Rosh Hashana, the first day of the seventh month, is known as “Yom HaDin” – “The Day of Judgment”. We have received that on this day God sits on the throne of judgment and judges all the inhabitants of the earth.
One would expect that the prayers of this day would emphasize a plea for mercy in this judgment. After all, so much depends on this judgment and what else can we rely on but upon God’s mercy? Yet, surprisingly, not only do the prayers of Rosh Hashana not emphasize a request for mercy, the concept of a plea for mercy is almost completely absent from the prayers that we pray on this day. Instead the emphasis is on our desire to see the kingdom of God established here on earth. Throughout the machzor (the traditional
prayer book) we find the entreaty for God to establish His kingdom on earth
repeated again and again.
There is no question that our desire to see God’s kingdom established is an important part of our relationship with God, but why is it emphasized on this day? And why do we not appeal to God’s mercy on this day?
In our search for an answer to these questions we will first ask another question; What is the nature of the judgment that takes place on Rosh Hashana and how does it differ from the judgment that takes place after death, or on the great Day of Judgment (Isaiah 66:16, Joel 4:2)?
Rabbi Chaim Freidlander explains that the judgment of Rosh Hashana differs from the judgment that takes place after death. The judgment that takes place after death would be compared to a final score-card, where God judges every deed, both good and bad (Ecclesiastes 12:14). It is a judgment of the past. The judgment of Rosh Hashana on the other hand is a judgment of the future. This judgment could be compared to a CEO reviewing the various departments of his company to see how they contribute to the overall performance of the company. God is judging each one of us and considering our place in His future plan for the world. The question that God asks about each of us is; what role could this particular individual play in My plan for the world?
What is God’s plan for the world? The Scriptures teach that God’s ultimate plan is that His kingdom be established here on earth openly and unequivocally (Deuteronomy 32:39, Zechariah 14:9). This is God’s plan and God is moving all of history towards this ultimate goal.
As God’s children, we identify with God’s plan. Our deepest yearning is that our Father’s purpose be accomplished as He desires.
The entire purpose of this judgment is for us. So that we should bring our lives into focus and realign ourselves with our true inner yearning, as Jews and as God’s children. Putting in requests for my own self as an individual would not be appropriate on a day where the focus of God is on His purpose. On the day of Rosh Hashana we are called upon to align ourselves with God’s judgment, with His purpose here on earth. On this day we renew our
commitment as God’s children to establishing God’s kingdom here on earth; this
is our true desire and we move our focus away from our own personal desires.
To the degree that we are capable of sincerely identifying with God’s plan, and removing the distractions of our personal wishes, to that same degree will we merit a favorable judgment.
As God’s children, we want Him to see in our hearts, to hear in our prayers and in the blast of our shofar; one thing and one thing only – the yearning and the longing for God’s kingdom to be established here on earth to the eyes of all flesh.
May it happen speedily in our days.
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Yisroel C. Blumenthal
Yom Hadin~ .thanks Rabbi~
Amen Amen !! May it happen speedily in our days!!
I was just curious if there is any notion in Judaism that any Messianic figure pre- visits Israel and prepare hearts of people and fight against enemy (both spiritual and physical) before He comes to be fully inaugurate? Just like king David was anointed as king but had to serve and fight for Shaul and Israelites before establishing his kigdom in Jerusalem?
Gean Guk Jeon Elijah the prophet – Malachi 4:23,24 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
O! Elijah the prophet! thanks. By the way, the NT records that he came and preached the repentance to be prepared for the kingdom. Does Judaism teach that the prophet Elijah has not come yet since Malachi prophesied?
On Yom Hadin, why do we yearn for the kingdom to be established instead of pleading for mercy?
I have pondered this question and came across the gospel of John, and i noticed Yeshua emphasized about JUDGMENT during the passover season: JOhn 3:17-18, John 12:30, 47, 48.
Interestingly enough, while the Jews seemed to expect the coming Davidic kingdom thus welcomed the coming Messiah, shouting “Baruk haba veshem adonai” in John 12:13, Yeshua turned the day of celebration into the day of judgment; “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (Jn12:31).
What do you think “draw all men unto me” mean? I think it means “draw all men unto the word of God to obey.” Yeshua might have meant that since i will defeat the power of condemnation of the enemy on the cross, God’s people could return to their God freely and boldy.
I guess what Yeshua has said and done in the passover has something to do with realigning the hearts of the covenant people before the Kingdom comes. So, we yearn for the coming kingdom on Yom Hadin because the judgment against the prince of this world has been executed already by Yeshua?
Yeshua also seems to postpone the judgment day onto the last day of the Lord, and the ultimate judge is not himself but the word of God (Jn 12:48).
Gean Guk Jeon Malachi tells us what Elijah will accomplish – since no one accomplished that yet – we can know that he has not yet come. 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
My Pharisee friend! What did you mean when you added “CAN”? – we CAN know that..
You sound like Yeshua! Look, he added “If you will receive it,” – IF YOU WILL RECEIVE IT, this is Elias who was for to come… (Matthew 11:14)
Apparently John the Baptist himself could not even receive it.
John 1:19-21 ( Aramaic Bible in plain English)
“19 And this is the testimony of Yohannan when the Judaeans sent Levites and priests to him from Jerusalem in order to ask him: “Who are you?” 20And he confessed and did not deny and confessed: “I am not The Messiah.” 21And they asked him again, “What, therefore? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “No.” “Are you a Prophet?”, and he said “No.”
Maybe Jesus should filled John in on who he was? More likely, Jesus was responding to a new question that deserved to be answered.To say John was Elijah was the only answer he could give. Of course, by then John was dead and gone.
“What do you think “draw all men unto me” mean? I think it means “draw all men unto the word of God to obey.”
Which is why I have trouble taking what you say seriously.
BTW, John flatly denied being Elijah…or the prophet who was to precede Moschiac.
Brother Eleazar, the Gospel of John always portrays Yeshua as the incarnated word of God from epilogue to the end of the book. You made a good argument! John flatly denied being Elijah. Interestingly, his public denial is recorded only in JOhn’s Gospel; “And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.” (Jn 1:21) Isn’t it contradictory to what Yeshua has identified him?
Remember, this is the John’s gospel; the logos theology is imbued throughout the book.
In response, JOhn the baptist said, “I am the VOICE of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.”
JOhn is not the physically incarnated Elijah, but the prophetic voice which was incarnated in John’s ministry! That is why Luke described his identity in this way: ” And he shall go before him IN THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIAS, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” (Luke 1:17)
This is mind blowing.
“JOhn is not the physically incarnated Elijah, but the prophetic voice which was incarnated in John’s ministry!”
Can you imagine how Christians would react if we made these sorts of preposterous arguments?
Gean, give me one good reason that we should accept your notion that Elijah himself will not appear, but his prophetic voice incarnated in some random prophet. Whatever the heck that means.
Gean, Malachi tells us what Elijah will accomplish before “the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.” Do you know what that is? Has any prophet accomplished this magnificent undertaking?
Sister Dina, then do we have to believe that Elijah will appear literally? Then, the king David will have to appear also; “And I shall put up over them one shepherd and he will shepherd them, namely My servant David; he will shepherd them, and he will be for them as a shepherd.” (Ezekiel 34:23)
“Whatever the heck…” this makes me smile. thanks. Let me share what the heck i think.^^ I think i know what Elijah will accomplish, Dina.
Who are the fathers and children?
Fathers are the Jews (Judaism, Moses, John the Baptist, Law, O.T. Israel, etc), represented by Elijah who heard the voice of God at Mt. Horeb as Moses did.
Children are the Messianic gentiles (Chrisitianity, Yeshua, Gospel, N.T. church, etc), represented by Elisha whose name bears yeshua (salvation).
We know that Elijah was first and the Elisha was the second.
Elisha called Elijah “my father, my father,” then, Elisha and his sons (disciples) could be the sons of the father Elijah.
And the disciples of Elisha worshipped (bowed down) to Elisha in a naive way just like twelve disciples do to Yeshua (2 KIngs 2:15). O BTW, Elisha was with the twelfth yoke of oxen when he was called. Probably, what he was doing in the field might have been compared with the life of Pharisee Paul who furthered the Messianity (Acts 26:14).
As Elijah opened the door for the next runner Elisha, John the Baptist ushered in Yeshua. As Elijah left and Elisha took it over, the first born son of God the Jews have been dispersed, the Christians took it over.
The image of union of the hearts of fathers and chilren seem to be embodied in the story of John 3:22-30. Fathers are like the Jewish disciples of the forerunner, and the children are like the disciples of Yeshua. That is why, I believe, the same author of the gospel mentioned about FATHERS AND CHILDREN in the first epistle of John 2:12-14.
“I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord falls on the history, the heart of Judaism as father and the heart of Christianity as child will be united. The Jews and gentiles will be ONE NEW MAN in the Jewish Messiah, and the united heart of Jews and Christians will be as strong as the heart of Young Men in 1 John 2:13.
In the last days, the scene of great revival of humanity will be seen when you start saying in your heart, “Who begot these for me, seeing that I am bereaved and solitary, exiled and rejected, and who raised these? Behold I was left alone; these-[from] where are they?” (Isaiah 49:21) Thanks.
How do you know which parts of the Bible to take literally and which parts to take figuratively and why do think your interpretation is authoritative? Why do you think you know better than the target audience of the Bible what the Bible means?
This conversation is starting to take on a surreal, Kavi-like feeling.
“Children are the Messianic gentiles ”
Really, this is Beautiful! Scriptures can mean anything! No, Children mean the inward childish voice waiting for Santa to appear.
This has become ridiculous!
Dina, is this really all that crazy to believe? Let me explain. NOBODY ON EARTH knows what Elijah actually looks lke. He was taken up long long ago.
Rabbinic tradition identifies Elijah as an angel (Sandalohon,) and even says “pinchas was Elijah” ie its like a parable teaching we will recognize Elijah by what this person says and by what he.does, not by seeing a guy drop out of the sky with miraculous pomp and Circumstance.
Even when talking about the messiah himself, the rabbis say “he himself wont be aware that he is the messiah until he is called to the role.”
(Much like Moses himself said toHashem “you have the wrong man.” Couldnt Elijah be the same?
How often does Jewish tradition have folks “meeting Elijah” but actually they are not sure who they are meeting at 1st?
Also, in fairness to the author of John, whenever the Sadducees and Pharisees ask John a direct question, he does not answer it.
Early they ask him “Baptize us” and John says “who has warned you to flee the wrath to cone?”
The author of John is consistent in his horrendous treatment of Pharisees. I dont think John the Baptist’s “I am not” can be trusted as an actual no, but as a rhetorical no (in the mind of the author of the gospel.)
John’s gospel always pottrays “the Jews” as blnd, and as incapable of seeing what is allegedly right in front of them.”
In that vein, the gospel author does believe that John is Elijah, it is only the deteactors of “the truth” who recieve the no answer from the baptist.
Its awful, and mean spirited, but the intent of the author seems to be that “those with eyes to see” know that John is Elijah.
Con, yes it is crazy to believe that, and your comment here proves my point:
The PERSON of the messiah and Elijah isn’t what identifies them; the MESSAGE and MISSION identify them.
We won’t need to use bizarre “voice incarnation” arguments because we will know Elijah by his successful ACTIONS and the messiah by his successful ACTIONS.
John the Baptist did not accomplish what Malachi said Elijah would accomplish; therefore Gean has to resort to non-Biblical, non-authoritative, spun-out-of-thin-air arguments to justify his continued belief.
His arguments are getting wilder by the minute.
Dina, think about it. What is a “voice incarnation?” Its just a dude speaking.lol Yes, Gean is couching what he says in Christian theological gibberish, but what does Elijah do? He preaches repentance. What did the baptist do? He preached repentance, and had priestly lineage.
I agree that his argument doesn’t work and I know what messiah and Elijah’s roles are, but Gean is hardly the only one who has couched Elijah in a maze of crazy metaphor that is ridiculous. Expecting him not to say those things is expecting him not to talk like a Christian,
Do you believe Elijah became an angel whose size would fill 1/4 of the heavens?
Dina. what I mean is this. I’ve heard all kinds of crazy, illogical, foolish, nonsense from Christians. I have heard the same illogical things when people talk about the Aggadic sources.
The ONLY difference is that the Jewish community by and large knows the aggadah cannot be literal and is only metaphor. Christians hear Aggadic explanations and say “aaaah! Prophecy, inspiration, blah blah.
For the Christians like Gean, it turns out that John the Baptist is some kind of G-d empowered Elijah sock puppet who has been waiting in heaven to “come down.”
Let me tell you a story.
When I was young, (and a religious Christian,) I read a book of Jewish folk tales. In these folk tales was all the same kind of thing someone would find in Christian sources. I also read some of the prayers where angels appeared to be invoked. As a Christian (and not knowing how Jews understand Aggadah) I thought “wow! Why exactly do our communities fight when there is so much that looks verbatim one source to the next.?”
Keep in mind I was a kid, I hadn’t learned about how your religion reads its own books yet. Christians have crazy ideas (or ideas that sound foreign and nuts to you,) because they have to interpret the Bible outside in, instead of inside out. They are not Jewish, they do not carry your interpretive lenses. or your assumptions about how Torah works.
To expect differently from them is a tall order. Their religion is about the Nazarene. He is their whole reason for believing in your books at all. Trying to get them to have what from your perspective would be a cogent point is not going to happen often.
Christians always say “John the Baptist was in the spirit and power of Elijah” IE in their view he fits a typical Christian typology cloud shape blah blah of Elijah, and so for them, that’s good enough.
I’m basically saying I don’t know why you are surprised or shocked so much when you hear these Christian arguments. Why? This is their usual fare.
If there is a cloud shape, then bingo, it fits Christian prophecy.
Did you hear about the Yahoo who said the world would end last week? The next day he literally tweeted “nevermind.” lol I mean really.
Well, that’s really depressing. Why bother then? Please excuse me while I crawl into bed and pull the covers over my head.
It is depressing, and you guys do great work. I’m not trying to get you down, its just not going to work saying “how foolish” about their viewpoint.
Gean doesn’t see what he’s doing. It makes sense to him.
Not very complicated:
Malachi: Before Messiah comes, Elijah the prophet will prepare the way… father’s hearts turn to sons and sons hearts turn to fathers.
John: This is the very last hour.( said that almost 2000 years ago)
Paul: In the last days children will hate their parents.
Jesus: I have come to turn family members against each other.
Paul: In the last days children will hate their parents.
Jesus: I have come to turn family members against each other.
The rabbis tgemselves say, In a generation that is righteous he comes on the clouds. In one that is wicked, lowly and upon a donkey.
Many folks in Jesus’ time period thought they lived in wicked times. The dead sea sectarians, all the failed messiahs, Roman Occupation, the Sadducee Pharisee sectarian schism, etc.
If you live in that kind of climate, its not surprising that Jesus and Paul saw themselves as living in days similar to the days of Noah where a man is against his neighbor while a najority say “peace and security.”
If you look at some early Christian commentaries, (like the Clementine homilies) pagan deteactors would ask “doesn’t your master Jesus contradict himself when he says on one hand, “the meek will inheret the earth,” and “he who lives by the sword shall die by it,” and then on the other hand “I come to turn father against child etc. I come to bring a sword?”
The answer given by the commentaries to paraphrase is, “to the righteous remnant who hear Jesus’ teaching and carry it out, the master speaks clearly of peace and security, but only to them that hear it.
For the scoffer and to the violent he speaks (with the sword of his mouth) in parables, and warns the wicked of their fate. Ie the parable of the sheep and the goats, also the parable of the Minas.
(This whole commentary and these parables of Jesus evicerate the idea of “faith alone.”)
If a Christian actually tries to live by the ethical principles of non violence and the golden rule, if one doesn’t push their faith on those who dont want it, and doesn’t try to force a Christian form of political power, then it can be a pretty tame faith system.
When was the last time you felt threatened by a group like the Amish community who keep to themselves?
I agree that on the whole Christians end up being huge religious hypocrites who seek power, control, and seek to force their beliefs, and who are militant, but there are a lot of Jesus’ ethical principles that such people are forced to blatantly ignore in order to carry out that agenda.
Con, that is only half true. You can find support for a more militant Christianity in the NT since it’s so full of contradictions. The “tame” Christians ignore the militant aspects and vice versa.
Dina, that is true of every religious text and tradition on the face of this planet. Everyone has to choose the best interpretation they can, and I dont deny militant Christianity, or militant aspects of other faiths, my point is those Christians have to ignore explicit texts in favor of texts that require more interpretation.
For example, the New Testament does not mention burning or torturing of heretics by believers in this life (as a sanctioned behavior) anywhere in its pages. It explicitly says how a believer is to handle the situation of an unfaithful city. Some Christians just ignore that, especially theicracies.
Eleazar makes a make a plain point. Cr predictably says “But the rabbis…blah blah blah” that does not accurately reflect the point. Its getting painfully dull.
Eleazer, what is your problem? You made an overly simplistic statement. Thats just a fact sir.
I just told you what “my problem ” is. Someone posts a simple point that illustrates a common error in the Christian ( That is, Christianity as it is commonly understood in 2017 by missionaries who debate Jews) understanding of Tanakh and NT and you jump in with some quote from a rabbi in “back-then BCE”. Could you imagine being on a political debate stage in 2017 and in response to a question about foreign policy responding with “Well, there were a few Democrats in 1922 who said…”?
The audience would be scratching their heads, wondering what you’d been smoking.
I am addressing the arguments used by Christianity, as it is commonly known, in 2017 (Gean is not really a Christian, but a hybrid of his own determination, as most “Christians” who post here are).
So back to the point. John the Baptist was claimed to be the fulfillment of Malachi’s prophecy. He still is. Malachi’s prophet would “turn the hearts of fathers to sons and sons to fathers”. It is obvious, regardless of whether there was a “lowly messiah” or a “:kingly messiah”, that John the baptist did not accomplish this. The extent of John’s “making straight the path” was the immersion of a handful of people and once saying Jesus was “the lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world” ( did he?).
My examples from the NT all point to the fact that neither Jesus nor John nor Paul acknowledged a prophet that would “turn the hearts of the sons to the fathers.” They went with what they had- John the Baptist- who accomplished pretty much nothing. Also, can you show me where “the rabbis who said” ever said the prophet of Malachi would fail miserably and the lowly messiah would ” come with a sword” to divide one’s house and make enemies of families, demand to be “believed in” on penalty of eternal damnation and worshiped as the only way to God? Can you show me where such rabbis ever predicted that the world would become more degenerate upon the advent of the Messiah? That the temple would be destroyed shortly after his arrival and that he was to be human a sacrifice who would declare God’s covenant with Israel null and void, blind them spiritually and give the truth to the Pagan Romans?
These are the claims of Christianity according to present thought and according to the New Testament ( historic cherry-picking being irrelevant). If the “rabbis who said…” did not claim this, then please put those arguments away and let Gean respond of his own accord or bring ALL of them and show us the church is correct in her thinking. I really don’t care if you can dig up an obscure rabbinical drash or two to support a Christian thought or two. In exchange, I agree not to quote early the Gnostics, Justin Martyr or Pliny the Elder for “historical support” for current Jewish thinking. For that matter, I will also forego quoting Jeremiah Wright and David Koresh. Otherwise, we may as well start quoting Reconstructionist, Reform and Renewal Judaism.
Keep your eye on the ball.
And this should be obvious for anybody who reads the text of Malachi and the new testament, unless you want to deny the obvious because of your biased agenda!
These are the claims of Christianity according to present thought and according to the New Testament ( historic cherry-picking being irrelevant).
I agree cherry picking is irrelevant. How many christians do you know who actually hate their parents, or want to create war, and understand Jesus to be telling them to hate and cause injury?
I objected to your caricature and generalization that “Jesus said he came to bring a sword,” means “be bad,” (thats your insinuation) while Torah says peace, (and is therefore all good.)
The halacha (thats not merely one rabbis interpretation,) says the messiah will fight the wars of G-d. Whether its JC or Judaism’s moshiach, he will fight wars, and divide righteous and wicked. Criticizing the Christian Bible for saying Messiah brings a sword is asinine when your messiah will do the same.
Or if I’m mistaken, are you literally expecting Elijah to literally physically descend from heaven with lights and a Shofar, (a miracle,)
Isn’t it more likely that the tradition believes and expects that (whoever the messiah is,) will have a forerunner who people think is Elijah because he will ultimately exhibit Elijah’s unique qualities and role?
Im not saying John the Baptist was Elijah, im saying that when Jesus says “If you will bear it, this was the Elijah spoken of,”
he’s talking about John as a forerunner, just like every other failed messiah candidate until now has claimed a forerunner, and ultimately, one day, a person will actually succeed where the others failed, and people will say of that successful person (and his forerunner,) “look! Here (finally) is the true messiah, and his forerunner who turned the hearts of the fathers to the children and purified Levi with Urim and Thumim, as Elijah is said to do.”
I dont know of any religious Jews who literally expect some guy to “beam down,” and say “hi I’m Eliyahu.”
“Criticizing the Christian Bible for saying Messiah brings a sword is asinine when your messiah will do the same.”
“I objected to your caricature and generalization that “Jesus said he came to bring a sword,” means “be bad,”
Matt 10 :34- 36 : Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’…
Sure, CR, nothing “bad” there. Perfectly in tune with Malachi 4:
“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. “He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”…
My mistake.You are right as always.
“How many Christians do you know who actually hate their parents…
Quite a few. I taught at a Christian high school, remember? And I have seen it go both ways.
,”…or want to create war”
You mean the ones I know personally who say “all towel heads must die! Every man, woman and child, Muslim or Sikh!” Those Christians? The same ones who mock me for not eating pork and call this the “Joonited States of America”? Those Christians? And yes, these are the same people who listen to K-Love at work and make hateful racist comments over lunch.
“…and understand Jesus to be telling them to hate and cause injury? ”
Easily millions over two millenia, even using your exaggerated definition.
You must live a sheltered life if you don’t know this.
I apologize for the porovocative interpretation of Malachi, but please remind ourselves that we are here to get closer to the truth of the word of God. My analogy of fathers and children as Jews and Christians, as Elijah and Elisha and as John the Baptist and Yeshua seems to create dispute among us; however, this sort of interpretation cannot be ignored because the Tanach and NT continue to use this sort of literary skill- hiding the secret of the future in the present narratives and show analogy to kindle our curiosity ( i hope my english makes sense to you). For example, Deteronomy 29:28 says, ” The hidden things belong to the Lord, our God, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah.”
I am curious if the prophecy of Moses about Levites has something to do with the theme of union of fathers and children as i introduced my spun- out- of- thin air interpretion (i learn many great English expressions here, thanks!). Deuteronomy 33:8.And of Levi he said: “Your Tummim and Urim belong to Your pious man, whom You tested at Massah and whom You tried at the waters of Meribah
– Tummim & Urim, Jacob& Israel, alludes to these two groups? The pious man could be “saints” which both Tanach and NT call their target audience?
9.who said of his father and his mother, ‘I do not see him’; neither did he recognize his brothers, nor did he know his children, for they observed Your word and kept Your covenant.”
– Is this what is going on among Jews and Chrisitans today?
10.They shall teach Your ordinances to Jacob, and Your Torah to Israel; they shall place incense before You, and burnt offerings upon Your altar.
-.Does this show the future generation of the priests made up of Jews and Chrisitans, who will worship God in truth and Spirit?
Malachi 1:11 “For, from the rising of the sun until its setting, My Name is great among the nations, and everywhere offerings are burnt and offered up to My Name; yea, a pure oblation (Muktar or ktora; incense; same word as Deut.33:10), for My Name is great among the nations, says the Lord of Hosts.”
11.May the Lord bless his army and favorably accept the work of his hands; strike the loins of those who rise up against him and his enemies, so that they will not recover.
– the Army of the Lord, wasn’t it the name God has spoken to the Israelites PLUS minor gentiles during exodus?
I don’t know, brothers and sisters, the words of the prophet Malachi keep linking me to the image of the NT. When he talks about “wife of your youth” and “one who had the rest of the spirits,” in 2:14-15, the image of the union of the bride and bridegroom which John the Baptist talked about came to my mind and so appeared the Paul’s term “ONE new man” in the Spirit and the word of God (Ephesians 2:13-18) also.
I hope you all enjoy this great time of the year, Sukkot! Hag Sameach~
Could you imagine being on a political debate stage in 2017 and in response to a question about foreign policy responding with “Well, there were a few Democrats in 1922 who said…”?
Eleazer, thats not what I’m doing. You are saying “its blameworthy that Jesus says “if you will bear it, this is the Elijah spoken of,” of the baptist, when I’m saying that this (declaring a forerunner fits an Elijah role,) is so ubiquitous in Judaism that every other claimant has done this, even though they failed.
One day, some guy and his number two will fulfill it all, then you will all say “Aha! These guys fit,” and it wont be because some guy beamed out of heaven.
Eleazer, is the messiah a meek non warrior or a king like David or Solomon?
You are missing the irony in your comnent.
You are essentially saying “look at all the millitarism of Jesus, who says he comes to bring war, how unworthy of a messiah”
while at the very same time, Jesus cant be the Jewish messiah, because the real messiah doesn’t die, but will subdue Israel’s enemies in battle like David his ancestor did ”
Which is it? Is moshiach a meek and mild harmless prophet, or does he fight wars?
Using Jesus’ call to bring the sword to the wicked as a dusqualifuer and as a clear sign of his inadequacy and instability is self contradicting.
The traditional Jewish messiah is a warrior king who works together with a high priest annointed for war, who enforces Torah observance, and yet the Christian candidate is thoroughly disqualified when he mentions a sword?
So, Eleazer the sytstemic American racism against “towel heads” is indicative of people practicing their Christianity faithfully right?
It has nothing to do with Americans fighting over a decade of wars with Muslim extremists in the middle east, this experience then coloring their view, and then this combined with fear and idiots not wanting to learn about other cultures?
No, it must be the religion. That is the source.
It has nothing to do with the fact that there are fools in every culture does it? Nah. Its Christianity.
Speaking from experience, as I am actually descended from Egyptian Catholic “towel heads” on ny father’s side, (even though I do not look anything other than a Caucasian,) thats not an exclusively Christian thing, thats just being an ass.
Ive had random strangers shout “Jew!” At me, just because of idiocy. I dont believe thats because of their religion at all, thats just stupidity.
Just because you worked with assholes, and they happened to be Christians, doesnt mean Christian ethics give them grounds.
My only question to the representatives of Judaism is – why do you go into lengthy discussions on some delicate details, when a glaring problems of the so called New Testament are not properly addressed by Christian side?
Biggest problem that actually deconstructs NT is a blatant misquoting and misrepresenting of the verses from Tanakh. There are well documented, numerous examples that were never justified or explained.
Secondary problem is contradictory, schizophrenic nature of gospel accounts, Paul’s writings and other parts of the NT.
Until satisfactory answers are given to those problems I don’t see how a constructive discussion can move forward. At all.
Don’t get tangled in philosophical and theological musings – just demand straightforward answers to the most obvious problems.
Nikola, I agree. Deuteronomy 4 is what demolished Christianity for me.
The reason I bring up theological musings is because Judaism and Christianity (taken as a whole,) both believe in traditions outside of the Bible that guide how they understand the text.
So, for example, if you just focus on the Hebrew Bible alone, (with minimal interpretation,) that may have a huge impact on a Sola Scriptura Protestant, but it wont phase a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christian.
By the sane token Nikola if a Jewush person says “you Christians are idiots for believing in all this extra biblical stuff to justify Jesus,” but then says “if you want to understand the Bible, learn the Talmud,” it seems to some like you are exchanging one extra biblical for another.
Deuteronomy 4 and the knowledge that Israel is the target auduence is enough ammo if a person focuses on the text.
My only point to the Judaism side is that they often forget, and maybe forgive, those glaring problems and move on to the more subtle points.
As long as this is just intellectually curios debate on the theological details, that’s fine. But if we are talking about the essence of the faith, then the discussion must begin and end with the blatant muisquotations and misrepresentations in the NT.
Christianity is a new religion, very similar to Islam or Buddhism. It’s not a “renewed” covenant or anything of that sort. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with any of those religions. But they are equally separate from the religion of Israel, as given in Torah.
Christians who desperately try to present themselves as a “renewed” Israel are doing disservice to both themselves and Jews.
My opinion is that you might as well be saved as a Christian, but as soon as you’re trying to convert Jews and change what is given eternally by Torah, you are commuting a grave sin.
Validity of the opinions of various rabbis throughout history and even today is highly debatable. But it’s not up to gentiles to concern themselves too much with it.
The fact is that you won’t find many Jews going around trying to convert Christians, but there are numerous organized Christian groups trying to convert Jews. Some do it because of their genuine feelings, many do it for material and other benefits. Nevertheless, you have to recognize this imbalance between Christianity and Judaism and acknowledge the problem that Jews are facing in light of the nature of both religions. Unfortunately, Judaism today has to fight many “enemies”, including secularism. And it’s not an easy fight.
That’s why I just pointed out to anyone who intends to debate a Christian to just stick to the obvious and glaring problems, instead of venturing into small details where they can meet deception and other tactics.
My post was intended for general use, not specifically for this blog.
Well said, Nikola!
discussed was 2 powers in heaven, bar nasha and angel of the lord.
Rav B, please excuse my language in the above post.
I find debates like that endlessly humerous. The imam talks about how God is one, and only, while the Quran and Hadith treat Muhammad as a sinless mouthpiece of God, whom it is heretical to question.
Same problems, different theological formulations.