Biblical Offerings vs. Christian Doctrine

Biblical Offerings versus Christian Doctrine
Christianity contends that the crucifixion of Jesus represents the culmination of the offerings described in the Jewish Bible. It is claimed that Jesus is the “sacrifice to end all sacrifices”.
Is there any truth to this Christian assertion? Let us study the Biblical offerings and see what we can learn.
One feature that is obvious in all of the Scriptural offerings is the fact that nothing remained of them, they were completely consumed. Some of the offerings were immediately burned on the altar, while others were eaten by the priests or by the bearer of the offering. Anything that remained was burned (Exodus 12:10, Leviticus 7:17). The offering itself was eradicated. The only thing that remained from the offering was the closeness to God that it generated.
When an individual walked home after having brought his or her offering in the Temple, the last thing on their mind was the animal that was burned or eaten. The destruction of the animal brought to mind the concept that everything temporal; is just that – temporal. There is no intrinsic value to anything that can be destroyed. The offering brought into focus that our only true possession is the relationship we share with the One who created all.
In short, one of the central concepts of the Biblical offerings was the idea that everything earthly – represented by the offering – has no intrinsic existence. It is only the closeness to God that we obtain through the sincere act of bringing a gift to God that is of any value. The offerings of Scripture reinforced the central concept of Scripture, that God is the absolute Master of all – while the animal that was brought as the offering represented the flimsy nature of the existence of all created beings – including life itself.
Imagine if someone were to return from having brought an offering in the Temple with a portrait of the animal that he or she had brought as an offering. Imagine further that this individual hangs this portrait in a prominent place in his or her home. This individual goes around praising the animal: “Oh what a perfect sacrifice! Completely unblemished! This offering is my best friend because through it I achieved atonement from my sins!” – It would be obvious to one and all that this individual has completely misunderstood the Biblical sacrifices. Instead of learning the lesson of the offering – that all earthly existence is but a dream – this individual attempts to exalt an example of earthly existence.
The individual in our parable is none other than the Christian theologian. The Christian theologian points to the supposed sacrifice of Jesus in order to exalt Jesus. With this doctrine, the Christian has turned the Biblical concept of sacrifice inside out. The point of the Biblical sacrifice was to emphasize the ephemeral nature of the article brought as an offering and to exalt the Creator of all. Exalting the item brought as an offering goes directly against the basic theme of the Biblical offerings.

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Yisroel C. Blumenthal

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75 Responses to Biblical Offerings vs. Christian Doctrine

  1. Greetings Pharisee Friend,
    You are right –
    “There is no intrinsic value to anything that can be destroyed.”

    According to a number of Jewish eyewitnesses, recorded in the Gospels,
    Yeshua the Jewish Messiah cannot be destroyed. He conquered death, rose from the grave, ascended to heaven, and claims He will return the same way He left.

    • Yedidiah says:

      Where was the “sacrifice” if nothing was given up? And what person or which people offered their “temporary sacrifice” of another human being and to which pagan god (since human sacrifice was an unacceptable & an abomination to the God of the Jews)?

      • Yedidiah says:

        Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there was little or no credible evidence given by a few “jewish eyewitnesses”, especially when it was stated that no signs would be given (or none could be given). There was a long history of a few Israelites & Jews every now and then following a false prophet, or a false messiah, or worshipping idols or the Baalim, and a few man-gods or “dying & rising” pagan gods, so why would Jews want to be fooled again and chase after a god their fore-fathers & mothers did not know?

        • Rising from the dead is not “extraordinary evidence”?
          Many extraordinary signs were given over the course of 3 years, with many Jewish eyewitnesses. When a few religious leaders demanded that Yeshua obey them and “do what I say right now because I said so,” Yeshua refused to perform for them.

          Yahweh’s commandment through Moses given in Deuteronomy 18 is not optional, about the Prophet like Moses that you must listen to. As the custodians of the Law of Moses, you Jews have a big responsibility that goes along with the blessings and honor.

          I see you have been obedient to the teaching of the Resurrected Yeshua given to the Church in Ephesus through the Apostle John.
          Yeshua approved their work saying:
          ” I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to apostles but are not, and have found them false.” [Revelation 2:2]

          Likewise, I commend you. I see you reject Paul the false apostle who is at the center of what today is called “Christianity”. Paal taught “love” without God, ignoring The Shema as the Most Important Commandment. Instead, Paal pushed the teaching of Rabbi Hillel, that “love your neighbor” is the most important commandment, with no mention of God.

          The Apostle Peter, the Jewish leader of the Jewish eyewitnesses who walked with Yeshua personally for over 3 years, testified that Yeshua is The Prophet Moses referred to in Deuteronomy 18. (See Acts 3:22. Peter speech is 3:12-26)

          • Yedidiah says:

            Matthew Perri on April 26, 2016 at 9:05 am
            What is “rising from the dead” evidence of? A story about “rising” is only a story & it is not evidence, much less extraordinary evidence. Who seen who “rise from the dead” & who verified their claims? No one even knows who the authors of those stories were or even in what decade or even what century that they were first written in. The story tellers disagree on many of the important details of the story, so one can’t tell if any of the authors are credible, so none can be believed without any evidence. Since it was written that the Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar was killed & was resurrected was he a god? There is much evidence that Augustus existed & ruled over many peoples, but there is little or no evidence that Jesus, as portrayed by Paul & the other apostles existed. And there is even less evidence that these disciples or apostles existed. There is no evidence of “signs” (much less “many extraordinary ones”) given to “many Jewish eyewitnesses” nor to any Roman eyewitnesses. You even admit that Jesus refused to “perform” signs to a few religious leaders, without some lame excuse that they “demanded that Yeshua obey them”. What was his or is your excuse that he would provide no evidence to others?

            I am not a Jew, so I have no “responsibility”, but, as you say Deut 18 is “not optional” to Jews, so they must not listen to a false prophet or the false prophet’s “apostles”, as you confirmed by quoting Rev 2.2 (”I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to apostles but are not, and have found them false.” But you seem to believe that only applies to Paul and not to some other apostles(who approved of Paul’s mission) nor to Jesus, (who selected Paul too to teach “love with god”). Three years? That belief is from “Paul’s Church” Fathers. And their Peter is no more credible than their Paul or their Jesus.

      • Giving up one’s life isn’t a sacrifice?

      • B”H. There is an instance where a Jewish man made a solemn oath invoking The Name, that if Hashem granted him a military victory, he would sacrifice the first of his own that he would see when he returned home. He was victorious and when he was approaching his fields the first living thing he saw was his daughter! This story can be found in sefer Shofetim (Judges). She had agreed to be sacrificed that her father’s oath to Hashem not be broken.

        • Yedidiah says:

          Start reading from the beginning of the chapter. Did the Gileadite really do what was pleasing to the Lord? Who or what was he expecting to first see on his return home? Why was he surprised & almost blaming his daughter for his “trouble”, his reckless vow? On seeing his only child, his daughter, he rent his clothes and said, “Alas, daughter! You have brought me low; you have become my troubler!”. Low & not blessed. Troubled & not willingly giving an offering. Regret for her “mistake” or for his stupid vow, he foolishly thinks he can’t take back.

          My HC study bible notes explains it this way; “The spirit of the Lord empowers Jephthah, but only after a long delay (contrast 3.10; 6.34), perhaps an echo of the Lord’s earlier unwillingness to deliver Israel (10.13–16).
          11.30–31 Jephthah’s reckless, egocentric vow reveals a tragic flaw in his character. Instead of whoever, though, Jephthah may have intended “whatever.” Early Israelites often shared their houses with livestock. Burnt offering implies a farm animal, although human sacrifice was sometimes practiced in Israel (2 Kings 16.3; Ezek 20.25–26.31; cf. Gen 22) (practiced by those who did not do what was right before the Lord & followed the ways of the pagan neighbors & former inhabitants of the land).

    • Matthew Perri So he wasn’t a sacrifice 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Dear Pharisee Friend,

        You make an interesting point that is valid in MOST cases, that QUOTE ” One feature that is obvious in all of the Scriptural offerings is the fact that nothing remained of them, they were completely consumed.”

        However, that leaves out the Scapegoat in Leviticus 16, which was NOT completely consumed, but rather driven out alive, to make atonement for the people. Wouldn’t you also consider the Scapegoat a kind of “sacrifice”?

        • Matthew Perri It is sent out into oblivion – no one remembers it 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Dear Pharisee Friend,
            Good point – as I understand it, all the people’s sins were laid on the Scapegoat, and he carried all the sins away into oblivion, so they didn’t need to be remembered any more.

            Did you know that Yeshua of the Gospels NEVER reminded any of his followers of their specific pre-conversion sins? Never, not once. Because Yeshua had power to carry them away from the people.
            Most “Christians” today don’t know this, and they certainly don’t apply this truth when it comes to talking about their own sins.
            They see their own sins the opposite of the way that God does.

            Many “big name Christians’ will boast and brag about “Oh what a terrible sinner I WAS 40 years ago”. They’ll write an autobiography to appeal to people’s carnal nature and lust for scandal, and give lots of juicy details of what the USED to do…. But if they are really trusting in Yeshua, He has already carried all those sins away. So why do they keep bringing them up? Because they are PROUD at heart of what a “Tough guy macho man Christian Bad Boy” they are. It’s profitable. Sin sells, and they want to have a “dramatic testimony” to please the crowds. Then they can claim they are being “authentic”, without having to admit to any specific sins they committed in the past 5 years…..

            And what is the theological root cause of this behavior? It’s simple. They are following the example of Paul the self-appointed Apostle to the Gentiles, rather than following the example of Yeshua the Jewish Messiah. Paul boasted about what a sinner he WAS, and he brought up the embarrassing pre-conversion sins of the people in Corinth, years after Paul abandoned the church to go do his own thing.
            But Paul never admitted to any specific sins as a “follower of Jesus.” Theoretical, general, yes – but never anything specific.

            But, of course God sees the sins of His children, and we re accountable before Him for what we do AFTER we trust in Yeshua. We don’t get a “Get out of jail free” card that gives us blanket immunity from any consequences in anything we do, if we just repeated the magic words one time at a “Crusade” in a football stadium 40 years ago.

          • Matthew Perri did the Jews remember the goat after it was sent away? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Kolyah Ben Avraham says:

            B”H. As far as certain traditions practiced thousands of years ago, without the oral tradition, the written Torah has been misunderstood by those who are not taught, or have been mislead. The sacrificial system of the Jewish people is one of those which the non-Jewish world has very often been used to justify numerous falsehoods. For instance, after presenting an animal to be used for a Sin offering, and it has been found acceptable, it is brought to the Koren who through certain prayers takes the guilt from the person and transfers that onto the animal, the animal has become the sin and the person turns their back to it and forgets all of it, the sin & the sacrifice both. To do otherwise is to act unfaithful lyrics. & in disbelief of G-d”s power to forgive & remember it no more. Therefore, if you remember the sin & the sacrifice does not your sin remain? You must turn away from the sin & the memory of it, or is your judgment better than G-d’so?

          • Yedidiah says:

            Jesus also praised the sinner in the back of the assembly, not the worshipper at the front who wanted to “face God” instead of being distracted by those other sinners in front of them & “hiding in the back”.

          • Dear Pharisee Friend
            Did the Jews remember the scapegoat?
            No, but the Jews remember a young Jewish woman after she was sacrificed:
            “From this comes the Israelite custom that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.” [Judges 11:40, see entire chapter 11]

            “Then God said, ‘Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there….'” [Genesis 22:2]

            We all remember the names of Abraham, ISAAC and Jacob after Isaac was taken to be sacrificed….

          • Kolyah Ben Avraham says:

            My apologies for any misspellings, or errors in syntax. My android is extremely petulant and has difficulty adapting to different styles of writing, especially when attempting to use phonetics.

          • bible 819 Neither of those sacrifices were for atonement 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  2. B”H an observation. From outside the camp so-to-speak….there are other factors not easily addressed in public forum. With that said, if the events of that story took place, the written records have been translated so many times, that like any tale told by word of mouth was more than likely embellished, and rewritten by men who applied their own pagan mindsets in the attempt to explain those Jewish stories to non-Jewish audiences of the Roman Empire. For modern Jews to get into their doctrinal & dogmatic argument is fraught with peril. We have more than enough to argue about in our own faith, let alone theirs. Let them argue all they want. Be an ocean of peace, once they tire of their confusions, they will come seeking to partake of the deeper stillness only a Jewish soul can give to our world. Shalom V’Ohr L’oylam my friend.

  3. Dina says:

    Matthew, it’s interesting that you use the command to sacrifice Isaac as proof that God desires human sacrifice. Perhaps you never read to the end of the story, whose point is that God rejects human sacrifice, that human sacrifice is not needed to express your love and obedience to God. God was simply testing Abraham to see how far his love of God would take him (“For now I know that you are God fearing,” Genesis 22:12).

  4. Sharbano says:

    Matthew:
    The Torah does Not use the word sacrifice for Isaac.
    Furthermore, you have really distorted the daughters of Israel lamenting four days.

    • Sharbano,
      Other Jews here have written of the need to see the whole teaching of Torah, rather then “proof-texting” favorite points with particular verses or words. I agree.

      The entire chapter 11 of Judges is quite dramatic and uncomfortable, but straightforward. What do you think I have “distorted”?

      Abel and Noah were offering animals as “sacrifices” long before all the regulations for the Tabernacle were given. And Abraham, who I understand to be father of the Jewish nation, was asked to be willing to offer his only son on Mount Moriah as proof of his love.

      To make distinctions between words like “sacrifice” “holocaust” “offering” “atonement” etc. with Abraham, as if he were a priest in the Temple, would not be appropriate. It would be missing the big picture.

      • Matthew Perri
        You have distorted the Torah because you put a doctrine in there which God explicitly refutes

        • Dear Pharisee Friend,
          Your article here about “Christian Missionaries” who ” point to other blood offerings mentioned in the Five Books of Moses in their effort to establish a theory of the “centrality of the sacrifices” is insightful.

          I believe that you have correctly identified a “fundamental flaw” here, namely making the act of the “sacrifice” the center, rather than the God revealed in the Law and the Prophets.

          The root of this fundamental flaw, again, is Paul the self-appointed Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul “preached Christ crucified” rather than Yeshua the Jewish Messiah resurrected, and the teachings, example, and character of Yeshua, in agreement with the Law and the Prophets.
          Paul turned the extended Passover Seder Dinner to remember HIM into a ritual with a thimble of grape juice and a cracker in a huge impersonal auditorium to “proclaim His death until He comes.”

          And so, instead of teaching about the God of Israel and His Messiah Yeshua, the church is constantly “proclaiming his death”, especially in the Roman Catholic Church with the Mass and the Crucifix. This is true in the mainstream “Christian Church” too, although more under the surface, theologically.

          I think it is generally accepted historical fact that the original church was entirely Jewish, yet by the end of the Second Century, it was overwhelmingly Gentile. I recall someone saying that for the first two centuries, the cross was NOT used as the central symbol or focus in the church. It was there, yes, an essential part of the story of the Messiah, but in the background.

      • Sharbano says:

        There’s more to the story of Avraham than some mere offering. Remember G-d had already told him that it was this son, your only son, who would become the father of a mighty nation. Avraham believed and trusted G-d in that promise. NOW, what do we have. Now G-d tells him to offer up his son, the son who was to be the father of a nation. How can he be a father of a nation when there are no children to continue on. Avraham’s trust, his Emunah was on such a high level that he would do what G-d asks of him, even the offering of his “only son”. Anyone else would probably have doubted the promise but not Avraham. THIS is why he is called a G-d fearing man.

        • “There’s more to the story of Avraham than some mere offering.”
          Amen- that’s for sure.
          Do you think it’s a coincidence that Yeshua offered His life on the same mountain?

          • robert2016 says:

            Your hands are full of blood!
            16Wash and make yourselves clean.
            Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
            stop doing wrong.
            17Learn to do right; seek justice.
            Defend the oppressed.a
            Take up the cause of the fatherless;
            plead the case of the widow.

            ………………………………………………………………………………………

            if they started to do right, then would animal sacrifices be acceptable and atone for sins?
            if yes, then why would the author think jesus’ blood is more preferable?

      • Jim says:

        Matthew,

        It is worth noting that when you are challenged on your equating Jesus with one sacrifice you go on to another. When R’ Blumenthal points out that the scapegoat is not remembered, you are unable to answer that challenge, so you move on to a new sacrifice. And it is worth noting that you wish us to ignore details like what kind of sacrifice is being made, but would have us instead look at the big picture. The reason I think this is important is because it shows that you are not looking at the big picture at all, but are instead playing a game of “Where’s Jesus”.

        This game is not of your own invention, and I do not blame you for the great error you are making. You have been misled by the Church, which has unfortunately been playing the game for a long time. They have not attempted to see the big picture, but instead have been trying to make their own picture, a mosaic by removing a piece of the big picture from here and there and fitting those pieces together to make their own picture, a picture of Jesus.

        This is, of course, what you have done in your discussion of sacrifices. You take whatever details seem to support your thesis and discard the rest. The rest do not contribute to the picture of Jesus that the Church has taught you to construct, so they must be unimportant. If you cannot find the memory of the scapegoat to be important, you will find the memory from somewhere else, just not having to do with atonement and not fitting the need. But, it’s a memory of a sacrifice of sorts, so it will have to do. You say it contributes to the big picture, but obviously it only services propping up the picture of Jesus.

        This game is not of your origination. The Church has been most dishonest in its use of scripture. It will take one verse that supposedly indicates that the Messiah will be betrayed and ignore the one in the same passage that has the same figure confessing his sin. They only apply the verse that fits their narrative. They ignore the big picture. Hosea 11 speaks of the Exodus. Matthew would the first verse to be about the Messiah. He just ignores the big picture. Where’s Jesus? In part of verse one, but not the whole of verse one and certainly not in the rest of the chapter. Matthew will make a new picture from Tanach by snipping away the inconvenient parts.

        I hope you understand why the Church has taught you to ignore the details that make up the big picture. A very good reason exists why it has played this game of “Where’s Jesus”. Jesus is not the topic of Torah. The Messiah, whomever he is, is not the topic of Torah. He is not our focus. If I had to guess, I would say that more time is spent on Shabbat than on the Messiah.

        If Jesus were the topic of Torah, they would not have to create prophecies about him in a creative gerrymandering of the verses. If Isaiah wrote of the Messiah being born of a virgin, they would not have to omit the second-half of the prophecy or the context altogether. If blood were necessary for the forgiveness of sins, they would neither have to rewrite Leviticus 17:11, nor would they have to inject blood into the merciful act of God’s clothing Adam and Eve. If the Messiah were to come out of Egypt, they would not have to truncate Hosea’s prophecy. These creative uses of Tanach are a testimony to the dearth of material to be found that can fit Jesus. The fact that they need to abuse scripture shows how little straightforward material they can find in support of their doctrine.

        And so they have trained you. The details you employ and ignore from a particular sacrifice are not because of the big picture. The Torah does not make the Messiah the big picture whatsoever. Rather, they are the ones that will seem to support your picture of Jesus. But if you have to cut around scripture, you are quite definitely making a much small picture, a distorted picture. I would call it a mosaic, but there is nothing Mosaic about it. The Church has taught you to ignore those passages that do not fit their notion of Jesus, to make a game of scripture. They have taught you eisegesis, to read your own ideas into Torah. Your life will be much richer if you abandon this game and read Torah of the ideas of HaShem. Then you will begin to see the big picture.

        Jim

        • Kolyah Ben Avraham says:

          B”H. If they won’t listen to the Nazareth, and do everything other than what he supposedly taught, they will never listen to you or I, not matter if true or not. They follow an image of a person they were taught. And, look what has come about. Let’s go forward. If they come to us later we’Lloyd still have room. No matter what they may believe, if they be as righteous before Hashem as Notch, He will protect them.

          • Yedidiah says:

            The “Nazareth” failed to be a “messiah” to the very people he was supposedly a “messiah” for. When the “thousands” of mostly normal Galilean Jews came to hear him, they (not just the religious Jews)?rejected his pagan, non-Torah teachings (from a misguided messiah wanna be who was too “hard to follow”) & whose story is modeled on the pagan rising-dying sun-god & man-gods.

        • Jim
          You wrote to me, quote: “They [the Church] have taught you eisegesis, to read your own ideas into Torah.”

          I must acknowledge that this is true to a great degree. There is a common Evangelical refrain that “all Scripture points to Jesus”, which simply is not true. Song of Solomon is not about Jesus and the Church – it’s tasteful but erotic love poetry – Peter Gabriel’s “Sledgehammer” set to harp music.

          The tendency to take Scriptures written later, which have less authority and importance, and read these ideas into the Scripture given by God earlier, is common. It’s very common in the Church – but you do it too!

          I don’t question the authority of the Book of Genesis, but rather the opposite. Just as Torah is above Nabi’im and Kethuvim in authority and importance, Genesis SHOULD BE above the other 4 Books of Moses in importance.

          As you noted, it seems likely that Gospel of Mark was a core record of Jesus’ ministry, (perhaps based on Peter’s testimony,) and Matthew built on that, filling out the picture. So we have “Matthew’s Gospel.” As I’ve noted, the only 3 Apostles who “wrote” Scripture are Matthew, John, and Peter. And the Orthodox Church today still theoretically holds up the 4 Gospels above all other Books of the New Testament. But then later, Paul the self-appointed “Apostle to the Gentiles” comes along and writes a bunch of letters, and reads his own ideas into the Gospels, and into Torah.

          I believe that the way Matthew “wrote” his Gospel is a somewhat like how Moses “wrote” Torah. Moses was not present in the Garden of Eden, or on Noah’s Ark, or at the Tower of Babel, or with Abraham, or with Joseph. There must have been some sort of “Book of the Patriarchs” that Moses had access to also.

          We should not read the ideas written by Moses in his “other” 4 Books into the Book of Genesis. We should not impose the teachings of Moses about marriage/divorce in Deuteronomy 24 onto Genesis 1 & 2. We should not analyze the actions of Abel and Noah and Abraham when they make their “sacrifices” as if they were High Priests serving in the Temple. All those fine distinctions between sacrifice, offering, atonement, sacrificial lamb, scapegoat, etc. didn’t exist in the time of the Patriarchs. It’s possible that you have been trained to obsessively analyze the complicated “Mosaic system” and ignore our God, who first revealed Himself in Genesis.

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  6. Kolyah ben Avraham says:

    B”H…..you suggested the was no reference in the Hebrew Scriptures pertaining to human sacrifice. Willingly, or unwittingly, mistakenly, or otherwise is not my point.
    My point was simply that a young woman willingly gave her life, so that her father’s oath be kept. It was his own vow, unspecifically made which was the origin of the difficulty. Which is a lesson for the reader that we should pay very close attention to what we say when invoking The Name in an oath.
    Yitzak was willing to be a sacrifice, yet HaShem provided a substitute, having stayed Avraham’s hand at the last second
    But in this other case, HaShem did not intervene. Human sacrifice is within the Hebrew Bible. Not condoned, yet these are two examples. I am not saying this to give credence to the Christian religion. But an erroneous presumption needed clarification that human sacrifice was purely pagan in scope. Todah v’Shalom

  7. Fred says:

    Okay, then, how about we say “ritual human sacrifice”? Offering up one’s life for the greater good is common through out history. It is found in every war and Islam makes a daily habit of it. But saying that God ever commanded a ritual human sacrifice to save mankind from sin and be granted eternity in heaven is totally pagan. Even Avraham’s command to “sacrifice” Isaac was a test for Avraham, for God to prove to Avraham (and Avraham to himself) that he was still a man of faithfulness to God even after his lapse into doubt because of the Ishmael mistake. It had nothing to do with a human sacrifice for atonement of willful sin.

    • Kolyah ben Avraham says:

      B”H….. . I do not agree with Church doctrines or dogmas as to the purpose gor what transpired in the case of the Nazarene. There may have several reasons for his crucifiction.
      I can say however you may believe, or disbelieve the story, that a king represents his people, and there were occasions where HaShem ordered His Prophets to act in some very horrible ways, telling them that these actions were of themselves prophetic. Ezekiel lay naked in the street cooking his food with dried excrement, for instance.
      If you examine the history of the Jewish people, looking at them as a single unified body, or nation, everything which had befallen the Nazarene has happened to the Jews.
      They were falsely accused, and betrayed by Jewish Sicarri (in Greek of that period; Yehudas Y’Sicariot, transposes to English as Judas Iscariot!!!), they were given a thorny crown of Shame by the Roman Emperor, when the Temple was destroyed. Their death blow came by way of Roman Spears at a Rib of Mountains called, Masada, and it was the Roman 10th Legion who killed the nation of Judea there.
      The house of David had fallen after Babylon had conquered Israel. And after a little more than 3,000 yrs, the nation came out of his tomb as the gates of Treblinka, Bergen-Belsen, and Auschwitz rolled open. Yet they had been so badly beaten they were barely recognizable as a nation.
      Then they Ascended to their rightful place, as the flag of Israel was raised over the city of David once more in 1967 the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled. So go ahead tell me ther’s no other purpose than what Rome has had to say.
      The Salvation of Yahweh LIVES IN THEM. How can we say this? In a name, we can say this: Yah-Shuah Lives In Them. Can you See yet?
      A King Represents His People.
      (Now go back and re-read the story about what Paul Saw on the Road to Damascus. Shalom al Lechem. (The disciples hid the body, in the Afikoman of Pesach, have you found it yet?)

      • Fred says:

        No offense, and maybe its because I’m tired, but your post seems incoherent to me.

        • Trfon Athnos says:

          King David lived from 1040 something to 970 something bce, and the camps were liberated I believe in what 1948 ce? I’d say that roughly equates to 3,000 yrs, give or take. As to my metaphor of Masada being a Rib of mountains, it is a mesa at the far end of mountainous ridges, the Roman tradition of the spear follows an earlier tradition. The Roman 10th Legion was out of Jerusalem, and was involved at the battle of Masada, they had surrounded it and tried to starve them out before attempting an assault. What happened to the Nazarene, according to the story may have a prophetic intent. Prophecy is not an exact science. As I gave an example of the Prophet Ezekiel laying in the street cooking his food with feces, was a prophetic act, but no exact dates were given as to when, nor exactly how it would take place. The genre of apocryphal, used in Daniel, Ezekiel, and John’s Apocalypse (Revelation) are also inexact in our ability to comprehend. Why else would there be so many denominations, if everyone agreed with a single interpretation? For me, I believe that the Jewish people, and the modern state of Israel are the evidence that the Passion may have actually happened, including the Resurrection. Since Israel was Resurrected, the one who represented them all , their king must have been resurrected if as he’d stated, for a sign. Some will understand, but most will not, was what he’d said (I am paraphrasing) but in general Israel was falsely accused by Jewish assasin/betrayers, Jews loyal to the Imperial govt of Rome, yehudi y’sicarii (Hebrew), transposition to Greek of that period yields then to English Juda Iscariot. The Romans believed them, and the result was the destruction of the Temple, and a mass slaughter. The Jewish People fled N, S, E, & W, the 4 cardinals, there is the symbol of the Cross. As a nation they had been crucified. Whether anyone agrees is not important really, but I believe in the Jewish People, and I believe in Israel. I also happen to believe it possible that Elian Gonzalez is Jesus’ NEW NAME (Rev 3:12, 19: 10 – 13). Blessings and have a great day

      • LarryB says:

        KBA
        As Werner Erhard use to say, I found it. “The first ones to use a name of Jesus something like “Yahshuah” were Renaissance occultists.”

  8. Fred says:

    “They were falsely accused, and betrayed by Jewish Sicarri …. they were given a thorny crown of Shame by the Roman Emperor…”

    Were not given a crown of any kind or mocked as a king.You are making a false equivalency.

    “Their death blow came by way of Roman Spears at a Rib of Mountains called, Masada, and it was the Roman 10th Legion who killed the nation of Judea there.”

    1- Jesus’s death was not by the spear according to the NT. He was already dead and the spear confirmed it. According to NT, Jesus just “decided to die” when he “gave up the ghost” and said “Into thy hands I commend my spirit”.

    2- Masada is not a “rib of mountains”, it is a mesa; a single mountain.

    3-Finally, according to my understanding, the 10th legion did not kill the Jews on Masada. The Sicarri rebels committed suicide as the legion was about to break through, after Rome used Jewish slave labor to build the assault ramp. You are saying that the Sicarri betrayed Israel, but saying that the Sicarri were killed by Rome on Masada due to the Sicarri betraying them. So the Sicarri betrayed themselves to Rome? This is why your post seems incoherent.

    Nevertheless, another false equivalency on several levels.

    “The house of David had fallen after Babylon had conquered Israel. And after a little more than 3,000 yrs, the nation came out of his tomb as the gates of Treblinka, Bergen-Belsen, and Auschwitz rolled open. ”

    Israel fell to Babylonian around 600 BCE. You are 400 hundred years short of your “prophetic” type/anti-type. Maybe you could change the length of a year to make the math work, like they do with Daniel 9? Still don’t think you could make up the missing 400, though. Maybe shorten the 7 day week to 5 days or cut a couple of months off each year?

    • bible819 says:

      Christ turned the world upside down. In fact, we have and continue to bring salvation to ends of the earth.

      You turned away from God as the Old Testament clearly spells out.

      Right with God >>>Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. 7Then I said, “Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me.

      >>>>>>> I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’ To a nation which did not call on My name. 2″I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,<<<<

      Yes, Christ brought all people to him. 1 Hebrew! I will gladly Follow him and Praise him to the Glory of the Father's name. Your law makes sin relevant which is written on my heart.

      We who have accepted Christ (Jews, any other Skin) have replaced Judaism.

      We have brought Salvation. 2000 years is a long time for 1 religion to take over.

      Your ancestors Tried God, made him Jealous, and then rejected his Messiah.

      Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds

      • bible819 says:

        Right with God- Y/N

        , Isaiah, NO
        Jeremiah, NO
        Lamentations,
        Ezekiel, NO
        Daniel, NO
        Hosea, NO
        Joel, NO
        Amos, NO
        Obadiah, NO
        Jonah,
        Micah, NO
        Nahum, NO
        Habakkuk, NO
        Zephaniah, NO
        Haggai, NO
        Zechariah, NO
        Malachi, NO

        • bible819 says:

          As you know, After that- Christ until Now. The only difference is this- We follow the Law but have accepted his Messiah. No difference but that.

          • Trfon Athnos says:

            It makes no difference to me what you believe, it is what one does, that shall be known about each of us. Are you a peacemaker? Do you give glory to the Creator? Do you judge others, unequally? Christianity claims, “We are under Grace, and Not under Law.” Yet, to be hateful of others who do not agree with you is not something Jesus would have condined.
            The great majority of Nazis were either German Lutheran, or Roman Catholic. They were led to believe Jesus and his Church wanted them to kill all the Jews and set up a 3rd Imperial State. By definition, the German word Reich, means exactly that. If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it. May the Creator forgive. Gentiles have NEVER been under The Law of Moses. You don’t even understand your own words. Is it any surprise that many reject the Greco-Roman myth based dogma & doctrines? Let the Maker be the judge. To me Torah is brand spanking new every morning that I am given the gift of life. A sacrifice must have personal value to be of any use. The same principle can be applied to all aspects of life. Do you take the blessings of. The 3rd cup of wine, and the broken matzah att a Passover seder for granted? Do you really know the significance deeply and personally? If you seek Him with your whole heart, it wouldn’t matter if you were in a golden cathedral, or in the sub-level of an ancient sewer. You would Know His Love for All of us. May He Bless you with Clarity of the Mind & Heart this day and every day. Baruk HaShem

          • bible819 says:

            Fred and I have been going back in forth for awhile.

            My God is Hebrew, because salvation is from the Jews.

            As it written in the new testament, Jews have priority then us gentiles.

            As far as the Germans are concerned; there were 800 hundred pastors that were torched for speaking out against the worship of Hitler.

            If you truly believe in Christ the Hebrew then you know God’s inheritance is not to be cursed.

            In doing so, God’s 1 and only Son, the First Born of the resurrection, is indeed My savior.

            With that said, how they called themselves blessed with eternal life is beyond the Bible. I can’t find in scripture where it supports Satan’s movement.

            In supporting this, that is why Evangelical Christians are in full support of Israel in what ever they do.

            Lastly, you have understand we believe this Hebrew was the Savior of the world. Once and for all the Passover Lamb and ending of all sacrifice through dehumanization and blood on the cross.

            I love and will stand for my Savior until I see him.

            God Bless you.

          • Trfon Athnos says:

            B”H…again, as it was with Paul on the road to Damascus, he was persecuting his fellow Jews, and it was then that he saw the Light. It blinded him. For although Jesus had ascende many years prior, it was his voice who called out to him, “Saul! Saul! Why persecutest thou Me?”
            This is to say that Paul saw The blinding Light in the fact that he had been persecuting his own people, and that he saw thr truth that He was In Them Spiritually.
            When you finally awaken to THAT, you will SEE Him in The Light of The Jewish People. They, like him practice denial, they deny the ‘Self’, by denying themselves, they put the flesh to death, staying alive through Spirit.
            What has kept them alive all these years, was not of their own doing, but by the Spirit & Power of The Word of HaShem, the very same that raised Lazarus, and also The Nazarene.
            From the dead, has raised Israel from his death.
            What the world is afaid of, is that if they See this Light, then the Messiah will judge the nations by the way they have treated His People. It is written, “…for Judah is His plumbline by which He will judge the nations.” A further reference can be found in the book of Revelation chptr. 7, 14, and 15. No Church teaches how to sing The Song of Moses, but HaAzinu has been sung in synagogues and in Jewish homes since the Exodus.

        • Dina says:

          I do not wish to talk to Bibbles because it’s hard to talk to someone who has fingers in both his ears and shouting “nyah nyah” all the while. I therefore address my comments to the audience.

          In the Book of Numbers, God repeatedly expresses His displeasure and even, one might say, His disgust, with the Children of Israel because of their rebellious ways and complaining nature. Yet when a gentile tries to curse them, God won’t let him say anything other than sing the praises of His people. To his utter consternation, Balaam cannot utter a single word of criticism against Israel. You would think that God would allow it given the behavior of His children. But no.

          Let this be a lesson to all you gentiles who are fond of quoting the rebukes of the prophets to us. Our holy prophets were given the task of setting us straight, but if you are not a Hebrew prophet, then beware. God does not wish you to criticize His kingdom of priests and holy nation. For He curses those who curse us and blesses those who bless us.

          Just something to keep in mind.

          • LarryB says:

            Bless you Dina:)
            I am truly baffled when certain people come here and point out Israelis errors when they did not listen to g-d like the current Parsha where Moses strikes the rock instead of hitting it. Yet they would have everyone follow them and their teachings. Makes no sense. The first commandment is fairly clear, no other gods, nothing, nada.

          • Kolyah ben Avraham says:

            Baruk HaShem… ..actually, the 1st mitzvah is: ” Be fruitful and multiply.” Then it says, to take for yourself a wife, and the two shall become one flesh, etc.
            Now, I’m not certain if the order is important, because, if it is…we’re instructed to have lots of sex BEFORE we get married. So enjoy yourself, have fun. In doing Torah, I believe HaShem wants us to have Joy, and laughter, and an excitement for the Life we were given.
            Christianity has called the Torah, an ‘Old’ testament; they were never told the truth. Torah is Life, it is brand NEW to me, every time I awaken from slumber, No one has ever been given any guarantee of waking up in the morning. Taking Life for granted is breaking the guidelines for a Joy filled Love filled Life, to never be so Awe- stricken by the fact that we were put on this world to experience all Life has to offer, shame, guilt and self- loathing, and you tell me that I should be full of remorse?
            You have no idea how much the Creator Loves each and every one of us. L’CHAIM !

          • LarryB says:

            Duh, that would be strike the rock instead of talking to it.

          • bible819 says:

            That’s good that you acknowledge what the Prophets tried to do. How much more the Messiah, better yet Why would you trust your ancestors’ judgement with the Messiah? You might say, why would I trust the Hebrew writers either? I trust the Old Testament Scripture due to the truth; God’s Word doesn’t depend on us and is unchained!!! I know that the Savior of the World is non other than God. Yes, Yeshua is Lord that walked Humble with the Father. God is spirit. We are flesh. Gods spirit instructing his Son is true love. You hold on to Moses but yet he didn’t enter the promise Land because he didn’t speak to the Rock but struck it. Now my Messiah spoke to everything just like his Father. Amen Amen. He understood how God commanded the world into existence. You die everyday with your sin. Just like Adam died when he ate the forbidden fruit. Christ made us Live with his innocent body. Death or Life. Sin is death. Life is not Sin. I choose life. Key question- How would you tell if the Word of God came to a person?

            The law made Israel of aware of what sin was-

            You need Grace because you sin everyday including every Priest or Prophet.

            Yes Dina when you tasted the Truth it is hard to believe that God’s love is contingent on Do’s and Do nots.

            Abraham walked by faith and not the Law. Yeshua walked by Faith. Adam died we all died.

            Yeshua was perfect. God only accepts perfection. animals are not desired but the blood did count for something.

            Perfect blood, versus Adam sinfulness.

            I’m happy that the 1 God has reconciled us to Him.

            As Dina said, I preach. The Good News indeed.

            What do hold true in you heart about God when you establish these blogs?

            There is a reason Christianity stands Today. Btw Evangelicals love Israel. Our Savior and the Gospel Super Apostles are Hebrew.

            The Truth of the Word is sharper than any double edged sword.

            The Chief Cornerstone.

          • LarryB says:

            Kolyah Ben Avraham
            just for fun, lets look at it.
            The first commandment seems to be directed to the fish and fowl, be fruitful and multiply.
            Then he creats man and woman.
            You said “Now, I’m not certain if the order is important, because, if it is…we’re instructed to have lots of sex BEFORE we get married”
            “Actually, He doesn’t say to have lots of sex before marriage either, he doesn’t mention marriage at this point.
            “”And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the sky and over all the beasts that tread upon the earth.””
            You also said “”You have no idea how much the Creator Loves each and every one of us””
            I agree, how can the finite ever understand the infinite. I’ts a great point. But we should try our very best.

          • Kolyah ben Avraham says:

            B”H……the chapter & verse numbers were not inserted into the texts of the Bible until the time of the Masoretes. “Be fruitful and multiply, was a transmitted directive into the DNA, of which as Adam was sleeping, the Maker pulled a strand of RNA and flipped it over making women….so here’s a question, before a single RIB-o-nucleic acid was reversed, was the Creator telling Man to go screw himself silly?
            Okay, quite crude.
            One thing’s for certain, it says that Adam was put into a deep sleep when the Creator made women, and ever since Man has not had a moment’s rest.
            Then finally, it says, Man shall leave his mother, and father and take to himsel a wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
            This illustrates that Man had to be taught how to have sex. When G-d told him to be fruitful & multiply, he didnt know what a woman was, much less what to do when he was given one.
            He must have been sooo frustrated, seeing all the animals goin at it, no wonder he had to be put to sleep.
            For a long time, rabbis had actually wrestled with those intimate details, like how can G-d tell Man to reproduce, when women had not existed yet? Many thoughts and debates happened just over this.
            One, opinion was that Man was asexual, like the worms. Another suspected we were all hermaphrodites before being made separate. Settling that debate, a third rabbi suggested the other two go to bed, and sleep off the wine they’d been drinking.
            Shalom

          • Jim says:

            Bible819,

            You write that you believe in the Bible because it is true. This statement is, I am sorry to say, absolutely meaningless. You have side-stepped the issue. The question remains, “How do you know its true?” And this question is about the same as, “Why do you trust the Bible?” Everyone would agree that if the Bible is true that it should be trusted, so the question is what makes you believe it is true (or trustworthy). Because the Christian and the Jew agree that the Tanach is true, the question is really only how can we know if the NT is true.

            On this question, you cannot dismiss as readily as you would like the testimony of the Jewish people. According to Deuteronomy 4, you can see that God set up the Jewish people as His witnesses. It is they who preserved the knowledge of God in the world. It is they who preserved the Torah both in its written form and its practice through their very lives and history. It is they who attested to the prophets and kept their necessary works in tact for thousands of years.

            And I know you will say that Jews also preserved the New Testament. But this is not true. It was not preserved by the Jewish people. Those who canonized the NT had no authority from Torah to do so. Remember that the NT was not codified by the Jews who are supposed to have written it. No, it was largely canonized by non-Jews, Romans and such. These did not have the authority of the Jewish judges; it had not been ceded to them. Nor did they have the requisite knowledge. To the contrary, they codified them only because those books appealed to them.

            Nor does it matter much that the authors of much of the NT were Jewish, or are thought to be at any rate. It is not every Jewish book that has the weight of the prophets, nor could it be. Your own argument hinges on the idea that not every Jew is correct just by virtue of being a Jew. If that were the case, you would listen to the testimony of the Witness Nation and reject the claims of the Church, the former having the greater weight of Jewish people behind it.

            In fact, you should have listened to their testimony. They were entrusted the Torah. They were entrusted the Prophets. And they were entrusted with the knowledge that God is alone, one and not three, and that none is beside Him. They are the bearers of the truth, according to your beliefs, and therefore you should heed them.

            Moreover, you should know that Torah was given to a nation, that is to say, a community of people. It is not for each person to decide for himself. Difficult cases are to be brought to the supreme Jewish court, as per Deuteronomy 17. And the community is to follow their teachings and their judgments. Please read vv. 8-13 and notice that Torah tells us to follow their instructions and that one may not follow his own opinion. Any society wherein each person acts according to his own opinion will soon fall, for no law exists in such a place.

            So, if a Christian says, “Well, the disciples were Jewish,” that may be nice, but it is ultimately of no import. Their testimony does not determine who is a prophet. They were not judges. (In fact, they were largely ignorant of the Torah.) They were not entitled to push their opinion upon others, lacking both the authority and knowledge requisite to issue rulings on such matters.

            Consider this as well, if it please you, that the Church does not understand the criteria for establishing a prophet. When the Church claims that Jesus was “a prophet like Moses” they show they do not understand the passage at all. You will often find a Christian saying that Jesus predicted the downfall of Jerusalem before it happened, and this proved that he was a prophet, if not by itself, then with the miracles he performed, especially the resurrection.

            But I must confess, for some time, something in Deuteronomy 18 has been bothering me. I am a slow thinker, so you will have to forgive me. I am sure that it has already occurred to you and hopefully the solution occurred to you as well, but you have not wholly applied it yet. Deuteronomy 18:18 tells us that when God sends a prophet, he is to be heeded. And if the man is not a prophet, he should be put to death. And then the question is asked how the people will know when someone is not a prophet. This is a strange question.

            Yes, it makes sense to know who is a false prophet so that he can be put to death. But the test if relatively simple, if the man’s words do not come to pass, he is not a prophet of God. This does not seem to need to be stated. And in fact, the reverse question seems much more important: How will we know if a person is a prophet? After all, we are supposed to heed the words of the prophet, so we need to identify who is one so that we can follow his words. That seems much more important than knowing who is not one.

            The answer to this problem, I believe, is that one will not know if a prophet is a prophet for sure, just because a prediction comes true, or because he performs a miracle. Someone might state that x will happen and it happens, but it could be a lucky guess. It does not mean for sure that one is a prophet. But for sure, you know if he fails, then he is not a prophet. That test has less ambiguity. Now I am no Torah scholar, so I may be wrong on why this question and why not the other, and I may be wrong on the explanation. I am only a baby. (And I am not even Jewish.)

            However, if I am correct why the Torah asks the one question and not the other, the Church has a big problem. Even if Jesus did predict the fall of Jerusalem, that would not mean for certain that he was a prophet. Even his miracles would not ensure that Jesus was a prophet. Indeed, as has been discussed many times on this blog before, Deuteronomy 13 teaches that a false prophet may perform miracles and make great predictions.

            Yet the Church is making a simple error in logic. It seems that the Church says that if the test to know if one is not a prophet is that his predictions fail, then if his predictions come true, one is a prophet. However, this is faulty logic. Just because failure to come true means we have a false prophet, the opposite outcome does not automatically mean we have a true prophet. The appeal to Jesus’ prediction of the fall of Jerusalem (assuming he said it) is not enough to establish him as a prophet. The fact that the Church believes it does prove he is a prophet shows their lack of Torah knowledge.

            Because this comment is already quite long, I shall truncate it here. But allow me to reiterate, the assertion that something is true does not make it actually true. One does not trust a politician just because he insists his words are true; how much less one who claims to speak for God. Moreover, the Church did not have the authority to declare Jesus a prophet. If you trusted the testimony of the Jewish people regarding the Prophets of Tanach, you are obligated to trust them on the prophecy of Jesus, because you have already acknowledged their authority came from God. And in that same vein, Christian have insufficient proof that Jesus was a prophet. Pointing the fall of Jerusalem would not prove Jesus was a propet.

            Jim

          • bible819 says:

            Israel takes pride in the Prophets that they didn’t believe face to face. For example,even One who spoke to God face to face- was nearly stoned numerous times. *** Moses begged God not to wipe out all of Israel and start over. If Moses couldn’t get through to them then the Messiah would have no chance. If he proposed faith rather then the written code that they broke; remember they didn’t pass the Law test. God gave them an easier provision- faith.

            Israel has been waiting for a Messiah to restore them. They expect Israel to reign over the world. Much like the reign of Solomon. But if look closely at Solomon who had too much wealth; he turned away from God.

            God wants acknowledge of him and a circumcised heart. The Law made us conscious of sin. But Abraham had the 1st covenant, which was established by Faith which is true Righteousness. ***********

            Point being, Israel was lost in God’s eyes. Remember, God is for his own Glory. Not for the Glory of Israel. When they turned away to be like the other nations, God was forgot about. How perfect to send the Messiah into world to be denied but to gain recognition of the Father by the whole world. The world knows of Christ and thus know the Laws. Israel and Law was non existent after the temple was destroyed. Even today they are embanked on all sides. Peace has not been attained.

            To say the Church had no authority for write the Bible by other Hebrews. What would make you think the Elders, Priests, Pharisees were right with God to make that Judgement after they turned away? As the old testament testifies to my statement (past the Torah), Israel’s relationship with God didn’t stop there(Torah). As David was promised a descendant- Isaiah and the Psalms gave the perfect picture of who would reign. God tried to be recognized with Israel in the promise land, but they turned away. God gave understanding the other people he made on earth when his Son was crucified for all even his own inheritance. Therefore God’s fame is not contingent on anyone. We all know the Law because of Christ.

            When the Temple returns, then animal sacrifices will again continue. The priest for himself, and the sins of the people. Year after Year. But this Time the sacrifice will be abolished by the Lawless one.

            To Glory of the Father they will look upon the 1 they have pierced*** “God will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of (grace and of supplication.)

            He revealed himself to those who didn’t know him.

            No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me. Amen

          • Dina says:

            Audience, please realize that Bibs thinks God is a liar. God promised that He would never abandon Israel and that His covenant with Israel is eternal. I cited many sources in Scripture to support this. But Bibs says God replaced the Jews with amazing, spirit-filled people like him.

            Replacement theology is a time-honored Christian doctrine that, just be aware, leads right into vicious anti-Semitism. The way Bibs writes about Jews, why would anyone want to have anything to do with them?

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            I guess God’s scripture is anti-Semitic? Are your saying that Israel was not disobedient? Have you read Isaiah and thereafter?
            What was Daniel’s prayer?

            I gave you scripture that you never address.

            What does the Scripture Say?
            Isaiah
            Jeremiah 30:11
            Ezekiel 25:7
            Hosea 11:9
            Amos 9:8
            God will not completely destroy Israel. Which= Gods inheritance

            and again it says

            Isaiah 10:22
            Though your people be like the sand by the sea, Israel, only a remnant will return.

            What does that mean?

            ****My Savior is (Hebrew)Christ- did come in the Flesh; that was in the very nature of his Father which is God over all. Amen.

            As you I told you Dina- you have to read the entire Book.

          • Dina says:

            You demand that I address your scriptural citations while ignoring mine. Honest debate with you is impossible because, according to your own admission, you are here to preach and not to listen. That’s why I’m not even going to respond to your comments.

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            I understand.

            I come with God’s Word that is sharper than any double edge sword.

          • Sharbano says:

            You come with G-d’s word. THat is pretty amusing. No doubt you are guided by the same fallible spirit that guided Stephen.

          • Dina says:

            Need I say more, folks?

      • “Christ turned the world upside down. In fact, we have and continue to bring salvation to ends of the earth.”

        funny that flesh and bone christ had less success but the unknown european who appears with holes in his hands and feet has far more success? or is it just exaggeration?
        flesh and bone christ never told the non-jewish gentile dog that her, her daughter and her people should receive news on how to be saved from the wrath of yhwh. she just gets WASTE which falls on the ground near the children’s feet.

        christ vs the pagan sects in first 2 hundred years of christianity

        quote:

        Moreover, we know from unambiguous archaeological evidence that paganism continued to thrive, with virtually no interruption from Christians, throughout the first and second and most of the third centuries.

        so pagans were thriving while the european ghost with holes in his hands and feet couldn’t compete with pagan competitors.

        everyone knows that 300-400 years later is too late .

        for you to boast about “turning world upside down” with blood, three gods in one, original sin and all other pagan stuff, then that is too late. god in flesh was unsuccessful

        • bible819 says:

          I’m South America or Europe didn’t know the Law before Christ came. That is a fact. What religion do they follow now?

          • bible819 says:

            Mr. Heathcliff,

            What type of influence has Judaism had on the World?

            I would say that Islamic nations hate Israel. Including many other socialist nations.

            Evangelical Christians love Israel because the Christ. Relevancy****
            _________________________________________________________

            God has always used FLESH and BONE to say his WORD? Yes

            For Example: Say to Israel this is what the Sovereign Lord Says? Yes

            Has God always wanted a Circumcised heart rather than burnt offerings? Yes

            Abraham believed and therefore he was accredited righteousness. Is Faith and belief work hand in hand with each other? Yes

            Did we Die with Adam? Yes

            We can come to the conclusion that.

            1. Faith is Righteousness
            2. Circumcised Heart is what the Father wants
            3. God used flesh to speak his Word
            4, God doesn’t desire Sacrifice but Life is in the Blood***.

            Nothing above you can dispute that comes from the Bible.

            Now What did Christ Preach in the Flesh?

            Faith, Circumcision of the heart, Said that the Father spoke through him (Hmmm. The prophets said the same-thing YOU KNOW>>> God spoke through them), God didn’t want sacrifice.

            Conclusion-

            Like Israel you either believe the Word of God spoken through the Prophets and through his Son or not?

            Or remain in Death Like the Fleshly Adam.

            I believe in the Father and Son activity in which is thought by the Father, Word of the Son, manifested by the spirit. In other words The Father controls every aspect that is establish with at least 2 witnesses.

          • “I’m South America or Europe didn’t know the Law before Christ came. That is a fact. What religion do they follow now?”

            europe knows man worship and it uses the torah to prove man worship. i can introduce the torah to a village in india and using the “2 powers in heaven” argument make justification for calling out to different forms of god.

            knowing about the law means jack. your god yhwh wants you to do his ritualistic laws and jesus would consider you, your people as dirty swines and dogs who are lawless and without law. your god never stepped into gentile house during his ministry. your god never invited none jews to eat and jewish table.
            your god NEVER told non-jews DURING his ministry how to get saved from the wrath of yhwh.
            your god was busy with the children who would end him on 4×4 planks off would and use the law (or did god use the law to do his own execution?) to kill him.

            the romans/italians who occupied israel must have known the law too yet they happily mocked jewish laws to piss off the jews.

            “What type of influence has Judaism had on the World?”

            your pagan religion was a missionary religion trying to convince the world to worship feeble crucfied “el gibor”

            “I would say that Islamic nations hate Israel. Including many other socialist nations.”

            heluluyah

            “God has always used FLESH and BONE to say his WORD? Yes”

            you mean god has always become CREATED to say his word? so you are very close to believing in created god. thanks


            For Example: Say to Israel this is what the Sovereign Lord Says? Yes

            Has God always wanted a Circumcised heart rather than burnt offerings? Yes”

            so if he wanted circumcised heart, then i guess there was no need for his meat to be put on the cross to cool him off. i guess a bloody human sacrificial ritual is not closer to his heart but a repentant heart is which does not require the kebab on cross .


            Abraham believed and therefore he was accredited righteousness. Is Faith and belief work hand in hand with each other? Yes”

            in gods sight abraham did gods rituals perfectly. it wasn’t in mans sight, but in gods sight that abraham did good stuff which pleased yhwh.

            you see the diff bet gods sight and abrahams sight?


            Did we Die with Adam? Yes”

            your god died, christians die every day, but elijay never died. therefore elijah must be divine in some sense, right?

  9. Eleazar says:

    “I trust the Old Testament Scripture due to the truth; God’s Word doesn’t depend on us and is unchained!!!”

    The “Old Testament” is not the Tanakh. The OT is a purposeful mistranslation with a pejorative name slapped on it. The Tanakh itself says that the word is only complete with the Oral Torah. Ironically, Jesus said the same thing:”Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples:’The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you.'” Matt 23:1, 2, 3a . Even Jesus said to obey the Oral Torah!

    “Yes Dina when you tasted the Truth it is hard to believe that God’s love is contingent on Do’s and Do nots.”

    Strawman argument. God’s love does not depend on do’s and don’ts. Our success and our closeness to God does. Adam and Eve lost Eden because of what they “did and didn’t do”, not what they did nor didn’t think or believe. Eve could have stared at that fruit all day, thought about eating all day, and had she not ate, things would have been fine. It was what she DID that sank her. It was what Adam decided to DO that sank him.

    “Yeshua was perfect. God only accepts perfection. ”

    Far from it. Jesus sinned several times as recorded in the NT, including “name-calling” ( Lashon Harah), something you said you have a big problem with, except for if its Jesus, I suppose. So who “paid the price” for Jesus’ sins with his blood?

    “I’m happy that the 1 God has reconciled us to Him.”

    You mean “the three part god reconciled us to THEM” , don’t you?

    “You need Grace because you sin everyday including every Priest or Prophet.”

    Who said we don’t need grace? Another strawman. So tell me, if you are saved by grace then what is Jesus for? It is Christians who do not believe they are saved by grace. They believe they are saved by accepting a human sacrifice because grace in and of itself carries no saving merit whatsoever in Christian dogma. Christianity itself is a living testament to a god who is incapable of saving by grace alone.

    “The law made Israel of aware of what sin was-”

    If the law of Israel is what made Israel aware of sin, then on what basis was Cain held liable? Or Sodom? Or anything God condemned prior to Moses? As for sinning every day, Judaism does not teach the high-view nature of sin like Christianity does. In Christianity, even an errant thought constitutes sin. In fact, just breathing and awaking up in the morning is sin to Christians because “sin” is not something one commits, but rather is what someone IS if not a believer. I do sin, but not all the time, and not every day. But by GRACE God forgives when I repent and make it right. Try to understand this: every doctrine in Christianity is designed to accomplish two things- To make every person believe they need the church and to justify the church’s existence. The New Testament is one, big, self-serving apologetic propaganda book filled with “warnings” about not accepting – or to even question – Jesus and Christianity. No different than the Quran in that respect.

  10. Jim says:

    Bible819,

    You present us with an interesting choice. You say that one cannot trust the judgment of the Jewish people. You claim that they have been unfaithful to their mission. You claim that they are no longer the witnesses of God upon the face of the earth. But of course I know that these claims do not originate with you. Of course not; they originate with the Church. And against the claims of the Church, we have the appointment of the Jewish people by God. So now we must consider the claims of these two parties, that of the Church and that of God.

    According to the Church, the Jewish people rejected the prophets, as if universally. This claim is obviously exaggerated, because it was those same Jewish people who preserved the words of the Prophets. In fact, there were extended periods of faithfulness among the Jewish people to God. This is evident by reading Kings and Chronicles. While it is true that some of the Jewish people, at times even the majority perhaps, turned away from HaShem and His Torah, always some have remained faithful to Him and preserved His Message.

    The exaggerated claim of the Church is necessary, of course, to establish its own authority (having been granted none by God). It is incredible, however, that the Church would so readily cast aspersions upon the Jewish people for failing to live up to the Torah. First, inasmuch as the Church considers it an impossible task to keep the Law of God, they have no business condemning those who failed to do it. One cannot be condemned for failing to do the impossible. Second, the Church is guilty of great crimes itself. What a bloody history the Church has! From nearly the beginning it was a schismatic body. The members of one sect resent the existence of another sect and they are at war. And we cannot overlook their massive oppression of the Jewish people. It is bad enough the way the Church has maligned the Jewish people, but they have done far worse: expelling them from their homes, burning their Torah scrolls, and at times even killing them. Those that live in stained-glass cathedrals…

    Considering the fragmentation in the Church it is astounding how they will brag about their numbers. Even though many sects do not consider many others actual Christians, still they will claim their numbers to bolster their position. So many protestants revile the Catholic Church as antichrist, but that does not mean the numbers of the Catholic Church cannot be used to establish the authority of the Church. No, for that they count. Surely these inflated numbers cannot be proof of anything.

    The Muslims are not far behind the Christians number wise. When they surpass the Church (if they do) will that mean that Islam is the true religion? Will their judgment then be supreme? Will the Church turn to them and say that Islam must be fulfilling the prophecy that the knowledge of God will fill the earth? Doubtful, which means that numbers do not indicate anything.

    And in fact, the claim that the Church has spread the knowledge of God is rather specious. Certainly, much of the world is Christian. And yet, horrible acts of violence and robbery continue unabated, and on a terrific scale. The Christian ‘King of Peace’ has not ushered in peace; rather wars have continued and have been raged in his name. The last decade saw millions killed in horrific ways as the number of Christian continues to grow. It is clear that the Church has not brought the knowledge of God to the world.

    Certainly Jesus did not. One of the strangest claims that Christians make is that Jesus was a light to the gentiles, bringing to them the knowledge of God. Actually Jesus largely avoided gentiles. According to the NT, he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. He did not come for the gentiles. Others, later, in his name, taught something nominally connected to the God of Israel. But that understanding was distorted. The authors of the NT frequently, nearly always, misrepresented the teachings of Torah and the Prophets. They gave the gentiles a bad understanding of God and turned their attention to a man rather than God. Still, if one were to hold that the Church was teaching truth, it would be Paul who served as a light to the gentiles, not Jesus. Paul, according to the NT, spent much more time instructing the gentile world than Jesus did and in many more places.

    But in the end, the real question is only who did God entrust with the truth? The scriptures the Church holds to be true tell us that it was the Jewish people. As much as the Church might like to usurp that authority, they cannot remove what God gave to another people. God made the Jews his witnesses. This can be seen in Deuteronomy, especially chapter 4. The last half of Isaiah is also full of it. God appointed the Jewish people to tell people about God.

    And he never replaced them. Look in the prophetic books you reference. Zechariah writes that 10 non-Jews will grasp the hem of the Jew, looking to learn about God from them. Some of us are asking for their wisdom and knowledge already. Isaiah says that the law will come from Jerusalem. People are going to come to the temple in Jerusalem, and it will be a house of prayer for many nations. It is clear from the prophets that the Jewish people have not lost their mission. And though many have failed at it, thankfully we have people like our Pharisee Friend to keep the knowledge of God alive in the world. For this we must surely be grateful. Had it been left up to the Church, that light would have been extinguished before now.

    The Church can make for itself whatever claims it wishes. But I am not fooled, and neither should you be. The Church has no authority to set itself up as the Witness. The One with that authority set up the Jewish people. To establish itself, the Church ignores the beam in its own eye and draws everyone’s attention to the speck in the eye of the Jewish people. It makes grandiose claims about its own enlightening of the world, even as they are great perpetrators of violence and as we have seen horrible acts of violence grow. But even if the Jewish people were entirely wicked and the Church entirely good, it would be presumptuous of the Church to usurp the mission of the Jewish people. God appointed His witnesses. Let us listen to what they have to say.

    Jim

    P.S. My continued thanks to R’ Blumenthal, Sharbano, Dina, and the other Jews who have been a light.

    • bible819 says:

      Can point out the Scripture that you dispute>?

      • bible819 says:

        I listed some that you can pick out-

      • bible819 You could start with the first article on this blog – it is not called “1000 Verses” for nothing – when you explain those 1000 verses you could talk about being faithful to God’s word

        1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • Eleazar says:

          Rabbi, when a charismatic/pentecostal Christian says “God’s word”, he is talking about three different things- The “graphe word” ( written word), the “logos word” ( revealed word- what God is “showing you” in in the text- even if it is completely out of context) and the “rhema word” ( the word spoken directly to him from God himself, what Bible819 calls his “spirit filled words”). In Bib’s charismatic world, the written word , as-written and in context, is lowest priority and is merely a tool to back up his own private revelation. He will never accept the scriptures put to him because for him plain scripture is the lowest form of revelation.

          • Southern Noahide says:

            Eleazar, this brings back memories:

            “……and the “rhema word” ( the word spoken directly to him from God himself, what Bible819 calls his “spirit filled words”).”

            Many years ago I encountered more than one person who claimed that yeshu actually spoke to them while they were driving their car down the road. I did find it rather amusing that he would always speak to them in old english, as if taking his cue from Cecil B. DeMille.

          • Dina says:

            Old English? That is hilarious.

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