Riding the Light – Excerpt from Seventh Response to D.L.

1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources

The greatest light is God’s truth. The greatest happiness of humanity is to receive that light – and God promised that humanity will one day merit to receive that light (Isaiah 60:3). At the time of creation, God planted certain basic truths into the hearts of human beings. This is our ability to sense right from wrong, to enjoy truth and to be repulsed by falsehood. God also chose a nation for Himself, and He planted certain truths into the heart of this nation (Deuteronomy 4:35). For many centuries the Jewish people walked with this truth, but their Gentile neighbors did not appreciate it. The miracles that God performed for Hezekiah represented a turning point in history. From that point on, the Gentile nations began to seek the God of Israel (Isaiah 19:18). The phenomena of Gentiles seeking the God of Israel continued to grow – until the time of…

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145 Responses to Riding the Light – Excerpt from Seventh Response to D.L.

  1. Rabbi you are right to say that “Christians taught the world that the Jewish people are ‘false witnesses.'”
    I think one of the reasons is that there are several accounts in the N.T. that do influence with this wrong image of the Jewish people.

    Take the persecution of Stephen for example in Acts 6:13 -14 “they set false witnesses, saying this man keep speaking words against this holy place and the Law. Indeed we have heard him saying that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and will change the customs that Moses delivered to us”
    This gave many Christians the impression that Jewish people were false witnesses. However, is that what the author is trying to say? No! I believe it is trying to say that a true Christian like Stephen does NOT speak against the temple and the Mosaic Law and customs!!

    Those who heard the long sermon of Stephen and saw his angelic face tried to kill him. Were they called “false witnesses?” No. Acts 7:58 says “the WITNESSES laid aside their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.” As the prophet Elijah threw the garment onto Elisha to transfer (?) the prophetic ministry symbolically, the persecutors laid their garments onto Saul so that Saul persecute the church in order for the church to scatter throughout Judea and Samaria and preach the Gospel. The prophecy of gospel witnessing beyond Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria, spoken by Yeshua (Acts 1:8) has been fulfilled due to their persecution.

    The Jewish persecutors and the Pharisee Saul were all witnesses of God’ s work providentially.

    SAUL did not start the gospel ministry after the Damascus conversion, he already started when the persecutors’ garments were put on his feet.

    Without SAUL’ s persecution on David, David would not have become the king as God designed him to be. Without SAUL’ s persecution on church, church would not have become the light to the nations as God purposed her to be.

    • Gean Guk Jeon yes or no? Is it true testimony or false testimony when the Jewish people tell the world that the heart of every human being belongs to the God who created that hearty and to Him alone? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • True Testimony!! The heart of every human being bears the mark of God’s image and the HIS law, Paul calls it conscience.
        Jewish people, whether they reject the Gospel or not, their existence and their fearless devotion to God have made the history HIS story!

        • Alan says:

          Gean,
          Yes or no – is it true testimony when the Jewish people tell the world that the heart of every human being belongs only to God and not to God together with a being who is either 100% man or 100% man and 100% god?

      • Rabbi~ Shalom!
        I am supposed to lead Early Morning Prayer meeting with Isaiah 9:6 at 5:00am here in S. Korea.
        The child is called everlasting Father ad mighty God?? I personally dont like the term Trinity but a little stuck in this verse. Please help me, or anyone can help me~

        • Alan says:

          Gean,
          First try to figure out who the child. Google it. When you know who the child is, we’d be happy to discuss your question.

          • I dont know bro! Just tell me who thw child is! And how Judaism teaches! Thanks for quick response.

          • Alan says:

            King Hezekiah: according to Judaism, in ISA 9:5 the righteous King Hezekiah, a child of King Ahaz, is called Prince of Peace by God. The Hebrew term Sar-shalom in Isaiah 9:5 of the Hebrew Tanakh translates as ‘Prince of Peace’.

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            A thank you would be nice.

          • RT says:

            For a clue, look at Rezin, the king of Syria.

            Isaiah 7:8

            For the head of Syria is Damascus, And the head of Damascus is Rezin. Within sixty-five years Ephraim will be broken, So that it will not be a people.
            In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

            Isaiah 8:6

            “Inasmuch as these people refused The waters of Shiloah that flow softly, And rejoice in Rezin and in Remaliah’s son;
            In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

            Isaiah 9:11

            Therefore the Lord shall set up The adversaries of Rezin against him, And spur his enemies on,

            If Rezin is in Isaiah 7 to Isaiah 9:11, the Child talked to in Isaiah 9:6 must be alive during Rezin’s life.

            Also, your translation is not necessary wrong, but could also be render as follow:

            5.For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

            Finally names don’t necessary mean that the child will be G-d. Look at Jeremiah 33:16

            And this is the name whereby she (Jerusalem) shall be called, YHVH is our righteousness.

          • Alan says:

            Thank you RT!

          • RT says:

            Gean, do you agree that Jeremiah 23 talks about the messiah?

            I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the Lord.

            “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
            “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
            A King shall reign and prosper,
            And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

            In His days Judah will be saved,
            And Israel will dwell safely;
            Now this is His name by which He will be called:

            THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[a]

            “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”

            If so, does that fit Jesus? See my comments in bracket…

            David a Branch of righteousness

            (the credential of Jesus are at least doubtful. We cannot even conclude that he was from the house of David. From Matthew, Josef is not his father and there is the curse of Jechoniah. And from Luke, the line goes from Nathan, while the messiah needs to come from Solomon. Furthermore, the lineage is always from the father side, not from the mother side.)

            A King shall reign and prosper,
            And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

            (A LITERAL KING WILL REIGN AND EXECUTE JUDGMENT ON THE EARTH)

            In His days:

            (WHILE HE IS STILL ALIVE)

            Judah will be saved,

            (JUDAH WILL BE SAVED FROM THEIR ENEMIES. SAVED DOES NOT MEAN SAVED FROM SINS)

            And Israel will dwell safely;

            (THIS EXPOND ON THE SALVATION OF JUDAH. SAVED = DWELL SAFELY IN THE LAND)

            THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

            (SAME WORD TO DESCRIBE JERUSALMEN AND TO DESCRIBE THE MESSIAH THIS MEANS THAT THE MESSIAH WILL BE IN ACCORD WITH HIS PEOPLE, NOT AGAINST THEM AND CURSING THEM)

            As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”

            (THE MESSIAH, WHO IS A LITERAL KING WILL BRING THE JEWS BACK TO THEIR LAND, WHILE HE IS STILL ALIVE).

            This passage is clearly speaking about the messiah, both Jews and Christians agree. It shows clear expectation of what the messiah will do. Jesus never did that, and this is not a second coming prophecy. Also, it makes not sense to take it in a spiritual level. This debunk the claims of Jesus as the messiah.

        • Gean Hezekiah means “mighty God” – search in the window for Isaiah 9 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  2. Yes!
    True testimony!
    As far as i understand Tanakh and N.T.,
    the most influential proponent of that testimony is Yeshua who showed the fellow human how to faithfully Serve HIM Only and obey the heart of God the Creator.
    “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy 2:5

    • LarryB says:

      Gean
      Are you saying serve Jesus only, and obey God?

      • My question is this: is it ok to praise and obey the Word of God like David did in Psalm 119? To Serve or to worship is עובד right?
        In Tanakh the wordעובד is used not only to Hashem but also between the men of God. How should we understand this?

        • Alan says:

          Gean,
          I’m sorry but I don’t understand what your are asking about the word “oved”. It means to work or to serve. The God of Israel doesn’t want us to serve words, not even his words. He doesn’t want us to serve the Torah or His commandments. He only wants us to serve Him. He has let us know how to serve Him through written and spoken words. So I’m not sure what you’re asking.

          • How do we serve God? Without His words and commands and Torah, how do we know Him, His will, and His desire for us to serve? How do we obey Him without hearing His words? Isnt it legitimate to say we serve and obey and work for His Words ?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            It is completely wrong to say we serve or work for God’s words. God’s words are not Him. They are the medium He uses to communicate with people. If we follow His words we are doing it to follow Him. It is pure idolatry to make His words into the boss.

          • Ok make sense and very clear brother.
            Let me ask you.
            The creator God is only one who stands FOREVER and all other creatures are not eternal. It is right or wrong?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            Only the Father is intrinsically eternal. He can share his enternity with people but our enternity is dependent on His independent eternity.

          • Amen.
            Also the word of our God is eternal too in Isaiah 40:8?

          • Alan says:

            “The word of our God will endure forever”.

            Gean, do you think the Tanakh is saying that God’s words are also gods to be worshiped. Is this what you think this verse means? Do you think it’s possible to understand this verse in a way that doesn’t make a god out of words?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            Using your logic that anything that is called eternal is God, from the following two verses you can make for yourself a few gods. You can make the seed of David god and also the sun and the moon god!

            Psalms 89: 37-38 –
            His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before Me.
            It shall be established for ever as the moon; and be steadfast as the witness in sky.’ Selah

            The sun, moon and seed of David are eternal, so let’s worship them too! Gean, could this possibly be what the Tanakh meant?

            And while were at it, let’s make some more gods.

            Psalms 100:5 –
            “For the LORD is good; His kindness endureth for ever” – let’s worship God’s kindness.

            Daniel 12:3 –
            And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn the many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. – let’s worship people who influence many to keep the commandments, after all, these people will shine eternally. They must be god too. See what you can do with the Tanakh if you make it your plaything?

          • I like it too Alan.
            Your argument is so strong.
            Let me ask you another one.
            The word of God is creature
            Like sun, moon, seed of David?
            I mean the word of God is something God creates from nothing?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            Yes, the word of God is a creation from nothing. It’s what He created to communicate with His creatures that have intelligence. Words and thoughts are also creations of His but they are less physical than the sun and the moon.

          • Thanks for the reply. Then why Torah does not say “in the beginning God created word” first before creating the world through the word?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            Genesis 1:1 – “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

            Which beginning did Hashem pick to start the Torah with? Hashem could have started the Torah from a different starting point, but He chose to begin the Torah with the creation of the heaven and the earth, not with creations that proceeded the heaven and earth. Hashem felt it wasn’t necessary for the text to let us know what came before the creation of heaven and earth. But we see that by Hashem’s speech – His words – He brought things into being –

            And God said: ‘Let there be light.’ And there was light.
            And God said: ‘Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.’
            And God said: ‘Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.’ And it was so.
            And God said: ‘Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.’ And it was so.
            and on and on…..

            God created with His words. The Torah just could have said “And God made light”, “And God made the firmament”, “And God made the earth put forth grass”. Instead the Torah let us know that God used speech to create everything.

            Also Psalms 33:6 tells us the same: “By the word of Hashem were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”

            But your answer is in Proverbs chapter 8 which is all about the Torah – God’s words – before he created heaven and earth –

            22 The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.
            23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
            24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
            25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth;
            26 While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
            27 When He established the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep,
            28 When He made firm the skies above, when the fountains of the deep showed their might,
            29 When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not transgress His commandment, when He appointed the foundations of the earth;
            30 Then I was by Him, as a nursling; and I was daily all delight, playing always before Him,
            31 Playing in His habitable earth, and my delights are with the sons of men. {P}

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            If you read the entire chapter 8 of Proverbs you will that the subject is speaking in the first person and that subject is Wisdom – God’s words – and you will see that it was brought into being from nothing before the heaven and earth were created. Also, if you still want to say that God and His words are one and the same, then you have to also say that everything in heaven and earth is also God because as we see in Genesis 1, everything in creation came into existence from His words – His words are the life of everything. Everything is His words. So you will also be forced into pantheism – that everything is identical with God.

          • Brother Alan.
            If God’s wisdom was created,
            Then God was not wise before he created it and had it? There was a time when God was not wise, thinking and acting unwisely?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            God had wisdom before He started making anything spiritual or physical. Just like we can’t know the true nature of God, we can’t know the true nature of His wisdom and knowledge. His wisdom and knowledge are not like our wisdom and knowledge. Before He could bring finite things into existence He needed to do something with His infinity so it wouldn’t drown out His creations. He had to do something with his infinite wisdom so that His creations could receive it and process it. So He made finite vessels called words that would conceal His infinite wisdom from His creations and that would also reveal as much of it that His creation could handle. Proverbs 8 is speaking about this vessel He made in order to share His infinite wisdom with His finite creations. The vessel is called the Torah and it is composed of other vessels called words.
            Only Hashem is infinite. Words are vessels – a finite creation.

          • LarryB says:

            Alan
            That’s really good!

          • Alan says:

            I’m glad you liked it my precious brother.

          • hello alan, in judaism do you have a belief in which Gods knowledge is part of him and is an essential attribute of God, but God speaking/communicating his knowledge is not essential attribute because God can CHOOSE WHEN to speak, but God CANNOT choose NOT to know because His knowledge is always part of him?

          • Alan says:

            MHC,
            Yes indeed.
            Just to expand on what you wrote – God’s infinity is beyond our understanding. We can’t really define or know what His wisdom and knowledge are. They are not separate attributes or parts of Him. He is one and we can’t understand what kind of oneness this is. We only use the words wisdom and knowledge about God metaphorically. There are no pieces or parts or attributes within Him that are “really one” like the trinity.

          • Brother heathcliff. Thanks for joining and clarifying the ambiguous part of our discussion. Humans have lanuguage system which inherit from the birth, so speaking out those languages does not mean “creating” languages, rather “bringing forth” or “revealing” languages. I think God’s word and wisdom should be understood that way. God fornew His word and wisdom before He speak out.

            That is why the Pharisee Paul declared “God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.” in Romans 11:2

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            The Torah says that His word became everything (I showed you the verses) So why do you say that we can only worship Yeshua but nothing else?

          • Brother, i dont think His word BECAME everything. His word did not become Satan or idols.

            Everything became OUTCOME from His word. Both Torah and N.T. teach that God’ s word and wisdom was God’s “partner or coworker” in His creation work, not “material.”

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            Let’s look at Proverbs chapter 8 again –

            22 The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.
            23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was.
            30 Then I was by Him, as a nursling; and I was daily all delight, playing always before Him,

            Gean, this says that Hashem MADE the Torah and SET UP the Torah. The Torah was “by Him”. Hashem put SOME of His wisdom (which is the same as Himself) into the created vessel called the Torah for the sake of human beings. Human beings can’t grasp ALL of His Wisdom (which is Himself) so Hashem put SOME of His Wisdom into vessels (words of Torah) that we CAN drink from.

            Also, His word did become Satan and idols.

          • Did God ever say “Let there be Satan” and there was Satan?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            There are plenty of things for which it doesn’t say “And God said let there be”. There are just too many things to list each one in the Torah. For example, it doesn’t say anywhere in Tanakh, “And God said let there be Yeshua”. It actually doesn’t even say “Let there be Messiah”. So since the Torah doesn’t say “Let there be Messiah” can we say that God’s word did not become the Messiah?

          • Hashem MADE the wisdom in Proverbs 8: 22? Which verb did it use?
            Bara ברא to create
            Assa עשה to make
            Qana קנה to get or to possess or to buy

            To create is to make brand new existence from nothing.
            To make is to make new existence from something.
            To get or to buy is to bring forth or to relocate something which ALREADY Exist!!

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            How do you understand the verb “koneh” in Genesis 14:19? –

            יט וַיְבָרְכֵהוּ, וַיֹּאמַר: בָּרוּךְ אַבְרָם לְאֵל עֶלְיוֹן, קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ. 19 And he blessed him, and said: ‘Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth;

            Are you saying the heaven and earth always existed?

          • As far as i know, Koneh is to buy in modern Hebrew. Kanah is to buy or to possess or to get in Tanakh. Right?

            I think “possessor of heaven and earth” is better fit than “maker of heaven and earth” because the priest Melchizedek wanted to GIVE blessing to Abaram (maybe by giving bread and wine) in the name of God who possesses everything under heaven and earth. That was the reason why he called Hashem as possessor who possess victory, blessing, tithes and everything!

          • Alan says:

            Yes, kana usually means to acquire ownership of something. But when it’s used about Hashem it doesn’t make sense to say that he acquired ownership of heaven and earth, which is why in this verse it has the connotation of “maker”. So too in this verse from Proverbs –

            כב יְהוָה–קָנָנִי, רֵאשִׁית דַּרְכּוֹ: קֶדֶם מִפְעָלָיו מֵאָז. 22 The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old.

            Are you saying the the verb “kanani” in this verse means that God acquired ownership of something that always existed? Does that make sense? The verse also says “as the beginning of His way”. What does it mean that he took ownership of wisdom as the beginning of His way if you are saying this wisdom is actually Himself and always existed?

          • Alan says:

            24I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. (Proverbs 8:24).

            The word for created here is holalti – which means “I was created”. I don’t know how I missed this until now, but I did. The Torah was created as a vessel to contain Hashem’s wisdom – so it IS Hashem’s wisdom but not all of it. A rock is also Hashem’s wisdom – but not all of it. The Torah is composed of words. Don’t worship the words, don’t worship the Torah, worship the Infinite ineffable Father – if you want to call the Father “Wisdom” with a capital W, I have no problem with that. But words, and man, and spirit and soul are all limited creations so don’t worship them.

          • “He is one and we can’t understand what kind of oneness this is”

            yes, i agree. but we all know that 3 things are not 1 thing. and 3 in 1 is not one. we all know this.

          • Alan says:

            MHC,
            But Christians convince themselves that 3 in 1 is 1.
            “One” according to Judaism and Islam is that there are no distinctions or delineations in God and we can’t give a name to anything that He is – except that he IS. That’s really all we can say about what He is – that he exists. This explains why the main name for Hashem is the tetragramaton – the four letter name which is composed of the words haya (he was), hoveh (he is) and yiyeh (he will be) – He exists and gives existence. That’s really all we can say about WHAT He is. Everything else that He does is just an expression of what He values and wants. As soon as one gives a name to something and says that that something is Him, you have made an idol. Even the names of God are not Him; they are vessels and signs made for the sake of people to facilitate having a relationship with Him.

    • Alan says:

      Gean,
      So if you were in a difficult situation, God forbid, and you saw no way out, you would never call out to Yeshua, “Yeshua help me!” because you believe that the only one who runs the world and can save is the Father? And you believe that Yeshua was 100% man and 0% God?

      • Is it wrong to cry out to God that Gr8 may send His WORDS or Angel?
        And is it sin to ask for help God’s anointed king or prophet or angel? If i call “Yeshua help me,” i call him as a mediator between God and men, not as God himself. By the way, i think all the Jews and Christians are called to be the helping hands of God to one another.
        Yeshua was 100% man and all men has divine image and some divinity in them. Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term. The NT teaches that The logos of God= word, wisdom, image, power, glory, son OF God.

        • Alan says:

          Gean,

          If you think the Father can’t save you without this other thing (Jesus) or you put your trust in this other thing to save you, it’s a big no-no. This violates “You shall serve no other powers” and “You shall have no other powers before Me.” This means not to put your trust in any forms for running the world or running your life.

          I don’t understand what you wrote:
          “Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”

          • How did God save Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham, His descendants, Ninevites, Jews in Babylonian Exile and all the nations? Through His Words!! God reveal His salavtion and His power through His Word. I trust 100% in God only. Psalm 119:42 ” … I trust in your Word..”

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            We don’t worship His words. We try our best to fulfill His words in order to serve Him. We serve the Boss, not his ink, not his books, not his prophets.

          • Amen bro. We serve the Boss by obeying His words and work for His decree and commands and His heart revealed in His words, not by obeying ink and books.

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            We don’t worship His words or His prophets.

          • What do you mean “worship” in this sentence?
            Bow down?
            Praise and sing?
            Work for?
            Trust?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            By “worship” I mean to recognize in your mind and to feel in your heart that everything you have is a pure gift of love from your Father. Everything good and not so good comes from His love for you and you want to thank Him by giving back to Him, by thanking Him in words, by thanking him by doing what He has asked us to do, by honoring Him and revering Him. To express your recognition and feeling that He is the source of life, He is with you always and He leads you on every step of your life. And you want to thank Him for his words and for the people that He has sent to help you in your life. We are obligated to thank others for the good they have done for us, but we cannot worship them for the good they have done for us. Do you get what I’m trying to say? If it’s not clear please ask further.

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            I don’t understand what you wrote:
            “Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”

  3. No! Brother Larry!
    Serve HaShem Only ! Yeshua said.
    Obey the heart of God the creator!
    He showed the example.
    You know how the N.T. teaches!

    • LarryB says:

      Gean
      Thanks for clarifying that we serve and obey God only. Is it ok then to place all my faith in God? If I failed to have faith “not just belief” in God, wouldn’t that stop me from having a close relationship with him?

      • LarryB says:

        Gean
        Sosa why do I need Jesus?
        Lb

        • Brother Larry,
          Don’t you need God’s salvation ישוע?
          I need it because i know my past is not eligible to be declared righteous before God’s Torah. Many Chrisitans think Yeshua is for our righteousness. Yes but only secondarily. Romans 3:21 declares that “Righteousness of God besides the Torah is revealed!”

          How would God judge His people who fail to observe the entire Torah? At the same time, How would God keep His promise of everlasting love and forgiveness upon His people no matter what they have done?

          When choosing only one of these- justice and love- will damage His glory and righteousness. So God’ s righteousness has been revealed in what God has done in Yeshua. Not only We need him but God also need him too for His own glory and righteousness.

          • Gean Guk Jeon More than we need salvation, we need to obey God. It doesn’t make sense that we should get salvation through an act of disobedience. And accepting Jesus is an act of disobedience,

            Gean Guk Jeon – please answer this question – who is a more honest servant – a man who obeys every last word his master says but doesn’t see himself as subservient to the master but rather thinks he is an equal or is it the servant who doesn’t perfectly obey every last instruction but knows with every fiber of his being that he is a servant and that the master is master?

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • “More than we need salvation, we need to obey God” Amen rabbi!

            I think Salavation is not the result of our obedience to God ; rather, salvation is the motivation for us to obey God.

            Please answer this question – who is more happier one? Son who obeys Father but inwardly knows even though he fail to obey, His father would forgive because the Father already paid for it vs. Servant who obeys Master but inwardly knows if he fails to obey, His Master would have to kick him out because of the contract?

          • Alan says:

            “Son who obeys Father but inwardly knows even though he fail to obey, His father would forgive because the Father already paid for it”

            Judaism is “Son who tries to obey Father but sometimes fails and inwardly knows even though he fails to obey sometimes , His father would forgive because the Father gave the son the gift of teshuva. And the Father says if you do teshuva, I consider this payment for your mistakes.” This is Judaism. And Christianity slandered the Father to the whole world.

          • I know brother. Christianity also call the good news as “repentance and forgiveness of sins” in Luke 24:47.

            However, the gift of teshuva is what we need to do. Then what did God pay to process our repentance? He certainly has to revoke his promise of judgment right? What Ransom does Judaism have besides repentance?

            Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: REPENTANCE shall be hid from mine eyes.”

            Repentance is our process to come to God and to be forgiven.
            Ransom is the action of God to accept our repentance to forgive us.

          • Alan says:

            “Repentance is our process to come to God and to be forgiven.” – Gean, you should have stopped writing here. The next thing you wrote is not in Tanakh –

            “Ransom is the action of God to accept our repentance to forgive us.” This is the slander against the Father. This is the filthy slander that has made humanity hate the Father and his firstborn son, the Jews. You should have stopped after the first sentence.

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            It appears you are trying to deceive people because I assume since you quoted Hoshea you also know the chapter right after the one you quoted –

            You quoted:
            “Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: REPENTANCE shall be hid from mine eyes.”

            You stopped hear to let people think that God will not accept our teshuva without SOMETHING ELSE on top of it (i.e. Jesus’s blood). Gean, are you telling me that you have never read chapter 14, the very next chapter. If you haven’t I apologize for getting upset at you –

            ב שׁוּבָה, יִשְׂרָאֵל, עַד, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ: כִּי כָשַׁלְתָּ, בַּעֲו‍ֹנֶךָ. 2 Return, O Israel, unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast stumbled in thine iniquity.
            ג קְחוּ עִמָּכֶם דְּבָרִים, וְשׁוּבוּ אֶל-יְהוָה; אִמְרוּ אֵלָיו, כָּל-תִּשָּׂא עָו‍ֹן וְקַח-טוֹב, וּנְשַׁלְּמָה פָרִים, שְׂפָתֵינוּ. 3 Take with you words, and return unto the LORD; say unto Him: ‘Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.
            ד אַשּׁוּר לֹא יוֹשִׁיעֵנוּ, עַל-סוּס לֹא נִרְכָּב, וְלֹא-נֹאמַר עוֹד אֱלֹהֵינוּ, לְמַעֲשֵׂה יָדֵינוּ–אֲשֶׁר-בְּךָ, יְרֻחַם יָתוֹם. 4 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses; neither will we call any more the work of our hands our gods; for in Thee the fatherless findeth mercy.’
            ה אֶרְפָּא, מְשׁוּבָתָם–אֹהֲבֵם, נְדָבָה: כִּי שָׁב אַפִּי, מִמֶּנּוּ. 5 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely; for Mine anger is turned away from him.

            Gean, tell us where the “ransom” is in here? Where is the blood? Where is there even any animal sacrifice? You owe us a big apology.

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            And you misrepresented Hoshea. Hoshea doesn’t even use the word “teshuva” in the verse. Some English translations translate “noham” as repentance but YOU WHO KNOWS SOME HEBREW KNOWS it doesn’t mean teshuva! Admit it to everyone here.

            Hoshea 13:14 –
            From the clutches of the grave I would ransom them, from death I would redeem them; I will be your words of death; I will decree the grave upon you. NOHAM (REMORSE) shall be hidden from My eyes. ידמִיַּד שְׁאוֹל אֶפְדֵּם מִמָּוֶת אֶגְאָלֵם אֱהִי דְבָרֶיךָ מָוֶת אֱהִי קָטָבְךָ שְׁאוֹל נֹחַם יִסָּתֵר מֵעֵינָי:

            Here is the plain explanation of this verse:

            “From the clutches of the grave I would ransom them”: I am He Who would ransom them from the clutches of the grave and redeem them from death, but now…

            “I will be your words of death”: Heb. אֱהִי דְבָרֶי. I will place Myself to speak of you words of death.

            I will decree… upon you: Heb. קָטָבְ. I will decree upon you the decree of the grave.

            “Remorse shall be hidden from My eyes”: Heb. נֹחַם. I will not regret this evil. נֹחֵם is an expression of regret (נִחוּם).

          • Gean Guk Jeon The even happier one is the one who knows his father forgives him because he loves him and accepts his sincere apology 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Alan says:

            Gut gezugt (well said), Rabbi B!

          • Alan says:

            Also, if it means that my father has to kill one of his sons, my brother, in order for him to be able to accept my sincere apology, then I really don’t care if he forgives me or not. All I care about is that he should be locked up in the psychiatric ward of a high security prison.

          • Amen!!
            To me, it is great happiness but what about the Father’s heart?

            Seems like our Father has a broken heart because everyday He hears the crying out from the innocent blood from the ground which started from Abel.

            Since the beginning of history of mankind, how much innocent blood have cried out to God so that He had to do something? I dont know…

  4. Alan says:

    Gean,

    Could you please explain what you meant by:
    “Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”

  5. Alan says:

    Gean,

    Could you please explain what you mean by:
    “Yeshua has full divinity, not in ontological term but in theological term.”

    • Im so sorry late. This one did not appear to my app but found out on the entire page. N.T. never says “Yeshua is God, nor God became flesh.” It says ” The word became flesh.” Theologically speaking, Yeshua as the Word- incarnated has full divinity as one who has full divine attributes. However, ontologically, if Yeshua IS God, it means God died on the cross or God resided only in Israel in around C.E. 30. This is not biblical nor logical.

      • Alan says:

        “The word became flesh.” Theologically speaking, Yeshua as the Word- incarnated has full divinity as one who has full divine attributes. ”

        After our discussion about God’s Word, do you still believe His Word is Him? If you do, then you have to go to the beach and worship the ocean and then worship the sun, and the seagulls and worship everything.

        • Brother Alan, i see your passion for the glory of God. His glory must not be shared with any creature or lifeless and speechless idols. I want always to lift up high the Hashem only.

          However i think that He is so generous that He does not feel jealous when He sees His son gets glory. Just like Isaiah 46:13 says “… Israel My glory.”
          Through His son Yeshua, the name of the God of Israel and His glory and His Works have been displayed throughout the world, even to this remote country called Korea.

          • Alan says:

            Gean,
            “Through His son Yeshua, the name of the God of Israel and His glory and His Works have been displayed throughout the world, even to this remote country called Korea.”

            The truth is that through His son Yeshua, His real firstborn son, the Jews, have had their name and blood dragged through the mud for 2000 years.

          • Brother Alan.
            I
            Repent
            And ask for forgiveness. Christians have been so ignorant. The N.T. records a few episodes that it was the disciples of Yeshua that blocked Jewish people from coming to Yeshua.

            Honestly i want to say “i feel more comfortable and safe in Jews and Judaism and i experienced fatherly love from Jews of Yerushalaim than any other Christian congregations.” I know because i used to live in the holy city for 13 months.

          • Alan says:

            So Brother Gean, repent and become Jewish or a Torah-observant Ben Noach! Just like you saw the love of the Jewish people in Israel you will see it even more from Hashem! It sounds like you will be happy if you go back to Israel and live and learn from Torah observant Jews! You can always go back to Korea later.

  6. Concerned Reader says:

    “Everything is His words. So you will also be forced into pantheism – that everything is identical with God.”

    Or into panentheism (where things exist within G-d sustained by godliness) Which many kabbalists actually teach is the case, (some teach this is true metaphorically, others teach it is true literally, hence the problem I have with the entire debate.)

    The way kabbalah has it is, If hashem were the sun, (Ein Sof) the cosmos would be like a messy mirror with bits of the diffuse light of the infinite shining through. (The “light” in the mirror is when we see evidence of providence in nature and providence through the acts of the Tzaddikim.)

    Moshiach (in this context) is described (even in Torah literature) as the panultimate righteous person second only to Moses.

    If providential acts of tzaddikim are like light shining through a dirty mirror, then acts of moshiach will be seen as the light or ” the words” through a polished mirror.

    And here is the problem I have. G-d’s words as you stated Alan are the “medium through which G-d works.” IE his puppet strings.

    So, while its true that you wouldn’t pray to the moshiach (the vessel through whom G-d will speak,) you would be compelled by scripture to obey that person, or cleave to that person and his example the way one cleaves to Tzaddikim, except that moshiach is the panultimate tzaddik.

    This is why Shabbatai Tzvi, Jacob Frank, Eva Frank, Rebbe Nachman, and the Rebbe of Lubavitch all got trapped in a situation where people idolize them, even when these people know the proper definitions of worship.

    The meaning of all these metaphors in simple terms is that Moshiach will be the best sock puppet who wont mess up like others have done.

    If the “words” existed before creation, and are the medium through which G-d acts, etc. Then the messiah claimant becomes the panultimate sock puppet of hashem through which the words work.

    He has titles like gate, door, word, second Adam, the name of hashem, etc. Attached as a metaphor that gets literalized by people, because metaphor or not, the messiah is described as that ideal agent.

    Look at Muhammad in Islam. The Muslims dont pray to him, dont consider him divine at all, profess the unity of G-d, abhor Shituf, but then they treat Muhammad as the ideal sock puppet to the extent that to question him is a worse heresy than questioning G-d. Islam becomes Idolatry without being formulated or framed as worship of another entity.

    In not praying to Muhammad, but viewing his words as panultimate, the Muslim idolizes him without knowledge or intention.

    The same happened to all the would be messiahs I listed above.

    • Alan says:

      CR,
      I am saying that His words are not Him. According to Genesis His words became everything. But His words are not Him. In Judaism, Moshiach is not perfect just like Moses was not perfect. If Moshiach can’t change the Torah. He can’t even belong to the Sanhedrin where the laws are debated and voted on. So the there is no comparison between the straight Torah and any other warped version of Torah. Do you get what I’m saying? If not please keep asking.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        I get what you are saying. What I’m saying is that what you mentioned has never prevented anyone (including Moses) from being idolized.

        You dont have to pray to something or consider it literally divine to idolize it.

        The folden calf was an attempt at creating a conduit to replace who? Moshe Rabbeinu.

        You are right that Moses wasnt perfect, neither were other Tzaddikim, that doesnt stop men from downplaying or white washing their faults and elevating them to the point of blurring lines.

        Everything I said above (about descriptions of moshiach) are metaphors that are found in second temple texts, midrashim, etc.

        • Alan says:

          CR,
          Your concerns are valid and based in reality. What would you do, if you could, so that people would never have the urge to idolize a kosher tzadik prophet like Moses, Moshiach, or any other kosher prophet? I guess your concern is only with a prophet not with a tzadik who is not a prophet?

          • Concerned Reader says:

            As I see it, I dont know the proper response, because even when these prophets and would be messiahs make it abundantly plain that they are not the focus, people make them the focus anyway.

            Jesus himself said, “why callest though me good, none is good but G-d.”

            Jesus himself told his disciples (after the alleged ressurection,) “do not hold on to me, for I have not ascended to my father.”

            Jesus himself said, “the father is greater than I.”

            In Therevada Buddhism, the Buddha tells his students”I am not divine do not worship me.” And yet, what heppens? Bhuddists make statues of him and meditate around Stupas that hold his remains.

            Jews know that they should not venerate the rabbis, and yet all the big guys have tombs that peole regularly visit, (but you cant fault them because its a biblical practice to visit tombs of the righteous.)

            One of the things that amazed me when I first started studying Judaism was how old the tradition of venerating the pious was.

            I was raised protestant, and we always thought Catholics were playing with idolatry when they would venerate pious saints.

            Imagine my surprise when I discovered that venerating pious people was the easiest and clearest link to draw between Judaism and Christianity. Both traditions do it without batting an eye lash.

            Its an issue I dont think there is a fix for. Scripture and tradition are full of metaphors that make the pious into near divine sock puppets. We just follow along without realizing it.

            The thing that stuns me the most is how the Christian Bible claims Jesus as the unique son of G-d, but then has the “anti Christ” tradition where they say

            “if anyone claims for their guy the things we say about Jesus, they are decieved heretics.”

            Thats why I dont think people’s claims of cognitive dissonance on the part of the students of Jesus hold any water.

            The students of Jesus themselves freely admitted and clearly undrrstood that “if anyone else claimed what Jesus claimed, it would be idolatry.” They knew that if Jesus was just some guy, they would be guilty.

          • Alan says:

            CR,
            You brought verses to show that Jesus didn’t want to be the focus. But what do you make of all the verses in which he does the opposite?

            Responsible Jewish leaders, teachers, prophets have to make it a very big priority not to make themselves the focus. And if they notice some of their students doing it anyway, they and the other students are responsible to help the misguided students get back on the right path. Jews have a very good track record of not making their leaders into idols. Hashem put in a lot of built-in checks and balances in the system that works pretty well but is not fool-proof (there will still be foolish people who will do what they want no matter what anybody says – and Hashem doesn’t take away their freewill to do so).

          • cr, you said :

            “(but you cant fault them because its a biblical practice to visit tombs of the righteous.)”

            any verses ?

          • Alan says:

            MHC,
            There are no verses in Tanakh that overtly state there was a mitzvah or even a custom to visit the graves of tzaddikim.

          • Alan says:

            However, there is one source in the Talmud that I can think of that says the custom existed since at least the time of Moses. There is much halachic debate on this topic of praying at the graves of tzaddikim. Some authorities say it’s ok as long as one does not pray to the dead. But everyone admits the practice is fraught with halachic issues because it allows people to get very close the edge of the cliff of forbidden worship.

          • Alan says:

            I think you said that with an Australian accent. You’re a-ok mate.

  7. Concerned Reader says:

    Carrying the bones of Joseph out of Egypt and laying him to rest in Israel also seems to be a clear allusion of extreme care for the patriarchs and that they wanted future generations to know where he was.

    I meant that its a tradition that we see, and as Alan said, there is debate about it.

  8. Alan says:

    Gean wants us to believe that God’s word = God in some way so that we can worship God’s word (=Jesus).

    The only “proof” he can contrive is that the verb BARA is not used anywhere in Tanakh in reference to God’s word. Gean’s logic is as follows: BARA means creating something from nothing and since BARA isn’t used to describe how the Torah was made (in Proverbs 8) in contrast to the rest of creation where BARA is used, it means that the Torah (God’s word) has always existed. Therefore, we can worship God’s word because it has always existed like God Himself and is therefore equivalent to God for the purpose of worship.

    Gean, first of all, you are admitting that the Torah is God’s word. So why don’t you worship the Torah? Would it be ok to worship the Torah? Did Jews ever worship the Torah? Did Moses worship the Torah? Did King David and King Solomon worship the Torah?

    But the most important thing to know, Gean, is that there really is no such thing as Hashem creating something from nothing. Because Hashem is infinite, there is nothing apart or separate from Him – He includes everything. The different Hebrew verbs that mean to make and to form – BARA, YATZAR, ASAH, HOLAL – are all METAPHORS meant for the HUMAN PERSPECTIVE only. From Hashem’s perspective nothing comes from nothing and everything is equally open and revealed – darkness to Him is as bright as light (Psalms 139:12 – Even the darkness is not too dark for you
    but the night shines as the day; the darkness is even as the light.)

    These different verbs are used to describe different levels of hiddenness of Hashem’s hand/presence in any given object/concept/phenomenon from our perspective. So if we say that something comes from nothing – it doesn’t literally mean from nothing because it comes from Hashem Who is the REAL SOMETHING. It’s AS IF it came from nothing because Hashem’s presence is extremely hidden in these things in the sense that THEY APPEAR TO RUN BY THEMSELVES. Besides, the essential meaning of the word BARA is “outside” – it means to bring what was inside to the outside. So by Hashem saying that He BARA (created) the heaven and the earth (Genesis 2:4), it means that what was “inside” Hashem’s mind, He brought it “outside”. But there really is nothing outside of Hashem – not even the Satan and idols – even though from the human perspective THEY APPEAR to be outside of Hashem.

    So, Gean, everything comes from Something. Nothing comes from nothing. Rocks don’t literally come from nothing, they come from Something too. The heavens don’t literally come from nothing. They also come from Something. It’s just that it’s much harder for us to connect to Hashem through studying the heavens and earth than it is for us to connect to Him through studying and fulfilling His word.

    Let’s use a human as an analogy. It is much harder for us to connect to someone’s personality and soul if the person lacks the ability to speak. Sure we can see his facial expressions and his actions but because he can’t speak, it is very hard for us to get to know him. But through his words, it’s much easier for us to relate to him. But still the person’s words ARE NOT HIM. They can express a very deep part of him, but they can’t express all of him. So much of the person is still hidden and is unable to be expressed in any words.

    A person is much more than his spoken or written words. We might love a person’s words, but it would be insane to try to carry on a relationship with his words. We only want a relationship with the person himself. Likewise, we can love God’s words, but it would be a sign of insanity to try to have a relationship with His words. We only want a relationship with the ONE Who spoke those words. As it is true of a human being, Hashem is also infinitely more than His words and can never fully express Himself in any words. We therefore need something else, something even greater than words, to take our relationship with Hashem and with our fellow humans to the next level.

    Everything comes from Hashem – even His words. But let’s have a mutual relationship with Hashem and not with His words. To have a worshipful relationship with anything besides Hashem Himself is a sign of insanity.

    • Alan says:

      I wrote:
      “As it is true of a human being, Hashem is also infinitely more than His words and can never fully express Himself in any words.”

      Am I putting limits on Hashem? I wrote that Hashem is unable to fully express Himself in any words. The answer depends on who Hashem is speaking to. If He’s directing His words to Himself (perhaps this means He’s thinking to Himself), then He can certainly express all of Himself in these kinds of words. But if He is directing His words to people or any other being other than Himself, then it is impossible for a finite creature to know and understand all of Hashem. So a word from Hashem that is meant for a finite creature will necessarily be received in a finite way. If we knew all of Hashem we would be Him (a great rabbi once said something to this effect). So on the one hand, Hashem can do anything because He is unlimited. On the other hand, He is unable to reveal all of Himself to finite creatures not because of a limitation in the Transmitter but because of a limitation in the receivers. Perhaps this is a decent explanation for why God cannot become a man – a man that people can see and hear. Everything we can perceive is at most an expression of the Infinite but we can never perceive the Infinite Himself because we are finite.

  9. Brother Alan, i appreciate your thoughtful and intellectual articles. If i gave you an impression that i worship Yeshua rather than God, or Word rather than Hashem Himself, sorry that is not what i meant.

    1. I dont bow down to the Bible nor work for the ink but bow down Hashem whose glory and power and amazing works revealed in the Word and i work for Hashem who gave the job description through the Word.

    2. If the word of God become everything, why Isaiah 55:10~11 do not say like this; “As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it but become water, earth, and bud ans seed… So is my word that goes out from my mouth and become everything without returning to me. ”

    3. All you said about Hashem are words. Your concept of God is made of words. You pray to God through words. Is God wind? Picture? Man? Force? Visible star? Fire? Or mountain? No. I believe that as soon as you believe and meditate on all about Hashem, even in your quiet time of worshipping Hashem, you meet Him through the small voice or words from Him. The Nature SPEAKS the glory of Hashem, our experience SPEAKS to hear the voice of Hashem. When i hear His voice, i cannot help worshipping Hashem. Even in His silence, His silence speaks message.

    • Alan says:

      Gean,
      You told me that you worship both together. You worship the Father AND the Son TOGETHER.

      • Yes but 98% Father. Even in time of worshipping Son, I worship Father who gave His Son for me. I worship Father, then He receives it and He shows me He often shares the glory with His Son = Israel and Yeshua.

        • Alan says:

          Gean,
          You really didn’t understand anything I wrote. I’m sorry I can’t do better. The only thing I can suggest is if you read what I wrote again and if you have any question please ask me.

        • Alan says:

          Gean,

          “He often shares the glory with His Son = Israel and Yeshua.”

          Then what is wrong with you worshiping any Jew or the entire Jewish people?
          If you think you are Israel since the “brit chadashah” what is wrong with you worshiping yourself?

          Isaiah 6:3 –
          And one called unto another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory.”

          The whole earth is full of His glory – He gave His glory to the entire earth. What is wrong with worshiping the earth?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            If an object is worthy of your worship because it shares God’s “glory” then there are plenty of things that have God’s glory and so you must also worship them.

            If an object is worthy of your worship because it it “God’s word” then there are plenty of things that have God’s word and so you must worship them too; for example, a Torah scroll, a NT (according to you), Avraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, and all the prophets, your computer screen when you look at God’s words to name a few.

          • Alan, this debate is won by you and i’m lost. I will worship God only who is Abba Shelanu Adonai Echad. This will be the last question because we need to participate in another great articles of Rabbi.

            You said, “what is wrong with you worshiping any Jew or the entire Jewish people?”
            I do because God said So! Genesis 27:29 “Nations shall SERVE you and kingdoms shall bow down to you; you shall be a master over your brothers, and your mother’s sons shall bow down to you. Those who curse you shall be cursed, and those who bless you shall be blessed.” (www.chabad.org) In this verse, SERVE is what? ABAD! The same word which is used in Deuteronomy 11:16 “Beware, lest your heart be misled, and you turn away and WORSHIP strange gods and prostrate yourselves before them.”

            Actually, i really worshiped (Abbadti: Worked, loved, and served) Jews when i was in Israel. When i was in LA, i wanted to serve (worship) the Jews not because they are greater than gentiles but because God said so and becasue Yeshua was from the Jews, and Yeshua said to the gentile Samaritan woman “salvation comes from the Jews” (John 4:22)

          • Alan says:

            Gean, DON’T worship the Jews!
            There is no separate word in Hebrew for “to worship”. There’s just one word la’avod (to work or to serve). Don’t work for and serve (help) the Jews like you do for Hashem! Worship only Hashem and help the Jews. Do you understand what I’m saying?

            Which debate? We were having a few discussions at the same time:

            1. Does God’s word have full divinity so that we should worship His word?
            2. Is teshuvah enough for Hashem to forgive us or do we need blood on top of the teshuvah?
            3. Does faith alone make one a tzadik or does one also need to keep the laws (one of the laws is to have faith)?

          • Alan says:

            Gean, DON’T worship the Jews!
            There is no separate word in Hebrew for “to worship”. There’s just one word la’avod (to work or to serve). Don’t work for and serve (help) the Jews like you do for Hashem! Worship only Hashem and help the Jews.

            We were having a few discussions at the same time. Where are we with them?

            1. Does God’s word have full divinity so that we should worship His word?
            2. Is teshuvah enough for Hashem to forgive us or do we need blood on top of the teshuvah?
            3. Does faith alone make one a tzadik or does one also need to keep the laws (one of the laws is to have faith)?

          • Brother Alan! Thank you for calling me to this discussion (not debate as i said wrongly) again.

            Ok. We will keep exploring those three questions. Beforehand, please can you find the biblical history or narratives that differentiate Laavod le Hashem from Laavod le anashim?

          • Alan says:

            Gean,

            There are hundreds of examples in Tanakh. I’ve picked out a few –

            Deut. 6 –

            יג אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ תִּירָא, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹד; וּבִשְׁמוֹ, תִּשָּׁבֵעַ. 13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; and Him shalt thou SERVE, and by His name shalt thou swear.

            Deut. 34 –

            ה וַיָּמָת שָׁם מֹשֶׁה עֶבֶד-יְהוָה, בְּאֶרֶץ מוֹאָב–עַל-פִּי יְהוָה. 5 So Moses, a SERVANT (EVED) of the LORD, died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

            Psalm 100 –

            ב עִבְדוּ אֶת-יְהוָה בְּשִׂמְחָה; בֹּאוּ לְפָנָיו, בִּרְנָנָה. 2 Serve the LORD with joy; come before His presence with singing.

            Genesis 25 –

            כג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה לָהּ, שְׁנֵי גֹיִים בְּבִטְנֵךְ, וּשְׁנֵי לְאֻמִּים, מִמֵּעַיִךְ יִפָּרֵדוּ; וּלְאֹם מִלְאֹם יֶאֱמָץ, וְרַב יַעֲבֹד צָעִיר. 23 And the LORD said unto her: Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall SERVE (ya’avod) the younger.

            Genesis 29 –

            יח וַיֶּאֱהַב יַעֲקֹב, אֶת-רָחֵל; וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶעֱבָדְךָ שֶׁבַע שָׁנִים, בְּרָחֵל בִּתְּךָ, הַקְּטַנָּה. 18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and he said: ‘I will SERVE thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.’

          • Alan says:

            One more –

            Deut. 11 –

            יג וְהָיָה, אִם-שָׁמֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶל-מִצְו‍ֹתַי, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, הַיּוֹם–לְאַהֲבָה אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, וּלְעָבְדוֹ, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם, וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. 13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and TO SERVE Him (L’AVDO) with all your heart and with all your soul.

        • Alan says:

          “Yes but 98% Father. ”

          Does it say in Tanakh or NT that worshiping the son 2% of the time is kosher? What if a person wants to do more than 2%? Is it permitted to do 5% or 10%? What if someone wants to do 50%?

    • robster2016 says:

      “When i hear His voice, i cannot help worshipping Hashem. ”

      do you worship his voice?

      • Can any human beings worship Hashem without hearing His voice?
        Then the worship is mere religious ritual without sincere and intimate relationship with HIM. That is why Yeshua said “God is looking for those who worship in spirit and truth.”

        • robster2016 says:

          “Can any human beings worship Hashem without hearing His voice?”
          yeah, you can. do you worship sounds which come from god ?

          • I mean we can only worship God because He first revealed Himself through His word (the written word and spiritual voice). Who ever worshipped God before God revealed Himself?

            When Yeshua said “i am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me” He meant the word of God. (The gospel of John is full of Logos theology) The God of Israel is a God who speaks to and communicates with mankind. Isn’t He?

          • Dina says:

            God communicates His teachings through the Torah, but we do not worship the physical scroll. We do not pray to the Torah, nor pray to God in the name of the Torah. Do you hear how ridiculous this sounds? The words are only a message from God, the messenger. Yes, we obey the message. But we worship the messenger, not the message.

          • Sister Dina, so do I! I do not worship the physical scroll, because it is idolatry. I do not pray to the Torah nor pray to God in the name of the Torah. Both Jews and Christians pray according to the Torah, by the instruction and will of God revealed in the Torah. John 16:26 “In that day you will ask (John chose the word ‘ask’ not ‘pray’) in my name . I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father Himself loves you because you have loved me (Yeshua- Incarnated word of God) and have believed that I came from God.

            I came from the Father and entered the 🌎 world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father” (John 16:26-28) As Isaiah 55:11, the word of the Lord comes down from heaven and fulfill the will of God on earth and return with mission done.

            Please don’t misunderstand the Christian practice of praying in the name of Yeshua. Yeshua did not teach to end pray with “in Jesus name Amen” Christians do that from ignorance of John’ s intention. Just like children ask to their Father with various forms of speech, and Father just smiles and answers, Hashem does the same, I believe.

          • Dina says:

            If Jesus is not your intermediary, your access to God (as in “I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me”) then what do you need Jesus for?

            Here you are saying you do not pray to God through Jesus. We have shown that you do not need Jesus’s death to atone for your sins. So?

        • robster2016 says:

          you said

          “Also the word of our God is eternal too in Isaiah 40:8?”

          so when you hear your god, do you worship the sounds your god makes?

        • robster2016 says:

          so imagine you heard god speak to moses . i am trying to understand if you would worship the voice of your god or god or the transcription of the communication.

          • I mean I worship God through HIS word (or Tanach- written revelation or inner spiritual voice- Rhema in Greek as described in Psalm 19:3~4)
            Moses and Israelites were able to worship God because God revealed Himself first through His word!

          • robster2016 says:

            “Moses and Israelites were able to worship God because God revealed Himself first through His word!”

            god revealed himself. he spoke. where do you get “through his word” from? what does “through” even mean? did moses worship gods speech/communication/words?

          • Did God speak His fire? Did God speak His earthquake? God revealed Himself through Words. Is Torah image? Beast? Electricity? Torah is the word of God.

          • robster2016 says:

            “I mean I worship God through HIS word”

            . god speaks 10 instructions. do you worship through 10 instructions by using the instructions as intermediary or do you worship god by doing his instructions?

          • I worship God by doing His instructive words. And are you able to worship work לעבוד faithfully and live out His will specifically in your life without Torah?

  10. Dina says:

    Gean says we need Jesus as a mediator between God and man; that’s why he prays to Jesus. Gean must not be aware of this verse: “God is close to all who call to Him, to all who call to Him sincerely.”

    He must not be aware of the many instances in Tanach wherein people prayed directly to God and God heard their prayers: “Now it came to pass in those many days that the king of Egypt died, and the children of Israel sighed from the labor, and they cried out, and their cry ascended to God from the labor. God heard their cry, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob” (Exodus 2:23-24).

    “And Isaac prayed to the Lord opposite his wife because she was barren, and the Lord accepted his prayer, and Rebecca his wife conceived” (Genesis 25:21).

    Lo and behold! God answers prayers without a mediator! How do you like that?

    Gean, you’re toast. Time to admit it and move on.

    • Alan says:

      toast – ‎토스트 (toseuteu)

      Dina,
      A few weeks ago, Gean vowed to only pray to the Father from now on.

      • Dina says:

        No kidding! Kudos to you, Gean, and in that case I retract my words in this comment.

        Alan, can you link that comment? I want to see this with my own eyes!

          • Dina says:

            Alan, Gean isn’t saying anything different to what he has been saying before. He said he will worship God only. He has been saying that since we know him. He did not say that he wouldn’t pray to Jesus or to God in the name of Jesus. He still believes that Jesus is the mediator between God and man and that he cannot approach God except through the medium of Jesus. As he just wrote in a comment on this page, when Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me,” Jesus meant no one comes to the Father but through the word of God–and he, Jesus, is the word of God.

            So I retract my kudos to Gean and stand by my original statement that he’s toast, time to give up the fight. I cited a lot of sources showing that God can and does answer prayers without mediation. If Gean can show clear verses–as clear as the ones I cited–that the only way to access God is through His word in the person of Jesus (I can’t believe I’m writing this nonsensical drivel–how can a person be a word?), then we’ll have something to talk about!

          • Alan says:

            Dina,
            Ok, I probably misunderstood him.

    • Sister Dina, the verse sounds likeJames 4:8 ( Come near to God and He will come near to you). I know the sincere repentant prayer brings forgiveness. Amen. Manytimes Christians do that without ever bringing the bloody cross into their mind.

      But think about it! The crucifixion is not prerequisite to repentance; rather, vindication of divine forgiveness in front of the Satan who accuses both sinners and God. Without crucifixion, God’ forgiveness to the repentant sinners lacks of His justice. It makes God unfaithful to keep His promise of judgement and curse in Torah.

      Let me ask you sister. In the Numbers 25, why God commanded Moses to kill all the leaders of the people and to expose them in broad daylight instead of making them repent sincerely? Why the ATONEMENT for the Israelites was made when Eleazar KILLED both the Israelite and the Medianite woman?

    • The accident in Numbers 25, How was Moses able to tell the Israelites the way of extinguishing the wrath of God? Because he heard the Word- the instruction. Yeshua said, “Salvation comes from the Jews” Why? because they have been entrusted with the Word of God to the mankind as Pharisee Paul said in Romans. (and i admit Paul is not your ancestor. Forgive me sister)

  11. Dina says:

    Gean, a person can’t be the Torah. So no, Jesus is not the Torah.

    Can you find support for this ridiculous notion anywhere in Tanach?

    For you have been shown in order to know, that the Lord, He is the God, there is none beside him (Deuteronomy 35:4).

    I am the Lord, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images (Isaiah 42:8).

    I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isaiah 43:11).

    So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, “I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). (Jesus had the gall to use the words “I am the first and the last” about himself.)

    I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God: I will strengthen you although you have not known Me (Isaiah 45:5).

    And I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt, and gods besides Me you should not know, and there is no savior but Me (Hosea 13:4).

    • Eleazar says:

      But Dina, Christians believe those verses were Jesus talking about himself. Those verses are what necessitated the trinity doctrine.Unless Jesus was God he could not be the savior, since there is no savior but God. So they had to make Jesus into God somehow and make him the self-describing author of those texts.

    • Amen!
      That is why i believe, sister, his name was Yeshua, not Moshiah.
      Yeshua is the incarnated word of God which is the means of God’s SALVATION.
      And God ALONE is the SAVIOR- MOSHIAH.
      Again, in JOhn’s Gospel, Yeshua said, “Salvation comes from the Jews.” Why?
      Because they have been entrusted with the Word of God to the mankind as Pharisee Paul said in Romans 3:1-2.

      • RT says:

        Where is The messiah G-d as per the Tanakh? Nowhere, actually, it says clearly that the messiah IS NOT G-d.

        Ezekiel 34:
        And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.

        HaShem is not David, HaShem is G-d, while David (The messiah) is prince among them.

        Also, as per Ezekiel 45, the messiah is not sinless, as he brings sin sacrifice for Himself:

        And on that day the prince (Messiah) shall prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.

      • robster2016 says:

        “Yeshua is the incarnated word of God which is the means of God’s SALVATION.
        And God ALONE is the SAVIOR- MOSHIAH.”

        god said “let there be light” is the sun incarnated word of god?
        did god say “let there be yeshua ” and his words became yeshua?
        god said he does not need any means, he hears and sees and has power to reply without the need of jesus. is gods power more closer to him (its his essence) or an incarnation which is limited and can be destroyed?

        • RT says:

          Robster, for you to understand John’s concept, you have to understand Greek Philosophy. Philo, an Hellenized Jew, and as such mixed Judaism and Greek Philosophy. In Genesis 1, we read “V’yamar Elohim” (וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים ) And said Elohim…

          Why did G-d need to say anything? Why did G-d have to say anything? He could, in theory, have created everything without a word. So, that brought a lot of questions, in a philosophical point of view. The logos, as per Philo, was an “intermediary beings necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world. The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo “the first-born of God”

          So, when you say “did god say “let there be yeshua ”, it makes no sense. Chrisitians understand Genesis as “God said let there be light = the word of G-d (AKA D’var/Logos/Jesus) created the light”.

          Here are a few ways of seeing John 1:

          In the beginning was the logos/D’var, and the logos/D’var was with God, and the Word was God.

          In the beginning was (“V’yamar Elohim” (וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים )/logos/D’var/Jesus), and the Words that G-d spoke was with God, and the words that came out of the mouth of G-d (intermediary beings necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world) was God.

          He was with God in the beginning.

          Through that intermediary being all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In that intermediary being was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

          That logo (intermediary being) became a human and lived among us. And guess who it was? Yeshua

          This whole thing makes very little sense, but only shows that John understood that Hebrew Bible through the lenses of Greek Philosophy…

        • robster2016 says:

          quote :
          So, when you say “did god say “let there be yeshua ”, it makes no sense. Chrisitians understand Genesis as “God said let there be light = the word of G-d (AKA D’var/Logos/Jesus) created the light”.

          i know what christians say, but look at what gean says :

          gean said :
          Yeshua is the incarnated word of God which is the means of God’s SALVATION.

          quote :
          Please don’t misunderstand the Christian practice of praying in the name of Yeshua. Yeshua did not teach to end pray with “in Jesus name Amen” Christians do that from ignorance of John’ s intention.

          he is using a separate being and worshiping his god through that being or is he saying it is same being existing as different things? i don’t know what to make of what he is saying.

      • Dina says:

        Gean, in Hebrew the words “mashiach” and “moshiah” are completely unrelated although they sound similar. For example in English the words “sun” and “son” are unrelated. So are the words “goon” and “gone” or “slow” and “snow.”

        The word “mashiach” comes from the root “mashach” and means “anointed one.”

        The word “moshiah” comes from root “yasha” or “hasha” (not sure which), which means save or redeem.

        Furthermore, the word of God (i.e. His commands and teachings) is expressed in the Torah. The Torah can’t be incarnated in a person. Jesus is not the Torah.

        Finally, I’m glad you admitted that Paul is not my ancestor. Will you now admit that the word salvation is never used in the Hebrew Bible to denote salvation from sin? Will you admit that the concept of God saving any individual from sin is contrary to the teachings of the Bible (as expressed in Deuteronomy 30 and Ezekiel 18 and 33)?

  12. Dina says:

    Gean, show me where the Torah teaches the notion that a man needs God’s salvation from his own sin. Come on! If the Torah taught such a thing, you would have shown me by now. You can save yourself from your own sin by doing teshuva.

    Please read Deuteronomy 30 and Ezekiel 18 and 33 closely.

    Christians argue that Jews already are saved because of the covenant, so Christians need Jesus to save them from sin because they are not part of that covenant.

    Stuff and nonsense! Our covenant with God contains no promises of salvation from sin. This concept is completely foreign to the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures.

    God has promised us that he will one day save us from our enemies. That’s a little bit of a different story, do you hear what I’m saying?

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