Differences – a letter from Eleazar

These are things that are defined differently between the two religions. I came to the conclusion that the kind of cleansing and holiness required by God according to Christianity was not possible within the framework of the Christian faith. As I have posted elsewhere, the book of Hebrews proclaims that the superiority of Christianity is based on its ability to overcome sin COMPLETELY, to the point of never needing another sacrifice for as long as you live, by changing one’s nature from that of sinner to that of never-sinning saint. This is echoed by Romans 8:1 , which states that “there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus , WHO WALK ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”. IN other words, one who walks accordion to the flesh is condemned. It is only by “walking in the spirit” that one avoids condemnation according to Paul. This is because belief in Jesus leads to indwelling of the holy spirit, which in turn causes one to never sin again, for it is GOD who is “doing the works” ( John 14:10) and not the man. If one is walking according to the spirit,says Paul, it is NOT POSSIBLE to sin!

The reality is that this is an empty and hollow promise, and as such, Christianity has no better answer for sin than Judaism does. In fact, Christianity’s answer is far worse, because sinful people think they are sinless in the eyes of God! In Judaism, we strive and reach for righteousness one decision at a time. But nowhere does Torah/Judaism say or imply that a human being must be COMPLETELY PERFECT to avoid an everlasting burning hell, as does Christianity several times in the New Testament. Nor does Torah say or imply that all men are completely useless, incorrigibly evil, pieces of trash BY NATURE, NOT BY CHOICE as the NT implies.

The bottom line is that Judaism is a religion of salvation by grace and forgiveness. Christianity is a religion of the promise of salvation by human blood sacrifice and by total practical, actual sinlessness ( here and now) by the holy spirit. The first feature is an abomination forbidden by God, the latter feature has been historically proven false in every known case.

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464 Responses to Differences – a letter from Eleazar

  1. Paul Summers says:

    Hello
    Paul or the NT doesn’t say one never sins again once they believe in Yeshua, he says one is never condemned for sin, ie the sinful nature. The sin nature remains, that’s his point of Romans CH 7.
    We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. ( paraphrase).

    One will only become sinless at the resurrection.

    • Eleazar says:

      Hebrews 10 disagrees with you. And you are taking Paul out of context. In Romans chapters 5-7 he is speaking of the contradictions the unconverted face when walking after the flesh. Chapter 8 is the culmination and the conclusion to 5-7. 8:1 is clear that condemnation does not come to those who walk after the spirit because the spirit cannot sin. Please read Romans 8 and Hebrews in connection with each other.

      Hebrews is an apologetic on the supremacy of the one time sacrifice of Jesus. The reason given for its supremacy is that the animal sacrifices of Judaism had to be repeated because the people did not stop sinning:

      Hebrew 10:1-4 “The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sins…”

      1- the author calling God a liar, since it was God who ordained a very complex system of both animal and vegetable sacrifices specific to many different situations.
      OR
      2-is saying blood NEVER did anything, in which case he is double-speaking because the author is already building his case on the text “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”. Hebrews 9:22 ( quoting Tanakh out of context)
      OR
      3- Is saying that the blood of animals functioned as an atoning offering but could not stop people from sinning and thus requiring a new sacrifice over and over again. While the blood of Jesus, a one-time for all time offering, changes the nature of the sinner to a being who no longer needs blood sacrifices.

      The answer is #3. We know this because the author says blood of bulls “cannot take away sin”. But since the text has already affirmed that forgiveness is by blood, he can ONLY be referring to removing the sinful nature! To the point where Hebrews10:26-27 gives a grave warning concerning those who still sin after becoming Christians:

      “If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume all adversaries.…”

      Now, you tell me that the sin-nature will be there until the resurrection. If that is true, then how can God give such a warning knowing we will continue to make wrong choices. Also note that it says “NO FURTHER SACRIFICE REMAINS”.

      • KAVI says:

        Eleazar,
        If I understand correctly, you authored “The Trinity Chronicles” which begins with an interesting story about Isaac Cline and his disastrous decisions concerning the Galveston hurricane in the year 1900.

        Isaac Cline evidently came to an incorrect conclusion because he based his actions on his own opinions and emotions rather than facts consistent with the evidence.

        Likewise, I see some similarities when reading phrases like “sin nature”, and “walking in the Spirit”, and “pieces of trash”, etc– all of which can be interpreted in various ways based on prior bad experience, weak doctrinal foundation, or inconsistent theology renderings between the Tanakh and BC/NT…
        _______________________________

        Your essay is important because some of the concepts you describe represent a Gentile worldview rather than one of a first century Jewish author [hence, the many poor or false interpretations of the Book of Hebrews]…

        We may disagree upon matters of interpretation– but that would be no different than disagreement among Orthodox Rabbis when interpreting Tanakh.
        _______________________________

        So, at this time I would like to pose one question…

        Q: Should you rely “solely” upon the outdated KJV rendering of Romans 8:1 when the other major, modern versions [based on the oldest and best Greek texts] leave off the last phrase and read simply, “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”?
        ________________________________

        • Eleazar says:

          KAVI, I see you’ve resorted to the tactic of suggesting an emotional motivation over a discussing and refuting the substance of the argument. As such I will ignore your amateur psychological evaluation of my motivation from here on and respond to your substance only.

          Regardless of which version of Romans 8:1 one uses it does not change the doctrine. Regardless, Romans 8:1 KJV is not about the translation, but about the source document. Every version based on the Received Text will render Romans 8:1 in a similar way. We need not change the subject to manuscripts because it changes nothing. Regardless, I do not and have never made a conclusion based on a single sentence.

          Hebrews 10 is of monumental importance to an understanding of the Christian faith, since it was written to answer the questions, “How does the blood of Jesus and belief in him save anyone?” and “Why didn’t the blood of bulls and goats provide salvation?” Christianity is based on the idea that “believing in Jesus saves you” and “Jesus died to take away our sins”. Hebrews is the explanation of how. Therefore, if the how is proven wrong, then the premise of belief in, and “acceptance of” Jesus as one’s only method of salvation is useless.

          Now, you asked me a question regarding holiness and fitness for standing before God. Hebrews 10 answered it.

          • PAUL SUMMERS says:

            Hello
            Just to add something on one of your comments, you stated that the purpose of the book of Hebrews was written to show how does the blood of Jesus and belief in Him save anyone. Of course the book does show this, however, technically and historically the book was written for practicing believers in Jesus. They had already, by faith, made the decision. The book was written as a encouraging reminder. The then new Jewish believers were experiencing great persecution from there own nation, and some were being pushed into going back into practising animal sacrificing as a means of fellowship etc. Chs 2, 3, 4 and 6 open with words only akin to believers.

            Just thought That needed clarity.

    • “The sin nature remains, ”

      WHAT WAS THE POINT IN violently executing “innocent ” god if GOD BUILT THE SIN NATURE? i didn’t make my “sin nature”
      neither did sin make my “sin nature”

  2. PAUL SUMMERS says:

    Hebrews 10 disagrees with you. And you are taking Paul out of context. In Romans chapters 5-7 he is speaking of the contradictions the unconverted face when walking after the flesh. Chapter 8 is the culmination and the conclusion to 5-7. 8:1 is clear that condemnation does not come to those who walk after the spirit because the spirit cannot sin. Please read Romans 8 and Hebrews in connection with each other

    Hello, Due to time restraints I can only answer your quotes in bite size, so I will try and do this piece by piece.
    Im trying to understand your view here on Pauls letters, and your overall view on the NTs teaching on sin, grace, and forgiveness.
    Firstly ch 5 speaks of Gods grace through His Son, it speaks that faith in The Son has justified us to God. It teaches that while we were separated from God by unbelief, Gods grace was poured out to all through His Son. It teaches that through Adams sin, death spread to all men, but through Christ all who believe by faith through Gods grace, the penalty of sin which is death (spiritual and ultimately physical )will one day escape punishment and have eternal life in heaven. At the end of the chapter Paul explains two of the reasons why God gave the Law of Moses.

    Im not sure what you mean by contradictions in the unconverted?? There is of course differences in the believer and the not, but Paul is writing to the Church, not unbelievers.

    I will try and post ch 6.

    Thanks.

    • Brother Paul, it seems to me that Christians have added “salvation by faith doctrine” into the text of Romans 5:12-21. Apostle Paul simply says God’ s grace came through the one righteous act of Yeshua (which means i think his perfect obedience and faith toward his father HaShem). Throughout the Original Greek texts reveal that It is the faith OF Yeshua, not our faith IN Yeshua, which extingushed the wrath of God; thus God has already forgiven the sins of His covenant people even when they broke the covenant!

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hello
        Yes you are right to say it is Gods grace that is given, and the wrath for sin was by means of Jesus death, Him, Christ receiving the penalty through His obedience to the Father.
        However one has to believe in the act to receive the benefits. The individual has to apply faith so the resulted acts of Christ can have a direct result on the ones soul.
        God did His part, but man has to exercise his faith.
        Thanks.

        • I think the requirement of believing in the act of Christ applies only for Gentiles. That is why Galatians 3:8 mentions only Gentiles! The Jews are already in the eternal covenant; but they received the benefit not because of their faith in Yeshua but because of faith OF Yeshua as a representative of Jews and as righteous one of the household of Israel.

          • Alan says:

            GGJ,

            Are you saying that if not for Yeshua, Hashem would have broken his covenant with the Jewish people even though Hashem said in Tanakh hundreds of years before Yeshua was born that He would never break His covenant with them?

          • I don’t think HaShem would have broken His promise. However the glory of Hashem might have been blurred. what would gentiles say to Hashem? He once made the Sinai Covenant in which the penalty is death if failing to observe the Torah and later declare the new covenant in Jeremiah 31? How can the eternal covenant reconcile with the judgement upon the covenant people?

            How can Hashem restore the eternal fate of those Israelites who were judged because of their disobedience in the wilderness?

          • Alan says:

            The penalty for not keeping the Torah is death? Only for a small number of laws, only if there are witnesses who give the person proper warning, only if the person ignores the warning, only when there is a fully functioning sanhedrin, and only if the times are relatively normal when capital crimes are rare. You have been told a lie that the penalty for not keeping the Torah is death. The Tanakh says over and over again the essential and required remedy for sin is teshuva – not sacrifices, not blood.

  3. PAUL SUMMERS says:

    Hello
    Ch 6
    The overall teaching of this chapter is to remind the believer that now they are not obligated to follow the sinfulness passions which they once walked, according to the flesh.
    They should walk circumspectly with the power of the Holy spirit. Because Christ died believers should align themselves with His death and walk in the newness of there spiritual new life, just as Christ was physically resurrected into a new life.
    When Paul is teaching about sin reigning in our bodies he isnt talking about the sin nature which is corrupted flesh or our DNA, gynetics, he is talking about wilful habitual sin which should be controlled by faithful obedience. If the overall sin nature was completely removed from the believers DNA as it were, all belivers should live for ever, and never die. The Bible doesnt teach such. The NT believer still has the sin nature of dying, Genesis ch ch 3 v19, but has the spiritual re birth John 3 16. That spiritual death came about in Gen ch 2 v 17.

  4. Eleazar says:

    “When Paul is teaching about sin reigning in our bodies he isnt talking about the sin nature which is corrupted flesh or our DNA, gynetics, he is talking about wilful habitual sin which should be controlled by faithful obedience.”

    So you are saying corrupted flesh has no connection to habitual sin? What then is the source of this habitual sin if not the corrupted nature of the flesh ( as defined by Paul). Paul speaks of “crucifying the flesh” in order to gain the victory over sin. One cannot walk in the spirit if one has not “crucified the flesh” and “become a new creation”. Besides, you need to put this in the context of the whole, including the promise of perfection found in Hebrews and in 1 John:

    1John3:5-7 “But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning ( Present tense). No one who continues to sin ( present tense) has seen Him or known Him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.…”

    “JUST AS CHRIST IS RIGHTEOUS”
    “JUST AS” In the same way! Just as righteous! Christians claim Jesus was as righteous as God. (even though Jesus was clearly not perfect if you accept the words of the NT).

    Hebrews 10:1-4 “The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sins…”

    Please read verse 2 over and over again until it sinks in what is actually being said here:
    “If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?…”

    “If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?”

    “If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?”

    The truth of the matter is, the gospel that is presented in the promise of tangible total sanctification here and now, is the great promise of Christianity. That IS THE GOSPEL! Now, I know your arguments and have heard them many many times. But they are Christianity’s response to its own historically proven unfulfilled promise. It is NOT what the New Testament teaches!

    You want to convince me that like every other prophecy left unfulfilled by Jesus, that this too is kicked down the road to the 2nd coming and the resurrection! These texts say NO SUCH THING! This full sanctification was Christianity’s major apologetic argument when Hebrews was written. It was what Christianity could promise that Judaism could not, according to the text. It was the reason Jesus even came according to the NT… to put an end to sin by humanity entering into a New Covenant with a better promise. That better promise is the ability to stop sinning COMPLETELY, not just a little less, in THIS LIFE.

  5. Dina says:

    Following.

  6. PAUL SUMMERS says:

    So you are saying corrupted flesh has no connection to habitual sin? What then is the source of this habitual sin if not the corrupted nature of the flesh ( as defined by Paul). Paul speaks of “crucifying the flesh” in order to gain the victory over sin. One cannot walk in the spirit if one has not “crucified the flesh” and “become a new creation”. Besides, you need to put this in the context of the whole, including the promise of perfection found in Hebrews and in 1 John:

    Hello

    No Im not saying they are NOT connected, The NT is saying by nature we are born sinners because of Adams sin. His sin has been imputed into man. So we now are aligned with adams fall. All are born sinners, live as sinners, and die as sinners. The new birth does not instantly change the corrupted mortal flesh there and then, ie visibly. However the removal of immortality and incorruption does, is guaranteed by the Death and resurrection of Christ when a believer dies, or when the rapture occurs.
    The text of John that you quoted isnt talking about the sin nature generally , he is referring to wilful, disobedient sin that is keeping the beliver from fellowship with God. Paul says “why are you still/ now doing the things which you were THEN NOT ashamed but now still practicing.
    When the NT believer comes to Christ the future of there soul is heaven, there walk with God, Christ here on earth will go through 3 stages.
    1. Justification. There faith has been justified through belief in the completion of the crucified Messiah and resurrection.
    2. Sanctification. The on going process of being Christ like. ((( Our topic)))) No man can be ever, ever, ever like Christ in our present fallen condition.
    3. Glorification. At the point of our resurrection and subsequently the Judgement all believers will finally become complete, as Christ.

    John does teach that we are still sinners, 1 John ch 1 v18. Again this verse doesnt teach that we need to confess our daily sins to be eschatology forgiven, but forgiven in the one to one fellowship sense. Something that the RC church woefully got wrong.

    Comparing Hebrew 10 v 2 with this topic is simple. The text isnt saying believers are instantly sinless, the text is simply saying that the animal sacrifices only atoned on a temporary basis, they covered the sin. They were a down payment in preparation for a better sacrifice. OT saints never went to heaven when they died, they went to Abrahams bosom. Their faith was justified by the animals blood but it wasnt a completed works until the blood of Christ was shed.
    The OT sinner and the NT sinner are not different in the sense of general genetic sin, the difference is the change from daily, weekly, sabbatical and yearly sacrifices to the one off sacrifice which has completed the works of God by the blood through the crucified Yeshua.

    Sorry have to go.

    • Eleazar says:

      “1. Justification. There faith has been justified through belief in the completion of the crucified Messiah and resurrection.”

      Response: How? Why?

      “2. Sanctification. The on going process of being Christ like. ((( Our topic)))) No man can be ever, ever, ever like Christ in our present fallen condition.”

      Response: Ongoing process? So you believe in evolution? You are not “a new creature in Christ” but “an evolving creature in Christ that can never reach full evolution”? The holy spirit able to make you “some” better and “sort-of” able to conquer the flesh, but not completely? If it is not possible to ever, ever, ever be like Christ, and we MUST continue to sin due to fallen nature, then what is the point? We can do that without Christianity. If fallen nature is responsible for sin, as you say it is, then what does Jesus offer to solve this that God could not offer without Jesus?

      You see, it makes sense if we are on our own , working toward righteousness, to say there will always be a struggle between the two natures ( Yetser Harah and Yetser Tov) and they are always at odds.
      But if you are saying that because of Jesus’ death, God is in you “doing the works” there is no excuse to continue sinning or you are saying God is only semi-effective in changing the person and will always be no more than semi-potent until man’s human nature is taken away. This is accusing God of unjustly giving a law that man could NEVER keep or obey in his humanity, and then damning him to eternal flames for not keeping it. Also, if Jesus was “the second Adam” and walked over Adam’s steps, but emerged victorious, it is also cheating because Jesus had something Adam didn’t have, deity.

      3. Glorification. At the point of our resurrection and subsequently the Judgement all believers will finally become complete, as Christ.

      Response- Again, why can’t God do this without Jesus? Why does belief have any bearing on the solution to sin being the granting of a new sinless nature that was not available prior to death or “secret rapture”? If God decided to grant this to Hitler, then Hitler would be perfect, Jesus or not, because our sin is the result of our nature. As you and Christianity say, “We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.” Jesus either changed this or he didn’t. Christianity either solves this or it doesn’t. Hebrews is either right or it is not. Jesus’ blood either “took away sin” or it didn’t. You are saying that this is yet another promise left unkept until the 2nd coming.

      Convenient.

      Reprinting until you “get it”:
      Hebrews 10:1-4 “The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?

      “If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?…”

      “If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?”

      “If it could, would not the offerings have ceased?”

      10:11 “Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT ( past tense) forever those who are being made (PRESENT TENSE) holy.
      10:26
      “For if a man shall sin by his will after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no sacrifice to be offered afterward for sins” Aramaic Bible in Plain English

      Don’t like that version? here’s a few more:

      “For if a man sin, voluntarily, after he hath received a knowledge of the truth, there is no longer a sacrifice which may be offered for sins” Peshitta

      “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” KJV

      “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” Young’s Literal

      “For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins” Jubilee Bible

      “For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins” Douay-Rheims Bible

      Get it yet?

      • KAVI says:

        Eleazar,
        Hebrews 10:26
        “For if a man shall sin by his will after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no sacrifice to be offered afterward for sins” [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]

        Absolutely! There is no Temple sacrifice that can be made for sins after one receives L-RD Yeshua as their redeeming Savior.

        Why does this pose a problem?
        _____________________

        • Eleazar says:

          The problem, Kavi, is that it is speaking in the context of Jesus’ sacrifice, not the temple sacrifices. IN the temple sacrifices (which cannot “make you perfect”,) a person could sin and then another sacrifice could be made ( if he were repentant). Hebrews was written while the temple still stood and sacrifices were being made!
          Read carefully:

          Hebrews 10:1-2- “The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. IF IT COULD, would not the offerings have ceased?”

          Please continue reading:

          “Day after day every [ Jewish] priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest ( JESUS) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by ONE sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT forever those who are being made holy.

          Now continue reading the conclusion, which is directly tied to the above statement:

          “For if a man shall sin by his will after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no sacrifice to be offered afterward for sins ( Because Jesus cannot be sacrificed AGAIN) But that terrible judgment is ready and the zeal of fire which consumes the enemies. For if any violated the law of Moses, he would die without mercy by the mouth of two or three witnesses. How much more do you think he will receive capital punishment, he who has trampled upon The Son of God and esteemed the blood of his covenant to be like that of every person, who also was made holy by it, and he has despised The Spirit of grace?

          Jesus cannot be “crucified afresh”. That is the point he is making. If Jesus’ sacrifice and indwelling spirit does not stop you from sinning intentionally, you’re out of luck because Jesus cannot be sacrificed a second time. His human sacrifice (God forbid) was a ONE TIME FOR ALL TIME sacrifice!THAT is what is being said here, if you read the context!

          • KAVI says:

            Eleazar,
            The Book of Hebrews was contextually written to an audience of Jews who formerly sought forgiveness and righteousness through offerings and sacrifices at the Temple….as such, there is no reason to eisegetically read Yeshua into Hebrews 10:26

            However, Gentiles often commit such mistakes because they are steeped into a culture foreign to the mind of a 1st century Jew accustomed to the Temple sacrificial system.

            To be honest, it’s a shame that the Book of Hebrews is so terribly misinterpreted due to the absence of Messianic Jewish understanding…

            Not that I blame you personally– I just feel you been tripped-up by bad church doctrine.
            __________________________

            The conclusion of Hebrews 10:1-14 is Verse 18 [not a leap to verse 26]
            “Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.”
            __________________________

            You do see the classic Hebrew parallelism between these two verses, right?

            “…. there is no longer any offering for sin.” [v18]
            and
            “…. there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.” [v26]

            Both of these verses show a comparison:
            [a] First, each looks to the redemption offered through L-RD Yeshua [which leads to life and righteousness] and
            [b] Second, each THEN looks back to the Temple sacrificial system [which leads to death and judgment]…
            ___________________________

          • KAVI says:

            Eleazar,
            The Book of Hebrews was contextually written to an audience of Jews who formerly sought forgiveness and righteousness through offerings and sacrifices at the Temple….as such, there is no reason to eisegetically read Yeshua into the second half of Hebrews 10:26 as you have done…

            However, Gentiles often commit such mistakes because they are steeped into a culture foreign to the mind of a 1st century Jew accustomed to the Temple sacrificial system.

            To be honest, it’s a shame that the Book of Hebrews is so terribly misinterpreted due to the absence of Messianic Jewish understanding…

            Not that I blame you personally– I just feel you been tripped-up by bad church doctrine.
            __________________________

            The conclusion of Hebrews 10:1-14 is Verse 18 [not a leap to verse 26]
            “Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.”
            __________________________

            You do see the classic Hebrew parallelism between these two verses, right?

            “…. there is no longer any offering for sin.” [v18]
            and
            “…. there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.” [v26]

            Both of these verses show a comparison:
            [a] First, each looks to the redemption offered through L-RD Yeshua [which leads to life and righteousness] and
            [b] Second, each THEN looks back to the Temple sacrificial system [which leads to death and judgment]…
            ___________________________

  7. Eleazar says:

    “The Book of Hebrews was contextually written to an audience of Jews who formerly sought forgiveness and righteousness through offerings and sacrifices at the Temple….as such, there is no reason to eisegetically read Yeshua into Hebrews 10:26”

    Eisegetically? Read the text! All the temple sacrifices are spoken of in the present text. This was written while the temple still stood. How can you miss that?

    You are doing semantic backflips to twist the plain meaning of these texts!

    Also, your subtle ad hominem ( paraphrase- you’re just a Gentile, how could you understand?) does not change the plain meaning of the text. That is why you are reduced to taking parts of sentences rather than reading the entire paragraph or entire chapter.

    But explain something to me. You wrote:

    “First, each looks to the redemption offered through L-RD Yeshua [which leads to life and righteousness] ”

    How does this work? How does belief in Yeshua bring life, righteousness or redemption? Especially, how does belief in Yeshua bring righteousness? Is this a real tangible righteousness or an imagined one? How righteous is this righteousness? A little? A lot? Complete? What does this righteousness look like?

    I am sure Paul Summers would also be interested in your answer, since his original questions to me were ( paraphrase) “How righteous does one need to be to stand before God” and “How do you attain to that level of righteousness?”.

    • Paul Summers says:

      Hello
      I will try and respond asap to other statements.

      You are correct that the then temple offering’s were still in place. Hebrews was written pre temple destruction. Of course non Christian Jews were using and believing in the system. As stated earlier the newly converted Jews were thinking or even were actually going back to the old system. Hebrews is telling them not to, because its pointless, and more importantly they needed to stay away from Jerusalem because unknown to them the Roman onslaught and destruction of the Temple was still future.

    • KAVI says:

      Eleazar,
      It appears you did not read my second post clarification,
      “The Book of Hebrews was contextually written to an audience of Jews who formerly sought forgiveness and righteousness through offerings and sacrifices at the Temple….as such, there is no reason to eisegetically read Yeshua into the second half of Hebrews 10:26 as you have done…

      The misinterpretation of the Book of Hebrews [and particularly 10:26] is caused by an unsupportable Gentile viewpoint foreign to the mindset of 1st century Jews– despite contrary evidence.

      Remember Isaac Cline’s interpretative errors concerning the Galveston hurricane [which he thought was only a “normal” storm]?
      ___________________________

      Although you disagreed with the evidence in my prior post, you could not disprove those words–

      And actually, I only provided part of the ample evidence that the word “sacrifice” in Hebrews 10:26 refers to the “Temple sacrifice”.

      So, here is more…

      [a] Q: Is your interpretation logical?
      According to your own words, “Hebrews is an apologetic on the supremacy of the one time sacrifice of Jesus.”

      As such, can you truthfully argue that Hebrews 10:26 is now going to make a case against the supremacy of the one time sacrifice of Yeshua?

      [b] Q: What is the summary statement of Hebrews Chapter 10?
      “But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.” [Hebrews 10:39]

      Here, we find the writers of Hebrews:
      ** continue the same comparison between L-RD Yeshua VS the Law’s Temple sacrificial system [as in verses 18 and 26 and elsewhere] AND,
      ** indicate faith in Redeemer L-RD Yeshua is an eternal, secure redemption VS the Temple sacrificial system which only brings wrath and judgment…
      __________________________

      As to the last point regarding eternal redemption, Tanakh teaches,
      “How blessed is the man to whom the L-RD does not impute iniquity,
      and in whose spirit there is no deceit!” [Psalm 32:2]

      … Hebrews 10 teaches the same [when correctly interpreted]…
      __________________________

  8. Eleazar says:

    ““Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

    Absolutely! Hebrews is clear of two things concerning Jesus’ death:

    1- One time for all time meant sacrifice was no longer needed because it was a complete atonement. That is the intent of the text you posted.

    2- One time for all time there is no longer a sacrifice AVAILABLE any more, either. That is the meaning of v 26. And as you will see, 6:4-6.

    Now, your insistence that “one time for all time” ONLY means “sacrifices no longer needed ” does not stand in context of several verses, including Hebrews 6:4-6

    “But those who have descended once to baptism and tasted the gift from Heaven and received The Spirit of Holiness, And tasted the good word of God and the power of the future world, Who would sin again, and AGAIN crucify The Son of God, and become contemptible, cannot be renewed to conversion.”

    This text says that those Christians who sin again, who backslide, cannot return. Why can’t they return? Because it would require another sacrifice! It is clear in this text that Jesus’ one time sacrifice is meant in the context of “no sacrifice available”, not “no sacrifice needed”. Moreover, the believer in this case is sinning AFTER receiving the holy spirit! Put this in context of what the author says the reason why temple sacrifices are inferior:

    Hebrews 10:1-2- “It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. IF IT COULD, would not the offerings have ceased?”

    But speaking Jesus’ sacrifice it says:

    “For by ONE sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT forever those who are being made holy.”

    So according to this text in Hebrews, we have TWO sacrifices:

    1- Animals ( and flour/oil) that needed to be continued due to the fact that the people were continuing to sin, and thus a need for sacrifices every year. If they could make people perfect, then do they continue?

    2- Jesus’ blood- a sacrifice that only needed to be done once because it made people perfect and sacrifice was thus no longer needed because it had the power, by the holy spirit, make believers stop sinning.

    The perfection of character and the solving of sin is the issue in view. Plain as day. The gospel according to Hebrews and 1John is this: Judaism does not solve sin. Jesus death and Christianity do.
    But history shows clearly that Christianity has NOT solved sin. It is a theory that has been proven wrong.

    • Paul Summers says:

      “For by ONE sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT forever those who are being made holy.”

      Hi
      Yes the sacrifice of Christ removed the need of animal sacrifices.
      Yes Christ cannot be re crucified, this teaches eternal security, which is true, A better sacrifice. One cannot lose there redemption.
      As stated previously, believers retain the sin nature after the re birth. Christ’s Blood sanctified and redeemed sin. The penalty of sin was/is death. Plus the sinful condition that keeps man from God. This gap has been bridged through Christ by Gods Grace. This salvation is applied to an individual by faith. The fullness of a sinlessness person is acquired at the resurrection.
      The NT does not teach that a person becomes sinless here on earth. When sinless is mention the text refers to the ultimate goal which will come, future.

      The opening statement which I pasted States “Those being made perfect” Its in a future tense. That’s sanctification which I mentioned, not evolution as you stated.

      • Eleazar says:

        “Yes the sacrifice of Christ removed the need of animal sacrifices.
        Yes Christ cannot be re crucified, this teaches eternal security, which is true, A better sacrifice. One cannot lose there redemption.”

        Hebrews 10:26 plainly disagrees, as does Hebrews 6:4 and 1Corinthians 9:27

        “For if a man shall sin by his will after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no sacrifice to be offered afterward for sins ( Because Jesus cannot be sacrificed AGAIN) But that terrible judgment is ready and the zeal of fire which consumes the enemies. ”

        “But those who have descended once to baptism and tasted the gift from Heaven and received The Spirit of Holiness, And tasted the good word of God and the power of the future world, Who would sin again, and AGAIN crucify The Son of God, and become contemptible, cannot be renewed to conversion.”

        1Cor 9:27:”No, I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified..”

        “The opening statement which I pasted States “Those being made perfect” Its in a future tense.”

        Actually, it is present tense (Must we really argue over basic grammar?), and refers to people who are becoming Christians. As they are becoming Christians, they are being made holy, no longer needing a sacrifice because the difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Christianity “makes you perfect” and Judaism, by the same sacrifices year after year, does not. Please read some other versions of Hebrews 10:14-

        For by one offering he has perfected those who are sanctified by him for eternity. Aramaic BIble

        For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who ARE sanctified. NASB

        For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that ARE sanctified. Douay Reims

        For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that ARE sanctified. ERV

        for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified; Young’s Literal;

        For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who ARE made holy. NET

        In all of these versions, the sanctification is in the present/past tense.

        1Cor6:10- Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you WERE sanctified ( past tense), you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

        • Eleazar says:

          Try to understand that Hebrews is the only NT Book that makes the claim that Jesus is the literal fulfillment of the New Covenant as worded in Jeremiah 31.

          But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

          Hebrews 8:7-12 : “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

          “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
          when I will make a new covenant
          with the people of Israel
          and with the people of Judah.
          9 It will not be like the covenant
          I made with their ancestors
          when I took them by the hand
          to lead them out of Egypt,
          because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
          and I turned away from them,
          declares the Lord.
          10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
          after that time, declares the Lord.
          I will put my laws in their minds
          and write them on their hearts.
          I will be their God,
          and they will be my people.
          11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
          or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
          because they will all know me,
          from the least of them to the greatest.
          12 For I will forgive their wickedness
          and will remember their sins no more.”

          Here, Hebrews is claiming Jesus/Christianity is the literal fulfillment of this text! I ask anyone to read this through, especially verses 10 and 11, and tell me this has occurred and has been fulfilled. Remember that Hebrews chapter 10 is in context of this foundational doctrine.

  9. Alan says:

    Paul,

    “As stated previously, believers retain the sin nature after the re birth. Christ’s Blood sanctified and redeemed sin. ”

    Isn’t it a contradiction to claim that Christ’s blood redeemed sin (past tense) but at the same time sin still exists? How can sin be redeemed and unredeemed at the same time?

  10. PAUL SUMMERS says:

    Hi Alan
    It seems a contradiction by many because when they see the word redeemed they automatically assume that the person in question becomes sinless there and then. Sinlessness in our present body, or tent as Paul calls it, is still ever present. We see this result by God telling Adam in Gen ch 3 v 19. Even faithful OT saints were still under a death sentance.
    Death/sin has now entered into the human experience. That death is the penalty caused by sin. Our human flesh is now contaminated with sin/death, everyone dies, everyone is a sinner.

    When Followers of Jesus talk about sin, its not simply about being good or bad or indifferent. Its reffering to the death which all humans experience which needed to be reversed.

    The believer is baptised by the Holy Spirit at the instance one believes. The Holy Spirit indwells in all believers. 1 Corintians ch 12 v12, However the Holy Spirit sits alongside the old sinful nature of the believer, and as Ephesians ch 6 v 10 – 21 teaches believers struggle because 2 natures war against each other. The old and the new.
    Most of Pauls letters are words of encouragement in difficulties, words of praise or some strict harsh words when required. This simply shows that believers are far from perfect or from harm in this world.

    So ultimately Chtists blood has redeemed mankind. Futuristic the believer is saved from eternal punishment, presently he/she is aligned with Christs death, burial and resurrection, but while they are still breathing here on earth they are being sanctified, waiting for the blessed hope of the resurrection.

    • Alan says:

      Let me try to say it back and please let me know if I am following you:

      What you mean by “Christ’s blood has sancified and redeemed sin” is as follows-
      The sanctification of the believer is due to the Holy Spirit that dwells in the believer’s body, and sinning is no longer an impediment to being holy (like G-d). The redemption of sin means the believer will not be tortured for eternity after death for whatever sins he did while he was living with the Holy Spirit in him.

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi Alan
        The NT doesn’t teach that we should continue in the things which we know are wrong. It teaches quite the opposite. The point at salvation is the Holy Spirit regenerates the dead human spirit, the soul/ spirit which is alienated from God. This is of the spiritual realm not the physical. John CH 3.
        Physically the flesh is still corrupted.

        We cannot save ourselves. God did all the works of salvation through Jesus. We can never make ourselves holy in the sense of complete God like holiness, but we should separate ourselves from following fleshly ways etc. Again sanctification is a process following the exercised faith in the completed works of the death, burial and resurrection.
        And finally all past, present and future sins are completely and utterly blotted out from the presence of God in any believer in Christ Jesus God and King.

        That is Grace. Not earned, or worked for, but a free gift offered to all who believes in the Only Begotten Son Of The Father.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Just to add, If a believer, say in a church environment falls into a wilful sin, say adultery, and he/she fails to repent and refuses council from the elders, then that person, scripturally, should be disciplined accordingly. Then that unrepentant person breaks fellowship with God. That person is disciplined by God, but the soul still belongs to God, as it was purchased with the Blood of Christ.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            You wrote: “Again sanctification is a process following the exercised faith in the completed works of the death, burial and resurrection.”

            “Exercised faith” – what is the difference in sanctification after the believer passes on from this earth between the believer who “exercised” faith and the believer who didn’t exercise faith? I’m assuming that by exercised faith you mean practicing the ways of God on earth and not just believing. And I’m assuming that by sanctification you mean the Holy Spirit dwelling with a person both on earth and after one leaves this earth. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan
            Exercised faith is walking through this life, learning, prayers, works, relying on God not materialism, just generally walking, and maturing in the Faith. Exercising spiritual gifts.
            Going through life’s tribulations and suffering in Christ’s Name will sanctify a believer. He or she will make many mistakes on route but the process will ultimately mature and sanctify the believer.
            All believers grow and mature at different levels. Matthew 13. The NT teaches that there are crowns of rewards waiting for the believer in Heaven. Depending on how much one grows here in obedience is revealed by position in the Messianic Kingdom, here on earth.
            That’s the future kingdom after Christ’s return.
            However salvation isn’t balanced on how much we do here and now, only rewards. Salvation is based on the regeneration of the believer once they are saved. Something that cannot, cannot, cannot be lost.

          • Alan says:

            Good morning Paul,
            I’m following what you’re saying. So if a believer decides that: 1). they don’t care about rewards in the next world and 2). they don’t care about doing good on earth, they just want to pursue materialism even if it means hurting people – is such a believer good, holy and beloved in the next world?

        • I didn’t understand anything you said . At one hand you think that all your past, present and future sinful thoughts and deeds have been washed in the bloody violent killing of your god, on the other you still need to fight evil thoughts and evil deeds because there aren’t any divine consequences? a christian hiding under jesus is guaranteed to sin in the future and at the same time tells himself that there are no divine consequences because all his evil sin has been washed in the blood of god. You also have a NATURE which helps you do sin.

          • the christian remain in his corrupt and polluted state, but god is cool with that because he violently killed himself. TILL this day I don’t see the connection. I don’t get it.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            That’s a great question.
            The NT only teaches on what is given not what isn’t.
            Positionally all believers are in the kingdom, some just have greater rewards which comes with more blessings.
            I think the best way to look at your question is actually to ask, why wouldn’t you want to grow, once you see ones salvation?

            The NT teaches about fruits as a visible sign of believers, not there works. Fruits are growth in spiritual matters etc.
            Its like falling on love with some one, or loving your children. You don’t need to be told to say “I love you” its natural and you want to say it because you do love the person.

            If one follows material things of this world and hurts people, its not the actually harm that person is doing that effects there rewards, it more of a case of what type of relationship they have with Christ presently that should be of concern. They should!!?? be more discernible with there new current spiritual condition instead of pursuing wealth and hurting people intentionally.
            The NT does teach that tares grow with the wheat in the same field, ie confessing Christians who are not.
            If you need biblical texts to substantiate my quotes just ask. I’m working at the mo, so no time to find the chapters and verses.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I agree that believers should be growth-oriented. But I think you’re saying that in the final reckoning, even if someone did not believe their whole life but becomes a believer only at the very last moment, they partake of eternal holiness and life in the next world (albeit on a lower level than those who tried harder in their earthly life). But what if such a person was not only a non-believer until the last moment but also did much evil on earth, e.g. murder, stealing and sexual sins – what would such a person need to do or believe in the last moment in order to merit eternal holiness and life?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan

            Some great questions here.

            Firstly you have to see that individual sins past, pay no regard to ones future role in the kingdom. The sins individually are the actions of a unregenerate person. The overall generically sinful nature of man are the primary goal for the crucifixion. As the sinful nature has been purchased by Christ, so has individual past actions. They are blotted out.
            In regard to a person being saved at the last moment in their life, here are a few pointers;
            1. Because there is no sin within a believer in the Messianic kingdom, there cannot be any animosity because, envy, jealously, greed are all actions of sin, and resurrected believers have lost there sin nature.

            2. Nothing can compare to the joy of salvation. Any Position in the Kingdom would out do the very sad alternative.
            3. As far as God is concerned sin is sin. It is not measured by ones individuality. Even Paul/Saul was the earliest church’s enemy. By Gods grace even with Paul’s history, Paul was saved and then counter used to spread the Gospel news.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello again Alan

            Sorry I didn’t actually answer your last and most important question.

            Christ Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for mans sin. No matter who that person is. Jew, gentile, black, white, Asian, rich poor, slave, free, man woman.
            Or man needs to do is to believe by faith that through Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, one has been redeemed, purchased and totally forgiven for all sins and their sinful nature.
            He took it on Himself to save you and me. Its a free gift that costs us nothing but cost God everything.

          • Alan says:

            Hi Paul,
            So if an incredibly wicked monster like Pol Pot, for example, at the last moment of his life accepted upon himself the sacrifice of Christ Jesus for all his sins, he would be a holy member of the community in the world to come?

    • Eleazar says:

      The bottom line, Paul, is that you are putting off to the 2nd coming what Hebrews claims has happened in the past, and should happen in the present, in the Christian experience. You MUST do this because you know as well as I do that Christianity does not produce, in tangible reality, a sinless person or a person who has gained the victory over sin as promised in Hebrews.

      Christianity has had to resort to the formula of “Unprovable Invisible justification is complete and experienced by the Christian, but complete , tangible and literal sanctification is a process that can never be achieved by a mortal human being, even one filled with the holy spirit”

      Its back to the basic Christian apologetic argument that, “ANYTHING provable and visible will be accomplished by Jesus in the future. Meanwhile, EVERYTHING unprovable and invisible has been fully accomplished”

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi
        Hebrews doesn’t teach what you say. It aligns Christ blood with animal sacrifices as a mode, but teaches that it is superior in the remission of sins.
        You keep stating that Christians are supposedly sinless, I keep telling you the NT teaches otherwise. Believers do ultimately have victory through the resurrection. You keep stating, again!! That Holy Spirit filled believers don’t reach perfect sanctification, and by you that’s proof of a non actual process. But the NT does teach that you cannot reach perfection here on earth. Its not a contradiction, its actually written and seen by believer’s. You just mid read Hebrews.

        • Eleazar says:

          “You just mid read Hebrews.”

          No sir, it says exactly what it says. The reason animal sacrifices were inferior is because they did not make people perfect. Because it did not make them perfect, they had to have sacrifices continually because they continued to sin. It says that in plain black and white.
          It is you ( and the church) who cannot handle the reality of the gospel, Paul. Plain and simple. Christianity has always struggled with the insurmountable problem of:

          1- Presenting Jesus and the indwelling holy spirit being the answer to solving sin…

          and

          2- The Christian inability to stop sinning no matter how “spirit-filled” he becomes.

          EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING!

          Take John for example, Paul. In both his gospel and his short epistles, he presents Jesus and the indwelling spirit as the answer to sin, proclaiming that anyone who sins is not a Christian!

          PLEASE READ VERSE 6! You say this is not possible and the the New Testament does not teach this! ( emphasis mine)

          1John2:3 “We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him MUST LIVE JUST AS JESUS LIVED”.

          Continuing

          PLEASE READ THIS NEXT ENTIRE PASSAGE, ESPECIALLY VERSE 9! You say this is not possible and that the New Testament does NOT TEACH THIS! Now go back and read Hebrews! You will see that my reading is spot-on! ( emphasis mine)

          1John3:5-9 “And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whoever stays in him sins not: WHOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM, NEITHER KNOWN HIM. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God.”

          It is you, Paul ( and the church) who are denying the very gospel of Jesus and denying your own scriptures!

          • Alan says:

            I read the passages you brought. The average person reading this would very likely understand this to mean what you say it means – one who believes is no longer able to sin and one who sins is of Satan, neither has he seen or known Jesus (to know is to do the commandments according to these passages). However, the more mature Christian can’t understand it on the simple level because it contradicts reality. My educated guess is what they do is the following: as long as a Christian maintains a conscious awareness of Jesus he cannot sin because where there is light there is no darkness. But this consciousness takes effort and it is not automatic. As soon as one forgets Jesus, the darkness returns and one is now “of the satan”. But as soon as one catches oneself and reminds oneself of Jesus, the light dispels the darkness and one can at that moment not sin. There are Chassidic writngs that speak in similar language to the passages you quoted and they give a similar explanation to the one I just wrote. These kinds of mystical-sounding writings can be very confusing and are not to be understood literally. I think what these NT passages want to do is to simply say that Torah is no longer good enough and Jesus is the replacement for all the sacrifices and in order to have eternal life bound to God, one must believe in Jesus. The goal is the same – the world to come – but the NT wants to change the means because the old means is too difficult in many ways. There is still a fight with evil but the old way is too hard.

          • Alan says:

            But Hashem says in the Torah about observing the commandments, including the commandment to do teshuvah (return): “for the thing is very close to you – in your mouth and in your heart to do it.”

            We can all do it. Only a sadistic God would command something we couldn’t do and then punish and kill us for not doing it.

          • Alan says:

            Pardon me- that should have been a lower-case “g” in “sadistic god”.

          • KAVI says:

            Eleazar,
            Apostle John teaches the same as Psalm 32,

            “How blessed is the man to whom the L-RD does not impute iniquity,
            and in whose spirit there is no deceit!”

            ________________________________

        • LarryB says:

          Paul Summers
          Eleazar is, as usual, making really great points here. It would be helpful if you would back up your arguments with scripture like Eleazar does. It’s good to know your opinion, but it would also be nice to know what you base your opinion on. I’ll admit I haven’t read everything but a quick review shows you have a lot to say but little to back it up with.

          • Eleazar says:

            Larry,
            I fully concede that Paul can bring in TONS of NT texts which he can claim refer only to “imputed righteousness” ( justification) or can claim that all texts referring to “righteousness in christ” are referring only to imputed righteousness. No different than the Christian apologists who claim Isaiah 43:10-12 in Tanakh is a reference to Jesus. The problem for Paul ( or Kavi) is that he has nothing to refute the clear case for complete imparted righteousness as laid out plainly in the texts I have posted. And to try to refute those is to try to refute his own religion’s scriptures.

          • Alan says:

            Whatever the text says, I still don’t see that they are forced to interpret it literally to mean complete imparted righteousnes 24/7 for the rest of one’s life and that without this perfect practical righteousness one is not saved.

          • Alan says:

            There are chassidic texts that say that complete righteousness 24/7 365 is possible for everyone but then the chassidic commentators all interpret the text non-literally. I personally don’t like it which is one of the reasons I am not chassidic. I am referring to one prominent chassidic group but I will not name them here.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi, That’s fine and I agree. Time at the mo is my problem, I did previously explain this to Alan if he required texts.

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi Alan

        All of mankind has the ability to be saved. God wishes no man to perish.

        However a couple of Scriptural principles have to be followed.

        1. The gospel message has to be given. Romans CH 1 v 16~17
        2. The said individual cannot be a atheist, There must be a very basic foundation of Gods existence. Romans CH 1. 18~ 31.
        3. Gods sovereign reign does put into power who he wishes. Daniel CH 2 v 21 and CH 4 v 35.
        The point of no 3 is that some people are given over to satanic control to be used to see Gods prophetic plan through to the end. John 13 v 30.

  11. “He or she will make many mistakes on route but the process will ultimately mature and sanctify the believer.
    All believers grow and mature at different levels. Matthew 13.”

    the problem is that jesus thinks that lusting with eyes = adultery. he didn’t say that he will give up his eye on behalf of lusting eye, he said that christian needs to pluck out his eye.
    i think even jesus realized that violently killing a god doesn’t really help problem of sin.
    and why does christian need to mature in anything since his sin nature will infect his repentance and sincerity . remember that jesus died for insincere repentance. insincerity .
    blood sacrifices have helped christian get away with sins.

    • Paul Summers says:

      Hello Mr Heathcliffe

      The point Jesus is making about eyes and list are this,
      The law of Moses states that Adultery is committed when one physically commits the act. Jesus Is teaching the righteous requirements or the proper interpretation of the law.
      He is stating that adultery has already happened in the heart before the physical act because the individual had looked and longed for the adultery to take place. So its not the act per we but the want to, which led to the act.
      When He States “Pluck out your eyes” its not literal, but a term of reference to show how serious the problem is.
      Your other statements make no sense to me.

      • Paul Summers says:

        Lust, sorry.

      • But your beliefs are teaching that all past, present and future adulteries have already been atoned for in the sacrificial murder of god. Jesus told you how to cure a serious problem, he told you to pluck your eye out. in your beliefs, you have Jesus dying for past,present and future lustful thoughts, so you have taken out the “serious” in “serious problem”

        what I am saying is that you are lying to yourself if you think you as Christian can live holy life because the whole point of your god KILLING himself was because you CANT live holy life. your god allows you to get away with sins because he is always reminded of the bloody crucifixion ritual.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi
          Firstly The NT and I have never ever stated that one is holy in this life, please confirm where I stated otherwise.
          Jesus wasn’t murdered. Also He never killed Himself.
          Can you confirm where Jesus is reminded of His own death?
          As explained previously, Jesus was using a common practice of extreme analogy to make a point.
          That point was adultery starts in the heart of one.

          • “Extreme analogies” don’t undo lustful thoughts. Jesus gave you practical advice , he told you to cut your eye off, otherwise you might end up losing your rewards. The strange and funny thing is that you guys tell yourselves that the sinful thoughts, past , present and future have already BEEN CLEARED and wiped off from your wrongs. You are free.no more divine consequences, but then you are in a BIND, you still NEED to acknowledge the wrong and be responsible ,indicating you view remorse, repentance and acknowledgement GREATER than Jesus’ sacrifice/murder.

            jesus did kill himself, he said in john that he had power over his own life.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Mr Heathcliffe

            Answering your points in no order.
            When Jesus makes the point in John 10 v 18, He is making the point of His own power in the resurrection. Not sure if you know how crucifixion works, but nailing oneself to cross is a neat trick by any standards!
            Scripturally speaking God His Father was responsible for His Death. Isaiah CH 53 v 10.

            The point, again! is that Adultery begins in the heart when one constantly looks after another outside the marriage. The analogy, yes analogy’s are allowed, was simply teaching one to stop looking. Its not just a matter of a lustful thought, its more of building on that thought and pursuing it until it becomes a reality.

            You seem to think that being self disciplined and responsible for ones moral actions are stupid and irresponsible?

          • robster2016 says:

            your god says he KILLS himself

            “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

            even if the pagans NAILED your god, they did not KILL him according to john. jesus , according to john ,thought he switched himself off. so jesus took his own life. jesus KILLED himself.

            if jesus PUT an end to his life because the father gave jesus the power to do so, then jesus is responsible.

            “The point, again! is that Adultery begins in the heart when one constantly looks after another outside the marriage”

            and what helps your heart? THE eyes. what did jesus advice you ? Lose your eye.

            “The analogy, yes analogy’s are allowed, was simply teaching one to stop looking. Its not just a matter of a lustful thought, its more of building on that thought and pursuing it until it becomes a reality.”

            you don’t even need to build on it a SECOND time, jesus told you LOSE the eye. if that doesn’t work lose the second one too. your eyes help you in building on the thought. your god gave you advice to lose your eye.

            if your hands help you do sin, lose your hands too. this is advice from jesus.

  12. “I think the best way to look at your question is actually to ask, why wouldn’t you want to grow, once you see ones salvation?

    The NT teaches about fruits as a visible sign of believers, not there works. Fruits are growth in spiritual matters etc.
    Its like falling on love with some one, or loving your children. You don’t need to be told to say “I love you” its natural and you want to say it because you do love the person.”

    now it sounds like there is no original sin or cursed nature.

  13. Eleazar says:

    “My educated guess is what they do is the following: as long as a Christian maintains a conscious awareness of Jesus he cannot sin because where there is light there is no darkness. But this consciousness takes effort and it is not automatic. As soon as one forgets Jesus, the darkness returns and one is now “of the satan”.

    Alan,
    I understand, and that would be a decent compromise, except for one thing: John says that if one is in Jesus “He will live JUST as Jesus lived”. But being “in Jesus” is a condition of Christian salvation! If one can be “In Jesus, out of Jesus, In Jesus, out of Jesus”,etc., then one would be caught in an ever-revolving door of righteousness and sin, of salvation and damnation. Of needing a sacrifice and not needing one, needing one and not needing one, and on and on.

    That was the accusation against Judaism, since Christianity taught that one must be “perfectly righteous and holy” to be saved and that Judaism failed in this regard. THAT “perfect cleansing to stand before a perfectly holy God” was Paul’s first question to me that began this entire discussion! It was that question that spawned the post at the top of this page! This was the very situation Christianity promised to resolve! To solve the “saved/not saved” revolving door was the purpose of Jesus’ incarnation according to the books of 1John and Hebrews! According to Hebrews’ quoting of Jeremiah 31, the prophesied New Covenant is intended to solve that problem, is the “covenant based on better promises”, and Jesus was the ratifying sacrifice required for the covenant ( since all biblical covenants are ratified by blood).

    In the New Testament, there are two kinds of righteousness that come from faith in Jesus:

    1- Imputed righteousness- God *counts* you as perfectly righteous because of Jesus’ blood sacrifice, thus Jesus’ perfection is *imputed* to you. This is what Paul Summers keeps talking about, and claims that this is completed and fulfilled. This cannot be proven to exist and is taken entirely on faith.

    2- Imparted righteousness – The actual and real righteousness of Jesus is given to you in the form of the holy spirit sanctifying you and making you perfect in the practical and tangible sense ( to stand before a holy God) no longer needing yearly, continuing sacrifices. This is what 1John and Hebrews is is talking about. God cannot lie and call a sinning person sinless just because of what he professes as a belief system. This imparted righteousness, according Hebrews chapters 8 through 10, is what Judaism lacked in the sacrificial system, thus requiring continual sacrifices.This imparted righteousness is as much a part of being saved as imputed righteousness is, especially to John and Hebrews ( and Jesus in the gospel of John). Thus, the stern warnings found in 1John 2&3 and Hebrews 10:26 and 6:4. According to 1John, this imparted righteousness,”HE CANNOT SIN BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD” is the sign of a true Christian.

    That being the New Testament definition, I have never met a “true Christian”.

    • Alan says:

      This is very helpful! In light of what you wrote, here’s how I think a mature Christian would answer:

      The combination of the imputed rigteousness and the struggle with the imparted righteousness makes a person clean and pure enough to stand before God and not be rejected by him. These are both ideas borrowed from the Torah. It’s all in the Torah – they just transfered everything in the Torah to Jesus. I might not be making myself clear.

      • Eleazar says:

        Yes, Alan,

        The difference is that Torah does acknowledge the struggle ( Ysrael= one who struggles with God and with man) and that is understood. Yes, we can all do it. But the truth is that we don’t all do it. God is not going burn someone in eternal hellfire because he is not 100% perfect. The whole point Hebrews is making is that this “struggle” , which requires a yearly sacrifice to cover your short-fallings, is where Judaism,Torah and the Mosaic Covenant fails. Read this carefully:

        “The law ( Torah) is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would NO LONGER HAVE FELT GUILTY FOR THEIR SINS. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.”

        The only ways a human can not feel guilty about their sin is to-
        A- Abolish any standard of sin
        B- Stop sinning
        C- To be a sociopath.

        So was Hebrews promising make people perfect and no longer needing a sacrifice or promising to create a religion of spiritual sociopaths who didn’t have to care if they sinned or not?

        SIDE NOTE:Do Christians feel guilty for their sins? Paul, Kavi and any other Christian who comes here would say absolutely! So how has the Christian covenant resolved this dilemma that is considered a failing of Torah? IT HASN’T!

        • Alan says:

          I read it carefully and it is saying that Hashem in the Torah was a sadistic liar when he said that the Temple offerings, especially Yom Kippur, atone. Thanks for being patient with me. I’m finally starting to see what you’re seeing in these passages – these are impossible claims of no more revolving door and yet admitting to a revolving door at the same time.

        • KAVI says:

          Eleazar,
          The Book of Hebrews roots itself in the teaching of Tanakh in order to describe how G-d redeems mankind and makes them holy…

          And like Apostle John and Apostle Paul, the Tanakh forms the basis for their writings as well– for example, in describing the completeness of the L-RD’s redemption based on Psalm 32 and other passages of Tanakh,

          How blessed is the man to whom the L-RD does not impute iniquity,
          And in whose spirit there is no deceit! [Psalm 32:2]

          Anyone unafraid to read the Book of Hebrews for themselves might very well find a logical presentation of the good news of the L-RD’s complete salvation in L-RD Yeshua…on the other hand, maybe they won’t…but at least they will have read and made their own decision…
          _______________________________

          • Eleazar says:

            Kavi, imputed righteousness is not what is under discussion. But while you’re at it, explain why this Psalm says nothing about this imputed righteousness being the result of “believing in” a dead man or a human sacrifice.

            Read my posts and you will see why imputed righteousness ( “justification” to use the Christian term) cannot be what is in view in Hebrews 10 or 1 John2 and 3.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi
          I don’t feel guilty at all for my sins.
          I’m profoundly and abundantly joyful that my sins have been forgiven.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            You don’t feel guilty about past sins, but do you ever feel guilty when G-d forbid you do?

            Regarding the last post about Pol Pot, so you are saying even a monster like him was capable of being a part of the kingdom and it’s even possible (though highly unlikely) that we will see him there?

          • Alan says:

            1John2:3 “8He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God.”

            Paul Summers,
            This says that he that commits sin is of the devil. And whoever is in Jesus cannot sin.
            Do you believe that you, Paul Summers, cannot sin?
            And if you know that you still sometimes sin, do you feel responsible for the sin or do you feel it has nothing to do with you?

          • Alan says:

            “I don’t feel guilty at all for my sins.
            I’m profoundly and abundantly joyful that my sins have been forgiven.”

            Paul,
            In Psalm 51 you can see how King David felt about his sins. He felt joy for being forgiven but at the same time the regret/guilty feeling never went away as long as he lived. This is the attitude of the true line of David to sin –

            Psalms Chapter 51
            5 For I know my transgressions; and my sin is always before me.
            18 For You do not delight in sacrifice, else would I give it; You have no pleasure in burnt-offering.
            19 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
            a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
            20 Do good in Your favor to Zion; build the walls of Jerusalem.
            21 Then will You delight in the sacrifices of righteousness, in burnt-offering and whole offering;
            then will they offer bullocks upon Your altar.

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            In regards to Pol Pot, what are Orthodox Judaism’s teachings regarding true teshuvah and vile, murderous sin?
            __________________________

          • Alan says:

            Kavi,
            “In regards to Pol Pot, what are Orthodox Judaism’s teachings regarding true teshuvah and vile, murderous sin?”

            On the one hand, nothing can stand in the way of teshuva. On the other hand, the more severe a person’s sins are, the more difficult it becomes to do teshuva, even to the point of having the privilege of teshuva finally being taken away so there is no longer any possibility of doing teshuva. The effort it takes to successfully do teshuva increases in proportion to the weight of a person’s sins. In Christianity all one has to do to make it into the kingdom is to not be an atheist, to be made aware of the ‘good news’ and to believe that somebody else already paid the price for one’s sins.

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            Since you quote from Apostle John, I thought it might be best to show you the parallel concepts rooted in Tanakh…

            In Psalm 32, I think we find two ideas presented…
            [a] The L-RD will not impute sin to certain men and women [Psalm 32:1-2 and the “seed” in 1 John 3:9]
            [b] Yet, David did sin after achieving that perfect state of righteousness and, as such, see how G-d deals with him until David confesses his sin to the L-RD to remove the “guilt” associated with that sin [Psalm 32:3-5 and 1 John 2:1]

            We know that mankind has a body and Nephesh– and it would appear that when first created, the L-RD imparted His Holy Spirit as well into mankind’s Nephesh.

            Does it seem inconceivable to you that the L-RD can make holy again the Nephesh [which is eternal] while not cleanse body [which is temporal]?

            ______________________________

          • Alan says:

            “Alan,
            Since you quote from Apostle John, I thought it might be best to show you the parallel concepts rooted in Tanakh…

            In Psalm 32, I think we find two ideas presented…
            [a] The L-RD will not impute sin to certain men and women [Psalm 32:1-2 and the “seed” in 1 John 3:9]
            [b] Yet, David did sin after achieving that perfect state of righteousness and, as such, see how G-d deals with him until David confesses his sin to the L-RD to remove the “guilt” associated with that sin [Psalm 32:3-5 and 1 John 2:1]

            We know that mankind has a body and Nephesh– and it would appear that when first created, the L-RD imparted His Holy Spirit as well into mankind’s Nephesh.

            Does it seem inconceivable to you that the L-RD can make holy again the Nephesh [which is eternal] while not cleanse body [which is temporal]?”

            I read the above several times, and I’m not following. Also, there is no such thing as a “perfect state of righteousness” according to traditional Judaism. If one has flesh and blood, then sins and mistakes will happen.

        • When a Christian sins in front of his god, then he tells himself that the present sin and future sin and past sin has already been forgiven/atoned/cleared. Animal sacrifices were to take away guilt and Christian thinks that his god took away guilt from all years. This is not matter of sorrowful heart, this is celebration for the Christian.

    • Dina says:

      Eleazar, your intimate knowledge of Christian scripture makes you a formidable opponent of Christianity. I find your arguments on this page unassailable. Good work!

  14. PAUL SUMMERS says:

    Hi Alan
    Postionly, once I was seperate from God, before my salvation but this, then, I of course never new. However looking from Gods perspective future, then, I was always predestined to be saved. That is something I never new of past. Romans ch 8 v29. Ephesians ch 1 v 5 and v11. However Im well aware of it now. So no guilt trip, just blessed thanks for His Grace.

    Unless Pol Pot repented to the fact that he himself was a sinner and Christ Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for his sins, then no salvation for Mr Pott. Plus I think?? He was a Buddhist and definitely at communist. Communism is founded on atheism. So unless he repented on his political and religious stances prior, his eternal life is quite grim.

    I think the passage that you are referring to is 1 John ch 3 vs 4-9??
    These verses are contextually speaking about believers and non believers. ie, v 9 states “Who ever has been born of God does not sin” The text isnt saying who believes does not commit sin or have the sin nature. The next part states His seed remains in him. The His seed is Christ and the Gospel truth. The him cannot sin in the sense of becoming a unbeliever. The opening verses set the context, Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor know Him. So the sin is unbelief and unrighteousness, lawlessness.
    If it meant what you think it means in the sense that John is referring to the absence of general sin in a believers life, then the whole message of the Gospel is flawed on the basis that sinners are irrelevant to Christs death, because how can a sinner get to know Christ if he has sin to start with??
    Jesus very clearly stated that He had come to call sinners to repentance. Luke 5 32.
    Once you repent the seed remains and the sin is no longer.

    I dont disagree with your comments about David and his knowledge of his own faults and sin nature. However David was well aware of the inherited sin nature from his mother, and of course he understood how God could restore him. Personally I cannot advise completely about Davids feelings only my own, but you do get the sense from the text that Uriahs death troubled him, if it was this death that he was talking about. I dont see any repentance about the adultery though?

    • Alan says:

      Hi Paul,
      So if Pol Pot had admitted he was a sinner and Jesus died for his sins, he would be saved.

      “9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God.”

      So you are saying that “he cannot commit sin” and “he cannot sin” only mean that once he’s a believer he cannot be an unbeliever even though he can still commit sin? So once one is a believer, the sins are not really sins anymore simply because one is a believer?

      You said you feel no guilt at all for your sins anymore – i assume you mean past sins. Do you ever feel any guilt for new sins?

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi Alan

        Not sure if you’ve had chance to read my last response.
        The text that you quoted is referring to the sin of unbelief in contrast of belief. Its not talking about sin in a believer’s life. Again, contextually its the sin of unbelief.

        And yes If pol pot has repented on his nature, and seen that Christ had died for his sins, and through Christ’s death, burial and resurrection he, pol pot had been forgiven, then yes, even a man as such would be saved. John 3 16.

        • Alan says:

          Hi Paul,
          Yes I read your last response. I just wanted to make sure you are saying that the impossible sinning was exclusively referring to disbelief. Can you please define this disbelief as well as repentance that is required to be saved?

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi Alan
        Sorry didn’t finish.
        I personally don’t feel guilty for my present sins, but that’s not to say that I’m not aware of them. I would liken the feeling as more annoyed and frustrated. The feeling of being weak in the flesh.

        2 Corinthian s CH 12 v9.

        • Alan says:

          Paul,
          The feeling of being annoyed by sins – does this mean you don’t feel personally responsible, that it’s not really your fault, it’s beyond your control and free will?

          • Paul Summers says:

            1 Corinthians 10 v13

            Yes we are responsible for our personal sins. That’s the frustrating part. But because of weakness and lack of self will, we falter and sin.
            Paul understood this completely. Rom CHs 6,7,8

            2 Corinthian 12 v9

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            So we have free will to choose good or bad. But with Christ there is no more punishment? (as in reward and punishment)

            What does a person need to do (or think or say) in order to do the kind of repentance that is required to be saved?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            We do have the choice between good, bad. Non believers do not have the this choice. Non believers can only serve the flesh. Believers can serve either. That’s the issue which is a spiritual struggle.

            There isn’t a special ordered prayer for salvation. One just needs to believe by faith, that Christ Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            When you say that only believers can choose between good and evil –
            1. Please define “believer”.
            2. If the believer can choose to think, say and do evil, then – is the believer of the devil? And in what sense has Christ destroyed the works of the devil?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            At first I was under the impression that you were genuinely seeking some answers on theological doctrine. However I’m now under the impression that its a mere mocking quest that you seek. I’m afraid our discussions end here.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I give you my word that I am not mocking. What did you see in my last comment that made you think that?

          • Paul Summers
            So you are here to learn?! – Tell me – is Psalm 41 speaking of Jesus or not?

          • Dina says:

            Paul writes: “At first I was under the impression that you were genuinely seeking some answers on theological doctrine. However I’m now under the impression that its a mere mocking quest that you seek. I’m afraid our discussions end here.”

            This is a bit rich coming from someone who was kicked off this blog (and squirmed his way back in a most unethical manner) because he refused to engage and insisted on one-way preaching.

            Paul, you are not hear to learn but to try to convert others to your way of thinking. Are you projecting your own motives onto others?

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            I understand your line of questioning and it is perfectly reasonable…

            Since Paul Summers will not address the questions you raise, I will…

            [Note: …though first, I still would like to elaborate a bit more upon Psalm 32]
            _____________

  15. Apostle John says it is a liar if we say we did not sin or we do not sin.
    Before holy God we will all fall short of His glory and holiness. Stand in front of the Torah, we will be found guilty in some area in some time of our lives.
    My question is how we could be atoned for in this time of history when we dont have high priest, the temple, and animal sacrifices?

    • Eleazar says:

      Gean, how were we atoned for between the first and second temple period when there were no sacrifices? Were the Jews in captivity damned because there was no temple? Tanakh has plenty of examples of people forgiven without sacrifices. Oh, and many of those sacrifices did not use animals or blood at all.

      “Apostle John says it is a liar if we say we did not sin or we do not sin.”

      Yes he does, and then in the same paragraph goes on to say that Christians do not sin and will live just like Jesus! Here is the text you referenced:

      1John 1:8-10 “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

      There you have it! Seems plain enough. This is Paul’s, Gean’s and Kavi’s argument in clear terms. But wait.Let’s move ahead a couple of sentences:

      “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He ( Jesus) walked.

      The first paragraph gives you the “revolving door” of sin/condemnation and repentance/salvation. The second says the Christian will walk JUST as Jesus walked, and will keep the commandments! And a few later:

      “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ”

      So then. Part of 1John says if we claim to be without sin we are liars, so you have a permanent defense attorney between man and God, Jesus, to get you pardoned. But then just a few sentences later it says that if you do sin you DO NOT EVEN KNOW JESUS, and that if you are a Christian your walk will be JUST like that of Jesus!. Finally, it goes even further to say that if you are a Christian you are not even ABLE to sin because you are “born of God” and His seed remains in you!

      Let’s boil it down to only three sentences for simplicity:

      1- If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.”

      2-The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

      If you believe you don’t sin, you’re a liar, but if you DO sin you’re also a liar, and not even a Christian!
      Is this the “revolving door” again? Or is there a way to make perfect sense of the entire book of 1John? And Hebrews, for that matter.

      Yes there is, and I will explain after Shabbos!

      • eleazar, have you seen Jimmy swaggarts apology on you tube? he is teary eyed and begging his god for forgiveness. Here is my confusion:

        why would he show feelings of guilt when his god already cleared him of past, present and future crimes?

        WHen swaggart went around converting non-believers , he may have told them about lust, lying , hate while at same time , in his heart, knowing that all his lust had already been forgiven/cleared/atoned.

        So why teary eyed with guilty face ? isn’t the sacrifice meant to bring happiness to christian ? Don’t they celebrate that someone else was “sacrificed” because of their crime?

      • Eleazar says:

        The explanation of 1John is that when he says “if we say are without sin we are liars, and make God a liar” he is speaking of our past or even present struggle of a person who is not fully converted. He says “I write these words to you so that you WILL NOT SIN.”

        The other text, which says “He cannot sin because God’s seed remains in him” speaks exactly to the same thing Hebrews does, which is the indwelling spirit of God changing you from a sinner to a person who does not, and cannot, because God himself cannot sin, and therefore the person in whom His seed lives also does not sin. This speaks to a converted Christian, not just one who professes.

        This is half, at least, of what the gospel IS! In fact, John says plainly, “No one who abides in Him sins…The SON OF GOD APPEARED FOR THIS PURPOSE, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ”

        THIS IS THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THE NEW TESTAMENT!

        NOW, please note this is speaking DIRECTLY to the fallen human nature! UNLESS YOU BELIEVE THE DEVIL CAN LITERALLY MAKE YOU SIN, it has to be talking about the Garden of Eden and Adam/Eve! John said this work of the devil is “from the beginning”. It is saying Jesus’ entire point of coming was to destroy the works of the devil as seen in effects of the fall in the garden and on from there! People would stop sinning because they would go back to a pre-fallen condition where God’s spirit abides within and changes your spiritual (and dare I say, physical since it was part of the fall according to Christianity) DNA from that of a sinner to that of a person who CANNOT SIN.

        IF THIS WERE TRUE IT WOULD BE THE MOST ASTOUNDING EVENT IN HISTORY! DID IT HAPPEN?

        Paul Summers, Gean and Kavi. Did Jesus destroy the works of the devil or not? You all admit to sinning. Are you then of the devil? Yes or no? And there is NOTHING about the 2nd coming in John’s words! They are ALL PRESENT TENSE and intended for his current audience.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi,
          Yes Jesus did destroy the works of the devil. Through His Death and resurrection. The full revelation of this is seen through the resurrection of the saint into a glorified body at the resurrection.

          Not sure what you mean about the 2nd coming in this discussion?

          • Eleazar says:

            Because the resurrection you speak of, the one where you claim you finally stop sinning and everything the messiah is supposed to do actually happens, takes pace at the 2nd coming.

            Nothing in John or Hebrews says ANYTHING about the resurrection being when Christians finally stop sinning. John says you stop sinning because you abide in God and God’s seed abides in you. NOTHING about glorified bodies or human resurrections. It is ALL present tense and were teachings directed to , and relevant to, the people at that time. Both books clearly say a Christians does not sin because God’s seed/spirit lives in him. Nothing about a glorified body.

            If you’re going to comment, please say something substantial and refute my points and interpretation with your scripture. If you want to pit Paul against Hebrews, John and Jesus, then go for it. But then you have to find a harmony between them all if you believe the NT is inerrant and infallible. Just saying “you’re wrong, it happens this way” does nothing to clarify or harmonize the textual teaching. BTW- Your argument is with Jesus, John and the writer of Hebrews, not with me.

            But frankly, you obviously are either not reading my posts or are ignoring what the text actually says, else you would have a more substantial response.

          • Dina says:

            Eleazar, you are correct. Paul has not addressed the contradiction at all.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Eleazar
            Sorry for the delay.

            Firstly I think it only right to correct you on the points that you have made.

            No where did I say or the NT teach that sinlessness comes for Church saints at the 2nd coming of the Messiah. That’s you incorrect reading of anything said by me in regard to scripture. If you can find such teaching I would much appreciate the blogs to support such views.

            The 2nd coming of Messiah and resurrection of Church saints are 2 completely different actions which take place at 2 completely different moments in time. This is why I asked you why you mentioned the event. It seemed confusing then, but know I see you have a misplaced preconceived idea on the texts. Something which is proven by your comments.

            Secondly I’ve already pointed out that the seed that remains is the gospel message converting one to a spiritual life, which as you have stated, its in the present state. I’ve also pointed out that believers still have the sin nature and the capacity to sin while being believers.

            2 Timothy 3 16 teaches that by the Power of Him, The Holy Spirit, the Scriptures are for teaching, rebuking those who believe in God. You find it easy to find “fault”!?! In the texts. There is no fault, you just lack a foundation of Him to work on. Faith in Him, a Spiritual rebirth.

            I’m not sure if my points are substantial enough for you?

  16. i have a question for you paul.
    there is a christian apologist called james white who thinks that not only was jesus sacrificed but did the act of sacrificing himself in some unknown way. roman deeds are stained with sin and your god needs “sinless deeds” to appease himself, then it is only logical that your god was NAILING himself in some unknown way. roman ACTS cannot transfer sins. roman nailing cannot appease your god. so do you agree that jesus NAILEd himself in some unknown way?

    • Paul Summers says:

      Hello
      The NT very clearly describes very clearly how, when, by whom, and why He was crucified.
      Any other apparent reasons are to be ignored in its entirety.

      • but james white would argue that human acts cannot punish jesus for past, present and future sins in ALL years. unless you believe the father inflated pagan power and divinized it .

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi
          To be honest you’re argument is based on a thought of some one, not scripture, then pre assuming that argument to be valid.
          Now you are focusing on his ideas to justify your stance. This will go no where!!

      • Eleazar says:

        So you believe the extremely complex holy sacrificial system reserved for an anointed priest “foreshadowed” a simple and commonly used execution by a pagan procurator?

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi
          Its the death and the shedding of blood that’s the issue and How God had chosen such.
          Its by His stripes we are healed. Not by the bronze laver.

          Is a 53.5.
          Jer 31v33.

  17. Eleazar says:

    “The 2nd coming of Messiah and resurrection of Church saints are 2 completely different actions which take place at 2 completely different moments in time. ”

    That is one of several views. But from here out I will refrain from saying “2nd coming” on this topic and instead say “resurrection”. It changes nothing, of course. Either way you disagree with the plain meaning of the text. The indwelling spirit of God spoken of in these texts is not “the gospel message”. It is the indwelling of the holy spirit.

    “2 Timothy 3 16 teaches that by the Power of Him, The Holy Spirit, the Scriptures are for teaching, rebuking those who believe in God.”

    I’ll address this after I get home from work. But in short, its a reach.

    • Paul Summers says:

      Hi,
      Yes its the Holy Spirit that indwells all believers from the beginning. The Gospel message is the mode, by the Spirit the means.
      The Holy Spirit, being God cannot sin.

      1 Corinthians 12. v 13
      Is 43.v15

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hello YPF
        Just for the record I’m learning here all the time. Trust me what I’ve learned over the last few years is priceless.
        Thankyou

        Psalm 41 has been exhausted by both parties, mine and I’m sure yours hasn’t changed?
        If you have anything else to add that wasn’t spoken of previously I would be more than happy to hear your views.

        In anticipation
        X

        • Paul Summers Yes or no – is Psalm 41 speaking about Jesus?

          1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello YFP
            For, probably the 4-5th time, I’m sure I’ve said so, the answer is No.
            The psalm is quoted by Jesus because there’s a line in the psalm that talks about a ” friend” betraying a friend.
            There’s nothing in the psalm that speaks about the whole psalm being the Messiah, v 2 is a good indication also.
            I hope this finally clears this matter up.

            Thankyou.

          • Paul Summers So how you would you describe someone who quotes one verse out of this Psalm and claims that it is “proof” to the alleged Messiah-ship of Jesus because he “fulfilled” the prophet’s word?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Paul Summers says:

        PS
        How can one just say “it changes nothing” I’ve just clearing shown your knowledge of scripture to be doubted on a great and central issue to, a, the debate in question, and b, Theology teaching as per scripture.
        And you say that you can show no harmony and inconsistent texts in the NT. You are joking, right??

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hello Dina, its been a while.

          First point is that I wasn’t kicked off this blog for preaching, I was removed for not accepting non believers views on scripture. Basically I was told not to have my own view. Views, which incidentally, I can could show from the Scriptures.
          Secondly I didn’t “squirm” myself back onto the site. I connected to the site via an email that I received. I inputted a response to a blog, and at my surprise the response was posted.
          I didn’t ask IF I could return, nor did I promise to bend and become a YES man for your gratification.

          So the word squirm that you use is inaccurate and a disproportionate to the truth. Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan
            OK, on reflection, and on your response, I will endeavor to try and answer your questions.

            1. Define a believer.

            A believer is any person from the period of Acts CH 2, until the rapture ( we are talking only church period for know) who has believed that Christ Jesus died on the cross to penalty for ones sins. That through His, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection they have been forgiven and redeemed to the God of Israel, through His Son.
            Sorry for any misunderstandings.

          • Alan says:

            Paul, thanks for reconsidering. I assumed you have seen me commenting here for several months now and therefore you already knew where I’m coming from. If you haven’t just let me know and I’ll catch you up.
            When you say that only believers in Jesus have the power to choose good over evil, you are only referring to believers who lived during a short period of time at the beginning of Christianity?

          • Alan says:

            You must mean that a believer is someone who believes that the death, burial and resurrection save them from being eternally cursed and bring them to eternal life and this includes people who lived during the lifetime of Jesus until today. Does this mean that people who lived before Jesus were unable to do good? Does it mean that a non-believer is unable to do good? But this contradicts what we see in real life every day. And it also contradicts Tanakh which shows that God expected people to act morally – both Jews and non-Jews – before and after the Torah was given at Mt. Sinai.

          • Brother Alan, Please forgive the church for not presenting the teachings of the NT accurately. To those who believed in Yeshua himself, Yeshua directed their faith to the word of God (John 8:31 the core message of the Gospel is that the word of Yeshua is the word of God, not that Yeshua is God )! The NT gives ample evidence that the people of pre-Yeshua time did good and obeyed the word of God and entered the eternal life: Abel, Noah, Abraham Isaac Jacov, Solomon, David…. …. … … … So many… queen Sheba, Ninevites,… The parents of John the Baptist, Shimeon of Luke 2:25 and many many more!!!
            True believer means, according to the NT, is someone who hears and obey the word of God revealed through consciences, the Torah and Tanackh, and Yeshua.

          • Alan says:

            Thank you brother GGJ. If someone believes in the Torah, keeps the commandments, tries to be a moral and ethical person for the sake of God, but doesn’t accept the NT, is this person a true believer according to NT?

          • Alan says:

            Sorry, GGJ, my question wasn’t good. Obviously, such a person is not a true believer according to NT. What I should have asked you was: is such a person able to do good? And if they are able to do good, are they able to be good?

          • I think the Messianic Pharisee Paul honestly shared “he wanted to do good – actually he kept the Torah and all the commandments- but did evil that he wanted not to do” Romans 7:20-25

            I am so sleepy now and will come back tomorrow

          • Alan says:

            GGJ,
            Are you saying that pre-Jesus, a person was able to do good and be good, but after Jesus, a person is unable to do good and be good without Jesus?

          • Brother Alan, It does not matter whether pre or after , i guess Mankind always have been struggling to overcome sin; We are Absolutely Able to do good and to be good to keep the commandments of God. However many of us often fail. Enoch, Noah, Job, and a few people might be exception.

            I often think of the reason why people easily fall into sin. It is not because of original sin but because of 😱 fear of sin. We all know what God has said to Cain: “If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”

            Sin is portrayed like a beast!
            Satan was working in the midst of serpent! Why Adam and eve forgot Genesis 1:27, 28? The authority and mandate to master and rule over those beasts?

            We must master the sin and rule over it without fear of being overcome by it and being condemned by God.

            If we keep the Torah out of fear of punishment, we will find ourselves often in our defeat; However, if we keep the Torah out of fear of God who showed the everlasting love and forgiveness for us on the cross, we will overcome and rule over the sin the beast!

            That is why kids get up more early on the picnic day than on the regular school days even though they know they have to get up more early on the school days! 🙂

          • Alan says:

            GGJ,
            Everything you wrote sounds 100% correct except for one thing: “However, if we keep the Torah out of fear of God who showed the everlasting love and forgiveness for us on the cross, we will overcome and rule over the sin the beast!”

            This is completely unnecessary. We could do it before the Cross and we can do it after the Cross with the same tools we had before the Cross. We all can do it – just us and Hashem with no other god or force or intermediary.

          • Brother, if you were living in Jerusalem in the time of Yeshua, when the temple sacrifice was still effective, would you have used the same tool (you mean repentance?) Or tried to follow the Torah for the atonement?

            Before C.E.70, when the temple was destroyed, God did nothing? Prepared no alternative for His covenant people? Or just wiped out the temple without preparing the hearts of His people?

            Why God tore the temple curtain when Yeshua died on the cross?

          • Alan says:

            GGJ,

            I hope I would have been among the Jews who did not take the easy way out and believe in a false prophet and false messiah.

            Where are you getting this torn curtain story from? Tanakh? Mishnah? Talmud?

          • Brother, personally i believe the ancient record of your Jewish ancestor (if you were a Jew) is true. At least four people recorded it called Gospels.

            False prophet means to me that someone declare something in the name of Hashem and it does not come true. What words of Yeshua did not come true?

          • Alan says:

            The Torah says a false prophet is not just one who says something in the name of Hashem that doesn’t come to pass. It’s also one who says he’s a prophet and starts a new religion, makes people serve someone or something other than Hashem or changes the halachic system.

            What words of Yeshua didn’t come true? He told the followers of his generation that they would live to see the final redemption of the Jewish people.

          • Brother Alan. In what terms Yeshua started a “NEW” religion? He just RENEWED the covenant that was being shattered by the failure of the people of God. Yeshua did not say “pour out the water jar for Jewish purification and i will make a new wine in the empty jar” No. He transformed the water into 🍷 wine.

            When did Yeshua command to serve or -worship himself or other God?

            Are you saying that some will live to see the coming of the kingdom of God?

          • Alan says:

            Whatever he said in NT he led thousands of people to worship him, if he didn’t say it directly he put a huge stumbling block in front of unlearned people who stumbled in it.

            He told people of his generation that they are the generation of redemption and they would live to see it.

          • I thank you for taking simultaneously time to teach me and correct me in this conversation. Could you please quot NT passage or verse you want to argue with?

          • Alan says:

            GGJ,

            Someone else on this blog will have to give you the source in the NT as I don’t know it off hand. I’m sorry.

          • Alan says:

            GGJ,
            I think these are the sources:
            Matthew 24:34
            Luke 21:32

          • Dina says:

            Gean, the following excerpt from one of my responses to CP is relevant to this conversation.

            Jesus Was a False Prophet

            This is much more serious than false messiah. If you claim to be the messiah, nobody would care. If you die without completing the task, you’ll be proved false. But so what? False prophet is worse, because anyone who speaks in God’s name words that he did not speak is liable to receive the death penalty.

            In Deuteronomy 18, Moses tells the people that a prophet who speaks falsely must be put to death. But, he tells them, you might well ask, how will we know? And this is how he teaches us to figure out: if the prophet gives a sign that doesn’t come to pass. In other words, we’re supposed to test the prophet by asking for a sign.

            But what happens when the Pharisees ask for a sign, according to the gospels? Jesus gets angry at them! Still, he reluctantly and grudgingly promises them the sign of Jonah. But he does not appear to them on the third day after his death. He allegedly appears in resurrected form only to his most devoted followers, and they don’t say a word until he’s been gone for fifty days!

            Jesus promised his followers that before they died he would come on the clouds to gather his elect. They died. He never came.

            Jesus predicted that the Temple and all of its buildings would be so thoroughly eradicated, not one stone would be left standing on the other. The Western Wall remains. The remains of the other buildings still stand.

            Some prophet, huh?

            But it gets worse. In Deuteronomy 13, we are taught that if a prophet performs miracles but teaches a new type of worship, he is a false prophet. This is why Jews are not impressed by Jesus’s supposed miracles. He taught avodah zarah.

            What is avodah zarah? It means foreign worship. The Torah defines avodah zarah in three ways:

            1) a type of worship unknown to us and/or to our fathers (Deuteronomy 13:7, 29:25; 32:17).

            2) worship of any entity other than God (Exodus 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7, Isaiah 45:5, Isaiah 43:11).

            3) any type of worship not taught to us at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 4).

            Jesus taught, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and on one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6).

            This is a type of worship that was unknown to us and to our fathers and is also a type of worship that was not taught at Sinai. For those who believe that Jesus is also God, it is worship of an entity other than God. Therefore, it is avodah zarah, foreign worship.

            This teaching, which explicitly states that you need a man to get to God, contradicts the Torah. It also contradicts the explicit teaching that God is close to all who call to him with sincerity (Psalm 145:18).

            Jesus taught about himself “I am the first and I am the last,” a description reserved only for God (Isaiah 44:6).

            John, Chapter 1, teaches that Jesus is the word of God made flesh, also a foreign concept.

            In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth (NIV: 1-5, 14).

            This is such obvious avodah zarah, it turns my stomach.

            Jesus gave signs that did not come to pass and taught avodah zarah. Thus, he failed both prophet tests.

          • Alan says:

            Thank you and yashar ko’ach, Dina!

          • I guess Yeshua divided the whole dispensation of humanity into 3 generations: generation Before the judement of Noah’ s flood, generation between Noah’ s family and the judgement of the Messiah’ s second coming and the generation after the judgement into eternal kingdom of God.

            The fig tree represent Israel. “When it becomes soft and bears leaves” means Ezekiel 36:26 the softening of the hearts of his people toward Gospel, which was once hardened by God’ s providence. The Summer (קיץ= end קץ) is near. The modern phenomenon of the Messianic movement and the growth of orthodox Judaism indicates the end of this world is coming near.

          • Paul Summers I was the one who kicked you off the blog – I kicked you off because you demonstrated that you don’t have the ability to concede even the most obvious flaw in your position – can you or can you not answer the question is Psalm 41 speaking of Jesus? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Dina says:

            Paul, this is a blatant, outright lie:

            “First point is that I wasn’t kicked off this blog for preaching, I was removed for not accepting non believers views on scripture. Basically I was told not to have my own view.”

            Show me where anyone told you that you have to accept our views and that you can’t have your own view or you will be kicked off this blog. You are shameless.

            Having been kicked off, at least have the decency to ask for permission to come back, instead of trying it out and seeing that, voila! your comments got through.

            Finally, does anyone else find the exclusive nature of both Christianity and Islam interesting? Christians call non-Christians “non-believers” or “unbelievers” and Muslims call non-Muslims “kafirs” or “infidels.” But Jews don’t have a pejorative word for non-Jews (at least not officially; of course there are some Jews who engage in nasty name calling and I condemn the act). Jews believe that gentiles can be righteous and have a relationship with God. Unlike both other world religions, Judaism does not believe it has a monopoly on God, morality, and righteousness. A much more humble view, don’t you agree?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Dina
            Not wanting to go and on reference my kicking off. But the fact of the matter was clearly as I stated. I can’t repent to a issue that
            I don’t believe in. The wording was very clear at the time. If it can be found, and I’m found to be wrong I would gladly apologize for the previous statement.

            Also the reason I use the term believer and non believer is a simply matter of term of reference. To use the term Christian is often seen as a gentile only believer. To use Jew is often seen as Orthodox Jew who follows Judaism. This is one of the reasons that the “Church” has unfortunately separated it self from its roots, which has caused so much ignorance, which in turn has caused so much bloodshed. Because the average person can’t see that Jews can be believers in Christ Jesus. I thought you of all people could see this, especially with the enormous time I’ve spent engaging you on this very topic.
            1 Corinthians 12 v13.

          • Sharon S says:

            Hi Gean,

            Good day.Allow me to give my humble answer to your questions above.

            “Brother Alan. In what terms Yeshua started a “NEW” religion? He just RENEWED the covenant that was being shattered by the failure of the people of God. Yeshua did not say “pour out the water jar for Jewish purification and i will make a new wine in the empty jar” No. He transformed the water into wine”

            Did Jesus started a new religion?

            In order to answer that question , you need to read the Jewish Bible without the “Jesus lenses”. Read it as how a Jew would have read it . Put yourself in the shoes of a Jew. Then compare the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures to the Gospels. Did Jesus conduct his ministry within the religious framework of his day i.e Jewish halacha ?

            1. He spoke with authority that set him apart from scribes (Mark 1:22, 27: Matt 8:9, Luke 7.8)
            2. Jesus reconfigured divine commandments based on his own authority (Matt 5:21, 27,33,38,43)
            3. In one instance he claimed authority to transcend the Sabbath since the Son of Man was “Lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27-28)

            “Taken from “How God Became Jesus: The Real Origins of Belief in Jesus’ Divine Nature—A Response to Bart Ehrman” (page 59)”

            Point (1) is debatable . There are stories of individuals within other religious traditions that goes against religious authorities in their day. Martin Luther among them.

            Rabbi Skobac had gone through point (2) and some are consistent with the Torah teachings , with certain exceptions especially with regards to the teaching on divorce (which has been extensively discussed in this blog )

            If Jesus was a religious rebel , then point (3) to me is way across the line, as what he was advocating is tantamount to disrespecting the main “tenet” of Judaism . Compare this to to Leviticus 31:12-14:
            12The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13″But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. 14’Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.…

            Here’s another point ,from my own observation :

            John 6:53-55

            53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

            Compare this to Leviticus Chapter 17: 10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood”

            Did he come to start a new religion ?I am most certain it is a yes.

            When did Yeshua command to serve or -worship himself or other God?

            It was and still is difficult for me to come to terms on the fact that Jesus command to serve or worship him.Many liberal scholars are of the view that Jesus did not see himself as one -that the NT authors put words in his mouth-and I believed that for a long time.

            Rabbi Blumenthal pointed out in one of his videos that the real messiah doesn’t divert attention to himself .With that in mind let’s compare two sets of prayers ,one by Elijah (Elijah and the prophets of Baal) the prophet and the other by Jesus (the resurrection of Lazarus)

            1 Kings 18:36-37

            36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

            John 11:41-42

            41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the [k]people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.”

            I rest my case.

            You may find works of Christian scholars helpful for proofs that Jesus has always thought himself as God (like the book I quoted above or by written by Lee Strobel ) as well as videos by Christian apologists such as Ravi Zacaharias ,Nabeel Qureshi ,James White etc.

            Thank you

          • Alan says:

            Sharon,
            This is fantastic! I am in awe. Thank you so very much!

          • Brother Sharon. I thank you for your comments with me and i admire your humbleness.

            ★I decided to put myself in the shoes of a Jew because that is what the New Testament commands!
            1.Yeshua, “if you put a New cloth (NT theology or gentile Christian lens) on the Old garment (תנ”ך) it pulls the cloth and make a hole!” Matthew 9:16
            Yeshua meant put the Old cloth (Jewish lens) on the new garment (Gospels)!
            2. Paul, “All Scripture (which means תנך) is God- breathed and useful for teaching (Christian doctrine)” 2Timothy 3:16. Paul meant if any Christian teaching or doctrine is not consistent with the Old Testament, it is no useful rather harmful!

            ★When God said about Shabbat, He said “this is a sign אות between me and you”
            אות
            also means LETTER
            The First letter א
            The last letter ת
            Yeshua is the WORD (Letter) of God made in flesh (John1:14) and also the Alpha ( the First Letter of Greek) and Omega (the last letter) = אות

            ★Did any follower of Yeshua for the past 2000 years eat the real flesh or drink the blood of him?
            “Whoever eats the flesh and drinks my blood REMAINS in Me and I in THEM”
            This means anyone who keeps the word of God = flesh and blood of Yeshua (John 1:14) be united with Yeshua. When the Jews believed in Yeshua himself, He diverted the attention; ” if you REMAIN in my Word, you become my disciple, Know the truth and the truth will set you free” (John8:31, 32) In the whole Gospel of John, the prologue of LOGOS theology(John 1:1~18) is permeated in the every verse of the John’s Gospel.
            ★can you find any NT verse that proves Yeshua always thought himself as God?

            Thanks brother

          • brother gean , clearly paul thought of jesus as distinct being from god. paul did not believe jesus was yhwh. check out this current discussion

            http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588&sid=b0fb565f9d6397b8eb5e4eb5fc834720#p71701

          • RT says:

            Gene
            “False prophet means to me that someone declare something in the name of Hashem and it does not come true.”

            This is a false prophecy:

            False prophet means to me that someone declare something in the name of Hashem and it does not come true.

            Another:
            Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

            “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
            What about the western wall?

            39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
            Jesus showed himself only to his disciples, he gave them the “sign of Jonah” and never showed up to them…

          • Sharon S says:

            Hi Gean,
            You are a very courteous person. By the way ,its more appropriate to address me as “sister” Sharon.

            “★When God said about Shabbat, He said “this is a sign אות between me and you”
            אות
            also means LETTER
            The First letter א
            The last letter ת
            Yeshua is the WORD (Letter) of God made in flesh (John1:14) and also the Alpha ( the First Letter of Greek) and Omega (the last letter) = אות”

            You stated earlier” I decided to put myself in the shoes of a Jew because that is what the New Testament commands!” , and again “Yeshua meant put the Old cloth (Jewish lens) on the new garment (Gospels)!” .
            Forgive if I’m wrong , but it seems that you are benchmarking the Gospels /NT as the words of truth and view the Jewish Bible as a means to corroborate or confirm the NT message.

            The Jewish lens or worldview is based on the Torah , the benchmark is the Torah .

            “Did any follower of Yeshua for the past 2000 years eat the real flesh or drink the blood of him?”

            Yes , if you include Catholicism as a legitimate Christian sect .I come from a Catholic background . Catholics believe that the bread and wine in Mass is transformed to the literal body and blood of Christ. This is called the Doctrine of Transubstantiation .Refer Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation

            “can you find any NT verse that proves Yeshua always thought himself as God?”
            1. Jesus called out the 12 apostles, but he is not among them -Matthew 10:2,Luke 6:13 -16 -in the fashion of how God formed His people by setting up the 12 tribes of Israel.
            2. “The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath” -Mark 2:27-28,Matthew 12:8,Luke 6:5
            3. Jesus’s repeated references to himself as the “Son of Man” –reference to Daniel 7
            4. Jesus forgives and heals a paralyzed man –Mark 2:5-7,Matthew 5:20-21 –
            Only G-d can forgive sins.
            5. Demons declaring that Jesus is the “Son of the Most High God”-Mark 5:6,
            Luke 4:34,41
            6. Simon Peter’s declaration of Jesus as the “Messiah, the Son of the Living God”-Matthew 16:17-18,Luke 9-20
            7. ‘No one knows the Son except the Father , and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him” (Matthew 11:27)
            8. ‘Come to me , all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me , for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30)

            This is not an exhaustive list . You may refer to video links below for further details.
            Do take note that videos (1) and (2) are as a response to muslim polemics, which are similar and I hope can answer your question.

            1.Summary of the Deity of Christ in Mark by James White

            2. Where Did Jesus Say “I Am God, Worship Me”? (David Wood)

            3. Did Jesus Really Claim to be God?#Apologetics

            Thank you.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hello Alan

          My time is running out, so bare with me. Firstly the best way to tackle this is to get some basic foundations laid. The first one is the word CHURCH. To define this word we need to see what exactly the church is, and what is meant by the word. I’m starting with this because there are a lot of confused people out there, who with no real fault of there own, are getting confused with Gods overall plan, which is broken down, through history by different dispensations of His salvation plan. To add to that we also see different covenants. Covenants made at different times to different people.
          I’m digressing already!!!

          Q 1.The Church, what is the church?
          A. 1 Colossians v18.

          Q2. What is the Church comprised of?
          A2. 2 Ephesians v11_16 with Eph CH 3 v6 making a very important point!!

          Q 3.How does one gain entry into this body?
          A4. 1 Corinthians CH 12 v13.
          Acts CH 1. V5
          Acts CH 11 v 15_16
          Acts CH 2.

          Q4 When did the church begin?
          A1. Acts CH 2.

          Other texts to note;
          Acts CH 15 v 14
          Romans CH 11 v 11_15 and 17_24/ 25_27
          John CH 4 v22
          Matthew CH 16 v 18
          Eph CH 1 v19_20 and CH 4 v 7_12

          So I hope this has given you something to look at?
          The reason I’ve done this, is to hopefully show what is meant by the word church, and who belongs and who doesn’t.
          Thanks.
          PS If there’s any typos please let me know ASAP.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            The bottom line is that one belongs to the Church if one believes in salvation from spiritual death through Jesus. And this is the definition of a believer. If I am wrong, please correct me.
            And only a believer can choose between good and evil. Non-believers are incapable of good since everything they do is done for ulterior motives (i.e. it comes from their ego which is the flesh which is ruled by satan). Again, if I’ve misunderstood you please correct me.

          • 1. The body of Messiah is the church. The flesh of Yeshua is made of the Logos the word of God (Tanach). The word Church- Ecclesia – means the “called out ones” The Ecclesiastes is the caller’s message to the called out ones (Israelites). Stephen called the ancient Israelites “Wilderness Church”(Acts7:38); When Yeshua said “i will build my church upon this rock, He meant, i believe, he will build church upon his ★CALLING★ of Shimeon into Petra. God’ s CALLING of Jews is Irrevocable!!( Romans 11:29)

            2. Gentile Christians must be very careful in interpretating of Ephesians 2:11-16. We gentiles were not even considered as the recipients of the grace of the Jewish Messiah (Don’t forget when Yeshua said to the gentile woman “i was not sent to other place except to the lost house of ISRAEL… It is not right to take the children`s bread and toss it to their dogs.” (Matthew 15:24,26) Why most Christians ADD the doctrine- “FAITH IN” Christ in Ephesians 2:13 &15? The text says not that we became one new man by “our faith in” Christ; No! It says we became one new man in CHRIST!! In other words, we became One New Man in his faith, his obedience, and because of what ★he★ has done for us, not because of how ★we★ believed in him!
            How dare you try to graft the roots into the gentile branch? You need to be humble because you were grafted into the root- the anointed ones of Israel.

            Church began Acts CH.2 ?
            All members were Jews and Jewish diaspora!! The pentecost is how the Spirit of God empowered the existing church, not the birth of church!!
            Acts 2:39 says ” The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will ★CALL★”

      • Eleazar says:

        “The Holy Spirit, being God cannot sin.”

        Well, thanks for teaching me that! You think that when John wrote the following, he was talking about whether the holy spirit can sin or not?

        The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ”

        Not a single version of the Christian scriptures capitalizes “he” in “he cannot sin because he is born of God”. This bizarre doctrine is yours alone.

        1Cor 12:13 “For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”

        “1 Corinthians 12 does not even address sin. It is about unity as a Christian organization, by the spirit and by the gifts the spirit endows “believers’ with for the purpose of “building up the church”.

        Isaiah43:15- I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.

        Um, okay.

        C’mon, admit it. You are making this up as you go and grabbing random verses.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hello Alan
          Just to clarify my point on good and evil.
          Believer’s (Christian) who have baptized in Him, The Holy Spirit, can and do sin. They now have the ability to serve one or the other, or of course both, at times. They of course should only serve one, but the flesh being weak causes the conflict. This can be seen in Paul for example, reminding the church at Corinth not to do the things unfitting for a believer, and he writes about his own failings.
          Non Christians, non believers can only serve the flesh, because there is no indwelling Holy Spirit.
          But that’s not to say a non believer cant still do good deeds and be a moral person, of course they can. This morality of good should be in all humans, alas its not.
          But the Bible is very clear that salvation is based on Gods grace through Faith plus nothing. At this point of Gods salvation plan we, the human race are in the dispensation of Grace, not the Law. So only faith in Christ and His works of the Death atonement, can one receive redemption. This act is NOT dependable on how good or bad one is, but based purely on the merit of Faith in Christ by Gods grace.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Gean Guk jeon

            When Jesus said ” I will build my Church” He was speaking in the future tense. He never said Im adding to it. The church didn’t even exist during the Gospel period. To have the Church as a functional body, one needed His death, burial, resurrection, Glorification, Ascension and the out pouring of The Holy Spirit, Spirit Baptism, which in turn gave Spiritual gifts.
            Non of these were present pre Death. There is no mention of the Church in the Hebrew Tanach.
            The problem with your view is that it gives root to replacement theology, which in turn nurtures the idea that ethnic Israel doesn’t have no part in Gods prophetic plan.
            PS
            The rock that Jesus spoke about was the confession of Peter,
            ‘That you are the living Son Of The Living God”
            Its on that confession that the Church is established. A denial of His Deity is a lack of foundation, ie no faith.

          • Brother Paul, you are right, Yeshua said that He WOULD build his church in future tense. But i don’t think it teaches us that there was no church existing at all. Look carefully the word “BUILD”- “oikodomeou”= Oikos (house)+ doma (housetop). It is not “Laying the foundation and start building up a brand new house,” NO. IT is “ADDING and Renovating UPON the already existing house!” Yeshua would build up= edify= the already existing church = Jews, the called out ones of God of Israel, WHO IS THE ROCK! That is why the NT often use the word “oikodomeou” to mean “EDIFY”

            For example, Acts 9:31 says that The “Already existing” church of Judea, Galilee, and Samaria was built UP= edified= strengthened by the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:20 “It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building (oikodomeou) on someone else’s foundation.” –> Paul would build and start a brand new church or build and edify the already existing church by preaching the gospel ? the Latter!

            If you oppose the replacement theology, I am very glad because it is not what the BIBLE says.

            The Rock Yeshua spoke about was the JUDAISM, the Tanackh, and the Jewish People, all of these were possible and meaningful because of God’s irresistable and irrevocable CALLING and exclusive Revealation of Himself. Isn’t that why the soverign revelation of God toward peter’s confession is MORE EMPHASIZED in Mt.16:17?

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            If a Christian can sin then what does that passage in the NT mean that says a Christian cannot sin?

            If a non-believer can only serve the flesh (i.e. satan) then how is it possible they can also do good and be moral (i.e. be good)?

            If it was possible before Jesus to get eternal life, why is it impossible post-Jesus without Jesus?

          • RT says:

            Alan, I think that Christian will say that the motives of the non-believers are never 100% right. That justifies them to say that even if they are doing good, their motive is still not right with G-d. The only problem is, nobody (even Christians) has 100% right motive all the times… If you go in that level (the heart), Christians are sinning all the times, and anybody that sin all the time is not saved.

          • Alan says:

            Hi RT! I’m glad you’re still around!
            GGJ is saying that post-Jesus, it’s impossible to do and be good without Jesus. Paul Summers disagrees and says that it is possible to do and be good post-Jesus without Jesus but paradoxically it’s not possible to choose good over evil because one can only serve the flesh without Jesus. You’re explanation of Paul Summers is that he would say that “good” depends on what one’s motive is. So one can do good and be ethical but in actuality be evil because it’s the flesh that is driving one to do good and be moral without Jesus. So how does Jesus change one’s motives from evil to good according to Christians? Also, this whole idea contradicts what we see in reality because even an atheist can do good and be moral for its own sake and not purely for egotistical reasons.

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            Also, according to Paul Summers a Christian who sins all the time will still be saved. He said this explicitly that being saved has nothing to do with being good or bad but only with faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.

          • ” So one can do good and be ethical but in actuality be evil because it’s the flesh that is driving one to do good and be moral without Jesus.”

            but it is the christian who says that one is born condemned from the get-go. man is SLAVE of sin. man is born in sin. so how does he know that it isn’t his nature/flesh which is driving him to do good?

          • Alan says:

            MH,
            I’d like to see an answer to your question from some Christians. GGJ says that pre-Jesus, people were able to be good and ethical – this seems to contradict the doctrine that from Adam onwards man is completely corrupted spiritually and physically. Both GGJ and PS say (please correct me if I misunderstood either of you) that post-Jesus, people are evil even if they appear to be good until they have accepted Jesus at which point they have been granted the new gift of free-will to choose between good and evil. Your question is how do they know that only by accepting Jesus does one get the free-will to do things from good motives? What is their definition of good motives? And why can’t a non-Christian also have these “good motives?

          • Paul Summers says:

            If a Christian can sin then what does that passage in the NT mean that says a Christian cannot sin?

            If a non-believer can only serve the flesh (i.e. satan) then how is it possible they can also do good and be moral (i.e. be good)?

            If it was possible before Jesus to get eternal life, why is it impossible post-Jesus without Jesus?

            Hello Alan
            I’ve just pasted your comment to help keep some continuity in the threads.

            The sin nature in a non Christian is on its own, as it were. There is no regenerative side. Seeing as Satan corrupted man originally, and then by Imputation, sin is in man, the unbelieved can only serve that side of himself. This doesn’t mean that person is evil or demonic, it just means that they are serving the fallen flesh.

            When I was in the condition of un belief, I could still recognize the difference between right and wrong, good or bad. We all have this ability, some more than others. Some will throw litter on the floor without a care, some would be horrified of doing such.

            The sin nature that you commented on is the sin of unbelief. Its not talking about the ability to sin, because all do and can still sin in some degree.

            Pre Christ is no different to now as far as Gods grace by faith in God is concerned.
            Pre Law, One believed in the God of Creation. The God of Adam, Noah, Job etc.
            Post Law its the same God. Still by Grace, through faith.
            The Law never saved no one. Its was faith in God.

            Today, Post Christ its still God, but the complete fullness of Gods Revelation is through His Son.
            God was revealing His plan over time through the Hebrew texts. Christ came to do what was already written.
            1 Colossians v 26

          • Paul Summers If Psalm 41 is not talking about Jesus as you affirmed then if someone quotes this Psalm in regard to Jesus and claims it as “fulfilled prophecy” – what would you say to this?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            “The sin nature in a non Christian is on its own, as it were.” Can you please explain what you mean by this? Because if it’s on its own, then why do emotionally healthy people have a good basic working moral compass? Many non-believers risk their own lives all the time to save other people and some are even willing to sacrifice themselves to save others. How are acts of sacrifice like this serving the flesh? And they would do it even if nobody would ever know about it, not even the person they rescued.

            You are saying that when that passage says that a Christian cannot sin, it actually means “a Christian cannot do the sin of being a non-believer”? So the passage is saying, “a person who believes in Jesus cannot do the sin of not believing in Jesus”? I don’t get it.

          • Dina says:

            Paul, will you please answer Rabbi B.’s question?

  18. RT says:

    And why Christian do good with bad motive still?
    Fact:
    1) some Christian do bad things. I guess there motive is bad
    2) Some Christians do good. Do they always have good motive? That would be hard to prove and most Christians would say that the motive is not always right.

    1) some non-Christian do bad things. I guess there motive is bad
    2) Some Christians do good. Do they always have good motive? Are their motive worst than Christians? This would be hard to prove…

    Can we say that Christians do more good than other religions? If I compare Jews and Christians, which one does more good deeds with proper motives?

    1) some Christian do bad things. I guess there motive is bad
    2) Some Christians do good. Do they always have good motive? That would be hard to prove and most Christians would say that the motive is not always right.

    Why the New testament show people being just without Jesus? Why was the HS on him without Jesus sacrifice and ascension?

    And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

    • Alan says:

      Thanks RT!
      I would like some Christians to tell us if they believe a person can only be good if they accept Jesus’s sacrifice and how they know that only through this sacrifice they acquire the free-will to be good. And most importantly, what is the difference between an act that looks good but is evil and one that is truly good?

      • RT says:

        What does the Non-testament say? “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

        • Alan says:

          RT,
          When Jesus says “apart from me you can do nothing” what does he mean by “nothing”? Obviously we see that non-believers can do all kinds of good things, for instance they can build hospitals that treat people of every faith and creed from all over the world for free without proselytizing them (e.g. Israeli hospitals). What does he mean by “nothing”?

          • RT says:

            Alan, it really depends of which kind of Christian you ask:

            Catholic: The Catholic Church teaches that unbelievers can live a life of relative virtue without believing in God. Besides God’s grace being necessary to live the moral law perfectly and merit heaven.

            Calvinist, on the other hand believe in the “Total Depravity” of Man. Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

            Commentaries on John 15:5
            Those who abide not in “Christ”, though they may flourish for awhile in outward profession, yet come to nothing. The fire is the fittest place for withered branches; they are good for nothing else.

            Following the metaphor of our “Lord”, it would be just as possible to do any good without him, as for a branch to live, thrive, and bring forth fruit, while cut off from that tree from which it not only derives its juices, but its very existence also.

            Most would agree that non-Christians can do good, but that will not satisfy Jesus as he requires perfection and sinlesness (Of course, unless you accept him as a god).

          • Alan says:

            Thanks RT.
            So “you can do nothing without me” seems to really mean “without me, you and all of your accomplishments (even all the good you’ve done) will ultimately be destroyed and thrown in the trash (the fire)”. The Christian has the same struggle with good and evil as non-Christians – the Holy Spirit doesn’t take away the struggle and it doesn’t even appear to make the struggle easier than the struggle that faithful Jews are engaged in in their service of Hashem.

          • Alan says:

            “any easier than the struggle with good and evil that faithful Jews are engaged in”

            I should have written “any easier than the struggle with good and evil in which faithful Jews and B’nei Noach are engaged in their service of Hashem”.

          • RT says:

            “The fire is the fittest place for withered branches”

            Still bother me to see so many Christian no caring if Jesus send 99% of the world in a lake of fire, and still think he is lovely! Creepy!

          • PAUL SUMMERS says:

            Hi RT
            Sorry to add to your conversation. Just to say You said “a god”, scriptually thats “God”.
            Isaiah ch 44 v 6.

          • Dina says:

            Is anyone besides for me hearing Paul’s deafening silence regarding Rabbi. B.’s question?

          • Alan says:

            Dina,
            Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt since it’s a very hard question. On the one hand, the psalm cannot be speaking about Jesus for at least one reason, i.e. the subject of the psalm admits he sinned. On the other hand, Jesus says in the NT that verse 9 (Christian bible) is a prophecy about himself. So how can one verse taken out of context be a prophecy about Jesus while the rest of the psalm is speaking about a person who sinned?

          • Alan says:

            Psalm 41 is David himself speaking. Verse 5, the subject is David: “As for me, I said: ‘O LORD, be gracious unto me; heal my soul; for I have sinned against Thee.”

            Verse 10 is still David speaking, still the same subject: “Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, who did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.”

            The “I/me” in verse 5 sinned. The “I/me” in verse 10 (verse 9 in the Christian bible) is the same “I/me” as in verse 5. But Jesus says the “I/me” in verse 10 is referring to himself. If the “I/me” in verse 10 is Jesus (as Jesus says it is), then the “I/me” in verse 5 is also Jesus. If the “I/me” in verse 5 is not Jesus, then the “I/me” in verse 10 is also not Jesus, but Jesus has already said verse 10 is him!

          • Dina says:

            Alan, if Paul is a courageous truth seeker he will face up to the question and at least admit that he can’t answer it. Rabbi B. has been trying to get him to answer for years. He keeps ignoring. After all this time I am no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

            Paul had plenty of time to come up with an answer. He keeps ignoring it because he can’t answer it.

          • Alan says:

            Dina,
            Oh, I thought this was a new question. Never mind what I said.

          • Dina says:

            You can be excused for thinking that because Paul hasn’t commented in a long time. Rabbi B. is picking up from last time and possibly the time before that! I think he even asked him this question before he had blocked him from commenting. I honestly don’t know how Paul got back on after being blocked. (You see, CP can get on because he wasn’t blocked, he was just asked to leave.)

          • RT says:

            Paul, scripturally, there is no difference between god and God. Jesus is not God, but a god. Unless you show clear evidence that G-d could change his mind and do the exact opposite of what he said he would not do (Deuteronomy 7)…

            Isa 44:6 — “This is what the Lord says—
            Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
            I am the first and I am the last;
            apart from me there is no God.

            See there is not a second god speaking to a first G-d. There is no trinity and this is totally against the tenet of the Hebrew scriptures. All attempt to prove otherwise will show that you are a polytheist!

          • Alan says:

            Hosea 11:9 – “I will not execute the fierceness of Mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim; FOR I AM GOD AND NOT A MAN, the Holy One in the midst of thee; and I will not come in fury”… and other verses in Tanakh where He says He’s not a man.

      • PAUL SUMMERS says:

        Hello Alan

        This is my third attempt to write. My phone decided to lose Internet connection, right at the very end of my writing and this morning my tablet just decided to turn its self off, in the middle of my response.

        So here goes it!!!!!!!!!!

        The sin nature in a non believer non Christian, can only operate on its own merit. Its unregenerate. It can only serve its self. As sin entered into the human experience via Adams fall, via satan, it can only serve the fallen condition. Spiritually it leaves God out of its function. God cannot function or have a relationship with sin.
        The Believer, Christian now has the capacity to serve God, with the now regenerative part of his soul. The old part still exists, and they co reign next to each other. However you can only serve God in the Spirit, the part now reborn, the part that came to rebirth through faith by Grace, by the belief in the completed works of the blood atonement.

        Christians still physically die, they still get ill, lose hair, joints ache, say and do the wrong things etc etc. This shows that the believer still retains the fallen sin nature.

        Non believers, non Christians are not evil. The non believer isnt evil because they aren’t believers, they just have no faith. They have moral a compass, they of course no the difference between right and wrong. Some non believers will probally show more heart and discernment that a Christian. But salvation isnt based on works, its never ever ever been the mode. Its always always been by Gods Grace through faith in Him. That faith has in time gone from one dispensation to another. Now its still The God Of Israel but through the God Man Jesus, who is the full revelation of the Father.

        The sin that you spoke about isnt the sin nature or the capacity to sin, its talking about the ability for a believer to be not a believer in Christ. A born again believer can never ever ever ever not be unborn or become a non believer. Once he has been regenerate through faith and the old part renewed it cant be undone. Its a once only experience that can never ever be repeated.
        You can never have a un revelation of truth.

        • Alan says:

          Paul,
          I notice that we are talking about two concepts: serving God and salvation.
          I think I know what you mean by salvation – that the soul isn’t destroyed but lives eternally in the kingdom of God.
          But I don’t know what you mean by serving God. You say that only a true Christian can serve God and that it is impossible for a non-Christian to serve God. Can you please explain what serving God means? Please don’t tell me it only means to believe in Jesus because then all you are saying is that “only a Christian can be a Christian”. Is this what you mean when you say that only a Christian can serve God?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            I’ve just read this one.

            First we can only serve God/Christ.
            Salvation is our eternal inherited gift.

            Christian is a word that unfortunately has many negative undertones. ( Bad and negative history) Its a word which of course means being a believer in Christ.
            Jesus said I Am The Way, The Truth And the Life, no one comes to The Father except through me.
            John 14 v6.

            One can only serve God today through Christ. To do that,Him the Holy Spirit must indwell the person.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            When you say that only a true Christian can serve God, what does it mean to serve God? What is this service of God that you speak of? Can you please tell me how to serve God?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan
            I think the best answer I can give you at the moment is to walk accordingly to the New birth. Walking upright by presenting Christ to a fallen world. Be imitators of Christ.

            Something that I should practice more.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I understand the best you can say is that a person has to fake it until they make it but there’s no guarantee they’ll make it? You and everyone you know is at best a doubtful Christian. This seems to me a very very sad and depressing way to live. You deserve better. People deserve better just for being created in the image of God.

          • RT says:

            As per the New Testament, Jesus is the one that really saves you. Some would say that human are actually unable to chose Jesus. If one person has to judge if he is saved by his deeds (even if he is save by faith alone), that makes him goes to a path of despairs. Many are so extreme on their belief only for that reason. It really start with you are saved by faith, but once you are in, you realize quickly that you need the fruits… And of course, how many fruits do you need to show that you are really genuine? And then comes the fear of hell. You mustn’t be one of the tare… you mustn’t doubt Jesus. Now Alan, you understand why so many Christians are unwilling to even listen to you! Any doubts would show that you may not be a true Christian and deserving of hell! Why do you think so few even go to check the counter-missionary arguments. There is nothing logical about Christianity, it is a religions based on fear and reward. Just like the bad husband beating his wife! You better not leave Jesus, cause he will throw you in hell… Of course, it is all covered with a nice icing of “love”! Jesus L.O.V.E.S you,… and you better love him back…

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            I can’t even imagine how overwhelming the fear of hell and spiritual death must be for them, as well as the pain of going through life not having a solid self-identity, always thinking they are perhaps deceiving themselves that they are a real Christian. I can’t even imagine living with this level of self-doubt and constant fear of being destroyed.

        • What does this regenerate part use to have relationship with god? When christian is passing judgement on other christian like “he is an apostate” “he isn’t christ like”
          “he never was christian”

          is christian using his regenerate part to pass judgement or the part which is stained by original sin?

          • kavit, how do you know it is not your polluted and sinful nature which is telling you it is “righteous bloody offering” ? Do you talk to ghost which tells you otherwise? You have a problem kavit, it is possible that your sin nature is sending you a POWERFUL delusion. it is probably fooling you about your faith too. When you doubt the 3 triplets ( how can 1 thing exist AS 3 different things kavit?) , then is doubt in faith another delusion coming from degenerate nature or regenerate nature? Maybe doubt in 3 gods is good thing? Maybe doubt here is from another source?

          • KAVI says:

            Mr. Heathcliff,
            Just to make sure we correctly identify terminology:
            [] First, the words “sin nature” do not exist in the B’rit Chadashah/New Testament…
            [] Second, the words “regenerate nature” do not exist in the BC/NT…

            As such, look to Moses and the Prophets to understand sin and cleansing from sin… there is no other way…none whatsoever…

            For myself, I have no inkling what you mean (or christians mean) by the words “sin nature” or “regenerate nature” outside of the teaching of Tanakh…

            So, why do you think people sin?

            How do you read Tanakh?

            ________________________

        • KAVI says:

          Alan,
          The Messianic believes “service” to G-d is through the offering of righteous sacrifices–

          But what does G-d consider a “righteous” sacrifice?

          Traditional Judaism says one way and the Messianic says another…

          To explore some of this difference, allow me to briefly relay my thoughts on Yom Kippur…

          _________________________
          Yom Kippur according to traditional Judaism:
          [] A Jew who has properly repented of sin, prayed, and does mitzvah “hopes” that he/she is sealed into the Book of Life for 1-year…
          [] However, what happens to these hopeful “righteous” ones if they sin 1-second after purportedly being “sealed”?
          [] Moses never wrote that repentance, prayer, or mitzvah takes away sin…never.

          Conclusion: How can someone serve G-d righteously when they themselves are not righteous according to His Law?

          _________________________
          Yom Kippur to a Messianic…
          [] L-RD Yeshua descended from Heaven to surrender up His sinless life on behalf of mankind– all in order to make an eternal Yom Kippur that stands forever.
          [] To receive G-d’s cleansing salvation of the soul, a man/woman has Faith that Yeshua’s Yom Kippur atoning sacrifice satisfies G-d’s judgment against his/her sins.
          [] Rooted in Tanakh, the L-RD cannot impute sin to those He made righteous by Faith in Him and His redemption as accomplished through His Messiah. [Psalm 32:2 and Habbakuk 2:4]

          Conclusion: When an adopted child of G-d brings his/her righteous offerings of service to Him, how can He not accept those offerings since their soul has been made perfectly righteous according to the Law by Faith?

          _______________________
          Q: What then is a “righteous offering” to a Messianic?

          A: Not all service or deeds done by a Messianic are “righteous” [not even supposedly “good” ones, for G-d looks upon the inward man]…only those that originate from the cleansed soul will be rewarded in the world to come…

          The point?
          [] For all whose souls are “dead” [not cleansed from sin]– no deed can ever be righteous in His sight– no matter how genuine or fervent or “good”…
          [] For all whose souls are “alive” [cleansed from sin]– at least some deeds can and will be found righteous in His sight…

          Happy is the man unto whom the L-RD counteth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile. [Psalm 32:2]

          “I delight to do Thy will, O my G-d; Yea, Thy law is in my inmost parts.” [Psalm 40]

          _________________________

          • Alan says:

            Kavi,
            What I hear you saying is that you think Hashem – the same one that shows up in the Hebrew scriptures – hates and rejects people’s turning from sin (teshuva) without the taking the life of a sinless living being, i.e. according to the Tanakh, teshuva doesn’t work, simply abandoning one’s evil thoughts and deeds and asking Hashem for forgiveness doesn’t save a person or nation from Hashem’s burning destructive hate. In order to escape Hashem’s hatred and destruction, Hashem requires a human sacrifice and for us to have faith that this human sacrifice will make Hashem stop threatening us with eternal destruction. Without the belief in this human sacrifice we are hated and doomed. You are also saying that according to Hashem in Tanakh, one cannot be righteous until one’s soul has been cleansed of sin through the killing of a living creature. Without taking a life as a sacrifice, one is not righteous and is slated for destruction by Hashem.

            Am I understanding you correctly?

          • Dina says:

            Kavi wrote:

            “Moses never wrote that repentance, prayer, or mitzvah takes away sin…never.”

            Ezekiel says: “And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live” (18:21-22).

            Something to think about, eh?

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            In the continental U.S., we recently observed Memorial Day to remember the people who died while serving in the country’s armed forces…

            Let me ask you– If someone you love goes into war and gives up his/her life to save the lives of the platoon, is that a “human sacrifice”?

            _____________________________

          • Alan says:

            “In the continental U.S., we recently observed Memorial Day to remember the people who died while serving in the country’s armed forces…

            Let me ask you– If someone you love goes into war and gives up his/her life to save the lives of the platoon, is that a “human sacrifice”?”

            This soldier sacrificed his life because he felt that the lives of his comrades were more important than his own life. How is this an analogy to what I wrote about how Hashem treats penitents in Tanakh?

          • Dina says:

            Alan, I disagree. When a soldier risks his life to save others, he hopes he will come out of it alive. He doesn’t think his life is worth less. If he can get the job done without getting killed, no one will be happier about it than he.

            Human sacrifice in religion is an entirely different matter for more reasons than I have time to elaborate on right now.

          • Alan says:

            “Alan, I disagree. When a soldier risks his life to save others, he hopes he will come out of it alive. He doesn’t think his life is worth less. If he can get the job done without getting killed, no one will be happier about it than he.”

            Dina, I agree with you. I just thought Kavi was talking about the specific type of sacrifice of the soldier falling on a grenade to save his comrades, for example.

          • KAVI says:

            Dina,
            I said, “Moses never wrote that repentance, prayer, or mitzvah takes away sin…never.”

            …and you bring up Ezekiel??

            Maybe you don’t understand what Ezekiel meant…

            ______________

            So, I will repeat, “Moses never wrote that repentance, prayer, or mitzvah takes away sin…never.”

            ______________

          • Alan says:

            “So, I will repeat, “Moses never wrote that repentance, prayer, or mitzvah takes away sin…never.””

            Kavi,
            Deuteronomy ch. 30 – no killing of living beings required to reconcile with Hashem –

            1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

          • Alan says:

            9 And the LORD thy God will make thee over-abundant in all the work of thy hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good; for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as He rejoiced over thy fathers; 10 if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. {S} 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

          • Kavi Of-course Moses wrote about it – Deuteronomy 30:1-10 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Dina says:

            And do you disagree with Ezekiel, Kavi?

            Would you consider the possibility that YOU don’t understand what Ezekiel meant? Or do you buy the convenient lie of your so-called New Testament that the Jews don’t understand their own Scriptures?

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            In Deuteronomy 30 we see written, “and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day.” and “…if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

            The commands that Moses wrote did not include sacrifices?
            _____________________

          • Alan says:

            The commands did include sacrifices, but sacrifices do not apply in exile and in this passage the people are in exile, they do teshuva in exile and Hashem accepts their teshuva and has mercy and love and joy from them and saves them. The sacrifices come after the teshuva was accepted and after Hashem had mercy on them. This also shows there will be sacrifices after Moshiach comes, something you also don’t accept.

          • Dina says:

            The commands that Moses wrote forbade human sacrifice.

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            Your wrote…”What I hear you saying is that you think Hashem – the same one that shows up in the Hebrew scriptures – hates and rejects people’s turning from sin (teshuva) without the taking the life of a sinless living being”

            No– What I am trying to say is that true teshuva is repenting from a false belief system [i.e., the one encapsulated in traditional Judaism’s concept of Yom Kippur]…to one that Moses and the Prophets attest to [i.e., a reliable, eternal Yom Kippur sacrifice].

            The concept of sacrifice is important…which is why the Memorial Day analogy may help clarify the “why”– Because G-d loved mankind, He sent His Son into the war to give up His sinless life to rescue people from sin [John 3].

            Doesn’t Tanakh teach G-d loves mankind and really hates sin?

            _______________

            BTW> I must go to work now…but the conceptual differences I wrote about regarding Yom Kippur are fundamental.

            _______________

          • Alan says:

            “No– What I am trying to say is that true teshuva is repenting from a false belief system [i.e., the one encapsulated in traditional Judaism’s concept of Yom Kippur]…to one that Moses and the Prophets attest to [i.e., a reliable, eternal Yom Kippur sacrifice].”

            You’re saying that according to Tanakh, TRUE teshuva is repenting from false beliefs? That’s it?

          • Kavi Christianity is the belief system repudiated by the Torah and the prophets – 1000 times over read the article – “1000 Verses” 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Kavit, why are you likening your god to a soldier? your god had to do a RITUALISTIC human sacrifice to cool himself down. Without this opening of flesh and nailing of it, this god is very pissed. he created humans and then boxes himself with two choices.

            Kill
            Or get killed

            either burn ppl in hell or allow adam to have children to spread sin and then come down and plan his own ritual killing because he is unable to forgive.

            And here is the strange bit, if you don’t believe he came back to life, he will punish you in hell worse than he punished himself

          • Kavit, in the commands of Moses, where did Moses dream about ritually killing yhwh?

          • because god loved mankind? if he loved you so much why he left you will roman torture instrument ? Why he left you with human body which you have to eat and drink in your imagination? you have been left with a rotted copy /bloody go between just to have a chat with your god. I don’t tell children to cut neck of chicken before I chat with them, am I more friendly than your god kavit? I don’t tell human’s they are dirty, filthy, scum, “born in sin”
            am I more friendly than your “god of love” ?

          • hey kavit, I thought people remember the way a person lived in Memorial Day, not the brutal way they died. Why are you carrying Roman instrument of torture and death?

          • RT says:

            Yes, god Jesus is love, and you better believe it, if not, is going to toast you well!

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            You write,
            “The commands did include sacrifices, but sacrifices do not apply in exile and in this passage the people are in exile, they do teshuva in exile and Hashem accepts their teshuva and has mercy and love and joy from them and saves them. The sacrifices come after the teshuva was accepted and after Hashem had mercy on them.”

            Just a couple notes:
            [] Where does Moses directly say anywhere that “Return to the L-rd” means repentance, prayer, and mitzvot? Nowhere…it is the Rabbis who commit a greatly flawed eisegesis in their misinterpretation.

            [] And logically speaking, if repentance, prayer, and mitzvot replaced sacrifices– why did Moses waste so many, many words in the Torah about sacrificing living things at all?

            Is the L-RD a man who changes His mind?

            Does G-d speak without purpose?

            Or, more truthfully, the Rabbi’s replaced G-d’s Word with their own human precepts. [per Isaiah 29:13]

            So, no, Moses wrote of Shabbos, feasts, sacrifices, and Yom Kippur with purpose…to direct them toward the Kinsman Redeemer who would come to fulfill eternal redemption…
            __________________

            BTW> Ezekiel says bluntly that once the exiles return, they will be pass under the rod to be judged– and for those He finds rebellious, their end is most unpleasant. [Ezekiel 20]

            As such, how then can one say that “teshuva” brings back the people from exile when,
            [1] G-d says He is the One Who will bring the people back?
            [2] G-d still finds Jews in rebellion to Him?

            _____________________

          • Alan says:

            “[] Where does Moses directly say anywhere that “Return to the L-rd” means repentance, prayer, and mitzvot? Nowhere…it is the Rabbis who commit a greatly flawed eisegesis in their misinterpretation.”

            Read all of Deuteronomy 30 – Moses says directly in this chapter that “return/teshuva” means listening to His voice and listening to His commandments.

            “[] And logically speaking, if repentance, prayer, and mitzvot replaced sacrifices– why did Moses waste so many, many words in the Torah about sacrificing living things at all?”

            The sacrifices are counted among the 613 mitzvot so they can’t literally be replaced by any other mitzvot. When there is no Temple, the sacrifices are temporarily suspended. There are other mitzvot besides sacrifices that are also temporarily suspended until the 3rd Temple is built. Prayer is not equivalent to sacrifices, neither are teshuva and other mitzvot. They can’t literally replace sacrifices. Prayer is just the closest thing to sacrifices that we have until the 3rd Temple is built. And even when sacrifices will resume, we will still have the commandments to pray and do teshuva.

            “BTW> Ezekiel says bluntly that once the exiles return, they will be pass under the rod to be judged– and for those He finds rebellious, their end is most unpleasant. [Ezekiel 20]”

            Not 100% of the Jewish people have to repent in order for Hashem to bring the final redemption. This passage says that there will be some rebels who will be separated from those who are redeemed.

            “As such, how then can one say that “teshuva” brings back the people from exile when,”
            How can one say that teshuva “brings” the redemption? Hashem says so all over Tanakh! “Brings” in the sense of “catalyzes the redemption”, it makes us worthy of the redemption.

            “[1] G-d says He is the One Who will bring the people back?”
            Hashem tells us all over Tanakh, that He wants us to initiate the teshuva process and then He will finish it. He wants us to circumcise our hearts to the best of our ability and then He will help us do it and He will ultimately finish it on His own. This is all over Tanakh very explicitly.

            [2] G-d still finds Jews in rebellion to Him?
            As I said above, not 100% of the people have to be worthy of redemption in order for Hashem to bring the final redemption.

          • Kavi Moses says to return to the Lord according to all that he commanded us – he didn’t command us about sacrifices in exile – and no one said that anything replaces sacrifices in the sense that they become redundant – read “Contra Brown” 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  19. PAUL SUMMERS says:

    Hello Alan
    I’ll write this as a add on.
    Some people claim that they were once Christians. Now by some chance, they say after reading the Bible again, they see there mistake and take up some other faith, and denounce Christianity.

    Absolutely no way were those people ever born again believers in Christ Yeshua. They might have attended church, and was brought up in a christian home. However scriptually and postionley they were never baptised, spiritually in the body of the Messiah.

    A. Jonh 1 ch 2 v19
    B. I was personally brougt up in a church environment, but it wasn’t until I was in the world, sinning, at the age of 36 did I then see the truth about Christ.

    Of course my experience proves nothing to you, we can only use the word of God as truth.

    • Alan says:

      Paul,
      If I’m understanding you right, that passage that says that a Christian does not and cannot sin only means “a Christian is not and cannot not be a Christian” or “he who believes in Jesus does not and cannot not believe in Jesus”. That’s what that passage means.

      I am sure you have met people that would swear to God that they once believed in Jesus as much as you do. Are you saying that a person doesn’t have free-will to believe in Jesus, that even if a person wants to believe in Jesus it’s possible that God will not permit this person to do so or God might trick this person into thinking he believes but God is really refusing to let him believe?

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi Alan
        Not sure How you might think that??
        I’m confused now.
        Its not yes and no at the same time.

        Of course every person has free will, to believe or not to believe. People are not saved by free will but by Faith. They exercise free will, as all can. But one can exercise that free will and refuse what they hear. A Calvinist would go one step further and say no faith required but Gods will only.

        2 Peter CH 3 v8.

        God doesn’t play tricks.

        There are a lot of False Gospel messages out there, and receiving a counterfeit message is extremely common, especially within prosperity teaching, the Toronto blessing etc etc.

        These are wolves in sheep’s clothing, false teachers who have come into the flock. Of course God is not within these “churches” only Satan.The god of this world.
        2 Corinthians CH 4 v4
        Mathew CH 7 v15.

        • Alan says:

          I still don’t get it. You say that a true Christian can never stop being a true Christian. But we see people who were at one time as true a Christian as you are and yet are no longer. Since you are not a prophet and do not know what is going on in other people’s hearts, how can you be so sure that such people were never really true Christians when they swear they were and there are witnesses who will swear that they lived and behaved as true Christians? This would mean that there is no such thing as a person who has a status as an established true Christian because everyone is suspect of possibly being a fake.

          • RT says:

            Hi Alan, as per the new testament, you can only be a true Christian if you remain a Christian. This would be the predominant view. In my case, even if I prayed to Jesus and worshipped Jesus as God, the Holy Spirit never was on me, because the HS would never leave a true believer. So, I was not genuine. If Paul would listen to our comments and realize something is wrong with his faith, even if he gave all his money to Jesus and spent years doing missionary work, he would have still deceived himself.

            The other view is that once you professed Jesus, you are saved forever. In my case, some people think I am still a confused Christian, but will soon or later realize my mistake. In worst case scenario, I would be rebuked by Jesus when I die for my lack of belief in Jesus.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            Its the wording, true christian, that’s possibly not helping. There is no perfect, holy Christian here on earth, nor has there been. Even the writers of the NT were still capable of sins and were generally still in the condition of sin. But a big but, positionally in Christ there were purchased by His blood and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

            I understand that you can’t go a round judging and proclaiming ‘you are not a true christian “. However there is a basis, principle, and true scriptural truth to see and guide one. Most people are not bothered in the subject.
            Jesus did teach that tares( unbelievers) and wheat ( born again believers) will grow up side by side.

            Mathew CH 13 v 23_30
            CH 7 v 21.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I know you are not saying that there are perfect Christians here on earth. I’m only asking how can you really know yourself that you are a Christian since it is possible that even in the last moment of one’s life, one who was ostensibly a Christian their whole life might reject Jesus? Perhaps some of the Christians you know and love are fakes and even today they are not Christians?

            Basically I’m asking one question – can you say of yourself or of any other Christian you know they are definitely a Christian? I don’t think you can say this.

          • PAUL SUMMERS says:

            Hello Alan
            If and when sone body who confesses that they aren’t actually saved, the timing of the confession is irrelevant. There either are, or not saved.

            Of course many would, do, count themselves saved, a Christian, follower of Christ.They probally do go to the grave confessing such. But unless they have spiritually been saved at one very distinct moment in time, then they have only been fooled, and have sadly fooled themselves, resulting in eternal punishment. Mankind cannot be saved by just a little gospel, or any say, any additional false “facts”. Only the very Gospel that is scriptural can save.
            1. Works by a individual do not save.
            2. No special prayer is required.
            3. Confessing Jesus to be, a good Man, to be God, to be a prophet, To be a healer, miracle worker, to be the source of a better life etc etc do not save…… These are all post Acts ch 2.
            4. Going to church, singing hymns, praying, Being raised in a Christian home, do not save.
            5. Confessing sins do not save.
            6 Taking communion does not save.
            7. Paying for indulgences do not save.
            There is probally more……..?????

            I can honestly say that I do personally know individuals, good people who go and are actively engaged in Church life who are not saved.

            People go to Church for many reasons, a great number are serving themselves. It can be socially attractive, a sense of belonging, loneliness, habitual, self pride amongst the community, greed, sexual groomimg, the list is endless. I listen to there testimony about why they go to church, a great number never even mention Christ’s death and redemption. Some will say, ive been a Christian since birth etc.

            You are correct about fakes. Hopefully discernment will answer, guide any questions.

            1 Peter ch 4 v1-8

            2 Timothy ch 4 v1

            Ultimately Jesus Christ will judge.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            But there are still those who have confessed the death and resurrection and who later leave it. There is no way to tell if someone is really saved according to your opinion (i.e. a true Christian cannot stop being a Christian).

            Could you please tell me what service of God consists of? What does it mean to serve God?

          • RT says:

            I am the best example. Through faith and by Jesus blood only, not by work. I believed for 6 years and I am quite sure that I had the same kind of beliefs as you do Paul. I was Calvinist for a while, but went more middle ground on the issue afterward. I used to preach at my congregation who is middle ground and believe in faith alone which produces good work. What happened, I doubted the trinity and finally realized that it could not be… It’s not because I wanted to go back to my previous sins, or that I wanted to deny G-d. It was actually the opposite. When you read that G-d is ONE, you realize that you cannot accept Jesus if the trinity is not true. There was no evidences and I had to leave Jesus behind…

      • PAUL SUMMERS says:

        Hello Alan

        I understand the best you can say is that a person has to fake it until they make it but there’s no guarantee they’ll make it? You and everyone you know is at best a doubtful Christian. This seems to me a very very sad and depressing way to live. You deserve better. People deserve better just for being created in the image

        You say until they make it. I assume you mean heaven? If one was faking it then of course they would be judged accordingly, as a unbeliever.
        It is sad, but a scriptural reality. The sadness is sin, and the rejection of the truth.

        People are as you say, created in the image of God. That image was marred by sin. God did do something to restore man, back to His image. He sent His Son.

        • Alan says:

          Paul,
          What I meant by “fake it” is that according to your opinion you cannot say while you are alive that you are a true Christian so the best you can do is to think and act like a true Christian even if you really aren’t.

          To restore the Image of God in Man -does a person need to serve God to do this? If so, what does this service of God involve?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan
            I never said that I can’t say I’m a true believer.

            Many people will/do live as believers and confess their faith, but that’s not guaranteeing their final resting place.

            I appreciate that ultimately looking at people from the outside and looking into them isn’t a 100% assurance of who they are. But there is a gift of spiritual discernment that can guide one in the right direction on the matter.

            After that, finally God sees the heart, and God can see who is a true believer and who is not.
            The believers names will be written in the Lambs Book Of Life. This book has already been written. From time past, eternity. There are no surprise’s waiting for a Sovereign God.

        • RT says:

          Not that I want to play with semantics here. You are basically saying that your right understanding of who G-d is will save you, or not. If Jews don’t accept Jesus as messiah, they have scriptural arguments for that. By refusing to accept your messiah, due to scriptural conflict, they reject the “true” god. So basically, because they want to follow G-d, they refuse to acknowledge your god, and are condemn in hell forever and ever because of that? That does not make much sense. For example, many Jews preferred to kiss the sword, but that very action of giving their life to HaShem, was worst than accepting the cross, and by doing that, even if they though they acted right before G-d, your god sent them to hell… Do I make myself clear?

  20. Concerned Reader says:

    “Still bother me to see so many Christian no caring if Jesus send 99% of the world in a lake of fire, and still think he is lovely! Creepy!”

    RT, respectfully I don’t see the logic with calling Christians out on their notions of divine punishment as being cruel, creepy, or unbending when Hashem himself, in the Jewish Bible literally floods the entire world and all of its inhabitants save for 1 family and two of every animal. Literally 99.99% of everything alive died in the flood by drowning!

    Its also true that the whole problem of humans and sinning was not solved by G-d’s flooding of the world, so why do it? Creepy right?

    G-d in the Jewish bible commanded genocide to be carried out against people, and lest we forget, Adam and Eve’s personal sin guarantees that even the most righteous people ( the Talmud mentions 4 in Shabbat 55b,) die at least once, solely because of the exchange between the 1st people and the Snake.)

    Not to mention the Talmud’s description of a heretic burning in #2

    IE we all die, even though we are not Adam, and we did not eat fruit off of a forbidden tree! Creepy right?

    It is true that the Zohar contains the story of Adam meeting with us after death at the cave of Machpelah, whereupon he informs people that they die due to their own sin, but this parable doesn’t change what the Talmud says, and it doesn’t change the creep factor of the flood story.

    Gehinom was also considered very real to Jews in Jesus’ time, and sure it may be punishment for a limited duration of up to 12 months, but it still isn’t any less creepy.

    I find it a little unnerving when I hear people talk about how cruel Christian notions are while they forget things that the Torah and Jewish literature itself clearly say about divine punishment and why it exists.

    I’ve heard several Jewish people I know say “Jews dont believe in hell, or sin, or etc.” just because they are trying to draw distinctions with Christianity, when in fact, Christians got a lot of their notions from literature contemporary with themselves and other Jews.

    I’ve also seen people get upset with Rabbi Mizrahi because of the sources that he brings that talk about horrible punishments, but the point is, he has sources.

    Christian literature itself is not unanimous on notions of hell and punishment.

    For example, in the eastern orthodox Church, “hell” is described as being in G-d’s presence, not in another place, but the souls burn because they don’t want to be with G-d. not because G-d does not want to be with them.

    That version of hell is sort of paralleled by the Talmud speaking about the coming of the Shekinah regenerating the righteous, but burning the wicked.

    • RT says:

      True, but the distinction is clear. Many Christian are looking forward to see those branches been thrown in hell as Matthew Henry commented. Natural disaster like the flood looks cruel, and regardless is hard to fathom. I am not excusing how G-d looks like in the Hebrew Bible. Genocides in the Hebrew Bible seem wrong too… I don’t know Jews saying “I cannot wait to see all those Christians/Muslims go in hell, even less writing that in their Commentaries of the Hebrew Bible.

      • Alan says:

        RT,
        You’re right. Tanakh and rabbinic literature are not occupied with throwing bodies and souls in everlasting fires or with eternal extinction of souls (eternal extinction is discussed but it’s only a last resort and reserved for supremely bad people).

        • Dina says:

          Here’s food for thought:

          If the good guys (people who are basically good but don’t believe in Jesus) go to hell, then where do the bad guys (like Hitler) go?

          Hitler and his innocent victims go to the same place?

          • RT says:

            Yep. At least Judaism does not use Hell as a tool to convince people of G-d. In my opinion, it is a selfish reason to accept Jesus, but it is the only mean used by the Church to convince people to join their group. 1) you are a sinner. 2) all sinners go to hell. 3) If you don’t accept Jesus, you will go there! 4) Repeat step one until unbeliever joins to group 5) New believer repeats steps one with someone else…

          • PAUL SUMMERS says:

            Hi Dina
            You are only viewing this from mans perspective and not through Gods. The point of salvation even from the Jewish Tanach is by Gods Grace through faith. It has never been any thing else.
            There aren’t any “Innocent victims” as you claim, because God has revealed Himself, no matter when in History, to man. Either by creation, nature, consciousness, The Texts, science, Chtist etc. God has always in some form being there to be seen.

            Man, created in the Image of God, has free will, by faith to believe. If that is rejected then the “innocent” become culpable.

          • Dina says:

            So Paul, Hitler and his victims (men, women, children, and babies) deserve the same fate?

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            “The point of salvation even from the Jewish Tanach is by Gods Grace through faith.”

            This is just not true. Since Adam and Eve to Abraham to today, it is faith combined with not hurting people and doing justice that causes us to find favor with God. Never faith alone. We can prove this to you from Tanakh.

          • RT says:

            Can you conclude Jesus by looking at a tree? You are confused Paul. You may come to the conclusion of a creator, but the who it was… And in and out of itself, if we conclude there is a creator based on the evidence, we can also conclude that Jesus had a mother and was not G-d…

        • Concerned Reader says:

          Alan, the literature isnt preoccupied with it, true, but the same notions are present in the sources.

          If we say to Christians that their notions are absurd when its in Jewish sources too, it seems like a pot calling the kettle black.

          Sure heretics burning in feces or perpetual anguish is reserved for the “worst sinners,” but there are ethical concerns on the same level.

          You said flood victims only lost their bodily life. Ok, so this life isnt good enough to have a full life?

          What about debates in Talmud about whether a noachide gets ressurection?

          Sure the sources say gentiles have a share in Olam Haba (as a soul,) but there is nothing about them raising from the dead in bodies, (because they didnt keep as many mitzvot.) Thats why its debated.

          So, according to these debates David (who killed and committed adultery in action) will be ressurected bodily, but maybe a noachide who hasn’t done those things wont be ressurected bodily, but only exist as a soul because he wasnt observant?

          This is To say nothing of punishments that noachides are subject to if they transgress 1 of their laws.

          Saying only the body is killed is a copout of sorts to the moral implications of the stories in general.

          Some Christians may love the idea of revenge on sinners, but I promise you that nobody in my family was that way, and I promise that many Christians have different views of hell.

          When a Christian says “nobody is innocent” and we get upset, does it not bother anyone that Jewish sources state the same exact thing when explaining exactly why humans die?

          The Talmud itself says if you didnt sin you would not die.

          In fact, all the passages in the NT that mention burning and eternal anguish in the NT are warnings issued to believers in Jesus 1st always telling them not to br arrogant.

          “Dont eat and drink unworthily, or you eat and drink damnation on yourselves ” (Paul in reference to a bad beluever pataking in the Eucharist.)

          According to the Nach and Judaism, we all die because of Adam.

          The 4 righteous men the Talmud mentions only died due to Adam’s sin and not their own. Is that Just? The point here is that this is a theological problem in both communities that we both share

          • Alan says:

            CR,
            I don’t believe in eternal torture not even for the worst of the worst. I don’t take “burning in feces” literally, not at all! There’s nothing compelling us to take it literally. I wrote before that the Torah cherishes physical life. Hashem cherishes physical life because we see it in the halacha. We don’t know which Jews or Gentiles will be resurrected. It seems to me that a Gentile who lived a moral bodily life as well as an ethical life is more fit to be resurrected than a Jew who didn’t. Judaism says that we are all born with a pure and innocent soul – no guilt from Adam. Our nature is to die but not because we are born guilty. Even if we didn’t sin, we would still die. But it’s impossible not to sin. I don’t know what the talmud means that several people never sinned. I don’t take it literally. As for Noahides getting capital punishment for transgressing one of the universal laws, I don’t have an answer. I just know this is something that has never been put into practice as far as I know. Also, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they must get capital punishment. I don’t know any Torah authorities who would say that if we had a Sanhedrin today this would be the halacha.

          • Alan says:

            CR,
            David did not commit adultery because Batsheva was not married at the time, she was a divorcee as was every Jewish soldier’s wife at the time. The practice of the Jewish people from ancient times was for soldiers to divorce their wives before going off to war. And if Uriah was interested in his wife he would have listened to King David’s command to him to rejoin Batsheva as husband and wife but he made an excuse and refused to rejoin her.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi,
          Yes please do, I would like to see the view which you speak of.

          • Alan says:

            Paul Summers,

            Can you please explain to me what it means to serve God? Serving God is an expression and a commandment repeated over and over again throughout scripture.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan

            God? Serving God is an expression and a commandment repeated over and over again throughout scripture.

            1 Peter CH 4.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,

            “God? Serving God is an expression and a commandment repeated over and over again throughout scripture.

            1 Peter CH 4.”

            I read it twice. It says serving God means: 1). to keep our animal lusts in check, 2). to pray properly 3). to do acts of kindness for each other, 4). to do 1-3 for the sake of God even when we suffer and are persecuted for our beliefs.

            Paul, you claim that only a Christian can do these things. Are you really unaware that there are non-Christians in the world that do these things all the time?

      • PAUL SUMMERS says:

        If Paul would listen to our comments and realize something is wrong with his faith, even if he gave all his money to Jesus and spent years doing missionary work, he would have still deceived himself.

        Hello RT

        Not sure if your comment was directed at me??? If it was then I think you need to re read my viewpoints on Salvation. If it was, then you are grossly mistaken.

        If it wasnt me, then please accept my apologies.

        • RT says:

          What I am saying is, if you believe that Jesus was atonement for your sins, and that you accepted that by faith and faith alone. And if you had the fruits of a Christians, like given all your money to the poor and missionary work. Even if you would never believe that you could ever reach heaven with your own merit. Then one day, you would realize that Jesus was not the messiah, than that would prove that you never believed in the first place… Am I wrong or right?

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            You are describing yourself. You are telling the truth when you say that you were a sincere and genuine Christian. I believe 100% that you were sincere when you were baptized in the holy spirit, etc… You are a sincere person now. I believe you were a sincere person then. Paul Summers cannot permit himself to believe you. He HAS to believe that you were a wicked deceitful person INCAPABLE OF BEING GENUINE AND SINCERE.

          • RT says:

            Of course Alan, the New testament say that I am an anti-Christ and that I am trying to deceive Paul Summers. He won’t consider that I could be genuine and that the only reason why I left Christianity was for the fact that it contradicted the Hebrew Bible. In his opinion, I am trying to deceive him… I could not be genuine and really believe that the new testament was a lie, or I am wicked and want to go back to my sins or I am an anti-Christ.

            1 John 2: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

            20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[e] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

            24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

            26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

          • Alan says:

            Where in Tanakh do Christians get the ideas that Man is:
            1. Damned and destined for hell and spiritual extinction from birth
            2. Unfit to be accepted by God unless he is sinless
            3. Cannot be accepted by God without an atoning blood sacrifice

            Most of the people who comment on this blog know that both the Tanakh and those who know the Tanakh the best (the Jewish people) say as clear as day the exact opposite of these 3 ideas. So how can a person read ALL of Tanakh and still believe that these ideas are found in Tanakh?

          • RT says:

            Alan, those are all taken out of context, mostly by Paul in a way or another.

            Where in Tanakh do Christians get the ideas that Man is:
            1. Damned and destined for hell and spiritual extinction from birth
            Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
            And in sin my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5) (taken out of context)

            2. Unfit to be accepted by God unless he is sinless
            The soul who sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:20 (taken out of context)

            They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
            there is no one who does good.
            2The Lord looks down from heaven
            on all mankind
            to see if there are any who understand,
            any who seek God.
            3All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
            there is no one who does good,
            not even one. Psalm 14 (taken out of context)

            3. Cannot be accepted by God without an atoning blood sacrifice
            Ezekiel 18:20 Leviticus 17 (taken out of context)… Understood in conjunction with “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”, found in Leviticus 1239:6, sorry Hebrews 9, but let’s not say it too loud and let’s pretend it’s from the He brews Bible, Ok? 😉

          • Alan says:

            But what about those who have read all of Tanakh? How can they really believe that the NT is fulfilled Torah? How can they believe that Hashem who was consistent in the way he treated Man for thousands of years in Tanakh, all of a sudden around the year 30 CE starts treating Man exactly the opposite – and He doesn’t just start treating Man the opposite way but He tells Man things about Himself and about Man that are the exact opposite of what He told them before?

          • Alan I think that the answer to your question is that they see the Tanach as a mystery book – giving more weight to what they imagine they see between the lines than they do to what the lines actually say – just read Charles Soper’s comments (search for “Charles Soper” or for “Facing Scripture” to find the relevant articles and comments

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • RT says:

            Alan, you have to go back with the principle that the new believer are thought that they have been saved by Jesus and that they cannot deny him, or else he will finish in hell. He is also though that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” and this especially true”er” for the New Testament. If the New Testament say something, this is 100% truth even if it seems to contradict the Hebrew Bible. New Believers are not asked to read the book of Leviticus on the first week. They first read the book of the New Testament, often starting with John and the book of Romans. This is the principle of the Christian belief. Also, you have to understand that Jews are portrayed as harden by G-d, so most Christians don’t even think that the Jews could be right in the first place. So you have the enemies of the gospel, and you have your worldview already in place when you even turn your Bible to the “old” testament. This is of course, the OLD testament, which was fulfilled by Jesus, so if you don’t understand everything, or if something looks contrary to the “New” testament, you have to pray to Jesus to remove that doubt. Voila!

          • Alan says:

            Thank you both!

    • Alan says:

      CR,
      All good questions. I’m not going to get into the question of attempted genocides in Tanakh right now but I just want to make one major distinction between Torah view of punishment and the Christian view. When physical bodies are dispatched in Tanakh it is just the physical bodies not necessarily the souls. In the Flood and the other episodes of death, the Tanakh does not say that their souls were also destroyed.

      • Alan says:

        When I wrote “it is just the physical bodies not necessarily the souls” I didn’t mean to make light of bodies in the slightest. As you know, Judaism cherishes life, both physical and spiritual. I should have just written “it doesn’t necessarily include the souls which outlive the body”.

    • Dina says:

      I think Rabbi Mizrahi is off his rocker and doesn’t speak for a lot of us. Having said that, the main focus of Jews is supposed to be on their behavior in this world and not to obsess about the afterlife, hence the Hebrew Bible’s silence on this. (This is where the rabbi’s scaremongering tactics go wrong.)

      It’s all very well to be selective about Talmudic quotes and ignore everything positive in terms of reward that the Talmud says about righteous pagans and non Jews.

      Actually, it’s not all very well. It’s just not right.

      The Talmud recorded the opinions of all the learned men of the day and included them all, even those we traditionally don’t hold by; thus we can still read the opinions of Beit Shammai even as we don’t follow Shammai. Therefore, to quote the Talmud without keeping this context in mind is blatantly unfair.

      What is important is what most religious Jews believe today compared to what most religious Christians believe today. What anyone believed 2000 years ago is relevant but only to a very small degree.

      • Alan says:

        Dina,
        I agree with everything you wrote. I’m just unsure of what you mean by “righteous pagans”.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Dina, what Jews believed when the Christian text was written is very relevant. Also, the Talmud states that halacha of beit Shammai will be the halacha in Olam Haba, so I dont see that as irrelevant when you are talking about the Christian view on the fate of “sinners” souls after death. Sources in both traditions say some very unnerving things.

        My point is not Rabbi Mizrahi himself, but that he has the sources to back up his off the rocker statements, even today.

        Its easy to say that Jews today dont believe in X Y or Z, but if Jews in the past did, is it a Christian’s fault for believing what he was taught?

        When I was a Christian, I understood Jesus’ exclusive statement of “I am the way, truth, and life, etc.” To mean a person must live his way, his truth, and his life.” Jesus isnt a club, he had a life path that he wanted people to follow. His people have followed his path closer than any gentile, and I want Christian readers to realize that.

        Eastern Orthodox and Catholics believe that a baptized person can have “run the race in vain.”

        In the same way a righteous person (such as the the theif on the cross) was not judged by wearing a Jesus badge, but on his repentance.

  21. Concerned Reader says:

    CR,
    David did not commit adultery because Batsheva was not married at the time, she was a divorcee as was every Jewish soldier’s wife at the time. 

    I understand that this is what the rabbis say. It however doesn’t alter the fact that David had a man killed in order to sleep with his technically “ex wife.”

    As for what you take to be literal or not, the intent is clear. You dont use the words “burning in feces” if you mean to convey sunshine ot roses.”

    If you are entitled to read that horrible sounding stuff in Nach as allegory, why is it worse if Christians do the same in their books? Thats my point.

    Accirding to the plain meaning of the words in the Torah G-d intended man to take from the tree and live forever. So, whether you believe that humans are innocent or guilty, we die because Adam ate a piece of fruit.

    • Alan says:

      CR,

      “I understand that this is what the rabbis say. It however doesn’t alter the fact that David had a man killed in order to sleep with his technically “ex wife.””

      You are extremely smart and you’ve read Tanakh. You can’t really believe that all David did was what you just said he did. If this is all he did, it would have been left out of Tanakh, he wouldn’t be the first Messiah and the father of the final redeemer. Not even the most wicked kings of Israel like Menashe and Ahab did anything close to what you said David did. And you also got the order of the events wrong. What you said he did doesn’t fit with the rebuke the prophets gave him, nor with the punishment Hashem gave him for it, nor with his own confession of what he did, nor with what the rest of Tanakh says about his life and the mistakes he made. Many stories in Tanakh are not meant to be taken at face value – many – and you already know this. Why did Hashem want it to be read this way if it could be misunderstood? One reason is to evoke in the reader horror and disdain for wrongdoing which makes us more sensitive to good and evil; and to show that the wrongdoing was close to being as bad as what it looks like relative to the high spiritual level of such righteous people (much more is epected of great people and for them it was almost as bad as what it sounds like); and to make us realize that in order to properly understand Tanakh we need the Oral Torah, we need to go and learn from Torah scholars.

      “As for what you take to be literal or not, the intent is clear. You dont use the words “burning in feces” if you mean to convey sunshine ot roses.””

      You’re right that they don’t mean to convey sunshine and roses. But I do not take it literally and they don’t mean the torture is forever.

      “If you are entitled to read that horrible sounding stuff in Nach as allegory, why is it worse if Christians do the same in their books? Thats my point.”

      Horrible sounding stuff in Nach as allegory? What stuff in Nach are you referring to? I never said David’s sin was allegory. I’m just saying it wasn’t the base degenerate crime you said it was. And I’m saying it based on reading everything said about David in Nach and everything David wrote in Nach and what the Oral traditions say. If you interested in knowing what really happened or the different opinions of what happened, I am sure there are very good essays and audio lectures on it by good torah scholars online.

      “Accirding to the plain meaning of the words in the Torah G-d intended man to take from the tree and live forever. So, whether you believe that humans are innocent or guilty, we die because Adam ate a piece of fruit.”

      You are an extremely smart dude. You probably realize there is a good chance that a few Jews over the past couple thousand years could give you deeper explanations for why people die than “we die because Adam ate a piece of fruit”. At this point in your life I thought that you would know there’s much more to the Torah and Judaism than what you just said.

      • Dina says:

        Con, the problem with non-Jews and the Talmud is one of lack of context.

        Here are some of the contexts of the the Talmud:

        1. The Talmud records the opinion of all the learned men of the day, even those that were far out in left field.

        2. The rabbis used a literary device called “guzma” (exaggeration) to make their points.

        3. The rabbis often (more often than not!) wrote allegorically.

        The rabbis deliberately wrote in an obscure manner so that if the Talmud should fall into the wrong hands the readers would not understand it, because they wanted the Talmud to be understood only by Jews. Fair or not, their technique obviously works.

        Therefore, if I may be so bold, I recommend that arguments on this blog between Jew and gentile be grounded in the Hebrew Bible and to leave the Talmud out of it.

        • Dina says:

          By the way, you can say Kaddish for a non-Jew. What does that tell you about Jewish attitudes to afterlife for non-Jews?

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Alan, the text plainly states what David did. Even the lectures you posted stated that he slept with another man’s wife, and then sent him into battle to die, trying along the way to be incognito about it.

        David wanted Uriah to lie with his wife so that he would not know what happened between David and Bathsheba. Uriah already suspected something was up.

        The classes you posted suggested that bathsheba was at fault too, (even though it is admitted in the class that for bathsheba to refuse David would have likely had direnconsequences.)

        The commentaries make the whole episode more complicated than it needs to be. If you change the plain sense, you are not giving the plain sense.

        You said if David did such things he wouldnt have merited what he did. How do you know that G-d couldnt use David if he had been guilty?

        Consider also, the baby was killed. Tgat means David sinned terribly.

        If you need two five part courses to explain what the text “really means,” are you explaining it at all?

        Dina, as per your comments on context and Talmud being obscure, thats the entire point. Its obscure to the point, out to left field to the point that there are opinions which jive with Christian opinions, even when you work super hard to avoid any hint of Christian like ideology.

        Alan, I am aware that there are deeper readings regarding Adam’s Sin, but the point is that often these readings require you to almost ignore the plain words on the pages and their implications.

        • Alan says:

          CR,

          What verse is the word t’gat in? I don’t recognize that word.

          Because this doesn’t relate directly to the post or to the purpose of this blog which is to help people who are confused by Christian missionary propaganda, I would appreciate if you could email your questions to Rabbi B or to me. I am sorry and I hope you understand.

          • Alan says:

            CR,
            If it was a short conversation I would have it on the blog even though it doesn’t directly relate to the purpose of the blog. But this topic will be an extended conversation. Again, I’m sorry I can’t have this particular conversation on the blog.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            Lol tgat is a typo for the word that.

          • Alan says:

            “Lol tgat is a typo for the word that.”

            Wow, my sinus infection must have spread to my brain. That is very very funny!!!

  22. Concerned Reader says:

    Alan, can you point me in tge direction of a Shiur in English that explains the episode properly so I can respond adequately?

    • Alan says:

      CR,
      Give me a day or two to find one or two shiurim (classes) for you.

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hello RT
        on the evidence, we can also conclude that Jesus had a mother and was not G-d…
        From scripture and history we can conclude the opposite. Jesus had no earthly Father.

        • Eleazar says:

          Paul Summers wrote: “From scripture and history we can conclude the opposite. Jesus had no earthly Father.”

          Then why does the NT include Joseph’s genealogy?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi
            Sorry again, I don’t always get the chance of replying straight away. Its a bit all, or nothing, with me.

            The very reason The NT shows Jesus genealogy through his step Father, Joseph, is to show that IF Joseph WAS his natural biological Father, then He, Jesus had no right to claim the Eternal Throne of David.

            According to Jeremiah CH 22 v 24~30.

        • RT says:

          How can you know that is the truth? Was there witness? I can know that we need at least two witness to judge a matter. As Joseph, wanted to divorce her, we can conclude that he did not have any evidence of the truth. Dreams cannot be used as proof, I hope you agree with me! So we have only one witness and it is Mary. If you agree that G-d was Jesus father (which you have no proof, historical fact, nor scriptural fact as the New testament is not inspired and not acknowledge by the Jewish people), then Jesus is not a descendant from David and cannot be the messiah. If you agree that Josef was his father, then G-d could not have concived Jesus, and the new testament say lies. You are stuck both ways Paul… You only have to choose which lie you want to follow to arrive at the conclusion that the new testament was not inspired.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi RT
            I need to go right now, but I will get back ASAP.
            OK this is just a quick thought?????

            If you need two or three witnesses, who witnessed the Creation, and the creation of Adam and eve?

          • Dina says:

            This law of two or three witnesses applies only in cases brought before a court of law.

          • Dina says:

            Paul, does your fear of Rabbi B.’s question not trouble you?

          • RT says:

            There are no claim for Adam and Eve. There is a disputable claim on Jesus, and the Jewish people never bought it. In case of a dispute, you need proofs to support your case. Jesus should not be considered the messiah, until he shows without reasonable doubts that he is. So far, if Jesus is born of G-d and not man, he cannot be from the line of David. If he is born of Joseph, he cannot be divine and most claims of the new testament are false. In either way, it does not seem like a positive outcome for Christianity. If a man claim he has G-d as his father, he better have good evidences and proofs of the truthfulness of it. If he claims he is himself god, he need some, million dollar evidence that proves that, especially that it looks like it contradict the whole Jewish Bible.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Dina
            Thanks for clearing that up. To be honest that was my first thought but I wasn’t 100% sure.

            I’ve answered The Rabbi’s question with a emphatic “No” on several occasions now, the first being a few years ago. Not sure if I can answer it in a another way.

            I gave and explained my position on the text, as did Rabbi.
            Might be mistaken here, but I’m sure it was this topic that had me removed from the blog as I was refusing to see the truth. ?!?!?!

          • Alan says:

            Paul,

            Is the subject (the “I/me”) of the verse “my close friend who I trusted and who ate my bread has lifted up his heel against me” the same subject (the “I/me”) as in the verse “Lord be gracious to me; heal my soul; for I have sinned against You”?

            Jesus says he is the prophesied subject of the the first verse. Does it make sense that Jesus is the subject of one verse but not the other?

          • Paul Summers If Jesus is not the subject of Psalm 41 than how does he quote this very Psalm and claim to have fulfilled one verse out of it?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Alan says:

            John 13:18 –
            “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’

            Paul Summers,
            In this verse, David (the author and subject of psalm 41) laments having had a close friend who betrayed him. Besides Jesus’ having this in common with David (and millions of humans from David’s time until Jesus’ time have also had friends turn on them), please tell me what else in this verse or in any other verse in this psalm points to specifically to Jesus? To claim that a prophecy is about a specific person, the prophecy has to be obvious that it is referring to a specific person. This psalm is David talking about himself. If you claim it is also a prophecy about a person who will live in the future, then either the whole psalm has to fit that person, or the prophetic verse has to be specific enough that we can tell it was referring to that one person out of all of the other people who ever lived. So I’m asking you what else about this verse or the rest of the psalm points specifically to Jesus in contrast to the millions of other people who have also been betrayed by a close friend?

          • Alan says:

            Paul Summers,
            Also, you claimed that only a Christian can serve God (control lust, pray carefully, do kindness, do these things for the sake of God despite suffering). Please tell us how you explain the millions of non-Christians since the time Jesus died that have served God.

          • Dina says:

            Paul, you did not answer this question, which Rabbi B. poses to you for the umpteenth time. You said you answered it with an emphatic no, but this is not a yes or no question.

            Answer the question, please.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi
            First of All the NT has been verified as scripture by thousands of Jews in times past, not just gentiles.
            Secondly the very texts were actually written by Jews. So Jews, obviously believed in them.
            Thirdly, There were 2 witnesses, Mary and Joseph.
            Fourthly Mary was pregnant, there’s the proof. Joseph was right to be worried, that’s why he was warned not to go ahead with the divorce.

            Need to go.

          • RT says:

            “First of All the NT has been verified as scripture by thousands of Jews in times past, not just gentiles.”

            Because a Jew read it does not mean and believe in it does not make it scriptures. Who has authority to verify and approve it as scriptures, and who did approve it as scriptures? Regardless if the people who approved the book of the new testament were Jewish or not, they did not have the authority to confirm them.

            If a matter arises which is too hard for you to judge, between degrees of guilt for bloodshed, between one judgment or another, or between one punishment or another, matters of controversy within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 9 And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge there in those days, and inquire of them; they shall pronounce upon you the sentence of judgment. 10 You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you.

            Jesus was a matter of controversy, and the Levites, the Priests and the judges all agreed he was not the messiah, not G-d and not to be listened to.

            The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead.

            https://judaismresources.net/2012/05/10/how-were-the-jewish-scriptures-canonized/

            “Secondly the very texts were actually written by Jews. So Jews, obviously believed in them.”

            Really, it could be written by Jews or not. We have not idea who wrote many of the new testament letters. Luke might be the only Gospel that we know for sure who wrote it, and he was a gentile. Look at Paul’s letters: “and twentieth century scholarship questioned the authenticity of the letter, with many scholars suggesting that First Timothy, along with Second Timothy and Titus, are not original to Paul, but rather to an unknown Christian writing some time in the late-first-to-mid-2nd century. Most scholars now affirm this view. As evidence for this perspective, they put forward that the Pastoral Epistles contain 306 words that Paul does not use in his unquestioned letters, that their style of writing is different from that of his unquestioned letters, that they reflect conditions and a church organization not current in Paul’s day, and that they do not appear in early lists of his canonical works.”

            And again, this is not the debate, but even if all the new testament was written by Jews, it does not change the fact that he was judged by the authority of the time and confirmed a false prophet.

            “Thirdly, There were 2 witnesses, Mary and Joseph.”

            What do you think a young girl who is pregnant and might face death penalty might do? For Joseph, he only had a dream, and did not witness any miraculous act of conception…

            “Fourthly Mary was pregnant, there’s the proof. Joseph was right to be worried, that’s why he was warned not to go ahead with the divorce.”

            That would not stand at a court trial…

            There is this crazy case in the news right now. A guy committed atrocious acts because god, or satan told him to do so. What do you think of his testimony in the court of justice? Do you think any of the jury believes that he heard a voice? Sure, this is quite possible. Do you think anybody in the jury believes god or satan talk to the guy? No, not a chance! Would you believe any 12 year old girl who would come to a similar story today? No, not a chance that you would believe her. How can you say it is a proof then?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello YFP. Alan

            Looking at the NT text.

            You say Jesus is quoting the Psalm in its entirety. Start to finish. Verse by verse.

            I honestly don’t see this being the case. Its not a case of me misreading the text. I can only state what Jesus quoted. Jesus didn’t say the “entire Psalm of David speaks of Me, This Psalm is Me”
            He simply doesn’t say such. Unfortunately you seem to think it does, because, of course you hold a opposed view of Jesus.

            Because the Psalm mentions sin in David’s life, I think the best angle to approach this subject is to find a passage that reveals Jesus as being a sinner. If sin can be found then we can conclude your position to be correct.

          • Paul Summers Is cherry-picking one verse out of a Psalm an honest way of reading Scriptures? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I didn’t say that at all.
            I’m asking how can anyone take one verse and say it is a prophecy about himself – that he is fulfilling the prophecy -when the verse could be referring to millions of other people and actually seems not to be referring to him if taken in context of the surrounding verses?

      • Alan says:

        CR,

        https://torahdownloads.com/c-119-shmuel-beis.html (5 audio classes)

        http://etzion.org.il/en/topics/sefer-shmuel?combine=&page=5 (article part 1 at bottom of page)

        http://etzion.org.il/en/topics/sefer-shmuel?combine=&page=6 (parts 2-5 near top of page)

        If you want to discuss this subject further I would appreciate it if it could be done offline, either by contacting Rabbi B or myself (Rabbi B can give you my email address).

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi Alan
          The text in context is about friendship being broken by betrayal.
          The psalm speaks of friendship so close that the breaking of bread is used to show how close they were, and the intensity of the friendship being broken.
          In the context of the Passover meal, Jesus is breaking bread with His friends and one of the group will betray Him. David wrote the psalm because he was grieved with a process of betrayal.
          In the context, so was Jesus.

          The person, David was NOT King Messiah, he was king of Israel. A man born a sinner, a adulterous man who had to repent of his own faults.
          Messiah Jesus had no sin to be forgiven of.

          The only parallels between them is that they both experienced betrayal from a friend. Jesus isn’t saying let Davids life of a king be fulfilled by Me, So let the Scriptures be fulfilled, He is saying, Betrayal of a friend be fulfilled.
          Jesus never said Psalm 41, start to finish is me.

          Lets Find a text that reveals Jesus as a sinner, then you have a case.

          In anticipation??

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I am not saying Jesus is saying the whole psalm is about him. I am granting you here that Jesus didn’t sin.

            Did you ever invite a friend over for dinner?

            I have. Millions of people have.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,

            This has happened to me twice in my life – two different very close friends who used to eat with me frequently turned on me. They didn’t know each other and both instances happened many years apart.

            This has happened to gajillions of people from the time the psalm was written until today. The verse doesn’t evenly remotely hint to a passover seder.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            I think you have gone off piste here. You need to stay focused. You correct about our friends etc, but the Bible is talking about Firstly King Davids betrayal, then Jesus betrayal. Its not about me or you.

            Betrayal of course is universal, yes, but here it is directed at two individuals, not the world.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I’m trying to stay focused.

            What was Jesus’ point or purpose in revealing to us that he was fulfilling that one verse?

  23. Eleazar says:

    Alan wrote:

    “RT,
    You are describing yourself. You are telling the truth when you say that you were a sincere and genuine Christian. I believe 100% that you were sincere when you were baptized in the holy spirit, etc… You are a sincere person now. I believe you were a sincere person then. Paul Summers cannot permit himself to believe you. He HAS to believe that you were a wicked deceitful person INCAPABLE OF BEING GENUINE AND SINCERE.”

    If I may, Alan, this was also leveled at me by Bibs, Paul and by Kavi. All ( as well as all my former Christian brethren) believe I was never a “real” Christian to begin with or I would not have left. While at the SAME TIME tell me my leaving was because I HAD TO BE “hurt” emotionally somehow by someone in the church. BTW, that is the MAIN ( almost the only) reason given by churches as to why people leave Christianity. Could it POSSIBLY be that I had a sincere love for God and the truth, and that Christianity was in the final analysis incompatible with Tanakh, which came first?
    They say no.

    The same argument is put to those Christians who change churches. Mainline churches literally picket Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and like here, respond to arguments they are losing with “You don’t have the holy spirit”, or “You’re being led by the devil”. The same accusations are made between Protestants and Catholics. Between Methodists and Calvinists. Between Messianics and Presbyterians.

    Take Bible 318, Kavi and Paul Summers and put them on an all-Christian forum and they would be going at each other as hard as they are going after us! And they would all be saying why each other lack the holy spirit and scriptural discernment. They band together here because we are “the enemies of Christ”, as per the text RT posted about the antichrist. Any other forum and they would be telling EACH OTHER why they are not saved!

    • RT says:

      What surprises me, is that no Christians can arrive with any arguments that could show the new testament is inspired. I actually wonder how I could have fall for such a thing. Now prophecies, a bunch of Bible verses taken out of context and fear of Hell. I do not see anything special that could hint the “Church” as filled with the spirit, Churches and congregation are often little click of people who think the same way and criticize others who don’t think the exact same way and label them as “unsaved”. If you look at the history of the Church, I would say that it is easy to label as “bad fruit” but the excuse that they use is “they were not saved”. Even their beloved Luther and Calvin were a bunch of Jew haters and only since a few years the “love” the Jew. Actually they love them so much, that they copy them in order to lure them into their Church!

      • Eleazar says:

        RT wrote: “Actually they love them so much, that they copy them in order to lure them into their Church!”

        Or to satisfy their Christian member’s curiosity of Judaism in a controlled setting. That way the church can dictate or manipulate the information and interpretation of meanings and scriptures. I have no doubt in my mind that this is the case.

        • bible819 says:

          Eleazar: That way the church can dictate or manipulate the information and interpretation of meanings and scriptures.
          Q&A:
          For that very reason, Israel is still Exiled?????????

          If you disagree- Hang up the Gloves

          God Says:

          Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets, I killed you with the words of my mouth– then my judgments go forth like the sun.

          In as much as the ( Prophets, Teachers, Leaders, Guides) led Israel astray.

          Prophets

          Ezekiel 14:14
          even if these three men–Noah, Daniel, and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

          Jeremiah 14:14
          Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds.

          1 Kings 18:22
          2Then Elijah said to the people, “I alone am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal’s prophets are 450 men????

          Guides/Leaders(Isaiah 3:12)
          My people, your guides lead you astray;
          they turn you from the path????

          Point Being, Man manipulates scripture.

          No difference between Israels’ past Guides = Todays Church Guides.

          King David said it best!
          Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin did my mother conceive me.

          Jesus is My Lord.

          • Dina says:

            Bibs proved his own point that “Point Being, Man manipulates scripture” with this comment.

          • Alan says:

            Bible819,
            You said “David said it best”.
            Do you think David said that one verse best or do you also think that psalm 51 says it best as a whole? If you read psalm 51 as a whole I don’t think it is what you want to hear. Do you want to know what David is really saying or do you only care about that one verse taken out of context? David is talking about his free-will to do teshuva without blood sacrifices and Hashem’s grace and compassion to accept our teshuva without blood sacrifices. David actually says that it isn’t the sacrifice that nakes us right with Hashem but teshuva. Sacrifices help in the right time and place but they are neither essential nor necessary to gain Hashem’s forgiveness and acceptance. You’ll note at the end of the psalm that sacrifices will only be favored by Hashem again after the forgiveness and acceptance have already been attained.

          • bible819 says:

            Dina,
            Yes. Israel would not consider Gods admonishment from the Prophets.

            God said it best,

            And from the prophet even to the priest Everyone deals falsely. 14″They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially, Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ But there is no peace!

            I’m glad we agree about that.

          • Dina says:

            It’s you guys who manipulate scripture, not us. You haven’t learned Balaam’s lesson. God has not given permission to the gentiles to admonish the Jews.

          • bible819 says:

            Alan,
            I agree that God desires mercy and not sacrifice.

            Context in Agreement

            A broken and contrite heart.(Isaiah 57:15)
            +
            “But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.<<<<<< Word,(God is the Same God)

            I believe that Jesus and the Father are 1.
            _________________________________
            And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that (every) imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
            +
            Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin did my mother conceive me.
            =
            As I said, Mankind.
            No difference

          • Alan says:

            Bibs,
            The reply I just made to Kavi can also serve as my reply to you. Please feel free to respond to it.

  24. Paul Summers says:

    Hi RT

    In comment regarding dreams, you seem to take the view that a dream is just imaginary mind wonderings. However in the context and in light of God speaking through dreams, the mode wasn’t a new phenomena that NT authors had just constructed.

    There are obvious characters from the Hebrew Bible that had dreams.

    Peter commentated on Paul’s scriptural, and spiritual life, and made the comment that Paul’s writing as been equal to the Hebrew texts.

    In light of our topic 2 Peter CH 3 vs 14~17b

    Deut CH 31 vs 27a ~29c

    • when jesus was born , people thought that joseph was the father of jesus? If yes, then was joseph was convinced dreams weren’t powerful evidence that child is born of ghost?

  25. Eleazar says:

    “Because the Psalm mentions sin in David’s life, I think the best angle to approach this subject is to find a passage that reveals Jesus as being a sinner. ”

    David: “I was betrayed by a close friend. Bummer”
    Jesus: “So was I. I must be the messiah”
    Christians: “See? Jesus fulfilled the prophecy that the messiah will be betrayed by a close friend. As goes David, so goes messiah.”

    But then-
    David: “I’ve sinned. God forgive me”
    Jesus: “I’m Perfect”
    Christians: “That is not a messianic prophecy. It is just David speaking of his own struggles”

    Bottom line, any similarities that can be retroactively applied to David is applied as a messianic prophecy. Anything that cant is not a prophecy.

    In other words, to Christian apologists, if David wrote about keeping Passover, it is a messianic prophecy applicable to Jesus. If David wrote about entering a chariot race, then it is NOT a prophecy applicable to messiah…

    UNTIL…

    a Christian says its a metaphor for entering the contest of messiah against Satan. Jesus being tempted by Satan. Then it becomes a messianic prophecy.

    HOWEVER…

    If David loses said chariot race, it is then NOT a messianic prophecy.

    UNLESS…

    If he wins it, then it is a metaphoric messianic prophecy about Jesus overcoming the temptations of Satan.

    THAT IS HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED

    • Alan says:

      Eleazar,
      Excellent game instructions!

    • “the first thing to note is that this psalm appears to be a penitential prayer , and perhaps to be used by a royal figure who is ill and has his enemies plotting against him while he is in a vulnerable state. Indeed , there is a reference to the supplicants sick bed (). More importantly , the suppliant INDICATES that he is ill because he has sinned.”

      why is he in a vulnerable state? Because he is ill. Why is he ill? Because he sinned.

      how john could clip one verse and disregard context ?

      • Alan says:

        MHC,
        Right you are.

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hello Mr Heathcliffe

        You forget that John isn’t cut and pasting what he decides, he He repeating the words of Jesus. Its a written account of a event that happened.
        John isn’t adding 2 plus 2 making 5. Jesus is simply referring to a betrayal that was pre recorded from a historical text.

        You use the words, appears, penitential, and perhaps.
        You seem here to have doubt’s on your own views?? 100% not, but could be something else, but not sure??

        • Paul Summers If John was telling the truth (which would be strange) than Jesus was cutting and pasting 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • Alan says:

          Paul Summers,

          Is one of the written signs of the Messiah that he will be betrayed by a close friend?

          How do you explain when you see with your own eyes non-Christians who serve the God of Israel, when you claim that a non-Christian cannot do so? Please explain how it appears they can do it.

      • maybe a royal figure who FOUND himself in similar situation as the psalmist and then in that situation calling out to GOd? As you can see I put the words in quotations because it was a clear and short commentary exposing Johan misuse of psalms.

      • IT is scholarly consensus now that the gospel writers do cut and paste verses from the Hebrew bible and put it in Jesus’ mouth. And do you not find it strange that they never source eyewitnesses but Hebrew bible?

    • Paul Summers says:

      Hi

      OK, changing the content but keeping with context, ie when does a text mean all but not a little, as in the discussion of Psalm 41.

      Let’s look at Deut CH 31 vs 27~ 29c

      Is Moses talking about Israel, The Jews, of that generation only, the next couple of following generations, or Israel then and history to come. ( Present day)

      What and when are the latter days?

      Also

      Deut CH 18 v15a~ 22b

      So who wants to cherry pick this one

      • Alan says:

        Paul,
        I will answer if you answer my questions first – the last question I asked you: What was Jesus’ purpose in revealing to us that he is fulfilling that verse in psalms? And how do you explain the existence of non-Christians serving God because you say only a Christian can serve God.

        I will answer you if you answer these questions first (because I asked you first).

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hi Alan
          1. Simple, A betrayal by a friend. Nothing more.
          1a. This passage wasn’t meant to prove, there and then, “This it Guys, the only proof you need”. Its just one, just one, of authenticating signs, fulfilments, that show, reveal His credentials, from the Hebrew texts that He was fulfilling everything written about Messiah. Going into more depth He was actually revealing the Man of Sorrow s. Context shows that the sign wasn’t for the world on mass THEN, but just for the group, there and then.

          2. From the NT stance, one can only serve God if Him, The Holy Spirit has regenerated the dead spirit of a non believer. A dead spirit cannot serve God.

          One has to be born anew, born again, or born from above, according to John CH 3 v3.

          • David is exposed to being attacked and betrayed because of his vulnerable state. He has no choice. your god was “willingly going to his death” and needed betrayal for the plan to work. The clip john clipped from psalms is taken completely out of context

          • Alan says:

            Paul,

            “Its just one, just one, of authenticating signs, fulfilments, that show, reveal His credentials, from the Hebrew texts that He was fulfilling everything written about Messiah.”

            He was showing that he was fulfilling everything about the messiah. So one of the signs of the messiah was that a friend would betray him?

            “From the NT stance, one can only serve God if Him, The Holy Spirit has regenerated the dead spirit of a non believer. A dead spirit cannot serve God.
            One has to be born anew, born again, or born from above, according to John CH 3 v3.”

            You told me that the definition of serving God is in Timothy – control lusts, pray seriously, do kindness, suffer for the sake of God. Are you saying that when a person like me does these things, it only look like I’m serving God but what I’m really doing is serving the flesh because I am a dead spirit?

          • Paul Summers Not “one fulfilled prophecy” one out of many lies – what would you say if we quoted one verse out of a chapter to disprove your idolatrous claims? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Alan says:

        “Let’s look at Deut CH 31 vs 27~ 29c
        Is Moses talking about Israel, The Jews, of that generation only, the next couple of following generations, or Israel then and history to come. ( Present day)
        What and when are the latter days?”

        Moses might have known exactly which generations he was referring to but I don’t think the people could have known except through prophecy. It’s not clear to me what is meant by “in the end of days”. Perhaps it means in the few generations preceding the Messiah? I’m not sure.

        “Also
        Deut CH 18 v15a~ 22b
        So who wants to cherry pick this one”

        These are the basic laws of prophecy – how the people can tell the difference between a kosher prophet and a false prophet. Also see Deut. 13:1-6 for more of the basic laws of prophecy.

      • Paul Summers This is a laugh – you don’t know that the “you” of Scripture is Eternal Israel – that Israel is one entity throughout the generations? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hello YPF

          The question that was asked was given in a rhetorical frame of reference.

          Something, if you look, wasn’t unfamiliar to the way God asked a question. If you need guidance I can show you some Hebrew texts to substantiate my point.

          However I’m more that confident you know this, which begs the question why you responded the way you did.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan

            Looking at YPF answer, you will see he is correct. When Moses was referring to Israel as a nation, he meant the Jews then, and the Jews to come.
            God of Israel said that Israel will always be degenerate, backsliding, adulterous, etc. This is a scriptural point of view of Israel. Its very clear.
            What also is very clear that from the Hebrew texts God has kept for Himself, For His Name sake, a small remnant of True Jews that does not backslide. This also can be seen from scripture.

            Go back 2000 yrs in time you of course will read about a Man of Nazareth, claiming to be the Messiah, Son Of David. You will also read that the Leaders of Israel finally rejected this Mans claim, on the Grounds of demon possession. Math. CH 12.

            However in comparison to the nation rejecting Jesus a moderate size of Jews Did believe in Him. The believing remnant.

            So you see context is everything. If you compare the deut text with say Zech CH 12 you will see two thirds being cut off from the living, and one third coming through by faith. But deut says “All”. So you see a apparent error in the continuity. Not at all.

            God has preserved a remnant. Presently those Jews are in the Body of Christ.

            Looking at Psalm 41 now, you are saying that the one verse is conveniently used by Christian to uphold a view, and when its convenient ignore the other verses.
            But as discussed previously not all the texts have to be read in one clump.

            Most times you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture of scripture to see the greater detail.

            Sometimes it not just black and white. There are systematic, theological rules to follow which need to be adhered to, because the alternative is confusion.

          • Alan says:

            Paul Summers,
            You are an antisemite to the tee. “God of Israel said that Israel will always be degenerate, backsliding, adulterous, etc.” You read Tanakh like all of the Church fathers, Luther, etc. You are not here to learn. You are here to have a platform to preach, to appear as a martyr and to annoy.

          • Alan Paul doesn’t see himself as an antisemite – he just applies all the negative in Scripture about Israel to us and all the positive to himself

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Paul Summers Which community has the eternal sign of God’s Sabbath? (Exodus 31:13)

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • RT says:

            “God of Israel said that Israel will always be degenerate, backsliding, adulterous, etc.”

            Whit that point of view, why are you here, or reading this blog or commenting on it? If we are degenerate and backsliding, then you must be right. And if you are right, then you do not need this blog, and you are not here to have a grown up conversation, but only to evangelize.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Paul Summers Not “one fulfilled prophecy” one out of many lies – what would you say if we quoted one verse out of a chapter to disprove your idolatrous claims? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources

          Of course you do, you need to try and show me. If you said you didn’t then Moses would be a false prophet.
          Please go ahead a fulfill Moses words.

          • Paul Summers
            I quoted 1000 verses – I didn’t need to quote them out of context – https://judaismresources.net/2010/08/31/1000-verses/

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi,
            Antisemitism as viewed from yourself will always be the argument that one uses, when one is challenged with Scriptural truth. Its basically a race card. Which is soooooo booooooring. Yawn.

            The point I was raising. Which you still fail to see is that if Israel as viewed from Jehovah Himself says “Israel consistently deny me etc”, why does it seem so incredulous that at most you deny the Bible’s actually view on Jesus The messiah. You are actively and willfully
            doing what Moses said you would do. Well you are, that’s my point.

            I’m here, to counter your view on the NT

            But since I serve a Jewish God, read a Jewish Bible, study the Scriptures from a Jewish Dr in Theology etc, hardly I’m sure makes me a antisemitic.
            Funny that only today I managed to start a conversation with a Portuguese guy. After a few moments, we were talking history, he mentioned that he didn’t recognise Israel as owner’s of the promise land. He was in fact very antisemitic with his views on The Jew’s world domination, banking and all the other conspiracy bull which has been spewed out over the centuries. Of course I had to tell him is error of such views.
            And here you are accusing me of antisemitism. Go figure??

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I am grateful that you stuck up for the Jewish people today. But even though you don’t consider yourself an antisemite like that guy, you do hold some antisemitic Christian views as shown in your post.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello YPF

            he just applies all the negative in Scripture about Israel to us and all the positive to himself

            That I totally disagree with. Israel will one day be returned to God with all the covenanted promises as per scripture. Israel as a nation will stay as a nation, Jewish in all her Glory.

          • RT says:

            And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

            Yes, it is possible to SERVE G-d without Jesus. POINT PROVEN!

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            Paul Summers has to come up with a theology of why it was possible for people to serve Hashem without an intermediary before Jesus came into the world but after Jesus came into the world it suddenly became impossible without Jesus. I would love to hear this theology.

          • RT says:

            Not only some people, All Israel…. That’s an entire nations for two generations.

  26. Paul Summers says:

    Hello

    Can you please repeat yourself, I don’t understand your comments.

    • Alan says:

      Paul,

      How can anyone say a specific verse is a prophecy about himself WHICH HE FULFILLED when the verse is so general it can apply to millions of people AND the verses before and after the verse don’t fit the person’s life?

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi Alan
        Yes this guy was furious to say the least. He actually stated that ethnic Jews don’t even exist today.!!! Sad

        Anyway, the points I make about Israel and non believing Jews, are not antisemitic. The points that I raise, and the way they come across, are only given to make you and others see in a certain way, to make my point. That point being sin, regardless of race, but redemption through A Jewish God.

        It may seem odd to you, that’s fine, but no antisemitism is intended.

        • Paul Summers If you are not antisemitic – tell me – in what way are the Jews God’s witnesses? What is their testimony? (Isaiah 43:10) 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • PAUL SUMMERS says:

            Hello
            That’s a great verse, It teaches that The God of Isreal is telling the Jews that they are His standard bearers, as it were. That they, should be reflecting Gods glory etc.

            Unfortunately though because of there sin, this failed on a national platform.( OT Prophets, Mathew ch 12). However as God promised, the covenants still stand, but this can only be seen through by the believing remnant. The remnant that believes by faith in God.

            Not with their mouths but with their hearts.

            Of course God will always protect the Jew from a overall destruction because, as the text says” you will be my witnesses”.
            Paul says “Salvation is by/from the Jews. But you cannot be a witness if you have no faith, from a NT position only Jewish Messianic Jesus followers are a witness.

            I think this might answer the other question about sanctification??

          • Paul Summers So for the past 2000 years the Jewish people have not been God’s witnesses? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • RT says:

            ” still stand, but this can only be seen through by the believing remnant. ”

            Are you trying to cover a replacement theology? Jews who believe in Jesus are not Israel. Their core belief has changed, You see, in your view, the covenant still stand only if and when a Jew accept Jesus. If he does not accept Jesus, he is worthy of hell fire. It really makes no difference that you don’t believe that the Church replace Israel, because that Israel that you believe in is NOT Israel in the first place, but a bunch of apostate Jews. So yes, you don’t believe that Israel’s covenant is still standing the way it always did and as G-d promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

        • Alan says:

          Paul,
          Do you believe the Jewish people are no worse (no more degenerate) than any other nation?

          Do you believe Luther was not an antisemite?

          • PAUL SUMMERS says:

            Hi Alan
            Not at all, we are fallen sinners. However the only difference from a scriptural point of view is that Israel receive double for Her sins. Jerimiah ch 16 v18.

            Luther definitely held antisemitic views.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I’m sorry but your reply wasn’t 100% clear to me. Could you please answer yes or no: Are the Jewish people worse than the other nations? (Because you said the Scriptures promise that the Jews will ALWAYS be degenerate, backsliding and adulterous).

          • RT says:

            Paul , why do the Jews have to pay double for their iniquity, and still G-d be angry and throw them in hell? “Speak comfort to Jerusalem, and cry out to her, That her warfare is ended, That her iniquity is pardoned; For she has received from the Lord’s hand Double for all her sins.”. After G-d punished them the double of what they have done by the hand of all the nations, G-d speak comfort to Israel, not wrath. The Christians are part of the nations who were used by G-d to show judgment. Yes, they pay, and yes they paid more than what G-d wanted. That’s what Isaiah 53 said: “yet we considered him (Israel) punished by God”. That’s what you believe, that G-d still punished Israel for their rejection of Jesus, isn’t’ it? Jesus did not bring comfort to Israel. I would said, that you have to discard 2000 years of history if you want to believe that Christianity brought comfort to anybody. Yet, G-d speak of Comfort to his people, and you want to convince me that G-d still wants wrath?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello YPF
            According to;

            Leviticus CH 17 v11
            Jeremiah CH 31 vs 31~32
            Luke CH 22 v20.

            Eschatological speaking, Only those Jews in Christ Jesus, can be called witnesses in the True Scriptural sense.

          • Paul Summers OK – so you believe in replacement theology – perhaps you pay lip-service to the words “Israel is still a chosen nation” but you eviscerated those words of all meaning 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello RT
            God Did promise all the covenant’s to Israel, yes that’s correct. But like all scripture teaches, man, in this context, Israel have to believe, by Faith, for the promise to be applied.

            Of course the Abrahamic covenant is not a conditional covenant, its unconditional, God will see it through to the end, no matter how Israel acts. But Israel will have to repent on Her views about The Messiah, for that covenant to come into force. There has to be an act of faith and obedience. Which of course will come, one day. As God promised.

          • RT says:

            Paul, that act of faith and obedience should not contradict the Tanach. G-d is not a man, and he promised not to become one (Deut 7). Basically, there was a new guy who claimed to be god and said that we should believe in him. Why should the Jews believe in him, if it contradict the word of G-d?

  27. Paul Summers says:

    Hello

    Context and specifically the verses in question in both accounts are being fulfilled.
    There are no other texts that show a similar in counter. Agreed, Psalm 41, at the time of writing was not intended to show a prophecy then. Let’s say 50 years after the Psalm Was written, nobody was looking at a event of betrayal in one who was claiming to be the Son of David. However once the said event event had taken place again at the Passover, the specific text was mentioned and brought to light, the similar event was betrayal, that’s all.

    You are correct, the act of betrayal could and I’m sure does happen thousands of times everyday to lots of people.

    However only here is it recorded at a important time in history, for a very specific purpose.
    The NT doesnt make a claim that Jesus is fulfilling the entire Psalm.
    This argument is based solely on distraction rather than content.

    • Alan says:

      Paul,

      You’re saying that the context of the verse in psalm 41 was also fulfilled at the Last Supper? The context doesn’t even hint to a seder let alone Passover. The context is about a sick man who is trying to do teshuva and is begging Hashem not to let his enemies triumph over him. So what was Jesus trying to teach us by pointing out that he is fulfilling the prophecy of this verse in psalm 41? What was his point?

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hi Alan
        You seem to read a lot into my texts which aren’t there and dismiss which is there??

        The act which has been mentioned at least, well I’ve lost count! Was the act of betrayal when breaking bread. Breaking bread wasn’t just a Passover observed ritual, I’m sure you are aware of this??
        Now you bring the content of a Passover meal to the table, no pun intended!!

        Who mentioned that the context had to be a Passover meal from the Psalm to connect it to Jesus. The texts say nothing about the type of meal for it to be a fulfillment. You seem to be bringing in your own arguments and versions of events to discredit the point of view.

        • Alan says:

          Paul,
          I apologize if I saw things in your writing that you didn’t mean.
          Please just tell me what was Jesus’ purpose in revealing to us that he was the fulfillment of that verse.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello RT
            Honestly I’m not ignoring you, I’m trying to keep up!!!

            Will definitely get back to you, I do read your comments.

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hello Alan

        ’m sorry but your reply wasn’t 100% clear to me. Could you please answer yes or no: Are the Jewish people worse than the other nations? (Because you said the Scriptures promise that the Jews will ALWAYS be degenerate, backsliding and adulterous).

        I can only give you an answer based on what the scriptures say. The Bible doesn’t say that they are worse than other nations. God strictly told them to obtained from the nations adulterous ways. So other nations must be seen as fallen equally. So the answer is no.
        The point I was making was that, because God entered into a special relationship with Israel, like no other, then Israel will receive double for her sins.

        The point the scriptures make are that Israel on the whole will continually fight against Gods statutes, but God will always have a believing remnant within the nation.

        Not all Jews will stay in a state of unbelief because scripture very clearly teaches that Israel will turn back to God, and God will receive them. Israel the remnant that is.

        • Alan says:

          Paul,
          I’m asking for your forgiveness for calling you an antisemite.
          You know, however, that the NT says that the Jews are worse than non-Jews. You know this right? Do you not accept what Paul wrote that the “Jews are the enemies of humanity” (paraphrase).

          You wrote: “Not all Jews will stay in a state of unbelief because scripture very clearly teaches that Israel will turn back to God, and God will receive them. Israel the remnant that is.”

          This is against Tanakh. Tanakh says that not just the faithful remnant will return to Hashem. It doesn’t even make sense that the faithful remnant will return to Hashem because they are ALREADY faithful. The ones who will return to Hashem are those who are not faithful. Tanakh says that many Jews and non-Jews who ARE NOT FAITHFUL will return and be accepted by Hashem. Today’s faithful remnant of Jews are those who keep shabbat, kosher and the other basic laws of the Torah according to the direction that the Jewish people received from Moses.

          • Alan says:

            Paul’s Ministry 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 –

            14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan
            Forgiveness not required. No worries on my behalf.

            Paul isn’t against Jews or any nation. He does though speak about the certain Jews who are opposing the Gospel message. But His view is targeting specific individuals not all Jews. Paul’s views are bold in his speech, yes, but he is passionate about the truth not being tarnished and the message being corrupted by a few who were bringing in destructive teachings, or by complete non believers, the Leaders of Israel.

            Paul shows his continued love for his kin through several texts.
            Paul insisted on preaching to the Jew first, he still observed some Jewish traditions, and publicly rebuked Peter in Antioch. CH 2 v11, for being a hypocrite against Jews.

            Just as Paul was a Trailblazer for Judaism He became just as passionate after His New Birth.

            In regard to the remnant. What I meant was that the ones who don’t believe, who then do, are the remnant. There will be a number who will not believe, ever, the non remnant.

            Yes, at this moment in time Thousands reject Jesus as Messiah, but one day in that number thousands will return to Him, by faith, but not all.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            Which population and generation of Jews was he referring to? And why only “the Jews” and not also the Romans?

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            Which specific Jews did Paul mean? And why only “the Jews” and not the Romans?

            And please tell me how you know which Jews Paul was referring to because the plain meaning is the Jewish people in general.

          • RT says:

            Paul, I know you ignore all my comments, but regardless… Could you imaging the possibility that you could even be wrong? There are three possibility, logically speaking.

            1) You are right and we are all wrong
            2) We are right and you are wrong
            3) We are both wrong.

            If you come to this blog, you have to acknowledge that there is a chance that you could be wrong. I could be wrong. Can you be wrong about Jesus? Are you willing to consider that you could be wrong about Jesus?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello RT

            Answering just one of your questions here, I am trying not to miss you
            Of course we all make mistakes, me more than most.
            My grammar, spelling can be questioned, sometimes my attitude, my response’s, even wrong, Biblical quotes, sometimes out of context.
            Having said that, I will defend my Position as a believer and defiantly defend on what I see as truth in relation to the Bible, and it teaches. That being the basic foundation of the Gospel message.

            I can only do this with Gods Grace, through the power of His Might, by the Indwelling Holy Spirit.

          • KAVI says:

            Alan,
            [] In light of Isaiah 1 and Ezekiel 20, why do you believe the rebellious ones won’t be in the majority?

            [] Also, from what I understand, you described “return” as rabbinic teshuva in Deuteronomy 30. Are you excluding the “faithful” from Deuteronomy 30?
            ________________________

          • Kavi How do YOU understand “return” of Deuteronomy 30? The prophet is very clear 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Alan says:

            Kavi,

            “[] In light of Isaiah 1 and Ezekiel 20, why do you believe the rebellious ones won’t be in the majority?”

            The Tanakh is not clear about this, so we just don’t know. All I can say is what I see today which makes me hopeful – from a recent survey taken in Israel – most Jews in Israel today ,about 2/3, are either orthodox or traditional. Outside of Israel pretty much only the orthodox are faithful. The orthodox are about 10% of American Jewry but they are the only ones who are really reproducing. Ultimately, only Hashem can judge who is “faithful enough” to be alive at the time of the final redemption. This is something we can’t know by looking at a person from the outside or even from just talking to them. They might not look very “faithful” but who knows what good things they have done in their lives? Only Hashem knows. And even if someone does not physically live through the redemption, spiritually they might be just fine.

            “[] Also, from what I understand, you described “return” as rabbinic teshuva in Deuteronomy 30. Are you excluding the “faithful” from Deuteronomy 30?”

            The verses say clearly what teshuva is –

            1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you will take it to heart among all the nations, where the Lord your God has driven thee, THIS MEANS THE PENITENT (BAAL TESHUVA) WILL REGRET AND FEEL GUILTY FOR HIS BEHAVIOR, THIS IS THE FIRST STEP OF TESHUVA

            2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; SECOND STEP IS TO TURN AWAY FROM ONE’S PREVIOUS BEHAVIOR AND TO BEGIN TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS ACCORDING TO GOD’S INSTRUCTIONS TO MOSES.

            I don’t understand your question: “Are you excluding the “faithful” from Deuteronomy 30″

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan
            Paul is referring to the Jews who were in his immediate vicinity. The ones who were causing strife either with him face to face, or the ones who, geographically at a distance, were preaching against him.
            Paul emphasized his rebuking on those particular Jews because as Gods standard bearer’s, then should have known better.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,

            “Paul is referring to the Jews who were in his immediate vicinity. The ones who were causing strife either with him face to face, or the ones who, geographically at a distance, were preaching against him.
            Paul emphasized his rebuking on those particular Jews because as Gods standard bearer’s, then should have known better.”

            But what are you basing this reading on? The plain words “the Jews” mean Jews in general. If he just meant specific Jews why wouldn’t he have said who these specific Jews were in order not to confuse his readers since he was writing also for future generations? And why is he not also picking on the Romans? Instead of saying “the Jews” he should have just said, “the enemies of Christ” or “the enemies of God” which would not single out the Jews.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            You write: “Paul is referring to the Jews who were in his immediate vicinity. The ones who were causing strife either with him face to face, or the ones who, geographically at a distance, were preaching against him.”

            In his immediate vicinity or the ones far away who were causing him strife?

            But Paul writes: “the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. ”

            Paul Summers, are “the Jews who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets” the Jews in Paul’s immediate vicinity or in his day? You say he was only referring to specific Jews in his day. This text contradicts your claim.

          • RT says:

            “Having said that, I will defend my Position as a believer and defiantly defend on what I see as truth in relation to the Bible, and it teaches.”

            Paul, how could you say that you cannot be wrong? Think about it, everybody think they are right, but if you are unwilling to listen to others, you will never get out of your own folly if you are wrong. If you really love truth, and G-d, then, it is worth testing what you believe. G-d is not pleased with you if you believe a lie and are unwilling to listen. How do you expect us to listen to you, but not the other way round?

          • RT says:

            Here, Kavi, G-d forgives iniquity when you are obedient.

            “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
            says the Lord.
            “Though your sins are like scarlet,
            they shall be as white as snow;
            though they are red as crimson,
            they shall be like wool.
            If you are willing and obedient

            But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.
            But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered.
            Ezekiel 18

            This shows that when we do right, G-d forgives us and if we turn from doing right, G-d won’t remember the good we previously did.

            Isn’t that Teshuva? Jesus blood is NOT needed!

    • Paul Summers says:

      Hello YFP
      – so you believe in replacement theology – perhaps you pay lip-service to the words “Israel is still a chosen nation” but you eviscerated those words of all meaning 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism

      I’m not sure if your understanding of replacement theology is the same as mine???

      From my standpoint replacement theology is when the church replace Israel. They say the church has always existed, or now the church has spiritually, ethnically replaced Israel, They cherry pick blessings for the church and curses for Israel.

      I’ve never ever held these views or even propagated such ideas here.
      I honesty cannot see why you hold and accuse me of these views?

      I’ve made my position on Israel extremely clear on all occasions when possible.

      I do NOT pay lip service to Israel and Her covenanting promises made by God. The covenanted People, ethnic Jews, Israel will, do own ALL the land and all Gods promises contained therein, according to scripture. The Church has no ownership of Israel, nor will it ever own such.

      The church, The Body of The Messiah, The Bride, not The Wife, partake in Israel’s blessings and participate with Ethnic Israel the remnants, but no way, ever, ever, ever overtake or replace the Jews. Those promised covenants still belong to Israel The Jews.

      Hope this clears up any misunderstandings?!

      • Paul Summers First of all – since when do you consider “cherry-picking” wrong? Second – what is Israel’s role in God’s plan? You allow them to be recipients of blessing but you deny them the blessing of being God’s armor bearers – so yes – you have replaced Jesus for Israel (you have put him in place of God as well) 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hello YPF

          Cherry picking is OK??? Odd! So you must consider replacement theology OK?? Even odder!

          Gods overall plan in regard to Israel, is to establish Atonement for sin. He established Israel to bring forth and reveal His Grace, and redemption for mankind.
          He established a nation to bring Himself to the point of Death to pay the ransom price required to bring fallen man back into His presence. God gave Israel the Law to reveal the sin nature, and to reveal Gods Holy standard.

          Israel are the prince of God, but Yeshua IS The Prince Of God par excellence.

          So I haven’t replaced Israel, just shown what The Hebrew Bible says about God using Yeshua The Prince Of God.

        • Paul Summers says:

          Hello YPF

          I think really God is the One playing the active role.

          Gods plan for Humanity via Israel is on track and not going a miss.

          God has a plan and purpose for Israel the remnant, and
          a plan for the non remnant.

          Prophetically today, Israel the nation are, by the majority in a state of unbelief, and are currently being gathered back to the Land to be punished for their present condition of unfaithfulness.

          • Paul Summers But Scripture tells us that Israel has an active role to play in God’s plan – Isaiah 41:15; 51:16; 52:11

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Paul Summers says:

        Hello Alan
        Yes you are right, I Missed that in my response. Sorry. Paul does refer also to the Jews, past, pre Christ. Paul was of course referring to the non remnant that also had become opposition to Gods word via the old prophets.
        Basically Paul was stating that not much had changed within the hearts of his kin, because The Messiah had come and had been rejected.

        • Alan says:

          Paul,
          You are saying that Paul was talking about Jews pretty much from the beginning of Jewish history up to and ending with his day. Please tell me how you know that he was excluding from his statement the Jews who would live after his time? Because that’s what you just wrote – that he was only referring to pre-Christ Jews up to his own time.

          • Alan says:

            What the NT is saying is that the Jews have always been from the beginning and will always remain killers of god and prophets and enemies of humankind, except for a tiny number who will become like Paul Summers. So you see that the Jews are much worse than any other nation for the simple reason that the Jews of all people should know better. We are “hostile to all people” unless we are like Paul Summers.

            Paul,
            Do you not see that this is what the NT teaches? You accept it as the truth right?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            Ref your comment, tiny number, paul summers etc

            For one, our context is Jewish believers and Jewish non believers. Im a gentile!!

            Secondly, you make a statement which isn’t taught by scripture. I’ve explained the position and showed you the texts to support the teaching. I’m afraid you see things that simply just aren’t there. I can only assume this is only brought on by previous bad teaching and presumption based on error.

            The texts simple don’t support your views. It feels like you want the NT to teach antisemitism to support your theory’s??

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            So when Paul wrote “the Jews” are killers of Jesus and the prophets, are displeasing to god, hostile to all men, and have the utmost wrath of god upon them, he didn’t mean “the Jews”, but just the rabbis (the leaders were the rabbis some of whom were priests)?

            Paul,
            There is no antisemitism in the NT?

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            You wrote ( https://judaismresources.net/2017/06/05/differences-a-letter-from-eleazar/#comment-37122 ) :

            “God of Israel said that Israel will always be degenerate, backsliding, adulterous, etc. This is a scriptural point of view of Israel. Its very clear.
            What also is very clear that from the Hebrew texts God has kept for Himself, For His Name sake, a small remnant of True Jews that does not backslide. This also can be seen from scripture.”

            When you wrote “Israel” above, did you just mean the leaders of Israel (i.e. the rabbis)? Or did you mean Israel in general (i.e. the non-True Jews who backslide)?

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            Well of course he must be right because if you look at this blog, it might prove my point!!

          • Alan says:

            “Well of course he must be right because if you look at this blog, it might prove my point!!”

            Paul,
            I don’t understand what you mean by this. Can you please rephrase it?

  28. Concerned Reader says:

    Finally, does anyone else find the exclusive nature of both Christianity and Islam interesting?

    No, I don’t and let me explain why. For generation upon generation, Israel as a nation taught that there was only one deity and that the Torah was G-d’s one path to the full unadulterated truth.

    It is in the Bible’s nature to make exclusive claims to truth.

    The Pagan world by contrast taught that “all paths lead to the same truth, and it doesn’t matter if someone believes in many deities, it doesn’t matter what the nature of those deities is.

    ” IE Israel made exclusive claims to the truth, so it stands to reason that the sister faiths would make similar claims.”

    Some might say that Christianity says that only Church members get to heaven, but the New Testament says that “those who have not the law do by nature what the law requires and they will be judged by that standard.”

    The Orthodox Christian position is that it is the Church’s view that Orthodoxy is the fullest path to salvation, but Christians are not supposed to judge others.

    While Judaism teaches that everyone who is just has a share in the world to come, there is no such promise in Jewish sources about everyone being risen from the dead. Much debate exists about that question.

    Monotheism as a religious idea is itself an exclusive claim, Israel as a nation basically told the whole world that they were wrong about there being several deities, or a subjective moral code.

    Torah sources themselves clearly teach that a gentile who observes the seven laws only because they make sense does not receive a reward. Only if a noachide believes in and follows the laws because he believes they come from G-d, does he merit reward. So, in fact, no, I dont find exclusive claims on the part of Christianity and Islam to be odd, because Judaism makes exclusive claims of its own, has punishments for heretics of its own, etc.

    • Alan says:

      CR,

      It is one opinion that says a Gentile must keep the universal laws because Hashem commanded so in the Torah in order tp have a share in the world to come. Judaism is not sure if the world to come is the same thing or something different from eternal life. I’m of the belief that a Gentile or Jew who for the most part keeps the 7 laws even if not because Hashem commanded in the Torah, has eternal life. And I am saying this based on big people such as the Meiri.
      Judaism IS different as Dina said.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        The Meiri himself is in the minority on most things Alan, see my dilemma?

        It seems to me that both Judaism and Christianity present the world with a book of riddles and a “true” interpretation that will make all the worrisome passages make sense.

        The problem is, there is no promise that everyone will believe the interpretations.

        When you have the text say something on its face, and then have to write volumes to unpack the intent, is the juice worth the squeeze?

        • Alan says:

          CR,
          I relate to your questions very very much. I have all the same questions. I don’t know if the Meiri is a minority on most things. But on this thing I do believe he is a minority. I am not a torah scholar. I can barely learn Talmud even with a teacher. A close friend of mine who became observant about a year before me is a real Torah scholar and he works full time. He’s also much brighter than I am. I feel that with the knowledge and life experience I have gained over the past 25 years I am able to bring something of value to the discussions on this blog. It would be very hard for me to respond to your questions in writing. I think it might be hard for most people to do it in writing. The best way is face to face. Is there any way you can find someone to ask your excellent questions to face to face? If you’re not looking for that I will try to dig deep and tell you on the blog how I personally deal with these questions. But I’m not sure this blog is the right place for it. I’ll let Rabbi B decide.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan

            Romans CH 9,10, 11, are mainly dealing with Christ’s rejection, Gods rejection by them, with Historical parallels, Paul’s is fervently teaching the truth, and Israels coming redemption. He, Paul makes it extremely clear, with no exceptions that the Remnant of Israel will come out of Israel and one day believe in Christ. Securing the covenant’s as per scripture.

            Paul isn’t talking about the Church verses Israel, he is actually referring to Israel non believer and Israel believer.

            Knowing this, one can understand who Paul is referring to, obviously NOT Jewish believers, but non Jewish believers.
            What would the point of rebuke do to a believer seeing that they already believe??

            Romans CH 11 v 28 talks about being enemies of the Gospel.
            V32. Says them all, everyone. Jew and gentile.

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            Are you saying that when Paul wrote the following he was referring to both Jewish and non-Jewish non-Christians? –

            Paul’s Ministry 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 –

            “14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.”

            You are saying the above is also about Gentiles who are not believers?

        • Alan says:

          CR,
          Just as a beginning of an answer – Judaism is grounded in halacha in the physical world. I find the halacha to be just, righteous and wise and with a deep understanding of human nature. There are some gray areas of halacha and in these gray areas the halachic system is broad enough to accommodate very different opinions. I think some of these gray areas are meant to be gray and even if there was a Sanhedrin, the Sanhedrin wouldn’t try to take a vote on it. When you live Judaism according to halacha and you see what living a halachic life does in reality for the individual, the family, the community, the nation and the world, the theological questions don’t go away, but they are not as scary and all-consuming because the person is grounded in concrete halacha that really works to improve life tremendously.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            I have no doubt that Jews find meaning and insight, and comfort from practical observance, and I see how its concrete nature could make deep theological questions less problematic. In fact, its probably because I was raised Christian and mot Jewish that these issues seem more problematic to me personally.

          • Alan says:

            The halachic life also brings true and deep bonding to the community and each community feels bonded to all of the other communities around the world – even if they have some serious philosophical and political differences.
            That’s a great strength you bring to the table. It seems like a deficit but it’s actually an asset. I also wasn’t raised “Jewish”, i.e. with faith and halacha. If I were Hashem, I would have done many things differently. There are many ways the world runs that go against my sensitivities. But alas, I am not Hashem. It’s amazing to me that a person like myself is actually a believing and practicing Torah Jew. But I’ve been on the path for over 25 years now and haven’t gone away from it once, at least not the main parts of shabbat, kashrut, family purity, tzedaka, learning, tefillin, prayer at least once a day.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hello Alan
            Sorry, that should say Jewish non believers!!!!!!!!

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            Ok. So Jewish non-believers post-Christ, and the Jewish people in general pre-Christ are prophet killers, god killers and hostile to all men? I just want to make sure you agree this is what Paul is saying in the NT.

          • Paul Summers says:

            Hi Alan
            Ok. So Jewish non-believers post-Christ, and the Jewish people in general pre-Christ are prophet killers, god killers and hostile to all men? I just want to make sure you agree this is what Paul is saying in the NT.

            Well we’ve got the right periods of time right, but the message isn’t directed towards ALL Jews. Its directed primarily at the Jewish leaders. The men in positions of power and influence within the Jewish law, temple service etc. It is these individuals that Jesus had the most friction with. If you read the Gospel accounts the common everyday Jewish person were looking up to the leaders for guidance. Its these leaders who swung the minds of the people against Jesus.
            You will see the account in Mathew CH 23.

            If you read Acts, Peter, Paul, John are having the same issues with the Jewish leaders not Jews in general.

            Read Romans, and see how much love and dedication Paul has for His own brethren the Jew.

          • RT says:

            If you want to translate “Jews” as “Judean Leaders” it really does not work. If you want to do that, you have to pick and choose which passage should use “Judean Leader” and which one should use “Jews” on your own assumption.

            Look at John 6:
            Passover, the Jewish feast, was near.
            4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
            ———————-
            Some of the Judeans[f] started to grumble about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” Tree of life

            The Jews then complained about Him
            ————————-
            Then the Jews began arguing with one another
            The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

            This is all the same Greek word “Jews”. Now of course, they translated “Jews” on verse 4. Why do you think that they translate “Judean” on verse 41? Because there was no leaders in the conversation, and could it have been all the Jews complaining? No way, they had to look not anti-Semite! The Judean (the bad guys in this case) are the scape goat of the Tree of life translation. Finally, they translate Jew again, because if they argued, then some most have think that good jews were amongst them. Judean could not possibly be good, they are the bad guys.

            That’s not how we translate the Bible!

        • Alan says:

          CR,
          I tried to dig deep.

          I believe that Hashem created the world from nothing and without His will to constantly recreate the world from nothing the world would revert to nothing. I believe He runs the world and that nothing that happens in the world happens without His consent. I believe Hashem has planted within each human being an “image of G-d”.

          What this “image of G-d” means is a whole other discussion, but one of its main characteristics is freewill – that it is in our hands to choose between good and evil according to the natural moral compass He implanted in us (which usually starts to comes to maturity in the early teenage years) and according to the moral education we receive from our human teachers (parents, teachers, society).

          Hashem gives the human being the freewill to commit atrocities. And Hashem has the freewill to either prevent the atrocity from being carried out or to allow it to happen. What I am getting at is this: just as Hashem is the Author of the 5 Books of Moses and the Source of the prophecies in the Prophets and Writings, so is He the Author and Editor of how the physical world runs – all of the wars, all of the atrocities, all of the natural disasters, all of the diseases, all of the accidents, how animals and insects eat and sometimes torture other animals and insects – Hashem is the Author and Editor of everything.

          Therefore, just as I can be disturbed by some of the events in Tanakh, I can also be disturbed by events in the physical world. Things in the world go against my sensibilities no less than some things in Tanakh do. I don’t have to reject Hashem just because of things I don’t like in Tanakh. I can reject Him for things in the world that I don’t like because as I said before, I believe Hashem is the Author and Editor of the world just as He is the Author and Editor of Tanakh.

          I could choose this nihilistic path and reject Hashem for anything in the world and in Tanakh that I don’t like. But I am not choosing this path. I don’t understand how He runs His world. I don’t understand how He wrote and edited His Tanakh.

          But I believe Judaism is different from all of the other choices I have seen in the world. What Hashem asks of me is not always light and easy. But I thank Him for giving me a path to a well-rounded life of values, morals, integrity, dignity, respect and teshuva IN THIS WORLD.

          And my fellow Jews throughout history, especially the giants in Torah and morals, have also struggled with the same things and they have put their struggles and analyses in writing for us. And despite their difficult questions remaining unresolved, these moral giants continued to lead lives of breathtaking integrity, dignity and teshuva.

          What happens in the World to Come, I don’t know. But the dignity, nobility and integrity that He has given me in this world through His Torah makes me want to choose Him.

        • Alan says:

          CR,
          “When you have the text say something on its face, and then have to write volumes to unpack the intent, is the juice worth the squeeze?”

          The whole episode of David and Batsheva could be explained in one page as in this link:
          https://www.ou.org/torah/nach/a-journey-through-nach/understanding-episode-dovid-batsheva/

          The articles I showed you delve into it more deeply than this one page article and I thought they provided a more satisfying response than this one page article. And the articles I sent you were only 2 relatively short articles on David and Batsheva, 1 article on “the poor man’s lamb” and 1 article on David’s “punishment and repentance”. So it’s really not such a big squeeze. However, the audio classes are more involved and also devote a lot of time to explaining a lot of fundamentals of Judaism that are necessary to understanding the episode.

          Most and maybe all stories in Tanakh can be explained on a simple level as well as on deeper and deeper levels. The reason I didn’t initially send you the 1 page article from ou.org is because I didn’t think it would be satisfying to you. I thought the articles on etzion.or.il would have been more of what you were looking for.

          • LarryB says:

            Alan
            I just read most of the article you posted and it seems some are trying to say that Dovid did not commit a sin with Batsheva. But the fact that Uriyah “did” come back from war after Batsheva was pregnant with Dovids child didn’t that make it a sin? Had Dovid never sent for Uriyah and he was killed in war and never came back then it would not have been a sin I could understand.

          • Alan says:

            Hi Larry, I’m very happy to see you back.

            “I just read most of the article you posted and it seems some are trying to say that Dovid did not commit a sin with Batsheva.”
            Everyone says he sinned, including the verses in Tanakh. There is only one sage who says he didn’t sin and that was a descendant of David and the most he could have meant was that David did not technically commit the sin of adultery. But everyone agrees he committed sins. Most do not feel he committed the sin of adultery technically. There are very good proofs for this in the verses themselves.

            “But the fact that Uriyah “did” come back from war after Batsheva was pregnant with Dovids child didn’t that make it a sin?”
            It was a sin but most likely not technically adultery because she was still not married to Uriyah when he came back.

            “Had Dovid never sent for Uriyah and he was killed in war and never came back then it would not have been a sin I could understand.”
            It definitely would not have been the technical sin of adultery but it still most likely would have been a sin.

            I think you would like reading the articles I posted from etzion.org.il .
            I find them much more satisfying than the 1 page article.

          • LarryB says:

            Alan
            When a soldier came back did they have to remarry?

          • Alan says:

            Was the divorce a conditional divorce or an unconditional divorce? I don’t think we know for sure anymore.

            What was a conditional divorce? There could be a few different versions:

            IF HE DOESN’T RETURN –
            1. They were divorced retroactively (from the time he handed her the divorce document she has been a divorced lady).
            2. They were not divorced retroactively (she doesn’t become a divorced lady until it is clear he is not returning).

            IF HE DOES RETURN –
            1. They were divorced retroactively but there is no need to remarry.
            2. They were divorced retroactively and they must remarry.
            3. They were not divorced retroactively and there is no need to remarry.

            The Jewish people stopped doing this long before the mishnah was written so we don’t remember exactly how it was done anymore. Or it could have been done in more than one way but we don’t know which way Uriyah did it. And the truth is – we are not even sure that he did it at all.

          • Nikola says:

            I have to say that there’s not much logic in the interpretation of the “Soldier Gett” as a final document that abolishes ongoing marriage. In that case, soldier who comes back from the war and remarry same woman would violate Torah. So it’s clear that Batsheva committed adultery. As per David, he also committed adultery because he slept with a woman who was not yet his own wife, and was not immediately intending on marrying her.

            Besides, the most logical explanation of the whole episode is that David was hoping that Uriyah will go and sleep with his wife and they will think that the baby is actually Uriyah’s, and everyone will move on.
            That didn’t work, so David piled up sin upon sin by killing Uriyah.
            In my opinion the moral of the story is that no matter how grave the sin is, there is a room for repentance, with some consequences as well (instead of living calm life David had to deal with Absalom’s betrayal, and death). The important fact is that David did not sin afterwards, hence fulfilling requirements from the Ezekiel 18:21-22.

            With all this in mind, the “David apologists” are really doing disservice to Tanakh in my opinion.

          • Alan says:

            Nikola,

            You wrote “In that case, soldier who comes back from the war and remarry same woman would violate Torah.”

            Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this?

    • Dina says:

      Connie, I was talking about excluding people and you are talking about excluding views; do you see the difference? If you believe you are right about something, then by implication you believe that anyone who disagrees is wrong. But there is a big difference between disagreeing with someone and with writing off their humanity.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Do you think all Christians right off the humanity of others? Do you not think they have commentaries that explains things in their books that sound awful just as Judaism has?

        When I was a Christian, I never wrote off anyones humamity, because the whole premise of my former faith was saving all of humanity.

        The premise that everyone dies because of sins does not require the Christian Bible to believe in.

        All of himanity already dies, good or evil, and even the most righteous people die because G-d decides such.

        G-d himself has flooded the whole earth man woman and child, only to have sin reemerge after a short while, after such a bloody episode.

        Wicked people (or what the Bible deems as wicked people) are written off in Tanakh too, or cut off as it says.

        How much killing off of whole nations, or populations is openly discussed in the Christian text?

        I wasnt introduced to the idea that G-d can kill literally everyone good or evil based on his choice by the Christian’s source text.

        The Tanakh showed me the Israelite 1st born killed, Egypt’s 1st born killed in retaliation (after hardening Pharoah’s heart, in part, made sure the people wouldnt leave Egypt yet.)

        Tanakh showed the conquest of Canaan (what manifest destiny was based on btw.)

        If anything, the Christian texts taken by themselves provide a very abstract notion of eternal suffering with fire for WICKED CHRISTIANS and also for non believers, but the Christian Bible openly says that people are only judged for what they know.

        As I mentioned, many orthodox Christian sources actually talk about “hell fire” as being what happens when a person who doesnt want to be with G-d is with him.

        The righteous experience eternal goodness of G-d’s presence, the wicked eternal anguish in G-d’s presence.

        I am not making light of Christian horrors against Jews, just noting that when it comes to the vivid descriptions of the fate of wicked people, the NT is somewhat more abstract than Torah.

        • Dina says:

          I should have been more clear and not used the expression “write off the humanity.”

          Here we go again, then:

          Connie, I was talking about excluding people and you are talking about excluding views; do you see the difference? If you believe you are right about something, then by implication you believe that anyone who disagrees is wrong. But there is a big difference between disagreeing with someone and with sending them to hell for their views.

          Christians are comfortable with sending billions of people to hell simply for not accepting a particular belief. Muslims as well. Jews refuse to do that, and herein lies the difference.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            You are right, there are fundamental differences of interpretation. Herein is the point I’m making Dina. Judaism can 100% disagree with eternal hell for sinners (a fact Im glad Judaism disagrees with,) but you have Jewish sources now and in the past that accomidate the presence of that belief.

            Hell is abstract in Christian theology, as it is in Jewish theology. The Church itself teaches many different things. The Church even has purgatory and the merit of the saints because even Christians dislike their own notion of hell and want to escape the notion. Christians couldnt be more uncomfortable with hell.

            Here is a story for you.

            One of my relatives was an atheist and he passed (without my sharing the gospel.) I cried my eyes out thinking (as a matter of protestant belief) that he was simply going to hell.

            It wasnt until I later studied Christian eastern.orthodoxy and Catholicism, that I realized I hadnt even understood the breadth of different perspectives on salvation/hell present within my own Christian tradition.

            Turns out that for Catholics and Orthodox a person’s deeds matter when it comes to their fate.

            Its Not as simple as do you or dont accept Christianity.

            IF YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE Christians are comfortable with hell, you dont understand them as well as you think.

            You once told me that my readings of Christian scripture (which you thought were nice and could have saved lives in the past if they had been heeded) were irrelevant because such readings were mine alone.

            As I told Alan, the problem is that nobody can control anyones interpretation, even when they claim authority to do so.

            I have read Jewish sources that say scary horrid things will happen to sinners, and that there are no guarantees of reward for non Jews. Fire and brinstone rabbis exist within your tradition too. There are sources on the level with Christian hell, no less scary.

            Jews in Jesus’ time in fact were unsure of the fate of other equally observant Jews from other sects. It was a messed up time.

            So, while I agree with you that Christian notions of hell, and the exclusion of people are awful, or that salvation only for the chosen Christian is awful, I cant say that those ideas are unknown to Judaism, even though they are unpopular and minority views.

            Also, Christians themselves are held captive by these notions, and they dont like them any more than you do.

            They have to believe in it because they believe their religion is true, even though I assure you, Christians dont like the doctrine either.

            Penn Gilette once said that he hated the Christian hell, and hated the exclusion of others, but he noted that Christians thhemselves preached at him BECAUSE THEY WANT NOBODY TO GO THERE.

            Its not their fault they believe their claims are real.

            I grew up in a mindset of fear of demons, Satan, and hell. It wasnt my fault I believed in such things, and I didnt want anyone to go to hell.

            As a Christian I did believe (in spite of hell) in G-d’s justice. I believed G-d was a just judge.

            Penn Gilette said, “If someone really believes hell is real, isnt it commendable in a round about way that they dont want you to go there?”

            They are victims of their faith’s truth claims.

            You are upset that Christians exclude others from their heaven, but do you honestly want to be included in that version of the world to come?

            I understand being upset at Christian horrors like pogroms, genocide, etc. but the scary thing is their book doesnt encourage such things.

            They had to look to episodes like Elijah and the false prophets to engage in “faith tests” or disputations in the real world.

            Something to always keep in mind about Christian hell, is that in Christian sources and tradition, hell is 1st for the wicked Christian.

            Its fortunate that Judaism doesnt take all of its folklore seriously. Unfortunately, one sect of Jews decided to take sone of that minority folklore more literally, and they spread it worldwide.

          • Alan says:

            CR,
            The truth is there are widely accepted rabbinic writings that speak about the exceedingly painful sufferings in purgatory. I think these ideas didnt originate in Judaism though. I think they predate the Jewish people if I’m remembering correctly. Thank God that most Jews throughout history have not been preoccupied with it and haven’t used this as an essential reason to serve God nor as a fundamental principal of faith.

          • Alan says:

            CR,
            What does Judaism say about the eternal fate of Jews who are not loyal to the most basic requirements of being a Jew? And what does it say about the eternal fate of non-Jews who are not loyal to the most basic requirements of being a human being?

            The first thing we have to accept before we answer these questions is that ONLY HASHEM KNOWS. Human beings do not know and shouldn’t claim to know. Hashem takes into account everything about the person. It’s not cut and dry. Oh, you didn’t keep shabbos? No olam habah for you. Oh, you pray to Jesus? Oh, no olam habah for you. This is a gray area of halacha and one of the reasons it’s gray is because we’re dealing with real life which is extremely complicated and only Hashem has all of the information about a person to pass judgement. This is something a human being cannot judge. So even though the Torah says that the punishment for a Jew who desecrates shabbat on purpose is spiritual excision (with 2 witnesses giving him warning and letting him know the punishment, there is capital punishment if the sinner continues at that moment of warning – and only when there is a Sanhedrin and when all Jews keep shabbat), we can’t know today who is “cut off” and who is not. There are many extenuating reasons today and throughout much of Jewish history. The same thing applies to non-Jews. The plain black and white laws that you might see in a code of Jewish law cannot so readily be applied to all time periods, especially not when it comes to eternal reward and punishments which is something human beings cannot judge. Deuteronomy 32:4 – “The Rock, His work is wholesome; for all His ways are justice; a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and straight is He.” In my mind, there is no way that Hashem will destroy a person eternally who is basically trying to be decent, even if he/she sometimes falls and makes mistakes. If they are trying to be decent, I don’t from Judaism that we must say that Hashem will destroy their souls because they didn’t accept the Torah upon themselves. Of course, a person might lose out on a lot if they don’t try as hard as they could be trying. I also believe that the Torah helps a person achieve the highest level of growth that is humanly possible – well-rounded growth. And this doesn’t mean that a person who doesn’t accept the Torah can’t grow spiritually. To say so is pure nonsense and not according to what we see in reality.

          • Dina says:

            Connie, this is a very good explanation that is fair to both sides. However, my point still stands. Jews are much more spiritually generous to others than Christians and Muslims.

    • Paul Summers says:

      Hi Alan
      We seem to be going round and round in a perpetual circle of debate which either one of us is not reading what one has been shown, or one of us isn’t explaining a very basic subject very well??

      I honesty don’t think I can explain this subject anymore. I’m more than sure in my heart that I’ve given all I can on the subject.
      In my opinion, for what’s its worth, I think what ever is explained and proven from the texts, you will find some how to disagree.
      You will either see the truth or reject it.

      Thanks again Alan for the time spent, but I’m done here on this subject.

      Shalom.

      • Alan says:

        Paul Summers,

        Thank you too.

        • Alan says:

          I’m just glad that Paul Summers doesn’t consider me to be a god-killer, prophet-killer, displeasing to god, hostile to all men, with the utmost wrath of god upon me. Because even though I do not accept Jesus, I am not a rabbi. I guess Rabbi B is not so lucky.

      • Alan says:

        Paul Summers,

        I just remembered that I asked you the following question and I’m still waiting for an answer –

        How is it possible that we see non-Christians (such as Jews) serving God according to your definition of serving God when you claim that this is impossible? How can you say it’s impossible when we see it happening?

        • PAUL SUMMERS says:

          Hello Alan

          What you see, is just that, you see it. However The God of Israel see’s it differently. He see’s it as just works of men with no faith.
          As stated on occasions previously you need to read scripture from whats written, not what you want it to say. An atheist can do good works, but that doesn’t mean that person is serving God.

          • Alan says:

            I’m as good as an atheist?
            The born-again Christian who inspired me to find this blog told me that he and I serve the same God, the God of Israel. Now you’re telling me I don’t serve the God of Israel?

          • RT says:

            Alan, 99% of Christian would say that you are unsave and deserving of hell. The NT says that many times. “Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

            Can you possibly serve G-d and still deserve His wrath? I don’t think so, so Paul prefers to think that you serve another god. When we come to it, who has a better chance of serving G-d? The one that follows the Tanach, or those who follow Jesus?

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            You believe me that my born-again Christian friend used to love telling me that he and I both serve the God of Israel?
            But Paul Summers who’s also a born-again Christian thinks I serve an alien god or that I’m equivalent to an atheist?

          • PAUL SUMMERS says:

            Hello Alan

            Mathew Ch 10 v 33
            John Ch 10 v 27
            Are you saying that you can do better works than a atheist, or a atheist is below you?

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I’m saying I only serve the God of Israel and no other gods. My born-again friend told me that he serves the same God as I do.

          • RT says:

            Alan, Paul is right as per NT, you and I are doomed to hell. Your friend might say/think that you serve the same G-d as him, but did you ever ask him if he thinks you will finish in hell? That might not be the same answer. I am not saying he is dishonest, but if I have a friend, he might have felt bad to tell you that. If not, his view might not be orthodox, and most Christians would consider your friend unsaved by denying the Super-Power of the blood of the Lamb!

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            I couldn’t get him to tell me directly “you are going to hell” or “your soul will perish”. But he said it indirectly.

          • RT says:

            Alan, your friend or Paul? I agree that Paul believes that. You should ask your friend, even if he think you believe in the same G-d, he might not believe you will be with him in heaven…

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            My friend couldn’t bring himself to tell me directly.

      • LarryB says:

        There is a God; lol 🙂

        • PAUL SUMMERS says:

          Alan

          Read the Bible, Start at Genesis and stop at Malachi. Once you’ve done that start with the NT. Its your only hope on all your questions.
          X

          • Alan says:

            Paul,
            I asked you what service of God consists of and you told me that it’s in 1 Timothy 14 (I think). All of those works there are exactly what I am trying to do with my life. Timothy doesn’t say “serve Jesus” he says “serve God”. When I pray, I pray to the God of Israel. When I control my urges I do it with the God of Israel in mind. When I do kindness I do it with the God of Israel in mind. Show me where Timothy 14 says if you don’t serve Jesus you don’t serve the God of Israel.

          • RT says:

            Alan, Read a real Tanakh, start at Geneis and finish at 2 Chronicle. I would suggest for you to use the Stone Tanach… but the JBS can be fine as well. Once you done that and you realize Jesus was nowhere to be found, wonder where that new god-man comes from.

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            I’ll look into that Stone Tanakh. Thanks!

          • RT says:

            Got confused, I meant Paul 🙂

          • Paul Summers Let’s start with Genesis 1:1 – is everything in heaven and earth created by God? Or is Jesus an exception to the rule? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  29. “my close friend who I trusted and who ate my bread has lifted up his heel against me”

    since john clipped the bits ” he who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me”

    i ask, why did john remove the bits about trusting ?

    trust
    trʌst/Submit
    noun
    1.
    firm belief in the reliability, truth, or ability of someone or something.

    now john wouldn’t want his jesus to trust in judas, otherwise it would mean jesus didn’t know he would get caught off guard by judas.

    • what is interesting is the language used

      “Truly I say to you, in the renewed world, when the Son of Man is sitting on the throne of his glory, you (disciples) also will be seated on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28; cf. Luke 22:30)”

      jesus seems to be implying that judas is truly going to get rewarded . it is almost like a guarantee indicating that the author of matthew took oral tradition in which jesus did not know of being betrayed by judas.

      compare to john
      13.12-21
      in the above verses from the synoptics there is no wording like
      ” i am not speaking of you all; i know WHOM i have CHOSEN ….”

      you see how the language changes the later the account is written ?

    • Alan says:

      MHC,
      This is a brilliant insight!!!!!

  30. Eleazar says:

    Alan wrote “It’s amazing to me that a person like myself is actually a believing and practicing Torah Jew. But I’ve been on the path for over 25 years now and haven’t gone away from it once, at least not the main parts of shabbat, kashrut, family purity, tzedaka, learning, tefillin, prayer at least once a day.”

    Having spoken to Alan personally, he is almost what one could call “a born-again Jew”. At the risk of sounding weird, if he were a Christian most of my Christian friends would refer to him as “very Christlike”.

    • Alan says:

      Middle of the road is best. Regular person who can get along with all kinds of people is best. Thanks to my son I am learning to appreciate why Hashem created ice hockey in the world. My son is a big strong ice hockey player, not like his dad. They didn’t tell me I could get a son so different from me when I went to “baal teshuva” yeshiva. So I have to learn how to relate to and really care about what’s important to him. We all bring different assets to the table.

  31. Paul Summers says:

    Hello YPF

    Exodus CH 31 v 13

    The perpetual covenant was given to Ethnic Israel, the Jews.

  32. Paul Summers says:

    Hello RT

    And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

    Yes, it is possible to SERVE G-d without Jesus. POINT PROVEN!

    I never stated that Israel didn’t or couldn’t serve God pre Christ.

    I also never said that a Jew couldn’t serve God post Christ.

    The points I have made previously are that through Bible history only a remnant of true faithful Jews have, by faith followed God. The book of Jeremiah clearly shows this, and of course the NT.

    I have many Jewish friends who serve God today through Yeshua.

    John the Baptist served God pre Christ death, so covenantaly and positionally he served God under the Mosaic Law.

  33. Sister Dina. Thank you for the enlightening argument again. However i still don’t see that Deuteronomy 18 compliments the acts of Pharisees and Saducees in Mt.12:38
    In Deut.18, where did God command His people to ask for a sign? Didn’ t he command simply to discern?

    It seems to me that Moses sometimes got angry at the people’s asking for divine miracle.

    If you read carefully Mt.12:40
    The Jonah’ s sign Yeshua would show did not include “resurrection,” only “death.”

    Mt. 26:57 & 27:62 etc, proves that Many religious leaders like Pharisees, Saducees, priests and elders witnessed and knew upon the death of Yshua;

    • RT says:

      Compare Gideon with Ahaz (Isaiah 7). In the Hebrew Bible, it is clear that those who are righteous ask signs and those who are not refrain from it. The G-d of the Bible never refused signs and never got angry when people asked for it.

      • Alan says:

        RT,
        The halacha is that we MUST test someone who claims to be a prophet. We must put him through the ropes, with respect and honor of course.

    • Eleazar says:

      If you read carefully Mt.12:40
      The Jonah’ s sign Yeshua would show did not include “resurrection,” only “death.”

      Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

      The mention of three days implies an end to his being in the earth, and was a direct comparison to Jonah’s three days. ” For as”, means “in the same way” , which in context means “for the same amount of time”. Were it just about “dying” and not resurrecting, then the amount of days would be completely irrelevant as would be any reference to Jonah. But then that is your goal, right? To make the words “sign” and “three days and three nights” irrelevant because it has been proven that this “sign” was never given to the people it was promised to.

      Your interpretation is entirely your own and no other Christian apologist in almost 2000 years has dared make any such similar comment on this text. Every other Christian responds to this text by saying the following:

      “In Jewish time reckoning, any part of a day counted as a whole day. Thus, one hour before sunset counts as an entire day and one hour after sunset counts as an entire day. Therefore part of Friday= day 1, all of Saturday= day 2, part pf Sunday= day 3, prophecy fulfilled.”

      Now you and I, as well as every Jew and Noachide here, knows that this Christian explanation of time reckoning is a deceptive lie. Even of we grant the “any part of a day equals a whole”, Jesus said “three days AND three nights”, not “three days”. In other words, three day times and three night times, not three calendar days, as the Christian apologist deceptively tries to pull off. Beyond that, the Christian ignores the fact that Jesus never showed himself as “the sign” he promised. Because you know this, you then try to use a different explanation, that Jesus was not speaking of resurrection, but only of dying. This, of course, is no better than the standard Christian explanation, and in fact ignores the context of the statement by Jesus.

  34. PAUL SUMMERS says:

    Hello YPF
    Of course Israels national salvation is the climax of Gods promises. Those verses from Isaiah are surely detailing Israels redemption by God, which of course is still future.
    Aren’t those texts to do with salvation post exile via Messiah. You seem to have quoted them in the present tense?
    Israel has still got go through the times of Jacobs trouble before those Isaiah passages come into fruition?

  35. Concerned Reader says:

    Paul Summers, you were saying to Alan that he serves G-d via works of men, and therefore not at all.

    Which works of men?

    keeping the Sabbath day holy? That’s a textual command

    Kosher? That’s also textual

    Tefillin and TzitTzit ( derived from the text, which Jesus kept also, but which is not directly in the written text?)

    Paul Summers Said: “What you see, is just that, you see it. However The God of Israel see’s it differently.”

    Paul Summers, Something you should know is that you cannot read G-d’s mind.

    I have a friend who is a street preacher, and this is one of our biggest pet peeves. You do not know the heart or mind of the G-d of Israel any better than a Jewish person knows it.

    By telling this man that he does not serve G-d, you prove the apostle Paul’s point about the wrongs of self justification.

    You believe you are justified and blameless because you are a follower of Jesus, and Alan isn’t because he does not follow Jesus.

    You are placing yourself in the seat of G-d, the epitome of the wrongdoing that the Apostle Paul spoke about.

    The idea that you could say such a thing to Alan shows that you must not understand Paul of Tarsus’ whole point about works of the law, and why they can be a source of sin.

    Have you ever noticed that the message Paul gives to Jews about works of the law, he also warns Jewish and gentile Christians about in regards to works of the gospel? IE not to eat of the Eucharist unworthily for example?

    IE Paul says “DO EVERYTHING WITHOUT GRUMBLING AND ARGUING” (Philppians 2:14)

    He says the doer of the work is the one who is justified and not the hearer (Romans 2:13)

    Observing the commandments of G-d as Jews do (including kosher, shabbat, etc.) is not wicked in any sense, nor is it an attempt at self justification before G-d as you believe. Following those commands are not works of men.

    Look at Paul of Tarsus himself so you can see the prime example of what Paul of Tarsus actually meant by problems of works of the law.

    Paul (according to his own testimony) sought to make trouble for and maybe even kill the students of Jesus by handing them over to Rome. IE Paul, (though he was also a Jew) was self righteous in the eyes of the Torah.

    The man sought to do harm to his own fellow observant Jewish people because he thought his view of the Torah was the only valid one.

    That is what it means to be under the curse of the law, and being justified by works according to Paul.

    When a Sadducee would seek to harm a Pharisee, or a Samaritan, would seek to harm a Jew, that is works of the law.

    what you had in that situation was groups of people who were all keeping the Torah’s commands in accordance with their own conscience, but trying to harm each other at the same time, and thereby they were undermining the entire goal of the Torah in the 1st place.

    Christians today come to Jews and say “hey, why not abandon Kosher?”

    “Hey, why try and keep Shabbat? Its too hard, and you should stop and accept Jesus!”

    All you do when you accuse a Jew of cleaving to works is cement in their minds the idea that Jesus was wicked lawbreaker and wanted to drive Jews from the commandments.

    IT IS TORAH THAT FORCES A JEW TO BE OBSERVANT OF TORAH COMMANDS IN ALL GENERATIONS AND WHERE TORAH IS CALLED THE COVENANT OF LOVE. (Deuteronomy 7:9)

    • Alan says:

      CR,
      This was really great. I thank you very much for it. And thanks for reminding me of that beautiful verse in Deuteronomy 7 and your putting it in the words Covenant of Love – keeping the commandments is a covenant of love. I never heard the verse put that way before but I think it is an excellent and true reading even if not verbatim.

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