as (one man) to Jerusalem”
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 6, 2015 at 11:51 am

            Shalom Rabbi!

            Why 2000 years of suffering and persecution?

            What did Israel do to receive such a chastisement?

            Between the first and second temple how many years of punishment?

            First temple destruction: destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE when they sacked the city.; reconstruction date around 538 BCE completed in 515 BCE.. The delta was 70 years between the destruction of the 1st and the completion of the 2nd temple.

            For 585 years till year 70 AD the second temple stood. Year 70 AD complete destruction till now no new temple… Why is that?

            Could it be that the death of the Messiah cursed the Jewish people for all those years? According to the Gospel of Luke the Messiah said:

            34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

            Obviously the plea to forgiveness to the Father Almighty did not prevent Him to destroy the Second Temple. Therefore how can you explain your walk according to the will of God when He chastise you for more than 19 centuries? Can you be sure to walk according to his will?

            Thank you in advance! Blessings!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 12:18 pm

            Christian
            If the rejection of Jesus brought this suffering upon us – it saved us from the greater evil – it saved us from being the perpetrators of this suffering. Instead of worrying about us – why don’t you worry about yourself – if Jesus is supposed to bring light into the world why did he bring so much hate, small-mindedness and death?
            After everything is said and done – our history is a blessing compared to yours
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:19 pm

            ypf, you seem to be unteachable, repeating the same blame over and over again .
            “if Jesus is supposed to bring light into the world why did he bring so much hate, small-mindedness and death?
            It is not jesus who brings the hate saying “have love for one another”.
            It is people who reject God’s word and misusing it take it against others. God can bring you so much light but if you have clouds you won’t see it. The same it is with people who misuse, twist it and cover the truth from others, or hide the light with their sins and evil actions.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:08 pm

            “ypf, you seem to be unteachable, repeating the same blame over and over again ”
            Is that Your purpose here, to “teach US”. Really??

            The problem is, you have been unable to provide any convincing arguments. Your entire analysis is based upon circular reasoning. The Rabbi is right, you have no concept of our beliefs. A good example is not a single Xtian was even aware that the Xtian text speaks of Gentiles keeping the “Noachide Laws”. They ALL imagined it was some recent Rabbinic invention. There are a great many other examples also. So, we can conclude we know Your bible better than Xtians do.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:26 pm

            sharbano, “The problem is, you have been unable to provide any convincing arguments.”
            Even a convincing argument will be nothing for somebody who is unable to open himself to the spoken words. So I am not concerned about you ‘ being convinced or not” . You may be listening and never hearing, seeing and being unable to perceive… But keep praying to God for the answer.
            You simply see no need for God using a person for our redemption. If you do not see a reason, you will try to find arguments against Jesus in every of his words and all cgristianity will look foolish to you.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 9:37 am

            Eric:

            “If you do not see a reason, you will try to find arguments against Jesus in every of his words and all cgristianity will look foolish to you.”

            In other words, you have to believe in Jesus for all of it to make sense. Got it.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 10:54 am

            It’s quite the interesting dichotomy.
            It can be said that No one has come to Jsus, intellectually, or analytically. The analytically approach has never worked. By all accounts it has been through emotional distress. Michael Brown is the epitome of this. He has detailed his “come to Jsus” moment many times.
            It is also fascinating that Torah was written and formulated in such a way that requires an analytical approach. Rashi is the epitome of This approach. Therefore, the Jew has been accustomed to relying on This approach.
            This is the dichotomy. The analytically approach cannot stand on emotion, and an emotional bond cannot be analytical. One is “What do I do for G-d”, and the other is “What does G-d do for me”. It is epitomized in the Cautionary vs. Directive rules.
            Directive being :”Do to others what you want them to do to you”
            Cautionary being: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow”
            Directive imposes Your will on others, whereas cautionary doesn’t seek your will on others, but attempts to not be the source of any one’s will, thus Free Will.
            An extreme case would be that a masochist would be allowed to be a sadist, according to the Directive.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 5:26 pm

            We are told WHY the punishment between the First and Second Temples. It was because of Shemittah violations. Also your dates on wrong with the Babylonians. The total is 490 years as told by Daniel.
            If the death of your messiah was what was to happen WHY would THAT be cause for destruction. It SHOULD be just the opposite. Instead there were the Xtian and a number of others who split the Jewish nation. The divisions are the cause. Furthermore, Jsus was the worst culprit. Not only did he Not help heal divisions he did everything he could to create even more.
    • Paul summers says:

      August 3, 2015 at 2:57 pm

      Concerned Reader says:
      August 1, 2015 at 6:56 pm
      Even if the verses in the NT that call Jews “children of the Devil,” etc. could be radically reinterpreted it doesn’t change the fact that for at least 1800 years of Christian history, Christians themselves, along with their sanctioned reading of scripture, canon of laws, and actions have done evil against Jews with those NT texts, without cause.

      Hello

      Again I will show you the error of mistaken rendering of scripture.

      You state that Jesus is calling Jews “children of the devil”. I take it from that, you are assuming that Jesus is calling ALL Jews devils.?

      Thats exactly what happened to fuel Jewish persecution. Scripture being read to to suit there own agendas and beliefs.

      Your beliefs are different, but the context is still taken out of context.

      Jesus is NOT calling ALL Jews children of the devil. Contextually He is aligning the Jews He is directly talking too, children of the devil. He is using that language in context, because the devil is the father of lies, and the Jews to whom He is addresses are in agreement with the devil. The devil is their father, the father of lies, not the Father of Heaven, The God of Israel. They confess that Adonai is their Father, but actually they are rejecting Him, because they are rejecting His Son.

      Yes its a direct rebuke, Jesus is saying what is.

      Im not trying to soften the text here.

      Im sure the disciples would have something to say if Jesus were painting all Jews as devils children. And Im sure the NT would not have been written by Jews if their teacher thought His own disciples as devils.

      I dont disagree with you that these texts have been used to fuel pogroms etc. That is obvious, but now you seem to agree with the antisemitic.

      If you dont agree with the antisemitic, then you must admit the other, that the NT doesnt teach antisemitism? You cannot sit on both sides of the fence. But thats the strange thing here, you are focusing on what isnt taught, and dismissing everything that is, just like the antisemitic. Odd???

      If you read the passage in question again, with the view of what ive just said, you will see what I mean. If you cant see it, its because you read it like they do. Out of context.

      Reply
      • yourphariseefriend says:

        August 3, 2015 at 3:53 pm

        Paul Jesus is “explaining” that the reason people reject him is because they are children of the devil – as if there is no moral justification for questioning his ridiculous claims. That is dehumanizing your opponents

        Reply
        • ChristianPaul says:

          August 3, 2015 at 5:03 pm

          Peace to you!

          10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

          13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

          16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?(1John 3 NKJV)

          compared with

          Isaiah 1:3-5 (NKJV)

          3 The ox knows its owner
          And the donkey its master’s crib;
          But Israel does not know,
          My people do not consider.”

          4 Alas, sinful nation,
          A people laden with iniquity,
          A brood of evildoers,
          Children who are corrupters!
          They have forsaken the Lord,
          They have provoked to anger
          The Holy One of Israel,
          They have turned away backward.

          Anti-humans, anti-africans, anti-semite, anti-christians, anti-…. all evil comes from a perverted heart, not from Scriptures telling the truth. We must combat all forms of evil and not take religion as a pretext to justify our perverted hearts. All men are sinners and all must repent and walk according to the will of God.

          Blessings to you and pray for me a sinner!

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 11:26 pm

            Christian You write that all evil comes from a perverted heart – I agree to you – the question we are discussing is – did a perverted heart write the book of John?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 4, 2015 at 2:20 am

            Dear witness of the Torah!

            I may understand that you rebuke John rebuke of the Jewish Authority. But I am no expert, is it not true that the Jewish Authority were Sadducee who were enemy of the Christ and the Pharisees. Is it not true that many Pharisees were calling Yeshua Rabbi and were debating with him like all rabbis debated among themselves on points of the Torah.

            John Gospel is written after the Temple destruction having been witness of the consequence of having rejected the Son of God which as a penalty for the Jewish Nation would be immense. Is he not rightly fire up against the Jewish Authority for having conducted the Jewish Nation to dispersion and perdition for centuries and centuries. What will be the amount of suffering the Messiah predicted when he said:

            ”31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”

            John reaction is made with zeal for the truth and holy anger at the Jewish Authority for being a prophet he saw in consequences what it will bear for his People. He rebuked for love of his brethren that it might wake them up on the grave sin they made in delivering the Christ to the pagans. Is it not forbidden for a Jew to deliver to the Gentiles another Jew. Crime was made. A charge has been made that History has shown us how bad it was for the Jewish Nation to have rejected their own Messiah.

            As an Orthodox Christian all Canonized Scriptures Jewish and Christian by the Orthodox Church are for us the word of God and we can not reject not even a word. It is like in Orthodox Judaism were each word of the Torah can not be rejected if you still want to be considered as a Jew. The word of God is the word of God.

            Now as witness of the Orthodox Church what John wrote in his Gospel and his letter and his Revelation is the word of God for like Moses he has seen the Glory of God and has touch the Messiah of Israel and we believe our forefathers in the glorious Faith. We love you and we love all of God creation. If some of my brothers have persecuted or did wrong on you and your people I will ask personally for your forgiveness and ask you to pray for me a sinner.

            May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you always and may you continue to love more and more your people and may He one day reunite Ephraim and Judah!

            Many blessings!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 4, 2015 at 6:30 am

            Christian You don’t seem to get it – the issue is not – “who” Jesus is rebuking – the issue is – what is he saying – and he is saying that rejecting him is not because he didn’t fulfill even one prophecy that would justify his claims – but that anyone who rejects him MUST be a lover of darkness and a child of the devil
          • Sharbano says:

            August 4, 2015 at 7:02 am

            It is More likely that the events of that time, and the Churban, were the result of sects like Xtians, Sadducees, Hellenists, Essenes etc that strayed far from Torah. It was ONLY those who associated with the Pharisees that survived from that time until today. ALL those sects, including Xtianity, died out. Any semblance of Judaism within Xtianity was soon expunged when it became Roman. It is Quite interesting that a person named Saul would become a Roman name, Paul, As a result he would argue Against Torah and the requirement of Gentiles keeping the Noachide laws. He would cause much dissension within the ranks, and Then went only to those Gentiles who had no background in Judaism. He would thus be the only arbiter of truth, his own truth. Since those Gentiles didn’t have access to the Jewish texts they weren’t aware of all his distortions of those texts. They were unwilling participants of the deception.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 4, 2015 at 9:07 am

            Peace to you Sharbano and YPF!

            The Roman church is the Roman church. Orthodox churches are from the root of Judaism. You should study more your claim that Christianity is only Roman. That is not the reality. And the sect of Christianity did survive. Of course it is not a question of numbers. But in History Christian Orthodox have been persecuted by the Romans. Please read the real story of the Crusades and how they persecuted us.

            Therefore pull out your American Protestant and Roman glasses and go ask rabbis in Russia about Orthodoxy they may tell you a different story.

            Concerning Saint John his Gospel is without any reproach for it is the word of God decided and canonized by the Assembly of the ancients the bishops of the Lord. You are opposing our sacred text on the basis of human perceptions and misconceptions. The assembly (council) of bishops and the Church has canonized those text it is not permitted for Christians Orthodox to even questioned it as it is not permitted for you to questioned the Tanakh which was canonized by the assembly of your ancients. Therefore respect of each other is the basis of any discussion or debate. Questioning the word of any Scriptures bring unbelief to which the world is now plagued.

            I will say something bold: destroy all the Orthodox Churches in the world where the Divine Liturgy is performed and hell will come on earth. Look how the enemy is destroying the Christians of the Middle East that will bring Hell in the Middle East including Israel and accelerate the venue of the Antichrist. We are the intercessors of the world destroy us and the world will become a desert.

            Now I respect you and consider you but spreading disbelief and non-respect of our sacred Text is promoting irreligion to which you become unrighteous for righteousness comes from faith in God to which He gives his grace to accomplish his Holy will. We are to combat evil and impiousness not religious people and doers of good. Please be careful! Thank you!

            Many blessings!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 4, 2015 at 9:27 am

            How can it be from the root of Judaism when it is antithetical to Torah. You’ve had to twist and distort the words of Torah in order to fabricate an eternal messiah, son-god. What is pervasive throughout Tanach is G-d needs No One else, yet Xtianity says a single man, a created being, is the one who brings redemption. You have engineered a doctrine that says G-d shares His glory with another being when G-d says He shares His Glory with no one.

            If your texts are such a sacred text why did Stephen, who was guided by a Xtian holy spirit, speak with so many mistakes. If it’s From G-d it HAS to be without errors Or mistakes. By his account we can dismiss the entirety of the Xtian text. It it’s the word of G-d it HAS to be an inerrant word of G-d, otherwise it is not the word of G-d.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 4, 2015 at 10:39 am

            Christian
            Are you saying that we should respect the holy books of Islam, Hinduism and Mormonism also because they were canonized by an assembly of religious people? This makes no sense can you explain yourself?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 4, 2015 at 12:01 pm

            Dear Rabbi and Sharbano, Peace to you!

            First Rabbi you asked: ” Christian Are you saying that we should respect the holy books of Islam, Hinduism and Mormonism also because they were canonized by an assembly of religious people? This makes no sense can you explain yourself?”

            Very interesting question: 1) on an Orthodox basis all other religion other than Orthodoxy are false for having heretical views on God or misconceptions or false teaching or simply incomplete doctrines.

            Islam for instance teaches the belief in One God like all monotheistic Religion including Orthodox Christianity even though you might disagree. Islam teaches that Yeshua was a true prophet and born of the Virgin Mary. It follows the Torah in many aspect. Islam to my humble opinion seems a religion that promote religiousness and fight impiousness. Therefore I respect my brother Muslim. Their women are modest and dressed modestly. The veiled their hairs like in Orthodox churches when we worship. They eat Kosher food and many good things. Have they some misconceptions on certain things? I will let the One God judge them for who am I to judge them. They are the son of Ishmael and just for that they are praiseworthy for Ishmael was a son of Abraham our father in the faith.

            Hinduism is very difficult to accept for Monotheistic religions having a multitude of false gods to whom they worship. They are one of the last remaining polytheistic religion and on an Orthodox point of view they are idolaters. One time an Orthodox Monk went in a visiting tour to visit India and something very strange happened, while approaching an ancient pagan temple he felt in the air a power of marvels and fascinations and reacted by invoking the prayer of the holy name of Yeshua Son of God pray for me a sinner. The spirit of marvels rapidly stop is charming presence and when he past by the guru of the place this guru looked at him with evil eyes. On that basis Hinduism is one of the last pagan religion instated by the influence of demonic forces.

            Mormonism is a religion who came from a Freemason Joseph Smith that got a special revelation where basically the Messiah and the Lucifer are brothers. They have a special book and an assembly of so-called prophets and so on. I have talked with them and like many cults they are mainly a regionally based sect addressed to the American mindset. They certainly will never take old in all nations for they are very sectarian.

            Now back to Orthodoxy! It is very important to understand the major differences between the Roman church and her daughters the many Protestant Sects and the Orthodox Church. Romanism is a Prostitute that morphs herself with the wind of the moment. Their belief have some truth for She took it from the Orthodox Church but the Papacy for us Orthodox is anti-Christian and ante-Christ ante in the Greek sense of taking the place of God and promoting as being the supreme spiritual power on this earth. This is false doctrine and highly prideful. The sin of Rome is pride and vain glory substituted herself to the Messiah and changing time and belief to suit pagan Roman emperors.

            The Orthodox Church kept the Divine Liturgy from the beginning and works in Council and Synods the equivalent of the ancient Sanhedrin. Even our Liturgy is based on the Judaism of the Second temple. In all Orthodox churches we have the Holy of holies with the Menorah with seven candles and the Book of Holy Scriptures on the Altar. We have the consecrated bread, the Bread of the Presence on the Altar in the Tabernacle.

            The Table of Showbread
            …29″You shall make its dishes and its pans and its jars and its bowls with which to pour drink offerings; you shall make them of pure gold. 30″You shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before Me at all times. (Exodus 25)

            In conclusion the Orthodox Church is the accomplishment of the Second Temple Judaism. We are the keepers of the Temple service in all our churches. We are the keepers of the Orthodox Way the Right Path who brings us to salvation and the exaltation of our beings in the Heavens. We love our brothers Jews and we look forward to discuss with respect our common roots.

            As a seed grows and develops her roots the tree grow to what is different from the appearance of the roots but by the dna we know that the fruits of this tree comes from the roots that we do not see anymore. Ancient Judaism is the root of all Monotheistic Religion and the common trunk is the Messiah where the branches of the multiple churches gives us the many fruits which are the saints.

            Many blessings to you!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 5, 2015 at 9:12 am

            Christian So you acknowledge that just because some people call their books “religious works” – that doesn’t mean that we need to automatically respect them (at least in the cases of Hinduism and Mormonism) – this being the case you cannot demand that we respect your Christian Scriptures
        • Paul summers says:

          August 3, 2015 at 5:10 pm

          Hello YPF
          Questioning Jesus claims isnt the actual issue. All things must be tested. The apostles taught to check and verify all claims regarding spiritual matters. Its totally rejecting His claims which is the issue.
          The reason Jesus is so emphatic with His rebuke to the Jewish audience is because they should have known better. Being recievers of the Law, The oracles of God, they were in a unique position compared to the gentiles.
          The wording dehumanised is only used by non believers. Its a word which you use and attatch to the text to strengthen your viewpoint. Its also a view which the antisemitic uses to beat Jews.

          You state the claims were ridiculous, Jesus authenticated His claims dozens of times. It was this audience that Jesus took issue with.

          Would you say that Adonai was dehumanising gentiles when He told Joshua, Saul to wipe certain tribes and nations, thats men, women and children, from the face of the earth?

          No.

          If you compare the two, a rebuke is just that, a rebuke.

          Reply
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:19 pm

            Paul S . Good points!!!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 3, 2015 at 11:32 pm

            Paul The word “dehumanize” means to cultivate an attitude which prevents you from looking at someone or a group of people as fellow human beings – The Jewish people were indeed in a unique position to judge the claims of Jesus since they received the oracles from God they had the paramount responsibility to analyze and to test – and nothing that the Christian Scriptures claim that Jesus did justifies his claim for being the Messiah – we went through this once – Jesus claims that because he fulfilled Psalm 41:19 this means that he is the Messiah – well then it would have to mean that he sinned because verse 4 tells us of the speaker’s sins – but Jesus claimed to be sinless (which is a claim that can never be proven) So were the Jews supposed to take his claim seriously?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 4, 2015 at 2:29 am

            Dear witness! You wrote: ”Jesus claims that because he fulfilled Psalm 41:19 this means that he is the Messiah – well then it would have to mean that he sinned because verse 4 tells us of the speaker’s sins – but Jesus claimed to be sinless (which is a claim that can never be proven) So were the Jews supposed to take his claim seriously?”

            I checked Psalm 41:19 and verse 19 does not exist. I am trying to find where in this Psalm we talk about the Messiah. Can you please correct or explain? Thank you in advance!

            Peace!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 4, 2015 at 6:27 am

            Paul and Christian I am sorry for the typo – I meant verse 10 – not 19
        • Paul summers says:

          August 9, 2015 at 8:40 am

          August 6, 2015 at 9:56 am
          Paul the Law is love – the law commands love But none of this is relevant God says that the Law is permanent and the fact that we cannot do all of the laws all of the time has no bearing on that As for your question about the persecution – we never said that we are fulfilling the law the way it is supposed to be fulfilled – we all need to improve

          Hello

          Im not sure now on your route of arguement. It seems like now you are completely ignoring all your previous arguements concerning the Law. Infact im quite agaust at your now apparent new view.

          Firstly i wouldnt disagree with the statement that the Law cannot be fully observed. Thats the excact arguement that Pauls letters speak off! That arguement and view has been completely rebuked by yourselves more times than I can remember. But now, you seem to use it as a defence??

          Secondly I wouldnt disagree that the Law is Love and commands Love. Again NT teaching, which again, has been previously rebuked.

          Thirdly, I wouldnt disagree that the Law is permanent. Jesus made His point about Him fulfilling the Law, do this as the Law commands etc. The Law was never the issue, it was the way it had been malipulatted through the ages since it was given, culminating into a “Law” which was unrecognisable from its original setting.

          God sent His Son, as the express image of the Law/God to fulfill its Holy requirements.

          The Law, your Law, scriptures state that all the words and statutes are to be kept according to Gods command. The Law given was the parameters. Do what is in the Law, and do not do, what is not in the Law.

          Im struggling to see in Deut ch28 say, where it states, just do your best and give it a go. You all need to improve.

          Yes, we all need to improve, that’s a fact, but the comnand wasnt given to try, it was given to be followed. But God is no fool. He knows it cant be kept fully, hence the blood attonment which sanctifies the Law regarding sin which theologically accompanied Gods requirements.

          You see now why the Christian will argue that the Law doesnt bring salvation. Because it was never meant to. It was a guide to reveal the sinnful nature by conviction, and it showed Gods High sovereign standards, not mans. Just as Pauls letters shows.

          You are correct that you are not fulfilling the Law. Its no Christian conspiracy that you have no priest, temple etc. Its Gods despensational requirements that the Mosaic Law has been fully accomplished through His Son, now the Messianic Law. Until you as a individual accepts Christ as Israels Messiah you will be still be in rebellion with no saviour.

          If you see Jesus as Love, the One who redeemed you personally as the Law required, you will see Him as Lord God and King of the Jews.

          The donkey saw The Angel of Lord standing in front, yet balaam didnt. It wasnt until after three strikes that God opened balaam eyes to the truth. Why are you striking me said God through the donkey?
          The same question was asked of Saul on the road to damascus.

          So what is it with you, that stops you seeing Jesus as The Christ??????

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:34 am

            Paul God tells us to keep the Law with all our heat and all our soul – He knows that we have human hearts I have been consistent on this matter throughout this blog – where do I contradict this point? And for you to ask why we fail to “see Jesus” is ridiculous – besides the hundreds of posts on this blog which clearly answer your question – just look at yourself. the only way you can argue for Jesus is by trampling on God’s holy word – why would I want to join you? – I am talking about your treatment of Psalm 41 for example
      • Sharbano says:

        August 3, 2015 at 6:56 pm

        Are you trying to assert that Xtianity doesn’t condemn ALL Pharisees. J’sus gives a parable of the “Pharisee” and the tax collector. We know what Jsus said about the tax collectors and to equate his disdain for those as being righteous compared to the Pharisee is unbelievable.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          August 3, 2015 at 7:30 pm

          Jesus spoke with Nicodemus. He was also a pharisee, , yet he had nothing against him.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 3, 2015 at 7:40 pm

            That’s really comforting. Even the most vile anti-semites will claim they have a “Jewish friend”. It’s the Totality of what is said.
        • Paul summers says:

          August 4, 2015 at 4:28 am

          Hello Sharbano
          Thats right. Jesus or the NT doesn’t condemn ALL pharisee’s. Thats just a Non believing concept. Its the same mis guided idea that ALL Jews are children of the devil. Which is used in defence to strengthen a certain point of view.

          Jesus said and taught that He didn’t come for the “righteous ” but sinners unto repentance.

          Jesus came for all of mankind, Jew, gentile, rich ,poor, black, white, slave or free. The parable of the tax collector and the pharisee is a just that, a teaching of outward righteousness clothed in fine garments, compared to a outward sinner, who truly repents with his hidden heart.
          Jesus isnt saying ALL religious leaders were bad, per se, even though He did take major issue with most. But not all.

          This pin pointing of Jesus to the pharisees isnt directed because He doesn’t like them full stop. The leaders were key in Law, Judaism. People were looking at the pharisees for their approval as it were. “Is this Messiah”?, No the Pharisees said. The pharisees were leading the people away from the truth.

          That is why He rebuked them so, with all the woes etc.

          Context is the word, not antisemitic teaching.

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 4, 2015 at 6:38 am

            If the intention was merely to teach righteousness he wouldn’t have used those two examples. He is being quite informative. His hatred for the tax collectors is overshadowed by the Pharisees. He chose these Two for a specific reason.

            The problem Xtianity has is it has no comparative examples. Xtians don’t study Talmud, Or study under a Rabbi, in order to understand and realize how typical Rabbis teach Torah. It is why I have stated the text just doesn’t sound like Jews wrote it. Considering the popularity of Judaism at that time, mainly for its morality, there were many Gentiles who had a basic knowledge of Judaism, much more so than these days. In this case many would have known and heard some of the Morning Prayers and even today there are those who misunderstand its meaning and purpose.

            This can be compared to the situation, as a child, when those would accuse Jews of Xrist killing. I became so fed up I told them they should praise those Jews since without his death they wouldn’t have their salvation. Since the text relates that Jsus knew he would have to die and be resurrected he should have praised the Pharisees instead of attacking them. They are fulfilling a need.
28. ChristianPaul says:

    July 31, 2015 at 11:25 am

    Hi Dina! Peace to you! Hot tempers can say bad things out of haste. Be careful! I would not like you to fall because of me. Thank you!

    1) You do not like liars. That is good but you must be merciful. For how will you deal with yourself and your neighbors.

    Psalm 116:
    10 I believed, therefore I spoke,
    “I am greatly afflicted.”
    11 I said in my haste,
    “All men are liars.”

    Also according to John the Apostle the liar is:

    1 John 2:22
    Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

    Revelation 21:8
    But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Therefore my heart pray that you will realize that the lie is more awful in consequence than what you are accusing me. I will pray for you for I feel your heart is full of anger hoping that it will not cloud your judgement. Blessings!

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      July 31, 2015 at 11:29 am

      So I am a liar and an antichrist and will burn in a lake of fire?
      You just said about sheep and goats that contradicted the above, and YOU want US to believe in a mass of contradictions. I don’t think so.

      Reply
    • Dina says:

      July 31, 2015 at 11:30 am

      Hi CP,

      I am not at all angry. I find you too amusing to be angry with. And I find your many inconsistencies fascinating, so I must point them out.

      In all your self-righteous lecture, you did not answer any of my questions, nor did you retract your statement that I called all Christians Protestants. That is, my friend, a lie, and if you are a man you will admit it and apologize for it.

      So please answer all my questions. Your lectures are irrelevant.

      Reply
    • Dina says:

      July 31, 2015 at 11:35 am

      CP, so if you believe in Jesus, you can’t be a liar even if you say things that are obviously false? But if you do not believe in Jesus, then you can’t be an honest person? Now, that’s might convenient for you, Monsieur CP!

      Is that what John is saying?

      Also, you just said before that you don’t know who is damned, that’s for God to decide. Now you quote scripture that clearly says that all those who don’t believe in Jesus are damned. So can you explain the contradiction? Also, I brought you more scriptural citations in another comment that showed the contradiction.

      You want to call me a liar on the basis of John, not on the basis of anything that I said. You told an actual lie and you are not man enough to admit it. So first take out the beam from your own eye, before removing the non-existent splinter in mine.

      Reply
29. ChristianPaul says:

    August 2, 2015 at 2:00 am

    Shalom!

    1) We accuse Christians of idol worshipping because we worship the Son in the flesh.
    2) Idol worshipping is to worship all that is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov.
    3) The Son being ONE with the Father and the Holy Spirit is the God of Abraham
    4) Therefore it can not be idol worshipping

    1)The Schema Israel is clear: YHWH is ONE
    2) ONE with His Shekhinah (the Holy Spirit) and with His Son (the Word)
    3) The Indivisible Trinity is One God
    4) ONE Divine Essence expressing Three Divine Persons

    1)The Father- YHWH the Source of All
    2)The Son -YHSH the Beloved-Begotten
    3)The Holy Spirit -YHWH the Beloved-Bride

    1)The Son sent into our world taking our form to enter in Communion with us giving the debarim elohim to make us holy and children of YHWH
    2) The Holy Spirit sent into our world giving us the matrix to transform and sanctify us to be holy and become spouse of YHWH

    Why the Incarnation and the Crucifixion?

    1)a)The Incarnation is to link our Humanity with the Divinity
    b) To share our destiny and give us the means of Salvation

    2) The Crucifixion is take all the sins of the world and consume them in the fire of the Infinite and Divine Justice to give us the Redemption gaining us back the full liberty and mercy of the Grace Divine

    Is this predicted in the Tanakh?

    Yes it is the New Covenant predicted by the Prophets to make man divine not by his own righteousness but by the transforming power of his grace that makes man holy and divine. The path is God first loved us and descended to us to elevate us by his pure mercy to the rank of his sons to partake to his ineffable Glory. WHO IS LIKE GOD!

    Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 2, 2015 at 4:18 am

      Hi Christian,

      ” The Son being ONE with the Father and the Holy Spirit is the God of Abraham
      4) Therefore it can not be idol worshipping”

      The Son being a human, he can not be one with the Father. Also, Jesus being human, you break this rule:

      “2) Idol worshipping is to worship all that is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov.”

      And since you are Orthodox, John of Damascene is very important for you. He explains:

      (De Fide Orth. iv, 11): “The precious wood, as having been sanctified by the contact of His holy body and blood, should be meetly worshiped; as also His nails, His lance, and His sacred dwelling-places, such as the manger, the cave and so forth.”

      You worship body, blood, nails, lance, manger, cave, and so forth. So you clearly worship the created. To worship a manger and nails, what more is needed?

      Now, to prove your illogical point, you have to say the manger is one with the Father. Wich is a nonsense. But it is your Holy Tradition and Church Fathers theology.

      “1)The Son sent into our world taking our form to enter in Communion with us giving the debarim elohim to make us holy and children of YHWH”

      Since Israel was the first born son of God before the incarnation, your point is meaningless. There was no need for your incarnation to have us holy and children of God.

      “1)a)The Incarnation is to link our Humanity with the Divinity”

      Again, Moses knew God face to face without any need for an incarnation. Unless you want to tell us God incarnated in a burning bush. But then who incarnated? Only the son in your theology. So you would have to tell us that the Son first incarnated in a burning bush, then got unincarnated, then incarnated again. So there is no need for an incarnation to link Humanity to God.

      “b) To share our destiny and give us the means of Salvation”

      God already gave a mean of salvation wich did not entail any incarnation. And for sharing our destiny, this is completely contradictory. You must specify your claim. You claim Jesus was sinless. So your god did not share our destiny. He shared our destiny because he died? So are you saying that God died? If God died, he is not God. Self contradictory claim.

      “2) The Crucifixion is take all the sins of the world and consume them in the fire of the Infinite and Divine Justice to give us the Redemption gaining us back the full liberty and mercy of the Grace Divine”

      Your claim presuposes that we had no liberty before that in the Law. Wich is false:

      And I shall walk at liberty; For I have sought thy precepts. Psalm 119:45

      Liberty means keeping God’s Law. Not having someone being punished for you.

      “Yes it is the New Covenant predicted by the Prophets to make man divine not by his own righteousness but by the transforming power of his grace that makes man holy and divine.”

      This has nothing to do with the incarnation, but with the circumcision of the heart that turns our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh, that brings repentance from our sins and keeping the precepts of God:

      “And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live” (Deuteronomy 30:6)

      Jeremiah told us it was possible without any incarnation:

      “Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done” (Jeremiah 4:4).

      In fact, having our heart circumcised has one implication that falsifies your claim that it has any link to Jesus or Incarnation:

      And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. Deuteronomy 30:8

      2 verses after saying he would circumcise the heart of his people, God links it to doing all the commandments. Notice he is not talking about vague commandments, wwhere you would tell us it means eating jesus flesh or drink his blood, no, it is doing the commandments he gave his people THIS DAY. It means the Law of Moses.

      So basicallly, this is a nice rent, but it is self contradictory and meaningless.

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 2, 2015 at 9:03 am

        Hi Saul!

        Interesting points but I find contradictory to the Tanakh always talking about God salvation:
        Deuteronomy 32:15
        “But Yeshurun grew fat and kicked (you grew fat, thick, gross!). He abandoned God his Maker; he scorned the Rock, his salvation.
        2 Samuel 22:36
        You give me your shield, which is salvation; your answers make me great.
        2 Samuel 22:47
        “Adonai is alive! Blessed is my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock of my salvation,

        1)How then do you define salvation?

        Moses when he saw the form of God his image do you think he saw the Father. Impossible if not he would have died! He saw the Son in the flesh. For the Eternal Messiah is Master of Time and Space. He was in the beginning and he is in the end. The Alpha and the Omega; the Alef and the Tet. Did you ever notice the complement of object in Hebrew is preceded by Alef-Tet the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet and the last letter.

        2)Why is that?

        Now do you know a person without sin a perfect one who never disobey the least of the commandments of the Lord. If someone disobey one of the commandments he has disobey the entire Torah. Men achieving perfect obedience has never been seen on this earth. Proverbs say that the just sins 7 times. Therefore holiness is only possible in the holy One for without grace no one as the discernment of applying a perfect execution of all the prescriptions. The only way is through the Messiah the author of the Torah the way in which through repentance we enter the life of growth in the perfect man who is also the Holy One.

        3)Do you know any perfect and holy man in the eyes of God not in the eyes of man?

        Saint John Damascene talks about the cup being sanctified by the fact of God touching it. The temple was holy not in itself but because God was present in his Divine Presence. As the soil where Moses saw the burning bush was sanctified by the manifestation of God. For the Orthodox church we venerate for instance Icons but we do not worship them. To say that we worship images is non-sense. Pure worship is reserved to God!

        Do you worship or venerate the Torah? Some rabbis worship the Torah take the example of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who loves of Torah was almost more important than God. I am paraphrasing Rabbi Yosef Mizrahi. Please verify! Thank you!

        Conclusion the Humanity of the Messiah was the form that the Son took to manifest is presence among us. The Immanu-EL! He chooses this way out of mercy for the last of his Creation. That is the Liberty of God! Who are we to go against Him? All his miracles and his Beautiful Resurrection testifies that His words were true. The myriads of his children in the faith testifies that his dabarim elohim are real seed of life to become the sons of God for it is written:

        12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

        …
        16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him

        Peace and blessings!

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 2, 2015 at 9:36 am

          I can see why you went from the “order of Eliyah” to your new name. In this way you can forgo any of the previous questions.
          What you Have admitted here is that you “worship” a man of flesh, a creation. If he was a master of “time and space” he could NOT have been walking around and he certainly would not have died, resurrection notwithstanding. Only G-d is beyond time and space. By your reckoning there would Have to be at least two gods. According to Torah G-d says there is No One BESIDE him. What does ‘beside’ mean. You cannot have a god AND a messiah, son in the flesh, and still maintain a ONE G-d.
          Furthermore, you have NO understanding of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef OR Yosef Mizrachi. You distort Them as you have distorted Torah.
          So, E. Lion, you fool no one here.

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 2, 2015 at 11:49 am

            Hi Christian

            “Moses when he saw the form of God his image do you think he saw the Father. Impossible if not he would have died! He saw the Son in the flesh. For the Eternal Messiah is Master of Time and Space. He was in the beginning and he is in the end. The Alpha and the Omega; the Alef and the Tet. Did you ever notice the complement of object in Hebrew is preceded by Alef-Tet the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet and the last letter.”

            First, Moses didn’t litteraly see the image of God. Deuteronomy 4 is clear no one saw any form whatsoever. Seconde, if he saw Jesus in the flesh, then incarnation took place in Moses time and couldn’t happen twice. And so you are refuting the NT.

            “Now do you know a person without sin a perfect one who never disobey the least of the commandments of the Lord. If someone disobey one of the commandments he has disobey the entire Torah. Men achieving perfect obedience has never been seen on this earth. Proverbs say that the just sins 7 times. Therefore holiness is only possible in the holy One for without grace no one as the discernment of applying a perfect execution of all the prescriptions. The only way is through the Messiah the author of the Torah the way in which through repentance we enter the life of growth in the perfect man who is also the Holy One.”

            Nonsense, even if you disobey, what matters is repentance then. No need for perfection. Just since repentance.

            “Saint John Damascene talks about the cup being sanctified by the fact of God touching it. The temple was holy not in itself but because God was present in his Divine Presence. As the soil where Moses saw the burning bush was sanctified by the manifestation of God. For the Orthodox church we venerate for instance Icons but we do not worship them. To say that we worship images is non-sense. Pure worship is reserved to God!

            Do you worship or venerate the Torah? Some rabbis worship the Torah take the example of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who loves of Torah was almost more important than God. I am paraphrasing Rabbi Yosef Mizrahi. Please verify! Thank you!”

            Problem is that you are lying about John of Damascene who does not talk about veneration but Latria. Bring us exact quote please. I’m not paraphrasng some guy on youtube, but your Church Father. So do the same and bring an exact quote. If you don’t, case closed.

            “Conclusion the Humanity of the Messiah was the form that the Son took to manifest is presence among us. The Immanu-EL!”

            Try to prove it next time, thank you.
          • David says:

            August 2, 2015 at 3:42 pm

            Hi Saul Goodman,

            You wrote:
            First, Moses didn’t litteraly see the image of God. Deuteronomy 4 is clear no one saw any form whatsoever.

            My response:

            I’m not arguing that Moses saw Jesus, but your conclusion that Moses didn’t see God is not scriptural and just as much in error.

            First of all, your reference to Deuteronomy 4 is out of place because it is Moses who is addressing the Israelites (not God addressing Moses “along with” the Israelites). Deuteronomy 1:1 “These are the words that “Moses spoke to all Israel” beyond the Jordan…” He (Moses) is not referring to himself when he says in Deuteronomy 4:15 “Since you (the Israelites) saw no form when the YHWH spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire…”

            Furthermore it was not in “the fire” at Horeb that Moses saw the form of God, it was from the cleft of the rock (not the fire) at Horeb that God made His goodness pass before Moses and where Moses saw God’s back wherein he beheld the form of God.

            Exodus 33:20 But, He said, “you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.”

            Exodus 33:23 then I will take away my hand, and YOU SHALL SEE MY BACK; but my face shall not be seen.

            Numbers 12:8 With him I speak mouth to mouth – clearly, not in riddles; and HE BEHOLDS THE FORM OF THE YHWH.

            Exodus 33:11
            11 “And HaShem spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. …”

            Exodus 6:3
            3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as G-d Almighty, but by My name YHWH [This divine name is traditionally not pronounced; instead, Adonai, (the) Lord, is regularly substituted for it.] I made Me not known to them.

            When you compare the above verses in scripture and others like them, it becomes clear that Moses heretofore had a unique relationship with God (not shared by anyone including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joshua up until that time). Moses, more than any other man, had a unique intimacy with God and he behold the form of God.

            But as glorious and unique as the God/Moses relationship was, Moses’ intimate access to God was not unlimited. For example he did NOT behold the “face” of God which would have “represented” the highest level of intimacy. This ultimate glory was not given to Moses. But we conclude from that, that Moses didn’t behold the form of God on a level higher than any other man.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 2, 2015 at 4:37 pm

            All the scriptures you cite show that G-d cannot be seen. The difference between Moshe and all other prophets is that he understands G-d clearly whereas everyone else requires an interpretation for the meaning. Moshe sees on the intellectual level. He Knows when it is G-d when others would not. This is why he “sees” G-d. He ‘sees’, ‘understands’. But even Moshe cannot see G-d in a physical realm. The word in Numbers is Not the word for ‘form’ but ‘Temunat’ which is an image, a similitude. To understand it in its simplest form G-d uses forms of nature to show when He is not hidden. It is like when a person speaks of a tornado and uses the reference of “the finger of G-d”. No one will say that rotation of nature is G-d’s literal finger. This is also what the Israelites saw at Sinai, the obvious actions of a G-d that is not hidden.
            So, NO we can NOT conclude that Moshe saw G-d in a form of Himself, but he Was able to “see” G-d.
          • David says:

            August 2, 2015 at 3:45 pm

            Correction to my last sentence:

            “But we shouldn’t conclude from that…”
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 2, 2015 at 8:29 pm

            By David’s logic, when i say “i see what you mean” i am seeing a physical thing called “what you mean”. No, it means i understand you. A simple fact is that is that God is not physical, has no parts, etc. If he had to have a face that we can’t see, and a back that we can see, it would mean he has different parts, some visible and some invisible.

            Now, we also have the Agency principle, that is made very clear in Scriptures wich we could summarize by; if you have seen the one sent, you have seen the one who sent him. Even in the NT we can find it: if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, the one who hears you hears me, etc.

            First, the NT clearly tells you that no one has seen God:

            God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare. John 1:18; Young litteral translation

            And no need for gymnastic like “no it means the Father”, the text does not say “Father”, it says God. No one has even seen him.

            Now to prove the agency principle, let’s take the clear exemple:

            And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for, said he, I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved

            Now, Jacob said “i have seen God face to face”.

            But the prophet Hosea gives us a divine commentary on that text:

            He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there– Hosea 12:4

            Principle of agency. So to quote such verses as if it proved your case is really wrong. And Jesus can not be that angel:

            To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? Hebrews 1:13

            But anyway, any spleeting of the essence of God is false and should be dissmised. If one part of God is seen, and another unseen, this is a split. THis can not be defended.
          • David says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:31 pm

            Sharbano,

            You are misrepresenting Scripture when you say that Moses didn’t see God.

            Secondly, we know that God’s glory can and does have a physical manifestation for many reasons which supports the Scriptural fact that Moses saw God. Take for example the fact that the people “physically” saw the glory of God on the face of Moses which he then covered “physically” covered with a veil. Take for example the fact that we are made “physically” in the image of God. The physical can and does represent the Spirit; study it again my friend.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:57 pm

            G-d has No physicality. His glory is Not Him. Is G-d wind or is G-d clouds. He “governs” nature and everything within it. What we see is His manipulation of these elements and it is that which we perceive and “see” as His Presence. This “seeing” is “understanding”. When G-d spoke at Sinai He wasn’t “on the mountain” speaking, but in heaven speaking.
            So, do you think G-d is a gray-haired, bearded old man? This is the “image” people want to imagine. It is Not a physical image that we were created in. The image is a higher level than animals. To put it simply, animals aren’t self-aware and only have instincts. We are made as G-d, being self-aware, having intellect and everything that in on this higher level. The Hebrew word reflects this.
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 2, 2015 at 11:54 am

          Also, the NT proves that Moses couldn’t have seen Jesus:

          God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrew 1:1-1

          God spoke throught many ways, but throught the son only in the last days. So he didn”t speak via the son in Moses time. Case closed.

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 3, 2015 at 1:32 pm

            Hello Ssul

            You are absolutely correct that the Tanach doesn’t teach eating flesh and drinking blood. Of course I never stated it did.

            The same is also of the NT, that also doesn’t teach blood drinking and flesh eating.

            You see the problem here, the contradiction which you think exists here. You think that communion is drinking blood etc. Its not!!!

            The bread and wine are totally symbolic gestures. The two are never taught to be actuall.
            That was never the intended teaching.

            Ive taken communion many times, bread and wine, not flesh and blood. The thought of actual flesh eating is idiotic.

            You give a perfect example of reading something in the NT text that doesnt exist. Thats why non believers get it so wrong. Antisemitism being the actuall topic here. But you do prove and highlight my point.
          • Jim says:

            August 3, 2015 at 1:53 pm

            Paul,

            It is quite laughable that you will accuse non-believers of putting something into the NT that does not exist when it has been brought to your attention that the NT gets Torah wrong in just the same way, and after more than a year, you have yet to answer the claim. What has been proven conclusively is that Christian believers only believe the NT because they are ignorant of Torah and misread it through the distortions of the Church. The NT takes verses out of context, and at times literally alters the text. It is the practice of the Church to put Jesus into a text in which he cannot be found. The Christian approaches Torah entirely exegetically, so how are you going to write about the misunderstandings of those who do not “get” the NT? It could not be any more clear that Christian believers only believe because of the distortions of the NT and Church fathers, “putting something in it that does not exist.”

            It is also laughable that the only time a Christian cares about the Bible being taken out of context is when it is the words of the NT being altered. You never defend the alteration of Torah by those who distort its words. If only you so jealously guarded the words of God as you do the words of the NT.

            Jim
          • Paul summers says:

            August 9, 2015 at 3:18 pm

            Hello Saul

            You are correct that the NT doesnt teach Moses seeing Jesus. Im sure David is making this point.

            The passage which im glad you cited is correct. In times past, in the Tanach, the Son incarnate is never seen. Pre incarnate yes, The Angel is Christ, pre, but not Jesus as the human man, born from a womb which followed.
            The Son is promised to come via scripture, but Jesus the man isnt seen until the birth.

            Since Messiah had to be fully sympathetic to the comforms of the Law and the way of man, the only way God chose and used, was for Himself to become as the ones which He came to serve, as a servant, and finally be there King. Son of Joseph, Son of David.

            When one sees that when the God of Israel loves humanity that much, and hates sin, its not all that difficult through Gods grace, that God sending His Son to die for the sinner isnt impossible, especially when the Tanach points to such.

            Why wouldnt you see that God Himself giving His life is perfect Love, why reject perfect Love??
            Thats your sins Saul, just like mine. A sinner.
30. ChristianPaul says:

    August 3, 2015 at 8:34 am

    Peace to you Saul and Sharbano!

    Saint John Damascene did not use latria for object and that is contrary to the teaching of the Church. He and we venerates holy object like with Torah Scrolls and other holy object. Also the opinion of a Church father does not supersede the opinion of the Church. Like one rabbi can be in error that does not mean that we must follow him.

    The form of God the image of God of Number 12 is the one image of the Eternal Messiah from Genesis 1:26. Adam was made in his Image. His Humanity is in the Mind of the Father in Bereshit. Therefore the Humanity of the Son of Elohai is sanctified and completely deified by the Power Supreme that we may through his resurrected flesh become partaker of his divine nature.

    4 through which these precious to us and greatest promises he has himself been donated, in order that through these you might become partners of divine nature having escaped of the corruption within a world-order in lust. (2 Peter, chap. 1)

    The mysteries of the Church are the mean establish by God to give us his promises and to become sons in the Son to the Glory of YHWH Elohim. The mystery of Redemption, Salvation and Election is proposed to all but not accepted by all for only those chosen by the Father will become what their were predestined to be sons of the Most High. Only through the Orthodox Church can you become what the Father ordained. Orthodoxy is the religion of the sons of God, we are not ordained for this realm but to fill up the seat abandoned by the fallen angels. Therefore those wanting to reign with the Messiah must follow his step for before any exaltation must be humiliations and the Cross. That is why real Christianity, Orthodoxy is not the religion of the easy path but the path of the Cross which is the Door to Election.

    Blessings!

    Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 3, 2015 at 10:43 am

      Hi Christian,

      “Saint John Damascene did not use latria for object and that is contrary to the teaching of the Church. ”

      He said it:

      “So, then, this same truly precious and august tree, on which Christ
      hath offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sakes, is to be worshipped
      as sanctified by contact with His holy body and blood; likewise the
      nails, the spear, the clothes, His sacred tabernacles which are the
      manger, the cave, Golgotha, which bringeth salvation, the tomb
      which giveth life, Sion, the chief stronghold of the churches and the
      like, are to be worshipped.” http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf

      “The form of God the image of God of Number 12 is the one image of the Eternal Messiah from Genesis 1:26. Adam was made in his Image. His Humanity is in the Mind of the Father in Bereshit. Therefore the Humanity of the Son of Elohai is sanctified and completely deified by the Power Supreme that we may through his resurrected flesh become partaker of his divine nature.”

      Deification…The created does not become uncreated. This is nonsense.

      Reply
      • Paul summers says:

        August 3, 2015 at 1:53 pm

        Hello

        Apologies, thats Saul.

        Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 3, 2015 at 2:21 pm

        Hi Saul! Interesting reaction: “Deification…The created does not become uncreated. This is nonsense.”

        The Power of God can transform what was not-noble to something noble. Let us take a material of iron which when plunged in high fire become fire like the fire without losing its essence. To be elevated does not mean that we become uncreated for to be uncreated you must not have a beginning. That is not the issue here. Please do not mix things!

        Deification is the process in which the divine grace transforms a man to become one with the Elohim. The means of deification are the mysteries of the Orthodox Church given by her Lord to become like him.

        That is why those who persecute the Church and do harm to little of the Lord are accused to do harm to the Lord Himself. For it is written:

        44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25)

        Peace and blessings!

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 3, 2015 at 3:52 pm

          Christian God cannot make a lie the truth – how much more so can He not take that which is not worthy of worship and render it worthy of worship. Just as God cannot make Himself into “not-God” so can He not make “not-God” into God

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 3, 2015 at 5:20 pm

            Dear witness of the Torah,

            Deification does not make us God in essence but in participation by Grace. It is like a piece of wood put in a fire where in the beginning the wood become very dark but eventually with time and perseverance become fire-like. The same with the soul: 1) the soul wanting to approach God will see his unworthiness and his many sins and advancing more and more into righteousness and sanctity will become God-like by participation to the divine energy of Grace. The process is a long process where the soul enter into the night of the soul to purify herself by the divine fire. When having been faithful all his life after many trials he will have a soul transformed in divine grace to the Glory of God and for the sake of all his brothers.

            The mission of the Orthodox life Jewish or Christian is to become holy, saints of the Lord to proclaim by our life and deeds the power of the mercy of the Lord Almighty. I hope it for you and for all for your hearts loves the Torah and may the God of Israel always bless you in his divine Presence.

            Thank you for all the good you do for the sons of Israel!
        • Sharbano says:

          August 3, 2015 at 6:52 pm

          Deification is just another of many pagan concepts that infiltrated Xtianity.

          Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      August 3, 2015 at 6:42 pm

      This sounds a Lot like “New Age” rhetoric. What you attempt to attribute to messiah is inherent in all people.
      If it’s all “predestined” THEN no one has real free will and free choice. G-d has already determined the outcome. And where did you come up with this replacing fallen angels theology. Maybe I should just go direct to the source, the Eastern religions.
      The “cross”, in other words “wood and stone”. Read about it and learn.

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 5, 2015 at 7:04 pm

        Sharbano says:
        August 5, 2015 at 5:48 pm

        On the one hand you have (G-d) who says to return to Him and on the other you have a (man) who says “believe in me”. Who do I listen to, G-d, or man. I choose G-d every time. Nowhere in Tanach, where G-d speaks directly, does He say to “believe in a man”, let alone a messiah.

        Peace to you Sharbano! How then you interpret the Torah in Exodus 23:

        20 “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 6, 2015 at 8:17 am

          Your point is incongruous. This angel is not asking to create a new and different path to G-d.

          Reply
31. Paul summers says:

    August 4, 2015 at 9:52 am

    Hello Sharbano

    Im not sure if you are in a position to say that Jesus should have said A,B,C instead of to teach a certain point. We can only go on what is written. Im certainly not in a position to second guess and to speculate either.

    To me the teachings are perfect examples of double standards and hypocrisy.

    Im not sure also where you get the idea that Jesus hated tax collectors??

    Jesus was rebuked for eating with tax collectors! We have just discussed that Jesus used a tax collector has someone who had a repentant heart. Infact it was this verse that you quoted.
    Hardly any hate here?

    The issue that Jesus did have with tax men, was the fact that they creamed off a percentage of the tax and lined their own pockets with it. Being a tax collector was not a popular job among the Jewish community, and tax collectors were taking Jewish money and giving it to there Roman rulers. It was the populace who had the issue.

    So to summarise, Jesus didnt hate the pharisees or tax collectors. He didnt hate no man. What He did hate, was the double standards, self will, and hypocritical life styles of any person, either higher up in the echelons of life, or the mere beggar on the street.

    For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His Only Begotten Son.

    Ps Mathew used to be a………………………?

    Reply
32. Jim says:

    August 4, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    Is it fair that Jesus call his opponents “sons of the devil” and such names? Is he really just correcting (lovingly) those who were in sin? The Christian apologists here would have us believe that the invective Jesus spats at his opponents is perfectly justified, but let us examine the evidence.

    One of the claims that Jesus makes is that the Hebrew scriptures testify to him: “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:39-40). This claim, however, is wholly unsubstantiated.

    It is clear that anybody can make any claim for himself. It is another thing to prove the veracity of the claim. How would Jesus be able to substantiate the claim that the scriptures testify to him? This would be an exceedingly difficult claim, and we cannot be surprised that he never makes an attempt to support it. Instead, he browbeats his opponents, claiming, “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But if you do not believe what he wrote how will you believe what I say?” (John 5:46-47). All Jesus has done here is attempt to humiliate his opponents and borrow the authority of Moses for himself, that and vilify his opponents. As is so often his way, he questions their sincerity.

    But let us examine his claim. Is Jesus found in the scriptures? Did Moses write about Jesus?

    The latter question is the easier to answer. Torah says very little about the Messiah. It is most certainly false that a reading of the Five Books would lead one to the idea that Jesus has propounded, that one should come to the Messiah (or specifically himself) for eternal life. One can see why Jesus did not appeal to one actual scripture. It is not likely he could find one. It is much easier to call people blind for not seeing something than to show it them where it cannot be found. No wonder then that he would rely upon invective rather than instructing the people.

    And what about the scripture in general? Do they testify on Jesus’ behalf?

    It is unclear what Jesus means that they testify on his behalf. Once again, it is important to note that the person of the Messiah is hardly mentioned. He is not the focus of the Writings or the Prophets anymore than he is the focus of Torah. Certainly nothing in them shows that the Messiah brings eternal life. Even if they did, that would not mean that Jesus brings eternal life, because he had not yet proven himself to be the Messiah.

    It can be supposed that Jesus was making reference to the prophecies he was supposed to have fulfilled up to that point. However, if these are the same prophecies used by the Church, then it is no wonder that he referenced none of them. They would carry no weight with a knowledgeable person. And seldom could they be verified.

    What could he say? “I was born of a virgin.” This would be an empty claim, because nobody could know that that was the case. The words would be empty without proof. And anybody with knowledge would know that no such prophecy exists. For anybody who knew Isaiah 7:14, it would be clear that Jesus was a confused person. Isaiah 7:14 is about a woman naming her child “Immanuel”. Jesus’ mother did not so name him. Clearly the prophecy had nothing to do with him.

    Perhaps he could tell them that he was from Bethlehem. This would be useful, inasmuch as they thought he was just from Galilee (John 7:42). But this would not be proof either. Anybody could say they were from Bethlehem; that does not make it so. He had no birth certificate. Even today, some people question the birthplace of the current American president. Just saying you were born somewhere does not make it so. There were no witnesses to question about the event. It would be just another empty claim. (And certainly not everyone born in Bethlehem is the Messiah.)

    Or, he could tell them how God called him out of Egypt. But any knowledgeable person would know that Hosea 11:1 was not about the Messiah. It was about Israel. And the same problem comes up as with the two previous ‘Messianic’ prophecies. Jesus has no witnesses. So, even if the prophecies had been about the Messiah, they would not be able to compare them to Jesus’ life and see how well they matched up.

    Of course, I could go on, but all the supposed prophecies Jesus is said to have fulfilled have been tackled elsewhere. They have been shown not to be Messianic prophecies whatsoever, in most cases. And most anything Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled was a private event that could not serve as verification of his claims.

    In short, Jesus’ claim that his opponents do not believe Moses is spurious. John does not have Jesus bringing any proofs, and it is obvious why. Jesus is not making a legitimate argument, proving his claims. Instead, he attacks their character. He vilifies his opponents, because he is actually asking for blind faith. He is demanding that people take him at his word. He will tolerate no investigation into his claims. So, rather than show how they are wrong, he attributes evil motives to them.

    Jesus is nothing more than a demagogue. He demands belief without evidence. His castigation of them is not an act of love, of kindness. It is hateful and self-serving.

    Jim

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 5, 2015 at 12:10 am

      Jim I hope peace upon you!

      Your case is entering into a clear revolt against the Humble Christ. Your spirit is clearly drinking the poison of the spirit of revolt for having dare to insult the King of kings who came in a humble condition to take away the humiliation of our race to bring us to the exaltation of the sons. You failed your test and if you were to die I would be worry for your soul. I know that it is harsh but can I quiet myself when I see a man in revolt against the king.

      When you have arrived to the point of insulting and decrying the Messiah based on you own spirit instead of the teaching of our Mother than you have taken the path of the enemy of mankind who introduce sin into this world.

      Your knowledge of the Tanakh is clearly perverted by your presumptions. Now if you were a powerful king and a little servant would dare to insult you what would be your reaction toward him be. Mercy for the King might excuse his ignorance! But when reproved and still he continues to insult the King on and on… What will be the reaction then! Surely banishment from the face of the King into the prison to understand the gravity of his insolence.

      Therefore when the servants of the king does not want to be any more a servant but an insolent he must bear the consequences of his choice. And everybody will wonder how foolish was the choice of this little man having lost the grace to serve the beautiful king.

      Jim for you to understand, Christ reaction against his detractors were perfectly normal from the Son-King having taken the condition of a servant. Especially when ingratitude and rebellion met his constant care for our condition by healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, chasing demons, resurrected the dead and finally proving his word by his Resurrection to whom the first was James (Yaakov) the Just who was an unbeliever before the Resurrection. The same James who was known in Pharisaic circle as a Tsadik. More than Saul-Paul, James (Yaakov) the brother of Yeshua, the bishop of Yerusalem was a real witness of Yeshua claims. For the Resurrection of Christ to hundreds of witnesses was the starting point of the mighty Religion that would change the face of this earth producing myriads of saints to the glory of the One God.

      Blessings!

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        August 5, 2015 at 9:10 am

        First of all, a person would have to believe those words to have truth, but they are a witness against itself. Take the account of Stephen, guided by the spirit, who made numerous errors. By this account alone we can dismiss the entire Xtian text. The word of G-d HAS to be an inerrant word otherwise it is NOT the word of G-d. Stephen’s words destroy the entire Xtian text by proof of the True word of G-d, Torah.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          August 10, 2015 at 1:33 pm

          sharbano, can you remind me what arguments you hold against Stephen in Acts 6?

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:06 pm

            Well, I thought about repeating myself but, instead, I challenge You, to do a little study and come back and tell us what you have found.
      • Jim says:

        August 5, 2015 at 3:00 pm

        C. Paul,

        You mistake rhapsody for argument. Your insistence that one should worship a man does not make it so.

        Jim

        Reply
33. Jim says:

    August 5, 2015 at 2:52 pm

    Continuing my comments here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-21567 .

    It is true that Jesus does not just appeal to the supposed testimony of scripture, he also appeals to his miracles. He argues: “But I have a testimony greater than John’s. The works that the Father has given me to complete, the very works that I am doing, testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me” (John 5:36-37). He seems to think that this makes an ‘open and shut case’. As R’ Blumenthal has already shown, this is far from true.

    We know from Deuteronomy that even those who will teach idolatry may be open to perform miracles. Miracles are interesting. They are not without value. But they cannot establish a prophet by themselves, according to Deuteronomy 13.

    For example, let the Christian ask himself if a new prophet were to arise, and he were to perform miracles, curing blindness, deafness, and the like, and then he told somebody that they should worship him as the new incarnation of Jesus, are they likely to follow him? I do not wish to answer for Paul, C. Paul, or Eric, but I suspect they will say that they must not follow him. They should not believe somebody based on such miracles alone. They might even quote Deuteronomy 13 and say that God is just testing them.

    Let us ask another question: if the miracle worker does not preach a new god, but does teach people to spit in the face of their fathers, should we accept this as the Word of God? We are left with a difficulty. After all, he just performed a wonder. On the other hand, we already know that God wishes us to honor our fathers. His words go against the teaching of Torah. Or, what if he treats the Torah cavalierly, perhaps spitting in the face of his own father. Seeing that he is not truly Torah observant, are we to believe his words come from HaShem when he counters the words of HaShem?

    This is the difficulty that the Jewish people face in John 5. Jesus heals a man and then tells him to carry his mat. The problem is that one is not to carry an object on the Sabbath. Notice what happens afterward. ‘The Jews’ see the man carrying his mat and tell him that it is unlawful to carry on the Sabbath. He then tells them that the man who healed him (i.e. Jesus) told him to carry his mat. So there is a conflict between the Word of God and the word of Jesus. Torah prohibits a Jewish person from carrying on the Sabbath. And a separate authority is being set up, Jesus’, based on his healing.

    It is quite reasonable that the Jews question Jesus about this. His teaching counters the efficacy of the sign. It is as if Jesus told this man to spit in the face of his own father. The miracle is not enough to justify such behavior. But it is worse because when ‘the Jews’ question Jesus, he makes clear that he is not bound by Torah. He is above it. He may break the Torah all he wants, because he claims to do it in the name of the Father.

    A similar circumstance happens in John 9, when Jesus makes a salve out of mud and saliva on the Sabbath to perform the healing. Here Jesus goes out of his way to break the Sabbath. As I understand it, though I am no expert in Sabbath law, healing is not prohibited on the Sabbath. Jesus could have healed the man, theoretically anyway, without making the salve. He did this only in order to violate the Sabbath. But doing so indicates that he is not to be trusted. One should not follow blindly those who have cured one of blindness. The blind man says that God does not answer the prayers of a sinner, but he obviously does not know Torah. Deuteronomy 13 already points out that God will allow false prophets, idolaters even, to perform miracles to test the Jewish people. One is to follow Torah, not miracles.

    This being the case, it is wholly reasonable for the Jewish people to question Jesus. He should offer some greater substantiation of his claims, not brow beat his questioners. But of course, he cannot substantiate his claims any more than he has. He has lightly treated the Torah at this point. Performing a miracle does not make it okay to violate the Sabbath unnecessarily. To the contrary, it shows that one should not follow him.

    It also shows that Jesus was not sinless. The Christian creates a new test for sin, one that does not exist in Torah. The Christian says that Jesus can be shown to be sinless because he performed miracles. (Again, see John 9.) This is folly. Balaam was granted prophecy and was quite a wicked man. Miracles really have nothing to do with sin. Sin is when one violates the command of God. If God says “Do x” and one does not do x, he has sinned. And if God says “Do not do x” and one does x, he has sinned. Miracles are irrelevant.

    Let us do a thought experiment. Let us say that before Eve offered the forbidden fruit to Adam, she walked on water. So he says to himself, “Oh, look she must be right. She’s walking on water.” So he eats, is that all right? No, for he still violates the commandment of God. This might seem like a strange experiment, but consider what he tells God, “The woman you gave me, etc.” This could be understood as him saying that, since God gave him this woman, this is a sign that her advice should be followed. But God does not accept this excuse. Adam should have heeded the command of God. Even if Eve walked on water, he should heed the command of God. Walking on water is irrelevant to God’s command.

    Likewise, it does not matter if Jesus healed a blind man. If Jesus teaches others to violate the Sabbath, he should not be followed. If he claims that he is exempt from Torah, he should not be followed. It is quite right for the Jewish people to question his claims. His teachings contradict Torah. His miracles are quite unable to establish his authority.

    This being the case, we can see once again why Jesus excoriates his opponents. He relies on vitriol because he cannot instruct. All he can do is make his opponents appear to be evil. He establishes his authority on unsubstantiated claims followed by vicious diatribes, because he cannot adduce enough evidence to his claims. Therefore, his abusive treatment of those who question him is not loving; it is hateful invective.

    May we all turn our eyes to God and not to a man, a broken reed.

    Jim

    Reply
    • David says:

      August 5, 2015 at 3:07 pm

      Jim,

      You are misrepresenting Deuteronomy. It is more of a statement about the prohibition of idolatry, to not accept anyone even a prophet who leads one into idolatry. Prophesies are only addressed tangentially, to emphasize the fact that not even the fulfillment of a prophesy would not give the Israelite authorization to delve into idolatry which makes perfect sense.

      How can one be a prophet of God if he/she is going after false gods?

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        August 5, 2015 at 3:42 pm

        You are actually affirming Jim’s point. Xtians see Jsus AS a god and therefore Devarim applies. Also, it speaks not Only of idolatry;
        “And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst”

        As we see here it’s not simply idolatry, but leading astray in which Hashem Commanded. Many of the teachings of Xtianity certainly leads one astray from Torah, And as some have said Torah is nullified.

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          August 5, 2015 at 4:10 pm

          Sharbano, “And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God”
          can you answer 2 simple questions?
          -what was a purpose of a prophet to be put to death? To stay dead or not?
          – what falsehood did Jesus speak against God?

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 5:30 pm

            The passage in Devarim shows a concern that the people will be led astray from the commandments instituted by G-d. In speaking in any manner contrary to Torah puts one contrary to G-d Himself. This is Quite obvious when Jsus uses the phrase, Moshe says “this” but (I) say this. He is contradicting Torah and thereby contradicting G-d.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 4:47 pm

            Sharbano, by saying ‘ but I say this.” Jesus was developing the content of the message that was said, the same message. There is no change in it’s meaning , no rejecting what Moses said. Because people had tendency to just superficially holding on to Moses’s commands, there was a need for Jesus say more what the keeping the command really included. Example ; as far as adultery , Jesus said’ but ( I tell) you if in your heart you do it, you already broke the command.
            Read with analyzing why Jesus says things instead of following the same stream of weird arguments that try to look for falsehood in Jesus teaching and have nothing common with the truth.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 6:13 pm

            Jsus contradicts Torah on Divorce. Do you think Jsus spoke anything new regarding adultery. Are you aware that in the IDF religious Jews will not take part in events when women are on stage singing. They’ve had to suffer retribution on account of it. They didn’t come to this from Jsus I guarantee it. There are also those who will not sit next to a woman on a bus. They didn’t get This from Jsus either. Because you know nothing about Jews you have assumptions based Only what is written in YOUR bible. THIS is why you cannot understand any part of the Jewish perspective. You understand one side, from a Gentile perspective, whereas we can see both. You don’t have the benefit of being immersed in a Jewish culture.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 5, 2015 at 11:24 pm

            Eric Let me answer for Sharbano The Torah says that we should put the prophet to death – it is our job to put him to death – what happens afterward is not our business – it is only your speculation. Jesus said that he is the only path to God – that is a falsehood – it is contradicted by Psalm 145:18
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 6, 2015 at 5:06 pm

            ypf , there is a reason God said to put such to death so he will stay dead and not mislead people, be our of their life. God didn’t talk about plan B; and say but some prophets might be able to resurrect themselves so there is plan B. There was no way for a false prophet to go back to life.
            That’s why if you put somebody to death and God shows s the other way by bringing him back to lifeiesHe testify of the prophet ing be true.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 7:52 pm

            Eric This is your own speculation – the death of the prophet is not the “sign” of his being false – it is the instructions to us what to do with him. the sign that he is false is that he leads us away from the God that we already know
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 5, 2015 at 3:39 pm

      Hi Jim! Interesting hermeneutics!

      Let me ask you simple questions that will help us understand:

      1) Do you think that Sabbath is an absolute meaning that it can not be broken for even special circumstance?

      2) If a man has an heart attack on Shabbat do you let him die?

      3) If a kid fall in the basement and call for help can you help your kid by carrying him up the stairs?

      You see clearly that Shabbat is not an absolute but can be transgress in special circumstance. To heal a man is not a sin but a deliverance.We need nurses and doctors working on Shabbat to assure a presence for the sick. Your interpretation of Torah is too legalistic and lack the wind that permits it to navigate properly.

      Now accusing Yeshua the Son of God the author of the Torah of transgressing the Torah is an absurdity. For the author of the Torah knows what is permitted and what is not in all circumstances. Therefore your interpretation is flaw in your premise and your process. To be a true interpreter of the Torah one needs years and years of study. You cannot criticize a master of Torah. Only masters of Torah can argue with each other to come to a better understanding. It is like the pot criticizing the potter. Let us be more humble and not improvise as teachers when we are little children in learning.

      Thank you and blessings!
      .

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        August 5, 2015 at 3:47 pm

        I’ll just say this in regards to your questions. You have literally No understanding of the laws of Shabbat. Yours is from a Xtian understanding that it is a “day of rest”. It comes from an ignorance of Hebrew.

        Reply
        • ChristianPaul says:

          August 5, 2015 at 4:08 pm

          Peace to you Sharbano!

          Your argument is insufficient to understand. That I am an ignorant I will accept for the sake of advancing the issues therefore can you develop your assertions for the benefit of all. Thank you in advance!

          P.S.: to bring someone to the obedience of Torah will be greatly rewarded in the heavens.

          Blessings!

          P.S.; Concerning saint Stephen supposedly errors you are mislead for the author of the Acts of the Apostles was not Stephen but Luke the doctor who was of a Greek speaking person. When he quotes Stephen he surely verified his words in accord to the Septuagint (Greek Version of the Tanakh) who speaks of the number 75. That is not Stephen error if error it is but the Greek transliteration from the Septuagint by Luke.

          Thank you in advance!

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 5, 2015 at 5:26 pm

            To start with I’ll say this. Tractate Shabbos takes up 4 volumes of the Talmud. As such there is much involved with this single day.
            The basics for Shabbat are the 39 Melachot of prohibitions. These follow the categories that accomplished the work performed in the Mishkan. Therefore, accordingly, a person “Could” spend the day moving furniture around and by itself wouldn’t be a prohibition pertaining to “work” on Shabbat. The Melachot is the same as when G-d did His “work” at creation. Therefore the word refers to “creative work”.

            Whether or not it comes from the Septuagint doesn’t deter from the fact the “book” is in error. But these aren’t the only errors. There are at least two or three others. If Luke is writing something from some other source then how can anything in the Xtian text be trusted. It is not the words spoken but from “other sources” that should be a cause of concern.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 5, 2015 at 6:55 pm

            Peace to you dear witness of the Torah!

            On the 39 Melachot one caught my attention:

            36. Mechabeh – Extinguishing (putting out a flame)

            What happens if a fire starts in your house? Can you extinguished it before it grows to big or do you wait for the firemen? And if in Israel with Jewish firemen what happens when a house burns and can cause damages to an entire community do you let the flames burn everything?

            Therefore again is Shabbat an absolute commandment?

            Concerning Luke the doctor, he relates the fact as told by the Church. If a human error slips in the history of the facts rendered that does not render the message valid in term of sacred teaching. Now concerning the 75 from the Septuagint which was approved by the Sanhedrin at that time for the nations as a valid translation in respect of the Torah. What is the problem with this version? Also the 70 in the Masoretic text is I think a symbolic number not the exact mathematical number. Check for yourself in Genesis!

            Thank you in advance for your teaching on the matter!

            Blessings!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 6, 2015 at 8:12 am

            I would only speak in general terms with situations as the laws of Shabbat. One should consult a local Rabbi for specifics. As the Rambam teaches, if a person would search out different Rabbis for leniency it would corrupt Judaism and Torah. So, I’ll say this, Torah says if one keeps the commandments they will have life. Therefore a life is taken into account in Torah observance.

            The Septuagint that was used as reference was Not the Greek translation the Sages worked on. That particular one was lost long before this period of time. If there is this one error then that puts into question all the rest. No one would know the accuracy of any of the text. It is thus NOT the inspired word of G-d, but just another one of man’s writings.
            Where have I heard this before… The count of 70 in Torah IS the count according to Torah. The names are listed of who are in that count and this is where Stephen errs, not only here, but in a most curious other matter. the Cave of Machpelah. How is it even possible that a Jew of that time would NOT know where the Patriarchs and Matriarchs are buried. It “Might” be possible he wouldn’t know about the sprinkling of blood but a burial place of the ancestors should have been known by all. All in all the entire account is suspicious Because of the fact the text Says he was “guided by the holy spirit”. This tells me that spirit was either a liar or else the entire Text is invalid.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:09 pm

            Sharbano,
            It is interesting you will blame Stephen for the errors because as for one to be filled with the Holly spirit he should have not make any errors. The blames like most of arguments against Christians are made due to not considering facts that one of them Paul mentioned. Stephen didn’t even write about himself . Another fact I heard Jews believe- is they already have a spirit – I am sure they mean holy spirit but that didn’t stop the forefathers to go into sin and have life filled with errors which are sidetracks from God’s word.. I wonder whom they will blame in that case? As for people filled with the Spirit they should know what is right and do it, no mistakes allowed. Our scripture is not trustworthy as Stephen filled with the spirit is found with errors, but their people who failed are allowed mistakes “as long as they are faithful”. Then they build upon that..
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:18 pm

            Eric Forget about us for a minute because you obviously have no clue about our beliefs – but what about you? How could you trust a book that is so clearly erroneous?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:57 pm

            yes, this has been always your defense'” I have no clue about your law, writings, etc, ”
            But I have an access to check information and verify it with many sources so you words are not last words on the matter to believe it.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:38 pm

            Eric, do you have a copy of Mishneh Torah, Shulchan Aruch, Mishna Berurah etc.Well I Do. You have done like a lot of Xtians, i.e,. go the the internet and find something that suits your purpose without any background. Xtian have tried the same with Talmud. There is a Reason these things are taught by Rabbis and Not studied on one’s own, as Xtian do, on their own.

            Mishneh Torah Shabbos 8:13
            A person who sifts [an amount of flour the size of] a dried fig is liable.
            A person who kneads [dough the size of] a dried fig is liable. Mixing earth [for use as cement] is a derivative of kneading. What is the minimum amount for which one is liable? The amount necssary to make a crucible for a goldsmith. The activity of mixing cement cannot be performed with ash, course sand, bran, or the like.
            A person who places sesame seed, flax seeds, or the like in water is liable for kneading, because they become attached to each other.
            Notes.
            > The Rambam does not mention derivatives for this category of forbidden labor, because, as mentioned in Halachah 11, sifting resembles the categories of separating and winnowing, and it is not clear which of these categories of forbidden labor the derivatives of these activities fall under.
            > The forbidden labor of kneading involves adding water to a collection of granular substances, e.g. flour or cement – and mixing them until they cling together as a single mass. Since the substances mentioned in this clause of this halachah do not adhere to each other, one can never be held liable for performing this forbidden labor with them.

            I don’t feel like typing all the rest.
            So, Eric, WHERE are YOU getting YOUR information, wiki?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:47 pm

            , Sharbano and which ones were added later to the law written by Moshe?? jews have many of those added books .
            Show me in tanakh Moshe’s command that you can’t spit on the ground. ( but you can on the wall or trees, this is what some Jews believe)
            And I would still be interested in your answer regarding why blood on the altar, ( not ayax, baking soda, etc)
          • Sharbano says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:05 pm

            What are you talking about? The Prophets, the Writings?
            You quoted Mishneh Torah as your reference. Where do you find that in there. Is this something you found online.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:03 pm

            ypf, prayer is the answer , if you really what to know if jesus was true and his words were truth, keep praying with open heart, put aside your resentment , hate feelings caused by pseudo-Christians, God will answer . Ask God to give you an answer to be as obvious as possible so that you won’t have doubts. Errors are not made concerning jesus mission but but based on changing language , vocabulary, history and translations , and they still can’t cover the main message.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:00 pm

            Eric I pray for God’s truth all the time – and I have no doubts about Christianity. Keep on praying Eric – but also keep your ears open so that you hear when God answers your prayer – in fact He did so very clearly in His holy Scriptures – you won’t have a doubt that your prayer was answered
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:43 pm

            ypf, I am trying to find your article relating to messianic references to isaiah 53, You said it was under” what did the rabbis say?” Is it wwww. chaim.org/rabbis.htm??
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:02 pm

            Eric It is on this blog – under the title “Contra Brown” – in that work there is a section on Isaiah 53 and in that section the first part is entitled “What Did the Rabbis Say”
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:48 pm

            ypf, can you send a link to that?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:58 pm

            Eric I do not have access to that now – I hope to get to it tomorrow
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 1:24 pm

            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/contra-brown/
          • Sharbano says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:00 pm

            You are digging yourself an even bigger hole. It’s even worse then because the text declares Stephen if full of wisdom and the holy spirit. And, being a Jew, he shouldn’t have mistaken any of these incidents. What we have is the case the word is NOT an “inspired” word of G-d, at least the writer wasn’t. It is rather strange that there were No writings until a generation After the death of Jsus. A person would have thought that, given the supposed importance of such a man, Many would have written down his words at That time. Apparently no one did. So Xtianity has to rely on people who probably weren’t even there.

            Do you REALLY think that those who were evil in Israel has any comparison to whether or not a text is valid??? It’s not even apples and oranges. There is one case in Torah that speaks of one being full of wisdom and the spirit, and this would be a valid comparison, Betzalel.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:13 pm

            Sharbano, Paul already explained you what are the errors based on. You didn’t get it. Stephen was not writing his own message.
            Also you expect a person filled with wisdom knows everything as their brain is guarded as if a spirit was giving every word . He listens to carefully that he knows every detail.
            So why salomon couldn’t ???So much wisdom he had and knowledge yet he lost that voice of the spirit speaking in him and he turned back to what God didn’t approve of.
            I am not justifying Stephen as this is not his case but just giving examples that even people with wisdom and spirit make mistakes.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:58 pm

            Then maybe Stephen wasn’t so great after all, that is if he made mistakes. It wasn’t unheard of for Rabbis to have the entire Torah memorized, even including Talmud. But say then Stephen Was accurate in all he said. We’re still left with the same dilemma, that being, the text is unreliable. If THIS point is in error, and we have proof from Torah, than how much more can be in error that we cannot corroborate. And do you think I will jeopardize My soul on the basis of a book that is questionable. I can tell you one thing, if you ask any Jew why they follow G-d and Torah etc., one answer will always come forth, because G-d spoke at Sinai. God didn’t say to Moshe, hey Moshe, my son is with me.
            G-d had already laid down his plan for Israel. Time and again, in Torah, in the Prophets, in the Writings, it is ALWAYS the same, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. You quote Is 53; I quote Is 52 and in that G-d says it is HE that redeems. If He wanted me to believe in a Jsus He would have said there, My messiah will bring redemption. But a messiah is nowhere mentioned. Since he isn’t mentioned he is not on my mind.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 2:44 pm

            Sharbano, “It wasn’t unheard of for Rabbis to have the entire Torah memorized, even including Talmud. ”
            If he memorized it he would have to quote the whole book hours story.
            But can you just point out to those errors you talked about ? I tried to figure what is such a problem, besides what Paul already explained to you.

            I do not see how somebody can think that he jeopardizes his soul believing that God could use a righteous man for us. Besides Jesus didn’t tell people to give up the law and now have a ‘ lets’ do whatever- party”. The first Jewish Christians were hard to tell apart from other Jews non-Christians as they all kept the law.

            G-d spoke at Sinai but even at Sinai He didn’t tell people the whole history of the world ahead. He didn’t say there will be Esther through whom He will use to save His people, there will be the Messiah coming in the future, etc.
            God always said it is He that redeems , even in Egypt yet He still used people. He could have excused Moses and walk Himself, yet He used people all through the history. At the redemption time He will use His messiah( Is 11) , although His power should be sufficient without any person.
            God didn’t say ” My messiah” even addressing the Messiah in chapter 42, not even in Chapter 11 but addressing his ‘my servant in whom I am pleased”. Just as his servant like the rest of his people . you said “But a messiah is nowhere mentioned” But the righteous servant is mentioned that is to justify others by carrying their iniquities. blessing the world and justifying others are two different things.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:01 pm

            No comparison, Eric, because these tools were never seen as the way to God. The idea that Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6) is a new way of worshiping God that was not taught at Sinai, not taught throughout the Torah, and contradicts Psalm 145:18 (as Rabbi B. has pointed out to you several times and to which you have yet to respond). Therefore, it is idolatrous.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 9:40 pm

            Dina, as far as Jesus as the only way to God; there have never been straight access to holy of hollies, to the presence of God. Ask yourself a question , why couldn’t you enter even after repenting? There is a difference between praying to God and coming into His presence. One you do anywhere without anybody, the other you have a mediator.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:31 pm

            Eric:

            “Dina, as far as Jesus as the only way to God; there have never been straight access to holy of hollies, to the presence of God. Ask yourself a question , why couldn’t you enter even after repenting? There is a difference between praying to God and coming into His presence. One you do anywhere without anybody, the other you have a mediator.”

            You totally didn’t respond to my comment. Please read it again.

            People had access to God before the Holy of Holy was built. They had access to God in between the First and Second Temple periods. During the Second Temple period when the majority of Jews were scattered throughout the Diaspora and they couldn’t make it to the Holy Land, they still had access to God. They worshiped God as they have always worshiped Him: according to the lessons learned at Sinai that were passed from father to son and recorded in our Scripture, not from gentiles like Eric who sneer at their blindness.

            David sinned and was forgiven without Jesus. So did Moses. So even did Solomon. What worked for them will surely work for me.

            Deuteronomy 4, 13, and 30; Ezekiel 18 and 33; Psalm 145:18
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 8:20 am

            And What do you call “His Presence”, Eric.
            Aren’t you aware He is everywhere, at all times, and at no times. We perceive His Presence when it is We, who are aware that He is the Cause of all causes. This can be from the most insignificant thing to the event at Sinai. A leaf doesn’t fall without G-d willing it. But if we are so consumed by physical thought we will never see His will, His Presence. The highest level of this understanding and realization is “prophecy”.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:44 pm

            You always seem to answer with non-sequitur.
            Stephen erred about when G-d spoke to Abraham;
            Stephen erred about the number who went to Egypt;
            Stephen erred where Jacob was buried;
            Stephen erred in whom the tomb was purchased from;
            Stephen erred in who the prophet speaks of star god;
            G-d will use agents to accomplish a goal but that’s a FAR cry from a man’s blood taking away sin. There is NO comparison whatsoever.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 6:43 pm

            sharbano, I skip your assess about me.
            Just points;
            Jacob was buried “in the cave of the field of Machpelah.” Acts 7:15-16 does not say where Jacob was buried, just that he died and was later carried into Sychem. Furthermore, Machpelah is the name of a field, not a city.
            about jacob’s family entering Egypt;
            Since Jacob’s sons wife’s are not counted, but there were 9 of them , if you add them all to those 66 counted you have 75 people (Judah’s and Simeon’s wives were dead) .
            If you had 66 people mentioned in genesis without the jacob”s sons’ wifes, to complete nr 70 you would only include 4 wifes.
            So both 70 and 75 count are based on using differing means of numbering Jacob’s family. The Septuagint text excludes Jacob and Joseph and adds nine of Joseph’s sons to make a total of seventy-five. In the Masoretic (Hebrew) Bible the tally of sixty-six persons are then supplemented with Jacob, Joseph, and Joseph’s two sons for a final total of seventy people.
            About others; based on translation the names of places are changes. One tells you about the exact place , the other the region or whole territory.

            I am still waiting for your answer to ;purpose of blood on the altar. I do not have to tie it to any conversation here, I am curious of your opinion.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 7:23 pm

            It does Tie the two together. “He was carried to Shechem AND laid in the sepulcher”. Furthermore, the Cave of Machpelah is in Chevron.

            The Torah lists 70 seventy. By any other count is would be More than 75. There are reasons that the number 70 is used. Jacob and the 70, chosen out of 70 nations, The 70 elders, 70 members of the Sanhedrin, the 70 languages, 70 bulls of Sukkot etc.
            What IS known is the Septuagint erred in Its rendition, but you want to suggest that the Septuagint wasn’t actually translating but interpreting and calculating. That’s some charge. That makes it Not a translation and even less reliable.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 8:40 pm

            Sharbano, that leaves jacob’s family only with 4 wives. that went together( each one must have had 10 or more kids) so 5 other wives stayed back? 66 jacob’s son’s wives are not included in number 66. in that counting in genesis.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 9:00 pm

            Instead of trying to “figure it out” just read what it says. The answer is as plain as the nose on your face. It’s not too difficult, it’s not in heaven. You DO have to read each and every word. There is Nothing superfluous in Torah.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 9:04 pm

            I’ll give you a hint. This is Not only recorded in Genesis.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 10:37 pm

            sharbano, It is still not excluded that Stephen is appealing to the Septuagint of the Old Testament. He provides no context of how he was counting his forefathers who went into Egypt. Also the number of O.T. passages quoted in the New T appear to follow the phraseology of the Septuagint- the popular translation was in widespread use throughout the Roman world.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 8:32 am

            If Stephen is appealing to the Septuagint his surely is not So filled with the spirit. He is then relying on his Own understanding, And on a book that in itself isn’t free of mistakes. It IS true that much of the Xtian text is a direct reflection of the Greek. The Greek was primarily used by Hellenists in Egypt. Philo attests that in his circles it was used, but not so in Israel and other areas.
            So, we still have the same issues. Stephen, full of wisdom and spirit, wasn’t as wise in Torah as the text imagines, or, the spirit is lacking, at least in Hebrew Torah. Is the spirit only knowledgeable in Greek and not Hebrew. And This is only One of those mistakes.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 14, 2015 at 12:55 pm

            sharbano, “The Greek was primarily used by Hellenists in Egypt. Philo attests that in his circles it was used, but not so in Israel and other areas.?” How long did you’ have’ Israel and your area available with Romans after Jesus and his believers came on the scene???
            when were the people scattered out of Jerusalem? and what language remained there mostly? What language were the most writings in? Greek!
            So do not make your crazy assumptions
            ,”, the spirit is lacking, at least in Hebrew Torah. Is the spirit only knowledgeable in Greek and not Hebrew. “
          • Sharbano says:

            August 14, 2015 at 4:38 pm

            At that time Jews were traveling between Babylon and Israel. I can guarantee you they weren’t speaking and writing in Greek.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 14, 2015 at 7:18 pm

            Sharbano, Latin and Greek were popular, and NT was written in Greek and Aramaic. Why do you have Septuagint which is translation of the Hebrew Bible and some related texts into Koine Greek from the Latin? And this translation is quoted a number of times in the New Testament. If the Greek translation was needed , it suggests a wide spectrum of people using that language at that time, and for others to be understood, not just among Jews. who would used Hebrew.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 16, 2015 at 9:31 am

            You’re mixing the Jews of Alexandria, as in Philo et.al., with those in Israel. They even had their own temple in Alexandria. Josephus even mentions how few in Israel spoke Greek and their primary language being Aramaic.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 20, 2015 at 10:53 pm

            Sharbano, there is a purpose why the scriptures were translated into Greek at that specific time period.. They were done on request so that the non Hebrew society had access to read the scriptures as well. the copy was also prepared especially for the library in Alexandria. The question is; why such a need for the scriptures which were unknown in a Greek world? Jews would be happy with their Hebrew translation but non- Hebrew society that was coming to God needed to read in their language.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 8:44 pm

            Sharbano, do you believe that our of 11 brothers of joseph only 4 had a wife? Or just 4 wives were allowed to Egypt?
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:31 pm

            Hi Eric,

            You are confused about the issue. When a Jew takes issues with Stephen it’s because your Scriptures call Jews blind because they do not have the Holy Spirit. So then, they turn to Stephen wich shows that Stephen was filled with the Spirit but yet totally ignorant of Scriptures. What is worst, is that in Acts 7, he is not only wrong, he is on a long attack aganst the Sanhedrin. He comes in to slander the Sanhedrin but does so with falsehood and mistakes. Also, the Holy Spirit has a totaly different meaning for Jews and for Christians. As such, the 2 can not be compared without contextual analysis. Jews do not say to Christians, “you don’t understand the Tanakh because you lack the magical Holy Spirit”, or “i can’t refute you but i’ll use the Holy Spirit card to explain why you are wrong”. Totally different things.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:11 pm

            Very elucidate.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 1:46 pm

            Saul, I see your problem , YOU are confused more then you can imagine.
            You are adding lots of stuff.
            “When a Jew takes issues with Stephen it’s because your Scriptures call Jews blind because they do not have the Holy Spirit.

            You are REALLY confused!! Are you realizing that when Stephen spoke to the jews no NT scriptures were written yet for him to read about blindness, and besides where??? So where do we read that he approaches them in the way’ lacking the spirit” If he is addressing the rebellion of the people, it has to be addressed. So why are you adding your speculation to that ” it’s because. our scriptures……not because what Stephen says things that were written about him way later then his conversation with the Jews . So why to add nonsense?
            Another thing, when we read about jews ” while with issue with Stephen” they do not address him through the words; that they feel accused of being blind as they have no Holt Spirit. No discussion like that takes place, no words like that are being addressed.
            Just amazement expressed over Stephen about his wisdom and spirit and their anger .

            “He is on a long attack against the Sanhedrin.” Really??? Which verse? Telling them the truth about them? I know how could he..
            Also as far as “Jews do not say to Christians, “you don’t understand the Tanakh because you lack the magical Holy Spirit”,” Actually I heard the opposite, only without the word ” magical”.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 1:50 pm

            saul, I forgot to add; there is a difference between being accused of having NO spirit and opposing the Spirit..
            v,53 tells you they are not accused of not having a spirit ( but opposing it) , as you addressed in your first line.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 9:30 pm

            saul.there were yours words not mine , so I am supposed to to guess how differently you meant them;”When a Jew takes issues with Stephen it’s because your SCRIPTURES call Jews blind because they do not have the Holy Spirit. ”
            So based on your last response Stephen might have heard ‘ jews are blind” “orally passed on way? But does he address that they DO NOT HAVE a spirit or tells them you are blind? No, such thing. I call something nonsense when it simply does not make sense to accuse somebody of what is not there.
            All all the errors if you study deeper you see they get clear after knowing the ways of interpretation and translation in relation to those times.
          • David says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:26 pm

            Saul Goodman,

            “Jews do not say to Christians, “you don’t understand the Tanakh because you lack the magical Holy Spirit”, or “i can’t refute you but i’ll use the Holy Spirit card to explain why you are wrong”.”

            Right you are. What I’ve detected is that many Jews on this blog have the arrogant attitude that being a Jew gives one a unique insight into the countless failings of Christianity, incomprehensible for the inferior intellect of the mere mortal non-Jew Christian who has only the imaginary friend of the Holy Spirit to guide him. Doesn’t one know that the mere fact of being a Jewish is self evident proof of a superior biblical understanding, piety and Godliness especially when compared to the “idol worshiping pagan”, excuse me, Christian?

            But what you fail to realize is that it is your own arrogance that has hardened your heart and has blinded you, not the fact of your non-believing Jewishness.

            How do I know this?

            Well, take for example, if I said the following, would you call it arrogant of me?

            I am a Christian and I speak as a Christian. My religious background gives me a unique perspective of Judaism. I look at Judaism from the vantage point of a belief system that Judaism cannot disavow.

            Or how about this; do you still think it expresses the air of arrogance, or perhaps not now since it was said by a Jew?

            “I am a Jew and I speak as a Jew. My religious background gives me a unique perspective of Christianity. I look at Christianity from the vantage point of a belief system that Christianity cannot disavow.”

            And Oh, lastly, Jews don’t use the “Holy Spirit card”, they don’t need to. They have one of their own, the “Jew card”, I’m better than you.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:57 pm

            David This has nothing to do with arrogance – these are simple facts – The Jewish people are the inheritors of Scripture and Judaism CAN and DOES disavow Christianity while Christianity CANNOT disavow Judaism
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:35 pm

            David, you sound very childish. The jews were given the oracles of God. Jesus ordered you to obey the Pharisees. So it is your own scriptures that testify to the unique voice of the Jewish people. Now you look jealous. In the Bible, we are not told to go to the Christians for understanding. We are told to go to the Jews. You do not like it, i understand your pain, but it is the truth.
          • LB says:

            August 11, 2015 at 7:23 pm

            David
            Sometimes you surprise me and sometimes you shock me. Now you are playing the Jew card?.. You should follow YP’s. lead. I’m not saying agree, although I believe you should, but at least in your demeanor.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:11 pm

            Hi Rabbi peace to you!

            You said: “David This has nothing to do with arrogance – these are simple facts – The Jewish people are the inheritors of Scripture and Judaism CAN and DOES disavow Christianity while Christianity CANNOT disavow Judaism”

            1)Christianity is the inheritors of Scriptures and Orthodox Christianity is the inheritors of the Judaism of the Second Temple era
            2)Your Judaism is post-Temple not what Ezekiel wrote chap.40-47
            3)Yes Christianity has disavow your kind of Judaism just read the fathers of the Church and see how they have disavow you
            4)God Himself disavow you and now to show the world he will only save you when you will cry to Him to save you from the enemies that will come against you; and you will not see Him still you say: Bless is He who come in the Name of YHWH
            5)God opposes the prideful and elevates the humble

            Conclusion it is time for rabbinic Judaism to follow the Torah and not their belief and prejudice against others. We are all brothers and a big brother does not say I am the best but always protect his little brothers. Apply Torah in the spirit of Torah not with men made understanding. Also you did not respond to my previous question which was: what is the difference of Karaite Jews and Rabbinic Jews?

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:53 pm

            Christian Your point #1 contradicts Deuteronomy 33:4 Your point #2 is contradicted by facts that I spelled out in my article – if you have a refutation – share it with us – if you don’t share it with us that means you have nothing to say but repeat your old canards You should be embarrassed of what the Church fathers wrote By the way – if you spell out the name of the recent commenter – E.L. – then the computer will block you
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 4:00 pm

            Yes, I think my recent comment about E.L. just got blocked.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:16 pm

            Mere assertions, not an argument.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 12, 2015 at 7:12 pm

            @Eric,

            “Are you realizing that when Stephen spoke to the jews no NT scriptures were written yet for him to read about blindness, and besides where??? ”

            Are you realizing that there was an oral teaching and so he could have got it from Oral teachng? Did it ever come to your mind?

            ” So why to add nonsense?”

            Everything you wrote above that sentence is nonsense itself. I can’t even understand your point. You think that simply calling it nonsense proves you are right?

            “Another thing, when we read about jews ” while with issue with Stephen” they do not address him through the words; that they feel accused of being blind as they have no Holt Spirit. No discussion like that takes place, no words like that are being addressed.
            Just amazement expressed over Stephen about his wisdom and spirit and their anger .”

            So the Holy Spirit and Wisdom make so many mistakes? But Jews really lack the Holy Spirit? Do you realise the nonsense of your argument?

            “Really??? Which verse? Telling them the truth about them? I know how could he..”

            Wich truth? He made incredible mistakes. All of Acts 7 is a slander against the Sanhedrin. Stephen offers no argument at all, makes mistakes etc. Try to deal with it, your rent does not impress anybody here.
      • Jim says:

        August 6, 2015 at 10:34 am

        C. Paul,

        Some people use the word humility like a weapon. They urge it upon others constantly, and pretend it is for the well-being of the others. They say things like, “Let us be more humble…” implying that they too need to be humble, but they do not follow their own advice. They make a pretense of humility, to make others appear arrogant. What they do not know is that no one is fooled by the man who constantly announces how humble he is trying to be. The humble do not draw attention to their humility. They do not swing the word “humility” like a club, hoping to humiliate their opponents.

        It is quite clever of you to call my interpretation too legalistic. But, such a claim is wholly without merit. Your claim rests on creating a false dichotomy. Still I can hardly blame you, since Jesus made the same error in Matthew 12.

        You ask whether or not the “Sabbath is an absolute meaning,” and then you bring two examples of when one should break the Sabbath. The first is that one should save the life of a man having a heart attack. The other is about carrying a child that fell down some stairs. In a later post, you bring a case of extinguishing a burning house. All of these are examples of an emergency of some sort. And they have nothing at all to do with what I wrote.

        If you had read carefully, you would notice first that I did not say Jesus broke the Sabbath by healing on the Sabbath. I quote: “As I understand it, though I am no expert in Sabbath law, healing is not prohibited on the Sabbath.” It was not the healing of the blind man that was the problem. It was the making of the salve.

        Now, when Jesus makes the salve, this is a wholly unnecessary action. Jesus has healed blind people without such a salve in the past. If he is divine, surely he does not need a salve. In fact, the medicinal qualities of the salve are quite dubious, inasmuch as it was made of spit and mud. This extraneous action is a violation of the Sabbath, done only for the sake of violating the Sabbath.

        It is a grave act of rebellion against God. The Sabbath is a testimony to the fact that God created the world. For Jesus to break it without cause is a slap in the face of God. And it is not an emergency act. It cannot be, because it is not necessary for the healing. Therefore, your appeal to emergency situations does not apply. Your attempt to make me look petty rests upon a faulty premise. Making mud has nothing to do with an emergency.

        Either did carrying the mat four chapters earlier, by the way. Notice in that situation, I did not criticize the healing but telling the man to carry the mat. That also is not any part of an emergency. Once again your argument rests on nothing.

        But, as I said, this is understandable. Jesus made the same obvious error. In Matthew 12, when his disciples were hungry, they broke the Sabbath, apparently by threshing. When questioned about this, Jesus makes an absurd comparison to David taking the showbread. But David was in an emergency situation. Jesus’ followers were not. They could not be far from wherever they were staying, inasmuch as it was the Sabbath. The could not have been on a long journey and having run out of provisions, now starving. Jesus’ argument is baseless. His situation is nothing like that of David. And of course, Jesus uses the opportunity to make his opponents look petty.

        Some when they discover their argument has no substance, find is a useful tool to belittle their opponents, calling them legalistic and such. They like to pretend to an authority they do not have. They call their opponents haughty, while claiming themselves to be humble. They humiliate others, and pretend it is for the good of the other. Jesus is one of these. He humiliates his opponents, publicly decrying their faults, or what he claims their faults are. Why does he do this? For their good? No, but because he does not have an argument of any substance.

        Let us imagine for a moment that Jesus was divine. Let us imagine that he was the Lord of the Sabbath. Then, we would expect that his disciples would keep the Sabbath that much more carefully to honor him. They would not be so neglectful in the presence of the king. If they did not have enough food at their lodgings, then he would have made some for him the day before Sabbath, just as God did for Israel in the wilderness. He would not leave them desperate for something to eat so that they were more likely to break the Sabbath. It is clear that Jesus is not divine. He is not the Lord of the Sabbath.

        And it is the greatest cheat for you to make him out to be. You attempt to end-run the discussion by assuming Jesus’ rectitude without showing it. And then make questioning Jesus an act of hubris. This tactic of yours is the greatest foolishness. You insist the Jesus is sinless, but then make it impossible to test him to see if that is true.

        You might as well argue that Jesus should be allowed to have sex with any woman he wanted and it not be labeled adultery. After all, you could say, Jesus was divine and all people belong to him. So, he has a right to have relations with whomever he wanted. Or killed whomever he wanted. Or taken whatever he wanted. It all belongs to him anyway.

        The absurdity is not questioning the actions of Jesus. We must be able to test him if we are to believe on him. The absurdity is making any such test null and void by assuming a priori that whatever he did or said was right. Assuming his rectitude before proving it is folly. Christians like to claim that the Jewish people are blind, but I can imagine no greater blindness than to ignore evidence because it does not yield the desired verdict.

        In summation, your objection is empty. You have crafted a straw man and cleverly blown him down. But my argument stands, because it bears nothing in common with your straw man. Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath due to an emergency. So, though for health reasons, one should perform otherwise forbidden acts, that bears nothing upon this discussion. Jesus was flagrantly and needlessly breaking the Sabbath. He is certainly not the Lord of the Sabbath. And those who questioned him were well within their rights. His vicious attacks upon their character remain wholly unjustified and were not acts of love but self-aggrandizement.

        Jim

        Reply
        • eric krakofsky says:

          August 6, 2015 at 4:29 pm

          Jim “It was not the healing of the blind man that was the problem. It was the making of the salve.
          Now, when Jesus makes the salve, this is a wholly unnecessary action.”

          My goodness, this is the most insane accusation against Jesus have ever heard!! You are beating everybody in the nonsense you can create in your arguments., Indeed! First you address the ‘work itself done’ which most of the ‘work’ was just Jesus words’ be healed” concerning the healing on the Sabbath day. Then this is a problem as it is done on Sabbath but no, it is not,, the salve is !!! He simply didn’t need the salve.wow! What if he wanted to show something by this? What is easier to do ; to just say the words ‘ be healed’ or make a ‘salve’ and heal a person with it – a blind one from birth? Jesus healing power was from God , not a magic tricks. If you have some issues, tell God. Jesus is not physically around anymore. Why are you complaining about him so much, complain to God that you wasted some years of your life believing in him. You do not differ much from those whom Jesus faced in his times. Let’s not rejoice a person was healed, but ridicule Jesus because he used a salve, he spoke a healing words on a wrong day, etc. Shake your hands with them.
          I makes my stomach get upside down reading your stories.

          Reply
          • Jim says:

            August 6, 2015 at 10:46 pm

            Erik,

            Well, I certainly did not mean to make you lose your lunch. I can see that you do not grasp the significance of the salve. Allow me to clarify.

            But allow me to preface my comments by saying that I have no interest in Jesus. I would prefer not to devote any time to the question of him at all. I do not find him to have any significance. But of course, Christians press him upon others, all in the name of love. And I mentioned to you previosly that they do not do it honestly. For example you have the deceptive sites, like the one I mentioned to you jewsforjudaism2000. Such dishonest tactics need to be answered.

            And the Christian Bible is full of such dishonesty. If you read my first comment regarding Jesus’ appeal to the scriptures (that he can be found in them), you know that I mentioned how the NT abuses scripture. The Book of Matthew misrepresents Isaiah 7:14 right off the bat. Isaiah 7:14 talks about a woman who will name her child “Immanuel”. Matthew misrepresents Isaiah. The gospel changes the wording so that the reader is led to believe that it is about Jesus. It clearly is not, however, since Mary named Jesus, “Jesus”. The Church is misleading people through these tactics.

            Now if the Church wants to worship Jesus that is their business. I do not go to Christians’ houses to bring them back to God. I do not visit Christian websites to argue with them. That is their business. They do come to me, however, and try to convert me to Christianity. And they come to the Jewish people and try to convert them. And I think it is important to counter the deception of the Church with the truth.

            In fact, two things bother me about the misrepresentations of the Church. First, they lead people astray. They lead them into idolatry. Second, they distort the holy words of God. Every word we have from God is precious. I cannot believe how disrespectfully the Church handles the holy words of the Most High. I do not like to see a human being’s words misrepresented. How much more do I hate to see the words of HaShem, my Creator and King, misrepresented. If only Christians cared about the words of God. It saddens me that they do not. They allow Matthew, Paul, the author of Hebrews, Church fathers, you name it, take the words of God out-of-context and apply their own meaning to it, and they complain not one whit. I can hardly believe it. And it angers me how freely they abuse His words. The love you feel for a man, I feel for his Creator, and I am deeply troubled by the misuse of His Torah.

            All that being said:

            We need to be able to investigate the claims of the NT and the claims of Jesus. You and others forbid any actual examination. You assert without any evidence that Jesus was sinless and a sacrifice, Messiah, some of you that he was divine and some not. The context of my comments regarding Jesus was in the context of his attack on his opponents. Jesus did not tolerate any honest investigation into his claims.

            Yet, there are obvious questions to be asked. Now, if you read my comments, I did not say that the healing was wrong. As far as I know, though this is not my area, miraculous healings are not prohibited on the Sabbath. I have now said this for the first time. You misrepresent my words when you put scare quotes around ‘work itself done’ a phrase I did not use. You further misrepresent them when you imply that I altered my argument from addressing the healing of the blind man to the salve. It was always the salve I addressed.

            Now it is obvious from your comments that you do not see why the salve should matter. (Get it?) But focus for just a moment. The salve is entirely useless. It does nothing.

            (You ask rhetorically whether or not it occurred to me that Jesus might be teaching a lesson. Indeed it did. But he teaches no valuable lesson with the salve. And you do not even propose one. Still, if I remember, I will give it in a little bit. But you’re not likely to like it.)

            I should not quite say that the salve does nothing. It serves one purpose, to violate the Torah. Jesus adds an unnecessary step to break the Sabbath. It may appear to be a small act. After all, it is just a little bit of spit and dirt mixed together. Surely this is insignificant. (Do you think Jesus’ acts were insignificant?) This act is not insignificant, however. It is an open act of rebellion. With this small act, Jesus declares himself to be above the Command of God. He has not merely spit into some dirt. He spits upon the Torah.

            Now to one who follows miracles, this will seem like nothing. But to one who follows God, it is everything. This small act has huge implications. One lesson that we can take from this, of course, is that one has a choice. He can remain steadfast in his loyalty to his Creator, or he can follow after those who perform wonders. We come back to Deuteronomy 13, which until now, you have steadfastly ignored. You have attempted to make miracles the trump card of the prophet. Torah teaches differently.

            Of course, I do not mean to say that this is the lesson that Jesus is attempting to teach. The Jesus of John wants to denigrate the Torah and those that follow it. So, he will call them evil for even questioning him. He will demand blind acceptance. He will attempt to make them look petty by performing what appear to the ignorant reader to be minor infractions, not really infractions at all. Those who question him will appear petty.

            This is a gross unfairness, by the Church, by the way. The Church says that God cannot look on sin, not even a minor one. Even a small infraction, a tiny white lie, for example, separates one from God. Yet point out that the gospels record several sins by Jesus, and suddenly those do not count. God does not care about those sins.

            Consider this: Eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a violation of God’s Law. But what kind of violation is this really? This is not like murder or theft or adultery. One could ask, why should it matter if they eat from this tree? But it did.

            Eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was an act of rebellion, an act of pride. Eating fruit is not morally bad, in and of itself. But eating a fruit that God forbade. That is quite serious. It is another matter entirely.

            So with the salve. Making a salve is not a bad thing, in and of itself. Make all the salves you want. However, for the Jew, it is forbidden to make on on the Sabbath. Jesus was a Jew. He violated the Sabbath. This act was no less rebellious than that of Adam and Eve.

            Now you may call this insanity. Your stomach may flip. I can understand that. It is difficult to have someone criticize someone you love. But then, imagine what it is like for me to watch the NT authors misrepresent the words of my God. I too am sickened.

            Jim
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 7:35 pm

            Jim, I do not have interest in what you wrote to waste my time, just answer yourself a question is it allowed to spit on the ground on the Sabbath?
          • Jim says:

            August 6, 2015 at 10:50 pm

            Correction:

            “I have now said this for the first time” meant to be “third”.

            Jim
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 7:38 pm

            Jim, is it allowed to pick a piece of dirt on the sabbath? Just a small handful and put it on wherever you want to? PS. Jesus didn’t even call what he made a ‘salve’ keep making more stories.
          • Jim says:

            August 9, 2015 at 10:30 pm

            Eric,

            The essence of the prohibition is not in the name. I did not say Jesus called it a salve, by the way. I called it a salve by way of description. If you wish just to call it mud, call it that. Whatever you call it, as I understand it, it is forbidden on the Sabbath to make a mixture.

            Perhaps you could clarify what parts of my writing waste your time and what parts do not, so that I can better restrict myself. So far, your inattentiveness leads me to believe I have shortened my answers too much.

            Jim
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 10:59 pm

            Jim, When it comes to such “activity” of combining of solid and liquid together to make a paste or dough-like substance we have to choose among the following;
            Blilah Aveh (a thick, dense mixture)
            Blilah Racha (a thinner, pourable mixture)
            Davar Nozel (a pourable liquid with a similar viscosity to water)
            Chatichot Gedolot (large pieces mixed with a liquid)

            Only a Blilah Aveh is biblically forbidden to be made on the Sabbath unless new changes were introduced recently. Davar Nozel and Chatichot Gedolot are not really considered mixtures, even after adding the liquid to the solid, they are PERMITTED to be made on the sabbath without any shinui (unusual mode) of production.

            You should have started with that to see where you can categorize what jesus did’ when
            “he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle” John 9;6. whether it was a wrong thing.or not.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 3:24 pm

            Jim, “according to most Christians, Jesus claimed to be God”

            Now, according to most Christians, Jesus claimed to be God, according to NT jesus claims his dependance of the Father and prays to Him. So are you building your anti christian-theology based on opinions of people of the scriptures? Make up your mind.
            Of course doing signs and wonders is not all, yet God still chose to start with it before He spoke to the people. He did something no magician was able to perform before. So did Jesus , his miracles were above all what magic fairy teller can exhaust out of himself .Deut also precisely explains you the reason of a false prophet to be put to death, not for God to contradict the outcome and say ; I take such back to life anyways. You fail to see that one significant truth that the verses convey and the depute on self-resurrection is out of discussion. Another important aspect of explanation in Deut and Ezekiel is the categorizing the prophet into the false one based on him leading other to OTHER GODS which by any means is happening with Jesus who shows the ways to follow which is based on dependance on GOD, who is the Father in heaven ( not man made up gods). And Jesus is putting himself in a position of submission to God ( according to God’s will) towards His decision for Jesus to die for our redemption. That;’s why the need for him.

            It is obvious that you follow the same route of false accusations towards regulations of sabbath that are not grounded in God’s word but HUMAN TRADITION thus you have a problem. One of those extremities is a belief that even a spit on the ground is considered making a clay, mud ( which I showed you based on regulations that it isn’t!)so it is allowed to spit on the ground the same way as it is on wall or the tree,and where ever you want to. This is what Jesus is exposing; man- made law above God’s. The people had twisted the commandments so much that they became a burden instead of the blessing that was intended by God. For ex; the Pharisees say that you can’t make clay on the Sabbath day, because that would be considered work. Yes so how much work it takes to spit on the ground, and how much less/more on the tree to tell them apart and say one is good , the other not? The ridicule of it itself is as obvious as possible to maximum point of extension. But I will just continue to exhaust that subject that is so “profound” ….
            So, on the Sabbath, if somebody had to spit, he would wait until he came to a rock, a tree or a wall, he would not spit on the dirt because he might make clay ( accidentally, or the clay would make itself) and defile the Sabbath. But he didn’t think that even on a rock that spit might turn to a solid after a while and ft it mixed with minerals and dried. Wow what about that?? Jesus did many other ‘similar’ things on the sabbath to show where the leaders had gone wrong (like allowing the disciples to pick a few grains of wheat to snack on as they walked through a field [Luke 6:1-5]). The same work while you pick a food from a bowl at your home- no less/more work done. Then carrying a mat as a symbol of bondage ( on which a man spend all his life lying) and that he was free from that time on. The reason was not to carry a stuff for the sake of carrying as work but showing his freedom gained. He said about the traditions ” Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. [Mark 7:9] But if someone can’t see it , I can’t help. Life goes on. I won’t cry about it. I can just point it out for those who choose to open their eyes.
            If Jesus placed his own authority above Torah ( according to you) leave the judgement to God. You do not need to boil over. So far God proved the opposite about jesus and He was not boiling over with anger raising Him back to life. I am sure He had the reason for His calmness… which you can’t get

            That Jesus required blind acceptance from people is your conception. ” No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me”
            Ask God why you have not heard from the Father. Isaiah 6;9-10 gives such explanation ‘ They have ears but they won’t hear…”
            When he said in John 10 that the works he does in the name of the Father, testify about him he didn’t mean just the miracles but all his life and purpose he came for. And if he spoke something against what in God’s eyes is evil and mans law above God’s , the truth usually hurts especially those who do not agree with it. And all the works were ‘reserved’ for what the Messiah was to do, opening death ears, blind eyes, healing leprosy, setting people free from bondage of sin , which all that to be true – was confirmed by God by resurrection of the one who performed it. Death is a real penalty for sin , not to violate it by magicians and anybody who desires. God has the last word about it to say.
            The mud that he created was unnecessary but blowing trumpets at Jericho walls was necessary for God to turn them down? I do not think so , He would certainly do without it yet still He chose that means of his work.
            Can’t you get an insight in your own limitations sometimes to understand why God does things He does, which you would do differently as you do not see a reason behind ? Just a good suggestion..
            You seem to be a former Christian who never really knew Jesus personally except the spoken stories about him (lot’s of Christians just abide by) but never got that reconciliation with God through His son. I know one family like that . pitiful now…
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 5:51 pm

            Eric, Where are you getting your information regarding Shabbat. It seems the only ones who have an issue with the Rabbis was Jsus and his convincing his followers. A person doesn’t find Torah observant Jews complaining about all this. It’s interesting how YOU see it as a burden but Jews would see it as an avenue to show love. No doubt you have never experienced a Jewish Kosher Shabbat, otherwise you would think differently.

            For one thing, Jsus was NOT part of the Sanhedrin so he had NO authority for anything he said or done. He was in DIRECT violation of Torah, which are G-D”S commandment and NOT his. If he was picking grains he is in violation of harvesting. The entire point Torah makes regarding Shabbat is to Prepare for it. If he was observant he would have prepared. He even speaks of preparedness, yet he cannot prepare for Shabbat. It sounds like pure laziness.

            Furthermore you do not understand what “work” is defined as in regards to Shabbat. Maye Jsus didn’t either. Also, you, and every other Xtian, cannot seem to understand that Torah IS G-d’s law. Jsus can say, and complain, all he wants but he cannot supersede what G-d said to do, no matter WHO he thinks he is.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:52 pm

            Sharbano, If you can’t distinguish between God’s law and man’ made traditions , I do not have to ‘work’ on anything to give you answers. It will be pointless.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:59 pm

            Eric Jesus believed in those “man made traditions” that you denigrate
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:11 pm

            ypf, are you following? ” Jesus believed in those “man made traditions” that you denigrate”
            I am not talking about festivals , holidays , this type of tradition etc but extremities that were added to the law likes spitting on the ground considered breaking the law.. and all jesus examples I mentioned in mail to Jim.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:39 pm

            Eric I am following – Jesus never says that this is not considered forbidden work on the Sabbath – he uses other arguments to justify his behavior and that of his disciples – are you following?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:44 pm

            ypf, be more specific in your examples where Jesus justifies his behavior. You have to understand that if you do not see him as God’s sent in charge of things Father gave him to accomplish, and with great authority- you will DO NOT understand his actions and sayings and you will be trying to create a case against him based on every word he said , based on every of his move because it will bather you he is in charge.
            Back to message; Jesus simply showed that spitting on the ground is not a sin and picking the mud you spitted on.
            In your law only a Blilah Aveh is biblically forbidden to be made on the Sabbath
            ( according to Mishneh Torah Shabbos 8:16, 21:33–36; Shulkhan Arukh Orach Chayim 321,324; Chayei Adam Shabbos 19)
            Davar Nozel and Chatichot Gedolot are not really mixtures, EVEN after adding the LIQUID to the SOLID , they are PERMITTED to be made on the sabbath. which are a pourable liquid with a similar viscosity to water( including saliva) or large pieces of solid mixed with a liquid.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:55 pm

            Eric When challenged with his violation of the Sabbath Jesus refers to the law of circumcision on the sabbath, to the law of bringing offerings on the Sabbath and to the instance where David ate from the consecrated bread. If Jesus did not agree with the definition of the Sabbath according to which he was accused – he would not have needed such arguments to defend himself – he could have told them that their definitions were wrong – instead he said that the application is wrong not the definitions Just to illustrate – if a policeman stops someone for speeding 50 miles an hour and the person excuses himself by saying that it was an extenuating circumstance – you can’t then go and say that this same person believes that the policeman didn’t realize that it was ok to go 50 miles an hour on that road
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 2:03 pm

            ypf, this is simply from your point of view, not justification for having right to blame somebody for wrong motives like him wanting to break the sabbath law. He gave you examples that showed the real need for things to happen. If he started the other way , you would surely find ways to address that too.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:37 pm

            Eric If Jesus compares his disciples picking grain to David eating the consecrated bread this means that he acknowledges that his disciples violated the Sabbath and he just feels that the situation was an exception to the rule – otherwise his comparison is invalid This is not my point of view this is facing facts
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:19 pm

            ypf, but did God condemn David?no, He understood the reason. So He understands many kinds of ’emergencies’ as a day of circumcision or helping somebody. and He doesn’t call it violation.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:45 pm

            Eric The point is that these activities are violations of the Sabbath even according to Jesus and your ridicule of our definition of forbidden work on the Sabbath is misplaced. Now you are bringing up another question – are there extenuating circumstances that allow for a lawful violation of the Sabbath – there certainly are – but does that mean that Jesus applied these exceptions correctly? We need to examine each one on a case by case basis – this is our responsibility before God and His holy Law
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:19 pm

            What man made tradition. The Rabbis have the dutiful task of carrying out G-d’s law.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:28 pm

            Sharb,you are loosing the beginning points of the discussion. I am not talking about the law or traditions for the sake of it but in relation of Jesus being accused of breaking the law which we carried in the conversation about him spitting on the ground, which by jim was classified as law breaking. This is the ‘man made tradition’ that I am addressing that Jesus “broke’ as it was not God’s origin but peoples regulations extended to extremes.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 11, 2015 at 7:12 am

            I believe Jim DID distinguish between mere spitting and making a paste. One thing you don’t seem to grasp is regulations the Rabbis instituted were to prevent the inadvertent violation that has the most serious penalties. It is a minor violation of a Rabbinic decree whereas a Torah violation is more severe. Look what happened to the man, in Torah, who picked up sticks on Shabbat. Rabbis don’t want this to happen to Anyone. How do you think these came into existence. Evidently you “Assume” that the Rabbis were dictators who didn’t have the concerns of the people. If they were so evil why did the Vast majority decide to follow These Rabbis. What this Has accomplished, with regard to Xtians, is this group will more and more depart from Torah. Once a person makes an excuse, the excuses become more predominant and Torah will be eventually dismissed as irrelevant.
          • Jim says:

            August 10, 2015 at 9:12 am

            Eric,

            Very good. Now that we see that a thick mixture, like mud, is prohibited on the Sabbath, we can see the problem. (Mud is the word in my translation.)

            Keep in mind, Eric, that John does not dismiss the charge. The conflict is not between Torah Law and a fence created by the rabbis. This is not a halachic discussion. Read John 9, and you will note that John does not say anything about rabbinic decrees that have no authority. Instead what we have is confusion. Jesus has broken the Sabbath. Some are troubled by this (v. 16). Then others respond, as you have, that if Jesus is doing miracles, he must be of God. The man who was healed has declared that Jesus is a prophet, but he does not yet have sufficient evidence. His conclusion rests on the fact that he profited by Jesus.

            Now we have a problem. We know from Deuteronomy 13 that doing signs and wonders is not the final test of a prophet. While you have steadfastly ignored this chapter, I assure you that it is part of the Torah. It tells us that even someone who preaches idolatry may be allowed to perform signs and wonders, so that God may test His people. Now, according to most Christians, Jesus claimed to be God, so that eliminates any possibility that he is a prophet of God, let alone Messiah. But even if he did not claim to be God, the problem remains that he broke the Sabbath needlessly. He allowed his disciples to break the Sabbath (Matthew 12). He told a man whom he healed to carry his mat on the Sabbath (John 5). These things show, not only that he is a sinless man, as most Christians claim, but that he placed his own authority above the Torah.

            It was more than reasonable for people to ask for greater proof that He was from God. It is no answer at all to demand blind acceptance from them. He appealed to his miracles as proof, but he complicated those miracles through his actions. I remind you that the mud that he created was unnecessary. When he says in chapter 10 of John that his works testify plainly to him, this is clearly untrue. It is as clear as the mud he fashioned on the Sabbath. And he is the source of the confusion. This is why he must denigrate them, telling them that the reason they do not believe is because they are not his sheep.

            He does not address their reasons. He does not teach. Instead, he attacks them. It is easy to dismiss your opponent as evil, for not agreeing with you. However, this is an ugly practice. It is worse when your own actions are so mixed that they demand further investigation.

            We have a choice. We can follow God’s Torah. Or we can follow miracles. Many people in the world today claim to do miracles, Christian and non-Christian alike. Are we to follow them all? Should we make a pastiche religion of all their teachings? Or should we follow HaShem? Should we keep His Torah, the Seven Laws for the non-Jew and the 613 for the Jew?

            Obviously, I cannot answer for you. But I can tell you that Torah forbids us from following someone on the basis of miracles alone. I must submit myself to the God of the Universe, my Creator and Master. As for me and my house, we will serve HaShem.

            Jim
        • ChristianPaul says:

          August 7, 2015 at 1:25 pm

          Peace to you Jim!

          The Messiah I know and that the Orthodox Church worship is not your messiah that you deform and denigrate. Our Messiah is God in the flesh not a mere human or a simple teacher. He is the Word of God and all the miracles and his Resurrection proves that his words were true for He can not deny Himself being the Truth.

          You reject Him to your own peril based on details that are scrupulous, not divine. You can not criticize the Torah but the Gospel you can. Both being canonized it is not permitted anymore to questioned them. The Church Authority and the Sanhedrin authority of that time were the authority instituted by God and no ones has the power to question .

          Of course you can disobey and rebel yourself but that will not make it true for a mere human who do not have the authority to do so, do it out of pride and arrogance and presumption. Ask any Orthodox Jews if they can question the Tanakh. They will response by a clear NO. For the Orthodox Christians it is exactly the same.

          Now like I said before the Orthodox Church is the legitimate successor of the Second Temple Judaism. Actually we are the accomplishment of ancient promises. Like a tree that grows from a seed we are the Tree who produces the fruit of the saints one with the Saint.

          One we will see the Jewish People join the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and from Sion the Torah will be taught to all nations. This time I hope will come soon! Glory be to the Father in the Heavens now and forever!

          Blessings!

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 7, 2015 at 4:04 pm

            One interesting thing about the Xtian bible is how it is organized. This bible has the prophets at the end so as to segue into the Xtian text. By using that order the effort is to give credence to a fulfillment of the prophecies. Whereas the Hebrew Bible has Tehillim (Psalms) after the prophets. This too, has significance.

            It is quite clear there was a reason behind those who canonized the Xtian writings. They were aware that initially there was not a belief in the deification of Jsus. This was one of the main divisions that plagued the Council of Nicea. If the books were organized by the order of WHEN they were written it is obvious that an evolution occurred. As each writer came to write his version of events it gradually incorporated more and more suggestions of deification until it reaches a point that Jsus Becomes the god and is the one who actually is the creating god. If it would have been edited in the historical context the people would have continued their divisions and Constantine would not have this. The final determination places the process of deification dispersed throughout and convinces people that it was a belief from the very beginning. The storyline has Jsus verses the Pharisees, because of this deification, at the very beginning and a reader would assume that this is the first encounter between the two, when, in fact, this is not the case, if at all. Considering how adamant the Council was in assigning this deification, to the point of exiling and even executing detractors, one can easily assume all measures were taken to ensure there would be no doubt to its authenticity. From then on there would be little resistance to that theology.

            At this point in time Jews were no longer part of this “new covenant” and were considered abandoned by G-d, despised and rejected (sound familiar) Given that this all took place well after the the destruction of the Temple it is now concluded that G-d has rejected His people for their unbelief, and not accepting “their messiah” (sound familiar). Those who are the now believers aren’t Jews and don’t have the benefit of Judaism, nor Jewish liturgy, nor Jewish culture, nor any Jewish education. Therefore anything written regarding the Jewish scriptures can be inserted and the believer has no reason to question the truth of the matter. We have a god who tells us this is the truth and therefore cannot be disputed. Now, if the Jew doesn’t believe this he is going against god and the only other entity to follow would be the devil. If the Jew is considered to be rejecting the Father then their father is none other than the devil (sound familiar). At this point the church has as its opposition in the world none other than the devil and Who is the embodiment of that devil, the Jew. It is considered a righteous act to thwart and fight against the devil and its embodiment. From here on it’s a war against the devil and his disciples, the Jew. The nations, and peoples, have always considered the Jew a second-class citizen not worthy of consideration. This will continue until Israel becomes a state and “some” will recognize they were wrong about the Jews being considered abandoned by G-d, despised and rejected, and will want to curry favor with His people, blessing them, so as not to bring curses upon themselves. Others will say the founding of the State has no impact on G-d’s banishment because the Temple is still not in their hands. Those others had to relinquish their thinking once the Temple Was back into Israel’s hands.

            What we have now is a resurgence of people who followed those at the forefront of the religion in that they follow the Noachide laws. It is a group of people that have been expanding their ranks on a daily basis. There is also a resurgence in Jews returning to Torah. It has been said there are more Jews who are Torah observant now than at any time in history. This is all part of what Jews have known and understood for the past 2000 years. G-d made promises to the Jew that has not changed and has been reinforced generation after generation. It is the same regarding redemption also. We realize we are at the beginning of what will be the age of redemption. We know this because it is all in Torah, which is the seat of wisdom.
34. Jim says:

    August 5, 2015 at 3:32 pm

    David,

    I do not follow.

    Jim

    Reply
35. ChristianPaul says:

    August 6, 2015 at 12:50 pm

    Hi Sharbano and Jim! Peace to you!

    First Jim if I have humiliated you whatsoever forgive me. You did not show me where but if that is your feeling again forgive me. Thank you and many blessings!

    Sharbano you talked about a cave. Luke being Greek certainly does not know the precise burial of the patriarch although Joseph as a son of Jacob was buried where he wrote. But again books of Acts of the Apostles is a book on the acts of the apostles after the Pentecost therefore you insistence on errors of Geography or History is not crucial to the message transmitted in and for the Church. Human errors of typo or context does not invalidate the testimonial message. You expect that the Bible has no typo or contextual errors. That is risky from your part to assert. Be careful for many atheist have already dig in this assertion of yours. You must be careful.

    One question for you: do you believe like the fundamentalist Christian that Creation was made in 6 human days?

    Now Jim about humility: if someone of noble condition in his country came in a country and hidden the fact that he was a noble and made everything to be treated like a servant. This man surely would be called humble!

    But if a servant a cleaner of toilets in a country try to elevate himself to the condition of a noble by stealing from a noble man his clothes and even killing him to take his name. What would that man be? An arrogant, vain and prideful man not counting that he is a stealer and murderer of noble blood.

    Here Yeshua is the First and the second are the wicked ones…

    P.S.: David Showbread infraction was not an emergency for being the king he could have requested the food he wanted when he wanted. Your scale of judgment is not well adjusted. Thank you to rectify it! Also the Christ being the author of the Torah gives the wind of the Torah to correctly interpret all the Torah. If you have not the wind of the Torah therefore you can not navigate properly in the seas of the world…

    Shalom!

    Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 6, 2015 at 12:56 pm

      Christian
      About humble – if this noble man who appeared like a servant goes and tell everyone what he did to get the acclaim of being humble then he is arrogant
      https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/humility-and-arrogance/

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 6, 2015 at 1:17 pm

        Rabbi Shalom!

        Your definition of humility is puzzling. In your post on humility you only showed the power of God in action. That is not humility but strength! That is your error and all the scribes and the knowledgeable persons of the Torah… you were waiting for a powerful Messiah and you received from the Father a humble one ridding on a donkey. God chose and you refused it and therefore punish you for having dared to.

        I just hope for you and all the Jewish People that when you will see the False Messiah coming that you will eventually realize your mistakes.

        Many blessings and the truth will prevail! Thank you!

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 6, 2015 at 1:33 pm

          Christian
          It is clear that you don’t understand humility – humility is submission. In my post I demonstrated how God, the Creator of heaven and earth submitted Himself to the questioning minds of His own creations.
          And by the way – we wait for the Messiah predicted by the prophets of God
          https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/letter-to-sy-about-messiah/

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 6, 2015 at 5:07 pm

            Dear Rabbi,

            Our definition of humility are not so different. Submission to the will of God is called obedience a daughter of humility. The supreme humility of God is manifest in his Son made flesh. That is humility when being of high condition you take the rank of servant.

            Therefore in the orthodox Church the quality that show us if you are established in truth reside in the spirit of humility. Humility is not a virtue easily acceptable but without it no elevation can be possible:

            Take a tree if the roots of humility are not present and deeply grounded in the earth any elevation of the tree subject to a strong wind blowing will crush the tree to the ground. Therefore for us when humility is present the tree gets stronger. In Orthodox Ascetics, humility is the virtue of the strong and the saints in what we call the paradox of the Cross. In the humiliation of the Cross, the Messiah show the world how strong he was and how his humiliation was transformed in our elevation to the heavens, us who were the last in the creation of old and now are the first in the new creation about to be revealed.

            Many blessings and pray for me a sinner in need of much humility! Thank you!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 7:55 pm

            Christian Humility is submitting to God’s truth – something that Jesus did not do. There is nothing more arrogant than to say that “no one comes to the Father but through me” – when God says that He is close to ALL who call upon Him in truth (Psalm 145:18)
        • Sharbano says:

          August 6, 2015 at 5:47 pm

          That donkey scenario is fraught with suspicion. He actually tells his followers to go grab that donkey so he can claim to be messiah. This is an act of such desperation to give some kind of “proof”. If you look at that reference you’ll see that event comes AFTER he is victorious. Read that chapter and SEE how ridiculous it sounds. Sounds like somebody didn’t know their Tanach very well.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 6, 2015 at 9:12 pm

            Rabbi Peace to you!

            You are right Humility submits us to the Truth. The difference between us reside that in what or who is the Truth. For us the Messiah Son of God is the Truth and only in the Truth can we approach the Father Almighty.

            The Messiah can not lie being the Truth in the flesh and when He says that none comes to the Father but through Me, He affirms the Truth which is Himself. Therefore His statement of truth does not contradicts Psalm 145:18:God says that He is close to ALL who call upon Him in truth

            For only in the Messiah God is close to All who call upon Him. That confirms saint John Gospel who says:

            21 “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.”

            Conclusion: 1)God says that He is close to All who call upon Him in Truth.
            2)The Son-Messiah made Flesh is the Truth in the flesh
            3)Therefore God says that He is close to all who call upon Him in His Son made Flesh
            4)Therefore only through the Son we are close to God

            Indeed we proclaim the accomplishment of the Second Temple Judaism in the Holy Orthodox Church in which All are close to the Father whom we call upon daily. Bless be His Son who gives us the incorporation to his Flesh by whom we glorify the Father Almighty in Spirit and Truth.

            Blessings!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 6, 2015 at 10:54 pm

            Christian Perhaps black means white and up means down? Truth means truth. You render the word of God meaningless through your word-games. What did Psalm 145:18 mean before Jesus came on the scene and what changed?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 8:33 pm

            Sharbano,So if the Messiah was foretold he would be entering Jerusalem that way and greeted as a king , would you question details which were to follow him coming to be just a ‘false proof’?
            Have you read matthew 21 correctly? It is not Jesus who says ‘let’s do it to fulfill the prophecy,
          • Sharbano says:

            August 9, 2015 at 8:53 pm

            21 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,

            2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

            3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

            4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

            Sure sounds to me like Jsus tells them to go get the ass. AND a colt? I hadn’t actually picked up on this but apparently in reading they didn’t understand it was a single ass, not two. What, does Jsus have to ride TWO animals. Zechariah says a “humble man riding upon a donkey, upon a foal, a calf of she-donkeys”.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 9:30 pm

            Sharbano, It is obvious that your questions are filled with arguments are based on your lack of knowledge or you really are that blind. You take a message and add stuff that is not even there. None of the gospels says Jesus rode two animals, but an ass and a foal were untied because they were tied together .
          • Sharbano says:

            August 9, 2015 at 9:40 pm

            My goodness Eric do you even read your Own bible.

            loose THEM, and bring THEM unto me.
            Lord hath need of THEM
            straightway he will send THEM.
            sitting upon an ass, AND a colt
            Now, WHO is lacking knowledge and blind. First you say Jsus didn’t instruct this, Then you make further assertions that don’t agree with your bible. Is THIS how Xtians read, overlooking key words and THEN have the gall to call someone “Blind”. You should be ashamed.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 10:08 pm

            Sharbano, “sitting upon an ass, AND a colt? ” Which gospel says he rode 2 animals?? None!
            Where did you take that??? They brought both of them to him,( an ass and a foal, put cloaks on both of them , put cloaks even on a road but it doesn’t say Jesus rode both of them!!! It is rather weird to sit on two animals at the same time.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 9, 2015 at 10:16 pm

            Sharbano, “First you say Jsus didn’t instruct this,” Are you reading me correctly??? I said Jesus didn’t say the words that he rides the donkey TO FULFILL the prophecy!!! v.5 is not his words about himself to promote himself and the prophecy! But I have no problem for him to ask for an animal he was to ride upon. An animal doesn’t ‘show up’ just from nowhere until you get it , does it??
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 8:39 am

            I paraphrased just as it is written. It is Jsus who instructs his followers to get the donkey(s) for the purpose of fulfilling that prophecy. It sounds to me like some writers were making every effort to contrive a set of circumstances.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 1:47 pm

            Sharbano, if it was up to the people how Jesus enters the city , they would honor him and bring a horse.. It was Jesus’s choice out of his humility to ride of an animal that usually a servant would ride. It is so obvious to me that you are trying to add to your speculations everything that is not there to make it all look as you desire; unacceptable.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 5:31 pm

            The whole issue is “this to fulfill a prophecy”. If That wasn’t said there would be no contention. BUT what DOES that prophecy actually talk about. It’s just another of many whereby it simply is NOT about Jsus. Read the context of that prophecy and tell us How Jsus fulfilled it. It’s no wonder why I have been told by So many Xtians they shouldn’t be “questioning” their scriptures. If they Would take a closer look they would have questions that none can answer. And where would they be then.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:49 pm

            Sharbano, Are you realizing that words in the prophecy do not abide by a short time frame but relate to many events that might be stretch in time over thousand years? One line is telling you about present events and the other about an event that is to happen in thousand years and the other even more after. Example Ezekiel is full of those. That’s why you do not get jesus as the messiah. Another example; Isaiah 61 is quoting about the ‘year ‘ of God’s grace and the day of God’s vengeance in the same line which ( based on other prophets) will be separated in a long time from each other.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:54 pm

            Eric Where did you get the idea that God’s grace to Zion and His vengeance against Zion’s enemies will be far apart from each other?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:20 pm

            ypf, ” Where did you get the idea that God’s grace to Zion and His vengeance against Zion’s enemies will be far apart from each other?”
            God doesn’t limit His grace just to Zion, but it is also for all among the nations who will decide to turn back to Him. We have it happening even now, where those who used to be bad are repenting and coming to God. And God is also specifically talking about one day of his judgement coming, a day different than the others ; The Day of the Lord and that day has not come yet,.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:44 pm

            Eric You didn’t answer the question – where did you get the idea that these two events must be far apart from each other?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:54 pm

            ypf, ” where did you get the idea that these two events must be far apart from each other?”
            All prophets show you that God’s grace is not limited to a certain limited time. If after being bad you can come to God now and be forgiven , will you consider it time God’s grace or God’s vengeance?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:56 pm

            Eric But the grace that Isaiah is talking about is the specific grace that God will bless us with in the Messianic era – that will come at the same time as the destruction of God’s enemies
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 2:13 pm

            ypf,you seem to understand it as time of redemption and time of judgement. But simply without grace now we would not participate in that kingdom those who die before.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:39 pm

            Eric The question is what grace was Isaiah talking about – was he talking about the general grace that we experience even now or was he talking about the special grace that we will only experience when Zion’s mourners are comforted? Read the text and you will find the answer.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:16 pm

            What are you talking about. You keep going off on tangents. Many of the prophecies are for specific instances. And those are quite clear. They speak of individuals by name, as with the discussion of Isaiah 7:14. Xtians have to rely on circular reasoning in order to see a hypothetical fulfillment.
            If Jsus is messiah where is the peaceful existence among nations. Where is this messianic age. Is Israel living in peace with the Temple and return of sacrifices etc. Show me where the messiah is reigning in Jerusalem. Maybe the Waqf is messiah. No matter what, you just don’t have any proof. You can “believe” all you want but that isn’t a proof.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 10, 2015 at 7:33 pm

            Sharbano, this is all to happen when he comes to establish his kingdom. His first coming was about our spiritual deliverance which you replace with the nation’s ‘ martyrdom idea ( Is 53) before the future glory..
          • David says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:18 pm

            Sharbano,

            If you weren’t so anti-Christian in your thinking, you’d say it was fulfilled along with most other prophesies that are generally ascribed to Him.

            Moses came back to the mountain of the burning bush and worshiped God thus fulfilling God’s prophesy. Since it was the intention of Moses to follow God’s will in doing so does it then make the fulfillment null and void as you erroneously claim in the case of Jesus?

            And where is your biblical reference that prophesies cannot pertain to more than one event to establish the basis for your claim that it wasn’t fulfilled?

            You conveniently exclude Christian interpretations without biblical support.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 10, 2015 at 6:39 pm

            It’s more like what most Xtians do say, they see Jsus all throughout the bible. If all the supposed 300 prophecies of Jsus were true then virtually all the Jews would have accepted him. What the Xtian calls prophecies are nothing but vague allusions. As it says in Amos, G-d will do nothing without first revealing to His prophets. He doesn’t do it by some hidden messages. The references that Are explicit foretell what Mashiach will accomplish. Since Jsus didn’t do these he is Not Mashiach. It as simple as that.
            How can it be a dual prophecy when a couple of words are taken out for application and all else is discarded. Are we to discard the Words of Hashem.
    • Jim says:

      August 6, 2015 at 2:30 pm

      C. Paul,

      The wind of Torah? That sounds familiar…
      Questions about “absolute” Torah laws? That also sounds familiar…
      Talk of sects vs. the one true Orthodox Church? That’s familiar too…
      An appeal to respect your conscience (as if we came to you to drag you out of the Church), also familiar…

      You remind me of somebody, but I just can’t quite put my finger on it.

      Jim

      Reply
    • Jim says:

      August 6, 2015 at 2:51 pm

      C. Paul,

      It is no good appealing to a wind of Torah. Prove to us that you have been granted special understanding by God on how to interpret Torah. It will do no good merely to declare it. I could do the same, except I am honest. I claim no special authority nor understanding, but if you do, then you should prove it to us. Otherwise, your words are meaningless… wind.

      Regarding the showbread, of course you do not show that the king has rights to the showbread. Like always, you merely assert it. At least you should have read Matthew, if you could not read Tanach. Jesus does not say that it was lawful to eat the bread because he was king. He said that “…it was not lawful for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests” (12.4). Perhaps you should adjust your own scale of judgment.

      I note also that you did not acknowledge that I refuted your weightless judgment that I am legalistic and applying the law inappropriately. You failed to acknowledge that your appeal to emergency cases has no relevance. Instead you seized upon one point which you incorrectly (through your wind, no doubt) answered. It is obvious that you have no response but to declare yourself superior through windy whispers.

      Jim

      Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      August 6, 2015 at 5:39 pm

      Is your “Standard” for “holy texts” THAT low. Who says Luke wrote the book of Acts. We don’t even know who wrote Mathew. It’s rather curious that the book of the Prophets say who is writing them and the same with other writings, the author names himself. And considering the first books were written 30, some 90, or more years After Jsus death we cannot trust Anything that is written. The Xtian text had complaints about the Scribes and maybe they are referencing the Xtian writers.
      I certainly would NOT put any trust in documents that are that suspicious. Apparently there are even different versions of those Xtian books.
      What is curious to note is how vast the laws are in writing a Sefer Torah and the same care goes into the other sacred books yet these “Jews” who write about a savior of the world are SO lax in their efforts in recording those events. From what I gather there are some 30,000 discrepancies in the Xtian text.

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 6, 2015 at 9:28 pm

        Hi Sharbano! Peace to you!

        Don’t worry about the Christian Holy Scriptures they have been canonized by the Ancients of the Church in a Holy Council, therefore rest assure. It is exactly the same process in the time of the canonization of the Jewish Holy Scriptures which by the way can not be doubted by any Jews having been also canonized by the Holy Sanhedrin of the Ancients who recognized there the word of God.

        The compilation of the whole Tanakh did not happened magically in no time. But it was a long process like ours. No illusion here but we must be realistic in conveying candidly that God condescend to our slowness to recognize his authentic word. That is why he ordained sages and ancients in council to decide in the wind of God what is holy and profane. I hope you will understand and respect the word of God. Thank you!

        Blessings!

        P.S.: God is not a deceiver all who invoke him in truth will be heard by Him and He will not lead astray those who love the truth.

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 6, 2015 at 11:02 pm

          Christian You say that “exactly the same process” was used to canonize the Christian Scripture as the one that was used to canonize the Jewish Scriptures. This is false – the two processes are as far apart as east is from west. The people who canonized the Jewish Scriptures were people recognized by the community of God’s witnesses to be judges and teachers – the people who canonized the Christian Scriptures were not.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 7, 2015 at 10:03 am

            Rabbi Shalom to you!

            I do not know where you got your information but it is false. For the Council of Bishops where judges and renown teachers of their communities, their gathering in Council like the Sanhedrin canonized the Christian Scriptures that we have. Same process! The difference is that you believe your Sanhedrin and we believe ours. Who is right?

            Also we accuses the Church of taking time to canonized the Books but compared to the Jewish Assembly it took much more time here a quote from a Jewish site (can you confirm or infirm, thank you):

            “The books that are found in the Bible were selected on account of their divine inspiration. These texts have become a governing guide for the Jewish people. Nevertheless, there are numerous other texts that never made it into the Bible, many of which are lost today. This choosing of texts for the Bible is referred to as canonization, a method of measuring a text’s importance. Canonization is the long procedure of collecting and sequencing of the texts in an order of authority and importance.

            The Pentateuch (Torah), as we know it today, was completed during the Babylonian exile, by the time of Ezra. The Neviim (Prophets) were finalized during the Persian era, approximately 323 B.C.E. The conclusion of the last section of the Bible, ketuvim (Writings) is debated; however, a majority of scholars believe its final canonization occurred in the second century C.E.

            The canon of the Hebrew Bible is somewhat different than that of the Greek Bible (which is the basis for the Christian Bible). The Greek Bible includes several additional books, which were not accepted into the Hebrew Bible. These texts include – 1-4 Maccabees, Judith, and Psalms of Solomon. Furthermore, the two Bibles differ in their sequence of the texts and writings, as well as the order of importance in the placement of texts.”

            Source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/canonization.html

            Many blessings!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 7, 2015 at 2:12 pm

            I haven’t been that impressed with that virtual library, and even more so, when reading their analysis of compilation.
            It sounds as if they are basing Torah authorship using the “Documentary hypothesis”. We Do know that Moshe wrote a Sefer Torah and then made copies that were given to the individual tribes. So I don’t know how they came to a conclusion about Ezra.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 7, 2015 at 2:14 pm

            Christian And who appointed those bishops? who respected them?
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 7, 2015 at 10:15 am

            Hi Chrstian

            What is an oecumenical council? How is it different from a local council? How is an oecumenical council accepted?

            Also, what is the “Old Testament” Canon of the Orthodox Church? Is it the same canon as Cyrill of Jerusalem or Philaret of Moscow, without the apocrypha, or with them?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 7, 2015 at 1:34 pm

            Peace to you Saul!

            Technical questions are for technical persons! I believe the One Holy Orthodox Church for She is the Legitimate Authority on this Earth. I will not let a man make me divert from Her teachings for the Son of God the Messiah Yeshua established Her on the Rock of Faith and no one not even the gates of Hell can vanquish Her.

            Therefore you technical question are for prideful so-called self proclaimed teacher who like the popes but themselves above the other. We are all brothers coming all from Adam and what divides us should unite us from the enemy are the impious ones not pious people whether they are Christian Jew or Muslim…

            Blessings!
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 7, 2015 at 4:17 pm

            Christian,

            Honnestly, it just looks like you are running away from the question. This technical issue is in fact a pillar of your Church. Since the Orthodox Church bases itself on Oecumenical Councils, that shouldn’t be so hard for you to answer. I won’t let you run away from it. You come on this blog to promote the Orthodox Church, then you should at least know the basics. Oecumenical Councils are part of the basics.
        • Sharbano says:

          August 7, 2015 at 9:50 am

          That council being the Council of Nicea no doubt, which was under the direction of Constantine. It was at this time that any relationship to Judaism was expunged. It is also the time when anti-Semitism by the church became acceptable. It can be said this was the beginning of the Roman exile, the two legs of Iron recorded in Daniel. Those that disagreed were subsequently exiled. THIS would be the format from then on, for centuries, that codified persecution of anyone who wasn’t in compliance with the church, especially first and foremost the Jews. Execution would be the norm. It was also a time when the church would forgo using the Jewish calendar and begin their own. Thus began the Xtian Nissan.
          That council primarily dealt with the deity of Jsus and didn’t take under consideration the Xtian holy spirit. It then took centuries for the actual canon to be developed.
          What Is known regarding the Xtian text is they were confronted with various copies and no one could, with certainty, know which was authentic and which were not.

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 7, 2015 at 1:20 pm

            For the Orthodox Church it is not as easy. The truth is they do not have a definitiv canon of Scriptures. No oecumenical council ever stated it. But those oecumenical councils accepted the canons of the local councils. Problem is that the local councils do not have the same canon. This is why the apocrypha have no definitiv place in the Orthodox Church.

            This is what we can read on a good christian orthodox website:

            “We therefore must turn to the Quinisext Ecumenical Synod, which validated six of the numerous Canons (regulations) that had been formulated at the time. These Canons are as follows: Of Laodicea, of Carthage, the 85th Apostolic canon, of Saint Athanasius, of Gregory the Theologian and Amphilochius of Ikonion. Thus, although no canon has been given directly by an Ecumenical Council concerning the Books of the Holy Bible, we do have 6 validated canons based on conciliar decisions that are guidelines for the acceptance of the Books of the Holy Bible.” http://www.oodegr.co/english/ag_grafi/kanonas0.htm

            Let’s read further:

            “Summarizing the above, we could say that : The Holy Bible contains books ( such as the three Books of the Maccabees ) which are only Venerable, but not Divinely Inspired or Divine or Canonical. The Bible contains books ( such as Judith and Tobit ) which are Canonical, but not Divinely Inspired or Divine. And the Bible also contains Divine books ( such as Solomon’s Wisdom ) which are not however Divinely Inspired.”

            Now let’s take the example of the Council of Laodicea:

            “We can see that the Books of Judith, the 3 Books of the Maccabees (the 4th do not comprise part of the Holy Bible, so we will not preoccupy ourselves with it), the Wisdom of Sirah, the Wisdom of Solomon and the Book of Tobit, are all missing here.”

            Point of interest:

            ” Finally, we should mention that in the follow-up of the Laodicean Council’s Canon there is a listing of the Books of the New Testament. However, from that list is missing the Book of Revelations! ” http://www.oodegr.co/english/ag_grafi/kanonas1.htm

            What is interesting is that the Lodicea Church was named in the book of Revelation. That is, the book of revelation was precisely adressed to the Church of Laodicea:

            ““And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.” Revelation 3:14

            So the Council that took place in Laodicea rejected the Book that was supposedly adresseed to the Local Church there.

            So Christian Paul has no real canon of Scriptures.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 7, 2015 at 1:59 pm

            This is too much for me. From everything I can gather there was no real methodology in determining which actual manuscripts to include. I get the impression that the determining factor was whether or not is “sounded” inspired. This tells me that whoever accomplished a better writing skill was considered inspired, that is, an inspirational writer.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 7, 2015 at 1:40 pm

            Hi Saul!

            What you said is emanating from your understanding which is corrupt for all Eastern Orthodox Churches have the same canons of Scriptures.

            Why can you teach us how the Tanakh was canonized if you want to be fair. Let us hear from you. Thank you in advance!

            Blessings!
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 7, 2015 at 3:32 pm

            Rabbi Shalom to you!

            You asked: Christian And who appointed those bishops? who respected them?

            I can ask you the same about you Rabbi who appointed you and the Rabbis who later (many centuries) met in council to approve your actual Tanakh different than the Septuagint which was according to the dead sea scrolls inspired from another version more ancient than your actual Tanakh. Is their any tampering in the texts we can think so, for the famous example is:

            ISAIAH 7:14 the Septuagint says the Virgin will conceive and the Masoretic Text says the Young Woman will conceive. The translators of the Text to the Greek were prior to Christ being even born than they were no agenda for them to tamper the text. But your scribes could have tampered it in order to contra-attack the Christian claim of the Virgin birth. Actually that sign was so powerful that Judaism could have completely crumbled if you had not change Virgin to Young Woman to moderate the damaged to your credibility.

            The Bishops were ordained back to the Christ and the first 12 Apostles. Like your Priests should have been ordained by line of succession from Moses to your High Priest at the time of Christ. Now my question having no more Temple and having no priest ordained since the Destruction of the Second Temple how can you guarantee the line of succession. We Orthodox Christian say that the chief Priest in the Orthodox Church are ordained by line of Succession as High Priest of each Territory to whom they reign. That is the Bishop the visible sign of the Holy Orthodox Church. The chief liturgist, the chief teacher, the chief pastor, the successor of the Holy Apostles that is the Bishop to whom we respect has being like the Messiah still on Earth.

            Blessings!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 7, 2015 at 4:30 pm

            I see you are your old self again. You cannot answer a straightforward question and have to use the tactic of diverting the subject. This is typical when confronted with a question that is troubling to a belief.

            You’re really going to bring up That old canard, that Jews tampered with the books. Xtians came up with this lie when the Hebrew Bible didn’t agree with the what Xtianity was teaching. It is the same canard that one finds on the internet regarding Talmud. It is ALL based upon the charge that Jews are children of the devil. Xtianity has hated Jews from the beginning and the acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree. It is nothing short of disgusting and despicable.

            Xtians have NO structure in copying texts. Jews, on the other hand, have extensive laws governing the copying of texts. Your assumptions regarding the Septuagint are dishonest. The Xtians of that time actually admitted that there are serious issues with that book. And thus your reference of Isaiah 7:14 is just another case in point of this despicable insult. Also, the Jews DID NOT translate anything Other than Torah. This is another despicable lie. Furthermore, if you are going to suggest this is actually virgin, then there are two individuals who had a virgin birth.

            There IS a chain of transmission going back to Moshe. What is YOUR chain of transmission. Considering what the church was doing in the 3rd and 4th centuries there is much more doubt regarding Those leaders.

            Lastly, considering your post I DO NOT want your “blessings”. It’s a curse in disguise.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 7, 2015 at 4:51 pm

            Christian The Septuagint says nothing about a virgin and even if it would it does nothing to help your idolatrous cause because Isaiah is speaking about an event in his own time. The bishops of whom you speak never respected by the community of God’s appointed witnesses (Israel) – the sages who canonized the Tanach were. the difference between them is the difference between night and day
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 7, 2015 at 4:58 pm

            Christian Also – to say that the Septuagint is more ancient than the Masoretic text is a myth – they existed side by side and the MT was much more popular. And besides – the Dead Sea Scroll Isaiah which predates Christianity does not have a virgin in 7:14
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 7, 2015 at 4:29 pm

            Christian Paul, if i’m wrong, prove it. If you can’t, then don’t say anything.

            ” your actual Tanakh different than the Septuagint which was according to the dead sea scrolls inspired from another version more ancient than your actual Tanakh.”

            This makes absolutely no sense.

            “ISAIAH 7:14 the Septuagint says the Virgin will conceive and the Masoretic Text says the Young Woman will conceive. The translators of the Text to the Greek were prior to Christ being even born than they were no agenda for them to tamper the text. But your scribes could have tampered it in order to contra-attack the Christian claim of the Virgin birth. Actually that sign was so powerful that Judaism could have completely crumbled if you had not change Virgin to Young Woman to moderate the damaged to your credibility.”

            We already refuted you on the LXX. We have no pre-christian manuscript, and the 70 sages only translated the first 5 books.

            “The Bishops were ordained back to the Christ and the first 12 Apostles.”

            The lines of succession are contradictory and not reiable.

            “Now my question having no more Temple and having no priest ordained since the Destruction of the Second Temple how can you guarantee the line of succession.”

            Because God promised it.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 7, 2015 at 4:35 pm

            If that Septuagint is so accurate Why in one place does it say there are 75 that went to Egypt and in another place say 70. They cannot even get their own version right. Which brings to mind, if the Septuagint is that faulty how much more so the Xtian text.
          • David says:

            August 8, 2015 at 2:29 pm

            Yisroel,

            Your characterization as a myth that the Septuagint is older than the MT is itself a myth.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 9, 2015 at 1:19 am

            David Proto Masoretic and Proto Septuagint texts both date back to Second Temple with proto mt outnumbering proto Septuagint by a ratio of about 6 to 1 – Yes, the MT received its final redaction much later – but it was there from the beginning
          • David says:

            August 8, 2015 at 3:17 pm

            Sharbano,

            Regarding apparent inconsistencies with numbers in the bible which you term as “contradictions” when it comes to the Septuagint, please explain if you will, the apparent inconsistencies in the JPS version which is based on the MT if not a scribal error?

            Forty or four?

            I Kings 4:26
            II Chronicles 9:25

            Is it 3 or 7 years of famine?
            II Samuel 24:13
            I Chronicles 21:11

            No sons or 5 sons for Michal, or is it Michal or Merab?
            II Samuel 6:23
            II Samuel 21:8

            And while we’re at it:
            Is it Satan or HaShem?
            I Chronicles:21:1
            II Samuel 24:1
          • David says:

            August 8, 2015 at 3:44 pm

            Yisroel,

            Also regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint, Christianity, MT:

            The Septuagint predates them all at least in part. The DSS and Christianity were contemporaries of each other. Jews at the time of Jesus used both the Septuagint and the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Aramaic Text of the “Hebrew Scriptures.” The MT was a relative latecomer to the party at around the 7th to the 10th century. Also keep in mind that the MT sets the precise letter-text of the Hebrew Scriptures (something not present in the DSS), with their vocalization and accentuation known as the Masorah.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 9, 2015 at 1:23 am

            David Your history is off as explained earlier – in the Qumran caves a full 60% were proto Masoretic while only 5% were Septuagint type texts. To date the Mt by its final redaction is simply foolish. A good book to read on this subject is “Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls” by Lawrence Schiffman
          • Sharbano says:

            August 9, 2015 at 10:39 am

            According to Josephus very few Jews of that time knew any Greek. The only ones who Did were the Hellenists and most of them weren’t residing in Israel. What you are insinuating here is an assumption that explains why the Xtian texts are in error. Is that why Jsus made “his” errors, because he relied on a Septuagint, when he states, The L-ord said to my Lord. It’s quite interesting that Origen relates how problematic that Septuagint actually is.
            The reason it is called the Maoretic text is because the vowel indications are part of a Mesorah, a Tradition. Without that Mesorah a person wouldn’t have even been able to read a Sefer Torah.
36. ChristianPaul says:

    August 7, 2015 at 3:10 pm

    Shalom to all! The myth that the Jewish Canon of Scriptures was made in no time is a myth here proven. It took many centuries more to fully determine the Jewish Scriptures.

    Development of the Hebrew Bible canon

    (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
    This article is about the selection of the books which make up the Tanakh. For the fixing of the text itself, see Masoretic Text. This article is about the Jewish canon. For the Christian canon, see Development of the Old Testament canon.

    Rabbinic Judaism recognizes the 24 books of the Masoretic Text, commonly called the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible, as authoritative.[1] Modern scholarship suggests that the most recently written are the books of Jonah, Lamentations, and Daniel, all of which may have been composed as late as the second century BCE.

    The Book of Deuteronomy includes a prohibition against adding or subtracting,[2][3] which might apply to the book itself (i.e. a “closed book,” a prohibition against future scribal editing) or to the instruction received by Moses on Mt. Sinai.[4]

    The book of 2 Maccabees, itself not a part of the Jewish canon, describes Nehemiah (around 400 BCE) as having “founded a library and collected books about the kings and prophets, and the writings of David, and letters of kings about votive offerings” (2:13–15). The Book of Nehemiah suggests that the priest-scribe Ezra brought the Torah back from Babylon to Jerusalem and the Second Temple (8–9) around the same time period. Both 1 and 2 Maccabees suggest that Judas Maccabeus (around 167 BCE) also collected sacred books (3:42–50, 2:13–15, 15:6–9).

    There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty,[5] while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later.[6]

    Contents

    1 Sirach
    2 Septuagint
    3 Dead Sea Scrolls
    4 Philo
    5 Josephus
    6 2 Esdras
    7 Pharisees
    8 Council of Jamnia
    9 References

    Sirach

    Evidence of a collection of sacred scripture similar to portions of the Hebrew Bible comes from the book of Sirach (dating from 180 BCE and not included in the Jewish canon), which includes a list of names of Old Testament biblical figures (44–49) in the same order as is found in the Torah and the Nevi’im (Prophets), and which includes the names of some men mentioned in the Ketuvim (Writings). Based on this list of names, some scholars have conjectured[7] that the author, Yeshua ben Sira, had access to, and considered authoritative, the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve Minor Prophets.

    His list excludes names from Ruth, Song of Songs, Esther and Daniel, suggesting that people mentioned in these works did not fit the criteria of his current listing of great men,[8] or that he did not have access to these books, or did not consider them authoritative. In the prologue to the Greek translation of Ben Sira’s work, his grandson, dated at 132 BCE, mentions both the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nevi’im), as well as a third group of books which is not yet named as Ketuvim (the prologue simply identifies “the rest of the books”)[9]
    Septuagint
    Main article: Septuagint

    The Septuagint (LXX) is a Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, translated in stages between the 3rd to 2nd century BCE in Alexandria, Egypt.

    According to Michael Barber, “In the Septuagint, the Torah and Nevi’im are established as canonical, but the Ketuvim appear not to have been definitively canonized yet (some editions of the Septuagint include, for instance I–IV Maccabees or the 151st Psalm, while others do not include them, also there are the Septuagint additions to Esther, Jeremiah, and Daniel and 1 Esdras). The author might have been done by seventy (or seventy-two) elders who translated the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek but the historical evidence for this story is rather sketchy. ” Beyond that, according to Barber, it is virtually impossible to determine when each of the other various books was incorporated into the Septuagint.[10]

    Philo and Josephus (both associated with first century Hellenistic Judaism) ascribed divine inspiration to its translators, and the primary ancient account of the process is the circa 2nd century BCE Letter of Aristeas. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls attest to Hebrew texts other than those on which the Masoretic Text was based; in some cases, these newly found texts accord with the Septuagint version.[11] Strong evidence exists that the Septuagint was the canon in place in first century Palestine. “Authors Archer and Chirichigno list 340 places where the New Testament cites the Septuagint but only 33 places where it cites from the Masoretic Text rather than the Septuagint.”[12]
    Dead Sea Scrolls
    See also: Dead Sea Scrolls

    The theory that there was a closed Hebrew canon of Second Temple Judaism was further challenged by the textual variants found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Michael Barber writes, “Up until recently it was assumed that “apocryphal” additions found in the books of the LXX represented later augmentations in the Greek to the Hebrew texts. In connection with this, the Masoretic text (MT) established by the rabbis in the medieval period has been accepted as the faithful witness to the Hebrew Bible of the 1st century. Yet, this presupposition is now being challenged in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls.”[10]

    Evidence that supports these challenges include the fact that “copies of some Biblical books found at Qumran reveal sharp divergences from the MT.” As an example of such evidence, Barber asserts that “scholars were amazed to find that the Hebrew copies of 1 and 2 Samuel found in Cave 4 agree with the LXX against the MT. One of these fragments is dated into the third century BCE and is believed to be the very oldest copy of a biblical text found to date. Clearly the Masoretic version of 1–2 Samuel is significantly inferior here to the LXX exemplar.”[10]

    The Dead Sea scrolls refer to the Torah and Nevi’im and suggest that these portions of the Bible had been canonized before 68 CE. A scroll that contains all or parts of 41 biblical psalms, although in a different order than in the current Book of Psalms and which includes eight texts not found in the Book of Psalms, suggests that the Book of Psalms had not yet been canonized. See also Psalms 152–155.
    Philo

    In the 1st century CE, Philo Judaeus of Alexandria discussed sacred books, but made no mention of a three part division of the Bible; though his De vita contemplativa [13] (sometimes suggested in the 19th century to be of later, Christian, authorship)[14] does state at III(25) that “studying… the laws and the sacred oracles of God enunciated by the holy prophets, and hymns, and psalms, and all kinds of other things by reason of which knowledge and piety are increased and brought to perfection.” Philo quotes almost exclusively from the Torah, but occasionally from Ben Sira and Wisdom of Solomon.[15][16]
    Josephus
    Further information: Josephus

    According to Michael Barber,[10] the earliest and most explicit testimony of a Hebrew canonical list comes from Josephus (37CE – c. 100CE): “For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have], but only twenty-two books, which contain all the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death… the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life.”

    Josephus refers to sacred scriptures divided into three parts, the five books of the Torah, thirteen books of the Nevi’im, and four other books of hymns and wisdom.[17] Since there are 24 books in the current Jewish canon instead of the 22 mentioned by Josephus, some scholars[who?] have suggested that he considered Ruth part of Judges, and Lamentations part of Jeremiah. Other scholars[who?] suggest that at the time Josephus wrote, such books as Esther and Ecclesiastes were not yet considered canonical.

    According to Gerald Larue,[18] Josephus’ listing represents what came to be the Jewish canon, although scholars were still wrestling with problems of the authority of certain writings at the time that he was writing. Significantly, Josephus characterizes the 22 books as canonical because they were divinely inspired; he mentions other historical books that were not divinely inspired and that he therefore did not believe belonged in the canon.

    Michael Barber agrees that although “scholars have reconstructed Josephus’ list differently, it seems clear that we have in his testimony a list of books very close to the Hebrew canon as it stands today.” However, Barber avers that Josephus’ canon is “not identical to that of the modern Hebrew Bible”. He points out that it is debatable whether or not Josephus’ canon had a tripartite structure. And thus, Barber warns that “one should be careful not to overstate the importance of Josephus.” In support of this caveat, Barber points out that “Josephus was clearly a member of the Pharisaic party and, although he might not have liked to think so, his was not the universally accepted Jewish Bible—other Jewish communities included more than twenty-two books.”[10]
    2 Esdras

    The first reference to a 24-book Jewish canon is found in 2 Esdras 14:45–46, which was probably written in the first half of the 2nd century CE:

    Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people.
    —RSV

    Pharisees

    The Pharisees also debated the status of these extra-canonical books, and in the 2nd century CE Akiva ben Joseph declared that those who read them would not share in the afterlife (Sanhedrin 10:1).
    Council of Jamnia
    Main article: Council of Jamnia

    The Mishnah, compiled at the end of the 2nd century CE, describes a debate over the status of some books of Ketuvim, and in particular over whether or not they render the hands ritually impure. Yadaim 3:5 calls attention to a debate over Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. The Megillat Ta’anit, in a discussion of days when fasting is prohibited but that are not noted in the Bible, mentions the holiday of Purim. Based on these, and a few similar references, Heinrich Graetz concluded in 1871 that there had been a Council of Jamnia (or Yavne in Hebrew) which had decided Jewish canon sometime in the late 1st century (c. 70–90). This became the prevailing scholarly consensus for much of the 20th century.

    W. M. Christie was the first to dispute this popular theory in the July 1925 edition of The Journal of Theological Studies in an article entitled “The Jamnia Period in Jewish History”. Jack P. Lewis wrote a critique of the popular consensus in the April 1964 edition of the Journal of Bible and Religion entitled “What Do We Mean by Jabneh?” Raymond E. Brown largely supported Lewis in his review published in the Jerome Biblical Commentary (also appears in the New Jerome Biblical Commentary of 1990), as did Lewis’ discussion of the topic in 1992’s Anchor Bible Dictionary.[19] Sid Z. Leiman made an independent challenge for his University of Pennsylvania thesis published later as a book in 1976, in which he wrote that none of the sources used to support the theory actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions were about canonicity at all, stating that they were actually dealing with other concerns entirely. Other scholars have since joined in and today the theory is largely discredited.[20]

    Some scholars argue that the Jewish canon was fixed earlier by the Hasmonean dynasty.[5] Jacob Neusner published books in 1987 and 1988 that argued that the notion of a biblical canon was not prominent in 2nd-century Rabbinic Judaism or even later and instead that a notion of Torah was expanded to include the Mishnah, Tosefta, Jerusalem Talmud, Babylonian Talmud and midrashim.[6]

    Thus, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. Nevertheless, the outcomes attributed to the Council of Jamnia did occur whether gradually or as the ruling of a definitive, authoritative council. According to Gerald Larue,[18] the criteria used in the selection of sacred books to be included in the Jewish canon have not been set forth in any “clear-cut delineation” but appear to have included the following:

    The writing had to be composed in Hebrew. The only exceptions, which were written in Aramaic, were Daniel 2–7, writings attributed to Ezra (Ezra 4:8–6:18; 7:12–26), who was recognized as the founding father of post-Exilic Judaism, and Jer. 10:11. Hebrew was the language of Sacred Scripture, Aramaic the language of common speech.
    The writing had to be sanctioned by usage in the Jewish community. The use of Esther at Purim made it possible for it to be included in the canon. Judith, without such support, was not acceptable.
    The writings had to contain one of the great religious themes of Judaism, such as election, or the covenant. By reclassifying the Song of Songs as an allegory, it was possible to see in this book an expression of covenantal love.
    The writing had to be composed before the time of Ezra, for it was popularly believed that inspiration had ceased then. Jonah was accepted because it used the name of an early prophet and dealt with events before the destruction of Nineveh, which occurred in 612 BCE. The Book of Daniel had its setting in the Exile and therefore was accepted as an Exilic document.

    Blessings!

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      August 7, 2015 at 4:32 pm

      Wikipedia as a source??? What a joke!!!!

      Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 7, 2015 at 4:46 pm

      Christian This comment is entirely irrelavent

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 8, 2015 at 11:00 pm

        Rabbi Peace to you!

        Why is it irrelevant? Surely it destroys the myth of instant Scriptures what you reproached our Scriptures of lacking. You can not have it both ways. You see the Lord respect the process of canonization where his Holy Spirit guarantees the validity of a Holy Council but this you can not accept it. Magical thinking is not healthy we must have the humility to accept the human process. The Lord does not destroy our humanity but transforms it into his Grace. I hope you will realize the true Beauty of the Orthodox Christianity as I love my fellow Orthodox Jews.

        May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and may his Face shines upon you!

        Thank you for your prayer for I am a poor sinner!

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 9, 2015 at 1:30 am

          Christian At what point did I propose that Scripture was canonized “instantly”?

          Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 9, 2015 at 10:43 am

          If that council was guided by your holy spirit, the same one that recorded the errors of Stephen, how can it possibly be trusted. Would their guidance be from a foundation of a book that Origen called into question regarding its accuracy. Maybe your holy spirit was actually the S’tan in disguise.

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 9, 2015 at 10:49 am

            The holy Spirit not only recored mistakes, but inspired them. In Acts 6 we can read that Stephean was full of the Spirit, and the Spirit spoke wisdom through Stepen’s Tongue.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 9, 2015 at 11:08 am

            Such wisdom indeed! He Only made 4 or 5 mistakes. Surely that isn’t all bad. What IS interesting is that EVERY SINGLE Xtian will dance around this and make all kind of excuses. THEN, they try and find Something in Tanach They can attack. When the Entire religion is based upon an all knowing holy spirit to “Guide” the Xtian, and a great many Use Stephen, and it is found to be error filled, instead of spirit filled, there are serious problems.
          • LB says:

            August 9, 2015 at 11:02 am

            Saul G.
            I would just like to say what a great addition to a Olympic class of commenters you are on this blog.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 9, 2015 at 11:25 am

            Thank you very much LB!

            For Acts 6(New King James):

            Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; 4 but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”
            (…)
            5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit,
            Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke.

            Ah Sharbano yes. Last time i talked about it to a Christian, he replied “Stephen is a man and can make mistakes”. Wich is really no answer at all, since they tell Jews that they lack the Holy Spirit to understand Scriptures. Well if Stephen is our exemple, i don’t think Jews need it.
37. ChristianPaul says:

    August 8, 2015 at 11:17 pm

    Thank you David! Peace to all! Why is there no response from Jim or Sharbano and I hope the Rabbi will respond to David.

    ”David said: Please explain if you will, the apparent inconsistencies in the JPS version which is based on the MT if not a scribal error?”

    Forty or four?
    I Kings 4: 26 Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
    II Chronicles 9: 25 Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king at Jerusalem.

    This is very disturbing knowing that Rabbi Mizrahi said that if we find one error in the Tanakh it is the proof that the Scriptures are not inspired for he said that God can not make mistakes.

    I agree that God never makes mistakes but may be He let them to show the Jewish authorities that they should stop spreading lies about the Christian Scriptures. I hope now that we will have a more humble and respectful discussion and may be explore the fact that Orthodox Christianity is the bearer of the Truth and that repentance is now possible especially when the Lord seeing the future foresaw the lies that will emanate from the lack of honesty of those who were suppose to upheld the truth let it go to preserve a corrupt system based on human tradition instead of the true Religion.

    Many Blessings and may truth always prevail!

    Is it 3 or 7 years of famine?
    II Samuel 24:13
    I Chronicles 21:11

    No sons or 5 sons for Michal, or is it Michal or Merab?
    II Samuel 6:23
    II Samuel 21:8

    And while we’re at it:
    Is it Satan or HaShem?
    I Chronicles:21:1
    II Samuel 24:1

    Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 9, 2015 at 1:40 am

      Christian I already responded to David in Supplement to Contra Brown volume IV point #6

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 9, 2015 at 6:51 pm

        Thank you Rabbi!

        I read the entire point and I find it conform to the way Orthodoxy perceived the Holy Text. We will go further. For us Holy Tradition is the mother who gave us Holy Scriptures and the Sacred Oral Tradition is the primary witness who gives authority to the Holy Text.

        I will disagree pertaining to the last paragraphs where you said: ”In the case of Christianity, on the other hand, the exact opposite is true. The Jewish people amongst whom these authors lived remember them in a negative light. Why should we trust these people? What is the justification to exert ourselves to straighten out the confusion that abounds in their writings? Where is the witness that will stand to counterbalance the contradictions found in the gospels?”

        The only differences of the Torah and the Gospel resides in the length of time that permitted to the Torah to be believed without contradiction. The people going against the Torah were destroyed contrary to us where we were persecuted during the centuries prior to the Christianization of the Roman Empire. The negative light came from the Jewish Authority not the people; and the destruction of the Temple and the emergence of Christianity forced them to redefine the Judaism to a new Form post Temple. It is only the Eastern Orthodox Church who kept the divine liturgy of the Second Temple with the transformation of the daily sacrifice in a ‘Eucharistia’ with no animal blood. The holy little-lamb became the holy bread and the cup of salvation and redemption kept its transformative value.

        I encourage you to study our divine liturgy to understand the link between the second temple Judaism and the Eastern Orthodox Christianity. In the mean time many blessings and pray for me a poor sinner!

        Shalom!

        Reply
        • Dina says:

          August 9, 2015 at 7:30 pm

          Does your “Holy Tradition” include the writings of John Chrysostom?

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 11, 2015 at 12:25 pm

            Hi Dina, yes, John Chrysostom is a much beloved Church Father by them. In fact, their “divine” liturgy is called the Liturgy of Chysostom because he played an important part in elaborating it. But even so, they still contradict his teachings: he wrote that prayers to angels are demonic, yet Christian Paul’s Church does it, he wrote that Mary sinned, yet Christian Paul’s Church believe she was sinless.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:27 pm

            Saul “John Chrysostom is a much beloved Church Father by them. In fact, their “divine” liturgy is called the Liturgy of Chysostom because he played an important part in elaborating it”

            Believed father of whom?? which church?? Why are you mixing catholic teachings that were added to their pseudo-Christianity??? They have a holy one upon a holy one, a father upon a father, in whom I have NO interest. In so many churches I visited ( non-catholic, his name was never mentioned” So do not put all weird facts into one sack saying this is what Christians believe! If you are talking from your point of view based on where you previously belonged, then you should veryfy that others do not have to share your former beliefs or experienced teaching.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 11, 2015 at 2:00 pm

            Hi Saul!

            I never prayed to angel. That is a Roman catholic practice! All Orthodox says that Mary inherited like us of the original sin. Therefore all men are sinners. And the just stumbles seven times. Therefore you seem to confuse Roman Catholicism and the Pure Doctrine of the Orthodox Church.

            Do not forget that you were only a mere convert to Orthodoxy at the age of 19 if my memory is correct. Therefore your understanding is corrupt and surely by the fact that you left the Truth you are now more confused than ever. But I forgive you on that basis.

            May the truth always prevail in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 3:42 pm

            Christian If you continue to attack people’s character – I will have to send you the same way that I sent E.L.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 11, 2015 at 3:06 pm

            Hi Christian Paul. How boring is this. You never adress the issue at hand and start rents about irelevant things. What is worst, you are totally wrong on the Orthodox Church. You’re never able to reply something meaningfull.

            “I never prayed to angel. That is a Roman catholic practice! All Orthodox says that Mary inherited like us of the original sin. Therefore all men are sinners. And the just stumbles seven times. Therefore you seem to confuse Roman Catholicism and the Pure Doctrine of the Orthodox Church.”

            What an ignorant you are:

            “O Angel of God, my Holy Guardian, safeguard my life in the fear of Christ the God, set my mind on the right path, and strengthen my soul in the love of God. Guide me that I may receive a great mercy from Christ the God.” http://www.saintgregoryoutreach.org/2010/01/guardian-angel-prayers-for-protection.html

            and:

            ”
            We should pray to our guardian angel daily.

            There is a prayer to the guardian angel in the morning prayers. Each day, we should ask for his assistance. He has been sent by God to help us. Off course, by “pray”, we mean merely that we should ask for help. All help ultimately comes from God, but He enables men and angels to help others according to His will.” http://www.orthodox.net/articles/angels.html

            “Do not forget that you were only a mere convert to Orthodoxy at the age of 19 if my memory is correct. Therefore your understanding is corrupt and surely by the fact that you left the Truth you are now more confused than ever. But I forgive you on that basis.”

            This coming from some westerner on the internet lol. Abraham was a convert, Ruth was a convert etc. Do we know better than them? Really stupid comment on your part. Note also that you do not ever adress the argument presented. Each time i confront you on the Orthodox Church, you run away like a rabbit and try to slander me. Wich is totally irelevant and does not prove i’m wrong.

            So please, now that you have been refuted on the prayers to the angels, you should repent and apologize. You were wrong, and even more, you attacked me personally. Repent and apologize please. I know we are on internet, so you can have a bad mouth without any consequence, but still, you should do it.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 11, 2015 at 3:12 pm

            Ah i forgot your funny thing about Mary:

            “All Orthodox says that Mary inherited like us of the original sin. Therefore all men are sinners. And the just stumbles seven times. ”

            You confuse the immaculate conception with Mary’s sinlesness. If your Church does not believe in the Immaculate conception, your Church does teach that Mary was sinless:

            “I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to.” https://oca.org/questions/saints/sinlessness-of-mary

            Maybe i have a corrupt understanding, but you have a total ignorance, wich is worst.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:37 pm

            Eric,

            I was answering to Dina about the Orthodox Church “Holy Tradition” and view of John Chrysostom. Next time, try to understand the topic and who is adressing what, before coming out in the most idiotic ways. Thank you.

            “They have a holy one upon a holy one, a father upon a father, in whom I have NO interest. In so many churches I visited ( non-catholic, his name was never mentioned” ”

            If you are ignorant of the Eastern Othodox Church, you do not have to share it with me. Just go read about it. If you didn’t notice, the subject was not what you have interest in. In fact, you were not part of the subject at all. So, calm down, read a little bit more before commenting, go read about the Orthodox Church(it was actually the subject), and then come back to me.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 1:53 pm

            Saul, do not boil over, mr “calm”. your anger is so apparent!
            I knew what she meant by the name, as we spoke about it long ago. I have no interest in your comments so do not bother to answer.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:12 pm

            Eric,

            “do not boil over, mr “calm”. your anger is so apparent!”

            Perhaps it’s unintentional, but you come across as very angry in many of your comments. Also, sneering, scornful, as if you think we are unbelievably stupid.

            I know that I come across that way too sometimes. I’m just asking for self-awareness.The Christians on this blog are among the most self-righteous and un-self-aware (and thin-skinned) people I’ve ever met.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:10 pm

            Rabbi Shalom to you!

            If you want to use two scale to judge you can do it. I did not insult no body but went you insult me by saying that I am ridiculous or my words which is the same than it is ok. Also when Saul insults me all around. This is ok! I understand when somebody is speaking thetruth and you can vanquish him you murder him by cutting him from the public place like you did for Yeshua. But Truth always prevail.

            The Master warned us about you when they will persecute you and lie about you but do not think that the disciple is above the his Master. Therefore cut me like you did to Eliyah Lion who also appears to be an Orthodox Christian.

            Cutting me is a glory for me for it is written:

            10
            Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
            for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

            11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5)

            I came in peace and you want war!
            I came with greetings and you insult me!
            I came with blessings and you curse me!
            I came for Truth and you want to cut me off!

            For this I thank you and forgive you in advance and may the truth prevails in all!
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 13, 2015 at 1:32 am

            @Eric,

            You are kind of funny.You went out completely missing the topic at hand, and when i explain it to you, you do not want any reply. All well, next time, read the comments, understand the topic and you won’t have to talk to me.

            And no i’m not angry. I’m only bored by Christian Paul, because he makes false claims, he pretends to teach the Chistian Orthodox truth, but is totally ignorant of the Orthodox CHurch teachings. And EVERYTIME i cornered him, he simply ran away(prayers to the angels, Oecumenical Councils, Canon of Scripture…). Also he has the tendency to talk about my carachter when he can’t reply on the subject. He started from the start: westerner, roman catholic, convert(lol) etc.

            “Also when Saul insults me all around. This is ok! ”

            When did i ever insult you? All i ever did was to reply to you bad internet mouth. But, in the end, the main difference is this; when i claim something i bring some evidence. You never do this. The best you produced was a long wikipedia copy and paste. I called you ignorant? I backed it up. You called me roman catholic, westerner, corrupt etc without backing it up. From what i see, you are someone who enjoys saying things on internet you would not dare in public or face to face. You are boring. Very boring.
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 10, 2015 at 9:27 am

          Christian For you to create this distinction between Jewish authority and the Jewish people is ridiculous – the Jewish authority is a grassroots set-up, it is not a matter of who holds official positions. Your constant repetition of the idea that the idolatrous practices of the eastern Church is somehow a continuation of the Second Temple is also ridiculous – are the eastern clerics circumcised as per Ezekiel 44:9? are they descendants of Aaron as per Numbers 18:19?

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 10, 2015 at 11:49 am

            Hi Rabbi!

            1) You can not understand for Second Temple Judaism was NOT a grassroots set-up. Like during the time of Moses, men were chosen. It was not a democracy! And yes who held positions had authority on the people. Your view is truncated by the new Judaism who is post Temple. Therefore all you can say is a Protestant like view of the reality.

            2) Only the Orthodox Church has the Levite priesthood in action. Plus we understand the nature of the daily sacrifice which you lost the meaning having been during almost 2000 years without practicing. Our Eucharistia is the daily Sacrifice!

            3) You accusation of idolatry is just your opinion based on a very bad reading of Holy Scriptures and a very bad understanding of the Orthodox Church. Just the word Elohim a plural conveys more than what you won’t to accept. Just Genesis 1:26 reveals more than you are willing to believe. Just on that your theology is not developed. That is normal being at the infancy of the Revelation you understand like infants. But can we reproach infants not to comprehend what adults comprehend? Of course no!

            Conclusion you need to grow up as people and life will teach you. I hope for you that you will respect others in the process. For a child who insult his parents is a disgrace in the eyes of God.

            Peace to you and many blessings and may the Truth prevails in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 12:04 pm

            Christian
            I guess the old E.L. is coming back.
            I never said Second Temple Judaism was grassroots – I said that the concept of authority in the community of God’s witnesses is grassroots.
            I asked you if the Eastern Bishops are descendants of Aaron – what is your answer?
            My accusation of idolatry is not “my” accusation it is the testimony of nation that God appointed as His witnesses – according to your “mature” understanding what is it that the Jewish people are authorized to testify about?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 12:07 pm

            Christian
            I addressed your fallacies in these articles
            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/myth-versus-reality/
            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/the-council-of-my-nation/
          • Jim says:

            August 10, 2015 at 12:03 pm

            C. Paul,

            You have multiple times called R’ Blumenthal a “dear witness”. Can you tell me, to what is he witness? To what are the Jewish people witness?

            You say that R’ Blumenthal is an infant. This mere assertion on your part is a mark of your presumption. Your protestations of humility make you look foolish when you declare yourself to be one of adult understanding (through an imaginary and unproven wind) compared to the infants here. This is especially true when you have had to change the topic because you could not propose a sound argument regarding Jesus’ acts, breaking the Sabbath. You attempted to answer, by making a false distinction, but had to give up on that. Lacking all humility, however, you have declared yourself to be correct, despite bringing no evidence of the fact, while belittling your host.

            Jim
      • Paul summers says:

        August 10, 2015 at 8:37 am

        Hello YPF

        Well of course we have spoken about psalm 41 before. The trouble you have with the NT comparing it is very simple.

        David is writing the psalm. David is explaining his experiences etc. In the explanation David experiences betrayal from a close friend, associate etc. This he pens.

        Jesus now in the text is explaining His own betrayal, He is describing his feelings which David felt back then. Its a comparrison.

        A perfect text to use in context is this very verse.

        You assume that becsuse the author used the words from the Psalm, that then it must mean all the Psalm is in context. But its not.

        The Psalm isnt a complete comparison of David And Jesus lives on the whole.

        The two real situations are polar oppersites. Well we dont actually know 100% what the actuall problem is with David, but we can take a intelligence guess he wasnt going to be crucified at the hands of Romans. However his heart is sad about the events taking place.

        A betrayed heart.

        The NT never states that the whole Psalm is of and about the Messiah as a complete rendering of the Psalm. Thats your assumption which is wrong then it throws you off course, and by that you are trying to justify the “”error”” of the NT.

        I have been blogging this problem now for a while. If one reads scripture incorrectly, you will read and find what you want the scriptures to say, to make a point. Unfortunately you will be wrong.

        The antisemites did it, also non believers.

        I hope that answers your question?

        Ps
        I was intrested in your recent comment on the Law, and how one doesnt have to fulfill its requirements(even though Moses did say you must!), anyway, you stated that God sees the heart, and sees ones individually and sees them trying. Can I assume then, that aleast God is seeing you trying to go to the temple at least three time a year. Can you state that you are trying, as you confessed?

        .

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 10, 2015 at 10:07 am

          Paul If the Psalm is not speaking about Jesus but about David then do you agree that it cannot be used to “PROVE” that Jesus is the Messiah? I wrote enough about your other question – suffice it to say that you misunderstand my position

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 10, 2015 at 11:39 am

            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/defeatist-propaganda/
          • Paul summers says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:14 pm

            Hello

            Thats a strange assumed starting point about the psalm. The psalm is written by David not Jesus. Well ok, the psalm is God inspired, as all Texts are, but thats not what im saying contextually here.

            This is why your foundation is not level. Jesus is quoting from the single verse in Pslam 41. Something that David wrote. Like I have been saying on several occasions. Its just a single verse quoted which in comparison is similar. A shared meal with a nown associated person, who now turns and betrays the other.

            Also How can you ask if this verse then disproves Jesus Messianic claim. The only fault with the said “false NT teaching” of the text, is only based on the incorrect view which your argue. The NT here contextually isnt trying to balance Christ claims on this one text. However the author is showing the two similar events. The texts are not trying to prove or disprove. I couldn’t say that this proves my arguments on Jesus claims, because technically it was never meant to.
            Jesus authenticated His Messianic credentials otherways, being betrayed was just a fulfilling of the texts about how and who. Which actually shows more evidence from the Tanach on Jesus claims.

            Who ever said the whole Psalm was about Jesus???? Not me or the authors!! Again its not a complete Messianic psalm, theres probally more in the psalm about David than Christ. Just the one verse which is the one being debated here is the similar event that Jesus also experienced. The sin text is not what is similar!! We know that because the context is eating and betrayal.

            You are reading into something that doesn’t exist.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 6:54 pm

            Paul So you acknowledge that this quotation is not a proof for Jesus’ claims and is not a fulfillment of prophecy?
    • Sharbano says:

      August 9, 2015 at 10:18 am

      You people expect a reply on Shabbat? And then with the invective that you bear the truth and foresaw lies as some kind of justification? Well, what you have done is opened your mouth, so to speak, and inserted your Entire Foot!.
      First of all you are Not reading from a Jewish bible, let alone a Hebrew one.
      In one place it is the counting of stables, the other counts the stalls.
      One gives the length of famine from that present time. The other speaks of the ongoing
      famine of four years plus the additional that may come to pass.
      The 5 daughters were those of Meirav and Michal (my sister) raised them as if they were her own. If I had two biological children, one adopted and 2 foster children I would say I have 5 since I am taking care of 5. Others would say “he has two children”.

      Next time you open your mouth and put your foot in it you should refrain from using that to conjecture a validity of your own belief. We can now say since you used this as a basis we can conclude the opposite, that Your scriptures are the one full of lies and You should be the one who shows the respect.

      Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 9, 2015 at 10:24 am

      Christian,

      You have been running away from my question on oecumenical councils for more than a week now. So you are not in good position to ask why there is no answer on this or that.

      Oecumenical Councils, you talk about them every comment, but you can not answer even one question about them. So please, until you are able to answer my questions, do not talk about a lack of honnesty.

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 9, 2015 at 7:11 pm

        Peace to you Saul!

        Saul I work and I have three children and a wife to take care. I am sorry if I missed something. I usually try to answer everyone who asks me question as a matter of courtesy.

        What about Oecumenical Councils? You know pretty much how it works. Do you have any contention about them. For me it is the equivalent of the Sanhedrin of the Holy City. Actually the mother of all council happened in Acts 15. The Council of Yerusalaim!

        Now concerning the discrepancies in the Tanakh. My point is that some Rabbi here Yosef Mizrahi are very imprudent in their idolization of the Tanakh being without any human error. No humanly work even completely inspired is without any mistake, but this Rabbi said that if we find a mistake in the Tanakh that will mean that it is not from God therefore accusing the Christian Scriptures of being with mistake thus not inspired thinking from ignorance that the Tanakh is without any human errors. We must be very prudent in those manners not to feed the spirit of this ages that decries the Holy Text and accusing us of being without any credibility. To be honest and transparent is the best policy. To hide and try playing games and destroying pious religious people is not the way to elevate your Religion.

        I hope we will have a mutual dialogue based on respect trying to build bridges and tear down the walls of incomprehension, prejudices and denigration. Thank you and may the truth be always accompanied with mercy!

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 11, 2015 at 12:18 pm

          Christian Paul, you are very disapointing. You come out every emotional about your family and work, wich is totally irelevant. You have all the time needed to troll this page and promote your Church with falsehood, but when i ask you one single question you run away. So do not be a hypocrit, if you have time to speak nonsense about the LXX, you also have time to reply something meaningfull about Oecumenical Councils.

          “What about Oecumenical Councils? You know pretty much how it works. Do you have any contention about them. For me it is the equivalent of the Sanhedrin of the Holy City. Actually the mother of all council happened in Acts 15. The Council of Yerusalaim!”

          Sorry but this answer is very stupid Christian. Jerusalem Council is not part of the Oecumenical Councils. And your Sanhedrin thing is also stupid and irelevant.

          So now, i ask you again: What is an oecumencal council? How is it different from a local council? How do you know wich council is oecumenical?

          Please, stop running away from this. You want some understanding? But you don’t even seem to understand what is an oecumenical council in your Church.

          Reply
38. Jim says:

    August 10, 2015 at 2:50 pm

    C. Paul,

    Responding to your comments here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-21691 .

    Obviously your argument could not stand on its own merits, and this is why you have had to resort to making outrageous, unfounded, and despicable claims against the Jewish people. It is beyond my comprehensions that someone would so openly accuse others of altering the Holy Words of HaShem without any shred of proof. This is a most loathsome tactic, you have adopted. Because it is nothing more than another one of your distractions, I thought to ignore it. But, since it is such an easily disproven claim, it will serve to show that your claims lack any merit. They show that you have no knowledge and the authority you attempt to invest in your church is only a fabrication.

    You write that the sign of the virgin birth is “so powerful that Judaism could have completely crumbled if you had not change Virgin to Young Woman to moderate the damaged to your credibility” [sic]. This comment is so blatantly stupid, forgive me for my directness, that I am half inclined to believe you are making a joke, and I am just to dense to realize that you are kidding. What absolute poppycock!

    Surely you realize that it served as a sign unto virtually no one. Mary and Joseph did not publicize the event, according to the Gospels. Elizabeth may have ‘known,’ and I would suppose her husband knew too. Until the claim was made later, after the death of Jesus, virtually few people knew that Mary was a virgin. Just claiming, years after the fact, that one was born of virgin, is not a powerful sign. Even if it happened, since no one could know it, it is not a sign. The whole idea that the Jewish community needed to cover this up is a claim so bizarre, it is hard to believe that anyone would assert such a thing. If it happened, it certainly was not a powerful sign. It was even weaker than the resurrection, as far as signs go.

    (What do I mean, “weaker than the resurrection”? There is no evidence of any virgin birth and it could serve as a sign to no one, just like the resurrection. But, the resurrection was ‘witnessed’ by few people and publicized after the claim could not be investigated. Mary’s virginity was known to even fewer people and not publicized until much later than the event.)

    So, the motivation for altering the scripture that you attribute to the Jewish people exists only in your wind-affected mind.

    But this is not even the most absurd part of your argument. An examination of the passage will show that the Jewish people had no need to alter the text. It shows that Matthew abused the text. There is no good reason to expect a virgin birth from the passage, or that even if there had been, it had nothing to do with the Messiah and took place hundreds of years before Jesus.

    Do you ever wonder why Matthew does not quote the whole prophecy? Isaiah writes about the child eating curds and honey before he matures, because before he matures, the two kings threatening Judah will no longer be a threat. Matthew does not quote that part of the prophecy, because there is no way to apply it to Jesus. The whole point of the prophecy is to assure Judah that they are not about to be vanquished. In a relatively short amount of time, God will deliver them, before this unborn child is old enough to choose the good and avoid the evil. This has nothing to do with Jesus, so obviously that even Matthew cannot find a way to make it work.

    It is Matthew’s style to abuse the words of God. The author is either terribly ignorant or has no respect for the Words of the Most High. This is not the only time he takes a prophecy out-of-context and truncates it to make it appear Christological. He does the same thing with Hosea 11:1. Where Hosea writes about Israel, Matthew leaves out that part of the verse. He takes the part that he can impose a new meaning upon. If you are reading Matthew, and you have no knowledge of Hosea, you can believe that “out of Egpyt I have called my son” is a reference to the Messiah coming back to Israel from Egypt. If you read the verse in context, however, you will readily see that either someone lied to the author of Matthew, or he was himself a liar.

    (Note that I back up my assertion with evidence. I do not just declare myself to be correct by virtue of ‘adulthood’ or a ‘wind’.)

    But Matthew is not content to merely take Isaiah 7:14 out-of-context. No, he has greater violence to practice upon the verse. He actually changes the words. I do not mean “the young woman” to “virgin”. He actually has to change the naming of the child. Isaiah anounces that the mother will name the child Immanuel. This is a big problem. Mary did not name Jesus that. It is clear that he is not the fulfillment of the prophecy. But the author of Matthew, or his source, was not too troubled by this fact. Changing the verse was all that was needed. Matthew writes that “they” shall call his name Emmanuel. It sounds like an appellation, a statement of praise. Now, one need not be troubled that Jesus did not fulfill it.

    You accused the Jewish people of dishonesty. But you did not examine the facts. It was a false accusation, brought about by convenience and necessity. You could not support it. You could only assert it. But here we have clear proof that Matthew tampered with the text. He misrepresented it by removing it from its context. He altered the text, when it was clear that Jesus did not fulfill it. It was your responsibility to examine these facts before hurling lies at your opponents.

    It is unfortunate that the author of Matthew lied to you, or that someone lied to him. But it happened. Turning that around on the Jewish people, and accusing the rabbis of altering a text is dishonest.

    Jim

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 10, 2015 at 4:07 pm

      Thank you Jim!

      Your comment although you claim is back by evidence is pure opinion of your part. Where is your evidence? That the Holy Text were tampered is not an accusing against the Rabbis of today but of those of the past. The proof reside from the dead sea scrolls being different from the Masoreteic text. The Masoreteic text having notable differences. Here is the fact not only your bias opinion:

      “Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew language manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic texts dating to the 10th century CE, such as the Aleppo Codex. Today, the oldest known extant manuscripts of the Masoretic Text date from approximately the 9th century. The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back a full thousand years, to the 2nd century BCE.[118] These Hebrew-language manuscripts containing fragments of the Jewish Bible should not be confused with Greek-language Christian Bible codices, which include the New Testament books and of which the earliest extant manuscripts are the Codex Vaticanus Graecus 1209 and Codex Sinaiticus, both dating from the 4th century CE.

      According to The Oxford Companion to Archaeology:

      The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther, provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around A.D. 100.[119]”

      118: Johannes Van Der Plitch. Radiocarbon dating and the dead sea scrolls: A comment on “REDATING” (PDF). Center for Isotope Research, Groningen University and Faculty of Archaeology, Leiden University.

      119: Fagan, Brian M., and Charlotte Beck, The Oxford Companion to Archeology, entry on the “Dead sea scrolls”, Oxford University Press, 1996.

      Conclusion the actual rabbinic text has been tampered to contra-attack the Christian evident proofs from the Tanakh. There tampering went against a strong commandments from Moses himself saying not to tamperer the Holy Text as if he knew in advance that his disciples will be tempted to do so.

      That said I wish you all the best and may your eyes find again the truth that you abandoned having given confidence to men instead of God.

      Reply
      • Jim says:

        August 10, 2015 at 4:15 pm

        C. Paul,

        You pile absurdity upon absurdity. Not one of your quotes shows that an earlier text of Isaiah 7:14 contained the word “virgin” instead of “young woman”. You have not supported your charge at all. I hope that one day you learn the definition of the word “relevant”.

        Jim

        Reply
      • yourphariseefriend says:

        August 10, 2015 at 5:04 pm

        Christian The Qumran manuscripts contained about 220 copies of various Biblical books – some of these are mere fragments while others are complete books. A full 60 % of these were proto Masoretic. another 20 percent were uniquely Qumran – and these also showed a Masoretic basis another 5 percent were Samaritan type which also show a Masoretic basis. 10 percent were unaligned while only 5 percent were proto Septuagint. To say on the basis of the Qumran discoveries that Masoretic text is somehow less ancient than Septuagint text is simply false I got this information from Lawrence Schiffman’s book – Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls also none of this has to do with “tampering” with the texts

        Reply
39. Yehuda Yisrael says:

    August 10, 2015 at 4:19 pm

    ChristianPaul,

    I will now demonstrate to you how the “virgin birth” that matthew speaks of is a lie”Isaiah never made such a prophesy!
    The birth of Isaiah”s child was clearly the fulfillment of the sign prophesied in Isaiah 7:14-16. How do I know this? Isaiah tells us himself! Lets look at these verses

    Isaiah 7:14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

    Isaiah 7:15. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good.

    Isaiah 7:16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned.”

    Keep verse 16 in mind. It is crucial to the context of Isaiah. Now, lets look at the next chapter of Isaiah and see what he has to say:

    Isaiah 8:3. And I was intimate with the prophetess, and she conceived, and she bore a son, and the Lord said to me, “Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

    Isaiah 8:4. For, when the lad does not yet know to call, “Father” and “mother,” the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria.”

    Well what do you know! Isaiah said a young woman would give birth to a child and in the very next chapter his wife has a son! Prophesy fulfilled! The interesting thing about it is that Isaiah explicitly says he was intimate with her. This means that this “alma” described in Isaiah 7:14 is Isaiah”s wife. Morever, she is not a virgin! Thus, the word “alma” does not exclusively refer to women who are virgins! Isaiah says it himself!

    And if you are still not convinced, here”s a direct statement from Isaiah saying his sons are signs:

    Isaiah 8:18. Behold, I and the children whom the Lord gave me for signs and for tokens in Israel, from the Lord of Hosts, Who dwells on Mount Zion.

    The natural birth of Isaiah”s son was the fulfillment of the sign of Isaiah 7:14, namely that his wife would give birth to a son, and that before he knew the difference between good and evil/father and mother, “the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria.”And if you are going to whine that Isaiah”s son was not called “Immanuel directly,” I will kindly point out to you that your yeshua was never called “Immanuel” by his mother either, so you would be setting a double standard, as Isaiah states that the mother of this child will call him “Immanuel.”

    And just to delve into the idea behind “Immanuel” a bit more, II Chronicles 32:7-8 describes the events which occurred concerning the king of Assyria, during the reign of King Hezekiah, the son of King Ahaz:

    II Chronicles 32:7. “Be strong and of good courage; do not fear and do not be dismayed because of the KING OF ASSYRIA and because of all the multitude that is with him, because *HE WHO IS WITH US is greater than those with him.*

    II Chronicles 32:8. With him is an arm of flesh, and WITH US IS THE LORD OUR G-D to help us and to wage our wars,” and the people relied on the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah.

    So lets put it all together: The birth of Isaiah’s son was a sign for King Ahaz that the two kings who he dreaded would be destroyed by the king of Assyria. By after the king of Assyria defeated these kings, King Hezekiah (Ahaz’s son) assured his kingdom that G-d WAS WITH THEM. Since King Hezekiah and Isaiah’s son both lived during the same time as well, it is safe to conclude that the birth of Isaiah’s son can be linked to King Hezekiah’s understanding that G-D WAS WITH THEM, even though Assyria appeared to be a threat. Remember, this prophesy was TIME SENSITIVE and involved the two kingdoms being destroyed by the king of Assyria. This is how Isaiah’s son is considered Immanuel. It’s all linked together within the time frame.

    If you are going to argue that this is a “dual fulfillment” regarding Matthew”s application of this to the supposed virgin birth of yeshua, you will have to concede that the word “alma” does not exclusively refer to a virgin, as I have demonstrated above. This shows lack of exclusivity to the nature of the word “alma” and demystifies the “yeshua believer’s” obsession with the birth needing to be “miraculous” in order to see fulfillment.

    In other words, Isaiah 7:14 has just as much to do with the birth of yeshua as it does the birth of Karl Marx, or Jerry Seinfeld, assuming a “multiplicity of fulfillments” theory”

    Or perhaps my birth! I was born of a woman! Maybe Isaiah 7:14 is about me!

    See how ridiculous it is to attribute this prophesy to yeshua?

    Reply
40. Yehuda Yisrael says:

    August 10, 2015 at 4:23 pm

    ChristianPaul,

    Are you aware that there is a passage which actually describes an ADULTEROUS ALMA in the Tanach?! I used to use this argument as well, but I found that christians didn’t have the attention span to comprehend the argument. Lets see if you’re any different…

    Proverbs 30:18 There are three things which are too wonderful for me, for which I do not understand:

    Proverbs 30:19the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’almah][/b’almah].

    Proverbs 30:20 This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

    In the above three verses, King Solomon compares a man with an alma to three other things: an eagle in the sky, a serpent on a rock, and a ship in the sea.

    What do these four things all have in common?

    They leave no trace.

    After the eagle has flown across the sky, it is impossible to determine whether an eagle had ever flown through that airspace. Once a snake has slithered over a rock, there is no way to discern that the snake had ever crossed there (as opposed to a snake slithering over sand or grass, where it leaves a trail). After a ship passes through the sea, the wake behind it comes together and settles behind it, leaving no way to discern that a ship had ever moved through this body of water.

    Similarly, King Solomon declares that once a man has been sexually intimate with an almah, i.e. a young woman, no trace of sexual intercourse is visible, unlike a virgin who will leave behind a discharge of blood after her hymen is broken.

    Therefore, in the following verse (Proverbs 30:20) King Solomon explains that once this adulterous woman “eats” (a metaphor for her fornication), she removes the trace of her sexual infidelity, “wipes her mouth, and says, ‘I have done no wrong.’” The word alma clearly does not mean a virgin.

    In the same way that in the English language the words “young woman” does not indicate sexual purity, in the Hebrew languagethere is no relationship between the words almah and virgin. On the contrary, it is usually a young woman who bears children. The word alma only conveys age/gender. Had Isaiah wished to speak about a virgin, he would have used the word betulah1 (בְּתוּלָה) not almah. The word betulah appears frequently in the Jewish Scriptures, and is the only word – in both biblical and modern Hebrew – that conveys sexual purity.

    Moreover, as mentioned earlier, the masculine form of the noun עַלְמָה (alma) is עֶלֶם (elem), which means a “young man,” not a male virgin. This word appears twice in the Jewish Scriptures (I Samuel 17:56, 20:22). As expected, without exception, all Christian Bibles correctly translate עֶלֶם as a “young man,” “lad,” or “stripling,” never “virgin.” Why does theKing James Version of the Bible translate the masculine Hebrew noun לָעֶלֶם (la’elem) as “to the young man” in I Samuel 20:22, and yet the feminine form of the same Hebrew noun הָעַלְמָה as “a virgin” in Isaiah 7:14? The answer is Christian Bibles had no need to mistranslate I Samuel 20:22 because this verse was not misquoted in the New Testament.

    Deuteronomy 22 explains how we determine whether or not an adulterous woman is lying…

    Deut. 22:13. If a man takes a wife, is intimate with her and despises her,

    Deut. 22:14. and he makes libelous charges against her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I took this woman, and when I came to her, I did not find any evidence of virginity for her.”

    (By the way, the Hebrew word for “virginity” in this verse is “Betulim.” The word “alma” is no where to be found here.)

    Deut. 22:15. Then the girl’s father and her mother shall obtain evidence of the girl’s virginity, and take it out to the elders of the city, to the gate.

    (Once again, the Hebrew word for “virginity” in this verse is “betulay.” The word alma is no where to be found, again!)

    Deut. 22:16. And the girl’s father shall say to the elders, “I gave my daughter to this man as a wife, and he despised her;

    Deut. 22:17. And behold, he made libelous charges, saying, ‘I did not find evidence of your daughter’s virginity.’ But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity!’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city.

    (Once again, betulim/betulay are the words used here for “virginity.” The word alma is no where to be found…)

    Deut. 22:18. Then, the elders of that city shall take the man and chasten him.

    Deut 22:19. And they shall fine him one hundred [shekels of] silver because he defamed a virgin of Israel, and he give it to the girl’s father. And she shall be his wife; he shall not send her away all the days of his life.

    (Once again, the Hebrew word for “virgin” in this verse is not alma…It is “betulat”…)

    I think you get the idea…

    The fact is, this passage speaks EXPLICITLY about virginity and EVERY TIME THE WORD “VIRGIN” IS MENTIONED IN THE PASSAGE, IT IS TRANSLATED AS “BETULAH.”

    The word “alma” is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN THIS PASSAGE THAT DEALS EXPLICITLY ABOUT VIRGINITY!

    Here we see that the manner in which the virginity was determined in the case of a libel made against her by her husband was through whether or not her hymen was intact. If she broke her hymen before her first sexual encounter, then the elders of the city are to display the “tokens of her virginity” which refers to the broken hymen on a garment, as Deut 22:17 states.

    Deut 22:17. And behold, he made libelous charges, saying, ‘I did not find evidence of your daughter’s virginity.’ But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity!’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city.

    So we understand in the Biblical context of King Solomon’s time, the way we determined whether or not a woman was lying or not about her virginity was through whether or not her hymen was intact, and if it wasn’t, her family was to show evidence of her virginity by displaying her broken hymen on a garment.

    So now that you see the context of all of this, we know that King Solomon’s lack of “understanding” concerning “the way of a man with a woman,” we can determine that he is clearly using Proverbs 30:20 to describe the alma described in Proverbs 30:19. Clearly, this is an adulterous alma, and King Solomon would have no way of determining whether or not she committed adultery if she were to lie about it. If a married woman had relations with another man outside of her marriage and then kept it a secret from her husband, he would never come to understand that his wife was an adulterous, as her hymen had already been broken before the adultery took place!

    Clearly, this is an example of an adulterous alma, and no Septuagint is going to save you from this fact…

    Your jesus is a false messiah/deity.

    Shalom

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 10, 2015 at 5:39 pm

      Hi Yehudah!

      The Septuagint an older version than your 9th century AD confirms the word Virgin. The Septuagint written before Christianity has no motive to tamper with the Holy Text. Here is the simple proof. If we find the word Virgin in the Septuagint than you theory crumbles, Also it will be a direct evidence that the Rabbis tampered with the Holy Text.

      Therefore let us look at the Greek now:

      14διὰ τοῦτο δώσει κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Εμμανουηλ

      If you knew Ancient Greek you will see that the Septuagint uses the word :

      παρθένος which mean Virgin therefore we have a confirmation that the Masoreitic text is tampered and unreliable. That is a smash against your lies and the lies perpetrated to contra-attack the power of Christianity which is the power of Truth.

      παρθένος:
      I.a maid, maiden, virgin, girl, Hom., etc.
      2.Παρθένος, as a name of Athena at Athens, of Artemis, etc.
      II.as adj. maiden, virgin, chaste, πάρθενον ψυχὴν ἔχων Eur.: metaph., π. πηγή Aesch.; παρθένοι τριήρεις maiden, i. e. new, ships, Ar.

      Conclusion the Matthew Gospel says the Truth through the ages and the Masoreitic text has been tampered.

      Peace to you!

      P.S.: I will never respect and believe liars and those who dare to tamper with the Holy Text to prove their points. The demonstration made above is just one example why the fathers of the Church where so virulent against the Jewish leaders. They feel that it is ok to lie and tampered the text to achieve one goal here to contra-attack against the truth of Christianity.

      Reply
      • Saul Goodman says:

        August 10, 2015 at 7:35 pm

        “That is a smash against your lies and the lies perpetrated to contra-attack the power of Christianity which is the power of Truth.”

        This is so childish. Friend, you should calm down.

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 12, 2015 at 4:12 pm

          Christian Paul sounds a lot like Eli Lion

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:00 pm

            Concerned Reader There is no question that they are one and the same person
41. Yehuda Yisrael says:

    August 10, 2015 at 5:46 pm

    ChristianPaul,

    Cncerning the Septuagint, your contention that “parthenos does mean virgin” is incorrect. The Greek word Παρθένου (parthenos) can mean either a young woman or a virgin. Therrefore, Παρθένου can be found in the Septuagint to describe a woman who is clearly not a virgin. For example, in Genesis 34:2-4, Shechem raped Dinah, the daughter of the patriarch Jacob, yet the Septuagint refers to her as a parthenos after she had been defiled. The Bible reports that after Shechem had violated her, “his heart desired Dinah, and he loved the damsel (Septuagint parthenos) and he spoke tenderly to the damsel (Septuagint parthenos).” Clearly, Dinah was not a virgin after having been raped, and yet she was referred to as a parthenos, the very same word the Septuagint used to translate the Hebrew word alma in Isaiah 7:14, which makes it all the more ironic that you would make such an argument concerning Dinah and the word “alma”…

    Moreover, the Septuagint in our hands is not a Jewish document, but rather a Christian recension. The original Septuagint, translated some 2,200 years ago by 72 Jewish scholars, was a Greek translation of the Five Books of Moses alone, and is no longer in our hands. It therefore did not contain the Books of the Prophets or Writings of the Hebrew Bible such as Isaiah, from which you asserted Matthew quoted. The Septuagint as we have it today, which includes the Prophets and Writings as well, is a product of the Church, not the Jewish people. In fact, the Septuagint remains the official Old Testament of the Greek Orthodox Church, and the manuscripts that consist of our Septuagint today date to the third century C.E. The fact that additional books known as the Apocrypha, which are uniquely sacred to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church, are found in the Septuagint should raise a red flag to those inquiring into the Jewishness of the Septuagint.

    And like I said before, this “alma/betulah” debate is a strawman argument. Isaiah himself tells us that his wife gave birth to a son who fulfilled the sign mentioned in Isaiah 7:14. Why else would he mention the birth of his own son in the very next chapter in Isaiah 8:3-4?! Just for fun? Like I said, put Isaiah 8:3-4 side by side by Isaiah 7:15-16 and you won’t be able to deny the connection. And Isaiah 8:18 seals the deal, where Isaiah explicitly states that his children are SIGNS! That includes his child born in Isaiah 8:3-4!

    It is your word against Isaiah’s, and no Septuagint is going to change that!

    Shalom

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 10, 2015 at 7:44 pm

      Shalom to you Yehuda!

      Your argument does not hold. For in the Septuagint which is prior to the Christian Era with no agenda, Geneisis 34 employs two words to characterize Dina:

      παρθένον which mean a virgin Genesis 34:3
      in certain context it means unmarried woman. This is here the case.

      παρθένος , Lacon. παρσένος Ar.Lys.1263 (lyr.). ἡ,
      A.maiden, girl, Il.22.127, etc. ; αἱ ἄθλιαι π. ἐμαί my unhappy girls, S.OT1462, cf. Ar.Eq.1302 ; also “γυνὴ παρθένος” Hes. Th.514; π. κόρα, of the Sphinx, dub. in E.Ph.1730 (lyr.); θυγάτηρ π. X.Cyr.4.6.9 ; of Persephone, E. Hel.1342 (lyr.), cf. S.Fr.804; virgin, opp. γυνή, Id.Tr.148, Theoc.27.65.
      2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Il.2.514, Pi.P.3.34, S.Tr.1219, Ar.Nu.530.
      3. Παρθένος, ἡ, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens, Paus.5.11.10, 10.34.8 (hence of an Att. coin bearing her head, E.Fr.675); of Artemis, E.Hipp.17 ; of the Tauric Iphigenia, Hdt.4.103 ; of an unnamed goddess, SIG46.3 (Halic., v B.C.), IG12.108.48,54 (Neapolis in Thrace); αἱ ἱεραὶ π., of the Vestal Virgins, D.H.1.69, Plu.2.89e, etc. ; αἱ Ἑστιάδες π. Id.Cic.19; simply, αἱ π. D.H.2.66.
      4. the constellation Virgo, Eudox. ap. Hipparch. 1.2.5, Arat.97, etc.
      5. = κόρη 111, pupil, X.ap.Longin.4.4, Aret. SD1.7.
      II. as Adj., maiden, chaste, “παρθένον ψυχὴν ἔχων” E.Hipp. 1006, cf. Porph. Marc.33 ; μίτρη π. Epigr.Gr.319 : metaph., “π. πηγή” A.Pers.613.
      III. as masc., παρθένος, ὁ, unmarried man, Apoc.14.4.
      IV. π. γῆ Samian earth (cf. “παρθένιος” 111), PMag.Berol.2.57.

      γυναῖκα which mean a woman in Genesis 34:4

      I.a woman, Lat. femina, opp. to man, Hom., etc.; with a second Subst., γυνὴ ταμίη housekeeper, δέσποινα γ., δμωαὶ γυναῖκες, etc., id=Hom.:—in voc. often as a term of respect, mistress, lady, Theocr.:— πρὸς γυναικός like a woman, Aesch.
      II.a wife, spouse, opp. to παρθένος, Hom., Xen.
      III.a mortal woman, opp to a goddess, Hom.

      (Ancient Greek Dictionary source Perseus)

      Isaiah 7:14 is clearly a prophecy and when Partenos is there employed the context clearly confirms the power of the sign that a Virgin will conceive the Immanuel. Yeshua was the Immanuel for indeed He is God with us. That is the full deployment of the Revelation of Sinai accomplished in the Messiah who is God with us. His name is a Title which bear the Reality. Hopefully one day you will grow to see the fullness of the Revelation of the One God of Israel.

      Many Blessings!

      Reply
      • Yehuda Yisrael says:

        August 10, 2015 at 7:48 pm

        ChristianPaul,

        Cncerning the Septuagint, your contention that “parthenos does mean virgin” is incorrect. The Greek word Παρθένου (parthenos) can mean either a young woman or a virgin. Therrefore, Παρθένου can be found in the Septuagint to describe a woman who is clearly not a virgin. For example, in Genesis 34:2-4, Shechem raped Dinah, the daughter of the patriarch Jacob, yet the Septuagint refers to her as a parthenos after she had been defiled. The Bible reports that after Shechem had violated her, “his heart desired Dinah, and he loved the damsel (Septuagint parthenos) and he spoke tenderly to the damsel (Septuagint parthenos).” Clearly, Dinah was not a virgin after having been raped, and yet she was referred to as a parthenos, the very same word the Septuagint used to translate the Hebrew word alma in Isaiah 7:14, which makes it all the more ironic that you would make such an argument concerning Dinah and the word “alma”…

        Moreover, the Septuagint in our hands is not a Jewish document, but rather a Christian recension. The original Septuagint, translated some 2,200 years ago by 72 Jewish scholars, was a Greek translation of the Five Books of Moses alone, and is no longer in our hands. It therefore did not contain the Books of the Prophets or Writings of the Hebrew Bible such as Isaiah, from which you asserted Matthew quoted. The Septuagint as we have it today, which includes the Prophets and Writings as well, is a product of the Church, not the Jewish people. In fact, the Septuagint remains the official Old Testament of the Greek Orthodox Church, and the manuscripts that consist of our Septuagint today date to the third century C.E. The fact that additional books known as the Apocrypha, which are uniquely sacred to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church, are found in the Septuagint should raise a red flag to those inquiring into the Jewishness of the Septuagint.

        And like I said before, this “alma/betulah” debate is a strawman argument. Isaiah himself tells us that his wife gave birth to a son who fulfilled the sign mentioned in Isaiah 7:14. Why else would he mention the birth of his own son in the very next chapter in Isaiah 8:3-4?! Just for fun? Like I said, put Isaiah 8:3-4 side by side by Isaiah 7:15-16 and you won’t be able to deny the connection. And Isaiah 8:18 seals the deal, where Isaiah explicitly states that his children are SIGNS! That includes his child born in Isaiah 8:3-4!

        It is your word against Isaiah’s, and no Septuagint is going to change that!

        Shalom

        Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        August 10, 2015 at 9:25 pm

        If you read in the Septuagint it will tell you there were several versions written in the 2nd and 3rd century CE.

        Reply
42. Yehuda Yisrael says:

    August 10, 2015 at 7:49 pm

    ChristianPaul, I will continue to post my refutation of your position if you continue to ignore what I said in my post. 🙂

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 11, 2015 at 8:22 am

      Shalom to you Yehuda!

      What is troubling with your position is that you decide what is the meaning of a Greek word out of the blue like if you were the authority of the Greek tongue. Stop the madness! Greeks and Orthodox Christians know the meaning of PARTENOS. I have provided two Ancient Greek dictionary references about the word Partenos and still you stubbornly contradict them. How can have any credibility after that? Here is my references:

      παρθένος 1 (PARTENOS)
      I.a maid, maiden, virgin, girl, Hom., etc.
      2.Παρθένος, as a name of Athena at Athens, of Artemis, etc.
      II.as adj. maiden, virgin, chaste, πάρθενον ψυχὴν ἔχων Eur.: metaph., π. πηγή Aesch.; παρθένοι τριήρεις maiden, i. e. new, ships, Ar.
      III.as masc., παρθένος, an unmarried man, NTest.

      and other

      παρθένος (PARTENOS), Lacon. παρσένος Ar.Lys.1263 (lyr.). ἡ,
      A.maiden, girl, Il.22.127, etc. ; αἱ ἄθλιαι π. ἐμαί my unhappy girls, S.OT1462, cf. Ar.Eq.1302 ; also “γυνὴ παρθένος” Hes. Th.514; π. κόρα, of the Sphinx, dub. in E.Ph.1730 (lyr.); θυγάτηρ π. X.Cyr.4.6.9 ; of Persephone, E. Hel.1342 (lyr.), cf. S.Fr.804; virgin, opp. γυνή, Id.Tr.148, Theoc.27.65.
      2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Il.2.514, Pi.P.3.34, S.Tr.1219, Ar.Nu.530.
      3. Παρθένος, ἡ, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens, Paus.5.11.10, 10.34.8 (hence of an Att. coin bearing her head, E.Fr.675); of Artemis, E.Hipp.17 ; of the Tauric Iphigenia, Hdt.4.103 ; of an unnamed goddess, SIG46.3 (Halic., v B.C.), IG12.108.48,54 (Neapolis in Thrace); αἱ ἱεραὶ π., of the Vestal Virgins, D.H.1.69, Plu.2.89e, etc. ; αἱ Ἑστιάδες π. Id.Cic.19; simply, αἱ π. D.H.2.66.
      4. the constellation Virgo, Eudox. ap. Hipparch. 1.2.5, Arat.97, etc.
      5. = κόρη 111, pupil, X.ap.Longin.4.4, Aret. SD1.7.
      II. as Adj., maiden, chaste, “παρθένον ψυχὴν ἔχων” E.Hipp. 1006, cf. Porph. Marc.33 ; μίτρη π. Epigr.Gr.319 : metaph., “π. πηγή” A.Pers.613.
      III. as masc., παρθένος, ὁ, unmarried man, Apoc.14.4.
      IV. π. γῆ Samian earth (cf. “παρθένιος” 111), PMag.Berol.2.57.

      Now where do you young woman here? Conclusion is very obvious, the tampering of the text by the rabbi in the Masoreitic version of the Bible is very troubling for it is reactionary to the strong arguments of Christianity that could not be defeated unless you tamper the text.

      14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

      Here the sign is a sign for it is unusual and given by God Himself. A simple young woman pregnant is not a sign but normality. It becomes a sign when she is extraordinary and that now is being recognized by all the Monotheistic Religions (Christianity and Islam) but denied only by the post-Temple Judaic Religion.

      Many blessings to all and may the truth prevail in all!

      Reply
      • yourphariseefriend says:

        August 11, 2015 at 9:09 am

        Christian Yehuda fully answered your arguments it is you who is being stubborn He provided evidence for the meaning of the Greek word and he demonstrated how the discussion about the translation is irrelevant respond to what he is saying don’t just repeat yourself

        Reply
        • ChristianPaul says:

          August 11, 2015 at 10:20 am

          Shalom Rabbi!

          I do not find his argument valid. Where is the evidence for the Greek word when it goes contrary to the meaning and works of those who created the Greek words. I have cited multiple uses of this word by ancient famous Greek authors and Yehuda comes saying that this word means that. That is not an argument but a denial of truth. I hope we are here to seek the truth not to mask it! Thank you!

          Many blessings and may the Truth prevails in all!

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 11:38 am

            Christian Yehuda showed how the writers of the Septuagint used the word. He also showed how even if the word would mean “virgin” it would do nothing to help the cause of Christianity because Isaiah was speaking of an event that took place years before your idol walked the earth
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 11, 2015 at 1:34 pm

            Rabbi Peace to you!

            1)Yehuda did not show how the writers of the Septuagint used the word Partenos, he only showed how he himself translates it in English.

            2)You did not address therefore the important discrepancy between the Septuagint (pre-Christ Scriptures no agenda) and the Masoreitic text (post-Christ text controlled by the post-temple rabbinic leaders).

            3)The interpretation of Yehuda of Isaiah is just an interpretation that does not see the prophetic interpretation.

            4) Yehuda also said: “Moreover, the Septuagint in our hands is not a Jewish document, but rather a Christian recension.”

            “Modern scholarship holds that the LXX was translated and composed over the course of the 3rd through 1st centuries BC(E), beginning with the Torah.

            The oldest witnesses to the LXX include 2nd century BC fragments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (Rahlfs nos. 801, 819, and 957), and 1st century BC fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the Minor Prophets (Rahlfs nos. 802, 803, 805, 848, 942, and 943). Relatively complete manuscripts of the LXX include the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century AD/CE and the Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century. These are indeed the oldest surviving nearly-complete manuscripts of the Old Testament in any language; the oldest extant complete Hebrew texts date much later, from around 1000.

            The sources of the many differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic text have long been debated by scholars. One extreme view was that the Septuagint provides a reasonably accurate record of an early Semitic textual variant, now lost, that differed from the Masoretic text. The other extreme, favored by Jewish religious scholars, was that the differences were primarily due to intentional or accidental corruption of the Septuagint since its original translation from the Masoretic text. Modern scholars follow a path between these two views. The discovery of many fragments in the Dead Sea scrolls that agree with the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic proved that many of the variants in Greek were also present in early Semitic editions.

            On the other hand, there were known episodes of Jewish revisions and recensions in both Greek and Semitic dialects, the most famous of which include those by Aquila (AD 128), a student of Rabbi Akiva. Origin (235), and other early Church fathers discussed the differences and attempted to preserve the original reading of the Greek. Origen a Christian theologian in Alexandria completed a comprehensive synopsis of each ancient version side-by-side, but his work is now almost completely lost.

            …

            Jewish attitudes toward translations of their scriptures developed with time. By the 2nd century BC, it was often necessary for the readings in the synagogues to be interpreted in Babylonian Aramaic, producing the need for the targumim, though one Talmud writer forbids their use except for foreigners. A later Talmudic injunction by Rabbi Simon ben Gamaliel said that Greek was the only language into which the Torah could be accurately translated. The Septuagint found widespread use in the Hellenistic world, even in Jerusalem, which had become a rather cosmopolitan city and associated with many vibrant Jewish communities. Both Philo and Josephus show the influence of the Greek version in their citations of Jewish scripture.

            Several factors finally led most Jews to abandon the Greek, including the fact that Greek scribes were not subject to Jewish technical rules of scribal interpretation; that Christians favoured the LXX; and the gradual decline of the Greek language among Jews after most of them fled from the Greek-speaking Roman Empire into the Aramaic-speaking Persian Empire when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Instead, Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts compiled by the Masoretes, or authoritative Aramaic translations such as that of Onkelos, of Rabbi Yonasan ben Uziel, and Targum Yerushalmi, were preferred. The LXX translation began to lose official sanction after differences between it and the Hebrew scriptures were discovered. This contributed to the growing renunciation of Hellenization among Jews. All these factors combined and the Jewish people adopted the Masoretic text, except for works such as the Maccabees.

            Ethiopian Jews are the only Jewish community today who still accept the Septuagint (minus Ecclesiasticus).”

            Source: http://www.bibliahebraica.com/the_texts/septuagint.htm

            Many blessings and may the truth always prevail!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 3:34 pm

            Christian Yehuda showed how the Greek writers of the Septuagint used the Greek word in question were the meaning is clearly not a “virgin” this being the case there is no discrepancy – As I pointed out to you – the Masoretic text was finally redacted in the 10th century but it was the dominant text-type DURING the Second Temple era. Yehuda’s interpretation of Isaiah is a simple reading of the words – yours and Matthew’s is a violation of the words Please don’t cut and paste from other sources – either paraphrase their writings or provide the link
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 11, 2015 at 4:58 pm

            Shalom Rabbi!

            The Masoreitic text was compiled by a group of scribes Karaite Jews who gave us the notation of voyels in the Tanakh. Those Karaites Jews do not suscribe to the Rabbinic view of things. Can you explain?

            https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/benAsher.html

            Also for the long quote pardon me I should have let only the link. Thank you!

            Also the Septuagint renders the word Virgin which necessarily can only accomplished if the sign is proclaimed and accepted by countless witnesses. The virgin of Achaz is unknown! The Virgin Mary is well known around the globe even by her enemies, thus a prophetic sign. The voice of the People has spoken testimony to the validity of the claim. Our Muslim brothers also recognize the Virgin birth. Now dear Rabbi why the Jewish Rabbis do not? That is the question!

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 5:58 pm

            Christian The Masoretic text only underwent a final redaction in the 10th century but it existed long before that – please get that straight so I don’t have to continue repeating myself Now tell me – who actually knew that Mary was a virgin? How did she demonstrate it and to who?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 12, 2015 at 1:33 pm

            Hi Rabbi! You asked : “who actually knew that Mary was a virgin? How did she demonstrate it and to who?”

            Before for the record yesterday I was blocked from replying. I did not understand why? For no reason or justification was communicated to me. Did I say something that touch a cord? When you do that type of censure like some infamous persons in history it only proves the point of those being censured.

            Now concerning Maryam if you read what I wrote you would have an answer. How can you explain that the Muslim all of them believe that Maryam is a Virgin? Does it sound strange that the Coran recognizes the Virginity of Maryam? Why do they believe the testimony of Christians? And how Christians themselves believe or know it?

            The answer is equivalent to the revelation of Sinai: why 12 tribes of Israel believe the Torah when we know that the final canons of Jewish Scriptures were finalized centuries after the event of Sinai took place? Answering that question will answer mine.

            Shalom to you and I forgive you for the injustice you made yesterday. Many blessings and thank you!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:04 pm

            Christian The computer blocks certain comments for reasons that I am not in control of. But if I block you I am doing no one an injustice. There is a comment policy in place for this blog and you have violated every detail of it. If you have the truth people would be flocking to your blog – why do you need to come to mine to sell your miserable wares? You did not answer my question about the alleged virginity of a girl who lived a long time ago. You asked me how the Moslems know – that is a fantastic question – I guess the answer would be the same way they know that the angel Gabriel spoke to Mohammad. Your comparison to Sinai is ridiculous – that was an event witnessed by an entire nation this is something that only a gynecologist would really know – and may I remind you that gynecologists weren’t very pervasive 2000 years ago
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 4:56 pm

            Hey Christian Paul who lied about not posting as Eli Lion,

            You refused to tell me what your native tongue is but I know it is French because of your usage of English words in earlier comments:

            1. You used the word gross for the word fat, which is not how English speakers use the word. Gros/grosse is French for fat (masculine/feminine).

            2. You used the word infants to tell us that we are the infants who should listen to you, the grown-up. An English speaker would have used the word children. You must have confused the French word enfants which means children with the English word infants which means babies.

            3. In this comment you spelled Koran or Qur’an the French way, Coran.

            You did not want to tell me your native tongue because coincidentally it’s the same as Eli Lion’s. You keep exhorting us to be honest. I suggest you take a good, long, hard look in the mirror.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:08 pm

            “I didn’t cheat on you, I promise. It was the Holy Spirit,” Mary tells Joseph.

            We say, really? Prove it.
          • Jim says:

            August 12, 2015 at 2:21 pm

            C. Paul,

            It is clear that you do not understand what terms like “proof” and “demonstration” mean. Nor are you able to differentiate properly between knowledge and belief.

            If someone asks you “who actually knew Mary was a virgin? How did she demonstrate it and to who?” it is not an answer to say that Muslims believe it. She did not show them. They do not know it; they believe it. It is their opinion, not knowledge.

            Asking your question is silly: “How can you explain that the Muslim all of them believe that Maryam is a Virgin?” You attempt to dodge the burden of proof by putting it on R’ Blumenthal’s shoulders. But he does not have to explain why some people believe it. You and I both know that they do not believe it from experience.

            In fact, many people believe many different things, not because they have experienced them. Are you going to run off and become a Mormon? Surely you know that many people believe that Joseph Smith was given golden plates by the Angel Moroni. Or are you going to become a Buddhist? Surely you know that many people believe that Siddhartha Guatama achieved Nirvana. Do you believe that aliens visit us frequently? Surely you know that many people believe we have alien visitations. How can you explain that, if they have had no proof?

            Moreover, I do not believe you mean to do so, but you imply that Muslims have the correct understanding of the world. If we are to follow them in this, then surely we are to follow them in all things. You have just made them the standard for analyzing the truth. If you are to appeal to their “knowledge” of the virgin birth, then you will also have to accept their belief in Muhammad. You will have to abandon the Christian sect which you follow now. You will have to stop worshiping a man as if he were a god. But if you hold that they are wrong in some things, then they may also be wrong in the virgin birth.

            Moreover, Christians do not know it. They believe it. And they believe it with absolutely no evidence. In fact, the outright fabrications of the NT so clearly prove its falsity that the belief of the Church is irrelevant.

            Christianity is perhaps the most easily religion to prove false. It bases itself, it says, on Tanach. But it fabrications and misrepresentations are there on the page. The ignorance of Torah in the non-Jewish world made them susceptible to believe the inaccuracies of the NT. Even ignorant Jews got caught up with Christianity. But among those that know Torah, among the learned, among those dedicated to God, very few converted to Christianity. It is obvious why. The misrepresentations of the NT only appear as truth to those who do not know better. But one who knows Hosea is not fooled by Matthew’s trickery. One who knows the Psalms does not succumb to Paul’s abuse of the sentence: “There is none righteous, no not one.” To one who knows Jeremiah, he is not taken in by the way Hebrews rewrites the prophet. The only reason the Christian believes the religion so easy to disprove is because he does not have the background to resist NT falsehoods.

            Jim
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:49 pm

            Shalom to you Rabbi!

            Show me where I have infringe your rules and I will acknowledge it I did not insult nobody but when you insult me by saying that I am ridiculous or my words which is the same than it is ok. Also when Saul insults me all around. This is ok! Two scale balance are anti-Torah you should know that! You must be impartial in your judgment or you will favor a partisan of yours instead,,,

            I have no blog and all that I have belongs to my Lord and God. I am just a servant testifying to the truth. I am a witness of the Resurrection and this is no wares like you want to insult again. You are allow to shout profanities but us when we counter your falsehood for the sake of those poor souls that believe your false-testimony this is not ok.

            Let us just debate and see the last man standing. I am not afraid of you and your cabala. Your false Judaism has been uncovered by our fathers in the Faith and in Orthodoxy we know your manipulation of the truth to preserve your false Judaism. That being said I bless you and wish all the best and hopefully one day you will see the truth.

            May the truth prevail in all!

            P.S.: The case of Maryam is the force of truth proclaim her bless throughout the generations like she prophesied it well before that happen:

            The Song of Mary

            46 And Mary said:

            “My soul magnifies the Lord,
            47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
            48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
            For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
            49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
            And holy is His name.
            50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
            From generation to generation.
            51 He has shown strength with His arm;
            He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
            52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
            And exalted the lowly.
            53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
            And the rich He has sent away empty.
            54 He has helped His servant Israel,
            In remembrance of His mercy,
            55 As He spoke to our fathers,
            To Abraham and to his seed forever.” (Luke1 NKJV)
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 4:58 pm

            Christian You could just say I have nothing to say – you didn’t need t say it in so many words
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 12, 2015 at 4:36 pm

            Hi Rabbi shalom!

            “Moses commanded a law for us,
            A heritage of the congregation of Jacob.” (Deut.33)

            I wrote point 1:: Christianity is the inheritors of Scriptures and Orthodox Christianity is the inheritors of the Judaism of the Second Temple era

            Now for you to know the congregation of Jacob is the Holy Church. You take it as a blood line issue. But if blood was the criteria than Middle Eastern Christian would be much closer in the blood line to Jacob than German Jews or other white Caucasian Jews.

            Therefore it is the Faith that gives us the real blood line to the tribes. Only those who commune to the cup of Salvation are Israel! The rest is pure non-sense! Even you admit to it when you say the Israel is those who are Jewish. That is your view. And the Holy Church view is the real view for She has authority to judge what is right and conform to the truth for She is the bearer of the truth.

            May the truth prevail in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:02 pm

            Christian So do you believe that the Church is the “congregation of Jacob”? Then where is the sign of the Sabbath as per Exodus 31:16?
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:22 pm

            More assertion.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 6:04 pm

            Your new persona is no different than you previous “order of Eliyah”.
            Now your belief is that being replacement theology. Where do you find that G_D says that the heritage of Jacob is “based upon a belief”. What G_D DOES say is; it is to Abraham and all your seed from then on. Your belief is making a liar out of G-d, which He specifically states otherwise. Therefore your “authority”, your “holy church” is nonsense.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:37 pm

            Rabbi Shalom to you!

            Exodus 31:16:
            16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

            Yes we do! Shabbat is a day of rest and worship and we worship on Vaskreceniye (Resurrection) day the true Shabbat.

            How can you prove that your Shabbat is the Shabbat? Did you know when was the first day of Creation? Do you really believe that God created in human days?

            Your understanding obviously is like the protestant fundamentalist understanding everything in a literal manner.

            Now for the true Shabbat: the Resurrection day of the Messiah is the real seventh day for it starts our day of rest from this changing and corrupt world. Your rules for the Shabbat are for tribal people and full of men made observance.

            In Shabbat your not supposed to lift anything. But obviously when you eat your food your just lifted your food to your mouth.
            In Shabbat your not suppose to cut, but you practice Circumcision which is a cut.
            In Shabbat you not suppose to light a fire thus you can not turn the light on Shabbat but you can open your door and ask a stranger to open it for you making more work for everybody than if you just turn it on.

            This is not the true Religion but men made scruples to appear righteous. The true righteousness is to obey God in all things pertaining to justice, mercy and love for God and all men.

            Many blessings and may the truth shine upon you!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 6:34 pm

            According to YOU, “order of Eliyah”, G-d didn’t really mean what He said. Go ahead and pick any day you want.
            Okay, we’ll just make it “resurrection day”. Nobody told us to do it, but heck, we like that day because it’s important to US. Since we made up our Own day we’ll just ignore any laws regarding that “old-fashioned” day. Since jsus cleansed us from any sin we don’t have to worry about all those incidentals. Besides we don’t want to take things too literally, you know, like all those ancient old tribal things people used to do. No, we are the modern civilized ones who have no need for all those silly little rituals. Those were for primitive man, and, you know, they couldn’t understand much back then anyway, and, by the way, we have achieved enlightenment.

            Does that about cover it, eh?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:50 pm

            Christian Your idol followed our definition of the Sabbath and our day of the Sabbath – take it up with him
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 12:49 am

            Rabbi Peace!

            Some places you said that Yeshua did not follow Shabbat and now you say He followed.
            Now after his Resurrection does He still follow Shabbat? Actually He is in the Shabbat of the Heavens opened by His Resurrection, therefore the Shabbat that we follow is the Shabbat of the day of the Lord in whom we rest in the Peace of the Kingdom!

            Actually the Lord Yeshua is the Lord of Shabbat being the author of Torah. Also in the full sense He is our perpetual and universal Shabbat for his children rest in Him.

            Many blessings and may the Truth prevails in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 6:33 am

            Christian When he was alive he agreed that God commanded the Sabbath on the seventh day – if you say that he now attempts to change it then you admit that he has a problem with God’s holy and perfect law – why would you follow such a man?
      • Sharbano says:

        August 11, 2015 at 1:10 pm

        Are you saying it HAS to mean virgin and you cite the Greek dictionary.
        One of those dictionary references is:
        “2. of unmarried women who are not virgins”
        According to this it confirms what Yehuda was saying.

        Reply
        • ChristianPaul says:

          August 11, 2015 at 1:48 pm

          Hi Sharbano!

          No! Yehuda said a young woman which is not a correct translation. In the case of Dina in Genesis the translation could be unmarried woman after having been dishonored by a son of Sechem.

          But in the case of Isaiah 7:14 the correct translation is Virgin as translated by all the Bible except the Jewish translation that obviously can not accept it for it would shock the way they perceived Maryam. We like all the Muslims and all the Monotheistic Religion (Abrahamic) believe that Maryam is a Virgin. But Jewish rabbis says that she is a the contrary which for us blaspheme the holiness of Maryam who served in the Second Temple as a pure Virgin and betrothed to Yosef son of David. She was the Ark of the New Covenant prepared to receive the living Torah who will emerge from her womb to give the living Torah to Israel and to the world.

          Do you see the difference? Now if Maryam was a virgin in the Jewish religion than you would intellectually be force to believe that Yehsua is the Son of God. Therefore Isaiah 7:14 is a killer for unbelief unless you tamper the text in order to refuse to recognize the One Revelation given to the Jews.

          Peace to you and may the truth prevail in all!

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 11, 2015 at 3:41 pm

            Christian This is amazing – so you admit that the Greek word doesn’t necessarily mean “virgin” – so what’s your issue? The text cannot be talking about Miriam because it has to be a sign for Achaz who lived and died centuries before Miriam was born
43. Concerned Reader says:

    August 11, 2015 at 2:03 pm

    Christian Paul, even if the prophet in Isaiah 7:14 did say Parthenos, and somehow meant virgin, this still wouldn’t be grounds for a messianic prophecy in the plain meaning of the text. We know that the child referenced in Isaiah 7:14 is referenced again in chapter 8, because that’s the immediate reference of a fulfillment in Isaiah’s own time. We also know the verse reads present tense “the young lady is pregnant.” The question of virginity then is actually somewhat irrelevant because Isaiah’s words had meaning in his own time, and We are told quite plainly that the messiah will be from the tribe of Judah. Let me explain.

    To comply with Torah law, messiah needs a biological human father, like every other tribal member of the people. The Torah has no precedents given for “adoption” into kingship or priesthood, both offices are based on preserved father to son blood lineage. The New Testament itself even goes to the trouble of showing how Jesus is related to his supposed father Joseph, only to say Joseph isn’t the real father. The authors of Mathew and Luke knew how important lineage was.

    (don’t bother with the genealogy of Mary theory because Africanus didn’t know about it, and he’s the earliest Christian source to attempt to reconcile the genealogies. He plainly says they both refer to Joseph, as does the text itself.)

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 11, 2015 at 2:41 pm

      Hi Con! Peace to you!

      Actually the verb conceive in Isaiah 7:14 is in the future:

      New International Version
      Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

      New Living Translation
      All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God is with us’).

      English Standard Version
      Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

      New American Standard Bible
      “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

      King James Bible
      Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

      Plus the Septuagint translation into the English:
      Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.

      Finally the Septuagint in Greek Original employs the verb: ἕξει which is in the future third person indicative means will bear or carry or bring. Interesting verb rendering our later use of the word Theotokos ‘bearer of God’ as the ark bear (carry) the Torah.

      Concerning the genealogy of Yeshua, it is not relevant to this topic. If you want to discuss it later. Tell me that will make a good debate in the search of the truth.

      Many blessings!

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        August 11, 2015 at 2:52 pm

        I’ll just make a quick comment. It is rather fascinating that Xtians are So enamored with a “Greek” text considering it was the Greeks who attempted to destroy Judaism by mixing it with paganism. And the band played on..

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 11, 2015 at 3:17 pm

          I don’t even think Christian Paul is an Orthodox Christian, since he does not even know wich prayers are recited during the Liturgy. Maybe he discovered for himself a Christian Orthodox affiliation or support, but i don’t think he really is. He does not know the basics: Oecumenical Councils, Mary’s sinlesness, Canons of Scripture, Prayers to Angels, etc.

          Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        August 11, 2015 at 3:13 pm

        Christian Paul, the prophecy is Isaiah 7:14, to the end of chapter 7, and into chapter 8 in historical context. The “sign” is the desolation of the land of the two kings, not the child’s birth. The child is only a cursory part of the sign, just as the sign children are in chapter 8. You are picking one part of a verse, one part of a prophetic message that already perfectly fits chapter 8, and are applying some kind of double fulfillment to Jesus. Its not sound exegesis.

        Reply
      • yourphariseefriend says:

        August 11, 2015 at 3:43 pm

        Christain The Hebrew word “hara” can refer to both future and present and I don’t give a hang what the Septuagint says

        Reply
        • Paul summers says:

          August 12, 2015 at 8:45 am

          Paul So you acknowledge that this quotation is not a proof for Jesus’ claims and is not a fulfillment of prophecy?

          Hello

          Are you asking does this one and one text only proves Jesus claims??

          Your reasoning I think is slightly confused. If for example a person saw and believed by faith that Jesus was the Messiah, lets use simion in Luke. He saw the baby and even then he declared that he had seen enough from God that this child was the Christ. Now simion obviously hadnt seen by this stage any miracles, heard any teachings etc etc. However he did know and believe through revelation of truth that this child was from whom the Tanach spoke.

          Now throughout the rest of the NT Jesus spoke, performed this that and another etc etc. Some saw and believed, some saw and disbelieved, some saw and thought nothing more about it.

          Doing what Jesus did and various stages, didnt prove or disprove His claims. I say that because Jesus didnt have to prove anything to anyone. He showed, and authenticated His words and works. But He never proved.
          Its up to the person to believe by faith and faith alone.

          You are asking does this fulfil prophecy. The psalm doesn’t indicate that the Messiah will be completely like david and his life. Nobody then OT, would have said Messiah will be betrayed by a meal betrayal. However at the time of Christ at the meal, the psalm could be read and reflected upon, then that part of the psalm makes sense. Because now it has happened again.

          All Tanach prophecy was completed at various stages, plus the future which is still to happen.

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 9:11 am

            Paul Do you acknowledge that just because someone claims that he is the Messiah that this is not a reason to believe him? Furthermore – do you recognize that we are not allowed to believe him if he doesn’t conform to the predictions of God’s prophets?
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 12, 2015 at 2:49 pm

            Jesus didnt have to prove anything to anyone.

            WRONG! If Jesus claimed to be the messiah of the Torah, then he must prove that he is the messiah by doing what the Torah says the messiah must do. Just like Moses was only truly accepted by Israel after he took them out of Egypt to Sinai, and Joseph only accepted by his brothers after revealing himself to them, so it is with the messiah.

            How could Jesus be accepted by all Israel right now today as messiah? Let him Come back and finish the job of the redemption of Israel by restoring the kingdom, just like Moses had done. Quit expecting people’s acceptance of a messiah for a job that EVERYONE AGREES ISN’T FINISHED YET. There is no new temple in Jerusalem, Sin and death have NOT ceased among human beings, every tom dick and harry claims falsely to be a prophet, and polytheism is alive and well. This is clearly not the era of peace spoken by the prophets.

            If a Christian says, “its because man doesn’t recognize he is sinful before G-d and repent,” I would ask you, isn’t it the case that Christians have been set free from sin and death? Don’t Christians acknowledge their sin? But wait, do Christians still sin and die? YES THEY DO! One look at the history of visible Christendom and its fruit will tell you that while there is some godliness, there is immense sinfulness. (WE DON’T CARE ABOUT INVISIBLE GODLINESS BY INVISIBLE CHRISTIANS AND NEITHER DOES THE TORAH.)

            Where Jesus is the pudding? Moses delivered pudding without expecting unconditional trust, why haven’t you? Moses himself even expected Israel’s doubts in advance. Better yet, Moses proved himself by completing the redemption.
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:04 pm

            CR, I wonder whom you classify as ‘INVISIBLE CHRISTIANS’ ABOUT WHOM YOU DO NOT CARE?
            You know the world is going to get worse and worse with time ( Revelation and gospels) Will you call all them Christians and THEIR bad example? You judge by religion, but religion is not the same what following God. religion is a man’s made category where to assign your beliefs which not necessary have to go along with your devotion to God.
            “Moses proved himself by completing the redemption.”
            He didn’t even make it. he died and many on the way too. But if you want to call it ‘redemption’ call it as you want to. Redemption accomplished by Jesus will be proven to you at your resurrection which will show you whether there is something to hold you back in death or not.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:37 pm

            Hi Eric,

            You quoted Con: “Moses proved himself by completing the redemption.”

            Then you wrote: “He didn’t even make it. he died and many on the way too. But if you want to call it ‘redemption’ call it as you want to.”

            Are you saying that Moses failed to redeem the Jewish people because he died? Where does that put Jesus?

            Besides, what nonsense is this? Moses led the Jewish people out of bondage and to the greatest freedom of all, the freedom to receive God’s precious Torah and the freedom to serve Him and Him alone. If being redeemed from bondage is not redemption, what is?
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:05 pm

            Paul,

            “However at the time of Christ at the meal, the psalm could be read and reflected upon, then that part of the psalm makes sense. Because now it has happened again.”

            The very definition of circular reasoning.

            “Its up to the person to believe by faith and faith alone.”

            Then why spend any time at all trying to prove your case?

            Also, what kind of standard is that? Do you think God expects us to reject the common sense He gave us and which your faith recoils from?
        • Dina says:

          August 12, 2015 at 9:17 am

          Rabbi, I believe you got this wrong but in a good way. “Harah” could be past or present. “Tahar” is future. So that only strengthens your argument. Please correct me if I am wrong.

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:00 am

            Dina In Judges 13:5 it seems to be used as future
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 11:38 am

            Thanks, I stand corrected. I guess this must be יוצא מן הכלל.
        • Paul summers says:

          August 12, 2015 at 12:54 pm

          Paul Do you acknowledge that just because someone claims that he is the Messiah that this is not a reason to believe him? Furthermore – do you recognize that we are not allowed to believe him if he doesn’t conform to the predictions of God’s prophets?

          Hello

          Absolutely of course.

          Reply
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 2:27 pm

            Paul So if you agree that in order to accept a Messianic claim – we can’t just take it on faith – so on what basis should anyone have accepted Jesus’ Messianic claim?
          • Paul summers says:

            August 12, 2015 at 3:28 pm

            yourphariseefriend says:
            August 12, 2015 at 2:27 pm
            Paul So if you agree that in order to accept a Messianic claim – we can’t just take it on faith – so on what basis should anyone have accepted Jesus’ Messianic claim?

            Hello

            Im not sure what you have just read, but its not what I wrote. And Im not sure it was your original question????

            Could be crossed wires?

            The whole point of teaching from the entire scriptures, OT NT, is based on faith by The Word Of God. The authentication that I was speaking of is the means.If one had true full faith in the God of Israel then through the means (eg miracles), then one would come to salvation through faith, by grace.
            Simion didnt see miracles, but he was faithful, waiting for the apperance of the Christ. He saw Him and believed, because he had the Hebrew texts.
            Of course miracles, wonders alone are not authentication that the sign is heaven sent. However with, then, Tanach teaching, and Jesus words and signs etc, all aligned together will reveal the true heart of a person.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 12, 2015 at 4:07 pm

            Paul So which Hebrew texts did Simon read that helped him to accept Jesus’ claims?
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 5:19 pm

            Paul, you wrote that people come to Jesus by faith alone. Now you wrote, “However with, then, Tanach teaching, and Jesus words and signs etc, all aligned together etc.” That’s a contradiction. If Tanach teaching must align with faith in Jesus, then we can use reason to discover if faith in Jesus is warranted.
      • Concerned Reader says:

        August 11, 2015 at 8:36 pm

        Off course Jesus’ genealogy is relevant to the question CP, what a ridiculous thing to say! You base your faith just on the virgin birth? Either Jesus is a descendant of David, or he’s not, it’s far from irrelevant. You can’t be son of David if you aren’t related.

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 11, 2015 at 9:26 pm

          About this i have a question. After conversion, when i’ll be a Jew, and my father was Jewish, will i be son of David?

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 11, 2015 at 9:30 pm

            Ah confusion, sorry. I meant will i inherit the tribal statute on account of my Father after conversion?
44. Jim says:

    August 12, 2015 at 10:50 am

    Eric, Christian, and Paul,

    All three of you, if I recall correctly, have at some point during this thread tried to attribute motives to those of us who “reject Jesus”. You say it is because we hate Jesus. You say it is because we are self-righteous and arrogant. On another thread, a Christian told R’ Blumenthal that the reason he does not believe in Jesus is because R’ Blumenthal is a god unto himself, making R’ Blumenthal to be autolatrous. Clearly all of you believe that you are justified in such behavior, and I do not wish to write about how it is rude and insulting. Instead, I would like to write about the danger this poses to yourselves.

    When you ascribe motives to another, you stop hearing their argument. In essence, you have said that you do not need to listen to others, because they all have motives for why they do not agree with you. Seldom, however, do our arguments rest on something so childish as, “I just don’t want to believe!” Generally speaking, our arguments rest on facts and reason (which is not to say that yours do not.) Because we are bringing facts and reason, it is of no use to you to attribute motives to us. It only blinds you to the strength of our arguments, and its weaknesses too.

    But the real problem is that when you do this, you devalue us and you destroy conversation. You are saying to us that we must listen to you, but you have no need to listen to us. Such comments put an end to all conversation. Any conversation requires two sets of open ears, but by attributing motives to us, you have stoppered yours. You have declared yourselves the teachers and us the students. One of you has called R’ Blumenthal intransigent. I believe the exact word was “unteachable.” Is this commenter teachable? Does it even occur to him to ask the question.

    In these heated exchanges, I understand that sometimes uncivil remarks slip in. I take no offense when one of you calls me “insane”. (Though I do find myself confused by such a comment.) However, when you tell me or any of your other opponents that we just hate Jesus, you are telling us that this is not a conversation. We had best listen to you, but reciprocity is not to be expected. This undermines conversation altogether.

    Jim

    Reply
45. Jim says:

    August 12, 2015 at 11:44 am

    To those Christians who find it outrageous to consider that the Jewish people have a special understanding of Torah,

    One of you, David I believe, misrepresented the Jewish position on this matter. He made the Jewish position out to be one of racial superiority. This misrepresentation is egregious and serves only to malign others, but David feels like this is justified. He believes he is only fighting fire with fire, and that is his business. I am only interested in the facts, here. In a moment, I will show why this mischaracterization, besides being ugly, is false.

    But first, let me mention that at least one other of you has protested the idea that the Jewish people are particularly well suited to read Torah. Eric was quite incensed with the idea that he would need to go to the Jewish people to understand Torah. He does not like the idea that he would have to rely upon someone else to understand the Word of God.

    I can understand Eric’s feelings, but they must be put aside. We must only consider the facts. Examining them will give us all the reason in the world to look to the Jewish people for our understanding of Torah and the whole of Tanach.

    First, let us state the exceedingly obvious. Torah is written in Hebrew. It is in a language with which most of us are not familiar. And for those of us who do know Hebrew, from where did that understanding come? It came from the Jewish people, those who do know Hebrew. One of the Church fathers, his name is escaping me right now, studies with rabbis to make his translation of Torah. He could not read the original text on its own.

    Most people recognize that a translation is not the same thing as the original writing. Meaning is lost. Sometimes languages do not even share concepts. Translations are rough approximations. One who reads a translation can get an idea of what Torah teaches but will miss nuances and, sometimes, larger ideas. Sometimes the prophets made puns that are not apparent in translations.

    Moreover, as we all know, Torah is not vowelized. The non-Hebrew speaking world relies on the Jews to tell them how the words should be pronounced, which can alter the meaning at times. Without the Jew to guide us, even once we learn Hebrew, Torah will not be clear to us. We rely upon the Jewish people.

    It is not only the language, however, that makes us reliant upon the Jewish people, not at all. We rely upon them for context as well. The book is part of their history and culture. They understand its terms and meanings, not just as bits of vocabulary, but contextually. The prophets rely upon this understanding, referencing fasts, for example, that are not mentioned in Torah. Only the Jewish people, whose fasts these were, understand the reference, and those who have learned from the Jewish people.

    Nowhere is this more evident than in the understanding of the shema. The Jewish people were given this Torah with the idea that there is none beside God. They were instructed on how to worship Him. It is a part of their heritage. Later, people who were not part of the culture, who were not part of the tradition, reinterpreted the shema. They made God three instead of one, because the concepts of Torah were foreign to them.

    But they must acknowledge, that the Jewish people were appointed, according to Torah, to be God’s witnesses. They were to be a kingdom of priests. It is upon the knowledge of the Jewish people, regarding Torah, which we must rely. The Christians who adopted the Hebrew Scriptures recognize that the Jewish people were given the prophets and appointed to keep the knowledge of God alive in the world.

    Now, David wants to pretend this is a racial argument for his own reasons. But it is not. Clearly, it is not just any Jew who is qualified to teach Torah. Unfortunately, many Jews did not study Torah, did not practice it, nor cling to it. Some have abandoned it. We cannot turn to these to teach us Torah. It is not their genetic structure that makes them teachers of Torah. Those who separated themselves from it clearly cannot teach it. Those who have gone after other gods have disqualified themselves from being Torah instructors. Those who never learned it, whose parents abandoned it and did not pass its knowledge along, do not have the proper qualifications just because they descend from Abraham. (And in fact, one can attach himself to the Jewish people, though never born to it.)

    We must not be afraid to recognize our limitations. God has given the world a great gift in the Jewish people. He gave them Torah and made them our teachers. Let us not be afraid to come to them to learn. Without them, we know that we could not decipher one page of Torah. But with them, we may learn how to serve our God. Blessed is HaShem who gave us the Jewish people, so that we might know His ways.

    Jim

    Reply
    • Dina says:

      August 12, 2015 at 11:58 am

      Thank you, Jim.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        August 12, 2015 at 3:04 pm

        It was Jerome Jim who learned Hebrew for his translation, Aphrahat the persian also may have had contact with some rabbis, because he is familiar with certain aggadic tales. Aquinas is somewhat familiar with Rambam, etc. I’ve always found it interesting that while the Christian world has a genre of literature devoted exclusively to discrediting and bashing Judaism and books like Talmud, the Jewish people have still been willing to teach us things (ABOUT the Torah, and even about OUR OWN BOOKS) which we did not perceive. That’s friendship that the Church did not deserve, but it received it.

        Reply
        • Jim says:

          August 12, 2015 at 3:14 pm

          Con,

          Thank you, and it is a good point that the Jewish people have been quite generous with their time and knowledge. It is sad that some have considered them the enemy of humanity when they have extended such friendship.

          Jim

          Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 13, 2015 at 1:07 pm

          In fact, Justin Martyr and John Chrysostom accused Jews of corrupting the “Old Testament” to hide prophecies about Jesus.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 2:13 pm

            Hi Saul!

            If they said it being to major Church fathers, we should not wonder why some passage like Isaiah 7:14 and others might have been tampered to counter the growing treat of Christianity.

            That is very plausible especially with the new research done with the dead sea Scrolls which predate the Masoreitic text and show major discrepancies on certain passage of Torah where the Septuagint seems more in line with the dead sea Scrolls.

            The Jewish text has always been tightly controlled which can be a double hedge sword. If the keepers are honest than the text is pure and not corrupt. But if the keepers have an agenda then tampering it can be done. Contrary to Christianity where we have more than 5000 copies of the Gospels with slight differences proving the validity and the honesty of those who copy it.

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!.
          • Dina says:

            August 13, 2015 at 4:23 pm

            Christian, or Lion, or whatever, you keep saying that the rabbis tampered with the text to say young woman instead of virgin because it’s so powerful that all of Judaism would otherwise crumble. So please explain why the Great Isaiah Scroll from the DDS which predates Christianity by 100 years uses the word almah which means young woman. 100 years before Christianity “the rabbis” would have seen no threat from Christianity and therefore would have had no reason to tamper with the text.

            This is an unsubstantiated and vicious charge that is just wishful thinking on your part and on the part of Christians who do not want to accept what the original Hebrew really says. Either substantiate your statement with cold, hard facts or be a man and retract it.

            I’m not holding my breath.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:27 pm

            Even if Isaiah would have used virgin it is still quite unequivocally clear that there is a child spoken of in Isaiah’s time. He says to Ahaz; two kings YOU dread. We MUST conclude, and without question there would HAVE to be TWO VIRGIN BIRTHS. Furthermore, if this IS future then WHO are the TWO KINGS Jsus feared and were abandoned.
            Therefore, no matter HOW a person looks at it he would have to be a complete idiot to think this is about Jsus and even MORE idiotic that Jews would have had to tamper with this text.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 13, 2015 at 3:13 pm

            Hi Christian,

            John Chrysostom said it not with Isaiah 7:14 in mind, but about “he shall be called a nazarene”. Now, wether Isaiah 7:14 or “he shall be called a Nazarene”, the DSS agree with the Hebrew Tanakh and not with the New Testament/ So unless you bring a proof, your point is meaningless. I’ll also add it means you believe you do not have an authentic Old Testament. Is it the teachng of the Orthodox Church? That you have a corrupt Old Testament?
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 4:51 pm

            Hi Dina Peace to you!

            I went see the text online. That is not apparent what is written there. Their translation is based on a present version of your Tanakh! Here is the link go see for your self.

            http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#7:14

            Double click many times to go see the Hebrew not what they translated. And I ask you can you find honestly there the word almah?

            Thank you in advance and may the truth prevail in all!
          • Dina says:

            August 13, 2015 at 6:53 pm

            Hi Christian P.,

            If you zoom in you can indeed see the word almah if you know how to read Hebrew. Can you honestly say that you see the word besulah there? Now be a man and apologize for your slander of the Jews tampering with their sacred text.
          • Jim says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:09 pm

            C. Paul,

            In the DSS link you provided, if you click on Isaiah 7:14 and zoom in “haalmah” appears on the bottom of the scroll, furthest word to the right.

            Jim
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 13, 2015 at 6:17 pm

            Both Chrysostom and Justin also mention Torah observant followers of Jesus in a negative light, (Chrysostom complained about gentile Christians attending synagogue,) although Justin says, “I commune with theses people” unlike others in his time.
      • Paul summers says:

        August 13, 2015 at 8:58 am

        Hello Dina

        You are a tease!!

        Its not a contradiction, but im sure you are hoping that it is??

        The bottom line of it all has to built on the rock of faith. The word faith and its application is central and paramount with man and God. That im sure you are aware off?? I hope?????

        Johns opening statement of his gospel is very clear that the; WORD, GOD, and the WORD THAT BECAME FLESH are God and Jesus are ONE.

        Also when Jesus speakes about the rich man and the beggar in Abrahams Bosom, you will see that at the end of the passage the rich man asks if he can return to life and tell his brothers about sheol, and warn them about the consequences, God says, “they have the books of Moses and they still dont believe, why will they believe if one is ressurected back to life”

        Because Jesus taught very clearly that; a, He and His father are one, denying Jesus is denying God, that is ultimately there is no faith.

        In other words, Rejecting Jesus is rejecting the Tanach and God, because there is no faith.
        So to answer your reply, you cannot have faith in Judaism proper if Christ Jesus us not central to that persons life.

        When I said alignment with the word etc, its not pivotal that one needs to know Torah or Tanach complete. I was using that statement about verification of Jesus words with scripture, which if read you can see the truth. You dont have to be a theologian to see Christ though. Contextually I was speaking about the Jews then, having scripture to see, but of course that still applies today.

        The gospel message is for all of mankind, at any level.

        When I became a believer in Christ I wasnt looking or arguing scripture. Somebody simply told me that Christ Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for all my sins. He said I was a sinner, but forgiven through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, king of The Jews. He told me I was redeemed, fom all my past, present and future sins, through the sacrificial lamb of God, His Son.

        I believed truly in what Jesus had done for me. That was exercising faith.

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 13, 2015 at 9:32 am

          Paul Were you aware at the time that if the claims about Jesus are untrue then by accepting them you rebel against God? were you aware that as God’s creation you have a responsibility to check out these claims carefully and deliberately?

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 13, 2015 at 2:10 pm

            Hello

            Thanks. But to be honest, Im fine. Ive just told Jim, its impossible to have a un revelation of truth.

            I would urge you though to read the Tanach again. Yourself being a Jew, a child of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the responsibility is greater for you. Im only here talking to you because of your rejection of Messiah. Thats my acceptance into the promises of the covenants.

            Try to reason with that?!

            Shalom.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 4:39 pm

            Paul Why are you talking with us? We believe that God wants man to follow the sensitivity to truth that God breathed into our nostrils and the into the nostrils of every human being (Job 32:8)– you ridicule this way of life – so talk to people who believe like you that they ought to follow what they feel to be true (Mormons – for example)
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:18 pm

            Let’s speak about responsibility Paul. I have said this before; Xtianity and its method of acceptance absolves a person of ANY responsibility. To you, what does Xtianity require of a person when he becomes a “believer”. Is he required to make amends for any wrongdoing. Or, are sinful acts against others also washed away.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 2:44 pm

            Shalom Rabbi!

            Think about it Rabbi, Paul is very intelligent! Why would he leaves the promise for him to enter the New Covenant given to the Gentiles. To a Messianic Jew you might have some grip but to a Gentile he would be foolish to abandon the promise of the Kingdom to be left with nothing. For He is not a Jew by blood. He would be left with nothing. That is called a steal!

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 7:16 pm

            Christian A Gentile can be one of the saintly ones and one of the fearers of God that David speaks of in his Psalms. The Scripture says that God is close to ALL who call upon Him in truth – not just to Jews
          • Jim says:

            August 13, 2015 at 4:01 pm

            C. Paul,

            You are mistaken. A non-Jew is not left with nothing. He is also made in the image of God.

            Jim
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 4:27 pm

            Jim Peace!

            A non-Jew has nothing! Why He is out for sure of the Mosaic Covenant. And you you chose to be left of the New Covenant.

            Buddhist are they made in the image of God? Hindus also? And on?

            What is to be in the image of God. Can God have an image? Is it not forbidden to have images in the Torah? Obviously this must be understood properly in the Son of God who is the Image of God the Father. It is in his image that we become sons to those who believe for it is written in the glorious Gospel of John:

            11 He came to His own,and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

            Therefore you risk reward evaluation is very very weak. Being a Jew I would understand very much why they resist for they are attached to Moses and they way of understanding Torah and therefore are still under the Law but for you a Gentile it is foolish to lose all that to please Jewish persons who have been led astray for centuries.

            All choices have consequences, think about it for you and your children. You can not especially for Gentiles to miss the boat. The outcome is very serious! Hopefully the voice of reason will open the door to the voice of faith. But be certain that those who abort the Christ in them by Apostasy will not share in the world to come. It is very clear! Please think about it my duty is to remind you of this! No coercion here but just persuasion hopefully you will resist the voice of the satan who want you with him in the underworld.

            “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 10)

            Many blessings in the hope that will repent and ask forgiveness for your Apostasy!
          • Jim says:

            August 14, 2015 at 11:26 am

            C. Paul,

            You ask whether or not Buddhists are made in the image of God, “Hindus also”, “[a]nd on”. I should be surprised at this question, but I am less surprised than I would have expected.

            In fact, if you pay attention carefully to Torah, or in fact at all, it does not require much in the way of care, it tells you that humanity was made in the image of God. See Genesis 1:26. It is not only the Jew who is made in the image of God, nor those from your particular sect of Christianity.

            Every human being is precious, regardless of his religious errors. This is the reason given for the prohibition to murder: “Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person’s blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind” (Genesis 9:6). Or do you think that you may murder a Buddhist or a Hindu? Do you deny that they are in the image of God?

            In fact, God loves all people. Some do earn for themselves death. But God makes clear that He does not delight in the death of the wicked. He wishes, instead, that they turn from their wickedness and live. (See Ezekiel 18). Is this not clear from Jonah? God sent Jonah to the people of Nineveh, idolaters, with word that God was going to destroy them in forty days. This was a call to repentance, and it worked. The people repented and God relented. Now, if it is as you imply, that God has no concern for them, He would just destroy them. But as Jonah says, God is “merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and ready to relent from punishing” (4:2).

            It is true that Israel is God’s first-born son. That does not leave the rest of us in the cold. It implies that we are also his sons. The Jewish people have a special relationship with God and also greater responsibility. They are a light to the nations. They are a kingdom of priests. And if they are priests, they have a role to play to benefit the non-Jewish world. They are here to show the beauty and truth of serving God. They are to instruct us in their ways. You have acknowledged that they are witnesses, and so they are. They testify to the One God, beside Whom there is no other. They carry this light and testimony to the benefit of the non-Jew. They are a blessing to us.

            The creation of Israel is a sign of God’s great love for the world. Solomon, when dedicating the Temple, prayed that if a non-Jew should hear about the good things going on in Israel and pray toward the Temple, that God would hear their prayer (I Kings 8:41-43). He hoped that by this the nations would know God and fear Him “as do your people Israel”. In the future, the nations will stream to Jerusalem to learn the ways of God. And they will be at peace.

            It is clear that God has concern for the non-Jew. Torah does not claim that only the Jew is made in the image of God. Nor does it say that one who follows idols is no longer in God’s image. The Hindu must repent. He does himself a great wrong by bowing down to false gods. But he is still a special creation of the Creator. He is still in the image of God.

            You have asked a good question. What does it mean to be made in the image of God? But you have jumped to hasty conclusions. Torah says nothing about the “Son of God”. This Christian invention does violence to the text and leads you to denigrate both Torah and your fellow human being. Whatever it means to be made in the image of God, we see from Torah that all human beings are made in the image of God, and they have intrinsic value. We see that God has concern for all human beings, not Israel only.

            Jim
        • Sharbano says:

          August 13, 2015 at 9:59 am

          What is Your definition of faith. Does G-d have faith?

          Reply
          • LarryB says:

            August 13, 2015 at 10:12 am

            Sharbano
            To you, is faith before belief or after? Christians say faith is necessary. I do not pray because I have faith in God, I pray because I believe in him, and he will answer as he will. I do not study the torah because I have faith in its teachings. I study because I believe its gods word. I have heard many Christians say faith is better than belief and belief leads to faith.
        • Jim says:

          August 13, 2015 at 10:19 am

          Paul,

          According to your story, someone preyed upon your naivete. They did not teach you Tanach. You did not know the definition of idolatry. You did not know how one was to achieve forgiveness. You did not know what God expected of you. You were told a story. Someone preyed upon your ignorance and your sense of guilt and made you feel grateful that someone would die for you. They never told you that God did not require such a thing. In fact, it is an abhorrent notion to Him.

          What is remarkable is that, even admitting that you made a decision without studying or discussing the facts, you still feel qualified to tell those who have grown up learning Torah that you know better than they do. Those who have studied, discussed and argued, you call them faithless. Yet they have dedicated themselves to learning and upholding the words of God. You embraced a human as god without even considering the facts. You hold that ignorance up as a badge of faith!

          When the Jewish people point out that God says that there is none beside Him, you do not listen. You have faith. When the Jewish people point out that God says that He will share His glory with none other, you do not listen. You have faith. When the Jewish people point out that God is the Savior and there is none other, you do not listen. You have faith.

          So tell me, why should they listen to you and not God? You have admitted that you made an unstudied decision. If you have a toothache, do you go to your mechanic or your dentist? The dentist, because he has made a study of teeth. The mechanic may have an opinion about your tooth, but you know that it is unqualified. It is not his area of knowledge. You go to those who have studied. The same in an other field of study, including Torah.

          Now, I emphathize with your position. Christianity has a strong emotional appeal. I know; I was a Christian once. But knowledge is not the same as unfounded belief. And one can attach his emotions even to fantasy and delusion. People live in fear of alien beings, though they have never seen one. People invest themselves in all sorts of superstitions, taking comfort in them at times and fearing them at others. The story the gospels tell are emotionally powerful. That does not make them true.

          And any investigation into the facts, quickly reveals that they are full of falsehoods. The NT makes it a constant practice to misrepresent the Word of God. They alter it. They decontextualize it. If you or I had studied these things before blindly believing them, it would have aided us greatly. We would not have become invested in Christianity, seeing it for what it was, a deception. We could have made informed decisions, not hasty, emotional decisions.

          If you wish to maintain your belief in Jesus, that is your business. But I ask you to consider, is it fair to try to convert others? I know the NT tells you to “go into all the world, etc.” But consider, is it fair to prey upon the ignorance of others? Is it right to misrepresent the Word of God to others? Is it fair to come to those who know Torah, and accuse them of faithlessness for devoting themselves to God? Since we know your faith is baseless, it would be best if you did not spread it.

          Jim

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 13, 2015 at 1:03 pm

            Hello

            Jim, Im not trying to convert no one. Im just sharing, firstly what the NT teaches ref Christ regarding Himself and His teachings with regard to the Tanch. I dont have the power or authority to convert. Only the Power of The Holy Spirit can show the truth.

            And secondly I was using my life as a testament to my faith in accepting Christ, as a view to show my argument about faith.

            You are correct that emotions can take a central role on hearing the goods news, its not a must have, to believe, but coming to faith, when one sees that they are forgiven by the Lord God of Israel, through His Son, then its quite impossible not to show emotion. How one show emotions differ, but emotions are apart of the human experience.

            The majority of your reply are purely based on your own views, which you are more than entitled to do so, however your views are not scriptural. Your rejection is, but the content isnt.

            If you were a “christian once”????!!!” then you would know this, seeing that Christ died for your sins and you were forgiven through Him, then at that point you would have been baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. The NT teaches very clearly one cannot depart from the body of Christ, the church. That revelation of truth about Christ rebirths one spiritually. You cannot sin yourself out of the body and you cannot have a un revelation of truth, its totally impossible.

            So you were never a christian in the scriptual sense, just in a outward religious sense.
          • Dina says:

            August 13, 2015 at 1:35 pm

            Hi Paul,

            I’m not responding on behalf of Jim, but I just wanted to respond to this:

            “The majority of your reply are purely based on your own views, which you are more than entitled to do so, however your views are not scriptural.”

            Please see Deuteronomy 4:35.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 4:31 pm

            Paul To say that someone who converts out of your faith was never a Christian is simply a petty ploy – aren’t you embarrassed to use it? When he was a Christian how would have proved that wasn’t “really” a Christian?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:08 pm

            Apparently that holy spirit couldn’t show the “truth” to Stephen.
          • Jim says:

            August 13, 2015 at 2:13 pm

            Paul,

            Dismissing my views as unscriptural only works if you bring proof. Of course you have none. Let me give you an instance of what proof looks like, so that you are not left with nothing to say other than empty assertions.

            I have said that the NT misrepresents Tanach, what you call the Old Testament. In the past I have brought several instances of this. I have not issued a vague and meaningless assertion. For example, I have written to you on several occasions that the author of Hebrews altered the words of Jeremiah. Hebrews 8:9 says that God “had no concern for” Israel because they did not continue in his covenant. The author quote a large passage from Jeremiah 31. Except, he has changed the words. It does not say that God disregard Israel, but that they broke his covenant, “though I was their husband” (31:32). So, when I say that the NT misrepresents Tanach, I actually show how.

            The same thing with Psalm 41. Yesterday, I believe, I wrote a piece on that, showing how absurd it is to pull one verse out-of-context and say that this part applies to Jesus but not the rest. I did not make a mere assertion. I made an argument.

            Now, I admit that I did not list the passages I quoted when I said that God says that there is none beside Him, that He is the only Savior, and that He will not share His glory with another. Are these the things you attribute to “my own views” that are not scriptural? I assumed that these passages were well known, but if you like, I will list the verses for you. Please let me know. I would not wish you to think that I was making unfounded claims. Dina has listed one of them for you.

            I would say that one of the biggest mistakes the Church has made has been to make these lovely cross-referenced Bibles. If you read Jesus saying that he fulfilled being betrayed by someone close to him who broke bread with him, it would look amazing if you did not know where to look it up. All Matthew’s ‘fulfilled’ prophecies appear astounding, when you do not read the actual prophecies. Cross-referenced Bibles have made it much easier for those who do not have a broad knowledge of Tanach to check things for themselves. All the unfounded claims of the church, their unscriptural views, their misrepresentations are easily checked. The evidence of its malfeasance is easily available for all to see.

            I do not have to make unfounded assertions. These are not “my views”. They are not unscriptural. This is a baseless assertion on your part. If you could have brought proof from Tanach, you would have. Now that you have seen some examples of proof, you need no longer make unfounded statements to be taken as true, merely because you asserted them.

            (And Lion or C. Paul, or whatever you are calling yourself today. I hope you have read this too. It would be great if you could prove rather than pontificate.)

            Jim
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:32 pm

            When I first did my study of Xtianity over 40 years ago i just happened to use one of those cross-referenced bibles. It didn’t take long before I started questioning the Xtian text. Those I had heard on the radio I assumed were just misinformed. After a couple years of that study I determined, for myself, that this was utter garbage. When I Did study I wasn’t content to Just look at That verse but, out of curiosity, I would read many chapters before And after.
        • Dina says:

          August 13, 2015 at 11:36 am

          Paul,

          “When I became a believer in Christ I wasnt looking or arguing scripture. Somebody simply told me that Christ Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for all my sins. He said I was a sinner, but forgiven through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, king of The Jews. He told me I was redeemed, fom all my past, present and future sins, through the sacrificial lamb of God, His Son.

          I believed truly in what Jesus had done for me. That was exercising faith.”

          What you’re saying is you accepted what someone told you on his say-so, and you expect us to accept what you say on your say-so.

          The bedrock of faith must be reason, not the other way around.

          And if Tanach doesn’t align with your belief, you must reject it because you are rebelling against God.

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 13, 2015 at 1:55 pm

            Hello Dina

            It wasn’t accepted by the mans reasoning to my mindset , my acceptance of the messsge was by the Lord God The Holy Spirit. Its called conviction. The Holy Spirit opens the eyes and reveals truth.
            The man didnt himself have power to show the truth, however he coulld tell me what Christ had done according to the NT. The messsge, the Word of God is the power unto salvation, which is proclaimed by believers, but its God who reveals and convicts based on the messsge proclaimed.

            I would totally disagree with you comment about bedrock, faith. The power of the Holy Spirit through conviction is not based on human reasoning. Gods love is well beyond the human flesh of resoning. Thats faith.

            I suppose I do and can reason per se, though post the event. I can reason with the texts and see for example that the resurrection was true, because there were hundreds of witnesses, which were documented. Thats normal reasoning when ones reads all the texts speaking about the ressuction to come etc.
            Not to confuse things here though, I believed in the resurrection at the moment of my salvation, because seeing that Jesus conquered the grave, He ultimately conquered the penalty of sin which is death. Thats the core of the message.

            God choosing to die and hang for my sins is beyond my reasoning. However I know He did this because by faith through His grace He showed me.
          • Paul summers says:

            August 13, 2015 at 2:35 pm

            Hello Dina
            Yes Deut ch 4 is scriptual.

            I see you need to read verse 40 also.

            It doesnt say reject Him though, however the scriptures do show that He will be rejected at His first advent and then reign as King at His second.
          • Dina says:

            August 13, 2015 at 4:18 pm

            Paul, what is your point with citing verse 40? It doesn’t weaken verse 35, if that is what you are attempting to do.

            “The scriptures do show that He will be rejected at His first advent and then reign as King at His second.”

            All right, prove it. Show me the citations. If you can’t, then retract this statement.

            “It doesnt say reject Him though.”

            Deuteronomy 13 tells us to reject the false prophet, which is anyone who introduces a new type of worship that wasn’t taught at Sinai per Deuteronomy 4. You have yet to address this. I have presented it countless times.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:35 pm

            And WHERE in Tanach does it say a messiah will “return as king” a second time.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 13, 2015 at 3:32 pm

            @Paul

            Jesus told he would appear to the scribes and pharisees after 3 days. If he didn’t do so, he could have appeared to the whole rest of the earth that he would still be a false prophet. You need to adress that.

            Also you wrote:

            “Yes Deut ch 4 is scriptual.

            I see you need to read verse 40 also.”

            40 And thou shalt keep his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days in the land, which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, for ever.

            Maybe is it the wrong verse? I’m not sure verse 40 from wich book you are talking about so i might be mistaken.
46. Jim says:

    August 12, 2015 at 1:22 pm

    A Brief Note on Psalm 41.

    When we look at a subject, if we truly want to understand it, we examine all its properties. We examine as many properties of the subject as we can, at least. The subject of Psalm 41 was betrayed. But that is not his only property. He also has sinned. Separating the two properties to make one speak about Jesus and one about David is folly. The two are united in one subject. They are part of the same Psalm. If one property applies to the subject, so must the other.

    I was born in Hawaii. Imagine me picking up President Obama’s autobiography and reading a sentence that reads: “I was born in Hawaii.” It would be presumptuous and ludicrous for me to say that the president was writing about me, even though it would be a true statement if I said, “I was born in Hawaii.” The President does not know me; he was writing about himself. His statement, while true of me if I say it, does not mean that his statement was about me. In fact, we know from the context of the book that he was writing about himself.

    It is just as presumptuous and ludicrous to say that one verse from a psalm is about Jesus while the rest is about David. The subject was never Jesus. All the verses go together. There is no sense in which Jesus can be said to have fulfilled the psalm. Nor could he be said to fulfill the one verse, which is connected to the rest.

    Such claims, besides being empty, are a distraction. When one reads Torah, the Psalms, or the Prophets, on the hunt for Jesus, he misses the actual messages being given over. He denies himself the wisdom of Torah. He is like one in a windstorm who cannot hear his friend because a wind fills his ears. Everything is static to him, except a phrase here or there, which he interprets without the aid of the rest of what is said.

    Psalm 41 is not there for us to learn about Jesus. The proof of this is that it is not one verse long. The Christian would better spend his time reading Tanach in its entirety, not just the verses that he can make appear to be about Jesus. He would be better served by reading Psalm 41 and contemplating its entire contents and not the one verse that, when lifted from the rest, he can inject in a meaning clearly not intended.

    Jim

    Reply
47. Concerned Reader says:

    August 12, 2015 at 3:25 pm

    Rabbi, I was just thinking about what you were saying about proving Mary’s virginity. I got to thinking, it would have been impossible for her community not to know about it if it actually happened, which I don’t believe it did for a second.

    Mary would have needed to go to the ritual bath several several times over the course of being with child, and before, and HELLO, Joseph wasn’t at home and nobody in town noticed? Nobody except Mary knew of this miracle? And she hid the secret in her heart? I’m sorry but ritual in the 1st century would virtually guarantee that EVERYONE in Nazareth knew about it if it happened.

    Its hard for me to accept the virgin birth when

    1. its a doctrine based off of one supposed fulfilled verse Isaiah 7:14
    2. Paul doesn’t mention it in his letters (he’s our earliest written source of the NT)
    3. If Jesus had no human father his genealogies in Mathew and Luke are totally superfluous from a torah standpoint.
    4. There are early church traditions about Disposyni (literally the blood relatives of Jesus.) In these stories they are hunted down by Romans precisely because as relatives of Jesus they are purported to have Davidic lineage.
    5. The Ebionites (a Torah observant group of Jesus followers) rejected the doctrine outright.
    6. The doctrine would be more pervasive in the text because of what it does to strengthen the doctrine of the incarnation. It isn’t mentioned, ergo I think its bunk.

    Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 12, 2015 at 4:06 pm

      Concerned Reader I am not sure what you mean here – It certainly would have been public knowledge that she made such a claim had she done so – but no one besides her personal gynecologist would be able to verify it

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 12, 2015 at 5:01 pm

        Rabbi Shalom to you!

        Your missing the point. Maryam prophecy is the proof! (Luke 1) All generations will proclaim me blessed! Try doing that!

        Now back to Moses Revelation who observe the Torah as Moses wrote it a few Orthodox Jews a far cry compared to those who observe the Torah from Tsyon.

        Also how do you know what happen in Sinai: you just believe it! You have no tangible proof but still you believe it.

        But when Christian believe without seeing the witnesses of the Resurrection of the Messiah than that is not valid.

        Again two scales to judge! To be consistent is a quality that not many of us have. But God is consistent and his word is truth. He promises salvation for all nations. He delivered first to the Jews they denied it those in authority but to those who believed His Word He gave the power to become sons of God. Also Psalm 45 can be applied to Maryam the holy mother: who will put her sons (the Saints) as princes in all the earth… Also verse 17 confirms her prophecy in the Gospel of Luke 1:v.48b

        13 The royal daughter is all glorious within the palace;
        Her clothing is woven with gold.
        14 She shall be brought to the King in robes of many colors;
        The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to You.
        15 With gladness and rejoicing they shall be brought;
        They shall enter the King’s palace.

        16 Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
        Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
        17 I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
        Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.

        Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 12, 2015 at 6:07 pm

          Mr. “order of Eliyah”;
          Muslims say Mohammed is the rightful error and there are more of them than you. So, deal with that.

          Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 12, 2015 at 6:15 pm

          Christian Paul, Orthodox Christians have ZERO logical, or historical grounds to make the claim that rabbinic Judaism is not a faithful continuation of second temple Judaism’s norms and beliefs. Orthodox Christians do not observe any of the ritual aspects of Jewish law that is incumbent upon Jews as expressed in Torah, and in that respect, you don’t resemble any group of religious Jews in the second temple period at all period.

          (any astute student of the history of Judaisms of the second temple period knows that scrupulous observance of all the halachos of Torah was essential to a Jewish identity in that period regardless of the sect that a person belonged to.)

          The Ebionites, the Pharisees/rabbinic Jews, the dead sea sectarians, the sadducees, and even the Samaritans all believed that they were duty bound to observe all the rituals of Jewish law and religion according to their own communities accepted interpretations for all generations.

          You, a modern Christian, by contrast to those in second temple times, embrace Paul of Tarsus’ antinomian interpretation of the law, a view that not even the Hellenistic Jew Philo of Alexandria would have supported.

          You believe that Israel in the flesh is not the true Israel of G-d, and you believe that rabbinic observance of halacha by Jews today is not pleasing to G-d. Someone should really tell all the Jews of the past this information, (including Jesus’ students) because THEY ALL OBSERVED THESE RITUALS, HOLIDAYS, ETC.

          For Jews to abandon the ritual aspects of the law as the Church teaches them to do is not allowed for Jews according to scripture.

          You have dressed age old replacement theology in platitudes, but its the exact same error. Christians need to understand something. For the early Christian Jews, as Jews, they were supposed to be observant of Torah law. Allowance was given FOR THE GENTILES to forgo a halachic conversion. Gentiles were taught to observe rules for G-d fearing gentiles along with their faith in Jesus. Never does Jesus say in the NT that Jews should stop observing Jewish law as they had. He even tells a CROWD OF Random STRANGERS “the scribes and pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, therefore what they bid you to observe, that observe and do.”

          Reply
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 6:39 pm

            As the saying goes, it’s not so much that Jews have kept Shabbat, but Shabbat has kept the Jew.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 12, 2015 at 7:04 pm

            Peace to you Con!

            You said: “You believe that Israel in the flesh is not the true Israel of G-d, and you believe that rabbinic observance of halacha by Jews today is not pleasing to G-d”

            Your statement produces real problems in reality:

            1) for Saul and all men or women alike where their father is a Jew and their mother non-Jewish; according to Jewish law their are non-Jew

            2) for Caucasian Jews another problem appears they are non DNA-Jews, their DNA for half of them is mixed with non-Semitic ancestry

            3) convert are maybe Jewish in religion but not in the flesh like you say it

            4) according to the flesh and DNA the Middles Eastern Christian are more Jew than the Caucasian Jew

            5)Therefore some Rabbis have developed the theory of the Jew by the soul of those who present at Mount Sinai by way of reincarnation are Jews returning to actual bodies. Still they are not Israel in the Flesh.

            Therefore we have a real problem of true Jewish Identity. The only way to resolve this with certainty is true the call of God who know his children and through the mean of his Messiah Resurrection. Let me explain!

            For the Orthodox Christian all those baptized meaning those who received the seed of Faith can grow the Flesh of Israel in them by communing regularly to the Resurrected Israel which is the Christ Resurrected Flesh. The are the flesh and bone of the Israel of God the first born in all. Their flesh is One with the Flesh of the Messiah a real Jew for they become who they eat by way of Holy Communion.

            Conclusion this no replacement theology like you said it but the mean of God to assure the real identity of the real Israel of God.

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 12, 2015 at 7:29 pm

            You’ve tried this same fallacy before only using “Caucasian” instead of Khazars. It’s been shown before that it was perpetrated by anti-Semites and still used by Muslims. It’s not different than the blood-libels perpetrated by the church, Your Church, which is still used today also.
          • Dina says:

            August 12, 2015 at 7:40 pm

            Hmmm…I wonder where I’ve heard this before, Christian Paul. Oh, yes, that’s right. It was good old Eli Lion. He said the exact same thing. What a fascinating coincidence.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 13, 2015 at 1:48 am

            @Christian Paul,

            “5)Therefore some Rabbis have developed the theory of the Jew by the soul of those who present at Mount Sinai by way of reincarnation are Jews returning to actual bodies. Still they are not Israel in the Flesh.”

            Totaly false:

            But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Ruth 1:16

            2 things: your God is my God(religion), your people is my people(flesh). Ruth, ancester of David and the Messiah according to the flesh. Sorry for your theory.

            “Their flesh is One with the Flesh of the Messiah a real Jew for they become who they eat by way of Holy Communion.”

            So, Jesus had no human father, had Ruth as ancester, wich according to your theory is not Israel in the flesh, but he still is a jew? You like to contradict yourself when your argument needs it don’t you?
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 12, 2015 at 10:20 pm

          Christian There is no point to miss. You are believing something that no one even claimed to see. The Sinai revelation – it is claimed was seen by many. By the way Christian – the advantage of Sinai over other claims is not my argument – it is God’s argument – why don’t you take it up with Him? Read it in Deuteronomy 4:31-35 Your interpretation of Psalm 45 is contradicted by the original Hebrew – the word for “your name” is masculine it cannot apply to a female

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 12:03 am

            Shalom Rabbi!

            We believe the witnesses of the Resurrection!
            You believe the witnesses of Sinai!
            In both cases this is called Trust in the Word of God.

            For your part you never experienced Sinai!
            For us Christian Orthodox we experience the Resurrection

            You follow your many prescriptions outside Torah
            We follow the author of the Torah and become living Torah

            Now concerning Psalm 45 verse 17, the word ”your name”

            Verse 16 has also the word ”your fathers” and ”your children” as masculine … What is then the meaning?

            Do you have the key to understand verse 16 and 17 knowing that it refers to the Messiah and the Woman as ONE, where the masculine will take predominance.

            Many blessings and thank you for the masculine precision! May the truth prevail in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 12:13 am

            Christian What tells you that I never experienced Sinai?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 8:46 am

            We believe the witnesses of the Resurrection!
            You believe the witnesses of Sinai!

            For your part you never experienced Sinai!
            For us Christian Orthodox we experience the Resurrection

            This is a good example of double-talk. Have you Actually died and were resurrected. Any symbolic reference is meaningless. If you suggest it IS ‘More’ than symbolic we will then have to conclude that the eating of the flesh and the drinking of the blood of Jsus is Also more than symbolic.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 12:32 am

            Shalom Rabbi!

            If you talking about the new doctrine of the souls who were at Sinai who supposedly reincarnated in our time… That is not in the Tanakh but a new doctrine of the rabbinic Judaism.

            No where in the Tanakh the doctrine of reincarnation is taught. It might be an Eastern influence from the pagan Hindus but in 13 principles of Judaism it is the Resurrection that is to be believed not the reincarnation.

            May the truth prevail in all!
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 6:31 am

            Christian I am not talking about reincarnation – I am talking about the joy of studying God’s Torah the connection to God that is achieved through study of Torah the holiness, the light and the truth of the Torah and the small still voice of truth that is with those who study the Torah – this is reexperiencing Sinai to some degree
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 9:06 am

            I just wonder CP, Where do you get your Judaism information. Solely from the internet? You certainly have many misconceptions, or rather, incomplete information. You aren’t alone in THIS regard.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 13, 2015 at 12:57 am

            @Christian,

            Remember that the ressurection had to be witnessed by the Pharisees:

            Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” 39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. Matthew 12

            If thoses scribes and pharisees didn’t see Jesus after 3 days, whatever the supposed witnesses of his ressurection said, he made a false prophecy. So, in fact, the ressurection issue is the end of Christianity.
          • Paul summers says:

            August 13, 2015 at 8:11 am

            Hello YPF
            And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

            Well it definitely wasnt the NT!!

            😂😂
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 13, 2015 at 8:18 am

            Paul So which passages in the Jewish Scriptures was Simeon looking at that would have confirmed Jesus’ claims?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 9:55 am

            It just seems odd that so much of the Xtian text uses the term holy spirit. It’s something I haven’t yet put my finger on.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 11:56 am

            Hi Rabbi!

            Symeon saw the salvation (Yeshuah means salvation) of God. Here are the references:

            Psalm 98:3
            He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

            Psalm 119:155
            Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.

            Isaiah 52:10
            The Lord will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.

            Isaiah 65:1
            [ Judgment and Salvation ] “I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’

            Luke 2:29-31
            29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
            According to Your word;
            30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
            31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
            (Symeon)

            The fact that Symeon who was a old pious man got up and testify that baby Yeshuah was the salvation of God is a strong testimony that you should not disregard.

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:02 pm

            There must be countless saviors, since there are countless Yeshuah’s
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 13, 2015 at 1:03 pm

            @Christian Paul

            Who is Yeshua? If it was Jesus’ name, then where has the “a” gone in the greek NT? The LXX keeps the “a” of Joshua, so why no “a” for this Yeshua? As far as the NT and Tanakh are concerned, Yeshu is more likely than Yeshua.
      • Paul summers says:

        August 14, 2015 at 12:53 pm

        Paul To say that someone who converts out of your faith was never a Christian is simply a petty ploy – aren’t you embarrassed to use it?

        Hello

        The point Im making is a NT teaching. Its not a ploy as you incorrectly label it. So as its a NT doctrine i cant be embarrassed to use it.

        Born again believers in Christ, are just that, born again. You simply cannot turn or change your mind on something which has been personally shown to someone.

        The revelation of truth in this context is the death of Christ being the redeemer. You cant one day truly be convicted of a fact,truth, and then one day change your mind.

        You can walk contary to life one is supposedly be walking, thats true and common to all, but that doesnt change the truth of the conviction which occurred.

        Some one can merley “confess” they know the truth and go along with it convincing themselves and others for years. But the actuall conviction and believing never happened.

        You ask how can I make such a statement? Again my answer is based on the NT, which one you deny, but also how can you deny how I see the truth, when believing in Christ is something which you dont have any experience with, so how do you say im wrong.

        Thats like me stating I know what its like being a Jewish Rabbi, and telling you that whatever you feel about being a Rabbi is incorrect.

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 14, 2015 at 1:20 pm

          Paul Its very simple – because its not just about “feeling” – its about truth. Do you think that the false prophets of Scripture felt or saw nothing? Do you think that the adherents of other faiths don’t feel that their faith is true? Don’t you realize that I feel that my faith is true? But your faith claims that its “feeling” lines up with Scripture – and that is demonstrably false – so yes Paul, you can recognize your feelings for what they are “feelings” and follow the small still voice of truth. And yes Paul – the Christian Scriptures are presenting a petty self-serving teaching – that if you leave the “fold” then you were never “really” in it – These are people who were willing to give their lives for the “faith” – but when they discover that they’ve been snookered and they follow God’s truth – suddenly all of their sacrifice becomes nothing? – does that “feel” right to you?

          Reply
        • Jim says:

          August 16, 2015 at 4:52 pm

          Paul,

          Your definition of faith is simply untenable. If you are to assert, as you do, that just hearing and believing without any evidence or knowledge is faith and desirable, then you must grant the same validity to every religious system. When the pre-Mormon waits to see if he has a burning in his bosom, a sign that the Mormon religion is true, and he does get the burning, you must assent that Mormonism is valid. When one feels connected to the universe through Hindu worship, you will have to call that a valid religious experience. This will be the case of any religion, as long as one sincerely feels it is true, you will have to call it a valid religious experience.

          But truth is not measured this way. It is not measured by the intensity of the feeling inspired in the believer. In what other arena of life, would you accept one’s personal feelings on a matter to determine whether or not it was a valid opinion? Let us say that a bomb is discovered at the mall, under the bench upon which I am sitting. Do I go with my gut feeling and attempt to disarm it myself? Or do I wait for someone with knowledge of bombs to come and defuse the thing? I wait.

          If you have a health problem, do you go to a doctor, someone who has studied the body, or do you go to someone who just feels like maybe you have an imbalance in your male/female energy? Another option is going to someone who has had a similar pain, but they are too ready to attribute yours to the same source, because they do not know the body. They only know their rather limited experience.

          I had a friend who once told me that she knew that the past lives she’d been told she had through a medium were true because she got goosebumps. She knew that they were true. Do you count her feelings as a measure of truth? I don’t. I asked her if she tested the goosebumps with known facts like 2+2=4. She never had, of course. Nor did she get goosebumps over such mundane things. In fact, she could not tell when a politician lied or told the truth by her goosebumps either.

          Your feelings are your feelings. They are no measure of truth, however.

          You told R’ Blumenthal that you do not tell him what it’s like to be a rabbi, because you do not know how that feels. Here you have mixed categories, several times over, but I’ll keep it short. R’ Blumenthal does not tell you what it feels like to be a Christian. I doubt he would be so presumptuous. He has written about whether or not Christianity is true. He has written about whether or not its claims about Tanach are accurate. Those are two different things.

          Similarly, you do not tell him what it is like to be a rabbi, but you do tell him what is the proper understanding of Torah, a book you can neither read, nor is it part of your heritage. Moreover, your understanding of Torah is based on a view you adopted in ignorance, based on your emotions, emotions which are not a measure of truth. This is presumptuous. It is also presumptuous that you consider him faithless, which does address how he responds to God inwardly, a state you cannot know.

          You insist that you know the truth, but you base that upon feelings, which are not a measure of truth. You ignore evidence, the means by discovering the truth. You accuse those who disagree with you, though you never investigate the truth before assenting to an unproven proposition.

          I repeat what I said a few days ago: it is your business if you believe it. To insist that it is true is absurd. To tell others that they must believe what you do, because you really, really believe it is folly. To stand by and allow the Torah and Prophets to be misrepresented, when you believe that they were inspired by God, is criminal.

          Jim

          Reply
48. Concerned Reader says:

    August 12, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    Christian Paul, none of what you are saying means anything. Orthodox Jews have faith, it’s not about ethnicity. There are Jews of all ethnicities. India, Yemen, and etheopia have some of the oldest Jewish communities for instance. Your statements about European Jews have no bearing on anything. Jews accepted converts until the Church prevented them by force from proseletyzing.

    Actually, according to the written Torah, if your father is Jewish, then that’s the tribe you belong to. Halacha went to the mother because of Roman persecution. If you convert, you can be Jewish, but Judaism doesn’t require conversion for G-d to love you. You speak of Christ as Israel, but Israel is defined as those faithful to G-d’s law.

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 13, 2015 at 12:13 am

      Hi Con!

      You are the one who talk about the Israel in the Flesh. That is a myth! The only way possible is through the Way which is the Flesh of the Pure One, Christ Himself.

      You do not believe and of course therefore you do not have the sense to it.
      We believe it and we therefore comprehend the sense.

      That is why certain are justified by Faith and other are not. Guess in the bottom line what counts is those who the Father call to Him for they love the Truth his Son and other love themselves and their truth.

      O you will say we have the Torah of Moses! I say you have the illusion of having something but we have the certitude of having the author and the living Torah. What a difference! What a marvellous trade! But who can understand if not those who have the living Faith, bless are those for they will be kings with the King!

      Peace to you and may the truth prevail in all!

      Reply
      • Saul Goodman says:

        August 13, 2015 at 1:03 am

        “You are the one who talk about the Israel in the Flesh. That is a myth! The only way possible is through the Way which is the Flesh of the Pure One, Christ Himself.”

        It is your Paul who talked about it:

        New International Version
        the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

        English Standard Version
        They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

        New American Standard Bible
        who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

        King James Bible
        Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

        Young’s Literal Translation
        who are Israelites, whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises

        Romans 9:4

        Anyway. Now, after reading you enough, it is obvious you are not here to dialogue. You almost never bring any argument, or any proof, and just make blod claims. Like a child in the kindergarten.

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 13, 2015 at 5:33 am

          Christian Paul, it is obvious that you truly believe in your “experience of the ressurected Jesus,” and nobody can change what you believe you experienced. The problem is, the Torah gives us the keys to understanding who the messiah is, and what he is supposed to accomplish. Jesus (sadly) doesn’t fit that role in the plain sense, because that role is unfinished.

          The Torah made promises to Israel as a literal earthly nation, while you believe the promise was fulfilled spiritually. The Torah doesn’t talk about a figurative restoration of Israel as an undefined group of Jews and Gentiles, but speaks of a very real literal redemption of a Jewish nation returning to Israel.

          You teach that salvation comes only through acknowledgement of Jesus your Christ, but Torah says life is found in the commandments of the father, and that those commandments aren’t too hard for anyone to observe.

          I don’t hold a grudge against you for believing in Jesus, or blame you, not at all, for trusting your own experiences over the words of other people here, but please realize that everything the New Testament says is only a claim about the fulfillment of the Jewish Bible, a claim about fulfilling Jewish religion.

          Christianity therefore stands In a unique relationship with the Torah, because it says that it fulfills Torah. It says of itself “if you want to see my credentials, check the Torah.” This is a claim that can be tested Christian Paul. We are not in the wrong to question whether Christianity fits the Torah’s message, because that’s our Job! We aren’t supposed to just accept a prophet based on a miracle. We are not supposed to accept a prophet who contradicts Moses’ words, we are supposed to put our relationship with the father above our relationship to any earthly King, even a Jewish messianic King or candidate.

          I do not believe Christianity fits the messianic teaching of the Torah, because Christianity is openly hostile to the tree from which it sprang, namely, the Jewish tree. Jesus observed Jewish customs and holidays, not Christian ones, but somehow your belief is supposed to be more biblical? I’m sorry Christian Paul, but your methodology is wrong. You are looking through the lens of your experiences to validate Jesus. You are asking whether Christian belief can be found through hints in the Torah, and whether these beliefs can be reconciled with it. You should be asking rather, “does the Christian religion accord with the stipulations of Israel’s covenant that she made with G-d?” If you ask that question, the answer is no, because Christianity changes the terms of the covenant G-d made. G-d says that if someone comes and changes the terms of the covenant he made at Sinai, that this person is a false prophet.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 11:17 am

            Peace to you Con!

            As a witness of the Resurrection I can not deny the Truth. As Moses was a witness He can not deny the Truth. I do not put opposition against Moses Torah. I see major discrepancies from the Judaism of Moses and the ones which survive to this day.

            1) Rabbinic Judaism believe the Talmud as higher than the Torah adding multiple small commandments that burden the People of God. The understanding is in the light of human spirit trying to navigate the multiple difficulties of the Torah which created the need of master-rabbis to interpret it each being like a pope although without the ‘infallibility’ of the former.

            2) Karaite Judaism those who only believe in the Torah of Moses and all Holy Scriptures contain in the Jewish Bible alone. They reject rabbinic interventions.

            3) Messianic Judaism which is a mix of everything Jewish and Christian

            4) Catholicism who said that the are the Only valid authority of this Earth through the pope alone… Now they have morphed to a more appealing form to seduces the masses. They are the biggest cult in History. An office of Antichrist!

            5)Finally Orthodox Christian the true inheritors of the Divine Liturgy of the Temple and the true bearer of the living Torah the Messiah accomplishment of the Torah and the Prophets.

            Now why the Orthodox Christianity is the accomplishment of the Judaism of Moses because the author of the Torah who gave the Torah to Moses the form of God his Image the Christ is the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow the one who is the supreme Legislator. The Father gave everything to his Son for his sons in His Son His Image become like Him in his Image and become pleasing to his eyes.

            You hang on to a primitive way of seeing things that can only be understood if you are infants(babies in the faith). I respect your process of seeing things. But a baby can not stay forever a baby (infant) unless he does not want to grow up.

            Therefore our role is to be witness to the whole Truth in order to let the captive be free and the sick be healed and the handicap be fully restored. We are not here to denigrate nobody but to propose the consecrated proposal offered to Israel. We are here to grow up the Messianic Body for that the world can believe that the one living Torah is not dead letters buried in shelves but the way to the truth and the life eternal.

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:00 pm

            Are you saying you were there 2000 years ago and saw the supposed resurrection. You tell the Jews they weren’t there but YOU want to claim knowledge. One thing is for certain, Xtianity has to rely on the Applewhite Theorem.

            You keep saying “Rabbinic Judaism” is not the Torah of Moshe. Not only are you ignorant of “Rabbinic Judaism” but you have NO idea what Moshe even taught at that time. All YOU have is “assumptions” of what Torah living was during that time. Will you say the same regarding Ezra, and what Isaiah wrote, and Daniel. THEY practiced what Jews today practice.

            Karaite Judaism is, in itself, an oxymoron. They are the one who don’t believe in ANY oral Torah, therefore, they have had to “create” their own, and the different ones cannot agree on many things.

            “Messianic Judaism” was an invention by a few in order to lure Jews to Xtianity. The odd part of them is they follow more of the ritual things that actual Torah.

            The only reason you use Orthodox Xtianity is it sound important, and thus, makes you feel more important. You have no idea the Torah of Moshe and only have a claim to it but no ancestry to it. You have admitted countless times you do not follow Moshe in regards to Shabbat, but one of your church’s OWN Invention. If you can’t get this simple Mitzvah correct you cannot be trusted with any part of Torah. So it was with Stephen, and so it is with you, Neither are trustworthy with Torah.
49. Jim says:

    August 13, 2015 at 12:24 am

    Eric,

    Responding to you, here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-22055 .

    Your argument largely rests on the false notion that small, seemingly meaningless actions, cannot have a deeper meaning and that emergencies are a good reason to break the Sabbath. Allow me to address the second first and the first second.

    Nobody has denied that for an emergency, one is to break the Sabbath. The problem is that at none of the points Jesus breaks the Sabbath or allows his disciples to break the Sabbath is there an emergency. When they are plucking grain in the field, this is no emergency. These are not starving men. In fact, they must be close to their lodgings, since one is limited in his travel on the Sabbath. When Jesus appeals to David’s eating the showbread, it has no bearing, therefore. It is irrelevant. He betrays, in fact, that he is no Torah scholar.

    In the healings we’ve discussed so far, none of them have been emergencies either. But it was not the healing that violated the Sabbath anyway. The mud he made was not made for an emergency. It contributed nothing to the healing.

    Your argument about emergencies has nothing to do with any of the situations.

    Now, you want to say that Jesus was making a point that spitting is not to be forbidden on the Sabbath, that this is a silly innovation by the rabbis. You wish to make the rabbis look legalistic and foolish. But your argument does not hold. First, Jesus did not just spit. You are rewriting the text to fit your pet theory. He made mud intentionally for the purpose of smearing it on a man’s eyes. It is an act of creation, not a random act of spitting. You decontextualize your own NT. Second, he does not address the question of rabbinic ordinances, laws of man, as you might say.

    You also want to say that making mud is not a violation of the Sabbath. According to what you wrote, however, it is. Mud is a thick mixture. Exactly how much spit do you think he used? Two gallons to half a cup of dirt? According to your source, making a thick mixture violates the Sabbath. And as I pointed out, the dispute in John is not about whether or not Jesus violated the Sabbath. The dispute revolves around whether or not Jesus is from God. Both sides acknowledge that he violated the Sabbath. The only question is whether or not he is from God, because he healed a man. The confusion is around the question why one who violates the Sabbath is allowed to do miracles. Clearly John is not familiar with Deuteronomy 13, or he does not care for it.

    Now, you have tried to make those who observe Torah look foolish. You have tried to say that small details do not matter. But you should know that God did not want people even to gather manna on the Sabbath. Surely you do not think that was because gathering manna was labor intensive. The whole point is for the Jewish people to testify to the creation of the world by God. They are to set aside the day to do no act of creation. Even a small act of creation is a violation of this. For gathering sticks, a man had to pay the death penalty. Small things do matter.

    Do you know how many times Torah says that Moses and Aaron did everything as God had commanded them? I have not counted them, but it comes up multiple times. Torah emphasizes that they did not operate according to approximations. They were not obedient only in their heart. They were obedient to the last detail. They were fastidious in keeping HaShem’s Torah. You have made details appear petty. Torah sees it differently.

    So for Jesus to violate the Sabbath, even a small violation, is serious. Now, it would be one thing if he just made a mistake. It would show that he was not perfect, of course, but whom among us is? But, if these were mistakes he was making, then he should have allowed himself to be corrected. He should have the humility to be teachable. Instead, he is belligerent. If it was not a mistake. If he knew that it was a violation of Sabbath, then it was an act of rebellion. Then it becomes even more serious.

    It is apparent that your argument does not offer a sufficient defense of Jesus. He was not merely spitting, but intentionally mixing his spit with the clay to make a thick mixture. It was not an emergency situation. Nor was it an emergency when he allowed his disciples to break the Sabbath. His arguments there show a mind unacquainted with Torah.

    To remind you of why I made these comments in the first place, it was not to malign Jesus. But Jesus did malign those who questioned him. Yet, their questions were reasonable. He violated the Sabbath and taught others to do so. They asked him legitimate questions, but he answered them with harsh excoriations, which were not justified. Christians have made him out to be like one of the prophets, merely addressing the sin of the Jewish leadership. But the gospels reveal a different story. They show a man who violated Torah and heaped vitriol upon those who questioned him.

    Jim

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 13, 2015 at 1:13 am

      Jim, your are full of contradictions:

      1) you accuse Yeshua heaping vitriol upon those who questioned him. The disciples asked Him many things and He always responded but to those who wanted to corner Him he did not let them with reason for if He had He would have made them a disfavour. For the Lord rebuke those who he loves. In contrast, It appears that your are the one full of vitriol upon the Messiah of Israel. That is bad for you and sad to see how can a soul can loose her sense for the imagination of their heart.

      2) you accuse Yeshua of violating Shabbat when He is the author of Shabbat and knows pretty well what was the purpose of Shabbat. The way you see Shabbat is that you make an idol of it for Shabbat was made for men not men for Shabbat.

      3) you idealize Moses and Aaron and the rabbis being just men. They were not obedient in all and in small things for not even the angels according to Tanakh are perfect in that sense. Therefore get back to reality and our reality on Earth is not the world of perfection. The Tanakh teach us the weakness of men of God but the Lord knows it and He is merciful and when He rebukes us it is to teach us not to destroy us unless we become so wicked that He can not stand us anymore.

      Actually because of the Messiah His Son Beloved, the Mercy is much more present than in the time of Moses or the pre-Flood. Imagine all the sins in the world today and the hand of God still has not destroyed us. The Hand of Mercy and the sign of the Cross preserve us from destruction so many time. Look at the Cuban crisis of the 60s we were at the brink of a nuclear holocaust.

      I hope for you that one day you will get back to reality and see the love of the Messiah for all Humanity. Many blessings and may peace be in your hearts!

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        August 13, 2015 at 6:09 am

        Again Christian Paul your method is what is slipping you up. You are asking us all to assume without questioning that the NT and your experiences of Jesus validate his claims.

        You say that Jesus is “author of Shabbat.” That is a big claim that needs proving and testing. Moses (according to the Torah,) spoke to G-d directly and in front of the whole Israelite nation. Jesus therefore should have done at least that much in validating his own much bigger claim. Not only that, if he wants recognition, he should FINISH THE TASK.

        He only had about 82 disciples according to the NT reckoning, being the 12, and later the 70, 83 if we count Paul. Jesus spoke in parables so that even his own students questioned him all the time about his teaching’s meaning. Moreover, he gets very angry when people ask him questions, even gets angry at Peter for saying “heaven forbid that you should die.”

        Are we to place blind trust in such a person’s claims? Jesus says “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed,” the Torah of Moses says, Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might KNOW that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

        AT the burning bush, Moses says to G-d, “they will not believe me when I tell them you sent me.” G-d says, Exodus 3:12 “And God said, “I will be with you. And THIS WILL BE THE SIGN TO YOU that it is I who have sent you: WHEN YOU HAVE BROUGHT THE PEOPLE OUT OF EGYPT, you[b] will worship God on this mountain.” What does it mean “you will worship G-d on this mountain.”? Exodus 19:9 tells us. “The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.”

        G-d plainly says that Moses is proved by his completion of the task of the redemption from slavery in Egypt, and by his leading Israel to the mountain where all the people will see G-d talk to Moses. On the mountain, the nation sees G-d speak with Moses directly. It’s not a matter of faith, but of being shown to know that Moses was sent by G-d.

        Jesus changed the terms of Israel’s understanding of G-d.

        Reply
      • Jim says:

        August 13, 2015 at 9:50 am

        C. Paul,

        Merely asserting that one is Lord of the Sabbath does not make it so. It is obvious from Matthew 12 that he is not the Lord of the Sabbath. If he were, his disciples would have been scrupulous in its observance. One does not take that law lightly in the presence of the king. Moreover, Jesus makes irrelevant arguments regarding the Sabbath, as we have already shown (and you have been unable to counter). His is not a Torah mind. He is clearly not its Author. Just saying he is does not make it so.

        Regarding your third point, that I idealize Moses and Aaron, this comes from you misreading what I wrote. I did not claim that they were perfect. I wrote nothing about them being sinless. In fact, they were not my topic. The topic was whether or not the details of the commandments matter or if consideration of small violations is mere nit-picking. And Torah makes clear that it is not nit-picking. It mentions several times that they did everything as God commanded them.

        But it is interesting that you claim that it is obvious that they could not be sinless. You mention even that the angels are not perfect. Anything created is imperfect then. So with Jesus. He was a man, just like they were. You actually write that they and the rabbis were “just men” implying that human beings are imperfect. So with Jesus; he was just a man. You not only idealize him. You idolize him, literally. You have taken a man, imperfect like the rest of us, and attributed perfection to him. But your own argument shows that you should not have done so. He could not be God. He was only a man.

        Jim

        Reply
        • ChristianPaul says:

          August 13, 2015 at 12:09 pm

          Hi Jim! Peace to you!

          Yeshua is the salvation of God! The arm of God can not be imperfect! If the Son of God took our flesh it is for us to become truly perfect and holy for He alone is Holy and Perfect. Why His Humanity is perfect and Holy for where God is fully nothing unholy can be and where God moves nothing can be imperfect.

          Your error comes from your misunderstanding of the God taking our Humanity in the Union of the Divine Person of His Son. This confers to the Humanity of the Christ perfection and holiness incommensurately more than the holy temple. Therefore the Incarnation of the Son was meant to be for us to become truly holy and perfect like our Father commanded so in the Torah.

          Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!

          Reply
          • Jim says:

            August 13, 2015 at 12:30 pm

            C. Paul,

            Endless reiteration is not proof. Mere assertion that Jesus is divine does not make it so. Why not just admit that you cannot prove it, that you believe it despite having no good reason to do so?

            Jim
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 13, 2015 at 12:49 pm

            Jim Shalom!

            The proof are endless in the Tanakh to those who have the Faith to see. But unbelief has pull out the seed of Faith from you in order for you not to see. That is your destiny, the mystery of unbelief and unlawfulness.

            Our Law is the Son of God we are the princes of the other world like promises in psalm 45, we believe in Him we are justified by Him and we are sanctified by His Spirit, bless is He who come in the name of YHWH:

            13 The royal daughter is all glorious within the palace;
            Her clothing is woven with gold.
            14 She shall be brought to the King in robes of many colors;
            The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to You.
            15 With gladness and rejoicing they shall be brought;
            They shall enter the King’s palace.

            16 Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
            Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
            17 I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
            Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.

            May the truth prevail in all!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 13, 2015 at 5:07 pm

            It is true the Xtian uses “faith” for his belief, which is a blind acknowledgment and certainly not, as in Hebrew, Emunah.
50. Concerned Reader says:

    August 13, 2015 at 10:43 am

    Christian Paul, if I may ask you a deep question.

    If, in the future someone comes who appears to you to be a human like yourself, if he says to you, “I have the authority to forgive your sins, to work miracles, raise the dead, and grant life eternal” would you believe him why or why not?

    If this man you saw was injured to the point of dying (say in a car accident) and he later came back to life, would this prove to you that he was G-d and had the authority to forgive sins why or why not?

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 13, 2015 at 12:32 pm

      Peace Con!

      1) No! Because there is only One Messiah Yeshua Elohim!
      2) No! “To the point of dying” is not dying for three days like in Yonas sign. Plus many witnesses must have saw him died. Plus you would have to validate the witnesses who saw him resurrect. Plus signs of His Resurrection and his Power must have been transmitted to those witnesses to prove their claim. Plus conversion from a state of sin to a state of grace must have been followed. Plus the establishment of a durable witness in his Body must have existed through time.

      Faith is not being credible but a real manifestation of God power in the life of men! Like in Sinai!

      Many blessings and may truth prevail in all!

      Reply
      • Sharbano says:

        August 13, 2015 at 5:05 pm

        You always call it messiah, so he isn’t the one G-d speaks of. HIS Mashiach has a Hebrew meaning which is, being smeared with oil. Was Jsus ever anointed with oil. Ergo, he is NOT Mashiach.

        Reply
    • eric krakofsky says:

      August 21, 2015 at 7:31 pm

      Con, “If this man you saw was injured to the point of dying (say in a car accident) and he later came back to life, would this prove to you that he was G-d and had the authority to forgive sins why or why not?”

      Coming to jesus is based on more than just ” I come to him but I do not know why’.
      John 6;44 says “.No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45″It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.…

      I also wonder whom that verse shall include;
      “I REVEALED myself to those who did not ask for me; I WAS FOUND by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’”
      Luke 2:29-31
      since jews do not mix themselves with the nations and claim they know God , God is not speaking about them here.

      Reply
      • Saul Goodman says:

        August 22, 2015 at 1:34 am

        Luke 2:29-31
        “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; …;

        I don’t get what is your version of Luke 2:29-31?

        And as far as Isaiah 65:1 is concerned, it is abou the rebellious Nation of Israel. I don’t know why you have to bring the nations in, since they are not refered at all in the verse.

        Reply
51. Jim says:

    August 13, 2015 at 11:05 am

    Eric,

    You have continued to make a standard for testing prophecy that Torah does not establish. Deuteronomy 13 does not say anything about if one who teaches idolatry is killed and then comes back, this is a sign that it was not really idolatry. In fact, one must know the definition of idolatry before applying the death penalty in the first place. Nothing regarding that definition would change because someone came back from the dead.

    Let us imagine a new case. Let us say that a man comes along and says that we are to worship the sun. You and I know (I hope) that it is forbidden to worship the sun. He is performing miracles, however, and many people start worshiping the sun. So, we take him to court and he receives capital punishment. Only, he does not stay dead. Would you now say that we should worship the sun? You know it is forbidden, but the man came back. Well, you should not worship the sun, even if he came back. Worshiping the sun is prohibited, regardless of whether it is taught by a man who died and came back or not. That it is an act of idolatry is already known to us. We need no further sign.

    And your sign is not compelling anyway. When God wanted the people to know that Moses was His chosen mouthpiece, He granted them all revelation. In Exodus 19, God tells Moses that the reason for the Sinai revelation is that now the people will know to believe in Moses. There will be no question that he speaks the words of God.

    But when God wants people, according to you, to believe on Jesus for eternal life, there is no public revelation. This is done in private. A few people are supposed to have seen Jesus, and then, after Jesus has gone from the Earth, they tell people about it. This is no sign whatsoever.

    Your compelling case that one should accept Jesus’ message because he came back from the dead is unsubstantiated. The whole thing is like me telling you that I am friends with the president. You find this dubious, of course. So one day I tell you that the president is at my house and you should come over and see him. When you get there, however, I say you just missed him. He had to go; you know the president is a very busy man. But he told me to tell you, “Hi.” Would you call this proof, that I tell you that you just missed him? I hope not.

    Same thing with Christianity. Those who propounded belief in Jesus performed this same trick. They did not tell anyone that he came back from the dead until 47 days after the resurrection, and not until after Jesus was gone. It is as if he just left, but he says, “Hi!” This is obviously not proof at all. One cannot say that this proves Jesus’ message was right, because out of sight he came back from the dead. “Really. Take our word for it. He cannot come to you, himself, however, because he just left.”

    So, when you write that Jesus’ resurrection counters Deuteronomy 13, because the false prophet is supposed to stay dead, recognize that this is not compelling. It is a useless argument, because even the NT admits that Jesus did not come out publicly. He made a few private appearances (in intimate venues), supposedly, and then slipped away. And then his disciples claimed that he came back. This is not proof. One cannot turn away from Torah on this. One cannot direct his worship to a man on this. One must keep his eyes firmly on his Creator, his God, his King, and not replace Him with an idol based on empty claims.

    Jim

    Reply
52. Jim says:

    August 13, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Eric,

    Some time ago, you and I briefly discussed whether or not the Pharisees were trustworthy. You wrote that they are not, which started the conversation. If I recall correctly, one thing you held against them was that they covered up the resurrection of Jesus, according to Matthew. This proved to you just how treacherous they were. I pointed out that Matthew was not trustworthy, drawing as proof his abuse of the holy words of HaShem. You were unable to answer this charge. You wrote something about the other books of the NT being in existence as well and Matthew (and John) speaking for itself. This, of course, does not establish that Matthew is trustworthy. You found it outrageous that I would take your lack of defense as an admission that Matthew was not trustworthy. Meanwhile, without any evidence, you have determined that the Pharisees are not trustworthy, on the say-so of a man whom you could not defend. Now, as I mentioned before, Matthew does not write that the Pharisees paid the guards. It was the chief priest and elders, which I mention only for accuracy (because you and I both know that someone will claim that I do not know the story, if I get a detail wrong.) I propose that we briefly examine Matthew’s story and see if it is credible. Once we examine it, we will see that Matthew is untrustworthy, fabricating stories to malign his opponents.

    When you read Matthew 28:11-15, you should notice something exceedingly strange about the entire story. A huge question should come into your mind when you read that they paid the soldiers to say that the disciples stole Jesus away. I do not mean the question that is so often asked, about how the guards would be able to admit that they fell asleep on duty without being killed for it, although that is a good question. I do not even mean how the guards could be expected to testify to an event that they are supposed to have slept through, although that is also good. No, there is a huge question that reveals how the whole story is a lie, that Matthew made it up. Think for a minute.

    How did they know that Jesus was not going to show himself publicly?

    Think about it. I’ll wait.

    The chief priests and elders have just heard that Jesus is going to come back. They have no idea what he will do. They do not know that he is going to ascend to heaven in forty days. But the story shows that they expect never to see him. Why is that?

    Well, the answer is obvious. This story was fabricated by Matthew much later. Jesus never made any public appearances. But the Jewish leadership could not know that was going to happen. Yet they did not worry at all what he was going to do. Instead, they somehow knew in advance that they could say the disciples took him. This makes no sense. They should have been expecting him to appear. They could not bribe the guards on the day that Jesus resurrected to say the disciples took Jesus, because nobody knew that he was not going to show up.

    This story only makes sense after the disciples begin publicizing the resurrection but have no Jesus to prove it. It is only then that the accusation of the Jewish leaders that the disciples stole the body would make any sense. But according to the NT, this happened 47 days later than the plotting of the chief priests and elders. The Jewish leadership did not know that Jesus was not going to show himself, so the story they hatched does not make sense at day three after his death. The claim that the disciples took the body presumes that they know that there is no Jesus to show.

    Matthew’s story is a fabrication. He overlooked the fact that the Jewish leadership would not know what Jesus was going to do. His story reflects the idea that the claim of his resurrection was made without evidence, without an actual resurrected Jesus. It is a neat trick he has pulled. He has made the Jewish leadership look like hypocrites and tried to establish them as witnesses to the resurrection. But he clearly invented this story, overlooking that their behavior is not consistent with those who believed that a man back from the dead could present himself. Their behavior is consistent with people who know that the disciples will claim he came back and then disappeared.

    Let’s be frank. Matthew lied. He made up a story about the Jewish leadership to cover up the lack of Christian proof and malign critics of Christianity.

    In fact, if you pay careful attention, you can see he has pulled another trick. He is trying to establish the timeline by attributing it to his critics. See, the disciples did not announce the resurrection until long after Jesus was supposed to come back. Now, I am not saying that the disciples stole Jesus’ body out of the grave, but they had much more than three days in which to do it, if they wanted to. They could have taken it at day 47. It is likely that he invented the story of the guards, to give the appearance that Jesus was back by day three, as he was supposed to be. It is a real problem that his resurrection is not publicized until day 50 and that he is not there to do it. So, Matthew invents a story about guards. He makes his opponents look like liars and hypocrites, while making them appear to testify to his story.

    In fact, you can see how useless guards would be. The guards are only going to be posted for a few days. So, whenever they leave, that’s when you take the body (if you were going to.) And then you just make up a story about how the guards were paid off or whatever story you like. The guards are useless.

    It is clear that Matthew is not trustworthy. His accusations against the Pharisees should not be trusted. His accusations against the chief priests and elders are obvious fabrications. His abuse of scripture shows that he is disinterested in truth and would distort even the words of Tanach if it suited him. His accusations are not to be believed.

    Jim

    Reply
    • ChristianPaul says:

      August 13, 2015 at 2:38 pm

      Jim Shalom!

      You can not have it both ways. The chief priests were not Pharisees. The Pharisees were with the chief priests before Pilate both not when the guard came back only the chief priests were there. Read carefully before your unfunded accusation. Here is the text:

      11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day. (Matthew 28)

      The party in power were not the Pharisee but the Sadducee and this party did NOT believe in the Resurrection. They certainly did not think that the Messiah will appear to them. They were firm non-believer in the Resurrection. Note that in Matthew 28 contrary to Matthew 27 (before Pilate request to post guards to protect the body) the Pharisees do not appear in the text. Why? Think about it! Yes you see your argument just crumbled on again!

      Peace and many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!

      Reply
      • Jim says:

        August 13, 2015 at 3:12 pm

        C. Paul,

        I did not say that the Chief Priests were the Pharisees. I can see why you were confused, however. I was referencing an earlier conversation with Eric, and he said that the Pharisees covered up the resurrection, if I recall correctly. You’ll notice that I corrected this in a parenthetical note in the first paragraph. You’ll also note that I mentioned that someone would claim I did not know the story if I did not fix this detail. But without being aware of the first conversation, I can see why you might think I conflated the two.

        What I cannot understand is how you miss the point of the whole comment afterward. The chief priests and elders just heard that Jesus came back from the dead. They believe he is back. But they bribe the guards to say that the disciples carried him off. This is unthinkable. Why? Because if they say this, Jesus just has to show up publicly. They have no way of knowing that he will skulk about.

        Of course, it is obvious after the fact that he is not going to present himself. After the fact, when the disciples have admitted that Jesus is not with them, but they are telling people that Jesus is alive, the chief priests and elders could pay someone to say that the disciples carried off the body. But that is some time later. It is almost seven weeks after the guards told them that Jesus had come back.

        So, let us think. Eric says that the Pharisees are untrustworthy because Matthew says they are hypocrites, vipers, and the like. He says that the chief priests and elders (I think he said Pharisees, but its a small error; we get what he means) are not trustworthy, because Matthew wrote that they bribed the guards. But Eric did not properly consider whether or not Matthew was reliable. Matthew begins his account by misrepresenting the prophets. He ends it with an obvious fabrication about the chief priests and elders. Are we to believe that he is trustworthy? No. So, I shall not write off the Pharisees due to the Matthew’s testimony. He calls them hypocrites and vipers. But he also lies obviously about his opponents and about scripture. Matthew is untrustworthy, not the Pharisees.

        Jim

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 13, 2015 at 3:26 pm

          In Matthew 23, Jesus ordered his disciples and the whole crowd to obey the pharisees. So Jesus is asking Christians to obey untrustworthy people. Makes sense? Matthew is a very confused author.

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 14, 2015 at 8:17 am

            Hello Saul

            You are again in error with this text. This is not a verse written by confusion, but it is read by confusion.

            The point Jesus is making is to obey the Law as THE LAW IS WRITTEN, but not has The Pharisees actually do. If you read more than one verse you will see this.

            The problem non believers have is with Jesus and His attitude towards the Law. You will see here that Jesus is saying “obey the Pharisees” because they are quoting the Law. And the Law must be obeyed. But Jesus us stating do has Moses says, but not to do as the Pharisees do.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 14, 2015 at 8:21 am

            Hi Paul

            You are in denial. Jesus said:

            The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:

            3 all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, these do and observe

            This is nothing about doing the law. This is about obeying the pharisees. Just like the sign of Jonah, you ae simply denying the verses, changing the words written. It is not a good sign.
      • Saul Goodman says:

        August 13, 2015 at 3:22 pm

        How did you refute Jim’s argument?

        Reply
        • Paul summers says:

          August 14, 2015 at 8:06 am

          Hello Saul

          You are in error with the idea that Jesus said He would appear to the pharisees after the resurrection, ie 3 days later.

          Math ch 12, is what the NT teaches about the unpardonable sin. This was a major pivotal point in Jesus ministry, and definitely a turning point in Israels history.

          Jesus had been rejected on the claims He was demon possessed. From thst point onwards the offer of the kingdom had been recinded.

          Jesus had no intention ever to present Himself to the unbelievers just after the event. Why would He?? That point of authentication had passed. I made this same point with the teaching of the rich man and the beggar in Abrahams bosom.

          There are 3 signs of the resurrection though.

          1. Lazurus.
          2. Christ.
          3. The two witnesses in Revelation, that bring in the times of Israels salvation.

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 14, 2015 at 8:18 am

            Hi Paul,

            Jesus said it clearly:

            38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” 39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

            The pharisees and Scribes want to see the sign. They want to see it. For them to see the sign, they must see Jesus 3 days afte his death.And Jesus said he will give them this sign. But Jesus didn’t show up 3 days later.
          • Paul summers says:

            August 14, 2015 at 2:04 pm

            Hello Saul

            I have to disagree here.

            Jesus said, “this wicked generation seeks a sign, no sign will be given. Apart from the sign of Jonah. ”

            You have to see this truth on the whole, it’s not a simple black and white issue.

            First its NOT a sign to “prove” His claims. (Did you see my comment on the rich man? ?)
            In other words it would have been futile, and totally against the teaching of faith, and especially since the unpardonable sin could not be revoked.

            That was a point of no return for Israel on a national basis at this moment in time. The resurrection proof to the non believers would go contary to Gods plans. The proof is now future, at some point after the church age.

            Secondly, when Jesus is speaking about Jonah, Jesus is not just talking about a period of days and nights as a comparison. He is also comparing what hapoened to Jonah.

            Jonah died and went to sheol. When Jesus Died He went to sheol to “proclaim the good news, that the Son of Man had done what His Father had promised to do way back in Gen 3.15. To conquer the consequences of sin, which is death.

            Jonah was resurrected.

            That goods new here in context is not the good news that saves, but a proclamation to sheol that The Christ is who He says He is, the saviour who has saved etc.

            That full revelation of the resurrection for the Jew is still future in the 7 yr Tribulation, when Israel comes to repentance.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 14, 2015 at 4:57 pm

            That’s really ‘convenient’, “Oh, it will be in the future”.
            Where do you come with the idea Yonah went to sheol and was resurrected. Another twisting of the text.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 14, 2015 at 2:21 pm

            Hi Paul Peace to you!

            Thank you for your contribution with Eric! You two are strong defender of the Faith. May the Holy One bless you now and forever!

            If I may add a Scriptural reference to your post, Revelation 11 will respond to Rabbi and Saul about the sign of Yonas:

            “7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

            11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.” (Revelation11)
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 14, 2015 at 6:44 pm

            The sign of Jonah is clear, you guyz simply make things up. Let’s go back to the text:

            “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”.”

            For this to be a sign to be seen by the scribes and pharisees, Jesus has to show up after those 3 days and nights, but he never did it. You try to cover it up without even touching upon the relevent text.
    • eric krakofsky says:

      August 14, 2015 at 12:40 pm

      Jim, You are a genius in manipulation. I will show you why below . But shortly about your story. First we will ask ourselves a question what case did Jim open and based on what arguments? There will be some arguments discussed here like unbelief of the leaders which prove nothing and the conclusions that Matthews seemed to fabricate the story and based on Jims one sided assumption how the events in chapter 28 look unrealistic to him so concluding the gospel is just a ‘ fabrication’ and probably the resurrection din not happened. In your story which seems also as if an author felt in his points to be insecure to have a need to support his points ( before he even discussed them) by lots of ‘ this is a lie, this is a fabrication to make sure a reader will get the ‘right’ feeling about it.

      Well I will tell you nobody builds upon the leaders’ beliefs whether they knew or expected Jesus to raise back to life whether not! Second, nobody builds just on Matthew, as life of Jesus and death and resurrections and his interactions after that with his disciples and others are recorded not just by Matthew but John, Luke, Mark, and in all epistles and acts.

      Let’s ask the question what your points are trying to prove here?? Nothing.

      “I do not mean the question that is so often asked, about how the guards would be able to admit that they fell asleep on duty without being killed for it, although that is a good question. ”

      We will have to start with v 64. where the leaders ask for guarding the tomb TILL THE THIRD DAY ( that will also answer your question regarding how long the guards were supposed to wait there). So whose business was what happened after? Definitely not Romans’ who would NOT care keeping their guards forever just in case some Jesus ‘decided’ to raise back, or just in case his body would be stolen on the 4th and on some other day.

      Then reading v 11-14 you see that the offered explanation ( about stolen body during guards sleep) is not directly offered to Romans but first discussed among the leaders ( v11 who were reported the truth)
      Matthew 28;11″some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done ”

      ” And in case the governor hears…( in CASE he hears) we will put things right with him(…) Does it sound like impossible situation? Whose business was ‘dead’ Jesus ? Romans;’ or Jews?? Did Romans have interest in guarding the tomb or Jews? Whose idea was that? Whose request? Whose matter? Romans gave them a favor , to do away with a problem, but not to worry about the outcome to the skin and blood.
      Solution was already prepared’ ” we will put things right with him..” v 14 another words if we
      ( jews) do not worry about his stolen body , you should not either.

      Another point that proves nothing; whether leaders worried the resurrection will happen or not;
      ” the story shows that they expected never to see him.” your speculation added. And again what does it prove? and whether they really didn’t expect anything?
      “But the Jewish leadership could not know that was going to happen. Yet they did not worry at all what he was going to do.”
      Really?? So why to secure the tomb exactly till the 3 day, while you can stole the body any time after, on the 4th day on ,so what?? Guards were set just for 3 days. If the body remained there past the 3rd day , this is what they only needed to see, what would happen after that day was not in their interest as any other day with Jesus being dead or stolen body etc would satisfy their belief that He didn’t rose back as he said on the 3rd day. ( reminder v 64 order set to guard the tomb till day 3)

      “His story reflects the idea that the claim of his resurrection was made without evidence,”- adding his statement which is a lie in itself . I am so sorry but we have the least interest to build upon the witness you are suggesting Jim, which proved themselves throughout the gospels as untrustworthy and hypocritical people.

      “Jesus never made any public appearances.” why ?, because Jim says so. Keep your story for your some other audience who just want to buy it. Read all gospels and acts and prove that none of the persons mentioned ever saw Jesus then come back. But do not sell your one sided Jim’s assumption based on your skeptic – loaded speculations.

      The last point , why could Matthew be a fabrication?
      Based on the story? Because Jim said so.
      But I would suggest him to consider between the following;
      Reasons why Matthew could wrote the gospel?
      -He decided to write a fiction.
      -He write about true facts that happened.
      -He wrote about true events but dis formed the true events. Only for what sake?
      First reason or last looks like the most Jim’ type. But with the first case we would have to explain who the others wanted to write a similar fiction themselves including acts. And why we all have peace with God while acknowledging Jesus as His son? Ah, but yes, that’s feelings, that’s emotions etc. Anyways I suppose the last reason will suit you the best. But if Matthew’ goal was to write about a false prophet to look as true, he would have no interest to ‘portray’ the leaders as the opposition, but rather as the supporters of the events to gain the better public to believe him. How much more he would gain if he saw there all the leaders accepted Jesus as the Messiah?

      If I didn’t cover all your points it;’s because they didn’t seem relevant or just a useless to focus on to much.

      Reply
53. ChristianPaul says:

    August 13, 2015 at 4:10 pm

    Jim and Saul Peace to you!

    I understand your confusion about Matthew for you try to picture what happen 40 years later the event. The Gospel was written for the community of believers like the Torah was written much later centuries after the event took place for the community of believers. You do not question the Torah but you question the Gospels. Two scales to judge!

    Now Matthew recount what was taught to the Jews about Yeshua Resurrection. Sadducee did not believe in the Resurrection therefore they were not afraid that Yeshua will appear they taught what the think. Strangely in Matthew 28 the Pharisees who believe in the Resurrection do not appear in Matthew 28. Why? Surely some of them converted and many were silenced because they knew what happened. They were wondering. Like how preeminent Pharisees converted to the Faith:

    1) Nicodemus
    2) Josef d’Arimathiya
    3) Even much later Gamaliel the well known Pharisee:

    “Ecclesiastical tradition maintains that Gamaliel had embraced the Christian faith and his tolerant attitude toward the Early Christians is explained by this. According to Photius, he was baptized by Saint Peter and Saint John, together with his son Abibo (Abibas, Abibus) and Nicodemus.
    …
    The Eastern Orthodox Church venerates Gamaliel as a saint, where he is commemorated on August 2, the date when tradition holds that his relics were found, along with those of Stephen the Protomartyr, Abibas (Gamaliel’s son), and Nicodemus.”

    But the best proof lies in James the Brother of Yeshua who was known even now by all the party of Pharisees as James the Just. The same James who did not believe Yeshua during his ministry but who converted and believed when He saw Him Resurrected.

    “7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” (1Corinthians 15)

    Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      August 13, 2015 at 5:42 pm

      Where do you get this that the Torah was written centuries later. It says right in Torah that Moshe was writing it down and he also wrote a Sefer Torah for all the tribes.
      Obviously you do not have knowledge of the Torah of Moshe.
      Your ignorance of Torah is even more compounded by your assertion of R’ Gamliel.

      Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 13, 2015 at 6:16 pm

      Hi Christian,

      “The Gospel was written for the community of believers like the Torah was written much later centuries after the event took place for the community of believers. You do not question the Torah but you question the Gospels. Two scales to judge!”

      I didn’t even adress this issue. To put words into your opponent’s mouth is not a sign of honnesty. But as Sharbano wrote, Moses wrote the Torah himself. Only Genesis has been written centuries after the events described therein. But it was written by Moses. Not an unknown greek author. In fact, the worst, is that the Early Church Holy Tradition is that Matthew was first written in hebrew, and a translation was done of it in greek. Wich means, what we have today, is the translation of a copy of the original Matthew. Very bad for its credibility.

      ” Surely some of them converted and many were silenced because they knew what happened. They were wondering.”

      You are making stuff up. If you have no evidence of it, do not say anything.

      “Like how preeminent Pharisees converted to the Faith:…

      “3) Even much later Gamaliel the well known Pharisee:

      “Ecclesiastical tradition maintains that Gamaliel had embraced the Christian faith and his tolerant attitude toward the Early Christians is explained by this. According to Photius, he was baptized by Saint Peter and Saint John, together with his son Abibo (Abibas, Abibus) and Nicodemus.
      …
      The Eastern Orthodox Church venerates Gamaliel as a saint, where he is commemorated on August 2, the date when tradition holds that his relics were found, along with those of Stephen the Protomartyr, Abibas (Gamaliel’s son), and Nicodemus.””

      This is a nice wikipedia copy and paste. I see you do not have first or second hand knowledge of the Christian Orthodox Church but wikipedia. Hilarious. Now, you do not have any proof that Gamaliel ever became Christian. This belief is in fact based on the pseudo clementine litterature:

      “The Clementine Recognitions resemble the Homilies and the narrative goes over much of the same ground, with additional details about the vicissitudes of various members of Clement’s family and their reunion after their ‘recognition’ (hence the title) by Peter.(3) Two Greek Epitomes of the above. They are evidently later and introduce an account of Clement’s martyrdom.It is generally thought that the Homilies and Recognitions depend on a common lost source, which probably dated from the early 3rd cent. The Homilies belong to the 4th cent. and betray Arian sympathies. The Recognitions appear to be later; they survive mainly in a Latin translation by Rufinus.” http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095617141

      What a nice source for such belief.

      “But the best proof lies in James the Brother of Yeshua who was known even now by all the party of Pharisees as James the Just. The same James who did not believe Yeshua during his ministry but who converted and believed when He saw Him Resurrected.”

      Rabbi Akkiva thought Bah Kohba was Messiah. So what? Silly argument. Furthermore, we would need to trust Paul and trust that the epistle of James was really written by James. A lot of things for you to prove and explain.

      Reply
      • Dina says:

        August 13, 2015 at 7:07 pm

        Hey,Chris, copying and pasting from other sources without attribution is plagiarism.

        Reply
54. Concerned Reader says:

    August 13, 2015 at 4:55 pm

    Christian Paul, if I may ask you a deep question.

    If, in the future someone comes who appears to you to be a human like yourself, if he says to you, “I have the authority to forgive your sins, to work miracles, raise the dead, and grant life eternal” would you believe him why or why not?

    If this man you saw was injured to the point of dying (say in a car accident) and he later came back to life, would this prove to you that he was G-d and had the authority to forgive sins why or why not?

    Peace Con!

    1) No! Because there is only One Messiah Yeshua Elohim!

    According to the plain sense of the Tanakh Christian Paul, no man and no son of man should have trust placed in them for salvation. Psalm 146:3, NO MAN according to the Torah is divine, but is only human, even if they do the works of G-d. Ezekiel 28:2. Even if there is a recognized manifestation of G-d recognized in the Torah, such as the burning bush, the manifestation is never supposed to become an object of worship or service alongside G-d, or in and of itself. 2 Kings 18:4, Deuteronomy 4:19.

    So, all that said, you now come along and say, NO MAN (EXCEPT JESUS) is G-d. No Man (Except Jesus) should be trusted in for salvation. Now, since the Tanakh says, “no man at all period” and you say “no man but Jesus,’ who should I listen to, the tanakh or you?

    2) No! “To the point of dying” is not dying for three days like in Yonas sign. Plus many witnesses must have saw him died. Plus you would have to VALIDATE the witnesses who saw him resurrect.

    So you would say we would need evidence from people other than this person’s students? How would you validate a witness?

    Plus signs of His Resurrection and his Power must have been transmitted to those witnesses to prove their claim. Plus conversion from a state of sin to a state of grace must have been followed. Plus the establishment of a durable witness in his Body must have existed through time.

    A durable witness as in proof of godliness being practiced in obedience to all G-d’s mitzvot?

    Faith is not being credible but a real manifestation of God power in the life of men! Like in Sinai!

    Many blessings and may truth prevail in all!
    Reply

    Reply
55. Concerned Reader says:

    August 14, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    Paul Summers, if proof of Jesus’ legitimacy wont come until “after the Church age” and your own religion also clearly teaches people not to accept other claimants who make similar claims to deity, miracles, Resurrection, the forgiveness of sin, and life eternal, UNLESS ITS JESUS how can you blame Jews who say no to accepting your claims? Your effectively saying that Jesus has no proof, but to take the Churches word for it on faith. The Torah doesn’t allow acceptance of this claim.

    Reply
56. Concerned Reader says:

    August 14, 2015 at 4:09 pm

    Jesus had no intention ever to present Himself to the unbelievers just after the event. Why would He?? That point of authentication had passed.

    Paul, this then illustrates the extreme difference between Moses and Jesus. You are saying that Jesus didn’t have to prove anything to his doubters. Moses however, embraced his doubters, had doubts himself, and only expected obedience after completing his task. Is it any wonder people don’t accept what you preach?

    Reply
    • Concerned Reader says:

      August 14, 2015 at 4:10 pm

      So much for the idea of coming to save the “sinners.”

      Reply
      • Paul summers says:

        August 15, 2015 at 4:19 am

        Hello CR

        Jesus didnt just reject those objectors there and then thoughout His ministry as such. He proclaimed the Kingdom of God, through approximately 3.5 yrs.
        When challanged etc, He would authenticate His words and works.

        To say that Moses embraced Israel is true. He interceded for them, lead them, taught them etc. However Moses contented with Israel and them with him. Moses though fell and disobeyed God at some point. Jesus had issues with some of the nation and them with Him.
        However………..

        If you compare Jesus and Moses, the main point of difference is that Jesus never failed.

        Math ch 12, as I stated was the turning point of Jesus Ministry. Jesus ministry went from tell and show all, to a policy of silence. Jesus then spoke in parables.

        If you read the gospels you can see this.

        I never meant to say The Proof will then be proved, because now its in a unproven state.

        The resurrection has already happened. Because Israel rejected Jesus authority in Math ch 12, the coming resurrection 3 days after death are NOT for the unbelievers THEN who rejected Him. ( wicked generation ) will be shown to Israel future, then they will see what happened in the past was true. That is the completed sign of Jonah.

        The sign future is a step process which God has provided through history in regard to His timeplan. For Israel as a nation. The individual Jew can come to Christ through faith, today, that is the church age. The stage or dispensation today. The future sign is for Israel not the church.

        I dont personally need to psychically see proof, I believe in Christ and His death etc. The NT scriptures and the Holy Spirit witness the truth.

        This final stage is what John is speaking about in Rev, for Israel and gentiles, but not the church.

        Finally for you to say I can’t blame Jews for not believing my claims or Jesus etc are a little odd.
        Every person on planet earth are responsible for there own condition of faith in the Lord.
        They simply either believe or disbelief according to there own hearts. What I say or do is totally irrelevant.

        God has provided the Truth, and redemption through His ways. This can seen through the Tanach, NT.

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 15, 2015 at 4:53 am

          So, basically, there is no proof of the ressurection, the sign of Jonah is not 3 days and 3 nights but 3 thoudand years. But the sign of Jonah was to be given to that generation. That generation didn’t see it. Now, maybe generation simply means race. But then it is inccorect: most of this generation has not seen anything except for the few apostles who claimed to have seen Jesus. The sign was to be given to the scribes and pharisees, yet, none of them has seen it, no are they still alive today. The real problem is this: for such a big claim, it needs big proof. At least a proof as important as the Sinai event. But instead, we have a private event, that got only proclaimed when the main guy was gone in the sky. No possibility to check the truth. This is highly problematic because it asks of us blind faith.

          “If you compare Jesus and Moses, the main point of difference is that Jesus never failed.”

          Fail in doing… what?

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 15, 2015 at 5:32 am

            Hello Saul

            You need to read my comment again.

            Jesus made it very clear that He Himself would be resurrected after 3 days and nights.
            This event, which is well recorded in the texts happened just as Jesus said it would.

            Yes the disciples did see Him, plus several plus hundred. As recorded. It wasnt thousands of years later but merely days. As prophecy stated.

            The then resurrection Christ wasn’t for the un believers who rejected Him. His apperance was for the Church age, not the Un remnant of Israel. That rejection had happened and was technically impossible to be undone. Thats why the Pharisees were not shown the resurrection. The Just shall live by faith.
            Like I stated, there was on there part no faith. That boat had long sailed as it were.

            When you see Jesus riding into Jerusalem, just prior to His death, the crowds are proclaiming His Kingship. If you read the text, Jesus is quite sorrowful. Why? ????

            Because He knows thst Israel has a nation have rejected Him, and the Kingdom which is coming for Israel, is now along way off. Its comings yes, but not UNTILL the sign of Jonah is realised, manny years to come.

            The rejection of Christ in Math ch 12, brings on the final judgement on that generation with the prediction of Israels fall, world dispersal and the temple destruction.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 16, 2015 at 9:35 am

            Jsus also said that the generation he was speaking to would see the return of the kingdom.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 15, 2015 at 4:24 pm

            Hi Paul,

            The problem is that you do not deal with the text on the sign of Jonah. You keep repeating it was not for the pharisees, but the text says the opposite. You simply ignore the text to write a different story. The sign was to be given to the scribes and pharisees. Jesus promised it, and didn’t fullfill it. Unless you can deal with the text, this point stands.
          • Paul summers says:

            August 16, 2015 at 5:04 am

            Hello Saul

            I thought I had dealt with the texts in question? I had dealt with the immediate context and there scriptual significance.

            My answers are based are what the texts teach. You incorrectly assume that Jesus us saying ” in three days time I will present myself to you”.

            Well indirectly one could say He did, the news of the tomb and the rock etc were told to them. Three days later they were not ignorant to the rumours.

            However that is NOT the thread of my argument.

            I have presented my view, you likewise. Im sure we will have to leave it there.
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 15, 2015 at 10:11 pm

          Paul I would say that the main difference between Jesus and Moses is that Jesus never succeeded

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 16, 2015 at 4:46 am

            Hello YFP

            Of course not God never fails.

            Jesus came to do the works that His Father sent to Him to do. He came, proclaimed the Kingdom, healed the sick, raised the dead, fed the poor, cast out demons, taught scripture, showed love and compassion on society who consquectenly had been rejected.

            He came to be rejected, mocked, spat at, scourged, beaten and ultimately killed at the hands of sinful man, for the sins of man.

            He came to be buried and ressureccted the third day. He came to be glorified in a glorified condition, and then a ascend back to which He came.

            He came to baptise believers in the Holy Spirit, He came to build His church.

            He came to be rejected, but that rejection is not final, because He promised Israel through Ambraham that Israel will one day come to saving knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Living Son of the Living God.

            Then Israel will be restored and Gloriously rule alongside Messiah.

            Satan will be finally destroyed, and the heavens and the new earth will be eternal.

            I would say that is success compared to Moses.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 16, 2015 at 6:26 am

            Paul Jesus tried to be the Messiah predicted by the Jewish prophets – he failed miserably. After his failure – and only after his abject failure – did his followers redefine the role of the Messiah in order to be able to consider him a “success” Its like a sports team who loses a game and after they lose the game they change the rules – but they say that the rules are only changed for the game they lost – the next game they are going to win according to the old rules
          • Sharbano says:

            August 16, 2015 at 9:42 am

            To “build” What church. Xtians will say that all those atrocities over the centuries show they weren’t “real Xtians”. Are they then the real church and real Xtians.
            Where did G-d tell Abraham that a messiah would die for mankind’s sin, and the rest. You have to get that from Eisegesis manipulation of the text.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 16, 2015 at 9:21 am

            Hi Paul. I think your comment is is very symbolic of Jesus failure. You write:

            “He came, proclaimed the Kingdom, healed the sick, raised the dead, fed the poor, cast out demons, taught scripture, showed love and compassion on society who consquectenly had been rejected.”

            Now, wich of these are messianc criterias? Healing the sick? Raising the dead? Casting out demons? Showing love? This is not the main task of the Messiah. The main task of the Messiah was uniting in Peace Israel and the Nations in the worship and knowledge of the only true God. Gathering the Jews, Universal Peace, Temple restoration, etc. Those things are dfinitiv messianic criterias(see Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Mishne Torah). Feeding the poor, teaching scriptures, proclaiming a kingdom, healing the sick, showing love, Rav Blumenthal fulfilled it as well. It shows more than anything why Jesus can not be the Messiah until it is proven by definitiv proofs-criterias.
57. ChristianPaul says:

    August 14, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    Hi Con! Peace to you!

    Con we are on this earth to pass a test of Faith:

    1) Adam and Eve failed the test by believing the word of the satan
    2) Everybody except Noah did not believe in God
    3) Abraham believe in the word of the Lord
    4) Isaac believed and Jacob too
    5) Moses believed in the Lord but people in bondage where not even after what happen in the Sinai, for their unbelief that they were not permitted to enter the promise land like in the time of Christ…

    Conclusion in all things the Lord demands our faith, but you dare to demand the Lord signs and wonders… This is a recipe for deceits and delusion for if you can not walk in faith like Abraham then you are not a son of Abraham.

    Only humble people walk in faith, prideful people and those who denigrates others walk according to their understanding of things… they have an high opinion of themselves. Let us be humble and let us take our example on Abraham he is our father in the Faith. He did not require what the people of bondage demanded. He just believe like infants with their parents.

    Many blessings and may the Truth always prevail!

    Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 14, 2015 at 5:27 pm

      Christian If you are looking to be humble then believe in Charlie and in Horace’s tree By the way – you accused us falsely – you lied – will you admit it?

      Reply
      • Paul summers says:

        August 16, 2015 at 9:14 am

        Hello

        Well thats an answer based purley on your view, which isn’t scriptually based.

        Jesus made the statement several times that He came to die, be resurrected and asscend back to heaven. He predicted Israels fall and the re establishment of Israel.

        His last words before His finall breath was “it is finished”, in other words the blood atonement has been made, and His work in the flesh is complete.

        If your read the olivet discourse you will see Jesus clearly talking about the signs etc of the coming of all the end. This present time is the birth pangs of the times when all things will come to pass.

        Harken unto the footsteps of the Messiah.

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 16, 2015 at 9:27 am

          Problem is it was finished long before his death:

          “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. John 17

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 16, 2015 at 3:14 pm

            Hello

            I (Jesus), have glorified you (God) on earth. Not I have been glorified by you.

            I stated that Jesus was physically glorified at the resurrection. ie a complete new body. He was The First born from the dead, the first fruits of the resurrection. Glorified.

            Jesus statement about accomplished works was His ministry. He had done all thus far, only a few hrs to go. A few hrs later “It is finished”.
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 16, 2015 at 9:44 am

          Paul You say that my statement is based “purely” on my view – Hogwash – Jesus’ own disciples who lived with him during all of his preaching career were shocked and disappointed when he died – why?

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 16, 2015 at 3:23 pm

            Hello YPF

            Yes thats 100% correct.
            They lacked faith and didn’t completely understand Jesus and His words. The NT is very clear on this.
            The human condition is frail and sinful. Jesus contested with their lack on several occasions.

            Of course there is nothing new under the sun. The exodus account is a clear teaching on this . Wouldn’t you agree?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 16, 2015 at 3:45 pm

            Paul That is the point – Moses accomplished so that even those of no faith were able to see – Jesus only “accomplished” for those who believed in him against every moral and practical consideration
        • Sharbano says:

          August 16, 2015 at 10:07 am

          Isn’t it interesting those events were not written Until after all the events took place. Convenient I would say.

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 16, 2015 at 3:30 pm

            Hello Sharbano

            Im not sure if you or I are confused here?

            “Until after all the events took place”

            I was referring to the end times, ie the rapture, tribulation, Messianic Kingdom, new heaven and earth.

            Surely these are past historic writings pre the events that have not happened as yet?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 16, 2015 at 6:56 pm

            I was referring to When the Books were written. When Jsus speaks of destruction Those words were written After the events took place.
            It would be like me predicting a great war in Israel in which they will win in 6 days. That’s just about the amount of time between the prediction and the events in the Xtian text.
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 16, 2015 at 1:02 pm

          Paul
          Please read these two articles where I spell out why your position is simply untenable
          https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/response-to-the-line-of-fire-8/
          https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/revised-messiah-excerpt-from-critique-of-vol-4/

          Reply
    • Concerned Reader says:

      August 14, 2015 at 6:17 pm

      I am not demanding any signs. I am saying the Torah and its commandments as we have them are sufficient for any person’s walk with G-d. Jews observed the commandments before Jesus, if it was enough then, why not now? Christians are adding ingredients to the relationship with G-d. Al Jews want is to remain Jews as they have always been.

      I wrote an article, here it is below

      Reasons Christians come to accept Jesus so emphatically, can’t understand why others don’t, AND WHY ITS A PROBLEM.

      1. Christians often have a “conversion experience.” Dr. Michael Brown is a perfect example. He says he was an addict and an agnstic, though he attended synagogue sporadically as a child on high holidays. After an experience of Jesus, he purportedly became devoutly religious. Christians ask themselves, “how can a seemingly godly outcome come from something thats not of G-d?”

      2. Christians presently percieve that they live in a “monotheistic” culture that used to be profoundly polytheistic. Nobody worships Zeus, thor, Hercules, etc. anymore. The change from western polytheism to monotheism purportedly came about with Christianity’s ascendance, Christians see “fulfillment” of passages to their mind, like Isaiah 42:4.

      3. Before Christian theology becomes a meaningful factor for new converts, Christians (as Neophytes) are exposed first to the ethics of Jesus, ie the golden rule, love, the rules found in Acts 15, and Jesus’ rules for ethical living found throughout the gospels. They appear to most people to be Torah based ethics, based off of the ethics for G-d fearers, even according to scholars.

      4. When Christians approach the question of theology, for validation and checking of their ideas and beliefs, they often examine the mytho-poetical aspects of Jewish traditions (midrash and mysticism) of the past to see if they can find some paralells that would possibly account for a Christian-like theology in Judaism of the past. They ask, “can I find Jews in the past who accepted ideas like mine while remaining religious Jews?”
      -philo’s Logos
      -Rambam’s active intellect, and his descriptions of Moses as having a unique prophetic connection.
      -traditions of Ascent of the righteous to heaven (enoch and Elijah) and their angelic transformations.
      -Saadiah Gaon’s Kavod Nivra as vehicle and expression of Prophetic inspiration.
      – Traditions of a possible dying, (or suffering) messianic figure.
      -an examination of the history of messianism

      When all these ideas appear to be found in Judaism in some form, Christians feel that their faith and experiences can be reconciled with the Hebrew Bible even if they can’t work out all the details, they feel vindicated. IT IS USUALLY TRUE THAT EVERYONE IS LIKELY TO BELIEVE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES OVER THE WORDS OF OTHERS.

      ANY astute reader of the above information should recognize the problem of method. Take a very careful note of the central factor that is MISSING in the Christian’s methodology for determining the truth of his faith claims, and answering this central question. HE DOES NOT EVER CONSULT HALACHA OR THE TERMS AND STIPULATIONS FOUND IN G-D’s COVENANT WITH ISRAEL! His faith is based on his perceived personal experiences of Jesus, some parallels that he sees in Jewish philosophy, mysticism, and history, and on the message received from his culture. HE LACKS the insider covenant perspective of the Jewish people who are born into an observant culture, with responsibilities to G-d’s Torah. He does not ask, “how does Christianity’s claim fit with the duty of the Jewish people to maintain scrupulous observance of all the commandments in Moses’ Torah forever?” Because the Christian is not asking the questions and seeking answers from the standpoint of Israel’s unique covenant obligations, he cannot really see why his faith doesn’t fit the Torah. In fact, to the Christians, their experience of Jesus seems to retroactively validate things in the Jewish Bible that they find too fantastic to be possible. They were brought in without consulting Torah, so they miss a crucial element in answering the question and getting the right answer.
      –

      Reply
      • Dina says:

        August 17, 2015 at 11:57 am

        Con, this is a great summary of typical Christian arguments. I heard all of them from Charles Soper, David, and you when you were a Christian. I’m going to save this. Thanks for posting it!

        Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 17, 2015 at 5:01 pm

        Peace to you Con!

        Good exposition but your conclusion forgot that for Christians the Torah is the Yeshua the Messiah the Son of God who is the Living Torah.

        Blessed are those who are thirsty and hungry for the Justice of the Kingdom for they will be satisfied. I am the accomplishment of the Law and the Prophets.He is the way the truth the life. He is God in the flesh the One who spoke to Moses at Horeb. Who eats my Resurrected Flesh and drink the Cup of Salvation will have eternal life. No man can elevate himself to the Heavens unless he humbles himself and grow in Christ to be a pure sacrifice pleasing to God and become by grace sons of God… For none can enter the heavens if he is not born again through the Ruah Holy who delivers him in Her Grace to the full stature of the Messiah to be one with Him and reign with Him…

        Judaic observances are as complex than the fiscal system. You need to be an expert lawyer to understand the Law… You need the contradicting opinions of the rabbis to navigate the Torah. Always afraid to lose or miss something… In the Messiah the Christians grows and become knowledgeable of the Torah more and more by way of spiritual growth. The more you grow the more Christ grows and accomplish the Torah in you to become like Him living torots…

        Our Religion is alive and beautiful. A real path to the Heavens. But the path of the rabbis are deceitful for no rabbis agree between each others and the burden is set to despair the humble ones. Between the Humble Master Son of YHWH and the rabbis self-righteous I will chose always the Truth for the Author of the Torah is always the one who knows and accomplish the Torah in his disciples.

        Many blessings and may the Truth prevail in all.

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 17, 2015 at 5:32 pm

          “Good exposition but your conclusion forgot that for Christians the Torah is the Yeshua the Messiah the Son of God who is the Living Torah.”

          “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

          CP version:

          Do not think that i have come to abolish myself or the prophets;

          Does it make sense? No? Ok.

          because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

          CP version:

          Because Jesus brings wrath. And where there is no Jesus, there is no transgression.

          Try not to laugh too much.

          “Who eats my Resurrected Flesh and drink the Cup of Salvation will have eternal life.”

          No no you drink his blood.

          “Judaic observances are as complex than the fiscal system. You need to be an expert lawyer to understand the Law”

          Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. Deuteronomy 30:11

          “Always afraid to lose or miss something…”

          Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind. Ecclesiastes 12:13

          ” But the path of the rabbis are deceitful for no rabbis agree between each others and the burden is set to despair the humble ones. ”

          Sure sure, this is why the Shulkhan Arouh agrees 85% with the Mishne Torah. But do your Church Fathers agree with each others? Once again, if we go this way, your Church will end up in the garbage. Let’s take 2 examples:

          “The term “World Orthodoxy” refers to those Patriarchates and autocephalous Churches which call themselves Orthodox but have fallen into the heresy of Ecumenism. Ecumenism is the mother of all heresies, which seeks to unite within itself all heresies, all religions, under the auspices of so-called “love”, overlooking their doctrinal errors. It rejects the Orthodox Creed, which professes One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, by confessing a new creed, which accepts all religions, all creeds, all ideas, all gods, as leading to salvation.” http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy.shtml

          True Orthodoxs calling you heretics and on the path to hell. Wow, for sure Yosef Karo never said this about the Rambam, even if on the Halakah they had 15% disagreement. Your house of glass is left in ruin.

          Another example. “St” Augustine taught the Filioque:

          ” “God the Father is He from Whom the Word is born and from Whom the Holy Spirit principally proceeds. I have used the word ‘principally,’ so that it may be understood that the Spirit proceeds from the Son also.”” http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_augustine.shtml

          But “St” Photius condemned it:

          “Haugh examined the particular nuances of the Horos of this Council in the light of the subsequent writings of Photios relating to the Filioque doctrine16 — especially his Letter to the Patriarch of Aquileia17 and his Mystagogy on the Holy Spirit,18 both of which took the Horos as a powerful rebuff against the Frankish doctrine of the Filioque” http://www.oodegr.co/english/dogma/synodoi/8th_Synod_Dragas.htm Fr. George Dion. Dragas

          You’re pathetic, really.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:07 pm

            Shalom to you Saul!

            It seems that your knowledge of Orthodoxy is a sham. Being baptised at age 19 make you a convert which obviously lacked humility to progress in the glorious path of the truth and life. Now for my part I was baptised by an Orthodox monk in Alexandria 50 days after my birth. Since my childhood I have always kept the commandments and commune to the Lord each Resurrection day.

            True knowledge of Orthodoxy and the Faith is mystical not like you imbibed in intellectual pride. You left Orthodoxy for the Lord cut off prideful people from His Church. He can not stand the prideful. Now you are with your own and I wait for the day where all the prideful liars will be a footstool to his foot.

            You can continue to quote your pseudo-knowledge of the fathers but your argumentation only show how in prelest you are: a real pity and horror to those who dare to elevate themselves by themselves. Humble yourself in front of YHWH and may be He will elevate you. Try saying that to your idol the satan … may be you still have some sense left in you…

            Shalom!
          • Dina says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:24 pm

            Chris, you don’t respond to Saul’s arguments with a counterargument; you simply engage in personal attacks. You also refuse to admit your error that the rabbis changed “virgin” to “young woman” and that your Septuagint does not say “the Lord behold the almah” (why this is significant escapes me).

            Why are you doing that?
          • Sharbano says:

            August 17, 2015 at 7:32 pm

            So you were in Alexandria. This is where “the order of Eliyah” was from.
            I’ll ask you a question. WHAT does your book of Revelation say about liars. Can you tell us.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 18, 2015 at 2:58 am

            Christian How do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you are not man enough to apologize for your false accusation?
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:21 pm

            Christian, every Orthodox Christian has a baptism certificate. Send yours to Rav Blumenthal, i’ll send him mine, and we can check if at least this part of you story is true. I challenge you to accept. But you were baptised by a monk in Alexandria? Wich Monk? Tell me his name, and the monastery he was part of.

            It is very funny: you were baptised so young, and you didn’t know your Church teaches to pray to angels? Don’t you realise you look even more silly?

            Anyway, you are not able to refute my arguments and just run away, as usual. Run Forrest, run, this is what you do best 🙂
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:26 pm

            “Try saying that to your idol the satan ”

            Hahaha how desperate you are. Come on, tell us it was all a joke, you are not Orthodox Christian. You’re just some westerner with a computer watching Christian orthodox videos on youtube.
          • LarryB says:

            August 17, 2015 at 8:54 pm

            Saul Goodman
            I think he is from california. this is one of the videos he has posted on line under the youtube name
            mrchristianpaul11
            at the 35 sec spot you’ll see his title the returnofelijahtheprophet.blogspot.ca running across the screen.
            https:// .youtube.com/watch?v=766IXA1uv7E

            just add the www and you can cut and paste it in
          • Dina says:

            August 17, 2015 at 9:18 pm

            Larry, I may be wrong, but I think that dot com is for all of the U.S., including California. I think the dot ca designation belongs to Canada.
          • LarryB says:

            August 17, 2015 at 9:24 pm

            Dina
            my mistake, I believe your correct.
            do they speak French up there
          • Dina says:

            August 17, 2015 at 9:59 pm

            Yes, in Quebec, the French Canadians.
          • Dina says:

            August 17, 2015 at 10:04 pm

            Good point about French, Larry.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 18, 2015 at 3:12 am

            Ah i think his former name is blocked

            Wow Larry you got it! You got him: on this youtube, he both has “Christian Paul” and “E Lion”! Congratulations, you ended his lies better than i could ever do!

            And Canada would match up pefectly with what Dina noticed about french language. Gloire à Hashem! And you are right about “ca”, the Jews for Judaism website of rabbi Skobac has “ca” at the end and he is in Toronto if i remember corrrectly. In his youtube, CP also calls Mary “Maryam” as in here. And his video about Mary is described in french with some others.

            Ah this comedy is over, at last. But something troubles me. He posted those christian orthodox videos 5 years ago. So we can deduce that he is interested in the Orthodox Church for at least 5 years now. How did he not know so many things about its teachings? I would like to think that i’m such a great apologist that i asked the hardest questions to him in the world, but it’s not the case, it was very basic. I guess it will remain a mystery.

            On his blog he also commented as such:

            Christian Paul27 April 2012 at 13:53
            If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Any comments are welcomed! Thank you!
            Christ is risen!!

            Tu sais CP, on a un son sur lequel tu devrais méditer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TnWPIO4BiI Rohff – Arrête Ta Flûte
        • Sharbano says:

          August 17, 2015 at 7:20 pm

          Tanach makes a lot of analogies regarding Torah but NOWHERE is it analogous to “Who eats my Resurrected Flesh”. Just another disgusting idea from pagan worship, commonly called Avodah Zarah (STRANGE WORSHIP). And THIS is strange indeed.

          Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 17, 2015 at 7:34 pm

          Christian Your religion allows you to accuse falsely without admitting and apologizing – nothing to be jealous of

          Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      August 16, 2015 at 9:50 am

      I asked this before; Does G-d have faith?

      Reply
58. Jim says:

    August 15, 2015 at 1:45 pm

    Eric,

    In response to your comments here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-22194 , I have two responses. One addresses the standard that we can agree on. The other clarifies my argument, to which you are responding. I do not wish to make an overlong comment, so I will divide them into two separate comments. This first will address “manipulation” and fair practices. I am busy finishing a project, so I may not get to the second until tomorrow or even Monday, but I will do my best to return to it in the next few days.

    You call me a “genius in manipulation.” Do not worry; I am not offended. The comment, though uncivil, gives us an area of agreement, I believe. I believe you are expressing a desire for fair play. Obviously, I do not think that I have violated this fair play, but I do agree that one should use a text fairly. One should not impose meanings upon it not intended by the author. One should not misrepresent the works of another. One should be straightforward and honest, not employing deceptive measures. Generally speaking, I think we can call this ‘fairness’.

    If we agree on this, then can you now admit that certain Christian practices have been unfair and manipulative. In the modern era, there are multiple examples. I have cited one, a website that labels itself jewsforjudaism2000. Can you and I agree that this is a manipulative tactic that should be abandoned?

    There are other practices modern missionaries employ. To make Christianity more palatable to the Jewish people, they dress up their services in Jewish garb. They call Jesus, Yeshua. They publish Jewish New Testaments that add Hebrew terms to books that were written in Greek. They do not celebrate Easter, but Passover, only they impose upon it Christian meanings. In short, they disguise their beliefs and practices with Jewish terminology and tradition to make it more appealing. Because you decry manipulation, can you and I agree that these manipulative tactics should be abandoned?

    Please understand, these are not rhetorical questions. I think we should be able to agree on fair practices. I agree with you that one should not be manipulative and dishonest in the way he represents the works of others.

    I think we can agree that if I were to only quote the first five words of your comment to me, that would be unfair usage: “Jim, you are a genius….” I might like the sound of it, but it would be quite dishonest of me to claim that you are complimenting my mental acumen. Really, you are calling me dishonest, and I have no right to change the meaning. You actually wrote: “Jim, You are a genius in manipulation.” You are clearly not praising me. If I then go about say that Eric thinks I am one of the smartest people he’s ever met, this is not fair usage. This would be a manipulation of your words. Are we agreed that one cannot take a small sample of someone’s writing to impose a new meaning upon it? And if we should guard your words, and I believe we should, and my words, and I believe we should, how much more should we guard the words of HaShem, given throughout Tanach?

    Assuming we should not misrepresent the words of others, then you must turn your criticism not just on me but on the NT also. Use that same standard when you read the NT. Ask yourself whether or not Matthew is a “genius in manipulation”. And Paul. And so on.

    Recently, there has been a discussion on Psalm 41. Jesus applied one verse to himself. To do so, he had to ignore the rest of the psalm. This is not fair usage. He imposed a new meaning on the text, claiming to fulfill a verse from Tanach that was not even a prophecy. Jesus, or the author of the Gospel of John who put these words in Jesus mouth, has misrepresented the text. Would you not call him a “genius in manipulation”? Can we agree that this is not fair usage, that these authors are abusing the text?

    Many times, it has been pointed out that Matthew misrepresents the words of the prophets. He ignores the context of the verses he quotes with alarming frequency. When he quotes Isaiah 7:14, he leaves out verse 15. He leaves out the context. He alters some words. This is not fair usage. His manipulations are on the page, staring at us. When he quotes Hosea, “…out of Egypt I have called my son” he removes the part that he does not like, “When Israel was a child, I loved him…” (11:1). Matthew has altered the meaning of HaShem’s words by cutting it away from its context. Shall we not acknowledge that he is a manipulator? Can we not agree that this is not fair usage?

    When Paul separates the verse from the psalm, “There is none righteous, no not one” from what comes before, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no god’”, this is a blatant misrepresentation. David was not writing that a man cannot be righteous. He was writing about those that deny God. Paul has altered David’s meaning. And this is not his only offense. Can we not agree that this is not fair usage, that he is a manipulator?

    Throughout the NT, the words of the prophets are misrepresented. And that practice has only grown over time. The Church has found many more ‘prophecies’ that Jesus fulfilled as time has gone on. But a review of these lists shows that they are built on nothing. The verses are almost always misconstrued. The ones that are not so abused are usually things Jesus will supposedly do in the future but has not done yet.

    I agree with you that one should not manipulate a text to impose his own message onto the text. I do not believe I have done this, and when I clarify my position, I hope this will be clear to you as well. However, I believe that if you apply this standard to the Church you will find that it is full of manipulation. It has been quite dishonest. The modern missionaries to the Jews frequently misrepresent themselves. And from the inception of the Church, it has been the practice to misrepresent the words of Tanach. If we can agree that misrepresentation of the words of another is an unfair practice, then I think you will see that the NT fails to meet that standard.

    Jim

    Reply
59. ChristianPaul says:

    August 16, 2015 at 9:10 am

    Rabbi you said:
    ”Christian I am not talking about reincarnation – I am talking about the joy of studying God’s Torah the connection to God that is achieved through study of Torah the holiness, the light and the truth of the Torah and the small still voice of truth that is with those who study the Torah – this is reexperiencing Sinai to some degree”

    I was studying Torah and I always found confirmation of my Christian Orthodox Faith, here an example:

    42 It is a night of solemn observance to the Lord for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the Lord, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations. (Exodus 12)

    Do you know how many Orthodox Christians around the world observe this solemn observance? More than the house of Yudah. The night of Passover all Orthodox observe this is the most important night for us. We finish our Divine Liturgy around 4:00am… ”a solemn observance for all the children of Israel”… Do you observe this solemnity? Does the House of Yudah observe it?

    The proof of Yeshua success reposes in his Resurrection and all his countless children more than Moses ever dream. Success is proven by the fruits. How many Saints in the Church compared to the House of Yudah?

    Shalom and may the truth be in all of us!

    Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 16, 2015 at 9:29 am

      Roman Catholicism has far more adepts than the Orthodox Church. Islam too. So your argument backfires against you. Not only are you lying on a reccurent basis, you also use so bad argument that Rav Blumenthal couldn’t have made them up himself.

      Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 16, 2015 at 9:43 am

      Christian You made false accusations and you have still not admitted or apologized for them – will you live up to your responsibility as a human being?

      Reply
      • Paul summers says:

        August 16, 2015 at 4:13 pm

        Hello
        I don’t completely understands you.

        Moses never completed the task or ministry that God ordained Moses with. Infact He was quite reluctant to even start. His brother had to be his voice due to Moses reluctance.

        Moses never saw the promised land neither did the exodus generation. It was the wilderness generation that lived and went in.

        Im NOT stating Moses was faithless But how did the ones with no faith see?

        Is this the comparison?

        At the point of Jesus death, yes there was a lack of faith etc, but it wasnt until after that, they started to understand, again a NT teaching.

        Even after that, they still needed the Holy Spirit to fill them with power to go out and preach the Gospel message. Man cannot do the works of Christ until He has been given.

        Each believer has a gift or calling to edify the Church, the Body Of Christ. You have to see, that the disciples pre pentecost were not in the Church. The Church was birthed at pentecost with the outpouring of Him the Holy Spirit.

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 16, 2015 at 4:26 pm

          Paul
          Exodus 14:31 and Exodus 19:9
          The people were actually taken out of slavery and they actually saw their enemies dead on the sea shore – they didn’t need “faith” to believe. They actually heard God speaking to Moses -so they didn’t need “faith” to believe – and they believed – even the Egyptians believed – Exodus 14:25 – how does this compare to someone who accomplished nothing of what was expected of him?

          Reply
          • Paul summers says:

            August 16, 2015 at 5:02 pm

            Hello

            I think there is a massive theological difference though of seeing and believing and seeing and having faith in.

            I see what you saying here, but then surley you are stating that the Egyptians became believers by faith in the One true God of Israel. They might have believed that “a” god existed, but they just added Him to their pantheon. Thats not faith.

            Especially when moments after the “believing Egyptians” were trying to exterminate the Jews. If God had shown them faith in Him, something of God is seriously wrong, because mass murder is not, in my book a level of true theological faith in the God of Israel.

            Plus I would argue that Christ accomplished everything that was asked of Him.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 16, 2015 at 6:51 pm

            No Xtian has replied when asked if G-d has “faith”.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 16, 2015 at 7:07 pm

            Paul I didn’t say that the Egyptians became men of “faith” – they believed because it was in front of their eyes – so did the Jews. Jesus could do nothing of the sort. If you want to see how Scripture rates a prophet read Deuteronomy 34:10-12 Jesus by the way accomplished nothing that was asked of him – it was only after he failed that his disciples rewrote the rules
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 16, 2015 at 5:29 pm

        Rabbi Shalom to you!

        Again you accuse without any substance. I wish you investigate the claims before dropping the word false and lie. You think that everybody lies except you. That is not the way to establish any dialogue.

        For the accusations of tampering with Holy Scriptures, this is a scholarly claim first established by well known fathers of the Church like Saint John Chrysostom and Justin Martyr. It is well established that the Masoreitic text a 10th century AD text differs from the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls(DSS) which are much more ancient.

        Also I have shown you that the DSS contains the Tetragrammaton YHWH in Isaiah 7:14 which is absent in the Masoreitic… How can you explain this tampering??

        ‘YHWH behold the Alma’ which considerably differs from the Masoreitic for if ‘YHWH behold the Alma’ do you realize that it confirms Luke Gospel chapter 1. For the Gospel says:

        ”35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”

        Actually the tampering of Isaiah 7:14 is way more grave than the Alma issue and you know it and try to deviate the subject. But you could be accused of being in collaboration with those who tampered the Holy Text which is very very grave. On which authority to you have the power to tamper the Holy Text by pulling off the Holy Name of God??

        I hope you will explain if you have the honesty to do it and are really a Jew, for only impostors and sons of the devil will dared to tamper the Holy Text and pulling off the Glorious Holy NAME of YHWH…

        May the truth prevail in all!

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 16, 2015 at 6:49 pm

          CP; This is what Origen said of the Septuagint.

          We have now to speak of the labours of ORIGEN in connection with the text of the Septuagint. This learned and enterprising scholar, having acquired a knowledge of Hebrew, found that in many respects the copies of the Septuagint differed from the Hebrew text. It seems to be uncertain whether he regarded such differences as having arisen from mistakes on the part of the copyists, or from errors of the original translators themselves.

          The object which he proposed to himself was not to restore the Septuagint to its original condition, nor yet to correct mere errors of translation simply as such, but to cause that the Church should possess a text of the Septuagint in which all additions to the Hebrew should be marked with an obelus, and in which all that the Septuagint omitted should be added from one of the other versions marked with an asterick. He also indicated readings in the Septuagint which were so incorrect that the passage ought to be changed for the corresponding one in another version.

          With the object of thus amending the Septuagint, he formed his great works, the Hexapla and Tetrapla; these were (as the names imply) works in which the page was divided respectively into six columns and into four columns.

          The Hexapla contained, 1st, the Hebrew text; 2nd, the Hebrew text expressed in Greek characters; 3rd, the version of Aquila; 4th, that of Symmachus; 5th, the Septuagint; 6th, Theodotion. The Tetrapla contained merely the four last columns.

          Besides these four versions of the entire Old Testament, Origen employed three anonymous Greek versions of particular books; these are commonly called the fifth, sixth, and seventh versions. Hence in the parts in which two of these versions are added, the work was designated Octapla, and where all the three appeared, it was called Enneapla.

          References were then made from the column of the Septuagint to other versions, so as to complete and correct it: for this purpose Theodotion was principally used. This recension by Origen has generally been called the Hexaplar text. The Hexapla itself is said never to have been copied: what remains of the versions which it contained (mere fragments) were edited by Montfaucon in 1714, and in an abridged edition by Bahrdt in 1769-70.

          The Hexaplar text of the Septuagint was copied about half a century after Origen’s death by Pamphilus and Eusebius; it thus obtained a circulation; but the errors of copyists soon confounded the marks of addition and omission which Origen placed, and hence the text of the Septuagint became almost hopelessly mixed up with that of other versions.

          There were two other early attempts to revise the Septuagint besides that of Origen. In the beginning of the fourth century, Lucian, a presbyter on Antioch, and Hesychius, an Egyptian bishop, undertook similar labours of the same kind. These two recensions (which they were in the proper sense of the term) were much used in the Eastern Churches.

          From the fourth century and onward, we know of no definite attempt to revise the text of the Septuagint, or to correct the discrepancies of various copies. It is probable, however, that just as the text of the Greek New Testament became in a great measure fixed into the same form as we find it in the modern copies, something of the same kind must have been the case with the Septuagint. As to the Greek New Testament, this seems to have occured about the eleventh century, when the mass of copies were written within the limits of the patriarchate of Constantinople. It is probable that certain copies approved at the metropolis, both politically and religiously, of those who used the Greek tongue, were tacitly taken as a kind of standard.

          NOW, do you REALLY want to “Claim” some kind of authority of this failed document, known as the Septuagint.

          Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 16, 2015 at 7:01 pm

          Christian You accused falsely – and you provided all of the evidence in writing – you accused the Jews of pulling the word “virgin” and you lied about that. Not YOU are diverting by focusing on a switch between one name of God and another which has no bearing on the debate with Christianity and you are trying to make an issue of that. How do you look at yourself in the mirror? Why do you think that anyone would want to join you in your deep insecurity? You can’t admit an obvious mistake?

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 16, 2015 at 10:39 pm

            Rabbi Shalom to you!

            You just revealed yourself by saying: ”YOU are diverting by focusing on a switch between one name of God and another which has no bearing on the debate with Christianity and you are trying to make an issue of that.”

            The Tetragrammaton: YHWH is NOT JUST a title of God it is the NAME of God. To pull it off of ISAIAH 7:14 is much much much more grave than your false alma issue. For alma in the Septuagint is translated by virgin and in the context Alma means Virgin. You disagree fair enough BUT you do not admit that tampering with the Holy Name of God is something grave that should sound the alarm to everybody on this site and all around the planet on who is the true keeper of God’s Word. How dare you? You should ask forgiveness for treating the Holy Name like this. Shame on you!

            For my side what the Church teaches is infinitely more valuable than the precept of men and so-called worshippers of God who do not care about the proper respect due to the HOLY NAME. You can not tamper with the Holy Name that is not possible especially that your tampering has been done to render the Christian Holy Scripture as false. That is shameful and deceitful. Have the courage to admit it and see the Truth of the Gospel!

            Again Isaiah 7:14 is the crumbling of the actual New Judaism based on lies and deceits. What you accuses the Christians YOU yourselves have done it through out History to counter the Christian treat. Isaiah 7:14 is this prophetic sign given to all. And the DSS confirms how was you the extent of your lie and deceit by pulling off the Holy Name for the text of the DSS is:

            ”YHWH behold the Alma” … Actually if you translated all of Isaiah 7:14 you see the perfect prophecy announcing the Annunciation of Mary in Luke 1. WOW! Amazing Grace now available for the world to see on Israel soil. WOW!

            As a Christian I am blessed and sure on my Lord but you are again condemned by History as deceivers and liars like the fathers of the Church accused you and Saint John proclaimed with power and in the truth:

            22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Yeshua is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. (1John2)

            And where the liars go? Your eternity is at stake for false testimony and for having dared trafficking the word of God and the Holy Name. Imagine your fate! I would be terrified in your place! Repentance is the key!

            Many blessings and may the Truth prevail in all!

            P.S.: A Warning
            18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22)
          • Dina says:

            August 16, 2015 at 10:54 pm

            Chris, the definition of lying is to say something you know to be untrue. I asked you point blank if you ever posted on this blog under the screen name whose first name was “Eliyah” and whose second name was “Lion” and you lied outright and said “No.”

            So stop accusing people of being liars and clean up your own house first.

            It is possible that you have convinced yourself that you are not the person who posed as “Eliyah” with the second name of “Lion.” In that case, you need help and I can offer you only compassion while hoping you get the help that you need.

            Peace and blessings and may the truth prevail indeed.
          • Dina says:

            August 16, 2015 at 11:08 pm

            Besides, Chris, your beloved Septuagint does not read “the Lord behold the almah.” What do you have to say to that?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 16, 2015 at 11:37 pm

            Christian You explicitly accused the Jewish people of deliberately taking the word “virgin” out of the text – Your accusation was false. You can’t admit that you lied or were mistaken. You cannot bring yourself to apologize for the evil words that you wrote. How small do you become when you accept Jesus?
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 16, 2015 at 11:30 pm

            You want to talk about text tempering Christian? Are you sure? Ok, let’s see for your New Testament(you go offtopic to avoid answering on your lie about the missing virgin but hey, this is how you always do):

            “Those who say this verse is not part of Holy Scripture will often say it is not found in the majority of Greek manuscripts and for this reason it should not be included in the Bible.

            It is true that the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth” are not found in the majority of remaining Greek manuscripts that exist today. However there is very much and weighty evidence for its inclusion.” http://brandplucked.webs.com/1john57.htm

            Why did you Christian corrupt such a text? Now you don’t even know if it is part of the NT.

            Another example:

            “Mark 16:9-20 has been called a later addition to the Gospel of Mark by most New Testament scholars in the past century. The main reason for doubting the authenticity of the ending is that it does not appear in some of the oldest existing witnesses, and it is reported to be absent from many others in ancient times by early writers of the Church. ” http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

            Your Church added 11 verses!!!!! And you dare to talk about Jewish tempering? Also John Chrysostom said the Jews corrupted it because of the missing prophecy of “he shall be called a nazarene”(by they way, you didn’t even know this about Chrysostom, you learnt it because i wrote it in the comments of this blog, talk about failing scholarship on you part…) Since it does not appear in ANY manuscript of the OT, do you admit your Orthodox Church Old Testament is corrupted?

            Now we also have an early witness to the corruption of the New Testament Scriptures:

            “Faustus; Therefore if Christ did say this thing, He either said it with some other meaning, or He spoke falsely, (which God forbid,) or we must take the other alternative, He did not speak it at all. But that Jesus spoke falsely none will aver, therefore He either spoke it with another meaning, or He spake it not at all. For myself I am rescued from the necessity of this alternative by the Manichaean belief, which from the first taught me not to believe all those things which are read in Jesus’ name as having been spoken by Him; for that there be many tares which to corrupt the good seed some nightly sower has scattered up and down through nearly the whole of Scripture.” http://dhspriory.org/thomas/CAMatthew.htm#5 Thomas Aquinas, Catena Aurea (Golden Chain)

            You corrupt your scriptures so much, that you even changed the language of the Matthew Gospel from Hebrew to Greek:

            “Jerome, Hier. Prolog. ad Euseb: Matthew published his Gospel in Judaea, in the Hebrew tongue, for the sake of those of the Jews who believed in Jerusalem. Gloss. Ordinaria: For having first preached the Gospel in Judaea, being minded to pass to the Gentiles, he first put in writing a Gospel in Hebrew, and left it as a memorial to those brethren from whom he was departing. For as it was necessary that the Gospel should be preached for confirmation of the faith, so was it necessary that it should be written to oppose heretics.” http://dhspriory.org/thomas/CAMatthew.htm#5

            Not only did you do this, but one of you Saints admits that in the process, you corrupted it:

            “Remig.: It is a question who interpreted this name? The Prophet, or the Evangelist, or some translator? It should be known then, that the Prophet did not interpret it; and what need had the Holy Evangelist to do so, seeing he wrote in the Hebrew tongue? Perhaps that was a difficult and rare word in Hebrew, and therefore needed interpretation. It is more probable that some translator interpreted it, that the Latins might not be perplexed by an unintelligible word.” http://dhspriory.org/thomas/CAMatthew.htm#1

            “Jerome: We think the Evangelist first wrote, as we read in the Hebrew, ‘Judah,’ not ‘Judaea.’ For in what other country is there a Bethlehem, that this needs to be distinguished as in ‘Judaea?’ But ‘Judah’ is written, because there is another Bethlehem in Galilee.” http://dhspriory.org/thomas/CAMatthew.htm#2

            Now, let’s see what your own Church Father Jerome has to say about the Old Testament, and wich text is authentic:

            “Jerome: Joseph was not sold as many, following the LXX [septuagint], think for twenty pieces of gold, but as the Hebrew text has for twenty pieces of silver, [marg. note: Gen 37:28] for it could not be that the servant should be more valuable than his Master.” http://dhspriory.org/thomas/CAMatthew.htm#26
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 16, 2015 at 11:40 pm

            Christian, even in your Orthodox Church Old Testament you do not have it as in the DSS so either you also corrupted your Old Testament or your accusation is simply another slander from the bad mouth and liar that you are. A fake Orthodox should i add who does not even know his own Church history and teachings.

            If the DSS is not the original, and you have to admit it unless you want to say you have a corrupt Old Testament in your Church, then you can not say there was a tempering in the Massoretc text. End of the debate.

            “”YHWH behold the Alma” … Actually if you translated all of Isaiah 7:14 you see the perfect prophecy announcing the Annunciation of Mary in Luke 1. WOW! Amazing Grace now available for the world to see on Israel soil. WOW!”

            What a liar lol, Luke 1 does not read at all as the Isaiah 7:14 of the DSS. Amazing how you lie without any shame. In fact, your NT does not have the Tetragrammaton at all.

            “As a Christian I am blessed and sure on my Lord but you are again condemned by History as deceivers and liars like the fathers of the Church accused you ”

            Hahaha don’t worry Christian, i have a comment waiting moderation that will blow you away and send you back where you come from about this. Quotes from Church Fathers about the corruption of your New Testament. When the comment will be on, you will run away faster than ever.

            P.S.: A Warning
            Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation. Psalm 146:3
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 16, 2015 at 11:52 pm

            Saul I tried to repost the comment – I am not sure how it came out – but Christian won’t run – you presented truth and truth doesn’t seem to talk to him – I might have to block him again – but I hesitate because he does serve as an example
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 16, 2015 at 11:52 pm

            Peace be upon you Dina!

            Concerning Eli hanavi he is to come back before the Messiah final judgement. We will see him coming from the heavens. Your conception of Eli can be discuss if you want.

            For myself I am just a little son of the Lord by grace and by myself I am nothing.

            Now back to the real issues about truth:

            The fathers of the Church say that the Jew leaders tampered Scriptures. I believe them based on my confidence I have for them being Saints and now their claim is proven by irrefutable facts. Now if I had to choose between:

            1) The Original UN-tampered Hebrew Text
            2) The Septuagint
            3) The Masoreitic tampered Text

            I will certainly choose number 1)… With the DSS we see the Original or something close to it certainly infinitely more valuable than the Masoreitic who completely deformed the orders of the word and the pull off of the Holy Name changing clearly the sense of the Holy Text for I hope you can see how the DSS in Isaiah 7:14 reveals the power of the sign promise:

            YHWH behold the Almah … This goes directly in sync with Luke Gospel ch.1… Just this should shake down all the lies and deceits said against Christianity and the Holy Church. It is not for nothing that we have been warned against the liars. Those who deliberately lie about the Truth and distort Scriptures to their destruction.

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!

            P.S.: This DSS who is exposed in Israel is a providential sign of God for you and your brothers and sisters from the house of Yudah. You should carefully pay attention and stop the false testimony against the little lambs of the Lord that Isaiah prophecy might be accomplished:

            Isaiah 11:6
            “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 16, 2015 at 11:55 pm

            Christian You still didn’t admit that you lied and you still have not apologized for your false accusation
          • Dina says:

            August 17, 2015 at 11:43 am

            Chris, actually, the finding of the Great Isaiah Scroll in the DSS is a HUGE problem for you. First, it shows that the word “almah” was used long before the formation of Christianity. Second, it shows that according to you the Septuagint has been at least as tampered with as you accuse the Masoretic text to have been, since it also doesn’t say “The Lord behold the almah.”

            Surely, if you think about it for a minute or two, you will find this troubling.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 17, 2015 at 12:40 am

            Thank you Rav, it came out perfectly!
          • Paul summers says:

            August 17, 2015 at 2:00 pm

            Hello – they believed because it was in front of their eyes – so did the Jews. Jesus could do nothing of the sort.

            Sorry for being slow here, I just dont get your argument.

            You keep saying Jesus failed. What did He say or do that constitutes that He was a failure?

            The miracles, healings, etc didnt fail. Thousands came to believe by faith in Him. Thats not failure. He came to be rejected, He was ultimately rejected, you reject Him, thats not a failure.

            For one instance He predicted His death and the very mesns of it. Jesus died by the way of the cross.

            His disciples failed to see the prediction, but then understood it and wrote about it.We know Peter got it wrong because Jesus rebuked him. How is that the disciples re writng the rules? We know Jesus said it, we know, by your own previous statement that they didnt see it coming, correct. But they didn’t scribe anything different to what actually happened. There own lack of faith is well documented.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 17, 2015 at 2:57 pm

            Paul Jesus aspired or believed himself to be the Messiah predicted by the Jewish prophets. the Messiah doesn’t need to multiply the loaves or walk on water. No prophet predicted that the Messiah will do these things. The prophets DID predict that the Messiah will usher in an age of universal peace and obedience to God – this Jesus did not do. His own disciples believed that he was the Messiah and they did not expect him to get killed – this tells us that if you read the Jewish Scriptures without a bias you will never find such an idea in the Jewish Scripture. Only AFTER Jesus FAILED to do what the Messiah is supposed to do did his disciples come up with a new set of rules that the Messiah is supposed to do – in order to maintain their irrational and immoral “faith” in their failed hero. Do you get it now?
    • Sharbano says:

      August 16, 2015 at 6:57 pm

      Maybe you should look up the word confirmation. Unless, that is, we are using the language of Xtianese.

      Reply
60. Paul summers says:

    August 16, 2015 at 3:46 pm

    Sharbano says:
    August 16, 2015 at 9:35 am
    Jsus also said that the generation he was speaking to would see the return of the kingdom.

    Hello Sharbano

    Can you please give me the chapter and verse.

    Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      August 16, 2015 at 6:53 pm

      Why do we always have to do your work for you. Don’t you know your own bible.
      Jsus speaks of those standing here would not see death before the kingdom came.

      Reply
      • Paul summers says:

        August 17, 2015 at 1:13 am

        Hello Sharbano

        I did try and see, but couldnt find it.

        I was asssuming that you were talking about Math ch 12 because it seemed that you were saying, Jesus also spoke to the same generation, at the same time, about not seeing death before seeing the kingdom.

        The text I know is Mark ch 9.

        Sorry for any confusion.

        Reply
61. Jim says:

    August 16, 2015 at 7:39 pm

    C. Paul,

    Responding further to your comments here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-22152 .

    I do not know how to say this gently, so I am just going to come straight out, and if it offends, it offends. Sometimes, if one wishes to discuss true ideas, it cannot be helped.

    It is a particularly cowardly view that advocates that one adopt a religious viewpoint based on a “risk reward evaluation” and cynical, besides. To tell someone that he ought to dedicate himself to a proposition, not because it is true, but because it may have a big payout is to advocate for hypocrisy. How crass! How craven!

    You have behaved abominably in writing this, enticing one after gain rather than truth. You are like one who wishes to overthrow a king. He says to a man loyal to the king: “The king does not know you exist. He will never reward you the way you deserve. All your dedication to him and his laws profit you nothing. Fall in with me, and we will assassinate him, and his chancellor will take his place. And when the chancellor is king, he will reward you with a dukedom and a fine wife and many riches. Why should you continue to serve a king who will never take notice of you?” Have you no shame, C. Paul? Do you think that virtue should only be practiced only if one will be praised and rewarded for it? Shall one deny the truth because he is promised remuneration?

    No, sir. One keeps the commandments with which he has been entrusted, because they are the expressed will of God. He acknowledges truth merely because it is true. That virtue that is practiced with the hand outstretched for payment is not virtue at all.

    You write that a non-Jew has nothing. I cannot adopt such base ingratitude. God has done me much good, though I had no claim to any of it. He has granted me life, a wife and children. I am not in want; He supplies my needs. I have had the great pleasure of friendship. I have been granted the opportunity to learn and grow. About a week ago, I saw a rainbow that looked as if it had been smeared across the sky by a thumb. It was beautiful, and I did nothing to deserve to experience such beauty. All God has done for me has been good, even the pains, many of which educated me. I do not have nothing. I have been granted a great gift. I shall not turn from my Creator because your sect promises a future reward.

    You write, rather ignorantly, that I aim to please Jewish persons. This is foolish. It is HaShem, my Maker, I wish to please. How shall I deny Him, and turn to a mortal? Because you offer me reward? You ask me to betray both my God and myself.

    You have not attempted to persuade me as you say you have. Persuasion relies upon facts and reason. Do you demonstrate that Christianity is true? No, you assert it. You rhapsodize about it. But when challenged with facts, you change the topic. You reinterpret. You malign your opponents. You assert your rectitude based on a wind only known to you.

    Rather than persuade, you attempt to lure me with enticements. You do not attempt to persuade me that Christianity is true, but that it is profitable. You have asked me to make myself despicable. You wish me to bow my knee to a false god just in case it is correct, base on a risk/reward analysis. This, sir, is disgusting. If you were a guest in my home, I would drive you from it for suggesting such evil.

    Jim

    Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 16, 2015 at 10:44 pm

      I would say, in the end, it is not so much for hope of reward than fear of hell, ot be thrown into the “lake of fire”. If i get a lesser gain than someone else, well not so bad after all, but if i end up in hell, or anihilated, well this is scary. And this is how it works for many.

      But if we talk about safety, Judaism is safer. Why? Because Torah and Sinai are accepted as true by both christians and muslims. But Christian and muslim claims are only accepted by… themself. As such, Sinai is safer than the Calvary or the Cave of Arabia.

      Reply
62. ChristianPaul says:

    August 16, 2015 at 11:25 pm

    Jim and Saul Peace be upon you!

    As former Christians you have been cut off from the Holy Church by the hand of the Father. This is the mystery of iniquity. By following the Rabbis and the New Judaism your path is clearly a sign for others to see how pride and the yeast of the Pharisees can be destructive of the Christ who had in you. The satan is one of chief cunning angels and his role is test your faith and certainly to make you let go of the Promise of eternal life.

    Instead of believing God you believed the serpent through the ministry of his servants. Why? Because instead of believing the word of YHWH of not to eat you decided to take the path of the serpent from the tree of knowledge (gnosis) that the Rabbis and the Freemasons take. They do not believe God in Faith but like the serpent they believe by knowledge:

    19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (James 2)

    The Messiah was the little lamb offered on the altar. He is our Passover by denying him you stay in Egypt with your bondages. For the Rabbis they are from Babylon the Great and they distort Scriptures to promulgate their man-made religions where even the word of God is manipulated to fit their way. That is not honesty and the religion of truth but of the deceiver. Now you should take the warning of Saint John if you have a little sense left in you:

    9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Book of Revelation 3)

    Your eternity is serious! Repentance with fear and trembling is the key! You can not afford to be mistaken on the subject! That is serious! I say it as to lost brothers who have been infected by the lies and deceits of the Pharisees. Be careful! Come to the One true Church where you will find the water of grace and filled your heart with the Beauty of the Bride:

    6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!

    Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 16, 2015 at 11:41 pm

      Christian You accused falsely – admit and apologize. Where do you get the audacity to preach to people about truth?

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 17, 2015 at 12:39 am

        Rabbi peace be upon you!

        Again you want me to cut me off because I say the truth. For me if you do it is a blessing for my Lord said: Blessed those who are persecuted for the Justice of the Kingdom the Kingdom is theirs. But of course it will be a condemnation for you for having done what your forefathers did by killing the Messiah of Israel.

        Now you said where do I get the audacity to preach to people about truth? I will answer you:

        1) The Truth is not preached but proclaimed from the heart and mouth of those who are his witnesses. For we are in the Truth and the Truth is in us having been grown by the Holy Church to become witnesses of the Promise. The Promise given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by the One who you denigrate pleasing without knowing the cunning angel …

        2) If you loved the Truth you would acknowledge the Holy One and have Faith in Him but you chose your Gnosis like the Masons for you have been seduced. Therefore let us pray and let us fell on our knees and ask YHWH the Almighty our loving Father to guide us to the whole truth in humility of heart and spirit like Abraham our father.

        Many blessings and may the Truth prevail in all!

        P.S: Rabbi if a brother blind lost his cane and walk without it in the field wanting to have some fresh air and gets lost and you see him with magnifying-lens going strait to the edge of a cliff. What would you do?

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 17, 2015 at 12:58 am

          Now Jews get accused of being like the masons. This old Judeo-masonic antisemitic claim. I know it by heart, reminds me of my younger years.

          WHat is funny, is while you do not like westerners, you argue like a typical Steven Anderson Baptist Westerner from Arizona. Breaking Bad.

          Now, sorry, but what you wrote is hilarious:

          “1) The Truth is not preached but proclaimed”

          I smiled as the batman joker when i read this.

          and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain 1 Corinthians 15:14

          Truth is not preached? Where did you get this from?

          Even Paul’s angels preach:

          But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. Galatians 1:8

          Sometimes, i really wonder where you get your theology from. Maybe from an angel of light warned of in Galatians 1:8?

          Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 17, 2015 at 6:18 am

          Christian I will answer your last question first – I would be writing articles for this blog. This blog is here for discussions about truth – someone who throws vicious accusations and is not man enough to admit and apologize when he is proven wrong – do you think that such a person should be part of a discussion about truth?

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 17, 2015 at 5:41 pm

            Rabbi peace upon you!

            Vicious accusation?? Who here accuses the Christian of Idolatry? That is a vicious accusation based on your distorted Scriptures. How can we have confidence in people daring to change the word of God like in Isaiah 7:14?

            There is a breach of trust… A major one that I have discovered through our discussions. I knew that some tampering was made but not as major as the Dead Sea Scrolls concerning Isaiah 7:14. But the problem is that it does not stop here. You should find more distortions that were made to counter the power of persuasion of Christianity based on the Holy Scriptures. Yours to find! For being in the true Faith inheritors of the second Temple divine liturgy we are not require to prove all your own distortions you made for you own perdition.

            May be one day I will do it all or another man but for your sake and the sake of Judah you should truly and with courage investigate the matter. Signs like Isaiah 7:14 are God given to testify how corrupt leaders hang on to corrupt view for they lack the humility to admit their own corruption having been blinded by Pride.

            For the record I know all my sins and that I am nothing but my righteousness is in my Lord who died for me in place of me to give me in exchange the free gift of Love and Mercy. We are in the month of Elul, hopefully you will wake up to the truth by humbling yourself in front of the Lord Sabaoth and may be He will have mercy on you and forgive you all the blasphemes you made against Him.

            The time of Mercy is ending for the fire of Purification is coming. Repentance is the key and may the Holy One shine his Face upon you and may His Holy Name be always in your mind and on your lips.

            Schema Israel YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH Ehad! May the Oneness of the Most High be extended to all his children that they may be One as we are One…
          • Dina says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:32 pm

            Chris, you wrote that “For the record I know all my sins.” So why don’t you admit that you lied about the rabbis replacing “virgin” with “almah” and that you lied about not posting previously on this blog as “Lion”? Did you know that it is a sin to lie? Clearly, you do not know all your sins.

            Shame on you.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 17, 2015 at 7:24 pm

            Obviously you were unable to refute what Origen said of the Septuagint. Therefore anything more you have to say is without merit and a continuous lie.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 17, 2015 at 7:40 pm

            Christian You accused falsely and you provided the evidence to the falsehood of your accusations – admit and apologize And yes – as long as you deify a man you are an idolater
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 17, 2015 at 5:53 pm

            I honnestly hesitate to reply. Lucky are you to do this on internet and not in real life. You’re like Stephen in front of the Sanhedrin.

            “Who here accuses the Christian of Idolatry?”

            The Christian book of revelation:

            At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! Revelation 19:10

            ” I knew that some tampering was made but not as major as the Dead Sea Scrolls concerning Isaiah 7:14.”

            Shame on you. You deserve no respect at all. You have been refuted on this, you’ve never answered any argument about your corrupt Old Testament, and you dare to come back to write “this”… Shame, shame shame.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:44 pm

            Dina, i’ve read some comments of the Lion up here, and i think you’re right. It’s the same vocabulary: wanabee hebew scholar, neve adressing the issue at hand, making blod claims with the words othodox and rua, the accusation of blindness each time he can not answer, the same aggresiv tone against the “protestant sects” etc.

            But now i think he burried himself. He is not really serious. He tries to create a new identity for himself, with Christian Monks, Christian Orthodox youtube videos, some hebrew words, etc. The fact that he didn’t know the Orthodox Church prays to Angels is very telling, since prayers to Angels are done during the Liturgy. As such, it can not be missed. Even a tourist coming into a Liturgy the first time of his life will know it after he leaves it. It seems to me he read some things about the Orthodox Church on wikipedia, watched some videos on youtube and then turned into a Christian Orthodox for the sake of polemics and attitude in here.
          • Dina says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:54 pm

            Right, Saul, and also Lion’s native tongue is French, which is why Chris refused to tell me his. But his Frenchiness slipped through, he couldn’t help it. I know just enough of the language to detect it, too bad for him. Lion aka Chris has shown himself to be untrustworthy; therefore, we have no reason to believe anything he says about himself.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 17, 2015 at 7:35 pm

            The only difference Is, This incarnation doesn’t try to translate Hebrew using a dictionary, and THEN call it a literal translation. He “dug” himself so many “holes” he had to ‘resurrect’ himself into a new personage. No wonder he finds his religion so “comforting”. He is truly at home.
        • Dina says:

          August 17, 2015 at 11:35 am

          Chris, you wrote:

          “Again you want me to cut me off because I say the truth” (my emphasis).

          The word again is highly significant because it suggests that you were previously blocked from this website. You lied about posting as “Lion,” and when I confronted you, you pretended I wanted to talk about the coming of Eliyahu HaNavi.

          But now you are basically admitting that you were previously blocked, and we all know that Lion was blocked recently. How dare you preach to us about being honest and truthful while lying to our faces? That is the height of hypocrisy.

          You also have not retracted your statement that the rabbis tampered with the text by changing the word to “almah.”

          May God have mercy on you.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 17, 2015 at 5:51 pm

            ChristianPaul says:
            August 12, 2015 at 1:33 pm

            Hi Rabbi! You asked : “who actually knew that Mary was a virgin? How did she demonstrate it and to who?”

            Before for the record yesterday I was blocked from replying. I did not understand why? For no reason or justification was communicated to me. Did I say something that touch a cord? When you do that type of censure like some infamous persons in history it only proves the point of those being censured.

            Now concerning Maryam if you read what I wrote you would have an answer. How can you explain that the Muslim all of them believe that Maryam is a Virgin? Does it sound strange that the Coran recognizes the Virginity of Maryam? Why do they believe the testimony of Christians? And how Christians themselves believe or know it?

            The answer is equivalent to the revelation of Sinai: why 12 tribes of Israel believe the Torah when we know that the final canons of Jewish Scriptures were finalized centuries after the event of Sinai took place? Answering that question will answer mine.

            Shalom to you and I forgive you for the injustice you made yesterday. Many blessings and thank you!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 17, 2015 at 7:28 pm

            The only reason Muslims know about Mary is the invasion by Xtians into Arabia.

            Your equivalency falls on its face. Torah was written by Moshe and copies to the Tribes. The Xtian writings weren’t even written until a generation AFTER the events happened. Deal with That.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 18, 2015 at 2:55 am

            Christian You were blocked automatically as were several others because you wrote your former name of E.L. which is blocked from this blog for reasons that you are well aware How do you have the audacity to speak about injustice when you have accused falsely and still have not admitted or apologized
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 17, 2015 at 6:00 pm

            Now i think you’re an actor. Some kinf of comedy show?

            “How can you explain that the Muslim all of them believe that Maryam is a Virgin? Does it sound strange that the Coran recognizes the Virginity of Maryam? Why do they believe the testimony of Christians? And how Christians themselves believe or know it?”

            For other Christians i do not know, but as far as you are concerned, it’s because you are ignorant. And you take your religion from muslims? Really? You are the greatest Christian joke of this age.

            You forgive Rav Blumenthal? What a clown you are.
      • Paul summers says:

        August 17, 2015 at 5:14 pm

        Paul Jesus aspired or believed himself to be the Messiah predicted by the Jewish prophets. the Messiah doesn’t need to multiply the loaves or walk on water. No prophet predicted that the Messiah will do these things. The prophets DID predict that the Messiah will usher in an age of universal peace and obedience to God – this Jesus did not do. His own disciples believed that he was the Messiah and they did not expect him to get killed – this tells us that if you read the Jewish Scriptures without a bias you will never find such an idea in the Jewish Scripture. Only AFTER Jesus FAILED to do what the Messiah is supposed to do did his disciples come up with a new set of rules that the Messiah is supposed to do – in order to maintain their irrational and immoral “faith” in their failed hero. Do you get it now?

        Hi LOL yes I do see your view.

        I dont believe it of course.

        You are correct in stating that Messiah will usher in an age of universal peace. Messiah will bring in peace. But this peace which was offered to the nation of Israel was rejected. Jesus did say “behold the kingdom of God is at hand”. That offer was there, but rejected.

        Now my other point is this. The prohets of the Tanach did perform miracles and gave glory to God. Elijah with the widows son as a example. So miracles on there own dont authenticate Messiaship.

        That I get.

        But ancient rabbinic theories did teach that when Messiah comes He will have Gods Name in Himself, and as Jesus performed miracles in the Spirit of God and by Gods authority, Jesus was authentically showing that He wasnt just ‘a’ prophet.

        So I see it as not being a simply case of the prophets not predicting Messiah doing individual miracles as stated in the NT, but from the viewpoint of the ancient Jews were looking forward to the coming Messiah to reveal His sovereignty through the authentication of His works, which ultimately, when accepted on the whole, would have ushered in the Kingdom. But Math ch 12 shows this offer was finally rejected.

        Jesus did the miracles, claimed them by God’s power and by His own Name. So by His works Jesus substantiates His claim rathering than disproving it.

        When you read John ch 3. The priest recognises Jesus as one “sent from God, for no man can do the signs that you can do unless God is with Him”

        Jesus disciples didnt get it the first time round, thats not a issue for me, its well documented, the Gospels are also clear that Jesus Himself showed them post resurrection about His death being the part of the overall plan.

        So you are stating that the disciples re scrammled everthing to suit there own ideas post the event. That shows an enormous amount of strategy and “theological”manipulation of the Hebrew texts. Bearing in mind that they didnt have a massive knowledge of the texts in the first place. So they reveal there own ignorance, record it and then hide it with a double bluff intertwining the Jewish texts using failed Messiah that just died, and a group of ignorants who didnt know any better.

        I dont think the most brillant minds of academics, NASSA, Hollywood, could have pooled their resources to get even close to what you are proclaiming.

        I think the best thing they could have done was just to forget the whole thing and get back to normal life and hope nobody noticed their stupidity.

        Or did their pride get in the way and they ended dead for nothing? Or is that a conspiracy also, and the next generation took over the conspiracy?

        Im not trying to be rude here, but really???

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 17, 2015 at 7:21 pm

          When did Jsus offer to end the Roman occupation. If not this, then his words were fallow.

          Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 17, 2015 at 7:38 pm

          Paul The prophets did not say that the Messiah will OFFER peace – they spoke of him ruling over a world united in brotherhood in service of God This Jesus did not do. I am not stating that the disciples “scrambled” everything – the Christian Scriptures say so – they only “understood” AFTER the death of Jesus And by the way – it is very difficult for people to admit mistakes – just look at how Christian Paul here on this blog cannot admit that he made a false accusation when he himself supplied all the evidence to prove himself wrong

          Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 17, 2015 at 7:39 pm

          Paul By the way – do you remember our conversation about cherry-picking?

          Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 16, 2015 at 11:59 pm

      Christian,

      The problem is, i have you on the run on many issue concerning the Orthodox Church. You never answered any of it. Ah yes, you said you never prayed to angels, but i proved the Orthodox Church teaches prayers to angels. Something called demonic and from the Devil by the Church Father you love so much, John Chrysostom.

      So, unless you answer my question, or refute my arguments, your comment is meaningless. I’ve made mistakes, i’ve been wrong, when it’s the case or if i get rebuked, i just apologize and move on, trying not to do the same error again. I’ve been in error for so long, on such an important issue of religious truth, i do not have a problem to admit i was wrong. When you told me not to call you Paul, but Christian, i apologized to you and didn’t do it again. But you never apologized to me for your baseless slander, nor to Rav Blumenthal and others when you were caught lying. And yes, i say “lying” because for the virgin thing is is clear. If you come out clean and apologize, i swear i’ll never remind you of all this(unless you do it again). I’ll apologize too for the hot words, my bad grammar and mistakes, and we’ll have a basis for dialogue. But it seems you do not want to dialogue, just preach. Claiming victory as a kid in the kindergarten while running away from the actual arguments.

      You see, i don’t go over Christian Orthodox blogs to preach Judaism. But you come here to preach your view. You made a lot of claims about the Orthodox Church. You didn’t know a former Orthodox Christian would come to challenge you on this. You thought you had people not knowing your Church since they mostly encounter evangelicals, baptists messianics etc.

      In the end, i asked you personnal questions about your membership in the Orthodox Church, because your story is doubtfull and because you slandered me.

      So please, i beg you, if you want all of us to have a meaningfull dialogue, apologize and admit you were wrong in your behavior and claims, and we’ll move on from there.

      Ps: Rav Blumenthal i’m sorry, i saw i posted twice the same comment.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        August 17, 2015 at 1:57 am

        I really think it’s time for Jews to preach Judaism on Christian blogs, (just speaking my own opinion.) All the comments I constantly read by Christians saying, “the Torah leads you to Christ,” while they are always disputing the plain literal historical meaning of the Hebrew bible at every turn is nuts.

        Just yesterday I read a Christian blog reader commenting “G-d did not promise the Levites and Kohanim an eternal priesthood.” This idea of course comes from the book of Hebrews, but that point is irrelevant. The Tanakh mentions the eternal nature of the priests and Levites several times, calling their role “an abiding statute.” The Tanakh flatly contradicts Hebrews. If the Christian claim is that theTorah points to Jesus, then why on earth can’t Christians ever just read the plain simple meaning and accept it?

        If I have an exam in calculus and your provided “study guide” for me is an English textbook, it makes little sense to say “if you look at the deep and spirit filled meaning of the English textbook, it will prepare you for the calculus exam!” That’s ludicrous. If the Torah is the guide that “points the way,” a plain reading of Tanakh sans endless interpretations should suffice.

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 17, 2015 at 2:09 am

          Here are the references to the abiding status of the levites and priesthood
          J
          eremiah 33:17-18 (THIS REFERENCE TO LEVITES AND PRIESTS IS IN A CHAPTER AFTER THE INAUGURATION OF JEREMIAH’s so called “new” COVENANT.)

          Exodus 29:9 (A PERPETUAL STATUTE)

          Exodus 40:15
          Numbers 25:13
          Deuteronomy 18:5
          Malachi 3:3-4

          Malachi 4:1-4 (pay special attention to verse 4)

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 17, 2015 at 2:49 am

            As former Christians you have been cut off from the Holy Church by the hand of the Father. This is the mystery of iniquity.

            What does your text call iniquity Christian Paul? Lawlessness is what iniquity is, as a result, even Christians can be just as full of iniquity. Iniquity is SIN. What is sin? Let’s ask your New Testament what sin is.

            1 John 3:4 Whosoever Commits sin Transgresses also the LAW: for sin is the transgression of the LAW.

            Which law? G-d the father’s law! Jews still observe G-d’s law, his appointed holidays, etc. and in its more straightforward sense, not like the Christians of today. Christians have icons (blatantly against Deuteronomy 4) they eat whatever they want (against Acts 15 in their own book and against the Torah’s kosher laws,)

            Your church embodies one who has “changed the set times and the laws,” Sunday for Shabbat, Easter and pentacost for Shavuot, etc.

            Daniel 7:25 “He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.”

            Your religion says the Torah of Moses was in need of another to “complete it perfectly.” You contrast rabbinic judaism’s (laws of works) and Jesus’ “law of love,” but G-d calls his own Torah from Sinai his covenant of love (Deuteronomy 7:9.)
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 17, 2015 at 4:23 pm

            Peace to you Con!

            The Levite priesthood is now in the house of Israel.

            The Levite were mixed in all the tribes of Israel. If you want to find the Judaism of the second Temple transfigure in the Resurrection light look at the Divine Orthodox Liturgy:

            Many blessings and may the Truth reign in all.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 17, 2015 at 7:17 pm

            You say a lot without any backup.
            If you want to know of the priesthood read Yechezkel about the Third Beit HaMikdash.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 17, 2015 at 7:33 pm

            Christian You accused falsely – admit and apologize
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 17, 2015 at 2:45 am

          ““if you look at the deep and spirit filled meaning of the English textbook, it will prepare you for the calculus exam!””

          Haha this is what i used to say to my parents when they asked me why i never do my homeworks: i’ve read the Illiad of Homer that’s ok i’ll be good on mathematics(never worked lol my grade was between 0 and 8 on 20 in mathematics, always)

          Now i would agree with you, i’ve read in Mishne Torah that part of the order to love God is to make him known to the entire creation. It’s true that the informations shared in here by Rav Blumenthal, or by the forum MessiaTruth etc deserve to be known by Christian and would open some eyes to the truth. I would say the exile shaped the Jewish apologetics, there is not a clear way on how to go on the offensiv.

          Also, we can see today in Israel the conversion crisis, with the violent disagreement between some Orthodoxs and the Chief Rabbinate. This is a particular time. We see the sons of Noah growing, Jewish apologetics growing, many converts also. Time will do its work i think in this area and will clear the ways of doing it.

          What you say about the plain meaning of the text is very true. I would add it is also true for the New Testament. Personally, it’s when i accepted the plain meaning of the NT words that i started to go out of Christianity.

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 17, 2015 at 5:15 am

            Personally, it’s when i accepted the plain meaning of the NT words that i started to go out of Christianity.

            Who knew the would be messiah claimant in the book was actually religiously Jewish huh? 😉
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 17, 2015 at 5:44 am

            Haha. A Bulgarian deacon told me once Avraham, before becoming a hebrew was a bulgarian. Anything is possible!
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 17, 2015 at 12:11 am

      By the way, if you read my story on this blog, i didn’t go from the Orthodox Church directly to Judaism. I first left the Orthodox Church because of internal inconcistencies and remained a Christian after leaving it. At that moment, i was not even interested in what the Rabbis had to say. And if you were open minded, we could talk about it. About Oecumenical Councils, prayers to Angels(also condemned by the Council of Laodicea and Ireneus of Lyon by the way), about Mary’s sinlesness, about Mary’s assumption, about the Canon of Scriptures, etc. all topics you have avoided answering until now. I know it is a hard step to cross, it was not easy for me. I loved the community, the singing of psalms by the monks and in Church, the beauty of icons etc. But truth is what matters in the end, not how painfull the journey can be. If you do not want to dialogue about this here, you have 2 options: 1) stop making claims about the Orthodox Church that you can not back up, or 2) Continue to behave like this, but if Hashem wants it, i’ll keep showing your inconcistencies. But in the end, the Orthodox Church won’t be vindicated. Just like about the tempering of Scriptures. You throw a stone on the Jewish House when your Christian house is made of glass and can not restist to the truth on this topic.

      Reply
      • Concerned Reader says:

        August 17, 2015 at 2:27 am

        Saul, what I noticed when studying Church literature (as a christian) was that because I started my studies with the disciplinary and ethical texts of the epistles, gospels, didache, canons, ie the dos and dont’s found therein, I noticed the incongruity with later very common christian practices and beliefs right away.

        As you say, there are numerous condemnations in the fathers of many practices that are “normal” in the Churches of today. Because I started with the ethics of the Christian texts, (as opposed to the theology,) I suppose its expected that Judaism would be the logical place, because that was the mold drawn from for Christian ethics. Christianity is always explaining why it has the right to be the exception to so many rules, even the prohibitions found in its own text. IE icons are ok because, venerating saints is ok because, eating meat at an idolater’s celebration is ok because etc. Never do they start with the question of “how are we expected to behave according to our books.”

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 17, 2015 at 2:59 am

          Exactly! A domino effect. I think the best example is the one you used about Icons: When you read John of Damascus piece on this issue, it is very telling: Jesus is the image of the Father, we worship the Son, as such we can worship the image of Jesus in icons also. The first twist was with the view of Jesus and incarnation that broke the rule against idolatry, then the icons thing followed(also, notice there was a council of hierria that condemned the worshiping of icons, and it is a point Christian Paul won’t be able to explain why it is not an oecumenical council and he won’t be able to since this council was called by the Emperor and considered itself oecumenical). Also many “saints” condemned the practice, like Epiphanus of Salamine(despite all the “orthodox” attempts to deny it recently).

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 17, 2015 at 5:22 am

            Contrast John of Damascus’ treatise (permitting iconography) with Tertullian’s treatise “on Idolatry,” (which opposes it on every level) and see how close he is (in form at least) with tractate Avodah Zara. Its really interesting that there are some texts where Church and Synagogue seem not to disagree on ethics and proper definitions. I think that Christianity’s need for creedal statements is a huge source of problems.
    • Sharbano says:

      August 17, 2015 at 7:21 am

      It’s quite amusing to see each and every church define the “Real Church” as themselves and them only.
      No man cometh unto the Father but by “this church”.
      You’re the one who is bound to the Greeks with Hellenism and your “septuagint”.
      By the way CP, do you know what a g’nizah is.

      Reply
63. Concerned Reader says:

    August 17, 2015 at 3:43 pm

    Paul Summers. Jesus “failed” as a messiah claimant in the sense that he did not bring restoration to the people of ISRAEL AS A NATION (the target audience and redemptive content of the covenant promises found in scripture.) The prophets all clearly and unambiguously speak of Israel’s restoration to the land, together with a renewed commitment by the people to Mosaic Torah observance, temple, and priesthood. (Malachi 3:4 & 4:4 JEREMIAH 33:17-18) If you notice, Jeremiah 33 is After the supposed “new” covenant of Jeremiah 31, consider that carefully. Even if it really were a New covenant, a set of later promises made cannot annul earlier ones.

    Christians preach a second coming of Jesus. In that case, we will wait and accept his claims when he finishes the job of redemption in a verifiable way. Not even Moses expected to be accepted by Israel until he finished the job of the redemption from slavery in Egypt and spoke to G-d directly on Sinai. We ask the same standard of Jesus. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I understand fully that Christians believe they have had a redemptive experience historically speaking, I’m sympathetic to that, but that experience is not a proof from scripture. Let me explain.

    Millions of Muslims now believe in monotheism when they were formerly polytheists, but that would not make Muhammad a true prophet would it? The Jewish people have a covenant obligation through Moses in all their generations, so, they can’t accept “new” unknown teachings that weren’t known at Sinai.

    Reply
64. ChristianPaul says:

    August 18, 2015 at 8:13 am

    Shalom to all!

    Nice detective inquiry but like many you are mistaken on many points. Let me clarify it for you:

    1) Eli must come before the Messiah therefore your claim of Messiah will be evidently false if Eli does not come back from the Heavens

    2) Do I know Eli that is the question? Obviously if I have posted under my name Christian and someone posted with Eli name this become a mystery. I can tell you again that Eli must come from the Heavens surely you know your Bible and see that Eli was taken in heaven and must come before any true manifestation of the Messiah…

    3) Now concerning the Orthodox Church believe what do you want and your opinion is not relevant to the issues. Did the rabbis tampered with Holy Scriptures and pull off the Holy Name of YHWH from Tanakh in crucial places to change the meaning. The example of Isaiah 7:14 is not yet settle. Where are the excuses and the repentance for having tampered with the text on matter more grave than the almah signification? When cornered your tactics is to make a character assassination proving my points in doing so…

    4) Who is the liars? All men are liars according to the Tanakh. But who is the liar going to hell: The one who denies that the Messiah came into the Flesh (1John2)… this is the lie that make you lose your salvation. This is serious! You can still mock me that is a glory for me. But for the Love of God take your salvation with seriousness… this is not a game!

    May the light of Truth shine upon you that your heart may rejoice in the heavens forever!

    Reply
    • yourphariseefriend says:

      August 18, 2015 at 9:02 am

      Christian All men lie including Jesus Now you have made false accusations – and you have not admitted or apologized. Let me tell you something – if you are so worried about going to hell – admit your mistakes and apologize for them and you will have taken one step to get out of the hell that you are creating for yourself – I mean you have a choice – you could wake up tomorrow morning and be the same petty person you were today – or you could mitigate your pettiness a bit – its your choice

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 18, 2015 at 9:46 am

        Rabbi shalom upon you!

        You responded falsely to one question:

        4) Who is the liars? You responded by a blaspheme! All men are liars except the Son made Flesh! You are continuing in your sin as a continual denial of reality because like Pharaoh the One God has hardened your heart to show the world how He will make his footstool. All liberties are respected here! Who is like the One God of Israel!

        Where are the excuses and the repentance for having tampered with the text on matter more grave than the almah signification? When cornered your tactic is to make a character assassination proving my points in doing so…

        Now concerning my two other question still you deviate the subject on me instead on the demonstrated tampering. I remind you that in the DSS the Holy Name of YHWH is in Isaiah 7:14 but not in the Masoreitic! That is called major tampering! When we know that in the Dead See Scrolls we read:

        ” YHWH behold the Almah… ” That is a game changer for honest people for it confirms Luke Gospel of the Annunciation of Maryam. (Luke 1)

        Therefore it is apparent that you are not seeker of truth but keepers of the the false Judaism that your corrupt Rabbis created after the council of Jamnia, after the Second Temple Destruction. A clear sign that God has abandoned you as a punishment for rejecting his Messiah, His Son.

        Convert if you want to escape the wrath of the Almighty for no one comes to the Father without the Son. Your religion is a major delusion for having hated the Truth!

        May the Truth prevail in all!

        Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 18, 2015 at 9:58 am

          Christian I did not tamper with any texts – You made false accusations You know that you did and you know that everyone on this blog knows that you did and you still cannot bring yourself to apologize – how sad

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 18, 2015 at 10:15 am

            Rabbi peace be upon you!

            You did not tamper it personally but your leaders of old did. And still after clear proof you continue to accuse me and divert the subject on me. You can not afford to drag with you thousand of poor souls into Hell. The teachers of falsehood will be cast into the deepest of Hell. If you think this is a picnic or maybe reincarnation will save you then do not be seduced by the satan, Hell is so much worse than the worst of any war including WWII.

            Eli is on my side and I know that his teaching is the truth. He confirms Yeshua as the One True Messiah of Israel. Un-tampered Scriptures confirms the Messiah and Isaiah 7:14 is the promise sign given to all. Imagine Isaiah prophecy getting realized in our present time:

            ” YHWH behold the Almah “… This is beautiful the clear sign that the son to be born in the Flesh is the Son of God the Immanu-EL God with Us. Can’t you see??

            May the Truth prevail in all!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 18, 2015 at 11:51 am

            You should do a more thorough job of reading Isaiah. Read the following chapter and learn of Immanuel.

            According to you there must be TWO (2) gods in the flesh. There is the birth in Isaah’s time and your supposed virgin birth.

            In any event you still haven’t admitted they all use “almah”, which isn’t virgin in any event.
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 18, 2015 at 1:05 pm

            Christian So you have Eli on your side, you have John Chrysostom on your side – why do you think that I would want to stand with you? If you fear hell – get yourself as far away from those hateful people as possible
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 18, 2015 at 11:05 am

            Christian Paul, stop your text dancing, you make a fool of yourself. Mytho Mytho comme on dit chez moi.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 18, 2015 at 11:16 am

            lol Christian Paul, you are saying that your Orthodox Church has a corrupt Old Testament for 2000 years. Aren’t you ashamed sometimes by what you write? The Holy Ghost was supposed to lead you into all truth but he couldn’t give you a non corrupt Old Testament? This point alone is a death blow to your own claims.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 18, 2015 at 2:04 pm

            I think when i post too many links it puts the moderation on
          • Dina says:

            August 18, 2015 at 2:06 pm

            Saul, yes, no more than two links at a time, or intersperse them between paragraphs.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 18, 2015 at 2:21 pm

            Ah Dina, thanks i didn’t know. It is a post about John Chrysostom and how he refutes some Orthodox Church teachings, even on idolatry. So each time i quote Chrysostom, i put a link to the source and there are too many!
        • Sharbano says:

          August 18, 2015 at 11:36 am

          The “son made flesh” comes from corrupted texts. There’s Just enough truth in Xtianity to make it a “test” from Hashem to see whether or not we will be faithful to Him and not some man-god. The warning was given; do Not go after “wood and stone”. Every church has the idol of “wood”.
          I’ve already proven to you that your Isaiah 7:14 written in the Septuagint is THE one with serious problems.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 18, 2015 at 12:30 pm

            Sharbano peace upon you!

            Your false accusation are your own belief not the reality. We worship the God of Abraham! Your are spreading a lie. also the Septuagint is a non issue:

            We are here comparing the Dead Sea Scroll pre-Christ to the Masoreitic text post-Christ. And we have demonstrated that the Masoreitic pull off the Holy Name of God: YHWH from the Holy Text. That is major! You can continue in your denial but that only show that you are more attached to your tradition than to the truth.

            May the truth prevail in all!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 18, 2015 at 12:43 pm

            The G-d of Avraham wasn’t split into three parts. There was no man-god that visited Avraham.

            The Septuagint IS the issue. This is what started it all. We know it has serious errors when it wasn’t even able to correctly translate 70. THIS is One of the many issues that Origen confronted.

            We know NO such thing regarding DSS vs Masoretic text. This is a lie Xtianity simply HAD to come up with since their own texts were a failure. We can also determine the Hellenistic Essenes were the authors of the scrolls. We also know they didn’t have the Traditions that kept the Pharisees and subsequently, to this current generation, which is what G-d had said would be the case. The Essenes are no more, and, we can understand why. They did Not keep the Traditions of their fathers.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 18, 2015 at 1:02 pm

            “We are here comparing the Dead Sea Scroll pre-Christ to the Masoreitic text post-Christ. And we have demonstrated that the Masoreitic pull off the Holy Name of God: YHWH from the Holy Text. ”

            Lol. Notice the “we”. Now CP is using some plural of majesty for himself. Or do you mean you and E Lion? The Youtube Orthodox Scholar twins? I know you won’t answer, but i comment anyway. Later readers will then be able to see how you run away.
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 18, 2015 at 2:32 pm

          Christian Paul, you accuse the rabbis of tampering with the Tanakh because you say they replaced the 4 letter name of G-d, found in the great Isaiah scroll 7:14, with Adonai.

          Adonai is a common stand in for the 4 letter name of G-d even IN TORAH! Your accusation is completely without merit! Was Jesus blaspheming when he said, Eli…Eli..? Eli is not hashem’s 4 letter designation now is it? Speaking of ridiculous, Jesus was an Aramaic speaking Jew, (any NT scholar will tell you this.) We know this because scholars can translate the Greek back into period proper Aramaic, and certain passages (which make no sense in Greek) make perfect sense in Aramaic. So, your entire argument is somewhat odd.

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 18, 2015 at 2:58 pm

            Furthermore, the accusation that the rabbis have heaped tradition and burdens onto the Torah, belies the entire New Testament claim, because of the very nature of the New Testament as a document. What is the NT as a text? Why were gospel writers deemed by the community of Christians to have the authority to interpret the life of Jesus and the Hebrew bible? Here is an answer.

            The New Testament as a document is a collection of Christian oral transmissions of Jesus’ sayings, parables, life events, Christian interpretations of Hebrew scripture, etc. that were eventually written down as we now have them.

            THE NT IS FOR LACK OF A BETTER PHRASE THE CHRISTIAN Halachic and Aggadic MIDRASH OF THE TORAH. This fact not only makes the accusation against the rabbis absurd, (as Jesus’ students are doing exactly what they supposedly blame the rabbis for doing,) but it tells us something vitally important.

            In order for us to posses the gospels and accept them as authoritative today, Jesus’ movement MUST HAVE ON SOME LEVEL in the past accepted the common assumptions that Pharisees, and modern religious Jews make concerning the Bible, its teachers, its content, and its transmission.

            In other words, if Jesus’ students had been Sadducees or Samaritans, its unlikely that the gospels would be regarded as divinely inspired. The NT assumes a Pharisaic paradigm for reading the Bible.
    • Sharbano says:

      August 18, 2015 at 9:13 am

      You would make a good politician given your non-answers as an answer.
      You still haven’t commented regarding Origen’s observations of the Septuagint. What we Do know is the Xtian text is corrupted in such a way that it affects its own theology.
      We can also conclude that if the DSS is in agreement with the Septuagint than the likelihood is those were the Essene Hellenists. Considering they had constructed a Temple in Alexandria would give evidence to their lack of following Torah. It would also create suspicions whether they could maintain accuracy in their writings. By deductive reasoning we can dismiss your arguments from the words of Origen regarding the Septuagint and the similarity of the DSS to that errant book. We can also use deductive reasoning on whether the Rabbis collaborated in changing the text. We have evidence of Sefer Torah’s throughout the world which bear witness to the truth that the Rabbis maintain a strict adherence to accuracy. We can conclude Just The Opposite with regards to the “Church” and their changing their Own Xtian texts.

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 18, 2015 at 10:05 am

        Sharbano peace be upon you!

        1) Concerning Origen you think he is accepted in the Holy Church. He was considered heretic in Council of the Church. I do not follow his teachings.

        2) Concerning the production of the Tanakh you believe simplistically that it was produced without any delay between the events and the written text. You forget the power of those who seat on the chair of Moses and like the popes had so-called authority on all the Text. (They had authority to be guardian of the Purity of the Holy Text and Holy Tradition not to tamper and add men made precepts to burden the People)

        It is based on this concept that they judged suitable in the Masoreitic text to change it to better suit their view, especially with the growing of the powerful Christian arguments. They were cornered on all side and the only way to get out of it was tampering to implement the fog of confusion on clear prophetic Christian passages.

        Now believe what you want but if you really seek the truth you will investigate those matters very seriously.

        May the Truth always prevail in all!

        Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 18, 2015 at 11:45 am

          Who said anything regarding Origen’s “teachings”. We are discussing the corrupted Septuagint. Whether you agree with his philosophy is of no consequence. What stands without question is his research, corroborated by others, regarding the problems with the Septuagint. As a result YOU don’t even Know WHICH Septuagint you have.
          We DO know the canon of the Xtian text were taken from copies of copies, which were Not in agreement. Considering all the additions to the text that weren’t there NONE of those texts can have any validity.
          If “They” had such powerful arguments why then do you not use them, because NONE of yours are up to the task.

          Reply
        • yourphariseefriend says:

          August 18, 2015 at 1:02 pm

          Christian How do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can’t admit an obvious mistake?

          Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 18, 2015 at 2:05 pm

          1) Concerning Origen you think he is accepted in the Holy Church. He was considered heretic in Council of the Church. I do not follow his teachings.

          Christian Paul, the second council of Constantinople in 553 CE Canon 11 never explicitly outlines what Origen himself taught that was deemed heretical. Also, he had been long dead when he was condemned by the council.

          “If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books, and also all other heretics who have already been condemned and anathematized by the holy, catholic and apostolic church and by the four holy synods which have already been mentioned, and also all those who have thought or now think in the same way as the aforesaid heretics and who persist in their error even to death: let him be anathema.”

          http://orthodoxwiki.org/Origen

          As the article suggests, It was likely some Novatian leanings (The Novatians held strict beliefs that lapsed Christians (such as those involved in Roman idol worship post baptism) should not be readmitted to the church,) that he may have held, and his reliance on Plato, combined with his very strict asceticism that got him placed under anathema.

          His strict asceticism (he castrated himself) came from certain words of Jesus, but was largely motivated by the Platonic belief that the desires of the flesh, and the mortal body were a material prison of sorts. As a result LATER Christians, almost 100 years after Origen died, deemed him heretical after groups had gone to extremes with his works. So, Christian Paul, saying you don’t follow Origen and his “heresies” means nothing, because he is still regarded as one of the first true theologians of the orthodoxy, and you can’t even explicitly say exactly what heresy he is accused of, because nobody actually knows.

          Reply
      • Saul Goodman says:

        August 18, 2015 at 11:12 am

        “1) Concerning Origen you think he is accepted in the Holy Church. He was considered heretic in Council of the Church. I do not follow his teachings.”

        John of Damascus too was considered a heretic at the Iconoclast oecumenical Council, yet you follow his teachings. Photius was also condemned at the Council of 869, yet he s a Saint of your Church, since another Council contradicted the former in 879. You have no leg to stand on. But i advise you to read Father Dvornik book on the Photian Schism to know more about the contradictory 8th oecumenical councils(i try to help you to get some knowledge of your own Church, see how nice i am).

        “. They were cornered on all side and the only way to get out of it was tampering to implement the fog of confusion on clear prophetic Christian passages.”

        Really? Prove to me that the “prophecy” “he shall be called a nazarene” appear in any MSS of the “Old Testament”. Choose the LXX, DSS, anything you want. But you won’t be able to 🙂

        Reply
    • Dina says:

      August 18, 2015 at 11:38 am

      Listen up, Chris. I don’t think you are actually bothering to read what people are writing here.That’s a big problem because you are closing your ears and your mind to our words, and this prevents an honest and fair discussion from taking place.

      So listen carefully.

      First, the DSS does not say “the Lord behold the almah.” I finally got around to checking for myself. It is word for word the same as the Masoretic text with one difference: The Great Isaiah Scroll uses the Tetragrammaton and the Masoretic uses the name “Ado-nai.”

      These are the questions you must answer:

      1. What is the significance in terms of prophecy of using one name over the other? How does this change the outcome of the prophecy?

      2. How do you know for sure that the DSS is the pure and uncorrupted text? It was in possession of a sectarian group that may well have been careless in their copying of the text.

      3. Why do you insist that the DSS reads “The Lord behold the almah” when it clearly does not?

      4. Why do you ignore the fact that you falsely accused the rabbis of changing “betulah” to “almah”? Why is it okay for you to tell lies and not for anyone else?

      5. You have been caught in your lie about not knowing who Eli Lion is and insisting he is someone other than yourself. Why is it okay for you to persist in this lie? Why don’t you just come clean?

      Everyone here will respect you more when you admit your lies and apologize for your false accusations. Until then, we will continue to see as you are: a pathetic liar who can’t admit when he’s wrong.

      Reply
      • Saul Goodman says:

        August 18, 2015 at 12:08 pm

        Dina, if you had the holy ghost, you would see that Alma means virgin, that the LXX is the original Torah before it was translated into hebrew, that Christian Paul is the reincarnation of Moses and that Rabbis changed Genesis since the original Genesis reads: We made man in the image of Jesus and his grandson Christian Paul.

        Anyway, CP’s behavior vindicates the RamBam when he quoted the prophet Daniel, ” ‘The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'”.

        Reply
        • Dina says:

          August 18, 2015 at 12:38 pm

          Lol, Saul!

          Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 18, 2015 at 1:28 pm

        Peace be upon you Dina!

        You said: 4. Why do you ignore the fact that you falsely accused the rabbis of changing “betulah” to “almah”? Why is it okay for you to tell lies and not for anyone else?

        Almah or betulah are synonyms especially in ancient times. For every maiden was supposed to be a virgin. The Septuagint confirms that but you deny it and want me to force me to admit your view which is modern but not Orthodox nor Traditional.

        Now the Holy Name can not be removed to contradict the Christian argument for when you read correctly it is written in the DSS this:

        ” YHWH behold the Almah… ” is what we see apparent in the DSS the other words are presumably what we commonly translate…

        http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#7:14

        Here are two videos explaining the differences of the DSS versus the Masoreitic

        Also concerning Eli who knows the true Eli… that is the question? For it is important to know that he must precede the Messiah coming. Therefore no Messiah without Eli return from the Heavens. (This is the true Orthodox belief in Christianity and Judaism)

        May the truth prevail in all!

        Reply
        • Dina says:

          August 18, 2015 at 1:59 pm

          Chris Lion, your answer is as dishonest as I have come to expect from you. Quel dommage!

          If almah and betulah are synonyms, why would it have been a big deal if the rabbis changed it? You made a big deal out of it, Chris Lion. You accused the rabbis of changing betulah to almah. They didn’t, and you yourself unwittingly provided the evidence. So why can’t you just say, “Sorry, I made a mistake”?

          For the record, almah does not necessarily mean betulah. In fact, in Proverbs 30:20 the word almah can only mean a woman who has had sexual relations and thus cannot mean a virgin.

          You are making a joke about the whole Lion thing. I didn’t ask you about Eliyahu HaNavi’s coming. I just want you to stop denying that you previously posted on this blog under a different screen name, which happens to include the name “Eliyah” and the name “Lion” in it. It has nothing to do with Eliyahu HaNavi. Why do you persist in your lies?

          Please answer these and my other questions, which you ignored. The DSS does not say “The Lord behold the almah” so why do you keep saying so?

          What is the difference in terms of prophecy if the Tetragrammaton is used as opposed to “Ado-nai”?

          And so on.

          Stop running away.

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 18, 2015 at 2:17 pm

            The petition is on 😀 https://www.change.org/p/christian-paul-stop-running-away
          • Dina says:

            August 18, 2015 at 3:55 pm

            Lol, too funny!
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 18, 2015 at 4:57 pm

            Peace to you Dina!

            Your almah versus betulah contention is a false debate. First you counter it with Proverbs 30:20 which does not employ the word ALMAH but ISHA which mean woman. Actually from your own Masoreitic Text here is Proverbs 30:20

            כֵּן דֶּרֶךְ אִשָּׁה מְנָאָפֶת אָכְלָה וּמָחֲתָה פִיהָ וְאָמְרָה לֹא־פָעַלְתִּי אָוֶן

            Where do you see ALMAH? Again your distort Scriptures leading astray poor people who can not read Hebrew. What a shame! Almah means unmarried-woman, a maiden which in ancient times implied virginity. Of course in our present time like in the day of Noah this not the case, but you can not judge things of the past culture with your own corrupt culture of promiscuity. Wake up!

            You see now that the spirit leading you is hiding you the truth. You should ask forgiveness for what you just did.

            Now concerning Eliyah you have a real fixation on this man. I found his comments quite true. He was like fire but I will personally not dare to talk like He did. Do I know Him? Might be, God knows!

            But as an Orthodox Christian is view were way to far in the Doctrine. To advance for the humble me. As a brother I will stick to the Orthodox Faith given by the glorious Apostles and let Eliyah do what He has to do.

            May the truth always prevail!

            P.S.: Honoring Eliyah Hanavi and promoting Him is not a sin but a great duty and reminder that without Him no true Messiah can be proclaimed. You should all know that especially your Rabbi.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 18, 2015 at 6:17 pm

            You still haven’t addressed the fact the child spoken therein would be in the time of two kings that Ahaz feared. Therefore there are two virgin births and two demi-gods.
          • Sharbano says:

            August 18, 2015 at 6:27 pm

            If Isaiah intended to write this verse as virgin, using “almah”, then WHY did he choose “Betulah” in the places where he definitely meant virgin. Or, is it your contention that the Rabbis changed those also.
          • Dina says:

            August 18, 2015 at 7:17 pm

            Hi Chris,

            I just saw this and was about to say, “Oops, I meant 30:19, please forgive my mistake,” because unlike you I have no problem correcting the errors I make. But I see that Jim has already pointed that out. So my original argument still stands and you still have to answer to it. And you have to apologize for calling me a liar because being mistaken is not the same as lying.

            I see you are no longer denying that are Lion, but now you seem to be saying that we have to honor you because you are Eliyahu HaNavi. Have you been forgetting to take your medication?
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 18, 2015 at 7:34 pm

            Saul Goodman’s comment

            But is John Chrysostom really on Christian Paul’s side?

            The evidence points to the contrary.

            1) If John Chrysostom accuses the Jews of corrupting the “Old Testament”, it is not about Isaiah 7:14, but about the supposed prophecy quoted in the Gospel of Matthew, “He shall be called a Nazarene”. Now, since this quote does not appear in the DSS, what Christian Paul is proving is that Matthew, or the Translator of Matthew from Hebrew to Greek, made up a prophecy that does not exist, in order to decieve the Jews to accept Yeshu.

            2) John Chrysostom advocated the confession of one’s sins only to God, and not to men, wich contradicts the Christian Orthodox teaching and practice(without confession to the Priest or Spiritual Father, the Orthodox Christian layman is forbiden from communion). Here is what John Chrysostom wrote, first in french for CP Eli to understand, then in English:

            “Eh ! pourquoi, je vous le demande, rougiriez-vous de dire vos fautes? Est-ce que vous les dites à un homme pour qu’il vous en fasse des reproches? Est-ce que vous les avouez à votre compagnon de servitude afin qu’il aille les divulguer? c’est à votre Seigneur, c’est à un père tendre et attentif, c’est à un médecin que vous montrez vos plaies. Quand vous ne lui confesseriez pas vos fautes, il ne les ignorerait pas, lui qui les connaissait avant qu’elles fussent commises. Pourquoi ne lui en feriez-vous pas l’aveu? Votre accusation, loin de rendre plus pesant le fardeau de vos péchés, le rend plus léger et plus doux. Le Seigneur veut que vous déclariez vos fautes, non pour les punir, mais pour vous (497) les pardonner; non pour apprendre de vous que vous êtes coupable, puisqu’il le sait par lui-même , mais pour que vous appreniez quelle dette il vous remet. Il veut que vous connaissiez la grandeur du bienfait qu’il vous accorde, afin que vous ne cessiez de lui en rendre grâce, afin que vous soyez plus lent à commettre le péché, et plus ardent à pratiquer la vertu. Si vous ne déclarez pas la grandeur de la dette, vous ne reconnaîtrez pas tout le prix de la rémission. Je ne vous force pas, dit-il, de paraître en plein théâtre et de prendre un grand nombre de témoins. Confessez votre faute à moi seul en particulier, afin que je guérisse votre plaie et que je vous délivre de vos douleurs (1).” http://www.abbaye-saint-benoit.ch/saints/chrysostome/homt2/lazare/lazare004.htm

            “Why are you ashamed and blush to confess your sin? Why speak of it to man, who may blame you? Why confess it to your fellow-servant, who may cause you shame? Rather show it to the Master, to Him who cares for you, who is kindly-disposed; show the wound to the Physician.3

            And even if you do not confess, He is not ignorant of the deed, who knew it before it was committed. Why then do you not speak of it? Does the transgression become heavier by the confession?—-nay, it becomes lighter and less troublesome. And it is for this reason that He would have you confess, not that you should be punished, but that you should be forgiven; not that He may learn thy sin, (how could this be, since He has seen it,) but that you may learn what favour He bestows. He wishes you to learn the greatness of His grace, that you may praise Him perfectly, that you may be slower to sin, that you may be quicker to virtue. And if you do not confess the greatness of the need, you will not understand the exceeding magnitude of His grace. I do not oblige you, He saith, to come into the midst of the assembly before a throng of witnesses; declare the sin in secret to Me only,” http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chrysostom_four_discourses_04_discourse4.htm

            3) John Chrysostom called the practice of praying to angels, demonic and satanical:

            “So great things does this Name Work. If you have said, In the Name of Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost, with faith, you have accomplished everything. See, how great things you have done! You have created a man, and wrought all the rest (that comes) of Baptism! So, when used in commanding diseases, terrible is The Name. Therefore the devil introduced those of the Angels, envying us the honor. Such incantations are for the demons. Even if it be Angel, even if it be Archangel, even if it be Cherubim, allow it not; for neither will these Powers accept such addresses, but will even toss them away from them, when they have beheld their Master dishonored. I have honored you, He says, and have said, Call upon Me; and do you dishonor Him?” http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230309.htm

            “Ce nom du Seigneur, ce nom qui commande aux maladies, devient une arme terrible. Voilà pourquoi le démon, jaloux du privilège que Dieu accorde à l’homme, a introduit le culte des anges. Oui, ce sont là des sortilèges du démon. Ne vous y prêtez point, qu’il s’agisse d’un ange,’d’un archange, ou d’un chérubin; car ces puissances, loin d’accueillir vos prières, les rejetteront, en voyant que vous humiliez Dieu. Je vous ai honoré, dit Dieu, et je vous ai dit : Invoquez-moi, et vous outragez Dieu. Ces paroles magiques prononcées avec foi, mettront en fuite les maladies et- les démons, et, si la maladie ne disparaît pas, ce n’est pas la faute du moyen que volis employez, c’est que ce n’est pas votre avantage.” http://www.abbaye-saint-benoit.ch/saints/chrysostome/colossiens/colos09.htm

            In contrast to John Chrysostom’s teaching, Christian Paul’s Orthodox Church teaches to pray to Angels:

            “Prayer to Your Guardian Angel O Angel of Christ, holy guardian and protector of my soul and body, forgive me of everything I have done to offend you every day, and protect me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. May I never offend God by my sin. Pray for me to the Lord, that He may make me worthy of the grace of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Most Blessed Theotokos, and of all the Saints. Amen.” http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/OtherPrayers.html This Internet edition of the Orthodox Prayer Book was compiled for Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church, Lowell, Massachusetts by Father Peter Gregory.

            So, now, if Christian Paul takes Chrysostom as a reliable witness towards a Jewish corruption of the Tanakh, he must also take Chrysostom as a reliable witness towards the Orthodox Church’s deviations from the original teachings of the Early Church, a corruption of its dogmas and practices. Chrysostom’s testimony backfires against him.

            From: 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources

            Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2015 4:57 PM To: iblumenthal@yeshivanet.com Subject: [1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources] Comment: “What Do Miracles Prove?”
          • Dina says:

            August 18, 2015 at 7:54 pm

            Chris, why do you stand by John Chrysostom when he had this to say about the Jews?

            “The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition.”…”I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason” (my emphasis).

            How are you not ashamed of this Jew hater?

            Perhaps you think it’s okay to hate God’s firstborn son?
          • Jim says:

            August 18, 2015 at 6:49 pm

            Lion, Christian, Whatever you call yourself this week,

            Your distasteful employment of personal invective is in force, I see. You call Dina a liar. Is this a fair charge? Let us see.

            I do not wish to write for Dina; she is a much better writer than I am and more knowledgeable to boot. So, I hope she will forgive my presumption.

            I believe that Dina meant Proverbs 30.19, which references an almah that has sexual relations with a man, which does not leave a sign. Therefore, an almah cannot be a virgin, for a virgin, a betulah, leaves a sign after sex. You can see that this relates to verse 20. And, if you were attentive, you would have noticed that the word “almah” is the word right before v. 20 (actually b’almah).

            Before accusing her of lying, you should have asked if she had the correct verse. If you had employed your wits, you probably could have identified the verse itself, possibly by employing a concordance. Instead, you jumped to your old stand-by, accusing your opponents of lies. Meanwhile, you continue to lie about yourself. Moreover you do not have the integrity to retract your many errors.

            Your too hasty judgments make you appear a fool. It would do you much credit if you ceased both your name-calling and your rhapsodizing. Do not worry, though. I certainly do not expect you to do either. A leopard may change his screen name, but not his spots.

            Jim
          • Dina says:

            August 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm

            Thanks, Jim! You are too kind.
65. ChristianPaul says:

    August 18, 2015 at 8:06 pm

    Shalom to you Dina and Jim!

    Dina where did I called you a liar? Can you show me?

    1)Please be honest and stop the character assassination! You again twist my words to for your own glorification. I hope you would have just admitted your mistake.

    2)Concerning Eliyah do you honestly think that he has descended here? Therefore if again you were honest you will not have twisted my words.

    3)Concerning Proverbs 30:19 the NKJV translate Almah as a virgin:

    18 There are three things which are too wonderful for me,
    Yes, four which I do not understand:
    19 The way of an eagle in the air,
    The way of a serpent on a rock,
    The way of a ship in the midst of the sea,
    And the way of a man with a virgin (ALMAH).

    20 This is the way of an adulterous woman:
    She eats and wipes her mouth,
    And says, “I have done no wickedness.”

    Also when you at a famous passage when our father Isaac meet Rebeka we see the word Almah translated to virgin for Rebeka:

    43 behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass that when the virgin (ALMAH) comes out to draw water, and I say to her, “Please give me a little water from your pitcher to drink,” 44 and she says to me, “Drink, and I will draw for your camels also,”—let her be the woman whom the Lord has appointed for my master’s son.’

    45 “But before I had finished speaking in my heart, there was Rebekah, coming out with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down to the well and drew water. And I said to her, ‘Please let me drink.’ (Genesis 24)

    Now Dina do you think that the Almah in Genesis here Rebekah was not a virgin??

    I hope that now you understand the value of the beautiful word ALMAH …

    May the truth prevail in all!

    Reply
    • Jim says:

      August 18, 2015 at 9:09 pm

      C. Paul,

      Are you going to lecture us on Hebrew, really? It is clear that you do not read it. This is obvious from the fact that when you made your wild claim that the rabbis changed the word “betulah” to “almah,” you could not find the word in the dss. It took me about five minutes, and I do not read much Hebrew, either.

      So now, here you are, having proven to have invented the charge, which was based on your ignorance. What do you do, next, invent another charge. And then, unable to muster the integrity to say that you were wrong, you press on with the point. You say that “almah” means “virgin.” Well, if so, then why did you accuse the rabbis of changing the word? By bringing that charge, you already admitted that it does not mean “virgin”.

      But now, you bring in an incompetent translation. I suppose you feel that as long as you can find someone to support your view, then it must be true. But, you should have thought about the passage. Proverbs 30:19 demands that “almah” not be a virgin. Each of the three things mentioned before a man with an “almah” are things that leave no trace. That is there common element. A man with a virgin does leave a trace. There is an alteration. With an “almah”? Not so.

      Almah does not relate to a woman’s sexual experience. When Torah makes laws regarding virgins, it uses the word “betulah”. In fact, almah has a masculine counterpart, “elem”. Betulah has no such counterpart.

      The word “almah,” when applied to Rebekah, clearly is not referring to a virgin. He is going to ask a young woman to draw water for him. He cannot ask a virgin, qua virgin, because he will not be able to identify one by sight. If he were talking about a virgin, he would have prayed that the woman he asks to fetch the water, be the virgin whom God appointed for Isaac. That is to say, the word order would be reversed. This is obvious, because only God would know that she was a virgin.

      Jim

      Reply
      • Jim says:

        August 18, 2015 at 9:11 pm

        I see Dina beat me to the punch. Well, great minds and all that…

        Jim

        Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 19, 2015 at 12:10 am

        Jim Peace to you!

        You just confirmed my point!

        Plus to clear you foggy thoughts here another confirmation from Scriptures in the Song of Salomon chapter 6:

        8 There are sixty queens
        And eighty concubines,
        And virgins (ALAMOT) without number.
        9 My dove, my perfect one,
        Is the only one,
        The only one of her mother,
        The favorite of the one who bore her.
        The daughters saw her
        And called her blessed,
        The queens and the concubines,
        And they praised her. (NKJV)

        In case you did not known ALAMOT is the plural of ALMAH.

        Also to clarify your thoughts here a passage of Job where Betulah is used:

        1″I have made a covenant with my eyes; How then could I gaze at a virgin? ” (JOB 31)

        How can he know that he is looking at a virgin when only God knows??

        Hopefully you will stop decrying honest scholars who translated correctly Almah as Virgin like did the Greeks (Septuagint) pre-Christ who had no agenda.

        May the truth prevail in all!

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 19, 2015 at 12:55 am

          Show me a single pe christian MSS of Isaiah-LXX. It simply does not exist.

          Reply
        • Sharbano says:

          August 19, 2015 at 6:20 am

          Just because YOUR translation says virgin doesn’t make it so. Not all the translations have Shir HaShirim as virgin.

          In any event WHY do you keep avoiding the question. If Isaiah says virgin then there must be Two (2) virgins and thus 2 virgin births and two messiahs.

          Furthermore Isaiah uses Betulah, as virgin, in several other places so why wouldn’t he use it in 7.
          You started out saying the verse DOES NOT have almah SO you previously KNEW that almah did NOT mean virgin there. You change your story and then act like yesterday never happened.
          Furthermore, you STILL cannot dispute what Origen said about the Septuagint and its failed translation. It is clear by the fact that translation has 75 for the number of those that went up to Egypt. Explain THAT , And, which Septuagint did the church use.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 8:58 am

            Sharbano Peace to you!

            You are a sincere man. Forget any human mistake. All humans make mistakes but that should not keep us from seeking always the truth in all matters. We are all here in a learning process willed by HaShem to educate us and to interact with each others more and more with respect:

            The test is: are we able not to insult and make character assassination when we think we defend the truth. Are we defending our conception or the true conception of God intended? All men are sinners you see sin as a small matter but we see sin as having degraded our humanity. We think in foggy thoughts we have difficulty understanding basic truth we are always looking for a meaning but in the end we will be judged by how we love God and loved our brothers.

            You say that Israel is the first born. Is Israel only made of two tribes? Where is the rest of Israel? In the plan of God did HaShem wanted to bring back all the lost souls from the other tribes? Is the Messiah intended for the just or the sinners of the lost tribes? You wait for a Messiah, wait! We have found the Humble Messiah of the rest of Israel those who you denigrate as idol worshippers based in your understanding of a Tanakh who was deformed in details to hide the true Revelation. God knows that and He will act. Be certain of that!

            In the mean time, let us have more respect for each other and always act with a clean conscience. For my part I see the Most High as a loving Father who loves all his children not only the Jews. If the Jews are special you should not act in pride but in a spirit of service for the good of the rest of God children.

            Does a big brother insult and denigrate his little brothers, bullying on them… or does he help his little brothers and protect them from any evil…?

            Many blessings and may the Truth prevail in all!
    • Sharbano says:

      August 18, 2015 at 9:40 pm

      You are once again distorting the text by not realizing what is what. As it says previously, “I am Abraham’s servant”. This is his usage in the narrative. If you look previously it actually gives a definition.
      16)
      “Now the maiden was very fair to look upon; a virgin whom no man had known.”
      The word there is Betulah. at it says that word refers to one who has not known a man. That’s “to know” in the biblical sense I hope you realize. I believe I have already noted that Isaiah makes a number of references to virgin and in THOSE cases the word used is Betulah.

      Just like you had done in your previous incarnation with saying “face to face” when it was “mouth to mouth”. You get tripped up over and over again and then try to weasel out of it.

      Reply
66. Dina says:

    August 18, 2015 at 8:48 pm

    Hey, Chris, you asked where you accused me of lying; here it is:

    “Again your distort Scriptures leading astray poor people who can not read Hebrew.” Here you imply that I selected a verse and distorted on purpose to lead “astray poor people who can not read Hebrew.” That is a vicious charge for which you ought to apologize if you are man enough and humble enough.

    Please stop being ridiculous. To say that almah means virgin in the context of Proverbs 30:19-20 makes absolutely no sense. It’s talking about an adulterous woman. How can an adulterous woman be a virgin? Maybe your parents never had the talk with you?

    Here is a list of bibles that translate almah in that passage as woman, young woman, maid, or maiden (NOT virgin): NIV, NLV, NASB, HCSB, ISV, NET Bible, King James 2000 Bible, American King James Version, ASV, Darby Bible Translation, English Revised Edition, Webster’s Bible Translation, World English Bible.

    Tell me, Chris, if almah and betulah are synonymous, why did you make such a big deal about your accusation that the rabbis changed it?

    Tell me, also, Chris, why do you still persist in refusing to admit that you were mistaken that the rabbis changed the text and to apologize for your false accusation?

    And tell me, Chris, why you won’t answer all my other questions?

    Finally, here is a yes or no question. Did you ever post on this blog previously under a different screen name? Yes or no?

    Reply
    • Dina says:

      August 18, 2015 at 9:01 pm

      Also, Chris Lion, you wrote: “Concerning Eliyah do you honestly think that he has descended here? Therefore if again you were honest you will not have twisted my words.”

      How many times do I have to tell you that I am not talking about Elijah the Prophet but about a guy who called himself Eliyah who commented on this blog until he was blocked because all he did was call everyone liars and did not respond to arguments?

      You also wrote: “Now concerning Eliyah you have a real fixation on this man. I found his comments quite true. He was like fire but I will personally not dare to talk like He did. Do I know Him? Might be, God knows!”

      Hmm…you’re acting all mysterious now. Do you know him? Maybe. Not telling!

      You’re not fooling anyone here. Lion believes he is Elijah the Prophet. You also believe he (you) is Elijah the Prophet. You both speak French as your native tongue. You both make exactly the same arguments. You write in the same style and voice. You make the same character assaults and hurl the same curses at your opponents. “I will personally not dare to talk like He did”–ha ha, really? You do talk like he did, exactly so! And as Larry discovered, your YouTube video uses the names of both these characters.

      Conclusion: Both these characters are not two but one and the same. Your pretense at humility is as transparent as my 1 1/2 year old covering her face when she plays peek-a-boo thinking I can’t see her.

      Reply
      • Dina says:

        August 18, 2015 at 9:04 pm

        Also, Chris, almah doesn’t mean definitely not a virgin, so your example of Rebecca is irrelevant. Young woman can be a virgin or not. It’s not a specific word. But virgin is a specific word in both English and Hebrew. If you use that word in either language, you specifically mean to refer to someone who has not had any sexual experience.

        Reply
      • LarryB says:

        August 18, 2015 at 9:29 pm

        He has more videos and a couple small books. They seem to be available everywhere. Funny, no one seems to like his blog. No comments though on his site, it’s obvious he is lonely.

        Reply
      • LarryB says:

        August 18, 2015 at 9:39 pm

        Dual personality?

        Reply
        • Dina says:

          August 18, 2015 at 11:39 pm

          I’m not a psychiatrist, but he clearly ought to be on meds. If he has never seen one, I hope someone helps him get the help he desperately needs. I think he needs compassion more than anything else, poor soul.

          Reply
67. ChristianPaul says:

    August 19, 2015 at 12:24 am

    Dina and Larry Peace to you!

    Thank you for all your compliments: crazy, fool, liar, not humble, not honest whatever the title! Is it not a glory for me to receive all those because I defend the honour of my father?

    Also dear Dina I have already asked you where do I accused you to be a liar? No response! Could it be that once again you accused me falsely?

    Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!

    Again thank you!

    Reply
    • LarryB says:

      August 19, 2015 at 12:43 am

      SeeP
      Déjà vu
      I was about 14, down in San Antonio TX visiting relatives and we went to the park. I was standing near a building when this long hair commy love punk walks up to me out of the blue with tears streaming down his face tells me that Jesus loves me, and if I wanted, I could beat him up if it would make me feel better, and he wouldn’t stop me. You remind me so much of him. What a phony.

      Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 19, 2015 at 1:28 am

      Christian, you said i was a former roman catholic. Slander. Why don’t you apologize? You called me a westerner. But my whole family is eastern european and you are from Canada, much more west than where i live. Why don’t you apologize? You also tried to slander me anytime you could not answer my points about the Orthodox Church. Anyone reading the comments can see that, each time i cornered you about the Orthodox Church, for the record: prayers to angels, canon of scriptures, corruption of the OT LXX, Photius and John of Damascus contrasted with Origen, Oecumenical Councils, and John Chrysostom denying several Christian Orthodox belieds and practices and Mary’s sinlesness contradicted by the Church Fathers. This list si long enough, wich makes your slanders towards me even more shamefull. Stop running 🙂

      Reply
    • Dina says:

      August 19, 2015 at 1:44 pm

      Chris, you wrote: “Also dear Dina I have already asked you where do I accused you to be a liar? No response! Could it be that once again you accused me falsely?”

      I had already answered you here; it would be nice if you bothered to read what I write:

      https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-22413

      In response to your comment here:

      https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-22404

      So not only did I not accuse you falsely this time, but when else did I accuse you falsely that you write “Could it be that once again you accused me falsely?” (my emphasis) Now you owe me a double apology.

      Reply
68. ChristianPaul says:

    August 19, 2015 at 1:17 am

    Shalom Larry this for you!

    James 4:10
    Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

    Exodus 10:3
    So Moses and Aaron came in to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: ‘How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me.

    Leviticus 26:41
    and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

    Numbers 12:3
    (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth.)

    This is for me:

    11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    By the way the more you bash me the more you confirm that you have no arguments proving that I speak the truth. For your reaction full of denigration only show what is in your heart:

    Job 18:5
    “The light of the wicked indeed goes out, And the flame of his fire does not shine.
    Job 20:5
    That the triumphing of the wicked is short, And the joy of the hypocrite is but for a moment?
    Job 27:7
    “May my enemy be like the wicked, And he who rises up against me like the unrighteous.
    Job 36:6
    He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed.
    Job 40:12
    Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place.

    Psalm 7:11
    God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day.
    Psalm 7:14
    Behold, the wicked brings forth iniquity; Yes, he conceives trouble and brings forth falsehood.
    Psalm 22:16
    For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet;
    Psalm 27:2
    When the wicked came against me To eat up my flesh, My enemies and foes, They stumbled and fell.
    Psalm 32:10
    Many sorrows shall be to the wicked; But he who trusts in the Lord, mercy shall surround him.
    Psalm 34:21
    Evil shall slay the wicked, And those who hate the righteous shall be condemned.

    Psalm 36:11
    Let not the foot of pride come against me, And let not the hand of the wicked drive me away.

    May the Truth prevail in all!

    Reply
    • LarryB says:

      August 19, 2015 at 1:29 am

      SeeP
      “By the way the more you bash me the more you confirm that you have no arguments proving that I speak the truth. For your reaction full of denigration only show what is in your heart:”
      You have noticed I wouldn’t waste my time after all. To Bad you haven’t noticed your own reactions and denigrations to everyone else you speak to.

      Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 19, 2015 at 1:33 am

      And here is for you:

      Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 19, 2015 at 8:32 am

        Peace Saul!

        Wrong translation: there is no HA in front of man nor son. In case of son a BA instead of Be would have rendered in implicit definite article. Therefore your translation is bogus.

        NKJV renders it better:

        ”Do not put your trust in princes,
        Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.”

        The definite article change again the meaning. Those small changes are intended to subtlety render void the word of God and counter the true Faith in the Son.

        Thank you for proving again how you distort words in general and own you dared to distort Holy Scriptures. (May be it was not intentional of you for not knowing basic Hebrew but please at least be more careful to check: I thought you were a high degree scholar…)

        May the truth prevail in all!

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 19, 2015 at 8:44 am

          You are really stupid, this was KJV Christian Translation.

          “May be it was not intentional of you for not knowing basic Hebrew but please at least be more careful to check: I thought you were a high degree scholar…”

          Give thanks to God you are hidden behind your keybord.

          Jubilee Bible 2000
          Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man in whom there is no salvation.

          King James 2000 Bible
          Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

          American King James Version
          Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

          American Standard Version
          Put not your trust in princes, Nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

          English Revised Version
          Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

          Webster’s Bible Translation
          Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

          Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 19, 2015 at 8:48 am

          ANd by the way, you first said there was no alma in DSS Isaiah 7:14, so don’t play the hebrew scholar, you’re just a fake christian orthodox troll from youtube.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 9:16 am

            Peace to you Saul!

            1) I never said that the DSS Isaiah 7:14 did not contain ALMAH in it. For I did not knew the DSS. I was talking about the Masoreitic text which is post-Christ a 10th century text. Also I say that the meaning of Virgin has been changed where for the rabbis Almah can never means Virgin which is not true as demonstrated by other passage like recently the Son of Salomon chap.6

            2) Basic Hebrew is not scholarly Hebrew. The translation that you refer too are all new translation which distort more the word of God. Keep running but the truth will catch you!

            You don’t need to insult to make your point. Hashem is testing you! Be respectful of everybody! You insulted me twice. I forgive you in advance!

            I pray for you for if your conversion to the actual Judaism give you this kind of respect to others than you are making the worst promotion of your religion and may be signalling to the world that it is not a better good. Humility is always a sign of truth. I am talking first to myself when I write this.

            Many blessings and may the Lord have mercy on you and may always the Truth prevail in all!
          • Sharbano says:

            August 19, 2015 at 11:06 am

            Your entire argument is predicated on the assumption that Isaiah wanted the verse to designate the woman as a “virgin”. You’ve taken this to the level of ‘mother of god’ worship. You tried to imply in Genesis 24 when a man speaks of a woman, who is a virgin, that it must mean virgin. Yet previously the text gives the word for virgin and Defines it. This cannot be any more succinct.

            Apparently Xtianity had ONLY fragments of Tanach since it relies on “fragments” of scripture to promote its case. There is MORE to Isaiah than mere fragments that YOU and Xtianity rely upon. The “fragment” you use speaks of TWO KINGS. Does Isaiah drop the point there. By no means. In the next chapter it answers this “sign”.
            “I approached the prophetess and she conceived and bore a son; and Hashem said to me: Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz [Plunder Hastens;Spoil Quickens]. For before the child knows how to say ‘my father and my mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria will be carried off before the king of Assyria… It will pass through Judea, flooding as it passes, and reaching to the neck; and its wingspread will be the full breadth of your land, O Immanuel.”

            How does Xtianity react to this revelation. By dismissing and ignoring it. It is a hermeneutic of scriptural analysis that if there is difficulty in one place the answer lies close at hand. Do you actually expect a religion to have ANY merit whatsoever when it relies on fragments of text.

            Do you think Isaiah was ignorant in his choice of words, or negligent in his writings. Here are some examples.
            23:12 – And He said, Exult no longer, O oppressed virgin daughter of Sidon
            37:22 – This is the word that the Lord has spoken about him: The virgin daughter of Zion
            47:1 – Get down and sit on the dirt, O virgin daughter of Babylonia
            62:5 – As a young man lives with a virgin

            Clearly, if Isaiah intended to have the meaning as virgin he would have used the term that was specific in meaning virgin. As with so many other examples the Xtian writers used fragments, and relying on the ignorance of the reader, thought no more of it. I daresay the church didn’t expect such scrutiny of their written word. Given this, do you really think just because YOUR translation says virgin in Shir HaShirim that makes it so. It has about as much weight as calling your religion Judaism.

            You sound like part of the messianic community, who dresses up in Jewish garb and claim it as Judaism. Judaism keeps ALL the relevant commandments and doesn’t segregate out those he agrees with. This is why Jsus was such a failure. He rebelled against the most prominent of commandments, Shabbat. He complains of the “burden” of Shabbat yet no one else seemed to complain of this “burden”. It was his rebellious nature that made it a burden. A rebellious child thinks everything is a burden.
          • Dina says:

            August 19, 2015 at 1:05 pm

            Chris, here are some lies that you wrote:

            “I never said that the DSS Isaiah 7:14 did not contain ALMAH in it.”

            You provided the link to the DSS specifically to show that it does not say almah.

            You still have not apologized for your false accusation that the rabbis changed “betulah” to “almah” because they were so terrified of the Christological implication (you wrote that if they hadn’t changed it the whole of Judaism would crumble).

            “Also I say that the meaning of Virgin has been changed where for the rabbis Almah can never means Virgin.”

            You made that up. I challenge you to find me one source where a rabbi says that almah can never mean a virgin. I already explained to you that almah means “young woman,” so she can be either a young woman who is a virgin or a young woman who is not a virgin depending on context. It seems, however, that it’s no use talking to you since you don’t listen to what we say. It’s like talking to a stone wall. You keep repeating your old arguments while completely ignoring our refutations.

            Furthermore, you have got to be the most thin-skinned human being on the planet. We have caught you in several lies, so you deserve the appellation of “liar.” But you consistently malign and slander everyone who disagrees with you, calling them liars without any evidence of their having lied, and cursing them all to hell. Aren’t you ashamed of yourself?
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 9:52 am

            “1) I never said that the DSS Isaiah 7:14 did not contain ALMAH in it. For I did not knew the DSS. ”

            Wow. What a filthy liar you are. I can’t believe my eyes. How can you lie so much? You wrote;

            “ChristianPaul says:
            August 13, 2015 at 4:51 pm
            I went see the text online. That is not apparent what is written there. Their translation is based on a present version of your Tanakh! Here is the link go see for your self.

            http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#7:14

            Double click many times to go see the Hebrew not what they translated. And I ask you can you find honestly there the word almah?”

            What a clown.

            BY the way, since you now think you are a scholar, and a good Orthodox Christian, explain me something. You wrote this;

            “ChristianPaul says:
            August 11, 2015 at 2:00 pm
            Hi Saul!

            I never prayed to angel. That is a Roman catholic practice! ”

            But Orthodox Church teaches:

            “Prayer to Your Guardian Angel
            O Angel of Christ, holy guardian and protector of my soul and body, forgive me of everything I have done to offend you every day, and protect me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. May I never offend God by my sin. Pray for me to the Lord, that He may make me worthy of the grace of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Most Blessed Theotokos” http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/OtherPrayers.html

            “PRAYERS TO THE GUARDIAN ANGEL
            O angel of God, my holy guardian, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation. Amen.” St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church http://www.stgeorgenj.com/various-prayers.html

            Now explain to me how, you who got baptised by an alexandrian monk as a baby, who communed at every ressurection day, were not aware that praying to the angels was a Christian Orthodox Practice? Do not run away from this, again. Explain to me: are you simply an ignorant, or did you lie when you said you never prayed to any angel, or do you lie when you say you are Orthodox Christian? These are the only possible answers for you. Choose wisely.

            “The translation that you refer too are all new translation which distort more the word of God. Keep running but the truth will catch you!”

            These are Christian translations bugs bunny.

            And no, i do not respect you, because you are a coward and a liar.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 2:27 pm

            Shalom to you Saul!

            You have a hot temper. Good for you! But being Eastern European I think you do not read well English for

            “1) I never said that the DSS Isaiah 7:14 did not contain ALMAH in it. For I did not knew the DSS. ”

            “ChristianPaul says:
            August 13, 2015 at 4:51 pm
            I went see the text online. THAT IS NOT APPARENT WHAT IT IS WRITTEN THERE. Their translation is based on a present version of your Tanakh! Here is the link go see for your self.
            http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#7:14

            Double click many times to go see the Hebrew not what they translated. And I ask you CAN YOU FIND HONESTLY THE WORD ALMAH?”

            I am being transparent not used to the hand writing in Isaiah… I was looking for the word ALMAH I WAS NOT DENYING anything… Note my interrogation mark and my previous affirmation in the paragraph before. (I have put it in CAPITAL LETTERS FOR YOU TO PAY ATTENTION)…

            Now you should again ask forgiveness for the false accusation against me for your tactics is obvious… Still you did not respond why the Masoreitic text differs from the DSS on many issue and not just on Isaiah 7:14… I remind you the pulling off of the glorious Name of YHWH

            It appears that you select what you want and insult others without any impunity proving once again that the scale of the BIG brother is a scale for bullying his little brothers. That is shameful!

            Also that you call me a liar meaning intentionally saying something false is to God to judge for I know in my conscience that is certainly not the case. That you perceived like this might have to do more with your heart full of anger and hate for the Christians. That is a shame also!

            Like the Roman powers and all Antichrist system you are frightening people capable of doing anything to make your point. May the Ruah Holy be my Protection against the violent man and may Her Son prevail in all for the the Glory of the Almighty Father. Amen!
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 2:58 pm

            Christian, stop running away from Saul Goodman. Why don’t you answer about the angels? little coward, why do you avoid this issue? Come on, tell me, how a good christian orthodox as yourself didn’t know the Orthodo Church teaches to pray to angels? Stop your empty rents, i’m not interested.

            “I am being transparent not used to the hand writing in Isaiah… I was looking for the word ALMAH I WAS NOT DENYING anything”

            You claim to know hebrew but you didn’t see the word Almah? What a joke. Incredible.

            “Still you did not respond why the Masoreitic text differs from the DSS on many issue and not just on Isaiah 7:14… I remind you the pulling off of the glorious Name of YHWH”

            Now, once again i’ll answer you, so pay attention and do not run away. You have to prove the DSS is the original in order to claim the Massoretic changed the name. If you can not do so, your point fails. Also, the DSS differ from the LXX, and the LXX is the OT of your Church. So for you to say the DSS is the original, it means the LXX is a corrupt OT and your Church full of Holy Ghost could not even have a non corrupt OT.

            “May the Ruah Holy be my Protection against the violent man”

            To cry, cry me a river
            Cry me a river-er
            Cry me a river
            Cry me a river-er, yea yea
        • Dina says:

          August 19, 2015 at 1:27 pm

          Chris, when it’s convenient you insist on the KJV translation; when it’s not convenient it’s the wrong translation.

          You happen to be right, in this instance, that the definite article is missing, but it makes no difference for your case.

          The Stone Edition translates it thus: “Do not rely on nobles, nor on a human being, for he holds no salvation.”

          The indefinite article means not that you should not rely on a specific human being, but that you should not rely on any human being. Jesus, being a human being, is included in this designation.

          So you don’t have a leg to stand on. It’s amazing how you manage to run away without any legs.

          Reply
        • Dina says:

          August 19, 2015 at 1:35 pm

          Chris, you quoted Matthew 5:12: “Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

          Please provide Scriptural evidence for persecution of the prophets. I would like the prophets’ names, s’il vous plait, and the chapter and verse detailing what persecution they suffered.

          You keep going on about being the poor, persecuted little child of the Lord. That is laughable. You came here of your own accord, and you stay of your own volition. You are free to leave any time you want to.

          But what is even more pathetic is that you call disagreement persecution. The charge is quite rich coming from you who castigates and damns to hell all who disagree with you. It is also
          hypocritical, considering the persecution Jews have suffered at the hands of your ancestors.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 2:35 pm

            Shalom Dina!

            Very easy question to answer:

            1) Jeremiah … I hope you know his history
            2) Eliyah … With the King Ahab and his infamous wife
            3) Noah was ridiculed by everybody except his family
            4) David was he not persecuted by King Saul

            I damn nobody to Hell. Again you are saying unfounded accusation! It is only God who judges. Also I have a question if you knew that somebody dear to you was going to Hell by God’s given word what would you do?

            Many blessings and may the truth prevail in all!
            …
          • Dina says:

            August 19, 2015 at 4:55 pm

            Chris, I should have been more clear. The charge was that the Jewish people persecuted the prophets. In Noah’s time, the Jewish people did not yet exist. The act of individual wicked people, like Jezebel, is not the act of the entire Jewish people. The act of a misguided king, Saul, is not the act of the Jewish people (not to mention that King David was not numbered among the prophets).

            In the case of Jeremiah, there was a faction that was loyal to him and a faction that was not. One faction is not the whole Jewish people.

            Please provide a list of names of prophets who were persecuted by the Jewish people as a whole and please cite chapter and verse. Please cite chapter and verse.

            Please cite chapter and verse.

            I repeat myself because I think you are hard of hearing.

            You keep not hearing me.

            God help you.
    • Sharbano says:

      August 19, 2015 at 7:12 am

      “This is for me:

      11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

      Get real now. You are not doing this for His sake whatsoever, but for your Own sake. This is clearly evident when a person uses David’s words of travail as his own. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard the word “persecution” used by Xtians. It is the typical response of the arrogant when left with no rebuttal. The ONLY reason you say there are no arguments against is because you do not READ them, but ignore them. Therefore it is NO confirmation whatsoever. You have the assumption your proof is according to that repetition even though it doesn’t apply as intended.

      Also, you act as if you do not engage in hostility but your list of verses pointing to the “wicked” PROVES without a shadow of a doubt that you ARE engaging in attacking your opponents. You engage in this attack because you are unable to prove YOUR points. On what grounds do you call your opponents wicked. Because they dispute your words. This is a childish response. You have used this tactic many times when repetition doesn’t accomplish the task. You should realize repetition is NOT a rebuttal. Using select verses to denigrate an opponent is a sign of frustration when one doesn’t agree. It is a method of attempting to coerce an opinion on others. This is common among Xtians and has been from the beginning, including Jsus.

      They, and you, assume to speak for G-d when G-d has His own voice and His words are Torah and cannot be abrogated or modified. We look at the ENTIRE bible for answers and any doctrine, new or otherwise, must agree with the entire text. If there is a contradiction that cannot be answered then it cannot have validity. Whether Xtianity wants to accept it or not the doctrines of Xtianity are laden with contradictions according to Tanach. We can conclude therefore, G-d allowed Xtianity to flourish for the purpose of testing us to see whether or not we follow G-d or idolatry.

      Reply
69. ChristianPaul says:

    August 19, 2015 at 2:58 pm

    Peace to you Saul!

    What is with you with your fixation on angels? I DO NOT PRAY TO ANGELS! Do you see it now?

    I am on the same wave length of Saint John Chrysostom a trust worthy father of the Church on this..

    If some brothers and sisters do it out of influence from ancient times that is their liberty. Also the prayer that you presented is not a worship but a demand of prayer and protection which has its roots in the Tanakh with the story of Tobias. But may be you do not know the story.

    This debate is one of your fancy to do I don’t know what… May be try to corner me or may be try to show your colleagues that you know Orthodoxy… Do not be deceived you certainly do not know the important things, for the mysteries of the Church are reserved for the humble ones the little of the LORD, And like we all see your are excommunicated by yourself from the Holy Church proving my point.

    May the Truth prevail in all!

    Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 19, 2015 at 3:16 pm

      “What is with you with your fixation on angels? I DO NOT PRAY TO ANGELS! Do you see it now?

      I am on the same wave length of Saint John Chrysostom a trust worthy father of the Church on this..

      If some brothers and sisters do it out of influence from ancient times that is their liberty. ”

      Lol. You’re such an ignorant. I’m sure that you know, that in the Orthodox Church, the liturgy is dogmatic. And the prayers to the angels are part of the Liturgy of the Orthodox Church;

      “In both the Greek and Slavonic Euchologion, in the canon for the departure of the soul by St. Andrew , we find in Ode 7: “All holy angels of the Almighty God, have mercy upon me and save me from all the evil toll-houses.”” http://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses#Liturgical_Evidence

      So it is not some brothers and sisters, it is the Liturgy of your Church.

      “Also the prayer that you presented is not a worship but a demand of prayer and protection which has its roots in the Tanakh with the story of Tobias. But may be you do not know the story.”

      What a foolish smokescreen, this is prayer to an angel. The subject has never been worship or not worship, but prayer or not prayer to angels. And Tobias is an apocrypha that was rejected by “Saint” Cyrill of Jerusalem, Melito of Sardis, “Saint” Athanasius of Alexandria, “Saint” Epiphanus of Salamis, “Saint” Gregory of Nazianzen, Origen, Rufinus, and “Saint” Jerome.

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 19, 2015 at 5:03 pm

        Poor Saul Shalom!

        You seem so confused! No wonder you got kick out of the Holy Church by yourself! You confused the old Roman dogmatic imperatives versus the Orthodox Faith which is centered on the Messiah and most of all on the Holy Trinity. The divine Liturgy ask help from God to send down his angels to protect us like in the numerous passage of the Tanakh. No differences! We do not worship angels we ask for their help: those who do so are ok to do so and those who do not are ok also.

        Also when you ask your rabbi or your brother to pray for you… does it mean that you worship them. You just think that he can touch God for you and have your prayer answered. What is wrong with that? O yes humility we need to ask other to pray for us. That is not easy to ask!

        May the Truth prevail in all!

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 19, 2015 at 5:13 pm

          Hahaha what a liar. You said you never pray to angels, but there are prayers adressed to angels in your Liturgy. Stop running away please.

          “The divine Liturgy ask help from God to send down his angels ”

          Lol shameful lie:

          “In both the Greek and Slavonic Euchologion, in the canon for the departure of the soul by St. Andrew , we find in Ode 7: “All holy angels of the Almighty God, have mercy upon me and save me from all the evil toll-houses.”” http://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses#Liturgical_Evidence

          Prayer is adressed to the angels, not to God. You really have no shame. Incredible.

          “Also when you ask your rabbi or your brother to pray for you… does it mean that you worship them. ”

          What a coward trying to change the subject from prayers to angels to worship thing. You claimed you NEVER prayed to angels and it was a RC practice, yet it is part of your Liturgy. STOP RUNNING!

          Reply
          • Concerned Reader says:

            August 19, 2015 at 5:43 pm

            Saul, for the sake of clarity, there is a big debate within the Orthodox Churches about the concept of ” Aerial toll-houses,” with many Orthodox who outright reject the notion as Gnosticism and heresy (especially in light of the prayer to angels that you mention) in line with Paul’s warning in Collossians 2:18.

            For our Christian readers. The issue of asking saints and angels for assistance can often border on idolatrous veneration, so its not allowed really. This is why Deuteronomy 4 warns Israel not to bow to “the whole host of heaven.” If you worship or entreat G-d’s “entourage” for assistance, you can be unwittingly violating Deuteronomy 4, as the doctrine of the Aerial Toll House clealry does.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 6:06 pm

            Concerned Reader, those denying the toll houses must deny the liturgy. And the liturgy is dogmatic. But anyway, my point was not on the toll houses, but the prayers to the angels. And the prayers to the angels are not directly related to the toll houses, there are independant prayers to angels, such as to the guardian angels.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 6:17 pm

            “He is also obliged to be familiar with the liturgical experience and the life of the Church and its Canonic structure, because these elements also express the dogmatic faith of the Church. ” http://www.oodegr.co/english/dogmatiki1/A1.htm Professor Metropolitan of Pergamus and Chairman of the Athens Academy I. Zizioulas
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 6:48 pm

            Yisroel could it be that you are Saul Goodman?

            1)Because you never take him down when he insults!
            2)A perfect cover for you to let go your heart against me

            Proof number 1:

            “Saul Goodman says:
            August 19, 2015 at 2:58 pm

            Christian, stop running away from Saul Goodman. Why don’t you answer about the angels? ”

            Why Saul Goodman would talk about himself with a distance??

            Proof number 2 :

            He only quotes the fathers of the Church or links not able to himself articulate anything from Orthodoxy

            Proof number 3 :

            The Monday services which normally the monks perform not secular Orthodox nor parish priests… this only a real Orthodox would know. Actually that is the clear proof that this is a liar and not a real person a character in disguise……

            Proof number 4 :

            The clear proof: Saul Said: “Hahaha don’t worry Christian, i have a comment waiting moderation that will blow you away and send you back where you come from about this. Quotes from Church Fathers about the corruption of your New Testament. When the comment will be on, you will run away faster than ever.”

            and just after Yisroel said:

            “yourphariseefriend says:
            August 16, 2015 at 11:52 pm

            Saul I tried to repost the comment – I am not sure how it came out – but Christian won’t run – you presented truth and truth doesn’t seem to talk to him – I might have to block him again – but I hesitate because he does serve as an example”

            Now Yisroel you think I am stupid and do not see your game here… Say the truth and reveal yourself… You should be a shame! Prove me wrong on this one!

            May the truth always prevails!
          • Dina says:

            August 19, 2015 at 8:30 pm

            Très triste, cher Chris.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 7:08 pm

            Now i think Dina is right, this guy has psychatric issues. I would love to be Rav Blumenthal but this would be too easy to gain knowledge by becoming him, Hashem prefers us to study the hard way, as said the Vilna Gaon.

            And i love how he tries to hide his ignorance of the Church Fathers and of the Orthodox Church teachings.
          • LarryB says:

            August 20, 2015 at 5:15 am

            Saul
            “ChristianPaul says:
            August 19, 2015 at 6:48 pm
            Yisroel could it be that you are Saul Goodman?”
            It would make more sense if he pretended to be Christian Paul, since at this point he has zero credibility left. The only place I have seen this level of insanity in a conversation in in political discussions. This has become difficult to even read.
          • LarryB says:

            August 20, 2015 at 5:21 am

            That level of insanity would be on Christians Paul part, deny, misdirect, accuse, change the subject,
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 20, 2015 at 5:27 am

            @Larry

            Yes, this is nonsense. I have sent to Rav Blumenthal pictures of my baptism, of my passport, and very personnal information about my family. As such he has my real name , i’m not anonymous. But all of this is just a way for him to run away, as usual. Lost case.
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 19, 2015 at 5:15 pm

          ” those who do so are ok to do so and those who do not are ok also.”

          Totaly false, you can not deny the Liturgy of your Church. Liturgy is dogmatic!!!! What an ignorant! Amazing.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 5:43 pm

            Poor Saul Shalom!

            Again you read with anger and with vitriol in your heart which fogs your mind. I have pity on you poor soul-Saul. Like king Saul you do not listen well!!

            Let me clarify it for you:

            Source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Euchologion

            “Euchologion

            The Greek word ευχολόγιον literally means “book of prayers.” The Slavonic word Trebnik literally means “book of needs.” This type of service book varies widely in contents and arrangements. The most comprehensive edition is the Ευχολόγιον το Μέγα or Great Euchologion contains the prayers of the priest, deacon, and reader for Vespers, Orthros, and the Divine Liturgy; the six remaining sacraments, and other services of blessings (which in the west are often referred to as sacramentals).

            The Slavonic Great Book of Needs consists of two parts:

            The sacraments and other sacred rites, which accompany a man from birth and counsels him at his departure into eternity.
            Short prayers for various needs. There is also a calendar and the “Alphabetic Classification of Names,” the latter being a list of Christian names.

            There are also a variety of more concise editions, that contain only the most commonly done of these services. These texts are often called the Small Euchologion (mikron euchologion), and usually contains the forms for the mysteries (sacraments) other than the Eucharist and ordination, and other common services.

            The Small Book of Needs is excerpted from the Great Book of Needs for the purpose of convenience, in order to have a small book for the performance of needs, especially those needs which must be served outside the temple.

            There is also a Supplemental Book of Needs in Slavonic, which contains within services such as the orders for the consecration of a temple and the consecration of things pertaining to the temple, such as the church utensils, vestments, icons, and so forth. This Supplemental Book of Needs is often combined into one book with the Small Book of Needs.

            What distinguishes the services found in the Euchologion is that they are generally services that are not appointed to be done at any given time according to the Church calendar, but are done as the need arises (e.g., funerals, weddings, baptisms, the consecration of a new church, etc.). Some services are associated with the liturgical calendar, however, such as the blessing of candles on the Feast of the Presentation, the blessing of Palms on Palm Sunday, etc.

            The Ieresky Molitvoslov contains some services that are considered Trebnik services, however, this is more of a devotional book for priests than a service book for public services.

            In English, there are various editions of the Small Euchologion, but only one (4 volume) edition of the entire Euchologion, published by St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press under the title The Great Book of Needs. This collection of the Trebnik services attempts to organize these services in a more logical sequence than the Slavonic Trebnik has been historically published in.

            Volume One contains the services associated with the 7 sacraments.

            Volume Two contains services for the sanctification of Ecclesiastical items, icons, crosses, etc; and services associated with the liturgical year.

            Volume Three contains prayers for various needs, general blessings, and services connected with death, funerals, burials, and commemorations of the departed.

            Volume Four contains Moliebens, services of supplication, and other services of blessing.

            Br. Isaac Lambertsen has also done a translation of the entire Slavonic Trebnik, as well as services that are unique to the Greek Euchologion, but due to the publication of the Book of Needs by St. Tikhon, the publication of his translation has been put on hold indefinitely. ”

            Now if you need more counsel may be a good old Orthodox priest will help you but you must come in humility and a contrite heart not with your insults and your vain glory.

            May the Lord have mercy upon you! I am really worry for you: how the devastation of Pride is consuming you… Frightening!
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 5:59 pm

            Lol where is the answer? What has this to do with the issue? Incredible. But i’ll nail this point once and for all:

            St. Nicholai Velimirovic, Bishop of Zica:

            “Our Orthodox Church has dedicated Monday to the holy angels. Therefore, every Monday in the church services we are reminded of the holy angels with praise and prayer: “Holy Archangels and Angels, pray to God for us.”

            n this sense also we call the angels our elder brethren, honoring them and praying to them from this valley of tears:

            “O Holy Archangels and Angels,
            Pray to God for us sinners.!”
            Source: The Lord’s Prayer A Devout Interpretation & Three Lessons of the Orthodox Church by St. Nicholai Velimirovic, St. Paisius Orthodox Monastery, Safford, AZ. 2001, pp. 71-88. http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/angels.htm

            Game over poor Christian. Saint Nicholai Velimirovic puts an end to your claims. The fact that you do not know this is very telling. Nicholai Velimirovic is one of the most important saints of the last centuy, with St John of Shangai or St Justin Popovic and few others. Ignorance test: 10/10.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 6:02 pm

            I’d like everyone to notice: St Nicolai Velimirovic writes that every monday there are prayers adressed to the angels in the service. So either Christian Paul has never gone to the Church on Monday, or he lied, or he is.. very ignorant.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 6:26 pm

            Poor Saul Shalom!

            You make really a fool of yourself and prove that you do not know the Holy Church from the inside. I doubt now that you are even once Orthodox. This is a lie a feel it. Something is very fishy with you… Hmm I will get it do not worry!

            Now no I never go the Monday services for the Monday services are only done in monasteries who follows everything. Secular parishes held by married priest do the major services not the monastic ones (here all days of the week).

            Therefore I just cornered you proving that you were never Orthodox and are really a poor lunatic (from Monday … and the Moon)…

            Also I am no scholar but a poor Orthodox person from Israelite ancestry.

            May God have mercy with your lies and your insults… You said that you abhor liars but I feel that Pride has completely taken you in the other side… Frightening! Major Prelest!
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 7:01 pm

            Christian Paul, now this will be my last reply to your nonsense. In light of what you just wrote, i will challenge you again.

            “I doubt now that you are even once Orthodox. This is a lie a feel it. Something is very fishy with you… Hmm I will get it do not worry!…

            Therefore I just cornered you proving that you were never Orthodox and are really a poor lunatic (from Monday … and the Moon)…”

            I challenge you to send your baptism certificate to Rav Blumenthal, and i send him mine. THis is an easy clear and direct way to know if you just made a false accusation. Do you accept the challenge? Since you just tried to slander me, you must accept. Take up on the challenge, stop hidding behind your keyboard.

            “Now no I never go the Monday services for the Monday services are only done in monasteries who follows everything. ”

            You never went to a monday Service? So you never participated to the Holy Week didn’t you? Here it is:

            “(The service is MATINS3 [Morning Prayers] of Great Monday and is sung by anticipation on Palm Sunday evening.)

            Monday of Holy Week (sung by anticipation, now on Palm Sunday Evening) commemorates the blessed and noble Joseph and the fig tree which was cursed and withered by the Lord. ” http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8432#ref3

            “Festal (Holiday) Services
            Mondays — Fridays:

            (Eve of the Feast) Vespers – 6:30pm

            (Day of the Feast) Hours – 9:45am; Divine Liturgy – 10:00am …

            Lenten Services
            Monday: Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete – 6:30pm…” http://saintvladimir.org/service_schedule.html

            “June 2015
            Monday 1st
            Monday of the Holy Spirit
            Divine Liturgy: 10:00 am” http://www.annunciationcleveland.net/events-schedule/divine-liturgy-schedule-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%AC-%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8C%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%B1

            Now, this is my last reply until you accept my challenge. You claim i never were Orthodox Christian? Prove it by taking upon my challenge to you. And may God reveals the truth about it. If you do not accept, you’re just an internet coward.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 7:15 pm

            As a final point, i can even send to Rav Blumenthal the official calendar of the Church i used to go, with a lot of offices on Monday, and it is no monastery at all.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 20, 2015 at 12:02 am

            Stop the lie Yisroel!

            Again you quote and quote writing nothing from your heart proving that you know nothing of Orthodoxy. For one thing you should know that a renown monk told me once:

            ”My son arrives a point when you grow in the Word and in our Beautiful Religion that you must say what is in your heart to test if you have eaten properly at the Holy Altar…”

            Obviously you do not know you just quote and quote like a parakeet…

            Also concerning my Baptism certificate your challenge is a diversion, we know that you have none being a rabbi and you would get mine for a purpose… 🙂 Now let us meet in public to debate. No internet for you to check just what is in our hearts: face to face and why not in Yerushalaim or Moscow or Paris or New York!

            We know when someone is Orthodox by how you pray and know by experience the divine liturgy not confounding it with the books of prayers and not knowing what is mandatory and what is not… What a phony you are… now we have found the new clown in town… Yisroel!

            Roman catholics prostitute had their clown priest now here we have a clown rabbi!

            Very entertaining but sad in a sense to use those kind of amateur tactics. You forget that I have family in Israel and that I have Jewish roots. Real Jews don’t get fool by false jews!!

            Hope that you understand what I mean here! Do not play game with me. Eliyah came and you stop his work. I came in peace and you want war.

            Shalom and may the truth always prevail!

            P.S.: Tbi nie gavarich pa-russiki. Chto tbi xotchech? Psako le noche! Mir!
          • Dina says:

            August 20, 2015 at 9:16 am

            This insanity is becoming painful to read. Chris needs help, not an argument. Do the people in his life know this? Is anyone taking care of him? One can’t help worrying.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 20, 2015 at 3:22 am

            I was sure you would not take upon the challenge lol, i knew you would not have the balls to accept.

            Once again you have not been able to answer only one point(another point to add you your already long list of points you didn’t answer).

            But there is a very simple way to end your nonsense. There is a nice programm called Paltalk. On paltalk we can talk live with microphone and webcam. No way to espace for you. Let’s talk on Paltalk. I challenge you to come on paltalk. Here is the link to this program, http://fr.paltalk.com/ We can debate directly in french. My nickname there is “SaulGoodman” all attached, add me and we’ill debate.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 20, 2015 at 3:57 am

            “The Akathist to St. Michael the Archangel

            0 most wonderful Michael, leader of the heavenly hosts, ask for us a clear understanding….

            Kontakion

            O chief ruler of the angels, deliver us who keep your radiant feast with joy from the storm of temptations and troubles, …

            Kontakion

            0 chief captain of God, be for us who wish to be saved, a firm helper, to deliver and preserve us from distress and mishap, and even more so from our own evil habits and sins ….” http://cs-people.bu.edu/butta1/akathistarchangelmichael.htm

            But there is no prayer to angels in the Orthodox Church? It’s just what some do, but not all? Lol. Even finnish christian orthodox churches have it http://www.ortodoksi.net/liturgiset_tekstit/akatistohymnit/akatistos_arkkienkeli_Mikaelille.htm

            Only Christian Paul is not aware of prayers to the angels.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 20, 2015 at 8:16 am

            Yisroel-alias Saul you said:
            ”Saul Goodman says:
            August 20, 2015 at 5:27 am
            @Larry
            Yes, this is nonsense. I have sent to Rav Blumenthal pictures of my baptism, of my passport, and very personnal information about my family. As such he has my real name , i’m not anonymous. But all of this is just a way for him to run away, as usual.”

            Why would you send pictures of your supposed baptism and passport if you were not a fraud? Why do you need that kind of language. Only false characters would need to be compelled to do so.

            Also I left you in an Eastern European language this:

            ”P.S.: Tbi nie gavarich pa-russiki. Chto tbi xotchech? Psako le noche! Mir!”

            You did not respond to it. That again proves that you are a fraud! You claimed that you lived in a Eastern Europe country… Big lie!

            P.S.: The use of quotes and quotes only show that you a good google searcher and proves that you know nothing about the Orthodox Church.

            May the truth prevail in all!

            P.S: only poor gullible people will believe your fraud…
          • yourphariseefriend says:

            August 20, 2015 at 9:13 am

            Christian This is interesting – in your book if someone provides evidence to his claims then he must be a fraud – but if someone such as yourself or Jesus makes claims without evidence or should I say against all evidence – then he must be telling the truth? Do you know what the word “truth” means?
          • eric krakofsky says:

            August 20, 2015 at 4:26 pm

            Christian Paul do I get it right? Tbi nie gavarich pa-russiki. Chto tbi xotchech? Psako le noche! Mir!” You do not speak russian. What do you want? ( sound like polish) . something something ….peace. No clue what the last one is. I had Russion 20 years ago. Just playing around.
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 20, 2015 at 8:24 am

            Christian, you are so stupid that you believe there is only one language in Eastern Europe lol. Hahahaha. Stop making excuses, come on paltalk if you are a man. You play the confident man, come prove it on paltalk 🙂
          • LarryB says:

            August 20, 2015 at 8:47 am

            SG
            I never knew this about the Orthodox Church. That is so bizarre! It kind of explains the fanataism we are seeing here.
    • Dina says:

      August 19, 2015 at 4:59 pm

      Chris, you wrote: “I am on the same wave length of Saint John Chrysostom a trust worthy father of the Church on this.”

      Are you on the same wavelength of these words of his?

      “The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition.”…”I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.”

      You didn’t answer me the last time I posed this question. Do you dare stand by his words? And if not, how can you call him trustworthy?

      Reply
      • ChristianPaul says:

        August 19, 2015 at 5:12 pm

        Shalom Dina!

        I do not think that Saint John wrote this. This could be false propaganda! Where is the proof of that? I am skeptical!

        For my part how can I hate my family origin? How can I hate my Jewish Messiah and my brothers the Apostles who were Jewish?

        Many blessings and may the Lord face shine upon you!

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 19, 2015 at 5:30 pm

          Christian Paul. St John was not the only Church father to write these kind of vitriolic words. There is an entire genre of Church literature called “against the Jews.” St. Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho has the same kind of invective in it. Also, the Orthodox recognize the validity of all of Chrysostom’s homilies against the Jews wherein the above hate speech is written.

          Reply
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 19, 2015 at 6:09 pm

            Hi Con Peace to you!

            What is the difference between Saint John Chrysostom hate speech and Poor Saul hate speech against a Christian… Both are hate speech… one is correct because he is pro-Jewish and the other is correct because he is pro-Christian… NO!

            Saul and John Chrysostom will get along pretty fine may be or they will hate each other…

            I do not subscribe to any hate speech whatever the provenance. I love all my brothers and even idol worshiper not that I agree with them but I want them to know the true God who loves all his children.

            But I never in this blog found any brotherly love only pride and insult and no peace to you like in the Abrahamic manner. Obviously for Westerner it is not a common practice but in the Middles East to wish you peace is the minimum of hospitality to your neighbor.

            You are here the only one who do not insult nobody and respect your neighbor. I do not agree with you but I respect you immensely. If Jews were like you I think they may be would have a case, for preaching by the example is the most powerful way to reach to people.

            Thank you and may the Lord shine his face upon you, that the truth may always be in your heart, that you become a true worshiper of the One God!
          • Dina says:

            August 19, 2015 at 8:27 pm

            Chris, you wrote: “What is the difference between Saint John Chrysostom hate speech and Poor Saul hate speech against a Christian… Both are hate speech etc.”

            Just a short while ago you were saying that you didn’t believe that John Chrysostom wrote those things because he is a holy saint who is completely trustworthy and so you believe everything he says; therefore, it must be false propaganda. Now you essentially admit that he is guilty of hate speech.

            Do you still think he is a holy and trustworthy person? Does it not disturb you that your venerated Church Fathers engaged in the vilest of hate speech?

            What do you have to say for yourself?

            Why is it that I, who am not a Christian, know more about the hateful writings of the Church Fathers than you, who actually venerates them? Don’t you think you ought to get to know better the objects of your great respect before giving them your great respect?
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 6:18 pm

            Cry me a river, cry, cry, cry me a river.
          • ChristianPaul says:

            August 20, 2015 at 12:18 am

            Shalom Dina!

            Saint John Chrysostom was mad that the Jews rejected the Messiah. And obviously he has a temper. Concerning your rabbi-alias Saul we see how he hates Christian and how he does a major disfavor for our country Israel. He is like working for the enemy when we know that Israel needs trustworthy allies. I find him as an enemy of the state. But you venerate this so-called rabbi who cuts everybody who goes against his sick mind and his false personas. WOW! What is the difference between extremist whatever the camp… They are just lunatic who make the great People forgo the real Judaism!

            Therefore obviously I do not subscribe to John C. but he wrote great things on other matters that proved that he was a great doctor for his flock like some of your rabbis that are great sage but who were great anti-Christ… Again what is the difference, two scales to judge dear Dina… unjust to say the least!

            Many blessings and may the Truth prevail in all!
          • Dina says:

            August 20, 2015 at 9:21 am

            I’ll let the audience be the judge of that , cher Chris.

            First you say you venerate your saint John, then you say you don’t subscribe to him. Nevertheless, you offer a defense of his vile words. Defending the indefensible. It’s obviously pointless to talk to you to.

            Every time we show you to be wrong, as in the almah thing, you pretend that that had never been your argument to begin with. It’s impossible to have an honest debate under such circumstances.
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 19, 2015 at 5:30 pm

          Ignorant bugs bunny:

          “What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews … But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. ..Paul said of the Jews: “Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision”. Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs?… For there is no difference between the theater and the synagogue… Many, I know, respect the Jews and think that their present way of life is a venerable one. This is why I hasten to uproot and tear out this deadly opinion. I said that the synagogue is no better than a theater …No Jew adores God! .. who should not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a dwelling of demons? God is not worshipped there. Heaven forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry. … This is the reason above all others why I hate the synagogue and abhor it…. Let no man venerate the synagogue because of the holy books; let him hate and avoid it …Even if there is no idol there, still demons do inhabit the place… Does not greater harm come from this place since the Jews themselves are demons? … Certainly it is the time for me to show that demons dwell in the synagogue, not only in the place itself but also in the souls of the Jews…” http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chrysostom_adversus_judaeos_01_homily1.htm

          And i thought you were such a scholar. But you don’t even know what Chrysostom taught. 🙂

          Reply
        • Dina says:

          August 19, 2015 at 5:31 pm

          Chris, you are truly every bit the ignoramus Saul has accused you of being. You do not know the writings of your own beloved “Saint” John? Perhaps you should read his Eight Homilies Against the Jews, known as “Adversus Judaeos.”

          And then after you read it I dare you to defend this vile man.

          It’s time to face the facts, monsieur.

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 19, 2015 at 5:45 pm

            Yes Dina, it is obvious he has no idea about the teachings and practices of the Orthodox Church. He has never studied it, that’s for sure, and i’m not even sure he ever participated to the Liturgy. Or he participated in it in a foreign language that he does not understand(this often happens since most Orthodox Churches in the west are offsprings of the Eastern European Diaspora). He seems to have mainly a wikipedia and youtube knowledge of the Orthodox Church. How can someone who is Orthodox Christian since childhood not know that there are prayers adressed to angels in the Liturgy? There are only 3 possible answers: 1) he is not orthodox christian and lied about it, 2) he lied when he said he never prayed to angels and is only a roman catholic practice, or 3) he is very very ignorant.

            It is a bit like if you Dina wouldn’t know the Shema is part of Judaism.
70. Jim says:

    August 21, 2015 at 10:56 am

    C. Paul,

    In regard to some of your posts regarding the word “almah”:

    1. I reiterate that you already admitted that almah does not mean “virgin” when you said that the rabbis changed the word in Isaiah 7:14 to “almah” because the virgin birth was too powerful a proof to resist. Arguing now that almah does mean “virgin” betrays intellectual dishonesty. It is obvious that you have a conclusion and now attempt to portray the facts in such a way as to lead to the conclusion you desire.

    2. You make a serious logical error when asking if Rebekah was a virgin to prove that almah means “virgin”. If you wanted to say that the word “niece” meant “virgin” you would bring the same proof. An object can be referred to according to different qualities they possess. When one quality is brought out, the fact that the object has another quality does not mean that the two qualities are synonymous or even imply one another.

    3. I showed how the NKJV translator’s were incompetent. Your rebuttal to me was that I should not malign them. I did not malign them. You also showed how they translated “alamot” as “virgins” in another place. That does not establish their competence. Once again, you select sources only to agree with your conclusion. This is intellectually dishonest. Note that I showed why their translation of Proverbs 30:19 cannot be correct. You did not show how my reason is wrong, only that the same people who mistranslated one verse mistranslated another.

    4. Your employment of Job is also intellectually dishonest. Sharbano and I both have mentioned that the laws regarding virgins within Torah all use the word “betulah”. So, you try to muddy the waters by finding a place that seems less clear. But you did not pay attention to what Job was saying, or you would know why he used the word “betulah” and why he is talking about looking at virgins. His situation is not like Eliezer’s. Job is looking purposefully away from women he believes to be virgins, because he is being extra-careful. It would be wrong to long after married women, but he will not look after women whom he believes to be virgins. He is being extra-stringent. It is essential to the context that the word he uses means “virgin.”

    It is obvious that you do not think about the verses to find out what they mean. You read them to find out what you can make them mean. But this is not the way to approach Torah learning or learning in general. You do not read Torah to know what God says, but how you can fit what the Church says into it. And you do not acknowledge your errors; you invent new arguments and new accusations. This is intellectually dishonest.

    Jim

    P.S. I await the retraction of your false claim that Tanach refers to all non-Jews as “dogs”.

    Reply
    • Concerned Reader says:

      August 21, 2015 at 4:52 pm

      The only person to call gentiles dogs is Jesus himself.

      Reply
71. Yehuda Yisrael says:

    August 23, 2015 at 11:30 pm

    Saul Goodman, I used to frequent Paltalk a couple years ago. Did you ever run across a fellow by the name of “TheSeventhBeggar”? Him and this other guy with the nic “RavZombie” were frequent admins in one of the rooms I used to go into called “The Great Debate of Who is jesus” or something close to that. They were very interesting people, as “TheSeventhBeggar” claimed to be an “Orthodox” Jew who has a Ph.D. in something rather to do with Jewish studies or perhaps language…I’m not certain…But he was highly critical of counter-missionaries in a weird way, despite the fact that he claimed to be “Orthodox.” He often accused people like Rabbi Tovia Singer and others of having a “Karaite approach” to scripture. RavZombie was a little more tame, but he also seemed to be critical of counter-missionaries as well. It was a weird dynamic. I originally went on to Paltalk after a messianic guy named Nakdimon challenged me to debate with him on there when I was commenting on a video that he made as a rebuttal to Rabbi Eli Cohen’s interpretation of Isaiah 53. I don’t go on Paltalk anymore, but I learned a lot about christian theology by listening to people ramble on about it in the rooms. I have never been a christian myself. (I was born Jewish and was raised Jewish by two Jewish parents.) But Paltalk was an interesting way to learn about how christians irrationally come to the conclusions that they do about jesus and how they try to force their interpretations about him onto the Tanach.

    Shalom

    Reply
    • Saul Goodman says:

      August 24, 2015 at 5:01 am

      Shalom Yehuda, no, i have never come across those people, i’ve almost never been in this room.

      Is it you who has a video rebbutal to Michael Brown?

      Missionaries have a speciality in fake personnal history: former muslim terrorist, former Yeshiva student, former Orthodox this or that. I think an interesting study would be: what % of claimed converts from this or that are actually true converts, and what is their real history. The difference between the converts to Judaism from Christianity, and the converts from Christianity to Judaism would be telling.

      By the way, CP E Lion didn’t show up on paltalk to prove me wrong on the Orthodox Church. I would have recorded it, too bad.

      Reply
      • Saul Goodman says:

        August 24, 2015 at 5:03 am

        “The difference between the converts to Judaism from Christianity, and the converts from Christianity to Judaism would be telling.”

        From Judaism to Christianity and from Christianity to Judaism.

        Reply
        • Concerned Reader says:

          August 24, 2015 at 4:31 pm

          Christian converts usually report some life change that motivates their decision, and Christian theology usually comes into the mix later. Christianity is also a default position for many people in many countries from a cultural standpoint. They are already predisposed culturally to accept its premises.

          Western Converts (from Christianity to Judaism) from what I’ve actually seen, actually start to confront the reality that Jesus and his movement was actually initially Torah observant. Studying Christian history and rig ins, Judaism becomes a default position upon investigation.

          Reply
          • Saul Goodman says:

            August 24, 2015 at 4:42 pm

            You wrote my biography, i want some royalties please! haha
      • Yehuda Yisrael says:

        August 24, 2015 at 3:08 pm

        Yeah I made the video rebuttal to Dr. Michael Brown. He came to Ohio State a couple years ago when I was there, and I asked him a few questions in the Q and A part of his presentation. This was the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61rvvdG1Yh4 I’ve also called into his radio show, “Line of Fire” on a few occasions as well.

        For the record, Dr. Brown has blocked me from his Facebook pages and has blocked me from commenting on his blogs, including the Line of Fire comments section on his website. The guy really doesn’t have any rebuttal to what I present to him, so he silences me…It’s really that simple…

        Shalom

        Reply
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 24, 2015 at 4:49 pm

          No, i can’t believe a born again would do that, the HS must have blocked you.
          Seiously i’m not surprised. Since the disputatio of old, it’s always been the same tactic. Don’t know if you have seen the short movie about the Disputatio of Barcelona where Ramban wins over “brother” Pablo?

          Reply
          • Yehuda Yisrael says:

            August 24, 2015 at 10:38 pm

            If its the one where Christopher Lee plays King James of Aragon, then yeah I saw that. Quite enjoyable!
        • Saul Goodman says:

          August 24, 2015 at 4:52 pm

          And i enjoyed this video. I was aleady convinced of Judaism’s truth when i watched it, but it really edified me and i learnt a lot! Thank you!

          Reply
72. Concerned Reader says:

    August 24, 2015 at 8:55 pm

    The disputation was a great movie short to see. Says it all quite well.

    Reply
73. Concerned Reader says:

    August 25, 2015 at 12:12 am

    Couldn’t help but see Saruman and general Zod when watching that. Also, the queen reminds me of Faye Dunaway in Mommy dearest for some reason. Lol

    Reply
74. Jim says:

    August 26, 2015 at 1:45 pm

    In response to this comment and others like it: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-22136

    A Conversation:

    Stan: Great news, Albert, I have made a mathematical discovery the likes of which the world has yet to know!

    Albert: Ah, that sounds very exciting. Please share with me this good news.

    Stan: It turns out that 2 and 2, when added together, make 5.

    Albert: Excuse me, Stan, but I think you are confused. 2 and 2 are 4.

    Stan: I am sorry, but you are deceived. This was a lie by the enemies of mathematics long ago, intended to confuse an unwary populace. But last night, I had a message from the Great Mathematician. He told me that 2 and 2 are 5.

    Albert: I cannot speak to your vision. But surely you can see that this is impossible. An investigation of the facts will quickly disprove your proposition. You should know that no two even addends will yield an odd number. But, of course, we have an easier test than that. Here are two fingers on this hand and two on this hand. Count them and tell me, how many are there? Four, correct?

    Stan: Look at you, twisting things to fit your own preconceived notions. Disgusting! The Great Mathematician warned me about people like you. You are so arrogant! You believe in the infallibility of your own reason. But you will not fool me. I have had a vision. I can feel the truth of 2+2=5. Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. But you are blinded by your love of yourself rather than truth.

    Albert: My dear Stan, this is absurd. If I am incorrect (and I do not see how I can be) why do you not show me?

    Stan: You would not believe me even if I did show you. But I know what is true, because I can feel it deep in my heart and bones. I can only hope that one day you perceive reality the way I do, that you will have the experiences I have so that you will know the truth and be freed from your mathematical blindness.

    Albert: May that day never come.

    Reply
    • Dina says:

      August 26, 2015 at 2:52 pm

      Spot on, Jim.

      Sincerely,
      Member, MAS

      Reply
      • Jim says:

        August 26, 2015 at 6:39 pm

        Dina,

        I had forgotten about the MAS. I am delighted you have reminded me–very funny!

        Jim

        Reply
    • Sharbano says:

      August 26, 2015 at 7:09 pm

      There is one example which is that I have used in comparison. It takes a step further than your example. It is the routine of Abbott and Costello where Costello makes a convincing argument of 7 X 13 = 28. We all know it is wrong because We understand mathematics but Costello cannot be convinced since he has his own methods of understanding.
      It can be found on youtube.

      Reply
      • Jim says:

        August 26, 2015 at 7:24 pm

        Sharbano,

        I’d never seen that before. It’s very funny and pertinent. Thanks!

        Jim

        Reply