The greatest light is God’s truth. The greatest happiness of humanity is to receive that light – and God promised that humanity will one day merit to receive that light (Isaiah 60:3). At the time of creation, God planted certain basic truths into the hearts of human beings. This is our ability to sense right from wrong, to enjoy truth and to be repulsed by falsehood. God also chose a nation for Himself, and He planted certain truths into the heart of this nation (Deuteronomy 4:35). For many centuries the Jewish people walked with this truth, but their Gentile neighbors did not appreciate it. The miracles that God performed for Hezekiah represented a turning point in history. From that point on, the Gentile nations began to seek the God of Israel (Isaiah 19:18). The phenomena of Gentiles seeking the God of Israel continued to grow – until the time of…
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1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
Rabbi you are right to say that “Christians taught the world that the Jewish people are ‘false witnesses.'”
I think one of the reasons is that there are several accounts in the N.T. that do influence with this wrong image of the Jewish people.
Take the persecution of Stephen for example in Acts 6:13 -14 “they set false witnesses, saying this man keep speaking words against this holy place and the Law. Indeed we have heard him saying that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and will change the customs that Moses delivered to us”
This gave many Christians the impression that Jewish people were false witnesses. However, is that what the author is trying to say? No! I believe it is trying to say that a true Christian like Stephen does NOT speak against the temple and the Mosaic Law and customs!!
Those who heard the long sermon of Stephen and saw his angelic face tried to kill him. Were they called “false witnesses?” No. Acts 7:58 says “the WITNESSES laid aside their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.” As the prophet Elijah threw the garment onto Elisha to transfer (?) the prophetic ministry symbolically, the persecutors laid their garments onto Saul so that Saul persecute the church in order for the church to scatter throughout Judea and Samaria and preach the Gospel. The prophecy of gospel witnessing beyond Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria, spoken by Yeshua (Acts 1:8) has been fulfilled due to their persecution.
The Jewish persecutors and the Pharisee Saul were all witnesses of God’ s work providentially.
SAUL did not start the gospel ministry after the Damascus conversion, he already started when the persecutors’ garments were put on his feet.
Without SAUL’ s persecution on David, David would not have become the king as God designed him to be. Without SAUL’ s persecution on church, church would not have become the light to the nations as God purposed her to be.
Gean Guk Jeon yes or no? Is it true testimony or false testimony when the Jewish people tell the world that the heart of every human being belongs to the God who created that hearty and to Him alone? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
True Testimony!! The heart of every human being bears the mark of God’s image and the HIS law, Paul calls it conscience.
Jewish people, whether they reject the Gospel or not, their existence and their fearless devotion to God have made the history HIS story!
Gean,
Yes or no – is it true testimony when the Jewish people tell the world that the heart of every human being belongs only to God and not to God together with a being who is either 100% man or 100% man and 100% god?
Rabbi~ Shalom!
I am supposed to lead Early Morning Prayer meeting with Isaiah 9:6 at 5:00am here in S. Korea.
The child is called everlasting Father ad mighty God?? I personally dont like the term Trinity but a little stuck in this verse. Please help me, or anyone can help me~
Gean,
First try to figure out who the child. Google it. When you know who the child is, we’d be happy to discuss your question.
I dont know bro! Just tell me who thw child is! And how Judaism teaches! Thanks for quick response.
King Hezekiah: according to Judaism, in ISA 9:5 the righteous King Hezekiah, a child of King Ahaz, is called Prince of Peace by God. The Hebrew term Sar-shalom in Isaiah 9:5 of the Hebrew Tanakh translates as ‘Prince of Peace’.
Gean,
A thank you would be nice.
For a clue, look at Rezin, the king of Syria.
Isaiah 7:8
For the head of Syria is Damascus, And the head of Damascus is Rezin. Within sixty-five years Ephraim will be broken, So that it will not be a people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Isaiah 8:6
“Inasmuch as these people refused The waters of Shiloah that flow softly, And rejoice in Rezin and in Remaliah’s son;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Isaiah 9:11
Therefore the Lord shall set up The adversaries of Rezin against him, And spur his enemies on,
If Rezin is in Isaiah 7 to Isaiah 9:11, the Child talked to in Isaiah 9:6 must be alive during Rezin’s life.
Also, your translation is not necessary wrong, but could also be render as follow:
5.For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”
Finally names don’t necessary mean that the child will be G-d. Look at Jeremiah 33:16
And this is the name whereby she (Jerusalem) shall be called, YHVH is our righteousness.
Thank you RT!
Gean, do you agree that Jeremiah 23 talks about the messiah?
I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the Lord.
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[a]
“Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”
If so, does that fit Jesus? See my comments in bracket…
David a Branch of righteousness
(the credential of Jesus are at least doubtful. We cannot even conclude that he was from the house of David. From Matthew, Josef is not his father and there is the curse of Jechoniah. And from Luke, the line goes from Nathan, while the messiah needs to come from Solomon. Furthermore, the lineage is always from the father side, not from the mother side.)
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
(A LITERAL KING WILL REIGN AND EXECUTE JUDGMENT ON THE EARTH)
In His days:
(WHILE HE IS STILL ALIVE)
Judah will be saved,
(JUDAH WILL BE SAVED FROM THEIR ENEMIES. SAVED DOES NOT MEAN SAVED FROM SINS)
And Israel will dwell safely;
(THIS EXPOND ON THE SALVATION OF JUDAH. SAVED = DWELL SAFELY IN THE LAND)
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
(SAME WORD TO DESCRIBE JERUSALMEN AND TO DESCRIBE THE MESSIAH THIS MEANS THAT THE MESSIAH WILL BE IN ACCORD WITH HIS PEOPLE, NOT AGAINST THEM AND CURSING THEM)
As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”
(THE MESSIAH, WHO IS A LITERAL KING WILL BRING THE JEWS BACK TO THEIR LAND, WHILE HE IS STILL ALIVE).
This passage is clearly speaking about the messiah, both Jews and Christians agree. It shows clear expectation of what the messiah will do. Jesus never did that, and this is not a second coming prophecy. Also, it makes not sense to take it in a spiritual level. This debunk the claims of Jesus as the messiah.
Gean Hezekiah means “mighty God” – search in the window for Isaiah 9 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Oh! That is right! I remember the Hebrew word Hazaq. Thanks Rabbi!
Wouldn’t Yah-hazak mean mighty God; and Hizukyah mean Might of God and Hizki-yah (Hezekiah) mean My strength is God?
Yes!
True testimony!
As far as i understand Tanakh and N.T.,
the most influential proponent of that testimony is Yeshua who showed the fellow human how to faithfully Serve HIM Only and obey the heart of God the Creator.
“There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy 2:5
Gean
Are you saying serve Jesus only, and obey God?
My question is this: is it ok to praise and obey the Word of God like David did in Psalm 119? To Serve or to worship is עובד right?
In Tanakh the wordעובד is used not only to Hashem but also between the men of God. How should we understand this?
Gean,
I’m sorry but I don’t understand what your are asking about the word “oved”. It means to work or to serve. The God of Israel doesn’t want us to serve words, not even his words. He doesn’t want us to serve the Torah or His commandments. He only wants us to serve Him. He has let us know how to serve Him through written and spoken words. So I’m not sure what you’re asking.
How do we serve God? Without His words and commands and Torah, how do we know Him, His will, and His desire for us to serve? How do we obey Him without hearing His words? Isnt it legitimate to say we serve and obey and work for His Words ?
Gean,
It is completely wrong to say we serve or work for God’s words. God’s words are not Him. They are the medium He uses to communicate with people. If we follow His words we are doing it to follow Him. It is pure idolatry to make His words into the boss.
Ok make sense and very clear brother.
Let me ask you.
The creator God is only one who stands FOREVER and all other creatures are not eternal. It is right or wrong?
Gean,
Only the Father is intrinsically eternal. He can share his enternity with people but our enternity is dependent on His independent eternity.
Amen.
Also the word of our God is eternal too in Isaiah 40:8?
“The word of our God will endure forever”.
Gean, do you think the Tanakh is saying that God’s words are also gods to be worshiped. Is this what you think this verse means? Do you think it’s possible to understand this verse in a way that doesn’t make a god out of words?
Gean,
Using your logic that anything that is called eternal is God, from the following two verses you can make for yourself a few gods. You can make the seed of David god and also the sun and the moon god!
Psalms 89: 37-38 –
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before Me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon; and be steadfast as the witness in sky.’ Selah
The sun, moon and seed of David are eternal, so let’s worship them too! Gean, could this possibly be what the Tanakh meant?
And while were at it, let’s make some more gods.
Psalms 100:5 –
“For the LORD is good; His kindness endureth for ever” – let’s worship God’s kindness.
Daniel 12:3 –
And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn the many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. – let’s worship people who influence many to keep the commandments, after all, these people will shine eternally. They must be god too. See what you can do with the Tanakh if you make it your plaything?
I like it too Alan.
Your argument is so strong.
Let me ask you another one.
The word of God is creature
Like sun, moon, seed of David?
I mean the word of God is something God creates from nothing?
Gean,
Yes, the word of God is a creation from nothing. It’s what He created to communicate with His creatures that have intelligence. Words and thoughts are also creations of His but they are less physical than the sun and the moon.
Thanks for the reply. Then why Torah does not say “in the beginning God created word” first before creating the world through the word?
Gean,
Genesis 1:1 – “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Which beginning did Hashem pick to start the Torah with? Hashem could have started the Torah from a different starting point, but He chose to begin the Torah with the creation of the heaven and the earth, not with creations that proceeded the heaven and earth. Hashem felt it wasn’t necessary for the text to let us know what came before the creation of heaven and earth. But we see that by Hashem’s speech – His words – He brought things into being –
And God said: ‘Let there be light.’ And there was light.
And God said: ‘Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.’
And God said: ‘Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.’ And it was so.
And God said: ‘Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.’ And it was so.
and on and on…..
God created with His words. The Torah just could have said “And God made light”, “And God made the firmament”, “And God made the earth put forth grass”. Instead the Torah let us know that God used speech to create everything.
Also Psalms 33:6 tells us the same: “By the word of Hashem were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
But your answer is in Proverbs chapter 8 which is all about the Torah – God’s words – before he created heaven and earth –
22 The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
27 When He established the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above, when the fountains of the deep showed their might,
29 When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not transgress His commandment, when He appointed the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was by Him, as a nursling; and I was daily all delight, playing always before Him,
31 Playing in His habitable earth, and my delights are with the sons of men. {P}
Gean,
If you read the entire chapter 8 of Proverbs you will that the subject is speaking in the first person and that subject is Wisdom – God’s words – and you will see that it was brought into being from nothing before the heaven and earth were created. Also, if you still want to say that God and His words are one and the same, then you have to also say that everything in heaven and earth is also God because as we see in Genesis 1, everything in creation came into existence from His words – His words are the life of everything. Everything is His words. So you will also be forced into pantheism – that everything is identical with God.
Brother Alan.
If God’s wisdom was created,
Then God was not wise before he created it and had it? There was a time when God was not wise, thinking and acting unwisely?
Gean,
God had wisdom before He started making anything spiritual or physical. Just like we can’t know the true nature of God, we can’t know the true nature of His wisdom and knowledge. His wisdom and knowledge are not like our wisdom and knowledge. Before He could bring finite things into existence He needed to do something with His infinity so it wouldn’t drown out His creations. He had to do something with his infinite wisdom so that His creations could receive it and process it. So He made finite vessels called words that would conceal His infinite wisdom from His creations and that would also reveal as much of it that His creation could handle. Proverbs 8 is speaking about this vessel He made in order to share His infinite wisdom with His finite creations. The vessel is called the Torah and it is composed of other vessels called words.
Only Hashem is infinite. Words are vessels – a finite creation.
Alan
That’s really good!
I’m glad you liked it my precious brother.
hello alan, in judaism do you have a belief in which Gods knowledge is part of him and is an essential attribute of God, but God speaking/communicating his knowledge is not essential attribute because God can CHOOSE WHEN to speak, but God CANNOT choose NOT to know because His knowledge is always part of him?
MHC,
Yes indeed.
Just to expand on what you wrote – God’s infinity is beyond our understanding. We can’t really define or know what His wisdom and knowledge are. They are not separate attributes or parts of Him. He is one and we can’t understand what kind of oneness this is. We only use the words wisdom and knowledge about God metaphorically. There are no pieces or parts or attributes within Him that are “really one” like the trinity.
Brother heathcliff. Thanks for joining and clarifying the ambiguous part of our discussion. Humans have lanuguage system which inherit from the birth, so speaking out those languages does not mean “creating” languages, rather “bringing forth” or “revealing” languages. I think God’s word and wisdom should be understood that way. God fornew His word and wisdom before He speak out.
That is why the Pharisee Paul declared “God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.” in Romans 11:2
Gean,
The Torah says that His word became everything (I showed you the verses) So why do you say that we can only worship Yeshua but nothing else?
Brother, i dont think His word BECAME everything. His word did not become Satan or idols.
Everything became OUTCOME from His word. Both Torah and N.T. teach that God’ s word and wisdom was God’s “partner or coworker” in His creation work, not “material.”
Gean,
Let’s look at Proverbs chapter 8 again –
22 The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was.
30 Then I was by Him, as a nursling; and I was daily all delight, playing always before Him,
Gean, this says that Hashem MADE the Torah and SET UP the Torah. The Torah was “by Him”. Hashem put SOME of His wisdom (which is the same as Himself) into the created vessel called the Torah for the sake of human beings. Human beings can’t grasp ALL of His Wisdom (which is Himself) so Hashem put SOME of His Wisdom into vessels (words of Torah) that we CAN drink from.
Also, His word did become Satan and idols.
Did God ever say “Let there be Satan” and there was Satan?
Gean,
There are plenty of things for which it doesn’t say “And God said let there be”. There are just too many things to list each one in the Torah. For example, it doesn’t say anywhere in Tanakh, “And God said let there be Yeshua”. It actually doesn’t even say “Let there be Messiah”. So since the Torah doesn’t say “Let there be Messiah” can we say that God’s word did not become the Messiah?
Hashem MADE the wisdom in Proverbs 8: 22? Which verb did it use?
Bara ברא to create
Assa עשה to make
Qana קנה to get or to possess or to buy
To create is to make brand new existence from nothing.
To make is to make new existence from something.
To get or to buy is to bring forth or to relocate something which ALREADY Exist!!
Gean,
How do you understand the verb “koneh” in Genesis 14:19? –
יט וַיְבָרְכֵהוּ, וַיֹּאמַר: בָּרוּךְ אַבְרָם לְאֵל עֶלְיוֹן, קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ. 19 And he blessed him, and said: ‘Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth;
Are you saying the heaven and earth always existed?
As far as i know, Koneh is to buy in modern Hebrew. Kanah is to buy or to possess or to get in Tanakh. Right?
I think “possessor of heaven and earth” is better fit than “maker of heaven and earth” because the priest Melchizedek wanted to GIVE blessing to Abaram (maybe by giving bread and wine) in the name of God who possesses everything under heaven and earth. That was the reason why he called Hashem as possessor who possess victory, blessing, tithes and everything!
Yes, kana usually means to acquire ownership of something. But when it’s used about Hashem it doesn’t make sense to say that he acquired ownership of heaven and earth, which is why in this verse it has the connotation of “maker”. So too in this verse from Proverbs –
כב יְהוָה–קָנָנִי, רֵאשִׁית דַּרְכּוֹ: קֶדֶם מִפְעָלָיו מֵאָז. 22 The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.
Are you saying the the verb “kanani” in this verse means that God acquired ownership of something that always existed? Does that make sense? The verse also says “as the beginning of His way”. What does it mean that he took ownership of wisdom as the beginning of His way if you are saying this wisdom is actually Himself and always existed?
24I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. (Proverbs 8:24).
The word for created here is holalti – which means “I was created”. I don’t know how I missed this until now, but I did. The Torah was created as a vessel to contain Hashem’s wisdom – so it IS Hashem’s wisdom but not all of it. A rock is also Hashem’s wisdom – but not all of it. The Torah is composed of words. Don’t worship the words, don’t worship the Torah, worship the Infinite ineffable Father – if you want to call the Father “Wisdom” with a capital W, I have no problem with that. But words, and man, and spirit and soul are all limited creations so don’t worship them.
“He is one and we can’t understand what kind of oneness this is”
yes, i agree. but we all know that 3 things are not 1 thing. and 3 in 1 is not one. we all know this.
MHC,
But Christians convince themselves that 3 in 1 is 1.
“One” according to Judaism and Islam is that there are no distinctions or delineations in God and we can’t give a name to anything that He is – except that he IS. That’s really all we can say about what He is – that he exists. This explains why the main name for Hashem is the tetragramaton – the four letter name which is composed of the words haya (he was), hoveh (he is) and yiyeh (he will be) – He exists and gives existence. That’s really all we can say about WHAT He is. Everything else that He does is just an expression of what He values and wants. As soon as one gives a name to something and says that that something is Him, you have made an idol. Even the names of God are not Him; they are vessels and signs made for the sake of people to facilitate having a relationship with Him.
Gean,
So if you were in a difficult situation, God forbid, and you saw no way out, you would never call out to Yeshua, “Yeshua help me!” because you believe that the only one who runs the world and can save is the Father? And you believe that Yeshua was 100% man and 0% God?
Is it wrong to cry out to God that Gr8 may send His WORDS or Angel?
And is it sin to ask for help God’s anointed king or prophet or angel? If i call “Yeshua help me,” i call him as a mediator between God and men, not as God himself. By the way, i think all the Jews and Christians are called to be the helping hands of God to one another.
Yeshua was 100% man and all men has divine image and some divinity in them. Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term. The NT teaches that The logos of God= word, wisdom, image, power, glory, son OF God.
Gean,
If you think the Father can’t save you without this other thing (Jesus) or you put your trust in this other thing to save you, it’s a big no-no. This violates “You shall serve no other powers” and “You shall have no other powers before Me.” This means not to put your trust in any forms for running the world or running your life.
I don’t understand what you wrote:
“Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”
How did God save Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham, His descendants, Ninevites, Jews in Babylonian Exile and all the nations? Through His Words!! God reveal His salavtion and His power through His Word. I trust 100% in God only. Psalm 119:42 ” … I trust in your Word..”
Gean,
We don’t worship His words. We try our best to fulfill His words in order to serve Him. We serve the Boss, not his ink, not his books, not his prophets.
Amen bro. We serve the Boss by obeying His words and work for His decree and commands and His heart revealed in His words, not by obeying ink and books.
Gean,
We don’t worship His words or His prophets.
What do you mean “worship” in this sentence?
Bow down?
Praise and sing?
Work for?
Trust?
Gean,
By “worship” I mean to recognize in your mind and to feel in your heart that everything you have is a pure gift of love from your Father. Everything good and not so good comes from His love for you and you want to thank Him by giving back to Him, by thanking Him in words, by thanking him by doing what He has asked us to do, by honoring Him and revering Him. To express your recognition and feeling that He is the source of life, He is with you always and He leads you on every step of your life. And you want to thank Him for his words and for the people that He has sent to help you in your life. We are obligated to thank others for the good they have done for us, but we cannot worship them for the good they have done for us. Do you get what I’m trying to say? If it’s not clear please ask further.
Gean,
I don’t understand what you wrote:
“Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”
No! Brother Larry!
Serve HaShem Only ! Yeshua said.
Obey the heart of God the creator!
He showed the example.
You know how the N.T. teaches!
Gean
Thanks for clarifying that we serve and obey God only. Is it ok then to place all my faith in God? If I failed to have faith “not just belief” in God, wouldn’t that stop me from having a close relationship with him?
Absolutely!!
Gean
Sosa why do I need Jesus?
Lb
Brother Larry,
Don’t you need God’s salvation ישוע?
I need it because i know my past is not eligible to be declared righteous before God’s Torah. Many Chrisitans think Yeshua is for our righteousness. Yes but only secondarily. Romans 3:21 declares that “Righteousness of God besides the Torah is revealed!”
How would God judge His people who fail to observe the entire Torah? At the same time, How would God keep His promise of everlasting love and forgiveness upon His people no matter what they have done?
When choosing only one of these- justice and love- will damage His glory and righteousness. So God’ s righteousness has been revealed in what God has done in Yeshua. Not only We need him but God also need him too for His own glory and righteousness.
Gean Guk Jeon More than we need salvation, we need to obey God. It doesn’t make sense that we should get salvation through an act of disobedience. And accepting Jesus is an act of disobedience,
Gean Guk Jeon – please answer this question – who is a more honest servant – a man who obeys every last word his master says but doesn’t see himself as subservient to the master but rather thinks he is an equal or is it the servant who doesn’t perfectly obey every last instruction but knows with every fiber of his being that he is a servant and that the master is master?
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
“More than we need salvation, we need to obey God” Amen rabbi!
I think Salavation is not the result of our obedience to God ; rather, salvation is the motivation for us to obey God.
Please answer this question – who is more happier one? Son who obeys Father but inwardly knows even though he fail to obey, His father would forgive because the Father already paid for it vs. Servant who obeys Master but inwardly knows if he fails to obey, His Master would have to kick him out because of the contract?
“Son who obeys Father but inwardly knows even though he fail to obey, His father would forgive because the Father already paid for it”
Judaism is “Son who tries to obey Father but sometimes fails and inwardly knows even though he fails to obey sometimes , His father would forgive because the Father gave the son the gift of teshuva. And the Father says if you do teshuva, I consider this payment for your mistakes.” This is Judaism. And Christianity slandered the Father to the whole world.
I know brother. Christianity also call the good news as “repentance and forgiveness of sins” in Luke 24:47.
However, the gift of teshuva is what we need to do. Then what did God pay to process our repentance? He certainly has to revoke his promise of judgment right? What Ransom does Judaism have besides repentance?
Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: REPENTANCE shall be hid from mine eyes.”
Repentance is our process to come to God and to be forgiven.
Ransom is the action of God to accept our repentance to forgive us.
“Repentance is our process to come to God and to be forgiven.” – Gean, you should have stopped writing here. The next thing you wrote is not in Tanakh –
“Ransom is the action of God to accept our repentance to forgive us.” This is the slander against the Father. This is the filthy slander that has made humanity hate the Father and his firstborn son, the Jews. You should have stopped after the first sentence.
Gean,
It appears you are trying to deceive people because I assume since you quoted Hoshea you also know the chapter right after the one you quoted –
You quoted:
“Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: REPENTANCE shall be hid from mine eyes.”
You stopped hear to let people think that God will not accept our teshuva without SOMETHING ELSE on top of it (i.e. Jesus’s blood). Gean, are you telling me that you have never read chapter 14, the very next chapter. If you haven’t I apologize for getting upset at you –
ב שׁוּבָה, יִשְׂרָאֵל, עַד, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ: כִּי כָשַׁלְתָּ, בַּעֲוֹנֶךָ. 2 Return, O Israel, unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast stumbled in thine iniquity.
ג קְחוּ עִמָּכֶם דְּבָרִים, וְשׁוּבוּ אֶל-יְהוָה; אִמְרוּ אֵלָיו, כָּל-תִּשָּׂא עָוֹן וְקַח-טוֹב, וּנְשַׁלְּמָה פָרִים, שְׂפָתֵינוּ. 3 Take with you words, and return unto the LORD; say unto Him: ‘Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.
ד אַשּׁוּר לֹא יוֹשִׁיעֵנוּ, עַל-סוּס לֹא נִרְכָּב, וְלֹא-נֹאמַר עוֹד אֱלֹהֵינוּ, לְמַעֲשֵׂה יָדֵינוּ–אֲשֶׁר-בְּךָ, יְרֻחַם יָתוֹם. 4 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses; neither will we call any more the work of our hands our gods; for in Thee the fatherless findeth mercy.’
ה אֶרְפָּא, מְשׁוּבָתָם–אֹהֲבֵם, נְדָבָה: כִּי שָׁב אַפִּי, מִמֶּנּוּ. 5 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely; for Mine anger is turned away from him.
Gean, tell us where the “ransom” is in here? Where is the blood? Where is there even any animal sacrifice? You owe us a big apology.
Gean,
And you misrepresented Hoshea. Hoshea doesn’t even use the word “teshuva” in the verse. Some English translations translate “noham” as repentance but YOU WHO KNOWS SOME HEBREW KNOWS it doesn’t mean teshuva! Admit it to everyone here.
Hoshea 13:14 –
From the clutches of the grave I would ransom them, from death I would redeem them; I will be your words of death; I will decree the grave upon you. NOHAM (REMORSE) shall be hidden from My eyes. ידמִיַּד שְׁאוֹל אֶפְדֵּם מִמָּוֶת אֶגְאָלֵם אֱהִי דְבָרֶיךָ מָוֶת אֱהִי קָטָבְךָ שְׁאוֹל נֹחַם יִסָּתֵר מֵעֵינָי:
Here is the plain explanation of this verse:
“From the clutches of the grave I would ransom them”: I am He Who would ransom them from the clutches of the grave and redeem them from death, but now…
“I will be your words of death”: Heb. אֱהִי דְבָרֶי. I will place Myself to speak of you words of death.
I will decree… upon you: Heb. קָטָבְ. I will decree upon you the decree of the grave.
“Remorse shall be hidden from My eyes”: Heb. נֹחַם. I will not regret this evil. נֹחֵם is an expression of regret (נִחוּם).
Gean Guk Jeon The even happier one is the one who knows his father forgives him because he loves him and accepts his sincere apology 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Gut gezugt (well said), Rabbi B!
Also, if it means that my father has to kill one of his sons, my brother, in order for him to be able to accept my sincere apology, then I really don’t care if he forgives me or not. All I care about is that he should be locked up in the psychiatric ward of a high security prison.
Amen!!
To me, it is great happiness but what about the Father’s heart?
Seems like our Father has a broken heart because everyday He hears the crying out from the innocent blood from the ground which started from Abel.
Since the beginning of history of mankind, how much innocent blood have cried out to God so that He had to do something? I dont know…
“More than we need salvation, we need to obey God” Amen rabbi!
Gean, you talk about the importance of keeping the law, but if all you need to please G-d is to keep the Law, then what advantage do you have to follow Jesus? I am not sure I understand your belief…
What do you need to be “saved”
1) believe that Jesus is the messiah who died for your sins
2) Keeping the Torah
3) both?
Another point that I would want clarification: Who Jesus is?
1) fully god and man
2) A Trinitarian god
3) a lower god than YHVH
4) a human being
5) An angel
6) Other, (Please explain)
Thank you
Gean,
Could you please explain what you meant by:
“Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”
Gean,
Could you please explain what you mean by:
“Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”
Im so sorry late. This one did not appear to my app but found out on the entire page. N.T. never says “Yeshua is God, nor God became flesh.” It says ” The word became flesh.” Theologically speaking, Yeshua as the Word- incarnated has full divinity as one who has full divine attributes. However, ontologically, if Yeshua IS God, it means God died on the cross or God resided only in Israel in around C.E. 30. This is not biblical nor logical.
“The word became flesh.” Theologically speaking, Yeshua as the Word- incarnated has full divinity as one who has full divine attributes. ”
After our discussion about God’s Word, do you still believe His Word is Him? If you do, then you have to go to the beach and worship the ocean and then worship the sun, and the seagulls and worship everything.
Brother Alan, i see your passion for the glory of God. His glory must not be shared with any creature or lifeless and speechless idols. I want always to lift up high the Hashem only.
However i think that He is so generous that He does not feel jealous when He sees His son gets glory. Just like Isaiah 46:13 says “… Israel My glory.”
Through His son Yeshua, the name of the God of Israel and His glory and His Works have been displayed throughout the world, even to this remote country called Korea.
Gean,
“Through His son Yeshua, the name of the God of Israel and His glory and His Works have been displayed throughout the world, even to this remote country called Korea.”
The truth is that through His son Yeshua, His real firstborn son, the Jews, have had their name and blood dragged through the mud for 2000 years.
Brother Alan.
I
Repent
And ask for forgiveness. Christians have been so ignorant. The N.T. records a few episodes that it was the disciples of Yeshua that blocked Jewish people from coming to Yeshua.
Honestly i want to say “i feel more comfortable and safe in Jews and Judaism and i experienced fatherly love from Jews of Yerushalaim than any other Christian congregations.” I know because i used to live in the holy city for 13 months.
So Brother Gean, repent and become Jewish or a Torah-observant Ben Noach! Just like you saw the love of the Jewish people in Israel you will see it even more from Hashem! It sounds like you will be happy if you go back to Israel and live and learn from Torah observant Jews! You can always go back to Korea later.
“Everything is His words. So you will also be forced into pantheism – that everything is identical with God.”
Or into panentheism (where things exist within G-d sustained by godliness) Which many kabbalists actually teach is the case, (some teach this is true metaphorically, others teach it is true literally, hence the problem I have with the entire debate.)
The way kabbalah has it is, If hashem were the sun, (Ein Sof) the cosmos would be like a messy mirror with bits of the diffuse light of the infinite shining through. (The “light” in the mirror is when we see evidence of providence in nature and providence through the acts of the Tzaddikim.)
Moshiach (in this context) is described (even in Torah literature) as the panultimate righteous person second only to Moses.
If providential acts of tzaddikim are like light shining through a dirty mirror, then acts of moshiach will be seen as the light or ” the words” through a polished mirror.
And here is the problem I have. G-d’s words as you stated Alan are the “medium through which G-d works.” IE his puppet strings.
So, while its true that you wouldn’t pray to the moshiach (the vessel through whom G-d will speak,) you would be compelled by scripture to obey that person, or cleave to that person and his example the way one cleaves to Tzaddikim, except that moshiach is the panultimate tzaddik.
This is why Shabbatai Tzvi, Jacob Frank, Eva Frank, Rebbe Nachman, and the Rebbe of Lubavitch all got trapped in a situation where people idolize them, even when these people know the proper definitions of worship.
The meaning of all these metaphors in simple terms is that Moshiach will be the best sock puppet who wont mess up like others have done.
If the “words” existed before creation, and are the medium through which G-d acts, etc. Then the messiah claimant becomes the panultimate sock puppet of hashem through which the words work.
He has titles like gate, door, word, second Adam, the name of hashem, etc. Attached as a metaphor that gets literalized by people, because metaphor or not, the messiah is described as that ideal agent.
Look at Muhammad in Islam. The Muslims dont pray to him, dont consider him divine at all, profess the unity of G-d, abhor Shituf, but then they treat Muhammad as the ideal sock puppet to the extent that to question him is a worse heresy than questioning G-d. Islam becomes Idolatry without being formulated or framed as worship of another entity.
In not praying to Muhammad, but viewing his words as panultimate, the Muslim idolizes him without knowledge or intention.
The same happened to all the would be messiahs I listed above.
CR,
I am saying that His words are not Him. According to Genesis His words became everything. But His words are not Him. In Judaism, Moshiach is not perfect just like Moses was not perfect. If Moshiach can’t change the Torah. He can’t even belong to the Sanhedrin where the laws are debated and voted on. So the there is no comparison between the straight Torah and any other warped version of Torah. Do you get what I’m saying? If not please keep asking.
I get what you are saying. What I’m saying is that what you mentioned has never prevented anyone (including Moses) from being idolized.
You dont have to pray to something or consider it literally divine to idolize it.
The folden calf was an attempt at creating a conduit to replace who? Moshe Rabbeinu.
You are right that Moses wasnt perfect, neither were other Tzaddikim, that doesnt stop men from downplaying or white washing their faults and elevating them to the point of blurring lines.
Everything I said above (about descriptions of moshiach) are metaphors that are found in second temple texts, midrashim, etc.
CR,
Your concerns are valid and based in reality. What would you do, if you could, so that people would never have the urge to idolize a kosher tzadik prophet like Moses, Moshiach, or any other kosher prophet? I guess your concern is only with a prophet not with a tzadik who is not a prophet?
As I see it, I dont know the proper response, because even when these prophets and would be messiahs make it abundantly plain that they are not the focus, people make them the focus anyway.
Jesus himself said, “why callest though me good, none is good but G-d.”
Jesus himself told his disciples (after the alleged ressurection,) “do not hold on to me, for I have not ascended to my father.”
Jesus himself said, “the father is greater than I.”
In Therevada Buddhism, the Buddha tells his students”I am not divine do not worship me.” And yet, what heppens? Bhuddists make statues of him and meditate around Stupas that hold his remains.
Jews know that they should not venerate the rabbis, and yet all the big guys have tombs that peole regularly visit, (but you cant fault them because its a biblical practice to visit tombs of the righteous.)
One of the things that amazed me when I first started studying Judaism was how old the tradition of venerating the pious was.
I was raised protestant, and we always thought Catholics were playing with idolatry when they would venerate pious saints.
Imagine my surprise when I discovered that venerating pious people was the easiest and clearest link to draw between Judaism and Christianity. Both traditions do it without batting an eye lash.
Its an issue I dont think there is a fix for. Scripture and tradition are full of metaphors that make the pious into near divine sock puppets. We just follow along without realizing it.
The thing that stuns me the most is how the Christian Bible claims Jesus as the unique son of G-d, but then has the “anti Christ” tradition where they say
“if anyone claims for their guy the things we say about Jesus, they are decieved heretics.”
Thats why I dont think people’s claims of cognitive dissonance on the part of the students of Jesus hold any water.
The students of Jesus themselves freely admitted and clearly undrrstood that “if anyone else claimed what Jesus claimed, it would be idolatry.” They knew that if Jesus was just some guy, they would be guilty.
CR,
You brought verses to show that Jesus didn’t want to be the focus. But what do you make of all the verses in which he does the opposite?
Responsible Jewish leaders, teachers, prophets have to make it a very big priority not to make themselves the focus. And if they notice some of their students doing it anyway, they and the other students are responsible to help the misguided students get back on the right path. Jews have a very good track record of not making their leaders into idols. Hashem put in a lot of built-in checks and balances in the system that works pretty well but is not fool-proof (there will still be foolish people who will do what they want no matter what anybody says – and Hashem doesn’t take away their freewill to do so).
cr, you said :
“(but you cant fault them because its a biblical practice to visit tombs of the righteous.)”
any verses ?
MHC,
There are no verses in Tanakh that overtly state there was a mitzvah or even a custom to visit the graves of tzaddikim.
However, there is one source in the Talmud that I can think of that says the custom existed since at least the time of Moses. There is much halachic debate on this topic of praying at the graves of tzaddikim. Some authorities say it’s ok as long as one does not pray to the dead. But everyone admits the practice is fraught with halachic issues because it allows people to get very close the edge of the cliff of forbidden worship.
thanks mate
I think you said that with an Australian accent. You’re a-ok mate.
Carrying the bones of Joseph out of Egypt and laying him to rest in Israel also seems to be a clear allusion of extreme care for the patriarchs and that they wanted future generations to know where he was.
I meant that its a tradition that we see, and as Alan said, there is debate about it.
Gean wants us to believe that God’s word = God in some way so that we can worship God’s word (=Jesus).
The only “proof” he can contrive is that the verb BARA is not used anywhere in Tanakh in reference to God’s word. Gean’s logic is as follows: BARA means creating something from nothing and since BARA isn’t used to describe how the Torah was made (in Proverbs 8) in contrast to the rest of creation where BARA is used, it means that the Torah (God’s word) has always existed. Therefore, we can worship God’s word because it has always existed like God Himself and is therefore equivalent to God for the purpose of worship.
Gean, first of all, you are admitting that the Torah is God’s word. So why don’t you worship the Torah? Would it be ok to worship the Torah? Did Jews ever worship the Torah? Did Moses worship the Torah? Did King David and King Solomon worship the Torah?
But the most important thing to know, Gean, is that there really is no such thing as Hashem creating something from nothing. Because Hashem is infinite, there is nothing apart or separate from Him – He includes everything. The different Hebrew verbs that mean to make and to form – BARA, YATZAR, ASAH, HOLAL – are all METAPHORS meant for the HUMAN PERSPECTIVE only. From Hashem’s perspective nothing comes from nothing and everything is equally open and revealed – darkness to Him is as bright as light (Psalms 139:12 – Even the darkness is not too dark for you
but the night shines as the day; the darkness is even as the light.)
These different verbs are used to describe different levels of hiddenness of Hashem’s hand/presence in any given object/concept/phenomenon from our perspective. So if we say that something comes from nothing – it doesn’t literally mean from nothing because it comes from Hashem Who is the REAL SOMETHING. It’s AS IF it came from nothing because Hashem’s presence is extremely hidden in these things in the sense that THEY APPEAR TO RUN BY THEMSELVES. Besides, the essential meaning of the word BARA is “outside” – it means to bring what was inside to the outside. So by Hashem saying that He BARA (created) the heaven and the earth (Genesis 2:4), it means that what was “inside” Hashem’s mind, He brought it “outside”. But there really is nothing outside of Hashem – not even the Satan and idols – even though from the human perspective THEY APPEAR to be outside of Hashem.
So, Gean, everything comes from Something. Nothing comes from nothing. Rocks don’t literally come from nothing, they come from Something too. The heavens don’t literally come from nothing. They also come from Something. It’s just that it’s much harder for us to connect to Hashem through studying the heavens and earth than it is for us to connect to Him through studying and fulfilling His word.
Let’s use a human as an analogy. It is much harder for us to connect to someone’s personality and soul if the person lacks the ability to speak. Sure we can see his facial expressions and his actions but because he can’t speak, it is very hard for us to get to know him. But through his words, it’s much easier for us to relate to him. But still the person’s words ARE NOT HIM. They can express a very deep part of him, but they can’t express all of him. So much of the person is still hidden and is unable to be expressed in any words.
A person is much more than his spoken or written words. We might love a person’s words, but it would be insane to try to carry on a relationship with his words. We only want a relationship with the person himself. Likewise, we can love God’s words, but it would be a sign of insanity to try to have a relationship with His words. We only want a relationship with the ONE Who spoke those words. As it is true of a human being, Hashem is also infinitely more than His words and can never fully express Himself in any words. We therefore need something else, something even greater than words, to take our relationship with Hashem and with our fellow humans to the next level.
Everything comes from Hashem – even His words. But let’s have a mutual relationship with Hashem and not with His words. To have a worshipful relationship with anything besides Hashem Himself is a sign of insanity.
I wrote:
“As it is true of a human being, Hashem is also infinitely more than His words and can never fully express Himself in any words.”
Am I putting limits on Hashem? I wrote that Hashem is unable to fully express Himself in any words. The answer depends on who Hashem is speaking to. If He’s directing His words to Himself (perhaps this means He’s thinking to Himself), then He can certainly express all of Himself in these kinds of words. But if He is directing His words to people or any other being other than Himself, then it is impossible for a finite creature to know and understand all of Hashem. So a word from Hashem that is meant for a finite creature will necessarily be received in a finite way. If we knew all of Hashem we would be Him (a great rabbi once said something to this effect). So on the one hand, Hashem can do anything because He is unlimited. On the other hand, He is unable to reveal all of Himself to finite creatures not because of a limitation in the Transmitter but because of a limitation in the receivers. Perhaps this is a decent explanation for why God cannot become a man – a man that people can see and hear. Everything we can perceive is at most an expression of the Infinite but we can never perceive the Infinite Himself because we are finite.
Brother Alan, i appreciate your thoughtful and intellectual articles. If i gave you an impression that i worship Yeshua rather than God, or Word rather than Hashem Himself, sorry that is not what i meant.
1. I dont bow down to the Bible nor work for the ink but bow down Hashem whose glory and power and amazing works revealed in the Word and i work for Hashem who gave the job description through the Word.
2. If the word of God become everything, why Isaiah 55:10~11 do not say like this; “As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it but become water, earth, and bud ans seed… So is my word that goes out from my mouth and become everything without returning to me. ”
3. All you said about Hashem are words. Your concept of God is made of words. You pray to God through words. Is God wind? Picture? Man? Force? Visible star? Fire? Or mountain? No. I believe that as soon as you believe and meditate on all about Hashem, even in your quiet time of worshipping Hashem, you meet Him through the small voice or words from Him. The Nature SPEAKS the glory of Hashem, our experience SPEAKS to hear the voice of Hashem. When i hear His voice, i cannot help worshipping Hashem. Even in His silence, His silence speaks message.
Gean,
You told me that you worship both together. You worship the Father AND the Son TOGETHER.
Yes but 98% Father. Even in time of worshipping Son, I worship Father who gave His Son for me. I worship Father, then He receives it and He shows me He often shares the glory with His Son = Israel and Yeshua.
Gean,
You really didn’t understand anything I wrote. I’m sorry I can’t do better. The only thing I can suggest is if you read what I wrote again and if you have any question please ask me.
Gean,
“He often shares the glory with His Son = Israel and Yeshua.”
Then what is wrong with you worshiping any Jew or the entire Jewish people?
If you think you are Israel since the “brit chadashah” what is wrong with you worshiping yourself?
Isaiah 6:3 –
And one called unto another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory.”
The whole earth is full of His glory – He gave His glory to the entire earth. What is wrong with worshiping the earth?
Gean,
If an object is worthy of your worship because it shares God’s “glory” then there are plenty of things that have God’s glory and so you must also worship them.
If an object is worthy of your worship because it it “God’s word” then there are plenty of things that have God’s word and so you must worship them too; for example, a Torah scroll, a NT (according to you), Avraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, and all the prophets, your computer screen when you look at God’s words to name a few.
Alan, this debate is won by you and i’m lost. I will worship God only who is Abba Shelanu Adonai Echad. This will be the last question because we need to participate in another great articles of Rabbi.
You said, “what is wrong with you worshiping any Jew or the entire Jewish people?”
I do because God said So! Genesis 27:29 “Nations shall SERVE you and kingdoms shall bow down to you; you shall be a master over your brothers, and your mother’s sons shall bow down to you. Those who curse you shall be cursed, and those who bless you shall be blessed.” (www.chabad.org) In this verse, SERVE is what? ABAD! The same word which is used in Deuteronomy 11:16 “Beware, lest your heart be misled, and you turn away and WORSHIP strange gods and prostrate yourselves before them.”
Actually, i really worshiped (Abbadti: Worked, loved, and served) Jews when i was in Israel. When i was in LA, i wanted to serve (worship) the Jews not because they are greater than gentiles but because God said so and becasue Yeshua was from the Jews, and Yeshua said to the gentile Samaritan woman “salvation comes from the Jews” (John 4:22)
Gean, DON’T worship the Jews!
There is no separate word in Hebrew for “to worship”. There’s just one word la’avod (to work or to serve). Don’t work for and serve (help) the Jews like you do for Hashem! Worship only Hashem and help the Jews. Do you understand what I’m saying?
Which debate? We were having a few discussions at the same time:
1. Does God’s word have full divinity so that we should worship His word?
2. Is teshuvah enough for Hashem to forgive us or do we need blood on top of the teshuvah?
3. Does faith alone make one a tzadik or does one also need to keep the laws (one of the laws is to have faith)?
Gean, DON’T worship the Jews!
There is no separate word in Hebrew for “to worship”. There’s just one word la’avod (to work or to serve). Don’t work for and serve (help) the Jews like you do for Hashem! Worship only Hashem and help the Jews.
We were having a few discussions at the same time. Where are we with them?
1. Does God’s word have full divinity so that we should worship His word?
2. Is teshuvah enough for Hashem to forgive us or do we need blood on top of the teshuvah?
3. Does faith alone make one a tzadik or does one also need to keep the laws (one of the laws is to have faith)?
Brother Alan! Thank you for calling me to this discussion (not debate as i said wrongly) again.
Ok. We will keep exploring those three questions. Beforehand, please can you find the biblical history or narratives that differentiate Laavod le Hashem from Laavod le anashim?
Gean,
There are hundreds of examples in Tanakh. I’ve picked out a few –
Deut. 6 –
יג אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ תִּירָא, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹד; וּבִשְׁמוֹ, תִּשָּׁבֵעַ. 13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; and Him shalt thou SERVE, and by His name shalt thou swear.
Deut. 34 –
ה וַיָּמָת שָׁם מֹשֶׁה עֶבֶד-יְהוָה, בְּאֶרֶץ מוֹאָב–עַל-פִּי יְהוָה. 5 So Moses, a SERVANT (EVED) of the LORD, died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Psalm 100 –
ב עִבְדוּ אֶת-יְהוָה בְּשִׂמְחָה; בֹּאוּ לְפָנָיו, בִּרְנָנָה. 2 Serve the LORD with joy; come before His presence with singing.
Genesis 25 –
כג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה לָהּ, שְׁנֵי גֹיִים בְּבִטְנֵךְ, וּשְׁנֵי לְאֻמִּים, מִמֵּעַיִךְ יִפָּרֵדוּ; וּלְאֹם מִלְאֹם יֶאֱמָץ, וְרַב יַעֲבֹד צָעִיר. 23 And the LORD said unto her: Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall SERVE (ya’avod) the younger.
Genesis 29 –
יח וַיֶּאֱהַב יַעֲקֹב, אֶת-רָחֵל; וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶעֱבָדְךָ שֶׁבַע שָׁנִים, בְּרָחֵל בִּתְּךָ, הַקְּטַנָּה. 18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and he said: ‘I will SERVE thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.’
One more –
Deut. 11 –
יג וְהָיָה, אִם-שָׁמֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶל-מִצְוֹתַי, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, הַיּוֹם–לְאַהֲבָה אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, וּלְעָבְדוֹ, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם, וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. 13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and TO SERVE Him (L’AVDO) with all your heart and with all your soul.
“Yes but 98% Father. ”
Does it say in Tanakh or NT that worshiping the son 2% of the time is kosher? What if a person wants to do more than 2%? Is it permitted to do 5% or 10%? What if someone wants to do 50%?
“When i hear His voice, i cannot help worshipping Hashem. ”
do you worship his voice?
Can any human beings worship Hashem without hearing His voice?
Then the worship is mere religious ritual without sincere and intimate relationship with HIM. That is why Yeshua said “God is looking for those who worship in spirit and truth.”
“Can any human beings worship Hashem without hearing His voice?”
yeah, you can. do you worship sounds which come from god ?
I mean we can only worship God because He first revealed Himself through His word (the written word and spiritual voice). Who ever worshipped God before God revealed Himself?
When Yeshua said “i am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me” He meant the word of God. (The gospel of John is full of Logos theology) The God of Israel is a God who speaks to and communicates with mankind. Isn’t He?
God communicates His teachings through the Torah, but we do not worship the physical scroll. We do not pray to the Torah, nor pray to God in the name of the Torah. Do you hear how ridiculous this sounds? The words are only a message from God, the messenger. Yes, we obey the message. But we worship the messenger, not the message.
Sister Dina, so do I! I do not worship the physical scroll, because it is idolatry. I do not pray to the Torah nor pray to God in the name of the Torah. Both Jews and Christians pray according to the Torah, by the instruction and will of God revealed in the Torah. John 16:26 “In that day you will ask (John chose the word ‘ask’ not ‘pray’) in my name . I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father Himself loves you because you have loved me (Yeshua- Incarnated word of God) and have believed that I came from God.
I came from the Father and entered the 🌎 world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father” (John 16:26-28) As Isaiah 55:11, the word of the Lord comes down from heaven and fulfill the will of God on earth and return with mission done.
Please don’t misunderstand the Christian practice of praying in the name of Yeshua. Yeshua did not teach to end pray with “in Jesus name Amen” Christians do that from ignorance of John’ s intention. Just like children ask to their Father with various forms of speech, and Father just smiles and answers, Hashem does the same, I believe.
If Jesus is not your intermediary, your access to God (as in “I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me”) then what do you need Jesus for?
Here you are saying you do not pray to God through Jesus. We have shown that you do not need Jesus’s death to atone for your sins. So?
Whenever i find myself guilty or feel unappropriate before the Holy God because of what i have done and said, i repent and pray to God in the confidence that i have a high priest Yeshua in heaven anytime available; “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:16.
It does not mean i mechanically imagine the face of Jesus first and then go on repentant prayer, no. Maybe this will be worth comparing. Chrisitans who pray repentance could be compared with those ancient Israelites who pray repentance standing before the priest who perform the shedding of the blood from animal described in the Torah.
Again, i have shown that God need Jesus’s death not only for us (faith-thfulness OF Yeshua on behalf of us) but also for His Justice and Righteousness (for vindication of His forgiveness without executing judgment).
This is what i believe the Romans means;
“being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God;
for the shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus. ” Romans 3:24-26
you said
“Also the word of our God is eternal too in Isaiah 40:8?”
so when you hear your god, do you worship the sounds your god makes?
so imagine you heard god speak to moses . i am trying to understand if you would worship the voice of your god or god or the transcription of the communication.
I mean I worship God through HIS word (or Tanach- written revelation or inner spiritual voice- Rhema in Greek as described in Psalm 19:3~4)
Moses and Israelites were able to worship God because God revealed Himself first through His word!
“Moses and Israelites were able to worship God because God revealed Himself first through His word!”
god revealed himself. he spoke. where do you get “through his word” from? what does “through” even mean? did moses worship gods speech/communication/words?
Did God speak His fire? Did God speak His earthquake? God revealed Himself through Words. Is Torah image? Beast? Electricity? Torah is the word of God.
“I mean I worship God through HIS word”
. god speaks 10 instructions. do you worship through 10 instructions by using the instructions as intermediary or do you worship god by doing his instructions?
I worship God by doing His instructive words. And are you able to worship work לעבוד faithfully and live out His will specifically in your life without Torah?
Gean says we need Jesus as a mediator between God and man; that’s why he prays to Jesus. Gean must not be aware of this verse: “God is close to all who call to Him, to all who call to Him sincerely.”
He must not be aware of the many instances in Tanach wherein people prayed directly to God and God heard their prayers: “Now it came to pass in those many days that the king of Egypt died, and the children of Israel sighed from the labor, and they cried out, and their cry ascended to God from the labor. God heard their cry, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob” (Exodus 2:23-24).
“And Isaac prayed to the Lord opposite his wife because she was barren, and the Lord accepted his prayer, and Rebecca his wife conceived” (Genesis 25:21).
Lo and behold! God answers prayers without a mediator! How do you like that?
Gean, you’re toast. Time to admit it and move on.
toast – 토스트 (toseuteu)
Dina,
A few weeks ago, Gean vowed to only pray to the Father from now on.
No kidding! Kudos to you, Gean, and in that case I retract my words in this comment.
Alan, can you link that comment? I want to see this with my own eyes!
https://judaismresources.net/2017/07/09/riding-the-light-excerpt-from-seventh-response-to-d-l-2/#comment-38261
Dina,
Here you go.
Alan, Gean isn’t saying anything different to what he has been saying before. He said he will worship God only. He has been saying that since we know him. He did not say that he wouldn’t pray to Jesus or to God in the name of Jesus. He still believes that Jesus is the mediator between God and man and that he cannot approach God except through the medium of Jesus. As he just wrote in a comment on this page, when Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me,” Jesus meant no one comes to the Father but through the word of God–and he, Jesus, is the word of God.
So I retract my kudos to Gean and stand by my original statement that he’s toast, time to give up the fight. I cited a lot of sources showing that God can and does answer prayers without mediation. If Gean can show clear verses–as clear as the ones I cited–that the only way to access God is through His word in the person of Jesus (I can’t believe I’m writing this nonsensical drivel–how can a person be a word?), then we’ll have something to talk about!
Dina,
Ok, I probably misunderstood him.
Sister Dina, the verse sounds likeJames 4:8 ( Come near to God and He will come near to you). I know the sincere repentant prayer brings forgiveness. Amen. Manytimes Christians do that without ever bringing the bloody cross into their mind.
But think about it! The crucifixion is not prerequisite to repentance; rather, vindication of divine forgiveness in front of the Satan who accuses both sinners and God. Without crucifixion, God’ forgiveness to the repentant sinners lacks of His justice. It makes God unfaithful to keep His promise of judgement and curse in Torah.
Let me ask you sister. In the Numbers 25, why God commanded Moses to kill all the leaders of the people and to expose them in broad daylight instead of making them repent sincerely? Why the ATONEMENT for the Israelites was made when Eleazar KILLED both the Israelite and the Medianite woman?
The accident in Numbers 25, How was Moses able to tell the Israelites the way of extinguishing the wrath of God? Because he heard the Word- the instruction. Yeshua said, “Salvation comes from the Jews” Why? because they have been entrusted with the Word of God to the mankind as Pharisee Paul said in Romans. (and i admit Paul is not your ancestor. Forgive me sister)
Gean, a person can’t be the Torah. So no, Jesus is not the Torah.
Can you find support for this ridiculous notion anywhere in Tanach?
For you have been shown in order to know, that the Lord, He is the God, there is none beside him (Deuteronomy 35:4).
I am the Lord, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images (Isaiah 42:8).
I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isaiah 43:11).
So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, “I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). (Jesus had the gall to use the words “I am the first and the last” about himself.)
I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God: I will strengthen you although you have not known Me (Isaiah 45:5).
And I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt, and gods besides Me you should not know, and there is no savior but Me (Hosea 13:4).
But Dina, Christians believe those verses were Jesus talking about himself. Those verses are what necessitated the trinity doctrine.Unless Jesus was God he could not be the savior, since there is no savior but God. So they had to make Jesus into God somehow and make him the self-describing author of those texts.
Of course.
Amen!
That is why i believe, sister, his name was Yeshua, not Moshiah.
Yeshua is the incarnated word of God which is the means of God’s SALVATION.
And God ALONE is the SAVIOR- MOSHIAH.
Again, in JOhn’s Gospel, Yeshua said, “Salvation comes from the Jews.” Why?
Because they have been entrusted with the Word of God to the mankind as Pharisee Paul said in Romans 3:1-2.
Where is The messiah G-d as per the Tanakh? Nowhere, actually, it says clearly that the messiah IS NOT G-d.
Ezekiel 34:
And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.
HaShem is not David, HaShem is G-d, while David (The messiah) is prince among them.
Also, as per Ezekiel 45, the messiah is not sinless, as he brings sin sacrifice for Himself:
And on that day the prince (Messiah) shall prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.
You said “Messiah is not God”
Amen!
” For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the MAN CHRIST Jesus” 1Timothy 2:5
Then you have a big issue of devotion to someone else than G-d. G-d will not share HIS Glory with any other. Jews preferred to die rather than doing that offence to G-d. Why would it be OK to give your devotion to a human being, and why now it’s important to acknowledge Jesus, while David, Moses, Abraham and all the prophets did not need that devotion to any man?
“Yeshua is the incarnated word of God which is the means of God’s SALVATION.
And God ALONE is the SAVIOR- MOSHIAH.”
god said “let there be light” is the sun incarnated word of god?
did god say “let there be yeshua ” and his words became yeshua?
god said he does not need any means, he hears and sees and has power to reply without the need of jesus. is gods power more closer to him (its his essence) or an incarnation which is limited and can be destroyed?
Robster, for you to understand John’s concept, you have to understand Greek Philosophy. Philo, an Hellenized Jew, and as such mixed Judaism and Greek Philosophy. In Genesis 1, we read “V’yamar Elohim” (וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים ) And said Elohim…
Why did G-d need to say anything? Why did G-d have to say anything? He could, in theory, have created everything without a word. So, that brought a lot of questions, in a philosophical point of view. The logos, as per Philo, was an “intermediary beings necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world. The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo “the first-born of God”
So, when you say “did god say “let there be yeshua ”, it makes no sense. Chrisitians understand Genesis as “God said let there be light = the word of G-d (AKA D’var/Logos/Jesus) created the light”.
Here are a few ways of seeing John 1:
In the beginning was the logos/D’var, and the logos/D’var was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning was (“V’yamar Elohim” (וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים )/logos/D’var/Jesus), and the Words that G-d spoke was with God, and the words that came out of the mouth of G-d (intermediary beings necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world) was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through that intermediary being all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In that intermediary being was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
That logo (intermediary being) became a human and lived among us. And guess who it was? Yeshua
This whole thing makes very little sense, but only shows that John understood that Hebrew Bible through the lenses of Greek Philosophy…
quote :
So, when you say “did god say “let there be yeshua ”, it makes no sense. Chrisitians understand Genesis as “God said let there be light = the word of G-d (AKA D’var/Logos/Jesus) created the light”.
i know what christians say, but look at what gean says :
gean said :
Yeshua is the incarnated word of God which is the means of God’s SALVATION.
quote :
Please don’t misunderstand the Christian practice of praying in the name of Yeshua. Yeshua did not teach to end pray with “in Jesus name Amen” Christians do that from ignorance of John’ s intention.
he is using a separate being and worshiping his god through that being or is he saying it is same being existing as different things? i don’t know what to make of what he is saying.
and if it is the same being existing as different things, then why does he not worship it regardless of what it exists as ?
I am puzzled too… 🙂
Brother, can you find in creation story any verse that indicates God created WORD?
Gean,
We did this before. Proverbs 8 – “holalti” means “I was created/I was made”.
כד בְּאֵין-תְּהֹמוֹת חוֹלָלְתִּי; בְּאֵין מַעְיָנוֹת, נִכְבַּדֵּי-מָיִם. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
כה בְּטֶרֶם הָרִים הָטְבָּעוּ; לִפְנֵי גְבָעוֹת חוֹלָלְתִּי. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth;
Brother Alan, Your translation says “brought forth” which means wisdom was already in God, and time has come to be brought forth to minister with God. חוללתי has various meaning besides “made.” You know that.
As we discussed before, if God created wisdom or made wisdom, then God was unwise before he created it?
Gean,
I left the translation as is. The person who who the English translation used poetic license. It does not literally mean “brought forth”. It means created or made.
Also,
כב יְהוָה–קָנָנִי, רֵאשִׁית דַּרְכּוֹ: קֶדֶם מִפְעָלָיו מֵאָז. 22 The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.
Gean, if you like the translation so much do you also like his translation of “kanani”?
Yes! קנני means “posessed or purchased” right? Possess or purchase can mean relocation of something which already exist. Why do you force those unique verbs to be translated as only “make”?
Why עשה – make or ברא – create were not used?
Gean,
We’re talking about the Creator of the Universe here. Please tell – how would you like to translate “holalti” and “kanani” when we’re talking about the Creator doing these things?
As i said! Please accept as it is used! Verse 30 says the wisdom was “אמןcraft workman” not “manufacture!” Tanakh says it and we must accept it.
Why John declared in Revelation that Yeshua was alpha and Omega? He was the alpha (first 3 letters of The torah- ברא : create- the action of God) and Omega (last 3 letters of the N.T. – Amen אםן)
I hope you will see אמן both in Proverbs 8:30 and Revelation 22:21
Gean,
All the words the Tanakh uses to describe the different acts of God’s creating/making/forming things is all metaphorical from our perspective. These verbs do not apply to God’s perspective. Everything comes from Him. Nothing comes from nothing literally. Perhaps we can say that these different verbs indicate different degrees of God’s hiding himself in creation. Hashem created vessels called words. Proverbs is talking about his wisdom that people can grasp. He reveals His wisdom to people in finite form through words. We can’t grasp Hashem’s wisdom as it really is. We can only grasp it through our senses or through words (speech and thought). These vessels of speech and thought that people can relate to were made especially for people. God doesn’t need them at all. And we want a relationship with Him not with His words. His human-geared words are one medium through which we can connect to Him. We don’t want a relationship with the medium but only with Him.
Thanks Alan. This really helps. “Everything comes from Him”
Yes, Paul says that in Romans 11:36 “For from Him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.”
However, Mankind will ask us ” If everything comes from HIM (HIS BEING)
then, God shares His being with everything He makes?” This gives room for idolatery.
THAT is why we need to say “everything comes from HIS wisdom or word or power” to avoid pantheism or panentheism.
So we need to heed how the Jewish Talmid John says, “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:3
And He means “Him” as the LOGOS of God.
Gean,
So I strengthened your belief that Jesus is ontologically God and the incarnated word of God, so you can worship Jesus and God together? I helped you strengthen your belief in this?
Notice how carefully the Jewish followers of Yeshua chose the word. When Paul said “from him and through(by) him and to him are the all things…” He meant God.
But when John meant Yeshua as the Logos of God, he adds “make.”
“Through him all things were MADE; without him nothing was MADE that has been MADE.” John 1:3
Gean,
Did I strengthen your belief that Jesus is ontologically God and the incarnated word of God and that you should worship him together with God?
can you tell me in creation story where god speaks to his words as if his words are another person?
Genesis 1:26& 3:22 . i think.
this is god talking to himself, not to his word
quote :
26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind[a] in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[b] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
quote :
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
again a god talking to himself .
Brother, if God was talking to himself, why not “i will make mankind in my image, according to my likeness…”
And why not “the man has now become like me…”?
you think god was talking to someone else? so you have two speakers ?
Gean, you think God was talking to His words? Really? Or you think he was talking to Jesus? Really?
How can a person be a word? Show me one place in the Torah that teaches outright that God’s word is a person and that person is the mediator between man and God. You have not yet addressed the Scriptures I cited that show that one can pray directly to God, that no mediator is needed.
Can you imagine that perhaps God was using the royal “we”? Or perhaps you can imagine that He was addressing His heavenly court. After all, God appoints the cherubs to guard Eden after kicking out Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:24). Where did those cherubs come from?
Can you at least agree that these explanations for the plural use are far more reasonable than making something up out of thin air?
I would rather say “God was talking with His wisdom.” Proverbs 8:30-31 alludes to that? Personally I don’t want to say “God was talking with Yeshua” because he was not named yet as “Yeshua” in this preincarnated time.
I believe that you know i am not talking about a person as walking flesh and bone and a word as Papyrus.
Why David praised the Word of God so much as if the Word the Torah is a personal being in Psalm 119?
Why the Proverbs portray the wisdom- the Torah – the word of God not just as someTHING but as a personal being?
I agree we can directly pray to God. However, Pagans pray to gods by performing rituals or harming their bodies without intimate lingual communication. Not so to Judaism and Christianity!!
The words we offer in our prayer are not the medium? The prayerful words in Psalm are human literature or mediator for us so that we could recite it and pray with those words?
Get rid of all the holy and logical words in your mind, never say anything any thoughts in your mind, how could you pray to God?
I can imagine “roayal we” i love this expression! Yes, i agree God was in the heavenly court with couseling cherubs. Your explanation is far more reasonable than mine.
And can you imagine that the communication methods in the heavenly court was sign language? The Logos- the Word should not be there first?
Gean, why does the Torah not teach outright that God’s words somehow incarnated into a human being and that this person is the mediator between man and God?
Someone on this blog, I think it was Con, provided a great quote that said that Christians understand literally what they should understand metaphorically and understand metaphorically what they should understand literally. This post is a perfect example of that.
We are telling you that you are misunderstanding the Bible and misusing its words to support a theology that you arrived at first. You read the Torah backwards, coming to the Torah with your theology firmly fixed in place and then finding justification for it.
The Jewish people were appointed God’s witness and only to them was the correct understanding of the Torah given (see Psalm 147:19-20; Isaiah 59:21; Psalm 78:5; Isaiah 43:10-12; Isaiah 44:8).
I understand this is tough for a Christian to swallow; it takes a great deal of humility to accept that the correct understanding of the Torah belongs exclusively to the people of Israel.
Gean,
David in psalm 119 is not praising the Torah and commandments as if they were God or a person. Torah and commandments is an amazing gift and David can’t stop telling Hashem (and us) how wonderful it is. He doesn’t have an interpersonal relationship with Torah and commandments or even worship it. He talks about how amazing it is. That’s it.
In Proverbs, Solomon is using poetic language, as all the prophets do. In this case, he is poetically having wisdom talk to us so we will be inspired to open up our ears to it. Solomon also never had an interpersonal relationship with the Torah and commandments, or with Jesus!
If you want to find things in Tanakh to justify what you want to believe, you will be able to find it – but only if you ignore the main principles.
I understand brother. But Isn’t David extraordinarily describing as if it is a person?
“Also your testimonies are my affairs, MEN of my councel.” V.24
Gean,
“Also your testimonies are my affairs, MEN of my councel.”
David is saying that the edot (testimonial commandments – commandments that testify to events that have happened between God and Israel – like Passover and Sukkot) are his loyal counselors, unlike people who may sometimes not be loyal and not give good advice. “Anshei etzotai” in this verse means “men who give me advice”.
Gean,
How would you like it –
1. David is poetically describing the testimonial commandments.
or
2. David is teaching us that each testimonial commandment is literally a man – a sentient human who we can have an interpersonal relationship with.
or
3. David is teaching us that the testimonial commandments are fit to be worshiped precisely because they are men.
Which way would you like it?
I like 1. And David regards the testimonial commandments more than just words but as his counsellors- personal being.
In Isaiah 40:13~14
Does this emphasize that God never need counselor nor need to take counsel with anybody
Or that His own wisom is his counselor and with His own hockmah he take counsel?
Gean,
I just want to make sure I got you – you believe the edot-type commandments are MEN?
Tanakh says they are. And
I interpret MEN as personal being.
Gean,
How many MEN are part of the Torah?
Are these MEN ontologically God?
Gean, why do you interpret men as one personal being?
Who gave you permission to interpret our Scripture? Did you investigate my claim that the correct understanding of the Hebrew Bible rests exclusively with the Jewish people?
Dina,
Who gave you the right to say that Gean can’t understand MEN as MAN?
Gean is an intelligent person, he can read the verse “men of my counsels/i.e. my counselors” as “my counselor” if he wants to. And he can understand it to mean that the commandments are ontologically God and are actually Jesus! You think only YOU are allowed to interpret the Torah, Dina?!
Lol
Sister Dina, i believe that when you meditate the Torah, you think you meditate God’s word not Moses’ words. When you obey the Torah, you think you obey God, not the scroll. So do i.
Psalm 147:19-20; .He tells His words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20.He did not do so to any nation, and they did not know the judgments. Hallelujah!
–>Where is the exclusivity of the Jewish people in understanding correctly the Hebrew Bible? I see the exclusivity of the Jewish People in receiving the words, and nations did not know the judgments because they did not receive. Now? i have it on my hand.
Isaiah 59:21; .”As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My spirit, which is upon you and My words that I have placed in your mouth, shall not move from your mouth or from the mouth of your seed and from the mouth of your seed’s seed,” said the Lord, “from now and to eternity.”
“Shall NOT MOVE” it says. not “Shall not be interpreted wrongly” Again, the exclusivity of the Jewish people in preserving the Scriptures, not in understanding correctly.
Psalm 78:5; .And He established testimony in Jacob, and He set down a Torah in Israel, which He commanded our forefathers to make them known to their sons.
God exclusively established and set down the Torah in Israel. And “make them known to their sons” necessarily mean “their sons always understood correctly throughout history?”
Isaiah 43:10-12; .”You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “and My servant whom I chose,” in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.
11.I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior. 12.I told and I saved, and I made heard and there was no stranger among you, and you are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “and I am God.
The exclusivity of the Jewish people in witnessing. For what? “in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He” not “in order that you teach gentiles and make them know the correct understanding of me.”
Isaiah 44:8 .Fear not and be not dismayed; did I not let you hear it from then, and I told [it] and you are My witnesses; is there a God besides Me? And there is no rock I did not know.
Again, the exclusivity of the Jewish people in hearing the voice of God (at Sinai?) I don’t see the exclusivity of correct understanding of the Hebrew Bible.
And i confess that i have learned the biblical truth from your comments and Rabbi and Jewish friends here and i love and rejoice in them. However, if God is able to open the mouth of donkey to correct Balaam the prophet, can’t He do the same through me? If God used Medianite priest to counsel Moses, He can use a gentile pastor Jeon to counsel you?
Gean,
If you think the mitzvah of eating matzah is a man and that living in a sukkah is another man, then it is you who needs to have the humility to listen more to us when it comes to Torah than we need to listen to you.
My precious brother Alan. Im chashavti she ha mitzvah leechol matzah adam, i would have opened the Torah and say toward the book “Mitzvah at mezooyenet!!” But I didnt. While eating matzah in Jerusalem because of the commandments (and they got rid of all the sweet cookies in the store!) , i felt like God was commanding me to eat it!
Gean,
So you are admitting that the commandments are not men!
Also, you say I’m your precious brother. Please tell me what part of me is precious and good?
“Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give men in exchange for you, and people in exchange for your life.” Because i dont take this word as mere religious language, but i take it as living voice of God, you are precious.
You are good because you are in the covenant of good God and you keep debating with me to teach me the truth.
Gean,
You think I am good because I’m in the covenant? Even though I reject Jesus I am good?
What about non-Jews who are not in the covenant? Are they not good because they’re not in the covenant?
Betach!! Even though you reject Jesus, You are good! Listen to the Pharisee Paul, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. what if some (Alan) did not believe (reject Jesus)? shall their (Alan’s) unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid!”
Romans 3:1-3
Gean,
If you think I’m good the way I am, then when I get to the next world why should I be sent to hell forever if I was good while I was alive in my body?
Who told you that you will be sent there?!!
Jesus in the NT tells me that I will perish and be sent to the Lake of Fire if I stay the way I am.
What about non-Jews who aren’t in the covenant? Are some of them good?
Who is good? If God says “He or she is good,” then He or she is good. Then to whom God calls “good or righteous or holy”? To those who obey the word of God whether they are gentiles or Jews.
Acts 10: 1 “Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.”
Peter the Jewish follower of Yeshua first thought the animals and creeping creatures and birds (symbolize those gentiles) were unholy in his dream. When God said “kill and eat it,” Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” However, What did God say? “Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”
Whether Jews or not, those who keep the law of God are righteous-
“For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:25-29
Q. Where in the NT did Jesus tell you that?
Gean,
You believe the entire NT is Jesus’ word, right? Here are some places where he tells us that if we don’t believe in Jesus we will either die, not enter the kingdom of heaven or be condemned forever –
Matthew 13:38-43 –
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 23:33 –
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 25:45-46 –
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
John 3 –
16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so thateveryone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did notsend his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be savedthrough him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does notbelieve has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
John 3 –
36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.
John 5 –
22 Furthermore, the Father does not judge anyone, but has assigned alljudgment to the Son, 23 so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 8:24-
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:42 –
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 12:48
“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
I John 5:9-13 –
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Revelation 21:8 –
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Alan: Jesus in the NT tells me that I will perish and be sent to the Lake of Fire if I stay the way I am.
Gean: Q. Where in the NT did Jesus tell you that?
Alan: https://judaismresources.net/2017/07/09/riding-the-light-excerpt-from-seventh-response-to-d-l-2/#comment-39062
Gean: [Please reply, thank you]
Brother Alan, i am sorry for late. Let us do onee by one. First you asked if i believe the Entire NT is the word of Jesus, i would say No. For example, Paul says, “To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.”
I believe the Spirit of Yeshua inspired the NT writers, but not exactly all the words are Jesus’ words.
**Mt13:38-43**
It is easy to misunderstand who the good seeds are and who the tares are. The parable is clear and simple enough. Good seeds are the sons of the KINGDOM! The Jewish people who not only have inherited but also cherished the Kingdom of God- Israel. Seed in the New Testament refers both the physical descendants of the covenant of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob
And also the spiritual descendants who receive the covenant – the word of God in Yeshua. So both Jews and Christians are the sons of the Kingdom.
Who are the tares which will ultimately be thrown to the furnace? Verse 41! Those who offend and do lawlessness (iniquity)! Those who disobey the law of God are the tares! It does not say those who dont believe in Yeshua.
Notice how Yeshua ends the patable; He didnt say “believer” rather “the righteous”!!
“Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.; Mt 13:43
Compare this with Daniel 12:3
1 John 3:10 “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.” This verse affirm the parable of Mt. 13:41
Gean, I am glad that you finally tackled the Scriptures that I cited, because your response is very telling.
You take exception to the fact that my citations do not explicitly state that the correct understanding of the Torah is the exclusive domain of the Jewish people. I will address that later, along with your contention that God “can use a gentile pastor Jeon to counsel [me],” as the two are related.
But first your double standard must be addressed. You have foisted fanciful interpretations onto the text and presented them as if they are reasonable and obvious. For example, understood the verse “Let us make man in our image” to mean that God is addressing Jesus. However, the text does not say this, not at all. You even, to your credit, conceded that the interpretations I offered made sense. Nevertheless, you did not retract your position.
One more example: You interpreted David’s obviously metaphorical use of the phrase “men of my counsel” to mean that David is relating to a personal being, i.e., Jesus. Guess what, Gean? I do not see this anywhere in the text.
But when I present an explanation of Scripture that is clearly implied (though not as specific as you would like) and that is consistent with the totality of Scripture, you reject it on the grounds that Scripture did not use exactly the words that I used? This kind of double standard (heads I win, tails you lose) reeks of intellectual dishonesty.
The fact is, my interpretation is consistent with Scripture. God set down His testimony within Israel; He did not do so for any other nation–they do not know His judgments! Now you have it in your hand, you say? You do not have the Hebrew Bible in your hand. You have the Christian Old Testament. You read our Bible so differently than it was meant to be read that in your hand it morphs into an entirely different book. It is a perversion of the Torah that God bequeathed to the Jewish people.
You were not given the Torah, and you were not meant to have it.
The target audience of the Torah is clearly the Jewish people. Your telling us how to understand it is like a woman telling her friend what her friend’s love letters from her husband mean. That is how we rightly view it.
God appointed the Jewish people as His witness nation to testify to the world the truth about God. The Jewish people have been testifying for the past two thousand years that Jesus is a false prophet, a false messiah, and not God. If we know the truth about God, then we know who His true prophets and messiahs are. That is what it means to testify the truth about God. We did this, Gean, at great personal cost, with a body count in the millions. I identify as a Jew today only because my forbears rejected the message of Christianity. Had the Jewish people succumbed to the enormous pressure exerted by their Christian oppressors, they would have disappeared into the general population through assimilation.
The Bible predicts that at the end of days, the gentiles will approach the Jews to learn about God: “In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you” (Zechariah 8:23).
The prophets are full of reassurances about the vindication of the Jewish people to the eyes of all the nations: Isaiah 25:1-8; Isaiah 60:1-3; Isaiah 53.
There is not one word in the whole entire Hebrew Bible about Jews turning to gentiles to receive religious truth. We are enjoined to turn to our leaders when we need guidance, not to you (Deuteronomy 17:8-10). We are enjoined to ask our fathers and our elders, not you (Deuteronomy 32:7).
Gean, you have nothing to teach the Jewish people about their own Scripture and nothing to add to their understanding of God. The only thing you can do is attempt to lead us astray. You will not succeed, but do you want this attempt on your conscience? Or would you rather open your mind and heart to listening to the testimony of the people of Israel, a testimony unchanged since the revelation at Mount Sinai three and a half thousand years ago, with compassion and love? You do not have to wait until the end of days for the mask to fall off your eyes. You can take the mask off yourself.
Dina,
Yashar ko’ach!
“In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you” (Zechariah 8:23).!”
Jewish men don’t wear skirts! Unless they are Scottish Jews.
Sister Dina, i apologize if my provocative interpretations offended you or to the common sense of the Jewish people.
I think i confessed a few times that I learned no less amount of Truth of Tanakh and Judaism from the converstions with you and interestingly also truth of the original intention of the Jewish followers of yeshua who has written NT.
Maybe you are right. I may have a glass of Christian theology whenever i see the Hebrew Bible. In fact, all i know is only from how the Jewish followers of Yeshua interpreted the Tanakh in the NT and a handful knowledge of Judaism. I really desire to hear and learn with honesty from other Jewish teachers and rabs (Rabbis or rabs?) and want to know Judaism to know the truth.
“Let us make man in our image.” I had a question; what kind of image about God here do we have? Simple question but hard to think, right? What kind of information do we have here to know the image of God? i came to conclusion (i might have misinterpreted) that God is God who conversates, talks, and speak words. I don’t know, and want to know; Do you know? How do you interpret this verse?
Far be it from me that i pervert the Torah! Please tell me to stop whenever i pervert the Torah, but allow me to discuss here if i am talking within the boundary of creative thingking that the Tanakh creates and even permits.
“You were not given the Torah, and you were not meant to have it.” I am sad.
and all i can say is this.
“Yes, lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Would you please count me as some gentiles who followed the great multitude of the Hebrews out of Egypt?
Can’t i not rejoice with you?
“Rejoice, O nations, with His people;
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And will render vengeance on His adversaries,
And will atone for His land and His people.”
I came here not to convert because i know it is impossible and it is not necessary. I am taking the mask off myself at some personal and denominational cost. it is worth though because i feel more safe here than in other christian forum. And it is my hope that isaiah 52:7-8 will be fulfilled in the near future. “How beautiful are the feet of the herald on the mountains, announcing peace, heralding good tidings, announcing salvation, saying to Zion, “Your God has manifested His kingdom.” ז.מַה־נָּאו֨וּ עַל־הֶֽהָרִ֜ים רַגְלֵ֣י מְבַשֵּׂ֗ר מַשְׁמִ֧יעַ שָׁל֛וֹם מְבַשֵּׂ֥ר ט֖וֹב מַשְׁמִ֣יעַ יְשׁוּעָ֑ה אֹמֵ֥ר לְצִיּ֖וֹן מָלַ֥ךְ אֱלֹהָֽיִךְ:
The voice of your watchmen- they raised a voice, together they shall sing, for eye to eye they shall see when the Lord returns to Zion. ח.ק֥וֹל צֹפַ֛יִךְ נָ֥שְׂאוּ ק֖וֹל יַחְדָּ֣ו יְרַנֵּ֑נוּ כִּ֣י עַ֚יִן בְּעַ֙יִן֙ יִרְא֔וּ בְּשׁ֥וּב יְהֹוָ֖ה צִיּֽוֹן:
“but allow me to discuss here if i am talking within the boundary of creative thingking that the Tanakh creates and even permits.”
Creative thinking is permitted as long as you stay within the Torah ballpark. But you like to hit it out of the ballpark a lot. The people on this blog want to play inside the ballpark. You sincerely think you are inside but you are really not, but you refuse to believe us when we tell you you’re not.
“You were not given the Torah, and you were not meant to have it.” I am sad.
and all i can say is this.
“Yes, lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Torah and Jews don’t call non-Jews dogs or puppies. Only the NT says this in order to make you think that Jews think of non-Jews as puppies or house pets. One of the great lies of the NT is that it makes Jews look arrogant and racist.
I think Dina just means that the Torah was given to the Jews and to those who joined them. If you join us either as a Jewish convert or as a Ben Noah then you have a share in the Torah. Even the way you are now, Hashem loves and cares for you and you can have a relationship with Him. But in order to have a share in the Torah you need to join the Jewish people either as a convert or as a Ben Noah. A person can’t have a share in the US Constitution if he doesn’t join the American people.
Gean,
I’d like to acknowledge you for your respectful tone throughout. I really appreciate it, and I can learn from you!
Please know that the point of this conversation isn’t to make anyone feel bad. I don’t take offense personally, but out of loyalty one can’t help getting upset when one sees the words of Hashem twisted to support a theology that contradicts Hashem’s teachings.
You raised some important questions in your post.
First, what is the role of gentiles in the relationship of God and His creations? I must tell you that I do find the comparison you used of gentiles to dogs highly offensive and shocking. I know your NT tells you this, but it’s a terrible thing to say. You are a human being created in the image of God, and as such you are a beautiful and dignified person who is beloved in God’s eyes.
God calls Israel His firstborn son; a firstborn implies that other children have been born as well (otherwise “only son” would be the term to use). Thus, you are as much a child of God as I am; God is the Father of us all. I do not think our Father would be pleased to hear His children refer to themselves as dogs.
Second, I am glad you feel comfortable expressing your thoughts on this forum. Please don’t let the sharpness of my words get in the way of your free expression of whatever you want!
Third, your question on the verse “Let us make man in our image” is a good one. Why does God use the plural? If we are forbidden to associate God with a physical form (as in Deuteronomy 4) what does God mean when He says man is created in His image?
Jews have always understood the answer to the first question to be either God using the majestic plural pronoun (the royal “we”) or to be addressing His heavenly court–or both! The answer to the second question is simple. Think about it: if man is created in God’s physical image (which can’t be because the Torah goes out of its way to forbid physical association with God), then what about some primates that look remarkably humanoid? Are they also created in God’s image?
Man is like God in every way that he is different from animals, namely speech, the ability to reason, and free will. Animals are not created in God’s image. They cannot talk, they cannot reason, they do not possess free will.
In other words, man is created in God’s intellectual image, because God has no physical form.
Because Jews have preserved the words of the Torah throughout the ages, and taught our tradition to our children in an unbroken chain, a Jew reads these words and would never come to the conclusions you arrived at.
You graciously conceded that you “may have a glass of Christian theology whenever [you] see the Hebrew Bible.” It is true. Your theology about Jesus was fixed firmly in place before you ever read a word of the Torah. This makes it difficult for you to read the Torah from a Jewish perspective and also to understand why your interpretations are so foreign and even absurd to Jews who do not share your theology.
I too share your yearning to see the fulfillment of Isaiah 52. May it happen speedily in our days!
Amen Amen!!
Thank you so much for this wonderful article.
Gean, if David worshiped the commandments as a personal being, why does he say “men” and not “man”?
Dina,
The real TRUE answer is that the godhead has 613 persons.
Gean, you desire to share with us your correct and superior understanding of religious truth, but you have only succeeded in making yourself appear ridiculous, forgive me.
gean, are you trinitarian christian?
this mean you worship the hokmah of god, right?
“I hope you will see אמן both in Proverbs 8:30 and Revelation 22:21”
then I was beside him, like a master worker;[a]
and I was daily his[b] delight,
rejoicing before him always,
so you worship the hockmah of god? do you know that hockmah is feminine?
You mean we can worship hockmah if it is masculine?
did i say that? i didn’t .
Brother, in Genesis 1:26 & 3:22, i think God reveals secret (סוד) to his sevant Yeshua (God’s word and wisdom)
ㅡAmos 3:7
so now you have gods word which is separate from him and his wisdom which is separate from him and god is chatting to these two?
his wisdom didn’t know secret ?
Did I say that you said we can worship hockmah if it is masculine? No. Just asked whether you meant it.
quote :
“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:3
And He means “Him” as the LOGOS of God.”
gean , you forgot the hockmah. god needed the hockmah to inform him WHEN to speak. so hockmah is more powerful than word. do you agree?
since wisdom /intelligence/knowledge precede words , then this is feminine hypostatis which co exist with your god and help your god speak words. do you worship the wisdom of your god considering the wisdom is needed to produce the words which your god utters? trinitarians have not denied polytheism, they have internalised it into the ESSENCE of God.
gean, can I ask , how many mediators do you worship ? you need to make a distinction between spoken words and intelligence. intelligence exist in gods mind . Not all of gods intelligence is revealed to anyone. you said God was speaking to his hokmah. Did god use logos to speak to hokmah? Do you see how you Christians have internalised polytheism into gods essence?
“Good seeds are the sons of the KINGDOM! The Jewish people who not only have inherited but also cherished the Kingdom of God- Israel. ”
“The justification of God for me came through the crucifixion, and the crucifixion was initiated by the hostility of Jews against Yeshua. God has used them to carry out His secret plan of salvation. ”
Those are two quotes from you. They contradict each other. Israel, rejects Yeshua. Israel does not believe in the justification of G-d (Jesus). Or we are “saved” by faith in Jesus crucifixion, or by trusting in G-d and following His Torah. Those teachings go against each other.
Gean, where do those Jews who follow Torah and don’t believe in Jesus go when they die? Are Jews going to heaven? If yes, then Jesus was not needed. If no, then keeping the Law was not needed. Imagine all those Jews who had to pay with their life because they rejected Jesus, where are they now? In heaven or Hell? Why would any law abiding Jew be in Hell for rejecting Jesus; and why on earth should we accept Jesus if he is not needed in the first place?
Gean, in Hebrew the words “mashiach” and “moshiah” are completely unrelated although they sound similar. For example in English the words “sun” and “son” are unrelated. So are the words “goon” and “gone” or “slow” and “snow.”
The word “mashiach” comes from the root “mashach” and means “anointed one.”
The word “moshiah” comes from root “yasha” or “hasha” (not sure which), which means save or redeem.
Furthermore, the word of God (i.e. His commands and teachings) is expressed in the Torah. The Torah can’t be incarnated in a person. Jesus is not the Torah.
Finally, I’m glad you admitted that Paul is not my ancestor. Will you now admit that the word salvation is never used in the Hebrew Bible to denote salvation from sin? Will you admit that the concept of God saving any individual from sin is contrary to the teachings of the Bible (as expressed in Deuteronomy 30 and Ezekiel 18 and 33)?
Dina, i did not mean “mashiach” and “moshiah” is related; i meant opposite like you do. Yeshua and God cannot be the same. Yeshua is God’S ACTion of saving, thus noun- SALVATION. Whereas, God is MOSHIAH (SAVIOR) who is alone savior.
The word of God cannot be incarnated in a person? Humans were created by the image of God. What kind of image of God was described Genesis 1:26? “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
We only know according to the text about the the divine image
1. God speaks words.
2. God conversates with words.
The is the IMAGE engraved on us.
we human beings are the only living creatures who speak language and conversate with words on the earth.
We have God’s breath. Even human breath can give life to dying people like ventilation in CPR, how much more divine breath can become a man? I dont explain very well, it is a mystery.
I will come back after further studying of God’s salvation from sin. Thank you.
Gean, you (through no fault of your own) are like a man who has a glass (lets call the glass Yeshua.) Inside of the glass, you have water. (lets call the water hashem’s clear unambiguous instructions for how we are to worship G-d.)
You, are making the case that Jesus (the glass) is only carrying the water. If that is true, then there is no need for the glass. You may see the glass (Yeshua) as important, but only the water is relevant, in which case, Yeshua becomes irrelevant.
Imagine if Moses had said to Israel, “I want you to make me the center of your devotion.” The people of Israel would have been completely justified in telling Moses to”get lost.”
No matter how you read the New testament, Jesus is described as the central action of th father. The New Testament explicitly contrasts Yeshua with the old law written on stone that is passing away. Jews cannot and will not accept this, no matter how you understand “what it really means.”
Brother CR! Thanks for very plausible comment! I understand your parable; however, don’t we know that we as the people of God have broken the covenant many times so that the water broke out of the broken glass?
Not only we need God’ s renewed covenant but also God needs the unbrokable glass to show us His water- everlasting justice and love?
Non-sense, we see clearly in Psalm 119 that the Torah is forever. We see in Deut 30 that G-d will circumcise our heart if we keep Torah. We see in Ezekiel that the Temple will be rebuilt and that make sacrifices for his own sins….
Gean, show me where the Torah teaches the notion that a man needs God’s salvation from his own sin. Come on! If the Torah taught such a thing, you would have shown me by now. You can save yourself from your own sin by doing teshuva.
Please read Deuteronomy 30 and Ezekiel 18 and 33 closely.
Christians argue that Jews already are saved because of the covenant, so Christians need Jesus to save them from sin because they are not part of that covenant.
Stuff and nonsense! Our covenant with God contains no promises of salvation from sin. This concept is completely foreign to the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures.
God has promised us that he will one day save us from our enemies. That’s a little bit of a different story, do you hear what I’m saying?
Hi, Dina. I am sorry for not being prompt to this question. The concept has been in my mind, but hard to express because the concept of Salvation and Sin in the Bible is so broad and deep. For example, The NT usage of salvation includes various aspects of freedom; freedom from being slave to anyone or anything, eternal life- freedom from power of death, abundant life- freedom from dying phenomenon, entering the kingdom of God- freedom of being trapped by evil influence, entering heaven- freedom from the world or body dominated by sin, being forgiven by God’s mercy, The world being transformed into the original garden of Eden, justification, sanctification, glorification, etc.
One thing for sure is that the NT does not redefine the meaning of salvation in Tanakh like physical rescuing or liberating from physical oppression, rather it deepens the meaning because all the physical aspects come along with the spiritual aspects.
I just felt i have to share what i know now. You said, “you can save yourself from your own sin by doing teshuva.” Yes, i agree. N.T. teaches that too; “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12.
“God has promised us that he will one day save us from our enemies,” Amen!!
God has miraculously saved Israel from her surrounding Arab enemies during the modern state of Israel. But what about AD 70? what about Holocaust? What about ceaseless terrorism against so many Jewish people? God is not keeping his promise? The “ONE DAY” has not come yet?
Paul (i want to call him ‘an apologist for Judaism’) explains in this way;
“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20. God’s promise always become “Yes” in the Messiah; how come? He died and rose again and conquered death! The Christ will avenge all the enemies including DEATH who brought death upon the covenant people.
“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” 1 Corinthians 15:25-26
Gean, your personal interpretation of historical events is irrelevant. Answer the question, or admit that the concept of salvation from one’s own sin is contrary to the teachings of the Hebrew Bible.
If you could have cited Scriptures to support this, as I have cited Scriptures against it, you would have done so by now. You haven’t because you can’t. Does this not trouble you? Can you not answer the question directly?
You have also created a definition of sin that does not exist in the Bible. Sin means dominating others. Where did you get this notion?
Woops! i mistyped; “Not trying to”…
Dina, yes. this troubles me but this makes me exciting to find the treasure hidden in the Scriptures. I am trying to teach you but suggesting that Sin starts from disobeying Genesis 1:28. The object of our ruling and subduing is 🐟, 🐦, and beasts. Not humans because they are created by God’ s image.
Once humans start to rule, subdue, dominate inappropriately (according to their lust or ambition) fellow humans, it becomes sin. Cain did it IN Genesis 4:7, people of Sodom and Gomorah did it in Gen. 18:20; Joseph’s brothers did it in Gen.50:17
Leviticus 25:43, 46, 53 all forbids ruling or dominating with rigour.
These verse have same connotations:
Psalm 119:134
GGj
If the new Testment teaches teshuva, why did God murder Jesus as a sacrifice? For what? BTW, Ph 2:12 does not mention teshuva, only salvation, “deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.” Now I’m not sure if that’s what Paul taught at the time because he then says in
Ph 2:13, “For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure.
Here Paul says God does the work to get us to act the way he wants.
@Larry,
“Ph 2:13, “For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure.
Here Paul says God does the work to get us to act the way he wants’.
Which is why Hebrews says what it does about the “supremacy of Christ”. No matter what anyone else may say, Hebrews 9-10 teaches a guaranteed practical perfection and sinlessness after conversion to christianity. Anything else “lays christ to an open shame”, “tramples the son of god under foot” and results in “a certain fiery expectation that will devour the adversaries”.
On the contrary, G-d Himself teaches of the sinless perfection of the soul through the eternal Yom Kippur sacrifice by L-RD Yeshua… the flesh will die [Genesis 2]
This ancient path of G-d’s testimony of G-d’s Redeemer is rejected by the Orthodox and the nations…
It is only by G-d’s grace that the Redeemed of Israel (both Jew and Gentile) understand….
__________________
__________________
KAVI, then why was Jesus not sacrificed on Yom Kippur?
Brother Larry, “work out your own salvation” is another expression of teshuva. You know that the author of Gospel of Luke equated the gospel with repentance!
“and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” Luke 24:47
The literal translation is “Repentance INTO forgiveness of sins.”
.I erased your transgressions like a thick cloud, and like a cloud have I erased your sins; return to Me for I have redeemed you.
I happened to pre clicked before completing, so i am adding my conclusion. Brother Larry, you asked why God delievered Yeshua onto the cross if the NT teaches teshuva.
To fulfill Isaiah 44:22!
When the people of God see their sins forgiven and erased, they can wholeheartedly return (repentance; teshuva) to their God. Otherwise, the fear of condemnation will hedge their hearts and feet to come back to God as Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Crucifixtion is not a substitution to repentance; it is motivation to repentance.
Let me add a couple of more verses.
“Godly sorrow brings REPENTANCE THAT LEADS TO SALVATION and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.” 2 Corinthians 7:10
Yeshua said, “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners INTO REPENTANCE.” Luke 5:32
Why the gentile physician LUke so emphasize the repentance? Because messianic gentiles might misunderstand the teachings of the Tanakh and it has happened to the Christians church sadly.
It would have been a good argument if Jesus would not have required believing in him as a prerequisite (mandatory) for forgiveness of sins…
I can’ t remember where Jesus has said that. Can you tell me where Jesus said that?
Really, Gean, is the Christian notion that belief in Jesus is required for atonement of sins new to you?
John 8:24 and many other places…
Brother RT and Sister Dina!
I have to confess that the eighth chapter of gospel of John really looks like anti-semitic.
However, as i study it in the original Greek and with the help of Tanach, i think i get closer to the original meaning of the author.
Let’s look at the cotroversial verse of John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM…
(?) , ye shall die in your sins.”
Most english translation put “he” after “I am,” However, the original text puts NO word after that! Notice, neither John put “I am that I am.” I believe Chrisitans added the trinitarian doctrine into the text, while the text never intened the audience to think that way! O have mercy on us!
What was John trying to say? John wants to say from the epilogue to the end of his gospel that Yeshua is the incarnated word of God!
“I AM- ego eimi” means the voice of God, the spoken word of God at Mt. Horeb.
Now, look very carefully how John described what happened next.
8:30 Yeshua said these WORDS, but many believed on HIM.
31. Then said Yeshua to those Jews who believed on HIM, if you coninue in my WORD, then are you my disciples indeed.
did you see that? Jews believed on Yeshua HIMSELF, but Yeshua wanted to turn their attention to the WORD ITSELF! and he said, “you shall know the truth (God’s word-tanach- John 17:17) and the truth shall make you free”
And the following conversations show us what it means to believe “ego eimi= I AM.”
‘The truth- the voice of God- I AM’ wil make people free from the bondage of sin! In other words, believing in I AM means believing in the word (voice) of God. Believing in the word of God means knowing the truth. Knowing the truth means Being set free from the bondage of sin. Being set free from the bondage of sin means fulfilling the commandments of God to avoid sin. Yeshua must have wanted to say, “believe the truth the word of God and live a life free from sin, otherwise you will die in your sins.”
Ezekiel 18:24 ” All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.”
I don’t see any difference!
Yeshua said that if men keep the Law and do it then they shall live. (Luke 10:28)
Paul said, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified” (Rom.2:13)
Paul summarized his gospel ministry in this way; “… that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.” (Acts 26:20.
Hi Gean, what does that mean “Yeshua is the incarnated word of God”?
When I speak, and everybody else for the matter of fact, an individual does not come literally out of my mouth! It was clear that as per Philo and other “greek” philosopher, the logos was an intermediary god of lesser level than the primary bigger god. Is that what you think, that the logos AKA Jesus was a lower god? Then that would contradict the SHEMA, whouldn’t it? If not, what the heck is Jesus? A man cannot be the word of G-d, an angel cannot be the word of G-d.
Second question, if all we need is to turn to G-d and do, then WHY? Why are you selling the New testament? I don’t see any advantage to read that book at all!
Gean, you find excuses to reinterpret texts that don’t fit your interpretation, instead of looking for the obvious meaning of the text! How can you be taken seriously?
“god said he does not need any means..”
It seems to me that When He does work of creation, He needed revealing His secrets by speaking of words.
“Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7
Gean, you seem to think (because of the Christian Bible’s interpretations) that G-d somehow requires perfection from humans, and that we have to be saved from sin. Here is the problem with that assesment.
G-d created absolutely everything that exists, and he said it was all very good.
Even the Satan was created by G-d himself. If you read the book of Job, you will notice clearly that Satan works for G-d. He is a servant of G-d who has the job of testing the righteous.
He is not an enemy of G-d who is at war with G-d. Nothing can be at war against G-d, the one who created all things.
G-d created the trees of knowledge and of life, he created the serpent that was in the garden, he created the angels, he gave Adam a commandment. He is the one who sets the standard by which everyone is judged.
Since G-d created everything, there is no need for him to come down and die to save us from something. There is nothing external to G-d to be saved from. Do you see the difference?
If you helieve in being saved from “sin” in Jewish terms, its like you are saying “I am being saved from G-d.”
G-d told Cain that if he repents and does what is tight and pleasing to G-d, he will master his sin.”
Sin is missing the mark. Anyone who is born struggles with Sin, but G-d says we can master it.
You seem to believe that the Satan is a fallen angel Lucifer who rebelled against G-d with 1/3 of the angels, and that this rebellion caused Adam’s descendants to ultimately be sunken in sin, which is why you believe Jesus had to save us.
You need to be aware that those beliefs (which are essential to Christianity,) are extra biblical in nature. Christians did not get their notions of a fall, or of Satan as a fallen angel from the Torah, but from appocryphal texts that were extra and widely read by Jews during the second temple era.
Only the 5 books of Moses, the prophets, and writings can establish doctrine in Judaism.
If you read only those books as authoritative, you will not come away thinking that man is sunken in sin the way Christians do.
Brother CR, salvation from sin does not guarantee the free ticket to entrance of eternal life, nor exempt the people from keeping the Torah. NT teaches that God’s people must live the righteous life; Faith comes so that the law might be FULFILLED!
God’s Salvation in my understanding of both Hebrew and Christian Bible means “being set free from bondage or oppression or inappropriate dominating by others” Sin means “dominating others- God’s image bearer inappropriately” I understand in this way; how did Yeshua save us from sin? WE tend to dominate, rule, or influence others according to our own desire and ambition (not according to God’s design). Sin starts from our lust and ambition. Sin pervades in human society. We must kill our own lust- the old self. In order for that, We need to see a pefect example of somebody who laid down his life and desire to obey God. HE came to serve, not to be served. His life and death has influenced humanity so greatly that we have seen many saints. In the history of Jewish people in Tanakh, we also see many saints.
Cain must have mastered sin which is like a beast couching to jump in. How can we master? we must have courage not to fear of the sin. The best way? when we see the death of the sin or corpse of the beast, we get courage and master it. When Israelites feared of the 7 Cannanite tribes, Caleb and Joshua did not fear rather they regarded as rice! something dead! So they were able to conquer.
When God started the new world after the Flood, Noah’s family wouldn’t be able to survive without courage to master the beasts. So God said, “the fear and dread of You will fall upon all the beasts, birds, and fish” (Gen.9:2). Humanity can believe that The sin got nailed and killed on the cross so that WE could fight against the powerless sin and that we can conquer the power of death because we can resurrect as Yeshua did.
In conclusion, salvation from sin is “being set free from the power of condemnation of sin” so that we might live a righteous life without fear of being condemned when failed.
If there is no condemnation of sin, grace may abound, but sin abounds all the more, which is why Christianity fails by its own standards. Belief in Jesus’ death on the cross doesn’t free humanity from petiness, bitterness, or strife. Would that it did, we would not need to be having this conversation.
Christians have been telling Jews for centuries that the law cannot save because it gives you a choice. It doesn’t make you holy. The thing is Gean, the gospel doesn’t make humans holy either.
There are countless groups of Christians who all claim that their reading of the gospel is the true reading, and they all claim justification through the cross, but none of them actually live a life free of judgment or fear.
I grew up Protestant, had Catholic family, and Orthodox friends, so my exposure to the Church (including university education) is pretty broad when it comes to Christianity.
The problem with your view of Jesus, his crucifixion, and Christianity, is that your view fails in the same way the law fails.
Jesus may have been a great man, (and for the record, I don’t dislike Jesus.) But his Crucifixion doesn’t actually release a person from fear of death, nor does it release one from sinful desire. In fact, I have observed firsthand that Christians have a haughtiness of spirit because they believe that G-d will forgive them all their wrongs no matter what, no matter how severe.
Belief in Jesus creates a kind of spiritual wellfare check where the recipient then looks down on the one who refuses the check.
All Jews want is to practice their religion in peace the way their ancestors have done. You have provided an explanation for sin, (according to your understanding,) but that is just the problem, ITS YOUR PRIVATE UNDERSTANDING.
We have to have a baseline for discussion. A starting point. For Jews, the starting point is “does this ideology mesh with the plain meaning of the commands in the Jewish bible?”
Brother, we can look at the bright side. God has not failed His ministry to transform this world. He gave Israel the law and demonstrated His power and love so that they live out the law in the eyes of the humanity. The law has been the fountain of morality of all society. The law never fails. It is the word of God that has power to impact upon the human will. You know that what it means when Yeshua said ” I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” The law is being fulfilled even now.
In the same way, Countless men and women followed the selfless life of Yeshua. They gave their lives to serve others and to promote God’s will on earth. As you said, crucifixion does not automatically release one from sinful desire but millions Koreans have come to faith in God through the divine love demonstrated on the cross. Today, my two aunts decided to leave shamanism and buddhism and idol worship; instead accepted Yeshua to believe and trust in the God of Israel!
“In the same way, Countless men and women followed the selfless life of Yeshua. They gave their lives to serve others and to promote God’s will on earth. As you said, crucifixion does not automatically release one from sinful desire but millions Koreans have come to faith in God through the divine love demonstrated on the cross. Today, my two aunts decided to leave shamanism and buddhism and idol worship; instead accepted Yeshua to believe and trust in the God of Israel!”
Hi Gean,
You have mentioned a few times of how believing in Yeshua have brought many Koreans closer to the G-d of Israel .
I come from a country in South East Asia .Like Korea ,many in my country have come to know the G-d of Israel through Jesus ,thanks to the efforts of missionaries (mainly from Europe) in the last couple of centuries .They left their families to spread the message among ignorant ,pagan people and at the same time uplifted their lives through education ,health services etc. Many have made my country their home ,died and are buried here.I dare say that we would not have progressed as much without their efforts.
These missionaries have raised strong Asian Christian communities who in turn went to other countries across the globe to spread the “Good News” and helping the communities they are sent to.I’m sure you would agree with me that there is massive growth of Christianity in Asia.This phenomenon somewhat balance out the stagnation or decline of Christianity in the West.
The Christian version of the Bible (OT and NT) was translated to many Asian languages and dialects . Many came to know and love the Patriarchs ,prophets and Psalms from reading these Scriptures in their native language.Unfortunately these scriptures are being read and understood with Jesus as its “key” to unlocking its meaning .Thereby the Asian Christian has a very distorted view of the G-d of Israel ,their true worth in His eyes and of the Jewish people, His First born.
On one hand ,I’m happy that your aunts have agreed to trust in the G-d of Israel .On the other hand ,I’m concerned as to whether they will have an accurate picture of Him.I am concerned not only for your aunts but for every Asian who are being “converted” at this time.
You and I ,who have the privilege of hearing from G-d’s firstborn -they know Him best ,have the responsibility to present Him accurately to those who are seeking.There are dedicated Jewish and former Christians here who are doing their best to educate ,to undo the distorted picture that Christianity has painted over the Jewish scriptures .I do hope that you take heed of their guidance and make that change.
Thank you.
Sister Sharon, i agree 100% with what you said here. Thanks.
Hi Gean,
I’m interested to know why you regard Buddhism in particular more pagan religion than Christianity?
On the one hand, many of the concepts of proper life are shared between Judaism, Christianity and Buddhism.
On the other hand, there are insurmountable differences regarding the nature and identity of God between the three.
But I don’t see much difference between all the new religions, (which we might as well call “pagan”) – Christianity, Buddhism and Islam for example – in regards to the distance from Judaism (Torah and Tanakh).
Brother CR, i believe that the problem of today’s Christian church is not only in lack of doing what they believe but also in believing wrongly especially N.T. They have failed to teach what it means to Believe in Jesus’ death on the cross. New sermons and new revelations need to teach specidically How the belief impacts our daily lives. Not just do this do that but why you can do and how God made it easy and light to do.
The law cannot save? Well, i guess it depends on how do you define “save.”
The New does not teach that “work out your own salvation?” It is exactly same as Judaism teaches?
Gean, the problem is that nobody can control how someone reads a book, try as they might.
You might indeed have a positive reading of the New Testament, but it is irrelevant, because its your opinion against other bigger opinions.
To put this another way. When G-d was on Sinai speaking to Moses and the Jewish people, (the context in which the bible was 1st delivered to humans,) did G-d talk about a sin nature? Did he mention Satan and a fall into sin that humans must be saved from? No.
He said to Israel that if they observed the commandments he was giving them that day, that they would be blessed and live in the land. He said the commandments were not too hard or beyond their ability to observe. He even said that the covenant of Sinai was his covenant of love with Israel.
So Gean, while I understand why you read scripture the way you do, its not the Jewish way of reading the scripture.
! The Christ will avenge all the enemies including DEATH who brought death upon the covenant people.
The concept of death as “the enemy” is an extra biblical notion Gean. The angel of death in the Hebrew Bible did G-d’s bidding during the Exodus, just like Satan does G-d’s bidding in the book of Job.
There are two very direct examples for you of places where the New Testament plainly differs with the ideas we find in the Torah.
Brother CR, I don’t see any “angel of death” during Passover. Where is it?
Now, the concept of death as ‘the enemy’ is extra biblical?
Haven’t you read the concept when the Pharisee Paul quoted Tanach in 1 Corinthians 15:54, 55?
Isaiah 25:8, “.And He shall destroy on this mountain the face of the covering that covers all the peoples and the kingdom that rules over all the nations. He has CONCEALED (Swallowed up) death forever… ”
Hosea 13:14. “From the clutches of the grave I would ransom them, from death I would redeem them; I WILL BE YOUR WORDS OF DEATH (or, you could translate “I will be thy plagues, O death”) ; I will decree the grave upon you. Remorse shall be hidden from My eyes.”
Gean, Paul’s reading is his personal interpretation of the verses. My point was, Satan is not mentioned in these verses.
The angel of death came during the plague of the 1st born in the Exodus. G-d sent the angel of death during the plague.
Gean wrote; “However, as i study it in the original Greek”
But you don’t actually speak Koine Greek, do you? The translators who know Koine Greek knew what they were doing, and the point Jesus was making. Jesus already established who the “he” is in the previous section, and is claiming to be the “he” mentioned earlier ( the christos). In fact, “I am he” is far less trinitarian than just putting “I AM” and stretching itsa use to a reference to the “voice of God” in a broad manner.. And the “I am” is copula here, not a quote of the tetragrammaton.
Brother Eleazar, probably you are right.
Hoever, how do we know the translators knew it exactly what they were doing?
Also, we see how Yeshua identifies himself using “ego eimi”
I am the bread of life, the light of the world, the gate, the good shepherd,
the resurrection and the life, the way the truth and the life, the vine.
All these are the very expressions for the power and function of the Word of God.
Remember, Eleazar, among the four gospels, it is the Gospel of John that records more words of Jesus than other gospels do.
I hope you are all having an excellent new year. 🙂