Non Prophet

Non Prophet

Christian missionaries contend that the Jewish people should accept Jesus as a true prophet.

We can’t.

Because he wasn’t.

How can you be so sure?

Simple – The same system that tells me that Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel were true prophets, tells me that Jesus was not.

Well, how do you know that the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures were authentic?

I will tell you in a minute – but before I answer your question, I have a question of my own for you. Did you ever think about this? Did you ever wonder how it is that we know that the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures are for real and that the writings of the Jewish Scripture were authored with Divine inspiration?

Did you have a clear and straightforward understanding of the method that we should use to sort out the true prophets from the frauds – and then did you carefully and patiently apply this test to Jesus – and only after he passed with flying colors – then, and only then, did you accept him? Or did you perhaps accept Jesus before you ever thought about this question?

So how do we know that the Jewish Scriptures are authentic?

We must first recognize that God appointed a witness nation (Isaiah 43:10, 12; 44:8). God had demonstrated to the Jewish people in a clear and unequivocal way – that He is the Lord and that there is no other (Deuteronomy 4:15, 35).

We are confident that Israel is His witness nation because no national entity claims any experience that could be compared to ours (Deuteronomy 4:32-35).

When the claimant to prophecy presented their claim – the Jewish people asked themselves: is this man or woman speaking in the name of the God we know from Sinai? (Deuteronomy 18:20) Is he or she encouraging worship of an entity other than the God we know from Sinai? (Deuteronomy 13:3)

Jesus did not pass this test.

There is another test that God provided to sort the true prophet from the fraud. If a prediction of the prophet fails to materialize, then we can be sure that the prophet is a fraud (Deuteronomy 18:22). This one is tricky though. You see, the followers of false prophets were never short of excuses when the predictions of their “prophet” failed to materialize. How could we know if our bias, for or against, the claimant to prophecy is confusing us or not?

In these situations we are directed to turn to the judges of Israel(Deuteronomy 17:8, 9 – 2Chronicles 19:11).

We know their verdict.

If you do not accept the authority of Israel and her judges to pass judgment on Jesus, please be consistent, and reject her Bible as well.

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139 Responses to Non Prophet

  1. Pau summers says:

    Hello,
    So would you class Moses as a false prophet?

    Because His statements from God about Israels consistent backsliding must be viewed as correct. The Word very clearly teaches that blessings would be given for obedience and cursing for disobedience. Its very clear.

    My next question is, what did Israel do to suffer so much at the hands of men?
    Especially from the period of AD70, when Which Jesus DID predict!!! Yes that’s right!

    Why, for example did The God of Israel allow by His sovereign rule allow 6 million of His children to die the way they did. A tricky and painful question I appreciate, but it has to be asked and answered.
    Jesus/God said “I leave you, your house desolate”.
    Would that be a false prediction or a true statement, Is Israel in blessings, but just going through a little slump period in the blessings?

    • Dina says:

      Paul, are you saying that the Holocaust, aided and abetted by Christians, was visited on the Jews because they rejected Jesus?

      You ask, “what did Israel do to suffer so much at the hands of men?” Israel suffered so much at the hands of Christians. Is it because they rejected Jesus?

      If that’s the case, we would rather suffer than be the ones inflicting the suffering.

      Think about that for a minute. A tricky and painful thought, but it must be thought.

      • Dina says:

        Argh, I forgot to follow again.

      • CP says:

        Dina, Just three days ago I personally met two Holocaust survivors invited to speak at our synagogue. They tell a different story than you. In fact the story they tell is exactly opposite than yours. Perhaps you can suggest some books for them to read?

        Both survived the Holocaust by being hidden by various Christians. The punishment for hiding a Jew was the death of yourself and the death of your extended family. I might be wrong, but something tells me you’d never hide a Christian.

        • Jim says:

          CP,

          What an ugly and foolish thing to say! The constant maligning of your opponents’ characters is your practice, I know, but this is beyond the pale: “…something tells me you’d never hide a Christian.” The “something” that tells you that is your despite for Dina. These hateful comments of you are unnecessary and add nothing to the discussion. (Ask me again why we cannot have a “friendly discussion”?)

          Dina has many times written thankfully of those Christians that protected Jews. But she knows, and you ought to know, that that is not the full story. Christian Jew-hatred made the Holocaust possible. That you should ignore this fact and heap your vitriol on Dina is both dishonest and disgusting

          Jim

          • Dina says:

            Thank you, Jim. I was quite horrified by what CP wrote but wasn’t going to dignify it with a response, it was so disgusting. Thank you for standing up for me.

          • CP says:

            Jim,
            Didn’t your mother teach you the saying; ‘if you can’t take it, don’t dish it out’? Dina repeatedly stereotypes and targets Christians as the source for Antisemitism as evidenced in her most recent above post. Considering her anti-Christian rhetoric, it is logically doubtful she would risk her life for a Christian the same way Christians have for Jews.
            If I am saying something untrue, I am willing to listen to facts, not empty dialogue.

          • CP Which part of Dina’s post was rhetoric and not fact? And which part of your post isn’t “empty dialogue”?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Jim says:

            CP,

            I do not know from where you come to the belief that you may malign others with impunity. From where to you derive the right to deride others, insult them and say the most hateful things against them?

            Dina did not stereotype Christians. She did not say that all Christians are Jew-haters. She was answering Paul’s argument. Surely you know that the history of the Church is full of Jew-hatred. Surely you know of its history of the oppression of the Jewish people. Surely you know that they chased the Jewish people from their lands, burned their books and their bodies, and forced their conversions. So, when someone like Paul asks why the Jews suffered, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that it was the Church that persecuted them. Indeed, the question should be, “Why did the Church cause so much suffering?” The Church that is responsible for so much Jewish suffering is the same that says that the Jew has been abandoned for rejecting Jesus.

            Not only does Dina not stereotype Christians, she has constantly affirmed that many Christians aided the Jews and that she is thankful for them. She has affirmed that there are many good Christian people. She has affirmed that Christians, though making a grave error, are not abandoned by God and that God loves them very much as He loves all people.

            You say that you “are willing to listen to facts, not empty dialogue.” Your speculations on Dina are not facts. They are nothing but hateful insults, more of your personal comments that have no place here. But you pretend to have some kind of high ground.

            I have been writing here for years now. It looks to be about three-and-a-half. In that time, I have come to think of some of the people here as friends. And you treat them with contempt. This vile accusation of yours to Dina is a bridge too far.

            You will be the first person on this board that I have declined to speak with any further. I find your comment to Dina loathsome. You can run over to your Christian board and boast that you alienated someone over here. You can pretend that you have been rejected like Jesus and feel like you are following in his shoes. Tell yourself whatever story you like. The truth is that I will not continue to speak with someone that lies about my friends, saying the most horrible things about them.

            I am done with you.

            Jim

          • CP says:

            “Dina did not stereotype Christians.”

            Jim, you said the above but below are the facts;
            Dina in her comment above:

            “Holocaust, aided and abetted by Christians,”

            “Israel suffered so much at the hands of Christians. ”

            Jim, say what you want be here it is in black and white for all to see. And don’t even try to pretend it’s the first time. I don’t have anything against Dina, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t call out hate mongering when I see it.

            If I’m wrong correct me with the facts rather than emotion.

          • CP Dina stated facts – that’s not stereotyping. Stereotyping would be if she would say that because some Christians killed Jews then all Christians are murderers. CP perhaps you can explain how you see Dina as stereotyping and hate-mongering while John and Matthew’s Jesus are not? After all Dina didn’t get into the spiritual lineage of Christians (children of the devil)

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B, if a person isn’t born a Jew, isn’t circumcised, doesn’t keep Sabbath or observe Torah, is this person a Jew just because they say so?

            What if a group of these heretics claiming to be Jews murdered people……could we rightly blame the Jews?

            Btw, I’ve always been very careful when discussing who killed Yeshua to indicate the corrupt leaders and not Jews in general. In fact this includes the Roman leaders.

          • CP Such a person wouldn’t be a Jew – but even if a group of real Jews killed people we can’t rightly blame all the Jews – but what does this have to do with the hate-mongering of the authors of the Christian Scriptures? No one is blaming Christianity because “some Christians” killed – it was the Church’s demonizing of the Jew for centuries upon centuries that directly lead to the holocaust 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B, you write;
            “it was the Church’s demonizing of the Jew for centuries upon centuries that directly lead to the holocaust.”

            I would agree it may of contributed indirectly or was used as self justification. However the reality is Hitler and Nazism “directly” lead to the Holocaust. Hitter had an obsession with the occult, not with Bible study.

          • Pau summers says:

            Hi
            Yes, I totally agree. The NT and the Bible as a whole teaches that salvation is from the Jews. Hardly a teaching from the bowels of national socialism.

            The cross, as a symbol of hope, a traditional symbol, not scriptural, as unfortunately become a symbol of persecution.

          • CP The people who killed Jews in the holocaust were not only Germans. They included many people from many nations – Hitler was the trigger but the groundwork was laid for centuries beforehand

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • Yedidiah says:

          Perhaps one should have been more specific and said “Pauline Christians” or “Jesus followers”, so that “Yeshua followers” would not feel that they were included in the atrocities committed by Christians. Christians (less than 100%) do good things, but they (more than 0%) also do bad things. Or were Jews (less than 100%) just imagining they were victims of persecution or were the victimizers non-Christians aliens from another planet? Why are you suggesting that “2 Holocaust survivors” are telling “a completely different story”?

          Perhaps a few people (Christians) with my last name persecuted Jews during WW2. They may have participated in committing atrocities (despite being Christians). I know at least one (a Christian?) that is on a list of the victims of the Nazis (Christian or not & either willing or forced to be a killer).

      • Pau summers says:

        Hi Dina
        Not at all. You have avoided my question.
        Firstly I never said Jews were persecuted by Christians. That’s your preconceived assumed answer. Yes Jews have been butchered, but the NT never promised such by believers, however The God of Israel does say such, in the way of curses that is, in Deut for one example.

        Another question I have is thus; if Jesus was the false prophet as you say, why does Israel suffer so much for rejecting Him. Surely by Gods own words and standards denying such a false prophet who comes into your people would in turn bring some blessing and peace as a consequence.
        Jesus stated your house is left desolate, do you deny the Temple was destroyed?
        The Church of Jesus Christ, the biblical one that is, doesn’t burn Jews. However I did read in the Hebrew Bible that Jews burnt there own children in fires to honour there god. Could you please comment on this.

        So your sums don’t seem to add up.

        • Paul Summers You were blocked from this blog – why do you think it is ethical to worm your way back in?

          1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Pau summers says:

            Hi
            Worming??
            Just questions about the Hebrew Bible. If the questions are to difficult to answer that’s fine.

            I will wait and see if I actually get a answer, or just get blocked. Your call.

          • Dina says:

            Paul, you do get answers, you just don’t listen, you just want to preach. I believe that’s why you were blocked in the first place.

          • Pau summers says:

            Hi Dina
            Sorry but you didn’t answer my question. You might have responded, but that’s not the same.
            I asked “why have Jews suffered so much”?

            You replied ” we would rather suffer than to persecute (” or words to that effect”).

            So you admit suffering, my question is simply why?
            Is Christ a false prophet??
            He said “Your house is left desolate” The Temple was destroyed yrs later. Subsequently the Jews have suffered a great deal.
            Jesus also prophesied about a world war in the Oliver discourse, which actually both world wars had a massive impact of Jewish history, and of course impact the land today.

          • Paul Summers Dina answered your question – our rejection of Jesus saved us from sharing the bloody history of the Church – that’s a pretty big blessing

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Pau summers says:

            Hi
            But the question still hasn’t been answered.
            All you have done is blame the church, and not given a answer on why?

            You don’t seem to follow the theological word in your Hebrew texts when it comes to devine recompense??

          • Paul Summers to answer your question for the umpteenth time – we are in exile for our sins – but rejecting Jesus is not one of them – that particular act (rejecting Jesus) brought us blessing not curse – do you get the answer?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Pau summers says:

            Hi
            So in what way are you blessed by rejecting Jesus. Obviously the Church hasn’t blessed you, you keep talking about murderous acts by Christians. Now you speak of blessings.

            Could you please clarify.

          • Paul Summers We were blessed by rejecting Jesus in that we weren’t part of an Inquisition, Crusades or a holocaust while many of the followers of Jesus took part in these crimes 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • Yedidiah says:

          It was also God’s Temple & Jesus supposedly tried to clean “his Father’s house”? Did Jesus fail to clean it & so “God’s House” must be destroyed by men? Jesus cursed a tree & he died on a tree as a curse & then “forsaken by God” like other Jews(?)(until the days to come when the Jews arise). Was Jesus cursed by God (just one more part of the curse on him & his fellow Jews)? Was his death a blessing for Jews? What does it mean that they (the Jews) were persecuted for Jesus’ sake? They are Jesus? Or, Jesus is the devil, like Egypt, Babylon, & Rome, the enemy of God who God uses as a tool to punish Israel, but in the end Israel is saved & blessed while the enemy is destroyed?

          According to Matthew, the devil was given the world to rule on earth & he tempted Jesus telling him that he could give it to anyone he chose. Shortly after that Jesus said that “he was given all the earth”. Sounds like Jesus sold out to the devil? Jews aren’t the only ones not living in a “utopia”; seems Christians are cursed as much or more?

  2. CP says:

    “Simple – The same system that tells me that Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel were true prophets, tells me that Jesus was not.”

    Let me get this straight; are we talking about:

    The same Isaiah who was sawn in half by the “same system”?

    The same Jeremiah who was stoned to death in Egypt by the “same system”?

    The same Ezekiel who was killed in in the land of the Chaldeans by the “same system”?

    • CP says:

      Actually, Yeshua is looking to be in pretty good company – he was killed also by the “same system”.

    • CP Where did you get these stories about Jeremiah and Ezekiel? And besides do you believe that those who killed the prophets were the ones who preserved their writings?

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • bible819 says:

        Friend,

        It’s for the Glory of the Father, and not Israel. The witness Nation became like everyone else. The Promise to David is what kept Israel from being completely wiped out. The blood of Israel is only revelant to Gods seed, not the flesh and skin color of Israel. There is no difference between Israel and the world. We all know the law. Do we follow it?! Yeshua brought the Father Glory. We know Gods salvation. We know what he wants. Israel didn’t bring that to us Gentiles. God selected hebrews that gave it to us. The same temptations you face is the same for us. A spiritual kingdom is set forth from the perfection of the blood of the seed of David.

      • CP says:

        R’B, these are legends, either Jewish or Catholic. I’d have to trace down the sources. apparently you are in agreement with the legend of Isaiah’s death, which makes the point by itself. I have a very high opinion of Jews and Christians in general and a very low opinion of leadership of all faith. However there has and are great righteous leaders, but they are by far to far in-between

        • CP What do you know about the Jewish religious leadership for the past 2000 years – facts please

          1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            2000 years? Lol, not much! I’ve confined my study to the Babylonian exile and the Second Temple. I’ve read some Rabbis in between besides a bit of RaSHI and Rambam.

            However, a fair amount can be known from Tanach about the leadership before Yeshua, I rather doubt things suddenly changed and stayed changed at the time of Yeshua.

          • CP Do you see a steady and unchanging picture of Jewish religious leadership throughout the Tanach?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B, no, I don’t, rather I see a fractured vacillating leadership alternating between good and evil, unity and division. Nothing specific to Judaism but only that which is common to mankind.

          • CP “Common to mankind” so which other society revered and canonized a set of books that exposes their own faults so vividly?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            There are other societies who have revered and canonized a set of books. One even older than Judaism. However I am not familiar enough with these texts to know if these societies exposed their own faults as vividly.

            I’m not sure where you are going with this, but are you prepared to say Jewish leadership has never been corrupt? How can you say for sure the Sadducees and Pharisees did not have corrupt leaders at the time of Yeshua? I’d be interested in any proof you have this wasn’t the case. (FYI, I do not see this as a reflection on Judaism, but on the evils common to all mankind. Positions of leadership often attract those least fit to lead)

          • CP I do know of the “holy” texts of Islam and Christianity and they do the opposite of what the Jewish Scriptures do when it comes to exposing the faults of the target audience I am not familiar with the “holy” texts of Buddhism and Hinudism – but I can bet that they don’t portray the faults of the target audience as do the Jewish Scriptures – that’s just human nature You don’t think that the nation that God chose as His witnesses will be different? That God will move to preserve His truth in their midst as per Isaiah 59:21? I suggest you learn about the religious leadership of Jews loyal to God for the past 2000 years – you will be more educated on the subject

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • CP says:

          R’B,
          I do not deny there were periods of righteous leadership at which time Jewish texts were canonized. However these same texts indicate there were also periods of corrupt leadership. Therefore the question particular to our discussion isn’t if Jewish leadership has always been steady and unchanging, but if a period of corruption occurred at the time Yeshua lived.

          For a people who revere a set of books that exposes their own faults so vividly to deny even the possibility of a corrupt leadership existing at the time of a Yeshua is non-sequitur — unless there is evidence to prove otherwise.

          • CP says:

            R’B, if you don’t mind me pointing out Isaiah 59:21 has some context to it which stipulates some conditions. The covenant which promises God’s Spirit and Words will never depart comes by way of a “Redeemer” to those “who turn from rebellion.”

          • CP The context of Isaiah 59:21 that a redeemer will eventually come – but for NOW the covenant has God’s word in our mouth. This is consistent with Isaiah 51:16; 51:7; – and with the fact that Israel are called the “Armor Bearers of the Lord” in 52:11 – “God’s Witnesses” in 43:10; 43:12 and 44:8

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP I am not denying the possibility of corrupt leadership – I am showing that the Jewish religious leadership decidedly does NOT follow the pattern of human nature. This does not make them super human – it does show us however that God’s guiding hand is at work. If you want to cast doubt on the decision not to accept Jesus – go ahead – but be consistent – and cast doubt on the decision to canonize every book in the Jewish Bible

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B
            Thank you for the verses, I will definitely look them up when I get the time.

            I don’t think the people who rejected Yeshua are the same people who canonized Jewish Scripure which was done before and after that time. — ‘just saying’

          • CP Not the same people – but the same covenant nation

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            Many of the prophets were rejected by people of the Covenant Nation, only to be accepted by later people of the Covenant Nation.

            These isn’t something that can be proven but I’d be willing to bet if the Gentiles hadn’t made such a big deal out of Yeshua he’d be accepted by Jews today as a second Temple prophet.

          • CP You are missing the point – how do you know that the prophets we accepted (OT) were the real ones and not part of the evil religious leadership?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            “….how do you know that the prophets we accepted (OT) were the real ones….?”
            The short answer is by their content.

            Let’s say for example there was a prophet whose writings were canonized which taught child sacrifice. Would you accept it merely because some historical religious leaders told you they are to be accepted?

            Wouldn’t you know instantly something was wrong if the content disagrees with Torah? I’d say it’s not so much the religious leaders who judge the content, rather it’s the content which judges the religious leaders.

          • CP So you are saying that you are the ultimate judge of what is and what isn’t God’s word? – you are relying on your own sensitivity to Godliness to determine if a book is or isn’t authentic?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            As I see it, the reality is we’ve four choices:

            1) Believe what others tell you to believe.
            2) Decide for yourself what to believe.
            3) Trust God to show you what to believe
            4) A combination of all three above.

            I’ve chosen #4, because the reality with only one choice is standing before God to give an account, you’ll not be able to blame others for what you believed.

          • CP What is the upshot of this? Are you sticking to your position that your own assessment of the content is what tells you if a given book is written by Divine inspiration or are you modifying that position? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  3. Dina says:

    Did Christian Persecution of Jews Really Happen?

    Hint: the answer is yes.

    This week, CP told one of his biggest whoppers ever.

    I wrote that Jews have suffered terrible persecution at the hands of Christians. I also wrote that Christians aided and abetted the Holocaust (I’ll add here that without their blessing the Holocaust would not have got off the ground or been able to inflict damage anywhere near the extent that it did).

    CP said that these are not facts but empty rhetoric.

    CP would have you believe that the Jews were not persecuted by Christians. It’s kind of surreal to pen this article. I feel like I’m explaining to a Holocaust denier that the Holocaust really happened.

    The history of the Christian persecution of the Jews is a book-length topic, and I cannot do it justice in this one article.

    Suffice it to say, I tried counting up the number of times the Jews were massacred in Europe, and I gave up almost at once. There were too many. Expulsions: at least 70, though I think possibly over 80. Stake burnings, public executions, blood libels (about 100, which also often resulted in massacres).

    Here’s a useful, if grim, timeline of persecutions:

    http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

    It does not cover blood libels, forced ghettoization, being forced out of all professions except moneylending. But it will give you a general picture.

    Sure, there were Christians who tried to protect the Jews. You’ll read a story here and there about a bishop who hid Jews in his castle.

    Augustine taught that you must not kill the Jew but must keep him in a degraded state. Church leaders preached the degradation of the Jew and then were powerless to stop the mobs whom they had whipped up into a frenzy.

    So while some leaders tried to stem the bloodshed, they were often unsuccessful.

    The early Church Fathers such as John Chrysostom openly preached hatred of the Jews. Martin Luther’s vicious diatribes of the Jews created a climate saturated with Jew hatred in Germany. Just Google: church leaders Christian anti-semitism. See what you come up with.

    Every historian I have read on the subject agrees that centuries of Christian Jew hatred led to the Holocaust. Hitler could never have got his program off the ground without it.

    I’m not going to go into the “they weren’t real Christians” defense because it’s lame, lame, lame. John Chrysostom wasn’t a real Christian? Martin Luther wasn’t a real Christian? That would be news to them! It was their venomous words–and those of their ilk–that caused the terrible persecution of the Jews.

    More Jews were tortured, killed, or otherwise made to suffer at the hands of Christians than any other group.

    Folks, CP lied straight out. It is not empty rhetoric that Christians persecuted Jews. It’s fact.

    • bible819 says:

      Gods Promise
      -Deuteronomy 28:37
      You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the LORD will drive you.

      Blame Christians all you want.

      We will Profess Yeshua the Jew until he returns in his Fathers Glory.

      I have yet to read anything that would make me hate a Jew.

      After all, Yeshua is my Lord and King!!!

      • Dina says:

        What do Christians make of the fact that God promises to punish all our oppressors? In Zechariah 1:15 God tells us that He is very angry with the nations, because He was angry only a little bit, but they augmented the evil.

        The Christians went way too far. Way, way, way too far. I blame the Christians because God blames all our oppressors throughout history, and the Christians were the worst by far, causing the largest number of deaths, destroying the most communities, and creating the most difficult living conditions of any of our oppressors throughout history.

        • bible819 says:

          Hello Dina,

          For all the Kings of Israel who did evil in the eyes of the Lord, how much more would1 who doesn’t know the Bible-> such as the Catholics who twist the Word of God for profit (among other Elders in church), that use their authority to kill off Gods People.

          As my Bible teaches, there will be 1 new man. 1st Israel and then us Gentiles who follow the Word whole hardheartedly, for the fact that God will test the inhabitants of the earth to see who is faithful.

          “He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.”

          . And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time

          Christians believe this-
          Alterations in times and in law= Catholic Church (Pope) * such as the Sabbath*

          But I apologize for anyone who spoke my Lords name in vain to hurt the Apple of eye.

          Lastly, I can’t find anywhere in the Bible where is promotes Christians (who are specifically told that we are second to Jews) to hurt Jews.

    • KAVI says:

      Just a simple observation–

      Regardless of past history, it’s not difficult in our times to find Jews of all ilk who read the OT/NT and come to believe that L-rd Yeshua is their promised Holy Redeemer.

      Note> For example, one can visit youtube and type in “one for israel” to find a host Jewish testimonies–
      and yes, regardless of what folks on this site may or may not believe about the impact of the holocaust or personal persecution– these Jews still decided to believe the testimony of G-d’s promise of holiness through faith in the Mashiach Redeemer.
      ______________

      • Dina says:

        How many of these Jews were raised in Orthodox setting? I’ll wager zero. As ignorant as they are of their Jewish heritage, they are likely as ignorant of the history of Christian anti-Semitism.

        • KAVI says:

          Dina,
          Are you truly certain that Jews who find redemption in L-rd Yeshua are “ignorant”?

          Perhaps you are unaware that Orthodox Jews as well as Jewish holocaust survivors have trusted in Yeshua for redemption.

          To be fair to those you have accused, are you willing to thoroughly investigate your claims?

          ________________

      • KAVI Many Christians who read the OT/NT and experienced a relationship with Yeshua – have left Yeshua – just go to Jews for Judaism’s website – what does this prove? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • KAVI says:

          Rabbi,
          Yes, I have no doubt there are some Jews who make claims to follow the Messiah and then turn away–

          Likewise, we find some Goyim who make similar claims and turn away.

          We also can find Orthodox Jews who become secular. . .
          _______________________

          Q: Do Rabbis come to believe?

          A: Yes– We both know of Orthodox Rabbis who have come to believe in L-rd Yeshua for redemption and did NOT turn back.
          _______________________

          • KAVI Every claim of an Orthodox Rabbi that “found” Yeshua that I heard of – I investigated and found to be false – here is a list of Christian clergy members that had worshiped yoru idol and then saw the truth – > > 1) Asher Wade, former Methodist pastor > 2) Ole Brunell, former Lutheran minister from Finland and Australia. > > 3) JoAnn Fay, a former Catholic nun. > 4) John David Scalamonti, a former Roman Catholic priest > 5) John Hove, a former Lutheran pastor. > 6 ) Thomas Roper, a former Baptist minister > 7) Gavriel Sanders, former Pentecostal minister and missionary in Israel. > > 8) Tonica Marlow, a former female evangelical minister and daughter of > a Pentecostal preacher. > > 9) Aharón Calderón, a former monk of a Catholic monastery in South > America. > 10) Armando Quiros, a former catholic priest. > 11) Michael Flanagan, a former Baptist minister, and son of a Minister > > 12) Ahuva Gray, served as a Christian minister in the African American > community both in Chicago and Los Angeles for fourteen years > > 13) Nobutaka Hattori, a former Protestant Minister of Japan > 14) Ary’el Tsion, formerly known as Bert Woudwijk, a Messianic pastor > from Holland > 15) Benjamin Klugger, former Pentecostal missionary > > 16) George Gunsberger, president of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of > Australia for 10 years, >

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • KAVI says:

            Rabbi,
            Yes, L-rd Yeshua testified there will be those who proclaim faith in Him, yet turn away [Mark 13]

            So your list of those who have converted to the Orthodox Jewish faith serves as a reminder of Yeshua’s truth regarding the matter.
            ______________

            As to your investigation into claims of Orthodox Rabbis who came to faith in Yeshua, Dr. Brown’s first volume on “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus” speaks of Rabbi Ephraim ben Joseph Eliakim [Haham Ephraim].

            How did you determine Haham Ephraim’s profession and life in L-rd Yeshua to be false?

            ______________

          • KAVI This fellow allegedly lived and died years ago – I can find no record of him outside of missionary literature – I can’t determine if he ever lived, what level of scholarship he had and what kind of Christian he became (“fake” or “real”) – but if there are so many Rabbis that converted – why can’t you find me one who I could talk to? Or at least let him put forth those arguments that persuaded him to accept Jesus – because ultimately its not about what people think its between each of us and the God of truth

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • KAVI says:

          Rabbi Blumenthal,
          Although I do not recall saying there were “many” Orthodox Rabbis who converted to a living hope of redemption in Mashiach Yeshua, I still went through the process of preparing a list [Note: The same will be given to Dina since she asked– I don’t like to double post, so I hope you won’t mind this one time.]

          Rabbi George Benedict
          Rabbi Chil Slostowski
          Rabbi Charles Freshman
          Rabbi Ignatz “Isaac” Lichtenstein
          Michael Solomon Alexander
          Rabbi Ephraim Ben Joseph Eliakim
          Rabbi Judah Monis
          Rabbi Azriel Ben Isaac [still living as far as I am aware]

          Admittedly, not many–

          • KAVI Thanks for preparing this list – I will look into these. Two names on this list are familiar to me from missionary literature; Lichtenstein and Eliakim. As I told you I could find no information on Eliakim – Lichtenstein was a real person but he was no rabbi – he claimed to be the chief rabbi of Hungary – which if he was it would be difficult to erase every record of him in that position – yet there is not one document that validates his claim. I’ll look into the rest in the near future

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

    • CP says:

      Dina, you called me a liar, implied I was a Holocaust denier and entirely misrepresented me in response to the post I will repost below for the record. Allow me to ask you; Do you realize you are a representative of Orthodox Judaism here for all to see? Hopefully people won’t judge your religion by your behavior. However if you’re unable to represent a simple comment of another fairly how can you be trusted to represent weightier matters of religion and God?

      CP says:
      January 23, 2017 at 10:26 am
      Dina, Just three days ago I personally met two Holocaust survivors invited to speak at our synagogue. They tell a different story than you. In fact the story they tell is exactly opposite than yours. Perhaps you can suggest some books for them to read?

      Both survived the Holocaust by being hidden by various Christians. The punishment for hiding a Jew was the death of yourself and the death of your extended family. I might be wrong, but something tells me you’d never hide a Christian.

      (Btw I’d like to add; there are 52,000 recorded Holocaust Survivor stories, most saved through the actions of Christians)

  4. Eleazar says:

    You forgot about me, Rabbi, even though I was never famous.

    • Dina says:

      Right, you were a minister, isn’t that so? Christians never produce a list of Orthodox rabbis who converted to Christianity, they merely assert it.

      • Pau summers says:

        Hi, not been following exactly but would Saul and Nicodemus fit this discussion?

      • KAVI says:

        Dina,
        I will provide a list per your request– however, in the meantime, I just posted a note to Rabbi Blumenthal regarding Rabbi Ephraim Ben Joseph Eliakim.

        It may be that RB will provide us both the reason why this Rabbi serves as an example of a false conversion to redemption in L-rd Yeshua.
        ________________

      • KAVI says:

        Dina,
        Just as a formality, I have tried to comply with your request for a list of Orthodox Rabbis who have come to faith in L-rd Yeshua as their Redeemer,

        Rabbi George Benedict
        Rabbi Chil Slostowski
        Rabbi Charles Freshman
        Rabbi Ignatz “Isaac” Lichtenstein
        Michael Solomon Alexander
        Rabbi Ephraim Ben Joseph Eliakim
        Rabbi Judah Monis
        Rabbi Azriel Ben Isaac [still living as far as I am aware]

        • Dina says:

          Besides for the last one, they’re all dead? How am I supposed to confirm this? Can you provide the names of live Orthodox rabbis that converted to Christianity? Rabbi B. provided a list of Christian clergy, all alive and breathing, who converted to Judaism. Can you not reciprocate?

        • Dina says:

          I Googled Rabbi Azriel Ben Isaac and dug this up:

          http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/testimony-of-rabbi-azriel-ben-isaac/

          Interestingly, he doesn’t name a single yeshiva he attended (red flag), so I can’t confirm if his story is true. There was an Orthodox school in Meknes in the 1940s which is when he would have attended, but none in Masagan that I could discover (red flag). After that the only other city of residence he lists is Bnei Brak, which has loads of yeshivas, so again, can’t confirm. After that he doesn’t name any other cities he resided in (red flag), again, no names of yeshivas he attended, no names of rabbis who granted him ordination (red flag). What gives?

          • CP says:

            Maybe this will give you some legs to stand on:

            Rose Price
            David Yaniv
            Sergey Katchanov
            Sharon Allen
            Frieda Roos
            R. Mathetes
            Moran Rosenblit

          • Dina says:

            I’m officially not talking to CP, but first person on his list:

            Rose Price: not a clergyman, dead, so I can’t contact her. Very sad life story, and I ache for her experience in the Holocaust. Doubtful she was Orthodox. Kaddish Friday night? I don’t think so. My 3-year-old wouldn’t make that mistake.

            Only one syllable off, you say? That’s the difference between slow and slew.

            Can you guys give us some live, once-Orthodox rabbis, now Christians, who actually have contact information and attended schools with names?

          • Dina says:

            Next person on the list, David Yaniv. Dead, not raised Orthodox. Not a clergyman.

            The point of this exercise appears to be lost on some. Jews who are raised Orthodox are the least likely to convert to Christianity, while Jews who are uneducated in Judaism are the most likely. Now, why do you think that is?

          • Dina says:

            Next person on the list…okay, this is getting stupid. We know that Jews have converted to Christianity, so what’s this guy’s point? The next guy was raised in the Soviet Union where the teaching of religion was forbidden. Raised with next to no knowledge of his heritage.

          • Dina says:

            Folks, not likely! This woman dated and married a Christian while ostensibly an observant Jew. Observant Jews don’t date, much less marry, non-Jews.

            What schools did she attend? Not mentioned. Contact info? Not provided.

            Red flags? Yes.

            Christians, find me an Asher Wade equivalent, then we can start talking.

            By the way, there are Jews who light candles Friday night and observe a light form of Shabbos, but are not Jewishly educated (i.e., attend public school rather than religious Orthodox school) and know next to nothing about Judaism). They are not Orthodox. I mean, the first time she reads the Bible is as an adult, to prove that Jesus is not there? Seriously?

          • KAVI says:

            Rabbi,
            Well, yes and no– I mentioned “to” and the Orthodox came up with “from”. . . both lists of converts to/from Judaism/”Christianity” have instructive value no matter which Faith one maintains.
            ___________________

            During the first century, the question as to whether Yeshua was an idol or not did not seem to be problematic to the Jews who converted “to” following The Way of redemption through L-rd Yeshua– These first disciples registered in the many thousands of regular, everyday Jewish people, scores of priests, and even some members of the Sanhedrin.

            And as for our times, we continue to find Jews and Gentiles who enjoy a common bond in their Redeemer who brought them back into fellowship with the Ancient of Days. [as promised in Deuteronomy 32 and elsewhere]
            ___________________

            Q: What is it about Yeshua who divides and yet unites?

            A: It is Truth– and even Holocaust survivors have found Truth in a living Faith in their Redeemer, L-rd Yeshua.

            Let’s take one example from pediatrician, Dr. Vera Schlamm– Vera was a survivor of Bergen-Belsen who said in Ruth Rosen’s book, “Jesus for Jews”,

            “When I hear my people tell about the Holocaust as though it should justify prejudice against Jesus, it makes me very sad. If we allow the memory of the Nazis to keep us from our own Messiah, we give Hitler the power to reach beyond the grave and destroy us in an awful way that even his evil mind could not imagine.”

            Vera believed that Jews should, “guard ourselves from prejudice which can cause us to mistakenly label the truth as a ‘disgrace.'”

            ___________________

          • KAVI
            There is no way of knowing if the first century followers of Jesus/Yeshua were Trinitarians (probably not)
            And the truth that can be learned from these converts is examining their paths – how much truth was involved and how much ignorance – because ignorance is the partner of falsehood no matter how sincere the ignorance is

          • CP says:

            R’B
            “There is no way of knowing if the first century followers of Jesus/Yeshua were Trinitarians (probably not)” ——-
            ——- Thank you for the “(probably not)”, However all the evidence of early believers points to NOT. Further more, a complex bi-unity doctrine was was not officially recognized until 400 years after Yeshua and then 50 years after that was changed to a Trinity.

        • Dina says:

          Kavi, I looked up Rabbi George Benedict, same website. Did you get the whole list from this website? It’s the same deal. Names of institutions are not mentioned, not even the year he was born (no dates are given at all). Very convenient vagueness.

          On the other hand, the first name on Rabbi B.’s list, Asher Wade, I found on Google with his own website and a way to contact him. Details in his biography were specific. See http://asherwade.com/about/

          Kavi, do you realize how unequal this is?

          • Dina says:

            Sheker ein lo raglayim.

          • KAVI says:

            Dina,
            For myself, I am not sure the focus is on measuring whether a matter is statistically “unequal” since we know L-rd Yeshua said to all people in the world that, “. . . small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.” [Matthew 7]

            However, Yeshua does give sincere, uplifting encouragement to the Orthodox Rabbi or any teacher of the Law when he says,
            “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old.” [Matthew 13]

            ____________________

          • Dina says:

            Oh man, that is such a cop out, Kavi!

            But be that as it may. Let’s talk about gates, then.

            Judaism teaches that the gate is open wide to all who want to come close to God. God is close to all who call to Him, to all who call to Him sincerely (Psalm 145:18). It doesn’t matter if you’re a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim or anything. You just need to be sincere, even if you are sincerely wrong. God won’t punish you for making an honest mistake.

            The Jewish God is so much more compassionate, merciful, and even inclusive!

          • KAVI The subject of converts to and from was not brought up by the Jewish side – it was brought up by the side of those who idolize Jesus.

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • KAVI says:

            Dina,
            Are you sure the gate is truly open as wide as you say?

            How many of those in the Exodus entered the promised land?

            And in the book of Isaiah we find,
            “Unless the L-RD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.” [Isaiah 1]

            __________________

          • CP says:

            Dina, is the last name listed you?

            Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity

            December 3, 2015

            To Do the Will of Our Father in Heaven:
            Toward a Partnership between Jews and Christians

            After nearly two millennia of mutual hostility and alienation, we Orthodox Rabbis who lead communities, institutions and seminaries in Israel, the United States and Europe recognize the historic opportunity now before us. We seek to do the will of our Father in Heaven by accepting the hand offered to us by our Christian brothers and sisters. Jews and Christians must work together as partners to address the moral challenges of our era.

            The Shoah ended 70 years ago. It was the warped climax to centuries of disrespect, oppression and rejection of Jews and the consequent enmity that developed between Jews and Christians. In retrospect it is clear that the failure to break through this contempt and engage in constructive dialogue for the good of humankind weakened resistance to evil forces of anti-Semitism that engulfed the world in murder and genocide.
            We recognize that since the Second Vatican Council the official teachings of the Catholic Church about Judaism have changed fundamentally and irrevocably. The promulgation of Nostra Aetate fifty years ago started the process of reconciliation between our two communities. Nostra Aetate and the later official Church documents it inspired unequivocally reject any form of anti-Semitism, affirm the eternal Covenant between G-d and the Jewish people, reject deicide and stress the unique relationship between Christians and Jews, who were called “our elder brothers” by Pope John Paul II and “our fathers in faith” by Pope Benedict XVI. On this basis, Catholics and other Christian officials started an honest dialogue with Jews that has grown during the last five decades. We appreciate the Church’s affirmation of Israel’s unique place in sacred history and the ultimate world redemption. Today Jews have experienced sincere love and respect from many Christians that have been expressed in many dialogue initiatives, meetings and conferences around the world.
            As did Maimonides and Yehudah Halevi,
            [1] we acknowledge that the emergence of Christianity in human history is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations. In separating Judaism and Christianity, G-d willed a separation between partners with significant theological differences, not a separation between enemies. Rabbi Jacob Emden wrote that “Jesus brought a double goodness to the world. On the one hand he strengthened the Torah of Moses majestically… and not one of our Sages spoke out more emphatically concerning the immutability of the Torah. On the other hand he removed idols from the nations and obligated them in the seven commandments of Noah so that they would not behave like animals of the field, and instilled them firmly with moral traits…..Christians are congregations that work for the sake of heaven who are destined to endure, whose intent is for the sake of heaven and whose reward will not denied.”
            [2] Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch taught us that Christians “have accepted the Jewish Bible of the Old Testament as a book of Divine revelation. They profess their belief in the G-d of Heaven and Earth as proclaimed in the Bible and they acknowledge the sovereignty of Divine Providence.”
            [3] Now that the Catholic Church has acknowledged the eternal Covenant between G-d and Israel, we Jews can acknowledge the ongoing constructive validity of Christianity as our partner in world redemption, without any fear that this will be exploited for missionary purposes. As stated by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel’s Bilateral Commission with the Holy See under the leadership of Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen, “We are no longer enemies, but unequivocal partners in articulating the essential moral values for the survival and welfare of humanity”.
            [4] Neither of us can achieve G-d’s mission in this world alone.
            Both Jews and Christians have a common covenantal mission to perfect the world under the sovereignty of the Almighty, so that all humanity will call on His name and abominations will be removed from the earth. We understand the hesitation of both sides to affirm this truth and we call on our communities to overcome these fears in order to establish a relationship of trust and respect. Rabbi Hirsch also taught that the Talmud puts Christians “with regard to the duties between man and man on exactly the same level as Jews. They have a claim to the benefit of all the duties not only of justice but also of active human brotherly love.” In the past relations between Christians and Jews were often seen through the adversarial relationship of Esau and Jacob, yet Rabbi Naftali Zvi Berliner (Netziv) already understood at the end of the 19th century that Jews and Christians are destined by G-d to be loving partners: “In the future when the children of Esau are moved by pure spirit to recognize the people of Israel and their virtues, then we will also be moved to recognize that Esau is our brother.”
            [5] We Jews and Christians have more in common than what divides us: the ethical monotheism of Abraham; the relationship with the One Creator of Heaven and Earth, Who loves and cares for all of us; Jewish Sacred Scriptures; a belief in a binding tradition; and the values of life, family, compassionate righteousness, justice, inalienable freedom, universal love and ultimate world peace. Rabbi Moses Rivkis (Be’er Hagoleh) confirms this and wrote that “the Sages made reference only to the idolator of their day who did not believe in the creation of the world, the Exodus, G-d’s miraculous deeds and the divinely given law. In contrast, the people among whom we are scattered believe in all these essentials of religion.”
            [6] Our partnership in no way minimizes the ongoing differences between the two communities and two religions. We believe that G-d employs many messengers to reveal His truth, while we affirm the fundamental ethical obligations that all people have before G-d that Judaism has always taught through the universal Noahide covenant.
            In imitating G-d, Jews and Christians must offer models of service, unconditional love and holiness. We are all created in G-d’s Holy Image, and Jews and Christians will remain dedicated to the Covenant by playing an active role together in redeeming the world.
            Initial signatories (in alphabetical order):

            Rabbi Jehoshua Ahrens (Germany)
            Rabbi Marc Angel (United States)
            Rabbi Isak Asiel (Chief Rabbi of Serbia)
            Rabbi David Bigman (Israel)
            Rabbi David Bollag (Switzerland)
            Rabbi David Brodman (Israel)
            Rabbi Natan Lopez Cardozo (Israel)
            Rav Yehudah Gilad (Israel)
            Rabbi Alon Goshen-Gottstein (Israel)
            Rabbi Irving Greenberg (United States)
            Rabbi Marc Raphael Guedj (Switzerland)
            Rabbi Eugene Korn (Israel)
            Rabbi Daniel Landes (Israel)
            Rabbi Steven Langnas (Germany)
            Rabbi Benjamin Lau (Israel)
            Rabbi Simon Livson (Chief Rabbi of Finland)
            Rabbi Asher Lopatin (United States)
            Rabbi Shlomo Riskin (Israel)
            Rabbi David Rosen (Israel)
            Rabbi Naftali Rothenberg (Israel)
            Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger (Israel)
            Rabbi Shmuel Sirat (France)
            Rabbi Daniel Sperber (Israel)
            Rabbi Jeremiah Wohlberg (United States)
            Rabbi Alan Yuter (Israel)

            Subsequent signatories:

            Rabbi David Bauman (USA )
            Rabbi Abraham Benhamu (Peru)
            Rabbi Todd Berman (Israel)
            Rabbi Michael Beyo (USA)
            Rabbi Michael Chernick (USA)
            Rabbi Josef Douziech (Canada)
            Rabbi David Ellis (Canada)
            Rabbi Seth Farber (Israel)
            Rabbi Ben Greenberg (USA)
            Rabbi Yeshayahu Hollander (Israel)
            Rabbi David be Meir Hasson (Chile)
            Rabbi Herzl Hefter (Israel)
            Rabbi Zvi Herberger (Norway/Estonia)
            Rabbi David Jaffe (USA)
            Rabbi David Kalb (USA)
            Rabbi Joseph Kolakowski (USA)
            Rabbi Frederick Klein (USA)
            Rabbi Shaya Kilimnick (USA)
            Rabbi Yehoshua Looks (Israel)
            Rabbi Ariel Mayse (USA)
            Rabbi Bryan Opert (S. Africa)
            Rabbi David Rose (UK)
            Rabbi Daniel Sherbill (USA)
            Rabbi Zvi Solomons (UK)
            Rabbi Yair Silverman (Israel)
            Rabbi Daniel Raphael Silverstein (USA)
            Rabbi Mashada Vaivsaunu (Armenia)
            Rabbi Shmuel Yanklowitz (USA)
            Rabbi Lawrence Zierler (USA)
            Rabbi Avram Rosenfeld (USA)
            Rabbi Aaron Leibowitz (Israel)
            Rose Britton (USA)
            Dina Najman (USA)

          • LarryB says:

            The New ‘Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity’ – An Analysis
            A new statement has been issued at the beginning of the month and signed by a number of purportedly Orthodox Rabbis. The statement is entitled, “To Do the Will of Our Father in Heaven: Toward a Partnership between Jews and Christians.” It was issued by an organization led by Rabbi Shlomo Riskin called, CJCUC.
            Many of the authors and signers on the document are certainly brilliant scholars and thinkers. It is this author’s view, however, that the initiative, unfortunately, contains a number of serious misrepresentations and that the ideas behind the initiative are predicated upon fundamental halachic errors.
            The first paragraph states that there is a historic opportunity to work together with Christian brothers and sisters to address the moral challenges of our era. While it is true that in general, Jews should work together with others to address and improve moral challenges, there is a grave distinction between working together with individuals and working together on broad denominational and organizational level. Like it or not, the churches in which Rabbi Riskin is encouraging us to work with together do not share.
            What is most disturbing, however is that the document in this initiative seems to purposefully distort the Rabbinic views that it cites. An integral aspect of Judaism is honesty. The Talmud (Shabbos 55a) teaches us that “the signet ring of Hashem is Truth.” Maimonides view of Catholicism and other Trinitarian forms of Christianity is that it constituted Avodah Zarah – even for gentiles. Thus to writes that Maimonides acknowledged that “Christianity is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations” when, in reality, he viewed it as a minor step to wean off gentiles from full-fledged polytheism is disingenuous. The language that the Rambam uses is that ultimately they will learn that “sheker nachalu avosaihem.” The same holds true for Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi.
            The document further reads, “In separating Judaism and Christianity, G-d willed a separation between partners with significant theological differences..”
            This too is a mischaracterization of both history and Jewish theology. It is an attempt to “paper over” differences. The great theologians of Judaism all held that the idea of the Trinity was not born of Jewish origin- it’s origins were pagan. Thus, to characterize Christianity and Judaism as “partners” is also disingenuous.
            The citation of Rabbi Jacob Emden is also truncated. According to Judaism there is no “common covenantal mission to perfect the world” – as the initiative would have. Such language and terminology recasts three thousand years of Jewish tradition in a manner that is quite foreign to Jewish tradition and values.
            The truth is that almost all of the denominations of Christianity in which Rabbi Riskin has entered into dialogue with are halachically considered Avodah Zarah.
            There are those, of course, who are members of mainstream denominations of Christianity that do not truly share the theology of their denomination. Their conceptualization of the nature of G-d is, what Rav Elchonon Wasserman describes as intuitive. In an unofficial survey, a good percentage of this country falls under this category.
            There is also the view found in some Poskim that modern day practitioners of the religion are just following the ways of their parents (Maaseh avosaihem b’yadeihem), and do not truly believe in the theological underpinnings (See Shulchan Aruch, YD 148:12; Bach ibid; Responsa Yehudah Yaaleh YD #170).
            Yet to enter into a partnership with the “mother group” is tantamount to partnering with Avodah Zarah.
            There are denominations that even today do not subscribe to a Trinitarian doctrine. Some of these denominations could be construed as believers in shittuf, but not true Avodah Zarah. They are (1) Christadelphians, (2)Christian Scientists, (3)Dawn Bible Students, (4) Friends General Conference, (5) Iglesia ni Criso, (6) J’s Witnesses, (7) Living Church of G-d, (8) Oneness Pentecostals, (9) Members Church of G-d International, (10) Unitarian Universalist Christians, (11) The Way International, (12) The Church of G-d International and (13) the United Church of G-d.
            But even partnering with these groups would be forbidden as well. The Ran’s view (Sanhedrin 61b) is that belief in any religion other than Judaism is also considered Avodah Zarah.
            The well known and published views of both Rabbi Riskin’s Rebbe, Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik and that of Rav Moshe Feinstein is that dialogue with Christian groups can and does lead to devastating results.
            It is this author’s view that the RCA, the Moetzes Gedolei Torah of Agudath Israel, and NCYI should analyze the subject and issue statements condemning this initiative as an unprecedented and serious breach in hashkafa, mesorah and a grave violation of Torah.

          • LarryB says:

            Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity

            CP post can be found here
            http://cjcuc.com/site/2015/12/03/orthodox-rabbinic-statement-on-christianity/

            My post of the analysis can be found here
            http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/371619/the-new-orthodox-rabbinic-statement-on-christianity—an-analysis.html

            Some people like show how many people agree with them. But if 58 people agree with an opinion that’s still only one opinion.

          • Dina says:

            Larry, thanks for the detective work. Once again, this person posts purportedly Orthodox statements with rabbinic authority. Don’t you think I would have heard of at least one rabbi on that list?

            It’s quite possible that some of those signatories are actually Orthodox. There are lots of Orthodox Jews, even rabbis, who say quite foolish things. There are some who are even criminals. This statement is meaningless. Oh, and Larry, I am sure you know that the Dina on the list is most definitely not I.

          • LarryB says:

            Dina
            When they start posting lists of people who agree to support their position you know their desperate.

    • Eleazar Please forgive – I just cut and paste an old list that I had. BTW – don’t you love it when they tell you that you never “really” believed? How do you respond? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • bible819 says:

        Scripture tell us

        We are predestined to adoption to son ship.

        Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings.

        That is why we respond You never really believed.
        Or rather
        God never knew you.

        • Jim says:

          819,

          Maybe they left Torah behind because “God never knew [them].”

          Jim

          • bible819 says:

            Why hasn’t God brought all of Israel back?

            If Yeshua wasn’t the Messiah wouldn’t have God honored Israel for following the Torah.

            The result seems contrary to the obedience of Israel regarding the Torah.

            Unless in the time of Yeshua, Israel was completely Godless.

            You are trusting that Israel’s Leader’s judgment in determining whether the Messiah came or not.

            Maybe they did leave Torah behind, and therefore God is waiting on them and they are waiting on God.

            Yeshua is Grace and not wrath.
            History tells us that all Israel has not returned.

            A certain event must happen!!!! To reteach the Torah?

          • Dina says:

            Bibs, what about Noah and the flood? What about Jacob working for Laban on behalf of Rachel? What about Samson’s tricks to get back at the Philistines?

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,
            Noah is a good example of what happens to the disobedient and how he washed away the filth from the earth. But God said he wouldn’t destroy earth in the same way. Do you think the inhabitants of earth were just as evil or even worse when Israel became like everyone else. Completely Godless. No prophet for a little over 400 years. Option 1 start over, or crush the afflicted 1 for all. Jacob recognized himself in Laban, both sleazy. But God uses Humans as there no difference between Israel and the world. Humans are humans. 1 group had God Laws and turned away. 1 group didn’t have any direction. How could you blame a group with no direction. Yeshua, gives Gentiles God or wrath. Sampson got deceived by a prostitute he loved. Sounds like a human being because that is the nature of humanity. No difference. You and I fail Gods standards, regardless of we are given the Torah.

          • Dina says:

            Bibs, it’s very simple.

            There is one God.
            There is one Torah.
            There is one Israel.

            God is wisdom, love, grace, and understanding. Praise the Lord for He is good, for His loving kindness endureth forever. Amen Hallelujah!

          • bible819 says:

            Agreed. Who is foverever praised through Yeshua to the Glory of Yah. Gods Salvation.

          • Dina says:

            Oh no Bibs, that isn’t right. Moses and Isaiah were prophets. David and Solomon were kings. God is God. God is in heaven and the people of Israel are in exile, but land and sea cover the earth. “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and in their own estimation, of profound understanding!”

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            All those you mentioned fell short.

            I.e Moses didn’t spEak to the rock.

            Yeshua had all of Gods power. Literally God walked among us.

          • Dina says:

            Simon and Levi wiped out the city of Shechem. Jacob cursed their anger.

            “Joshua was old, well on in years, and the Lord said to him, “You have grown old, you are well on in years, and very much land still remains to be possessed.”

            One God, one Torah, one Israel.

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,

            Yeshua gave us your Torah, God, and Salvation.

            Before That.

            Abraham blessed all nations.

            1 God
            1 Messiah
            1 faith
            1 Baptism
            1Spirit!!!

          • Dina says:

            Bibs, God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh.

            Rosh Hashana
            Yom Kippur
            Sukkot
            Passover
            Feast of Weeks
            !!!!!!!

          • CP says:

            Dina,

            Exodus 12
            “The LORD spoke to Moshe and Aharon in the land of Mitzrayim, saying,
            “This month shall be to you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year to you.
            Speak to all the congregation of Yisra’el, saying, ‘On the tenth day of this month, they shall take to them every man a lamb,….”

            (God says Passover comes first)

        • Eleazar says:

          >>>>>We are predestined to adoption to son ship.<<<<

          When you think about it, Calvinistic Christianity is the most evil theology in the history of man. A God that predestines His own creatures to eternal hellfire, with no choice in the matter on the part of the person, BORN damned from the womb, is a God I want nothing to do with. Calvinism is the more evil than Chemosh paganism, unlike pagan sacrificial religions, it imposes and executes one's predestined torture for all eternity.

          Let me put this to you, Bibs. I submit that if you sin, EVER, you too are predestined to eternal hell because God's sovereign grace and spirit cannot be resisted by those chosen to receive it ( two pillars of Calvinism). Such would make God's will subservient to man's, according to Calvin. Either God's sovereign "irresistible grace" and Has own spirit has been bestowed upon you, in which case you have the ultimate power over sin, or it hasn't. The book of Hebrews covers this extensively, as does Romans and John in both his gospel and his epistles.
          You are as damned as any of us "non-believers" if you EVER sin!

          So, are you perfect or are you damned, Bibs? And if you are damned, too bad, because according to Calvinism you cannot choose to be saved. That decision was made by someone else before you were conceived. Had God chosen you to be saved, you would be walking in practical and real total victory over sin. Your nature would be changed and your flesh would NEVER be stronger than God's sovereign and irresistible grace.

          • CP says:

            Eleazar;
            “Calvinistic Christianity is the most evil theology in the history of man.”

            The most evil? Idk, but I’d agree with being towards the top of a top ten list.

            Yeah, it’s pretty bad.

  5. Dina says:

    Dina in the Dock

    My dear friends, I stand before you accused of leveling a false charge against CP. I charged him with lying about the facts of Christian persecution of the Jewish people. I charged him with claiming it didn’t happen.

    CP says that I misrepresented him, and if I misrepresented his arguments, I surely cannot be trusted with representing more important issues.

    CP presented in his defense the statement he made that he thinks I misconstrued:

    “Just three days ago I personally met two Holocaust survivors invited to speak at our synagogue. They tell a different story than you. In fact the story they tell is exactly opposite than yours. Perhaps you can suggest some books for them to read?

    “Both survived the Holocaust by being hidden by various Christians. The punishment for hiding a Jew was the death of yourself and the death of your extended family. I might be wrong, but something tells me you’d never hide a Christian.”

    This wasn’t the comment I had in mind, though personally, I would rather be accused of lying than of being a would-be murderer. Just sayin.

    If CP can’t remember what he said a few seconds ago (okay, I exaggerate), then he can’t be trusted to, well, argue about anything in a meaningful way.

    Below is the exchange that led me to accuse CP of lying about history. All are original quotes, cut and pasted, with emphasis on what I wish to emphasize:

    Dina: Paul, are you saying that the Holocaust, aided and abetted by Christians, was visited on the Jews because they rejected Jesus? …Israel suffered so much at the hands of Christians. Is it because they rejected Jesus?

    CP: …Two Holocaust survivors invited to speak at our synagogue…tell a different story…Both survived the Holocaust by being hidden by various Christians…something tells me you’d never hide a Christian.

    Jim: …This is beyond the pale: “…something tells me you’d never hide a Christian.” The “something” that tells you that is your despite for Dina. These hateful comments…add nothing to the discussion…Dina has many times written thankfully of those Christians that protected Jews. But she knows, and you ought to know, that that is not the full story. Christian Jew-hatred made the Holocaust possible. That you should ignore this fact and heap your vitriol on Dina is both dishonest and disgusting.

    CP: Jim, Didn’t your mother teach you the saying; ‘if you can’t take it, don’t dish it out’? Dina repeatedly stereotypes and targets Christians as the source for Antisemitism as evidenced in her most recent above post. Considering her anti-Christian rhetoric, it is logically doubtful she would risk her life for a Christian the same way Christians have for Jews.

    If I am saying something untrue, I am willing to listen to facts, not empty dialogue.

    Rabbi B.: CP Which part of Dina’s post was rhetoric and not fact? And which part of your post isn’t “empty dialogue”?

    Jim: [Explanation of why he won’t talk to CP anymore. I am fortunate to have such a loyal friend.]

    CP: [to Jim] “Dina did not stereotype Christians”…But below are the facts…“Holocaust, aided and abetted by Christians”…“Israel suffered so much at the hands of Christians.”…Here it is in black and white…If I’m wrong correct me with the facts rather than emotion.

    Rabbi B.: CP Dina stated facts – that’s not stereotyping. Stereotyping would be if she would say that because some Christians killed Jews then all Christians are murderers. CP perhaps you can explain how you see Dina as stereotyping and hate-mongering while John and Matthew’s Jesus are not? After all Dina didn’t get into the spiritual lineage of Christians (children of the devil)

    Folks, if you follow this thread carefully, you can see that CP called my statements that the Holocaust was aided and abetted by Christians and that Israel suffered so much at the hands of Christians “empty dialogue” and not “facts.”

    That is a lie. There is no getting around it. I presented facts. The Holocaust was aided and abetted by Christians. (That’s not to say there weren’t Christians who fought underground against it and risked their lives to save Jews–moving, inspiring, and amazing. But there were many more, way many more, who did not. If not for Christian Jew hatred, there would never have been a need to protect Jews in the first place.) Israel suffered a great deal at the hands of Christians. To deny this is to deny history.

    If CP is honest, he can either retract his statement that what I wrote is not fact, or he can prove it is not fact.

    And while he’s at it, he can apologize for calling me a murderer wanna-be.

    Like Jim, I am done with CP. I was done with him a while ago, when he showed his tendency to play fast and loose with the truth, which is why I stopped talking to him directly.

    But he has shown his true colors.

    I am satisfied that I have not only smashed the foundations of CP’s arguments but also swept all the rubble into the dumpster. I have nothing more to add to our dialogue, and I wish to no longer waste energy defending myself from CP’s character assassination. It may be all he has left, but I’m not sticking around to be his target.

  6. Concerned Reader says:

    CP, I want to try and help you understand where Dina and Rabbi B are coming from. When a Christian hears Jesus’ message, he/she hears that they should be peaceful, shoud go the extra mile, be a good Samaritan, and always aide one who is suffering. (because those teachings are in there.)

    That is not what a Jew sees when they read a New Testament. A Jew sees Pharisees (the ancestors of their Talmudic rabbis,) mocked as cold, unbending, heartless, religious hypocrites who love to do the will of their father the Devil. This is not only dangerous rhetoric, it is patently false rhetoric as anyone knows who has actually studied the way rabbinic Jews apply their laws in daily life.

    You yourself have seen Dina post the rabbinic equivalents of Jesus’ core ethical principles. Do you know why the gospel authors don’t point out those paralells? Its because they never even tried to learn the Jewish position, because the New Testament portrays the rabbis as venemous white washed walls. Its a tough (almost unconcious) wall that Christians are hard pressed to break through.

    Though there is only one verse in the New Testament where Jesus actually says, “take those who would not have me be king over them, and kill them in front of me,” the vitriol against Judaism’s leaders was bound to spill over and effect innocent people. It was an inevitable outcome when those episodes were in sermons preached to illiterate peasants every sunday. Are you aware of passion plays? At easter? Imagine a mob of Lutherans going and burning a Shul down after a passion play. That used to happen a lot.

    Consider that the Christian Bible makes it worse when it says there are no truly innocent people, based on reading a couple verses from Tanakh.

    While it is very true that Jesus instructs Christians in some very good moral lessons, some of his other teachings actually negate the effectiveness of his good teachings.
    When Jesus tells his disciples to wipe the dust from their sandals when they encounter an unperceptive city, or he instructs people not to resist evil, this leads (possibly unintentionally) to a very deadly ambivalence towards violence, an ambivalence to the plight of others in Christian thinking, and I don’t think Christians realize it.

    Since Christians believe that man has a fallen nature, they have the unfortnate tendancy (as I have experienced it 1st hand,) to say, “well, that’s how its supposed to be,” when they see injustice in the world. Many a time have I heard, “it will only get better when Jesus comes back.”
    That is diametrically opposed to Abraham’s example of acting.

    There were indeed voices of tolerance in the Church, lights in the darkness, etc. but there were throngs of people who stood back and waited, or worse, participated in the climate of evil via their indifference.

    They did not resist evil when it came to take their Jewish brethren to put them in Ghettos. Religious Christians (for centuries) have had great apathy to suffering due to their interpretations of curses of the law, and because of their views of man’s nature.

    You can have the holiest message in the world, but if you do not act in favor of the G-dly bits, you are just as much a cause of the issues.

    This is the core issue with the Christian argument that Catholics are not real Christians, or Eastern Orthodox are not real Christians, or those who did evil were not real Christians.

    In the Christian world, I often heard the saying as a kid, “there was only one real Christian, Jesus Christ.” IE we can’t stop the evil when it arises, Jesus said so.

    This is the toxic apathy that I mentioned earlier. Guys like Luther, Calvin, Chrysostom, etc. used rhetoric very similar to what we find in the gospels, (and much much worse) but nobody ever voiced outrage at what these men wrote, or against the actions they advocated.

    Nobody wrote volumes of literature asking, “How do these literary works jive with the ethics of Christ?”

    Ethics of Christ weren’t as important as faith in Jesus and his cross to save your sinful soul.

    When Dina says Hitler couldn’t have got off the ground without Christianity, it doesn’t mean that the New Testament lacks the ethical teachings that could have prevented the violence in the holocaust.

    Its literally highlighting the fact that the New Testament message hinders your ability to carry out those ethics. It does not actively encourage you to act when you see another who fits your view of a sinner suffering.

    Suffering is always deemed as a just chastening, and as a redemptive gift to a Christian view. Its not something to actively be resisted according to the gospels. That apathy is part and parcel of Yeshua’s message, and its the most dangerous aspect that bred the wickedness that made Hitler’s atrocities inevitable.

  7. Concerned Reader says:

    . Considering her anti-Christian rhetoric, it is logically doubtful she would risk her life for a Christian the same way Christians have for Jews.

    If I am saying something untrue, I am willing to listen to facts, not empty dialogue.

    CP, there is nothing logical about what you have imputed to Dina.

    Jews may accuse Christians of worshiping a man as G-d, IE of foreign service due to Torah ruling. That said, Just because you engage in foreign service, it does not make you a sub human, or unworthy of a life to be saved if you are in trouble.

    Naamaan the Syrian believed in G-d, but he was also active in Avodah Zarah (by proxy of his boss.) The prophet wished him well.

    Balaam was an idolater who tried to unjustly use his knowledge of G-d to hurt Israel, G-d used him as the 1st prophet to prophesy the coming of Moshiach.

    Moses’ father in law was a priest of Idolatry. He was still respected as a human being by Moses.

    It is the Christian theological worldview I believe that is making you believe that Dina would simply not save you if she could, because she believes you are guilty of heresy.

    A Jew would not allow you to die. In fact, it would more likely be Christians historically who would cheer as their heretics die.

    It is very mean and insensitive to think that someone you don’t even know would let you die because you are a Christian. It is a testament to the fact that you may believe that a human is depraved.

    Do you know the story of Elisha Ben Abuyah? Acher? His student still learned from him, still respected his rabbi, even after he was excommunicated.

    This is what I mentioned about the ethics of Jesus being totally neutralized by Christian theology and its assumptions.

    Here we have a nice lady, (Dina) who YOU KNOW SHARES YOUR ETHICAL CODE IE TORAH! Yet, you see it as unlikely (in light of her rhetoric) that she would save you if you were in trouble. You think it is logical that she would act with the kind of Apathy that Christians have acted with throughout their history.

    What you have written shows that Jesus’ ethics get utterly neutralized by the theological assumptions about human nature that Christians make. Dina could live exactly like Jesus, but because she doesn’t call him messiah, something is broken with her ability to treat you in a humane fashion.

    You have said that you heard survivors speak who were saved by Christians. You do know that Christian Jews were killed by Christian Germans because they had Jewish ancestry? Are you aware of Churchmen persecuting Converso’s because they clung to their Jewishness?

  8. CP says:

    Concerned Reader,

    Thanks, I appreciate your posts. You should know by now I am aware and accept as true (with reservations) the information you posted about Christian writings being used to fuel and justify antisemitism.

    This is not the point — the point is:

    Dina doesn’t like being exposed for doing the same thing she is accusing others of and is currently throwing a temper tantrum. (name calling, falsities, attempted character assassination and playing the victim).

    All because it was pointed out to her she stereotypes Christians throughout history as Jew haters when in fact Christians have aided and abetted in saving an untold multitude of Jews. When pressed on this fact she reluctantly gives it a courteous mention, often belittling the facts choosing rather to focus on the murderous Christians, their evil writings and their slanderous leader which are the impetus for every persecution the Jews have ever known.

    When it is pointed out to Dina true Christians who follow Yeshua lay down their lives for others as Yeshua laid his life down for others and the ones she points to as Christians are in name only, not Christians by definition, (Christ follower). Dina dismisses this as a ‘lame, lame excuse’, returning to her exposé of hate.

    Concerned Reader, people must look at the facts and not get sucked into all this drama and hate mongering by stereotyping others designed to create division and prejudice.

    Let’s look at some really simple facts:

    Christian Scripture is not ‘filled’ with hate speech against Jews. In the Gospels are accounts of Yeshua describing some religious leaders in the most unflattering terms. These same leaders had him killed.

    What does this mean to us?
    All Christians should hate all Jews because all Jews are murderers?
    That’s absurd, the account is about a specific group of corrupt evil individuals. So should we stereotype all Jews, making an exception for a few good ones, in the same way Dina stereotypes all Christians in history making exceptions for a few good ones?

    Would you think it fair to judge all of Orthodox Judaism by Dina’s reaction to me?

    • CP It was pointed out to you that that the words that Dina has used to describe the historical phenomena of Christian anti-Semtism are far more measured and far more mild than are the words that the Jesus of the gospels uses to describe the phenomena of Jewish corruption – why do you call Dina’s words “hate-mongering” but Jesus’ words are somehow not? Can you please explain your position on this? By the way – Dina’s words are far more measured than are your own in this very comment of yours – nowhere did Dina write that the Christian Scriptures are guilty of EVERY persecution against Jews – yet you accuse her of writing just that – according to your own standards – your words are “hate-mongering” – or can you perhaps explain how we have misunderstood your words?

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Dina says:

        Thank you, Rabbi B.!

      • CP says:

        R’B,
        I admit I shouldn’t of used “every”, therefore I retract this and apologize for this using this word. However it was used because of the general perceived attitude displayed in Dina’s writings accusing Christians of the Holocaust.

        • CP Are you planning to throw out the Christian Scriptures because of the perceived attitude displayed there about all Jews? (an attitude that was perceived by most scholars reading those books for centuries on end – as opposed to Dina’s writings where you seem to be the only one getting this impression) I didn’t perceive from Dina’s comment that every last Christian shares the guilt of the holocaust – but there is no question that many Christians – as Christians (followers of Jesus – as the gospels portray him) DO indeed share the guilt of the holocaust? Do you realize that this is a very relevant factor in the discussion about Jesus? In short – Dina did not exaggerate the guilt of the Church in this area – it seems perhaps that you are not fully aware of the enormity of guilt shared by the Church in the holocaust (again – not all Christians – but many Churches – through their teachings – for centuries on end) – did you ever try to educate yourself on this subject?

          1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            Dina, doesn’t mention the Church, she constantly points to “Christians”. However in the interest of moving away from drama, I’ll only address what you’ve posted on the topic.

            1) How can any rational person make the accusation Yeshua exhibits reasonable cause for a “perceived attitude displayed there about all Jews when (a) Yeshua is a Jew (b) there are no general statements made about Jews (c) there are only recorded dialogs between specific individuals.

            2) I think it is fair to say how a person approaches a delicate subject reveals their heart. (a) Because of the inflammatory nature of the topic I always do my best to be specific, for example; (religious leaders rather than Jews) & (Christian Scriptures rather than New Testament) etc… (b) Others here callously make sweeping general statements either intentionally or out of ignorance of the inflammatory nature of the topic.

            3) Who shares the guilt of the Holocaust? Besides the Nazis, every person on earth who knew and was able to act but did nothing — this includes Jews also! There was only one (as far as I know) armed defense in a small ghetto by the Jews. Some Jews did not escape even when they had a chance — (this is really odd).

            4) Did I ‘ever try to educate myself on the subject?’ Yes, in balance with other pertinent subjects. But dwelling too much on hate and the wrong doing of others poisons the soul.

            5) R’B, I’ve been called a liar, holocaust denier and wrongfully accused of calling others muderers etc… for pointing out their insensitive generalizing approach to this subject is equally viewed by others as hate speech. (I would have hoped Orthodox Judaism was above this kind of thing)

          • CP

            1 – There are statements against all who don’t believe – specifically Jews

            2 – And “religious leaders” is not “specific” – it is a broad brush that includes saintly people whose writings we have today

            3 – The guilt of the holocaust is shared by those who poisoned the mind of the Europeans against the Jews for generations

            4 – If you haven’t studied the subject – it isn’t so wise to comment on it

            5 – People are people – we all could be more delicate

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            1) No more or less than the Tanach teaches only in God is salvation. There are no statements from Yeshua specifically against Jews in general even though Yeshua was sent specifically only to Jews

            2) “Religious leaders” is specific to the context being discussed. If the context is ambiguous then which “religious leader” is specified.

            3) I’ve never argued or objected this wasn’t a contributing factor. However I speculate fear of the Nazis was the primary factor for believing what they wanted.

            4) I never said I didn’t study the subject, I’ve haven’t studied it as deeply as other subjects in this arena, but studied enough to know and engage in discussion. I’ve read just about all the antisemitic writings of church fathers I could find because I didn’t want to just take other people’s word for it —I know what’s going on.

            5) Amen Amen. I can only pray we are, and do my part.

          • CP 1 – Matthew 23:37; 27:25 2 – You yourself understood “religious leaders” to mean all the religious leaders of the Jews for the past 2000 years – as do most readers of the Christian Scriptures 3 – “contributing factor” does not do justice to molding the minds of nations for years and years and teaching them that Jews are subhuman and that it is a virtue to hate them 4 – It is clear that you didn’t study this subject -which books did you read? 5 – Prayer is only one part of our duty

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • RT says:

            “2) “Religious leaders” is specific to the context being discussed. If the context is ambiguous then which “religious leader” is specified.”

            How can anybody generalize ALL Jewish leaders in the same basket. If we generalize everybody in the same group, that becomes a dangerous teaching. Some only went a little farther. If the Leaders are all corrupted, then the followers must also be. It’s only logical that they would follow the leaders! I could barely see nation that has corrupted leaders and expect his inhabitants to be moral people…

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            There are two separate issues here, I’ll address the first in this comment and the second in another.

            You’ve stated not “EVERY” Jewish persecution has been a result of Christian antisemitic writings. You’ve also stated Christian antisemitic writings have been “more than a contributing factor” to Jewish persecution.
            — Good, now we have some identifiable parameters; 50% to 99.9% —

            So in your educated opinion do you think Christian antisemitic writings contributed to 65%, 75%, 85% or 95% of Jewish Persecutions. Just pick a number and I’ll agree.
            — Okay, good, now we have a number. So now what? —

            What does this mean to you? What are you inferring this should mean to me? That Christianity is wrong because the Church and others perverted the teachings of Yeshua resulting in X amount of Jewish persecution?
            — Okay, I could agree with that. —

            But it doesn’t stop there does it? The goal is to is dismiss Yeshua as a false prophet, reasoning because others after him perverted his teachings resulting in X amount of Jewish persecution this should identify him as a false prophet. I’m sure you realize this is non-sequitur. Therefore this leaves you with no choice except to go after the Gospel writings themselves.
            — Which brings us to the heart of the issue to be discussed in the next comment —

          • CP You misunderstand my words. When I said “more than” I wasn’t speaking in terms of quantity I was speaking in terms of quality – I think that it is wrong to describe the Church’s teaching on the Jews as a “contributing factor” to the holocaust – the words “contributing factor” are far too mild to describe the role of the Church in that crime.

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            Matthew 27:25

            “His blood be on us, and on our children.—The passionate hate of the people leads them, as if remembering the words of their own Law, to invert the prayer—which Pilate’s act had, it may be, brought to their remembrance—“Lay not innocent blood to Thy people of Israel’s charge” (Deuteronomy 21:8), into a defiant imprecation. No more fearful prayer is recorded in the history of mankind; and a natural feeling has led men to see its fulfilment in the subsequent shame and misery that were for centuries the portion of the Jewish people. We have to remember, however, that but a fractional part of the people were present; that some at least of the rulers, such as Joseph of Arimathæa, Nicodemus, and probably Gamaliel, had not consented to the deed of blood (Luke 23:51), and that even in such a case as this it is still true that “the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezekiel 18:20), except so far as he consents to it, and reproduces it.”

            (From Ellicott’s Commentary)

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            What here in Matthew 23:37 does Yeshua say that the prophets hadn’t already said?
            (“Jeremiah 2:30 In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion”)

            If your going to dismiss Yeshua’s words here as antisemitic hate speech, you’re going to have to take a pair of scissors or whiteout to the Tanach. Furthermore verse 37 in context delivers a prophecy.

            Matthew 23:36-39
            “Most assuredly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

            “Yerushalayim, Yerushalayim, who kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!

            Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

            For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'”

            R’B I ask you; did the prophecy come true? Were Yeshua’s words different than the prophets? On what grounds do you reject this verses you posted?

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            I think this is the real reason you must reject Yeshua as a false prophet:

            “Hear another parable. There was a man who was a master of a household, who planted a vineyard, set a hedge about it, dug a winepress in it, built a tower, leased it out to farmers, and went into another country.

            When the season for the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the farmers, to receive his fruit.

            The farmers took his servants, beat one, killed another, and stoned another.

            Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they treated them the same way.

            But afterward he sent to them his son, saying, ‘They will respect my son.

            But the farmers, when they saw the son, said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and seize his inheritance.’

            So they took him, and threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him.

            When therefore the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers?”

            They told him, “He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will lease out the vineyard to other farmers, who will give him the fruit in its season.”

            Yeshua said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?

            “Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruits.

            He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it will fall, it will scatter him as dust.”

            When the chief Kohanim and the Perushim heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them.

            When they sought to seize him, they feared the multitudes, because they considered him to be a prophet.”

            (Matthew 21)

          • CP Here is an excerpt from my response to Dr. Brown concerning this evil parable > > Then Brown goes on to one of the most staggering arguments in this > five volume series (and there are no shortage of these): /“Or consider > this parable of Jesus, one that proved to be incredibly prophetic just > forty years after his death and resurrection:/ > > / / > > /“Listen to another parable: there was a landowner who planted a > vineyard, he put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a > watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away > on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants > to the tenants to collect his fruit. The tenants seized his servants; > they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent more > servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated > them the same way. Last of all , he sent his son to them. ‘They will > respect my son’ he said./ > > / / > > /But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is > the heir, Come, let’s kill him and take away the inheritance.’ So they > took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him./ > > / / > > /Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to > those tenants?/ > > / / > > /“He will bring those wretches to an evil end” they replied, “and he > will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share > of the crop at the harvest time.”/ > > / / > > /Jesus said to them, “have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The > stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done > this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?/ > > / / > > /Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from > you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on > this stone will be broken to pieces but he on whom it falls will be > crushed.” (Matt. 21:33-44)/ > > / / > > /Do you understand his words? / > > > > This is a teaching of Jesus that Brown is proudly holding up as an > example of Jesus’ amazing ethical and spiritual insight with no > parallel in the rabbinic writings. > > > > Indeed. You will not find a parallel to this in any of the rabbinic > writings, and for good reason. This evil parable of Jesus is a > blood-soaked stain on the history of Christianity. > > > > What is the point of the parable? And how does Brown see its > fulfillment forty years after Jesus’ death? > > > > The owner of the vineyard is God, while the tenants are the Jewish > people. The son of the landowner is Jesus and the murder of the son is > the crucifixion of Jesus. In the parable, Jesus tells us the motives > behind the murder of the son of the landowner: “/But when the tenants > saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir, Come, let’s > kill him and take away the inheritance/”. In other words, they > identified landowner’s son as the landowner’s son, and they killed him > because they wanted his inheritance. To transpose this onto the events > surrounding the crucifixion, Jesus is saying that the Jews who killed > him knew that he was who claimed to be, and killed him because they > somehow thought that by killing him they would take that which belongs > to him. Jesus is not done. He tells us that the guilt of the tenants > belongs to all of them and the whole lot of them will be punished by > having the vineyard taken from them. In the real world, he puts the > guilt of the crucifixion upon all the Jews and tells them that the > kingdom of God will be taken from them and given to others. Brown sees > a fulfillment to this pronouncement in the destruction of the Second > Temple and in the rise of the Church. > > > > Words fail to convey the evil that is inherent to this parable. > > > > How many Jews were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus? – perhaps a > handful. Why did they want to kill him? According to the very same > Christian Scriptures we have two answers to this question; either > because they considered Jesus to be a blasphemer (Matthew 26:65), or > because they were frightened of the Roman reaction to his claims (John > 11:50). The accusation that is implicit in Jesus’ parable, namely that > the Jews KNEW that he was who he claimed to be and killed him anyway – > has no basis in reality. The idea that they killed him because they > wanted something that belonged to him is ridiculous to begin with. > What did he have that they thought they could take. The idea that all > the Jewish people are guilty for the crimes of a few, is also immoral > and unethical. Yet on the basis of this teaching, Christian Europe > decided that all the Jews are guilty of deicide – having committed the > sin, with full knowledge of the severity of the act. > > > > This lead to teachings of hate and dehumanization that have their > roots on this evil parable, but continued to flourish in what Brown > sees as an /“incredibly prophetic” /fulfillment of Jesus’ words. As > the Church spread, so did its Jew-hatred deepen – persecution, of > every sort, incitement to murder, murder, Crusades, Inquisition and > holocaust – all have their roots in this evil parable. And this is > what Brown holds up as something we should be impressed with? > > > > Just look at the hypocrisy – which is really too small a word to > describe two millennia of crime. It was a few Jews who killed Jesus > who never believed for a second that he was the son of God. Brown is > satisfied with the judgment that all Jews should now lose the kingdom > of God. So who inherited that kingdom? Who are the good tenants that > Brown is happy to see tending the vineyard as an expression of justice > served? The Church! The Church who killed and tortured millions of > people who are explicitly identified by Scripture as God’s firstborn > son (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:8). If the killing of one son requires > that you lose the kingdom, what does the killing of several million do > for you? But for Brown, justice is served. The Jews lost it, and the > Church got it – and Brown sees this as an /“incredibly prophetic” > /fulfillment!? > > >

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            You write:
            “You will not find a parallel to this in any of the rabbinic > writings, and for good reason”

            I find this hard to believe considering what Isaiah and Jeremiah said about the vineyard. For example:
            Isaiah 5:5
            Now I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard. I will take away its hedge, and it will be eaten up. I will break down its wall of it, and it will be trampled down.
            ——————————–

            R’B,
            Both you and Brown are reading into the parable things that are not there. Perhaps the biggest thing being read-in is this:
            “The Jews lost it, and the > Church got it – and Brown sees this as an /“incredibly prophetic” > /fulfillment!? > > >”

            The fact the vinyard was taken away is incontestable. However if you read the verse you’ll see the vineyard is given to an “ethnicity” or nation —- this disqualifies the Church as a possibility. Rather an appropriate choice fitting with all of Scripture is this “nation” is the Israel of latter days.
            ——————————–

            R’B,
            This parable of Yeshua’s is nothing new; the Prophets spoke the same things. You already know all this. My second biggest question to you is;
            ‘Do you personally support the religious leaders who set up Yeshua to be killed?’

    • CP Your description of Dina actually fits the Jesus of the gospels so much more accurately – Temper tantrums, name calling, character assassination, playing the victim, ignoring the fact that it was Jews who preserved the words of the prophets and blaming almost every unjust persecution on earth on the Jews – I couldn’t have said it better myself

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • CP says:

        R’B,
        That’s the point. Dina is engaging in the same behavior she accuses Yeshua of.

        She may be a very nice person otherwise, I don’t judge her as a person, but I am looking at her writings the same way she looks at Christian writings and saying this kind of thing needs to stop for everyone.

        • Pau summers says:

          Hello
          Why does everyone focus only what Jesus said and ignore what God promised Israel if they failed to follow His words, statutes etc.

          If you compare the texts of the Hebrew Bible with the NT texts, the details are staggering. The Hebrew texts are very descriptive about devine punishment explaining severe punishment. The NT hardly explained such, it merely touches the subject in a broad way. You could actually say Christ just reaffirms what His Father promised.
          The Body of Christ hasn’t murdered Jews because Jesus was murdered ( He was wasnt murdered)) Hello????
          The house of Israel have been sadly punished as a consequence of rejecting their God Messiah, and rejecting the offer of the Messianic Kingdom.

  9. Dina says:

    Christian Contempt

    Over the years, I have received a number of different responses from Christians to the question, “Why do you think that the Jews, alone among all cultural/religious groups in Europe, resisted the message of Christianity and rejected Jesus?”

    These are the answers I have received:

    1. The Jews are spiritually blind.
    2. The Jews know the truth, but are maliciously stubborn.
    3. It’s all part of God’s mysterious plan.
    4. God is keeping the Jews as witnesses to the truth of Jesus.
    5. Jesus, the true Messiah, was not what Jews had come to expect.
    6. Jews rejected Jesus because they hate gentiles (I kid you not).

    I do not know how Christians can believe answers 1 and 4, which effectively mean the same thing: either because of a spiritual deficiency or because God wills it, Jews lack the free will to accept Jesus. Nevertheless, they are punished for it. Christians believe that the sacking of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, and the subsequent suffering in exile is the result of rejecting Jesus. Is it just and merciful for God to take away the free will of an entire people and then punish them for it?

    The common rejoinder to this argument is that God removed Pharaoh’s free will by hardening his heart. Jewish tradition deals with this problem, but it must be noted that God Himself taught us we have free will. If you examine Genesis 4:7; Deuteronomy 30:11-15, 19:-20; Ezekiel 18 and 33, you will see that these passages represent clear and open teachings on free will. Therefore, whatever your opinion, the story about Pharaoh must be understood in light of these teachings as a rare exception. As far as I know, there is not a single other instance in the Bible wherein God hardens someone’s heart, removing his free will.

    So how do Christians believe 1 and 4? They believe this because their scripture tells them so. More on that in a moment.

    The second answer is also the influence of Christian scripture. Again, more on that soon.

    The third answer is intellectually lazy, the answer of a Christian who would rather not think about it, so I won’t address it. (This answer was presented to me by a good friend and former neighbor.)

    As for the last two, when Christians have been trying to persuade Jews to convert for 2000 years and have failed miserably–and not for lack of trying, that’s for sure!–and they still can’t articulate the Jewish position on Jesus, then one thing becomes clear: For 2000 years they have not been listening. Indeed, they have been preaching at us, unwilling or unable to open their minds and hearts to hear us out with compassion and understanding.

    Where does this attitude come from?

    The Christian scriptures teach that when the Jews read their own Scripture, a veil covers their eyes (2 Corinthians 3:14-15). They also teach that the Jews do not love God and do not even believe Moses (John 5:42, 47).

    The idea that God preserved the Jews as a witness to Jesus is not found in Christian scripture to the best of my knowledge, but was promulgated by Augustine. Nevertheless, his teachings greatly influenced Christendom (some for better, some for worse; this topic is beyond the scope of this article). Therefore, this idea is still in circulation today, though less popular than it was formerly.

    The Christian scriptures teach that the Jews knew who Jesus was and killed him because they wanted his inheritance (Luke 20:9-19).

    The Christian scriptures teach that even the gentiles saw the goodness of Jesus, yet the Jews bayed for his blood. The gospels show Pontius Pilate trying to reason with the crowd, then washing his hands of the matter, while the Jews proclaim, “His blood be upon us and upon our children!”

    These last two teachings not only charge the Jews with deicide, but charge them so for all time. Most Christians today reject the eternal charge of deicide. Still, they see a man who displayed the quintessence of kindness, goodness, mercy, and wisdom; and they imagine that only hate-filled, or malicious, or jealous Jews could have handed him over to the Romans to be killed. Till today, in their view, only Jews who are spiritually blind, arrogant in their expectation of the Messiah (an article on this topic is forthcoming), malicious, or hateful could possibly reject this righteous man, who out of his great love of mankind, laid down his life for them. How could there be any other reason?

    Truly, greater contempt hath no man.

    Yet the irony is that Christians are unaware of this contempt or its source. They sincerely believe they love the Jewish people, they support Israel, they are kind and gracious to us. Are we grateful for this? And how! I remember getting goosebumps listening to Pastor John Hagee talk about his love for the Jewish people and support for Israel. We have gratefully accepted the olive branch. We have few friends in the world, and we do not lightly dismiss the support of our Christian, Israel-supporting friends.

    Yet if you talk to a Christian long enough about religion, you will find this contempt for the Jew and Judaism bubbling just below the surface. It is simply not respectful to assume the above about anyone; these reasons for Jewish rejection of Jesus mark the Christian’s contempt for the Jew.

    You need only look to the Christian scriptures to see from whence this poison silently flows into the subconsciousness of the Christian mind, while the sincere and well-meaning Christian is oblivious to the infection of Jew hatred subtly and quietly implanted in his soul.

    • bible819 says:

      Dina, we don’t hate the Jews in the West. We place a huge emphasis that our prosperity depends on having God 1st and loving Gods Blood line.
      In your opinion where does Israel stand with God?
      More specifically, Spiritually, Following the Torah, and bringing salvation to the Gentiles?
      We as Christians believe: we know the Father as merciful, kind and abounding in love. Yeshua gave us this perspective not the followers of Judiasm.

      We believe the messiah came and he was no other than God himself. We don’t believe a Human could accomplish saving the world. Yeshua gave us this perspective not Judaism.
      Point being, YESHUA taught us about God. No one else. We are forever, a remnant of Gentiles, are thankful for this.
      New Covenant believers believe
      Israel became like the world as they did with many times before. The world had no direction before YESHUA. Now the world has the Lord to the Glory of the Father.

      You have the Torah so do we. We just know that we fail every day. YESHUA did it for us, but we try to produce fruit in keeping repentance. But know human beings are sinful with no difference with your flesh and blood. The soul is what counts. Many evil souls were inJewish flesh as with Gentile flesh. God is great. we were children without a Father, creating many gods in search for God. Thanks be to YESHUA who was killed by flesh. Raised from death to Life. With David, God looks at a Shepard and makes him King. God comes to serve and not to be served. Yeshua is amazing. Amen

      • CP says:

        bible819,
        “With David, God looks at a Shepard and makes him King.”——- I love this sentence! And God looks at an itinerant Jewish preacher and makes him Messiah.

        • bible819 says:

          CP,
          You have such an anoiting. I always read your posts and know that you have the Father and Son. Thanks for the compliment. Keep responding, it’s More than flesh and blood that you are battling with. Lasly, you correct with your 2 king, 1 seed parallel.

  10. Jim says:

    It is sometimes troubling to Christians that typically a Jewish believer in Jesus is Torah ignorant. Even a celebrated Christian Jew like Dr. Michael Brown grew up in a Torah deficient environment. Because, at the time when a Jewish believer comes to faith in Jesus, his decision is uninformed, it is suggestive that his decision is a mistake based in ignorance. And the question must then be asked, why does the Torah knowledgeable Jew not put his faith in Jesus? One can see how this might trouble the Christian. Inasmuch as Jesus is supposed to fulfill the Torah, it appears to delegitimize their faith when the Torah expert does not put his faith in Jesus and the inexpert Jew does. For this reason, if a Torah observant Jew—better yet, a rabbi—puts his faith in Jesus, this person’s ‘testimony’ becomes very important. The Christian faith does not seem so illegitimate when a Torah observant Jew signs up.

    Only a few weeks ago, I wrote a comment related to this topic under a different blog post. Briefly I discussed why the Torah ignorant read Isaiah 53 and believe that it sounds like Jesus. I pointed out that the Torah ignorant did not know the overall context of Isaiah. And I pointed out that the reading of the Hebrew Scriptures has been shaped by 2,000 years of Christian interpretation the majority of which Christian culture has been dominant in the West. A commenter recently on this blog post listed a handful of Jews that believe in Jesus. The story of one of the women in the list is helpful for understanding my argument, as the Christian missionary is successful due both to the woman’s ignorance of the Hebrew Scriptures and the influence of the Church in Western culture.

    The list consists of the following names:

    Rose Price
    David Yaniv
    Sergey Katchanov
    Sharon Allen
    Frieda Roos
    R. Mathetes
    Moran Rosenblit

    Their stories can be read here: http://www.jewishvoice.org/who-is-yeshua/jews-who-believe/

    This essay will focus on Frieda Roos. Please let the reader understand that the intent of this essay is not to mock Ms. Roos. That her Torah education was neglected is not her fault. Nor is it her fault that someone was able to use her ignorance against her. This essay is only concerned with the realities that are facing Torah ignorant Jews in the modern age.

    But it should be pointed out that the commenter that referenced Frieda Roos and the others in the list added them to a conversation about how many Torah observant, Torah knowledgeable Jews put their faith in Jesus. The commenter presented them as if these seven people would be part of the community of believers that knew Torah before coming to Jesus. But if the reader will follow the link to their stories, he will find that largely they were not Torah observant and largely ignorant of the Torah.

    Frieda Roos did not grow up with a Torah education. To the contrary, she writes: “[My parents] never talked about God, and I had never been in a synagogue except for my brother’s wedding. For me, Yom Kippur meant a day off from school…”. Ms. Roos was deprived of her heritage, growing up in a home where God was not even mentioned. While she did not visit the synagogue, she did frequent a Catholic church with her boyfriend in her teenage years. This appears to be the extent of her religious education.

    Afterward, Frieda Roos suffered through the Holocaust. The details are there for those who wish to read them. While those things through which she suffered had an enormous impact on her life and ought not be minimized, they are of little relevance to this topic. After surviving the Holocaust, Ms. Roos was beset by several Christians telling her about Jesus. She then contacted a pastor who put her in touch with a German woman that had been married to a Jewish man who was at this time deceased. And she and that woman argued about Jesus for six weeks:

    “For the next six weeks I argued with her until she asked me to read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Reading Isaiah 53, I did not understand a single word. Then, as promised, I started reading Psalm 22, and coming to the 16th verse where it says ‘they pierced my hands and my feet,’ I let out one big yell, ‘Oh my God, that is Jesus, because He was crucified!’”

    “I remembered all the Christian paintings I had seen years earlier in that church in Amsterdam. Suddenly all of it made sense. I went back to the 53rd Chapter of Isaiah and now I understood each and every word. Hallelujah!”

    Please let the reader take note that the Christian presented Frieda Roos with the classic missionary text, Isaiah 53. Again, it is as if the whole rest of Isaiah did not exist. It is as if the whole rest of Tanach did not exist. And experiencing the passage in a vacuum, Ms. Roos could not understand it.

    What convinces her is Psalm 22:16, that the psalm says “they pierced my hands and my feet.” Notice that she links this to the Christian paintings she saw. Her reading of the Hebrew Scriptures is based on Christian culture. Used to seeing Jesus with his hands and feet pierced, her mind relates the figure in the psalm to Jesus. It is Christian imagery that interprets the psalm for her.

    Tragically, she is a victim to her ignorance. Psalm 22:16 says nothing about hands or feet being pierced. But it is unlikely that Frieda Roos reads Hebrew, and relying upon the Christian translation, she does not know that it does not say, “pierced” but “like a lion”. Relating the verse to Jesus based on the imagery of the Church is an understandable error, but it is an error and a significant one. And it is made in part because she cannot read the text, which does not say what she thinks it says. And it is made in part because her interpretive lens is not Torah but Christian paintings. She has been suffused with Christian culture.
    Only after she sees Jesus in Psalm 22 and relates it to the paintings in a church does she have an idea for understanding Isaiah 53. Now the Suffering Servant makes sense to her. Again, she does not understand this through the lens of Torah and through the lens of the rest of Isaiah. She understands it through one psalm, primarily one verse, which does not say what she has been told it says and which she understands through the paintings in a church.

    That the commenter would present her as a knowledgeable Jew believing in Jesus is quite bizarre. Unfortunately, Frieda Roos represents the Torah ignorant Jew who has been deceived by a bad translation and the dominant Christian culture. Her parents did her a grave injustice by denying her the Torah and knowledge of God. Like so many other Jews that believe in Jesus, she did not know enough to understand what she was being told. Denied her heritage in youth, it continued to elude her later in life.

    Of course, this does not mean that no Torah observant Jews ever put their faith in Jesus. But those cases do not appear to be typical. For 2,000 years, the Torah observant community has put their faith in God and not a man. They have not been misled by bad translations of verses or verses ripped out of context. Because of their knowledge of Torah, by and large, the Torah community has been faithful. But those who did not know Torah and did not know the Prophets, they were misled. One can only hope that they return home soon.

    Jim

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