Yisroel you base your belief system on miracles. Your discredit all miracles or signs and wonders and you put Mosheh miracle of Elohim speaking to the People as the one Miracle to be believed. Hmm that is basing your faith still on a miracle when we know that faith is walking with confidence in the Presence of YHWH knowing that He will always be their for us.
Abraham is the father in the Faith not Mosheh. Mosheh is the Law giver a prophet. Without Abraham act of pure faith in Elohim, Mosheh and all the People would had not existed.
Miracles proves nothing and maybe given to the weak to test their faith and give them a sort of physical proof of the invisible reality.
Miracles also should be evaluated by degree of power:
1) an elohim talking to a People is not the most powerful miracle proving or giving Mosheh authority any false-demon gods could do the same with YHWH permission to fool the crowd. See Hindus miracles and all demonic manifestations in this pagan land…
2) the miracle the lepers hand or the stick changing to a serpent are old magician tricks of Egypt that do not give anything but only impress weak minds
3) the miracle of the sun is impressive for it requires much more power to do but still with Elohim permission a powerful angel could do it
4) now walking on waters should not be considered also as a powerful proof but could be done by invisible beings sustaining your body… see the many cases of levitation which proves nothing
5) the miracle of the multiplication of bread and fish that starts to become very impressive and powerful but people could alleged that it can not be seen by many
6) the only miracle that can give authority to a prophet is the miracle of Eliyahu and Yahushuo: the Resurrection of the dead for no earthly or angelic powers can do it. Only the Elohim can resurrect a dead body.
Now the testimony of the Gospel gives many such miracles but the most striking to a crowd of many including many Pharisees is the miracle of the resurrection of Lazarus dead in a tomb for 4 days already smelling and decomposing… That is only POSSIBLE by The ELOHIM alone no entity angelic or human, demonic or holy can do it without the Hand of Eloah that is impossible… That is a powerful proof that trumps all pagan or mosaic miracles.
For who is the Master of the Resurrection??
I Am the Resurrection and the Life (Gospel of John 11)
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles[a] away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
Jesus and Death, the Last Enemy
28 And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was[b] in the place where Martha met Him. 31 Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”[c]
32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”
33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?”
They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”
35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”
37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”
Lazarus Raised from the Dead
38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[d] And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. 46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us[e] that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death. 54 Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with His disciples.
55 And the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went from the country up to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves. 56 Then they sought Jesus, and spoke among themselves as they stood in the temple, “What do you think—that He will not come to the feast?” 57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a command, that if anyone knew where He was, he should report it, that they might seize Him.
Eliyahu Moses was the greatest prophet as testified in Scripture – Deuteronomy 34:10-12. Your theory is obviously false. Miracles are not measured by how difficult they are to do – God can do anything – even provide a test to see if we will follow the false prophet. The question is – how much credibility does God allow the prophet to have – Exodus 19:9.
Yisroel what is your authority to decree that my exposition of the gradation of miracles is false? Is it to disturbing to face the truth?
Mosheh certainly was a great prophet : 10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face…(Deuteronomy 34)
That does not make him our father in the Faith which is Abraham
It seems that you make him an idol to be worshipped
That does not make him greater than the Messiah Elohim who saved us from the Spiritual Egypt
That does not make him the living Torah
Who did Moseh saw face to face? Who is this form of YHWH? (Number 12)
Now the Resurrection is not a test of the Elohim but His Promise to us? It is a pillar of the Jewish and Christian Faith, you know that?? Who is the Master of the Resurrection is ONLY THE ONE ELOHIM.
A dead for 4 days as Lazarus (Gospel of John 11) risen from decomposition is only possible by the Elohim. That miracle alone made the population of Yerushala’im accept Yahushuo with palm leaves proclaiming him as the Messiah. Those who saw this amazing miracle accepted his Testimony but you and your sect rejected Him for you were more attached to your sacrificial system and your man made religion that the true Religion based on the Faith of our forefathers whom is first Abraham who had faith in YHWH knowing that sanctifying his son he will be resurrected a type the Son to be sacrificed for the redemption of our sins, him the Innocent Lamb of Passover.
Conclusion: The real faith is in the Resurrection the only true Miracle only capable to be performed by Elohim Himself. Bless is He who came and come and his coming in the Name of YHWH!!
Eliyahu The Torah testifies that the false prophet can do a miracle – not that he could do it but that God will do it through him in order to test us (Deuteronomy 13:3,4). The Torah does not limit the miracle and say – aha! – but a resurrection is different. Therefore Eliyahu – your words contradict the Torah – so I cannot accept them and you cannot expect anyone who loves God to accept them.
Yisroel your argument is nil for it would have been valid if Yahushuo was redirecting worship toward idols. The Resurrection of Lazarus was a clear sign that his word was true for He only preached the worship of the FATHER YHWH
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.[b] 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11
Give us this day our daily bread.
12
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
ypfriend, So there are more trustworthy miracles than the others – according to you. Some shouldn’t prove anything, , the others do. The miracle at Sinai was most trustworthy. But resurrection? No? You claim it is nothing, even if it happened- that conclusion can be made based on your message about resurrection. ( So I am not focusing on proving it did or not). I can only say that I can choose between a group of those who tried to find every way to falsify the resurrection fact or I can choose between those who witnessed it and believed. Who is more trustworthy? Those pharisees who witnessed previously lazarus’ resurrection looked for ways to kill him to get rid of any evidence ( especially resurrection done by Jesus) . They are the same who
‘ missed a sign of Jesus resurrection’ somehow… or just failed to believe . The same way like they tried to make sure nobody would know about Lazarus being risen from the dead by Jesus, the same way they made sure in their news that Jesus’s never rose from the dead.
Back to whether resurrection is a trustworthy miracle or a miracle that can be done by any false prophet to deceive people. OT lists only two people among ONLY God’s righteous people who had a privilege to perform that miracle ( Elisha, Elijah) . As power over death and life belongs strictly to God He is not giving it to ANYBODY just because , nor anybody can just ‘request ‘ it for his deceiving, evil purposes. There was no single person that could just ‘play’ with that power to deceive others and rise others including himself. God’s justice ( sin resulting in death) would be compromised if anybody- a false prophet took that power and could make himself alive anytime he wanted. I =guess – we would have lots of immortal people nowadays.
Jesus is the third person God gave the privilege to raise others from the dead. He also rose Jesus back to life as a proof of his righteousness.
I can see the offense that you feel, written all over your comment. And I understand why you feel this way. It is difficult to hear that one’s faith may be invested in the wrong being. No one likes to face the possibility that he has been deceived, whether by a salesman, a politician, or a religious leader. And when one has invested his emotions is a leader, it becomes hard to hear, not only that that he has been fooled, but that his leader, whom he loves, is not who he thought he was. Yet, we must all face the possibility that we have erred, and we must face the possibility that those we love have been unworthy of our devotion. It will be better for us to face that reality, than to keep giving ourselves to a deceiver.
But how will we know who is the deceiver? You have attributed great deception to the Pharisees. You have implied that they tried to cover up the resurrection, a charge you get from Matthew, I know. You also accuse them of wanting to kill Lazarus, based on the John. And you ask, “Who is trustworthy?”
You should have asked that before privately trying the Pharisees. You have assumed their guilt, based on no evidence except on the say-so of their enemies. (Do you even have two witnesses?)
I think we should investigate Matthew and John, and see if they are trustworthy. Is the way they portray their opponents fair? Is it true? Before I investigate this matter, however, I think would like to take a short detour.
Christians are often capable of deception in order to promote their cause. I once came across a missionary site called jewsforjudaism2000. What is wrong with this? This is an obvious deception. The missionary is hoping to catch the unwary and snare them in his web. He does not present Judaism. Instead he presents his Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53. As far as I can tell, he never updates. Isaiah 53 is his pet scripture, and he misrepresents himself, making a pretense of Judaism, hoping, I am sure, to attract people googling “Jews for Judaism”.
The modern Christian movement has made a habit of deceiving people. This is one reason for the rise of “Messianic Judaism.” Judaizing their Christianity, they hope to make it palatable to the Jewish people. Put a kippah on: your Christianity becomes Jewish. Don tefillin: your Christianity becomes Jewish. Explore the Hebrew language: Jewish.
But this is modern Christianity. While it proves to be untrustworthy, that does not mean that its founders were untrustworthy. If you said this, you were right.
But how can we know? What if Matthew lied about the Pharisees? How will we know if he told the truth or not? Certainly we know that he was not an eyewitness to the Pharisees’ cover up of the resurrection. Conspiracies are not done publicly. We seem to be at an impasse. He could be trustworthy, but I do not know.
Or I would not know if I had not read his book, already. But a careful reading of Matthew reveals that Matthew would say whatever was necessary to prove his belief system. One need only look at his use of the prophets to see that Matthew has not made the truth a priority. His very first employment of a prophecy, Isaiah 7.14, he not only takes out of context, but literally alters the text. He changes the words. I am not referencing turning a “young woman” into a “virgin” either. Isaiah says that the mother of the child would name him Immanuel. Matthew says that “they,” whoever they are, would call him Immanuel. Why? Because Jesus’ name was not Immanuel, and if you want to make it so Isaiah is talking about Jesus, you have to alter the prophecy.
Matthew regularly alters the prophets to suit his agenda. These alterations do not have to be direct changes of the text, like he does with Isaiah 7.14. With Hosea 11.1, he alters the meaning of the prophecy by quoting only a few words so that the reader will not realize that the subject is Israel, not the Messiah. So, now, let us return to the question: is Matthew trustworthy?
The answer is obvious. He is not. Matthew has no respect for the words of the prophets. He does not mind altering the words of God. He certainly cannot be trusted not to make up lies about his opponents. The fact that he attributes a conspiracy to cover up the resurrection to them does not make it true. And, inasmuch as he has shown no respect for the truth thus far, I have no reason to believe that he is not merely maligning his opposition. It is easy to avoid answering their objections if he makes them out to be liars from the beginning. However, it takes very little scrutiny to discover that Matthew is himself a liar, and his accusations are not to be trusted.
John is a little harder to investigate. He seldom quotes Tanach. He does give a simpleton’s reading of the prohibition to break the bones of the Paschal lamb. But he seldom quotes the scriptures Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled. And his testimony cannot be much verified. He does contradict Matthew on several key points regarding the resurrection, but Matthew has already been shown to be a liar. So John could feasibly be in the right.
But we also see that the author of John has a deep antipathy to the Jews. He maligns them merely for their unbelief. One can see from John 5 and 8, and other places, that according to John, one should have accepted Jesus unquestioningly. The fact that the Jews did not accept Jesus without substantial proof, even while Jesus violated the Sabbath is a problem for John. And so, those who do not believe are to be called “sons of the devil” and the like. John’s vitriol spills out for those who do not unquestioningly submit to the unsubstantiated claims of Jesus.
Can he be trusted to have represented the Pharisees fairly? Obviously the answer is “no”. His gospel is full of excoriation for those who do not blindly believe. Clearly he will have to make the Pharisees into villains, for they are a perceived threat to his new found religion. (Also, according to John, it was not the Pharisees who wanted to assassinate Lazarus, but the chief priests.)
I can understand your frustration at having your faith discussed here. It is hard to recognize that we have been lied to all our lives. It is hard to separate our affection from the object of our affection. But you have unfairly maligned the Pharisees. The NT is an unreliable collection. It clearly maligns all who disagree with it, and it is not above attributing evil plots to its foes. Do not give your faith too readily to that gospels which shows itself to be untrustworthy, nor malign those whose testimony you never heard.\
Jim, you are wrong.I don’t feel frustrated . You are trying impose feelings on someone that are not there. I am simply sorry for you all unable to see the truth . Going around with many words but not responding strait.
Jim, you focus on Matthew and John. But NT message is not a message of just two people living at the same time but 27 books written by different authors in different time period confirming the same facts about Jesus . Events with correlation in every book and agreement of the truth presented about how God speaks through His son. Events with testimonies of completely different people confirming the same facts. Events with correlation to OT truth that mankind needs the redemption not just from the enemies but the death and bondage of sin. And simply; gospels are the message with call to repentance and coming to God and message of His forgiveness before Go;s time of judgement comes. It opened the door for many people among the nations to hear the message of God’s forgiveness and come to God. If it opposes anybody it is those who themselves opposed that truth.
If you reread my comments, you will see they were in response to your claim that the Pharisees are not trustworthy. You chose to emphasize events that happened only in their two books, events which prove to your mind the untrustworthiness of the Pharisees. But you accepted those stories uncritically. Those authors were not trustworthy.
Regarding the rest of the NT, it is not trustworthy either. Paul misrepresents Tanach regularly. Hebrews misrepresents Tanach. And it is evident that the NT writers had a poor understanding of the Torah system in general.
But I am glad to see that you are willing to admit that Matthew and John are untrustworthy, at least. If you continue investigating the other books of the NT, you will soon see that they are also not to be trusted.
Paul is particularly without merit. As I mentioned, he misrepresents Torah at regularly. But he also misrepresented himself. It is not credible that he was a student of Gamliel as he claimed. For one thing, he persecuted the Christians according to Acts. Yet, according to the same book, Gamliel was against that sort of thing. Paul does not seem to be much of a student. Moreover, Paul was working for the chief priests, Sadducees. This is also highly unlikely, if he was a Pharisee. The two groups were quite opposed to one another.
Because I focused on the two gospels you spotlighted does not mean that the rest of the NT is trustworthy. Far from it! I only chose those two because you had relied upon their testimony in your comments.
Jim “But I am glad to see that you are willing to admit that Matthew and John are untrustworthy,” Really did I say that? Did I admit that?wow! That is what I don’t like people are doing on that site ; suggesting something that wasn’t said. Anyways no point for me to stretch the discussion about NT being not-trusty. The events in the NT books speak for themselves. Pharisees are not in my spotlight as they are not the main message of the gospels. God’s forgiveness is. Keep your beliefs for yourself, definitely I won’t share them as the truth about the need for what Jesus did goes along with what God said in OT.
Jim, I mentioned Paul , Peter ,John, James ONLY in relation to discussing the Jewish authors and disciples who witnessed Jesus or participated in his life who later wrote the events down. The reason for spotlighting these few.
Eric You are not fighting with me – you are fighting with God’s word. Deuteronomy 13:2(3) clearly says that miracles prove nothing – it gives no limit to the miracle. It doesn’t say “only small miracles.” It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it – again – this is not my idea – it is Scripture – Exodus 19:9
You wrote:
“It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it – again – this is not my idea – it is Scripture – Exodus 19:9”
My response:
Actually it is both. You can’t have one without the other. If no one is present to hear the tree fall in the forest, then it is irrelevant. And if the tree doesn’t fall, then no one will hear even if they are present.
The people witnessed many, many miracles establishing the authority of Moses. It was a continuous and frequent process. If they witnessed ordinary events they would have no reason to trust Moses over anyone else. The events had to be miraculous in nature, and someone had to witness them.
Exodus 19:9
9 Then the YHWH said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, in order that the people may hear when I speak with you and so trust you ever after.”
Early on, prior to Mount Sinai, Moses and the Israelites believed because of the miracles of the staff/snake, leprous hand, and water of the Nile to blood.
Exodus 4: 1 – 9
Exodus 4: 30 – 31
The Israelites again learn to believe/trust in the YHWH and Moses because of another miracle; this time the crossing of the Reed Sea.
Exodus 14:31
And the miracles are not limited to the benefit of the Israelites:
The Egyptians eventually come to understand by way of miracles that the God of the Hebrews is the YHWH.
Exodus 14: 4, 18
The Gentiles (outside of Egypt, beginning with Jethro) began to believe that the YHWH was God of the universe after hearing reports of the miracles performed (10 plagues and crossing of the Reed Sea) which resulted in the deliverance of the Israelites:
Exodus 18: 10 – 11
Rehab the prostitute (and others in Jericho) came to believe after hearing reports of the miracles perform and the defeat of enemy kings that the YHWH is indeed God in heaven and earth.
Joshua 2: 8 – 11
Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Aram, came to understand, due to a miracle which healed him of a skin disease, that the God of the Israelites was the ONLY God in all the earth.
2 Kings 5:15
Through God’s miracle of dwelling among the Israelites beginning at Mount Sinai, it was reaffirmed that He is the YHWH, their God who brought them out of Egypt.
Exodus 29: 45, 46
Upon entering the promised land, the Israelites believed in Joshua as they believed in Moses through God’s miracle at the Jordan crossing.
Joshua 3:7, 13; 4:14
David I was responding to Eric’s point that accuses me of favoring one miracle over another – and my response was that Moses’ special status – above that of other prophets leans on Exodus 19:9. The miracles also play a role in this matter – as is obvious from Deuteronomy 34:10-12, but this has nothing to do with Eric’s argument that one miracles is somehow superior to another – it has to do with the credibility of the miracle. And I acknowledge that miracles confirm the status of a prophet WITHIN the context of the Law of Moses – now that the Law of Moses is here.
Ypfriend, you didn’t really address the main points I put down. Would God give a ‘deceiver’ a right to resurrection; bringing others back to life ? He clearly showed in OT that no-one except His servant was given that privilege. You focused mainly on that conclusion ” It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it ”
To affirm the status of a prophet is not based on the amount of people witnessing a miracle. There could be thousands also witnessing a deceiving miracle so that is not proving the credibility of a prophet either. I am not having anything against miracle on Sinai . I mentioned it it while discussing the bases of credibility.
Eric You ask if God would allow a deceiver to preform a miracle – and the answer is YES! – And God says so Himself – he says that the false prophet brings about a sign and a wonder in order to test us if we love God – Deuteronomy 13:4(5)
Yisroel you deformed the ruah of the Torah. False miracles are there denounced and warming against them are made especially if they teach against the Torah and entice to follow other gods.
But here the Resurrection of Lazarus 4 days in the tomb is not an illusion and YHWH is not a deceiver when the Messiah rose him from the dead. Plus the Messiah did teach to follow other gods but only the Father in the Heavens YHWH.
But let us set this aside and ask us about you observing Torah. If you accuse the Christian of idolatry and their leaders teach about idolatry why don’t you wage war against them??
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Eliyahu Where does the Torah say anything about illusions? The Torah says that God is testing us – if Jesus would be encouraging worship of God than his followers wouldn’t try to convert worshipers of God. You ask why I don’t stone missionaries? The law only applies when Israel is in its land and the Temple is standing.
Beside for the fact that the law only applies in the Land when the Temple is standing, it only applies to other Jews. Christians and the Taliban are not our brother, son, wife, or friend. Oh, by the way–the Taliban are not guilty of idol worship. They are guilty of murder and other horrible offenses and they, together with their ideological brothers ISIS and Hamas and other terror groups, are the most evil of human beings.
Dear Yisroel, you said: ”if Jesus would be encouraging worship of God than his followers wouldn’t try to convert worshipers of God. You ask why I don’t stone missionaries? The law only applies when Israel is in its land and the Temple is standing.”
1) I never saw any Orthodox Christian doing missionary works for we Yehudim, you must then talking about the pseudo-Christian protestant sect to whom I have apprehensions… For that I can understand you as a brother.
2)Yahushuo said it himself I did not come for the just but the sinners… Case closed!
3)When I defend Christians I defend the true ones the ones loved by the One Elohim against the lies and persecutions they constantly have received by their fellow so-called Christian by fanatic Jews or by Muslim Islamic …
Also when I defend my fellow brothers Yehudim and Israel I do it against the dominant culture against them. Against my own family that do not understand why I do Shabat?
4)Contrary to what you said the Law is not suspended when the Temple is not standing. Moseh stoned without any Temple. My question why in Israel then there is no stoning? And if it was… don’t you think that all the nations will accuse you and make them march against you? You will say Hashem has commanded so… Very dangerous interpretation coming from Levites when our father Yaakov warned us against you guys:
5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers;
Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
6 Let not my soul enter their council;
Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
For in their anger they slew a man,
And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
And their wrath, for it is cruel!
I will divide them in Jacob… (Genesis 49)
I prefer the Master Rabbi Teaching who says: let him being without any sin cast the first stone… Ameen!!
Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple
Dina you differ then from Yisroel view. According to your sect Christian are worst than all the human beings for they are accused of idol worship of a man. Compared to the Taliban may be you should unite with them and kill all the Christians and the Western Civilization…
Your sect Yisroel is very very dangerous the only thing separating you from the Taliban and all Islamist is your weak number which would have been dangerous and a return to the stone age with your stoning and animal sacrifice and your literal and carnal view of the spiritual things… Wow I taught we Yehudim were intelligent but with the wrong sect we can become worst than our enemies… Amazing!
Baruch HaShem Adonai for Yahushuo the Messiah of Israel who taught us the real interpretation of the true Torah!!
There you go again with “your sect”. By the way what is the count of Your Sect. No doubt a sect of “ONE”, you and only you.
How can you say your messiah taught the real Torah when he said so little. It is Paul, a Roman, who did all the teaching. Or is it that you are relying on Stephen’s interpretation. A person you have YET to explain regarding his errors and goes against the foundation of your religion. Why do you hide in fear of the tough questions.
Why do you attack G-d so vehemently. It was G-d who instituted all the laws of Torah and YOU have the audacity to call it “carnal”. Furthermore you have no relevant understanding of the “how” of Torah application of its laws.
Are you really holding up “Western Civilization” as a model. It is wholly corrupt and immoral, as the recent ruling of Toevah marriage. A great many Xtians have no issue with it. It is actually Because of Xtianity that it has come to pass.
Sharbano, Christians have been at the forefront of the opposition to legalizing homosexual marriage. It is secular liberal Leftism, not Christianity, that is responsible. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews are on the secular liberal Left, not with us.
To say that Christians don’t care is simply not true. I read the conservative news every day (such as National Review Online), and they are very distressed by the Supreme Court Ruling.
Of course there are those who will probably continue to oppose it, But, there seems to be a great many who are not voicing Any opposition and will say it’s no big deal. I would say it is “Xtian thinking” that has led us to this point. They will ALL speak of loving the sin and not the sinner. The homosexual community has embraced that “love” and it is That basis for their pursuing agenda, “if two love each other”. I believe it really came to a head with the Westboro church protests and their language that virtually All Xtianity decided to oppose THEM and as a result very few spoke anymore of the “sin”. It’s all been loving the person. Even the religious Glenn Beck has joined with that community. I would say once you have a religion that dispels any notion of the Laws of G-d and it’s on the individual to make the decision you will have a generation of tolerance with the next generation embracing. We have seen each generation tolerating more and more. An analysis of This makes it easy to see the next step in progression.
Lion, you are by far the most hateful person I have ever had the misfortune to meet. Do you actually believe all the venom that you spew, or are you just angry and saying crazy things in your anger?
ypfriend, I didn’t ask just about ANY miracle. I asked about resurrection! Power over death and life that only God himself is in charge of. And if He ever gave it to somebody EXCEPT – His close servants!
Eric The Torah makes no such distinction – the Torah just says that God is testing you – God can do anything – a resurrection is no more difficult for God than stopping the sun or making the grass grow.
Ypfriend. The answer is not too satisfying. There is a difference between deceiving miracle and ‘messing up ‘ with forces; death and life or changing the moon course or the sun route or intensity of light of the stars. There are some things that only God is in charge of. Even Egyptian magicians couldn’t change what God commanded; they couldn’t change days of darkness back into day light, they couldn’t resurrect Faro’s firstborn. God doesn’t allow just anything.
If you don’t make a line to what is of God’s what not; then you have no base to measure the authority that is behind a miracle. Then anything can be just testing, deceiving that doesn’t suit us, and anything we want or suits us we would say its from God. God’s authority over granting power over life and death is confirmed starting in Genesis, resurrection by authority of God in Isaiah 25;8 and Daniel 12 and no ‘deceptive creature’ can ‘mess up’ with it. He is the only one mentioned as the authority of resurrection for a certain purpose. . Resurrection is mentioned as a result of our redemption not a sign of any deception.
Eric, you have so convinced yourself that only a righteous man can perform a resurrection that you fail to take into account that Deuteronomy 13 does not delineate any specific type of miracle.
Both Deuteronomy 18 and 13 teach that in order for a prophet to be accepted, not only must his sign materialize, but more importantly, he must not contradict Torah or introduce a new type of worship.
Deuteronomy 13 does not come with a disclaimer attached that says: if someone comes along and performs a resurrection, then by golly, you must listen to him no matter what he says, because the miracle itself proves he is from God.
You wrote that only God messes with the forces of life and death, but I beg to differ. Humans have a lot of power over life and death. Humans partner with God in bringing life into the world, and humans have the capability of taking life. With modern medicine, humans can bring people back from the brink of death in ways that are surely miraculous. That’s pretty powerful. But on the supernatural level, the witch of Endor raised the spirit of Samuel. She was a witch–not exactly a Godly individual (1 Samuel 28).
Jesus expected his generation to accept him BEFORE the supposed miracle of his resurrection. He constantly berated the Pharisees for not accepting him based on his previous miracles although he CONTRADICTED TORAH and INTRODUCED A NEW TYPE OF WORSHIP. According to your book, he angrily and arrogantly agrees to give them the sign of the resurrection, but then HE FAILS TO FULFILL IT by not appearing to them. You defended this by saying that they were so faithless they wouldn’t have believed him anyway. First, your book does not give a reason for this failure. Second, their lack of faith is irrelevant. If you make a promise, you keep it, period, end of story. You can’t blame the Pharisees for something they might have done anyway if you never gave them the chance to prove themselves. How is that just?
But at the end of the day, the sign ONLY MATTERS if the giver of the sign is aligned with Scripture. Jesus contradicted Scripture by abolishing the kosher laws and declaring himself the lord of the Sabbath (among other things); furthermore, he announced a new type of worship by making himself the mediator between man and God (“For no one comes to the Father but by me”). Therefore, according to Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 the Pharisees MUST REJECT him as a false prophet.
Dina, As ferering to “messing with the forces of life and death” I didn’t mean;humans partner with God in bringing life into the world, and I didn’t mean doctors bringing people back from the brink of death with their modern medical equippment, but I meant resurrection. jesus bringing Lazarus to life ater 4 days of the body being in the grave and already decaying. Resurrection of jesus after after his body being completely disformed by the death he went through.
I You wrote that in 2 Samuel 28 the witch of Endor raised the spirit of Samuel.
But she didn’t bring Samuel’s body back to life so that he would be back to present on earth in his bodily form. She was not able to save Saul’s life after he heard he would die. Only God’s servants Elijay and Elisha could perform that miracle and only on whom God allowed. They couldn’t even make themselves back to life.
You bring against jesus that “He constantly berated the Pharisees for not accepting him based on his previous miracles ” The miracles he did were the miracles proving he is the Messiah. spoken in isaiah . Messianic miracles were; the oppening the eyes of the blind, further ; ” the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, And the tongue of the dumb sing.” Nobody was able to open the eyes of the blind from birth so far. jesus was casting out evil spirits that made then death, speechless, crazy, etc freeing man to serve God and he was accused for that as doing it in authority of devil’s ( evil) power. You do not cast evil spirits if you belong to the same one as one same kingdom doesn’t fight against each other own. Jesus made it clear Matthew 12;24-26. Your spirit has to be stronger then the evil to do that and that is from God’s. Matthew 12;29
Healing and casting out a dumb demon- is the miracle only the messiah could perform. The Pharisees recognized this as a messianic miracle, this is why they asked could this be the son of David.
Even evil spirits knew who Jesus was ; God’s son ; Mark 1;23
Also God shows that even reliabe miracles like His before the whole nation , miracles that outcasted any other miracles made by magicians do not make people trust Him, and make ther go their own way, so no fifference with jesus’.
Num. 14:11 Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? Vs.22 “because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice.”
Jesus didn’t do miracles for show but to point to his Messianic authority and make people look for spiritual needs; to look for the food that endures to eternal life ( which is faith in God) instead of coming to him because of being given food
John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”
The most important you have a wrong perception about what it meant ‘giving a sign of Jonah” It was not about coming to a ceratain group of doubting Pharisees face to face. They were not given a chance??? As your rabbi said that miracle would STILL mean nothing even if if happened. I am sure Jesus knew that too.
It was an event that was to happen and happened and anybody who wanted to know had a chance to come to the grave and see. I do not believe Pharisees were ‘deprived ‘ of that information. They all knew where he was laid they all knew he said he would be alive after 3 days so they put the guards. Guards were the witness, terrified, shocked witnessing the angels rolling off the stone. They went back to the priests and said what happened . And what reason did the Pharisees have in bribing the guards and disform the truth we read in Matthew 28;13? Answer yourself. If I was to build my faith on that lie , I have a better option.
To your argument against jesus mediator between man and God . He is a mediator as a hight priest who comes before God with his blood shed for us. The same way like the High priest in OT who was the only one able to come into a very presence of God ( not without a shed blood ) to intercede for people’s sin. God didn’t need that blood for the sake of godly ritual, but a symbol of price paid for peoples sins, price that cost someone his life. ( By the way you never ansered my questions about reasons for blood in the temple..)
Jeremiah 30;21 said the Messiah ( Israel’s ruler) will be the one able to come that CLOSE to God unlike anybody else.
According to Isaiah the Messiah will be in change of everything, so if God gives him authority over Sabbath, I do not have a problem with that. Also Jesus is not changing the law of sabbath.
According to Deut 13 and 18 the false prophet is put to death which is not meant to be fallow by resurrection which is back to life.. Death of false prophet was death.
If you’re going to use a reference from Isaiah why not take the entire section into account. If you are using ch.35 then J’sus certainly did Not fulfill what Isaiah wrote. This is the deceptive nature of Xtianity by taking a partial text and applying that, instead of using the whole. Do you Really believe that the Pharisees would have attributed Isaiah to what’s written here. And Remember, Mark was written nearly a generation After this supposedly occurred.
It is interesting that the resurrection story has differing accounts depending on which book is read. Of course, this goes with many accounts in the four gospels.
It is well known that the sacrifices for sin were not for any intentional sin. If one Intentionally sinned there was no venue of sacrifice. Now, if the sacrifice of this J’sus is supposed to correlate to the temple then How can “his” blood do any good for people with intentional sins. Xtianity wants to say that “his” atonement is a pattern from Korbanot but there isn’t that avenue for those. Another aspect of Korbanot is sin offerings for individuals were female animals. Apparently, according to Xtianity, we should have a female messiah.
Eric, I didn’t reply to this comment yet, but I just replied to many others that address the same subject, and Jim posted a couple of times on the lack of credibility of the stories you cited here from Christian scripture, so I’ll just respond to this:
“According to Isaiah the Messiah will be in change of everything, so if God gives him authority over Sabbath, I do not have a problem with that.”
Where does Isaiah say the Messiah will be in charge of everything? I’m not saying he doesn’t; I just don’t remember reading that, so I would appreciate the reference.
God doesn’t give humans the authority to do anything they want. He set up the rules in Deuteronomy. No human can contradict the Law of Moses. What does Lord of the Sabbath mean anyway? God gave the Sabbath to the entire people of Israel as an eternal sign; someone can’t come along and claim it all for himself (Exodus 31:17).
Eric Again – you impose your own “logic” on the word of God. The Scripture says that God is performing the miracle to test us – and the standard that we are to use to distinguish the true prophet from the fraud is NOT the nature of the miracle – but if the prophet is or is not encouraging worship of the God we know – that is THE message of this passage in Deuteronomy
ypfriend, and such a prophet according to Deut deserves death not resurrection unlike Jesus. So whose testimony is more credible ? God’s or yours? If God has a reason to bring him back to life then jesus is not contradicting Torah. As a false prophet he should have remained in the grave. Second, jesus was not performing miracle of resurrection on himself and by himself while being dead. It is God, not any other false prophet doing that.
“Eric You keep on missing the point – the verse says that it is God who is doing the testing – not the false prophet”
When God is talking about testing in Deut 13;6 He is using a false prophet who says; lets follow other gods that you don’t know..(….) And that prophet shall be put to death.”
First of all Jesus’ call is a call to repentance and not the call for serving other gods.
Second; God clearly says that testing is not a ‘self happening event’ without a false dreamer or prophet, and if their false call or statements or knowledge was used by God to test others, God would still prove their falsehood by their judgement they deserve ; He said ‘ they shall be put to death.” Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION! Resurrection is the sign that we would recognize between the righteous one and the false one.
God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line. No falsehood was ever to be followed by resurrection. God was never raising any ‘bad people’ back to life to ‘do the testing’. Not a single event in OT.
I’d say Jim HAS confirmed J’sus is guilty of bring gods you have not known to the forefront. He STOLE the whole purpose of Pesach and made it about him.
Who can say the resurrection is a valid sign. Even the books do not agree on the details which brings suspicion to the event. Add to that only a “select” few were even privy to this information. That is why the Sinai event is held as the standard for all others that come to pass. Every cult or religion has the same uncorroborated events that only They know about. By this standard the Hari Krishna would be a more authentic belief. Their claim is greater.
Sharbano, Every gospel has different focus. One focuses on one type of details , the other on the other and they all complete each other. One emphasizes one event over the other.
One tells you how the stone was rolled away, the other shows you resurrected Jesus’ encounter with the disciples, the other speaks about first visitors to the tomb, and then the other emphasizes encounter with the angels passing on the message to the worrying people.
“Every gospel has different focus. One focuses on one type of details etc.”
Eric, the gospels don’t complement each other, they contradict each other on fundamental points such as what day it happened, what time of day it happened, how may days and nights he was in the tomb, who saw him first, and so on and so forth. It’s impossible for all versions of the story to have occurred exactly as described.
Eric You are twisting God’s word – the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. The standard that the people are to use is to see if the prophet is encouraging a worship that they did not know. If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere.
“First of all Jesus’ call is a call to repentance and not the call for serving other gods.”
Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him. And if you don’t believe in him you eternally damned. No other Hebrew prophet EVER said such things. This is a brand new idea in worshiping God–that the only way to Him is through a human being. Deuteronomy 4 teaches us that we are to worship God ONLY according the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. And we are to transmit this knowledge to our children.
If all Jesus did was call others to repentance we would have no problem with him.
“Second; God clearly says that testing is not a ‘self happening event’ without a false dreamer or prophet etc.”
Where does God clearly say that? As far as I can see, God does not specify any particular kind of event or exclude any particular kind of event.
“Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION!”
Death was not the confirmation that the prophet was false. The confirmation was the false teaching. God required us to put the false prophet to death, but that could only apply during a time when we had the power to do so. Under Roman rule, the Jews did not have the power to apply the death penalty.
“God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.”
Where does the Hebrew Bible say that? Where is there a disclaimer that says, “But if the prophet is raised back to life, then do anything he says! Even if he says to worship idols!”?
Dina, “Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him.”
Jesus is called ‘word of God’ that is why he is the way the truth and the light the same way like God’s word is your guidance. He fulfills God’;s word, He lives by it.
He also comes in the presence of God as High priest on our behalf . Hebrew 9.
” And if you don’t believe in him you eternally damned.” Another words if you do not believe what God says you are not God’s.
I said “Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION!”
you said ; “Death was not the confirmation that the prophet was false. The confirmation was the false teaching. ”
But the prophet with false teaching is not promised to rise back to life! You are going around with that. If jesus is rewarded with eternal life with God then he is not the false prophet.
“God required us to put the false prophet to death, but that could only apply during a time when we had the power to do so. Under Roman rule, the Jews did not have the power to apply the death penalty.” What are you talking about??? According to your rabbi Jesus is sentenced to death thanks to ‘ highly qualified pharisiess.’ although executors were Romans. What does it change?
“God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.” I made the line??
The baseline is set in Daniel 12;2 righteous are not risen back to life with God , but raise to condemnation.
That’s a really big issue. Xtians come to tell US that even though we believe fully in G-d, follow the Mitzvot, as He required, are faithful to Him, YET, if we don’t believe in this “man-god” we are eternally damned? How is this NOT against Torah, whether J’sus fulfilled Torah, notwithstanding.
That is another occasion that calls into question the veracity of the Xtian text. “Highly qualified pharisees” were Not in position to sentence anyone. The problem with SO many Xtians is they have NO other knowledge than what is in their texts. Because of THIS they are unable to discern what is truth and what is false. I found this to be evident when they are wholly unaware that the Xtian text says Gentiles are to keep the Noachide commandments. So many had no idea what that even meant. You’re making that up, is the typical reply by Xtians on so many similar points.
I’m going to respond to a bunch of your comments in one comment. Having them all in one place is easier, I think.
I wrote that there is no excuse for Jesus not keeping his word to the Pharisees about the sign of his resurrection. You wrote that the resurrection was not for show, but all who wanted could come and see. This is not what your gospels record. They record that word of the resurrection spread 50 days after the supposed event, so what is the point of a sign that you can’t see, that you have to rely on hearsay? That’s not a sign!
Furthermore, you wrote in a later comment that the resurrection confirms that the prophet is true. The resurrection is the sign that proves Jesus is who he said he is. You said that all other miracles don’t necessarily prove a prophet is true, but resurrection is the exception for sure. Yet in the gospels, the Pharisees were expected to believe in Jesus before he was resurrected, when he was supposedly performing other miracles. You are trying to have it both ways.
And you still have not proved that Jesus was justified in not fulfilling his sign to the Pharisees. He even says they don’t deserve it, and they’re evil, and so on, but he says he will give them a sign anyway. Therefore, all your excuses for him fall flat.
“Dina, popularity and appreciation for Jesus is not to be read from history. It is described in the gospels and other epistles.”
It’s not to be read from history? Says who? The problem for Christians is that Jesus lived during a time when educated men were recording history. Two Jews–neither of them Pharisees–and some Roman historians of the time period (such Tacitus) wrote volumes of contemporary history. If Jesus were as popular and famous as the gospels described, it’s inconceivable that no one would have mentioned him. As it is, what references there are have been proven to be later Christian interpolations.
The problem for Christians, then, is that the historical record not only does not support, but also in some cases directly contradicts, the events of the gospels. We know from the historical record, for example, that the real Pontius Pilate bore no resemblance to the character in the gospels. Furthermore, we know from the historical record that the ugly caricature of Pharisees painted in the gospels had nothing to do with the real, live ones who lived at that time.
David (the one on this blog who calls us Jew men) mocked the idea that the Pharisees were tolerant and sneered that instead of Independence Day we should have Pharisee Day. But he was closer to the truth than he realized, as the Pharisees did apply principles of democracy (read about that here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees).
“Dina, I don’t know what you mean by here; to describe differences between Jesus’s condemnation of the Pharisees and the rebukes of the Hebrew prophets???”
Eric, both Jim and I brought you reasons backed by logic and history of why these stories are so shaky. To say that “it is shaky to you, not to us” is not a refutation. It is an admission that you take these stories on faith because they cannot be supported on other grounds.
“you were unable to understand when I explained what was obvious. You saw contradiction no matter what. so I do not go back to that, it is useless!”
And I say, Eric, that you refuse to see the contradictions.
The way we are taught to read the Bible is the very opposite. As far back as the 3rd grade, I remember being encouraged to look for the contradictions, to find questions. We’re not afraid to face them. Truth has nothing to fear.
“Dina, “Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him.”
Jesus is called ‘word of God’ that is why he is the way the truth and the light the same way like God’s word is your guidance. He fulfills God’;s word, He lives by it.”
Eric, you keep changing the argument. If Jesus was a call to repentance, we would have no problem with it. If he were a call to believe in the word of God, we already believe in the word of God–the Torah–so we would also have no problem with that. A person cannot be the word. A lot of people “fulfill God’s word” and “live by it”–that doesn’t make them the way to God. A person can be a prophet, a messenger, of God–nothing more, nothing less.
For a person to say that he is the word of God and therefore he is the way to God is a brand new way of worshiping God, not taught at Sinai as per Deuteronomy 4, and thus must be rejected. Can you reconcile Deuteronomy 4 with this new way of worshiping God, unknown to our fathers?
“But the prophet with false teaching is not promised to rise back to life! You are going around with that. If jesus is rewarded with eternal life with God then he is not the false prophet.”
There isn’t any way for me to know that Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, was rewarded with eternal life. You have to take that on faith. For all anyone knows, he is roasting in hell.
“According to your rabbi Jesus is sentenced to death thanks to ‘ highly qualified pharisiess.’ although executors were Romans. What does it change?”
This is another example where the historical record contradicts the gospel story. According to Jewish law, Jesus did nothing to deserve the death penalty. Death penalty cases were tried according to a set of rules that were not followed in the gospels (for example, the trial could take place only during the day, confession of crime was not acceptable evidence, and so on). Christians want to have it both ways: legalistic Pharisees and lawless Pharisees. (This pattern was repeated throughout history: Jews were hated for being religious and for being secular, for being capitalist and for being communist, for being rich and for being poor, for being powerful and for being helpless.)
This story simply could not have happened the way the gospels portray it.
““God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.” I made the line??
The baseline is set in Daniel 12;2 righteous are not risen back to life with God , but raise to condemnation.”
Deuteronomy 13 nowhere gives an exception for any type of miracle. You turned to an entirely different text that is talking about an entirely different subject to support your own criteria. If a prophet teaches any kind of worship that is different from what we were taught at Sinai, he is a false prophet and there is nothing more to discuss, no exceptions for any kind of miracle. That is the lesson of Deuteronomy 4 and 13.
“All details predicted. No surprise, only to those who don’t want to know God.”
Why do you assume that we don’t want to know God? How can you know what is in our hearts? Do you think that only true Christians can have a real, deep, personal relationship with God? You need to get out and meet some religious Jews.
{And I say, Eric, that you refuse to see the contradictions.}
I’m unsure if it is in the Xtian text, but I have heard that a person should not listen to those who sew doubt about their beliefs. Of course this is most certainly and emphatically a very convenient method to keep their faith. Many times in a debate I have noticed they will listen partially, avoiding direct challenges, and thus they can fulfill this “Xtian mitzvah”, thereby eliminating any chance of loss of faith. What we have seen here, and what I’ve seen elsewhere bears this out.
Yisroel the Resurrection is a game changer. Eric points are valid. The consequence of a false prophet is death no Resurrection. The Resurrection is the validation of Yahushuo as the Eternal Messiah the Dabar in the Flesh.
Paul conversion is a consequence of that Resurrection.
The Passover from Death to Life, from Bondage to Freedom is the Resurrection. Christianity is the celebration of the Resurrection.
Judaism is still in the waiting having missed the New Creation
But the sign of Yonas will be available soon when you will witness this:
Revelation 11 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Two Witnesses
11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,[a] saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God[b] of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
The Witnesses Killed
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
The Witnesses Resurrected
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11)
Eric, to go along with what Jim said, it is not meant by anyone to be unkind to say that a miracle doesn’t automatically testify to the truth of a position. Everyone claims miracles. Christians say Jesus rose from death, Muslims say that Muhammad wrote the Qur’an even though he was illiterate. Even the New Testament tells you not to trust in miracles because they can’t always be trusted.
We know that a few of the miracles that Moses himself performed were replicated by Pharaoh’s magicians, that wouldn’t grant legitimacy to them. That means simply that a miracle doesn’t serve as a validation. If you notice, when the Hebrews doubt Moses’ leadership relatively regularly, he presses on, continues to lead them in spite of their objections, continues to care despite their obstinacy.
Moses himself suspects and anticipates doubt, (as he himself testifies, in Exodus 4:1) “What if they do not believe in me?” Very few people realize that Moses himself wasn’t unsympathetic to the doubters.
Jesus by contrast gets very very upset when people doubt his claims. He gets very inflammatory. When he first tells the disciples he needs to die, Peter, his number one student says “heaven forbid master that you should die.” What a godly thing for Peter to say to his rabbi. How does Jesus respond to an act of compassion? Mathew 16:23 “Get behind me Satan!” Even if it were G-D’s plan for Jesus to die, at the time, his students didn’t even know, nor could they be expected to know. Nobody should accept a claim until the pudding is brought to substantiate the claim.
I have asked many questions still no answers, specially this one who seems very disturbing for Yisroel and cie:
Who did Moseh saw face to face? Who is this form of YHWH?
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12; NKJV)
Actually, I answered you on this one, but you did not respond; perhaps you did not see it. Concerned Reader answered you several times on this topic. Did you miss all of his answers?
On the other hand, you have ignored our questions. One of the most recent ones: how do you translate Isaiah 38:13? And also, find a source in Tanach or the Talmud that says that Gentiles are dogs.
If I were you, I would say that you are not answering because these questions are so disturbing to you.
Lion I answered you on this question multiple times. The form of G-d can be a prophetic vision as in Ezekiel, Daniel, and in Isaiah. It doesn’t imply at all that G-d is physical, or that he takes on the forms of anything in heaven, on earth, or the forms of the whole host of heaven which Israel IS FORBIDDEN TO PRAY TO (Deuteronomy 4:19.)
Learn to read our responses to you MORE CAREFULLY, and then maybe we can have an honest dialogue. You keep asserting that no answers are given to this question. I have responded to this same question of yours 3 times now. Read the vision of G-d’s throne found in Ezekiel and in Isaiah, and notice carefully how the visions are different from each other in the details. ITS BECAUSE THEY ARE VISIONS IN THE PROPHET’s MIND’S EYE, NOT LITERAL BODIES OR PHYSICAL ENTITIES OR DESCRIPTION’s of G-d’s essence.
G-d is completely beyond the caragories of the material world. I’m surprised that you (as a supposedly orthodox Christian) do not know that G-d is without body or form? http://www.catholic.com/tracts/god-has-no-body
Tatian the Syrian (author of the Diatessaron, the first known gospel harmony.)
“Our God has NO INTRODUCTION IN TIME. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, NOT ATTENDING UPON MATRER, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is INVISIBLE, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).
Con like always you bring substance to the debate. But that confirms that Moseh did not see the FATHER Eternal but the Messiah Eternal Elohei Israel who is the form of YHWH:
Here is the Hebrew: פֶּה אֶל־פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר־בּוֹ וּמַרַאֶה וַלֹא בְחִידֹת וּתְמֻנַת יַהוָה יַבִּיט
”Mouth to mouth I will speak in(with) him and appearance(sight) not in mystery
In a form of YHWH he will look …”
And the link proves that the ancients (the wise) of the holy Orthodox Knesse never taught idolatry:
Tatian the Syrian
“Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).
Athenagoras
“I have sufficiently demonstrated that we are not atheists, since we acknowledge one God, unbegotten, eternal, invisible, incapable of being acted upon, incomprehensible, unbounded, who is known only by understanding and reason, who is encompassed by light and beauty and spirit and indescribable power, by whom all things, through his Word, have been produced and set in order and are kept in existence” (Plea for the Christians 10 [A.D. 177]).
Irenaeus
“Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God” (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).
Clement of Alexandria
“The first substance is everything which subsists by itself, as a stone is called a substance. The second is a substance capable of increase, as a plant grows and decays. The third is animated and sentient substance, as animal, horse. The fourth is animate, sentient, rational substance, as man. Wherefore each one of us is made as consisting of all, having an immaterial soul and a mind, which is the image of God” (Fragment from On Providence [A.D. 200]).
“Being is in God. God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists. Being is that which wholly subsists. Nature is the truth of things, or the inner reality of them. According to others, it is the production of what has come to existence; and according to others, again, it is the providence of God, causing the being, and the manner of being, in the things which are produced” (ibid.).
“What is God? ‘God,’ as the Lord says, ‘is a spirit.’ Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself” (ibid.).
“No one can rightly express him wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form” (Miscellanies 5:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
“Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind” (Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [A.D. 225]).
“John says in the gospel, ‘No one has at any time seen God,’ clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no nature to which God is visible, not as if he were indeed visible by nature, and merely escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature, but because he is by nature impossible to be seen” (ibid. 1:1:8).
Athanasius
“God, however, being without parts, is Father of the Son without division and without being acted upon. For neither is there an effluence from that which is incorporeal, nor is there anything flowering into him from without, as in the case of men. Being simple in nature, he is Father of one only Son” (Letter on the Council of Nicaea 11 [A.D. 350]).
Didymus the Blind
“God is simple and of an incomposite and spiritual nature, having neither ears nor organs of speech. A solitary essence and illimitable, he is composed of no numbers and parts” (The Holy Spirit 35 [A.D. 362]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“First it must be remembered that God is incorporeal. He does not consist of certain parts and distinct members, making up one body. For we read in the gospel that God is a spirit: invisible, therefore, and an eternal nature, immeasurable and self-sufficient. It is also written that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. For of these the members of a body consist, and of these the substance of God has no need. God, however, who is everywhere and in all things, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-doing, and all-assisting” (Commentary on the Psalms 129[130]:3 [A.D. 365]).
Basil the Great
“The operations of God are various, but his essence is simple” (Letters 234:1 [A.D. 367]).
Ambrose of Milan
“God is of a simple nature, not conjoined nor composite. Nothing can be added to him. He has in his nature only what is divine, filling up everything, never himself confused with anything, penetrating everything, never himself being penetrated, everywhere complete, and present at the same time in heaven, on earth, and in the farthest reaches of the sea, incomprehensible to the sight” (The Faith 1:16:106 [A.D. 379]).
Evagrius of Pontus
“To those who accuse us of a doctrine of three gods, let it be stated that we confess one God, not in number but in nature. For all that is said to be one numerically is not one absolutely, nor is it simple in nature. It is universally confessed, however, that God is simple and not composite” (Dogmatic Letter on the Trinity 8:2 [A.D. 381]).
Gregory of Nyssa
“But there is neither nor ever shall be such a dogma in the Church of God that would prove the simple and incomposite [God] to be not only manifold and variegated, but even constructed from opposites. The simplicity of the dogmas of the truth proposes God as he is” (Against Eunomius1:1:222 [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
“[Paul] knows [God] in part. But he says, ‘in part,’ not because he knows God’s essence while something else of his essence he does not know; for God is simple. Rather, he says ‘in part’ because he knows that God exists, but what God is in his essence he does not know” (Against the Anomoians 1:5 [A.D. 386]).
“Why does John say, ‘No one has ever seen God’ [John 1:18]? So that you might learn that he is speaking about the perfect comprehension of God and about the precise knowledge of him. For that all those incidents [where people saw a vision of God] were condescensions and that none of those persons saw the pure essence of God is clear enough from the differences of what each did see. For God is simple and non-composite and without shape; but they all saw different shapes” (ibid., 4:3).
Augustine
“In created and changeable things what is not said according to substance can only be said according to accident. . . . In God, however, certainly there is nothing that is said according to accident, because in him there is nothing that is changeable, but neither is everything that is said of him according to substance” (The Trinity 5:5:6 [A.D. 408]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“We are not by nature simple; but the divine nature, perfectly simple and incomposite, has in itself the abundance of all perfection and is in need of nothing” (Dialogues on the Trinity 1 [A.D. 420]).
“The nature of the Godhead, which is simple and not composite, is never to be divided into two” (Treasury of the Holy Trinity 11 [A.D. 424]).
“When the divine Scripture presents sayings about God and remarks on corporeal parts, do not let the mind of those hearing it harbor thoughts of tangible things, but from those tangible things as if from things said figuratively let it ascend to the beauty of things intellectual, and rather than figures and quantity and circumscriptions and shapes and everything else that pertains to bodies, let it think on God, although he is above all understanding. We were speaking of him in a human way, for there is no other way in which we could think about the things that are above us” (Commentary on the Psalms 11[12]:3 [A.D. 429]).
I find serious issues with any method of referring to G-d in separate “parts”, whether it is called Dabar or anything else. If one of His attributes is considered to have it Own existence how is that Not another god. So, in Xtian terms there are three, as one, segregated but the same. My physical body here is a unique entity and my words and thoughts are me. They are not separate entities. If Dabar is unique unto itself, then His “thoughts” also should be a unique entity. When He unleashes His wrath, that too, would be another entity. If He loves His firstborn son, then this too should be its own entity. We cannot stop at His Dabar and then say this is all the sum total of His entities. We can see how man envisions G-d with the mural that is in the Sistine chapel. From my perspective I had seen that image and never imagined that G-d was one of the two. When I first found that out I was literally Shocked, to the core. I could never imagine people would have that representation. I foolishly thought it might have been perhaps Abraham and Isaac, as if some reference to the Akeidah. It’s much more comfortable to imagine G-d as an “entity”, if even that is the proper term, of nothing but pure thought, pure will and nothing physical. If He has created a Universe with virtually an infinite amount of Galaxies and we are a mere speck in One of those galaxies how can it be that he is reduced to the stature of a man on a single planet, among a single solar system, among a single galaxy, among an infinite count of galaxies. We don’t even know what is Past those galaxies we see from this single planet. How arrogant of mankind to think he can see this G-d in its full glory. It’s much more acceptable to consider Him as so far elevated above that His “energy” would destroy the world if He made literal contact, since He holds the entire Universe together with His will. It is understandable that His immense Power is So Great, beyond any human comprehension, that it has to be transmitted down to us via an increasing number of filters. Imagine, for instance, that we cannot look directly at the sun, which is so miniscule compared to His Power and we should be able to look at His full Glory, which is infinite compared to the sun. It is beyond rational thought.
You wrote:
“… Moseh did not see the FATHER Eternal but the Messiah Eternal Elohei Israel who is the form of YHWH:”
My commentary:
Your many citations don’t actually support your claim that Moses “saw” the Messiah, nor that the Messiah is the “form” of the YHWH, nor that Moses did not behold the form (temunah) of the YHWH.
Let’s go back to Exodus to the passage in question. The context is that after the incident of the golden calf, Moses makes a request of God that he wants to see His “glory.” God consents to show his glory also referred to as his “goodness” but explains that no one may see His face and live, Moses will only see his back. Obviously the language of body parts is figurative. The deeper meaning is that while Moses will behold (with the eyes, or spiritual eyes, meaning the heart, is not critical to know for our purposes here) of the glory of God like no other man had since; yet he will not partake of the most intimate nature of God as represented and symbolized by God’s face.
Exodus 33:18 – 20, 23b
18 Moses said, “Show me your glory, I pray.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you the name, ‘The YHWH’; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.” “…you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.”
And, we see the concept repeated in Numbers that the relationship between Moses and God is more intimate than even that which God has among other prophets. The “form” (Hebrew Temunah) as used in numbers 12:8 occurse 10 in Hebrew Scriptures. We should not make the false assumption here that it is necessarily a “physical” form. The Hebrew Temunah is defined as follows:
“something portioned (that is, fashioned) out, as a shape, that is, (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):—image, likeness, similitude.”
Numbers 12:8
With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form (temunah) of the YHWH. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?”
The same Hebrew word “temunah” is used by the Psalmist describing how he will behold the face of the “YHWH” when he is resurrected. We know he is referring to the YHWH and NOT the Messiah, from verse one.
Psalm
17:1
“Hear my just cause, O YHWH; attend to my cry…”
17:15
“As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness (temunah) when I awake.”
And, obviously the same Hebrew word (temunah) is used in the passage of Deuteronomy 4, including Deuteronomy 4:15 among others. Less there be any doubt, it was indeed the YHWH and NOT the Messiah, as noted in Deuteronomy 4:12 who spoke to them out of the fire.
Deuteronomy 4:12
“Then the YHWH spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form (temunah)—only a voice.”
Deuteronomy 4:15
“So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form (temunah) on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire”
David that is your interpretation which I respect but if you think that the Infinite Pure Holy Essence of Eloah can be seen in a form you are mistaken. That is impossible!! Only through the Eternal Son Beloved can we see. For his face is the Sun of Righteousness the Resurrection and the Life through Him we see the Transcendent Light. To those who have been elected before the foundation of Time!!
You all failed to respond because the form of YHWH who Moseh saw was the Messiah Himself for Yahushuo is the Image of the Invisible Elohim. It is also the ”in OUR image of Genesis”
”Then Elohim said, “Let Us make Adam in Our image, according to Our likeness” (Genesis 1:26)
”So Elohim created man in His own image; in the image of Elohim He created him; male and female He created them.” (Genesis 1:27)
These verses from the upstart of the Torah proves that Elohim a plural is One where the IN HIS OWN IMAGE is Elohim the Messiah where Adam comes from. It establishes that the IN OUR IMAGE is the prototype of the sons of Elohim
”15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”
(Colossians 1)
You are engaging in simple Eisogesis here Lion! No wonder you come to the conclusions you do about the Bible. You are only interested in putting Jesus into Tanakh verses where you already believe that he fits. You have no contextual reason to believe these verses are about Jesus, you just believe they are about him. Thank you for finally showing us your “method” of reading scripture for what it really is.
If the only rebuttal to our scriptural citations that you can give is to say “you disagree with me, so you are just wrong,” then you have lost all ground on which to stand objectively in this dialogue. You can’t just say that a verse refers to Jesus because the NT says it does, that’s no different than a Muslim saying that the NT proves the Qu’ran because the Qu’ran says it does!
If you are not interested in the answers you have recieved, fine! But don’t come here slandering people and their character expecting to score points for your position, when it rests solely on your personal beliefs.
Con your mind is confused and overwhelmed by the truth. You confound personal beliefs with the Revelation to men of Eloah. You judge with pride when you are not establish to judge. You think by your personal beliefs you can model the Revelation to your carnal mind. If it overwhelms you be humble like all Israel who cry to Mosheh to be their intermediary between the Elohim and them.
Is it so difficult for you to understand Torah?
What is obvious for a pure mind must be foggy and difficult for a carnal mind. You can stay with your present mind but a judgement day do not say that you were unaware that you bashed and denigrated the little children of Eloah, for you were instructed by me to reform your mind but you choose the way of the stones instead of the way of the Messiah.
Bless be the humbles for the will inherit the Land!!
Onces again: insistence that your view is correct is not an argument. Just labeling your opponents carnally minded and yourself spiritually minded does not make it so.
It will not take an astute reader to note that you have once again changed the subject. You have set a standard for identifying a prophet which is contrary to that given by HaShem. Now that it has been shown that your position is contrary to Torah, you deflect. You return to looking for theophanies. That is not the topic.
While you are so quick to point out what you feel no one has answered, let us remember that you asserted that the resurrection is terribly important. You have argued that it means he had the support of God. This is not the standard of the Torah, as you can see from what R’ Blumenthal has presented.
I also remind you that you have not answered me regarding the resurrection, the point that you found so important but on which you now turn evasive. R’ Blumenthal kindly put my comments to you in one place, here:https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/reflections-on-an-alleged-resurrection-three-letters-from-jim/ . Or shall we take from your silence there and your deflection here that you have no answer, that the resurrection is of no significance whatsoever?
Jim
P.S. You still owe us a retraction regarding your claim that the Tanach calls non-Jews “dogs”.
Many people when learning a new word have the tendency to use it whenever they can. This is what it looks like with your overuse of “carnal mind”. You throw it around like a person who boasts of their own superiority. I’ve seen many a person boast of themselves but never have I seen one who could compare to you. It is beyond all belief. In this boastful approach are you emulating your J’sus. Is THIS how mankind should act to one another. In all my many years never have I heard such pomposity as this,
“for you were instructed by me to reform your mind but you ”
I mean, Really, who do YOU think you are. You are not G-d. You are not even J’sus. You are nobody who comes here with delusions of grandeur with Only the desire to castigate people you feel are beneath you. What a sad state. And to quote YOUR J’sus, what did he say, “let him without sin cast the first stone”. I take it you are suggesting you are without sin. Then, to top it all off you have the unmitigated gall to suggest You are “humble” with the words:
“Bless be the humbles for the will inherit the Land!!”
Well, I suggest to you that given your statement you will never inherit the Land.
Breathtaking argument! One is swept away by the pure logic, backed by crystal clear Scriptural citations. Who can fail to be persuaded? Who can stand in the face of such powerful reasoning?
Eliyahu How do you expect us to take you seriously – when you don’t take yourself seriously. In one sentence you tell us that you know Hebrew because you have Israeli relatives and in the next you tell us that modern Hebrew is not Biblical Hebrew. In one sentence you berate us for translating a word differently than some Christian scholars and then you go and translate a word differently than every scholar under the sun. Don’t expect anyone to take you more seriously than you take yourself. By the way – I understand that it is painful to be living a life of contradictions – the door to teshuva is always open.
Yisroel you understand with your limited human mind. What can I expect of you? Mosheh was your leader, he was an elohim in human flesh. An elohim to Pharaoh but also to all Israel. You revere him and you do well.
Carnal minds understand carnally
Wicked minds understand wickedly
Pure minds understand purely
Simple minds understand simply
Human minds understand humanly
Angelic minds understand angelically
Holy minds understand the holy
Messianic minds understand the Messiah
Prophetic minds understand the Prophets
Elohim minds understand divinely
Choose your minds from the lower planes for to you the mysteries has not be unveiled. You can not expect a mouse to understand like a dolphin nor a monkey like a man. Nor a man like angel, nor a slave like a prince…
I wonder EL, do you even know what elohim even means. Apparently Not since you phrase it as “elohim in human flesh”. Since G-d is called Elokim you assume the “word” means G-d. Far from it. Everything written regarding G-d speaks to His Attributes and NOT to His essence. To think that “words” can define such an essence is, in itself, a type of idolatry. How can mere words describe something that is infinite. Can you write the Number “infinity”. Can you describe infinity. This is how you and Xtianity try to turn G-d into something definable, with substance, with a finite existence, when it cannot be definable, is without substance and is infinite in all, in thought AND existence.
You keep repeating yourself even After you’ve been answered. I gave the response from the Rambam on this matter regarding Tselem. One thing you fail to do in All cases is to look for the same word and it usage elsewhere. If you have questions THIS is the most appropriate method to use, and NOT just come up with an idea. And also, how is any of this based upon any ruach. You have simply parroted what every other Xtian has said for centuries. What you say is nothing new. All you have done is “dress it up” to make it sound “new and improved”.
Lion, you freely accuse all of us of lying, but you are guilty of a blatant lie. We have in fact answered you on this–some of several times.
I will repeat some of what I wrote because it is tiresome to keep repeating myself, especially to someone who has stuffed his fingers in his ears while chanting, “Nah, nah, nah.”
Deuteronomy 4 repeatedly warns us that we are not to associate God with any form whatsoever. Throughout the Torah we are CLEARLY warned to worship God alone. God is CLEARLY described as being One and being alone; He is never CLEARLY described as a plural entity in communion with other persons in the godhead. (All your “proofs” are based on hints.)
Therefore, even if your interpretations of theophanies in Scripture are accurate, meaning, even if God really did appear in human form in Scripture a thousand times, it is irrelevant to how we worship Him, because God Himself instructed us how to worship Him, and He forbade us from associating Him with any form or with any other entities (see Deuteronomy 4 again).
In short, Deuteronomy 4 makes all your arguments about “Let us make man in our image” and Moshe seeing the form of Hashem completely irrelevant. Worthless. Moot. Pointless.
Lion, I have shown using revelation chapter 13 how literally anyone can claim to be G-d, can be “resurrected” and can do miracles, and how NONE OF THESE THINGS ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN BOOK PROVES THAT A PERSON IS TELLING TRUTH FROM G-D,OR IS FIT TO BE SERVED.
Yisroel you said: ”Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple”
1) Do you know what Orthodox Christian means?
2) Do you think that your worship of heylel is intentional or even known to you?
3) Do you know what was the Messiah mission on this earth?
4) Do you who was the form of YHWH that Mosheh saw in Numbers?
Yisroel you have been deluded for more than 2000 years and still hanging on to your carnal view of Scriptures. Only a purified mind can see truly!!
Yisroel, Eric argumentation is very solid compared to yours which is highly sophistic in nature.
How did Moseh made known Elohei Israel to Israel?
How his credibility was established?
What you accused Christian, Moseh did it to establish his authority to the People.
Now the argument of Resurrection establishes that Yahushuo is the Messiah. Actually the power of his Resurrection even converted Saul the most zealous of Pharisee. It establishes a sufficient numbers of witnesses to conquer the world to the Messiah of Israel.
The Prophet to come after Moseh is not Yahushuo for Yahushuo is the form of YHWH the Eternal Messiah Master of Space and Time, the Dabar (SON DAVID) in the Flesh. The one Messenger sent to Israel that All Israel most obey for it is written in Exodus 3 and many other passages of Holy Scriptures:
2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Elohei Abraham, Elohei Isaac, Elohei Yaakov for our 3 forefathers saw the Eternal Messiah who is NOT a mere man but Elohei Israel in the Flesh…
Your rejected him for your carnal view did not want to submit to the Reality of Eloah. Your argumentation is based therefore on pride who begot your lies and deceits.
Convert to real Judaism not your small sect who deformed Scriptures like Jeremiah predicted it. Turn to Elohei of our forefathers let go your false god heylel, be strong have courage to let go your lie. If not you will not reign with the Messiah in the world to come.
Your sect has been preserved to become the footstool of the One Messiah of Israel!!
“our 3 forefathers saw the Eternal Messiah who is NOT a mere man but Elohei Israel in the Flesh…”
Now that’s quite interesting. I wonder why the patriarchs never bothered to mention that they saw the messiah. Such a profound thing to see and NOT mention it to anyone. Wow.
I don’t share Lion’s conclusions but God never shared the fact that Moses beheld His “form” until his (Moses’) authority was challenged by Miriam and Aaron. Had his authority never been challenged it is likely that we may never have know of this interesting fact that Moses beheld the form of the YHWH.
The YHWH was careful not to reveal His form to the Israelites as attested in Deuteronomy 4 so that those who recently left paganism and who were in fact still, as late as 40 years into the promised Land, grappling with the fact that their hearts were turned towards the gods of Egypt and in fact were in possession of such gods (Joshua 24 pertains)
Never the less, Lion is mistaken in his conclusion that the 3 patriarchs witnessed the actual Messiah or the YHWH in form. That’s not to say that they didn’t “see his day” which is an entirely different meaning.
All that has to be said here, that is if you Believe G-d’s Own Words, that No One can look upon G-d and live. Mankind cannot behold such Energy. If we cannot look directly at the sun then how much more so G-d’s infinite energy.
Sharbano the word Messiah came later in Scriptures. The Eternal Messenger(Messiah) Malakh(Messenger) the Dabar in the Flesh was seen by Abraham being accompanied by two angels although not as clearly than Moseh for Moseh was special an unique in his relation with the Dabar… for he had the mission to build a Nation!!
As one person aptly said, you are speaking Xtianese. You want to define angel into your own Xtianese. Abraham was visited by Angels, plain and simple. End of story!
Sharbano did you read Genesis 18. Adonai speaks directly to Abraham and visited him with two angels. Here again it is the form of YHWH the Eternal Dabar in the Flesh Master of Time speaking:
Genesis 18 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Son of Promise
18 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,[a] as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”
(Note that Abraham does not say my lords but Adonai)
They said, “Do as you have said.”
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”
So he said, “Here, in the tent.”
10 And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.”
(Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing.[b] 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”
(Note that the Lord here is in Hebrew YHWH saying to Abraham, obviously the Eternal Dabar in the Flesh speaks for His Father YHWH)
Sure! Change the subject once again. You are most certainly an expert in this. Since you are Unable to rebut you have to resort to other methods.
Where does it “say” the Son of Promise
First of all it says “three men”. Are YOU suggesting G-d is made of three men.
Of course you omitted the answer that is clear in the next chapter.
“The two ANGELS came to Sodom”.
WOW! Your answer is found just a little later.
AND in typical fashion for you, and how the Xtian text perverts Torah, you fail to recognize salient information.
“The men turned from there and went to Sodom, while Abraham was still standing BEFORE HASHEM. And Abraham came forward and said…”
WOW! These men left yet Abraham is still Before Hashem.
This is the worst perversion of the words of Torah, where a person is led to believe G-d is in the form of THREE MEN.
Sharbano where did I say in the form of three men. I said one of the three is the form of YHWH the Messiah Eternal the Dabar in the Flesh. The other two are two angels. I said note the word Adonai when Abraham speaks and precisely continue his conversation with YHWH directly.
Are you saying the ETERNAL speaks human? That the ETERNAL is human. Only his DABAR who is his Eternal Image in the Flesh his Form his Face speaks to us. Is it so difficult to grasp without distorting the Holy Torah??
No matter HOW you want to word it, or the words used, the simple fact IS you believe in a god of flesh and blood. This is paganism at its finest.
As it says, they LEFT. Also the proof is in When Hashem speaks it is Hashem and when adonai it is to the angels. But you would rather believe in a man-god rather than Hashem as ONE, and “besides Him there is no other”.
Dina it is strange that you say that when I asked this and was not responded:
Eliyah Lion says:
June 29, 2015 at 9:43 am
Yisroel you said: ”Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple”
1) Do you know what Orthodox Christian means?
2) Do you think that your worship of heylel is intentional or even known to you?
3) Do you know what was the Messiah mission on this earth?
4) Do you who was the form of YHWH that Mosheh saw in Numbers?
Yisroel you have been deluded for more than 2000 years and still hanging on to your carnal view of Scriptures. Only a purified mind can see truly!!
I’m really disgusted by this constant sanctimonious self adulation you have. Purified mind??? Get real. If you had such purity of mind would you mislead people in your Hebrew knowledge. It has been proven, without any doubt, that you have mislead the people here on that account. You were unable to recognize “mouth to mouth” until it was pointed out to you. This is probably one of the first words a little Jewish kid would learn, yet you couldn’t discern it.
Sharbano you accusations are baseless. I referred to the English Text New King James Version first I did not use the Hebrew first. And what this has to do with the arguments provided that destroys your false interpretations of Tanakh and Torah which your sect has brainwashed you with.
Convert to real and true Religion the one of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov. The one who Moseh saw and felt mouth to mouth… You are so far from the truth blinded by your misunderstanding by lies and deceits coming from your mother Babylon… Get out of Her and may be you will be saved!!
How would you “know” of the “religion” of the patriarchs. Your entire knowledge has its “ORIGIN” in the Xtian text first and foremost. You have never been introduced to True Torah teachings that came from Moshe at Sinai and handed down from generation to generation. Do you think Moshe didn’t know what he spoke about. What HE taught is the same as what is taught today. Your teaching if foreign to G-d, Jews, and Judaism. We all know what Torah teaches about foreign gods. There are warnings From Moshe regarding “wood and stone”, Xtianity and Islam. You have admitted how paramount the (wood) cross is in your religion. We follow Neither wood, Nor stone.
Lion, I was referring to the argument you keep presenting over and over and over again that God appeared in a physical form throughout Scripture; this form was Jesus; therefore your worship of Jesus is justified.
We have responded to that argument many times over and you have ignored our responses, simply repeating the same argument yet again. It gets tiresome talking to someone who keeps his fingers stuffed in his ears.
Sharbano come on you did not believe Misrahi when he talked about wood and stone. That is so out of context from the text of Tanakh. You accuse the Christian of taking prophetic passage applied to the Messiah and you do so much worse by following the teaching of a blind man. How pathetic from your part!!
I could debate you Misrahi and destroy all the lies he teaches on JC like he likes to call Him. This false rabbi is a poisoning your mind with false mishnah. The pure Mishnah you reject: choosing men instead of Eloah. How idolatrous you are!!
What are you talking about – Mizrachi.
There IS a distinct correlation between Xtianity and Islam regarding sin. Xtian has a cross of wood that their sins are upon. As you yourself stated, the cross as altar. Now, in Mecca the black stone serves the same purpose, to deposit the sins of the person. There wood and stone of these to religions are methods of salvation. As it says, wood and stone, that cannot save. There is no other answer but this. Both your religions each rely on their own salvation conduits.
36 “The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods—wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you. (Deuteronomy 28)
Sharbano this is your country of origin… Again your speculation is crumbling. That is what happen when you follow Mizrachi…
Sharbano your one line response show that your are of bad faith. If you were a genuine Jew you will take time to explain your theory correctly. Again what about this passage of Deuteronomy 29 who are the silver and gold… If wood and stone are what you said … Silver and gold are which religion …Hinduism??
Deuteronomy 29:17
and you saw their abominations and their idols which were among them—wood and stone and silver and gold…
Be consistent Sharbano develop your theory or may be you need Mizrachi help…
You really are a beginner at this aren’t you. If you made the effort to “study” scriptures instead of coming to some esoteric interpretation you would have known that people use silver and gold for adornment. Tanach Does explain itself if one makes the effort to learn.
I must say when you referred to a wood cross as an altar that was quite compelling in concluding what the words mean, especially since you consider Your sect as the only authentic one. It makes the meaning even more true.
1)I do not refer to this name but to יהושע Yahushuo which mean YHWH saves
2)Orthodox Christianity is not a sect but a religion
3)Sects are heretics from Judaism or Christianity that have gone astray clinging on to false doctrine coming from men or demons
4)False religions are all the religions that do not invoke pray and worship the true Elohim: Elohei Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov and do not recognize the true Messiah of Israel
Yisroel said: “… the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. The standard that the people are to use is to see if the prophet is encouraging a worship that they did not know. If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere.”
Yisroel you are right but where we differ is here: “If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere”
Yahushuo proved his claim by His Resurrection for no power can resurrect flesh to a spiritual form unless YHWH does it by the power of His Ruah. The claim of YAHUSHUO is the claim of the Elohim. You deny the Resurrection because you know the consequence for your false view. Saul-Paul conversion came from the Resurrection without it Paul would have still been a pharisee. His conversion is a powerful testimony that Yahushuo Himself is the living Torah Master of Time and Space the One designated by YHWH to destroy the power of the Heylel.
Eliyahu according to your ever-changing “ruah” a resurrection may “prove” something – but according to the eternal words of God the standard to measure a prophet is NOT a resurrection but conformance to the testimony of God’s witnesses and this Jesus failed to do
ypfriend “the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. ”
God says put such to death, then He raises Jesus back to life. Do you see what I meant? If someone was to be put to death that was followed by staying in that state; staying dead! not back to life or else God acts against His own word.
Con, he ( false prophet) rises to life followed by everlasting judgement. Did Jesus raise to judgement ? No, the opposite , revelation and gospels shows he is the one through whom God will judge everybody! And all info about antichrist is based on NT not OT , since when all of a sudden NT is a source of a message to support any claims to you???
Eric, Deuteronomy 13 teaches that if any self-proclaimed prophet teaches a new way to worship God then he is a false prophet NO MATTER WHAT. The text says that if that is the case, we should not be swayed by his miracle making, because God is testing us to see if we love Him. The text does not add an exception: “But if he rises to life after three days, then listen to whatever he says, no matter how new and different.”
You’re adding your own disclaimers that are not in the Torah.
By the way, the resurrection never even happened, did I mention that already? Did I, or maybe Jim, or someone, explain why that story is so terribly shaky? Hmm, not sure…if not, let me know…I’ll be happy to supply the details.
ypfriend, More qualified God than ‘qualified court of Torah arbitrators’ raises jesus back to life as there is nothing that holds Jesus back to say dead.
ypfriend, ” according to the eternal words of God the standard to measure a prophet is NOT a resurrection but conformance to the testimony of God’s witnesses and this Jesus failed to do”
That is your judgement but according to Daniel 12;2 resurrection belongs only to the righteous ones. If Jesus failed he should have stayed dead, yet God proved differently.
Eric Daniel 12:2 is NOT talking about a standard of measuring prophets Deuteronomy 13 is. Why do you turn to a passage that is different than the one that God would have you read in relation to this discussion?
ypfriend, Daniel 12;2 gives you the whole picture, it tells you false, wicked etc rise to eternal condemnation. That should tell you something why Jesus rises to life and not to judgement.
Dina, They record that word of the resurrection spread 50 days after the supposed event, so what is the point of a sign that you can’t see, that you have to rely on hearsay? That’s not a sign!
Jesus didn’t wait 50 days to be seen , he was seen right after being risen at the tomb. He was coming to see different people at different time in whatever places they were, either on the road, at home , in town etc. He did only what God told him to do nor ‘ serving’ peoples on request.
I didn’t say that all other miracles don’t necessarily prove a prophet is true! Where is that? It was rather what I heard from you; that no miracle prove anything!
I said that when Jesus said’ no other sign will be given but sign of Jonah’, it didn’t mean that that was to be the only proving sign but that pharisees were able to witness many other previous miracles( predicted that the Messiah would do) yet still didn’t believe.
“And you still have not proved that Jesus was justified in not fulfilling his sign to the Pharisees. He even says they don’t deserve it(..) ”
He didn’t say ‘ they didn’t deserve it.’ That is a your conclusion nowhere found.Sorry.
You ignored the fact that I presented that they were all well informed about his resurrection and why was the reason for them to bribe the witnessing guards? Why to distort the truth? No wonder Jesus called they as he did.
“If Jesus were as popular and famous as the gospels described, it’s inconceivable that no one would have mentioned him. As it is, what references there are have been proven to be later Christian interpolations.”
So that proves my point for him being rejected for a reason. Not everybody likes to hear the call to repentance and turn to God. The whole world won’t say with applause; ” what a great message Jesus ” and will do as he said, no different as with Jews telling the whole world to repent. He lived during the time where knowledge about living God among gentiles was so distorted by pagan worship of stone made gods. The gospels and epistles tell you about what it meant to be popular.
It meant to be appreciated, accepted by those who wanted to hear word of God and decided to come to him through Jesus’s message. Appreciation, thankfulness was due to fact that they were forgiven!
yes, you know every word that Pilat said… every word of his conversation has been recorded and it is not matching with gospels.. interesting Dina. Moon is really mane of cheese. I am sure you would good it supporting that, too!
As far as pharisees of jesus time, God knows their hearts not historians. And why jesus was able to had a normal conversation with Nicodemus without calling him anything alike as the others? He belonged to the same group yet his heart was looking for the truth.
I won’t respond to the first part because I saw that Con responded to it, and I don’t have anything to add to what he said. You responded to that as well, so when I get to it I will add my thoughts.
Instead, I’ll address the historical record. This is a bit difficult because your only knowledge of the time period comes from your scripture, and you haven’t studied other sources. But I’ll try to clarify, at any rate.
I argued that Jesus could not have been as famous and popular as the gospels claim or historians of the time period would have mentioned him. Your response was that of course they wouldn’t mention him because they didn’t want to hear his message. There are two problems with this.
Number one, the historians I mentioned were neither Pharisees nor Sadducees, and therefore had no reason not to report a word about such a great leader. They were not his theological enemies. They were either Hellenized Jews or Romans. In other words, they had no axe to grind, no horse in this race, and all similar clichés.
Number two, conspiracies about cover-ups of major events of history don’t hold any water. They just don’t happen. For example, in the seventeenth century a false messiah by the name of Shabbetai Zvi arose. Although the rabbis spoke out against him, he was enormously popular among the masses. People gushed about the miracles he performed (sounds familiar?). However, when he converted to Islam his popularity died.
We know about Shabbetai Zvi, his popularity, his charisma, and the opposition of the rabbis from various historical records. Although a lot of people “rejected” his message, they nevertheless recorded these events.
Your conspiracy theory that various historians who didn’t know each other and who would not have even felt threatened by Jesus’s message somehow conspired to suppress any record of the supposed events of Christian scripture is just not credible.
You wrote: “yes, you know every word that Pilat said… every word of his conversation has been recorded and it is not matching with gospels.. interesting Dina. Moon is really mane of cheese. I am sure you would good it supporting that, too!”
If you knew the history of the time period and the role Pilate played, you would be less quick to sneer. We know from the historical record that Pilate was so brutal and massacred so many Jews that even the Romans were horrified. He was stripped of his post and recalled to Rome after one massacre too many. It is inconceivable that this cruel, wanton, corrupt, dishonest official to whom Jewish lives meant absolutely nothing would have behaved the way the meek and even righteous Pilate of the gospels behaves, cowed by a Jewish mob. Inconceivable!
I don’t have to know every interaction Pilate ever had to know that the description of his character in Christian scripture doesn’t match the historical Pilate. All I need is common sense to make that deduction.
Another example is one that I believe Sharbano pointed out, and that is concerning the massacre of the baby boys. Such a tragedy on such a mass scale would not have gone unremarked by Jews. Josephus wrote tens of chapters on Herod but does not mention this massacre ever. You would think it would have been major news! Rather, it seems Matthew made it up to parallel Pharaoh’s decree to kill all Jewish baby boys to prevent their leader from growing up to save them.
By the way, if the moon were made of cheese, I would totally eat it. I love cheese!
Dina, I combined some of your messages as it is to many;
God didn’t have to wait till Jesus comes into scene to fulfill His promises about resurrection. Nobody has been resurrected to eternal life yet, till Messiah’ coming.
“I do not understand your belief that Jesus redeemed the world from death (well, not the whole world, but those who accept him).”
You do not understand that accepting Jesus means accepting God because to you Jesus is not God’s servant. Accepting the one God sends and speaks through means accepting God. Those will have life with God.
….
“[I am the One] Who forms light and creates darkness; Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Maker of all of these” (Isaiah 45:7).
My question refereed to ; is God an author of evil deciding for others to do crimes against others, like Nazi against Jews? Or do people have free will which may result in bad choices like turning to crimes against others but God may allow the situation to happen for a purpose? I expected an answer not just quotes as they may have a multiple understanding.
When God creates one thing the opposite is automatically created when you create one thing like light, you automatically have darkness where there is no light.
Where there is a mind that doesn’t follow God , you automatically have a person who does things against Him and others. But God is in control and aware of all situations not an author of a person crimes.. He may allow you to be in the hands of an oppressor for a lesson, or because of your own mistakes, but that doesn’t mean He is an author of the oppressors’ crimes. Just clarifying whether we understand it the same way. That also justifies the fact why the oppressors of God’s people are subject to God’s judgement although we read it is God who ‘ created’ that cursed situation .
…
“You have to first believe your NT in order to believe all this stuff.”
It is like saying you have to first believe OT to learn how God lead His people ( to believe it) as even those who tell you facts know them based on their previous reading.” Also NT is fulfillment of promises. You would not know whether Jesus suffered and died or not for others if you didn’t read anything. ( unless you were an eye witness.)
….
“promise of resurrection was given before Jesus ever entered the scene, and most important”
And promise of a coming redeemer was given even before the resurrection was mentioned.
Eric, you missed my point about the promise of resurrection. You believe that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected, since his sacrifice conquered the death that Adam brought to the world.
But although Adam brought death to the world, God promised resurrection at the end of days, even though Jesus hadn’t supposedly conquered death yet. We are told that the righteous will be resurrected, and we are taught how to become righteous. The Torah, as I have already said, lays out a complete path toward repentance and righteousness, leaving no room for belief in a demi-god messiah.
When I wrote that I do not understand your belief that Jesus conquered death for those who believe in him, you did not address the reason I gave for not understanding it. Instead, you wrote this: “You do not understand that accepting Jesus means accepting God because to you Jesus is not God’s servant.”
I have argued in the past that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Don’t deny it! It’s the height of dishonesty to say that Jesus did not come up with an innovation. And this innovation makes him a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13. (You argued that someone who is resurrected must be listened to no matter what; this chapter teaches that no miracle is sufficient to follow someone who contradicts the Torah.)
Also, the authority you accord Jesus violates God’s clear teachings in Deuteronomy 4–that we are to worship God only according the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. And how are to transmit this knowledge to successive generations? The same chapter teaches us that we are to do this by teaching it, father to son. God furthermore instructs us in Isaiah that beside Him there is no savior and that He shares His glory with no one.
You have yet to address Deuteronomy 4 and these passages in Isaiah. You have merely asserted in the past that God uses human agents through which to save, like Moses. You never addressed the fact that Jews have only ever viewed Moses that way–as a human tool of God’s. Once he died, we turned to the next leader to guide us, and there was never any requirement to “accept” any leader “as your lord and savior” in order to be saved. In fact, this is idolatry and forbidden. There is no parallel between the simple Jewish respect for Moses and the Christian worship of Jesus. Even if you do not worship Jesus as a god, you have made a man the focus and center of your religion. Jews have never made Moses or any man the the focus and center of their religion, God forbid!
I’m not going to address the fact that God created everything, light and darkness (clearly stated in Genesis; it does not say that the darkness was automatically created as a result of the creation of light), good and evil. God states so Himself, and it’s pretty clear. It’s a minor point, and I see no need to dwell on it.
You wrote: ” But God is in control and aware of all situations not an author of a person crimes.. He may allow you to be in the hands of an oppressor for a lesson, or because of your own mistakes, but that doesn’t mean He is an author of the oppressors’ crimes. Just clarifying whether we understand it the same way. That also justifies the fact why the oppressors of God’s people are subject to God’s judgement although we read it is God who ‘ created’ that cursed situation .”
I agree. I’m glad to find we can agree on something!
Dina, ‘Eric, you missed my point about the promise of resurrection.’
I am not insisting that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected because there might be people who repented and lived with God but never heard of Jesus. The same way like Jesus’ sacrifice is also for those who lived before him and trusted in God like David, Abraham and many others. They all associated future life after death with God’s redemption.
“But although Adam brought death to the world, God promised resurrection at the end of days, even though Jesus hadn’t supposedly conquered death yet.”
You do not understand that the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption. It is based on the servant’s justification in Is 53 which you interpret as you- -justifying us. ( in the future or so,) Jesus’ justification relates to all people who lived before him and after him. Anyways in God’s plan resurrection is not until Messiah comes to reign in his kingdom.
“We are told that the righteous will be resurrected, and we are taught how to become righteous.”
We know how to become righteous but we fail, like David, Salomon and others that’s why our justification is based on our trust in God’s grace based on listening to His voice. And if God speaks to us through his son, listening to him it is part of obeying God.
You said that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Jesus didn’t change people’s approach to God ; love your God with all your hear and mind and soul and others as yourself- is still the most important principle. All law is based on these two commandments.
There is no innovation in it. Coming to Jesus means putting God on the first place. You accept it or twist it and make it be more than it is.
As far as your accusation of him being a false prophet; you put him to death thinking this is what Jesus deserved. God showed you; He raised him back to life proving you he didn’t deserve death. God didn’t support the judgement you put him on. Torah doesn’t tell you that false prophet will go back to life afterways.
You bring things against Jesus’ words as violation to Deut 4. But examples of violation are not from jesus but based on other Christians’ approach. Jesus doesn’t teach you to put him above God. What he said about himself was being Son of God and the Messiah, the one who was sent by Father , the one who was doing what Father told him to do, and not replacing Father in heaven. So do not confuse anti-christian arguments with what is not in his teaching. And as far as Moses viewed as God’s tool via Jesus- you deny even a fact of accepting Jesus as God’s tool. And then you will still present arguments against him being God’s chosen leader because some Christians make him God. You make him Son of God and that will go along with what God said about him.
When I spoke about God being in control in the middle of evil events, I meant He is not responsible for making somebody to be evil. And that is finally clear. And that was to refer to that ‘snake/serpent debate’ . God didn’t create a smart understanding animal to fool others and then punish him for the work he( serpent) did. If God’s purpose was really to make an animal that deceiving for a purpose, the serpent would not need the judgement as his obligation was to carry on his work of ‘temptation’ and only those who bought his lies should be subject to judgement not serpent himself. So it is logical that whatever voice spoke through the serpent it was not just an animal but the spirit voluntarily opposing God and leading others to sin.
( and we call that opposition- satan ) As a voluntary opposition he deserved punishment. Anyways God being in control of that evil action allowed that situation to happen to test whether Adam chooses obeying God or obeying some other voice.
I hope that is obvious too.
Eric, your comment deserves more time and attention than I can give to it right now, but I just want to quickly comment on one point:
“I am not insisting that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected because there might be people who repented and lived with God but never heard of Jesus.”
Here you admit the possibility that one can repent and live with God without Jesus. So what gives?
“You do not understand that the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption. It is based on the servant’s justification in Is 53 which you interpret as you- -justifying us.”
No, the Hebrew Bible does not teach that the resurrection is connected to belief in a Messiah who sacrificed himself to save everyone from sin and death. Even your interpretation of Isaiah 53 doesn’t teach that one must believe in the Messiah in order to attain eternal life.
You wrote that “the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption” (emphasis added).
Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully. Always? In fact, never. Not once is the promise of resurrection ever connected with “Jesus future sacrifice and justification.” Even Isaiah 53 according to you interpretation does not connect it because that passage promises long life (in your interpretation, “resurrection”) only to the servant if he does what God expects of him. The promise of resurrection is not clearly spelled out the way it is in Ezekiel, for example, nor is it promised to everyone.
“We know how to become righteous but we fail, like David, Salomon and others.”
But repentance worked for them and it works for us too. That is what the Bible teaches.
“You said that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Jesus didn’t change people’s approach to God ; love your God with all your hear and mind and soul and others as yourself- is still the most important principle. All law is based on these two commandments.
There is no innovation in it. Coming to Jesus means putting God on the first place. You accept it or twist it and make it be more than it is.”
This is just dishonest, Eric. Not that I think you are intentionally dishonest. You are very sincere. But nevertheless this is dishonest. Why? Because we Jews already put God in the first place and the only place. We Jews already believe in the fundamental principle of “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might,” which is part of our liturgy that we say three times a day. We already accept that, as Hillel taught in the Talmud, “love your fellow as yourself” is the whole Torah; everything else is commentary.
So of course it’s an innovation to say that the complete path to repentance laid out in the Torah is not enough, that our beliefs that I just outlined above are not enough, that our Torah observance and obedience to God’s commandments are not enough, but that you also must accept another human being as your lord and savior to attain eternal life–without that everything else counts for nothing.
That is absolutely an innovation because there is no such teaching anywhere in the whole entire Hebrew Bible, even in Isaiah 53.
That is why it completely violates Deuteronomy 4 and 13 and the commandment not to add or subtract to the Law.
“As far as your accusation of him being a false prophet; you put him to death thinking this is what Jesus deserved.”
I put him to death? Are you accusing me of deicide, now, Eric? The Romans put him to death because that is what they did to messianic claimants. Such people were a direct threat to the empire. The Jews had nothing to do with it except in the imagination of the gospel writers.
“God showed you; He raised him back to life proving you he didn’t deserve death. God didn’t support the judgement you put him on. Torah doesn’t tell you that false prophet will go back to life afterways.”
I don’t believe God raised him back to life. But even if He did (which He didn’t!), God warns us that no kind of miracle can justify the introduction of a new kind of worship (and make no mistake: “I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one comes to the Father except through me” is a new kind of worship). God says that He Himself is testing us to see if He loves us (read Deuteronomy 13 again). He didn’t rule out any kind of miracle.
I tell you, Eric, you can deny it till you’re blue in the face, but if Jesus wanted his resurrection to be believed, he should have shown himself to doubters and believers alike, to the whole nation of Israel, the way that God spoke to Moses from a cloud in front of the whole nation so everyone would believe, the doubters and believers alike (Exodus 19:9). For such an important revelation, it’s fair to demand the same standard of evidence.
But such a thing could never happen because God said that our worship of Him must never change.
” And as far as Moses viewed as God’s tool via Jesus- you deny even a fact of accepting Jesus as God’s tool.”
If all Jesus did was teach the people about repentance and turning to God and saying nothing at all about himself, or belief in himself, then I would have no problem with him. But even non-Trinitarian Christians like you give him way more authority than any human deserves, making him the only way to God, something not taught anywhere in the Hebrew Bible and thus an innovation in worship. Jesus, a mere man, is the center and focus of Christianity. God and only God is the center and focus of Judaism.
But having said all that, of course Jesus is God’s tool. We all are, in some sense. Although, not in the sense you might think.
As for your snake argument, it’s a whole lot of hooey. You have taken the text and given it a meaning that is simply not there. The Torah doesn’t teach a word of what you said. I still think it’s bizarre for Christians who did not receive the Torah from God to tell those who did how to understand it. It takes a lot of hubris, my friend.
Dina, You said “in reality this blog tries to ward off Christian missionaries by explaining and defending our position”
You might be defending your position and Christians will do as well, as either side will be sure they are right. The point of defending our position is to show you that there was a need for God sending His son and it has nothing to do with somebody feeling attacked ( so we write back).
So your conclusion is wrong that Christians get indignant or feel attacked and threatened. I am not sure here who is more insecure, the one who gives doubts to what he believes, or the one who is sure his faith is stable and built on solid ground so it doesn’t crush under somebody’s words.
I do not need more amount of evidence as God as I have evidence in God’s word and God is capable to prove His words are true he said about His son. We are given peace and we are given His spirit that we belong to Him ( which jesus said will happen after coming to God) . This so called ‘ redemptive experience’ which is undeniable to everybody who came to God and believed Jesus is His son. If I have peace with God I suggest others to worry and focus on evaluating themselves and not to worry about me. Simple.
“To grow, one must always be open to the possibility that he is wrong. ”
Are you saying that about yourself? Would you accept possibility for Jesus being the Messiah? It doesn’t look like.. but we have to be open he might not be the one we think …hmmm. suggesting one sided openness?
Then you said “no Christian has been able to meet this standard( of yours) in proving Christian doctrines” Or there might be a possibility that your interpretation of facts is not always seen with how God made it to be. let’s list examples; based on Is 53 justifying others can be Jesus or the nation, In Gen3 crushed head of the serpent can mean being wounded while conquering the enemy of God’s people or it is just a message of ‘inconvenient wild animal encounter’ , at Passover ; the sacrifice of lamb and marks of blood might be just as God’s way of sense of humor to tease Egyptians or a sign and indication of price paid for being saved from God’s judgement ( which applies to being saved from God’s judgement in general. Sacrifices can be a sign of price involved in removing our sins or just bloody ritual with no deeper purposes whatsoever. If God is love then there is His grace, but God is also justice so there has to be price paid.) The list can go …
“Do you have a standard of evidence, barring miracles, revelation, and other supernatural events?” It is continued in TN that you reject so why are you even asking?
You made some sarcastic comments about my one-sided open-mindedness, that I should expect you to be open to the possibility that you are wrong but that I am not open to the possibility that I might be wrong.
You should not be so quick to make assumptions about other people.
In my early adulthood, I was troubled by the question that I was an observant Jew only because I had been raised to be one. I had to find the truth for myself, and I started at the beginning. Since all the religions of the world contradict each other on fundamentals, then either only one of them is true or none of them are true. That was my starting point.
When I came to Christianity, I was surprised at how quickly it unraveled. If you accept the Torah as false, Christianity is false; if you accept the Torah as true, Christianity doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in its light.
It was this experience that got me reading a lot about Jewish history, Christian anti-Semitism, and Christian-Jewish polemics in general.
I believe that complacency (what you call peace with God) is dangerous because it stops you from growing. There are always higher levels of truth to attain, you can always deepen your human relationships, and you can always strengthen your connection with God. You’re not done until you die.
You wrote: “Then you said “no Christian has been able to meet this standard( of yours) in proving Christian doctrines” Or there might be a possibility that your interpretation of facts is not always seen with how God made it to be. let’s list examples; based on Is 53 justifying others can be Jesus or the nation, In Gen3 crushed head of the serpent etc.”
I don’t think you know what I mean when I say a clear and direct teaching. I don’t mean a passage that can be interpreted. I mean a passage that is so clear that its meaning cannot be disputed. Here is an example of what I mean:
“You shall not murder.”
That is clear and direct.
“You shall believe in the Messiah and accept him as your lord and savior in order to live forever” would be a clear and direct teaching. Okay?
All the teachings that we present from the Hebrew Bible, such as Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33, the Ten Commandments, are clear and direct teachings in contrast to the highly unclear and highly disputed passages that you presented that not even all Christians agree on the interpretation. But no one, neither Christian nor Jew, disputes the teachings I just cited.
That’s the standard. If God commands it, I will try my best to follow it.
Dina, “the Sabbath is an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people, and there is one group of Jewish people that has never stopped observing the Sabbath: ”
Can you prove that nobody ever stopped in that ‘chain’ ?
As you said Sabbath is a sign; not to be just for the sake of being ‘ between’ people and God but a sign for a reason to point to something; taking time of relationship with God.
When Jesus said he is the lord of the Sabbath, it means he is an author of restored relationship with God and peace with God through his sacrifice for us. So we can enjoy that relationship with God any time every day. I have nothing against keeping Sabbath a set day apart especially for God only ( even Jesus didn’t call people to give it up) but observing it doesn’t indicate somebody does it for relationship with God but he may just do it because of a tradition. That’s why I say; no preserved chain and no denomination that is better than the others.
“Eric Its not a matter of judging the people if they are righteous or not – it is a matter of determining which testimony is God talking about when He calls Israel His witnesses. What does God mean when He says to follow His Law – which group of people are the repository of His truth.”
Those whom you call ‘ repository of His truth’ and God’s witnesses also need restoration according to Isa 49. And I do not have a problem with God’s messiah ( Jesus) being that rest- orator. All nations will be attracted to his knowledge and teaching ( Is 11)
“Dina, “the Sabbath is an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people, and there is one group of Jewish people that has never stopped observing the Sabbath: ”
Can you prove that nobody ever stopped in that ‘chain’ ?”
Before I answer your question, when I say “group of people” I never mean every single person in that group. Of course people in that group fell away from observance–and were lost to the Jewish people, tragically–but there was always a core that remained. I don’t know why whenever I say group of people you think I mean every single individual.
But I can’t believe you even asked, and I hardly know where to begin.
First, are you disputing God’s word? God says that the Sabbath will be an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people. Eternal means forever. It means the Jewish people will never stop keeping this commandment. Do you take God seriously? Or are you only interested in what He has to say if you can twist it to support your theology?
Second, are you so ignorant of history that you are really unaware that the historical record shows an unbroken chain of observant Jews? Observant Jews wrote books in just about every generation, their gentile contemporaries wrote about them–can you really ignore the weight of historical evidence?
Third, do you think I sprang out of nowhere? I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai. Who do you think the Jewish people are, Eric? A modern group of people who appeared in the twentieth century?
Finally, here’s a fact that you refuse to acknowledge but the historical record proves it and the statistics prove it. Every single Jew today, whether secular or observant, is descended from Orthodox Jews. And that has always been the case. That is why I keep saying that even Christian writers of Jewish history have observed that rabbinic (or Pharisaic or Orthodox) Judaism is the only form that has been able to survive physically and spiritually.
Man, I’m shaking my head, Eric. If you wanted to prove the moon were made of cheese, you would ignore all evidence to the contrary!
You wrote: “As you said Sabbath is a sign; not to be just for the sake of being ‘ between’ people and God but a sign for a reason to point to something; taking time of relationship with God.”
Actually, the Torah gives us a reason for the sign. See Exodus 31:13 and 17; Deuteronomy 5:15.
“Those whom you call ‘ repository of His truth’ and God’s witnesses also need restoration according to Isa 49.” We already explained that the righteous remnant will restore the rest of Israel to God.
Dina,
“Number one, the historians I mentioned were neither Pharisees nor Sadducees, and therefore had no reason not to report a word about such a great leader. ”
For those to whom Jesus was not theologically related, he was just a fellow who died without a purpose of his teaching and no reason to be mentioned.
“For those to whom Jesus was not theologically related, he was just a fellow who died without a purpose of his teaching and no reason to be mentioned.”
Eric, you missed my point about Shabbetai Zvi. When a phenomenon like that occurs, whether people have a theological investment in it or not, they record it. History doesn’t ignore things like that. Or else you have to believe that Jesus’s case was unique. Other charismatic leaders who promised the world and failed spectacularly made it into the news, but everyone ignored Jesus. Really, if you wanted to prove the moon were made of cheese…
Dina, Nobody ignored Jesus. God made it possible that NT is read all over the world in every almost language and country unlike the books of other charismatic leaders known only to a certain group. (if even so) And even before the print was so available like now that you print any book you want to in thousands, God made it possible that all about jesus preserved till now and didn’t die out with one of European plagues , wars or disasters , neither among persecuted believers in every century..
{God made it possible that NT is read all over the world in every almost language and country}
Really???
You ignore your own church history. It was spread by the sword of the church, and its heavy-handedness. Xtians like to put a nice face on it. Believe or Die was the motto. By the same token they misrepresent Isaiah 53. We can say the same thing about Islam. In that church zealotry they DID try to destroy Jewish knowledge, with their book (Talmud) burnings etc.Xtians like to play nice today, and forget the past, except when it suits them, as here.
Sharbano, NT is printed all over the world without killing anybody and accepted by people who themselves pay price for their faith and are persecuted in many Asian countries if they want to believe in Jesus.
Mine was in reference to History. The church expanded throughout the entire world by the sword. It’s how America was founded.
The church didn’t go into all these countries to sit down and teach the pagans but stole their gold and murdered the lot of them.
I saw a debate in Canada with a Rabbi, a Xtian, and a Canadian Indian of some nationality. She described what happened to her people, and it wasn’t all that long ago. The church people came to their communities and forbade them their culture and forced the conversion of their entire people. She was So offended by their actions and the loss of their culture, which she was trying to reinstate, that she actually despised Xtians.
The American Indian is another example, of what happens to those who don’t accept a Xtian god. I’m not all that learned in their culture but from everything I can gather there is nothing essentially pagan in their culture. If this is the case what would happen to them. Interestingly, the first Xtians took one look at them and thought They were demons running around.
Eric Jesus is not part of the Jewish Bible – its not a matter of choice he’s not there. Smith is part of the book of Mormon – which is as meaningful to my community as the Christian Scriptures.
Eric The Christian Scriptures were NEVER the “Jewish Bible” – they are the books of one particular group of Jews – the same standard that tells us that the Jewish scriptures are God’s word tells us that the Christian Scriptures are not – by the way – Mormons would tell you that the book of Mormon is as authoritative as the Christian Scriptures and should be considered as such except for the fact that establishment Christianity made it “alien”
Dina, “in the seventeenth century a false messiah by the name of Shabbetai Zvi arose. Although the rabbis spoke out against him, he was enormously popular among the masses. People gushed about the miracles he performed (sounds familiar?). However, when he converted to Islam his popularity died. ”
Unlike all the others they were not resurrected to eternal life with God like Jesus.
Popularity of jesus didn’t die with his going to the Father ( in heaven). God hears people’s prayers in Jesus name, which includes acknowledging Jesus as God’s son and what God has done through him. Through Jesus , criminals are able to come to God and repent and take a turn in their lives toward relationship with God they never had. They ‘experience’ forgiveness, Jesus message still changes their lives. It is not just empty words and memories.
Eric, Daniel 12:2 makes no such declaration that only the righteous rise! It says some will Awake to Everlasting life, OTHERS TO EVERLASTING CONTEMPT, the implication being that even the wicked can rise to life, but to everlasting contempt. Again, revelation 13 also says that the anti Christ of you Christians will say he is G-d, suffer a deadly wound, and be healed, tricking all nations. Your claim here then is soundly refuted, even by your own belief system.
Con, “Eric, Daniel 12:2 makes no such declaration that only the righteous rise!”
When I am talking about everlasting life for the righteous ones I mean life as a reward , life free of death, life with God to forever enjoy God. So I am not talking about those who will wake up to EVERLASTING CONTEMPT, or condemnation. They will suffer judgement not enjoying God.
There is a difference between a reward and condemnation. I though it should be obvious to you.
You said according to revelation anti-christ will say he is G-d, suffer a deadly wound, and be healed, tricking all nations. Then you go;
“Your claim here then is soundly refuted, even by your own belief system.” REALLY? What is refuted here? Anti-christ as a tempter and distorter of God’s word will be PRESENT temporary in God’s plan in the end times for a reason, but he is not to live forever! Read revelation what is his end! Rev 20;10 terrible judgement is his end not everlasting life with God!
You are like a leaves in the wind. Whatever direction the wind blows you are there.
Con, I will make it clear “anti-christ is not to live forever!” by that I mean forever to enjoy life. Everlasting judgement and everlasting reward- life are two different things!
And when we talked about jesus as being risen back to life as a righteous one he was not risen to life of everlasting judgement but to life with God and reigning with Him.
I would suggest that if J’sus’ resurrection is valid then by rights he should have appeared to others in subsequent generations. He has been silent since the text was written.
In Jewish Tradition Elijah has visited various Rabbis in subsequent generations, so why not J’sus.
That’s a meaningless distinction. How do you tell the difference between a true ressurection, and a false messiahs ressurection? The claim and miracle itself proves nothing.
Con, “If a false teacher can rise in a fake way, how do you distinguish the true from the false?”
How can you rise to life in a fake way? You either do or not. You are either back alive or not. Don’t you???
The only message on deadly- wounded anti-christ deceiver is in Revelation it is a message that is clearly stated. All details predicted. No surprise, only to those who don’t want to know God. God tells you what will happen and how that person will act and end up. If you know the scriptures you can’t be mistaken. Th e false prophet is not said to go to God but act on earth and then end up in judgement.
You are missing my point Eric. It is only You Christians who are the ones saying to everyone on planet earth that there is one person, Jesus, who is G-d, who you say that we must accept his teaching, or perish and be punished eternally just for saying no.
You want all the nations to accept the changes in the times and in the Toeah as taught by the Church. Shavuot is ditched for pentacost, Passover ditched for Easter, Christmas, etc. You want us to place our trust in “the son of man” for salvation. The Tanakh contradicts literally each of thiese teachings one by one and says explicitly that the sons do not die for the fathers, nor fathers for sons, but each for his own sin shall die. The Tanakh clearly and unambiguously teaches that G-d the father does not share his glory, and also tells us to “trust not in the son of man in whom there is no hope.” Your Jesus is your own NT scripture’s picture of the false messiah (a man believed by all the nation’s because he rose from a deadly wound, who changed set times and the law, and who set himself in G-d’s temple, and said I am G-d, requiring on pain of death that people accept him. Jesus was just a Jew, not G-d.
What is proved Eric is that while Christianity teaches that Jesus’ ressurection proves his legitimacy, the same book in revelation says that a ressurection miracle proves nothing. You Christians also teach that the messiah must be G-d himself, and must be worshipped, when your own book tells you to be weary of people who make this claim. So, all your “proofs” are inconclusive. Just because a guy raises from death and says he’s G-d doesn’t make it true.
“Co, Just because a guy raises from death and says he’s G-d doesn’t make it true.”
you go by your own theory. He doesn’t rise to life and says’ I am God” He says he goes to his Father which is God. Read the scriptures instead commenting others.
Eric, I’m not going by my theory alone, but by well established ancient Christian traditions about a false messiah who claims he is G-d, coupled with a straightforward reading of chapter 13 of your own book of revelation. You have claimed that only the righteous can be resurrected to life, and this is only by G-d’s power. The NT itself says that this isn’t true. false teachers like your anti Christ can claim the exact same claims, and do lying miracles to prove their point and rise after a deadly wound. Judaism does not accept the premise that G-d takes on human form, nor does Judaism grant that a ressurection proves anybody’s legitimacy as a prophet. Ergo, we will not be fooled by a liar who says he is G-d or allegedly raises to life in order to “prove” himself. You say that anti messiah doesn’t raise to “eternal” life, but that’s an irrelevant distinction, because your own text says that he manages to fool everyone in the world because of a ressurection from a deadly wound. After this, the nations accept him as G-d and worship this false one by taking his mark. If It’s enough of a falsehood to fool all nations, that’s the point at issue. Judaism doesn’t grant the premises at all that miracles like resurrection prove a prophet, due to Halacha. The Sinai revelation is what proved Moses’ prophecy, not his miracles. Just look at the history of human beings worshiping other men as divine. Caesar, Pharoah, Hindu faith, the Greeks (Antiochus Epiphanies literally in Greek called Ἀντίοχος Δ΄ ὁ Ἐπιφανής, Antíochos D’ ho Epiphanḗs, “God Manifest”)
It is a fact of the Jewish bible that G-d is not a human being. Christians violate this central concept of Torah, namely, the distinction between creator and created in their veneration of Jesus.
My point Sharbano, is that the Christian’s own religious texts warn Christians about the dangers of holding those kinds of beliefs (such as belief in a person’s deity because he allegedly rose from the dead,) ideas that they hold to be most essential when it’s their Jesus. If it’s their Jesus, they say it’s completely ok and biblical, but if it were anyone else claiming it, it’s a lie. The Tanakh by contrast teaches that ANYONE who claims he is G-d is a liar. No man is G-d, only G-d is G-d. The King of tyre thought he was a divine being, G-d had to take him down a peg.
Con, you are distorting our truth sooooooooooo muuuuch here by
” that the Christian’s own religious texts warn Christians about the dangers of holding those kinds of beliefs (such as belief in a person’s deity because he allegedly rose from the dead,) ideas that they hold to be most essential when it’s their Jesus. ”
Our text claim that fact, but who claims it? Jesus! After risen back to life. Just think logically what you said! It is Jesus who gives the warning! So where is his lie? If jesus lies , that means there is no danger , no possibility of anti-christ. You twisted yourself in your facts -manipulation.
Con, You simply do not understand the purpose of Jesus coming. Moses died himself and needed a savior himself. If Moses is sufficient so why the need for the Messiah?
Sharbano, ” If the S’tan can be a serpent then why not.” I would rather say; if Satan can speak though others ( like serpent) then why not.
But if serpent can be that smart and know God’s will and understand exactly what death is after never experiencing it which would be an abstraction to anybody who never saw a dead one after being just created, hmm that snake’ wisdom is just overwhelmingly excellent. Just a simple encounter with a simple snake but what a smartness! I wonder if all of them do understand so much but can’t just express it as they can’t talk anymore…
Con, “You are missing my point Eric. It is only You Christians who are the ones saying to everyone on planet earth that there is one person, Jesus, who is G-d, who you say that we must accept his teaching, or perish and be punished eternally just for saying no.”
Or you say ;Christians do this or that
Listen to the scriptures not what others say. Jesus didn’t tell you to replace passover with Easter and buy an Easter bunny, come on! He didn’t tell you bring a St Clause while celebrating Jesus; birthday!
Jesus didn’t come to change the law , times, offerings and didn’t set in the earthly temple and messed up .- ( what you wrote) the but he came to fulfill the law. You are far away from the truth.
I’m not messing up your sources, I’m quoting your own sources, with your own theologians to back me up, and showing how Christian words and deeds are contradictory. 2000 years of Christians telling Jews they don’t have it right, yet Jews aren’t the ones who replace biblical holidays with nonsense, or who say a man was G-d. It’s just ironic that your own book tells you to be careful of people who claim divinity.
God said in Deuteronomy 18 to listen to such a prophet.
The only question is whether or not he is the prophet referred to or not. The Christian Scriptures say yes. You say no.
If you don’t believe him to be the prophet then you shouldn’t listen to him. But don’t tell others they are violating the Hebrew Scriptures because they do.
Con, “If Jesus said to fulfill the Torah, why are you here to take Jews away from Torah?”
Show me where on that blog did I tell anybody” leave your Torah away!”???
I am trying to show them that Jesus is truly God’s son and servant.
Con,
“if he were a servant, why must he be worshiped served, etc. you are adding to the Torah by tacking Jesus onto things.”
Jesus came as a servant to did for peoples’ sins. But In the kingdom to come when he is ruling he will be serves as a king is served.
Didn’t you read that all nations will serve the messiah? ( Is 11) Worshiped is your added statement here. I would suggest not adding something that isn’t there. Nobody is asking you to worshing Jesus so speak in your own name.
But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” instead of G-d’s redemption from Egypt. How is that NOT changing the Torah, or “law” as Xtians want to put it.
Sharbano ” But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” instead of G-d’s redemption from Egypt. How is that NOT changing the Torah, or “law” as Xtians want to put it. ”
Jesus said he didn’t send himself but God . So all is owed to God – the whole redemption process.
“But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” Redemption of Egypt didn’t need slathering of a lamb and blood shed . Ask yourself whether God could carry people out without anything.? Sacrificed lamb was for a sign that there was price paid for the freedom .
That’s why jesus is called the lamb of God as he had to die for our freedom from bondage of sin that led us to death.
Con, “Eric, I’m not going by my theory alone, but by well established ancient Christian traditions about a false messiah who claims he is G-d, coupled with a straightforward reading of chapter 13 of your own book of revelation. You have claimed that only the righteous can be resurrected to life, and this is only by G-d’s power. The NT itself says that this isn’t true. false teachers like your anti Christ can claim the exact same claims,?” I already answered you to that yesterday.
You are using Jesus words to prove that, so we have even more reason to trust Jesus. He gave us the warning.
Con, you were from the beginning on either side or no side- as far as I remember starting that Jesus can be Messiah and at the same time he was not and many similar strange statements. But then you argued with ypfriend that that redemptive’ experience’ of followers of jesus is undeniable. Now you claim that Jesus even didn’t exist or was a liar according to you. It is hard to figure you out!
Jesus did exist. He was a 1st century Torah teacher. He, like other people and messiah claimants has been deified by his students. I do not hate Jesus, nor the ethical standards that he taught, but to necessitate that people acknowledge Christian theology and Jesus as the only way to the father/messiah contradicts the plain meaning of the Torah. Even if there was somehow a messianic dimension to Jesus’ life (in that through him the bible reached many nations, Muhammad did the same for many nations too.) Christian theology has tacked on added ideas, foreign influences, and anti Torah ideology. If Jesus was pro Torah, than why can’t you leave Jews alone to obey the Torah.why do you insist on mediation through Jesus? The minute you necessitate Jesus, you have changed the way that Israel understood G-d from their fathers, which is to contradict Torah.
Con,
“Eric, what lies? Yes, your new testament claims Jesus is the word of G-d. (John 1:1) that he rose from death, etc. but your revelation chapter 13 proves that even FALSE TEACHERS AND MESSIAHS CLAIM THIS TOO! THIS PROVES ITS NOT A TRUSTWORTHY CLAIM IN AND OF ITSELF. ”
me; but revelation is a book given from Jesus . Do I have to repeat it many times as you do not see. Is Jesus speaking against himself there???? Revelation gives you more details than just possibilities of false prophets to perform miracles.
In all the examples you listed from Revelation you ignored that message. It is Jesus who is giving the warning. And he is not giving a warning against himself. but that’s how it looks like according to your theology. Also according to your understanding he is representing a group of the same false prophets who are speaking against each other. No different than what the Pharisees accused him for , doing all works through the power of a devil. And what did Jesus answer them? The kingdom that works against itself will fall apart. There was no way he was doing his works with devils’ power
( kicking off other demons).
Back to your comment;
I just skip all verses you wrote as it is long just focus on some ;
” And there was given unto him a mouth speaking GREAT THINGS and BLASPHEMIES; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”
My question; what blasphemies AGAINST God did Jesus say?? According to book of Revelation the blasphemies are pretty wrath and cruel nasty words against God .
“6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.”
Con, please list me all Jesus’ blasphemies against God’s name, tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven”
Where are the examples of Jesus “sitting in the temple of God”
Examples when Jesus says he is ABOVE God?
Give me examples of Jesus OPPRESSING HIS OWN PEOPLE and speaking against the Most High, changing the set times.
“There is no warning about people claiming to be deity? Are you nuts? ITS RIGHT THERE! Just read it!”
Does any of these examples in Daniel and Revelation tell you false prophets will be resurrected after 3 days , bless people , pray for people, heal others and go to the Father in heaven???
They can call themselves deity they end up in deadly judgement not resurrection unlike Jesus.
You listed examples from Revelation I wonder why I skipped some;
“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” The Lamb which is Jesus.
This verse tells you clearly that all who are against Christ will believe the beast’s lies.
By the way- I repeat it again. it is Christ who the message is from.
Con,
“What about G-d’s warning to the Prince of tyre who claims he is a divinity?”
Was Prince of Tyre resurrected to confuse him with Jesus?
Is that description of jesus’ death?
Ezek 28;18
“By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.”
Con,con
“G-d promised a prophet LIKE Moses G-d said nothing about replacing Moses or the Torah of Moses. ”
Replacement of torath is in your misunderstanding. Jesus’ call was’ love God and your neighbor as yourself. This is what all the law is based on. Does he( Jesus) contradict his own words?
“By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides? The fact that you even have to ask this question Eric shows how off the path you are man. The only reason you even know about noachides, or the Ger, (righteous non […]
I guess you confused me with someone else. I do not see what are you referring to by your statement and I do not remember that conversation with me.. And do not try hard. You can’t crush my faith.
You wrote these words to Con: “And do not try hard. You can’t crush my faith.”
Why do you think that Con, or anyone else here for that matter, is trying to crush your faith? All we are doing is defending ours.
Talk about crushing, you ought not to ignore the crushing weight of 2000 years of history, during which time the Jews alone among the peoples and cultures of Europe resisted the message of Christianity, though not through lack of Christian effort. The forces of Christianity tried mightily to crush the faith of Jews, sometimes through persuasion, forcing Jews to listen to sermons, but mostly through force.
Even when Christians abandoned their crude and cruel methods of attempting to crush Judaism, they still can’t leave Jews alone. Christians aggressively and actively target the Jews for proselytization. That is why this site exists. It’s ironic that you feel there is an effort to crush your faith, when in reality this blog tries to ward off Christian missionaries by explaining and defending our position. While it’s a blessing that we can speak our minds freely and without fear, I find it strange that the moment in history that we finally get the chance to answer back, Christians get indignant or feel attacked and threatened. Is it because of insecurity? I can’t figure it out.
That’s the first point.
The second point about asserting that your faith can’t be crushed is that you are in effect admitting that no amount of evidence can make you change your mind. This is, in my view, a dangerous perspective to hold because it closes your mind to hearing and evaluating other ideas in any honest and objective way.
To grow, one must always be open to the possibility that he is wrong. One must have a standard of evidence that, when presented to him, will persuade him to change his mind.
I have such a standard. My standard is this: a clear and direct commandment spelled out in the Torah. Naturally, no Christian has been able to meet this standard in proving Christian doctrines.
Do you have a standard of evidence, barring miracles, revelation, and other supernatural events?
Name one that was a contemporary of Jesus prior to AD 70 that was “deified.”
And as you know, Jesus himself was not “deified” until centuries later.
By the way while we’re on the subject of deification, your claims against the book of Revelation are without merit in that there is no warning against claimed deities. Rather there is a warnings pertaining to the anti-Christ. It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.
You are confused about where Con stands. On the one hand, you have read his comments defending belief in Jesus to the hilt. Now you are reading his arguments against belief in Jesus as the Messiah.
I hope Con will forgive me for presuming to speak on his behalf, but Con came to this blog determined to defend Christianity and to set the record straight lest any Christians be led astray by the misinformation spread by this blog. We on the side of Torah engaged him in a heated and lively debate for quite a while. But then Con confronted Deuteronomy 4, and being the honest man that he is, he saw the stark contradiction to Christianity. He has since left Christianity.
I hope that clears things up for you.
And Con, was it indeed Deuteronomy 4 that did you in? Please correct me if I got that wrong.
The Torah says anyone who changes the Torah from how it was revealed at Sinai to Israel is a false prophet.
The Torah warns against false prophets, telling us the kinds of things they will do, ie make changes in how Torah is observed.
Jesus’ movement made changes to how Torah was observed ergo Jesus was a false prophet.
To add insult to injury, your own NT (in revelation 13) says if someone claims divinity (who is not Jesus,) then they are automatically false.
I write that example because Tanakh says nobody who appears human is G-d. Your text (or Christian religious majority) amends that warning to say nobody accept Jesus is G-d.
So, I have the Tanakh telling me that changes in divine service equals false prophet, and Jesus actually making those changes proving that he is false.
Oh my goodness, then you’d have to include just about all prophets starting with Joshua and anyone and everyone who ether added to or modified the Torah as reveled at Mount Sinai.
According to the Law of Moses she should have been killed for not one but two reasons. Furthermore according to the Law of Moses her family of Canaanites (her house of all who were with her) which would have including brothers, sister, parents, aunts, uncles, and who knows who, shouldn’t have been allowed to live among the Israelites “ever since.”
Verse 26 also states that Joshua pronounced a curse before the YHWH against anyone who rebuilt Jericho. The Law of Moses never places such a prohibition on Canaanite cities of conquest. It rather requires the opposite; the destruction of the inhabitants and the living in the cities which are acquired.
According to your logic, if Moses had upheld the Torah you wouldn’t have needed God to send another.
According to Judaism’s view of the messiah, the messiah will observe Moses’ Torah impeccably and write his own copy of a traditional Torah scroll (the king’s Torah.) in Judaism who the messiah is or isn’t doesn’t change the fundamentals of Torah observance or the Jewish religion the way Christianity does. King messiah is a human being a descendant of David, a monarch, he is not divine in any sense. He does not need to do flashy miracles. If he rebuilds the temple, accomplishes regathering the tribes to Israel, and heals the breaches in Torah observance (making it followed as it was in former years,) and encouraging peace among all nations, that will fulfill the biblical idea of the messiah.
Christianity introduced tons of changes into that formula which is why Jews can’t and won’t ever believe it.
God put no restrictions on prophets other than that they not lead others to idolatry.
Furthermore, it is your interpretation that Jesus “replaced” Moses or the Torah.
Actually he said just the opposite that all will be fulfilled.
And you’d have to hold Joshua to the same standard who immediately followed Moses or any of the others who either added to or took away depending on the circumstances.
For example, you’d have to assign guilt to King David for changing the job of those who carried the tabernacle and its utensils to be singers etc. Obviously there is no longer a need to comply with the Torah instructions to carry a tent when there is no longer a tent.
Or for that matter Jews today who have changed the Torah in innumerable ways; I doubt that Moses would recognize much of what they do today.
He was allegedly “seen” by two of his followers, who the text says were frightened and ran away. (the rest of Mark after that point is recognized as a later interpolation.)
Have you ever had dreams or seen deceased loved ones, like out of the corner of your eye? If Yes, does it necessarily mean they are risen? Do you believe that huge crowds of Catholics in Egypt have seen the virgin Mary appear? Signs don’t mean anything, unless the goal of the prophecy for which the sign was given comes to pass. Also, Jesus promised the sign of Jonah to the Pharisees (his opponents), but he only allegedly revealed the sign to his students who already believed in him.
Contrast this with Moses, who did signs in front of his accusers and detractors directly to their face (on a national scale) That said, the miracles didn’t prove Moses, Moses lead Israel to G-d. It was G-d speaking to Moses on the mountain in front of everyone that vindicated and proved him. (Moses said he would deliver Israel from bondage. When he did that, when he accomplished that goal, his prophecy was proven true.)
Notice, when reading the Tanakh that Israel constantly chides Moses (even when he does his miraculous signs from G-d.) The Israelite people question Moses. (To paraphrase) “have you come here to destroy us? How will we work when Pharaoh is mad at us?”
When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters. Only after he is vindicated on Sinai (after he has already completed his task of redeeming Israel from bondage in Egypt) does he offer stern rebuke.
Con, “Have you ever had dreams or seen deceased loved ones, like out of the corner of your eye? If Yes, does it necessarily mean they are risen?”
They ( disciples) ate together, they could touch him( Jesus) , they talked together, not dreamed! It is rather logically impossible that so many people in different places would have the same ” jesus- dream” of seeing him; ( Luke 24;36-40
“While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
Then the other gospels give you another encounter; John 21 ( Jesus making fireplace and eats with his disciples.)
I am not going to list you all the ” dream” encounters , you can find them in the bible.
“When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters.” But he gets frustrated and looses his temper many times. Read the story.
This was a response to Con’s assertion that Jesus appearing to those who already believed in him is like someone seeing a loved one after they die.
Con is making a good point here. A lot of people have sighted Elvis Presley over the years, and the percentage of Americans who believe he is still alive (7%) is more than three times the number of Jews living in the United States. In other words, if the Jews are a significant minority, believers in Elvis are even a more significant minority. (I hope they’re Republicans, for God’s sake.)
Also, a lot of people have sighted Mary over the centuries, although more people seem to have seen her in medieval times than modern times. Interesting, no?
The point is: this is why it’s silly to believe someone who claims to have seen a loved one after the loved one’s death.
You wrote: “But he gets frustrated and looses his temper many times. Read the story.”
I think you missed this part that Con wrote: “When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters. Only after he is vindicated on Sinai (after he has already completed his task of redeeming Israel from bondage in Egypt) does he offer stern rebuke” (my emphasis).
Moses’s reaction to the Israelites even when they openly rebelled is nothing compared to Jesus’s anger and vindictiveness at those who don’t accept him even though he never performed the tasks that the Hebrew Bible assigns to the Messiah.
Dina, you are trying to defend Con’s view on ‘ seeing the loved ones in our dreams to support the deceiving impression about resurrected jesus. The difference is the gospels do not quote Jesus just seen ‘ in visions’ by his desperate followers , but in encounter with tomb guards, in interaction with others where many at the same time could see him, talk to him , touch him , eat with him. It was not a group hypnosis.
Another point about Pilate. Just because Pilate was portrayed as cruel etc these facts don’t prove his conversation with jesus wrong. There were more things and more people involved than just a conversation with Pilate. Also as far as documentary and history that you do not find every detail you would like to written down by historians. Are you considering the library of Alexandria as the one of the largest and most significant libraries of the ancient world that was burned down involving loss of thousands famous writings , history records etc? This fact also has to be considered. And for some reason the message of Jesus didn’t die out despite destruction, loos of recorded details , persecution.
“Dina, you are trying to defend Con’s view on ‘ seeing the loved ones in our dreams to support the deceiving impression about resurrected jesus. The difference is the gospels do not quote Jesus just seen ‘ in visions’ by his desperate followers etc.”
These stories were recorded by the faithful. Remember, the Pharisees did not encounter the resurrected Jesus, whereas God spoke to Moses in front of the whole people, the believers and the doubters.
If someone were to come along and supersede the Torah, I would expect at least the same standard of evidence.
A word about Pilate. You have a book whose portrayal of the Pharisees and Pilate run counter to the historical record. There is no reason to believe therefore that this portrayal is accurate and much reason to believe that it is not.
I do not remember who exactly wrote that NT conveys the message of hate against Jews. So I am responding here.
So I have a question. Why so many of Jews that Jesus spoke too didn’t take his message as against themselves? Why didn’t they feel hated?? Why weren’t the first disciples approached with hate before they even knew Jesus, why were crowds coming to jesus for healing and were leaving with joy and hope instead of feeling of being hated? What about thousands described in book of acts who received thee message about Jesus with joy, not hate? They were all Jews! Why did the Jewish crowds welcomed Jesus entering Jerusalem if he was to be known of spreading hate against Jews? Indeed Jesus as a promoter of hate towards Jews. He should have hated himself too as he also was a Jew.
The only group that felt hated was that small group of Pharisee that he confronted with their hypocrisy.
Also your comments about Jesus getting soooo angry and more . Read John chapter 6;32-71 to the end and tell me about his anger and hate. You add your own feelings here.
Dina I don’t think that the Christian Scriptures portray a man (Jesus) with a full fledged anti-Semitic attitude (perhaps John’s Jesus is more fully developed). Instead I see that it portrays a deep and vindictive animosity toward anyone who sees through his petty charade (much like our Eliyahu Lion) – the insecure lashing out with hatred at those who don’t see things his way – and with time this coalesced into full fledged anti-Semitism. It is not so much a dehumanization of Jews it is a dehumanization of those who didn’t fall for Jesus’ claims
I wonder how much relates to who and when that text was canonized. Clearly at that time there weren’t Jews who participated in the canonization. I believe it states that J’sus spoke so very much more, Yet, the vast majority aren’t HIS words but the words of Paul. Either they didn’t place such emphasis on HIS words, OR, maybe those other words didn’t align with a preconceived theology. I’ve always wondered what is Not in those books.
ypfriend, “It is not so much a dehumanization of Jews it is a dehumanization of those who didn’t fall for Jesus’ claims”
And his claims were all about; God’s kingdom being near, call for repentance!
Look at those who do not care about repentance in OT and tell me if God approaches them with open arms and joy.
Since you see so much hate in gospels about Jesus here are some examples;
-Jesus’ “hate” portrayed in the gospels via the Pharisees;
His is approaching repenting sinners with compassion and grace not judgement;
unlike Pharisees quick to execute judgement. While others are ready to condemn a woman caught in sin, he responds; John 8 ;7-9
“And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.(…)But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.”
Matthew 9;36 “Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited (…)”
Mark 1;40 ( healing a leper) “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, “I am willing; be cleansed.”
The list can go and go..
– Is Jesus hating Pharisees or Pharisees hating Jesus?
Matthew 12;14, Mark 3;1-6
Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might DESTROY HIM.”
There are two places in John where the Jews wanted to kill Jesus with stones. Both of these occur after Jesus spoke and made a claim about Himself. The first was in John 8:58-59, and the second was in John 10:30-33. Here is the context of both verses:
John 8:56-59, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they PICKED UP STONES to THROW AT HIM(…)
John 10:27-36, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me(…) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all(…) The Jews TOOK UP STONES again to STONE HIM.Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
John 5;15-16 ( Healing the paralyzed man)
“The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
For this reason the Jews PERSECUTED Jesus, and SOUGHT to KILL HIM, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. ”
John 9;30-34 ( healing the blind one from birth)
“The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 WE KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO SINNERS. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And THEY THREW HIM OUT .” ( the healed one by Jesus)
Jesus resurrecting Lazarus ( John 11;45-53)The Plot to Kill Jesus
” Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. 49 .Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that ONE MAN TO DIE for the people than that the whole nation perish.”(…)
53.” So from that day on they PLOTTED TO TAKE HIS LIFE.”
59″ But the chief priests and the Pharisees had given orders that anyone who found out where Jesus was should report it so that THEY MIGHT ARREST HIM.”
John 12;9-10
“Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 SO THE CHIEF PRIESTS MADE PLANS TO KILL LAZARUS AS WELL , 11 for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and believing in him.”
JOHN 19;14-15
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews. But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! CRUCIFY HIM!”Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.”
Does Jesus respond with anger and hate to those who oppose him?
Jesus doesn’t get angry because he faces Pharisees but when he faces hypocrisy, hardened hearts.
John 7;23-24 ” Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
So is Matthew 12;11-12, 14 “How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.”
The last point; Jesus dies for others, including Jews. How can he hate them?
I realize this isn’t germane to your point but I’m not alone in such suspicions. In reading that chapter 8 of John it sounds suspicious in nature. In these accounts J’sus is treated in the writing as a teacher or Rabbi. The text portrays him as one who is knowledgeable in Torah. Now, if all this is accurate, the approach they take would Not have been as one Rabbi to another. In this circumstance J’sus Should have replied to them that they are not following the prescribed methods in Torah adjudication. But the entire dialog is as if J’sus is answering a person who is NOT a Rabbi. This is just another among many occasions where the dialog just doesn’t fit a Jewish character. It is why I have contended for some time that I don’t believe the text was written by Jews.
I have also suggested this is the reason so many Xtian ministers literally prohibit Xtians from studying Talmud. In fact it used to be a severe violation for anyone to do so. If Xtians actually learned Talmud, or studied under a Rabbi for some time, they too, would have questions why what is written is in fact written. The dialog J’sus has with so many Jewish leaders reflect the same concerns. In none of the occurrences do these leaders actually Sound like Jewish leaders. I daresay if the Tannaim would have had this Xtian text they would have had a field day with it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Talmud were based upon this text it would be a thousand volumes. But the Xtian really isn’t aware of this Jewish character and therefore doesn’t see the issue with the text, whereas I see issues page after page.
I suppose in your eyes it is not dehumanizing to call people children of the devil, liars, murderers, killers of all the prophets (a baseless charge), brood of vipers, and hypocrites.
Dina, Is it evil to call a group of evil man who oppose any good work Jesus did , healing, opposing those who were healed, and showing definite hypocrisy as Jesus showed them?
Yes, they also weren’t killers but looked for ways to kill Jesus.
I thought after reading the examples you would open your eyes and not look through a defensive lenses and message of hate you are soaked with.
What you are unaware of in all those examples you gave are the factual errors of those accounts in the history of that time. You say the Chief Priests and the Pharisees got together and called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. There is NO way this could have or would have ever happened. Those who are aware of Jewish history of that time knew how far apart these groups were.
It’s understandable considering the first books of the Xtian text were written nearly a Generation After the death of J’sus. The text wants to make you Think it was contemporary, but far from it.
The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death. This is a lie peddled by Christian scripture to implicate the Jews rather than the Romans out of fear of angering the Romans according to many historians.
Dina, “The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death”
Only whose idea was to get rid of him??? Romans didn’t care as they didn’t care about God of Jews,. Read again my email about pharisees hate toward jesus with all listed conversations about plotting to kill Jesus Romans were just the executors .
If I read from the gospels about Jesus – then he must have been a false prophet. When I read about Pharisees doing this and that – then these events must have never happened. This is your approach. If so , as you admitted ‘ none of the events in the gospels ever took place” why to even want to discuss anything? If I know that Pinocchio is just a fairy tale I do not argue with people whether it was possible for a doll boy to turn into a human, or not.
The Romans didn’t care? The ROMANS DIDN’T CARE????
How much do you know of Roman history of that time. I believe Dina brought up about Pilate being recalled because of his atrocities. Even the Romans couldn’t stomach him. I once heard a person, whom I know, and found on the internet, give a lesson ABOUT Pilate. He used to try to “educate me” on Xtianity and when he couldn’t answer the many questions he finally gave up. Anyway, the Pilate lesson he gave turned Pilate into the most sympathetic person imaginable. Consider This, if Your text take this Hitler (y”s) type and makes him into a sympathetic image then How can we believe Any of the text. There’s something fishy here.
Now, compare That with the treatment of the Pharisees in the text Also with the history of that time. The Pharisees had NO authority in these matters. They were at such odds with the Roman government that someone like Pilate wouldn’t have paid them any heed. In fact, they wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans. The entire scenario is suspect. The only knowledge Xtians have of history of that time is Only what is in their texts. So how or why would any of Us believe in those writings.
I will turn the question back to you. We actually Don’t believe it so why are you here trying to convince us of its validity. It’s Not Only the events that are in question but the content also. Since you, and virtually every other Xtian, have no knowledge of Jewish Tradition you are unable to see the same issues as we do. It’s as if ALL those people recorded in the Xtian text were NEVER EVER part of Jewish Tradition. That includes J’sus followers, and the leaders, and even the history. I could put it This way. You don’t know what we know so how can you possibly overcome this disparity.
Sharbano, “The Romans didn’t care? The ROMANS DIDN’T CARE????”
I meant Romans didn’t care much about religious beliefs of yours if you didn’t disturb their business.
“The only knowledge Xtians have of history of that time is Only what is in their texts. So how or why would any of Us believe in those writings.”
No, you are under-informed. NT is not the only history for us. Everyone is able to reach to any available sources of history they want to. Josephus ‘ accounts are a witness to us too, but about it I will write later .
P.S cruelty of Pilate is well known. Well known based on the torturing tools they used and well known from the way they treated and killed Jesus.
“Dina, “The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death”
Only whose idea was to get rid of him??? Romans didn’t care as they didn’t care about God of Jews,.”
Anyone who claimed to be the messiah, the king of the Jews, posed a direct threat to the emperor of Rome. Messianic claimants were killed by crucifixion, the penalty for a political crime.
“If I read from the gospels about Jesus – then he must have been a false prophet. When I read about Pharisees doing this and that – then these events must have never happened. This is your approach.”
Because you believe Christian scripture is the “gospel truth,” it’s hard for you to get my perspective, so I will try to explain.
First, because Christian scripture is a mixture of truth, lies, and distortion, I cannot say for sure that every single event it records never happened. But I also have no reason to believe that it did. On the other hand, certain events can be shown from the historical record never to have happened.
When I argue that Jesus was a false prophet based on your scripture, it’s not because I believe he said what your scripture claims he said. My point is to show you that even your scripture damns itself by what it has recorded because it contradicts the Torah. In other words, from your scripture’s perspective, if Jesus said he would give the sign of the resurrection to the Pharisees but did not, then he is a false prophet according to the Torah. From your scripture’s perspective, if Jesus said you must believe in him to attain eternal life, then he was a false prophet according to the Torah.
Dina, “do you admit the possibility that one can repent and live with God without Jesus. ‘?
Jesus said:” If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23″He who hates Me hates My Father also.…”
People usually are encouraged to repentance by Jesus, and they would trust Him he is the Son of God. Those who never heard , can’t be required to know him. jesus is the one on whom God placed all the sin and they simply do not know that.
“Do you believe that we oppose God?” According to Jesus words; opposing his words is opposing God’s words if you know he is the Son of God that you do not care about. If you do not know who jesus is it is between you and God. I do not judge.
Dina, “Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT”
Of really does it contrast the teaching??? Wat for their need to bribe the guards who witnessed resurrection? Why not to start keeping record of Jesus with the events like they were?
No, because his resurrection would convince too many he truly was the one he claimed to be; so let;s change the story to the a ‘stolen body’. Matthew 28
I am not surprised they had no business in keeping any memories of life of jesus.
Contrary to that ‘ fairy tale’ that didn’t happen according to you; Josephus had something different to say in that matter.
To answer together your other email about sabbath sign. You understand me wrong. I do not question whether it is God’s sign between Him and His people but question whether the Sabbath keeper( a person) has to be called a righteous one just because he keeps the Sabbath.
That’s why I showed you examples from Isaiah chapter 1 that it is not so. God doesn’t say that those whom he speaks about are not being His people but will address the things that are not right even among those who keep the sabbath. And many fell short by their actions and not because they DID NOT keep the Sabbath. You seem to mix righteousness with a sign and being God’s people. My kids will always be my kids and our ‘sign’ is we all live in the same house and our DNA that confirms we belong to each other. But that doesn’t mean they will always act right and believe every word I say. So it is with God and his people who have a ‘sign’.
“I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..
It’s like all people having their origin; the same great- geat…..grandparents; Adam and Eve.
Sharbano, I was referring Matthew 28 to the twisted truth about resurrection of Jesus by the leaders.
v 11.15 “While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. “
eric This story makes so much sense – when guards need to get out of trouble all they need to do is tell their superiors that they fell asleep on the watch
ypfriend, “when guards need to get out of trouble all they need to do is tell their superiors that they fell asleep on the watch”
You are deciding for others , everyone would act as you expected, yes? Besides the guards ‘ problem was not feeling like being in a trouble. They witnessed the supernatural and were shocked. There is no place in such situation to fool others ‘they fell asleep’. They gave an account of what they witnessed. Read the gospel.
Eric I am just saying that the story sounds ridiculous – you could still insist on believing it – I have no reason to trust the authors of the Christian Scriptures to begin with so this story doesn’t change my perspective – All I am doing is highlighting the weak-spot in this particular story
Sharbano, this will be long as it relates to those history issues.
“I once heard a person, whom I know, and found on the internet, give a lesson ABOUT Pilate. The Pilate lesson he gave turned Pilate into the most sympathetic person imaginable. ”
So your conclussions about Pilate are just made based on somebody’s story??? That is reall surprise. You simply build on what others say. I do not see him a sypmathetic person at all and if somebody would say so I would check it up .
I looked into Jewish history by Josephus ( 4 volumes I have at home) and especially chose to read the chapter relating to that period of time of Herods and Pilate/ 1 century Jesus times). And then I compared it with what you said
” In fact, they( Jews) wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans. The entire scenario is suspect.”
Then I came accross a story in which Josehus describes the situation of Pilate bringing some images into Jerusalem , setting them without a knowledge of people by night (to avoid protesting) knowing Jews won’t approve of the images as their law forbids of making any. Then we read; ” as soon as the people found out came to Cesarea and INTERCEDED WITH PILATE many days that he would remove the images! ( are we not reading about possible confrontation???)
Then we read Pilate would not want to grant their request but people WERE PERSERVERED IN THEIR REQUEST. ( Does it look like nobody would dare to approach Pilate?) Then we read he sat on his judgement seat gathered the army yet STILL PEOPLE INSISTED’ . The text says’ THE JEWS PETITIONED HIM AGAIN!
Does it look like what you said??? “Jews wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans.” But to me it looks they would even PERSIST ON something if it was important to die for . Then we read” Pilate threatened them saying that their punishment would be immediate death if they do not leave and stop disturbing him! ” But they threw themselves into the ground ready to die saying they would rather take death willingly rather then having the wisdom of their law to be transgressed UPON WHICH PILATE WAS DEAPLY AFFECTED WITH THEIR FIRM RESOLUTION TO KEEP THEIR LAWS INVIOLABLE and gave in to their request ( by comanding the images being carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.” Josephus/ antiquities of jews , vol 4, / chapter 3.
You do not measure history by impressions. Pilate was cruel and many times he just went to kill if somebody disturbed his businnes but there were times of negotiations with him as well. And if that one encounter is described then it is obvious that Jews weren’t banned of confronting him and that wasn’t an event one in life. I would write too much, there are many similar stories , I just suggest reading the book.
Pilate gives up to the demands of Jews in this story, Pilate agrees with the leaders’ demand to crucify Jesus for exchange for Barabas ( Luke 23;23-24); Nothing suspicious and unrealistic to me.
So are there other events ( in Josephus history) mentioned confirming autentity of existence not only Jesus, but John the Baptist and James
( brother of jesus). I heard the stories that Josephus description of jesus in his writings sounds too Christian as it mentions his resurrection and Jesus being righteous wise man, so it is suggested that it was added by later Christians, yes, of course…. I skip commenting that but other fact are undeniable. He describes Herods kindgom falling apart and conclusions and beliefs of people claiming ‘ it must have been God’s judgement for Herod being guilty of beheading John the baptist who was considered as a righteous man and prophet. / Volume 4 , pg 253-6. Josephus makes also mention of his baptism and being a true prophet which agrees with the account of the gospels. And when there was baptism there was a purposes and reason of john the baptist to be at all as a fore- runner before Christ .
Pilate is also portrayed by Josephus as less quick to judgement if something didn’t bother him personally. But things that disturbed his bussines would result in quick judgement. Since Jesus was not his business I do not see a reason to say his conversation ( in gospels) was impossible to take place. Beside you judge based on a few accounts of his conversation recorded in NT. The interrogation lasted few days not ‘few lines’ of Pilate short sattement. We do not see th e whole picture of cruelty behind the curtains but we read Pilates’ soldiers ‘entertained themselves’ with their brutality toward Jesus.
Another event described by Josephus is James brother of jesus called Christ. He was stoned for his beliefs. If there was a brother of Jesus that means there was also Jesus known.
Another familiar even based on the gospels and read in the history; ” fighting and disagreements ‘ among different Jewish groups that were resulting in Romans intervention. In John 11 45-53; we read the following’
Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation. Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
So what were the Jewish leaders afraid of? Of the disturbance among Jewish groups; those who believed jesus and those who didn’t would non stop keep confronting each other and attract Romans intervention. No different then with other confrontation ( read in Jewish wars volume 1 in which Romans intervened.
I have you an Example of ONE such instance. It is a common teaching among Xtians that Pilate was a sympathetic person. That’s why This person taught the same.
Did you read all what happened in that event and what Pilate DID. That was the first encounter with Pilate. That’s why on further encounters they didn’t confront him.
Virtually every scholar agrees that the part of Jsus was added by the church. If one reads all of Josephus you find he is a methodical writer. The section with Jsus simply doesn’t fit his writing style. There is a major discrepancy between what Josephus wrote and the Xtian text when it comes to John the baptist.
The chief priests AND the Pharisees would NOT have convened a meeting in the “Sanhedrin”. Those priests were nothing but stooges of the Romans. And you expect US to believe that account.
Sharbano, you complete overlook the message that was in email. I guess you had no answers but confirm; yes, that could have happened. And you also misunderstood my message. i quoted from Josephus completely unrelenting encounter of Jews via Pilate . That story doesn’t show him sympathetic at all for the sake of Christians to prove their point. It shows his as cruel but but also allowing debating if the trouble was too big. Maybe that wasn’t happening too many times but history shows it did.
You claimed this instance of when he arrived as a proof for the Xtian rendition of Pilate. As it says there in Josephus they didn’t go to him after that.
In any event you are denying the vast majority of how Xtians teach about Pilate.
Sharbano, the event described in Josephus has no encounter of Christians and is not relating to them. You failed to see the message like it was. Without any christian help and interpretation; the text said; Pilate agreed with jews’ demand and took the images back.
Sharbano, “The church expanded throughout the entire world by the sword. It’s how America was founded.
The church didn’t go into all these countries to sit down and teach the pagans but stole their gold and murdered the lot of them.”
How was Jerusalem established? How was the land conquered ( the Promised Land??) It doesn’t mean I approve of these methods but I am just showing how it was. I am also not saying God approved of the actions of those who murdered Indians, at least today we are able to print tons of Bibles without shedding the blood.
You STILL want to make Excuses for what the church did by saying, See look at what the Jews did. It reminds of a child, who has done wrong, who says the other child did so and so.
Sharbano, I didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before I even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So I am not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.
But what about your answer? Wasn’t Jerusalem and promised land conquered with sword? Even In childish conversation the kid would also expect the answer.
“Sharbano, I didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before I even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So I am not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.”
If that is the case, then why do the Christians on this blog constantly bring up the past sins of the Jewish people, from which they themselves didn’t even suffer? They start with the baseless charge of “prophet killing,” remind us that the Hebrew prophets called us “stiff necked,” and remind us that even after God’s revelation we still sinned with the golden calf–such proof of our wickedness that of course we are blind to the truth of Jesus’s revelation.
Why are the sins of my ancestors excruciatingly relevant to you but the sins of yours should not be relevant to anyone at all?
By the way, your analogy of Christians conquering by the sword to the Israelites’ conquest of Canaan fails on two major counts.
One, God commanded His people to wipe out the inhabitants of Canaan, a commandment so difficult to carry out that in fact the Jewish people failed to fully complete the task.
God did not command the Christians to impose Christianity by force upon the peoples and nations of Europe (and other continents).
That is no small difference. Do you think the Jews should have chosen to disobey God?
Two, once the Jews sort of finished the conquest of Canaan, they stayed within the God-imposed boundaries and did not subjugate or oppress other peoples. They did not impose Judaism by force on the nations that surrounded them. After the conquest, whatever wars they engaged in were defensive wars against invaders and similar circumstances.
Christians imposed their religion by force on all of Europe, and then went out crusading, killing anyone who got in their way and also lots of those who didn’t. In fact, they went out of their way to kill Jews. God did not command this.
Christians must, for the sake of truth, confront the moral legacy of their religion. Thus far, Eric, you have resisted undertaking a study of the subject, perhaps because you “didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before [you] even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So [you are] not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.”
Not digging in a subject that leads to nothing? It leads to truth, Eric.
If you want to claim credit for the good that Christianity has done, then you must also take the blame for its mistakes.
“But here’s the biggest difference. . The harsh rebukes of the prophets are lovingly studied, and we are inspired by those words to repent.”
You are speaking here about the prophets who repented ;”The prophets included themselves in the rebuke.”
But then you have also those people who didn’t repent and those won’t be ‘lovingly studied’ by others but are rebuked even by God. Planty examples in OT.
“The Hebrew Bible is a book of internal self-criticism”
That means God didn’t say anything about anybody whoses conduct He didn’t approve? He just let you all firure things out on your own? No! The same way jesus said words against those who treated themselves as self- righteous but with hypocritical character and no need for repentance ( so that they could rebuke themselves later and be inspiration). Paul is an example who addmited his guilt and despite his curel and hating previous attitude towards Christians ( before his convertion) he is not called by jesus a hypocrite. jesus didn’t have to say anything toward those who could admit their mistakes. The attitude of self-righteousness opposing God’s ways of righteousness was what needed the be addressed with a judgement.
Eric, either you did not understand my response to David or you cannot understand it because of its implications for you.
There seems to be little point in repeating myself, but who knows? Maybe this time I will shed some light.
The target audience of the Hebrew Bible is the Hebrews.
The target audience of the Christian Bible is Christians.
The Hebrew Bible examines the flaws of the Hebrews, rebukes them for it, and holds them to an extremely high standard of behavior.
The Christian Bible examines the flaws of the…Hebrews, condemns them for it, and holds them to a double standard of behavior.
Do you see the difference? Our Bible criticizes us and your bible criticizes…us.
Christian scripture did not remain in Jewish hands, you see. It fell into the hands of Gentiles, who are treated much more gently than the Jews in the Christian scriptures. Do you see the problem yet?
The Gentiles were already predisposed to hate the Jews. They now had a sacred text that gave them good reasons for doing so, while treating them so much more gently so as to lead them to believe that they were much more righteous than the Jews. I understate the case.
I’m sure a lot of Christians don’t interpret their scriptures that way anymore, but you need to realize that devout Christians for nearly 2000 years did interpret their scriptures this way. The result was catastrophic for the Jewish people.
We could say the same thing about Jsus and the Pharisees. They were asking HIM why he didn’t follow the Tradition. Who is being self-righteous HERE. Who has the hypocritical character. What you say about those people can be said by those people about Jsus.
Dina, “Christians imposed their religion by force on all of Europe, and then went out crusading, killing anyone who got in their way and also lots of those who didn’t. In fact, they went out of their way to kill Jews. God did not command this.”
Were they Christians, according to what Jesus tough or according to their own righteousness?
Does ‘ conquering by sword ‘ and killing in the name of God sound like Jesus teaching???
Luke 9;51-57
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.
So who were the crusaders? Those who under the name of a righteous one tried to justify their evil actions contradicting what is taught in NT. But you call them Christians, because they were doing it in the name of jesus.
NT has the answer for you to that too;Matthew 7;21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and DO many mighty WORKS IN YOUR NAME ?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU ; DEPART FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS..’
Eric, you were the one who compared the forcible imposition of Christianity to the conquest of Canaan; I was merely showing you what was wrong with your argument. I suggest you read my comment again because you did not really address it.
By their fruits you shall know them. If you want to claim credit for the good ones, you’ve got to accept the blame for the bad. After all, that is the standard you hold us to. With all your pointing out our past sins, would you accept the argument that those weren’t real Jews?
You mean to tell us when ministers teach about the evils the Jews perpetrated it has no effect. I guess all the Imam’s teachings have no effect either.
You, Yourself have questioned whether or not there were ever righteous Jews throughout all this time. WHERE did you learn THAT. Your own words have condemned you and made you guilty and not a “real Xtian” according to Jsus.
Eric, Paul, David and all other Christians who are fond of quoting the Jewish Bible to prove how bad the Jews are The Jewish Bible addresses the Jewish people – not the gentiles (Psalm 147:19,20). The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness. The gentiles were given a prophet and he taught them how to look at the Jews. If you want to know how God wants gentiles to see the Jews you need to read Numbers 22,23 and 24 – that is where God shows us how He wants a gentile to view the Jewish people.
ypfriend, real nonsense! “The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness.” \
Yes, so how do you imagine all the rest of the world to know God??? How would the sinner know God can forgive him , how can He knows how God acts and is like if he never read anything about Him???? How would anyone know what happens to him after death,, what is God’s plan and purpose for the mankind? Real nonsense what you stated!!! Everybody has the same right to learn and read about God as you and learn from your mistakes if it talks about mistakes.
I wish God put a not before starting Genesis; never intended to be read be gentiles. You expect all the world coming for consultations to you regarding God and you are the only one authorized to know who God is etc. mercy… your message is REALLY pitiful!
Well, what does scripture say; Jeremiah
It shall be if they learn well the ways of My people, to swear in MY Name, as Hashem lives, just as they taught My people to swear by the Baal, then they shall be restored along with My people. But if they do not listen, I shall uproot that nation, uprooting and destroying it – the word of Hashem.
Point is, learn from Israel, not from your own readings.
Sharbano,
“What you keep ignoring is the fact that a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments.
but they will lose their Jewish identity within a few generations.”
Don’t you think God doesn’t forget who is descendant of Abraham? He doesn’t need an outside mark so He wouldn’t confuse you with gentiles. So they loose their identity before people but not before God.
“a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments” How many disobeyed commandments qualify him for being called not – righteous?
You have supported Is 53 that the righteous servant in that chapter can’t be the nation because the nation is shown paying for their mistakes.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile”, so those assimilated lose any Jewish heritage”
By “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor slave etc” Paul means that because of repentance in jesus gentile becomes a child of God and it doesn’t matter who you are. He simply says there is no difference between one child in God and the other whether one was a slave, the was free man, the other was a Jew, the other was a gentile who came to God through Christ.
“learn from Israel not from your own writings” Israel paid for their mistakes and ‘ what is called my own writings ‘ are Jewish writings about God’s grace.
Eric, what is the point of a covenant nation if they can’t be identified as such? How can a Jew follow God’s commandments to Jews if he doesn’t even know he is Jewish?
By the way, when Jews assimilate, they eventually lose their Jewishness, because Jewishness is passed only through the mother.
You wrote: ““a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments” How many disobeyed commandments qualify him for being called not – righteous?”
A Jew cannot be righteous if he willfully disobeys God’s commandments, but repentance wipes the slate clean. You wrote, “the righteous servant in that chapter can’t be the nation because the nation is shown paying for their mistakes.” You think so because you think righteousness means sinlessness; we don’t accept that definition of righteous. For there is no man who is righteous who does not sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Furthermore, this doesn’t support your interpretation of Isaiah 53, because we always see suffering as a call to repentance. Finally, the suffering of Israel in that chapter is as a result of the sin of oppression committed by the other nations. (I gave you Biblical citations for this in the last comment I wrote on Isaiah 53 which you said you will read when you have time. I am looking forward.)
By the way, punishing us for our sins is God’s business. It’s not your job to condemn us for them. Rabbi B. pointed out, if you want to know how God wants Gentiles to view the nation of Israel, then read about the incident with Balaam in Numbers.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor slave etc… it doesn’t matter who you are…there is no difference between one child in God and the other…”
Then what is the point of the special covenant between God and Israel, if there is no difference? What does the idea of a chosen nation mean, in that context?
You seem unable to understand the point being made. How can one be a descendant of Avraham if he is No Longer a descendent. This is the point.
I believe it may be in Galatians where Paul speaks of Jews being removed from the root and Gentiles taking their place.
Everyone is a child of G-d and Jsus has no determining factor in that. Everyone has that spark of G-d within them, and you may be amazed but this also includes the S’tan.
Because you think in Xtian chapters you fail to read the contextual narrative. If one is to understand “Your” chapter 53 it is necessary to start at the Start of 52. The entire narrative is about Israel being redeemed from out of the nations and their reaction to that redemption. Simple as that.
If G-d can be SO clear in his purpose as to name the man Cyrus, explicitly, and call him G-d’s Messiah, don’t you think he would have give a better indication of a man-savior than the most vaguest of attempts. You, and all the Xtians, can claim all you want about how Jsus is seen throughout Tanach but in none of these cases is there any type of direct reference to even a messiah, let alone Jsus.
Sharbano, children of Abraham are children of faith.
By the way you seem to include satan in a child of God? Then you do not really understand what it means to be God’s child.
“Everyone has that spark of G-d within them, and you may be amazed but this also includes the S’tan.” Yes, I am really amazed by your poor understanding of that.
Sharbano, but we have a free will and in that free will our desire for evil actions , and no faith in God do not make us His children. His child is the one who obeys him .
“no faith in God do not make us His children. His child is the one who obeys him.” You have a very twisted and harsh view of parenthood. In your view, parenthood is conditional. Well, I have news for you: it isn’t.
No matter how bad your children are, they are still your children. If they turn out to be utterly wicked and estranged from you, you will yearn for them to change and come back.
God is the ultimate Father. No matter how wicked a human is, he is still God’s child, created in His image. And God yearns for him to change his ways and return to His Father.
Dina, Jeremiah was talking about his times we are now 2000 + ahead with stores filled with literature about every religious subject so the message is not just spread by tales from person to person but available to everybody who only wishes to know anything about the bible; via internet, books etc, at any point.
So, do you Really think you can gain the full understanding by going to a bible store and reading some book off the shelf. It’s NO different Now then it was then. Do you know everything about the United States by reading the Constitution.
Eric, you are a very careless reader. Rabbi B. did not say that God never intended Gentiles to read the Bible. You took what he said out of context by ignoring the rest of his sentence, and I quote:
“The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness” my emphasis.
If you see the difference now, then you owe Rabbi B. an apology. If you don’t see the difference, then God help you.
By the way, yes, the Gentiles are supposed to learn how to understand our Torah from us. God gave it to us, not to you. It’s breathtakingly arrogant for Christians to tell Jews how to understand their own letters from God.
Dina,
I combined answers to multiple of your statements .
“With all your pointing out our past sins, would you accept the argument that those weren’t real Jews?”
When I say real Christians it means followers of Jesus’ teaching which doesn’t call you to hate but even pray for your enemies.
If you do the opposite and hate and kill , you do not follow Jesus, so how can that person be called Christian? He/she can have a paper that tells them ‘ you are christian, baptized in such and such church , but according to Jesus he /she is not his. ( Matthew 7;21-23)
Were the ‘bad’ Jews real Jews? According to you Jews are all those descendants of Abraham. Yes? So do they loose their ‘inheritance’ and Abraham being their great- great …grandfather because they sinned? No.
“If you accept the Torah as true, Christianity doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in its light.”
I see the opposite . It is based on torah that the price paid for sin is loss of life, ( repeated in temple ‘ ceremonies) which makes blood atoning for sins.
It is based on Torah that God will send his righteous servant to save the world, by justifying them, that means declaring them not guilty, as he willingly paid for their sins. The nation can’t do that as they themselves need repentance shown in OT.
Jesus doesn’t tell you to abandon anything. Even in Josephus ( vol 4) and James ( NT ) we read that the first century Jews were law keepers and zealous for ceremonial law that you could not tell the difference who was Jewish Nazarene( the title for the first Christians at that time ) observant and who was not. If they had no problem with understanding jesus teaching and didn’t feel forced to abandon their tradition, so can everyone and not give in in a false argument that NT contradicts Torah.
……
“It was this experience that got me reading a lot about(…) and Christian anti-Semitism”
Don’t you think it had an impact on you how you view NT? For Jews it is hard for NT to be seen as message of God’s love that He ‘saves’ the world through His servant Jesus, but it is message of hate because of those who misused Jesus words and under his name were killing throughout the centuries. Right?
….
What I meant by ‘Peace with God’ is ‘ our conviction of being reconciliated with Him” so I do not consider it ‘dangerous’ . It is God who gives peace in our hearts and not condemnation. Growing is a life process and we are never done when it comes to growing with God. So of course there are always “higher levels of truth to attain,and you can always strengthen your connection with God.” You still learn to get to know His character etc. so I agree with you.
…..
“You shall believe in the Messiah and accept him as your lord and savior in order to live forever” would be a clear and direct teaching. Okay?”
It says that you should accept what God says , turn from evil and repent and that what makes you to live forever. Since God said He will send a servant to justify us and Jesus dies for us and rose again to justify us – it is our obligation to trust God about this words.
Jesus is like with Noah story;
lets say all ( or most) people at Noah time knew Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33 or at least they knew God can forgive them.
When they saw Noah building an ark I am sure they were ridiculing that idea . Many might have been aware of the truth
( the way according to what was told later in Ezekiel 18 ) it is enough for me to turn from my evil ways and I should be fine with God, so what you doing Noah is ridiculous and doesn’t agree with God. No one before us ever needed the boat to be saved. We didn’t hear God telling US clearly from heaven we should support your idea, He didn’t tell us to board your ark so forget.
If we know that God’s statements and truth is the same for all generations , it is obvious it should be also be applicable for people at Noah’ s times. It should be just fine to conclude; we should just trust God . But God informs Noah of a ‘salvation’ way before His coming judgement will be executed and that ‘salvation’ is an ark. And the boat was really the way to be ‘saved’ from God’s judgement. So it is with Jesus as he paid for all the sins. our acceptance of it is like boarding an ark to be saved from God’s judgement.( which is explained in John 3;16-17. Jesus is not send to judge the world but for the world to be saved. And if I reject that what God provided, I reject my way of salvation.
……
“Messianic claimants were killed by crucifixion, the penalty for a political crime.”
It was not Roman’s idea to kill Jesus. They were just executors. Roman’s didn’t believe he was the messiah as they didn’t have interest in him so they had nothing to be afraid regarding their political future. They even ridiculed Jesus by putting a sign’ this is your Jewish king .
………………
“On the other hand, certain events can be shown from the historical record never to have happened.”
Like they say’ lack of evidence is not contradiction of an event. And the more they search now the more they discover of the NT details being truth.
…….
” if Jesus said he would give the sign of the resurrection to the Pharisees but did not,”
tell me where does it says jesus told them the sign means coming to them personally and showing up before their faces? When he said resurrection is the sign that means the fact of him being resurrected is the sign not the event of showing up before their faces. And according to Matthew and other gospels that evidence was not hidden from the leaders. They are described as being given an account of that supernatural event but let the truth not be accepted and twisted ( as a stolen body) so it can be forgotten so no one else would believe. And here is the answer to your statement why Pharisees had no business to carry on the news about jesus
“According to your logic, since the Pharisees hated Jesus so much of course they didn’t write anything about him”
I do not understand you way of thinking;
“since the Christians hated the Jews so much then they wouldn’t have written anything about them.” You have both believing and non- believing historians who wrote about Jews. Jews are not 1 person that you can find the reason not to write about.
Jesus was a ‘danger’ to Jewish leaders to be proclaimed as the Messiah so they did not have business in keeping’ the news about him “alive”. Did something change nowadays??? Do Jews have business to teach about jesus their kids? No, because what the reason? It is better not to bother yourself with somebody who seems irrelevant.
…..
Eric According to you there are no real Christians – Jesus taught not to get angry, not to lie, not to lust to turn the other cheek – will you tell me that anyone you know follows these without fail?
yp friend, of course not all follow that! This is a problem as the teaching itself should lead you to holy life but people do not listen. That’s why you do not blame jesus for Christan’s mistakes but look to yourself if you can follow what he said knowing this is what God requires from us; holy life ( at least as much as we can) which means life in which we love God and do not harm each other but serve each other. But it all focuses on the teaching to be blamed; “teaching is wrong because people do not follow”. That;’ how we get the criticism. How many didn’t follow what God said in OT? The same story.
Eric If the patient cannot take the medicine – then it is useless. There are two medicines offered here – that of the Pharisees and that of Jesus. You have a 2000 year case study of the effects of both of these medicines – compare.
Eric If you want to know how a medicine works you look at its effect on those who drank it – you don’t judge it by the words of the advertisers and you certainly don’t judge a medicine by the words of those who are competing with it. Why don’t you analyze the case study? No medicine that I know of has such a comprehensive case study available for all to analyze.
Eric, I urge you to take up Rabbi B.’s challenge: “Why don’t you analyze the case study?”
You remain in willful ignorance by refusing to study the history, accepting only your NT as your historical source and only a few thin books extolling those Christians who protected Jews. Don’t you think that’s biased and one-sided?
If you were really interested in the truth you would do an objective study, examining the evidence from both sides and from neutral sources (plenty of historians are not interested in condemning either religion).
There are a lot of books on the subject. You don’t have to read them all at once. But surely you can start reading, a bit here and a bit there–if you are really committed to the truth.
And then you might want to consider the following question:
How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?
Dina, “How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?'”
You are talking about me being one-sided. Look at you. Who are the followers of jesus who failed being inspired by him to set high standard? All those misused his words and never did what he said. We do not even call them his followers neither Jesus himself did. But this is how you see us the only Christians ..
How can you judge that Jesus followers who truly follow his words are less moral than Pharisees? Do you know every Christian to speak for them? Look at the new open museum of the righteous ones open in Jerusalem and tell me who inspired them to give their lives for others to save many. to the point they did?
By the way jesus said the parable about those who think too much about themselves;
Luke 18;9-14
“To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Eric Are you aware that the Pharisees taught that one cannot rely on their own righteousness? Please check out my article entitled “Not By Your Righteousness” – you can find it by using the search window on the blog
This is another case that sounds suspicious of being authored by non-Jews. There are parts of the Morning Prayer that speaks of “not being as…”. Xtians and non-Jews have used this to attack Jewish liturgy when they have Absolutely No understanding of the intent and purpose. And Once Again the evil one is the “Pharisee”. Are you beginning to notice a trend. I must say, the More you bring up the More suspicious Xtianity sounds.
Dina, “How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?”
God set the highest standard, even higher the Pharisees can reach. So how is that followers of God in OT also failed so much, after witnessing so much?? Would you blame God for that? So why you seem to blame Jesus ‘unable’ to set a high standard?
Eric We are not comparing to God’s standard – we are contrasting disciples of the Pharisees against the disciples of Jesus – one community reveres a book that highlights their own faults while the other community reveres a book that highlights and exaggerates the faults of their theological opponents – I don’t see the comparison
ypfriend, “one community reveres a book that highlights their own faults while the other community reveres a book that highlights and exaggerates the faults of their theological opponents – I don’t see the comparison”
NT wasn’t written in the middle ages to highlight mistakes of the Crusaders. It wasn’t written in the e20 century to highlight mistakes of Hitler’s followers. But it conveys universal message o all in all times; love God and follow God. If you want to read about highlighted faults of the people from NT times read epistles, Paul wrote it all and he is not dealing with pharisees as they are not a target for it’s own sake.
Eric The message of the NT is love Jesus and follow Jesus and dehumanize all of your theological opponents (they are blind, the are children of the devil) – of – there is another important lesson that the NT teaches – and that is that the Jews believe in a legalistic, materialistic self-righteous religion and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise
ypfriend, “Eric You have to judge the whole package – including the instructions If only one in a thousand knows how to drink the medicine “properly” – then the instructions were written poorly” –
How many knew how to drink from God’s knowledge properly in the OT times???? You again are blaming God . Why so many followed idols etc? God wasn’t clear enough? Neither was Jesus.
By the way bad info sells quicker. You seem to see all Christians as evil-doers towards jews. Just ‘one’ gets it right and helps the Jew . Is that what you wanted to say?
Eric You don’t have to guess what I wanted to say – I said it very clearly. You have two medicines – the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Christians Scriptures and the teachings of the Pharisees as recorded in their written works. You also have two communities – one took the medicine of the Christian Scriptures and one took the medicine of the Pharisees. – just look at the history of the two communities – each of them had saints and villains – but still the two communities don’t compare. The excuse that the community who took Jesus’ medicine did not read the instructions right – is irrelevant – if true – it just proves that Jesus didn’t know how to give instructions and the Pharisees did
ypfriend, y “The excuse that the community who took Jesus’ medicine did not read the instructions right – is irrelevant – if true – it just proves that Jesus didn’t know how to give instructions ”
You are saying nonsense again. This doesn’t make even a little sense.
The thing is ‘the hate’ is not the medicine that jesus gives but call to repentance and a message of God’s forgiveness. So all your ‘medicine story’ doesn’t make sense. You mix ‘the hate’ with what the message is really about.
You simply view Christians through the eyes of ‘ hate’ towards you Jews. You didn’t answer my question; do you view all Christians as evil doers towards Jews? You said I should know your answer. Don’t you have a courage to admit what you think? You and Con said , one gets it right way, there is not too many Christnians who got it right. You might have admit there were a few righteous ones during the war and the list is closed. But I tell you, you closed yourself in that world of prejudice towards us and NT scriptures.
I suggest you to read the other side of the history as well. Bad stories sell quicker and are better remembered but any good work fades with a time as if it never happened. Beside every single person ( that is called as a one that got it right- according to you) are thousands of people who participated in rescuing Jews which are the invisible ones to you as you didn’t hear of them. Just read Irena Sendlers story that finally came to light in 2000. She was too humble to receive any fame.Her work is not just a single righteous Christian episode that happened. Beside every single kid she rescued of a number 2500 were the same amount of Christians that took care of the rescued ones. In her work that is called only by her single name as if she worked alone are also another hundreds of people of the underground net helping to transport rescued Jews to the safe places. Behind her one name there is a group of – British Christians who organize collection of many to cover all the work done in PL to rescue Jews and drop in from the planes in an appointed place. Behind her single name work there are another hundreds who work as security to switch people and names in case somebody is caught and tortured to give away the others. And this is just irena Sendler’s story that is remembered as just one name, as if the others were asleep. Then you have a similar story with Corie ten Boom . Just a one lady in Netherlands . Did only she ‘get it right’ ? No, behind her family work hiding people at their home there is another thousand of people responsible for hiding 800 Jews in their remote places, a person per family so secure safety. Another number of people are those who take care of the papers to make the traveling/ transportation possible for the Jews not to be caught . And others to sponsor it all. The list goes on.
There are 6,532 of these single rescue workers just in Poland and nobody knows all the names of the net of co-workers that each person operated with.
If only 1 person was behind the number of 450,000 Jews rescued in that country we would have 450.000 workers but the number estimated of the ones involved in rescue is at up to 3 million. 3 million of the ‘invisible’ Christians as they had to work unnoticed as if they didn’t exist. Hardly ever Nazi would kill a Christian leader because that would not stop the work of helping Jews. They wanted to ‘break’ the leader under torturing to give out all the names of the the whole net of others that would carry on the work . They knew that behind the leader is not just one name left.
Denmark and invisible Christan work. I hope you watched a movie. The Danish resistance movement, with the assistance of many simple Danish citizens, managing to evacuate 7,220 of Denmark’s 7,800 Jews, plus 686 non-Jewish spouses, by sea to nearby neutral Sweden. How many people behind that work? Per one person or family you had to have almost equal number of people helping, funds raising was enormous to cover all operation and securing help in Sweden; transporting, feeding, sheltering, papers making, the list is endless. On the other side of the sea- Sweden- another group of Christians helping those Jews to survive. I suggest you watch a movie.
England; Nicholas Winton saving 669 kids from Czechoslovakia finding homes for these children in England- many of whose parents died in concentration camps. He kept his story quiet for nearly 50 years . He also didn’t work by himself.
Hungary; Raoul Gustaf Wallenberg with a board of hundreds of co-workers, many of them caught but saving tens of thousands of Jews in Nazi-occupied Hungary.
Every country would have a story about ‘invisible’ Christian’s work. It is just a glimpse what I put here. In every country almost every town has it’s story .And you won’t hear all the names as many were killed during in their rescue work. I suggest you read and think why why so many got it right. Did Jesus words’ change?
How about we put it this way. Xtians say their text is inspired. If Jsus is one part god and if this religion is suppose to be valid then WHY wasn’t it written better to begin with. Why didn’t Jsus make himself better understood. If the future is “known” by Jsus he should have known how centuries of Xtians would cause countless millions to die by the sword. OR, will you say that was the intent to have all these people murdered at the hands of Xtianity.
Sharbano, the same I can ask you. Why God did not write it better too , so that Jews would not sacrifice their children on the altars and pagan folks would not copy that horrible practice in the long long past ? Don’t you think God wouldn’t know that ahead? Why did He let holy wars to take place and other folks misused the idea for their evil practices as well? God’s word is God’s word, but people will always misuse it . Israel suffered long before even false Christians abused her. If not God’s words were misused then even without any words evil folks would still persecute you.
Eric I have no question that there are many Christians who would risk their lives to save others and many more who would not stoop down to the hatred of people like Martin Luther and John Chrysostom – I am not questioning that. All I am saying is that you have to judge a medicine by the effect it has on those who imbibe it – and those who did hate heavily outnumber those who didn’t over the course of history
ypf, ” Jesus is “explaining” that the reason people reject him is because they are children of the devil – as if there is no moral justification for questioning his ridiculous claims. That is dehumanizing your opponents”
No, ypf , it is not about that you can or can’t question somebody’s claims and not because of rejection they are called so. It is because of the ACTIONS Jesus judged them and called children of the devil. He spoke to a certain group who not just opposed him or had questions but a group of people who conspired evil against him and wanted to kill him although he called people to repentance and to follow God. . Like he said; “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.” John 8;39-44
He knew their evil thoughts that they desired to kill him including the one he raised back to life.
That;s why he is addressing them the children of the devil. “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth.”
I suggest you first analyze all details when you read instead of formulating such conclusions that do not carry the message that is in the text.
P.S about those who ‘claim to be Christians and hate Jews’ and outnumber the good ones. I do not call those Christians who kill,murder and hate neither Jesus does . So comparing all people as ‘Christians’ to each other that way doesn’t work.
Eric John 3:19-21 has Jesus dehumanizing people for not believing him – nothing to do with killing him As for John 8:31-47 – Jesus speaks of loving him and believing him on the one hand and not believing him, not hearing him and wanting to kill him on the other hand – there is no middle ground for Jesus – according to Jesus either you love him or you want to kill him – that is a false accusation PS – I don’t care who you call Christians – we are talking about judging a medicine and those people belonged to the community who drank the medicine
Ypf. “Eric John 3:19-21 has Jesus dehumanizing people for not believing him – nothing to do with killing him .”
Dehumanizing people ? Is God dehumanizing people when He says they should come to Him and have salvation but they still reject Him so He says they will face His day of wrath one day? Zeph 1;12-15
The same way John 3 is saying God is offering salvation to all because He gives His son for us. You do not need salvation , you are choosing no- salvation yourself.
Jesus is not dehumanizing anybody. People dehumanize themselves by rejecting God’s offer of salvation and say ‘we do not need it, we are fine on our own’.
“Jesus speaks of loving him and believing him on the one hand and not believing him, not hearing him and wanting to kill him on the other hand – there is no middle ground for Jesus ”
What middle ground are you looking for? You either believe God or not. There is no ‘stage’ between.
And your statement about John 8:31-47 is wrong base on your incorrect understanding what Jesus said
” according to Jesus either you love him or you want to kill him – that is a false accusation” Of course it is incorrect statement ; he is not saying that there is either loving him or wanting to kill him.” Desire of killing him belonged to that specific group of the leaders that he spoke to and they succeeded in that matter later about what they desired about him. ( to be executed) . If you weren’t interested in what Jesus was saying , you had also a choice to turn back and leave.
I do not care about your ‘wrong medicine’ accusations as it was not what was ‘prescribed’ by jesus to his followers to do. I do not call Assyrian’s actions towards Jews in the past as God’s medicine ‘taken incorrectly.” Call’ a medicine’ God’s words that He says to do and DO NOT assign to it a meaning of something that doesn’t exist.
On the one hand you have (G-d) who says to return to Him and on the other you have a (man) who says “believe in me”. Who do I listen to, G-d, or man. I choose G-d every time. Nowhere in Tanach, where G-d speaks directly, does He say to “believe in a man”, let alone a messiah.
Sharbano, Didn’t God use Moses when He led His people out of Egypt? God said’ I will lead you , I led you out of Egypt although He used a man. The same way He is using Jesus to guide us and Jesus is not adding anything or taking away from who God is. He is the fulfillment of God’s promises regarding our salvation why we can have eternal life and why our sins can be washed away. If I trust God about His message I also trust that His servant .
The BIG difference IS Moshe told the people they will not believe ME. It is why G-d would reveal His Presence at Sinai, to show it wasn’t Moshe. And Certainly Jsus was NO Moshe. Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.
sharbano, ” Find a place where Tanach speaks of G-d asking for Israel to return to Him and in that same place says you must believe in a human redeemer.”
There is a difference between believing in a human redeemer and believing somebody is that redeemer from God. God is showing you that His servant is paying for others for their justification. Your accepting God’s truth about it means you believe in that person being from God. This is what we call ‘believing in Jesus”. Believing somebody’s existence is not a means of salvation. Many know Jesus existed and that doesn’t mean anything. Believing means trusting God in what He accomplished through that servant for us and that equals believing God.
As far as human redeemer. God always used humans to carry on His will , even to set others free. You may call Moshe a human redeemer as he led you out of Egypt. But that doesn’t mean he takes God’s place, as without God’s will Moses wouldn’t do anything! The human redeemer will be also the Messiah as he is told to take part in Israels’ redemption. And still he is not replacing God because he won’t act out of God’s will.
As far as 59:9-12 didn’t you confuse the verses??? I didn’t speak about that chapter.
Your belief in based upon being absolved of any responsibility of what sins might have occurred. This is quite the powerful psychological opiate. It relieves a person of any guilt feelings from the sin that brought him to the religion. I don’t recall reading anywhere in the Xtian text whereby a person Has to made amends, payment, or any other forms of recompense for any past actions.
The Jews, on the other hand, believe and trust G-d Because he Spoke at Sinai, along with the signs and redemption from Egypt. When it comes to expiation of sins, if they are against anyone, the person must first clear that before any atonement on Yom Kippur. Therefore, to me, Judaism appears as a Just and righteous method whereas Xtianity allows a person to take the easy way without any responsibility and any persons harmed are of no concern.
Sharbano, during the Messianic times it is said’ God will be a King over the whole earth and the Messiah will reign as a glorious king. Does it mean there will be two kings? So whom we will have to listen to? Or what a need for two kings? Isn’t God sufficient? Yet He will still reign through a man- His messiah he spoke in various books of Isaiah and Jeremiah. What He will want to say He will say through His King Messiah, we will have to listen to his words as they will be God’s words. That’s how it is with jesus.
eric Jesus is the opposite of David David points everyone to God – highlighting his own need for God Jesus points everyone to himself obscuring his own dependence on God with his claims for divinity
Sharbano, You are trying to get away from facing the answer. Of course altar has nothing to do with drinking blood. I showed you it as an example that altar sprinkled with blood for ‘to purify it’ – if understood LITERALLY would be as ridiculous as hearing of drinking blood which is understood by you almost literally!
“Once a person goes down the road to say it is G-d’s will that a human can be a sacrifice for man, as the pagans had done, then nothing is out of the question.”
Let me ask you a question; if you were to die/ be killed and someone comes and says he will die/be killed in your place to save your life, does it sound like a pagan idea???? If you were to be hit by a car and someone jumps in front to save you and he dies it is a pagan sacrifice?
This is exactly what jesus did. He took our punishment and sins for us willingly as our punishment would be complete death.
God did not need Jesus dead for whatever purposes, neither He told us to offer him to Himself as a human sacrifice. His act was to willingly carry peoples’ iniquities.
You have a completely a wrong vision about it.
‘Do you think Jsus spoke anything new regarding adultery’
Of course he didn’t have to add anything new but he needed to give examples of what is a sin to those who thought they did not sin. You can’t speak for everybody. His message is to all people, not to some jews who ‘ won’t sit next to a woman in a bus”.
“Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.”
You are kidding. How much do you know your own bible???
Back to the same story; believing is not only knowing God spoke to Moshe. It included believing Moses concerning the words God spoke to him that included God would take care of everything water, food, etc on the desert but they complained all the time. Here you have a reason why it took them so long to get to a place they were supposed to get in a short time and why so many perished.
So revealing God’s presence is not the key to belief. God doesn’t just want you to know THAT HE SPOKE but He wants your TRUST .
“Moshe told the people they will not believe ME”
Appearing to people wasn’t even the first sign to create credibility! They already had the whole set of wonders ( God’s hand) behind they experienced.
God confirmed it FIRST with HIS MIRACLES that showed His power over the NATURE and power over LIFE and DEATH and SICKNESS.
Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you’?” Ex 4
“Then the Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?”A staff,” he replied.
The Lord said, “Throw it on the ground.”
Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. 4 Then the Lord said to him, “Reach out your hand and take it by the tail.” So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. 5 “This,” said the Lord, “is SO THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE that the Lord, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.”
Then the Lord said, “Put your hand inside your cloak.” So Moses put his hand into his cloak, and when he took it out, the skin was leprous[a]—it had become as white as snow.
“Now put it back into your cloak,” he said. So Moses put his hand back into his cloak, and when he took it out, it was restored, like the rest of his flesh.”
You analogy of someone substituting his life is ridiculous in the extreme. It has No comparative value. The analogy of one life for another doesn’t compare to one who is at the hands of punishment. Has anyone ever offered to go to death row in place of a person waiting there. THAT would be a correct analogy.
Are you admitting G-d didn’t want or require Jsus to die for the sins of mankind. Then all the proof texts, including Isaiah, doesn’t speak about Jsus at all. The “willingness” of Jsus is no different than those Jews who went into the gas chambers. As the Rabbi, and others, have pointed out that Tanach is quite specific that No One can replace another for expiation of sins. Therefore even if Jsus was “willing” it is to no avail.
My goodness, do you even Read what you paste of another comments. You copied my comment:
“Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.”
(Moshe didn’t complain!!!!) yet YOUR reply is “they complained all the time”. I spoke of Moshe and you speak of the Israelites. I made the comparison that Moshe didn’t complain but Jsus DOES complain. No wonder you have difficulty with Tanach.
Once again you are not grasping the fundamentals. Moshe knew the Israelites wouldn’t take HIS word for it that G-d is telling him all this. Moshe knew that miracles alone are not enough to sustain a nation to believe in generation after generation. If you would have studied the entire Torah you would find in Exodus 6 that Moshe spoke to Israel but they did not heed him. It isn’t until Exodus 19 that Hashem says to Moshe “Behold! I come to you in the thickness of the cloud so that the people will HEAR AS I SPEAK TO YOU, and they will also believe in you FOREVER.” It is BECAUSE G-d SPOKE at Sinai that Jews have accepted Torah from that time until today and have continuously followed that Torah. As with most Xtians you miss the finer points of Torah.
Sharbano, “No One can replace another for expiation of sins.” I “get it” ; it has to be a group death. Jesus can’t die for others but the nation can. Neither Isaiah is then about the nation; we all went astray and you were inflicted for us.” God inflicted upon you iniquity of us all’. v.6
v.11 ” My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he carries”
Sharbano, “The “willingness” of Jsus is no different than those Jews who went into the gas chambers.” The most insane statement of yours. If Jews had a choice to choose life or gas chambers , were they choosing concentration camps willingly?? I thought you were more intelligent, but that statement you put takes away so much from you.
Eric throughout history, Jews could have bent their knee to Jesus and that would have spared them the horrors of Christian love – it was often a choice if not in every instance
Sharbano, of course I copied your comment ON PURPOSE.
“Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.” he didn’t have to express his frustration aloud to the people, it was enough he heard complaining as disbelief was still there and that’s what mattered as God wasn’t ‘pleased ‘ with those who didn’t want to trust HIM.
I
Do you even realize what you’re doing. What is taking place is a “progression of thought”. Your constant feeble attempts are to take one step out of that and isolate it without any consideration for the whole.
This was all about Jsus and his complaint the people didn’t believe him. It was the same with Moshe, which he knew, and the reason G-d would reveal Himself. Your reply, therefore, is not relevant.
Eric God proved Himself – over and over again – so if you are rejecting Him you are fighting with the truth. Jesus did not begin to prove himself – so if you question his authenticity you are following the God of truth. If he condemns you for questioning him when it is the morally correct thing to do then he is dehumanizing. No one is saying “we are fine on our own” – what we are saying is that we have everything with God and Jesus cannot add on to what we already have with God. You ask me – what middle ground I am looking for – simply people who do not believe in Jesus because they were never given a legitimate reason to do so John 8:31-47 actually has Jesus talking to people who do believe in him if you believe the Christian Scriptures – it says nothing about leaders – I will take this opportunity to ask you Jim’s question – why do you care if you think I misquote Jesus but you have no problem with Matthew misquoting Isaiah? About the medicine – just do the case study – or let me word this question differently – if someone were to tell you that your child is going to be transported 1000 years back in time – but you have a choice as to which community he will land up in – what will you choose for your child?
ypf, By you misquoting jesus you make him not who he is and what he says. The message is altered to the point of making a true speaker a lair.
As far as Matthew misquoting Isaiah? I looked at the list at those that the skeptics consider being misquoted. The difference is like with the following 3 or more translations of the same verse , example;
Isaiah 40:3. They all differ but they all contain the same message;
“A voice is calling “NASB translation
“a voice rings out ” JPS Jewish translation
” a voice calls out” / Tanakh Art scroll)
“Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness;( NASB )
“clear in the desert” JPS Jewish translation,
“in the wilderness clear the way of Hashem” (Tanach Art scroll)
“Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God”. ( NASB)
“a road for the Lord” JPS Jewish translation
” make a straight path in the desert , a road for our God.”(Tanach Art scroll)
All said differently but the same message;
there will be a voice calling for a certain purpose to clear the way or make it ready for the Lord to come.
Why Matthew uses his language? The same way different translators use theirs.
In matthew 3;3 he says ;
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ said differently but THE SAME MESSAGE CARRIED
Why is jesus the only way to God?
The Bible says, “God in Christ reconciled the world unto himself” and “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (II Corinthians 5:19, 21).
He is the one by whom we are reconciled with God, by whom our sins are covered, by whom we can have our eternal life back that was lost because of sin In Eden.
I would chose the same community for my kids they are already in, where they can know God and the one God used for our redemption.
Eric Try analyzing Matthew’s quote of Isaiah 7:14 God says you can be reconciled to Him by turning to Him and to Him alone – Isaiah 55:7, Ezekiel 18:28; Malachi 3:7 – Jesus is contradicting God
ypf, ” throughout history, Jews could have bent their knee to Jesus and that would have spared them the horrors of Christian love – it was often a choice if not in every instance”
It all has to go together. You often give examples of Christian oppression to justify Jewish claims concerning Is 53 regarding the suffering. But you were not cut off from the land of the living due to the Christian oppression. ” through the sins of my people who deserved punishment”
P.S You won’t go to the Father but die in your sins if you keep rejecting His forgiveness, the way He washed you from your sins through His son. This is what Jesus saying is about.
Eric The article entitled Good, Bad and Both was written for you – please read it How does one “reject God’s forgiveness” if one trusts in God with all His heart?
As a matter of clarification. We only speak of Xtians because they have had power for 2000 years. But this doesn’t exclude all the other nations, such as Ishmael, Greeks, and others. If one looks at a map of different nations conquering lands you’ll find it is almost all the same territory. The only differences were the Far Eastern nations. China, for example, never conquered Israel. What is interesting is that both China and Japan gave refuge for the Jews during WWII, whereas the US would lift a finger because they thought they had enough Jews, and Britain, the epitome of evil, wouldn’t even allow ships to dock and sent them out to sea to drown. Britain would align with Arabs to fight against Jews in Israel, all the while Jews were fighting with Britain against Hitler y”s.
I’m certainly Not going to believe in such hogwash as a “man washing my sins”. G-d does it ON HIS OWN.
Sharbano, God doesn’t throw His words on the wind . He said atonement is in the blood. You said “I am Not going to believe in such hogwash as a “man washing my sins”. G-d does it ON HIS OWN.”
A man is not washing your sins. It is God who decides your sins are washed. The same way an animal didn’t wash your sins either at the temple , when it was offered yet God used it in a symbolic manner to point you to some better way He was to provide for you and He did.
Eric The blood spoken of in Leviticus 17:11 refers to the blood on the altar – not to Jesus’ blood. Also God said that repentance works to cleanse yu of your sins – those words don’t go to the wind either
Blood wasn’t the only method of atonement. You have a dilemma with atonement, sin etc. In the Third Temple all these will be reinstated. Apparently Jsus only works until the Temple is rebuilt.
sharbano, “Blood wasn’t the only method of atonement. You have a dilemma with atonement, sin etc. In the Third Temple all these will be reinstated. ”
You should have asked yourself a question, why even one of the method like that? That ‘method’ wasn’t deprived of ‘ repentance’ , repentance was there yet still that ‘method’ required blood. Not because God needed it! So what is the other need if not to show you the cost of sin is death? The same truth that you learn from genesis 3. If the sacrifices in the 3rd temple are to be present , they are for the same reason they were present in the first temple although you could just ‘go by repentance’ according to the scriptures. There is that one truth that is constantly repeated in the house of God.
If repentance itself was enough nobody would have to ever die. If God is promising eternal life to those who follow him, He would not have to let those die at all as they would be forgiven. So jesus is not there because God’s forgiveness is not enough. He is there so that God can raise us back to life through His son who paid for our future redemption. ( which is different than repentance)
Sharbano, once you are resurrected back to life you are resurrected to eternal life with God. While through one man death came to the world , so through one righteous one we are reconciled back with God and sins covered. No need for such a person of a second death of jesus.
This shows a marked difference between Jewish texts and Xtian texts. The true Jewish texts will highlight the failing and what is needed. There would be no purpose, in the long run, to detail all the righteous acts by the righteous.
What the Xtian text does is the opposite. It tries to lead the reader to see the Pharisee as the epitome of all evil. The only difficulty is that a Jew, knowledge and observant, will see through the facade and realize that Jsus is wanting.
Sharbano, “The true Jewish texts will highlight the failing and what is needed. ”
Yes and NT highlights you what is needed ;repentance! Turning back to God. It talks about it over and over.
ypfriend, “Eric If you want to know how a medicine works you look at its effect on those who drank it ”
Yes, drink it PROPERLY and you will know how it worked for you. You might take it wrong and will be seen as ‘sicker ‘ that before. That’;s why nobody can tell others whether it worked for them or not, only the one who took it knows what is his condition and how it improved. And I am very thankful to God for Jesus ‘that worked for me’.
Eric You have to judge the whole package – including the instructions If only one in a thousand knows how to drink the medicine “properly” – then the instructions were written poorly – especially when you have a competing medicine that did so much better over the same test period (2000 years)
Sharbano, who wanted to get rid of whom? Ask yourself a question? Jesus didn’t plot to kill Pharisees even though he didn’t see their ways righteous. They plotted to kill him. Do not tell me it was because of ;love’ .
You have just proved many of our perceptions of the Xtian text. You have used the term Pharisee as a collective and THIS is what the Xtian text has brought to the entire world.
Exactly WHEN was that written about the Pharisees. When Moshe was in the desert G-d said to him to write these words and in that way there is authenticity to the words. Jsus wanted his words to be hidden from view and the writings weren’t done for 50 – 90 years Later.
Dina, sorry but that statement can be read both ways “The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness” my emphasis.” as gentile would only use it for condemnation so better not to read it because they do not understand it .
But what condemnation do you see when we try to talk about jesus the Messiah in OT? Simply that all people are sinners both Jews and gentiles and they both need a savior and that God provided somebody who paid for our mistakes. And if you insist that ‘ it is you the nation justifying others in is 53 that is when we show you that WE ALL WENT ASTRAY … no difference! It is not to point your mistakes and condemn you!! We do not make you worst than gentiles or the opposite.
Dina, “what is the point of a covenant nation if they can’t be identified as such? How can a Jew follow God’s commandments to Jews if he doesn’t even know he is Jewish?”
God’s commandants rely on these two; love your God and love your neighbors ( that includes no harming each other etc and all the points in the law) . You do not have to be looking Jewish or not to know that. Children of God are children of faith and trust in Him. Even a Jew who doesn’t remember he is Jew can follow that, so he is not lost before God.
God’s goal in making the covenants was for Israel to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation and by that to be a blessing to others. We know that. While the nation has failed to achieve this goal it will be achieved in a future day for God is sovereign and keeps His promises. It is not because Jews are loosing their identity . In OT times there was no converts to NT teaching through which Israel would loose their identity. God is waiting for the obedient hearts and knows who is His.
Everything God promised the nation through the covenants will be fulfilled when the Messiah comes to set up His kingdom on earth and rule as “David’s greater Son” (Luke 1.31-33, 20.41-44; so Israel can fulfill its role of being a blessing. (Matthew 23.39; Romans 11.15) It is through Israel that God promised to bringing up the Messiah who will rule with iron road over the nations. It is through him that all will be restored ; Israel and being a blessing. But so far you rejected your messiah because you do not believe he is the one restoring the others not the nation.
I don’t believe you are grasping what the point is. When it comes to Xtianity if a person leaves Torah and becomes a Xtian there isn’t the impetus to marry a Jew. It is compounded when Paul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Just as it was in Ezra’ time the men took on foreign wives. Their children weren’t Jewish and had to put them away. It’s not a matter of those Jews who became Xtians in the past and their descendants NOT knowing they are Jews but rather they are NOT Jews. They have Severed their Jewish ties. There is a Rabbi at the Kotel who tells Jewish kids to be sure and marry a Jewish girl. He knows the outcome of not doing so.
Sharbano, just a question; what do you accuse messianic Jews who keep the Sabath? What makes those Jews not being Jews any more to you? What changed in them regarding keeping the law in comparing to you keeping the law? What changed I mean besides them believing Jesus is the Messiah.
Eric Keeping the Sabbath is a testimony that God is the absolute Master of all – worshipers of Jesus do not believe that God is the absolute Master of all – so their worship makes no sense. Being a Jew means being a witness to the truth of God’s absolute Mastery over all – anyone who worships another being aside from the One Creator of heaven and earth has violated the covenant between God and His people
ypfriend, “worshipers of Jesus do not believe that God is the absolute Master of all” you have a poor understanding about what we believe. Lack of words..
Eric Worshipers of Jesus do not believe that Jesus was a subject of God, worshipers of Jesus do not recognize that as absolute Master, God dictates where it is that our hearts should be devoted to and it is not our choice.
ypfriend, Jesus clearly said; ” my Father is greater than me” john 10;29 and many similar like that, he goes to the Father, he depends on the Fathers , he doesn’t do anything apart from the will of the Father, he doesn’t change Father’s ways, he leaves decisions to the Father. And he is reflection of His glory , so unless you understand who is Jesus you will know that our devotion to him doesn’t diminish the Father.
ypfriend, you do not understand what is meant here by devotion. You can’t speak for others who feel gratitude for jesus for what he has done , not understanding it . You can’t decide for others judging them whether they prize God whether not. I suggest you worry about yourself , not us.
Eric I love this – You come here to preach that we (the Jews) worry about ourselves because we don’t understand your devotion. Eric – some questions if I may – How many Jewish missionaries come knocking on your door trying to get you to change your beliefs? how many pamphlets, videos, booklets does your community receive from Jewish organizations trying to get you to redirect your devotion? How many Jewish organizations do you know of that make it their effort to try to convert Christians who are not interested in converting out of their faith? I don’t care to understand your devotion – all I know is that the missionaries of your faith tell me that my devotion is misdirected – that’s all I need to know – because my devotion belongs to One and to One alone and that is not good for the missionaries
Sharbano, where do you live, on which planet? So many churches reserved Saturdays for Sabbath sermons for messianic Jews. And by the way it is time for fellowship with God. Can you speak for others that their time with God spent is not the right way’?
You mentioned to Yisroel about anyone “who wants to know Him”, and “no hidden information”.
Here you mention so many churches reserve Saturday for Shabbat. Reserving “a day” is Not being Shomer Shabbat. Do these messianics adhere to the 39 Melachot. Not only do they Not but decry Jews for doing so. So, how can one have “fellowship with G-d” if he doesn’t do what is required of him.
Sharbano, Now you are trying to decide for others whether they can or qualify to have relationship with God. It is everybody’s personal thing between them/you and God , so judging for others not knowing their heart is pointless .
You made the big deal regarding churches who “reserve” Saturday. A person either observes Shabbat or he doesn’t. These people I spoke of Do Not. It means nothing when a person says they observe Shabbat by observing a “rest day”.
Sharbano, I do not care about ‘reserving a day’ but I am saying they wanted their Sabbath day be on the sabbath day. And do not judge based on you encounters to say that’s how they do it.
Then you cannot call it a Sabbath day. THAT has a certain definition and certain requirements. What it amounts to is a redefinition of the word. These people Chose that day because it is defined in Torah. If a person is going to “follow” Torah then it SHOULD be done According to Torah.
I didn’t bring up the point about Xtians moving their worship day to Saturday. You were making it sound like these Saturday worshipers were “keeping Shabbat”. All I have done is point out how this is Not the case. So, it’s Your problem for bringing it up in the first place. I only responded.
Sharbano, the key was to see what do you have against Messianic Jews who keep the Sabbath as you keep coming with weird arguments that they can’t be worshiping a true God because they believe jesus is their Messiah. You use these repeated phrases that they do not follow the Torah. like they do not keep the law etc They did not become lawbreakers because they believe in jesus.
And your scapegoat argument that they believe jesus is god doesn’t work here either, as many treat him as it is written ; a Son of God.
You’re still on this. If they believe that Jsus is a god then YES they are NOT worshiping The True G-d. If they do Not believe in this then that part isn’t the problem. But if they Say they are keeping Shabbat and do Not observe it according to Torah then they are Violating Torah. It is as simple as that.
I recall a Rabbi asked one of these believers that say they keep Shabbat and whether or not they light the stove and cook on Shabbat. They said, of course, we have to eat. He showed them in Torah that one is Not to kindle a fire on Shabbat. He was Unaware of that prohibition. Torah is quite specific that says one Must “prepare” for Shabbat prior To Shabbat. Since Shabbat is likened to Olam Haba and as one prepares for Shabbat, so must one prepare for Olam Haba. If one is to “observe” the day he should do it accordingly. Now, if one doesn’t Know how to properly observe it and, upon learning, does it, then all is good. As Torah prescribes, “do these”. This person, upon learning, DID change what he had done in the past and subsequently did as prescribed. There are those, though, who will scoff at such information and call it “legalistic”, “Rabbinic Judaism”. These are the rebellious ones which is spoken of.
Eric Your problem is not with me – it is with God – I quoted Scripture to back up my point you just got emotional Psalm 147:19,20; Deuteronomy 33:4; Zechariah 8:23
ypfriend, emotional? rather critical to the nonsense I heard if you meant what you meant in your previous message.
” I quoted Scripture to back up my point you just got emotional Psalm 147:19,20; Deuteronomy 33:4; Zechariah 8:23″
These verses do not back up your concept that the bible is not to be read by gentiles. Ps 147 says you were the nation God introduced his law ( what is good what is wrong) and Zechariah is about messianic times. All people are to learn what God said and are able to read and distinguish wrong from good, so they do not need a tutor to the book.
Eric Where does it say the word “introduced” in Psalm 147:19,20? Show me anywhere in the entire Jewish Bible where it says that Gentiles are to learn to distinguish good from bad by reading the Bible? By the way – what does the word “inheritance” mean? (as in Deuteronomy 33:4) – if you have an inheritance does it mean that I can have it too?
ypfriend, you make everybody stupid and yourself all knowing. We all can learn from what was written about Israel in OT. We all can learn from the ways how God led you and from your mistakes and promises of God relating the future . And the thing you reject God’s testimony in NT makes you extremely unreliable source of knowledge to follow.
Eric It is not a question of stupid or smart – the question is – who is the intended audience of this book? The book itself makes the answer to this question very clear in many different ways – you are refusing to consider the question – not on the basis of Scripture – but because you find it insulting
ypfriend, “Do you really believe that Eric? That everyone who doesn’t accept Jesus then he must be a “lover of darkness”? And that those who do accept him were “lovers of light” even before they accepted him? ”
First you have to understand what is meant by the word ‘ light’ in John. It is not just physical person of jesus. It is his words he is saying about coming to God and turning away from evil , trusting in God and following Him. And he is showing that example.
All those who do not come to that light jesus is showing them , are those who relay on their own righteousness and justify their deeds according to their own ways. And they might seem all right to them but they are not God’s ways.
John doesn’t use the word ‘ lovers of..” in the sense of being ‘ in love’ with your deeds whether wrong or good. So ‘lovers of darkness ‘ are not those who necessarily ‘love’ doing wrong ( but there are many!) but simply people relying on their own ways of righteousness as it is more ‘comfortable’ to them. Who came to Jesus’ light in the gospels? People who weren’t afraid to admit they are not perfect and that their own righteousness wouldn’t make them right with God. They realized the truth about themselves and jesus showed them that they are forgiven. The Samaritan lady in conversation with jesus found out he knew everything about her. He told her she had 5 husbands and the man she lived with wasn’t her husband. She wasn’t a ‘lover of darkness ‘ because she enjoyed doing what’s wrong. She lived the life which seemed convenient and comfortable to her that way. And after being confronted with the truth about her life she didn’t deny the details. She didn’t run away from light in which her deeds were exposed. So she came to Jesus’ light and realized ; ‘ yes this is me’ and believed him. That also didn’t mean she was a ‘lover of light’ before in the sense of ‘loving’ righteous life before. So ‘lovers of life or darkness’- as you put it – have more to do with being willing to expose yourself before God and not relying on your own deeds believing they make you righteous.
ypfriend. you can have 2 people talking and the third party can still understand what the conversation is about if you have all information exposed. The same way God is dealing with you , the same way He is dealing with others. There is no secret in any move and all what God is like He would reveal to anybody who wants to know Him. The same way He dealt with people in OT the same way he would deal with everyone who wants to know Him. No hidden information reserved only to you that others can’t learn from.
Eric Good analogy – but the third party listening in must accept that the target audience is someone other than themselves and try to understand the message with the mind-set of the target audience In this case that means understanding the mentality of the Jewish nation – and how this mentality is maintained throughout the generations
SO, because a Jew is Not a Xtian they cannot understand their own words. The problem YOU have is you have to rely, first, on translations, and second, not having all the information.
Furthermore, there is NO “G-d’s testimony” in the Xtian text. That is based upon assumptions. Nowhere in the Xtian text does it relate, “…and G-d said to (a person) saying…”
Sharbano, “SO, because a Jew is Not a Xtian they cannot understand their own words. : Nobody says you do not understand your own words.
You do not have to become a christian to understand Is 53. Even non messianic Jews see clearly the text as spoken about Jesus, they do not see themselves there
An educated Jew, in Torah AND history, WILL see that Isaiah 53 is about Israel. STILL you ignore the context that begins in 52. Not only does My Servant refer to Israel in many places but it is even More pronounced in the introduction to 53, which begins in 52.
Sharbano, God speaks directly through jesus. He put His words in His son . John 14;10 That’s why jesus is more than just a prophet and called ‘ word of God’.
Many have come and said they speak in G-d’s name only to be found false. In Torah, Moshe spoke words that G-d spoke, NOT what was in his heart. THERE is the difference. And That is why Moshe told G-d the people would Not believe in him alone. So G-d Spoke To The People. Did this happen in the Xtian text.
Eric The root cause of the evil still sits on your library shelves – if you don’t study the evil of those who taught you what to believe – you will be passing on these same mistakes to future generations
ypfriend, I am not in danger to pass anything to other generations as I do not follow others but the words of jesus who tells me NOT to hate and he doesn’t tell me to bring a sword to anybody’s neck because they do not believe.
What was the purpose of those swords. It started with the Greeks where nations attempted to sever Judaism from the Jew. Xtianity learned that method wasn’t working. Then came the burning of the books of Jews. Judaism was Not to survive. If they couldn’t destroy all the books then censoring would be a method of ending Judaism. And also came Disputations. In all, the purpose was to allow a few Jews to remain to show Xtians how the nation was cursed. Xtianity had a rude awakening when Israel was established. This was Not to happen, but it did. Even newer methods had to be employed. Nowadays there is no more hate by the sword, because this is the “love generation”. It is the “summer of love”. In all this history there is the same end result. Make Jews into Xtians. Whether a Jew dies by the sword or by assimilation the result doesn’t change. “There is neither Jew nor Gentile”, so those assimilated lose any Jewish heritage. They don’t have little Jewish children. Just as Western civilization claims a Greco-Roman heritage, that heritage hasn’t changed. It’s goal is to make everyone “Greek”, Jew and Gentile alike. Xtianity has adopted this heritage. There isn’t a sect of Xtianity, messianic or otherwise, that doesn’t aim for this goal. What kept the Pharisaic Tradition alive all this time is what is fought against, whether by sword or by love.
ypf, “Jesus is the opposite of David David points everyone to God – highlighting his own need for God Jesus points everyone to himself obscuring his own dependence on God with his claims for divinity.”
How can that statement “I do nothing on my own” John 5;19 obscure his dependence on God??
Jesus very specifically said he credited everything to the Father for everything he did or spoke . Nothing was done of his own will by God’s . John 5;19
Eric Jesus sends mixed messages – on the one hand you have statements such as those you quoted on the other hand you have statements in which he equates himself with the father. The underlying message of Christianity is that everyone “needs” Jesus. David sends no mixed messages – no one ever walked away from the Psalms thinking that this is about David – on the other hand no one ever walked away from the Christian Scriptures thinking that this isn’t about Jesus
ypf, yes all need jesus as through him God provided us His redemption. If you put ‘God’s redemption’ ‘ our atoning for sin ‘ in the place of the name of jesus you will get it while we all need it if.
Not all psalms were exceptional about david and that was understood by ancient jews whose accounts you reject, as they are too ‘Christian like for you. Many were understood as conveying messianic note, messianic application, events relating to the times of the messiah.
Eric No – Jesus makes himself an article of devotion – no “means of redemption” in the Jewish Bible is an article of devotion And you accuse me of rejecting “ancient Jewish” accounts – where did you pick up this idea? what accounts do I reject?
ypf, Midrash, Talmud is full of messianic application to certain psalms and Is 53. Do you believe them the commentaries left by the jews in the long past concerning those messianic applications? They were not all correct but they carried lots of message we know now.
Eric I teach the same – why do you accuse me of rejecting these commentaries? – I wrote about this in Contra Brown in the section entitled “what did the rabbis say?”
ypf, My “devotion” is no different than when it will be towards the king in the messianic times. jesus is never asking to put him above God , above the Father.
Sharbano, you still messed the point ‘YOU don’t want to “feel guilty” but in typical fashion YOU want the Jew to feel guilty. This is the method Xtians use to bring people to Jsus.”
I said I do not feel guilty of crimes I did not participate in; of the crimes done by others who even lived before I live. I can be sorry for what others did and condemn the actions but I can’t feel guilty for them. Is that clear?
I do not remember what that statement of your related to that we want Jews to feel guilty. Guilty of what????? If we read in NT that a group of leaders gave on Jesus their judgement and wanted him dead, It doesn’t mean I blame you or other Jews for that. I also do not blame Jews for their fathers mistakes written in OT. Everybody is responsible for their own actions. I do not put all into one sack like you do; that we all hate Jews.
You quoted me thus: “Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT.”
Then you proved my point by quoting slander of the Pharisees from your very NT mentioned above. It’s astonishing! You totally missed the point.
According to your logic, since the Pharisees hated Jesus so much of course they didn’t write anything about him, then since the Christians hated the Jews so much then they wouldn’t have written anything about them.
You have to completely ignore human nature to believe that the Pharisees hated Jesus so much that that’s why the didn’t write anything about him. Human nature is such that we can’t keep strong emotions bottled up. Certainly, a whole people for generation after generation would not be able to keep every single person from writing even one hateful word about Jesus. The reason the Pharisees didn’t write hateful words about Jesus and even the Christians who persecuted them isn’t because of their remarkable self-restraint.
It’s because they didn’t hate Jesus and even their tormentors, although by the time the Talmud was written Christian persecution of Jews had begun in earnest.
The reason Christian writings contain so much anti-Jewish venom is that their authors hated Jews.
That’s how human nature works.
The truth is, your view of the Pharisees, which you learned from your scripture, bears no relationship to actual Pharisees then and now.
About the Sabbath as a sign: I agree with you that it’s possible to outwardly keep the sign but not be following God’s ethical and moral commandments, and yes, the prophets warn us not to perform rituals with empty hearts but with hearts full of love for and service to God.
What you keep ignoring is the fact that a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments. Therefore, for a Jew to keep the ethical and moral commandments is not enough; he must also observe the Sabbath and all of God’s other commandments. (It’s also true that for a Jew to keep the ritual commandments is not enough; he must also observe the ethical and moral commandments.) I do not know why you insist that the two are mutually exclusive. One can do both, as have many Jews throughout the generations. The Sabbath is the sign God gave us as an eternal sign between us of our covenant. Nothing that you said negates this point. The ones who have faithfully observed the Sabbath and faithfully passed that observance on to their children are the ones who are the keepers of the covenant (and yes, the faithful ones observe it with their hearts; it’s not an empty ritual, not at all–and if you think so then you must not personally know any Orthodox Jews).
““I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..”
The point is–the sign works. Messianic Jews and other non-observant Jews are also descended from the Jews at Mount Sinai, but they will lose their Jewish identity within a few generations. That’s what history and the statistics (Pew Research Poll) show, like it or not.
““I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..”
I noted my ancestry in response to something else you said. I can’t remember what it was, but I think your response changes the topic.
You may Think no one wanted him alive and disparate groups would combine for such an end, but this just isn’t the case. Since you rely SOLELY on your book, in isolation, you are literally unaware of the historical accounts. The Pharisees were at great odds with the Romans, and the Sadducees were nothing short of stooges for the Empire. There would have been No unification on the account on any one individual. You assume, according to what is written in your book, that J’sus was someone who had contact with the majority of the population. According to the numbers his interactions were with relatively few people. Because of your isolated reading you are unaware of the much Greater following that Rabbi Akiva had. HE was much more influential than could ever imagine.
sharbano
“simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”
You said; It depends upon your meaning of Oppose. If that is in conjunction with questioning then there is a problem.
Questioning or rejecting what God said. If he says’ repent, you say’; no’ you oppose Him, it is logical.
That’s what jesus addressed in the gospels; opposing him was opposing God as he was not speaking in his own name but what the Father send him with. call to repentance was not his idea but God’s call.
First of all, how will one know whether or not G-d is saying repent. I see G-d’s actions virtually every day of my life and it takes on many many forms and methods. It’s not questionable because it is too apparent. The examples I heard some Xtians give is coincidental at best.
To your point. Opposing him was opposing G-d. Well, say J’sus. That’s what HE says, and WHY should we believe Him.
Everything Has to be “according to Torah”. If it is Not “first and foremost in Torah” then it has to be weighed by THAT standard. Our first writing comes from Moshe. He says G-d sent me and has to inquire of His name. He Knows, going back to Avraham, that he will be asked who sent him, being that he was raised by the Egyptians. From then on Moshe didn’t just dictate what the people were to do etc. Each and every time it is record, G-d said to Moshe, G-d told Moshe to tell the people, saying… Etc. It is the same with the Prophets. They all write that G-d told them to speak THESE WORDS. Nowhere is this found in the gospels or by Paul. All of it are their own words and none attribute it to G-d, “saying This to them”. None of it follows the Torah standard which G-d, He, Himself set forth.
Another facet comes to mind. Does J’sus EVER even ONCE say to the people. OUR Father. I only recall him saying “My Father”, as if he is speaking to crowds of non-Jews. This is an interesting matter to digest. It May shed even More light on the authorship.
Sharbano, “Does J’sus EVER even ONCE say to the people. OUR Father. I only recall him saying “My Father”,
“(…)but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'” John 20 ;17
Jesus doesn’t say ‘thus says the Lord (…)” but he says instead; ” It is written(..)”
Sharbano
“I cannot count the times I’ve heard that “believers” are Not to question these matters. To do so is to be guided by the devil, which, by the way, is a concept foreign to Judaism, but prevalent in pagan culture.”
First thing; I do not know where you take your info from about what you said; as it completely contradicts what NT says. Since when we are just to accept stuff without thinking???
All epistles are a call to learn from the scriptures, to study, to test, to check even yourself whether you really trust God. Far away from what you said.
“To do so is to be guided by the devil..” which you do not believe it exist, so how can we be guided by a spirit that doesn’t exist???
Well, maybe you need a little history. About forty years ago I decided to contemplate the Xtian texts. I bought a Bible, a well known reference one, Schoffield maybe. Anyway I studied it for a couple three years. In the evenings I would listen to a high powered station out of Mexico that played a good number of evangelists. The more I studied, the more I listened, the less it made sense. There were contradictions upon contradictions. Well I thought maybe these guys just didn’t have it right. I found several Xtian radio stations that had well known ministers. These too couldn’t seem to ever deal with questions.
Before all this, I should have mentioned, my Dad was doing contract work and did the job for a local church’s minister’s house. They became somewhat friends, for awhile anyway, and we would discuss matters and a couple of times he became literally Angry because he didn’t have answers. This is the start of where “believers are taught” comes from and continued with every subsequent ministry.
Years later I would watch televangelists mainly for entertainment. Then, a few years ago I came across a local Xtian radio station and listened for awhile. I finally became bored with it. On all these occasions my main interest was to see if anything New would be taught, or anything deeper, or even better explanation. In ALL this time nothing has changed. The same arguments that trace back to the era of Disputations are still the same. In all this time there hasn’t been a single case that I have found where any further Torah knowledge has occurred. The only change is the relationship to the Jewish community. Other than that it is the same.
There may be differences in congregations but all those I was exposed to were exactly the same.
What I said about the devil is its a Xtian idea not found in Judaism.
Eric, you don’t get it. I don’t believe any of those stories. I don’t believe Jesus performed miracles and I don’t believe the Pharisees bothered him.
I look at the big picture as it pertains to my own history: how did the various messages of the gospels affect the fate of the Jewish people throughout history?
The verses that I cited were used by Christians to fuel hatred and to justify the actions that followed from that hatred. It’s disingenuous for you to accuse me of being soaked in a message of hate. I’m trying to open your eyes to the damage your scripture has wreaked upon my people.
You are the one who refuses to actually study the history. I recommended many books that explain what took place and that are not even written by Jews or by people who are hostile to Christianity (with the exception A Moral Reckoning which was written by a secular Jew who is not sympathetic to any religion, all the other books on the list were written by devout Christians or Christian clergymen/theologians).
It’s pointless to have this discussion when you stubbornly insist on remaining ignorant of history. We can’t have an intelligent conversation if you don’t have the facts.
Here is the list again, for brevity’s sake without the subtitles:
Christian Anti-Semitism by William Nicholls
Holy Hatred by Robert Michael
The Anguish of the Jews by Edward Flannery
Constantine’s Sword by James Carroll
A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson
The Origins of Anti-Semitism by John Gager
There’s another strange thing about your references. How many demons were there among all these people. Was it a plague of demons upon the people. This sounds Really really suspicious. Not only that it seems we have a number of “Dead People” lying around. This too sounds suspicious. It’s contrary to Jewish customs.
All these miracles sound all well and good on the surface but when one examines the claims more the more they sound suspicious.
Now, in the context of appealing to a Gentile, non-Jewish audience of that time,Then one can imagine this corresponds to Their belief system. To a Jewish audience it all rings hollow. Maybe that is the reason this theology spread so fast among those Gentiles and very quickly died out among Jews. We do know who the followers of this J’sus weren’t educated. One only has to look who he chose as disciples. For some reason J’sus didn’t want ANYONE who knew their Torah. Another suspicious revelation.
Sharbano, yes, so much suspicion that you create yourself as you hate our scriptures.
P.S And the birds are also not mentioned in the gospels while people were talking outside so I guess the events’ couldn’t have taken place as birds are always a part of outdoors.( and are not mentioned)
What YOU see as hate is nothing but the issues that cannot be resolved. By your contention it would be the Rabbis of the Talmud hated Torah. There’s much in Talmud where the question is asked, Did Rabbi so and so actually say this. The Xtian, on the other hand, want to believe in all their teachings Without question. I cannot count the times I’ve heard that “believers” are Not to question these matters. To do so is to be guided by the devil, which, by the way, is a concept foreign to Judaism, but prevalent in pagan culture.
I have heard Xtian ministers teach and the best it can be described is storytelling. Have you ever been taught a Parsha by a Rabbi. OR, been in a Yeshiva setting. Those who have were astonished and taken aback. They had never seen such a thing. But that IS a part of Jewish culture. This is why you, and others, come to places like here, and become frustrated when your perceptions are not taken as is. From YOUR perspective all is well and good. There is nothing to question. It is as it is.
There is a good analogy. At a time when I would watch movies I had seen one of the Star Trek movies. It is the one where they are searching for Shaka-ri (god). The scene is this entity wants the Starship in order to leave. Well, Kirk in his usual manner, in a Jewish way, asks the question, “Why does ‘god’ need a starship”. In typical fashion, McCoy (like a Xtian), tells Kirk, “You don’t ask ‘god’ for his ID”. This entity asks Kirk, WHO he is. Again, Kirk, asks a question, “Don’t you know, aren’t YOU god”. It is through those question they find Truth. That scene highlights the Jewish approach. THIS is how we determine truth from falsehood. This entity didn’t measure up to the truth and if it’s from G-d it has withstand scrutiny.
Eric We have the book written by Jesus’ followers and we have many books written by the Pharisees. The books written by the followers of Jesus put in some compassionate and humble things about Jesus – but they dehumanize anyone who opposes him. The argument is that if you oppose Jesus that proves that you are a child of darkness, a child of the devil and blind – there is no room for honest debate, there is no respect for the moral requirement to question claims such as those presented by Jesus. The books written by the Pharisees give us a completely different picture than the one we get of the Pharisees from the Christian Scriptures – and the teachings they taught and the lives they inspired were the polar opposite of the hateful cruelty that poured out of the pens of those who revered Jesus and the Christian Scriptures. I challenge you to find one respected Pharisee teacher who spewed as much hate as did John Chrysostom and Martin Luther.
ypfriend, people can use anything against others and twist any innocent text and make it a book of hatred towards anybody they want to. You blame NT , look at OT and see how much is used from there by ignorant people for their evil purposes. Examples; Muslims and their holy wars and killings in the name of God.
Sharbano, first of all Christians do not ‘produce’ anybody. You can produce your own philosophy based on the same text and it will still differ from others or original message in the text. Every person’ decisions and actions are their own responsibility. Furthermore Martin Luther started on his own opposing the teachings of so called church fathers and doctrine of Catholic church. He brought back many things into light but still he was not following what Jesus is showing in the gospels. His antisemitism together with others so calling themselves Christians is not a product of Jesus teaching at all.
You measure Christianity based on peoples mistakes not on teaching in the gospels .
Just because a person decided to kill in the name of God it doesn’t make the Bible a false book or a source of evil.
We can ask the same why Abraham produced such people like Muslims believing that by killing jews they go to heaven? Was it what Abraham taught? No! but because they believe in Abraham and added lots of twist and disfiguration of the truth and in their religious book – it doesn’t make Abraham a source of all middle eastern evil.
Here is as example of a story when some of Jesus ‘disciplines suggest Jesus should ask for sending a fire on the town that didn’t repent. What is Jesus answer; ” good idea Peter , go ahead?????”
“And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and REBUKED THEM , and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
For the SON OF MAN IS NOT COME TO DESTROY MEN’S LIVES, BUT TO SAVE THEM . And they went to another village.” lUKE 9;54-56
DOES Jesus TEACHING SOUND LIKE MARTIN LUTHER’S?????
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” Matthew 7;21-23
The problem is you have created a double-standard, one for the Jew, and the other, a sublime one for the Xtian.
Speaking of Islam. It may very well be that They learned their violence From the Xtian. Surely you ARE aware of the Xtian presence in Arabia Before the time of Mohammed.
In any event both those religions lack a true knowledge of Torah. Both religions have a distorted view of it. Take slavery for example. Xtians believed they were following the Bible when they pursued this activity, since it IS an institution in Torah. But neither religion knows what that involves. It’s the same as “eye for an eye”. etc. G-d never intended for the nations to have that knowledge. If that were the case in past times there could be those claiming to be Jewish and no one would know. As it says in Tehillim.
He relates His words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. He did not do so for any other nation such judgements – they know them not.
Your story of James and John also rings of suspicion. It would be unlikely that any observant Jew would have suggested this. I still maintain when a text is written nearly a generation after the events it causes doubts. It would be like Torah was written After Joshua’s death.
Speaking of J’sus though
He did say, Those who are my enemies and will not allow me to reign over them, then slay them in front of me” He sounds quite radical.
Again, the same with Matthew. It was one of the LAST books written. There was an individual, James Tabor, as I recall, who actually did a study on the order of the books. When they are Read in the order written a person will find that Xtian teaching “evolved” over the years.
When it comes to the Hebrew Bible Everything that was written was written contemporaneously.
Sharbano, This is a messianic statement , it should not surprise you ;
‘He did say, Those who are my enemies and will not allow me to reign over them, then slay them in front of me” He sounds quite radical.” Zechariah 14 ; 12
Such ‘ radical action’ will take place at the deliverance of israel at the beginning of messianic kingdom.
Right now all still have time of grace , time to repent before it will be too late. And for now his call was; “pray for your enemies.”
Sharbano ” I forgot to paste it ; Zachariah 14’12 “This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.” Here you have that ‘radical’ sounding judgement you also heard from Jesus. It is relating to those future times.
“simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”
Eric, you’ve been arguing on this blog and interacting with religious Jews for a very long time. Based on your interactions with us, do you believe that we oppose God? Do you believe we are children of darkness? Is that what you are saying?
ypfriend,
“simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”
First you have to be his child to be called his child and you do not stay all the time in your ‘waywardness’ but the Father is waiting for you to repent and come back.
Right, and I would also add this: Eric said that only the Pharisees felt hated. But the real, historical Pharisees did not feel hated; they simply couldn’t care less. The problem began when the rantings of Jesus’s followers against his supposed detractors fell into the hands of gentiles who were already inclined to feel hostile to the Jews. Then these dehumanizing statements were used to fan the flames of hatred into a raging bonfire of anti-Semitism.
And, in addition. During this time he supposedly walked the earth, there were the Tannaim. If the Jewish Sages of those days all had such a hatred for J’sus they certainly would have mentioned something about it. I would think there would be many entries in Tractate Avodah Zarah.
Sharbano, I’d like to expound on your points for Eric.
The chief priests belonged to the Saduccees. The Pharisees and the Saduccees would never have gotten together to confer on anything, as they did not like and distrusted each other.
That’s why Paul’s claim that he worked for the Sadducean high priest yet was a Pharisee is really incredible, as in, not credible (not as in amazing).
Furthermore, if the Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT and continuing with the church fathers and down the centuries, who poured their venomous hate of the Jewish people into 1.5 thousand documents (according to Holy Hatred by Robert Michael).
Just google “early church fathers antisemitic” to get a sampling.
The fact is, the Pharisees weren’t self-restrained; they were indifferent. They didn’t have a thought to spare for Jesus because he really wasn’t that famous, well-known, or that big of a deal like the NT would have you believe.
What is remarkable, though, is how little hatred the Pharisaic Jews expressed toward their Christian oppressors several centuries after Jesus when things started to heat up.
sharbano, you mean Jewish ‘paparazzi’ were always present with every conversation Jesus had with a group of jewish leaders? I see… They had no advantage to proclaim all over he was possible Messiah in case somebody would believe. If the leaders themselves wanted the ‘walking evidence’ to be wiped away from this earth, including the resurrected Lazarus there was no reason for anybody to talk about his fame.
Paparazzi?? I don’t see the applicability of that term as its use doesn’t compare to the events of that time.
Maybe there wouldn’t have been all these issues if it weren’t for the church’s decision on what to include and what Not to include. In addition you are looking for understanding in the isolation of just those which are included. As a result you are “assuming” that those ‘leaders’ would want to conceal any evidence and not let it see the light of day. This is another misconception of Jewish Tradition. It just Does NOT work that way. This is why the text is suspicious. What’s recorded in your Xtian text could be argued against, as has been going on here. If there were a fear of people there would have been much written to counter what was taught. Jews don’t use ignorance as a means to an end. Ignorance breeds a falling away. We DO see WHO and the TYPE of people J’sus CHOSE for his followers. THIS, Should, be instructive. Apparently his arguments couldn’t convince the knowledgeable. As it is today. The only recourse was to attribute it to “blindness”. But this is in defiance of Torah.
Dina, Jesus had an encounter with a certain group of pharisees that opposed him in the town he was, not all nation’s ones . So others didn’t have to care.
Mr. Lion, concerning Psalms 110, I am confused why you come to the conclusion that the Melchizedek priesthood relates exclusively to jesus/yeshua/yahushuo/yahawishiwashy/whatever…I am not convinced that it refers to jesus/yeshua at all…But I have no problem with it having a Messianic connotation to it as well.
As you acknowledge, you will find in the Talmud that Abraham, King David, and even the Messiah are called as being fulfillments of this Psalm. One of the most striking commonalities between King David and Abraham is that they both “crushed kings” with the help of Hashem. This directly correlates with Psalms 110:5, which explicitly states this:
Psalms 110:5. The Lord, on your right hand, *has crushed kings* on the day of His wrath.
Now Mr. Shapira, during jesus’s/yeshua’s lifetime, did jesus “crush kings”? Was he successful in defeating his enemies? Were his enemies “made a footstool at his feet”? (Psalms 110:1) Clearly not! Your jesus/yeshua was killed and failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies outlined in the Tanach. As it stands, jesus has fulfilled none of Psalms 110 in any tangible sense. You can argue that he will fulfill it in his supposed “second coming,” but to claim that jesus has fulfilled any of this Psalm would be completely baseless as it stands…
Another oddity about your understanding about this “Melchizedek priesthood” is that you believe that jesus’s/yeshua’s bloodshed “atoned for the sins of the world.” Where in the Tanach does it state that the Melchizedek priesthood achieves atonement via the blood sacrifice? The only priesthood that was given this divine instruction that I know of was the Levitical priesthood…If you could find a passage in the Tanach which states that the “Melchizedek priesthood” achieves atonement via “blood sacrifice,” then maybe your position would make a little more sense. But as it stands, you appear to be baselessly asserting that this Melchizedek priesthood has “superior atoning power” in comparison to the Levitical priesthood, when there is nothing in the Tanach that indicates that the Melchizedek priesthood deals with blood atonement at all! I hope you will consider these concerns.
“…why do the Christians on this blog constantly bring up the past sins of the Jewish people, from which they themselves didn’t even suffer?”
My response:
Haven’t you figured out by now that I (and probably others like me) are merely responding to the self righteous hypocrisy, slander, predjudice, anti-Christianism hate propaganda, error and sometimes outright unsupportable lies written by you? And it is mostly you by the way, not others.
Have you ever seen me for example just start out for no reason with comments pointing out faults of Judaism out of the blue? No you haven’t. It’s always been you or those who behave like you (but usually you) that have made some statement in which I’ve responded showing the hypocritical nature, or prejudicial nature, or error, etc. And my reply’s (usually based on Hebrew Scripture) to your anti-Christian comments are always related to prejudice I’m countering (such as for example your latest venture into the “obsession” (your term) Christians have with life in the age to come in which they are “restricting” people from entering whereas Judaism does not (according to you)).
And haven’t you noticed that when I do this, you’re always surprised and offended that I don’t just accept your trash talk? Then you act like the offended one, demanding an apology because I bring up facts of the Hebrew Bible which you are uncomfortable with.
You want to just spew forth your hate speech unencumbered by the reality of the facts as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. So then you try to portray me as the instigator when in reality it is you who starts.
Easily over half of all of your comments are of an anit-Christianism agenda.
So it’s time to look in the mirror (which you despise I know), but how is your anti-Christian writing any different than anti-Semitic writing from extremist Christians? What gives you the right to spew hate speech against Christians and then condemn me and others for fighting back with the facts of your own hypocrisy?
This is not an argument; it’s a character assault. I presented arguments backed by either Biblical citation, historical evidence, or reason, or all three in some cases. I presented statements that you made that you failed to similarly substantiate.
Everyone knows that when you are losing a debate you attack your opponent’s character.
You don’t like the subject matter, and that is fine with me. But you also don’t have a response, and guess what? That is just fine with me, too.
David
No one is reading the Christian Bible to condemn Christians – we are reading the Christian Bible to show you how it encourages you to dehumanize those who disagree with you
Which is what David has done do me: paint me as a dishonest, hateful, bigoted, twisted, and evil person so he can dismiss my arguments. It absolves him of the moral duty to actually look at the substance of what I am saying.
I do think what governs many in the Xtian world is the part where Jews supposedly say, “upon us and our children”. This is used as an indictment against succeeding generations of Jews. Anyone who doesn’t admit this is the case is fabricating a deceit. There are just too many in too many walks of Xtianity that see these words, and all the ills Jews suffer, as being at the root. And another point, if many of these Xtians were to actually “admit” persecution ‘By the church’, by real Xtians, it would expose their Own anti-Semitism that lies just below the surface. In these times it’s just Not fashionable. It wasn’t fashionable at one time in Germany either, but when it Became fashionable virtually everyone joined the party. After the Shoah it was no longer in vogue to be against Jews in any form. All one has to do is look where we were, Then, and where we are, Now. It has once again Become fashionable in many, many places. As it was in past times, when it becomes fashionable and in vogue, there will be many who will join the party. Many times it begins with those who are the most pious. As R’ Singer puts it so well, messiah cannot, or will not come until the Jews recognize “him”. Since the Jews aren’t doing their part they are “holding up the show”. They will not wait forever for their party to start. THEN what will be the reactions by “real Xtians”.
Actually Moses got angry with the people; he struck the rock in his anger and in doing so didn’t maintain God as holy before the people for which he was punish.
Regarding his anger on other occasions:
He also smashed the stone tablets at the foot of the mountain in his anger and organized a killing by sword within the camp to punish those in the golden calf incident.
And in Numbers 16 Moses in his anger petitioned God not to listen to those standing against him, and said “Pay no attention to their offering.”
David
I looked at the scripture in my book and nowhere does it say that Moses was angry.
It does say the crowd wasn’t very happy. If I remember correctly previously Moses was commanded to strike the rock, this time he was told to speak to the rock. Why was he told to speak to he rock? The people were about to enter the promised land.
Con you are becoming more extreme. Moseh broke the tablets because carnal Israel prostituted themselves with a golden calf. Imagine a beast being worshipped like the Hindus. They broke the Covenant in a preemptive manner so Moseh full of zeal broke the tablets as a sign the New Covenant was being broken from the on-start…delaying therefore any union from the Elohim with the people…Stiff necked people used to their bondage and the pagan influences would have to earn by the hard way to obey, love and be faithful…
Eliyahu You contradicted yourself (or should I say – your “ruah holy” contradicted itself. Either admit that you made a mistake or recognize that you can’t begin to expect to be taken seriously
You apparently haven’t actually studied those events. As with most in Xtian circles you have made assumptions, possibly based on Hollywood and its complete distortion of events. But this is typical of that industry.
By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides?
The fact that you even have to ask this question Eric shows how off the path you are man. The only reason you even know about noachides, or the Ger, (righteous non Jews) is by reading the Hebrew Bible, the Torah of Moses. The whole context of the written bible, (the very time frame and historical period when it was given to the people of Israel Genesis-Deuteronomy in writing) is during the Sinai covenant where Israel was commanded to observe the statutes in all generations. There was no written Torah before Sinai, no recorded history of Abraham before the Torah was given.
Eric, what lies? Yes, your new testament claims Jesus is the word of G-d. (John 1:1) that he rose from death, etc. but your revelation chapter 13 proves that even FALSE TEACHERS AND MESSIAHS CLAIM THIS TOO! THIS PROVES ITS NOT A TRUSTWORTHY CLAIM IN AND OF ITSELF. Not just your text (revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians,) but your classical Christian theologians say this, and history proves it. Men want to be considered as though they are G-d himself and want other beings to serve them. Therefore the reason I don’t believe in your book is because the Torah contradicts that idea outright. Human beings (in appearance) or in reality ARE NOT G-d. A miracle proves nothing!
Why do I trust the Jews? Because it is their bible, it is their historical chronicle, they are the ones entrusted with the Torah and its observance, the covenant, and the law. Your apostles say the Torah points to Christ, therefore we can test that assertion from Torah. Torah is not pointing to your Jesus or to Christianity, so its rejected.
{Why do I trust the Jews? Because it is their bible, it is their historical chronicle, they are the ones entrusted with the Torah and its observance, the covenant, and the law. Your apostles say the Torah points to Christ, therefore we can test that assertion from Torah. Torah is not pointing to your Jesus or to Christianity, so its rejected.}
The answer is in Psalms 147
He relates His Words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. He did not do so for any other nation; such judgments – they KNOW THEM NOT.
Then you of all people who put emphasis on the Torah should take your direction from the Torah and not non-scriptural commentary which adds significantly to the Torah’s Noahide reference for your guidance.
Hey David, what do these verses mean to you? Numbers 11:16-17 Exodus 18:25-26 Deuteronmy 17:9-13 Nehemiah 8:8
What do you make of these verses ESPECIALLY in light of Mathew 23:1-3?
Then Jesus said to the CROWDS (who may not have followed him) and TO HIS DISCIPLES : 2 “The teachers of the law and the PHARISEES sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4
The Torah tells you that G-d himself gave some of Moses’ spirit in judgement to the judges, and that they should be followed.
It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.
Extrapolation? You mean from verses like the following.
And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: AND ALL THE WORLD WANDERED AFTER THE BEAST. (Christian commentaries say kingdoms/kings are interchangeable in this chapter.)
4 And they WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON which gave power unto the beast: and they WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking GREAT THINGS and BLASPHEMIES; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
What blasphemies against G-d will this beast utter? According to 2 Thessalnians 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he “AS God” sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that “he is God.”
Daniel tells us about a false leader too. Daniel 7:25 “He will speak against the Most High and OPPRESS his holy people and try to change the SET TIMES and THE LAWS. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.”
Do tell me how this is an extrapolation. There is no warning about people claiming to be deity? Are you nuts? ITS RIGHT THERE! Just read it!
#1
You are responding to something I didn’t write as if I wrote it. At best that is a straw-man and at worst you are being deceitful.
My actual post is copied below at the bottom of this post. As you can plainly see it says nothing about Paul and 2 Thessalonians. My post copied below is a response to your rant specifically against the book of Revelations which you falsely claim is a warning against one who claims to be God which was actually just a side issue for me. In any case, you didn’t address your baseless attack on Revelation which I exposed.
#2
The character in Daniel does not claim to be God.
Furthermore, are you now using the NT (2 Thessalonians in this case) to provide an interpretation for the Hebrew Scriptures as in Daniel as if you are a Christian? If not then why are you attempting to do so? Why are you using writings which you don’t even believe in to interpret that which you do? What makes you think you have judged either correctly?
Put up the verse in Daniel which claims to be God. The second problem was that it has to relate to one of your claimed Messiahs which you claim are no different than the mainstream Christian claim for Jesus.
#3
The prince/king of Tyre is a prophesy of Ezekiel regarding a future King of Tyre. It is not a prophesy of the Jewish Messiah or prophesy of a prophet who claims to be God.
The challenge was in response to your wild claim that there were (I believe you said somewhere at some point thousands) false Messiahs who claimed to be God.
Good effort though. Keep trying.
Here is my post that you were feigning a response to but didn’t actually.
“C.R,
Name one that was a contemporary of Jesus prior to AD 70 that was “deified.”
And as you know, Jesus himself was not “deified” until centuries later.
By the way while we’re on the subject of deification, your claims against the book of Revelation are without merit in that there is no warning against claimed deities. Rather there is a warnings pertaining to the anti-Christ. It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.”
I’m only quoting Your NT books (and the historic Christian Church interpretations of texts like Daniel and these other books by these Christians themselves,) because they warn people about people who make claims to deity. They only make the one exception to this claim in Jesus’ case, ie it’s ok for Jesus to claim deity, but nobody else can. I am showing that MOST Christians are being inconsistent in judgement on this issue because the Torah itself says NOBODY No person WHO IS A HUMAN IS G-d IN ANY SENSE. Nobody in Daniel claims divinity? Umm, the King does? Also, he tries to worship Daniel, even whilst he acknowledges that HASHEM is the true G-d.
I realize David, that you are a Unitarian, (so you reinterpret or read the NT differently) but that is irrelevant in this case because the majority of Jesus followers, and the historic Church commentators of early centuries are not Unitarian. They teach Jesus is divine. Even Unitarians violate Torah when they say that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY. That is in direct contradiction to what the Torah teaches.
Sure Paul. To answer your question, Isaiah 13:4 And you shall bear this parable against the KING OF BABYLON, and you shall say, “How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one! דוְנָשָׂאתָ הַמָּשָׁל הַזֶּה עַל מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל וְאָמָרְתָּ אֵיךְ שָׁבַת נֹגֵשׂ שָׁבְתָה מַדְהֵבָה:
Verses 12-13 are part of this parable brought against the king of Babylon.
12How have you fallen from heaven, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. יבאֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם הֵילֵל בֶּן שָּׁחַר נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ חוֹלֵשׁ עַל גּוֹיִם:
the morning star: This is Venus, which gives light as the morning star, הֵילֵל being derived from יהל, to shed light. This is the lamentation over the heavenly prince of Babylon, who will fall from heaven.
You have been cut down to earth: You, Nebuchadnezzar, who would cast lots on nations. You would cast lots on them, on the kings, who of them would serve you on such and such a day, and who on such and such a day. Our Rabbis, however, expounded this to mean that he would cast lots on the kings for purposes of pederasty.
13And you said to yourself, ‘To the heavens will I ascend, above God’s stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north. יגוְאַתָּה אָמַרְתָּ בִּלְבָבְךָ הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶעֱלֶה מִמַּעַל לְכוֹכְבֵי אֵל אָרִים כִּסְאִי וְאֵשֵׁב בְּהַר מוֹעֵד בְּיַרְכְּתֵי צָפוֹן:
above the stars of God: Israel.
on the mount of the assembly: The mount where all assemble, i.e., Mount Zion.
in the farthest end of the north: In the forecourt, the chosen place, the north side, as the matter is stated (Lev. 1:11): “On the side of the altar to the north.”
I know that In Christian tradition these verses have been traditionally allegorized as referring to Satan as “the morning star who fell from heaven” for setting himself in G-d’s place, wanting G-d’s throne. In Judaism, you go by the plain sense of the verses just as much which clearly says this message is a parable “against the king of Babylon.” When coupled with the verses in Ezekiel outlining G-d’s warnings against the Prince of Tyre for the same behavior, we can know it as a bad untrustworthy thing when people claim to sit in G-d’s place ie to claim divinity to be served by others. I also think these are texts where an antichrist tradition forms in Christianity.
David, we don’t know of People (other than Jesus’ followers, and possibly the mandeans, a sect that venerated John the Baptist in the 2nd century) who viewed their founders as divine, but it is a matter of historical record that they do. After Jesus however, there are a couple of examples of messiah claimants who came dangerously close to deification. The followers of Jacob Frank venerated his daughter I believe? The Lubavitcher rebbe has been deified by a couple of crazies, etc. the point I’m making, is that these types of venerations and deification are foreign, and anti Torah. You would like Jews to embrace Jesus the man, but you can’t seperate him from the theology built around him. You want us to find the fresh apple in the rotten barrel. We will stick with what we know to be true in the plain sense, Torah.
“and he doesn’t tell me to bring a sword to anybody’s neck because they do not believe.”
Actually Eric, Jesus DOES IN FACT TELL YOU TO EMPLOY VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT HIS MESSAGE.
Luke 19:27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
This verse has been used by Christian groups throughout history to advocate pogroms against Jews and to persecute minority Christian groups, from the earliest days, even now. You would have to be truly blind to Christian history to say otherwise. If you say “those weren’t real Christians,” please show me the real Christian who actually lives like Jesus did day to day.
I’ll wager you cant find one. The only people you can find who live as he did are Jew who DONT AND WONT believe in him.
Of what use is your faith when all the good Christians are invisible being surrounded by false ones?
Con, you really have no clue about NT . Your interpretations are no different than picked by someone who reads the words but doesn’t know what they relate to.
“Actually Eric, Jesus DOES IN FACT TELL YOU TO EMPLOY VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT HIS MESSAGE.Luke 19:27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
The words you quoted relate to the messianic times where the king is dealing with all who oppose him that includes Israels enemy. Jesus refers that message to what you read in the last chapters of Zechariah.
You have to read v27 in conjunction with v14. Those two together make them valid in that present time. V13 sets the time as their time. It’s v15 that starts the future time. THIS is how parables work.
Sharbano, was any single person killed in the eyes of jesus because he commanded such thing to anybody? NO. He doesn’t contradict his words. He said he didn’t come to condemn the world but save it. No single event of anybody being killed, but him !
Those who do not chose salvation , they will have their condemnation in the future. Now is time of grace , later time of judgement. That judgement will face all who oppose God. This is what his words relate to. Read all what he said.
Sharbano,That’s how he brought ‘sword’ ; those who will come to God will be always persecuted by those who deny God. And that happened with persecution of the first Christians. Even wanting to bring peace there will be no peace as there will be always those who will be bothered by your faith with God. ( until the messianic times)
You wrote: “That judgement will face all who oppose God.”
Who is included in those who oppose God? Will all non-Christians face that judgment in your view?
We have shown you that the Hebrew Bible maps out a complete path to repentance, righteousness, and God without any clear teachings for any other type of worship. Therefore, are Jews who follow this path opposed to God?
What about Muslims who live moral lives and love Allah? Are they opposed to God?
Dina, I am leaving the judgement to God. I am not His spokesman who know all his decisions who is damned who not! Even the evil one might turn back to God at the end and end up as a righteous one. Or the righteous one turn back from God and end up as a damned. But God appointed His day in which He will judge all unrighteousness. I will get you all the links later when I have time. I have it somewhere in my documents.
Sharbano, For your better understanding Luke 19;11-27 why is this parable relating to messianic future and not a call to violence? It talks about return of the king who will rule over people. ( the Messiah) Return proceeded by God’s judgement so called the Day of the Lord.
Sharbano, Can you be more specific in what you want to tell me?? In v 13 kings servants are entrusted with some responsibility till the kings return but some reject it and no not care to serve their king v.14 . Then the verses are talking about kings return and rewards and punishment. What don’t you understand?
I really wish people would actually read what is written. What did I say that “Joined” the present with the future. This is the point that Xtians always overlook.
Sharbano, ow you are really creating a story! You can’t say what is the matter but put some words that mean nothing. Can’t you face a simple parable???? ‘ a king
A) entrusts people with something,
b) leaves
c) comes back and judges them
What is your problem?????????????????
Actually Eric, I was baptized into the Church at age seven, I went to Church from that age until I went off to college and got my degrees in comparative religions and also another in history, which included extensive studies in Church history, theology, and practice. So, yes, I do in fact know a great deal about what your NT says, and what Christians of various sorts believe and believed. I further know the impact that this religion has had on world history, both good and bad.
The point I was trying to make with quoting Luke 19:27 is that it doesn’t matter what time period that verse actually refers to, messianic period, or our time today. The point is that Jesus in the NT says this, and various Christian groups throughout history have drawn inspiration from that verse in order to do great violence to Christendom’s perceived enemies, Jews and non Jews.
People who perpetuate violence and hate others seldom care about the true context and proper understanding of a verse. My point was, its not good that this verse is present in the NT at all!
Protestants and Catholics both applied Luke 19:27 to justify their persecution of each others groups during the reformation, and all historic Christian groups applied that verse in justification for harming Jews, burning Talmuds, instigating pogroms, etc. Christians in the middle ages (down into the 1960s) celebrated passion plays where Jews as a people were blamed (collectively) for Jesus’ death. Mobs of angry Christians would then go hurt Jews after seeing passion plays and being filled with zeal. Its in Church history, look it up, I’m not lying to you. By telling me I’m ignoring the verse’s context you miss the point I made.
If there is a verse found in ANY religion’s text that says GO KILL X GROUP OF PEOPLE, it is a dangerous text simply for that reason. The original context may have been a suitable occasion to say GO KILL X group, but when later generations take that verse and run with it, and interpret it, strip its context, etc. it can become a dangerous text regardless of what anyone says it “really means,” or what the original author’s intent really was.
Con, “People who perpetuate violence and hate others seldom care about the true context and proper understanding of a verse. My point was, its not good that this verse is present in the NT at all! (…)If there is a verse found in ANY religion’s text that says it is a dangerous text simply for that reason. ”
Yes, I understand your point , but don’t you think God is aware of people taking any ‘piece of a information’ and using it supporting their evil actions ? You said ; that verse in Luke shouldn’t be in NT. People misused it completely but you do not realize OT also carries a message that can be misused and still God put it there; “GO KILL X GROUP OF PEOPLE,’ is also in relation to holy wars in OT.
Isn’t it interesting that in These times, post Shoah, many Xtians refer to all those who perpetrated such acts were not real adherents to the religion, And, by the same token the Xtian text doesn’t, or didn’t spur this along. It wasn’t merely the Leaders of the religion who were guilty of such crimes, but the individuals and whole communities who were complicit in those acts. All of a sudden, in This generation, the followers of the religion have exonerated themselves of any guilt. They are the new and improved generation. What if a man arrives on the scene and has Israel, as a nation, follow all Torah laws and requires the nations to do the same. In This framework he is called Mashiach, and tells the Xtians the Jews were right all along and has them give up their Jsus. How will these Xtians of the modern generation react. Will they see him as Mashiach or an antichrist and seek his demise. Will they go against Him and G-d, or accept him and seek relations with the Jewish State.
Some years ago I heard of a game that was set in times of Armageddon and it had Xtians killing off those who were “unbelievers”, especially Jews who would refuse to follow a character that was king. When it comes to religion it doesn’t take much for one to turn to a form of cleansing. The more a person is invested in a “belief” the easier the cleansing.
Con, I forgot to mention ; stoning was one of the punishments in the OT times. Do you realize how many people terribly misuse it in the Middle East and how many crimes are done on simply innocent people who have no rights and are stoned to death for stupid or made up reasons?
So if we go by’ none of the things like that’ should have been in NT we would have to cut out much more. And even if there was no killing mentioned anywhere, evil would still find it;’s ways to misuse anything God said and use it for it’s evil purposes.
As it is with Islam so it was with Xtianity. Since neither had the knowledge of Torah guidelines they took it upon themselves to define it. Such it is with stoning, or the way Xtianity implemented slavery. They both “assume” they understood Torah but neither did.
In the History of Israel and the Church they were period of violence. Actually in the Tanakh we see it clearly for it is written in the Holy Book. The Church when it grew stronger in number got caught in the 4th century with the political powers and seductions of power and money corrupting the leaders like in the Time of Judah and Israel when they started to have confidence in mammom instead of God.
Therefore let us be honest here and not play the accusation game. We must always act with a repentant heart and seek the will of God having always confidence in Him like little chidren in the arms of their parents.
Christian Paul, its not merely “an accusation game” at all, its the historical truth! Even a modern film like the passion of the Christ portrays Jewish people as villains, and that rhetoric has a real world impact on how people today perceive and treat Jewish people. In many ways the violence people perpetuate is subconscious, and is due to misunderstanding, but its there. I’m not saying that only Christians have done bad things, but I am saying Christians alone are the ones who are responsible for the various actions done in the name of their religion and sacred texts!
You can’t just side step all the corruption and historic violence in the Church as “not real Christianity,” because the NT has had this very real negative impact in world history. In many ways, its irrelevant what the original intention of that first group of Jews who followed Jesus was, or what beautiful interpretation you can offer of the NT text. If only one person understands the text in the proper way, that doesn’t make it a good, especially since so many people tend to do evil and rash things with it.
Honesty is the key here if we can humble ourselves. I am willing to accept your argument if they are just. I have posted violence in the History and recognized the abuses of Christianity but you did not address in the Tanakh the violence that was made also. You put it aside may be justified by the fact it is sacred violence… I do not know. Can you explain please for the sake of truth. Thank you in advance!
First I will appreciate to be called Christian not Paul. Do I call you Hi Goodman? Thank you!
N.B.: This is my second time that I bring that to your attention.
Christian Paul
Its important to realize that the Torah as a text is a book that contains both holiness and self criticism, (including examples of very bad behavior, even from the moral greats of the text.) In a way, the Torah stands at the vantage point of amorality, having great potential for both good and bad for those who read it.
So, not everything in it has a moral justification for all time in all situations. For example, we would all say the that Torah truly says that “David was a man after G-D’s own heart.” We wouldn’t ever say however that because David was loved by G-d that David’s sins of adultery and murder were somehow also justified, or loved by G-d right?
The commandment to blot out Amalek is likewise not a blanket justification for killing an entire population of people. The Torah teaches what is good, as well as what is not good. “See I have set before you life and good, death and evil.” Deuteronomy 30:15.
A community and its sacred text bear responsibility for both the good and the bad done in its name, anything that comes about due to its existence. The Torah is an exercise in sharpening of character, not a blanket allowance, or a blanket condemnation of a given action. There are laws in Torah after all, that apply only to Jews, laws that apply only to gentiles, laws that apply only to women, etc. So, as an example, is it immoral for a gentile to eat pork? No, because he isn’t enjoined to observe that commandment.
First Con thank you for your response. I find that you are always prompt to respond and it is interesting.
Saul I am responding to your post in the same time for I was thinking about the injunction from YHWH to exterminate Amalek that Saul did not obey and therefore was rejected by the Elohim. Con brought it and let us if you may take this example.
Amalek extermination that is called sacred violence for it comes from God, therefore could in Modern history something like this happen in the name of God like some Muslim do in the Middle East. How can we know that those injunction are from God when it apparently goes against the Torah ‘you shalt not kill’ Can we kill our enemies therefore as being an exception to the rule?
Thank you!
P.S.: Dina you have two different questions:
1) I do not understand why multiple choices in the border of ridicule and lack of respect for the name of the Messiah? I just know like all human beings that is Hebrew name is written like in the first book of the Prophets: יהושוע
2)You asked me if I am humble. Why this question are you concerned for my soul or did I showed signs of pride. Please correct me if you saw something. Thank you! Now my life my soul my everything comes from YHWH and I praise, thank and worship Him. For i am nothing and He is everything. Bless be His Holy Name now and forever!
CP, if you knew Hebrew, you would know that the Torah does not say “You shall not kill” (לא תהרג) but “You shall not murder” (לא תרצח) which renders your argument silly, forgive me for saying so. If you really want to know what the Torah teaches, you should learn some Hebrew. (This will also prevent you from making that astonishingly foolish statement that in effect implies that God contradicted Himself.)
Also, I think it’s strange for you to question God’s commands, unless you do not believe the Torah to be true. And if the Torah isn’t true, then Judaism isn’t true. And no Judaism = no Christianity.
I would like to know how you spell Jesus’s name in English. Why do you refuse to do that? It’s a pretty simple and straightforward question.
I asked if you were humble because you keep telling everyone else to stay away from pride in order to be honest. Do you think you are humble enough to be as honest as you keep telling everyone else to be? I think that’s a fair question.
So basically, you are saying that killing on God’s order is the same as killing…. Not on God’s order? Are you serious here?
This is so silly. Now you are putting God’s orders on the same level of legitimacy as Man’s orders. This is an atheistic position. This is a denial of God’s sovereignty, and equating Man to the same level as God.
Thank you for the correction. I should surely learn to be more precise. Now I see the difference between killing and murdering. Now is the ultra-orthodox person in Israel was allowed by the Torah to take the life of some gay people? Is it a kill or a murder?
Also can I ask you why do you ask me my mother tongue? Do I ask you personal question? Is it relevant to the discussion? Thank you!
Three other points: 1)the name of the Messiah translated in other tongues depend of each tongue way of pronunciation. In Spanish, Jesus would equal Chesou in English. From the Hebrew יהושוע would make YHUSHUA in English
2) I do not think that God contradict Himself I am trying to show that violence can be holy if it is ordered by God and my question was … How can we know that the order comes from God? It is humans that contradict God not God who contradicts Himself. Sometimes we humans think that we understand God but it is more our ego that we are understanding…
Amalek problem is a real issue. Could you think that it can happen in our days?
3) Dina when I say to stay away from pride I certainly include me first. It is a duty to correct each other for the better good. I hope I am not mistaken when I say that. And I even ask you to correct me if I am deluding myself in that matter. Thank you in advance!
“Now I see the difference between killing and murdering. Now is the ultra-orthodox person in Israel was allowed by the Torah to take the life of some gay people? Is it a kill or a murder?”
Obviously, if you had to ask that question, you don’t see the difference between killing and murdering. Beside for learning some Hebrew, maybe you should learn some English too.
“Also can I ask you why do you ask me my mother tongue? Do I ask you personal question?”
I think you know perfectly well why I am asking you, but really, CP, since when is asking someone what language they speak a personal question? Here is an example of a personal question: “Do you get along with your wife?” But “what language do you speak?” is not a personal question.
Why on earth do you not want to answer that question? I would have no problem answering similar questions from you.
So tell me, mon cher monsieur, what is your native tongue? And what other languages do you speak?
Thank you for answering my question about the spelling of the name of your false god. However, your transliteration of יהושוע is incorrect. It is more correct to spell it Yehoshua, which is Hebrew for Joshua, not Jesus.
Maybe you need to sort out the names for your deity first, before you answer that question.
“I do not think that God contradict Himself I am trying to show that violence can be holy if it is ordered by God and my question was … How can we know that the order comes from God?”
Do you believe the Torah is true? God ordered the killing of Amalek and the nations of the land of Canaan in the Torah. That’s how we know the order came from God. So do you believe the Torah is true, or do you not believe the Torah is true? If you answer yes, then you should not need to even ask that question. If you answer no, then you should not be a Christian, because if the Torah is false, then so is Christianity for sure.
“Amalek problem is a real issue. Could you think that it can happen in our days?”
It cannot happen for two reasons: one, we are not a sovereign people with a Holy Temple and so do not have the power to carry out this commandment; and two, we cannot identify who is Amalek.
Are you seriously worried? When was the last time the Jewish people carried out genocide? Can you find any incident more recent than 3000 years ago? Silly willy CP!
About pride, I am glad to hear you include yourself in your rebuke. I would still like to know if you believe pride is worse in a woman than in a man.
To recap, here is a list of my questions:
1. Can you sort out your man-god’s name and spell it in English?
2. What is your native tongue and what other languages do you speak?
3. Do you believe the Torah is true, and if so, then all commands in the Torah emanate from God?
4. Are you afraid of murderous violence from Jews? Do you believe it is one of the problems plaguing the world today?
Peace and blessings to you too! J’espère que tu répondras bientôt.
1) I feel that you have a lot of prejudices against Christians calling them all Protestants. That is very unjust. Orthodox Christians are not what you think. I hope you will seek and learn before judging prematurely. Thank you!
2) My mother tongue is personal for if I tell it to you, you will again prejudge like you did with Christians. It starts with “L” or “A” depending on how do you see it.
3) During Second World War more than 20 millions Russian Orthodox Christian were killed (murdered) by Stalin the atheist guy a freemason. Then of course I can feel the pain of 6 millions of my brothers Jews who were killed also by the monster.
4) a)The Messiah was not English in Hebrew the name is clear יהושוע which would transliterate to Y’HUSHUA or Y’HOSHUA who gave us the modern Joshua
b) The Holy Name of the Elohim is YHWH which you will not pronounce. The Messiah is our Salvation is name reflects that YHWH is the One who saves…
5) Concerning humility I think that women are generally more humble than men. For my part I hope to be in humility and truth and may YHWH preserves me of that awful sin. And please pray for me a sinner that I always do the will of the Eternal One.
What is your basis for saying Hashem is the “Holy Name” for Elokim.
We have already discussed the Reason for not pronouncing the Name and it is Based in Torah.
This conversation is getting delightfully silly and entertaining. I hope you are enjoying it as much as I.
“I feel that you have a lot of prejudices against Christians calling them all Protestants.”
First, I never called all Christians Protestants. That is a lie. I do have a prejudice against liars. I should warn you about that. It’s a mean, nasty prejudice.
Second, you reveal your own prejudice against Protestants. I don’t care about particular denominations, and I am not anti any Christian sect per se (I am anti falsehood and idolatry). So you are revealing yourself to be an intolerant religious bigot. Such touching Christian love for your own brethren!
“Then of course I can feel the pain of 6 millions of my brothers Jews who were killed also by the monster.”
I did not ask you if you can feel the pain of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust. You need to read more carefully. What did I ask you, CP? Can you answer that question? Do you dare?
“My mother tongue is personal for if I tell it to you, you will again prejudge like you did with Christians.”
How do you prejudge someone on the basis of their spoken language? I did not know that was possible. Unlike you, I do not judge people based on their gender, color of their skin, race, or religion. I judge them on the content of their character (to paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr.).
So what are you really afraid of, CP? Why are you afraid to tell the truth? Are you really scared of the judgment of big, bad, scary Dina? Or is there another more sinister reason?
(Cue the dramatic music.)
“The Messiah was not English in Hebrew the name is clear etc.”
Since you spell his name differently in different places and refer to him in different ways, you should just sort it all out. Is it Yeshua? Y’hooshooah? Yahooshooeee? Do you happen to have a preference for Yahushuo? That seemed to be a favorite of yours in a different incarnation.
“Concerning humility I think that women are generally more humble than men.”
Again, I did not ask if you think women are more humble than men (which is interesting, by the way. Really? On what basis do you make that judgment?) I asked you if pride is worse in a woman than in a man. Are you capable of reading? Or do you prefer to answer the questions you wished I had asked rather than the ones I actually did ask?
“And please pray for me a sinner that I always do the will of the Eternal One.”
It is against the will of the Eternal One to worship anyone else. If you want to His will, obey Him at once, abandon your Jesus idol, and turn to Him alone. I pray that you learn to be honest and self-aware, for that is the first step to being able to be a better person.
Lol, Saul! It’s cool that you speak French. I studied it in high school and college, but sadly haven’t used it in about 20 years, alors j’ai oublié la plupart du français que j’ai appris. My spelling and grammar are probably horrible. But I do love that language.
Anyway, I have a specific reason for using French phrases here. I hope that it will become clear pretty soon, but if not, then I will explain :).
You are correct that films or talk that implies a under current of biased views do generate hate and violence, in this context the Jewish hate compaign.
I am in no way stating this has not happened. It has, with massive and unforgettable horrors. But the antisemitic voices and the ears that recieve and believe the antisemitism, are just that, antisemitic. They simply do not understand the word of God, and have absolutely no idea of the written word, especially here, in regard to the Jews and the promised land.
I would also add that the whole of the bible has been used against the children of Israel, not just the NT by itself. Any scripture can be turned upside down and used incorrectly if one has an hidden agenda. Any writing given over into the wrong hands can be fatal.
The nazis did this, using OT.
Because the bible has been used incorrectly, the act of sin doesn’t devalue the original texts as they were intended. Its only sinful man that kills, not the holy word.
I find it a little odd that you state the original text is irrelevant? I would counter that statement, and I will put the ball back into your court……….
……… It seems like you are admitting that the original text are pro semitic ( which they are), but you are now dismissing them, based on the perversed nature on which they were intended.
The negative impact, which yes, has impacted the Jews massively, has also brought thousands of Jews to Christ in faith, faith that is, not forced into.
Personally, before I became a believer in Christ I watched The film, The passion of the Christ. I didn’t see the Jews as evil. I didnt go on some pogrom. I just felt sad at the whole affair. Having said that I do understand that in history past, RC priests would use lent and the build up to easter as an opportunity to go Jew bashing. Thats wrong, evil etc etc, which I hate. Again its how one is internally which acts so wickedly, not the teachings of Jesus the Jew.
Even if the verses in the NT that call Jews “children of the Devil,” etc. could be radically reinterpreted it doesn’t change the fact that for at least 1800 years of Christian history, Christians themselves, along with their sanctioned reading of scripture, canon of laws, and actions have done evil against Jews with those NT texts, without cause.
There is a whole Orthodox Christian genre entitled “Adversus Ioudaios” literally Against the Jews, that can be traced back to at the latest the beginning of the 2nd century, even earlier. We can’t escape the fact that an anti Jewish rhetoric (a fierce rhetoric and libel against Jesus’ purported opponents,) has lead Christians in most generations (in one degree or another) to do violence and or to speak extreme ill against Jews. It is not a coincidence that “Pharisee” is a slur in our culture. We can thank the NT for that.
Its inherent in the NT (in John’s gospel most viciously) due to that particular text’s historical context. The NT lambasts the Pharisees as being worthless, blind, stupid, evil, etc. thus the text itself harbors a hatred of a community, that goes beyond prophetic rebuke, and spills over affecting religious and non religious Jews negatively. Notice that Jesus never includes himself in the rebukes? He never says, “I too am worthless, stupid, evil.” The prophets (in contrast to Jesus) always placed themselves alongside those who they condemned for their unrighteousness.
In the gospels, Jesus’ students are contrasted sharply with the Pharisees. The pharisees are almost always treated as totally beyond redemption. Do you think it is just coincidence that so many horrid things happened to the Jews?
David, you have spoken to and accused Dina and others here of possessing an anti Christian, and anti pagan agenda on behalf of people here.
Are you not aware that historical Christian legislation and culture is absolutely saturated with anti Jewish, and also anti pagan literature and actions? THERE IS AN ENTIRE GENRE DEVOTED ONLY TO THE SUBJECT OF BASHING JEWS AND THEIR FAITH!!!!
The protocols of the learned elders of Zion, Chrysostom’s homilies against the Jews, Tertullian’s treatise against them, Luther’s works, countless forced disputations throughout history, the blood libel, blaming Jews for the Plague, forced expulsions, and the climate of hostility produced by this vitriolic literature that contributed greatly to the holocaust and the world’s inaction in the face of it.
Do you realize that most of the Nuremburg laws have antecedents in Christian legislation? Yellow badges, Ghettos, forced labor, exclusion from positions of authority or of influence, etc. were all practiced by the Churches before the Nazis! I am in no way blaming all Christians for the Shoah, but I am asking you to confront historical realities rather than to live with a myth that Christians have been unfairly judged or maligned.
There is a well known saying, “let history make its own judgements.” Did the Church live up to the profound ethics of Jesus in all its history? NO! And yes, Jesus’ ethics were profound. That said, the movement founded in his name has done unspeakable harm, and only a fool would paint Christendom as poor persecuted sheep. Did you know there were Pogroms in Poland and Austria in 1946 among clergymen RIGHT AFTER THE HOLOCAUST ENDED? Did you know about general Patton’s reaction (when confronted by president Truman with the conditions in postwar refugee camps?)
I’m interested in hearing about General Patton. I don’t know the story you are referring to, so if you have time, can you write it?
I hope David reads what you wrote, but I think he’s gone for now. He pops up every once in a while, then leaves just as abruptly.
At any rate, thanks for the validation. I recently read an article about anti-Semitism. It described it as the oldest, most universal, and most implacable hatred. Throughout the ages, the anti-Semite and the Jew have faced off against each other, the one playing offense and the other playing defense, respectively.
And that is the revenge of the anti-Semite: when we complain about anti-Semitism, we are the ranters and ravers.
The point hit home, because Eric, David, and Paul have all expressed the view that I rant and rave about anti-Semitism while denying the phenomenon. Eric denies that there is such a thing as Christian anti-Semitism and accuses me of being “soaked in message of hate.” Paul tells me I’m acting like a pathetic victim. And David pretends that there was never such a thing in the first place, while Jews were the ones oppressing Christians and now Arabs.
It’s enough to make anyone bang their head against the wall in despair.
Yeah Dina. I was actually profoundly shocked when I heard about general Patton. My family has an extensive history of military service, and Ive always respected general Patton. My Grandfather fought in WWII, so Ive always had a sense of respect for Patton. I was watching a documentary on Netflix called “The long way home.” It talks about hardships faced by survivors after the Shoah. It Chronicles Patton’s work administering post war refugee camps. He apparently said some very horrific things in his diary.
As I said, I was shocked. I understand how Christians feel. They believe in their religion,but they can’t believe that honest “believers” would be capable of such horrible violence. Sadly, the historical record illustrates a very violent history of Christianity. Many Christians have said “true Christians only do good to others as Jesus taught,” but they miss the point that evil can come even from the best of sources. Even the Torah (G-d forbid) could be used for violence if a group had their heart set on it. The point is, we cant whitewash. We have to confront the difficult verses in religious texts that can be used for violence.
Yes I am aware of these barbaric acts of wickedness. You would have to be totally insane to dismiss these truths of history.
But im a believer in the Jewish Jesus, and His teachings, and im no Jew hater. Thats why I make the statements of the True invisible Church, verses the visible non church.
Ive also discovered that Henry Ford was quite the antisemite.
You wrote,
“Did the Church live up to the profound ethics of Jesus in all its history? NO! And yes, Jesus’ ethics were profound.”
My response,
I agree, “the Church” meaning the visible church, meaning “Christiandom.” There’s a difference between Christiandom and Christianity.
Did you know that during the Middle Ages everyone in Europe except for Jews and Muslims were part of Christiandom? Obviously then, they weren’t all Christians.
There is nothing in the NT that is anti-Semitic.
The Crusades for example began as a reaction to Islam to when Alexis, the Emperor of Byzantium, an area of Christiandom, requested help from the Pope.
And Hitler was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Semitic.
There’s a difference between Christendom and Christianity.
Not a truly meaningful one David. Think about it. If someone reads your sacred text David, and based on reading that text, and being motivated by its verses, decides to persecute some group of people using those NT verses, that is on the Christian community’s shoulders to make sure that doesn’t happen, to take responsibility for your own Bible.
Would you agree for instance, that Muslims who read verses in the Qur’an about “killing the infidel,” should be held responsible to uproot the vitriol of those verses that are the root cause of the violence towards non Muslims?
There is nothing in the NT that is anti-Semitic.
The Gospel of John singles out “the Jews” as an entire nation and denigrates them on the basis of living and maintaining their tradition as it existed before Jesus. I don’t care if the author was a Jew, his words DO IN FACT promote unwarranted violence against Jews as a national entity. That is the nature of antisemitism. You have to consciously ignore historical fact to say otherwise, which is, respectfully, crazy. I don’t care about these godly invisible Christians of yours, I care about the real physical person who reads the Christian Bible and decides to persecute Jews, and knock on people’s doors. What’s the difference between invisible “true Christians” and “True Christians” that don’t exist? Just your imagination!
Con, things are invisible for those who do not want to see. I am talking about people just in case you wanted mention about your check to me. too. Ask the thousands who were rescued and they will tell you that their rescuers has a physical human form.
Your reasoning here is only based on what happened from the view point of a perversion used on the bible. The Bible on the whole is simply a Jewish document. Ok, the NT was written in Greek, and yes non believers will not receive the NT as sacred. That I get, but the NT was written by Jews, primarily for Jews.
In fact there are passages where Jesus ignores gentiles for the sake of first going to the Jew first. Going to the Jew first, obviously shows the importance of the gospels first audience. Plus Pauls aim and teaching was the Jew first.
These are simple and basic truths taught in scripture.
To be totally blunt here, the idea that the NT and the teachings of Christ are intended foundations of Jewish blood are as perverted as the texts used to promote Jewish deaths. Again to be blunt, it seems like using the anti semimetic reasoning of NT scripture is a convenient place to hide from the truth which is obviously what is going here, and what has gone on through the corridors of history.
Im not ignorant to the fact of Jewish blood being spilt in the name of Christ. I see it and get it. Bloggers here will bombard these pages with dates, quotes, etc of Jewish blood being shed in the name of Christ. That I see yes and yes. Im not dismissing these facts or ignoring them nor am I condoning them. I see it through the eyes of Jews and try to understand the horrible history dished out by the “church”.
I havnt personally being persecuted, so I can only see it from the outside looking in, but I do have Jewish friends who families were killed in the pogroms in Europe. This Jewish friend or actually now a Jewish brother in Christ is a Messianic, Christian believer.He is a Rabbi and of course he understands the history better than me. But he isnt anti NT teachings. He sees it as the Bible was intended to be seen, pro Jew.
Plus I have another Jewish brother who is a Dr in Jewish theology. His parents escaped nazi Europe into siberia. He also came to Christ in faith. He sees the theology concept of Jewish history, but he isnt anti NT teachings.
WHY??? Because the Bible on the whole is Jewish.
I see a odd concept here;
Bible believing followers of Christ, simply do not hate Jews or promote Jewish hatred.
WHY??
Because a simply glance over the scriptures from beginning to end show that the Jews are paramount and central to the plan of God. No Jews no plan. Its that simple.
Non believers, athiests, or religious institutions which stand under the banner of the cross, who simply do not belong to Christ will be led or lead others to totall non scriptual teachings of the written word. They may and do use scripture to promote there own concepts of scripture, but that is not a legitimate rendering of Scripture.
Now Here Jews who reject Christ, who totally reject the teachings of Christ, use the twisted rendering of the truth, and use those false teachings, which fueled their horrific and bloody history, as a scapegoat, to deflect their theological postion with God.
A position which is only temporary, which unfortunately will only get worse before it gets better.
May the Lord God of Israel open your eyes to the truth.
Paul
Your statement that we use the anti-Semitism of the Church as a “scapegoat” is demonstrably false – there are hundreds of articles on this blog alone – the vast majority of them point out the theological and Scriptural flaws of Christianity without resorting to mentioning Christian anti-Semitism – why don’t you try responding to an article like “Another Mathematical Problem”? or “Blood Songs” – you have hundreds to choose from https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/04/12/another-mathematical-problem-2/ https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/949/
The problem with statements like the one here which you write ref John are worryingly incorporated with antisemitism. The topic which here is in question.
You make unwarranted emphatic statements about John dammning an entire Jewish nation.
Do you not see, that kind of thinking and public outcry is just the same medium of propaganda which antisemites use. You automatically and totally incorrectly read into a text and use it for your argument.
You would think that the mob who claim Jews killed Jesus had read the bible and were carrying out righteousness in the name of Christ.
However it is very evident that the NT teaches quite the oppersite. Jesus made numerous statements about Himself laying down His own life for His sheep. He said nobody takes His life. He said Ive come to do my Fathers will. He told pilate that he didnt have any authority over His life. Etc etc etc etc.
So the message is clear. So to persecute a Jew, based on the notion that Jesus was murdered out of Gods sovereign will is so enormously stupid it beggars belief.
Once one has obtained salvation through Christs death, buriel and resurrection, it becomes very clear that the Jewish rejection of Messiah is my acceptance into the covenants of Israel. Something wich was hindered by proselytising through the temple service.
Gods overall plan for my salvation as a gentile is through Israels rejection of their Messiah. Anyone with an ounce of common decency will see, that through Gods grace there are redeemed through Christ, through faith. The consequential reaction to that revelation of truth is to tell the Jew of Christ, not to murder them. Im only saved because of His death.
It is a thin line, but if you get it wrong the consequences are massive. The “church” got it wrong. Is John argueing to said individuals or the entire 100% nation. If you read the individual texts and then, on the whole NT, a look will reveal the truth….. Individuals.
Your foundational starting point is uneven. The more you build on it the more it becomes unstable. Your views are personal but not scriptual.
So, if Jsus is laying his own life on the line then WHY does he call those people devils and children of the devil. He should have praised them for doing the will of the Father.
David Hitler had a pact with the Pope – he had no pact with any Jewish entity. Hitler gave tithe to the Catholic Church till the day he died. to say that he was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Semitic is simply untrue
Hitler rejected the Christian God and preferred the ancient paganism of his forefathers.
His ideas were anti-Christian. He drew heavily from Nietzsche, who originally coined the phrase “God is dead.” By his own admission he was clearly fighting against the God of the bible.
Regarding his pact with Christiandom and not with the Jews, why would he, a madman bent on ultimate power, make a pact with relatively powerless Jews?
David I was responding to your comment that Hitler was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Jewish – this is false – he saw some commonality between himself and Christianity – but none with Judaism
Yes I agree. H had been very clear of his future intentions for the jewish people. Making political, religious pacts would have been futile.
However H wasnt stupid. Evil and mad, yes. H was raised “in a church environment,” either Lutheran and RC. These churches had been raised in The Teaching of contempt, the antisemitism which was rife in the church.
So with a mix of antisemitism teaching, germanic erian pseudo science and mythology h was well self convinced that Jews had to be disposed of.
His perfect excuse was “the churches” own teachings. All h had to do was to get the church on side, and his future intentioned plans were made even more accessible.
A point to remember is h came to power by democracy. Crazy as it was, it was still by the ballot box. Once h came to ultimate power the church had to replace the bible wih a copy of meine kampft and a sword. By then it was to late, and the sorrowful future of 6 million Jews were only days away.
paul Do you realize that every step of Hitler’s plan for the Jews was already thought out by Church theologians long before him – including a racist persecution of Jews
Hello
Well again technically speaking tithing is a non NT scriptual teaching. Tithes were given under the Mosaic Law. As any scripture based believer in Christ should know and practice, the Law was rendered inoperative through Christ, freeing the believer ftom the Law.
Unfortunately tithes and dozens more errors of teaching are practiced by the church, under the misguided teaching of so called leaders.
Again, what the NT actually teaches and what one practices are miles apart.
Are You contradicting G-d when it comes to tithing or other “Mosaic laws”. (Laws were handed down FROM G-d). What does Malachi say and who is MORE authoritative, Malachi or Xtian teaching.
Will a man rob God? Yet you rob Me, and you say, “With what have we robbed You?”-With tithes and with the terumah-levy.
You are cursed with a curse, but you rob Me, the whole nation!
Bring the whole of the tithes into the treasury so that there may be nourishment in My House, and test Me now therewith, says the Lord of Hosts, [to see] if I will not open for you the sluices of heaven and pour down for you blessing until there be no room to suffice for it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sake, and he will not destroy the fruits of your land; neither shall your vine cast its fruit before its time in the field, says the Lord of Hosts.
You have said, “It is futile to serve God, and what profit do we get for keeping His charge and for going about in anxious worry because of the Lord of Hosts?”
So, Paul, are You willing to ROB G-d.
18And you shall return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who has not served Him.
The problem with Protestants is that they think that everything is abrogated by Christ. That is a lie! Enough of your counter-witness to the truth. What did the Church said in the Gospel of Matthew:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
and further the Christ said:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Therefore if you want to be a true disciple of the Master you must obey not do as you want. If you can not obey because of lack of love for God then humiliate yourself and fall on your knee and pray that you have the grace to be obedient. This is the process of all your life to be worthy of entering the Heavens. Be serious and let go of Babylon!
Well technically the crusades were aimed at the muslims first, then on route Jews were killed. But yes I understand the concept.
Imperialism conquest, state domination, church wordly superiority and definitely Jewish persecution is NOT the teaching of Jesus the Jew or His Church.
All the above is by man putting himself on the throne of God and ignoring scriptural teaching.
Persecution of the Jewish people is literally as old as sin itself, it is not a new church document. The book of Esther should show the world thus.
The murderous attempt to destroy Gods children in Europe is not a new concept. Sad but uncomfortably true.
Paul, read my posts on this blog about this subject. Nobody is blaming All christians for Jewish persecution, we are just noting that there are things written in the NT that fuel a hatred of Jews. Even if Jews wrote large parts of the NT, there words had consequences for the Jewish community. The NT has a narrative that negatively implicates all Jews as a people in Jesus’ death. This reinforces and strengthens anti semitism by itself.
Yes I understand you, and yes I did read your quotes.
Like I stated earlier also, texts taken out of context and used to fuel hatred, will by some, be just that, fuel for hatred. The texts cannot he blamed, its the condition of the hearts who read the texts that cause the problems. People twist the truth around to attain their own agendas.
The agenda of antisemitism was always there, it just needed some warped justification to carry out there own plans.
This is why the whole concept of the NT being so antisemitic to me is totally bizarre.
Both parties are guilty.
Antisemitic “believers”who apparently love Christ use scripture to kill Jews.
Jewish non believers also believe that the NT has antisemitism running through it pages.
So the two groups agree with each other!! The difference being, Jews are persecuted, while the other, dish it out!!
However the NT teaches quite the oppersite. The NT teaches that everything that Jesus did and taught was Tanach based. Jews being very central to the whole concept and plan of God. No Jew no plan. That plan is still in place. So killing Jews is not a good idea for every possible reason.
Hi Saul! You asked: “Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?”
The Doctrine of the Bread of Life comes from John 6. The living bread given for the life of the Church has it roots in the Torah in the book of Leviticus:
Leviticus 7:13
12 If a person offers it for giving thanks, he is to offer it with the thanksgiving sacrifice of unleavened cakes mixed with olive oil, matzah spread with olive oil, and cakes made of fine flour mixed with olive oil and fried. 13 With cakes of leavened bread he is to present his offering together with the sacrifice of his peace offerings for giving thanks. 14 From each kind of offering he is to present one as a gift for Adonai; it will belong to the cohen who splashes the blood of the peace offerings against the altar.
Leviticus 8:26
From the basket of matzah that was before Adonai he took one piece of matzah, one cake of oiled bread, and one wafer, and placed them on the fat and on the right thigh.
Leviticus 8:31
Moshe said to Aharon and his sons, “Boil the meat at the door of the tent of meeting; and eat it there with the bread that is in the basket of consecration, as I ordered when I said that Aharon and his sons are to eat it.
Leviticus 8:32
Whatever is left over of the meat and bread you are to burn up completely.
Leviticus 21:6
Rather, they are to be holy for their God and not profane the name of their God. For they are the ones who present Adonai with offerings made by fire, the bread of their God; therefore they must be holy.
And on and on…
Ancient Judaism is the root of Orthodox Christianity. The last accomplish the first.
Leviticus certainly DOES NOT speak of consuming blood. Quite the opposite .
Out of everything Xtianity teaches the eat flesh and blood is The Most Disgusting thing imaginable. In ancient times people would be cannibals in order to gain the power of their enemies. Is THIS what Xtianity wants us to believe. We have to believe in “symbolic cannibalism”.
Sharbano, did you see any Christians drinking blood or eating flesh??? Did any of jesus disciples eat jesus flesh when he spoke to them? Did any vine change into blood because Jesus said; “this is my blood “, or the opposite? No, What was the purpose ? That we all share in his blood shed for us that is for our atonement .
As far as .’ Eating ; represents feeding on God’s words. Read John 6
You can whitewash it all you want but that doesn’t remove the disgusting aspect of it. With the Strict prohibition on consuming blood it is Questionable that a “Jew” would suggest such a thing.
Sharbano, are you kidding? you really believe we drink blood??? Do you know of at least one Christian that does it for his religious purposes??? You seem to be out of moon.
I didn’t ask about supposed roots, i asked where does the Tanakh teach to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Please, do not try to divert from the issue at hand. Your roots things could be made about MacDonald as well. So please, stick to the question.
Saul G to Christian ” “I didn’t ask about supposed roots, i asked where does the Tanakh teach to eat human flesh and drink human blood. ”
It is amazing you are even asking such a question. Do you know what is a figurative language? And did you say you used to be a Christian? There is no eating human flesh and no drinking any blood in Christianity. To those who understood it literally jesus gave the answer in John 8 ;63
The question remains, Why symbolism of something detestable. I’m sure that analogy will bring countless Jews to the table. It sounds more like using the symbolism of the Canaanites.
Sharbano, you have a problem with symbolism? What about that! Do you believe that sprinkling the altar with blood really CLEANED OR PURIFIED it??? That’s what the scripture say. How does it sound encouraging to have something ‘cleaned’ with blood???
Nobody ever imagines that sharing wine we drink Jesus blood, or by sharing bread we eat his body. Wine and bread are sheared a symbols of his blood poured for everybody and his body broken for everybody.
Eric, do you EVER read ALL the words. “A problem with symbolism”. As I said before. READ the entire comment. Why ________ of something detestable. What does the altar have to do with it. Does the priest drink the blood. Blood in and of itself is Not detestable, but if you tell a little child to drink this as it is my blood what would he say.
Once a person goes down the road to say it is G-d’s will that a human can be a sacrifice for man, as the pagans had done, then nothing is out of the question. Because of THAT you cannot see the detestable nature of, even symbolically, eating flesh and drinking blood. It makes me wonder, was Dracula a Xtian.
“Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?”
Neither Hebrew Scriptures nor the NT testament teaches the consumption of human flesh. It is a misunderstanding held to by Catholicism that there is an actual presence of Jesus. Protestants don’t hold to that.
The practice of the last supper which you are referring to was initiated by Jesus as a “remembrance” of what he did to include his broken body and spilled blood on the cross. If you read the NT you’ll see this is the case. The NT also refers to Him as God’s Passover Lamb for us.
By participating individually and communally in the eating of the bread and the wine, as a remembrance of Him and the work he did for us, Christians proclaim His death until he returns, which is also noted in the NT.
Regarding being “saved”, we are saved by righteousness in a manner of speaking whether in OT times or NT times. The Hebrew Scriptures don’t speak in detail about this.
The difference between OT times and NT times is that now, in NT times, one need not have one’s own righteousness. One need only have the faith of accepting Jesus into one’s heart as God’s son (the Messiah) and believing that God raised His son from the dead. In this way we take on the righteousness of God’s son as our own righteousness. It is the righteousness of Jesus who paid the price for our sins which gains for us life in the age to come, not our own righteousness that gains us life. Christians hold that Isaiah 53 describes this specific process of the Messiah paying the price for our righteousness.
The difference of having the righteousness of Jesus is that He, as the Son of God is always righteous and it is never lost and thus our salvation is never lost. We cannot depend on our own righteousness as a guarantee the same way we can depend on the Son of God because our righteousness can be lost. The Hebrew Scriptures also teach that we can lose our righteousness, and as noted above the Hebrew Scriptures don’t go into much detail about life in the age to come nor the standard for gaining life in the age to come.
One last note. Salvation shouldn’t be confused with judgment on our behavior. We will all (including those who are saved) be judged on what we have done for the good or for the bad.
There are several points about that event that are problematic. Is there any case where Jewish rituals are symbolic of something that is detestable. If it were to be done for remembrance there is no need to make the comparison of flesh and blood. If it relates to Passover, Why then were they eating bread.
It sounds like the definition of righteousness in Xtianity is contradictory. If it’s the case that a person takes on the righteousness of Jsus then if that person sins it is Jsus who is also sinning. And if judgment is based upon actions then Jsus righteousness is to no avail.
With all due respect. Your teaching is not Orthodox but pure invention from a papist mentality. You better return to the Orthodox Doctrine of the Apostles and the holy fathers of the Church.
Protestantism being a daughter of Babylon the Prostitute you are all polluted by her fornication with earthly powers. You deny your mother but being her daughter you are contaminated in your mind with her perverted doctrine.
Exodus 25 of the Show Bread yours to read to understand the concept of the real Presence on the Altar.
Cleanse yourself in the bath of the water of the Orthodox Church for you to begin your life in the Messiah. Your opposition to Judaism can not hold like all Protestants you lack proper worship in the Divine Liturgy and you lack communion to the holy mysteries that you have been denied because you are not from the Holy Church. Repent and may be the Lord would have mercy on you for your path is the path of Antichrist like most Protestants for you deny the Coming in flesh of the Messiah in his Church. For we are One with him because we commune to the Bread of Life and drink to the Cup of Salvation the cup of the Spirit.
I am sorry to be that blunt because you become you and the 10000 denominations real counter witnesses to the truth. See the real warning of saint John about your sects:
Beware of Antichrist Deceivers
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. (2 john1)
Conclusion dear David you have been brought forth in the western protestant mentality that has deformed the true Doctrine of Christ. Return to the true Revelation in the teaching of the Apostles and the fathers of the Church and hopefully you will got out of Babylon and her daughters. Courage and blessings to you!
You have gone off track here, and forgotten the NT teaching. I appreciate you dont believe in the believers Messianic Law compared to the OT law as it were. ie Christ fulfilled the Law so we dont have to.
Keeping that in mind, the text you have just quoted is nil and void to the body of Christ, the Church.
Tithes are a command, according to the Law. Quite simply, now believers should give according to the abundance of their hearts, not to the letter of the Law. A heart which God sees. Giving by the letter and command is just a legal ritual, giving from the heart is personal and more rewarding.
Also the Law was given to Israel and Jews, I am neither.
As an add on. MPF stated that h tithed according to Christianity, as ive already shown tithing is not a NT scriptual teaching. However tithing is a Tanach teaching, because you have just rightly pointed it out, so historically h participated in Jewish law.
First of all I don’t care one whit about Xtian teaching. I only have concern for what G-d says and said Through His Torah.
So your basis is because of “personal reward”. Your “personal” satisfaction outweighs what G-d Himself has commanded. HIS commands are a “legal Ritual”? No wonder Xtians have no problem with Jsus behavior towards his parents. No longer is honoring your parents valid but nothing but a legal ritual. Apparently the words of G-d and His Torah are meaningless to you. Certainly Xtianity, as you profess, considers Torah superficial and unworthy of any deliberation. Quite obviously G-d didn’t think so since He instructed His prophets time and again for Israel to observe these same laws.
As written in Devarim:
For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is at all times that we call upon Him?
And which great nation is it that has just statutes and ordinances, as this entire Torah, which I set before you this day?
Or Malachi:
Keep in remembrance the Torah of Moses, My servant-the laws and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.
If your messiah fulfilled a law so “you” don’t have to then taking care of the poor, the widow, the orphan shouldn’t be of any concern to you. I suggest your issue is with G-d, as when He speaks to Isaiah
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, “Come, let us go up to the Lord’s mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths,” for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
So we would have to believe everything contained in the Prophets and throughout Tanach are done away with the ending of the law, and mankind should live in anarchy, which IS when society is devoid of laws.
Sorry for having to reply in this manner. Not all answers have a reply link??
When Jesus was referring to The said individuals as being children of there father the devil, He was contextually talking about His claims and the authenticity of His claims, those claims being rejected.
What He definitely wasn’t speaking about was His coming death. The Jewish non believers were not or doing Jesus a favour. I will state though, that they didnt do themselves or any future generations any favours.
The Kingdom was offered, but the offer was rejected.
However I will say again that by Israels national rejection of Jesus as Messiah did me personally a favour, by Gods sovereign grace, through His Son, I have redemption from my sin.
Jesus came to die either way. Gods plan was for His Son to die. The blood attonement was going to happen come what may. Thats why I quote Gen 3:15 as the first Messianic prophecy.
You will see many times the texts, “that His time was not yet at hand” etc etc.
This is the reason why the twisterd claim that Jews murdered Jesus are so stupid. A simple reading of scripture shows Jesus gave His life for the Sins of man. Jew or gentile.
Do you think that giving from the heart through love is greater or less than giving from a command? Because one has to?
Example
If s husband told his wife 10 times aday that he loved her, you would think and hope the wife would be happy. However if the wife complained to her husband about his affections, you would ask whats the problem.
The wife says, you never mean it, its just a ritual. 10 times aday you repeat it. But where’s the love, why don’t YOU tell me that you love me, in your own words, from the heart. Just once from the real you would outweigh the written command.
The husband answers and says, why should I, when the Law is enough.
Pauls letters are very clear on how Holy the Law is. The problem with the Law is that, it was a tempoary guide for man, and not a means of salvation, and the Law shows Gods righteous standards, not mans. The fullest completed works of the Law were of the heart through Christ, who is the Law, which supercedes the written letter.
It wasnt the original word that Jesus took issue with, it was the way it was being used.
If the written Law was still in force today, today you would be preparing a one of three trips this year to visit Jerusalem and continue in Gods commands. The temple would still be functioning etc. But it doesnt because Israels Messiah fullfilled all that was required.
God would be asking you to fulfil a law requirement which is impossible. God doesn’t work like that. But He has given you a prophet, priest and King. Its just up to you to accept Him.
Just to add, the world is not in anarcy at this moment in time. Seeing that not one country even Israel lives by the Torah Laws shows you something. Most countries do live by a law or a moral code. Some more than otheres, some less, but a law of such is in place. Buts its not Torah.
You have to ask the question, if the Torah Law is able to redeem oneselfs, and its obligations are for Israel, a safe gaurding for a blessed life, one has to ask, why the persecution over 2000 yrs. God said I will bless you if you keep my Law. He never said follow my ways and I will send persecution on you.
Paul the Law is love – the law commands love But none of this is relevant God says that the Law is permanent and the fact that we cannot do all of the laws all of the time has no bearing on that As for your question about the persecution – we never said that we are fulfilling the law the way it is supposed to be fulfilled – we all need to improve
Yours is Not a valid analogy. Is it better to obey G-d’s commandment or not. Just as Israel said upon receiving the commandments, “we will do and we will listen”.
The same with a wife, it is incumbent upon the man to please his wife.
If that is the way Paul is to be understood, that Torah is “temporary” then he calls G-d a liar. He says it is for throughout your generations. It also says to the thousandth generation. Have we reached a thousand generations.
You also deny what the prophets say. Ezekiel is clear that when the third temple is built all will be as it was. It also says of that time that nations will come to Jerusalem because from there Torah goes forth to the world. It also says those nations who do not come to Jerusalem to observe Sukkot will not receive rain in its time. These are all examples that show you Paul doesn’t know what he is talking about.
G-d also says it is NOT impossible to follow. This is a Xtan invention and has no basis from G-d. Torah is still followed this day by more and more Jews, and the numbers keep rising. It is only YOUR god that doesn’t work like that. Our G-d, Hashem, does work like that.
And that is precisely Why Israel is under so many difficulties. If Torah were being followed, especially Shemittah, their enemies would fade away. This has always been the problem and persists today. What we have now is the Erev Rav and a secular government. Instead, what we have is a country who persecutes primarily the religious. As has been taught, if all Israel would keep two Shabbats in succession Mashiach would come immediately. Unfortunately we have people who are more interested in being a “Western style nation” than being Torah observant. Israel was never meant to have a Greco-Roman style country. As it was in Torah times there are those who want a King, “like the other nations”, and That is the beginning of trouble. G-d never promised that if a “few” would be righteous that would be sufficient. This is the lesson from Sinai, ALL Israel said with One voice, “we will do and we will listen”. As it says in Ezra
“The people then assembled as (one man) to Jerusalem”
What did Israel do to receive such a chastisement?
Between the first and second temple how many years of punishment?
First temple destruction: destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE when they sacked the city.; reconstruction date around 538 BCE completed in 515 BCE.. The delta was 70 years between the destruction of the 1st and the completion of the 2nd temple.
For 585 years till year 70 AD the second temple stood. Year 70 AD complete destruction till now no new temple… Why is that?
Could it be that the death of the Messiah cursed the Jewish people for all those years? According to the Gospel of Luke the Messiah said:
34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Obviously the plea to forgiveness to the Father Almighty did not prevent Him to destroy the Second Temple. Therefore how can you explain your walk according to the will of God when He chastise you for more than 19 centuries? Can you be sure to walk according to his will?
Christian
If the rejection of Jesus brought this suffering upon us – it saved us from the greater evil – it saved us from being the perpetrators of this suffering. Instead of worrying about us – why don’t you worry about yourself – if Jesus is supposed to bring light into the world why did he bring so much hate, small-mindedness and death?
After everything is said and done – our history is a blessing compared to yours
ypf, you seem to be unteachable, repeating the same blame over and over again .
“if Jesus is supposed to bring light into the world why did he bring so much hate, small-mindedness and death?
It is not jesus who brings the hate saying “have love for one another”.
It is people who reject God’s word and misusing it take it against others. God can bring you so much light but if you have clouds you won’t see it. The same it is with people who misuse, twist it and cover the truth from others, or hide the light with their sins and evil actions.
“ypf, you seem to be unteachable, repeating the same blame over and over again ”
Is that Your purpose here, to “teach US”. Really??
The problem is, you have been unable to provide any convincing arguments. Your entire analysis is based upon circular reasoning. The Rabbi is right, you have no concept of our beliefs. A good example is not a single Xtian was even aware that the Xtian text speaks of Gentiles keeping the “Noachide Laws”. They ALL imagined it was some recent Rabbinic invention. There are a great many other examples also. So, we can conclude we know Your bible better than Xtians do.
sharbano, “The problem is, you have been unable to provide any convincing arguments.”
Even a convincing argument will be nothing for somebody who is unable to open himself to the spoken words. So I am not concerned about you ‘ being convinced or not” . You may be listening and never hearing, seeing and being unable to perceive… But keep praying to God for the answer.
You simply see no need for God using a person for our redemption. If you do not see a reason, you will try to find arguments against Jesus in every of his words and all cgristianity will look foolish to you.
It’s quite the interesting dichotomy.
It can be said that No one has come to Jsus, intellectually, or analytically. The analytically approach has never worked. By all accounts it has been through emotional distress. Michael Brown is the epitome of this. He has detailed his “come to Jsus” moment many times.
It is also fascinating that Torah was written and formulated in such a way that requires an analytical approach. Rashi is the epitome of This approach. Therefore, the Jew has been accustomed to relying on This approach.
This is the dichotomy. The analytically approach cannot stand on emotion, and an emotional bond cannot be analytical. One is “What do I do for G-d”, and the other is “What does G-d do for me”. It is epitomized in the Cautionary vs. Directive rules.
Directive being :”Do to others what you want them to do to you”
Cautionary being: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow”
Directive imposes Your will on others, whereas cautionary doesn’t seek your will on others, but attempts to not be the source of any one’s will, thus Free Will.
An extreme case would be that a masochist would be allowed to be a sadist, according to the Directive.
We are told WHY the punishment between the First and Second Temples. It was because of Shemittah violations. Also your dates on wrong with the Babylonians. The total is 490 years as told by Daniel.
If the death of your messiah was what was to happen WHY would THAT be cause for destruction. It SHOULD be just the opposite. Instead there were the Xtian and a number of others who split the Jewish nation. The divisions are the cause. Furthermore, Jsus was the worst culprit. Not only did he Not help heal divisions he did everything he could to create even more.
Concerned Reader says:
August 1, 2015 at 6:56 pm
Even if the verses in the NT that call Jews “children of the Devil,” etc. could be radically reinterpreted it doesn’t change the fact that for at least 1800 years of Christian history, Christians themselves, along with their sanctioned reading of scripture, canon of laws, and actions have done evil against Jews with those NT texts, without cause.
Hello
Again I will show you the error of mistaken rendering of scripture.
You state that Jesus is calling Jews “children of the devil”. I take it from that, you are assuming that Jesus is calling ALL Jews devils.?
Thats exactly what happened to fuel Jewish persecution. Scripture being read to to suit there own agendas and beliefs.
Your beliefs are different, but the context is still taken out of context.
Jesus is NOT calling ALL Jews children of the devil. Contextually He is aligning the Jews He is directly talking too, children of the devil. He is using that language in context, because the devil is the father of lies, and the Jews to whom He is addresses are in agreement with the devil. The devil is their father, the father of lies, not the Father of Heaven, The God of Israel. They confess that Adonai is their Father, but actually they are rejecting Him, because they are rejecting His Son.
Yes its a direct rebuke, Jesus is saying what is.
Im not trying to soften the text here.
Im sure the disciples would have something to say if Jesus were painting all Jews as devils children. And Im sure the NT would not have been written by Jews if their teacher thought His own disciples as devils.
I dont disagree with you that these texts have been used to fuel pogroms etc. That is obvious, but now you seem to agree with the antisemitic.
If you dont agree with the antisemitic, then you must admit the other, that the NT doesnt teach antisemitism? You cannot sit on both sides of the fence. But thats the strange thing here, you are focusing on what isnt taught, and dismissing everything that is, just like the antisemitic. Odd???
If you read the passage in question again, with the view of what ive just said, you will see what I mean. If you cant see it, its because you read it like they do. Out of context.
Paul Jesus is “explaining” that the reason people reject him is because they are children of the devil – as if there is no moral justification for questioning his ridiculous claims. That is dehumanizing your opponents
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?(1John 3 NKJV)
compared with
Isaiah 1:3-5 (NKJV)
3 The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.”
4 Alas, sinful nation,
A people laden with iniquity,
A brood of evildoers,
Children who are corrupters!
They have forsaken the Lord,
They have provoked to anger
The Holy One of Israel,
They have turned away backward.
Anti-humans, anti-africans, anti-semite, anti-christians, anti-…. all evil comes from a perverted heart, not from Scriptures telling the truth. We must combat all forms of evil and not take religion as a pretext to justify our perverted hearts. All men are sinners and all must repent and walk according to the will of God.
Christian You write that all evil comes from a perverted heart – I agree to you – the question we are discussing is – did a perverted heart write the book of John?
I may understand that you rebuke John rebuke of the Jewish Authority. But I am no expert, is it not true that the Jewish Authority were Sadducee who were enemy of the Christ and the Pharisees. Is it not true that many Pharisees were calling Yeshua Rabbi and were debating with him like all rabbis debated among themselves on points of the Torah.
John Gospel is written after the Temple destruction having been witness of the consequence of having rejected the Son of God which as a penalty for the Jewish Nation would be immense. Is he not rightly fire up against the Jewish Authority for having conducted the Jewish Nation to dispersion and perdition for centuries and centuries. What will be the amount of suffering the Messiah predicted when he said:
”31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”
John reaction is made with zeal for the truth and holy anger at the Jewish Authority for being a prophet he saw in consequences what it will bear for his People. He rebuked for love of his brethren that it might wake them up on the grave sin they made in delivering the Christ to the pagans. Is it not forbidden for a Jew to deliver to the Gentiles another Jew. Crime was made. A charge has been made that History has shown us how bad it was for the Jewish Nation to have rejected their own Messiah.
As an Orthodox Christian all Canonized Scriptures Jewish and Christian by the Orthodox Church are for us the word of God and we can not reject not even a word. It is like in Orthodox Judaism were each word of the Torah can not be rejected if you still want to be considered as a Jew. The word of God is the word of God.
Now as witness of the Orthodox Church what John wrote in his Gospel and his letter and his Revelation is the word of God for like Moses he has seen the Glory of God and has touch the Messiah of Israel and we believe our forefathers in the glorious Faith. We love you and we love all of God creation. If some of my brothers have persecuted or did wrong on you and your people I will ask personally for your forgiveness and ask you to pray for me a sinner.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you always and may you continue to love more and more your people and may He one day reunite Ephraim and Judah!
Christian You don’t seem to get it – the issue is not – “who” Jesus is rebuking – the issue is – what is he saying – and he is saying that rejecting him is not because he didn’t fulfill even one prophecy that would justify his claims – but that anyone who rejects him MUST be a lover of darkness and a child of the devil
It is More likely that the events of that time, and the Churban, were the result of sects like Xtians, Sadducees, Hellenists, Essenes etc that strayed far from Torah. It was ONLY those who associated with the Pharisees that survived from that time until today. ALL those sects, including Xtianity, died out. Any semblance of Judaism within Xtianity was soon expunged when it became Roman. It is Quite interesting that a person named Saul would become a Roman name, Paul, As a result he would argue Against Torah and the requirement of Gentiles keeping the Noachide laws. He would cause much dissension within the ranks, and Then went only to those Gentiles who had no background in Judaism. He would thus be the only arbiter of truth, his own truth. Since those Gentiles didn’t have access to the Jewish texts they weren’t aware of all his distortions of those texts. They were unwilling participants of the deception.
The Roman church is the Roman church. Orthodox churches are from the root of Judaism. You should study more your claim that Christianity is only Roman. That is not the reality. And the sect of Christianity did survive. Of course it is not a question of numbers. But in History Christian Orthodox have been persecuted by the Romans. Please read the real story of the Crusades and how they persecuted us.
Therefore pull out your American Protestant and Roman glasses and go ask rabbis in Russia about Orthodoxy they may tell you a different story.
Concerning Saint John his Gospel is without any reproach for it is the word of God decided and canonized by the Assembly of the ancients the bishops of the Lord. You are opposing our sacred text on the basis of human perceptions and misconceptions. The assembly (council) of bishops and the Church has canonized those text it is not permitted for Christians Orthodox to even questioned it as it is not permitted for you to questioned the Tanakh which was canonized by the assembly of your ancients. Therefore respect of each other is the basis of any discussion or debate. Questioning the word of any Scriptures bring unbelief to which the world is now plagued.
I will say something bold: destroy all the Orthodox Churches in the world where the Divine Liturgy is performed and hell will come on earth. Look how the enemy is destroying the Christians of the Middle East that will bring Hell in the Middle East including Israel and accelerate the venue of the Antichrist. We are the intercessors of the world destroy us and the world will become a desert.
Now I respect you and consider you but spreading disbelief and non-respect of our sacred Text is promoting irreligion to which you become unrighteous for righteousness comes from faith in God to which He gives his grace to accomplish his Holy will. We are to combat evil and impiousness not religious people and doers of good. Please be careful! Thank you!
How can it be from the root of Judaism when it is antithetical to Torah. You’ve had to twist and distort the words of Torah in order to fabricate an eternal messiah, son-god. What is pervasive throughout Tanach is G-d needs No One else, yet Xtianity says a single man, a created being, is the one who brings redemption. You have engineered a doctrine that says G-d shares His glory with another being when G-d says He shares His Glory with no one.
If your texts are such a sacred text why did Stephen, who was guided by a Xtian holy spirit, speak with so many mistakes. If it’s From G-d it HAS to be without errors Or mistakes. By his account we can dismiss the entirety of the Xtian text. It it’s the word of G-d it HAS to be an inerrant word of G-d, otherwise it is not the word of G-d.
Christian
Are you saying that we should respect the holy books of Islam, Hinduism and Mormonism also because they were canonized by an assembly of religious people? This makes no sense can you explain yourself?
First Rabbi you asked: ” Christian Are you saying that we should respect the holy books of Islam, Hinduism and Mormonism also because they were canonized by an assembly of religious people? This makes no sense can you explain yourself?”
Very interesting question: 1) on an Orthodox basis all other religion other than Orthodoxy are false for having heretical views on God or misconceptions or false teaching or simply incomplete doctrines.
Islam for instance teaches the belief in One God like all monotheistic Religion including Orthodox Christianity even though you might disagree. Islam teaches that Yeshua was a true prophet and born of the Virgin Mary. It follows the Torah in many aspect. Islam to my humble opinion seems a religion that promote religiousness and fight impiousness. Therefore I respect my brother Muslim. Their women are modest and dressed modestly. The veiled their hairs like in Orthodox churches when we worship. They eat Kosher food and many good things. Have they some misconceptions on certain things? I will let the One God judge them for who am I to judge them. They are the son of Ishmael and just for that they are praiseworthy for Ishmael was a son of Abraham our father in the faith.
Hinduism is very difficult to accept for Monotheistic religions having a multitude of false gods to whom they worship. They are one of the last remaining polytheistic religion and on an Orthodox point of view they are idolaters. One time an Orthodox Monk went in a visiting tour to visit India and something very strange happened, while approaching an ancient pagan temple he felt in the air a power of marvels and fascinations and reacted by invoking the prayer of the holy name of Yeshua Son of God pray for me a sinner. The spirit of marvels rapidly stop is charming presence and when he past by the guru of the place this guru looked at him with evil eyes. On that basis Hinduism is one of the last pagan religion instated by the influence of demonic forces.
Mormonism is a religion who came from a Freemason Joseph Smith that got a special revelation where basically the Messiah and the Lucifer are brothers. They have a special book and an assembly of so-called prophets and so on. I have talked with them and like many cults they are mainly a regionally based sect addressed to the American mindset. They certainly will never take old in all nations for they are very sectarian.
Now back to Orthodoxy! It is very important to understand the major differences between the Roman church and her daughters the many Protestant Sects and the Orthodox Church. Romanism is a Prostitute that morphs herself with the wind of the moment. Their belief have some truth for She took it from the Orthodox Church but the Papacy for us Orthodox is anti-Christian and ante-Christ ante in the Greek sense of taking the place of God and promoting as being the supreme spiritual power on this earth. This is false doctrine and highly prideful. The sin of Rome is pride and vain glory substituted herself to the Messiah and changing time and belief to suit pagan Roman emperors.
The Orthodox Church kept the Divine Liturgy from the beginning and works in Council and Synods the equivalent of the ancient Sanhedrin. Even our Liturgy is based on the Judaism of the Second temple. In all Orthodox churches we have the Holy of holies with the Menorah with seven candles and the Book of Holy Scriptures on the Altar. We have the consecrated bread, the Bread of the Presence on the Altar in the Tabernacle.
The Table of Showbread
…29″You shall make its dishes and its pans and its jars and its bowls with which to pour drink offerings; you shall make them of pure gold. 30″You shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before Me at all times. (Exodus 25)
In conclusion the Orthodox Church is the accomplishment of the Second Temple Judaism. We are the keepers of the Temple service in all our churches. We are the keepers of the Orthodox Way the Right Path who brings us to salvation and the exaltation of our beings in the Heavens. We love our brothers Jews and we look forward to discuss with respect our common roots.
As a seed grows and develops her roots the tree grow to what is different from the appearance of the roots but by the dna we know that the fruits of this tree comes from the roots that we do not see anymore. Ancient Judaism is the root of all Monotheistic Religion and the common trunk is the Messiah where the branches of the multiple churches gives us the many fruits which are the saints.
Christian So you acknowledge that just because some people call their books “religious works” – that doesn’t mean that we need to automatically respect them (at least in the cases of Hinduism and Mormonism) – this being the case you cannot demand that we respect your Christian Scriptures
Hello YPF
Questioning Jesus claims isnt the actual issue. All things must be tested. The apostles taught to check and verify all claims regarding spiritual matters. Its totally rejecting His claims which is the issue.
The reason Jesus is so emphatic with His rebuke to the Jewish audience is because they should have known better. Being recievers of the Law, The oracles of God, they were in a unique position compared to the gentiles.
The wording dehumanised is only used by non believers. Its a word which you use and attatch to the text to strengthen your viewpoint. Its also a view which the antisemitic uses to beat Jews.
You state the claims were ridiculous, Jesus authenticated His claims dozens of times. It was this audience that Jesus took issue with.
Would you say that Adonai was dehumanising gentiles when He told Joshua, Saul to wipe certain tribes and nations, thats men, women and children, from the face of the earth?
No.
If you compare the two, a rebuke is just that, a rebuke.
Yisroel you base your belief system on miracles. Your discredit all miracles or signs and wonders and you put Mosheh miracle of Elohim speaking to the People as the one Miracle to be believed. Hmm that is basing your faith still on a miracle when we know that faith is walking with confidence in the Presence of YHWH knowing that He will always be their for us.
Abraham is the father in the Faith not Mosheh. Mosheh is the Law giver a prophet. Without Abraham act of pure faith in Elohim, Mosheh and all the People would had not existed.
Miracles proves nothing and maybe given to the weak to test their faith and give them a sort of physical proof of the invisible reality.
Miracles also should be evaluated by degree of power:
1) an elohim talking to a People is not the most powerful miracle proving or giving Mosheh authority any false-demon gods could do the same with YHWH permission to fool the crowd. See Hindus miracles and all demonic manifestations in this pagan land…
2) the miracle the lepers hand or the stick changing to a serpent are old magician tricks of Egypt that do not give anything but only impress weak minds
3) the miracle of the sun is impressive for it requires much more power to do but still with Elohim permission a powerful angel could do it
4) now walking on waters should not be considered also as a powerful proof but could be done by invisible beings sustaining your body… see the many cases of levitation which proves nothing
5) the miracle of the multiplication of bread and fish that starts to become very impressive and powerful but people could alleged that it can not be seen by many
6) the only miracle that can give authority to a prophet is the miracle of Eliyahu and Yahushuo: the Resurrection of the dead for no earthly or angelic powers can do it. Only the Elohim can resurrect a dead body.
Now the testimony of the Gospel gives many such miracles but the most striking to a crowd of many including many Pharisees is the miracle of the resurrection of Lazarus dead in a tomb for 4 days already smelling and decomposing… That is only POSSIBLE by The ELOHIM alone no entity angelic or human, demonic or holy can do it without the Hand of Eloah that is impossible… That is a powerful proof that trumps all pagan or mosaic miracles.
For who is the Master of the Resurrection??
I Am the Resurrection and the Life (Gospel of John 11)
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles[a] away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
Jesus and Death, the Last Enemy
28 And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was[b] in the place where Martha met Him. 31 Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”[c]
32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”
33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?”
They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”
35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”
37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”
Lazarus Raised from the Dead
38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[d] And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. 46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us[e] that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death. 54 Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with His disciples.
55 And the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went from the country up to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves. 56 Then they sought Jesus, and spoke among themselves as they stood in the temple, “What do you think—that He will not come to the feast?” 57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a command, that if anyone knew where He was, he should report it, that they might seize Him.
Eliyahu Moses was the greatest prophet as testified in Scripture – Deuteronomy 34:10-12. Your theory is obviously false. Miracles are not measured by how difficult they are to do – God can do anything – even provide a test to see if we will follow the false prophet. The question is – how much credibility does God allow the prophet to have – Exodus 19:9.
Yisroel what is your authority to decree that my exposition of the gradation of miracles is false? Is it to disturbing to face the truth?
Mosheh certainly was a great prophet : 10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face…(Deuteronomy 34)
That does not make him our father in the Faith which is Abraham
It seems that you make him an idol to be worshipped
That does not make him greater than the Messiah Elohim who saved us from the Spiritual Egypt
That does not make him the living Torah
Who did Moseh saw face to face? Who is this form of YHWH? (Number 12)
Now the Resurrection is not a test of the Elohim but His Promise to us? It is a pillar of the Jewish and Christian Faith, you know that?? Who is the Master of the Resurrection is ONLY THE ONE ELOHIM.
A dead for 4 days as Lazarus (Gospel of John 11) risen from decomposition is only possible by the Elohim. That miracle alone made the population of Yerushala’im accept Yahushuo with palm leaves proclaiming him as the Messiah. Those who saw this amazing miracle accepted his Testimony but you and your sect rejected Him for you were more attached to your sacrificial system and your man made religion that the true Religion based on the Faith of our forefathers whom is first Abraham who had faith in YHWH knowing that sanctifying his son he will be resurrected a type the Son to be sacrificed for the redemption of our sins, him the Innocent Lamb of Passover.
Conclusion: The real faith is in the Resurrection the only true Miracle only capable to be performed by Elohim Himself. Bless is He who came and come and his coming in the Name of YHWH!!
Eliyahu The Torah testifies that the false prophet can do a miracle – not that he could do it but that God will do it through him in order to test us (Deuteronomy 13:3,4). The Torah does not limit the miracle and say – aha! – but a resurrection is different. Therefore Eliyahu – your words contradict the Torah – so I cannot accept them and you cannot expect anyone who loves God to accept them.
Yisroel your argument is nil for it would have been valid if Yahushuo was redirecting worship toward idols. The Resurrection of Lazarus was a clear sign that his word was true for He only preached the worship of the FATHER YHWH
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.[b] 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11
Give us this day our daily bread.
12
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
He only preached the worship of the FATHER YHWH
THEN WHY DO YOU insist that people PRAY TO JESUS AND INSIST ON APPROACHING G-D through him.
ypfriend, So there are more trustworthy miracles than the others – according to you. Some shouldn’t prove anything, , the others do. The miracle at Sinai was most trustworthy. But resurrection? No? You claim it is nothing, even if it happened- that conclusion can be made based on your message about resurrection. ( So I am not focusing on proving it did or not). I can only say that I can choose between a group of those who tried to find every way to falsify the resurrection fact or I can choose between those who witnessed it and believed. Who is more trustworthy? Those pharisees who witnessed previously lazarus’ resurrection looked for ways to kill him to get rid of any evidence ( especially resurrection done by Jesus) . They are the same who
‘ missed a sign of Jesus resurrection’ somehow… or just failed to believe . The same way like they tried to make sure nobody would know about Lazarus being risen from the dead by Jesus, the same way they made sure in their news that Jesus’s never rose from the dead.
Back to whether resurrection is a trustworthy miracle or a miracle that can be done by any false prophet to deceive people. OT lists only two people among ONLY God’s righteous people who had a privilege to perform that miracle ( Elisha, Elijah) . As power over death and life belongs strictly to God He is not giving it to ANYBODY just because , nor anybody can just ‘request ‘ it for his deceiving, evil purposes. There was no single person that could just ‘play’ with that power to deceive others and rise others including himself. God’s justice ( sin resulting in death) would be compromised if anybody- a false prophet took that power and could make himself alive anytime he wanted. I =guess – we would have lots of immortal people nowadays.
Jesus is the third person God gave the privilege to raise others from the dead. He also rose Jesus back to life as a proof of his righteousness.
Eric,
I can see the offense that you feel, written all over your comment. And I understand why you feel this way. It is difficult to hear that one’s faith may be invested in the wrong being. No one likes to face the possibility that he has been deceived, whether by a salesman, a politician, or a religious leader. And when one has invested his emotions is a leader, it becomes hard to hear, not only that that he has been fooled, but that his leader, whom he loves, is not who he thought he was. Yet, we must all face the possibility that we have erred, and we must face the possibility that those we love have been unworthy of our devotion. It will be better for us to face that reality, than to keep giving ourselves to a deceiver.
But how will we know who is the deceiver? You have attributed great deception to the Pharisees. You have implied that they tried to cover up the resurrection, a charge you get from Matthew, I know. You also accuse them of wanting to kill Lazarus, based on the John. And you ask, “Who is trustworthy?”
You should have asked that before privately trying the Pharisees. You have assumed their guilt, based on no evidence except on the say-so of their enemies. (Do you even have two witnesses?)
I think we should investigate Matthew and John, and see if they are trustworthy. Is the way they portray their opponents fair? Is it true? Before I investigate this matter, however, I think would like to take a short detour.
Christians are often capable of deception in order to promote their cause. I once came across a missionary site called jewsforjudaism2000. What is wrong with this? This is an obvious deception. The missionary is hoping to catch the unwary and snare them in his web. He does not present Judaism. Instead he presents his Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53. As far as I can tell, he never updates. Isaiah 53 is his pet scripture, and he misrepresents himself, making a pretense of Judaism, hoping, I am sure, to attract people googling “Jews for Judaism”.
The modern Christian movement has made a habit of deceiving people. This is one reason for the rise of “Messianic Judaism.” Judaizing their Christianity, they hope to make it palatable to the Jewish people. Put a kippah on: your Christianity becomes Jewish. Don tefillin: your Christianity becomes Jewish. Explore the Hebrew language: Jewish.
But this is modern Christianity. While it proves to be untrustworthy, that does not mean that its founders were untrustworthy. If you said this, you were right.
But how can we know? What if Matthew lied about the Pharisees? How will we know if he told the truth or not? Certainly we know that he was not an eyewitness to the Pharisees’ cover up of the resurrection. Conspiracies are not done publicly. We seem to be at an impasse. He could be trustworthy, but I do not know.
Or I would not know if I had not read his book, already. But a careful reading of Matthew reveals that Matthew would say whatever was necessary to prove his belief system. One need only look at his use of the prophets to see that Matthew has not made the truth a priority. His very first employment of a prophecy, Isaiah 7.14, he not only takes out of context, but literally alters the text. He changes the words. I am not referencing turning a “young woman” into a “virgin” either. Isaiah says that the mother of the child would name him Immanuel. Matthew says that “they,” whoever they are, would call him Immanuel. Why? Because Jesus’ name was not Immanuel, and if you want to make it so Isaiah is talking about Jesus, you have to alter the prophecy.
Matthew regularly alters the prophets to suit his agenda. These alterations do not have to be direct changes of the text, like he does with Isaiah 7.14. With Hosea 11.1, he alters the meaning of the prophecy by quoting only a few words so that the reader will not realize that the subject is Israel, not the Messiah. So, now, let us return to the question: is Matthew trustworthy?
The answer is obvious. He is not. Matthew has no respect for the words of the prophets. He does not mind altering the words of God. He certainly cannot be trusted not to make up lies about his opponents. The fact that he attributes a conspiracy to cover up the resurrection to them does not make it true. And, inasmuch as he has shown no respect for the truth thus far, I have no reason to believe that he is not merely maligning his opposition. It is easy to avoid answering their objections if he makes them out to be liars from the beginning. However, it takes very little scrutiny to discover that Matthew is himself a liar, and his accusations are not to be trusted.
John is a little harder to investigate. He seldom quotes Tanach. He does give a simpleton’s reading of the prohibition to break the bones of the Paschal lamb. But he seldom quotes the scriptures Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled. And his testimony cannot be much verified. He does contradict Matthew on several key points regarding the resurrection, but Matthew has already been shown to be a liar. So John could feasibly be in the right.
But we also see that the author of John has a deep antipathy to the Jews. He maligns them merely for their unbelief. One can see from John 5 and 8, and other places, that according to John, one should have accepted Jesus unquestioningly. The fact that the Jews did not accept Jesus without substantial proof, even while Jesus violated the Sabbath is a problem for John. And so, those who do not believe are to be called “sons of the devil” and the like. John’s vitriol spills out for those who do not unquestioningly submit to the unsubstantiated claims of Jesus.
Can he be trusted to have represented the Pharisees fairly? Obviously the answer is “no”. His gospel is full of excoriation for those who do not blindly believe. Clearly he will have to make the Pharisees into villains, for they are a perceived threat to his new found religion. (Also, according to John, it was not the Pharisees who wanted to assassinate Lazarus, but the chief priests.)
I can understand your frustration at having your faith discussed here. It is hard to recognize that we have been lied to all our lives. It is hard to separate our affection from the object of our affection. But you have unfairly maligned the Pharisees. The NT is an unreliable collection. It clearly maligns all who disagree with it, and it is not above attributing evil plots to its foes. Do not give your faith too readily to that gospels which shows itself to be untrustworthy, nor malign those whose testimony you never heard.\
Jim
Jim, you are wrong.I don’t feel frustrated . You are trying impose feelings on someone that are not there. I am simply sorry for you all unable to see the truth . Going around with many words but not responding strait.
Jim, you focus on Matthew and John. But NT message is not a message of just two people living at the same time but 27 books written by different authors in different time period confirming the same facts about Jesus . Events with correlation in every book and agreement of the truth presented about how God speaks through His son. Events with testimonies of completely different people confirming the same facts. Events with correlation to OT truth that mankind needs the redemption not just from the enemies but the death and bondage of sin. And simply; gospels are the message with call to repentance and coming to God and message of His forgiveness before Go;s time of judgement comes. It opened the door for many people among the nations to hear the message of God’s forgiveness and come to God. If it opposes anybody it is those who themselves opposed that truth.
Eric,
If you reread my comments, you will see they were in response to your claim that the Pharisees are not trustworthy. You chose to emphasize events that happened only in their two books, events which prove to your mind the untrustworthiness of the Pharisees. But you accepted those stories uncritically. Those authors were not trustworthy.
Regarding the rest of the NT, it is not trustworthy either. Paul misrepresents Tanach regularly. Hebrews misrepresents Tanach. And it is evident that the NT writers had a poor understanding of the Torah system in general.
But I am glad to see that you are willing to admit that Matthew and John are untrustworthy, at least. If you continue investigating the other books of the NT, you will soon see that they are also not to be trusted.
Paul is particularly without merit. As I mentioned, he misrepresents Torah at regularly. But he also misrepresented himself. It is not credible that he was a student of Gamliel as he claimed. For one thing, he persecuted the Christians according to Acts. Yet, according to the same book, Gamliel was against that sort of thing. Paul does not seem to be much of a student. Moreover, Paul was working for the chief priests, Sadducees. This is also highly unlikely, if he was a Pharisee. The two groups were quite opposed to one another.
Because I focused on the two gospels you spotlighted does not mean that the rest of the NT is trustworthy. Far from it! I only chose those two because you had relied upon their testimony in your comments.
Jim
Jim “But I am glad to see that you are willing to admit that Matthew and John are untrustworthy,” Really did I say that? Did I admit that?wow! That is what I don’t like people are doing on that site ; suggesting something that wasn’t said. Anyways no point for me to stretch the discussion about NT being not-trusty. The events in the NT books speak for themselves. Pharisees are not in my spotlight as they are not the main message of the gospels. God’s forgiveness is. Keep your beliefs for yourself, definitely I won’t share them as the truth about the need for what Jesus did goes along with what God said in OT.
Jim, I mentioned Paul , Peter ,John, James ONLY in relation to discussing the Jewish authors and disciples who witnessed Jesus or participated in his life who later wrote the events down. The reason for spotlighting these few.
Eric You are not fighting with me – you are fighting with God’s word. Deuteronomy 13:2(3) clearly says that miracles prove nothing – it gives no limit to the miracle. It doesn’t say “only small miracles.” It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it – again – this is not my idea – it is Scripture – Exodus 19:9
Hi Yisroel,
You wrote:
“It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it – again – this is not my idea – it is Scripture – Exodus 19:9”
My response:
Actually it is both. You can’t have one without the other. If no one is present to hear the tree fall in the forest, then it is irrelevant. And if the tree doesn’t fall, then no one will hear even if they are present.
The people witnessed many, many miracles establishing the authority of Moses. It was a continuous and frequent process. If they witnessed ordinary events they would have no reason to trust Moses over anyone else. The events had to be miraculous in nature, and someone had to witness them.
Exodus 19:9
9 Then the YHWH said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, in order that the people may hear when I speak with you and so trust you ever after.”
Early on, prior to Mount Sinai, Moses and the Israelites believed because of the miracles of the staff/snake, leprous hand, and water of the Nile to blood.
Exodus 4: 1 – 9
Exodus 4: 30 – 31
The Israelites again learn to believe/trust in the YHWH and Moses because of another miracle; this time the crossing of the Reed Sea.
Exodus 14:31
And the miracles are not limited to the benefit of the Israelites:
The Egyptians eventually come to understand by way of miracles that the God of the Hebrews is the YHWH.
Exodus 14: 4, 18
The Gentiles (outside of Egypt, beginning with Jethro) began to believe that the YHWH was God of the universe after hearing reports of the miracles performed (10 plagues and crossing of the Reed Sea) which resulted in the deliverance of the Israelites:
Exodus 18: 10 – 11
Rehab the prostitute (and others in Jericho) came to believe after hearing reports of the miracles perform and the defeat of enemy kings that the YHWH is indeed God in heaven and earth.
Joshua 2: 8 – 11
Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Aram, came to understand, due to a miracle which healed him of a skin disease, that the God of the Israelites was the ONLY God in all the earth.
2 Kings 5:15
Through God’s miracle of dwelling among the Israelites beginning at Mount Sinai, it was reaffirmed that He is the YHWH, their God who brought them out of Egypt.
Exodus 29: 45, 46
Upon entering the promised land, the Israelites believed in Joshua as they believed in Moses through God’s miracle at the Jordan crossing.
Joshua 3:7, 13; 4:14
And on and on and on …
David I was responding to Eric’s point that accuses me of favoring one miracle over another – and my response was that Moses’ special status – above that of other prophets leans on Exodus 19:9. The miracles also play a role in this matter – as is obvious from Deuteronomy 34:10-12, but this has nothing to do with Eric’s argument that one miracles is somehow superior to another – it has to do with the credibility of the miracle. And I acknowledge that miracles confirm the status of a prophet WITHIN the context of the Law of Moses – now that the Law of Moses is here.
Ypfriend, you didn’t really address the main points I put down. Would God give a ‘deceiver’ a right to resurrection; bringing others back to life ? He clearly showed in OT that no-one except His servant was given that privilege. You focused mainly on that conclusion ” It is not the “miracle” of Sinai that affirms Moses’ status of a prophet – it is the fact that a nation witnessed God speaking to him that affirms it ”
To affirm the status of a prophet is not based on the amount of people witnessing a miracle. There could be thousands also witnessing a deceiving miracle so that is not proving the credibility of a prophet either. I am not having anything against miracle on Sinai . I mentioned it it while discussing the bases of credibility.
Eric You ask if God would allow a deceiver to preform a miracle – and the answer is YES! – And God says so Himself – he says that the false prophet brings about a sign and a wonder in order to test us if we love God – Deuteronomy 13:4(5)
Yisroel you deformed the ruah of the Torah. False miracles are there denounced and warming against them are made especially if they teach against the Torah and entice to follow other gods.
But here the Resurrection of Lazarus 4 days in the tomb is not an illusion and YHWH is not a deceiver when the Messiah rose him from the dead. Plus the Messiah did teach to follow other gods but only the Father in the Heavens YHWH.
But let us set this aside and ask us about you observing Torah. If you accuse the Christian of idolatry and their leaders teach about idolatry why don’t you wage war against them??
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Are you going to stone people like the Taliban??
Eliyahu Where does the Torah say anything about illusions? The Torah says that God is testing us – if Jesus would be encouraging worship of God than his followers wouldn’t try to convert worshipers of God. You ask why I don’t stone missionaries? The law only applies when Israel is in its land and the Temple is standing.
Beside for the fact that the law only applies in the Land when the Temple is standing, it only applies to other Jews. Christians and the Taliban are not our brother, son, wife, or friend. Oh, by the way–the Taliban are not guilty of idol worship. They are guilty of murder and other horrible offenses and they, together with their ideological brothers ISIS and Hamas and other terror groups, are the most evil of human beings.
Dear Yisroel, you said: ”if Jesus would be encouraging worship of God than his followers wouldn’t try to convert worshipers of God. You ask why I don’t stone missionaries? The law only applies when Israel is in its land and the Temple is standing.”
1) I never saw any Orthodox Christian doing missionary works for we Yehudim, you must then talking about the pseudo-Christian protestant sect to whom I have apprehensions… For that I can understand you as a brother.
2)Yahushuo said it himself I did not come for the just but the sinners… Case closed!
3)When I defend Christians I defend the true ones the ones loved by the One Elohim against the lies and persecutions they constantly have received by their fellow so-called Christian by fanatic Jews or by Muslim Islamic …
Also when I defend my fellow brothers Yehudim and Israel I do it against the dominant culture against them. Against my own family that do not understand why I do Shabat?
4)Contrary to what you said the Law is not suspended when the Temple is not standing. Moseh stoned without any Temple. My question why in Israel then there is no stoning? And if it was… don’t you think that all the nations will accuse you and make them march against you? You will say Hashem has commanded so… Very dangerous interpretation coming from Levites when our father Yaakov warned us against you guys:
5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers;
Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
6 Let not my soul enter their council;
Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
For in their anger they slew a man,
And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
And their wrath, for it is cruel!
I will divide them in Jacob… (Genesis 49)
I prefer the Master Rabbi Teaching who says: let him being without any sin cast the first stone… Ameen!!
Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple
Dina you differ then from Yisroel view. According to your sect Christian are worst than all the human beings for they are accused of idol worship of a man. Compared to the Taliban may be you should unite with them and kill all the Christians and the Western Civilization…
Your sect Yisroel is very very dangerous the only thing separating you from the Taliban and all Islamist is your weak number which would have been dangerous and a return to the stone age with your stoning and animal sacrifice and your literal and carnal view of the spiritual things… Wow I taught we Yehudim were intelligent but with the wrong sect we can become worst than our enemies… Amazing!
Baruch HaShem Adonai for Yahushuo the Messiah of Israel who taught us the real interpretation of the true Torah!!
There you go again with “your sect”. By the way what is the count of Your Sect. No doubt a sect of “ONE”, you and only you.
How can you say your messiah taught the real Torah when he said so little. It is Paul, a Roman, who did all the teaching. Or is it that you are relying on Stephen’s interpretation. A person you have YET to explain regarding his errors and goes against the foundation of your religion. Why do you hide in fear of the tough questions.
Why do you attack G-d so vehemently. It was G-d who instituted all the laws of Torah and YOU have the audacity to call it “carnal”. Furthermore you have no relevant understanding of the “how” of Torah application of its laws.
Are you really holding up “Western Civilization” as a model. It is wholly corrupt and immoral, as the recent ruling of Toevah marriage. A great many Xtians have no issue with it. It is actually Because of Xtianity that it has come to pass.
Sharbano, Christians have been at the forefront of the opposition to legalizing homosexual marriage. It is secular liberal Leftism, not Christianity, that is responsible. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews are on the secular liberal Left, not with us.
To say that Christians don’t care is simply not true. I read the conservative news every day (such as National Review Online), and they are very distressed by the Supreme Court Ruling.
Of course there are those who will probably continue to oppose it, But, there seems to be a great many who are not voicing Any opposition and will say it’s no big deal. I would say it is “Xtian thinking” that has led us to this point. They will ALL speak of loving the sin and not the sinner. The homosexual community has embraced that “love” and it is That basis for their pursuing agenda, “if two love each other”. I believe it really came to a head with the Westboro church protests and their language that virtually All Xtianity decided to oppose THEM and as a result very few spoke anymore of the “sin”. It’s all been loving the person. Even the religious Glenn Beck has joined with that community. I would say once you have a religion that dispels any notion of the Laws of G-d and it’s on the individual to make the decision you will have a generation of tolerance with the next generation embracing. We have seen each generation tolerating more and more. An analysis of This makes it easy to see the next step in progression.
Lion, you are by far the most hateful person I have ever had the misfortune to meet. Do you actually believe all the venom that you spew, or are you just angry and saying crazy things in your anger?
ypfriend, I didn’t ask just about ANY miracle. I asked about resurrection! Power over death and life that only God himself is in charge of. And if He ever gave it to somebody EXCEPT – His close servants!
Eric The Torah makes no such distinction – the Torah just says that God is testing you – God can do anything – a resurrection is no more difficult for God than stopping the sun or making the grass grow.
Ypfriend. The answer is not too satisfying. There is a difference between deceiving miracle and ‘messing up ‘ with forces; death and life or changing the moon course or the sun route or intensity of light of the stars. There are some things that only God is in charge of. Even Egyptian magicians couldn’t change what God commanded; they couldn’t change days of darkness back into day light, they couldn’t resurrect Faro’s firstborn. God doesn’t allow just anything.
If you don’t make a line to what is of God’s what not; then you have no base to measure the authority that is behind a miracle. Then anything can be just testing, deceiving that doesn’t suit us, and anything we want or suits us we would say its from God. God’s authority over granting power over life and death is confirmed starting in Genesis, resurrection by authority of God in Isaiah 25;8 and Daniel 12 and no ‘deceptive creature’ can ‘mess up’ with it. He is the only one mentioned as the authority of resurrection for a certain purpose. . Resurrection is mentioned as a result of our redemption not a sign of any deception.
Eric, you have so convinced yourself that only a righteous man can perform a resurrection that you fail to take into account that Deuteronomy 13 does not delineate any specific type of miracle.
Both Deuteronomy 18 and 13 teach that in order for a prophet to be accepted, not only must his sign materialize, but more importantly, he must not contradict Torah or introduce a new type of worship.
Deuteronomy 13 does not come with a disclaimer attached that says: if someone comes along and performs a resurrection, then by golly, you must listen to him no matter what he says, because the miracle itself proves he is from God.
You wrote that only God messes with the forces of life and death, but I beg to differ. Humans have a lot of power over life and death. Humans partner with God in bringing life into the world, and humans have the capability of taking life. With modern medicine, humans can bring people back from the brink of death in ways that are surely miraculous. That’s pretty powerful. But on the supernatural level, the witch of Endor raised the spirit of Samuel. She was a witch–not exactly a Godly individual (1 Samuel 28).
Jesus expected his generation to accept him BEFORE the supposed miracle of his resurrection. He constantly berated the Pharisees for not accepting him based on his previous miracles although he CONTRADICTED TORAH and INTRODUCED A NEW TYPE OF WORSHIP. According to your book, he angrily and arrogantly agrees to give them the sign of the resurrection, but then HE FAILS TO FULFILL IT by not appearing to them. You defended this by saying that they were so faithless they wouldn’t have believed him anyway. First, your book does not give a reason for this failure. Second, their lack of faith is irrelevant. If you make a promise, you keep it, period, end of story. You can’t blame the Pharisees for something they might have done anyway if you never gave them the chance to prove themselves. How is that just?
But at the end of the day, the sign ONLY MATTERS if the giver of the sign is aligned with Scripture. Jesus contradicted Scripture by abolishing the kosher laws and declaring himself the lord of the Sabbath (among other things); furthermore, he announced a new type of worship by making himself the mediator between man and God (“For no one comes to the Father but by me”). Therefore, according to Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 the Pharisees MUST REJECT him as a false prophet.
Dina, As ferering to “messing with the forces of life and death” I didn’t mean;humans partner with God in bringing life into the world, and I didn’t mean doctors bringing people back from the brink of death with their modern medical equippment, but I meant resurrection. jesus bringing Lazarus to life ater 4 days of the body being in the grave and already decaying. Resurrection of jesus after after his body being completely disformed by the death he went through.
I You wrote that in 2 Samuel 28 the witch of Endor raised the spirit of Samuel.
But she didn’t bring Samuel’s body back to life so that he would be back to present on earth in his bodily form. She was not able to save Saul’s life after he heard he would die. Only God’s servants Elijay and Elisha could perform that miracle and only on whom God allowed. They couldn’t even make themselves back to life.
You bring against jesus that “He constantly berated the Pharisees for not accepting him based on his previous miracles ” The miracles he did were the miracles proving he is the Messiah. spoken in isaiah . Messianic miracles were; the oppening the eyes of the blind, further ; ” the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, And the tongue of the dumb sing.” Nobody was able to open the eyes of the blind from birth so far. jesus was casting out evil spirits that made then death, speechless, crazy, etc freeing man to serve God and he was accused for that as doing it in authority of devil’s ( evil) power. You do not cast evil spirits if you belong to the same one as one same kingdom doesn’t fight against each other own. Jesus made it clear Matthew 12;24-26. Your spirit has to be stronger then the evil to do that and that is from God’s. Matthew 12;29
Healing and casting out a dumb demon- is the miracle only the messiah could perform. The Pharisees recognized this as a messianic miracle, this is why they asked could this be the son of David.
Even evil spirits knew who Jesus was ; God’s son ; Mark 1;23
Also God shows that even reliabe miracles like His before the whole nation , miracles that outcasted any other miracles made by magicians do not make people trust Him, and make ther go their own way, so no fifference with jesus’.
Num. 14:11 Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? Vs.22 “because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice.”
Jesus didn’t do miracles for show but to point to his Messianic authority and make people look for spiritual needs; to look for the food that endures to eternal life ( which is faith in God) instead of coming to him because of being given food
John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”
The most important you have a wrong perception about what it meant ‘giving a sign of Jonah” It was not about coming to a ceratain group of doubting Pharisees face to face. They were not given a chance??? As your rabbi said that miracle would STILL mean nothing even if if happened. I am sure Jesus knew that too.
It was an event that was to happen and happened and anybody who wanted to know had a chance to come to the grave and see. I do not believe Pharisees were ‘deprived ‘ of that information. They all knew where he was laid they all knew he said he would be alive after 3 days so they put the guards. Guards were the witness, terrified, shocked witnessing the angels rolling off the stone. They went back to the priests and said what happened . And what reason did the Pharisees have in bribing the guards and disform the truth we read in Matthew 28;13? Answer yourself. If I was to build my faith on that lie , I have a better option.
To your argument against jesus mediator between man and God . He is a mediator as a hight priest who comes before God with his blood shed for us. The same way like the High priest in OT who was the only one able to come into a very presence of God ( not without a shed blood ) to intercede for people’s sin. God didn’t need that blood for the sake of godly ritual, but a symbol of price paid for peoples sins, price that cost someone his life. ( By the way you never ansered my questions about reasons for blood in the temple..)
Jeremiah 30;21 said the Messiah ( Israel’s ruler) will be the one able to come that CLOSE to God unlike anybody else.
According to Isaiah the Messiah will be in change of everything, so if God gives him authority over Sabbath, I do not have a problem with that. Also Jesus is not changing the law of sabbath.
According to Deut 13 and 18 the false prophet is put to death which is not meant to be fallow by resurrection which is back to life.. Death of false prophet was death.
If you’re going to use a reference from Isaiah why not take the entire section into account. If you are using ch.35 then J’sus certainly did Not fulfill what Isaiah wrote. This is the deceptive nature of Xtianity by taking a partial text and applying that, instead of using the whole. Do you Really believe that the Pharisees would have attributed Isaiah to what’s written here. And Remember, Mark was written nearly a generation After this supposedly occurred.
It is interesting that the resurrection story has differing accounts depending on which book is read. Of course, this goes with many accounts in the four gospels.
It is well known that the sacrifices for sin were not for any intentional sin. If one Intentionally sinned there was no venue of sacrifice. Now, if the sacrifice of this J’sus is supposed to correlate to the temple then How can “his” blood do any good for people with intentional sins. Xtianity wants to say that “his” atonement is a pattern from Korbanot but there isn’t that avenue for those. Another aspect of Korbanot is sin offerings for individuals were female animals. Apparently, according to Xtianity, we should have a female messiah.
Eric, there are a lot of problems I would like to address and will hopefully get back to you on this soon.
Dina, taking a break for the weekend so no rush
Eric, I didn’t reply to this comment yet, but I just replied to many others that address the same subject, and Jim posted a couple of times on the lack of credibility of the stories you cited here from Christian scripture, so I’ll just respond to this:
“According to Isaiah the Messiah will be in change of everything, so if God gives him authority over Sabbath, I do not have a problem with that.”
Where does Isaiah say the Messiah will be in charge of everything? I’m not saying he doesn’t; I just don’t remember reading that, so I would appreciate the reference.
God doesn’t give humans the authority to do anything they want. He set up the rules in Deuteronomy. No human can contradict the Law of Moses. What does Lord of the Sabbath mean anyway? God gave the Sabbath to the entire people of Israel as an eternal sign; someone can’t come along and claim it all for himself (Exodus 31:17).
Eric Again – you impose your own “logic” on the word of God. The Scripture says that God is performing the miracle to test us – and the standard that we are to use to distinguish the true prophet from the fraud is NOT the nature of the miracle – but if the prophet is or is not encouraging worship of the God we know – that is THE message of this passage in Deuteronomy
ypfriend, and such a prophet according to Deut deserves death not resurrection unlike Jesus. So whose testimony is more credible ? God’s or yours? If God has a reason to bring him back to life then jesus is not contradicting Torah. As a false prophet he should have remained in the grave. Second, jesus was not performing miracle of resurrection on himself and by himself while being dead. It is God, not any other false prophet doing that.
Eric You keep on missing the point – the verse says that it is God who is doing the testing – not the false prophet
“Eric You keep on missing the point – the verse says that it is God who is doing the testing – not the false prophet”
When God is talking about testing in Deut 13;6 He is using a false prophet who says; lets follow other gods that you don’t know..(….) And that prophet shall be put to death.”
First of all Jesus’ call is a call to repentance and not the call for serving other gods.
Second; God clearly says that testing is not a ‘self happening event’ without a false dreamer or prophet, and if their false call or statements or knowledge was used by God to test others, God would still prove their falsehood by their judgement they deserve ; He said ‘ they shall be put to death.” Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION! Resurrection is the sign that we would recognize between the righteous one and the false one.
God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line. No falsehood was ever to be followed by resurrection. God was never raising any ‘bad people’ back to life to ‘do the testing’. Not a single event in OT.
I’d say Jim HAS confirmed J’sus is guilty of bring gods you have not known to the forefront. He STOLE the whole purpose of Pesach and made it about him.
Who can say the resurrection is a valid sign. Even the books do not agree on the details which brings suspicion to the event. Add to that only a “select” few were even privy to this information. That is why the Sinai event is held as the standard for all others that come to pass. Every cult or religion has the same uncorroborated events that only They know about. By this standard the Hari Krishna would be a more authentic belief. Their claim is greater.
Sharbano, Every gospel has different focus. One focuses on one type of details , the other on the other and they all complete each other. One emphasizes one event over the other.
One tells you how the stone was rolled away, the other shows you resurrected Jesus’ encounter with the disciples, the other speaks about first visitors to the tomb, and then the other emphasizes encounter with the angels passing on the message to the worrying people.
“Every gospel has different focus. One focuses on one type of details etc.”
Eric, the gospels don’t complement each other, they contradict each other on fundamental points such as what day it happened, what time of day it happened, how may days and nights he was in the tomb, who saw him first, and so on and so forth. It’s impossible for all versions of the story to have occurred exactly as described.
you were unable to understand when I explained what was obvious. You saw contradiction no matter what. so I do not go back to that, it is useless!
Eric You are twisting God’s word – the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. The standard that the people are to use is to see if the prophet is encouraging a worship that they did not know. If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere.
“First of all Jesus’ call is a call to repentance and not the call for serving other gods.”
Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him. And if you don’t believe in him you eternally damned. No other Hebrew prophet EVER said such things. This is a brand new idea in worshiping God–that the only way to Him is through a human being. Deuteronomy 4 teaches us that we are to worship God ONLY according the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. And we are to transmit this knowledge to our children.
If all Jesus did was call others to repentance we would have no problem with him.
“Second; God clearly says that testing is not a ‘self happening event’ without a false dreamer or prophet etc.”
Where does God clearly say that? As far as I can see, God does not specify any particular kind of event or exclude any particular kind of event.
“Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION!”
Death was not the confirmation that the prophet was false. The confirmation was the false teaching. God required us to put the false prophet to death, but that could only apply during a time when we had the power to do so. Under Roman rule, the Jews did not have the power to apply the death penalty.
“God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.”
Where does the Hebrew Bible say that? Where is there a disclaimer that says, “But if the prophet is raised back to life, then do anything he says! Even if he says to worship idols!”?
You made up the baseline, Eric, not God.
Dina, “Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him.”
Jesus is called ‘word of God’ that is why he is the way the truth and the light the same way like God’s word is your guidance. He fulfills God’;s word, He lives by it.
He also comes in the presence of God as High priest on our behalf . Hebrew 9.
” And if you don’t believe in him you eternally damned.” Another words if you do not believe what God says you are not God’s.
I said “Death was the final confirmation of their sin/ falsehood. NOT RESURRECTION!”
you said ; “Death was not the confirmation that the prophet was false. The confirmation was the false teaching. ”
But the prophet with false teaching is not promised to rise back to life! You are going around with that. If jesus is rewarded with eternal life with God then he is not the false prophet.
“God required us to put the false prophet to death, but that could only apply during a time when we had the power to do so. Under Roman rule, the Jews did not have the power to apply the death penalty.” What are you talking about??? According to your rabbi Jesus is sentenced to death thanks to ‘ highly qualified pharisiess.’ although executors were Romans. What does it change?
“God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.” I made the line??
The baseline is set in Daniel 12;2 righteous are not risen back to life with God , but raise to condemnation.
That’s a really big issue. Xtians come to tell US that even though we believe fully in G-d, follow the Mitzvot, as He required, are faithful to Him, YET, if we don’t believe in this “man-god” we are eternally damned? How is this NOT against Torah, whether J’sus fulfilled Torah, notwithstanding.
That is another occasion that calls into question the veracity of the Xtian text. “Highly qualified pharisees” were Not in position to sentence anyone. The problem with SO many Xtians is they have NO other knowledge than what is in their texts. Because of THIS they are unable to discern what is truth and what is false. I found this to be evident when they are wholly unaware that the Xtian text says Gentiles are to keep the Noachide commandments. So many had no idea what that even meant. You’re making that up, is the typical reply by Xtians on so many similar points.
Hi Eric,
I’m going to respond to a bunch of your comments in one comment. Having them all in one place is easier, I think.
I wrote that there is no excuse for Jesus not keeping his word to the Pharisees about the sign of his resurrection. You wrote that the resurrection was not for show, but all who wanted could come and see. This is not what your gospels record. They record that word of the resurrection spread 50 days after the supposed event, so what is the point of a sign that you can’t see, that you have to rely on hearsay? That’s not a sign!
Furthermore, you wrote in a later comment that the resurrection confirms that the prophet is true. The resurrection is the sign that proves Jesus is who he said he is. You said that all other miracles don’t necessarily prove a prophet is true, but resurrection is the exception for sure. Yet in the gospels, the Pharisees were expected to believe in Jesus before he was resurrected, when he was supposedly performing other miracles. You are trying to have it both ways.
And you still have not proved that Jesus was justified in not fulfilling his sign to the Pharisees. He even says they don’t deserve it, and they’re evil, and so on, but he says he will give them a sign anyway. Therefore, all your excuses for him fall flat.
“Dina, popularity and appreciation for Jesus is not to be read from history. It is described in the gospels and other epistles.”
It’s not to be read from history? Says who? The problem for Christians is that Jesus lived during a time when educated men were recording history. Two Jews–neither of them Pharisees–and some Roman historians of the time period (such Tacitus) wrote volumes of contemporary history. If Jesus were as popular and famous as the gospels described, it’s inconceivable that no one would have mentioned him. As it is, what references there are have been proven to be later Christian interpolations.
The problem for Christians, then, is that the historical record not only does not support, but also in some cases directly contradicts, the events of the gospels. We know from the historical record, for example, that the real Pontius Pilate bore no resemblance to the character in the gospels. Furthermore, we know from the historical record that the ugly caricature of Pharisees painted in the gospels had nothing to do with the real, live ones who lived at that time.
David (the one on this blog who calls us Jew men) mocked the idea that the Pharisees were tolerant and sneered that instead of Independence Day we should have Pharisee Day. But he was closer to the truth than he realized, as the Pharisees did apply principles of democracy (read about that here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees).
You can read more about the real, historical Pharisees here: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Pharisees
“Dina, I don’t know what you mean by here; to describe differences between Jesus’s condemnation of the Pharisees and the rebukes of the Hebrew prophets???”
I wrote that because you didn’t respond to my comment that describes the differences between Jesus’s condemnation of the Pharisees and the rebukes of the prophets. Originally, you defended Jesus’s vitriol, saying it was no different from the criticisms of the Hebrew prophets. I showed you the differences here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/daniel-7-and-acceptance-of-scripture-an-open-letter-to-bru/#comment-20380
“it is shaky to you, not to us.”
Eric, both Jim and I brought you reasons backed by logic and history of why these stories are so shaky. To say that “it is shaky to you, not to us” is not a refutation. It is an admission that you take these stories on faith because they cannot be supported on other grounds.
“you were unable to understand when I explained what was obvious. You saw contradiction no matter what. so I do not go back to that, it is useless!”
And I say, Eric, that you refuse to see the contradictions.
The way we are taught to read the Bible is the very opposite. As far back as the 3rd grade, I remember being encouraged to look for the contradictions, to find questions. We’re not afraid to face them. Truth has nothing to fear.
“Dina, “Eric, Jesus’s call is a call to believe in him because he is the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the Father but through him.”
Jesus is called ‘word of God’ that is why he is the way the truth and the light the same way like God’s word is your guidance. He fulfills God’;s word, He lives by it.”
Eric, you keep changing the argument. If Jesus was a call to repentance, we would have no problem with it. If he were a call to believe in the word of God, we already believe in the word of God–the Torah–so we would also have no problem with that. A person cannot be the word. A lot of people “fulfill God’s word” and “live by it”–that doesn’t make them the way to God. A person can be a prophet, a messenger, of God–nothing more, nothing less.
For a person to say that he is the word of God and therefore he is the way to God is a brand new way of worshiping God, not taught at Sinai as per Deuteronomy 4, and thus must be rejected. Can you reconcile Deuteronomy 4 with this new way of worshiping God, unknown to our fathers?
“But the prophet with false teaching is not promised to rise back to life! You are going around with that. If jesus is rewarded with eternal life with God then he is not the false prophet.”
There isn’t any way for me to know that Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, was rewarded with eternal life. You have to take that on faith. For all anyone knows, he is roasting in hell.
“According to your rabbi Jesus is sentenced to death thanks to ‘ highly qualified pharisiess.’ although executors were Romans. What does it change?”
This is another example where the historical record contradicts the gospel story. According to Jewish law, Jesus did nothing to deserve the death penalty. Death penalty cases were tried according to a set of rules that were not followed in the gospels (for example, the trial could take place only during the day, confession of crime was not acceptable evidence, and so on). Christians want to have it both ways: legalistic Pharisees and lawless Pharisees. (This pattern was repeated throughout history: Jews were hated for being religious and for being secular, for being capitalist and for being communist, for being rich and for being poor, for being powerful and for being helpless.)
This story simply could not have happened the way the gospels portray it.
““God set a base -line. There is no false prophet, no testing beyond that line.” I made the line??
The baseline is set in Daniel 12;2 righteous are not risen back to life with God , but raise to condemnation.”
Deuteronomy 13 nowhere gives an exception for any type of miracle. You turned to an entirely different text that is talking about an entirely different subject to support your own criteria. If a prophet teaches any kind of worship that is different from what we were taught at Sinai, he is a false prophet and there is nothing more to discuss, no exceptions for any kind of miracle. That is the lesson of Deuteronomy 4 and 13.
“All details predicted. No surprise, only to those who don’t want to know God.”
Why do you assume that we don’t want to know God? How can you know what is in our hearts? Do you think that only true Christians can have a real, deep, personal relationship with God? You need to get out and meet some religious Jews.
{And I say, Eric, that you refuse to see the contradictions.}
I’m unsure if it is in the Xtian text, but I have heard that a person should not listen to those who sew doubt about their beliefs. Of course this is most certainly and emphatically a very convenient method to keep their faith. Many times in a debate I have noticed they will listen partially, avoiding direct challenges, and thus they can fulfill this “Xtian mitzvah”, thereby eliminating any chance of loss of faith. What we have seen here, and what I’ve seen elsewhere bears this out.
Eric your posts are inspiring. May the Holy One bless you!!
Yisroel the Resurrection is a game changer. Eric points are valid. The consequence of a false prophet is death no Resurrection. The Resurrection is the validation of Yahushuo as the Eternal Messiah the Dabar in the Flesh.
Paul conversion is a consequence of that Resurrection.
The Passover from Death to Life, from Bondage to Freedom is the Resurrection. Christianity is the celebration of the Resurrection.
Judaism is still in the waiting having missed the New Creation
But the sign of Yonas will be available soon when you will witness this:
Revelation 11 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Two Witnesses
11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,[a] saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God[b] of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
The Witnesses Killed
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
The Witnesses Resurrected
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11)
Eric, to go along with what Jim said, it is not meant by anyone to be unkind to say that a miracle doesn’t automatically testify to the truth of a position. Everyone claims miracles. Christians say Jesus rose from death, Muslims say that Muhammad wrote the Qur’an even though he was illiterate. Even the New Testament tells you not to trust in miracles because they can’t always be trusted.
We know that a few of the miracles that Moses himself performed were replicated by Pharaoh’s magicians, that wouldn’t grant legitimacy to them. That means simply that a miracle doesn’t serve as a validation. If you notice, when the Hebrews doubt Moses’ leadership relatively regularly, he presses on, continues to lead them in spite of their objections, continues to care despite their obstinacy.
Moses himself suspects and anticipates doubt, (as he himself testifies, in Exodus 4:1) “What if they do not believe in me?” Very few people realize that Moses himself wasn’t unsympathetic to the doubters.
Jesus by contrast gets very very upset when people doubt his claims. He gets very inflammatory. When he first tells the disciples he needs to die, Peter, his number one student says “heaven forbid master that you should die.” What a godly thing for Peter to say to his rabbi. How does Jesus respond to an act of compassion? Mathew 16:23 “Get behind me Satan!” Even if it were G-D’s plan for Jesus to die, at the time, his students didn’t even know, nor could they be expected to know. Nobody should accept a claim until the pudding is brought to substantiate the claim.
ypfriend, I meant in my last line; And if He ever gave it to somebody it was nobody else EXCEPT for – His close servants!
Following.
I have asked many questions still no answers, specially this one who seems very disturbing for Yisroel and cie:
Who did Moseh saw face to face? Who is this form of YHWH?
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12; NKJV)
Actually, I answered you on this one, but you did not respond; perhaps you did not see it. Concerned Reader answered you several times on this topic. Did you miss all of his answers?
On the other hand, you have ignored our questions. One of the most recent ones: how do you translate Isaiah 38:13? And also, find a source in Tanach or the Talmud that says that Gentiles are dogs.
If I were you, I would say that you are not answering because these questions are so disturbing to you.
I’m really, really interested in hearing the secret, deep meanings your ruach will give you on this particular verse (Isaiah 38:13).
Can I guess? Will it be something like this?
“I made [myself] until morning to dig, so it would break my bones; from day and night You shall finish me.”
All the other translations are wrong, but this will be the secret and deep meaning from your ruach, no doubt.
Lion I answered you on this question multiple times. The form of G-d can be a prophetic vision as in Ezekiel, Daniel, and in Isaiah. It doesn’t imply at all that G-d is physical, or that he takes on the forms of anything in heaven, on earth, or the forms of the whole host of heaven which Israel IS FORBIDDEN TO PRAY TO (Deuteronomy 4:19.)
Learn to read our responses to you MORE CAREFULLY, and then maybe we can have an honest dialogue. You keep asserting that no answers are given to this question. I have responded to this same question of yours 3 times now. Read the vision of G-d’s throne found in Ezekiel and in Isaiah, and notice carefully how the visions are different from each other in the details. ITS BECAUSE THEY ARE VISIONS IN THE PROPHET’s MIND’S EYE, NOT LITERAL BODIES OR PHYSICAL ENTITIES OR DESCRIPTION’s of G-d’s essence.
G-d is completely beyond the caragories of the material world. I’m surprised that you (as a supposedly orthodox Christian) do not know that G-d is without body or form? http://www.catholic.com/tracts/god-has-no-body
Tatian the Syrian (author of the Diatessaron, the first known gospel harmony.)
“Our God has NO INTRODUCTION IN TIME. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, NOT ATTENDING UPON MATRER, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is INVISIBLE, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).
Con like always you bring substance to the debate. But that confirms that Moseh did not see the FATHER Eternal but the Messiah Eternal Elohei Israel who is the form of YHWH:
Here is the Hebrew: פֶּה אֶל־פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר־בּוֹ וּמַרַאֶה וַלֹא בְחִידֹת וּתְמֻנַת יַהוָה יַבִּיט
”Mouth to mouth I will speak in(with) him and appearance(sight) not in mystery
In a form of YHWH he will look …”
And the link proves that the ancients (the wise) of the holy Orthodox Knesse never taught idolatry:
Tatian the Syrian
“Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).
Athenagoras
“I have sufficiently demonstrated that we are not atheists, since we acknowledge one God, unbegotten, eternal, invisible, incapable of being acted upon, incomprehensible, unbounded, who is known only by understanding and reason, who is encompassed by light and beauty and spirit and indescribable power, by whom all things, through his Word, have been produced and set in order and are kept in existence” (Plea for the Christians 10 [A.D. 177]).
Irenaeus
“Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God” (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).
Clement of Alexandria
“The first substance is everything which subsists by itself, as a stone is called a substance. The second is a substance capable of increase, as a plant grows and decays. The third is animated and sentient substance, as animal, horse. The fourth is animate, sentient, rational substance, as man. Wherefore each one of us is made as consisting of all, having an immaterial soul and a mind, which is the image of God” (Fragment from On Providence [A.D. 200]).
“Being is in God. God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists. Being is that which wholly subsists. Nature is the truth of things, or the inner reality of them. According to others, it is the production of what has come to existence; and according to others, again, it is the providence of God, causing the being, and the manner of being, in the things which are produced” (ibid.).
“What is God? ‘God,’ as the Lord says, ‘is a spirit.’ Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself” (ibid.).
“No one can rightly express him wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form” (Miscellanies 5:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
“Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind” (Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [A.D. 225]).
“John says in the gospel, ‘No one has at any time seen God,’ clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no nature to which God is visible, not as if he were indeed visible by nature, and merely escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature, but because he is by nature impossible to be seen” (ibid. 1:1:8).
Athanasius
“God, however, being without parts, is Father of the Son without division and without being acted upon. For neither is there an effluence from that which is incorporeal, nor is there anything flowering into him from without, as in the case of men. Being simple in nature, he is Father of one only Son” (Letter on the Council of Nicaea 11 [A.D. 350]).
Didymus the Blind
“God is simple and of an incomposite and spiritual nature, having neither ears nor organs of speech. A solitary essence and illimitable, he is composed of no numbers and parts” (The Holy Spirit 35 [A.D. 362]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“First it must be remembered that God is incorporeal. He does not consist of certain parts and distinct members, making up one body. For we read in the gospel that God is a spirit: invisible, therefore, and an eternal nature, immeasurable and self-sufficient. It is also written that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. For of these the members of a body consist, and of these the substance of God has no need. God, however, who is everywhere and in all things, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-doing, and all-assisting” (Commentary on the Psalms 129[130]:3 [A.D. 365]).
Basil the Great
“The operations of God are various, but his essence is simple” (Letters 234:1 [A.D. 367]).
Ambrose of Milan
“God is of a simple nature, not conjoined nor composite. Nothing can be added to him. He has in his nature only what is divine, filling up everything, never himself confused with anything, penetrating everything, never himself being penetrated, everywhere complete, and present at the same time in heaven, on earth, and in the farthest reaches of the sea, incomprehensible to the sight” (The Faith 1:16:106 [A.D. 379]).
Evagrius of Pontus
“To those who accuse us of a doctrine of three gods, let it be stated that we confess one God, not in number but in nature. For all that is said to be one numerically is not one absolutely, nor is it simple in nature. It is universally confessed, however, that God is simple and not composite” (Dogmatic Letter on the Trinity 8:2 [A.D. 381]).
Gregory of Nyssa
“But there is neither nor ever shall be such a dogma in the Church of God that would prove the simple and incomposite [God] to be not only manifold and variegated, but even constructed from opposites. The simplicity of the dogmas of the truth proposes God as he is” (Against Eunomius1:1:222 [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
“[Paul] knows [God] in part. But he says, ‘in part,’ not because he knows God’s essence while something else of his essence he does not know; for God is simple. Rather, he says ‘in part’ because he knows that God exists, but what God is in his essence he does not know” (Against the Anomoians 1:5 [A.D. 386]).
“Why does John say, ‘No one has ever seen God’ [John 1:18]? So that you might learn that he is speaking about the perfect comprehension of God and about the precise knowledge of him. For that all those incidents [where people saw a vision of God] were condescensions and that none of those persons saw the pure essence of God is clear enough from the differences of what each did see. For God is simple and non-composite and without shape; but they all saw different shapes” (ibid., 4:3).
Augustine
“In created and changeable things what is not said according to substance can only be said according to accident. . . . In God, however, certainly there is nothing that is said according to accident, because in him there is nothing that is changeable, but neither is everything that is said of him according to substance” (The Trinity 5:5:6 [A.D. 408]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“We are not by nature simple; but the divine nature, perfectly simple and incomposite, has in itself the abundance of all perfection and is in need of nothing” (Dialogues on the Trinity 1 [A.D. 420]).
“The nature of the Godhead, which is simple and not composite, is never to be divided into two” (Treasury of the Holy Trinity 11 [A.D. 424]).
“When the divine Scripture presents sayings about God and remarks on corporeal parts, do not let the mind of those hearing it harbor thoughts of tangible things, but from those tangible things as if from things said figuratively let it ascend to the beauty of things intellectual, and rather than figures and quantity and circumscriptions and shapes and everything else that pertains to bodies, let it think on God, although he is above all understanding. We were speaking of him in a human way, for there is no other way in which we could think about the things that are above us” (Commentary on the Psalms 11[12]:3 [A.D. 429]).
I find serious issues with any method of referring to G-d in separate “parts”, whether it is called Dabar or anything else. If one of His attributes is considered to have it Own existence how is that Not another god. So, in Xtian terms there are three, as one, segregated but the same. My physical body here is a unique entity and my words and thoughts are me. They are not separate entities. If Dabar is unique unto itself, then His “thoughts” also should be a unique entity. When He unleashes His wrath, that too, would be another entity. If He loves His firstborn son, then this too should be its own entity. We cannot stop at His Dabar and then say this is all the sum total of His entities. We can see how man envisions G-d with the mural that is in the Sistine chapel. From my perspective I had seen that image and never imagined that G-d was one of the two. When I first found that out I was literally Shocked, to the core. I could never imagine people would have that representation. I foolishly thought it might have been perhaps Abraham and Isaac, as if some reference to the Akeidah. It’s much more comfortable to imagine G-d as an “entity”, if even that is the proper term, of nothing but pure thought, pure will and nothing physical. If He has created a Universe with virtually an infinite amount of Galaxies and we are a mere speck in One of those galaxies how can it be that he is reduced to the stature of a man on a single planet, among a single solar system, among a single galaxy, among an infinite count of galaxies. We don’t even know what is Past those galaxies we see from this single planet. How arrogant of mankind to think he can see this G-d in its full glory. It’s much more acceptable to consider Him as so far elevated above that His “energy” would destroy the world if He made literal contact, since He holds the entire Universe together with His will. It is understandable that His immense Power is So Great, beyond any human comprehension, that it has to be transmitted down to us via an increasing number of filters. Imagine, for instance, that we cannot look directly at the sun, which is so miniscule compared to His Power and we should be able to look at His full Glory, which is infinite compared to the sun. It is beyond rational thought.
Hi Lion,
You wrote:
“… Moseh did not see the FATHER Eternal but the Messiah Eternal Elohei Israel who is the form of YHWH:”
My commentary:
Your many citations don’t actually support your claim that Moses “saw” the Messiah, nor that the Messiah is the “form” of the YHWH, nor that Moses did not behold the form (temunah) of the YHWH.
Let’s go back to Exodus to the passage in question. The context is that after the incident of the golden calf, Moses makes a request of God that he wants to see His “glory.” God consents to show his glory also referred to as his “goodness” but explains that no one may see His face and live, Moses will only see his back. Obviously the language of body parts is figurative. The deeper meaning is that while Moses will behold (with the eyes, or spiritual eyes, meaning the heart, is not critical to know for our purposes here) of the glory of God like no other man had since; yet he will not partake of the most intimate nature of God as represented and symbolized by God’s face.
Exodus 33:18 – 20, 23b
18 Moses said, “Show me your glory, I pray.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you the name, ‘The YHWH’; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.” “…you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.”
And, we see the concept repeated in Numbers that the relationship between Moses and God is more intimate than even that which God has among other prophets. The “form” (Hebrew Temunah) as used in numbers 12:8 occurse 10 in Hebrew Scriptures. We should not make the false assumption here that it is necessarily a “physical” form. The Hebrew Temunah is defined as follows:
“something portioned (that is, fashioned) out, as a shape, that is, (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):—image, likeness, similitude.”
Numbers 12:8
With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form (temunah) of the YHWH. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?”
The same Hebrew word “temunah” is used by the Psalmist describing how he will behold the face of the “YHWH” when he is resurrected. We know he is referring to the YHWH and NOT the Messiah, from verse one.
Psalm
17:1
“Hear my just cause, O YHWH; attend to my cry…”
17:15
“As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness (temunah) when I awake.”
And, obviously the same Hebrew word (temunah) is used in the passage of Deuteronomy 4, including Deuteronomy 4:15 among others. Less there be any doubt, it was indeed the YHWH and NOT the Messiah, as noted in Deuteronomy 4:12 who spoke to them out of the fire.
Deuteronomy 4:12
“Then the YHWH spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form (temunah)—only a voice.”
Deuteronomy 4:15
“So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form (temunah) on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire”
David that is your interpretation which I respect but if you think that the Infinite Pure Holy Essence of Eloah can be seen in a form you are mistaken. That is impossible!! Only through the Eternal Son Beloved can we see. For his face is the Sun of Righteousness the Resurrection and the Life through Him we see the Transcendent Light. To those who have been elected before the foundation of Time!!
Apparently no “metaphor” in your ruach?
You all failed to respond because the form of YHWH who Moseh saw was the Messiah Himself for Yahushuo is the Image of the Invisible Elohim. It is also the ”in OUR image of Genesis”
”Then Elohim said, “Let Us make Adam in Our image, according to Our likeness” (Genesis 1:26)
”So Elohim created man in His own image; in the image of Elohim He created him; male and female He created them.” (Genesis 1:27)
These verses from the upstart of the Torah proves that Elohim a plural is One where the IN HIS OWN IMAGE is Elohim the Messiah where Adam comes from. It establishes that the IN OUR IMAGE is the prototype of the sons of Elohim
”15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”
(Colossians 1)
You are engaging in simple Eisogesis here Lion! No wonder you come to the conclusions you do about the Bible. You are only interested in putting Jesus into Tanakh verses where you already believe that he fits. You have no contextual reason to believe these verses are about Jesus, you just believe they are about him. Thank you for finally showing us your “method” of reading scripture for what it really is.
If the only rebuttal to our scriptural citations that you can give is to say “you disagree with me, so you are just wrong,” then you have lost all ground on which to stand objectively in this dialogue. You can’t just say that a verse refers to Jesus because the NT says it does, that’s no different than a Muslim saying that the NT proves the Qu’ran because the Qu’ran says it does!
If you are not interested in the answers you have recieved, fine! But don’t come here slandering people and their character expecting to score points for your position, when it rests solely on your personal beliefs.
Con your mind is confused and overwhelmed by the truth. You confound personal beliefs with the Revelation to men of Eloah. You judge with pride when you are not establish to judge. You think by your personal beliefs you can model the Revelation to your carnal mind. If it overwhelms you be humble like all Israel who cry to Mosheh to be their intermediary between the Elohim and them.
Is it so difficult for you to understand Torah?
What is obvious for a pure mind must be foggy and difficult for a carnal mind. You can stay with your present mind but a judgement day do not say that you were unaware that you bashed and denigrated the little children of Eloah, for you were instructed by me to reform your mind but you choose the way of the stones instead of the way of the Messiah.
Bless be the humbles for the will inherit the Land!!
Lion,
Onces again: insistence that your view is correct is not an argument. Just labeling your opponents carnally minded and yourself spiritually minded does not make it so.
It will not take an astute reader to note that you have once again changed the subject. You have set a standard for identifying a prophet which is contrary to that given by HaShem. Now that it has been shown that your position is contrary to Torah, you deflect. You return to looking for theophanies. That is not the topic.
While you are so quick to point out what you feel no one has answered, let us remember that you asserted that the resurrection is terribly important. You have argued that it means he had the support of God. This is not the standard of the Torah, as you can see from what R’ Blumenthal has presented.
I also remind you that you have not answered me regarding the resurrection, the point that you found so important but on which you now turn evasive. R’ Blumenthal kindly put my comments to you in one place, here:https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/reflections-on-an-alleged-resurrection-three-letters-from-jim/ . Or shall we take from your silence there and your deflection here that you have no answer, that the resurrection is of no significance whatsoever?
Jim
P.S. You still owe us a retraction regarding your claim that the Tanach calls non-Jews “dogs”.
Many people when learning a new word have the tendency to use it whenever they can. This is what it looks like with your overuse of “carnal mind”. You throw it around like a person who boasts of their own superiority. I’ve seen many a person boast of themselves but never have I seen one who could compare to you. It is beyond all belief. In this boastful approach are you emulating your J’sus. Is THIS how mankind should act to one another. In all my many years never have I heard such pomposity as this,
“for you were instructed by me to reform your mind but you ”
I mean, Really, who do YOU think you are. You are not G-d. You are not even J’sus. You are nobody who comes here with delusions of grandeur with Only the desire to castigate people you feel are beneath you. What a sad state. And to quote YOUR J’sus, what did he say, “let him without sin cast the first stone”. I take it you are suggesting you are without sin. Then, to top it all off you have the unmitigated gall to suggest You are “humble” with the words:
“Bless be the humbles for the will inherit the Land!!”
Well, I suggest to you that given your statement you will never inherit the Land.
Where in G-d’s name have I “bashed the little children?” I have not bashed you, unless bringing scripture counts as a bashing?
Breathtaking argument! One is swept away by the pure logic, backed by crystal clear Scriptural citations. Who can fail to be persuaded? Who can stand in the face of such powerful reasoning?
Eliyahu How do you expect us to take you seriously – when you don’t take yourself seriously. In one sentence you tell us that you know Hebrew because you have Israeli relatives and in the next you tell us that modern Hebrew is not Biblical Hebrew. In one sentence you berate us for translating a word differently than some Christian scholars and then you go and translate a word differently than every scholar under the sun. Don’t expect anyone to take you more seriously than you take yourself. By the way – I understand that it is painful to be living a life of contradictions – the door to teshuva is always open.
Yisroel you understand with your limited human mind. What can I expect of you? Mosheh was your leader, he was an elohim in human flesh. An elohim to Pharaoh but also to all Israel. You revere him and you do well.
Carnal minds understand carnally
Wicked minds understand wickedly
Pure minds understand purely
Simple minds understand simply
Human minds understand humanly
Angelic minds understand angelically
Holy minds understand the holy
Messianic minds understand the Messiah
Prophetic minds understand the Prophets
Elohim minds understand divinely
Choose your minds from the lower planes for to you the mysteries has not be unveiled. You can not expect a mouse to understand like a dolphin nor a monkey like a man. Nor a man like angel, nor a slave like a prince…
I wonder EL, do you even know what elohim even means. Apparently Not since you phrase it as “elohim in human flesh”. Since G-d is called Elokim you assume the “word” means G-d. Far from it. Everything written regarding G-d speaks to His Attributes and NOT to His essence. To think that “words” can define such an essence is, in itself, a type of idolatry. How can mere words describe something that is infinite. Can you write the Number “infinity”. Can you describe infinity. This is how you and Xtianity try to turn G-d into something definable, with substance, with a finite existence, when it cannot be definable, is without substance and is infinite in all, in thought AND existence.
“Yisroel you understand with your limited human mind. What can I expect of you?”
And you, Lion, with what kind of mind do you understand? Your arrogance does beat all.
You keep repeating yourself even After you’ve been answered. I gave the response from the Rambam on this matter regarding Tselem. One thing you fail to do in All cases is to look for the same word and it usage elsewhere. If you have questions THIS is the most appropriate method to use, and NOT just come up with an idea. And also, how is any of this based upon any ruach. You have simply parroted what every other Xtian has said for centuries. What you say is nothing new. All you have done is “dress it up” to make it sound “new and improved”.
Lion, you freely accuse all of us of lying, but you are guilty of a blatant lie. We have in fact answered you on this–some of several times.
I will repeat some of what I wrote because it is tiresome to keep repeating myself, especially to someone who has stuffed his fingers in his ears while chanting, “Nah, nah, nah.”
Deuteronomy 4 repeatedly warns us that we are not to associate God with any form whatsoever. Throughout the Torah we are CLEARLY warned to worship God alone. God is CLEARLY described as being One and being alone; He is never CLEARLY described as a plural entity in communion with other persons in the godhead. (All your “proofs” are based on hints.)
Therefore, even if your interpretations of theophanies in Scripture are accurate, meaning, even if God really did appear in human form in Scripture a thousand times, it is irrelevant to how we worship Him, because God Himself instructed us how to worship Him, and He forbade us from associating Him with any form or with any other entities (see Deuteronomy 4 again).
In short, Deuteronomy 4 makes all your arguments about “Let us make man in our image” and Moshe seeing the form of Hashem completely irrelevant. Worthless. Moot. Pointless.
We worship God alone. Period, end of story.
Lion, I have shown using revelation chapter 13 how literally anyone can claim to be G-d, can be “resurrected” and can do miracles, and how NONE OF THESE THINGS ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN BOOK PROVES THAT A PERSON IS TELLING TRUTH FROM G-D,OR IS FIT TO BE SERVED.
Yisroel you understand with your limited human mind. What can I expect of you?
Lion, Are we to infer from this that your mind is not a limited human mind?
BTW I’m not judging you lion, I have a different interpretation of scripture than you do.
Yisroel you said: ”Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple”
1) Do you know what Orthodox Christian means?
2) Do you think that your worship of heylel is intentional or even known to you?
3) Do you know what was the Messiah mission on this earth?
4) Do you who was the form of YHWH that Mosheh saw in Numbers?
Yisroel you have been deluded for more than 2000 years and still hanging on to your carnal view of Scriptures. Only a purified mind can see truly!!
4) Do you mean, in the form of a cloud. the same which guided the Israelites.
No in the form of YHWH like in Numbers 12:
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of YHWH
The form of YHWH is the Eternal Messiah the Dabar Elohim!!
WHERE does it say “face to face”?
It is more intimate but you are right it is in Numbers 12 v.8:
” mouth to mouth…”
here is the Hebrew: פֶּה אֶל־פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר־בּוֹ וּמַרַאֶה וַלֹא בְחִידֹת וּתְמֻנַת יַהוָה יַבִּיט
”Mouth to mouth I will speak in(with) him and appearance(sight) not in mystery
In a form of YHWH he will look …”
The NKJV was ok in the translation my translation conveys some nuances and more accuracies.
Yisroel, Eric argumentation is very solid compared to yours which is highly sophistic in nature.
How did Moseh made known Elohei Israel to Israel?
How his credibility was established?
What you accused Christian, Moseh did it to establish his authority to the People.
Now the argument of Resurrection establishes that Yahushuo is the Messiah. Actually the power of his Resurrection even converted Saul the most zealous of Pharisee. It establishes a sufficient numbers of witnesses to conquer the world to the Messiah of Israel.
The Prophet to come after Moseh is not Yahushuo for Yahushuo is the form of YHWH the Eternal Messiah Master of Space and Time, the Dabar (SON DAVID) in the Flesh. The one Messenger sent to Israel that All Israel most obey for it is written in Exodus 3 and many other passages of Holy Scriptures:
2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Elohei Abraham, Elohei Isaac, Elohei Yaakov for our 3 forefathers saw the Eternal Messiah who is NOT a mere man but Elohei Israel in the Flesh…
Your rejected him for your carnal view did not want to submit to the Reality of Eloah. Your argumentation is based therefore on pride who begot your lies and deceits.
Convert to real Judaism not your small sect who deformed Scriptures like Jeremiah predicted it. Turn to Elohei of our forefathers let go your false god heylel, be strong have courage to let go your lie. If not you will not reign with the Messiah in the world to come.
Your sect has been preserved to become the footstool of the One Messiah of Israel!!
“our 3 forefathers saw the Eternal Messiah who is NOT a mere man but Elohei Israel in the Flesh…”
Now that’s quite interesting. I wonder why the patriarchs never bothered to mention that they saw the messiah. Such a profound thing to see and NOT mention it to anyone. Wow.
Sharbano,
I don’t share Lion’s conclusions but God never shared the fact that Moses beheld His “form” until his (Moses’) authority was challenged by Miriam and Aaron. Had his authority never been challenged it is likely that we may never have know of this interesting fact that Moses beheld the form of the YHWH.
The YHWH was careful not to reveal His form to the Israelites as attested in Deuteronomy 4 so that those who recently left paganism and who were in fact still, as late as 40 years into the promised Land, grappling with the fact that their hearts were turned towards the gods of Egypt and in fact were in possession of such gods (Joshua 24 pertains)
Never the less, Lion is mistaken in his conclusion that the 3 patriarchs witnessed the actual Messiah or the YHWH in form. That’s not to say that they didn’t “see his day” which is an entirely different meaning.
All that has to be said here, that is if you Believe G-d’s Own Words, that No One can look upon G-d and live. Mankind cannot behold such Energy. If we cannot look directly at the sun then how much more so G-d’s infinite energy.
Sharbano the word Messiah came later in Scriptures. The Eternal Messenger(Messiah) Malakh(Messenger) the Dabar in the Flesh was seen by Abraham being accompanied by two angels although not as clearly than Moseh for Moseh was special an unique in his relation with the Dabar… for he had the mission to build a Nation!!
As one person aptly said, you are speaking Xtianese. You want to define angel into your own Xtianese. Abraham was visited by Angels, plain and simple. End of story!
Sharbano did you read Genesis 18. Adonai speaks directly to Abraham and visited him with two angels. Here again it is the form of YHWH the Eternal Dabar in the Flesh Master of Time speaking:
Genesis 18 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Son of Promise
18 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,[a] as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”
(Note that Abraham does not say my lords but Adonai)
They said, “Do as you have said.”
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”
So he said, “Here, in the tent.”
10 And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.”
(Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing.[b] 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”
(Note that the Lord here is in Hebrew YHWH saying to Abraham, obviously the Eternal Dabar in the Flesh speaks for His Father YHWH)
Sure! Change the subject once again. You are most certainly an expert in this. Since you are Unable to rebut you have to resort to other methods.
Where does it “say” the Son of Promise
First of all it says “three men”. Are YOU suggesting G-d is made of three men.
Of course you omitted the answer that is clear in the next chapter.
“The two ANGELS came to Sodom”.
WOW! Your answer is found just a little later.
AND in typical fashion for you, and how the Xtian text perverts Torah, you fail to recognize salient information.
“The men turned from there and went to Sodom, while Abraham was still standing BEFORE HASHEM. And Abraham came forward and said…”
WOW! These men left yet Abraham is still Before Hashem.
This is the worst perversion of the words of Torah, where a person is led to believe G-d is in the form of THREE MEN.
Sharbano where did I say in the form of three men. I said one of the three is the form of YHWH the Messiah Eternal the Dabar in the Flesh. The other two are two angels. I said note the word Adonai when Abraham speaks and precisely continue his conversation with YHWH directly.
Are you saying the ETERNAL speaks human? That the ETERNAL is human. Only his DABAR who is his Eternal Image in the Flesh his Form his Face speaks to us. Is it so difficult to grasp without distorting the Holy Torah??
No matter HOW you want to word it, or the words used, the simple fact IS you believe in a god of flesh and blood. This is paganism at its finest.
As it says, they LEFT. Also the proof is in When Hashem speaks it is Hashem and when adonai it is to the angels. But you would rather believe in a man-god rather than Hashem as ONE, and “besides Him there is no other”.
Lion, you keep repeating the same argument over and over, ignoring our responses. Are you hear only to talk, or also to listen and respond?
Dina it is strange that you say that when I asked this and was not responded:
Eliyah Lion says:
June 29, 2015 at 9:43 am
Yisroel you said: ”Eliyahu I guess you are not an “Orthodox” Christian because you came here telling us that we worship “heylel” and to try to get us to worship the man that you idolize. I never said that the Law as a whole is suspended with the destruction – I said that capital punishment is suspended without a Temple”
1) Do you know what Orthodox Christian means?
2) Do you think that your worship of heylel is intentional or even known to you?
3) Do you know what was the Messiah mission on this earth?
4) Do you who was the form of YHWH that Mosheh saw in Numbers?
Yisroel you have been deluded for more than 2000 years and still hanging on to your carnal view of Scriptures. Only a purified mind can see truly!!
I’m really disgusted by this constant sanctimonious self adulation you have. Purified mind??? Get real. If you had such purity of mind would you mislead people in your Hebrew knowledge. It has been proven, without any doubt, that you have mislead the people here on that account. You were unable to recognize “mouth to mouth” until it was pointed out to you. This is probably one of the first words a little Jewish kid would learn, yet you couldn’t discern it.
Sharbano you accusations are baseless. I referred to the English Text New King James Version first I did not use the Hebrew first. And what this has to do with the arguments provided that destroys your false interpretations of Tanakh and Torah which your sect has brainwashed you with.
Convert to real and true Religion the one of Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov. The one who Moseh saw and felt mouth to mouth… You are so far from the truth blinded by your misunderstanding by lies and deceits coming from your mother Babylon… Get out of Her and may be you will be saved!!
How would you “know” of the “religion” of the patriarchs. Your entire knowledge has its “ORIGIN” in the Xtian text first and foremost. You have never been introduced to True Torah teachings that came from Moshe at Sinai and handed down from generation to generation. Do you think Moshe didn’t know what he spoke about. What HE taught is the same as what is taught today. Your teaching if foreign to G-d, Jews, and Judaism. We all know what Torah teaches about foreign gods. There are warnings From Moshe regarding “wood and stone”, Xtianity and Islam. You have admitted how paramount the (wood) cross is in your religion. We follow Neither wood, Nor stone.
Lion, I was referring to the argument you keep presenting over and over and over again that God appeared in a physical form throughout Scripture; this form was Jesus; therefore your worship of Jesus is justified.
We have responded to that argument many times over and you have ignored our responses, simply repeating the same argument yet again. It gets tiresome talking to someone who keeps his fingers stuffed in his ears.
Sharbano come on you did not believe Misrahi when he talked about wood and stone. That is so out of context from the text of Tanakh. You accuse the Christian of taking prophetic passage applied to the Messiah and you do so much worse by following the teaching of a blind man. How pathetic from your part!!
I could debate you Misrahi and destroy all the lies he teaches on JC like he likes to call Him. This false rabbi is a poisoning your mind with false mishnah. The pure Mishnah you reject: choosing men instead of Eloah. How idolatrous you are!!
What are you talking about – Mizrachi.
There IS a distinct correlation between Xtianity and Islam regarding sin. Xtian has a cross of wood that their sins are upon. As you yourself stated, the cross as altar. Now, in Mecca the black stone serves the same purpose, to deposit the sins of the person. There wood and stone of these to religions are methods of salvation. As it says, wood and stone, that cannot save. There is no other answer but this. Both your religions each rely on their own salvation conduits.
Sharbano then explain who are the sillver and gold referring to:
Deuteronomy 29:17
and you saw their abominations and their idols which were among them—wood and stone and silver and gold
You theory is crashing like mere speculation…
36 “The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods—wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you. (Deuteronomy 28)
Sharbano this is your country of origin… Again your speculation is crumbling. That is what happen when you follow Mizrachi…
You continue to make my point and confirm it.
Just a who a is a Yas a who a?
Maybe he is Zeus? Very interesting indeed.
http://www.hiddenbible.com/jesuszeus/jesuszeus.html
Sharbano your one line response show that your are of bad faith. If you were a genuine Jew you will take time to explain your theory correctly. Again what about this passage of Deuteronomy 29 who are the silver and gold… If wood and stone are what you said … Silver and gold are which religion …Hinduism??
Deuteronomy 29:17
and you saw their abominations and their idols which were among them—wood and stone and silver and gold…
Be consistent Sharbano develop your theory or may be you need Mizrachi help…
You really are a beginner at this aren’t you. If you made the effort to “study” scriptures instead of coming to some esoteric interpretation you would have known that people use silver and gold for adornment. Tanach Does explain itself if one makes the effort to learn.
I must say when you referred to a wood cross as an altar that was quite compelling in concluding what the words mean, especially since you consider Your sect as the only authentic one. It makes the meaning even more true.
Larry interesting link. You just realize that …
1)I do not refer to this name but to יהושע Yahushuo which mean YHWH saves
2)Orthodox Christianity is not a sect but a religion
3)Sects are heretics from Judaism or Christianity that have gone astray clinging on to false doctrine coming from men or demons
4)False religions are all the religions that do not invoke pray and worship the true Elohim: Elohei Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov and do not recognize the true Messiah of Israel
Hi E.L.
You wrote:
Elohei Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov and do not recognize the true Messiah of Israel
My commentary:
That’s interesting coming from a Christian, because Jesus said in John 8:56,
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day,
and he saw it, and was glad.”
Yisroel said: “… the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. The standard that the people are to use is to see if the prophet is encouraging a worship that they did not know. If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere.”
Yisroel you are right but where we differ is here: “If Jesus was encouraging worship of himself (as all Trinitarian Christians believe he was) then he was a false prophet according to the standard of the very Bible Jesus claimed to revere”
Yahushuo proved his claim by His Resurrection for no power can resurrect flesh to a spiritual form unless YHWH does it by the power of His Ruah. The claim of YAHUSHUO is the claim of the Elohim. You deny the Resurrection because you know the consequence for your false view. Saul-Paul conversion came from the Resurrection without it Paul would have still been a pharisee. His conversion is a powerful testimony that Yahushuo Himself is the living Torah Master of Time and Space the One designated by YHWH to destroy the power of the Heylel.
One man has a vision and you base your entire religion on THAT. Paul wasn’t the first, nor the last to have made such a claim.
It is the same with the resurrection. Not only do the stories differ but who saw him. It’s the Applewhite Theorem at its best.
Eliyahu according to your ever-changing “ruah” a resurrection may “prove” something – but according to the eternal words of God the standard to measure a prophet is NOT a resurrection but conformance to the testimony of God’s witnesses and this Jesus failed to do
ypfriend “the text does not say that the death of the false prophet is a confirmation of the falsehood of his prophecy. the death of the false prophet is a commandment – the people are commanded to put the prophet to death. ”
God says put such to death, then He raises Jesus back to life. Do you see what I meant? If someone was to be put to death that was followed by staying in that state; staying dead! not back to life or else God acts against His own word.
Eric, a false prophet can rise to life. Read your book of revelation chapter 13.
Con, he ( false prophet) rises to life followed by everlasting judgement. Did Jesus raise to judgement ? No, the opposite , revelation and gospels shows he is the one through whom God will judge everybody! And all info about antichrist is based on NT not OT , since when all of a sudden NT is a source of a message to support any claims to you???
Eric, Deuteronomy 13 teaches that if any self-proclaimed prophet teaches a new way to worship God then he is a false prophet NO MATTER WHAT. The text says that if that is the case, we should not be swayed by his miracle making, because God is testing us to see if we love Him. The text does not add an exception: “But if he rises to life after three days, then listen to whatever he says, no matter how new and different.”
You’re adding your own disclaimers that are not in the Torah.
By the way, the resurrection never even happened, did I mention that already? Did I, or maybe Jim, or someone, explain why that story is so terribly shaky? Hmm, not sure…if not, let me know…I’ll be happy to supply the details.
it is shaky to you, not to us.
Eric Not if that was the sign of the false prophet and Jesus was not put to death by a qualified court of Torah arbitrators
ypfriend, More qualified God than ‘qualified court of Torah arbitrators’ raises jesus back to life as there is nothing that holds Jesus back to say dead.
ypfriend, ” according to the eternal words of God the standard to measure a prophet is NOT a resurrection but conformance to the testimony of God’s witnesses and this Jesus failed to do”
That is your judgement but according to Daniel 12;2 resurrection belongs only to the righteous ones. If Jesus failed he should have stayed dead, yet God proved differently.
Eric Daniel 12:2 is NOT talking about a standard of measuring prophets Deuteronomy 13 is. Why do you turn to a passage that is different than the one that God would have you read in relation to this discussion?
ypfriend, Daniel 12;2 gives you the whole picture, it tells you false, wicked etc rise to eternal condemnation. That should tell you something why Jesus rises to life and not to judgement.
“Yahushuo proved his claim by His Resurrection for no power can resurrect flesh to a spiritual form unless YHWH does it by the power of His Ruah.”
Lion, where does the Hebrew Bible teach this?
“You deny the Resurrection because you know the consequence for your false view.”
What are the consequences? What do you think Rabbi Blumenthal is afraid of? Just curious. (I hope you don’t mind my asking, Rabbi B.)
Dina, They record that word of the resurrection spread 50 days after the supposed event, so what is the point of a sign that you can’t see, that you have to rely on hearsay? That’s not a sign!
Jesus didn’t wait 50 days to be seen , he was seen right after being risen at the tomb. He was coming to see different people at different time in whatever places they were, either on the road, at home , in town etc. He did only what God told him to do nor ‘ serving’ peoples on request.
I didn’t say that all other miracles don’t necessarily prove a prophet is true! Where is that? It was rather what I heard from you; that no miracle prove anything!
I said that when Jesus said’ no other sign will be given but sign of Jonah’, it didn’t mean that that was to be the only proving sign but that pharisees were able to witness many other previous miracles( predicted that the Messiah would do) yet still didn’t believe.
“And you still have not proved that Jesus was justified in not fulfilling his sign to the Pharisees. He even says they don’t deserve it(..) ”
He didn’t say ‘ they didn’t deserve it.’ That is a your conclusion nowhere found.Sorry.
You ignored the fact that I presented that they were all well informed about his resurrection and why was the reason for them to bribe the witnessing guards? Why to distort the truth? No wonder Jesus called they as he did.
“If Jesus were as popular and famous as the gospels described, it’s inconceivable that no one would have mentioned him. As it is, what references there are have been proven to be later Christian interpolations.”
So that proves my point for him being rejected for a reason. Not everybody likes to hear the call to repentance and turn to God. The whole world won’t say with applause; ” what a great message Jesus ” and will do as he said, no different as with Jews telling the whole world to repent. He lived during the time where knowledge about living God among gentiles was so distorted by pagan worship of stone made gods. The gospels and epistles tell you about what it meant to be popular.
It meant to be appreciated, accepted by those who wanted to hear word of God and decided to come to him through Jesus’s message. Appreciation, thankfulness was due to fact that they were forgiven!
yes, you know every word that Pilat said… every word of his conversation has been recorded and it is not matching with gospels.. interesting Dina. Moon is really mane of cheese. I am sure you would good it supporting that, too!
As far as pharisees of jesus time, God knows their hearts not historians. And why jesus was able to had a normal conversation with Nicodemus without calling him anything alike as the others? He belonged to the same group yet his heart was looking for the truth.
Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20553
I won’t respond to the first part because I saw that Con responded to it, and I don’t have anything to add to what he said. You responded to that as well, so when I get to it I will add my thoughts.
Instead, I’ll address the historical record. This is a bit difficult because your only knowledge of the time period comes from your scripture, and you haven’t studied other sources. But I’ll try to clarify, at any rate.
I argued that Jesus could not have been as famous and popular as the gospels claim or historians of the time period would have mentioned him. Your response was that of course they wouldn’t mention him because they didn’t want to hear his message. There are two problems with this.
Number one, the historians I mentioned were neither Pharisees nor Sadducees, and therefore had no reason not to report a word about such a great leader. They were not his theological enemies. They were either Hellenized Jews or Romans. In other words, they had no axe to grind, no horse in this race, and all similar clichés.
Number two, conspiracies about cover-ups of major events of history don’t hold any water. They just don’t happen. For example, in the seventeenth century a false messiah by the name of Shabbetai Zvi arose. Although the rabbis spoke out against him, he was enormously popular among the masses. People gushed about the miracles he performed (sounds familiar?). However, when he converted to Islam his popularity died.
We know about Shabbetai Zvi, his popularity, his charisma, and the opposition of the rabbis from various historical records. Although a lot of people “rejected” his message, they nevertheless recorded these events.
Your conspiracy theory that various historians who didn’t know each other and who would not have even felt threatened by Jesus’s message somehow conspired to suppress any record of the supposed events of Christian scripture is just not credible.
You wrote: “yes, you know every word that Pilat said… every word of his conversation has been recorded and it is not matching with gospels.. interesting Dina. Moon is really mane of cheese. I am sure you would good it supporting that, too!”
If you knew the history of the time period and the role Pilate played, you would be less quick to sneer. We know from the historical record that Pilate was so brutal and massacred so many Jews that even the Romans were horrified. He was stripped of his post and recalled to Rome after one massacre too many. It is inconceivable that this cruel, wanton, corrupt, dishonest official to whom Jewish lives meant absolutely nothing would have behaved the way the meek and even righteous Pilate of the gospels behaves, cowed by a Jewish mob. Inconceivable!
I don’t have to know every interaction Pilate ever had to know that the description of his character in Christian scripture doesn’t match the historical Pilate. All I need is common sense to make that deduction.
Another example is one that I believe Sharbano pointed out, and that is concerning the massacre of the baby boys. Such a tragedy on such a mass scale would not have gone unremarked by Jews. Josephus wrote tens of chapters on Herod but does not mention this massacre ever. You would think it would have been major news! Rather, it seems Matthew made it up to parallel Pharaoh’s decree to kill all Jewish baby boys to prevent their leader from growing up to save them.
By the way, if the moon were made of cheese, I would totally eat it. I love cheese!
Dina, I combined some of your messages as it is to many;
God didn’t have to wait till Jesus comes into scene to fulfill His promises about resurrection. Nobody has been resurrected to eternal life yet, till Messiah’ coming.
“I do not understand your belief that Jesus redeemed the world from death (well, not the whole world, but those who accept him).”
You do not understand that accepting Jesus means accepting God because to you Jesus is not God’s servant. Accepting the one God sends and speaks through means accepting God. Those will have life with God.
….
“[I am the One] Who forms light and creates darkness; Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Maker of all of these” (Isaiah 45:7).
My question refereed to ; is God an author of evil deciding for others to do crimes against others, like Nazi against Jews? Or do people have free will which may result in bad choices like turning to crimes against others but God may allow the situation to happen for a purpose? I expected an answer not just quotes as they may have a multiple understanding.
When God creates one thing the opposite is automatically created when you create one thing like light, you automatically have darkness where there is no light.
Where there is a mind that doesn’t follow God , you automatically have a person who does things against Him and others. But God is in control and aware of all situations not an author of a person crimes.. He may allow you to be in the hands of an oppressor for a lesson, or because of your own mistakes, but that doesn’t mean He is an author of the oppressors’ crimes. Just clarifying whether we understand it the same way. That also justifies the fact why the oppressors of God’s people are subject to God’s judgement although we read it is God who ‘ created’ that cursed situation .
…
“You have to first believe your NT in order to believe all this stuff.”
It is like saying you have to first believe OT to learn how God lead His people ( to believe it) as even those who tell you facts know them based on their previous reading.” Also NT is fulfillment of promises. You would not know whether Jesus suffered and died or not for others if you didn’t read anything. ( unless you were an eye witness.)
….
“promise of resurrection was given before Jesus ever entered the scene, and most important”
And promise of a coming redeemer was given even before the resurrection was mentioned.
Eric, you missed my point about the promise of resurrection. You believe that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected, since his sacrifice conquered the death that Adam brought to the world.
But although Adam brought death to the world, God promised resurrection at the end of days, even though Jesus hadn’t supposedly conquered death yet. We are told that the righteous will be resurrected, and we are taught how to become righteous. The Torah, as I have already said, lays out a complete path toward repentance and righteousness, leaving no room for belief in a demi-god messiah.
When I wrote that I do not understand your belief that Jesus conquered death for those who believe in him, you did not address the reason I gave for not understanding it. Instead, you wrote this: “You do not understand that accepting Jesus means accepting God because to you Jesus is not God’s servant.”
I have argued in the past that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Don’t deny it! It’s the height of dishonesty to say that Jesus did not come up with an innovation. And this innovation makes him a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13. (You argued that someone who is resurrected must be listened to no matter what; this chapter teaches that no miracle is sufficient to follow someone who contradicts the Torah.)
Also, the authority you accord Jesus violates God’s clear teachings in Deuteronomy 4–that we are to worship God only according the knowledge of Himself that He imparted to us at Sinai. And how are to transmit this knowledge to successive generations? The same chapter teaches us that we are to do this by teaching it, father to son. God furthermore instructs us in Isaiah that beside Him there is no savior and that He shares His glory with no one.
You have yet to address Deuteronomy 4 and these passages in Isaiah. You have merely asserted in the past that God uses human agents through which to save, like Moses. You never addressed the fact that Jews have only ever viewed Moses that way–as a human tool of God’s. Once he died, we turned to the next leader to guide us, and there was never any requirement to “accept” any leader “as your lord and savior” in order to be saved. In fact, this is idolatry and forbidden. There is no parallel between the simple Jewish respect for Moses and the Christian worship of Jesus. Even if you do not worship Jesus as a god, you have made a man the focus and center of your religion. Jews have never made Moses or any man the the focus and center of their religion, God forbid!
I’m not going to address the fact that God created everything, light and darkness (clearly stated in Genesis; it does not say that the darkness was automatically created as a result of the creation of light), good and evil. God states so Himself, and it’s pretty clear. It’s a minor point, and I see no need to dwell on it.
You wrote: ” But God is in control and aware of all situations not an author of a person crimes.. He may allow you to be in the hands of an oppressor for a lesson, or because of your own mistakes, but that doesn’t mean He is an author of the oppressors’ crimes. Just clarifying whether we understand it the same way. That also justifies the fact why the oppressors of God’s people are subject to God’s judgement although we read it is God who ‘ created’ that cursed situation .”
I agree. I’m glad to find we can agree on something!
Dina, ‘Eric, you missed my point about the promise of resurrection.’
I am not insisting that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected because there might be people who repented and lived with God but never heard of Jesus. The same way like Jesus’ sacrifice is also for those who lived before him and trusted in God like David, Abraham and many others. They all associated future life after death with God’s redemption.
“But although Adam brought death to the world, God promised resurrection at the end of days, even though Jesus hadn’t supposedly conquered death yet.”
You do not understand that the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption. It is based on the servant’s justification in Is 53 which you interpret as you- -justifying us. ( in the future or so,) Jesus’ justification relates to all people who lived before him and after him. Anyways in God’s plan resurrection is not until Messiah comes to reign in his kingdom.
“We are told that the righteous will be resurrected, and we are taught how to become righteous.”
We know how to become righteous but we fail, like David, Salomon and others that’s why our justification is based on our trust in God’s grace based on listening to His voice. And if God speaks to us through his son, listening to him it is part of obeying God.
You said that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Jesus didn’t change people’s approach to God ; love your God with all your hear and mind and soul and others as yourself- is still the most important principle. All law is based on these two commandments.
There is no innovation in it. Coming to Jesus means putting God on the first place. You accept it or twist it and make it be more than it is.
As far as your accusation of him being a false prophet; you put him to death thinking this is what Jesus deserved. God showed you; He raised him back to life proving you he didn’t deserve death. God didn’t support the judgement you put him on. Torah doesn’t tell you that false prophet will go back to life afterways.
You bring things against Jesus’ words as violation to Deut 4. But examples of violation are not from jesus but based on other Christians’ approach. Jesus doesn’t teach you to put him above God. What he said about himself was being Son of God and the Messiah, the one who was sent by Father , the one who was doing what Father told him to do, and not replacing Father in heaven. So do not confuse anti-christian arguments with what is not in his teaching. And as far as Moses viewed as God’s tool via Jesus- you deny even a fact of accepting Jesus as God’s tool. And then you will still present arguments against him being God’s chosen leader because some Christians make him God. You make him Son of God and that will go along with what God said about him.
When I spoke about God being in control in the middle of evil events, I meant He is not responsible for making somebody to be evil. And that is finally clear. And that was to refer to that ‘snake/serpent debate’ . God didn’t create a smart understanding animal to fool others and then punish him for the work he( serpent) did. If God’s purpose was really to make an animal that deceiving for a purpose, the serpent would not need the judgement as his obligation was to carry on his work of ‘temptation’ and only those who bought his lies should be subject to judgement not serpent himself. So it is logical that whatever voice spoke through the serpent it was not just an animal but the spirit voluntarily opposing God and leading others to sin.
( and we call that opposition- satan ) As a voluntary opposition he deserved punishment. Anyways God being in control of that evil action allowed that situation to happen to test whether Adam chooses obeying God or obeying some other voice.
I hope that is obvious too.
Eric, your comment deserves more time and attention than I can give to it right now, but I just want to quickly comment on one point:
“I am not insisting that only those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected because there might be people who repented and lived with God but never heard of Jesus.”
Here you admit the possibility that one can repent and live with God without Jesus. So what gives?
Eric, I’m catching up on old comments, so I’ll refer to them as I respond to them (I have six comments of yours awaiting my response).
In reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20904
“You do not understand that the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption. It is based on the servant’s justification in Is 53 which you interpret as you- -justifying us.”
No, the Hebrew Bible does not teach that the resurrection is connected to belief in a Messiah who sacrificed himself to save everyone from sin and death. Even your interpretation of Isaiah 53 doesn’t teach that one must believe in the Messiah in order to attain eternal life.
You wrote that “the promise of resurrection was always connected with Jesus future sacrifice and justification /future salvation and redemption” (emphasis added).
Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully. Always? In fact, never. Not once is the promise of resurrection ever connected with “Jesus future sacrifice and justification.” Even Isaiah 53 according to you interpretation does not connect it because that passage promises long life (in your interpretation, “resurrection”) only to the servant if he does what God expects of him. The promise of resurrection is not clearly spelled out the way it is in Ezekiel, for example, nor is it promised to everyone.
“We know how to become righteous but we fail, like David, Salomon and others.”
But repentance worked for them and it works for us too. That is what the Bible teaches.
“You said that Jesus introduced an entirely new way to worship God. Jesus didn’t change people’s approach to God ; love your God with all your hear and mind and soul and others as yourself- is still the most important principle. All law is based on these two commandments.
There is no innovation in it. Coming to Jesus means putting God on the first place. You accept it or twist it and make it be more than it is.”
This is just dishonest, Eric. Not that I think you are intentionally dishonest. You are very sincere. But nevertheless this is dishonest. Why? Because we Jews already put God in the first place and the only place. We Jews already believe in the fundamental principle of “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might,” which is part of our liturgy that we say three times a day. We already accept that, as Hillel taught in the Talmud, “love your fellow as yourself” is the whole Torah; everything else is commentary.
So of course it’s an innovation to say that the complete path to repentance laid out in the Torah is not enough, that our beliefs that I just outlined above are not enough, that our Torah observance and obedience to God’s commandments are not enough, but that you also must accept another human being as your lord and savior to attain eternal life–without that everything else counts for nothing.
That is absolutely an innovation because there is no such teaching anywhere in the whole entire Hebrew Bible, even in Isaiah 53.
That is why it completely violates Deuteronomy 4 and 13 and the commandment not to add or subtract to the Law.
“As far as your accusation of him being a false prophet; you put him to death thinking this is what Jesus deserved.”
I put him to death? Are you accusing me of deicide, now, Eric? The Romans put him to death because that is what they did to messianic claimants. Such people were a direct threat to the empire. The Jews had nothing to do with it except in the imagination of the gospel writers.
“God showed you; He raised him back to life proving you he didn’t deserve death. God didn’t support the judgement you put him on. Torah doesn’t tell you that false prophet will go back to life afterways.”
I don’t believe God raised him back to life. But even if He did (which He didn’t!), God warns us that no kind of miracle can justify the introduction of a new kind of worship (and make no mistake: “I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one comes to the Father except through me” is a new kind of worship). God says that He Himself is testing us to see if He loves us (read Deuteronomy 13 again). He didn’t rule out any kind of miracle.
I tell you, Eric, you can deny it till you’re blue in the face, but if Jesus wanted his resurrection to be believed, he should have shown himself to doubters and believers alike, to the whole nation of Israel, the way that God spoke to Moses from a cloud in front of the whole nation so everyone would believe, the doubters and believers alike (Exodus 19:9). For such an important revelation, it’s fair to demand the same standard of evidence.
But such a thing could never happen because God said that our worship of Him must never change.
” And as far as Moses viewed as God’s tool via Jesus- you deny even a fact of accepting Jesus as God’s tool.”
If all Jesus did was teach the people about repentance and turning to God and saying nothing at all about himself, or belief in himself, then I would have no problem with him. But even non-Trinitarian Christians like you give him way more authority than any human deserves, making him the only way to God, something not taught anywhere in the Hebrew Bible and thus an innovation in worship. Jesus, a mere man, is the center and focus of Christianity. God and only God is the center and focus of Judaism.
But having said all that, of course Jesus is God’s tool. We all are, in some sense. Although, not in the sense you might think.
As for your snake argument, it’s a whole lot of hooey. You have taken the text and given it a meaning that is simply not there. The Torah doesn’t teach a word of what you said. I still think it’s bizarre for Christians who did not receive the Torah from God to tell those who did how to understand it. It takes a lot of hubris, my friend.
Dina, You said “in reality this blog tries to ward off Christian missionaries by explaining and defending our position”
You might be defending your position and Christians will do as well, as either side will be sure they are right. The point of defending our position is to show you that there was a need for God sending His son and it has nothing to do with somebody feeling attacked ( so we write back).
So your conclusion is wrong that Christians get indignant or feel attacked and threatened. I am not sure here who is more insecure, the one who gives doubts to what he believes, or the one who is sure his faith is stable and built on solid ground so it doesn’t crush under somebody’s words.
I do not need more amount of evidence as God as I have evidence in God’s word and God is capable to prove His words are true he said about His son. We are given peace and we are given His spirit that we belong to Him ( which jesus said will happen after coming to God) . This so called ‘ redemptive experience’ which is undeniable to everybody who came to God and believed Jesus is His son. If I have peace with God I suggest others to worry and focus on evaluating themselves and not to worry about me. Simple.
“To grow, one must always be open to the possibility that he is wrong. ”
Are you saying that about yourself? Would you accept possibility for Jesus being the Messiah? It doesn’t look like.. but we have to be open he might not be the one we think …hmmm. suggesting one sided openness?
Then you said “no Christian has been able to meet this standard( of yours) in proving Christian doctrines” Or there might be a possibility that your interpretation of facts is not always seen with how God made it to be. let’s list examples; based on Is 53 justifying others can be Jesus or the nation, In Gen3 crushed head of the serpent can mean being wounded while conquering the enemy of God’s people or it is just a message of ‘inconvenient wild animal encounter’ , at Passover ; the sacrifice of lamb and marks of blood might be just as God’s way of sense of humor to tease Egyptians or a sign and indication of price paid for being saved from God’s judgement ( which applies to being saved from God’s judgement in general. Sacrifices can be a sign of price involved in removing our sins or just bloody ritual with no deeper purposes whatsoever. If God is love then there is His grace, but God is also justice so there has to be price paid.) The list can go …
“Do you have a standard of evidence, barring miracles, revelation, and other supernatural events?” It is continued in TN that you reject so why are you even asking?
Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20905
You made some sarcastic comments about my one-sided open-mindedness, that I should expect you to be open to the possibility that you are wrong but that I am not open to the possibility that I might be wrong.
You should not be so quick to make assumptions about other people.
In my early adulthood, I was troubled by the question that I was an observant Jew only because I had been raised to be one. I had to find the truth for myself, and I started at the beginning. Since all the religions of the world contradict each other on fundamentals, then either only one of them is true or none of them are true. That was my starting point.
When I came to Christianity, I was surprised at how quickly it unraveled. If you accept the Torah as false, Christianity is false; if you accept the Torah as true, Christianity doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in its light.
It was this experience that got me reading a lot about Jewish history, Christian anti-Semitism, and Christian-Jewish polemics in general.
I believe that complacency (what you call peace with God) is dangerous because it stops you from growing. There are always higher levels of truth to attain, you can always deepen your human relationships, and you can always strengthen your connection with God. You’re not done until you die.
You wrote: “Then you said “no Christian has been able to meet this standard( of yours) in proving Christian doctrines” Or there might be a possibility that your interpretation of facts is not always seen with how God made it to be. let’s list examples; based on Is 53 justifying others can be Jesus or the nation, In Gen3 crushed head of the serpent etc.”
I don’t think you know what I mean when I say a clear and direct teaching. I don’t mean a passage that can be interpreted. I mean a passage that is so clear that its meaning cannot be disputed. Here is an example of what I mean:
“You shall not murder.”
That is clear and direct.
“You shall believe in the Messiah and accept him as your lord and savior in order to live forever” would be a clear and direct teaching. Okay?
All the teachings that we present from the Hebrew Bible, such as Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33, the Ten Commandments, are clear and direct teachings in contrast to the highly unclear and highly disputed passages that you presented that not even all Christians agree on the interpretation. But no one, neither Christian nor Jew, disputes the teachings I just cited.
That’s the standard. If God commands it, I will try my best to follow it.
Dina, “the Sabbath is an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people, and there is one group of Jewish people that has never stopped observing the Sabbath: ”
Can you prove that nobody ever stopped in that ‘chain’ ?
As you said Sabbath is a sign; not to be just for the sake of being ‘ between’ people and God but a sign for a reason to point to something; taking time of relationship with God.
When Jesus said he is the lord of the Sabbath, it means he is an author of restored relationship with God and peace with God through his sacrifice for us. So we can enjoy that relationship with God any time every day. I have nothing against keeping Sabbath a set day apart especially for God only ( even Jesus didn’t call people to give it up) but observing it doesn’t indicate somebody does it for relationship with God but he may just do it because of a tradition. That’s why I say; no preserved chain and no denomination that is better than the others.
“Eric Its not a matter of judging the people if they are righteous or not – it is a matter of determining which testimony is God talking about when He calls Israel His witnesses. What does God mean when He says to follow His Law – which group of people are the repository of His truth.”
Those whom you call ‘ repository of His truth’ and God’s witnesses also need restoration according to Isa 49. And I do not have a problem with God’s messiah ( Jesus) being that rest- orator. All nations will be attracted to his knowledge and teaching ( Is 11)
Eric, I can’t believe you wrote this:
“Dina, “the Sabbath is an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people, and there is one group of Jewish people that has never stopped observing the Sabbath: ”
Can you prove that nobody ever stopped in that ‘chain’ ?”
Before I answer your question, when I say “group of people” I never mean every single person in that group. Of course people in that group fell away from observance–and were lost to the Jewish people, tragically–but there was always a core that remained. I don’t know why whenever I say group of people you think I mean every single individual.
But I can’t believe you even asked, and I hardly know where to begin.
First, are you disputing God’s word? God says that the Sabbath will be an eternal sign between Him and the Jewish people. Eternal means forever. It means the Jewish people will never stop keeping this commandment. Do you take God seriously? Or are you only interested in what He has to say if you can twist it to support your theology?
Second, are you so ignorant of history that you are really unaware that the historical record shows an unbroken chain of observant Jews? Observant Jews wrote books in just about every generation, their gentile contemporaries wrote about them–can you really ignore the weight of historical evidence?
Third, do you think I sprang out of nowhere? I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai. Who do you think the Jewish people are, Eric? A modern group of people who appeared in the twentieth century?
Finally, here’s a fact that you refuse to acknowledge but the historical record proves it and the statistics prove it. Every single Jew today, whether secular or observant, is descended from Orthodox Jews. And that has always been the case. That is why I keep saying that even Christian writers of Jewish history have observed that rabbinic (or Pharisaic or Orthodox) Judaism is the only form that has been able to survive physically and spiritually.
Man, I’m shaking my head, Eric. If you wanted to prove the moon were made of cheese, you would ignore all evidence to the contrary!
You wrote: “As you said Sabbath is a sign; not to be just for the sake of being ‘ between’ people and God but a sign for a reason to point to something; taking time of relationship with God.”
Actually, the Torah gives us a reason for the sign. See Exodus 31:13 and 17; Deuteronomy 5:15.
“Those whom you call ‘ repository of His truth’ and God’s witnesses also need restoration according to Isa 49.” We already explained that the righteous remnant will restore the rest of Israel to God.
Dina,
“Number one, the historians I mentioned were neither Pharisees nor Sadducees, and therefore had no reason not to report a word about such a great leader. ”
For those to whom Jesus was not theologically related, he was just a fellow who died without a purpose of his teaching and no reason to be mentioned.
“For those to whom Jesus was not theologically related, he was just a fellow who died without a purpose of his teaching and no reason to be mentioned.”
Eric, you missed my point about Shabbetai Zvi. When a phenomenon like that occurs, whether people have a theological investment in it or not, they record it. History doesn’t ignore things like that. Or else you have to believe that Jesus’s case was unique. Other charismatic leaders who promised the world and failed spectacularly made it into the news, but everyone ignored Jesus. Really, if you wanted to prove the moon were made of cheese…
Dina, Nobody ignored Jesus. God made it possible that NT is read all over the world in every almost language and country unlike the books of other charismatic leaders known only to a certain group. (if even so) And even before the print was so available like now that you print any book you want to in thousands, God made it possible that all about jesus preserved till now and didn’t die out with one of European plagues , wars or disasters , neither among persecuted believers in every century..
{God made it possible that NT is read all over the world in every almost language and country}
Really???
You ignore your own church history. It was spread by the sword of the church, and its heavy-handedness. Xtians like to put a nice face on it. Believe or Die was the motto. By the same token they misrepresent Isaiah 53. We can say the same thing about Islam. In that church zealotry they DID try to destroy Jewish knowledge, with their book (Talmud) burnings etc.Xtians like to play nice today, and forget the past, except when it suits them, as here.
Sharbano, NT is printed all over the world without killing anybody and accepted by people who themselves pay price for their faith and are persecuted in many Asian countries if they want to believe in Jesus.
Mine was in reference to History. The church expanded throughout the entire world by the sword. It’s how America was founded.
The church didn’t go into all these countries to sit down and teach the pagans but stole their gold and murdered the lot of them.
I saw a debate in Canada with a Rabbi, a Xtian, and a Canadian Indian of some nationality. She described what happened to her people, and it wasn’t all that long ago. The church people came to their communities and forbade them their culture and forced the conversion of their entire people. She was So offended by their actions and the loss of their culture, which she was trying to reinstate, that she actually despised Xtians.
The American Indian is another example, of what happens to those who don’t accept a Xtian god. I’m not all that learned in their culture but from everything I can gather there is nothing essentially pagan in their culture. If this is the case what would happen to them. Interestingly, the first Xtians took one look at them and thought They were demons running around.
Eric The kids in my community never heard of Jesus
ypfriend, “Eric The kids in my community never heard of Jesus”
Wow, what a surprise ? Since when Jews are even WILLING’ to hear about him or make him known? What type of statement you put!
Eric Did the kids in your community hear about Joseph Smith?
Ypfriend, there is no account in the bible about him, for what sake he should bother me??
Eric There is no account about Jesus in my Bible too so why should he bother me or my kids?
ypfriend, you made a choice not to include Jesus. Smith is neither part of NT nor OT.
Eric Jesus is not part of the Jewish Bible – its not a matter of choice he’s not there. Smith is part of the book of Mormon – which is as meaningful to my community as the Christian Scriptures.
ypfriend, everything is a matter of choice. You make decisions. Before NT became ‘non- jewish bible’ it was Jewish till somebody made it an ‘alien’.
Eric The Christian Scriptures were NEVER the “Jewish Bible” – they are the books of one particular group of Jews – the same standard that tells us that the Jewish scriptures are God’s word tells us that the Christian Scriptures are not – by the way – Mormons would tell you that the book of Mormon is as authoritative as the Christian Scriptures and should be considered as such except for the fact that establishment Christianity made it “alien”
Geeez, he was making an analogy. Smith has no importance for you the same as Jsus has no importance to us.
Dina, “in the seventeenth century a false messiah by the name of Shabbetai Zvi arose. Although the rabbis spoke out against him, he was enormously popular among the masses. People gushed about the miracles he performed (sounds familiar?). However, when he converted to Islam his popularity died. ”
Unlike all the others they were not resurrected to eternal life with God like Jesus.
Popularity of jesus didn’t die with his going to the Father ( in heaven). God hears people’s prayers in Jesus name, which includes acknowledging Jesus as God’s son and what God has done through him. Through Jesus , criminals are able to come to God and repent and take a turn in their lives toward relationship with God they never had. They ‘experience’ forgiveness, Jesus message still changes their lives. It is not just empty words and memories.
Eric, Daniel 12:2 makes no such declaration that only the righteous rise! It says some will Awake to Everlasting life, OTHERS TO EVERLASTING CONTEMPT, the implication being that even the wicked can rise to life, but to everlasting contempt. Again, revelation 13 also says that the anti Christ of you Christians will say he is G-d, suffer a deadly wound, and be healed, tricking all nations. Your claim here then is soundly refuted, even by your own belief system.
Touché, Con!
Con, “Eric, Daniel 12:2 makes no such declaration that only the righteous rise!”
When I am talking about everlasting life for the righteous ones I mean life as a reward , life free of death, life with God to forever enjoy God. So I am not talking about those who will wake up to EVERLASTING CONTEMPT, or condemnation. They will suffer judgement not enjoying God.
There is a difference between a reward and condemnation. I though it should be obvious to you.
You said according to revelation anti-christ will say he is G-d, suffer a deadly wound, and be healed, tricking all nations. Then you go;
“Your claim here then is soundly refuted, even by your own belief system.” REALLY? What is refuted here? Anti-christ as a tempter and distorter of God’s word will be PRESENT temporary in God’s plan in the end times for a reason, but he is not to live forever! Read revelation what is his end! Rev 20;10 terrible judgement is his end not everlasting life with God!
You are like a leaves in the wind. Whatever direction the wind blows you are there.
Con, I will make it clear “anti-christ is not to live forever!” by that I mean forever to enjoy life. Everlasting judgement and everlasting reward- life are two different things!
And when we talked about jesus as being risen back to life as a righteous one he was not risen to life of everlasting judgement but to life with God and reigning with Him.
I would suggest that if J’sus’ resurrection is valid then by rights he should have appeared to others in subsequent generations. He has been silent since the text was written.
In Jewish Tradition Elijah has visited various Rabbis in subsequent generations, so why not J’sus.
That’s a meaningless distinction. How do you tell the difference between a true ressurection, and a false messiahs ressurection? The claim and miracle itself proves nothing.
If a false teacher can rise in a fake way, how do you distinguish the true from the false?
Con, “If a false teacher can rise in a fake way, how do you distinguish the true from the false?”
How can you rise to life in a fake way? You either do or not. You are either back alive or not. Don’t you???
The only message on deadly- wounded anti-christ deceiver is in Revelation it is a message that is clearly stated. All details predicted. No surprise, only to those who don’t want to know God. God tells you what will happen and how that person will act and end up. If you know the scriptures you can’t be mistaken. Th e false prophet is not said to go to God but act on earth and then end up in judgement.
You are missing my point Eric. It is only You Christians who are the ones saying to everyone on planet earth that there is one person, Jesus, who is G-d, who you say that we must accept his teaching, or perish and be punished eternally just for saying no.
You want all the nations to accept the changes in the times and in the Toeah as taught by the Church. Shavuot is ditched for pentacost, Passover ditched for Easter, Christmas, etc. You want us to place our trust in “the son of man” for salvation. The Tanakh contradicts literally each of thiese teachings one by one and says explicitly that the sons do not die for the fathers, nor fathers for sons, but each for his own sin shall die. The Tanakh clearly and unambiguously teaches that G-d the father does not share his glory, and also tells us to “trust not in the son of man in whom there is no hope.” Your Jesus is your own NT scripture’s picture of the false messiah (a man believed by all the nation’s because he rose from a deadly wound, who changed set times and the law, and who set himself in G-d’s temple, and said I am G-d, requiring on pain of death that people accept him. Jesus was just a Jew, not G-d.
What is proved Eric is that while Christianity teaches that Jesus’ ressurection proves his legitimacy, the same book in revelation says that a ressurection miracle proves nothing. You Christians also teach that the messiah must be G-d himself, and must be worshipped, when your own book tells you to be weary of people who make this claim. So, all your “proofs” are inconclusive. Just because a guy raises from death and says he’s G-d doesn’t make it true.
“Co, Just because a guy raises from death and says he’s G-d doesn’t make it true.”
you go by your own theory. He doesn’t rise to life and says’ I am God” He says he goes to his Father which is God. Read the scriptures instead commenting others.
Eric, I’m not going by my theory alone, but by well established ancient Christian traditions about a false messiah who claims he is G-d, coupled with a straightforward reading of chapter 13 of your own book of revelation. You have claimed that only the righteous can be resurrected to life, and this is only by G-d’s power. The NT itself says that this isn’t true. false teachers like your anti Christ can claim the exact same claims, and do lying miracles to prove their point and rise after a deadly wound. Judaism does not accept the premise that G-d takes on human form, nor does Judaism grant that a ressurection proves anybody’s legitimacy as a prophet. Ergo, we will not be fooled by a liar who says he is G-d or allegedly raises to life in order to “prove” himself. You say that anti messiah doesn’t raise to “eternal” life, but that’s an irrelevant distinction, because your own text says that he manages to fool everyone in the world because of a ressurection from a deadly wound. After this, the nations accept him as G-d and worship this false one by taking his mark. If It’s enough of a falsehood to fool all nations, that’s the point at issue. Judaism doesn’t grant the premises at all that miracles like resurrection prove a prophet, due to Halacha. The Sinai revelation is what proved Moses’ prophecy, not his miracles. Just look at the history of human beings worshiping other men as divine. Caesar, Pharoah, Hindu faith, the Greeks (Antiochus Epiphanies literally in Greek called Ἀντίοχος Δ΄ ὁ Ἐπιφανής, Antíochos D’ ho Epiphanḗs, “God Manifest”)
It is a fact of the Jewish bible that G-d is not a human being. Christians violate this central concept of Torah, namely, the distinction between creator and created in their veneration of Jesus.
If the S’tan can be a serpent then why not.
My point Sharbano, is that the Christian’s own religious texts warn Christians about the dangers of holding those kinds of beliefs (such as belief in a person’s deity because he allegedly rose from the dead,) ideas that they hold to be most essential when it’s their Jesus. If it’s their Jesus, they say it’s completely ok and biblical, but if it were anyone else claiming it, it’s a lie. The Tanakh by contrast teaches that ANYONE who claims he is G-d is a liar. No man is G-d, only G-d is G-d. The King of tyre thought he was a divine being, G-d had to take him down a peg.
Con, you are distorting our truth sooooooooooo muuuuch here by
” that the Christian’s own religious texts warn Christians about the dangers of holding those kinds of beliefs (such as belief in a person’s deity because he allegedly rose from the dead,) ideas that they hold to be most essential when it’s their Jesus. ”
Our text claim that fact, but who claims it? Jesus! After risen back to life. Just think logically what you said! It is Jesus who gives the warning! So where is his lie? If jesus lies , that means there is no danger , no possibility of anti-christ. You twisted yourself in your facts -manipulation.
Do you know Eric how many people claim to be Jesus and G-d? Tons of them! And Christians follow them. Marshal Appelwhite, Jim Jones, Jose Luis de Jesus, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
If your Jesus upheld Torah as you claim, you wouldn’t need Jesus to uphold it, you have Moses.
Con, You simply do not understand the purpose of Jesus coming. Moses died himself and needed a savior himself. If Moses is sufficient so why the need for the Messiah?
C.R.
According to your logic, if Moses had upheld the Torah you wouldn’t have needed God to send another.
His lie from a Torah standpoint is in claiming divinity at all.
And what about your lies?
By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides?
Sharbano, ” If the S’tan can be a serpent then why not.” I would rather say; if Satan can speak though others ( like serpent) then why not.
But if serpent can be that smart and know God’s will and understand exactly what death is after never experiencing it which would be an abstraction to anybody who never saw a dead one after being just created, hmm that snake’ wisdom is just overwhelmingly excellent. Just a simple encounter with a simple snake but what a smartness! I wonder if all of them do understand so much but can’t just express it as they can’t talk anymore…
Con, “You are missing my point Eric. It is only You Christians who are the ones saying to everyone on planet earth that there is one person, Jesus, who is G-d, who you say that we must accept his teaching, or perish and be punished eternally just for saying no.”
Or you say ;Christians do this or that
Listen to the scriptures not what others say. Jesus didn’t tell you to replace passover with Easter and buy an Easter bunny, come on! He didn’t tell you bring a St Clause while celebrating Jesus; birthday!
Jesus didn’t come to change the law , times, offerings and didn’t set in the earthly temple and messed up .- ( what you wrote) the but he came to fulfill the law. You are far away from the truth.
If Jesus said to fulfill the Torah, why are you here to take Jews away from Torah?
I’m not messing up your sources, I’m quoting your own sources, with your own theologians to back me up, and showing how Christian words and deeds are contradictory. 2000 years of Christians telling Jews they don’t have it right, yet Jews aren’t the ones who replace biblical holidays with nonsense, or who say a man was G-d. It’s just ironic that your own book tells you to be careful of people who claim divinity.
C.R.,
God said in Deuteronomy 18 to listen to such a prophet.
The only question is whether or not he is the prophet referred to or not. The Christian Scriptures say yes. You say no.
If you don’t believe him to be the prophet then you shouldn’t listen to him. But don’t tell others they are violating the Hebrew Scriptures because they do.
Con, “If Jesus said to fulfill the Torah, why are you here to take Jews away from Torah?”
Show me where on that blog did I tell anybody” leave your Torah away!”???
I am trying to show them that Jesus is truly God’s son and servant.
If he were a servant, why must he be worshipped served, etc. you are adding to the Torah by tacking Jesus onto things.
Con,
“if he were a servant, why must he be worshiped served, etc. you are adding to the Torah by tacking Jesus onto things.”
Jesus came as a servant to did for peoples’ sins. But In the kingdom to come when he is ruling he will be serves as a king is served.
Didn’t you read that all nations will serve the messiah? ( Is 11) Worshiped is your added statement here. I would suggest not adding something that isn’t there. Nobody is asking you to worshing Jesus so speak in your own name.
Con, It should be ; Nobody is asking you to worship Jesus so speak in your own name.
But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” instead of G-d’s redemption from Egypt. How is that NOT changing the Torah, or “law” as Xtians want to put it.
Sharbano ” But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” instead of G-d’s redemption from Egypt. How is that NOT changing the Torah, or “law” as Xtians want to put it. ”
Jesus said he didn’t send himself but God . So all is owed to God – the whole redemption process.
“But J’sus DID change Pesach and made it about “him” Redemption of Egypt didn’t need slathering of a lamb and blood shed . Ask yourself whether God could carry people out without anything.? Sacrificed lamb was for a sign that there was price paid for the freedom .
That’s why jesus is called the lamb of God as he had to die for our freedom from bondage of sin that led us to death.
Con, “Eric, I’m not going by my theory alone, but by well established ancient Christian traditions about a false messiah who claims he is G-d, coupled with a straightforward reading of chapter 13 of your own book of revelation. You have claimed that only the righteous can be resurrected to life, and this is only by G-d’s power. The NT itself says that this isn’t true. false teachers like your anti Christ can claim the exact same claims,?” I already answered you to that yesterday.
You are using Jesus words to prove that, so we have even more reason to trust Jesus. He gave us the warning.
I have no reason to trust the NT, but when even your text shows how dangerous belief in a deified individual is, I find it interesting.
C.R.,
Your logic runs something like this,
The Hebrew Scriptures provide warnings against false prophets and include many descriptive examples of false prophets.
Therefore all prophets are false,
God provided warnings against idolatry.
Therefore He must be an idol.
By the way, was Aaron a false prophet because he made the golden calf?
Don’t abandon your common sense in your quest to inject your own faulty logic into Scripture.
David, good points!
Con, you were from the beginning on either side or no side- as far as I remember starting that Jesus can be Messiah and at the same time he was not and many similar strange statements. But then you argued with ypfriend that that redemptive’ experience’ of followers of jesus is undeniable. Now you claim that Jesus even didn’t exist or was a liar according to you. It is hard to figure you out!
Jesus did exist. He was a 1st century Torah teacher. He, like other people and messiah claimants has been deified by his students. I do not hate Jesus, nor the ethical standards that he taught, but to necessitate that people acknowledge Christian theology and Jesus as the only way to the father/messiah contradicts the plain meaning of the Torah. Even if there was somehow a messianic dimension to Jesus’ life (in that through him the bible reached many nations, Muhammad did the same for many nations too.) Christian theology has tacked on added ideas, foreign influences, and anti Torah ideology. If Jesus was pro Torah, than why can’t you leave Jews alone to obey the Torah.why do you insist on mediation through Jesus? The minute you necessitate Jesus, you have changed the way that Israel understood G-d from their fathers, which is to contradict Torah.
Con,
“Eric, what lies? Yes, your new testament claims Jesus is the word of G-d. (John 1:1) that he rose from death, etc. but your revelation chapter 13 proves that even FALSE TEACHERS AND MESSIAHS CLAIM THIS TOO! THIS PROVES ITS NOT A TRUSTWORTHY CLAIM IN AND OF ITSELF. ”
me; but revelation is a book given from Jesus . Do I have to repeat it many times as you do not see. Is Jesus speaking against himself there???? Revelation gives you more details than just possibilities of false prophets to perform miracles.
In all the examples you listed from Revelation you ignored that message. It is Jesus who is giving the warning. And he is not giving a warning against himself. but that’s how it looks like according to your theology. Also according to your understanding he is representing a group of the same false prophets who are speaking against each other. No different than what the Pharisees accused him for , doing all works through the power of a devil. And what did Jesus answer them? The kingdom that works against itself will fall apart. There was no way he was doing his works with devils’ power
( kicking off other demons).
Back to your comment;
I just skip all verses you wrote as it is long just focus on some ;
” And there was given unto him a mouth speaking GREAT THINGS and BLASPHEMIES; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”
My question; what blasphemies AGAINST God did Jesus say?? According to book of Revelation the blasphemies are pretty wrath and cruel nasty words against God .
“6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.”
Con, please list me all Jesus’ blasphemies against God’s name, tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven”
Where are the examples of Jesus “sitting in the temple of God”
Examples when Jesus says he is ABOVE God?
Give me examples of Jesus OPPRESSING HIS OWN PEOPLE and speaking against the Most High, changing the set times.
“There is no warning about people claiming to be deity? Are you nuts? ITS RIGHT THERE! Just read it!”
Does any of these examples in Daniel and Revelation tell you false prophets will be resurrected after 3 days , bless people , pray for people, heal others and go to the Father in heaven???
They can call themselves deity they end up in deadly judgement not resurrection unlike Jesus.
You listed examples from Revelation I wonder why I skipped some;
“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” The Lamb which is Jesus.
This verse tells you clearly that all who are against Christ will believe the beast’s lies.
By the way- I repeat it again. it is Christ who the message is from.
Con,
“What about G-d’s warning to the Prince of tyre who claims he is a divinity?”
Was Prince of Tyre resurrected to confuse him with Jesus?
Is that description of jesus’ death?
Ezek 28;18
“By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.”
Con,con
“G-d promised a prophet LIKE Moses G-d said nothing about replacing Moses or the Torah of Moses. ”
Replacement of torath is in your misunderstanding. Jesus’ call was’ love God and your neighbor as yourself. This is what all the law is based on. Does he( Jesus) contradict his own words?
“By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides? The fact that you even have to ask this question Eric shows how off the path you are man. The only reason you even know about noachides, or the Ger, (righteous non […]
I guess you confused me with someone else. I do not see what are you referring to by your statement and I do not remember that conversation with me.. And do not try hard. You can’t crush my faith.
Hi Eric,
You wrote these words to Con: “And do not try hard. You can’t crush my faith.”
Why do you think that Con, or anyone else here for that matter, is trying to crush your faith? All we are doing is defending ours.
Talk about crushing, you ought not to ignore the crushing weight of 2000 years of history, during which time the Jews alone among the peoples and cultures of Europe resisted the message of Christianity, though not through lack of Christian effort. The forces of Christianity tried mightily to crush the faith of Jews, sometimes through persuasion, forcing Jews to listen to sermons, but mostly through force.
Even when Christians abandoned their crude and cruel methods of attempting to crush Judaism, they still can’t leave Jews alone. Christians aggressively and actively target the Jews for proselytization. That is why this site exists. It’s ironic that you feel there is an effort to crush your faith, when in reality this blog tries to ward off Christian missionaries by explaining and defending our position. While it’s a blessing that we can speak our minds freely and without fear, I find it strange that the moment in history that we finally get the chance to answer back, Christians get indignant or feel attacked and threatened. Is it because of insecurity? I can’t figure it out.
That’s the first point.
The second point about asserting that your faith can’t be crushed is that you are in effect admitting that no amount of evidence can make you change your mind. This is, in my view, a dangerous perspective to hold because it closes your mind to hearing and evaluating other ideas in any honest and objective way.
To grow, one must always be open to the possibility that he is wrong. One must have a standard of evidence that, when presented to him, will persuade him to change his mind.
I have such a standard. My standard is this: a clear and direct commandment spelled out in the Torah. Naturally, no Christian has been able to meet this standard in proving Christian doctrines.
Do you have a standard of evidence, barring miracles, revelation, and other supernatural events?
C.R,
Name one that was a contemporary of Jesus prior to AD 70 that was “deified.”
And as you know, Jesus himself was not “deified” until centuries later.
By the way while we’re on the subject of deification, your claims against the book of Revelation are without merit in that there is no warning against claimed deities. Rather there is a warnings pertaining to the anti-Christ. It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.
Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20584
You are confused about where Con stands. On the one hand, you have read his comments defending belief in Jesus to the hilt. Now you are reading his arguments against belief in Jesus as the Messiah.
I hope Con will forgive me for presuming to speak on his behalf, but Con came to this blog determined to defend Christianity and to set the record straight lest any Christians be led astray by the misinformation spread by this blog. We on the side of Torah engaged him in a heated and lively debate for quite a while. But then Con confronted Deuteronomy 4, and being the honest man that he is, he saw the stark contradiction to Christianity. He has since left Christianity.
I hope that clears things up for you.
And Con, was it indeed Deuteronomy 4 that did you in? Please correct me if I got that wrong.
No David, my logic runs like this.
The Torah says anyone who changes the Torah from how it was revealed at Sinai to Israel is a false prophet.
The Torah warns against false prophets, telling us the kinds of things they will do, ie make changes in how Torah is observed.
Jesus’ movement made changes to how Torah was observed ergo Jesus was a false prophet.
To add insult to injury, your own NT (in revelation 13) says if someone claims divinity (who is not Jesus,) then they are automatically false.
I write that example because Tanakh says nobody who appears human is G-d. Your text (or Christian religious majority) amends that warning to say nobody accept Jesus is G-d.
So, I have the Tanakh telling me that changes in divine service equals false prophet, and Jesus actually making those changes proving that he is false.
Oh my goodness, then you’d have to include just about all prophets starting with Joshua and anyone and everyone who ether added to or modified the Torah as reveled at Mount Sinai.
Where dd Joshua and the prophets add or modify Torah.
Joshua 6:25,26 for starters
Rahab was a Canaanite and a prostitute.
According to the Law of Moses she should have been killed for not one but two reasons. Furthermore according to the Law of Moses her family of Canaanites (her house of all who were with her) which would have including brothers, sister, parents, aunts, uncles, and who knows who, shouldn’t have been allowed to live among the Israelites “ever since.”
Verse 26 also states that Joshua pronounced a curse before the YHWH against anyone who rebuilt Jericho. The Law of Moses never places such a prohibition on Canaanite cities of conquest. It rather requires the opposite; the destruction of the inhabitants and the living in the cities which are acquired.
You need to re-read all the events, and what was said, regarding entering the land. You apparently have some misconceptions.
Co, what changes do you see.? Torah tells you to for ex; not to steal. Did Jesus tell you go ahead and steal?
C.R.
According to your logic, if Moses had upheld the Torah you wouldn’t have needed God to send another.
According to Judaism’s view of the messiah, the messiah will observe Moses’ Torah impeccably and write his own copy of a traditional Torah scroll (the king’s Torah.) in Judaism who the messiah is or isn’t doesn’t change the fundamentals of Torah observance or the Jewish religion the way Christianity does. King messiah is a human being a descendant of David, a monarch, he is not divine in any sense. He does not need to do flashy miracles. If he rebuilds the temple, accomplishes regathering the tribes to Israel, and heals the breaches in Torah observance (making it followed as it was in former years,) and encouraging peace among all nations, that will fulfill the biblical idea of the messiah.
Christianity introduced tons of changes into that formula which is why Jews can’t and won’t ever believe it.
You missed the point.
According to your logic God wouldn’t have had to send another prophet to follow Moses.
G-d promised a prophet LIKE Moses G-d said nothing about replacing Moses or the Torah of Moses.
C.R.
God put no restrictions on prophets other than that they not lead others to idolatry.
Furthermore, it is your interpretation that Jesus “replaced” Moses or the Torah.
Actually he said just the opposite that all will be fulfilled.
And you’d have to hold Joshua to the same standard who immediately followed Moses or any of the others who either added to or took away depending on the circumstances.
For example, you’d have to assign guilt to King David for changing the job of those who carried the tabernacle and its utensils to be singers etc. Obviously there is no longer a need to comply with the Torah instructions to carry a tent when there is no longer a tent.
Or for that matter Jews today who have changed the Torah in innumerable ways; I doubt that Moses would recognize much of what they do today.
he was seen right after being risen at the tomb.
He was allegedly “seen” by two of his followers, who the text says were frightened and ran away. (the rest of Mark after that point is recognized as a later interpolation.)
Have you ever had dreams or seen deceased loved ones, like out of the corner of your eye? If Yes, does it necessarily mean they are risen? Do you believe that huge crowds of Catholics in Egypt have seen the virgin Mary appear? Signs don’t mean anything, unless the goal of the prophecy for which the sign was given comes to pass. Also, Jesus promised the sign of Jonah to the Pharisees (his opponents), but he only allegedly revealed the sign to his students who already believed in him.
Contrast this with Moses, who did signs in front of his accusers and detractors directly to their face (on a national scale) That said, the miracles didn’t prove Moses, Moses lead Israel to G-d. It was G-d speaking to Moses on the mountain in front of everyone that vindicated and proved him. (Moses said he would deliver Israel from bondage. When he did that, when he accomplished that goal, his prophecy was proven true.)
Notice, when reading the Tanakh that Israel constantly chides Moses (even when he does his miraculous signs from G-d.) The Israelite people question Moses. (To paraphrase) “have you come here to destroy us? How will we work when Pharaoh is mad at us?”
When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters. Only after he is vindicated on Sinai (after he has already completed his task of redeeming Israel from bondage in Egypt) does he offer stern rebuke.
Con, “Have you ever had dreams or seen deceased loved ones, like out of the corner of your eye? If Yes, does it necessarily mean they are risen?”
They ( disciples) ate together, they could touch him( Jesus) , they talked together, not dreamed! It is rather logically impossible that so many people in different places would have the same ” jesus- dream” of seeing him; ( Luke 24;36-40
“While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
Then the other gospels give you another encounter; John 21 ( Jesus making fireplace and eats with his disciples.)
I am not going to list you all the ” dream” encounters , you can find them in the bible.
“When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters.” But he gets frustrated and looses his temper many times. Read the story.
Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20583
This was a response to Con’s assertion that Jesus appearing to those who already believed in him is like someone seeing a loved one after they die.
Con is making a good point here. A lot of people have sighted Elvis Presley over the years, and the percentage of Americans who believe he is still alive (7%) is more than three times the number of Jews living in the United States. In other words, if the Jews are a significant minority, believers in Elvis are even a more significant minority. (I hope they’re Republicans, for God’s sake.)
Also, a lot of people have sighted Mary over the centuries, although more people seem to have seen her in medieval times than modern times. Interesting, no?
The point is: this is why it’s silly to believe someone who claims to have seen a loved one after the loved one’s death.
You wrote: “But he gets frustrated and looses his temper many times. Read the story.”
I think you missed this part that Con wrote: “When Israel question’s Moses, Moses doesn’t get angry at them, he continues in his task, he doesn’t berate his doubters. Only after he is vindicated on Sinai (after he has already completed his task of redeeming Israel from bondage in Egypt) does he offer stern rebuke” (my emphasis).
Moses’s reaction to the Israelites even when they openly rebelled is nothing compared to Jesus’s anger and vindictiveness at those who don’t accept him even though he never performed the tasks that the Hebrew Bible assigns to the Messiah.
Dina, you are trying to defend Con’s view on ‘ seeing the loved ones in our dreams to support the deceiving impression about resurrected jesus. The difference is the gospels do not quote Jesus just seen ‘ in visions’ by his desperate followers , but in encounter with tomb guards, in interaction with others where many at the same time could see him, talk to him , touch him , eat with him. It was not a group hypnosis.
Another point about Pilate. Just because Pilate was portrayed as cruel etc these facts don’t prove his conversation with jesus wrong. There were more things and more people involved than just a conversation with Pilate. Also as far as documentary and history that you do not find every detail you would like to written down by historians. Are you considering the library of Alexandria as the one of the largest and most significant libraries of the ancient world that was burned down involving loss of thousands famous writings , history records etc? This fact also has to be considered. And for some reason the message of Jesus didn’t die out despite destruction, loos of recorded details , persecution.
“Dina, you are trying to defend Con’s view on ‘ seeing the loved ones in our dreams to support the deceiving impression about resurrected jesus. The difference is the gospels do not quote Jesus just seen ‘ in visions’ by his desperate followers etc.”
These stories were recorded by the faithful. Remember, the Pharisees did not encounter the resurrected Jesus, whereas God spoke to Moses in front of the whole people, the believers and the doubters.
If someone were to come along and supersede the Torah, I would expect at least the same standard of evidence.
A word about Pilate. You have a book whose portrayal of the Pharisees and Pilate run counter to the historical record. There is no reason to believe therefore that this portrayal is accurate and much reason to believe that it is not.
Dina, finishing message about hate..
I do not remember who exactly wrote that NT conveys the message of hate against Jews. So I am responding here.
So I have a question. Why so many of Jews that Jesus spoke too didn’t take his message as against themselves? Why didn’t they feel hated?? Why weren’t the first disciples approached with hate before they even knew Jesus, why were crowds coming to jesus for healing and were leaving with joy and hope instead of feeling of being hated? What about thousands described in book of acts who received thee message about Jesus with joy, not hate? They were all Jews! Why did the Jewish crowds welcomed Jesus entering Jerusalem if he was to be known of spreading hate against Jews? Indeed Jesus as a promoter of hate towards Jews. He should have hated himself too as he also was a Jew.
The only group that felt hated was that small group of Pharisee that he confronted with their hypocrisy.
Also your comments about Jesus getting soooo angry and more . Read John chapter 6;32-71 to the end and tell me about his anger and hate. You add your own feelings here.
Dina I don’t think that the Christian Scriptures portray a man (Jesus) with a full fledged anti-Semitic attitude (perhaps John’s Jesus is more fully developed). Instead I see that it portrays a deep and vindictive animosity toward anyone who sees through his petty charade (much like our Eliyahu Lion) – the insecure lashing out with hatred at those who don’t see things his way – and with time this coalesced into full fledged anti-Semitism. It is not so much a dehumanization of Jews it is a dehumanization of those who didn’t fall for Jesus’ claims
I wonder how much relates to who and when that text was canonized. Clearly at that time there weren’t Jews who participated in the canonization. I believe it states that J’sus spoke so very much more, Yet, the vast majority aren’t HIS words but the words of Paul. Either they didn’t place such emphasis on HIS words, OR, maybe those other words didn’t align with a preconceived theology. I’ve always wondered what is Not in those books.
ypfriend, “It is not so much a dehumanization of Jews it is a dehumanization of those who didn’t fall for Jesus’ claims”
And his claims were all about; God’s kingdom being near, call for repentance!
Look at those who do not care about repentance in OT and tell me if God approaches them with open arms and joy.
Since you see so much hate in gospels about Jesus here are some examples;
-Jesus’ “hate” portrayed in the gospels via the Pharisees;
His is approaching repenting sinners with compassion and grace not judgement;
unlike Pharisees quick to execute judgement. While others are ready to condemn a woman caught in sin, he responds; John 8 ;7-9
“And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.(…)But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.”
Matthew 9;36 “Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited (…)”
Mark 1;40 ( healing a leper) “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, “I am willing; be cleansed.”
The list can go and go..
– Is Jesus hating Pharisees or Pharisees hating Jesus?
Matthew 12;14, Mark 3;1-6
Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might DESTROY HIM.”
There are two places in John where the Jews wanted to kill Jesus with stones. Both of these occur after Jesus spoke and made a claim about Himself. The first was in John 8:58-59, and the second was in John 10:30-33. Here is the context of both verses:
John 8:56-59, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they PICKED UP STONES to THROW AT HIM(…)
John 10:27-36, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me(…) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all(…) The Jews TOOK UP STONES again to STONE HIM.Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
John 5;15-16 ( Healing the paralyzed man)
“The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
For this reason the Jews PERSECUTED Jesus, and SOUGHT to KILL HIM, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. ”
John 9;30-34 ( healing the blind one from birth)
“The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 WE KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO SINNERS. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And THEY THREW HIM OUT .” ( the healed one by Jesus)
Jesus resurrecting Lazarus ( John 11;45-53)The Plot to Kill Jesus
” Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. 49 .Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that ONE MAN TO DIE for the people than that the whole nation perish.”(…)
53.” So from that day on they PLOTTED TO TAKE HIS LIFE.”
59″ But the chief priests and the Pharisees had given orders that anyone who found out where Jesus was should report it so that THEY MIGHT ARREST HIM.”
John 12;9-10
“Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 SO THE CHIEF PRIESTS MADE PLANS TO KILL LAZARUS AS WELL , 11 for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and believing in him.”
JOHN 19;14-15
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews. But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! CRUCIFY HIM!”Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.”
Does Jesus respond with anger and hate to those who oppose him?
Jesus doesn’t get angry because he faces Pharisees but when he faces hypocrisy, hardened hearts.
John 7;23-24 ” Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
So is Matthew 12;11-12, 14 “How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.”
The last point; Jesus dies for others, including Jews. How can he hate them?
I realize this isn’t germane to your point but I’m not alone in such suspicions. In reading that chapter 8 of John it sounds suspicious in nature. In these accounts J’sus is treated in the writing as a teacher or Rabbi. The text portrays him as one who is knowledgeable in Torah. Now, if all this is accurate, the approach they take would Not have been as one Rabbi to another. In this circumstance J’sus Should have replied to them that they are not following the prescribed methods in Torah adjudication. But the entire dialog is as if J’sus is answering a person who is NOT a Rabbi. This is just another among many occasions where the dialog just doesn’t fit a Jewish character. It is why I have contended for some time that I don’t believe the text was written by Jews.
I have also suggested this is the reason so many Xtian ministers literally prohibit Xtians from studying Talmud. In fact it used to be a severe violation for anyone to do so. If Xtians actually learned Talmud, or studied under a Rabbi for some time, they too, would have questions why what is written is in fact written. The dialog J’sus has with so many Jewish leaders reflect the same concerns. In none of the occurrences do these leaders actually Sound like Jewish leaders. I daresay if the Tannaim would have had this Xtian text they would have had a field day with it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Talmud were based upon this text it would be a thousand volumes. But the Xtian really isn’t aware of this Jewish character and therefore doesn’t see the issue with the text, whereas I see issues page after page.
Eric,
I suppose in your eyes it is not dehumanizing to call people children of the devil, liars, murderers, killers of all the prophets (a baseless charge), brood of vipers, and hypocrites.
I beg to differ.
Dina, Is it evil to call a group of evil man who oppose any good work Jesus did , healing, opposing those who were healed, and showing definite hypocrisy as Jesus showed them?
Yes, they also weren’t killers but looked for ways to kill Jesus.
I thought after reading the examples you would open your eyes and not look through a defensive lenses and message of hate you are soaked with.
What you are unaware of in all those examples you gave are the factual errors of those accounts in the history of that time. You say the Chief Priests and the Pharisees got together and called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. There is NO way this could have or would have ever happened. Those who are aware of Jewish history of that time knew how far apart these groups were.
It’s understandable considering the first books of the Xtian text were written nearly a Generation After the death of J’sus. The text wants to make you Think it was contemporary, but far from it.
Sharbano, groups that are apart come together easily united by their both advantage and business. None of them wanted jesus alive.
The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death. This is a lie peddled by Christian scripture to implicate the Jews rather than the Romans out of fear of angering the Romans according to many historians.
Dina, “The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death”
Only whose idea was to get rid of him??? Romans didn’t care as they didn’t care about God of Jews,. Read again my email about pharisees hate toward jesus with all listed conversations about plotting to kill Jesus Romans were just the executors .
If I read from the gospels about Jesus – then he must have been a false prophet. When I read about Pharisees doing this and that – then these events must have never happened. This is your approach. If so , as you admitted ‘ none of the events in the gospels ever took place” why to even want to discuss anything? If I know that Pinocchio is just a fairy tale I do not argue with people whether it was possible for a doll boy to turn into a human, or not.
The Romans didn’t care? The ROMANS DIDN’T CARE????
How much do you know of Roman history of that time. I believe Dina brought up about Pilate being recalled because of his atrocities. Even the Romans couldn’t stomach him. I once heard a person, whom I know, and found on the internet, give a lesson ABOUT Pilate. He used to try to “educate me” on Xtianity and when he couldn’t answer the many questions he finally gave up. Anyway, the Pilate lesson he gave turned Pilate into the most sympathetic person imaginable. Consider This, if Your text take this Hitler (y”s) type and makes him into a sympathetic image then How can we believe Any of the text. There’s something fishy here.
Now, compare That with the treatment of the Pharisees in the text Also with the history of that time. The Pharisees had NO authority in these matters. They were at such odds with the Roman government that someone like Pilate wouldn’t have paid them any heed. In fact, they wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans. The entire scenario is suspect. The only knowledge Xtians have of history of that time is Only what is in their texts. So how or why would any of Us believe in those writings.
I will turn the question back to you. We actually Don’t believe it so why are you here trying to convince us of its validity. It’s Not Only the events that are in question but the content also. Since you, and virtually every other Xtian, have no knowledge of Jewish Tradition you are unable to see the same issues as we do. It’s as if ALL those people recorded in the Xtian text were NEVER EVER part of Jewish Tradition. That includes J’sus followers, and the leaders, and even the history. I could put it This way. You don’t know what we know so how can you possibly overcome this disparity.
Sharbano, “The Romans didn’t care? The ROMANS DIDN’T CARE????”
I meant Romans didn’t care much about religious beliefs of yours if you didn’t disturb their business.
“The only knowledge Xtians have of history of that time is Only what is in their texts. So how or why would any of Us believe in those writings.”
No, you are under-informed. NT is not the only history for us. Everyone is able to reach to any available sources of history they want to. Josephus ‘ accounts are a witness to us too, but about it I will write later .
P.S cruelty of Pilate is well known. Well known based on the torturing tools they used and well known from the way they treated and killed Jesus.
Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20946
“Dina, “The Pharisees did not seek Jesus’s death”
Only whose idea was to get rid of him??? Romans didn’t care as they didn’t care about God of Jews,.”
Anyone who claimed to be the messiah, the king of the Jews, posed a direct threat to the emperor of Rome. Messianic claimants were killed by crucifixion, the penalty for a political crime.
“If I read from the gospels about Jesus – then he must have been a false prophet. When I read about Pharisees doing this and that – then these events must have never happened. This is your approach.”
Because you believe Christian scripture is the “gospel truth,” it’s hard for you to get my perspective, so I will try to explain.
First, because Christian scripture is a mixture of truth, lies, and distortion, I cannot say for sure that every single event it records never happened. But I also have no reason to believe that it did. On the other hand, certain events can be shown from the historical record never to have happened.
When I argue that Jesus was a false prophet based on your scripture, it’s not because I believe he said what your scripture claims he said. My point is to show you that even your scripture damns itself by what it has recorded because it contradicts the Torah. In other words, from your scripture’s perspective, if Jesus said he would give the sign of the resurrection to the Pharisees but did not, then he is a false prophet according to the Torah. From your scripture’s perspective, if Jesus said you must believe in him to attain eternal life, then he was a false prophet according to the Torah.
I hope that clarifies my position.
Dina, “do you admit the possibility that one can repent and live with God without Jesus. ‘?
Jesus said:” If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23″He who hates Me hates My Father also.…”
People usually are encouraged to repentance by Jesus, and they would trust Him he is the Son of God. Those who never heard , can’t be required to know him. jesus is the one on whom God placed all the sin and they simply do not know that.
“Do you believe that we oppose God?” According to Jesus words; opposing his words is opposing God’s words if you know he is the Son of God that you do not care about. If you do not know who jesus is it is between you and God. I do not judge.
Dina, “Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT”
Of really does it contrast the teaching??? Wat for their need to bribe the guards who witnessed resurrection? Why not to start keeping record of Jesus with the events like they were?
No, because his resurrection would convince too many he truly was the one he claimed to be; so let;s change the story to the a ‘stolen body’. Matthew 28
I am not surprised they had no business in keeping any memories of life of jesus.
Contrary to that ‘ fairy tale’ that didn’t happen according to you; Josephus had something different to say in that matter.
To answer together your other email about sabbath sign. You understand me wrong. I do not question whether it is God’s sign between Him and His people but question whether the Sabbath keeper( a person) has to be called a righteous one just because he keeps the Sabbath.
That’s why I showed you examples from Isaiah chapter 1 that it is not so. God doesn’t say that those whom he speaks about are not being His people but will address the things that are not right even among those who keep the sabbath. And many fell short by their actions and not because they DID NOT keep the Sabbath. You seem to mix righteousness with a sign and being God’s people. My kids will always be my kids and our ‘sign’ is we all live in the same house and our DNA that confirms we belong to each other. But that doesn’t mean they will always act right and believe every word I say. So it is with God and his people who have a ‘sign’.
“I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..
It’s like all people having their origin; the same great- geat…..grandparents; Adam and Eve.
I read that chapter 28 of Matthew and I don’t see Any mention of Pharisees. Where do you find it. I looked at the KJV online.
Sharbano, I was referring Matthew 28 to the twisted truth about resurrection of Jesus by the leaders.
v 11.15 “While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. “
eric This story makes so much sense – when guards need to get out of trouble all they need to do is tell their superiors that they fell asleep on the watch
ypfriend, “when guards need to get out of trouble all they need to do is tell their superiors that they fell asleep on the watch”
You are deciding for others , everyone would act as you expected, yes? Besides the guards ‘ problem was not feeling like being in a trouble. They witnessed the supernatural and were shocked. There is no place in such situation to fool others ‘they fell asleep’. They gave an account of what they witnessed. Read the gospel.
Eric I am just saying that the story sounds ridiculous – you could still insist on believing it – I have no reason to trust the authors of the Christian Scriptures to begin with so this story doesn’t change my perspective – All I am doing is highlighting the weak-spot in this particular story
Sharbano, this will be long as it relates to those history issues.
“I once heard a person, whom I know, and found on the internet, give a lesson ABOUT Pilate. The Pilate lesson he gave turned Pilate into the most sympathetic person imaginable. ”
So your conclussions about Pilate are just made based on somebody’s story??? That is reall surprise. You simply build on what others say. I do not see him a sypmathetic person at all and if somebody would say so I would check it up .
I looked into Jewish history by Josephus ( 4 volumes I have at home) and especially chose to read the chapter relating to that period of time of Herods and Pilate/ 1 century Jesus times). And then I compared it with what you said
” In fact, they( Jews) wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans. The entire scenario is suspect.”
Then I came accross a story in which Josehus describes the situation of Pilate bringing some images into Jerusalem , setting them without a knowledge of people by night (to avoid protesting) knowing Jews won’t approve of the images as their law forbids of making any. Then we read; ” as soon as the people found out came to Cesarea and INTERCEDED WITH PILATE many days that he would remove the images! ( are we not reading about possible confrontation???)
Then we read Pilate would not want to grant their request but people WERE PERSERVERED IN THEIR REQUEST. ( Does it look like nobody would dare to approach Pilate?) Then we read he sat on his judgement seat gathered the army yet STILL PEOPLE INSISTED’ . The text says’ THE JEWS PETITIONED HIM AGAIN!
Does it look like what you said??? “Jews wouldn’t even want to confront the Romans.” But to me it looks they would even PERSIST ON something if it was important to die for . Then we read” Pilate threatened them saying that their punishment would be immediate death if they do not leave and stop disturbing him! ” But they threw themselves into the ground ready to die saying they would rather take death willingly rather then having the wisdom of their law to be transgressed UPON WHICH PILATE WAS DEAPLY AFFECTED WITH THEIR FIRM RESOLUTION TO KEEP THEIR LAWS INVIOLABLE and gave in to their request ( by comanding the images being carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.” Josephus/ antiquities of jews , vol 4, / chapter 3.
You do not measure history by impressions. Pilate was cruel and many times he just went to kill if somebody disturbed his businnes but there were times of negotiations with him as well. And if that one encounter is described then it is obvious that Jews weren’t banned of confronting him and that wasn’t an event one in life. I would write too much, there are many similar stories , I just suggest reading the book.
Pilate gives up to the demands of Jews in this story, Pilate agrees with the leaders’ demand to crucify Jesus for exchange for Barabas ( Luke 23;23-24); Nothing suspicious and unrealistic to me.
So are there other events ( in Josephus history) mentioned confirming autentity of existence not only Jesus, but John the Baptist and James
( brother of jesus). I heard the stories that Josephus description of jesus in his writings sounds too Christian as it mentions his resurrection and Jesus being righteous wise man, so it is suggested that it was added by later Christians, yes, of course…. I skip commenting that but other fact are undeniable. He describes Herods kindgom falling apart and conclusions and beliefs of people claiming ‘ it must have been God’s judgement for Herod being guilty of beheading John the baptist who was considered as a righteous man and prophet. / Volume 4 , pg 253-6. Josephus makes also mention of his baptism and being a true prophet which agrees with the account of the gospels. And when there was baptism there was a purposes and reason of john the baptist to be at all as a fore- runner before Christ .
Pilate is also portrayed by Josephus as less quick to judgement if something didn’t bother him personally. But things that disturbed his bussines would result in quick judgement. Since Jesus was not his business I do not see a reason to say his conversation ( in gospels) was impossible to take place. Beside you judge based on a few accounts of his conversation recorded in NT. The interrogation lasted few days not ‘few lines’ of Pilate short sattement. We do not see th e whole picture of cruelty behind the curtains but we read Pilates’ soldiers ‘entertained themselves’ with their brutality toward Jesus.
Another event described by Josephus is James brother of jesus called Christ. He was stoned for his beliefs. If there was a brother of Jesus that means there was also Jesus known.
Another familiar even based on the gospels and read in the history; ” fighting and disagreements ‘ among different Jewish groups that were resulting in Romans intervention. In John 11 45-53; we read the following’
Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation. Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
So what were the Jewish leaders afraid of? Of the disturbance among Jewish groups; those who believed jesus and those who didn’t would non stop keep confronting each other and attract Romans intervention. No different then with other confrontation ( read in Jewish wars volume 1 in which Romans intervened.
I have you an Example of ONE such instance. It is a common teaching among Xtians that Pilate was a sympathetic person. That’s why This person taught the same.
Did you read all what happened in that event and what Pilate DID. That was the first encounter with Pilate. That’s why on further encounters they didn’t confront him.
Virtually every scholar agrees that the part of Jsus was added by the church. If one reads all of Josephus you find he is a methodical writer. The section with Jsus simply doesn’t fit his writing style. There is a major discrepancy between what Josephus wrote and the Xtian text when it comes to John the baptist.
The chief priests AND the Pharisees would NOT have convened a meeting in the “Sanhedrin”. Those priests were nothing but stooges of the Romans. And you expect US to believe that account.
Sharbano, you complete overlook the message that was in email. I guess you had no answers but confirm; yes, that could have happened. And you also misunderstood my message. i quoted from Josephus completely unrelenting encounter of Jews via Pilate . That story doesn’t show him sympathetic at all for the sake of Christians to prove their point. It shows his as cruel but but also allowing debating if the trouble was too big. Maybe that wasn’t happening too many times but history shows it did.
You claimed this instance of when he arrived as a proof for the Xtian rendition of Pilate. As it says there in Josephus they didn’t go to him after that.
In any event you are denying the vast majority of how Xtians teach about Pilate.
Sharbano, the event described in Josephus has no encounter of Christians and is not relating to them. You failed to see the message like it was. Without any christian help and interpretation; the text said; Pilate agreed with jews’ demand and took the images back.
Sharbano, “The church expanded throughout the entire world by the sword. It’s how America was founded.
The church didn’t go into all these countries to sit down and teach the pagans but stole their gold and murdered the lot of them.”
How was Jerusalem established? How was the land conquered ( the Promised Land??) It doesn’t mean I approve of these methods but I am just showing how it was. I am also not saying God approved of the actions of those who murdered Indians, at least today we are able to print tons of Bibles without shedding the blood.
You STILL want to make Excuses for what the church did by saying, See look at what the Jews did. It reminds of a child, who has done wrong, who says the other child did so and so.
Sharbano, I didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before I even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So I am not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.
But what about your answer? Wasn’t Jerusalem and promised land conquered with sword? Even In childish conversation the kid would also expect the answer.
“Sharbano, I didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before I even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So I am not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.”
If that is the case, then why do the Christians on this blog constantly bring up the past sins of the Jewish people, from which they themselves didn’t even suffer? They start with the baseless charge of “prophet killing,” remind us that the Hebrew prophets called us “stiff necked,” and remind us that even after God’s revelation we still sinned with the golden calf–such proof of our wickedness that of course we are blind to the truth of Jesus’s revelation.
Why are the sins of my ancestors excruciatingly relevant to you but the sins of yours should not be relevant to anyone at all?
By the way, your analogy of Christians conquering by the sword to the Israelites’ conquest of Canaan fails on two major counts.
One, God commanded His people to wipe out the inhabitants of Canaan, a commandment so difficult to carry out that in fact the Jewish people failed to fully complete the task.
God did not command the Christians to impose Christianity by force upon the peoples and nations of Europe (and other continents).
That is no small difference. Do you think the Jews should have chosen to disobey God?
Two, once the Jews sort of finished the conquest of Canaan, they stayed within the God-imposed boundaries and did not subjugate or oppress other peoples. They did not impose Judaism by force on the nations that surrounded them. After the conquest, whatever wars they engaged in were defensive wars against invaders and similar circumstances.
Christians imposed their religion by force on all of Europe, and then went out crusading, killing anyone who got in their way and also lots of those who didn’t. In fact, they went out of their way to kill Jews. God did not command this.
Christians must, for the sake of truth, confront the moral legacy of their religion. Thus far, Eric, you have resisted undertaking a study of the subject, perhaps because you “didn’t come here to speak for others and feel guilty what others did before [you] even lived. People’s evil has nothing to do with jesus’ call. So [you are] not digging in a subject that leads to nothing.”
Not digging in a subject that leads to nothing? It leads to truth, Eric.
If you want to claim credit for the good that Christianity has done, then you must also take the blame for its mistakes.
Dina, to David,
“But here’s the biggest difference. . The harsh rebukes of the prophets are lovingly studied, and we are inspired by those words to repent.”
You are speaking here about the prophets who repented ;”The prophets included themselves in the rebuke.”
But then you have also those people who didn’t repent and those won’t be ‘lovingly studied’ by others but are rebuked even by God. Planty examples in OT.
“The Hebrew Bible is a book of internal self-criticism”
That means God didn’t say anything about anybody whoses conduct He didn’t approve? He just let you all firure things out on your own? No! The same way jesus said words against those who treated themselves as self- righteous but with hypocritical character and no need for repentance ( so that they could rebuke themselves later and be inspiration). Paul is an example who addmited his guilt and despite his curel and hating previous attitude towards Christians ( before his convertion) he is not called by jesus a hypocrite. jesus didn’t have to say anything toward those who could admit their mistakes. The attitude of self-righteousness opposing God’s ways of righteousness was what needed the be addressed with a judgement.
Eric, either you did not understand my response to David or you cannot understand it because of its implications for you.
There seems to be little point in repeating myself, but who knows? Maybe this time I will shed some light.
The target audience of the Hebrew Bible is the Hebrews.
The target audience of the Christian Bible is Christians.
The Hebrew Bible examines the flaws of the Hebrews, rebukes them for it, and holds them to an extremely high standard of behavior.
The Christian Bible examines the flaws of the…Hebrews, condemns them for it, and holds them to a double standard of behavior.
Do you see the difference? Our Bible criticizes us and your bible criticizes…us.
Christian scripture did not remain in Jewish hands, you see. It fell into the hands of Gentiles, who are treated much more gently than the Jews in the Christian scriptures. Do you see the problem yet?
The Gentiles were already predisposed to hate the Jews. They now had a sacred text that gave them good reasons for doing so, while treating them so much more gently so as to lead them to believe that they were much more righteous than the Jews. I understate the case.
I’m sure a lot of Christians don’t interpret their scriptures that way anymore, but you need to realize that devout Christians for nearly 2000 years did interpret their scriptures this way. The result was catastrophic for the Jewish people.
We could say the same thing about Jsus and the Pharisees. They were asking HIM why he didn’t follow the Tradition. Who is being self-righteous HERE. Who has the hypocritical character. What you say about those people can be said by those people about Jsus.
Sharbano, what tradition he didn’t follow and what was his response? examples please..
Dina, “Christians imposed their religion by force on all of Europe, and then went out crusading, killing anyone who got in their way and also lots of those who didn’t. In fact, they went out of their way to kill Jews. God did not command this.”
Were they Christians, according to what Jesus tough or according to their own righteousness?
Does ‘ conquering by sword ‘ and killing in the name of God sound like Jesus teaching???
Luke 9;51-57
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.
So who were the crusaders? Those who under the name of a righteous one tried to justify their evil actions contradicting what is taught in NT. But you call them Christians, because they were doing it in the name of jesus.
NT has the answer for you to that too;Matthew 7;21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and DO many mighty WORKS IN YOUR NAME ?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU ; DEPART FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS..’
Eric, you were the one who compared the forcible imposition of Christianity to the conquest of Canaan; I was merely showing you what was wrong with your argument. I suggest you read my comment again because you did not really address it.
By their fruits you shall know them. If you want to claim credit for the good ones, you’ve got to accept the blame for the bad. After all, that is the standard you hold us to. With all your pointing out our past sins, would you accept the argument that those weren’t real Jews?
You mean to tell us when ministers teach about the evils the Jews perpetrated it has no effect. I guess all the Imam’s teachings have no effect either.
You, Yourself have questioned whether or not there were ever righteous Jews throughout all this time. WHERE did you learn THAT. Your own words have condemned you and made you guilty and not a “real Xtian” according to Jsus.
Eric, Paul, David and all other Christians who are fond of quoting the Jewish Bible to prove how bad the Jews are The Jewish Bible addresses the Jewish people – not the gentiles (Psalm 147:19,20). The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness. The gentiles were given a prophet and he taught them how to look at the Jews. If you want to know how God wants gentiles to see the Jews you need to read Numbers 22,23 and 24 – that is where God shows us how He wants a gentile to view the Jewish people.
ypfriend, real nonsense! “The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness.” \
Yes, so how do you imagine all the rest of the world to know God??? How would the sinner know God can forgive him , how can He knows how God acts and is like if he never read anything about Him???? How would anyone know what happens to him after death,, what is God’s plan and purpose for the mankind? Real nonsense what you stated!!! Everybody has the same right to learn and read about God as you and learn from your mistakes if it talks about mistakes.
I wish God put a not before starting Genesis; never intended to be read be gentiles. You expect all the world coming for consultations to you regarding God and you are the only one authorized to know who God is etc. mercy… your message is REALLY pitiful!
Well, what does scripture say; Jeremiah
It shall be if they learn well the ways of My people, to swear in MY Name, as Hashem lives, just as they taught My people to swear by the Baal, then they shall be restored along with My people. But if they do not listen, I shall uproot that nation, uprooting and destroying it – the word of Hashem.
Point is, learn from Israel, not from your own readings.
Sharbano,
“What you keep ignoring is the fact that a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments.
but they will lose their Jewish identity within a few generations.”
Don’t you think God doesn’t forget who is descendant of Abraham? He doesn’t need an outside mark so He wouldn’t confuse you with gentiles. So they loose their identity before people but not before God.
“a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments” How many disobeyed commandments qualify him for being called not – righteous?
You have supported Is 53 that the righteous servant in that chapter can’t be the nation because the nation is shown paying for their mistakes.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile”, so those assimilated lose any Jewish heritage”
By “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor slave etc” Paul means that because of repentance in jesus gentile becomes a child of God and it doesn’t matter who you are. He simply says there is no difference between one child in God and the other whether one was a slave, the was free man, the other was a Jew, the other was a gentile who came to God through Christ.
“learn from Israel not from your own writings” Israel paid for their mistakes and ‘ what is called my own writings ‘ are Jewish writings about God’s grace.
Eric, what is the point of a covenant nation if they can’t be identified as such? How can a Jew follow God’s commandments to Jews if he doesn’t even know he is Jewish?
By the way, when Jews assimilate, they eventually lose their Jewishness, because Jewishness is passed only through the mother.
You wrote: ““a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments” How many disobeyed commandments qualify him for being called not – righteous?”
A Jew cannot be righteous if he willfully disobeys God’s commandments, but repentance wipes the slate clean. You wrote, “the righteous servant in that chapter can’t be the nation because the nation is shown paying for their mistakes.” You think so because you think righteousness means sinlessness; we don’t accept that definition of righteous. For there is no man who is righteous who does not sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Furthermore, this doesn’t support your interpretation of Isaiah 53, because we always see suffering as a call to repentance. Finally, the suffering of Israel in that chapter is as a result of the sin of oppression committed by the other nations. (I gave you Biblical citations for this in the last comment I wrote on Isaiah 53 which you said you will read when you have time. I am looking forward.)
By the way, punishing us for our sins is God’s business. It’s not your job to condemn us for them. Rabbi B. pointed out, if you want to know how God wants Gentiles to view the nation of Israel, then read about the incident with Balaam in Numbers.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor slave etc… it doesn’t matter who you are…there is no difference between one child in God and the other…”
Then what is the point of the special covenant between God and Israel, if there is no difference? What does the idea of a chosen nation mean, in that context?
You seem unable to understand the point being made. How can one be a descendant of Avraham if he is No Longer a descendent. This is the point.
I believe it may be in Galatians where Paul speaks of Jews being removed from the root and Gentiles taking their place.
Everyone is a child of G-d and Jsus has no determining factor in that. Everyone has that spark of G-d within them, and you may be amazed but this also includes the S’tan.
Because you think in Xtian chapters you fail to read the contextual narrative. If one is to understand “Your” chapter 53 it is necessary to start at the Start of 52. The entire narrative is about Israel being redeemed from out of the nations and their reaction to that redemption. Simple as that.
If G-d can be SO clear in his purpose as to name the man Cyrus, explicitly, and call him G-d’s Messiah, don’t you think he would have give a better indication of a man-savior than the most vaguest of attempts. You, and all the Xtians, can claim all you want about how Jsus is seen throughout Tanach but in none of these cases is there any type of direct reference to even a messiah, let alone Jsus.
Sharbano, children of Abraham are children of faith.
By the way you seem to include satan in a child of God? Then you do not really understand what it means to be God’s child.
“Everyone has that spark of G-d within them, and you may be amazed but this also includes the S’tan.” Yes, I am really amazed by your poor understanding of that.
What YOU fail to understand is that G-d is part of Everything.
Sharbano, but we have a free will and in that free will our desire for evil actions , and no faith in God do not make us His children. His child is the one who obeys him .
All are children of G-d, and Israel is His firstborn son.
Sharbano, God divides them by their spiritual belonging; either by following God or the evil.
That’s why God doesn’t call his enemy his children.
Eric,
“no faith in God do not make us His children. His child is the one who obeys him.” You have a very twisted and harsh view of parenthood. In your view, parenthood is conditional. Well, I have news for you: it isn’t.
No matter how bad your children are, they are still your children. If they turn out to be utterly wicked and estranged from you, you will yearn for them to change and come back.
God is the ultimate Father. No matter how wicked a human is, he is still God’s child, created in His image. And God yearns for him to change his ways and return to His Father.
Sharbano, Did you ever hear God;s enemy being called his children? Only children of the devil which means adversary the same way like satan.
Sharbano, at Jeremiah times people didn’t have books available like nowadays and bible to buy in every store for everybody who wishes.
So what, Eric? They also didn’t have Christian scripture. What’s your point?
You think Jeremiah was stupid?
Dina, Jeremiah was talking about his times we are now 2000 + ahead with stores filled with literature about every religious subject so the message is not just spread by tales from person to person but available to everybody who only wishes to know anything about the bible; via internet, books etc, at any point.
So, do you Really think you can gain the full understanding by going to a bible store and reading some book off the shelf. It’s NO different Now then it was then. Do you know everything about the United States by reading the Constitution.
Eric, you are a very careless reader. Rabbi B. did not say that God never intended Gentiles to read the Bible. You took what he said out of context by ignoring the rest of his sentence, and I quote:
“The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness” my emphasis.
If you see the difference now, then you owe Rabbi B. an apology. If you don’t see the difference, then God help you.
By the way, yes, the Gentiles are supposed to learn how to understand our Torah from us. God gave it to us, not to you. It’s breathtakingly arrogant for Christians to tell Jews how to understand their own letters from God.
Dina,
I combined answers to multiple of your statements .
“With all your pointing out our past sins, would you accept the argument that those weren’t real Jews?”
When I say real Christians it means followers of Jesus’ teaching which doesn’t call you to hate but even pray for your enemies.
If you do the opposite and hate and kill , you do not follow Jesus, so how can that person be called Christian? He/she can have a paper that tells them ‘ you are christian, baptized in such and such church , but according to Jesus he /she is not his. ( Matthew 7;21-23)
Were the ‘bad’ Jews real Jews? According to you Jews are all those descendants of Abraham. Yes? So do they loose their ‘inheritance’ and Abraham being their great- great …grandfather because they sinned? No.
“If you accept the Torah as true, Christianity doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in its light.”
I see the opposite . It is based on torah that the price paid for sin is loss of life, ( repeated in temple ‘ ceremonies) which makes blood atoning for sins.
It is based on Torah that God will send his righteous servant to save the world, by justifying them, that means declaring them not guilty, as he willingly paid for their sins. The nation can’t do that as they themselves need repentance shown in OT.
Jesus doesn’t tell you to abandon anything. Even in Josephus ( vol 4) and James ( NT ) we read that the first century Jews were law keepers and zealous for ceremonial law that you could not tell the difference who was Jewish Nazarene( the title for the first Christians at that time ) observant and who was not. If they had no problem with understanding jesus teaching and didn’t feel forced to abandon their tradition, so can everyone and not give in in a false argument that NT contradicts Torah.
……
“It was this experience that got me reading a lot about(…) and Christian anti-Semitism”
Don’t you think it had an impact on you how you view NT? For Jews it is hard for NT to be seen as message of God’s love that He ‘saves’ the world through His servant Jesus, but it is message of hate because of those who misused Jesus words and under his name were killing throughout the centuries. Right?
….
What I meant by ‘Peace with God’ is ‘ our conviction of being reconciliated with Him” so I do not consider it ‘dangerous’ . It is God who gives peace in our hearts and not condemnation. Growing is a life process and we are never done when it comes to growing with God. So of course there are always “higher levels of truth to attain,and you can always strengthen your connection with God.” You still learn to get to know His character etc. so I agree with you.
…..
“You shall believe in the Messiah and accept him as your lord and savior in order to live forever” would be a clear and direct teaching. Okay?”
It says that you should accept what God says , turn from evil and repent and that what makes you to live forever. Since God said He will send a servant to justify us and Jesus dies for us and rose again to justify us – it is our obligation to trust God about this words.
Jesus is like with Noah story;
lets say all ( or most) people at Noah time knew Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33 or at least they knew God can forgive them.
When they saw Noah building an ark I am sure they were ridiculing that idea . Many might have been aware of the truth
( the way according to what was told later in Ezekiel 18 ) it is enough for me to turn from my evil ways and I should be fine with God, so what you doing Noah is ridiculous and doesn’t agree with God. No one before us ever needed the boat to be saved. We didn’t hear God telling US clearly from heaven we should support your idea, He didn’t tell us to board your ark so forget.
If we know that God’s statements and truth is the same for all generations , it is obvious it should be also be applicable for people at Noah’ s times. It should be just fine to conclude; we should just trust God . But God informs Noah of a ‘salvation’ way before His coming judgement will be executed and that ‘salvation’ is an ark. And the boat was really the way to be ‘saved’ from God’s judgement. So it is with Jesus as he paid for all the sins. our acceptance of it is like boarding an ark to be saved from God’s judgement.( which is explained in John 3;16-17. Jesus is not send to judge the world but for the world to be saved. And if I reject that what God provided, I reject my way of salvation.
……
“Messianic claimants were killed by crucifixion, the penalty for a political crime.”
It was not Roman’s idea to kill Jesus. They were just executors. Roman’s didn’t believe he was the messiah as they didn’t have interest in him so they had nothing to be afraid regarding their political future. They even ridiculed Jesus by putting a sign’ this is your Jewish king .
………………
“On the other hand, certain events can be shown from the historical record never to have happened.”
Like they say’ lack of evidence is not contradiction of an event. And the more they search now the more they discover of the NT details being truth.
…….
” if Jesus said he would give the sign of the resurrection to the Pharisees but did not,”
tell me where does it says jesus told them the sign means coming to them personally and showing up before their faces? When he said resurrection is the sign that means the fact of him being resurrected is the sign not the event of showing up before their faces. And according to Matthew and other gospels that evidence was not hidden from the leaders. They are described as being given an account of that supernatural event but let the truth not be accepted and twisted ( as a stolen body) so it can be forgotten so no one else would believe. And here is the answer to your statement why Pharisees had no business to carry on the news about jesus
“According to your logic, since the Pharisees hated Jesus so much of course they didn’t write anything about him”
I do not understand you way of thinking;
“since the Christians hated the Jews so much then they wouldn’t have written anything about them.” You have both believing and non- believing historians who wrote about Jews. Jews are not 1 person that you can find the reason not to write about.
Jesus was a ‘danger’ to Jewish leaders to be proclaimed as the Messiah so they did not have business in keeping’ the news about him “alive”. Did something change nowadays??? Do Jews have business to teach about jesus their kids? No, because what the reason? It is better not to bother yourself with somebody who seems irrelevant.
…..
Eric According to you there are no real Christians – Jesus taught not to get angry, not to lie, not to lust to turn the other cheek – will you tell me that anyone you know follows these without fail?
yp friend, of course not all follow that! This is a problem as the teaching itself should lead you to holy life but people do not listen. That’s why you do not blame jesus for Christan’s mistakes but look to yourself if you can follow what he said knowing this is what God requires from us; holy life ( at least as much as we can) which means life in which we love God and do not harm each other but serve each other. But it all focuses on the teaching to be blamed; “teaching is wrong because people do not follow”. That;’ how we get the criticism. How many didn’t follow what God said in OT? The same story.
Eric If the patient cannot take the medicine – then it is useless. There are two medicines offered here – that of the Pharisees and that of Jesus. You have a 2000 year case study of the effects of both of these medicines – compare.
ypfriend, yes, we have a medicine. us healed by his wounds. Most world benefits from it. not from Pharisees’ hate toward the one sent by God.
Eric If you want to know how a medicine works you look at its effect on those who drank it – you don’t judge it by the words of the advertisers and you certainly don’t judge a medicine by the words of those who are competing with it. Why don’t you analyze the case study? No medicine that I know of has such a comprehensive case study available for all to analyze.
Eric, I urge you to take up Rabbi B.’s challenge: “Why don’t you analyze the case study?”
You remain in willful ignorance by refusing to study the history, accepting only your NT as your historical source and only a few thin books extolling those Christians who protected Jews. Don’t you think that’s biased and one-sided?
If you were really interested in the truth you would do an objective study, examining the evidence from both sides and from neutral sources (plenty of historians are not interested in condemning either religion).
There are a lot of books on the subject. You don’t have to read them all at once. But surely you can start reading, a bit here and a bit there–if you are really committed to the truth.
And then you might want to consider the following question:
How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?
Dina, “How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?'”
You are talking about me being one-sided. Look at you. Who are the followers of jesus who failed being inspired by him to set high standard? All those misused his words and never did what he said. We do not even call them his followers neither Jesus himself did. But this is how you see us the only Christians ..
How can you judge that Jesus followers who truly follow his words are less moral than Pharisees? Do you know every Christian to speak for them? Look at the new open museum of the righteous ones open in Jerusalem and tell me who inspired them to give their lives for others to save many. to the point they did?
By the way jesus said the parable about those who think too much about themselves;
Luke 18;9-14
“To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Eric Are you aware that the Pharisees taught that one cannot rely on their own righteousness? Please check out my article entitled “Not By Your Righteousness” – you can find it by using the search window on the blog
This is another case that sounds suspicious of being authored by non-Jews. There are parts of the Morning Prayer that speaks of “not being as…”. Xtians and non-Jews have used this to attack Jewish liturgy when they have Absolutely No understanding of the intent and purpose. And Once Again the evil one is the “Pharisee”. Are you beginning to notice a trend. I must say, the More you bring up the More suspicious Xtianity sounds.
Dina, “How is it that the Pharisees inspired their followers to lead far higher moral lives than Jesus inspired his followers?”
God set the highest standard, even higher the Pharisees can reach. So how is that followers of God in OT also failed so much, after witnessing so much?? Would you blame God for that? So why you seem to blame Jesus ‘unable’ to set a high standard?
Eric We are not comparing to God’s standard – we are contrasting disciples of the Pharisees against the disciples of Jesus – one community reveres a book that highlights their own faults while the other community reveres a book that highlights and exaggerates the faults of their theological opponents – I don’t see the comparison
ypfriend, “one community reveres a book that highlights their own faults while the other community reveres a book that highlights and exaggerates the faults of their theological opponents – I don’t see the comparison”
NT wasn’t written in the middle ages to highlight mistakes of the Crusaders. It wasn’t written in the e20 century to highlight mistakes of Hitler’s followers. But it conveys universal message o all in all times; love God and follow God. If you want to read about highlighted faults of the people from NT times read epistles, Paul wrote it all and he is not dealing with pharisees as they are not a target for it’s own sake.
Eric The message of the NT is love Jesus and follow Jesus and dehumanize all of your theological opponents (they are blind, the are children of the devil) – of – there is another important lesson that the NT teaches – and that is that the Jews believe in a legalistic, materialistic self-righteous religion and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise
ypfriend, “Eric You have to judge the whole package – including the instructions If only one in a thousand knows how to drink the medicine “properly” – then the instructions were written poorly” –
How many knew how to drink from God’s knowledge properly in the OT times???? You again are blaming God . Why so many followed idols etc? God wasn’t clear enough? Neither was Jesus.
By the way bad info sells quicker. You seem to see all Christians as evil-doers towards jews. Just ‘one’ gets it right and helps the Jew . Is that what you wanted to say?
Eric You don’t have to guess what I wanted to say – I said it very clearly. You have two medicines – the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Christians Scriptures and the teachings of the Pharisees as recorded in their written works. You also have two communities – one took the medicine of the Christian Scriptures and one took the medicine of the Pharisees. – just look at the history of the two communities – each of them had saints and villains – but still the two communities don’t compare. The excuse that the community who took Jesus’ medicine did not read the instructions right – is irrelevant – if true – it just proves that Jesus didn’t know how to give instructions and the Pharisees did
ypfriend, y “The excuse that the community who took Jesus’ medicine did not read the instructions right – is irrelevant – if true – it just proves that Jesus didn’t know how to give instructions ”
You are saying nonsense again. This doesn’t make even a little sense.
The thing is ‘the hate’ is not the medicine that jesus gives but call to repentance and a message of God’s forgiveness. So all your ‘medicine story’ doesn’t make sense. You mix ‘the hate’ with what the message is really about.
You simply view Christians through the eyes of ‘ hate’ towards you Jews. You didn’t answer my question; do you view all Christians as evil doers towards Jews? You said I should know your answer. Don’t you have a courage to admit what you think? You and Con said , one gets it right way, there is not too many Christnians who got it right. You might have admit there were a few righteous ones during the war and the list is closed. But I tell you, you closed yourself in that world of prejudice towards us and NT scriptures.
I suggest you to read the other side of the history as well. Bad stories sell quicker and are better remembered but any good work fades with a time as if it never happened. Beside every single person ( that is called as a one that got it right- according to you) are thousands of people who participated in rescuing Jews which are the invisible ones to you as you didn’t hear of them. Just read Irena Sendlers story that finally came to light in 2000. She was too humble to receive any fame.Her work is not just a single righteous Christian episode that happened. Beside every single kid she rescued of a number 2500 were the same amount of Christians that took care of the rescued ones. In her work that is called only by her single name as if she worked alone are also another hundreds of people of the underground net helping to transport rescued Jews to the safe places. Behind her one name there is a group of – British Christians who organize collection of many to cover all the work done in PL to rescue Jews and drop in from the planes in an appointed place. Behind her single name work there are another hundreds who work as security to switch people and names in case somebody is caught and tortured to give away the others. And this is just irena Sendler’s story that is remembered as just one name, as if the others were asleep. Then you have a similar story with Corie ten Boom . Just a one lady in Netherlands . Did only she ‘get it right’ ? No, behind her family work hiding people at their home there is another thousand of people responsible for hiding 800 Jews in their remote places, a person per family so secure safety. Another number of people are those who take care of the papers to make the traveling/ transportation possible for the Jews not to be caught . And others to sponsor it all. The list goes on.
There are 6,532 of these single rescue workers just in Poland and nobody knows all the names of the net of co-workers that each person operated with.
If only 1 person was behind the number of 450,000 Jews rescued in that country we would have 450.000 workers but the number estimated of the ones involved in rescue is at up to 3 million. 3 million of the ‘invisible’ Christians as they had to work unnoticed as if they didn’t exist. Hardly ever Nazi would kill a Christian leader because that would not stop the work of helping Jews. They wanted to ‘break’ the leader under torturing to give out all the names of the the whole net of others that would carry on the work . They knew that behind the leader is not just one name left.
Denmark and invisible Christan work. I hope you watched a movie. The Danish resistance movement, with the assistance of many simple Danish citizens, managing to evacuate 7,220 of Denmark’s 7,800 Jews, plus 686 non-Jewish spouses, by sea to nearby neutral Sweden. How many people behind that work? Per one person or family you had to have almost equal number of people helping, funds raising was enormous to cover all operation and securing help in Sweden; transporting, feeding, sheltering, papers making, the list is endless. On the other side of the sea- Sweden- another group of Christians helping those Jews to survive. I suggest you watch a movie.
England; Nicholas Winton saving 669 kids from Czechoslovakia finding homes for these children in England- many of whose parents died in concentration camps. He kept his story quiet for nearly 50 years . He also didn’t work by himself.
Hungary; Raoul Gustaf Wallenberg with a board of hundreds of co-workers, many of them caught but saving tens of thousands of Jews in Nazi-occupied Hungary.
Every country would have a story about ‘invisible’ Christian’s work. It is just a glimpse what I put here. In every country almost every town has it’s story .And you won’t hear all the names as many were killed during in their rescue work. I suggest you read and think why why so many got it right. Did Jesus words’ change?
How about we put it this way. Xtians say their text is inspired. If Jsus is one part god and if this religion is suppose to be valid then WHY wasn’t it written better to begin with. Why didn’t Jsus make himself better understood. If the future is “known” by Jsus he should have known how centuries of Xtians would cause countless millions to die by the sword. OR, will you say that was the intent to have all these people murdered at the hands of Xtianity.
Sharbano, the same I can ask you. Why God did not write it better too , so that Jews would not sacrifice their children on the altars and pagan folks would not copy that horrible practice in the long long past ? Don’t you think God wouldn’t know that ahead? Why did He let holy wars to take place and other folks misused the idea for their evil practices as well? God’s word is God’s word, but people will always misuse it . Israel suffered long before even false Christians abused her. If not God’s words were misused then even without any words evil folks would still persecute you.
Eric I have no question that there are many Christians who would risk their lives to save others and many more who would not stoop down to the hatred of people like Martin Luther and John Chrysostom – I am not questioning that. All I am saying is that you have to judge a medicine by the effect it has on those who imbibe it – and those who did hate heavily outnumber those who didn’t over the course of history
ypf, ” Jesus is “explaining” that the reason people reject him is because they are children of the devil – as if there is no moral justification for questioning his ridiculous claims. That is dehumanizing your opponents”
No, ypf , it is not about that you can or can’t question somebody’s claims and not because of rejection they are called so. It is because of the ACTIONS Jesus judged them and called children of the devil. He spoke to a certain group who not just opposed him or had questions but a group of people who conspired evil against him and wanted to kill him although he called people to repentance and to follow God. . Like he said; “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.” John 8;39-44
He knew their evil thoughts that they desired to kill him including the one he raised back to life.
That;s why he is addressing them the children of the devil. “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth.”
I suggest you first analyze all details when you read instead of formulating such conclusions that do not carry the message that is in the text.
P.S about those who ‘claim to be Christians and hate Jews’ and outnumber the good ones. I do not call those Christians who kill,murder and hate neither Jesus does . So comparing all people as ‘Christians’ to each other that way doesn’t work.
Eric John 3:19-21 has Jesus dehumanizing people for not believing him – nothing to do with killing him As for John 8:31-47 – Jesus speaks of loving him and believing him on the one hand and not believing him, not hearing him and wanting to kill him on the other hand – there is no middle ground for Jesus – according to Jesus either you love him or you want to kill him – that is a false accusation PS – I don’t care who you call Christians – we are talking about judging a medicine and those people belonged to the community who drank the medicine
Ypf. “Eric John 3:19-21 has Jesus dehumanizing people for not believing him – nothing to do with killing him .”
Dehumanizing people ? Is God dehumanizing people when He says they should come to Him and have salvation but they still reject Him so He says they will face His day of wrath one day? Zeph 1;12-15
The same way John 3 is saying God is offering salvation to all because He gives His son for us. You do not need salvation , you are choosing no- salvation yourself.
Jesus is not dehumanizing anybody. People dehumanize themselves by rejecting God’s offer of salvation and say ‘we do not need it, we are fine on our own’.
“Jesus speaks of loving him and believing him on the one hand and not believing him, not hearing him and wanting to kill him on the other hand – there is no middle ground for Jesus ”
What middle ground are you looking for? You either believe God or not. There is no ‘stage’ between.
And your statement about John 8:31-47 is wrong base on your incorrect understanding what Jesus said
” according to Jesus either you love him or you want to kill him – that is a false accusation” Of course it is incorrect statement ; he is not saying that there is either loving him or wanting to kill him.” Desire of killing him belonged to that specific group of the leaders that he spoke to and they succeeded in that matter later about what they desired about him. ( to be executed) . If you weren’t interested in what Jesus was saying , you had also a choice to turn back and leave.
I do not care about your ‘wrong medicine’ accusations as it was not what was ‘prescribed’ by jesus to his followers to do. I do not call Assyrian’s actions towards Jews in the past as God’s medicine ‘taken incorrectly.” Call’ a medicine’ God’s words that He says to do and DO NOT assign to it a meaning of something that doesn’t exist.
On the one hand you have (G-d) who says to return to Him and on the other you have a (man) who says “believe in me”. Who do I listen to, G-d, or man. I choose G-d every time. Nowhere in Tanach, where G-d speaks directly, does He say to “believe in a man”, let alone a messiah.
Sharbano, Didn’t God use Moses when He led His people out of Egypt? God said’ I will lead you , I led you out of Egypt although He used a man. The same way He is using Jesus to guide us and Jesus is not adding anything or taking away from who God is. He is the fulfillment of God’s promises regarding our salvation why we can have eternal life and why our sins can be washed away. If I trust God about His message I also trust that His servant .
The BIG difference IS Moshe told the people they will not believe ME. It is why G-d would reveal His Presence at Sinai, to show it wasn’t Moshe. And Certainly Jsus was NO Moshe. Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.
sharbano, ” Find a place where Tanach speaks of G-d asking for Israel to return to Him and in that same place says you must believe in a human redeemer.”
There is a difference between believing in a human redeemer and believing somebody is that redeemer from God. God is showing you that His servant is paying for others for their justification. Your accepting God’s truth about it means you believe in that person being from God. This is what we call ‘believing in Jesus”. Believing somebody’s existence is not a means of salvation. Many know Jesus existed and that doesn’t mean anything. Believing means trusting God in what He accomplished through that servant for us and that equals believing God.
As far as human redeemer. God always used humans to carry on His will , even to set others free. You may call Moshe a human redeemer as he led you out of Egypt. But that doesn’t mean he takes God’s place, as without God’s will Moses wouldn’t do anything! The human redeemer will be also the Messiah as he is told to take part in Israels’ redemption. And still he is not replacing God because he won’t act out of God’s will.
As far as 59:9-12 didn’t you confuse the verses??? I didn’t speak about that chapter.
Your belief in based upon being absolved of any responsibility of what sins might have occurred. This is quite the powerful psychological opiate. It relieves a person of any guilt feelings from the sin that brought him to the religion. I don’t recall reading anywhere in the Xtian text whereby a person Has to made amends, payment, or any other forms of recompense for any past actions.
The Jews, on the other hand, believe and trust G-d Because he Spoke at Sinai, along with the signs and redemption from Egypt. When it comes to expiation of sins, if they are against anyone, the person must first clear that before any atonement on Yom Kippur. Therefore, to me, Judaism appears as a Just and righteous method whereas Xtianity allows a person to take the easy way without any responsibility and any persons harmed are of no concern.
Sharbano, during the Messianic times it is said’ God will be a King over the whole earth and the Messiah will reign as a glorious king. Does it mean there will be two kings? So whom we will have to listen to? Or what a need for two kings? Isn’t God sufficient? Yet He will still reign through a man- His messiah he spoke in various books of Isaiah and Jeremiah. What He will want to say He will say through His King Messiah, we will have to listen to his words as they will be God’s words. That’s how it is with jesus.
Mashiach will be King and G-d is King of Kings, since G-d doesn’t inhabit the earth. The King will be an agent of G-d, the judge of the nations.
Sharbano I am glad you understand that. So is Jesus for us the same way as the king will be during Messianic times.
eric Jesus is the opposite of David David points everyone to God – highlighting his own need for God Jesus points everyone to himself obscuring his own dependence on God with his claims for divinity
Sharbano, You are trying to get away from facing the answer. Of course altar has nothing to do with drinking blood. I showed you it as an example that altar sprinkled with blood for ‘to purify it’ – if understood LITERALLY would be as ridiculous as hearing of drinking blood which is understood by you almost literally!
“Once a person goes down the road to say it is G-d’s will that a human can be a sacrifice for man, as the pagans had done, then nothing is out of the question.”
Let me ask you a question; if you were to die/ be killed and someone comes and says he will die/be killed in your place to save your life, does it sound like a pagan idea???? If you were to be hit by a car and someone jumps in front to save you and he dies it is a pagan sacrifice?
This is exactly what jesus did. He took our punishment and sins for us willingly as our punishment would be complete death.
God did not need Jesus dead for whatever purposes, neither He told us to offer him to Himself as a human sacrifice. His act was to willingly carry peoples’ iniquities.
You have a completely a wrong vision about it.
‘Do you think Jsus spoke anything new regarding adultery’
Of course he didn’t have to add anything new but he needed to give examples of what is a sin to those who thought they did not sin. You can’t speak for everybody. His message is to all people, not to some jews who ‘ won’t sit next to a woman in a bus”.
“Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.”
You are kidding. How much do you know your own bible???
Back to the same story; believing is not only knowing God spoke to Moshe. It included believing Moses concerning the words God spoke to him that included God would take care of everything water, food, etc on the desert but they complained all the time. Here you have a reason why it took them so long to get to a place they were supposed to get in a short time and why so many perished.
So revealing God’s presence is not the key to belief. God doesn’t just want you to know THAT HE SPOKE but He wants your TRUST .
“Moshe told the people they will not believe ME”
Appearing to people wasn’t even the first sign to create credibility! They already had the whole set of wonders ( God’s hand) behind they experienced.
God confirmed it FIRST with HIS MIRACLES that showed His power over the NATURE and power over LIFE and DEATH and SICKNESS.
Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you’?” Ex 4
“Then the Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?”A staff,” he replied.
The Lord said, “Throw it on the ground.”
Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. 4 Then the Lord said to him, “Reach out your hand and take it by the tail.” So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. 5 “This,” said the Lord, “is SO THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE that the Lord, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.”
Then the Lord said, “Put your hand inside your cloak.” So Moses put his hand into his cloak, and when he took it out, the skin was leprous[a]—it had become as white as snow.
“Now put it back into your cloak,” he said. So Moses put his hand back into his cloak, and when he took it out, it was restored, like the rest of his flesh.”
You analogy of someone substituting his life is ridiculous in the extreme. It has No comparative value. The analogy of one life for another doesn’t compare to one who is at the hands of punishment. Has anyone ever offered to go to death row in place of a person waiting there. THAT would be a correct analogy.
Are you admitting G-d didn’t want or require Jsus to die for the sins of mankind. Then all the proof texts, including Isaiah, doesn’t speak about Jsus at all. The “willingness” of Jsus is no different than those Jews who went into the gas chambers. As the Rabbi, and others, have pointed out that Tanach is quite specific that No One can replace another for expiation of sins. Therefore even if Jsus was “willing” it is to no avail.
My goodness, do you even Read what you paste of another comments. You copied my comment:
“Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.”
(Moshe didn’t complain!!!!) yet YOUR reply is “they complained all the time”. I spoke of Moshe and you speak of the Israelites. I made the comparison that Moshe didn’t complain but Jsus DOES complain. No wonder you have difficulty with Tanach.
Once again you are not grasping the fundamentals. Moshe knew the Israelites wouldn’t take HIS word for it that G-d is telling him all this. Moshe knew that miracles alone are not enough to sustain a nation to believe in generation after generation. If you would have studied the entire Torah you would find in Exodus 6 that Moshe spoke to Israel but they did not heed him. It isn’t until Exodus 19 that Hashem says to Moshe “Behold! I come to you in the thickness of the cloud so that the people will HEAR AS I SPEAK TO YOU, and they will also believe in you FOREVER.” It is BECAUSE G-d SPOKE at Sinai that Jews have accepted Torah from that time until today and have continuously followed that Torah. As with most Xtians you miss the finer points of Torah.
Sharbano, “No One can replace another for expiation of sins.” I “get it” ; it has to be a group death. Jesus can’t die for others but the nation can. Neither Isaiah is then about the nation; we all went astray and you were inflicted for us.” God inflicted upon you iniquity of us all’. v.6
v.11 ” My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he carries”
It was all explained in the long post. I suspect you are now just trying to be obstinate.
Sharbano, “The “willingness” of Jsus is no different than those Jews who went into the gas chambers.” The most insane statement of yours. If Jews had a choice to choose life or gas chambers , were they choosing concentration camps willingly?? I thought you were more intelligent, but that statement you put takes away so much from you.
Go back and read that long post. This is what it’s about. Did the Jews walk into the gas chambers under their own power.
Eric throughout history, Jews could have bent their knee to Jesus and that would have spared them the horrors of Christian love – it was often a choice if not in every instance
Sharbano, of course I copied your comment ON PURPOSE.
“Moshe never complained saying ‘why don’t you believe me’.” he didn’t have to express his frustration aloud to the people, it was enough he heard complaining as disbelief was still there and that’s what mattered as God wasn’t ‘pleased ‘ with those who didn’t want to trust HIM.
I
Do you even realize what you’re doing. What is taking place is a “progression of thought”. Your constant feeble attempts are to take one step out of that and isolate it without any consideration for the whole.
This was all about Jsus and his complaint the people didn’t believe him. It was the same with Moshe, which he knew, and the reason G-d would reveal Himself. Your reply, therefore, is not relevant.
Eric Hogwash! Did God need to speak through David? If you want to understand why we need a human king when we have God then look at David
Eric God proved Himself – over and over again – so if you are rejecting Him you are fighting with the truth. Jesus did not begin to prove himself – so if you question his authenticity you are following the God of truth. If he condemns you for questioning him when it is the morally correct thing to do then he is dehumanizing. No one is saying “we are fine on our own” – what we are saying is that we have everything with God and Jesus cannot add on to what we already have with God. You ask me – what middle ground I am looking for – simply people who do not believe in Jesus because they were never given a legitimate reason to do so John 8:31-47 actually has Jesus talking to people who do believe in him if you believe the Christian Scriptures – it says nothing about leaders – I will take this opportunity to ask you Jim’s question – why do you care if you think I misquote Jesus but you have no problem with Matthew misquoting Isaiah? About the medicine – just do the case study – or let me word this question differently – if someone were to tell you that your child is going to be transported 1000 years back in time – but you have a choice as to which community he will land up in – what will you choose for your child?
ypf, By you misquoting jesus you make him not who he is and what he says. The message is altered to the point of making a true speaker a lair.
As far as Matthew misquoting Isaiah? I looked at the list at those that the skeptics consider being misquoted. The difference is like with the following 3 or more translations of the same verse , example;
Isaiah 40:3. They all differ but they all contain the same message;
“A voice is calling “NASB translation
“a voice rings out ” JPS Jewish translation
” a voice calls out” / Tanakh Art scroll)
“Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness;( NASB )
“clear in the desert” JPS Jewish translation,
“in the wilderness clear the way of Hashem” (Tanach Art scroll)
“Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God”. ( NASB)
“a road for the Lord” JPS Jewish translation
” make a straight path in the desert , a road for our God.”(Tanach Art scroll)
All said differently but the same message;
there will be a voice calling for a certain purpose to clear the way or make it ready for the Lord to come.
Why Matthew uses his language? The same way different translators use theirs.
In matthew 3;3 he says ;
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ said differently but THE SAME MESSAGE CARRIED
Why is jesus the only way to God?
The Bible says, “God in Christ reconciled the world unto himself” and “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (II Corinthians 5:19, 21).
He is the one by whom we are reconciled with God, by whom our sins are covered, by whom we can have our eternal life back that was lost because of sin In Eden.
I would chose the same community for my kids they are already in, where they can know God and the one God used for our redemption.
Eric Try analyzing Matthew’s quote of Isaiah 7:14 God says you can be reconciled to Him by turning to Him and to Him alone – Isaiah 55:7, Ezekiel 18:28; Malachi 3:7 – Jesus is contradicting God
ypf, being reconciled with God also includes respecting and listening to those whom God put in charge.
Eric Agreed – it also includes rejecting those who speak against His holy word.
ypf, examples of him speaking against God’s holy words?
Eric I gave you an example – I’ll say it again – “no one comes to the father but through me” contradicts Psalm 145:18
ypf, ” throughout history, Jews could have bent their knee to Jesus and that would have spared them the horrors of Christian love – it was often a choice if not in every instance”
It all has to go together. You often give examples of Christian oppression to justify Jewish claims concerning Is 53 regarding the suffering. But you were not cut off from the land of the living due to the Christian oppression. ” through the sins of my people who deserved punishment”
P.S You won’t go to the Father but die in your sins if you keep rejecting His forgiveness, the way He washed you from your sins through His son. This is what Jesus saying is about.
Eric The article entitled Good, Bad and Both was written for you – please read it How does one “reject God’s forgiveness” if one trusts in God with all His heart?
As a matter of clarification. We only speak of Xtians because they have had power for 2000 years. But this doesn’t exclude all the other nations, such as Ishmael, Greeks, and others. If one looks at a map of different nations conquering lands you’ll find it is almost all the same territory. The only differences were the Far Eastern nations. China, for example, never conquered Israel. What is interesting is that both China and Japan gave refuge for the Jews during WWII, whereas the US would lift a finger because they thought they had enough Jews, and Britain, the epitome of evil, wouldn’t even allow ships to dock and sent them out to sea to drown. Britain would align with Arabs to fight against Jews in Israel, all the while Jews were fighting with Britain against Hitler y”s.
I’m certainly Not going to believe in such hogwash as a “man washing my sins”. G-d does it ON HIS OWN.
Sharbano, God doesn’t throw His words on the wind . He said atonement is in the blood. You said “I am Not going to believe in such hogwash as a “man washing my sins”. G-d does it ON HIS OWN.”
A man is not washing your sins. It is God who decides your sins are washed. The same way an animal didn’t wash your sins either at the temple , when it was offered yet God used it in a symbolic manner to point you to some better way He was to provide for you and He did.
Eric The blood spoken of in Leviticus 17:11 refers to the blood on the altar – not to Jesus’ blood. Also God said that repentance works to cleanse yu of your sins – those words don’t go to the wind either
Sharb, Have you ever found a reason for a blood on the altar, if repentance is all what’s needed?
Blood wasn’t the only method of atonement. You have a dilemma with atonement, sin etc. In the Third Temple all these will be reinstated. Apparently Jsus only works until the Temple is rebuilt.
sharbano, “Blood wasn’t the only method of atonement. You have a dilemma with atonement, sin etc. In the Third Temple all these will be reinstated. ”
You should have asked yourself a question, why even one of the method like that? That ‘method’ wasn’t deprived of ‘ repentance’ , repentance was there yet still that ‘method’ required blood. Not because God needed it! So what is the other need if not to show you the cost of sin is death? The same truth that you learn from genesis 3. If the sacrifices in the 3rd temple are to be present , they are for the same reason they were present in the first temple although you could just ‘go by repentance’ according to the scriptures. There is that one truth that is constantly repeated in the house of God.
If repentance itself was enough nobody would have to ever die. If God is promising eternal life to those who follow him, He would not have to let those die at all as they would be forgiven. So jesus is not there because God’s forgiveness is not enough. He is there so that God can raise us back to life through His son who paid for our future redemption. ( which is different than repentance)
I guess Jsus will have to die a “second time”, in the messianic age of the Third Temple, and be resurrected a second time, and return a third time.
Sharbano, once you are resurrected back to life you are resurrected to eternal life with God. While through one man death came to the world , so through one righteous one we are reconciled back with God and sins covered. No need for such a person of a second death of jesus.
This shows a marked difference between Jewish texts and Xtian texts. The true Jewish texts will highlight the failing and what is needed. There would be no purpose, in the long run, to detail all the righteous acts by the righteous.
What the Xtian text does is the opposite. It tries to lead the reader to see the Pharisee as the epitome of all evil. The only difficulty is that a Jew, knowledge and observant, will see through the facade and realize that Jsus is wanting.
Sharbano, “The true Jewish texts will highlight the failing and what is needed. ”
Yes and NT highlights you what is needed ;repentance! Turning back to God. It talks about it over and over.
ypfriend, “Eric If you want to know how a medicine works you look at its effect on those who drank it ”
Yes, drink it PROPERLY and you will know how it worked for you. You might take it wrong and will be seen as ‘sicker ‘ that before. That’;s why nobody can tell others whether it worked for them or not, only the one who took it knows what is his condition and how it improved. And I am very thankful to God for Jesus ‘that worked for me’.
Eric You have to judge the whole package – including the instructions If only one in a thousand knows how to drink the medicine “properly” – then the instructions were written poorly – especially when you have a competing medicine that did so much better over the same test period (2000 years)
There you go again, “the Pharisee’s hate”. It is clear to anyone who reads that they can see the hateful rhetoric by Jsus TO the Pharisees.
Sharbano, who wanted to get rid of whom? Ask yourself a question? Jesus didn’t plot to kill Pharisees even though he didn’t see their ways righteous. They plotted to kill him. Do not tell me it was because of ;love’ .
You have just proved many of our perceptions of the Xtian text. You have used the term Pharisee as a collective and THIS is what the Xtian text has brought to the entire world.
Exactly WHEN was that written about the Pharisees. When Moshe was in the desert G-d said to him to write these words and in that way there is authenticity to the words. Jsus wanted his words to be hidden from view and the writings weren’t done for 50 – 90 years Later.
Dina, sorry but that statement can be read both ways “The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness” my emphasis.” as gentile would only use it for condemnation so better not to read it because they do not understand it .
But what condemnation do you see when we try to talk about jesus the Messiah in OT? Simply that all people are sinners both Jews and gentiles and they both need a savior and that God provided somebody who paid for our mistakes. And if you insist that ‘ it is you the nation justifying others in is 53 that is when we show you that WE ALL WENT ASTRAY … no difference! It is not to point your mistakes and condemn you!! We do not make you worst than gentiles or the opposite.
Eric, I don’t know what planet you’re living on. Christians often point out our sins in the Bible, for various reasons.
Dina, “what is the point of a covenant nation if they can’t be identified as such? How can a Jew follow God’s commandments to Jews if he doesn’t even know he is Jewish?”
God’s commandants rely on these two; love your God and love your neighbors ( that includes no harming each other etc and all the points in the law) . You do not have to be looking Jewish or not to know that. Children of God are children of faith and trust in Him. Even a Jew who doesn’t remember he is Jew can follow that, so he is not lost before God.
God’s goal in making the covenants was for Israel to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation and by that to be a blessing to others. We know that. While the nation has failed to achieve this goal it will be achieved in a future day for God is sovereign and keeps His promises. It is not because Jews are loosing their identity . In OT times there was no converts to NT teaching through which Israel would loose their identity. God is waiting for the obedient hearts and knows who is His.
Everything God promised the nation through the covenants will be fulfilled when the Messiah comes to set up His kingdom on earth and rule as “David’s greater Son” (Luke 1.31-33, 20.41-44; so Israel can fulfill its role of being a blessing. (Matthew 23.39; Romans 11.15) It is through Israel that God promised to bringing up the Messiah who will rule with iron road over the nations. It is through him that all will be restored ; Israel and being a blessing. But so far you rejected your messiah because you do not believe he is the one restoring the others not the nation.
I don’t believe you are grasping what the point is. When it comes to Xtianity if a person leaves Torah and becomes a Xtian there isn’t the impetus to marry a Jew. It is compounded when Paul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Just as it was in Ezra’ time the men took on foreign wives. Their children weren’t Jewish and had to put them away. It’s not a matter of those Jews who became Xtians in the past and their descendants NOT knowing they are Jews but rather they are NOT Jews. They have Severed their Jewish ties. There is a Rabbi at the Kotel who tells Jewish kids to be sure and marry a Jewish girl. He knows the outcome of not doing so.
Sharbano, just a question; what do you accuse messianic Jews who keep the Sabath? What makes those Jews not being Jews any more to you? What changed in them regarding keeping the law in comparing to you keeping the law? What changed I mean besides them believing Jesus is the Messiah.
Eric Keeping the Sabbath is a testimony that God is the absolute Master of all – worshipers of Jesus do not believe that God is the absolute Master of all – so their worship makes no sense. Being a Jew means being a witness to the truth of God’s absolute Mastery over all – anyone who worships another being aside from the One Creator of heaven and earth has violated the covenant between God and His people
ypfriend, “worshipers of Jesus do not believe that God is the absolute Master of all” you have a poor understanding about what we believe. Lack of words..
Eric Worshipers of Jesus do not believe that Jesus was a subject of God, worshipers of Jesus do not recognize that as absolute Master, God dictates where it is that our hearts should be devoted to and it is not our choice.
ypfriend, Jesus clearly said; ” my Father is greater than me” john 10;29 and many similar like that, he goes to the Father, he depends on the Fathers , he doesn’t do anything apart from the will of the Father, he doesn’t change Father’s ways, he leaves decisions to the Father. And he is reflection of His glory , so unless you understand who is Jesus you will know that our devotion to him doesn’t diminish the Father.
Eric Of course your devotion diminishes the Father – because ALL devotion belongs to the Father
ypfriend, you do not understand what is meant here by devotion. You can’t speak for others who feel gratitude for jesus for what he has done , not understanding it . You can’t decide for others judging them whether they prize God whether not. I suggest you worry about yourself , not us.
Eric I love this – You come here to preach that we (the Jews) worry about ourselves because we don’t understand your devotion. Eric – some questions if I may – How many Jewish missionaries come knocking on your door trying to get you to change your beliefs? how many pamphlets, videos, booklets does your community receive from Jewish organizations trying to get you to redirect your devotion? How many Jewish organizations do you know of that make it their effort to try to convert Christians who are not interested in converting out of their faith? I don’t care to understand your devotion – all I know is that the missionaries of your faith tell me that my devotion is misdirected – that’s all I need to know – because my devotion belongs to One and to One alone and that is not good for the missionaries
I haven’t seen a messianic who kept Shabbat as prescribed.
Sharbano, where do you live, on which planet? So many churches reserved Saturdays for Sabbath sermons for messianic Jews. And by the way it is time for fellowship with God. Can you speak for others that their time with God spent is not the right way’?
You mentioned to Yisroel about anyone “who wants to know Him”, and “no hidden information”.
Here you mention so many churches reserve Saturday for Shabbat. Reserving “a day” is Not being Shomer Shabbat. Do these messianics adhere to the 39 Melachot. Not only do they Not but decry Jews for doing so. So, how can one have “fellowship with G-d” if he doesn’t do what is required of him.
Sharbano, Now you are trying to decide for others whether they can or qualify to have relationship with God. It is everybody’s personal thing between them/you and God , so judging for others not knowing their heart is pointless .
You made the big deal regarding churches who “reserve” Saturday. A person either observes Shabbat or he doesn’t. These people I spoke of Do Not. It means nothing when a person says they observe Shabbat by observing a “rest day”.
Sharbano, I do not care about ‘reserving a day’ but I am saying they wanted their Sabbath day be on the sabbath day. And do not judge based on you encounters to say that’s how they do it.
Then you cannot call it a Sabbath day. THAT has a certain definition and certain requirements. What it amounts to is a redefinition of the word. These people Chose that day because it is defined in Torah. If a person is going to “follow” Torah then it SHOULD be done According to Torah.
Sharbano, then argue with those Christians Jews who do keep sabbath if you have problems with how they do things.
I didn’t bring up the point about Xtians moving their worship day to Saturday. You were making it sound like these Saturday worshipers were “keeping Shabbat”. All I have done is point out how this is Not the case. So, it’s Your problem for bringing it up in the first place. I only responded.
Sharbano, the key was to see what do you have against Messianic Jews who keep the Sabbath as you keep coming with weird arguments that they can’t be worshiping a true God because they believe jesus is their Messiah. You use these repeated phrases that they do not follow the Torah. like they do not keep the law etc They did not become lawbreakers because they believe in jesus.
And your scapegoat argument that they believe jesus is god doesn’t work here either, as many treat him as it is written ; a Son of God.
You’re still on this. If they believe that Jsus is a god then YES they are NOT worshiping The True G-d. If they do Not believe in this then that part isn’t the problem. But if they Say they are keeping Shabbat and do Not observe it according to Torah then they are Violating Torah. It is as simple as that.
I recall a Rabbi asked one of these believers that say they keep Shabbat and whether or not they light the stove and cook on Shabbat. They said, of course, we have to eat. He showed them in Torah that one is Not to kindle a fire on Shabbat. He was Unaware of that prohibition. Torah is quite specific that says one Must “prepare” for Shabbat prior To Shabbat. Since Shabbat is likened to Olam Haba and as one prepares for Shabbat, so must one prepare for Olam Haba. If one is to “observe” the day he should do it accordingly. Now, if one doesn’t Know how to properly observe it and, upon learning, does it, then all is good. As Torah prescribes, “do these”. This person, upon learning, DID change what he had done in the past and subsequently did as prescribed. There are those, though, who will scoff at such information and call it “legalistic”, “Rabbinic Judaism”. These are the rebellious ones which is spoken of.
Eric Your problem is not with me – it is with God – I quoted Scripture to back up my point you just got emotional Psalm 147:19,20; Deuteronomy 33:4; Zechariah 8:23
ypfriend, emotional? rather critical to the nonsense I heard if you meant what you meant in your previous message.
” I quoted Scripture to back up my point you just got emotional Psalm 147:19,20; Deuteronomy 33:4; Zechariah 8:23″
These verses do not back up your concept that the bible is not to be read by gentiles. Ps 147 says you were the nation God introduced his law ( what is good what is wrong) and Zechariah is about messianic times. All people are to learn what God said and are able to read and distinguish wrong from good, so they do not need a tutor to the book.
Eric Where does it say the word “introduced” in Psalm 147:19,20? Show me anywhere in the entire Jewish Bible where it says that Gentiles are to learn to distinguish good from bad by reading the Bible? By the way – what does the word “inheritance” mean? (as in Deuteronomy 33:4) – if you have an inheritance does it mean that I can have it too?
ypfriend, you make everybody stupid and yourself all knowing. We all can learn from what was written about Israel in OT. We all can learn from the ways how God led you and from your mistakes and promises of God relating the future . And the thing you reject God’s testimony in NT makes you extremely unreliable source of knowledge to follow.
Eric It is not a question of stupid or smart – the question is – who is the intended audience of this book? The book itself makes the answer to this question very clear in many different ways – you are refusing to consider the question – not on the basis of Scripture – but because you find it insulting
ypfriend, “Do you really believe that Eric? That everyone who doesn’t accept Jesus then he must be a “lover of darkness”? And that those who do accept him were “lovers of light” even before they accepted him? ”
First you have to understand what is meant by the word ‘ light’ in John. It is not just physical person of jesus. It is his words he is saying about coming to God and turning away from evil , trusting in God and following Him. And he is showing that example.
All those who do not come to that light jesus is showing them , are those who relay on their own righteousness and justify their deeds according to their own ways. And they might seem all right to them but they are not God’s ways.
John doesn’t use the word ‘ lovers of..” in the sense of being ‘ in love’ with your deeds whether wrong or good. So ‘lovers of darkness ‘ are not those who necessarily ‘love’ doing wrong ( but there are many!) but simply people relying on their own ways of righteousness as it is more ‘comfortable’ to them. Who came to Jesus’ light in the gospels? People who weren’t afraid to admit they are not perfect and that their own righteousness wouldn’t make them right with God. They realized the truth about themselves and jesus showed them that they are forgiven. The Samaritan lady in conversation with jesus found out he knew everything about her. He told her she had 5 husbands and the man she lived with wasn’t her husband. She wasn’t a ‘lover of darkness ‘ because she enjoyed doing what’s wrong. She lived the life which seemed convenient and comfortable to her that way. And after being confronted with the truth about her life she didn’t deny the details. She didn’t run away from light in which her deeds were exposed. So she came to Jesus’ light and realized ; ‘ yes this is me’ and believed him. That also didn’t mean she was a ‘lover of light’ before in the sense of ‘loving’ righteous life before. So ‘lovers of life or darkness’- as you put it – have more to do with being willing to expose yourself before God and not relying on your own deeds believing they make you righteous.
Eric So is that what you believe – that everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus is relying on their own righteousness?
ypfriend. you can have 2 people talking and the third party can still understand what the conversation is about if you have all information exposed. The same way God is dealing with you , the same way He is dealing with others. There is no secret in any move and all what God is like He would reveal to anybody who wants to know Him. The same way He dealt with people in OT the same way he would deal with everyone who wants to know Him. No hidden information reserved only to you that others can’t learn from.
Eric Good analogy – but the third party listening in must accept that the target audience is someone other than themselves and try to understand the message with the mind-set of the target audience In this case that means understanding the mentality of the Jewish nation – and how this mentality is maintained throughout the generations
SO, because a Jew is Not a Xtian they cannot understand their own words. The problem YOU have is you have to rely, first, on translations, and second, not having all the information.
Furthermore, there is NO “G-d’s testimony” in the Xtian text. That is based upon assumptions. Nowhere in the Xtian text does it relate, “…and G-d said to (a person) saying…”
Sharbano, “SO, because a Jew is Not a Xtian they cannot understand their own words. : Nobody says you do not understand your own words.
You do not have to become a christian to understand Is 53. Even non messianic Jews see clearly the text as spoken about Jesus, they do not see themselves there
An educated Jew, in Torah AND history, WILL see that Isaiah 53 is about Israel. STILL you ignore the context that begins in 52. Not only does My Servant refer to Israel in many places but it is even More pronounced in the introduction to 53, which begins in 52.
Sharbano, God speaks directly through jesus. He put His words in His son . John 14;10 That’s why jesus is more than just a prophet and called ‘ word of God’.
Many have come and said they speak in G-d’s name only to be found false. In Torah, Moshe spoke words that G-d spoke, NOT what was in his heart. THERE is the difference. And That is why Moshe told G-d the people would Not believe in him alone. So G-d Spoke To The People. Did this happen in the Xtian text.
Sharbano, I already showed you God would not support a flash prophet with resurrection into everlasting life
Eric The root cause of the evil still sits on your library shelves – if you don’t study the evil of those who taught you what to believe – you will be passing on these same mistakes to future generations
ypfriend, I am not in danger to pass anything to other generations as I do not follow others but the words of jesus who tells me NOT to hate and he doesn’t tell me to bring a sword to anybody’s neck because they do not believe.
Eric You cannot honestly say this if you don’t study the past – the roots of Christian Jew hatred
What was the purpose of those swords. It started with the Greeks where nations attempted to sever Judaism from the Jew. Xtianity learned that method wasn’t working. Then came the burning of the books of Jews. Judaism was Not to survive. If they couldn’t destroy all the books then censoring would be a method of ending Judaism. And also came Disputations. In all, the purpose was to allow a few Jews to remain to show Xtians how the nation was cursed. Xtianity had a rude awakening when Israel was established. This was Not to happen, but it did. Even newer methods had to be employed. Nowadays there is no more hate by the sword, because this is the “love generation”. It is the “summer of love”. In all this history there is the same end result. Make Jews into Xtians. Whether a Jew dies by the sword or by assimilation the result doesn’t change. “There is neither Jew nor Gentile”, so those assimilated lose any Jewish heritage. They don’t have little Jewish children. Just as Western civilization claims a Greco-Roman heritage, that heritage hasn’t changed. It’s goal is to make everyone “Greek”, Jew and Gentile alike. Xtianity has adopted this heritage. There isn’t a sect of Xtianity, messianic or otherwise, that doesn’t aim for this goal. What kept the Pharisaic Tradition alive all this time is what is fought against, whether by sword or by love.
ypf, “Jesus is the opposite of David David points everyone to God – highlighting his own need for God Jesus points everyone to himself obscuring his own dependence on God with his claims for divinity.”
How can that statement “I do nothing on my own” John 5;19 obscure his dependence on God??
Jesus very specifically said he credited everything to the Father for everything he did or spoke . Nothing was done of his own will by God’s . John 5;19
Eric Jesus sends mixed messages – on the one hand you have statements such as those you quoted on the other hand you have statements in which he equates himself with the father. The underlying message of Christianity is that everyone “needs” Jesus. David sends no mixed messages – no one ever walked away from the Psalms thinking that this is about David – on the other hand no one ever walked away from the Christian Scriptures thinking that this isn’t about Jesus
ypf, yes all need jesus as through him God provided us His redemption. If you put ‘God’s redemption’ ‘ our atoning for sin ‘ in the place of the name of jesus you will get it while we all need it if.
Not all psalms were exceptional about david and that was understood by ancient jews whose accounts you reject, as they are too ‘Christian like for you. Many were understood as conveying messianic note, messianic application, events relating to the times of the messiah.
Eric No – Jesus makes himself an article of devotion – no “means of redemption” in the Jewish Bible is an article of devotion And you accuse me of rejecting “ancient Jewish” accounts – where did you pick up this idea? what accounts do I reject?
ypf, Midrash, Talmud is full of messianic application to certain psalms and Is 53. Do you believe them the commentaries left by the jews in the long past concerning those messianic applications? They were not all correct but they carried lots of message we know now.
Eric I teach the same – why do you accuse me of rejecting these commentaries? – I wrote about this in Contra Brown in the section entitled “what did the rabbis say?”
ypf, My “devotion” is no different than when it will be towards the king in the messianic times. jesus is never asking to put him above God , above the Father.
Eric the devotion to the Messiah is a branch of our devotion to God – as I explained in the article entitled “Yearning for the Messiah”
YOU don’t want to “feel guilty” but in typical fashion YOU want the Jew to feel guilty. This is the method Xtians use to bring people to Jsus.
Sharbano, you still messed the point ‘YOU don’t want to “feel guilty” but in typical fashion YOU want the Jew to feel guilty. This is the method Xtians use to bring people to Jsus.”
I said I do not feel guilty of crimes I did not participate in; of the crimes done by others who even lived before I live. I can be sorry for what others did and condemn the actions but I can’t feel guilty for them. Is that clear?
I do not remember what that statement of your related to that we want Jews to feel guilty. Guilty of what????? If we read in NT that a group of leaders gave on Jesus their judgement and wanted him dead, It doesn’t mean I blame you or other Jews for that. I also do not blame Jews for their fathers mistakes written in OT. Everybody is responsible for their own actions. I do not put all into one sack like you do; that we all hate Jews.
Eric, in reference to https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/what-do-miracles-prove/#comment-20949
You quoted me thus: “Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT.”
Then you proved my point by quoting slander of the Pharisees from your very NT mentioned above. It’s astonishing! You totally missed the point.
According to your logic, since the Pharisees hated Jesus so much of course they didn’t write anything about him, then since the Christians hated the Jews so much then they wouldn’t have written anything about them.
You have to completely ignore human nature to believe that the Pharisees hated Jesus so much that that’s why the didn’t write anything about him. Human nature is such that we can’t keep strong emotions bottled up. Certainly, a whole people for generation after generation would not be able to keep every single person from writing even one hateful word about Jesus. The reason the Pharisees didn’t write hateful words about Jesus and even the Christians who persecuted them isn’t because of their remarkable self-restraint.
It’s because they didn’t hate Jesus and even their tormentors, although by the time the Talmud was written Christian persecution of Jews had begun in earnest.
The reason Christian writings contain so much anti-Jewish venom is that their authors hated Jews.
That’s how human nature works.
The truth is, your view of the Pharisees, which you learned from your scripture, bears no relationship to actual Pharisees then and now.
About the Sabbath as a sign: I agree with you that it’s possible to outwardly keep the sign but not be following God’s ethical and moral commandments, and yes, the prophets warn us not to perform rituals with empty hearts but with hearts full of love for and service to God.
What you keep ignoring is the fact that a Jew cannot be righteous if he disobeys God’s commandments. Therefore, for a Jew to keep the ethical and moral commandments is not enough; he must also observe the Sabbath and all of God’s other commandments. (It’s also true that for a Jew to keep the ritual commandments is not enough; he must also observe the ethical and moral commandments.) I do not know why you insist that the two are mutually exclusive. One can do both, as have many Jews throughout the generations. The Sabbath is the sign God gave us as an eternal sign between us of our covenant. Nothing that you said negates this point. The ones who have faithfully observed the Sabbath and faithfully passed that observance on to their children are the ones who are the keepers of the covenant (and yes, the faithful ones observe it with their hearts; it’s not an empty ritual, not at all–and if you think so then you must not personally know any Orthodox Jews).
““I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..”
The point is–the sign works. Messianic Jews and other non-observant Jews are also descended from the Jews at Mount Sinai, but they will lose their Jewish identity within a few generations. That’s what history and the statistics (Pew Research Poll) show, like it or not.
““I am a physical descendant of the original Jews who stood at Mount Sinai.” So are all jews -descendants all them even Messianic Jews as they( if their grandparents were always Jews, no matter whether observant or not) had their grandparents standing on Mount S..”
I noted my ancestry in response to something else you said. I can’t remember what it was, but I think your response changes the topic.
You may Think no one wanted him alive and disparate groups would combine for such an end, but this just isn’t the case. Since you rely SOLELY on your book, in isolation, you are literally unaware of the historical accounts. The Pharisees were at great odds with the Romans, and the Sadducees were nothing short of stooges for the Empire. There would have been No unification on the account on any one individual. You assume, according to what is written in your book, that J’sus was someone who had contact with the majority of the population. According to the numbers his interactions were with relatively few people. Because of your isolated reading you are unaware of the much Greater following that Rabbi Akiva had. HE was much more influential than could ever imagine.
sharbano
“simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”
You said; It depends upon your meaning of Oppose. If that is in conjunction with questioning then there is a problem.
Questioning or rejecting what God said. If he says’ repent, you say’; no’ you oppose Him, it is logical.
That’s what jesus addressed in the gospels; opposing him was opposing God as he was not speaking in his own name but what the Father send him with. call to repentance was not his idea but God’s call.
First of all, how will one know whether or not G-d is saying repent. I see G-d’s actions virtually every day of my life and it takes on many many forms and methods. It’s not questionable because it is too apparent. The examples I heard some Xtians give is coincidental at best.
To your point. Opposing him was opposing G-d. Well, say J’sus. That’s what HE says, and WHY should we believe Him.
Everything Has to be “according to Torah”. If it is Not “first and foremost in Torah” then it has to be weighed by THAT standard. Our first writing comes from Moshe. He says G-d sent me and has to inquire of His name. He Knows, going back to Avraham, that he will be asked who sent him, being that he was raised by the Egyptians. From then on Moshe didn’t just dictate what the people were to do etc. Each and every time it is record, G-d said to Moshe, G-d told Moshe to tell the people, saying… Etc. It is the same with the Prophets. They all write that G-d told them to speak THESE WORDS. Nowhere is this found in the gospels or by Paul. All of it are their own words and none attribute it to G-d, “saying This to them”. None of it follows the Torah standard which G-d, He, Himself set forth.
Another facet comes to mind. Does J’sus EVER even ONCE say to the people. OUR Father. I only recall him saying “My Father”, as if he is speaking to crowds of non-Jews. This is an interesting matter to digest. It May shed even More light on the authorship.
Sharbano, “Does J’sus EVER even ONCE say to the people. OUR Father. I only recall him saying “My Father”,
“(…)but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'” John 20 ;17
Jesus doesn’t say ‘thus says the Lord (…)” but he says instead; ” It is written(..)”
Sharbano
“I cannot count the times I’ve heard that “believers” are Not to question these matters. To do so is to be guided by the devil, which, by the way, is a concept foreign to Judaism, but prevalent in pagan culture.”
First thing; I do not know where you take your info from about what you said; as it completely contradicts what NT says. Since when we are just to accept stuff without thinking???
All epistles are a call to learn from the scriptures, to study, to test, to check even yourself whether you really trust God. Far away from what you said.
“To do so is to be guided by the devil..” which you do not believe it exist, so how can we be guided by a spirit that doesn’t exist???
Well, maybe you need a little history. About forty years ago I decided to contemplate the Xtian texts. I bought a Bible, a well known reference one, Schoffield maybe. Anyway I studied it for a couple three years. In the evenings I would listen to a high powered station out of Mexico that played a good number of evangelists. The more I studied, the more I listened, the less it made sense. There were contradictions upon contradictions. Well I thought maybe these guys just didn’t have it right. I found several Xtian radio stations that had well known ministers. These too couldn’t seem to ever deal with questions.
Before all this, I should have mentioned, my Dad was doing contract work and did the job for a local church’s minister’s house. They became somewhat friends, for awhile anyway, and we would discuss matters and a couple of times he became literally Angry because he didn’t have answers. This is the start of where “believers are taught” comes from and continued with every subsequent ministry.
Years later I would watch televangelists mainly for entertainment. Then, a few years ago I came across a local Xtian radio station and listened for awhile. I finally became bored with it. On all these occasions my main interest was to see if anything New would be taught, or anything deeper, or even better explanation. In ALL this time nothing has changed. The same arguments that trace back to the era of Disputations are still the same. In all this time there hasn’t been a single case that I have found where any further Torah knowledge has occurred. The only change is the relationship to the Jewish community. Other than that it is the same.
There may be differences in congregations but all those I was exposed to were exactly the same.
What I said about the devil is its a Xtian idea not found in Judaism.
Eric, you don’t get it. I don’t believe any of those stories. I don’t believe Jesus performed miracles and I don’t believe the Pharisees bothered him.
I look at the big picture as it pertains to my own history: how did the various messages of the gospels affect the fate of the Jewish people throughout history?
The verses that I cited were used by Christians to fuel hatred and to justify the actions that followed from that hatred. It’s disingenuous for you to accuse me of being soaked in a message of hate. I’m trying to open your eyes to the damage your scripture has wreaked upon my people.
You are the one who refuses to actually study the history. I recommended many books that explain what took place and that are not even written by Jews or by people who are hostile to Christianity (with the exception A Moral Reckoning which was written by a secular Jew who is not sympathetic to any religion, all the other books on the list were written by devout Christians or Christian clergymen/theologians).
It’s pointless to have this discussion when you stubbornly insist on remaining ignorant of history. We can’t have an intelligent conversation if you don’t have the facts.
Here is the list again, for brevity’s sake without the subtitles:
Christian Anti-Semitism by William Nicholls
Holy Hatred by Robert Michael
The Anguish of the Jews by Edward Flannery
Constantine’s Sword by James Carroll
A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson
The Origins of Anti-Semitism by John Gager
There’s another strange thing about your references. How many demons were there among all these people. Was it a plague of demons upon the people. This sounds Really really suspicious. Not only that it seems we have a number of “Dead People” lying around. This too sounds suspicious. It’s contrary to Jewish customs.
All these miracles sound all well and good on the surface but when one examines the claims more the more they sound suspicious.
Now, in the context of appealing to a Gentile, non-Jewish audience of that time,Then one can imagine this corresponds to Their belief system. To a Jewish audience it all rings hollow. Maybe that is the reason this theology spread so fast among those Gentiles and very quickly died out among Jews. We do know who the followers of this J’sus weren’t educated. One only has to look who he chose as disciples. For some reason J’sus didn’t want ANYONE who knew their Torah. Another suspicious revelation.
Sharbano, yes, so much suspicion that you create yourself as you hate our scriptures.
P.S And the birds are also not mentioned in the gospels while people were talking outside so I guess the events’ couldn’t have taken place as birds are always a part of outdoors.( and are not mentioned)
What YOU see as hate is nothing but the issues that cannot be resolved. By your contention it would be the Rabbis of the Talmud hated Torah. There’s much in Talmud where the question is asked, Did Rabbi so and so actually say this. The Xtian, on the other hand, want to believe in all their teachings Without question. I cannot count the times I’ve heard that “believers” are Not to question these matters. To do so is to be guided by the devil, which, by the way, is a concept foreign to Judaism, but prevalent in pagan culture.
I have heard Xtian ministers teach and the best it can be described is storytelling. Have you ever been taught a Parsha by a Rabbi. OR, been in a Yeshiva setting. Those who have were astonished and taken aback. They had never seen such a thing. But that IS a part of Jewish culture. This is why you, and others, come to places like here, and become frustrated when your perceptions are not taken as is. From YOUR perspective all is well and good. There is nothing to question. It is as it is.
There is a good analogy. At a time when I would watch movies I had seen one of the Star Trek movies. It is the one where they are searching for Shaka-ri (god). The scene is this entity wants the Starship in order to leave. Well, Kirk in his usual manner, in a Jewish way, asks the question, “Why does ‘god’ need a starship”. In typical fashion, McCoy (like a Xtian), tells Kirk, “You don’t ask ‘god’ for his ID”. This entity asks Kirk, WHO he is. Again, Kirk, asks a question, “Don’t you know, aren’t YOU god”. It is through those question they find Truth. That scene highlights the Jewish approach. THIS is how we determine truth from falsehood. This entity didn’t measure up to the truth and if it’s from G-d it has withstand scrutiny.
Eric We have the book written by Jesus’ followers and we have many books written by the Pharisees. The books written by the followers of Jesus put in some compassionate and humble things about Jesus – but they dehumanize anyone who opposes him. The argument is that if you oppose Jesus that proves that you are a child of darkness, a child of the devil and blind – there is no room for honest debate, there is no respect for the moral requirement to question claims such as those presented by Jesus. The books written by the Pharisees give us a completely different picture than the one we get of the Pharisees from the Christian Scriptures – and the teachings they taught and the lives they inspired were the polar opposite of the hateful cruelty that poured out of the pens of those who revered Jesus and the Christian Scriptures. I challenge you to find one respected Pharisee teacher who spewed as much hate as did John Chrysostom and Martin Luther.
ypfriend, people can use anything against others and twist any innocent text and make it a book of hatred towards anybody they want to. You blame NT , look at OT and see how much is used from there by ignorant people for their evil purposes. Examples; Muslims and their holy wars and killings in the name of God.
Eric So why is it that the Pharisees haven’t produced a Martin Luther or John Chrysostom?
You can say More in One sentence, with a more profound impact, than I can in long paragraphs, one after another.
Sharbano, first of all Christians do not ‘produce’ anybody. You can produce your own philosophy based on the same text and it will still differ from others or original message in the text. Every person’ decisions and actions are their own responsibility. Furthermore Martin Luther started on his own opposing the teachings of so called church fathers and doctrine of Catholic church. He brought back many things into light but still he was not following what Jesus is showing in the gospels. His antisemitism together with others so calling themselves Christians is not a product of Jesus teaching at all.
You measure Christianity based on peoples mistakes not on teaching in the gospels .
Just because a person decided to kill in the name of God it doesn’t make the Bible a false book or a source of evil.
We can ask the same why Abraham produced such people like Muslims believing that by killing jews they go to heaven? Was it what Abraham taught? No! but because they believe in Abraham and added lots of twist and disfiguration of the truth and in their religious book – it doesn’t make Abraham a source of all middle eastern evil.
Here is as example of a story when some of Jesus ‘disciplines suggest Jesus should ask for sending a fire on the town that didn’t repent. What is Jesus answer; ” good idea Peter , go ahead?????”
“And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and REBUKED THEM , and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
For the SON OF MAN IS NOT COME TO DESTROY MEN’S LIVES, BUT TO SAVE THEM . And they went to another village.” lUKE 9;54-56
DOES Jesus TEACHING SOUND LIKE MARTIN LUTHER’S?????
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” Matthew 7;21-23
The problem is you have created a double-standard, one for the Jew, and the other, a sublime one for the Xtian.
Speaking of Islam. It may very well be that They learned their violence From the Xtian. Surely you ARE aware of the Xtian presence in Arabia Before the time of Mohammed.
In any event both those religions lack a true knowledge of Torah. Both religions have a distorted view of it. Take slavery for example. Xtians believed they were following the Bible when they pursued this activity, since it IS an institution in Torah. But neither religion knows what that involves. It’s the same as “eye for an eye”. etc. G-d never intended for the nations to have that knowledge. If that were the case in past times there could be those claiming to be Jewish and no one would know. As it says in Tehillim.
He relates His words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. He did not do so for any other nation such judgements – they know them not.
Your story of James and John also rings of suspicion. It would be unlikely that any observant Jew would have suggested this. I still maintain when a text is written nearly a generation after the events it causes doubts. It would be like Torah was written After Joshua’s death.
Speaking of J’sus though
He did say, Those who are my enemies and will not allow me to reign over them, then slay them in front of me” He sounds quite radical.
Again, the same with Matthew. It was one of the LAST books written. There was an individual, James Tabor, as I recall, who actually did a study on the order of the books. When they are Read in the order written a person will find that Xtian teaching “evolved” over the years.
When it comes to the Hebrew Bible Everything that was written was written contemporaneously.
Sharbano, This is a messianic statement , it should not surprise you ;
‘He did say, Those who are my enemies and will not allow me to reign over them, then slay them in front of me” He sounds quite radical.” Zechariah 14 ; 12
Such ‘ radical action’ will take place at the deliverance of israel at the beginning of messianic kingdom.
Right now all still have time of grace , time to repent before it will be too late. And for now his call was; “pray for your enemies.”
Sharbano ” I forgot to paste it ; Zachariah 14’12 “This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.” Here you have that ‘radical’ sounding judgement you also heard from Jesus. It is relating to those future times.
simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?
“simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”
Eric, you’ve been arguing on this blog and interacting with religious Jews for a very long time. Based on your interactions with us, do you believe that we oppose God? Do you believe we are children of darkness? Is that what you are saying?
It depends upon your meaning of Oppose. If that is in conjunction with questioning then there is a problem.
Eric You may be a wayward child – but you are still a child
ypfriend,
“simple question; the same way ; if you oppose God , you are his child or a child of darkness?”
First you have to be his child to be called his child and you do not stay all the time in your ‘waywardness’ but the Father is waiting for you to repent and come back.
Right, and I would also add this: Eric said that only the Pharisees felt hated. But the real, historical Pharisees did not feel hated; they simply couldn’t care less. The problem began when the rantings of Jesus’s followers against his supposed detractors fell into the hands of gentiles who were already inclined to feel hostile to the Jews. Then these dehumanizing statements were used to fan the flames of hatred into a raging bonfire of anti-Semitism.
And, in addition. During this time he supposedly walked the earth, there were the Tannaim. If the Jewish Sages of those days all had such a hatred for J’sus they certainly would have mentioned something about it. I would think there would be many entries in Tractate Avodah Zarah.
Sharbano, I’d like to expound on your points for Eric.
The chief priests belonged to the Saduccees. The Pharisees and the Saduccees would never have gotten together to confer on anything, as they did not like and distrusted each other.
That’s why Paul’s claim that he worked for the Sadducean high priest yet was a Pharisee is really incredible, as in, not credible (not as in amazing).
Furthermore, if the Pharisees were so full of hate toward Jesus, it is remarkable that they were so self-restrained as to keep any mention of it out of the 3000 pages of the Talmud and later writings. Contrast this with Christian writings beginning with the NT and continuing with the church fathers and down the centuries, who poured their venomous hate of the Jewish people into 1.5 thousand documents (according to Holy Hatred by Robert Michael).
Just google “early church fathers antisemitic” to get a sampling.
The fact is, the Pharisees weren’t self-restrained; they were indifferent. They didn’t have a thought to spare for Jesus because he really wasn’t that famous, well-known, or that big of a deal like the NT would have you believe.
What is remarkable, though, is how little hatred the Pharisaic Jews expressed toward their Christian oppressors several centuries after Jesus when things started to heat up.
sharbano, you mean Jewish ‘paparazzi’ were always present with every conversation Jesus had with a group of jewish leaders? I see… They had no advantage to proclaim all over he was possible Messiah in case somebody would believe. If the leaders themselves wanted the ‘walking evidence’ to be wiped away from this earth, including the resurrected Lazarus there was no reason for anybody to talk about his fame.
Paparazzi?? I don’t see the applicability of that term as its use doesn’t compare to the events of that time.
Maybe there wouldn’t have been all these issues if it weren’t for the church’s decision on what to include and what Not to include. In addition you are looking for understanding in the isolation of just those which are included. As a result you are “assuming” that those ‘leaders’ would want to conceal any evidence and not let it see the light of day. This is another misconception of Jewish Tradition. It just Does NOT work that way. This is why the text is suspicious. What’s recorded in your Xtian text could be argued against, as has been going on here. If there were a fear of people there would have been much written to counter what was taught. Jews don’t use ignorance as a means to an end. Ignorance breeds a falling away. We DO see WHO and the TYPE of people J’sus CHOSE for his followers. THIS, Should, be instructive. Apparently his arguments couldn’t convince the knowledgeable. As it is today. The only recourse was to attribute it to “blindness”. But this is in defiance of Torah.
Dina, Jesus had an encounter with a certain group of pharisees that opposed him in the town he was, not all nation’s ones . So others didn’t have to care.
Yisroel obviously again you don’t know Torah nor the Prophets nor the Psalms
As a Yehudi if you are really one … You failed to bow down to the Lord Messiah which in my book is a grave sin against the will of Elohay
But Psalm 110 reminds you what will happen to all the enemies of the Messiah. In case you forget here it is again:
A saying of YHWH to my Lord,
“Dwell(return) at My right hand,
Untill I set your enemies a footstool to your feet.”
Mr. Lion, concerning Psalms 110, I am confused why you come to the conclusion that the Melchizedek priesthood relates exclusively to jesus/yeshua/yahushuo/yahawishiwashy/whatever…I am not convinced that it refers to jesus/yeshua at all…But I have no problem with it having a Messianic connotation to it as well.
As you acknowledge, you will find in the Talmud that Abraham, King David, and even the Messiah are called as being fulfillments of this Psalm. One of the most striking commonalities between King David and Abraham is that they both “crushed kings” with the help of Hashem. This directly correlates with Psalms 110:5, which explicitly states this:
Psalms 110:5. The Lord, on your right hand, *has crushed kings* on the day of His wrath.
Now Mr. Shapira, during jesus’s/yeshua’s lifetime, did jesus “crush kings”? Was he successful in defeating his enemies? Were his enemies “made a footstool at his feet”? (Psalms 110:1) Clearly not! Your jesus/yeshua was killed and failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies outlined in the Tanach. As it stands, jesus has fulfilled none of Psalms 110 in any tangible sense. You can argue that he will fulfill it in his supposed “second coming,” but to claim that jesus has fulfilled any of this Psalm would be completely baseless as it stands…
Another oddity about your understanding about this “Melchizedek priesthood” is that you believe that jesus’s/yeshua’s bloodshed “atoned for the sins of the world.” Where in the Tanach does it state that the Melchizedek priesthood achieves atonement via the blood sacrifice? The only priesthood that was given this divine instruction that I know of was the Levitical priesthood…If you could find a passage in the Tanach which states that the “Melchizedek priesthood” achieves atonement via “blood sacrifice,” then maybe your position would make a little more sense. But as it stands, you appear to be baselessly asserting that this Melchizedek priesthood has “superior atoning power” in comparison to the Levitical priesthood, when there is nothing in the Tanach that indicates that the Melchizedek priesthood deals with blood atonement at all! I hope you will consider these concerns.
Shalom
Dina,
You wrote:
“…why do the Christians on this blog constantly bring up the past sins of the Jewish people, from which they themselves didn’t even suffer?”
My response:
Haven’t you figured out by now that I (and probably others like me) are merely responding to the self righteous hypocrisy, slander, predjudice, anti-Christianism hate propaganda, error and sometimes outright unsupportable lies written by you? And it is mostly you by the way, not others.
Have you ever seen me for example just start out for no reason with comments pointing out faults of Judaism out of the blue? No you haven’t. It’s always been you or those who behave like you (but usually you) that have made some statement in which I’ve responded showing the hypocritical nature, or prejudicial nature, or error, etc. And my reply’s (usually based on Hebrew Scripture) to your anti-Christian comments are always related to prejudice I’m countering (such as for example your latest venture into the “obsession” (your term) Christians have with life in the age to come in which they are “restricting” people from entering whereas Judaism does not (according to you)).
And haven’t you noticed that when I do this, you’re always surprised and offended that I don’t just accept your trash talk? Then you act like the offended one, demanding an apology because I bring up facts of the Hebrew Bible which you are uncomfortable with.
You want to just spew forth your hate speech unencumbered by the reality of the facts as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. So then you try to portray me as the instigator when in reality it is you who starts.
Easily over half of all of your comments are of an anit-Christianism agenda.
So it’s time to look in the mirror (which you despise I know), but how is your anti-Christian writing any different than anti-Semitic writing from extremist Christians? What gives you the right to spew hate speech against Christians and then condemn me and others for fighting back with the facts of your own hypocrisy?
David,
This is not an argument; it’s a character assault. I presented arguments backed by either Biblical citation, historical evidence, or reason, or all three in some cases. I presented statements that you made that you failed to similarly substantiate.
Everyone knows that when you are losing a debate you attack your opponent’s character.
You don’t like the subject matter, and that is fine with me. But you also don’t have a response, and guess what? That is just fine with me, too.
Yisroel,
You wrote:
The Jewish Bible was never meant for the gentile to read so as to be able to condemn God’s witness.
My response:
Really, then what makes you think the NT was written for Jews to condemn God’s witness?
David
No one is reading the Christian Bible to condemn Christians – we are reading the Christian Bible to show you how it encourages you to dehumanize those who disagree with you
Which is what David has done do me: paint me as a dishonest, hateful, bigoted, twisted, and evil person so he can dismiss my arguments. It absolves him of the moral duty to actually look at the substance of what I am saying.
I do think what governs many in the Xtian world is the part where Jews supposedly say, “upon us and our children”. This is used as an indictment against succeeding generations of Jews. Anyone who doesn’t admit this is the case is fabricating a deceit. There are just too many in too many walks of Xtianity that see these words, and all the ills Jews suffer, as being at the root. And another point, if many of these Xtians were to actually “admit” persecution ‘By the church’, by real Xtians, it would expose their Own anti-Semitism that lies just below the surface. In these times it’s just Not fashionable. It wasn’t fashionable at one time in Germany either, but when it Became fashionable virtually everyone joined the party. After the Shoah it was no longer in vogue to be against Jews in any form. All one has to do is look where we were, Then, and where we are, Now. It has once again Become fashionable in many, many places. As it was in past times, when it becomes fashionable and in vogue, there will be many who will join the party. Many times it begins with those who are the most pious. As R’ Singer puts it so well, messiah cannot, or will not come until the Jews recognize “him”. Since the Jews aren’t doing their part they are “holding up the show”. They will not wait forever for their party to start. THEN what will be the reactions by “real Xtians”.
Moses doesn’t get angry at them
That’s the whole reason he was prevented from entering the Promised Land.
Sorry to but in but I thought it was because he struck a rock instead of talking to it.
Larry B,
Actually Moses got angry with the people; he struck the rock in his anger and in doing so didn’t maintain God as holy before the people for which he was punish.
Regarding his anger on other occasions:
He also smashed the stone tablets at the foot of the mountain in his anger and organized a killing by sword within the camp to punish those in the golden calf incident.
And in Numbers 16 Moses in his anger petitioned God not to listen to those standing against him, and said “Pay no attention to their offering.”
David
I looked at the scripture in my book and nowhere does it say that Moses was angry.
It does say the crowd wasn’t very happy. If I remember correctly previously Moses was commanded to strike the rock, this time he was told to speak to the rock. Why was he told to speak to he rock? The people were about to enter the promised land.
Did it ever occur to you that he crushed the tablets so Israel wouldn’t worship the tablets as a relic?
Con you are becoming more extreme. Moseh broke the tablets because carnal Israel prostituted themselves with a golden calf. Imagine a beast being worshipped like the Hindus. They broke the Covenant in a preemptive manner so Moseh full of zeal broke the tablets as a sign the New Covenant was being broken from the on-start…delaying therefore any union from the Elohim with the people…Stiff necked people used to their bondage and the pagan influences would have to earn by the hard way to obey, love and be faithful…
Eliyahu You contradicted yourself (or should I say – your “ruah holy” contradicted itself. Either admit that you made a mistake or recognize that you can’t begin to expect to be taken seriously
You apparently haven’t actually studied those events. As with most in Xtian circles you have made assumptions, possibly based on Hollywood and its complete distortion of events. But this is typical of that industry.
By the way, why do you look to the Jews to tell what your obligations are to God when they postdate the Noahides?
The fact that you even have to ask this question Eric shows how off the path you are man. The only reason you even know about noachides, or the Ger, (righteous non Jews) is by reading the Hebrew Bible, the Torah of Moses. The whole context of the written bible, (the very time frame and historical period when it was given to the people of Israel Genesis-Deuteronomy in writing) is during the Sinai covenant where Israel was commanded to observe the statutes in all generations. There was no written Torah before Sinai, no recorded history of Abraham before the Torah was given.
Eric, what lies? Yes, your new testament claims Jesus is the word of G-d. (John 1:1) that he rose from death, etc. but your revelation chapter 13 proves that even FALSE TEACHERS AND MESSIAHS CLAIM THIS TOO! THIS PROVES ITS NOT A TRUSTWORTHY CLAIM IN AND OF ITSELF. Not just your text (revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians,) but your classical Christian theologians say this, and history proves it. Men want to be considered as though they are G-d himself and want other beings to serve them. Therefore the reason I don’t believe in your book is because the Torah contradicts that idea outright. Human beings (in appearance) or in reality ARE NOT G-d. A miracle proves nothing!
Why do I trust the Jews? Because it is their bible, it is their historical chronicle, they are the ones entrusted with the Torah and its observance, the covenant, and the law. Your apostles say the Torah points to Christ, therefore we can test that assertion from Torah. Torah is not pointing to your Jesus or to Christianity, so its rejected.
{Why do I trust the Jews? Because it is their bible, it is their historical chronicle, they are the ones entrusted with the Torah and its observance, the covenant, and the law. Your apostles say the Torah points to Christ, therefore we can test that assertion from Torah. Torah is not pointing to your Jesus or to Christianity, so its rejected.}
The answer is in Psalms 147
He relates His Words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. He did not do so for any other nation; such judgments – they KNOW THEM NOT.
Then you of all people who put emphasis on the Torah should take your direction from the Torah and not non-scriptural commentary which adds significantly to the Torah’s Noahide reference for your guidance.
Hey David, what do these verses mean to you? Numbers 11:16-17 Exodus 18:25-26 Deuteronmy 17:9-13 Nehemiah 8:8
What do you make of these verses ESPECIALLY in light of Mathew 23:1-3?
Then Jesus said to the CROWDS (who may not have followed him) and TO HIS DISCIPLES : 2 “The teachers of the law and the PHARISEES sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4
The Torah tells you that G-d himself gave some of Moses’ spirit in judgement to the judges, and that they should be followed.
Sorry, David* typo
It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.
Extrapolation? You mean from verses like the following.
And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: AND ALL THE WORLD WANDERED AFTER THE BEAST. (Christian commentaries say kingdoms/kings are interchangeable in this chapter.)
4 And they WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON which gave power unto the beast: and they WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking GREAT THINGS and BLASPHEMIES; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
What blasphemies against G-d will this beast utter? According to 2 Thessalnians 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he “AS God” sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that “he is God.”
Daniel tells us about a false leader too. Daniel 7:25 “He will speak against the Most High and OPPRESS his holy people and try to change the SET TIMES and THE LAWS. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.”
Do tell me how this is an extrapolation. There is no warning about people claiming to be deity? Are you nuts? ITS RIGHT THERE! Just read it!
C.R.,
#1
You are responding to something I didn’t write as if I wrote it. At best that is a straw-man and at worst you are being deceitful.
My actual post is copied below at the bottom of this post. As you can plainly see it says nothing about Paul and 2 Thessalonians. My post copied below is a response to your rant specifically against the book of Revelations which you falsely claim is a warning against one who claims to be God which was actually just a side issue for me. In any case, you didn’t address your baseless attack on Revelation which I exposed.
#2
The character in Daniel does not claim to be God.
Furthermore, are you now using the NT (2 Thessalonians in this case) to provide an interpretation for the Hebrew Scriptures as in Daniel as if you are a Christian? If not then why are you attempting to do so? Why are you using writings which you don’t even believe in to interpret that which you do? What makes you think you have judged either correctly?
Put up the verse in Daniel which claims to be God. The second problem was that it has to relate to one of your claimed Messiahs which you claim are no different than the mainstream Christian claim for Jesus.
#3
The prince/king of Tyre is a prophesy of Ezekiel regarding a future King of Tyre. It is not a prophesy of the Jewish Messiah or prophesy of a prophet who claims to be God.
The challenge was in response to your wild claim that there were (I believe you said somewhere at some point thousands) false Messiahs who claimed to be God.
Good effort though. Keep trying.
Here is my post that you were feigning a response to but didn’t actually.
“C.R,
Name one that was a contemporary of Jesus prior to AD 70 that was “deified.”
And as you know, Jesus himself was not “deified” until centuries later.
By the way while we’re on the subject of deification, your claims against the book of Revelation are without merit in that there is no warning against claimed deities. Rather there is a warnings pertaining to the anti-Christ. It’s your own twisting that extrapolates a deity warning.”
What about G-d’s warning to the Prince of tyre who claims he is a divinity?
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes Epiphanes: “god manifest.” Look at the coin. It’s Antiochus as ZEUS! Your saying the books don’t warn against deity claims? HA HA HA
I’m only quoting Your NT books (and the historic Christian Church interpretations of texts like Daniel and these other books by these Christians themselves,) because they warn people about people who make claims to deity. They only make the one exception to this claim in Jesus’ case, ie it’s ok for Jesus to claim deity, but nobody else can. I am showing that MOST Christians are being inconsistent in judgement on this issue because the Torah itself says NOBODY No person WHO IS A HUMAN IS G-d IN ANY SENSE. Nobody in Daniel claims divinity? Umm, the King does? Also, he tries to worship Daniel, even whilst he acknowledges that HASHEM is the true G-d.
I realize David, that you are a Unitarian, (so you reinterpret or read the NT differently) but that is irrelevant in this case because the majority of Jesus followers, and the historic Church commentators of early centuries are not Unitarian. They teach Jesus is divine. Even Unitarians violate Torah when they say that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY. That is in direct contradiction to what the Torah teaches.
Hello CR
Just seen this one. You say King Nebuchadnezzer claims divinity, can you help me with this one.
Thanks
Sure Paul. To answer your question, Isaiah 13:4 And you shall bear this parable against the KING OF BABYLON, and you shall say, “How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one! דוְנָשָׂאתָ הַמָּשָׁל הַזֶּה עַל מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל וְאָמָרְתָּ אֵיךְ שָׁבַת נֹגֵשׂ שָׁבְתָה מַדְהֵבָה:
Verses 12-13 are part of this parable brought against the king of Babylon.
12How have you fallen from heaven, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. יבאֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם הֵילֵל בֶּן שָּׁחַר נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ חוֹלֵשׁ עַל גּוֹיִם:
the morning star: This is Venus, which gives light as the morning star, הֵילֵל being derived from יהל, to shed light. This is the lamentation over the heavenly prince of Babylon, who will fall from heaven.
You have been cut down to earth: You, Nebuchadnezzar, who would cast lots on nations. You would cast lots on them, on the kings, who of them would serve you on such and such a day, and who on such and such a day. Our Rabbis, however, expounded this to mean that he would cast lots on the kings for purposes of pederasty.
13And you said to yourself, ‘To the heavens will I ascend, above God’s stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north. יגוְאַתָּה אָמַרְתָּ בִּלְבָבְךָ הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶעֱלֶה מִמַּעַל לְכוֹכְבֵי אֵל אָרִים כִּסְאִי וְאֵשֵׁב בְּהַר מוֹעֵד בְּיַרְכְּתֵי צָפוֹן:
above the stars of God: Israel.
on the mount of the assembly: The mount where all assemble, i.e., Mount Zion.
in the farthest end of the north: In the forecourt, the chosen place, the north side, as the matter is stated (Lev. 1:11): “On the side of the altar to the north.”
I know that In Christian tradition these verses have been traditionally allegorized as referring to Satan as “the morning star who fell from heaven” for setting himself in G-d’s place, wanting G-d’s throne. In Judaism, you go by the plain sense of the verses just as much which clearly says this message is a parable “against the king of Babylon.” When coupled with the verses in Ezekiel outlining G-d’s warnings against the Prince of Tyre for the same behavior, we can know it as a bad untrustworthy thing when people claim to sit in G-d’s place ie to claim divinity to be served by others. I also think these are texts where an antichrist tradition forms in Christianity.
David, we don’t know of People (other than Jesus’ followers, and possibly the mandeans, a sect that venerated John the Baptist in the 2nd century) who viewed their founders as divine, but it is a matter of historical record that they do. After Jesus however, there are a couple of examples of messiah claimants who came dangerously close to deification. The followers of Jacob Frank venerated his daughter I believe? The Lubavitcher rebbe has been deified by a couple of crazies, etc. the point I’m making, is that these types of venerations and deification are foreign, and anti Torah. You would like Jews to embrace Jesus the man, but you can’t seperate him from the theology built around him. You want us to find the fresh apple in the rotten barrel. We will stick with what we know to be true in the plain sense, Torah.
“and he doesn’t tell me to bring a sword to anybody’s neck because they do not believe.”
Actually Eric, Jesus DOES IN FACT TELL YOU TO EMPLOY VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT HIS MESSAGE.
Luke 19:27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
This verse has been used by Christian groups throughout history to advocate pogroms against Jews and to persecute minority Christian groups, from the earliest days, even now. You would have to be truly blind to Christian history to say otherwise. If you say “those weren’t real Christians,” please show me the real Christian who actually lives like Jesus did day to day.
I’ll wager you cant find one. The only people you can find who live as he did are Jew who DONT AND WONT believe in him.
Of what use is your faith when all the good Christians are invisible being surrounded by false ones?
Con, you really have no clue about NT . Your interpretations are no different than picked by someone who reads the words but doesn’t know what they relate to.
“Actually Eric, Jesus DOES IN FACT TELL YOU TO EMPLOY VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT HIS MESSAGE.Luke 19:27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
The words you quoted relate to the messianic times where the king is dealing with all who oppose him that includes Israels enemy. Jesus refers that message to what you read in the last chapters of Zechariah.
You have to read v27 in conjunction with v14. Those two together make them valid in that present time. V13 sets the time as their time. It’s v15 that starts the future time. THIS is how parables work.
Sharbano, was any single person killed in the eyes of jesus because he commanded such thing to anybody? NO. He doesn’t contradict his words. He said he didn’t come to condemn the world but save it. No single event of anybody being killed, but him !
Those who do not chose salvation , they will have their condemnation in the future. Now is time of grace , later time of judgement. That judgement will face all who oppose God. This is what his words relate to. Read all what he said.
Didn’t Jsus say he didn’t come to bring peace, but the sword, family members against each other.
Sharbano,That’s how he brought ‘sword’ ; those who will come to God will be always persecuted by those who deny God. And that happened with persecution of the first Christians. Even wanting to bring peace there will be no peace as there will be always those who will be bothered by your faith with God. ( until the messianic times)
Eric,
You wrote: “That judgement will face all who oppose God.”
Who is included in those who oppose God? Will all non-Christians face that judgment in your view?
We have shown you that the Hebrew Bible maps out a complete path to repentance, righteousness, and God without any clear teachings for any other type of worship. Therefore, are Jews who follow this path opposed to God?
What about Muslims who live moral lives and love Allah? Are they opposed to God?
Dina, I am leaving the judgement to God. I am not His spokesman who know all his decisions who is damned who not! Even the evil one might turn back to God at the end and end up as a righteous one. Or the righteous one turn back from God and end up as a damned. But God appointed His day in which He will judge all unrighteousness. I will get you all the links later when I have time. I have it somewhere in my documents.
Sharbano, For your better understanding Luke 19;11-27 why is this parable relating to messianic future and not a call to violence? It talks about return of the king who will rule over people. ( the Messiah) Return proceeded by God’s judgement so called the Day of the Lord.
There are verses BEFORE the king leaves. That is in Jsus time.
Sharbano, he king leaves and comes back. Jesus left and is coming back.
You ignored the salient point. As I said, there is A Part that is BEFORE the king leaves. THIS is what You are ignoring.
Sharbano, Can you be more specific in what you want to tell me?? In v 13 kings servants are entrusted with some responsibility till the kings return but some reject it and no not care to serve their king v.14 . Then the verses are talking about kings return and rewards and punishment. What don’t you understand?
I really wish people would actually read what is written. What did I say that “Joined” the present with the future. This is the point that Xtians always overlook.
Sharbano, ow you are really creating a story! You can’t say what is the matter but put some words that mean nothing. Can’t you face a simple parable???? ‘ a king
A) entrusts people with something,
b) leaves
c) comes back and judges them
What is your problem?????????????????
Go back and read the original comment.
Actually Eric, I was baptized into the Church at age seven, I went to Church from that age until I went off to college and got my degrees in comparative religions and also another in history, which included extensive studies in Church history, theology, and practice. So, yes, I do in fact know a great deal about what your NT says, and what Christians of various sorts believe and believed. I further know the impact that this religion has had on world history, both good and bad.
The point I was trying to make with quoting Luke 19:27 is that it doesn’t matter what time period that verse actually refers to, messianic period, or our time today. The point is that Jesus in the NT says this, and various Christian groups throughout history have drawn inspiration from that verse in order to do great violence to Christendom’s perceived enemies, Jews and non Jews.
People who perpetuate violence and hate others seldom care about the true context and proper understanding of a verse. My point was, its not good that this verse is present in the NT at all!
Protestants and Catholics both applied Luke 19:27 to justify their persecution of each others groups during the reformation, and all historic Christian groups applied that verse in justification for harming Jews, burning Talmuds, instigating pogroms, etc. Christians in the middle ages (down into the 1960s) celebrated passion plays where Jews as a people were blamed (collectively) for Jesus’ death. Mobs of angry Christians would then go hurt Jews after seeing passion plays and being filled with zeal. Its in Church history, look it up, I’m not lying to you. By telling me I’m ignoring the verse’s context you miss the point I made.
If there is a verse found in ANY religion’s text that says GO KILL X GROUP OF PEOPLE, it is a dangerous text simply for that reason. The original context may have been a suitable occasion to say GO KILL X group, but when later generations take that verse and run with it, and interpret it, strip its context, etc. it can become a dangerous text regardless of what anyone says it “really means,” or what the original author’s intent really was.
Con, “People who perpetuate violence and hate others seldom care about the true context and proper understanding of a verse. My point was, its not good that this verse is present in the NT at all! (…)If there is a verse found in ANY religion’s text that says it is a dangerous text simply for that reason. ”
Yes, I understand your point , but don’t you think God is aware of people taking any ‘piece of a information’ and using it supporting their evil actions ? You said ; that verse in Luke shouldn’t be in NT. People misused it completely but you do not realize OT also carries a message that can be misused and still God put it there; “GO KILL X GROUP OF PEOPLE,’ is also in relation to holy wars in OT.
Isn’t it interesting that in These times, post Shoah, many Xtians refer to all those who perpetrated such acts were not real adherents to the religion, And, by the same token the Xtian text doesn’t, or didn’t spur this along. It wasn’t merely the Leaders of the religion who were guilty of such crimes, but the individuals and whole communities who were complicit in those acts. All of a sudden, in This generation, the followers of the religion have exonerated themselves of any guilt. They are the new and improved generation. What if a man arrives on the scene and has Israel, as a nation, follow all Torah laws and requires the nations to do the same. In This framework he is called Mashiach, and tells the Xtians the Jews were right all along and has them give up their Jsus. How will these Xtians of the modern generation react. Will they see him as Mashiach or an antichrist and seek his demise. Will they go against Him and G-d, or accept him and seek relations with the Jewish State.
Some years ago I heard of a game that was set in times of Armageddon and it had Xtians killing off those who were “unbelievers”, especially Jews who would refuse to follow a character that was king. When it comes to religion it doesn’t take much for one to turn to a form of cleansing. The more a person is invested in a “belief” the easier the cleansing.
Con, I forgot to mention ; stoning was one of the punishments in the OT times. Do you realize how many people terribly misuse it in the Middle East and how many crimes are done on simply innocent people who have no rights and are stoned to death for stupid or made up reasons?
So if we go by’ none of the things like that’ should have been in NT we would have to cut out much more. And even if there was no killing mentioned anywhere, evil would still find it;’s ways to misuse anything God said and use it for it’s evil purposes.
As it is with Islam so it was with Xtianity. Since neither had the knowledge of Torah guidelines they took it upon themselves to define it. Such it is with stoning, or the way Xtianity implemented slavery. They both “assume” they understood Torah but neither did.
Hi Con!
In the History of Israel and the Church they were period of violence. Actually in the Tanakh we see it clearly for it is written in the Holy Book. The Church when it grew stronger in number got caught in the 4th century with the political powers and seductions of power and money corrupting the leaders like in the Time of Judah and Israel when they started to have confidence in mammom instead of God.
Therefore let us be honest here and not play the accusation game. We must always act with a repentant heart and seek the will of God having always confidence in Him like little chidren in the arms of their parents.
Peace and blessings!
Christian Paul, its not merely “an accusation game” at all, its the historical truth! Even a modern film like the passion of the Christ portrays Jewish people as villains, and that rhetoric has a real world impact on how people today perceive and treat Jewish people. In many ways the violence people perpetuate is subconscious, and is due to misunderstanding, but its there. I’m not saying that only Christians have done bad things, but I am saying Christians alone are the ones who are responsible for the various actions done in the name of their religion and sacred texts!
You can’t just side step all the corruption and historic violence in the Church as “not real Christianity,” because the NT has had this very real negative impact in world history. In many ways, its irrelevant what the original intention of that first group of Jews who followed Jesus was, or what beautiful interpretation you can offer of the NT text. If only one person understands the text in the proper way, that doesn’t make it a good, especially since so many people tend to do evil and rash things with it.
Hi Con!
Honesty is the key here if we can humble ourselves. I am willing to accept your argument if they are just. I have posted violence in the History and recognized the abuses of Christianity but you did not address in the Tanakh the violence that was made also. You put it aside may be justified by the fact it is sacred violence… I do not know. Can you explain please for the sake of truth. Thank you in advance!
Peace and blessings!
Hi Paul, can you specify what you are talking about when you say violence in the Tanakh?
Hi Saul!
First I will appreciate to be called Christian not Paul. Do I call you Hi Goodman? Thank you!
N.B.: This is my second time that I bring that to your attention.
Peace and blessings!
I apologize, i didn’t see where you told me this before but ok.
But can you answer please?
Hey CP,
Here’s a multiple choice question for you:
Which is your preferred spelling for Jesus’s name?
A. Jesus
B. Yeshua
C. Yahshuo
D. Yahushuo
E. Yahushuoaoao
F. Yahawishiwashy
G. Jeezer
H. All of the above
I. None of the above
J. Other _________
I am very curious to get your answer. Thanks!
CP,
You wrote: “Honesty is the key here if we can humble ourselves.”
Are you humble?
Christian Paul
Its important to realize that the Torah as a text is a book that contains both holiness and self criticism, (including examples of very bad behavior, even from the moral greats of the text.) In a way, the Torah stands at the vantage point of amorality, having great potential for both good and bad for those who read it.
So, not everything in it has a moral justification for all time in all situations. For example, we would all say the that Torah truly says that “David was a man after G-D’s own heart.” We wouldn’t ever say however that because David was loved by G-d that David’s sins of adultery and murder were somehow also justified, or loved by G-d right?
The commandment to blot out Amalek is likewise not a blanket justification for killing an entire population of people. The Torah teaches what is good, as well as what is not good. “See I have set before you life and good, death and evil.” Deuteronomy 30:15.
A community and its sacred text bear responsibility for both the good and the bad done in its name, anything that comes about due to its existence. The Torah is an exercise in sharpening of character, not a blanket allowance, or a blanket condemnation of a given action. There are laws in Torah after all, that apply only to Jews, laws that apply only to gentiles, laws that apply only to women, etc. So, as an example, is it immoral for a gentile to eat pork? No, because he isn’t enjoined to observe that commandment.
Hi Con, Dina and Saul! Peace to you!
First Con thank you for your response. I find that you are always prompt to respond and it is interesting.
Saul I am responding to your post in the same time for I was thinking about the injunction from YHWH to exterminate Amalek that Saul did not obey and therefore was rejected by the Elohim. Con brought it and let us if you may take this example.
Amalek extermination that is called sacred violence for it comes from God, therefore could in Modern history something like this happen in the name of God like some Muslim do in the Middle East. How can we know that those injunction are from God when it apparently goes against the Torah ‘you shalt not kill’ Can we kill our enemies therefore as being an exception to the rule?
Thank you!
P.S.: Dina you have two different questions:
1) I do not understand why multiple choices in the border of ridicule and lack of respect for the name of the Messiah? I just know like all human beings that is Hebrew name is written like in the first book of the Prophets: יהושוע
2)You asked me if I am humble. Why this question are you concerned for my soul or did I showed signs of pride. Please correct me if you saw something. Thank you! Now my life my soul my everything comes from YHWH and I praise, thank and worship Him. For i am nothing and He is everything. Bless be His Holy Name now and forever!
Peace and blessings!
CP, if you knew Hebrew, you would know that the Torah does not say “You shall not kill” (לא תהרג) but “You shall not murder” (לא תרצח) which renders your argument silly, forgive me for saying so. If you really want to know what the Torah teaches, you should learn some Hebrew. (This will also prevent you from making that astonishingly foolish statement that in effect implies that God contradicted Himself.)
Also, I think it’s strange for you to question God’s commands, unless you do not believe the Torah to be true. And if the Torah isn’t true, then Judaism isn’t true. And no Judaism = no Christianity.
I would like to know how you spell Jesus’s name in English. Why do you refuse to do that? It’s a pretty simple and straightforward question.
I asked if you were humble because you keep telling everyone else to stay away from pride in order to be honest. Do you think you are humble enough to be as honest as you keep telling everyone else to be? I think that’s a fair question.
Also, CP, what is your native tongue and what other languages do you speak? Thanks you.
So basically, you are saying that killing on God’s order is the same as killing…. Not on God’s order? Are you serious here?
This is so silly. Now you are putting God’s orders on the same level of legitimacy as Man’s orders. This is an atheistic position. This is a denial of God’s sovereignty, and equating Man to the same level as God.
Hi Dina!
Thank you for the correction. I should surely learn to be more precise. Now I see the difference between killing and murdering. Now is the ultra-orthodox person in Israel was allowed by the Torah to take the life of some gay people? Is it a kill or a murder?
Also can I ask you why do you ask me my mother tongue? Do I ask you personal question? Is it relevant to the discussion? Thank you!
Three other points: 1)the name of the Messiah translated in other tongues depend of each tongue way of pronunciation. In Spanish, Jesus would equal Chesou in English. From the Hebrew יהושוע would make YHUSHUA in English
2) I do not think that God contradict Himself I am trying to show that violence can be holy if it is ordered by God and my question was … How can we know that the order comes from God? It is humans that contradict God not God who contradicts Himself. Sometimes we humans think that we understand God but it is more our ego that we are understanding…
Amalek problem is a real issue. Could you think that it can happen in our days?
3) Dina when I say to stay away from pride I certainly include me first. It is a duty to correct each other for the better good. I hope I am not mistaken when I say that. And I even ask you to correct me if I am deluding myself in that matter. Thank you in advance!
Peace and blessings!
Hi CP,
“Now I see the difference between killing and murdering. Now is the ultra-orthodox person in Israel was allowed by the Torah to take the life of some gay people? Is it a kill or a murder?”
Obviously, if you had to ask that question, you don’t see the difference between killing and murdering. Beside for learning some Hebrew, maybe you should learn some English too.
“Also can I ask you why do you ask me my mother tongue? Do I ask you personal question?”
I think you know perfectly well why I am asking you, but really, CP, since when is asking someone what language they speak a personal question? Here is an example of a personal question: “Do you get along with your wife?” But “what language do you speak?” is not a personal question.
Why on earth do you not want to answer that question? I would have no problem answering similar questions from you.
So tell me, mon cher monsieur, what is your native tongue? And what other languages do you speak?
Thank you for answering my question about the spelling of the name of your false god. However, your transliteration of יהושוע is incorrect. It is more correct to spell it Yehoshua, which is Hebrew for Joshua, not Jesus.
Maybe you need to sort out the names for your deity first, before you answer that question.
“I do not think that God contradict Himself I am trying to show that violence can be holy if it is ordered by God and my question was … How can we know that the order comes from God?”
Do you believe the Torah is true? God ordered the killing of Amalek and the nations of the land of Canaan in the Torah. That’s how we know the order came from God. So do you believe the Torah is true, or do you not believe the Torah is true? If you answer yes, then you should not need to even ask that question. If you answer no, then you should not be a Christian, because if the Torah is false, then so is Christianity for sure.
“Amalek problem is a real issue. Could you think that it can happen in our days?”
It cannot happen for two reasons: one, we are not a sovereign people with a Holy Temple and so do not have the power to carry out this commandment; and two, we cannot identify who is Amalek.
Are you seriously worried? When was the last time the Jewish people carried out genocide? Can you find any incident more recent than 3000 years ago? Silly willy CP!
About pride, I am glad to hear you include yourself in your rebuke. I would still like to know if you believe pride is worse in a woman than in a man.
To recap, here is a list of my questions:
1. Can you sort out your man-god’s name and spell it in English?
2. What is your native tongue and what other languages do you speak?
3. Do you believe the Torah is true, and if so, then all commands in the Torah emanate from God?
4. Are you afraid of murderous violence from Jews? Do you believe it is one of the problems plaguing the world today?
Peace and blessings to you too! J’espère que tu répondras bientôt.
Hi Dina! Peace to you and many blessings!
1) I feel that you have a lot of prejudices against Christians calling them all Protestants. That is very unjust. Orthodox Christians are not what you think. I hope you will seek and learn before judging prematurely. Thank you!
2) My mother tongue is personal for if I tell it to you, you will again prejudge like you did with Christians. It starts with “L” or “A” depending on how do you see it.
3) During Second World War more than 20 millions Russian Orthodox Christian were killed (murdered) by Stalin the atheist guy a freemason. Then of course I can feel the pain of 6 millions of my brothers Jews who were killed also by the monster.
4) a)The Messiah was not English in Hebrew the name is clear יהושוע which would transliterate to Y’HUSHUA or Y’HOSHUA who gave us the modern Joshua
b) The Holy Name of the Elohim is YHWH which you will not pronounce. The Messiah is our Salvation is name reflects that YHWH is the One who saves…
5) Concerning humility I think that women are generally more humble than men. For my part I hope to be in humility and truth and may YHWH preserves me of that awful sin. And please pray for me a sinner that I always do the will of the Eternal One.
Shalom!
What is your basis for saying Hashem is the “Holy Name” for Elokim.
We have already discussed the Reason for not pronouncing the Name and it is Based in Torah.
A mother tongue is “Personal”?, causing someone to “prejudge”?
Now that Really sounds suspicious.
Hi CP,
This conversation is getting delightfully silly and entertaining. I hope you are enjoying it as much as I.
“I feel that you have a lot of prejudices against Christians calling them all Protestants.”
First, I never called all Christians Protestants. That is a lie. I do have a prejudice against liars. I should warn you about that. It’s a mean, nasty prejudice.
Second, you reveal your own prejudice against Protestants. I don’t care about particular denominations, and I am not anti any Christian sect per se (I am anti falsehood and idolatry). So you are revealing yourself to be an intolerant religious bigot. Such touching Christian love for your own brethren!
“Then of course I can feel the pain of 6 millions of my brothers Jews who were killed also by the monster.”
I did not ask you if you can feel the pain of the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust. You need to read more carefully. What did I ask you, CP? Can you answer that question? Do you dare?
“My mother tongue is personal for if I tell it to you, you will again prejudge like you did with Christians.”
How do you prejudge someone on the basis of their spoken language? I did not know that was possible. Unlike you, I do not judge people based on their gender, color of their skin, race, or religion. I judge them on the content of their character (to paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr.).
So what are you really afraid of, CP? Why are you afraid to tell the truth? Are you really scared of the judgment of big, bad, scary Dina? Or is there another more sinister reason?
(Cue the dramatic music.)
“The Messiah was not English in Hebrew the name is clear etc.”
Since you spell his name differently in different places and refer to him in different ways, you should just sort it all out. Is it Yeshua? Y’hooshooah? Yahooshooeee? Do you happen to have a preference for Yahushuo? That seemed to be a favorite of yours in a different incarnation.
“Concerning humility I think that women are generally more humble than men.”
Again, I did not ask if you think women are more humble than men (which is interesting, by the way. Really? On what basis do you make that judgment?) I asked you if pride is worse in a woman than in a man. Are you capable of reading? Or do you prefer to answer the questions you wished I had asked rather than the ones I actually did ask?
CP,
“And please pray for me a sinner that I always do the will of the Eternal One.”
It is against the will of the Eternal One to worship anyone else. If you want to His will, obey Him at once, abandon your Jesus idol, and turn to Him alone. I pray that you learn to be honest and self-aware, for that is the first step to being able to be a better person.
@Dina
Je ne pense pas qu’il répondra 😉
Lol, Saul! It’s cool that you speak French. I studied it in high school and college, but sadly haven’t used it in about 20 years, alors j’ai oublié la plupart du français que j’ai appris. My spelling and grammar are probably horrible. But I do love that language.
Anyway, I have a specific reason for using French phrases here. I hope that it will become clear pretty soon, but if not, then I will explain :).
Haha Dina, yes, french is a lovely language. Omelette de fromage! lol
Hello CR
You are correct that films or talk that implies a under current of biased views do generate hate and violence, in this context the Jewish hate compaign.
I am in no way stating this has not happened. It has, with massive and unforgettable horrors. But the antisemitic voices and the ears that recieve and believe the antisemitism, are just that, antisemitic. They simply do not understand the word of God, and have absolutely no idea of the written word, especially here, in regard to the Jews and the promised land.
I would also add that the whole of the bible has been used against the children of Israel, not just the NT by itself. Any scripture can be turned upside down and used incorrectly if one has an hidden agenda. Any writing given over into the wrong hands can be fatal.
The nazis did this, using OT.
Because the bible has been used incorrectly, the act of sin doesn’t devalue the original texts as they were intended. Its only sinful man that kills, not the holy word.
I find it a little odd that you state the original text is irrelevant? I would counter that statement, and I will put the ball back into your court……….
……… It seems like you are admitting that the original text are pro semitic ( which they are), but you are now dismissing them, based on the perversed nature on which they were intended.
The negative impact, which yes, has impacted the Jews massively, has also brought thousands of Jews to Christ in faith, faith that is, not forced into.
Personally, before I became a believer in Christ I watched The film, The passion of the Christ. I didn’t see the Jews as evil. I didnt go on some pogrom. I just felt sad at the whole affair. Having said that I do understand that in history past, RC priests would use lent and the build up to easter as an opportunity to go Jew bashing. Thats wrong, evil etc etc, which I hate. Again its how one is internally which acts so wickedly, not the teachings of Jesus the Jew.
Even if the verses in the NT that call Jews “children of the Devil,” etc. could be radically reinterpreted it doesn’t change the fact that for at least 1800 years of Christian history, Christians themselves, along with their sanctioned reading of scripture, canon of laws, and actions have done evil against Jews with those NT texts, without cause.
There is a whole Orthodox Christian genre entitled “Adversus Ioudaios” literally Against the Jews, that can be traced back to at the latest the beginning of the 2nd century, even earlier. We can’t escape the fact that an anti Jewish rhetoric (a fierce rhetoric and libel against Jesus’ purported opponents,) has lead Christians in most generations (in one degree or another) to do violence and or to speak extreme ill against Jews. It is not a coincidence that “Pharisee” is a slur in our culture. We can thank the NT for that.
Its inherent in the NT (in John’s gospel most viciously) due to that particular text’s historical context. The NT lambasts the Pharisees as being worthless, blind, stupid, evil, etc. thus the text itself harbors a hatred of a community, that goes beyond prophetic rebuke, and spills over affecting religious and non religious Jews negatively. Notice that Jesus never includes himself in the rebukes? He never says, “I too am worthless, stupid, evil.” The prophets (in contrast to Jesus) always placed themselves alongside those who they condemned for their unrighteousness.
In the gospels, Jesus’ students are contrasted sharply with the Pharisees. The pharisees are almost always treated as totally beyond redemption. Do you think it is just coincidence that so many horrid things happened to the Jews?
David, you have spoken to and accused Dina and others here of possessing an anti Christian, and anti pagan agenda on behalf of people here.
Are you not aware that historical Christian legislation and culture is absolutely saturated with anti Jewish, and also anti pagan literature and actions? THERE IS AN ENTIRE GENRE DEVOTED ONLY TO THE SUBJECT OF BASHING JEWS AND THEIR FAITH!!!!
The protocols of the learned elders of Zion, Chrysostom’s homilies against the Jews, Tertullian’s treatise against them, Luther’s works, countless forced disputations throughout history, the blood libel, blaming Jews for the Plague, forced expulsions, and the climate of hostility produced by this vitriolic literature that contributed greatly to the holocaust and the world’s inaction in the face of it.
Do you realize that most of the Nuremburg laws have antecedents in Christian legislation? Yellow badges, Ghettos, forced labor, exclusion from positions of authority or of influence, etc. were all practiced by the Churches before the Nazis! I am in no way blaming all Christians for the Shoah, but I am asking you to confront historical realities rather than to live with a myth that Christians have been unfairly judged or maligned.
There is a well known saying, “let history make its own judgements.” Did the Church live up to the profound ethics of Jesus in all its history? NO! And yes, Jesus’ ethics were profound. That said, the movement founded in his name has done unspeakable harm, and only a fool would paint Christendom as poor persecuted sheep. Did you know there were Pogroms in Poland and Austria in 1946 among clergymen RIGHT AFTER THE HOLOCAUST ENDED? Did you know about general Patton’s reaction (when confronted by president Truman with the conditions in postwar refugee camps?)
Hi Con,
I’m interested in hearing about General Patton. I don’t know the story you are referring to, so if you have time, can you write it?
I hope David reads what you wrote, but I think he’s gone for now. He pops up every once in a while, then leaves just as abruptly.
At any rate, thanks for the validation. I recently read an article about anti-Semitism. It described it as the oldest, most universal, and most implacable hatred. Throughout the ages, the anti-Semite and the Jew have faced off against each other, the one playing offense and the other playing defense, respectively.
And that is the revenge of the anti-Semite: when we complain about anti-Semitism, we are the ranters and ravers.
The point hit home, because Eric, David, and Paul have all expressed the view that I rant and rave about anti-Semitism while denying the phenomenon. Eric denies that there is such a thing as Christian anti-Semitism and accuses me of being “soaked in message of hate.” Paul tells me I’m acting like a pathetic victim. And David pretends that there was never such a thing in the first place, while Jews were the ones oppressing Christians and now Arabs.
It’s enough to make anyone bang their head against the wall in despair.
Yeah Dina. I was actually profoundly shocked when I heard about general Patton. My family has an extensive history of military service, and Ive always respected general Patton. My Grandfather fought in WWII, so Ive always had a sense of respect for Patton. I was watching a documentary on Netflix called “The long way home.” It talks about hardships faced by survivors after the Shoah. It Chronicles Patton’s work administering post war refugee camps. He apparently said some very horrific things in his diary.
As I said, I was shocked. I understand how Christians feel. They believe in their religion,but they can’t believe that honest “believers” would be capable of such horrible violence. Sadly, the historical record illustrates a very violent history of Christianity. Many Christians have said “true Christians only do good to others as Jesus taught,” but they miss the point that evil can come even from the best of sources. Even the Torah (G-d forbid) could be used for violence if a group had their heart set on it. The point is, we cant whitewash. We have to confront the difficult verses in religious texts that can be used for violence.
Wow, Con, I just googled “General Patton anti semitic” and was deeply disturbed by what I found (actually, boiling mad is a more apt description).
Yeah, i was angry myself. Its disturbing.
Hello again
Yes I am aware of these barbaric acts of wickedness. You would have to be totally insane to dismiss these truths of history.
But im a believer in the Jewish Jesus, and His teachings, and im no Jew hater. Thats why I make the statements of the True invisible Church, verses the visible non church.
Ive also discovered that Henry Ford was quite the antisemite.
C.R.,
You wrote,
“Did the Church live up to the profound ethics of Jesus in all its history? NO! And yes, Jesus’ ethics were profound.”
My response,
I agree, “the Church” meaning the visible church, meaning “Christiandom.” There’s a difference between Christiandom and Christianity.
Did you know that during the Middle Ages everyone in Europe except for Jews and Muslims were part of Christiandom? Obviously then, they weren’t all Christians.
There is nothing in the NT that is anti-Semitic.
The Crusades for example began as a reaction to Islam to when Alexis, the Emperor of Byzantium, an area of Christiandom, requested help from the Pope.
And Hitler was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Semitic.
There’s a difference between Christendom and Christianity.
Not a truly meaningful one David. Think about it. If someone reads your sacred text David, and based on reading that text, and being motivated by its verses, decides to persecute some group of people using those NT verses, that is on the Christian community’s shoulders to make sure that doesn’t happen, to take responsibility for your own Bible.
Would you agree for instance, that Muslims who read verses in the Qur’an about “killing the infidel,” should be held responsible to uproot the vitriol of those verses that are the root cause of the violence towards non Muslims?
There is nothing in the NT that is anti-Semitic.
The Gospel of John singles out “the Jews” as an entire nation and denigrates them on the basis of living and maintaining their tradition as it existed before Jesus. I don’t care if the author was a Jew, his words DO IN FACT promote unwarranted violence against Jews as a national entity. That is the nature of antisemitism. You have to consciously ignore historical fact to say otherwise, which is, respectfully, crazy. I don’t care about these godly invisible Christians of yours, I care about the real physical person who reads the Christian Bible and decides to persecute Jews, and knock on people’s doors. What’s the difference between invisible “true Christians” and “True Christians” that don’t exist? Just your imagination!
BTW David, the next time you see my invisible 1 million dollar Check, be sure to let me know and return it, if you could.
Con, things are invisible for those who do not want to see. I am talking about people just in case you wanted mention about your check to me. too. Ask the thousands who were rescued and they will tell you that their rescuers has a physical human form.
Hello CR
Your reasoning here is only based on what happened from the view point of a perversion used on the bible. The Bible on the whole is simply a Jewish document. Ok, the NT was written in Greek, and yes non believers will not receive the NT as sacred. That I get, but the NT was written by Jews, primarily for Jews.
In fact there are passages where Jesus ignores gentiles for the sake of first going to the Jew first. Going to the Jew first, obviously shows the importance of the gospels first audience. Plus Pauls aim and teaching was the Jew first.
These are simple and basic truths taught in scripture.
To be totally blunt here, the idea that the NT and the teachings of Christ are intended foundations of Jewish blood are as perverted as the texts used to promote Jewish deaths. Again to be blunt, it seems like using the anti semimetic reasoning of NT scripture is a convenient place to hide from the truth which is obviously what is going here, and what has gone on through the corridors of history.
Im not ignorant to the fact of Jewish blood being spilt in the name of Christ. I see it and get it. Bloggers here will bombard these pages with dates, quotes, etc of Jewish blood being shed in the name of Christ. That I see yes and yes. Im not dismissing these facts or ignoring them nor am I condoning them. I see it through the eyes of Jews and try to understand the horrible history dished out by the “church”.
I havnt personally being persecuted, so I can only see it from the outside looking in, but I do have Jewish friends who families were killed in the pogroms in Europe. This Jewish friend or actually now a Jewish brother in Christ is a Messianic, Christian believer.He is a Rabbi and of course he understands the history better than me. But he isnt anti NT teachings. He sees it as the Bible was intended to be seen, pro Jew.
Plus I have another Jewish brother who is a Dr in Jewish theology. His parents escaped nazi Europe into siberia. He also came to Christ in faith. He sees the theology concept of Jewish history, but he isnt anti NT teachings.
WHY??? Because the Bible on the whole is Jewish.
I see a odd concept here;
Bible believing followers of Christ, simply do not hate Jews or promote Jewish hatred.
WHY??
Because a simply glance over the scriptures from beginning to end show that the Jews are paramount and central to the plan of God. No Jews no plan. Its that simple.
Non believers, athiests, or religious institutions which stand under the banner of the cross, who simply do not belong to Christ will be led or lead others to totall non scriptual teachings of the written word. They may and do use scripture to promote there own concepts of scripture, but that is not a legitimate rendering of Scripture.
Now Here Jews who reject Christ, who totally reject the teachings of Christ, use the twisted rendering of the truth, and use those false teachings, which fueled their horrific and bloody history, as a scapegoat, to deflect their theological postion with God.
A position which is only temporary, which unfortunately will only get worse before it gets better.
May the Lord God of Israel open your eyes to the truth.
Paul
Your statement that we use the anti-Semitism of the Church as a “scapegoat” is demonstrably false – there are hundreds of articles on this blog alone – the vast majority of them point out the theological and Scriptural flaws of Christianity without resorting to mentioning Christian anti-Semitism – why don’t you try responding to an article like “Another Mathematical Problem”? or “Blood Songs” – you have hundreds to choose from
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/04/12/another-mathematical-problem-2/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/949/
Hello CR
The problem with statements like the one here which you write ref John are worryingly incorporated with antisemitism. The topic which here is in question.
You make unwarranted emphatic statements about John dammning an entire Jewish nation.
Do you not see, that kind of thinking and public outcry is just the same medium of propaganda which antisemites use. You automatically and totally incorrectly read into a text and use it for your argument.
You would think that the mob who claim Jews killed Jesus had read the bible and were carrying out righteousness in the name of Christ.
However it is very evident that the NT teaches quite the oppersite. Jesus made numerous statements about Himself laying down His own life for His sheep. He said nobody takes His life. He said Ive come to do my Fathers will. He told pilate that he didnt have any authority over His life. Etc etc etc etc.
So the message is clear. So to persecute a Jew, based on the notion that Jesus was murdered out of Gods sovereign will is so enormously stupid it beggars belief.
Once one has obtained salvation through Christs death, buriel and resurrection, it becomes very clear that the Jewish rejection of Messiah is my acceptance into the covenants of Israel. Something wich was hindered by proselytising through the temple service.
Gods overall plan for my salvation as a gentile is through Israels rejection of their Messiah. Anyone with an ounce of common decency will see, that through Gods grace there are redeemed through Christ, through faith. The consequential reaction to that revelation of truth is to tell the Jew of Christ, not to murder them. Im only saved because of His death.
It is a thin line, but if you get it wrong the consequences are massive. The “church” got it wrong. Is John argueing to said individuals or the entire 100% nation. If you read the individual texts and then, on the whole NT, a look will reveal the truth….. Individuals.
Your foundational starting point is uneven. The more you build on it the more it becomes unstable. Your views are personal but not scriptual.
So, if Jsus is laying his own life on the line then WHY does he call those people devils and children of the devil. He should have praised them for doing the will of the Father.
David Hitler had a pact with the Pope – he had no pact with any Jewish entity. Hitler gave tithe to the Catholic Church till the day he died. to say that he was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Semitic is simply untrue
Yisroel,
Hitler rejected the Christian God and preferred the ancient paganism of his forefathers.
His ideas were anti-Christian. He drew heavily from Nietzsche, who originally coined the phrase “God is dead.” By his own admission he was clearly fighting against the God of the bible.
Regarding his pact with Christiandom and not with the Jews, why would he, a madman bent on ultimate power, make a pact with relatively powerless Jews?
David I was responding to your comment that Hitler was as much anti-Christian as he was anti-Jewish – this is false – he saw some commonality between himself and Christianity – but none with Judaism
Hello
Yes I agree. H had been very clear of his future intentions for the jewish people. Making political, religious pacts would have been futile.
However H wasnt stupid. Evil and mad, yes. H was raised “in a church environment,” either Lutheran and RC. These churches had been raised in The Teaching of contempt, the antisemitism which was rife in the church.
So with a mix of antisemitism teaching, germanic erian pseudo science and mythology h was well self convinced that Jews had to be disposed of.
His perfect excuse was “the churches” own teachings. All h had to do was to get the church on side, and his future intentioned plans were made even more accessible.
A point to remember is h came to power by democracy. Crazy as it was, it was still by the ballot box. Once h came to ultimate power the church had to replace the bible wih a copy of meine kampft and a sword. By then it was to late, and the sorrowful future of 6 million Jews were only days away.
paul Do you realize that every step of Hitler’s plan for the Jews was already thought out by Church theologians long before him – including a racist persecution of Jews
Hello
Well again technically speaking tithing is a non NT scriptual teaching. Tithes were given under the Mosaic Law. As any scripture based believer in Christ should know and practice, the Law was rendered inoperative through Christ, freeing the believer ftom the Law.
Unfortunately tithes and dozens more errors of teaching are practiced by the church, under the misguided teaching of so called leaders.
Again, what the NT actually teaches and what one practices are miles apart.
Are You contradicting G-d when it comes to tithing or other “Mosaic laws”. (Laws were handed down FROM G-d). What does Malachi say and who is MORE authoritative, Malachi or Xtian teaching.
Will a man rob God? Yet you rob Me, and you say, “With what have we robbed You?”-With tithes and with the terumah-levy.
You are cursed with a curse, but you rob Me, the whole nation!
Bring the whole of the tithes into the treasury so that there may be nourishment in My House, and test Me now therewith, says the Lord of Hosts, [to see] if I will not open for you the sluices of heaven and pour down for you blessing until there be no room to suffice for it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sake, and he will not destroy the fruits of your land; neither shall your vine cast its fruit before its time in the field, says the Lord of Hosts.
You have said, “It is futile to serve God, and what profit do we get for keeping His charge and for going about in anxious worry because of the Lord of Hosts?”
So, Paul, are You willing to ROB G-d.
18And you shall return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who has not served Him.
Hi Paul and Sharbano,
Well put Paul.
Sharbano:
The Law of Moses and Malachi’s tithing command are addressed to the house of Israel.
It does not, therefore apply to Gentile Christians.
The problem with this is the “first church” were Israelites NOT Gentiles.
In any event Isaiah is speaking about Gentiles of the nations.
Hi Paul!
The problem with Protestants is that they think that everything is abrogated by Christ. That is a lie! Enough of your counter-witness to the truth. What did the Church said in the Gospel of Matthew:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
and further the Christ said:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Therefore if you want to be a true disciple of the Master you must obey not do as you want. If you can not obey because of lack of love for God then humiliate yourself and fall on your knee and pray that you have the grace to be obedient. This is the process of all your life to be worthy of entering the Heavens. Be serious and let go of Babylon!
Peace and blessings!
That “Crusade reaction” DID go to the “Jew first”.
Hi
Well technically the crusades were aimed at the muslims first, then on route Jews were killed. But yes I understand the concept.
Imperialism conquest, state domination, church wordly superiority and definitely Jewish persecution is NOT the teaching of Jesus the Jew or His Church.
All the above is by man putting himself on the throne of God and ignoring scriptural teaching.
Persecution of the Jewish people is literally as old as sin itself, it is not a new church document. The book of Esther should show the world thus.
The murderous attempt to destroy Gods children in Europe is not a new concept. Sad but uncomfortably true.
Paul, read my posts on this blog about this subject. Nobody is blaming All christians for Jewish persecution, we are just noting that there are things written in the NT that fuel a hatred of Jews. Even if Jews wrote large parts of the NT, there words had consequences for the Jewish community. The NT has a narrative that negatively implicates all Jews as a people in Jesus’ death. This reinforces and strengthens anti semitism by itself.
Hello CR
Yes I understand you, and yes I did read your quotes.
Like I stated earlier also, texts taken out of context and used to fuel hatred, will by some, be just that, fuel for hatred. The texts cannot he blamed, its the condition of the hearts who read the texts that cause the problems. People twist the truth around to attain their own agendas.
The agenda of antisemitism was always there, it just needed some warped justification to carry out there own plans.
This is why the whole concept of the NT being so antisemitic to me is totally bizarre.
Both parties are guilty.
Antisemitic “believers”who apparently love Christ use scripture to kill Jews.
Jewish non believers also believe that the NT has antisemitism running through it pages.
So the two groups agree with each other!! The difference being, Jews are persecuted, while the other, dish it out!!
However the NT teaches quite the oppersite. The NT teaches that everything that Jesus did and taught was Tanach based. Jews being very central to the whole concept and plan of God. No Jew no plan. That plan is still in place. So killing Jews is not a good idea for every possible reason.
Paul Did you read my article “The Guilt of Books”?
If it’s Tanach based why are there so many mis-quotes.
Hi Paul,
“However the NT teaches quite the oppersite. The NT teaches that everything that Jesus did and taught was Tanach based. ”
Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?
Hi Saul! You asked: “Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?”
The Doctrine of the Bread of Life comes from John 6. The living bread given for the life of the Church has it roots in the Torah in the book of Leviticus:
Leviticus 7:13
12 If a person offers it for giving thanks, he is to offer it with the thanksgiving sacrifice of unleavened cakes mixed with olive oil, matzah spread with olive oil, and cakes made of fine flour mixed with olive oil and fried. 13 With cakes of leavened bread he is to present his offering together with the sacrifice of his peace offerings for giving thanks. 14 From each kind of offering he is to present one as a gift for Adonai; it will belong to the cohen who splashes the blood of the peace offerings against the altar.
Leviticus 8:26
From the basket of matzah that was before Adonai he took one piece of matzah, one cake of oiled bread, and one wafer, and placed them on the fat and on the right thigh.
Leviticus 8:31
Moshe said to Aharon and his sons, “Boil the meat at the door of the tent of meeting; and eat it there with the bread that is in the basket of consecration, as I ordered when I said that Aharon and his sons are to eat it.
Leviticus 8:32
Whatever is left over of the meat and bread you are to burn up completely.
Leviticus 21:6
Rather, they are to be holy for their God and not profane the name of their God. For they are the ones who present Adonai with offerings made by fire, the bread of their God; therefore they must be holy.
And on and on…
Ancient Judaism is the root of Orthodox Christianity. The last accomplish the first.
Blessings and Peace!
Leviticus certainly DOES NOT speak of consuming blood. Quite the opposite .
Out of everything Xtianity teaches the eat flesh and blood is The Most Disgusting thing imaginable. In ancient times people would be cannibals in order to gain the power of their enemies. Is THIS what Xtianity wants us to believe. We have to believe in “symbolic cannibalism”.
Sharbano, did you see any Christians drinking blood or eating flesh??? Did any of jesus disciples eat jesus flesh when he spoke to them? Did any vine change into blood because Jesus said; “this is my blood “, or the opposite? No, What was the purpose ? That we all share in his blood shed for us that is for our atonement .
As far as .’ Eating ; represents feeding on God’s words. Read John 6
You can whitewash it all you want but that doesn’t remove the disgusting aspect of it. With the Strict prohibition on consuming blood it is Questionable that a “Jew” would suggest such a thing.
Sharbano, are you kidding? you really believe we drink blood??? Do you know of at least one Christian that does it for his religious purposes??? You seem to be out of moon.
Hi Christian
I didn’t ask about supposed roots, i asked where does the Tanakh teach to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Please, do not try to divert from the issue at hand. Your roots things could be made about MacDonald as well. So please, stick to the question.
Saul G to Christian ” “I didn’t ask about supposed roots, i asked where does the Tanakh teach to eat human flesh and drink human blood. ”
It is amazing you are even asking such a question. Do you know what is a figurative language? And did you say you used to be a Christian? There is no eating human flesh and no drinking any blood in Christianity. To those who understood it literally jesus gave the answer in John 8 ;63
The question remains, Why symbolism of something detestable. I’m sure that analogy will bring countless Jews to the table. It sounds more like using the symbolism of the Canaanites.
Sharbano, you have a problem with symbolism? What about that! Do you believe that sprinkling the altar with blood really CLEANED OR PURIFIED it??? That’s what the scripture say. How does it sound encouraging to have something ‘cleaned’ with blood???
Nobody ever imagines that sharing wine we drink Jesus blood, or by sharing bread we eat his body. Wine and bread are sheared a symbols of his blood poured for everybody and his body broken for everybody.
Eric, do you EVER read ALL the words. “A problem with symbolism”. As I said before. READ the entire comment. Why ________ of something detestable. What does the altar have to do with it. Does the priest drink the blood. Blood in and of itself is Not detestable, but if you tell a little child to drink this as it is my blood what would he say.
Once a person goes down the road to say it is G-d’s will that a human can be a sacrifice for man, as the pagans had done, then nothing is out of the question. Because of THAT you cannot see the detestable nature of, even symbolically, eating flesh and drinking blood. It makes me wonder, was Dracula a Xtian.
Hi Saul Goodman,
“Can you show me where eating human flesh and drinking human blood and that it saves you can be found in Tanakh?”
Neither Hebrew Scriptures nor the NT testament teaches the consumption of human flesh. It is a misunderstanding held to by Catholicism that there is an actual presence of Jesus. Protestants don’t hold to that.
The practice of the last supper which you are referring to was initiated by Jesus as a “remembrance” of what he did to include his broken body and spilled blood on the cross. If you read the NT you’ll see this is the case. The NT also refers to Him as God’s Passover Lamb for us.
By participating individually and communally in the eating of the bread and the wine, as a remembrance of Him and the work he did for us, Christians proclaim His death until he returns, which is also noted in the NT.
Regarding being “saved”, we are saved by righteousness in a manner of speaking whether in OT times or NT times. The Hebrew Scriptures don’t speak in detail about this.
The difference between OT times and NT times is that now, in NT times, one need not have one’s own righteousness. One need only have the faith of accepting Jesus into one’s heart as God’s son (the Messiah) and believing that God raised His son from the dead. In this way we take on the righteousness of God’s son as our own righteousness. It is the righteousness of Jesus who paid the price for our sins which gains for us life in the age to come, not our own righteousness that gains us life. Christians hold that Isaiah 53 describes this specific process of the Messiah paying the price for our righteousness.
The difference of having the righteousness of Jesus is that He, as the Son of God is always righteous and it is never lost and thus our salvation is never lost. We cannot depend on our own righteousness as a guarantee the same way we can depend on the Son of God because our righteousness can be lost. The Hebrew Scriptures also teach that we can lose our righteousness, and as noted above the Hebrew Scriptures don’t go into much detail about life in the age to come nor the standard for gaining life in the age to come.
One last note. Salvation shouldn’t be confused with judgment on our behavior. We will all (including those who are saved) be judged on what we have done for the good or for the bad.
There are several points about that event that are problematic. Is there any case where Jewish rituals are symbolic of something that is detestable. If it were to be done for remembrance there is no need to make the comparison of flesh and blood. If it relates to Passover, Why then were they eating bread.
It sounds like the definition of righteousness in Xtianity is contradictory. If it’s the case that a person takes on the righteousness of Jsus then if that person sins it is Jsus who is also sinning. And if judgment is based upon actions then Jsus righteousness is to no avail.
Peace to you David!
With all due respect. Your teaching is not Orthodox but pure invention from a papist mentality. You better return to the Orthodox Doctrine of the Apostles and the holy fathers of the Church.
Protestantism being a daughter of Babylon the Prostitute you are all polluted by her fornication with earthly powers. You deny your mother but being her daughter you are contaminated in your mind with her perverted doctrine.
Exodus 25 of the Show Bread yours to read to understand the concept of the real Presence on the Altar.
Cleanse yourself in the bath of the water of the Orthodox Church for you to begin your life in the Messiah. Your opposition to Judaism can not hold like all Protestants you lack proper worship in the Divine Liturgy and you lack communion to the holy mysteries that you have been denied because you are not from the Holy Church. Repent and may be the Lord would have mercy on you for your path is the path of Antichrist like most Protestants for you deny the Coming in flesh of the Messiah in his Church. For we are One with him because we commune to the Bread of Life and drink to the Cup of Salvation the cup of the Spirit.
I am sorry to be that blunt because you become you and the 10000 denominations real counter witnesses to the truth. See the real warning of saint John about your sects:
Beware of Antichrist Deceivers
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. (2 john1)
Conclusion dear David you have been brought forth in the western protestant mentality that has deformed the true Doctrine of Christ. Return to the true Revelation in the teaching of the Apostles and the fathers of the Church and hopefully you will got out of Babylon and her daughters. Courage and blessings to you!
Hello Sharbano
You have gone off track here, and forgotten the NT teaching. I appreciate you dont believe in the believers Messianic Law compared to the OT law as it were. ie Christ fulfilled the Law so we dont have to.
Keeping that in mind, the text you have just quoted is nil and void to the body of Christ, the Church.
Tithes are a command, according to the Law. Quite simply, now believers should give according to the abundance of their hearts, not to the letter of the Law. A heart which God sees. Giving by the letter and command is just a legal ritual, giving from the heart is personal and more rewarding.
Also the Law was given to Israel and Jews, I am neither.
As an add on. MPF stated that h tithed according to Christianity, as ive already shown tithing is not a NT scriptual teaching. However tithing is a Tanach teaching, because you have just rightly pointed it out, so historically h participated in Jewish law.
First of all I don’t care one whit about Xtian teaching. I only have concern for what G-d says and said Through His Torah.
So your basis is because of “personal reward”. Your “personal” satisfaction outweighs what G-d Himself has commanded. HIS commands are a “legal Ritual”? No wonder Xtians have no problem with Jsus behavior towards his parents. No longer is honoring your parents valid but nothing but a legal ritual. Apparently the words of G-d and His Torah are meaningless to you. Certainly Xtianity, as you profess, considers Torah superficial and unworthy of any deliberation. Quite obviously G-d didn’t think so since He instructed His prophets time and again for Israel to observe these same laws.
As written in Devarim:
For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is at all times that we call upon Him?
And which great nation is it that has just statutes and ordinances, as this entire Torah, which I set before you this day?
Or Malachi:
Keep in remembrance the Torah of Moses, My servant-the laws and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.
If your messiah fulfilled a law so “you” don’t have to then taking care of the poor, the widow, the orphan shouldn’t be of any concern to you. I suggest your issue is with G-d, as when He speaks to Isaiah
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, “Come, let us go up to the Lord’s mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths,” for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
So we would have to believe everything contained in the Prophets and throughout Tanach are done away with the ending of the law, and mankind should live in anarchy, which IS when society is devoid of laws.
Hello
Sorry for having to reply in this manner. Not all answers have a reply link??
When Jesus was referring to The said individuals as being children of there father the devil, He was contextually talking about His claims and the authenticity of His claims, those claims being rejected.
What He definitely wasn’t speaking about was His coming death. The Jewish non believers were not or doing Jesus a favour. I will state though, that they didnt do themselves or any future generations any favours.
The Kingdom was offered, but the offer was rejected.
However I will say again that by Israels national rejection of Jesus as Messiah did me personally a favour, by Gods sovereign grace, through His Son, I have redemption from my sin.
Jesus came to die either way. Gods plan was for His Son to die. The blood attonement was going to happen come what may. Thats why I quote Gen 3:15 as the first Messianic prophecy.
You will see many times the texts, “that His time was not yet at hand” etc etc.
This is the reason why the twisterd claim that Jews murdered Jesus are so stupid. A simple reading of scripture shows Jesus gave His life for the Sins of man. Jew or gentile.
Hello Sharbano
Do you think that giving from the heart through love is greater or less than giving from a command? Because one has to?
Example
If s husband told his wife 10 times aday that he loved her, you would think and hope the wife would be happy. However if the wife complained to her husband about his affections, you would ask whats the problem.
The wife says, you never mean it, its just a ritual. 10 times aday you repeat it. But where’s the love, why don’t YOU tell me that you love me, in your own words, from the heart. Just once from the real you would outweigh the written command.
The husband answers and says, why should I, when the Law is enough.
Pauls letters are very clear on how Holy the Law is. The problem with the Law is that, it was a tempoary guide for man, and not a means of salvation, and the Law shows Gods righteous standards, not mans. The fullest completed works of the Law were of the heart through Christ, who is the Law, which supercedes the written letter.
It wasnt the original word that Jesus took issue with, it was the way it was being used.
If the written Law was still in force today, today you would be preparing a one of three trips this year to visit Jerusalem and continue in Gods commands. The temple would still be functioning etc. But it doesnt because Israels Messiah fullfilled all that was required.
God would be asking you to fulfil a law requirement which is impossible. God doesn’t work like that. But He has given you a prophet, priest and King. Its just up to you to accept Him.
Just to add, the world is not in anarcy at this moment in time. Seeing that not one country even Israel lives by the Torah Laws shows you something. Most countries do live by a law or a moral code. Some more than otheres, some less, but a law of such is in place. Buts its not Torah.
You have to ask the question, if the Torah Law is able to redeem oneselfs, and its obligations are for Israel, a safe gaurding for a blessed life, one has to ask, why the persecution over 2000 yrs. God said I will bless you if you keep my Law. He never said follow my ways and I will send persecution on you.
So you need to show me why the persecution?
Paul the Law is love – the law commands love But none of this is relevant God says that the Law is permanent and the fact that we cannot do all of the laws all of the time has no bearing on that As for your question about the persecution – we never said that we are fulfilling the law the way it is supposed to be fulfilled – we all need to improve
Yours is Not a valid analogy. Is it better to obey G-d’s commandment or not. Just as Israel said upon receiving the commandments, “we will do and we will listen”.
The same with a wife, it is incumbent upon the man to please his wife.
If that is the way Paul is to be understood, that Torah is “temporary” then he calls G-d a liar. He says it is for throughout your generations. It also says to the thousandth generation. Have we reached a thousand generations.
You also deny what the prophets say. Ezekiel is clear that when the third temple is built all will be as it was. It also says of that time that nations will come to Jerusalem because from there Torah goes forth to the world. It also says those nations who do not come to Jerusalem to observe Sukkot will not receive rain in its time. These are all examples that show you Paul doesn’t know what he is talking about.
G-d also says it is NOT impossible to follow. This is a Xtan invention and has no basis from G-d. Torah is still followed this day by more and more Jews, and the numbers keep rising. It is only YOUR god that doesn’t work like that. Our G-d, Hashem, does work like that.
And that is precisely Why Israel is under so many difficulties. If Torah were being followed, especially Shemittah, their enemies would fade away. This has always been the problem and persists today. What we have now is the Erev Rav and a secular government. Instead, what we have is a country who persecutes primarily the religious. As has been taught, if all Israel would keep two Shabbats in succession Mashiach would come immediately. Unfortunately we have people who are more interested in being a “Western style nation” than being Torah observant. Israel was never meant to have a Greco-Roman style country. As it was in Torah times there are those who want a King, “like the other nations”, and That is the beginning of trouble. G-d never promised that if a “few” would be righteous that would be sufficient. This is the lesson from Sinai, ALL Israel said with One voice, “we will do and we will listen”. As it says in Ezra
“The people then assembled as (one man) to Jerusalem”
Shalom Rabbi!
Why 2000 years of suffering and persecution?
What did Israel do to receive such a chastisement?
Between the first and second temple how many years of punishment?
First temple destruction: destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE when they sacked the city.; reconstruction date around 538 BCE completed in 515 BCE.. The delta was 70 years between the destruction of the 1st and the completion of the 2nd temple.
For 585 years till year 70 AD the second temple stood. Year 70 AD complete destruction till now no new temple… Why is that?
Could it be that the death of the Messiah cursed the Jewish people for all those years? According to the Gospel of Luke the Messiah said:
34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Obviously the plea to forgiveness to the Father Almighty did not prevent Him to destroy the Second Temple. Therefore how can you explain your walk according to the will of God when He chastise you for more than 19 centuries? Can you be sure to walk according to his will?
Thank you in advance! Blessings!
Christian
If the rejection of Jesus brought this suffering upon us – it saved us from the greater evil – it saved us from being the perpetrators of this suffering. Instead of worrying about us – why don’t you worry about yourself – if Jesus is supposed to bring light into the world why did he bring so much hate, small-mindedness and death?
After everything is said and done – our history is a blessing compared to yours
ypf, you seem to be unteachable, repeating the same blame over and over again .
“if Jesus is supposed to bring light into the world why did he bring so much hate, small-mindedness and death?
It is not jesus who brings the hate saying “have love for one another”.
It is people who reject God’s word and misusing it take it against others. God can bring you so much light but if you have clouds you won’t see it. The same it is with people who misuse, twist it and cover the truth from others, or hide the light with their sins and evil actions.
“ypf, you seem to be unteachable, repeating the same blame over and over again ”
Is that Your purpose here, to “teach US”. Really??
The problem is, you have been unable to provide any convincing arguments. Your entire analysis is based upon circular reasoning. The Rabbi is right, you have no concept of our beliefs. A good example is not a single Xtian was even aware that the Xtian text speaks of Gentiles keeping the “Noachide Laws”. They ALL imagined it was some recent Rabbinic invention. There are a great many other examples also. So, we can conclude we know Your bible better than Xtians do.
sharbano, “The problem is, you have been unable to provide any convincing arguments.”
Even a convincing argument will be nothing for somebody who is unable to open himself to the spoken words. So I am not concerned about you ‘ being convinced or not” . You may be listening and never hearing, seeing and being unable to perceive… But keep praying to God for the answer.
You simply see no need for God using a person for our redemption. If you do not see a reason, you will try to find arguments against Jesus in every of his words and all cgristianity will look foolish to you.
Eric:
“If you do not see a reason, you will try to find arguments against Jesus in every of his words and all cgristianity will look foolish to you.”
In other words, you have to believe in Jesus for all of it to make sense. Got it.
It’s quite the interesting dichotomy.
It can be said that No one has come to Jsus, intellectually, or analytically. The analytically approach has never worked. By all accounts it has been through emotional distress. Michael Brown is the epitome of this. He has detailed his “come to Jsus” moment many times.
It is also fascinating that Torah was written and formulated in such a way that requires an analytical approach. Rashi is the epitome of This approach. Therefore, the Jew has been accustomed to relying on This approach.
This is the dichotomy. The analytically approach cannot stand on emotion, and an emotional bond cannot be analytical. One is “What do I do for G-d”, and the other is “What does G-d do for me”. It is epitomized in the Cautionary vs. Directive rules.
Directive being :”Do to others what you want them to do to you”
Cautionary being: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow”
Directive imposes Your will on others, whereas cautionary doesn’t seek your will on others, but attempts to not be the source of any one’s will, thus Free Will.
An extreme case would be that a masochist would be allowed to be a sadist, according to the Directive.
We are told WHY the punishment between the First and Second Temples. It was because of Shemittah violations. Also your dates on wrong with the Babylonians. The total is 490 years as told by Daniel.
If the death of your messiah was what was to happen WHY would THAT be cause for destruction. It SHOULD be just the opposite. Instead there were the Xtian and a number of others who split the Jewish nation. The divisions are the cause. Furthermore, Jsus was the worst culprit. Not only did he Not help heal divisions he did everything he could to create even more.
Concerned Reader says:
August 1, 2015 at 6:56 pm
Even if the verses in the NT that call Jews “children of the Devil,” etc. could be radically reinterpreted it doesn’t change the fact that for at least 1800 years of Christian history, Christians themselves, along with their sanctioned reading of scripture, canon of laws, and actions have done evil against Jews with those NT texts, without cause.
Hello
Again I will show you the error of mistaken rendering of scripture.
You state that Jesus is calling Jews “children of the devil”. I take it from that, you are assuming that Jesus is calling ALL Jews devils.?
Thats exactly what happened to fuel Jewish persecution. Scripture being read to to suit there own agendas and beliefs.
Your beliefs are different, but the context is still taken out of context.
Jesus is NOT calling ALL Jews children of the devil. Contextually He is aligning the Jews He is directly talking too, children of the devil. He is using that language in context, because the devil is the father of lies, and the Jews to whom He is addresses are in agreement with the devil. The devil is their father, the father of lies, not the Father of Heaven, The God of Israel. They confess that Adonai is their Father, but actually they are rejecting Him, because they are rejecting His Son.
Yes its a direct rebuke, Jesus is saying what is.
Im not trying to soften the text here.
Im sure the disciples would have something to say if Jesus were painting all Jews as devils children. And Im sure the NT would not have been written by Jews if their teacher thought His own disciples as devils.
I dont disagree with you that these texts have been used to fuel pogroms etc. That is obvious, but now you seem to agree with the antisemitic.
If you dont agree with the antisemitic, then you must admit the other, that the NT doesnt teach antisemitism? You cannot sit on both sides of the fence. But thats the strange thing here, you are focusing on what isnt taught, and dismissing everything that is, just like the antisemitic. Odd???
If you read the passage in question again, with the view of what ive just said, you will see what I mean. If you cant see it, its because you read it like they do. Out of context.
Paul Jesus is “explaining” that the reason people reject him is because they are children of the devil – as if there is no moral justification for questioning his ridiculous claims. That is dehumanizing your opponents
Peace to you!
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?(1John 3 NKJV)
compared with
Isaiah 1:3-5 (NKJV)
3 The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.”
4 Alas, sinful nation,
A people laden with iniquity,
A brood of evildoers,
Children who are corrupters!
They have forsaken the Lord,
They have provoked to anger
The Holy One of Israel,
They have turned away backward.
Anti-humans, anti-africans, anti-semite, anti-christians, anti-…. all evil comes from a perverted heart, not from Scriptures telling the truth. We must combat all forms of evil and not take religion as a pretext to justify our perverted hearts. All men are sinners and all must repent and walk according to the will of God.
Blessings to you and pray for me a sinner!
Christian You write that all evil comes from a perverted heart – I agree to you – the question we are discussing is – did a perverted heart write the book of John?
Dear witness of the Torah!
I may understand that you rebuke John rebuke of the Jewish Authority. But I am no expert, is it not true that the Jewish Authority were Sadducee who were enemy of the Christ and the Pharisees. Is it not true that many Pharisees were calling Yeshua Rabbi and were debating with him like all rabbis debated among themselves on points of the Torah.
John Gospel is written after the Temple destruction having been witness of the consequence of having rejected the Son of God which as a penalty for the Jewish Nation would be immense. Is he not rightly fire up against the Jewish Authority for having conducted the Jewish Nation to dispersion and perdition for centuries and centuries. What will be the amount of suffering the Messiah predicted when he said:
”31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”
John reaction is made with zeal for the truth and holy anger at the Jewish Authority for being a prophet he saw in consequences what it will bear for his People. He rebuked for love of his brethren that it might wake them up on the grave sin they made in delivering the Christ to the pagans. Is it not forbidden for a Jew to deliver to the Gentiles another Jew. Crime was made. A charge has been made that History has shown us how bad it was for the Jewish Nation to have rejected their own Messiah.
As an Orthodox Christian all Canonized Scriptures Jewish and Christian by the Orthodox Church are for us the word of God and we can not reject not even a word. It is like in Orthodox Judaism were each word of the Torah can not be rejected if you still want to be considered as a Jew. The word of God is the word of God.
Now as witness of the Orthodox Church what John wrote in his Gospel and his letter and his Revelation is the word of God for like Moses he has seen the Glory of God and has touch the Messiah of Israel and we believe our forefathers in the glorious Faith. We love you and we love all of God creation. If some of my brothers have persecuted or did wrong on you and your people I will ask personally for your forgiveness and ask you to pray for me a sinner.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you always and may you continue to love more and more your people and may He one day reunite Ephraim and Judah!
Many blessings!
Christian You don’t seem to get it – the issue is not – “who” Jesus is rebuking – the issue is – what is he saying – and he is saying that rejecting him is not because he didn’t fulfill even one prophecy that would justify his claims – but that anyone who rejects him MUST be a lover of darkness and a child of the devil
It is More likely that the events of that time, and the Churban, were the result of sects like Xtians, Sadducees, Hellenists, Essenes etc that strayed far from Torah. It was ONLY those who associated with the Pharisees that survived from that time until today. ALL those sects, including Xtianity, died out. Any semblance of Judaism within Xtianity was soon expunged when it became Roman. It is Quite interesting that a person named Saul would become a Roman name, Paul, As a result he would argue Against Torah and the requirement of Gentiles keeping the Noachide laws. He would cause much dissension within the ranks, and Then went only to those Gentiles who had no background in Judaism. He would thus be the only arbiter of truth, his own truth. Since those Gentiles didn’t have access to the Jewish texts they weren’t aware of all his distortions of those texts. They were unwilling participants of the deception.
Peace to you Sharbano and YPF!
The Roman church is the Roman church. Orthodox churches are from the root of Judaism. You should study more your claim that Christianity is only Roman. That is not the reality. And the sect of Christianity did survive. Of course it is not a question of numbers. But in History Christian Orthodox have been persecuted by the Romans. Please read the real story of the Crusades and how they persecuted us.
Therefore pull out your American Protestant and Roman glasses and go ask rabbis in Russia about Orthodoxy they may tell you a different story.
Concerning Saint John his Gospel is without any reproach for it is the word of God decided and canonized by the Assembly of the ancients the bishops of the Lord. You are opposing our sacred text on the basis of human perceptions and misconceptions. The assembly (council) of bishops and the Church has canonized those text it is not permitted for Christians Orthodox to even questioned it as it is not permitted for you to questioned the Tanakh which was canonized by the assembly of your ancients. Therefore respect of each other is the basis of any discussion or debate. Questioning the word of any Scriptures bring unbelief to which the world is now plagued.
I will say something bold: destroy all the Orthodox Churches in the world where the Divine Liturgy is performed and hell will come on earth. Look how the enemy is destroying the Christians of the Middle East that will bring Hell in the Middle East including Israel and accelerate the venue of the Antichrist. We are the intercessors of the world destroy us and the world will become a desert.
Now I respect you and consider you but spreading disbelief and non-respect of our sacred Text is promoting irreligion to which you become unrighteous for righteousness comes from faith in God to which He gives his grace to accomplish his Holy will. We are to combat evil and impiousness not religious people and doers of good. Please be careful! Thank you!
Many blessings!
How can it be from the root of Judaism when it is antithetical to Torah. You’ve had to twist and distort the words of Torah in order to fabricate an eternal messiah, son-god. What is pervasive throughout Tanach is G-d needs No One else, yet Xtianity says a single man, a created being, is the one who brings redemption. You have engineered a doctrine that says G-d shares His glory with another being when G-d says He shares His Glory with no one.
If your texts are such a sacred text why did Stephen, who was guided by a Xtian holy spirit, speak with so many mistakes. If it’s From G-d it HAS to be without errors Or mistakes. By his account we can dismiss the entirety of the Xtian text. It it’s the word of G-d it HAS to be an inerrant word of G-d, otherwise it is not the word of G-d.
Christian
Are you saying that we should respect the holy books of Islam, Hinduism and Mormonism also because they were canonized by an assembly of religious people? This makes no sense can you explain yourself?
Dear Rabbi and Sharbano, Peace to you!
First Rabbi you asked: ” Christian Are you saying that we should respect the holy books of Islam, Hinduism and Mormonism also because they were canonized by an assembly of religious people? This makes no sense can you explain yourself?”
Very interesting question: 1) on an Orthodox basis all other religion other than Orthodoxy are false for having heretical views on God or misconceptions or false teaching or simply incomplete doctrines.
Islam for instance teaches the belief in One God like all monotheistic Religion including Orthodox Christianity even though you might disagree. Islam teaches that Yeshua was a true prophet and born of the Virgin Mary. It follows the Torah in many aspect. Islam to my humble opinion seems a religion that promote religiousness and fight impiousness. Therefore I respect my brother Muslim. Their women are modest and dressed modestly. The veiled their hairs like in Orthodox churches when we worship. They eat Kosher food and many good things. Have they some misconceptions on certain things? I will let the One God judge them for who am I to judge them. They are the son of Ishmael and just for that they are praiseworthy for Ishmael was a son of Abraham our father in the faith.
Hinduism is very difficult to accept for Monotheistic religions having a multitude of false gods to whom they worship. They are one of the last remaining polytheistic religion and on an Orthodox point of view they are idolaters. One time an Orthodox Monk went in a visiting tour to visit India and something very strange happened, while approaching an ancient pagan temple he felt in the air a power of marvels and fascinations and reacted by invoking the prayer of the holy name of Yeshua Son of God pray for me a sinner. The spirit of marvels rapidly stop is charming presence and when he past by the guru of the place this guru looked at him with evil eyes. On that basis Hinduism is one of the last pagan religion instated by the influence of demonic forces.
Mormonism is a religion who came from a Freemason Joseph Smith that got a special revelation where basically the Messiah and the Lucifer are brothers. They have a special book and an assembly of so-called prophets and so on. I have talked with them and like many cults they are mainly a regionally based sect addressed to the American mindset. They certainly will never take old in all nations for they are very sectarian.
Now back to Orthodoxy! It is very important to understand the major differences between the Roman church and her daughters the many Protestant Sects and the Orthodox Church. Romanism is a Prostitute that morphs herself with the wind of the moment. Their belief have some truth for She took it from the Orthodox Church but the Papacy for us Orthodox is anti-Christian and ante-Christ ante in the Greek sense of taking the place of God and promoting as being the supreme spiritual power on this earth. This is false doctrine and highly prideful. The sin of Rome is pride and vain glory substituted herself to the Messiah and changing time and belief to suit pagan Roman emperors.
The Orthodox Church kept the Divine Liturgy from the beginning and works in Council and Synods the equivalent of the ancient Sanhedrin. Even our Liturgy is based on the Judaism of the Second temple. In all Orthodox churches we have the Holy of holies with the Menorah with seven candles and the Book of Holy Scriptures on the Altar. We have the consecrated bread, the Bread of the Presence on the Altar in the Tabernacle.
The Table of Showbread
…29″You shall make its dishes and its pans and its jars and its bowls with which to pour drink offerings; you shall make them of pure gold. 30″You shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before Me at all times. (Exodus 25)
In conclusion the Orthodox Church is the accomplishment of the Second Temple Judaism. We are the keepers of the Temple service in all our churches. We are the keepers of the Orthodox Way the Right Path who brings us to salvation and the exaltation of our beings in the Heavens. We love our brothers Jews and we look forward to discuss with respect our common roots.
As a seed grows and develops her roots the tree grow to what is different from the appearance of the roots but by the dna we know that the fruits of this tree comes from the roots that we do not see anymore. Ancient Judaism is the root of all Monotheistic Religion and the common trunk is the Messiah where the branches of the multiple churches gives us the many fruits which are the saints.
Many blessings to you!
Christian So you acknowledge that just because some people call their books “religious works” – that doesn’t mean that we need to automatically respect them (at least in the cases of Hinduism and Mormonism) – this being the case you cannot demand that we respect your Christian Scriptures
Hello YPF
Questioning Jesus claims isnt the actual issue. All things must be tested. The apostles taught to check and verify all claims regarding spiritual matters. Its totally rejecting His claims which is the issue.
The reason Jesus is so emphatic with His rebuke to the Jewish audience is because they should have known better. Being recievers of the Law, The oracles of God, they were in a unique position compared to the gentiles.
The wording dehumanised is only used by non believers. Its a word which you use and attatch to the text to strengthen your viewpoint. Its also a view which the antisemitic uses to beat Jews.
You state the claims were ridiculous, Jesus authenticated His claims dozens of times. It was this audience that Jesus took issue with.
Would you say that Adonai was dehumanising gentiles when He told Joshua, Saul to wipe certain tribes and nations, thats men, women and children, from the face of the earth?
No.
If you compare the two, a rebuke is just that, a rebuke.
Paul S . Good points!!!