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1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
i have a headache everytime Christians worship the blood or use the chant “in the name of the blood of Jesus” to pray for healing or for spiritual battle without emphasizing of the obeying the word of God.
Yet Torah said life is in the blood (human or animal, no specific mention, right?) , So the life in the blood seems to be what goes against the angel of death on Passover night. The Gospel of John records Yeshua shed blood and water (John symbolizes water as life in his book) on Crucifixion. So there is something to think about.
Had Pinchas not shed blood there would have been no atonement for Israel at Shittim. An atonement is required for redemption. So also the Levites at Sinai, or Judah at Gibeah, or the Cohenim at Golgotha.
Charles God knows how to write and get His point across – He never once said “there is no atonement without the shedding of blood,” He did repeat and emphasize “repent”
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
I agree with the emphasis on repentance and obedience, but that is not an atonement. An atonement is a transfer of punishment to a representative individual or individuals. This is the real meaning of the Passover – the redeeming of the firstborn from the due consequence of sin.
Let me share what I’ve studied about the Hebrew words. Atonement is Kafar in Hebrew, means “to cover up,” (Lev.17:11, Numbers 16:47, etc) whereas, Redeeming is Padah in Hebrew meaning “pay the price.” So, “a transfer of punishment to a representative individual” seems not so much atonement (kafar) as redemption (padah).
cpsoper Interesting that you get bogged down as to which name each thing has. Again, what does God say? He says if you repent I forgive (Isaiah 55:7) that he will not remember the sins (Ezekiel 33:16) and talking to the nation – that he will bring us back to His land (Deuteronomy 30:2)
1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >
Leviticus 17:11, “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have therefore given it to you [to be placed] upon the altar, to atone for your souls. For it is the blood that atones for the soul.” Rabbi, you meant “there is FORGIVING of SINS with repentance,” not “there is ATONEMENT of SOULS with repentance.” Didn’t you?
Hi Gean,
This comment may not be related to the discussion at hand. I understand that this is a counter missionary site. However ,please treat this as an internal argument between believers in the Body of Christ .
Your comment made me recall a conversation we had about the Gospel of John chapter 6 , which centered on our understanding on the meaning of the body and blood of Jesus ,which started from the link here https://judaismresources.net/2020/06/08/hope/#comment-104842
I understand that you find the Catholic interpretation of Jesus’s body and blood in the literal sense troubling . You pointed out in that conversation that the Catholic’s understanding of these elements as detrimental to both Christians and Jews. You emphasized the concern that you have with the Catholic interpretation twice in your conversation to me , even though I found our understanding of Jesus’s body and blood -physical or metaphorical in that conversation as irrelevant.
However , it seems to me that you are taking a different position in your comment here. You see the blood as a crucial element to atone for one’s soul, despite your concerns when hearing Christians invoking the blood of Jesus in their prayers.
What I need to highlight here is the inconsistent stand that you have on the meaning of Jesus’s body and blood in our conversation (that it should be seen in a metaphorical sense ) and your comment about the significance of the blood for one’s atonement , perhaps because the blood here points to Jesus shedding blood and water when he was crucified (which seems to be in a physical sense).
I do not wish to impute any motives on you , but it seems that there is a different standard being employed if there are discussions on this topic with Catholics like myself and discussion with other Christians/Jews .
There are many Christians other than Catholics , other than you , who seem to harbor some sort of prejudice towards Catholics and anything Catholic. We Catholics are seen as idolaters and regarded as not genuine believers of Jesus. I have seen one comment in this blog , by a believer of Jesus a few years back, which describes Catholics in the worst possible term imaginable that I literally cringe when I read it.
However , the very group of people who condemn Catholics are in fact doing the same thing that they condemn in us. Its like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes , we Catholics venerate statues and all sorts of imagery . Yes, we Catholics worship Jesus-His Body , Blood , Soul and Divinity-all of him. We are not ashamed to proclaim it to the world through our street processions and outward forms of devotion. However isn’t it true that most non Catholic Christians (NCC) worship Jesus too ? The only element absent in NCC worship is the statues/crucifixes/incense-the outward trappings of idolatry. However , ask yourself, which divine entity is reigning supreme in your hearts? Is that not worse?
It is I , the idolater , the Jesus worshipper who should be defending the importance of blood in the atonement of one’s soul , not you , a non Trinitarian believer of Jesus. I should be the one seeking clarification from Rabbi Blumenthal, yet my comment is the very opposite of that.
This comment goes out , not only to you , but to all the NCCs out there , which includes the missionary who is following this blog. Don’t distance yourselves from Orthodox Christianity when explaining/smoothing away the past sins of the Church against the Jewish people. You condemn the sins of Orthodox Christianity , yet you adopt our core theology and creeds. This is sheer hypocrisy.
A reminder before I end , to those reading this comment , please treat this as an internal argument between believers in the Body of Christ -literal or metaphorical .
Thank you.
Brother Sharon, Shalom!
I’m sorry for the delay. Working full-time in church plus living with wife and 5 kids in Corona era is hectic. I was scared while reading your pointed arguments and humbled by your logical criticism on my double standard on the blood of Jesus. You kindly and acutely defended your theology and Catholic tradition. It is all right.
Let me clarify what I believe although i don’t know how to organize my thoughts about this deep concept. I believe the atoning work of the blood of Jesus on the cross, but it is not something all we need for our salvation, nor something to worshipped or appreciated all the time. If it were, the epistles of New Testament must have been packed with the teachings on it. Yet you know the overall message of the epistles: how to LIVE according to the word of God (Torah).
We know that there are two concepts in the Bible: Atonement (Kafar: to cover) and Redemption (Padah: to pay the price). I know my knoweldge is very limited about this deep Jewish truth. The shedding of blood of Jesus as the lamb of God is to cover up our shame and sins once and for all. It is like an exodus event. WE were set free from the bondage of sin which keeps us ashamed and fearful as the Israelites were set free from the bondage of Pharaoh’s slavery and oppression. Yet there are much more! We need to redeem (padah) the firstborn sons of Egypt who were slaughtered for our salvation.,
“And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.” (Ex.13:15)
How do we redeem the son of God who were crucified for us?
Paul taught that we need to be led by the Spirit which prompts us to obey the Torah.
Romans 8:12-13 “So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
–> Q. what it means to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit? It means to obey the Torah. To live a life that pays the price of the blood of Yeshua.
A. Rom. 8:4 “in order that the righteous requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
I believe the crucifixion is for us to have this boldness to come to God and call HIM again, “father!”
Romans 8:15 “For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Yet we all know that we need to do more than calling HIM Father.
So, whether Christians or Catholics venerate the bloody Jesus on the crosse everyday without acting out the Torah, they are half-saved. Their death penalty has been annulled but don’t know how to live outside of the prison. They are fugitives without having secure place to live. They are only animal slaughters on the court without entering the holy place to have a living fellowship with God.
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the LORD;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?” (Is 1:12-13)
Let me turn to the story of Ruth.
1. Ruth entered the land of the covenant which is the inheritance of the Jewish people around Passover season. Church passed over from the pagan world to the community of God of Israel by Christ’s crucifixion.
2. Ruth met her redeemer by the help of her mother-in law Naomi and be united with him and received the seed and gave birth to a life around Chag Shavuot. Israel received the Torah and Church received the Spirit around Pentecoast season to live it out.
3. Therefore, Judaism (Naomi) must bring the Torah (Seed: Boaz) to teach the Christianity (Ruth),
and Christianity must receive the Torah and live it out as the seed grows up to bear fruit.
Then the world redemption will complete and be ready to receive the Messiah.
I’m honored to be with you in this journey with our precious brothers and sisters in this blog. Ishtabakh Shemo La Ad~!!
Hi Gean,
I hope that all is well with you and your family , especially in the time of the Coronavirus pandemic.
Thank you for your honest and humble reply to my comment. I am sorry if my comments made you scared . I appreciate that you take the time to explain your beliefs to me . It is very illuminating and I hope you won’t mind if I comment on that.
The message of the epistles is clear-All human beings (Man) “contracted” the sin of Adam. Human nature is not totally corrupted but is inclined to sin . Man is not able to achieve favor with God/ salvation purely from his/her own efforts , but only through righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ . All , Jew and Gentile ,have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are justified by grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith (Romans 3:22-25).
As you can see from the above verses , Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross is both has both concepts of atonement and redemption . Both atonement and redemption are gifts from God which does not require effort on our part.
I don’t think Christians (Catholics included) see their belief in Jesus as a free ticket to paradise. We are created in Christ Jesus to do good works (Ephesians 2:10) . However good works should never supplant the grace that God has given us, lest we boast. You should read Romans 8 against Galatians chapter 1-5 , where Paul admonished the churches in Galatia who were being persuaded to follow Jewish Law. Paul stated “After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh” (Gal 3:3) . He further stated ‘’You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ: you have fallen away from grace “ (Galatians 5:4).
Christians try to search for any clues of Jesus in the Jewish Scriptures (OT) and its concepts as types or shadows of New Testament (NT) realities. It seems that you are going in the opposite direction by trying to fit the NT into the narratives of the Jewish Scriptures.
I would suggest that the best way to approach both the Jewish Scriptures and the NT is to read them independently and on its own terms. Do not import foreign concepts/ideas into your reading of these Scriptures-and that includes importing NT concepts when you read the Jewish Scriptures and vice versa. It may be easier said than done as we are raised in our religious traditions to see both scriptures as one unit. However an independent , objective reading is the best way to appreciate the message of both sets of scriptures.
Shalom Sharon.
I see that your understanding of the New Testament is very traditional and typical as i did it in the past, too. Yet let me share what i’ve found and realized in deeper level.
“Man is not able to achieve favor with God/ salvation purely from his/her own efforts , but only through righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ” I believe this is a theology derived from mistranslation and misinterpretation. Romans say mostly “faith of Jesus Christ,” not “faith in Jesus Christ.” (Rom.3:22, 26) Very influential New Testament scholars such as E.P. Sanders, James G. Dunn, N.T. Wright support it, you might want to check “New Perspective on Paul” something like that.
Gospel which Paul understood is not all about OUR faith in Jesus, rather Jesus’ faith-pisitis: faithfulness: emunah in Tanakh which is his obedience and righteousness to his Father God.
Ordinary Christians might think, “faith has come so that God will justify us when we put faith in Jesus. Therefore, the age of the Law when God justifies those who keep the Law has finished.” Paul exactly expected such a response, so he said, “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law!” (Rom. 3:31)
Let me tell you two aspects of justification by faith of Jesus Christ.
First, God justifies entire family or city by one man’s faithfulness or righteousness. Noah’s whole family was saved by one man- Noah’s righteousness. God was able to save Sodom and Gomorrah if there were 10 righteous men. God saved Lot because of Abraham’s righteousness (Gen. 19:29) God was able to forgive Jerusalem if there were one righteous man (Jeremiah 5:1). Paul declared, “so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.” (Rom.5:18b).
Second, God’s justification by faith of Jesus Christ is like a marriage contract. Imagine, a groom brings her bride and says to his father, “father, i believe she will love me and follow me that she will obey your rule in this new life in your house. Accept her to your family.”
This is Christ’s faith about the people of God (Jews and Christians)). To justify is to reckon with faith. Those who are justified (bride) ACT not to disappoint the one (Jesus Christ) who put faith in them.
This is Why Paul could not replace the righteousness by keeping the law with righteousness by believing in Jesus. Because our believing in Jesus or putting faith in God as Abraham did was only for “to JUSTIFY.” When God justified Abraham when he believed God’s promise, God reckoned that Abraham would really remain in the land and love his wife to have children. When Abraham believed, God believed Abraham would participate in making the promise reality.
To put it all together, God’s justification through the faith of Yehsua includes 1. our faith in Jesus that God has forgiven my sins, 2. Jesus’ faith that we will live a new holy life (“born again”) to keep the Torah, and 3. God reckons (with faith) that we are righteous man like Jesus.
This is what it means to “ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed FROM FAITH TO FAITH: as it is written, The just shall live by HIS faith” (Rom. 1:17) I emphasize the deeds and you do the faith. I sound like a Catholic and you like a protestant. Funny!
Hi Gean,
Thank you for sharing your interpretation on the core teachings of the NT . You distinguish between “faith of Jesus Christ” and “faith in Jesus Christ”. I read a bit about it online and found that the interpretation of “pistis christou” is quite a big debate in new testament theology. The above term was translated as “faith of Christ” (Galatians 3:22 ;Romans 3:22) in the King James version of the Bible for quite a while. Perhaps no one had paid attention to this until recent times.
I understand from your argument that our sins are forgiven through our faith in Jesus . However we should emulate the “faith of Jesus Christ” . Jesus , through his teachings and deeds have shown us the perfect example of trust and obedience to God for us to follow There should be a clear distinction between admiring righteous acts/ virtues as examples to be emulated and deifying the person who has these qualities . However , I am not sure if Paul see these distinctions let alone taught them clearly. Please consider the following verses:
a. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain (Phillipians 1:21)
b. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified”
(1 Corinthians 2:2)
c. Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1)
d. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20,KJV)
Notice that according to Galatians 2:20 ,Paul live by the “faith of the Son of God’’ . However this comes after Paul declared that he no longer lives , but Christ lives in him.
Having “faith in Christ” means making Christ the center of our lives, thereby making us imitators of Christ (having the “faith of Christ”). There need not be a dichotomy between the two.
I don’t really understand point regarding the example of Abraham in Romans 4 . Paul use the example Abraham , who believed in God’s promises , even before the command for circumcision (the law) was given in order to show that one is justified and made righteous through faith apart from works. How is Abraham’s act of remaining in the land (to show that he has faith in God’s promises) a form of work?
My apologies if you see me as a Protestant from the nature of my comments . My intent is to show that both the Jewish Scriptures (OT) and the New Testament have distinct messages that are opposed to each other. These scriptures should be read independently without the message of one scripture influencing the reading of the other.
I have not come across any verse in the Jewish Scriptures which suggest that I should put my faith in another entity other than the Creator of Universe for me to be JUSTIFIED before Him. You are right in that God justify families/cities by one person’s righteousness. However these scriptures did not teach its readers to believe in the righteous acts of Noah , Abraham or Moses for them to be made right with God.The God of the Jewish Scriptures rewards each person according to their conduct , according to what their deeds deserve (Jeremiah 17:10). The God of the Jewish Scriptures creates our hearts and considers everything we do (Psalm 33:15). The God of the Jewish Scriptures only requires for the wicked to turn from their evil ways and do what is right (Ezekiel 18:23;33:19). The message of the NT , as I have shown above clearly advocate the belief in another entity as the first step for us our sins to be forgiven and for us to be justified before God (the God of the New Testament).
There is a tendency for us to dilute/water down the central message of one Scripture in order to fit the message/central character in one scripture to the other. I believe that the distinct message of both sets of scriptures should not be watered down just to fit our convictions. It is just not right. Thank you.
Here’s a really easy way to settle the debate: you’re both wrong 😉
Hi Dina,
Hope you and your family are well.
So, what is the right answer? Care to share?
Gean Guk Jeon
Here is a couple links to add to this video clip where this is explained a little more.
https://judaismresources.net/2010/08/31/atonement/
https://judaismresources.net/2013/02/13/blood-atonement/
If you got to Jews For Judaism on you tube there is also another new video that explains atonement more using the NT misunderstanding / vs / what the Torah says.
Brother Larry, thank you for the reference. I looked up the verses on the link and learned that the shedding of blood is not the only way for atonement. I was ignorant. So, i looked at the Hebrew’s quotation of Leviticus 17:11 again and found i misunderstood (maybe most Christians, too) what the author intended to say:
“Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And ALMOST ALL THINGS are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.” (Hebrews 9:21-22)
The context was within the works of the priests in the tabernacle. Not everything but ALMOST all things were atoned by shedding of blood BY THE LAW. That was the meaning. I picked out the last sentence and applied it to all kinds of Christian theology.
Thank you all for the truth!!
God bless you!
Hi Charles,
You wrote “atonement is a transfer of punishment to a representative individual or individuals”. It seems from the examples you highlighted that the shedding of blood is an important element of atonement.
Aaron, upon Moses’s instruction offered incense and made atonement for the Israelites when a plague occured among them after Korah’s rebellion . The plague stopped as a result (Numbers 16:41-50). Aaron did not receive a transfer of punishment from the Israelites. There was no shedding of blood , yet the narratives clearly defined this as an act of atonement.
Abraham prayed to God for Abimelek , his wife and female slaves so that they could have children again ( Genesis 20:17). Isaac prayed on behalf of Rebekah because she was childless ( Genesis 25:21).Moses prayed on behalf of Pharoah for the plagues to be averted in a few occasions (Exodus 8:12,30; 9:29;10:18). Are all these atoning acts?
I can identify with Rabbi Blumenthal’s argument. There are situations in certain cultures where certain animals are regarded as sacred. Slaughtering and consumption of the meat from this animal is frowned upon and can incite communal tensions. Think about the Muslims in India , who are not able to slaughter cows openly during the Eid-Al-Adha festival as required by the tenets of their faith, as cows are regarded as sacred by the Hindu majority.
The act of the Israelites openly slaughtering the lamb and putting its blood on the sides and top of their doorposts is a clear act of faith. Their actions could have incited violence, but their faith in God is much greater. It is a lesson all of us can learn from.