An Open Letter to Rabbi S. Boteach
Dear Rabbi Boteach. You seem to be surprised by the firestorm that erupted around your new book Kosher Jesus”. Your book was not even released and it was already banned. You have found yourself attacked from all quarters and you have valiantly wielded your keyboard against your critics. The upshot of your self-defense is that you are the representative of a fearless and broad-minded Judaism, while all of your opponents belong to the medieval, closed-minded, fanatical Judaism which the authors of the New Testament so vividly portray.
May I humbly introduce a new concept into your vocabulary which may allow you to see this controversy in a new light. It is called: sensitivity.
Symbols come with a lot of baggage. Take a flag as an example. If I were to burn the stars and stripes in front of a crowd of veterans who risked their lives for this great country; that would be insensitive. If I am wearing a uniform of the United States Army as I burn the flag; then my act would be doubly insensitive. If I then get up and explain to the enraged crowd that the stars actually represent communist North Korea, the red stripes represent China, while the white stripes represent the robes of the Afghan Taliban; it would not make my act any more refined.
Whether you like it or not, the word “Jesus” has become a symbol. 2000 years of history have imbued that word with a lot of negative meaning for our people. Aside from the horrors of persecution that have become so inextricably bound up with this name, there is the issue of idolatry. 2000 years of history have infused the word “Jesus” with the connotation of worship of a man – a concept that is the very antithesis of what it means to be a Jew.
The word “Kosher” also comes along with a meaning. “Kosher” doesn’t just mean that something is fine and good; it means that something is fine and good for those Jews whose lives are dedicated to God and to His Torah.
The fact that you are an Orthodox Rabbi and a Chabad Chassid is also accompanied by symbolism. When you talk, you represent something that is larger than yourself. You represent Chassidus Chabad, you represent Orthodox Jews, and you represent all of the Jews throughout history who carried the name “Jew” through fire and water.
Putting the words “Kosher” and “Jesus” on the same line in a public setting, is insensitive. Doing so while wearing the uniform of an Orthodox Rabbi, is doubly insensitive. Your shock at the firestorm that erupted when you trampled on the deepest feelings of the people who your uniform represents, would indicate that the concept: “sensitivity”, is completely foreign to you.
When one of Judaism’s most respected scholars banned your book, you could have used that as an opportunity to share one of Judaism’s most precious teachings with the world, namely; respect for Torah scholars. You could have humbled yourself towards a Torah scholar, and respectfully asked for an explanation. You would have set an example of humility before those who have imbibed more of God’s Torah than ourselves. Instead, you chose the opposite path. You chose to teach the world how to trample on the honor of Torah knowledge.
You were recently criticized by Rabbi M. Skobac, a man who has dedicated his life to the education of our people, specifically in the realm of countering the persuasions of Christian missionaries. Rabbi Skobac echoed Rabbi Schochet’s sentiment by identifying your book as a stumbling block, a work that will cause confusion, rather than encouraging education. Instead of stepping back, and considering the words of people who are both wiser and more experienced than yourself, you went on the attack. You had the incredible arrogance to lecture down to one of the foremost educators of our nation, “advising” him to write more books to educate Jews!
Your article attributes motives to those who criticize your book. You contend that your critics denounce your book because they want us to “fear the Christians”.
Did it perhaps occur to you that men who tower over you in every virtue are not as petty, fanatical and closed-minded as you make them out to be? Is it so hard for you to understand that in your attempt to redefine “Jesus”, you have inadvertently made a statement that redefines Judaism? Is it so difficult for you to see that the two slogans: “Kosher Jesus” and “Jews for Jesus” are synonymous?
Your article goes on to “warn” Rabbi Schochet and Rabbi Skobac that if they don’t come around to seeing things your way that they run the risk of becoming “dinosaurs”.
You may be aware that this “warning” has been the theme-song of all of our spiritual enemies throughout the ages. The Jewish people have always been “warned” that if they don’t join in the society where chutzpah reigns supreme, and Torah knowledge means nothing, then they run the risk of becoming dinosaurs. But the Jewish people are still here. The Jewish values of sensitivity and respect for Torah knowledge are eternal. Those who live by these eternal values will live forever in the memories of our people and in the lives they impact. It is those who trample on these values who run the risk of becoming dinosaurs.
Rabbi Boteach, you could have avoided causing our people so much heartache, by consulting with the wise men of our nation before taking unilateral action. It is too late for that now. But it is still not too late for you to teach the world another Jewish value. You could set an example for repentance. Should you choose the path of repentance, your memory would shine forever as a rare example of courage in retracting a public mistake. However, should you chose to tie your reputation to the crude and confusing slogan: “Kosher Jesus”, then you would be better off being a dinosaur.
Yisroel Chaim Blumenthal
If you found this article helpful please consider making a donation to Judaism Resources by clicking on the link below.
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=FEAQ55Y7MR3E6
Judaism Resources is a recognized 501(c) 3 public charity and your donation is tax exempt.
Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
“You could have humbled yourself towards a Torah scholar, and respectfully asked for an explanation. You would have set an example of humility before those who have imbibed more of G-d’s Torah than ourselves. Instead, you chose the opposite path. You chose to teach the world how to trample on the honor of Torah knowledge.”
A shonda for the goyim.
Reblogged this on koshersamurai and commented:
A ‘must read’ article by R’ Yisroel Chaim Blumenthal on a very important topic!
Reblogged this on Vampyre Fangs and commented:
A deeply insightful article by R’ Yisroel Chaim Blumenthal on an important topic.
“Is it so difficult for you to see that the two slogans: “Kosher Jesus” and “Jews for Jesus” are synonymous?”
As if it were somehow possible to kasher Jesus and make him kosher. Likewise a Jew to be “for” Jesus. *sigh*…Schmuley
Pingback: Quotes on “Kosher Jesus” « Faith(based) Works
As I wrote before and months ago, there are some who want to make Jesus Kosher. That means man needs to “clean-up” Jesus’ faults (without Koshering the NT, the source of Jesus). That means one must “manufacture” a Jesus that is acceptable to the ordinary Jew. While to a Christian (most who have no idea what kosher even means), will see that “kosher” Jesus as an attempt by Jews (the “awful Judaizers”, the “blind legalists”, the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc) to once again “kill” Jesus. Rather then to make Jews and Judaism tolerable, even accepable to non-Jews, Jews must change and accept Christianity, not only as acceptable or kosher (correct worship), but superior. Reject the idea of “being a Light” to the nations. Reject the promise of a remnant Israel that is faithful to God and instead join the “nations”. Forget be Holy because God is Holy. See God in man’s image, rather than man in God’s. In other words, bring the God of Israel down to the level of the nations “human-god”. Bring God down rather than lifting man up.
On the other hand, I’ve seen Christians who were looking for a more “Jewish Jesus” try to find him in messianic churches. And feeling let down, they convert to Judaism. But that path works only for a few seekers.
Jesus is the most misunderstood person who ever lived on earth. Jesus never claimed He is the messiah or son of God. When Peter the leader of his apostles said to Jesus you are the Messiah (Christ) Jesus strictly commanded them “you should tell no one that he was Jesus the Messiah (Christ)”. Jesus might not have used the word Christ because it was coined after the death of Jesus. It is Christians who put that word into the mouth Jesus.Nowhere in the New Testament it is stated Jesus revoked that command.
Not only that, Jesus is the first known Jew who questioned the Jewish belief that an individual in the lineage of David would be the Messiah? Jesus questioned the centuries old Jewish tradition not for mere fancy, Jesus seriously meant it. Ordinary contemporary Jews could not understand what Jesus said. But educated orthodox Jews could feel that Jesus is shaking the foundation of Jewish faith. We need not be surprised if they wanted to eliminate Jesus.
All the Jews agree only on one thing that Messiah will be the son of David. Why the Jews believe so? Or what is the basis of that belief? The basis of their belief lies in the promise God gave to David. It is true that God gave a promise to David, but it was a conditional one. That promise was not an unconditional one like the promise which God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You may ask who told you it was a conditional one.
We can see it from the words of David and Solomon. God gave the promise directly to David, and David understood it as a conditional one. See the words of David:-
David said to Solomon,” “I am about to go the way of all the earth,” he said. “So be strong, show yourself a man, and observe what the LORD your God requires: Walk in his ways, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and requirements, as written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go, and that the LORD may keep his promise to me, ‘If your descendants watch how they live, and if they walk faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, you will never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.’.
Salomon also understood it as conditional one, Solomon prayed to God,” “Now LORD, God of Israel, keep for your servant David my father the promises you made to him when you said, ‘You shall never fail to have a man to sit before me on the throne of Israel, if only your sons are careful in all they do to walk before me as you have done.’ . You know more than me, many times sons of David failed to fulfill the condition God put before them. So God is not bound to keep his promise he made to David.
Not only that messiah does not mean “Savior”. Messiah simply means “anointed one”. The Jews mistook the promise God gave to David as unconditional one and they started to give the meaning “ Savior “ for the word messiah. There the Jews started to interpret words of God in the wrong way. And that wrong interpretation culminated in Christian religion.
Yes, it is easy for you & others to misunderstand Jesus, because he is known only by the words of others, who may show one Jesus in Matthew and another in John and several other Jesus’s in other writings by men. And who knows which words were put in Jesus’ mouth by which Christians and at which times?
“Before God sends a new illness to the Jews, He has already provided the cure” goes a Jewish saying. God provided Moses the greatest of all prophets to liberate Jews from the servitude of Egypt.. We hear the voice of Amos and Hosea sixty years before the destruction of the kingdom of Israel and the exile of 10 tribes of Jews. God sent Isaiah and Jeremiah before the destruction of Judea and exile of Jews into Babylon. So is it logical to think that God failed to provide a prophet before the destruction of the kingdom of Judea and Jerusalem temple 2nd time and scattering of the Jews all over the earth? Here comes the importance of Jesus. Like Amos and Hosea, we hear the voice of Jesus some seventy years before the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem and the temple.
But critics say that Jesus Christ never lived on the earth. They say it because there are no official records of the life of Jesus nowhere other than in the gospels. And the things written about Jesus in the Gospels are not historical records. Exact date or who are the authors of the Gospels also are not known to us.. One thing is certain Gospels are written during the first century AD. In the gospels many things are written about the Kingdom of god. The Gospel writers say that it was Jesus a Jew who told all those things about the Kingdom of God. It is immaterial whether it was told by Jesus or any other person, but what matters are the things written about the Kingdom of God. Since the gospel writers attribute those sayings about the Kingdom of God to Jesus let us admit that as such as for the sake of an argument.
Jesus started his mission in a synagogue reading Isaiah 61:1-2. Then he told
the Jews he has come to proclaim two things. (1) to proclaim good tidings. (2) to proclaim the day of vengeance of God.
What were the good tidings Jesus preached?
It is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
Then what is the day of vengeance of God?
Yahweh the God of Israel said to the Jews through Moses “I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute the vengeance of the covenant; and ye shall be gathered together within your cities; and I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy Levi.26: 25 ”. By proclaiming the day of vengeance of God, Jesus said that execution of the vengeance of the covenant is going to take place. About his mission Jesus said “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.. Mt.10:34.The sword Jesus mentioned is “the Sword” foretold by Moses and other prophets.
The contemporary Jews of Jesus failed to understand these things because at the time when Jesus came the Jews devoutly believed that, as Moses had delivered their fathers from Egyptian bondage by miraculous wonders, a Messiah would deliver the Jewish people from Roman domination by even greater miracles of power and marvels of racial triumph. They almost completely believed that it is the right time for their messiah to come and deliver them from the Roman domination. At that juncture they wanted a Messiah and not a prophet like Jesus who prophecy fulfillment of the day of the vengeance of the God up on them. So they refused to listen Jesus.
Thus the prophecy of Ezekiel was fulfilled “ I am sending you to the children of Israel (2:3). You shall speak My words to them (3:4) whether they hear or whether they refuse, yet they will know that a prophet has been among them.(2:5) For you are not sent to a people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, but to the house of Israel, not to many people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, whose words you cannot understand. Surely, had I sent you to them they could have listened to you. But the house of Israel will not listen to you, because they will not listen to me. (3:5-7) It is a wonder! as prophesied by Ezekiel Jews refused to listen Jesus but the Gentiles who didn’t know language of Jesus accepted Jesus even as Son of God. It doesn’t mean Jesus is the son of God. Gentiles those became Christians were not aware what is written in Bible, they simply accepted the preaching of the apostles to get remission of their sins and everlasting life in heaven.
It is time to reassess Jesus and his teachings. Let Kosher Jesus be the first step towards that direction.
He never claimed to be Messiah?
John 4
25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.”
26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
Just a thought from the Christian side of the issue: Jesus is NOT “Kosher” according to the orthodox rabbinical pharisee-ism of Judaism. … but JESUS-Yeshua IS *more than kosher* IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. For He was/is/remains the personification of Love, Sacrificial Love, Sacrificial Atonement/Redemption, wisdom, grace, courage, and moral purity. … call Him “a myth” all you like. HE’S THE REAL DEAL. … and is known ONLY by way of revelation. He Himself plainly said so.
Shalom to those who seek peace & pursue it.
Jesus/yeshua/Iesous is not kosher according to the Hebrew bible. And it is the NT and Christian writings that tells me so, confirms it, and reveals. Some have to ignore or separate out the so-called “Greek Jesus” of the NT in order to get to a “kosher” “Hebrew Yeshua”. But a “Hebrew golden calf-man god-man” is not acceptable to anyone (not just remnant Israel) who truly knows the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob and rejects the God of Saul/Paul. Some call Saul’s god (or Roman-Greek-Egyptian-Babylonian myth) “Yeshua” to judaize him in order to fulfill Reveleations 2:9.
Let me make this very clear: you have NO REVELATION of Jesus. none whatsoever. Only your Jewish PREJUDICE against Him. nothing more. … along with the twisting of MANY scriptures that speak of Him … and even those that foreshadow Him {like the deferred sacrifice of Isaac}. … Here it is again: John 8:24 & 58. also 3:36.
The personification of God as a true living or long-ago dead man might make the man golden & all glittery on the outside, or on the surface, but it is the inner spirit of the calf-man or lamb-man that makes the object/being an idol. Worship of an incarnation, whether it is in the form of a calf, asherah tree, statue, or a man, is the very definition of an idolatry. God said so, why disobey?
I have no Jewish prejudice, I am a sabbath breaking Christian as yourself. It is man who has glorified “Yeshua” as a god in the image of the pagan gods.
It is not only “Rabbinic” Jews, but objective and discerning readers, who see that much of the “scripture twisting” is first done by the authors of the NT themselves. A very small set of select OT verses that are called “fulfilled prophecies” or “foreshadowings” are a form of scripture twisting. Many of those verses are clearly ambiguous, taken out of context, or mis-translated. For every “fulfilled prophecy” there are several more prophecies and verses that negate the concept of “him”. Deut 13:1-5 is fairly clear and can be considered by them as a “foreshadowing” of Jesus-Yehoshua. More vague is the foreshadowing of Yehoshua/Yeshua in Gen 3:1-6, where the crafty serpent promises his first disciple that she “will not die”, “her eyes will be opened”, she will be “like God” or “filled with the ‘holy’ spirit and one in Christ”. According to some early Christian leaders all of the OT should be read as allegory, “a sort of Christian midrash”, as “foreshadowings. So if vague verses can be used to prove or to claim a “foreshadowing” of Jesus, don’t be surprised if they, other people, can use verses to discredit your claims. But what I see as the best arguments that they can make about Jews not believing in Jesus, is the many clear and unambiguous verses and Commandments to obey Him, the original God, not the latter-day representational, pagan modeled, “midrashic” “him” that still requires further persuasion (propaganda?) and personal “revelation” in order to believe in him as some sort of replacement for Him.
You err in saying that this gentleman is in Chabad. Nor is Carlebach.
We can’t hate Jesus because of what his followers have made of him.
Apart from what his followers made of him, how do we know of him at all?
His flock recognizes his voice, and they follow him. Christians have made of Jesus something God never intended. Curious ones will seek to understand all religions. If we search and seek, we will find. God gave some the faith, and Jesus has been my teacher. He led me directly to the Zohar and Chabad Lubavitch. Jesus had become One with the God of the universe, and we can too. God’s essence and revelations are not the same thing.
I only resent one part of this article. I detest the suggestion that S. Boteach represents Chabad. No he does not. I resent the idea that he is a Chabad chasid. No he is not!
“Before God sends a new illness to the Jews, He has already provided the cure” goes a Jewish saying. God provided Moses the greatest of all prophets to liberate Jews from the servitude of Egypt.. We hear the voice of Amos and Hosea sixty years before the destruction of the kingdom of Israel and the exile of 10 tribes of Jews. God sent Isaiah and Jeremiah before the destruction of Judea and exile of Jews into Babylon. So is it logical to think that God failed to provide a prophet before the destruction of the kingdom of Judea and Jerusalem temple 2nd time and scattering of the Jews all over the earth? Here comes the importance of Jesus. Like Amos and Hosea, we hear the voice of Jesus some seventy years before the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem and the temple.
But critics say that Jesus Christ never lived on the earth. They say it because there are no official records of the life of Jesus nowhere other than in the gospels. And the things written about Jesus in the Gospels are not historical records. Exact date or who are the authors of the Gospels also are not known to us.. One thing is certain Gospels are written during the first century AD. In the gospels many things are written about the Kingdom of god. The Gospel writers say that it was Jesus a Jew who told all those things about the Kingdom of God. It is immaterial whether it was told by Jesus or any other person, but what matters are the things written about the Kingdom of God. Since the gospel writers attribute those sayings about the Kingdom of God to Jesus let us admit that as such as for the sake of an argument.
Jesus started his mission in a synagogue reading Isaiah 61:1-2. Then he told
the Jews he has come to proclaim two things. (1) to proclaim good tidings. (2) to proclaim the day of vengeance of God.
What were the good tidings Jesus preached?
It is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
Then what is the day of vengeance of God?
Yahweh the God of Israel said to the Jews through Moses “I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute the vengeance of the covenant; and ye shall be gathered together within your cities; and I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy Levi.26: 25 ”. By proclaiming the day of vengeance of God, Jesus said that execution of the vengeance of the covenant is going to take place. About his mission Jesus said “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.. Mt.10:34.The sword Jesus mentioned is “the Sword” foretold by Moses and other prophets.
The contemporary Jews of Jesus failed to understand these things because at the time when Jesus came the Jews devoutly believed that, as Moses had delivered their fathers from Egyptian bondage by miraculous wonders, a Messiah would deliver the Jewish people from Roman domination by even greater miracles of power and marvels of racial triumph. They almost completely believed that it is the right time for their messiah to come and deliver them from the Roman domination. At that juncture they wanted a Messiah and not a prophet like Jesus who prophecy fulfillment of the day of the vengeance of the God up on them. So they refused to listen Jesus.
Thus the prophecy of Ezekiel was fulfilled “ I am sending you to the children of Israel (2:3). You shall speak My words to them (3:4) whether they hear or whether they refuse, yet they will know that a prophet has been among them.(2:5) For you are not sent to a people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, but to the house of Israel, not to many people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, whose words you cannot understand. Surely, had I sent you to them they could have listened to you. But the house of Israel will not listen to you, because they will not listen to me. (3:5-7) It is a wonder! as prophesied by Ezekiel Jews refused to listen Jesus but the Gentiles who didn’t know language of Jesus accepted Jesus even as Son of God. It doesn’t mean Jesus is the son of God. Gentiles those became Christians were not aware what is written in Bible, they simply accepted the preaching of the apostles to get remission of their sins and everlasting life in heaven.
It is time to reassess Jesus and his teachings. Let Kosher Jesus the first step towards that dirction.
Since “there are no official records of the life of Jesus nowhere other than in the gospels”, and since “the things written about Jesus in the Gospels are not historical records” and since no date is known nor are “the authors of the Gospels also are not known to us”, it is far from true that one “thing is certain Gospels are written during the first century AD”. The great puzzle is that there is a great silence about and much speculation of the historicity of Jesus, even by the early church fathers in the mid-2nd century c.e. and even in many of the canonical letters in the NT. There are many contradictions between John’s gospel and the “synoptical” gospels (and even more problems & contradictions if you include the many non-canonical gospels). And “Q”, a hypothetical source text for that part of Luke and Matthew were they agree, lacks many of the basic principles & beliefs held by Christianity (iow, even the “synoptical” gospels disagree about some basic “facts” about Jesus, such as his genealogy, pre-birth and birth, was taken to Egypt or definitely was not, etc). If a death & resurrection was so very, very important, you would think these believing writers would not contradict themselves so much. And you would also think the NT letter writers would also think the life & death, or historicity, of Jesus was important.
There is a great silence about the fate of the supposed thousands of Jesus’ followers in Jerusalem. Did they fight & die there and also became victims of “God’s day of vengeance”? They were expecting him back SOON (and it was not 70 years as you state, but a little over 30 until the temple of Jesus’s father -which Jesus had tried but failed to cleanse when he was alive- fell to the Romans), and they were expecting a victory. Or did they join up with the Roman butchers and kill their brothers and sisters with the “sword of god’ vengeance? Or did they run like cowards before evil (ran to Roman held Pella) only to fade away and die there in obscurity? Or maybe they didn’t exist either?
“In the gospels many things are written about the Kingdom of god”. So what? Was that kingdom on earth, only in heaven, or supposed to be only in the mind? Jesus failed on the 1st and the 2nd & 3rd already existed, so Jesus was not essential for that. Before Jesus (and after), there were other Jewish writings about the “kingdom of God”, most notably the essenes and the unknown authors of writings discovered at Qumran and other sites. So I don’t understand your point here. And the biblical prophets existed and were believed by more than by just Jesus and they still are believed by Jews. And the NT distorts, contradicts, or ignores quite a bit of those prophets of God.
And Jesus also said that the peace-makers are blessed, so he wasn’t blessed? Funny, some see Jesus as the “pacifists of all pacifists”. Division is of the “devil”. “A house divided can not stand”, so Jesus, like a “devil”, wanted disunity? So that the evil, un-Godly, Roman butchers could succeed in killing many, many innocent women & children? So he actually did not come to “save” nor be a redeemer as he wanted you to believe? There are many faces of Jesus (beside the 2-faced one it appears you present), depending on which NT verses you select and which ones you ignore and which OT you accept, ignore, or take out-of-context,
The NT distorts, contradicts, or ignores quite a bit of those prophets of God.
You are right. John openly admits that their intention was to make others believe Jesus is Christ and son of God. To achieve their intention they have given their own interpretations for the words of God and words of Jesus. That doesn’t say Jesus has distorted the words of God or ignored other prophets.
In fact Jesus said nothing new. All the things he told to the Jews were formerly told to them by their prophets and their forefathers . He preached in the same manner as all other prophets. But there was a very marked peculiarity between the preaching of Jesus and that of all other prophets. The peculiarity of the preaching of Jesus was that “All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables. And without a parable Jesus did not speak to them” (Mt.13:34) By telling every thing in parables, Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms 75:1, which says “Give ear O my people, to my advice, incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us” Jews had already heard the things that Jesus told them from their fathers and old prophets.
Jesus said nothing new, but its meaning was hidden like dark sayings. Normally when some one says parables, he says it with the intention of making his message very simple and clear to the hearer. The most astonishing thing about Jesus was that he said parables with a very different intention. What was that? Why Jesus told every thing in parables?
When Jesus was alone, those around him with the twelve came and asked him “Why do you speak every thing in parables?” Jesus answered “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that “seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them”.
Here who is the “You” to whom it has been given to know the mystery of the Kingdom of God? They are Jews, because Jesus was addressing the Jews. Then who are those outside? They are the Gentiles. So Jesus told every thing in parables with an intention that only Jews should know the mystery of the kingdom of God. Because, they have heard all the things Jesus told in parables from their fathers and the prophets. You may ask why Jews failed to understand his words. Because they refused to listen Jesus Still Jews are refusing to hear Jesus, without listening to Jesus how can you know what he says?
Intention of Jesus was that Gentiles should not understand the meanings of the parables about the kingdom of God. Jesus confirm his intention very specifically stating “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”(Mt.15:24) His mission was not to save Gentiles as the Christians believe and preach. It is not possible to prove or explain it in a small letter. I have written a different interpretation for New Testament to reveal the hidden truth in New Testament. It is not yet published, so I do not wish to disclose more about my views in public.
There are many contradictions between John’s gospel and the “synoptic” gospels. Agreed, my interpretation will help to understand John’s gospel in its real sense I believe.
There is a great silence about the fate of the supposed thousands of Jesus’ followers in Jerusalem. O T has foretold what would happen to them and that really happened, I will explain it in my book.
it was not 70 years as you state, but a little over 30 until the temple of Jesus’s father -which Jesus had tried but failed to cleanse when he was alive- fell to the Romans. I don’t understand what you mean. Would you please explain.
Would you please examine my work and give a constructive criticism so that I can make corrections wherever it needs. Would you please help me? Jesus never claimed he is the messiah, Jesus never claimed he is the son of God as the Christians believe.
Those who reject Jesus as The God-Man, The Word of God made flesh: they have no revelation or understanding of Jesus Himself, OR His Mission, OR what He is really all about as being ONE WITH THE FATHER and with THE HOLY SPIRIT. Furthermore: if you REJECT Yeshua as The Messiah-Redeemer: **you have REJECTED GOD’S own appointed means of redemption, salvation, and forgiveness**. – *that* is what is at stake here: make no mistake about it.
* John 3:36; and 8:24-58-59 *
Scripture says ,” Deut.10:12 And now, O Israel, what does Yahweh your God ask of you but to fear Yahweh your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the LORD’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good? Scripture doesn’t say God want you to accept a son of God as God and serve that son of God. Can you serve two maters? Jesus says,”You cannot serve two masters”. In the words of Jesus you cannot serve Yahweh and Jesus. Whom do you serve? If you tell both are not two different Gods they are one, then are you telling God remained dead for three days in a tomb?
Jesus, the Man {THE SON OF MAN} was tortured and died: spending three days in the grave before His resurrection. … JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, – The God-Man Messiah, DID NOT DIE in either His soul OR His Spirit. – He remained one with THE FATHER & WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT in both Time & Eternity. HIS ACTUAL DEITY & SPIRIT NEVER died. – those who attempt to say otherwise do not understand what ACTUALLY happened. – His Spirit & His perfect Soul *was* for a short period separated from his body. – that is the important distinction. He died an atoning, vicarious death: and THERE is the very heart of the Gospel Message. … whether received or rejected.
You have not yet received a GREATER revelation that we were a Son of God before Jesus and are Chilren of God without Jesus (OUR Father in Heaven, not just Jesus’). That one can be One with God without first worshipping an idol. In fact, idolatry is the greatest sin against one’s Father in heaven and keeps you from having a direct and TRUE relationship with God. Rejection of a supposed intermediary (some even say a fictional one or at least one presented to us through very error-filled, contradictory text with a history that lacks much integrity – the writings of men who follow the traditions of man), is not rejection of God. If the Holy Spirit has already been revealed to you, the intermediary is no longer essential. If one is still on the “path”, still following “The Way”, then one has not yet arrived at the Goal, The Destination, One’s Father. One is still lost, not truly redeemed, still the prodigal son.
Some like the gospel according to John, but they seldom ask why it so often contradicts 3 other gospels. Many say it was written last, but then it should be less disagreeable with those who spoke “nothing but the truth” earlier. Some early church leaders considered it as heretical, not canonical. Some said Tertullian wrote it in the mid-2nd century c.e. Tertullian supposedly was a pagan philosopher (a “semi-Gnostic(?)”, “neo-Platonist”(?), which may be why he opens with the Logos and sees Jesus as royalty and not as a poor, humble man) who converted to Christianity and then supposedly returned later to paganism.
The biggest misunderstanding comes when people don’t understand we’ll all eventually become One with God (not in one lifetime as souls become “ripe” at different times). That’s why Jesus could say, “God and I are One.” I can say God, Jesus, and I are now one since the I Am has been reached. And so forth. Another misunderstanding most can’t grasp is when Jesus said the Holy Spirit will teach us much. We must walk the path Jesus walked. We can’t pray Jesus to take all our sins away. We must overcome and walk the path Jesus walked. Many of the ones becoming ripe and ready for harvest are a fraction of the percentage of the Chabad Lubavitcher s.
Angela- one of the problems with Kabbalah (especially with the new-age variety) is that some of it’s teachings contradicts Torah (see several articles and references at mesora.org). It is too mystical and too speculative; slightly removed from the day to day reality of living on earth. And although, you got to where you are at today through your view of Jesus, that doesn’t work for other believers in Jesus (either today and especially not in the past). And “Jesus’s walk” is not a mandatory path for others, especially for those who already KNOW God without Jesus. But when many Christians say the “holy spirit” talks to them, they are led by their own carnal minds. There is a problem there because what is their will becomes God’s will (they in effect replace God with themselves or at least replace God with their particular view of Jesus). If their personal plans succeed, then God agreed with them and they “could not have failed”. But if they had difficulties or if they did fail (or sin)(or other people think their plan was a stupid or even an un-Godly plan), God still supposedly agreed with them, but the “devil” or “demons) caused them to fail. They don’t believe in Unity; they are docetists, they believe in a duality (bad god vs. good god) that is more based on Zorasterianism or Greek philosophy, rather than on Torah of the Hebrew bible. God is the Creator of both earth & flesh (what dualists say is from or of the “bad god”) and Creator of heaven & spirit.
I’ve never studied Kabbalah–never been interested, but Jesus led me directly to the Zohar, and we’ve interpreted it well. The path Jesus walked can’t be walked by some–it depends on what part we were made in the beginning. Jesus has to interview and take sins away. The entire Bible fits together like a jig-saw puzzle, so we individually get what we need. What works for one (part) won’t work for another. Many, many times it is us, but we all have a portion of God within. This oneness with God is what can be worshiped. The essence of God can be worshiped, but not his revelations. This is where many people fail. Some go as far to say the god/devil is our higher/lower nature, and when it is we ourselves–then it is God (However I know there is a higher power although these people aren’t wrong either). When we all arrive, there is nothing mystical about it. It is only a natural occurrence. If we obey our conscience and our hearts, we can’t go wrong. I admire your wisdom.
My main point was that there are some people who “preach” to those who have already stood “at the mountain” and maybe have already “seen the promised land”, that they should go “back to Egypt” and start all over again with a “new general”, a different “Moses” who has a better and a easier way, a “shortcut”. But it was that same rebellious nature, that caused those who wanted a shortcut the first time around, to become “lost” in the desert to wander for 40 years. I was never one who wanted to “go back to Egypt”, but there were those who had tried to persuade me to go down a few dead-end paths. I see some of them still hopefully walking to the mirage.
As we overcome, I’m not sure we could go back to Egypt. I get perturbed when people who’ve just walked a little up the road tell me how wrong I am, when, in actually, they haven’t traveled as far; therefore, they can’t see.
Daniel Paul K- You had a small typo, Psalm 78 instead of 75. There may be a couple of problems with Matthew 13:35. The Psalm is not really from a prophet (at least none named). It is more of a teaching historical narrative. Closer to wisdom teaching and somewhat of a historical re-interpration. It also appears to be a decree to the people/audience (some of whom, like the Ephraimites, were lax in holding on to the lessons learned from their history, plus they were not keeping the commandments) that they must remember to teach what they already know to the children so that the lessons of the past are not forgotten. These were known things, not unknown secret teachings. Of course, that is not the way the gentile NT wants to present it. Some Christian bibles (or the author of Matthew) misinterpret (take out of context) the first couple of lines of the Psalm. My JPS Tanakh is clearer; there are no “dark sayings”, riddles, or secret mysteries. These things are known by the people and they must teach them. As for parables, they are not meant to conceal but rather to explain more complex (usually spiritual) things in more simple, common day-to-day terms or analogies. Since I am familiar with raising animals and growing crops, I find some of Jesus parables easy to understand. They use analogies I might use if I were to teach or preach a sermon.
Jesus cleansing the temple? Mark gives us one version. Some think the author of Mark writes simply, but he is perhaps the most skilled NT writer. But the author of Mark is also “into” mysteries and “secret teachings”. One technique he uses, is to nest a pair of related parables (puts one parable or event/story totally inside the middle of another parable or event/story). The one parable explains or adds to the meaning of the other parable. The story/sign of a tree that doesn’t bear fruit, because it is not the natural God-given season for it to, encapsulates the story of Jesus going to cleanse the temple (of Herodian & Roman “contamination”). The tree doesn’t bear fruit for Jesus (actually Jesus fails because his prayer doesn’t yield fruit or he lacks God’s approval). Jesus then goes to the temple, his fathers house, to cleanse it. But, again he fails and leaves a bigger “mess” than there was before Jesus came to “clean up”. His power is wilting/dying. Jesus & the disciples leave going past the tree Jesus cursed and see it is wilting/dying. Jesus said the tree should be cut up & thrown in the fire & destroyed. In a few days, Jesus is cut-off and dead in a dead tree (cut down). His followers? One by one they were cut down (thrown into the fire). The temple wasn’t cleansed, it was burned & destroyed. Some said if it was not for the deluded messianic’s and zealots, the temple would have remained standing. That is not the real reason (historically) but it is one interpretation of Mark’s parables. The false messianics (including Jesus’s followers who were expecting Jesus to come back soon, if a Jesus existed) didn’t bear fruit, because it was not the “right season” to bear fruit. God did not approve of their actions. God had not yet sent Elijah. God has not sent a messiah. There have been many false messiahs. In Christianity, in almost every generation, there is some prominent preacher who claims they see the signs and they predict the “end of the world”, “the end times” . Like Jesus, they failed, for it is not the right season, not the right messenger or “cleanser”.
Naaria You say ,”Jesus said the tree should be cut up & thrown in the fire & destroyed. In a few days, Jesus is cut-off and dead in a dead tree (cut down). His followers? One by one they were cut down (thrown into the fire). The temple wasn’t cleansed, it was burned & destroyed.”
I would like to repeat what i said earlier “In fact Jesus said nothing new. All the things he told to the Jews were formerly told to them by their prophets and their forefathers ” Jesus was telling the same thing Daniel told to the Jews. “4:14 He called in a loud voice: ‘Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. 4:15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field. ” You seems to be very wise and reasonable, why do you fail to understand what Jesus meant?
Dan 4 is about a dream by the “Babylonian” King Nebuchanezzar, the enemy of Israel, or the Jews and of the God of Israel. Daniel interpreted the dream to mean that the tree was the King himself & he would be cut down, unless he repented and stop his oppression of the poor people, Israel. He failed to, so he was cut down. The symbolism of that tree could in no way represent or be applied to Israel or to the Jews. Neither then nor later. A portion of his dream could be used as a symbol of Caesar and the Roman empire however.
Many people, including Christians or Christian scholars, will have a problem with your idea that Jesus said nothing new. Or else there is no need for much of Jesus story. You will find that Rabbis will have little argument with the “old” things of Jesus’ teachings, but they do not see much good in his new teachings which contradict Tanakh. Some of the parables of Jesus are similar to some in the Mishnah or Talmud. But the NT twists or corrupts the meaning and the ending of those teachings. For instance, there is a Jewish legend of a hungry zealot leader and his men coming to a tree that has no fruit on it. He prays and fruit appears on it. When hungry Jesus sees a tree and he goes to it in order to eat from it (although it is not a season for figs to be on a tree), but it won’t bear fruit for him nor his men. So he curses a tree, an object incapable of thought or will. Curses what can not sin. Or a tree that actually is doing at that time what God, the Creator, the Father, intended it to do in that season. You could say that Jesus curses a “tree” that is “obeying the commandments of God”. A tree that in the future could have been a blessing to people from God. As a fig tree it was a symbol for God’s “tree of life” or Torah.
Naaria You say that the symbolism of that tree could in no way represent or be applied to Israel or to the Jews. But Jeremiah says,” 16 The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm he will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken. 17 The LORD Almighty, who planted you, has decreed disaster for you, because the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done evil and provoked me to anger” 19 I had been like a gentle lamb led to the slaughter; I did not realize that they had plotted against me, saying, “Let us destroy the tree and its fruit; let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name be remembered no more.”
Are you pretending you were not aware that symbolism of Tree do not suit Israel or Jews?
Are not able to visualize the 60 lacks Jews who were marching to the gas chamber like sheep for slaughter?
Sorry one correction:- Are you not aware or are you pretending that symbolism of “Tree” suits to Israel. ? Are you forgetting 60 lacks Jews were led to gas chambers like sheep for Slaughter?
Not all, if any, situations and events in history are predetermined “scripts” for all, or even any, future events. There is also a danger when employing symbolism or when allegorizing. And there is a difference between “something is like” and “something is”. Symbols about an object aren’t “the reality of that object’. When we take an analogy “too far”, we don’t get closer to truth, we can get closer to lies, deception or self-delusions. Sometimes, instead of looking for similarities between 2 things (or bible verses), we should look for the differences between the things (or verses). There is an intended meaning for a verse of scripture; it’s literal sense or true, plain meaning. When you use that verse as an analogy (or a word as a symbol), you automatically move away from that truth or other truths. You can take the words out of context and instead of telling a truth, you may use the words to support a lie. As Jews have seen for over 2000 years , the answer to their critics and to the scriptural arguments against their beliefs, usually lies within a few words or several verses from their opponents “proof”.
There are all sorts of “trees” out there and they can be used as symbols for all sorts of different, even contradictory ideas. Daniel did not speak to the Jews, he spoke to king Nebuchanezzar about the king’s dream and interpreted the tree as being the king himself. And what Daniel spoke, came true months later. Israel wasn’t that tree, but who knows about the future. Of course, that would contradict a whole lot of the words of most of the Biblical prophets. Trees? In Jeremiah 12:1-4, Jeremiah accuses God of planting and protecting those “evil trees”. Many Christians & scholars agree that the barren tree that Jesus curses is the “law” or the Tree of Torah; obsolete and not bearing fruit. Paul also teaches that the Torah must be replaced with a new torah. But the “fruit” of the Torah tree, would have to be the Jews or what Jews believe What Jesus curses here is not the fruit, but a living fig tree, which would be God’s Word. On the other hand, Jews aren’t the fruit, they are ones who eat the fruit. But that is not the only fig tree and not the fruit tree in town. The wise ones preserved the fruit, like jelly in a jar or dried them out. And then it doesn’t matter if the fig tree only produces fruit in late summer or fall. Nut trees? The “bread of life” is wheat and a grass, not a tree.
Back to Jeremiah. Why is God angry at Israel & also Judah? In Chapter 11, we see in at least 4 verses, the specific charge of sacrificing to and worshipping of “other gods” and baal. And they are being lead by the many non-Israelite in and surrounding Israel. But God still considers Israel and Judah as his beloved. And God takes them back soon. But in 12:16, we see that if those who taught His people to follow baal, will repent and follow the Jews and the God of the Jews instead, they also will be “saved”. There is hope for missionaries and idolaters. Sheep? God is the Shepherd. Jeremiah considers himself to be like a sheep led to slaughter (although he doesn’t die). And in Chap 12, it is Jeremiah who prays that his idolatrous, baalist enemies will be led by God like sheep to slaughter.
Naaria,
I appreciate your ability to debate. You say “Christians & scholars agree that the barren tree that Jesus curses is the “law” or the Tree of Torah” But scripture does not support their views. Daniel says,” Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. 4:15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field.” And Isaiah says,” But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.” (Isaiah.6:13.)
Then how do you fail to see both of them and Jesus are speaking it about Israel? I have no wonder why you fail, it is also written in the Scripture “ ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’. Lord how long? Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, the houses are without a man, the land is utterly desolate”. (Isa.6:9-12) 2000 years Israel cities laid waste without inhabitant, the houses remained without Jewish men and the land remained utterly desolate. So nobody can blame you for up to now you didn’t realize all those prophecies were about Israel. But now that period of un-understating is over because the houses are filled with Jewish men and the cities are again alive and flourishing. Is it not time for us to understand words of God in the right perspective shedding our egos?
DPK- I am not the one who is promoting a theory. Nor am I defending a theory or “ego”. If you believe that Christian views are not supported by scripture, you need to “preach” to them. And when you say “scriptures”, it is hard to determine just what scriptures you mean and which ones can be ignored. You have a faith in Jesus and yet at the same time dismiss some prophecies which are very clear to any reader of the NT (not just Chistians you disagree with). My advice is to first realize that all Christians do not have the same view on most issues. From what I’ve seen so far, you offer little that is new to either Jew or Christian. Don’t take that personally, but your views are similar to views of many Christians who have begun to alter or adjust their beliefs of Jews/Israel (yet not of Judaism, per se) since they were not annihilated in WW2, a nation of Israel was created a few years later, and they have had victories and have not suffered defeat despite the strength and determination of their neighbors many of whom prefer a military solution (& perhaps a “final solution”) over a peaceful one.
I am not all that ignorant of either the prophets of the Tanakh (or the “OT”) or of the writings of the NT. I just place more “stock” and faith in the prophets of “pre-Jesus” Israel, than in Jesus’ or Paul. If those prophets were wrong, then Jesus is also false. But if Jesus is false, nothing at all changes with the prophets of Israel. And in that case no one should hear Jesus, much less believe him. I just don’t see Jesus in events of the last 80 years or so. The Jews weren’t being punished by “Jesus” (unless he hates enlightenment & tolerance between Christians and Jews and he favored the Nazis?). It wasn’t Jesus who lead the Jews to Israel (unless he favored the many secular Zionist Jews and also many religious Jews who understandably might have a great mistrust and ambivalence toward, and some might even harbor resentment against, Jesus followers or “Jesus”. Jesus or “Yeshua”/Yehoshua followers favor NT prophecies & “end time” scenarios. And either ignore the prophecies of the Jewish prophets or alter/re-interpret them to fit the NT Jesus.
Naaria you say, I just don’t see Jesus in events of the last 80 years or so. I told you Jesus never claimed he is the messiah. Jesus questioned the Jewish tradition that a messiah will come the lineage of David. Jesus told the Jews do not believe anybody who claim he is the messiah.
For the last 2000 years you didn’t believe Jesus. Every generation of Jews expected a messiah in their generation. But all the Jews will agree on one thing that the messiah didn’t come. Is it not what Jesus said? It took 1800 years after the death of Jesus that some of the Jews began to think that it is meaning less to expect a Messiah to come to take them Back to Israel. They formed an association in the name of Zionism. They began to search their Kingdom. They didn’t knew they were obeying a Jew whom they rejected 2000 years back. That Jew was Jesus, he told the Jews
” do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.”
If the Zionists had worried about what shall we eat, what shall we wear, would they have returned to Palestine the desert land? They would have gone to USA where all the things were plenty. When the Jews searched their kingdom they got it and along with it they got shelter, security, dignity, food, cloth, education and employment etc. Now you are telling “I just don’t see Jesus in events of the last 80 years or so”. It just shows how ignorant you are about Jesus and his prophecies.
Would you please examine my book ” Hidden truth in Gospels revealed” and would you please give me a constructive criticism?
So, all the Jews who did (or do) believe that Jesus was (or is) messiah were (or are) wrong? And it was all the ones who did not believe in Jesus (and some who did not even believe in God), who were the “true followers” of Jesus? Had they all (every one of them) believed in Jesus, then they would have all been annihilated by now (you might be right there?)? So, there is a “perfect Israel” and a “perfect” world today despite, or perhaps because of disbelief? Those who followed didn’t have to because either way Jesus would do what he wanted to do? So, there actually was no need for any of the proofs in the gospels, or no need for any written gospels (because he already spoke once?), or really not even a need for Jesus to come even once? No need for signs or miracles and no need for a crucifixion nor a resurrection? You are finally right there, because the prophets never required them. Because, according to you, the leader (messiah) who led best was the leader who didn’t lead. Mission accomplished although all Jews and all non-Jews agree that the mission was not yet accomplished.
Parable of the two sons will give the answer for your questions. 28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ 29 ” ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go. 31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?
Jews represent the first son, they said to Jesus we won’t do as you request. The second son represents Christians. I hope you can grasp the truth.
There was actually a third son who said he would go (he obeyed & did not rebel, which was the father’s will & one of God’s commandments) and he did go. And there was a fourth son who said he would not go and he did not go.
Now in Matt 21, “priests & elders” (representing the stereotype of “The Jews”) did agree with you that it was the 1st son who did the father’s will. But Jesus rebukes “the Jews” immediately and said that they were the disobedient son. Jesus said the prostitutes and the Roman tax collectors were the ones who believed (the “Jews” said no to John and “seeing” John’s believers they still “rejected” Jesus as well). According to Matthew’s Jesus, it is the “prostitutes & tax collectors” (Christians & gentiles) who will go into the kingdom of god first (as in other places in the bible, the 1st born son loses the inheritance & is replaced by the 2nd son). According to Matthew and other NT writers (in many places), the Jews are rejected as sons and the Church replaces the Jews & Israel. Can’t you see how the Church (or Jesus) through the “Greek-Roman New Testament” has replaced Jews with Christians; replaced Israel with the Church, which is the “body of christ”? Ain’t me saying that. I’m just a reporter.
Christians are those who have washed their sins in the blood of their Jesus Christ. How can you say they are sinful people like Tax collectors and prostitutes? Whereas Jews still remain sinful people in the eyes of Christians.
Jesus says,” Do not fear, little flock, for it is your father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom”.Be honest and tell who is the little flock? Christians or Jews?
Jesus used those words on those who already believed (of course not all believed). And by trying to make me a liar, or one who is ignorant, you also called Jesus a liar, or one who was ignorant) Now it was you who earlier said Christians were the 2nd son who said they would go but didn’t. Why did you say that “the washed” did not please their father? Jesus only said 2 sons, only 2 categories to lump ALL people into. Knowing that would lead to contradictions or absurdities, I was wise enough to give you 2 additional “sons” or 2 other categories even before I chose between son 1&2. See there were Jews who believed & Jews who didn’t (this was true both before & after Jesus died). It was you who keep all Jews (in past days -before or after Jesus died- or in present days) somehow believe that Jews (not matter whether they believed Jesus or not) were the first son. By trying to keep things simple (2 sons only, no matter whether they were or are believers or not, whether sinners or not, whether past or present, b.c.e. or c.e. (or b.c. & a.d.)), you make yourself look like a fool. You speak (or write) before thinking. You come to your conclusion before looking at all of the beginning facts or evidence or scriptures. You hold on to a theory and then wind up twisting scripture in order to fit it into the theory. You can’t see the trees because of the forest out there. On the other hand and at other times, you can’t see the forest because of all those trees. And you won’t back up and you won’t back out of the trap you catch your ownself in. AGAIN, I seen the traps laid out before me, so I then try to go around them rather than jump into the trap as you do and then try to wiggle my way out (or try to act like there was no trap). So if Jesus presents you with 2 options, don’t be afraid (or blind enough) to ask, “what about all the other options?”. Answer his questions with your own questions, just like he does when he is asked a question first. Jesus looks wise to those who choose to remain fools.
Naaria one more thing:- Moses also says,”The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. 7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers “
your Q: Jesus says,” Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom”. Be honest and tell who is the little flock? Christians or Jews? >>> Answer: Jews AND Gentiles who have been redeemed by the Blood of the Passover Lamb and sanctified by the Spirit of GOD. … as I have said before: IT IS GOD’S GRACE and election: NOT race or religion that saves. race & religion often gives birth to LOTS of pride and self-righteousness that (mostly) looks like filthy rags in the sight of a Holy GOD. … GRACE brings *forgiveness, *redemption by way ransom-PAID, *mercy, *transformation via love, forgiveness, grace, and the Spirit of GOD within, *impartation of righteous and enabling by the Spirit of GOD within, *and living a life that is well pleasing to GOD by way of genuine love and gratitude. – this includes self-denial out of love for The King and The Kingdom.
Naaria you say:- I was wise enough to give you 2 additional “sons”
Christians claim they have washed their sin in the blood of their Jesus Christ and the law of Yahweh was removed on the cross. They denied validity of Torah,doing away with circumcision, the Sabbath. And they think they are more wise than the sinful people who remain Jews. But scripture says,” Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight .” They have rejected the law of Yahweh and despised the words of the holy one of Israel. ( Isaiah.5::21,24.)
A lot of our daily problems are caused because people just don’t think; most of the rest are caused because they think they think. There is a difference between wisdom and smartness/intelligence. The smart person (ego-centered) can figure a way out of the mess they got themselves into; the wise person (God or humanity centereded) tries to avoid getting into the mess, the trap, to begin with. There is a wisdom of Torah; but as you are slowly, increasingly beginning to see, it is not what is called wisdom in gnosticism, greek or pagan philosophy or Christian theology. Often wisdom is nothing more than plain-seeing, using common sense. The educator gets one to examine the subject in more detail, more depth, more breadth, all sides. The ones who want to merely persuade, tries to simplify or limit the issue to rarely more than 2 sides; either true or false, either 1 side is all right & always right and the other sides is all wrong and always wrong.
You see & admit there is a difference, a separation, between Torah and the NT. You see & admit a separation between Christians and Torah. But Jesus isn’t taught in the Torah; Christians see and find Jesus in the NT. They see what the NT says, what Jesus does and it is that which makes them Christians. If you separate Christianity from Jesus, there is no Jesus. If you separate Jesus from the beliefs of Christians, there would be no Christians. If you separate the NT from Torah or Tanakh, the Torah & Tanakh still stands and more strongly. If there was no Jesus, the Torah & Tanakh would still stand strong and God would not be changed at all.
One thing I had wanted to mention yesterday was that one can’t separate the “Christ of the Christians” from the gospels of Jesus. Christ is in the story of Jesus before he died. If Christian scholars are correct (and I don’t agree with them), all the letters with Christ in them were written before the gospels with the man Jesus in them. Which means the “Jewish” Jesus came after the Christians claims of a Christ. It helps to understand what the NT meant by Judaizers, which means there were people trying to make the gentile Christ (and his blood) Jewish or more acceptable to Jews.
No. Christians say that **the curse and condemnation of the Law was removed by the atonement, redemptive sufferings of Christ.** WE ARE REDEEMED, … and living by the Spirit of Truth and Agape Love. – THIS INCLUDES VALIDATION and “observing the Moral Laws of Yahweh.” – anyone who says differently HAS DISTORTED what MOST Christians certainly teach & uphold.
You say :- But Jesus isn’t taught in the Torah; Christians see and find Jesus in the NT.
Your both views are wrong. Christians see foreshadow of Jesus in every word or in every thing in Torah. They see Jesus in ” her seed: He shall bruise you head, and you shall bruise his heel. From the binning to end they see Jesus in Torah. Bu the question is whether their views are right or wrong? In opposite to the Christian view Jews doesn’t see Jesus any where in the Torah. That also is wrong.
And Jesus says,” If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” Jesus claims He is the prophet about whom Mses wrote “15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.” 17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”
See Jesus doesn’t claim he is the messiah or son of God, Jesus claims he is the prophet about whom Moses wrote . This seems to be truth and right. All other views about Jesus are wrong. The days are not far away that Jews and Christians will realize their follies.
Daniel
But Jesus is not TAUGHT in the Torah. No more than the messianic rooster. And only a fool or a liar, would make your 2nd statement. Foreshadowing? Do you or do they know what a shadow is? It is not the real object. It is a blocking of Light (truth), it is a diminishing of Light. It alters “the reality” depending on how you move around the subject. A dream is “seen” & the simple one believes it is real, but you can alter it as you wish or wake up & kill it for better or worse. A hallucination is “seen ” as real, a higher reality. A mirage is seen, but there is no lake there. It foreshadowed a lake, but no water exists there in the shadow. The foreshadowing deceives the one dying of thirst, they run exhausted to dust. A check forger hopes you see his lie as truth; the better the forgery/lie the more the liar profits & the more the victim is hurt. The dictator lies and says what it is that you should see. His propagandists write such beautiful lies for you to read as truth. To read your own words into the Torah (or for a C’ian to read their words) is to call God a fool for not using your words.
I thought you was smart, but I am beginning to wonder. You may want to lookup
The meanings of such words as christ, messiah, prophet. You may want to study the history of the text of the NT. And before saying “jesus never said- “, you may want to look in some other books. You may want to watch your ego. “This seems to be truth … All other views about Jesus are wrong…. Jews and Christians will realize their follies.”. You the great prophet against them all. You try to separate yourself from other christians, other jesus believers, but you say what they say.
And I don’t believe you know who Jews are, outside of what Christian texts tell you. You seem to have a lack of Torah study. For one thing, Torah study is not trying to find texts that agrees with what you believe. But, studying each word, each line in detail. Looking at the verses from all angles, why does the text read this way instead of that way. Read it like a detective search for clues or like a researcher runs lab tests over & over again slighty different each time, to find the cure for cancer once & for all. If something doesn’t work or it makes no sense, look at it from a different angle. Let the words tell you what they mean, because you can’t ask the original author. Like your example of “her seed”. First you quoted the verses wrong, you should have done a copy & paste. Then it is not the serpent that strikes first. And if this is Jesus, why was his first strike unsuccessful, only a bruise? Or the way it reads, Jesus is the serpent? Get a few good study bibles, especially when examining what the NT says the OT says. You’ll find Matthew gets far from the meaning of the original texts. And Paul’s quotes are often so far from accurate, that you wonder if he thought that no one would every check his writing. They didn’t have electronic study tools 1900 years ago, nor paperback or hardcover bibles on a shelf in every home. Paul’s audience were usually all illiterate or had no scrolls if they could read.
Naaria,
As per dictionary ” foreshadow” means to be a sign of (something to come) indicate or suggest beforehand.I do not claim I have great command in English language,
You have advised me : For one thing, Torah study is not trying to find texts that agrees with what you believe. But, studying each word, each line in detail. Looking at the verses from all angles, why does the text read this way instead of that way. Read it like a detective search for clues or like a researcher. You are telling the write thing. I do not claim I am a Torah scholar. But I know about the hair splitting interpretation of Torah Jeremiah has said,” ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
I borrow the words of prophet Daniel,” I have no more wisdom than any one who is living, but as a human being I have the right to express my views. It is from the great author MAX I Dimont I studied that it is ideas that leading human beings towards progress, I am presenting a challenging Idea, learned orthodox Jews wanted to eliminate Jesus not for claiming he is the messiah or son of God but questioning the Jewish belief that an individual would come as the Messiah and teaching the Jews not to believe any individual who claims he is the messiah.
Jesus told the Jews no messiah will come but who or what will come is the kingdom of god. Jesus asked the Jews to remain prepared to accept the kingdom since it is not known when it will come.The Jews who wanted a Messiah failed to understand the message of Jesus rejected Jesus saying he is a failed messiah. Some of the Jews who found their messiah in Jesus interpreted the words of God in such a way to make others also to believe Jesus is the Christ and son of God.
Jews were looking more for a Kingdom of God than for a messiah, because a messiah is only an anointed one, a messenger, a leader, a tool to bring about that Kingdom on Earth. Those who rejected Jesus are the ones who have remained prepared. Those who accepted and expected it soon, died disappointed. Those who except it now, are waiting for a thief in the night, or to go up as smoke, or they going chasing here and there and back again wherever they hear he has come. It is God that one should be focused on and not a man not a messenger, because after all, no messiah is really promised by the prophets. The messiah is midrash. It is said Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel. As Len says above, only his sheep would know his voice, so there was no rejection by Jews (who were not a part of the “lost sheep”). And for 100+ years, there were few of those “lost sheep” who heard, unless they were the Gentiles, who became the Christian church. The kingdom hasn’t come to them either, as they follow the traditions of men (Roman emperor decrees they worship on Sun-god’s day instead of the Sabbath. Such a voice would be worth rejecting, because those who heard aren’t worthy of any kingdom.
And why do you put faith in the “lying pens of the scribes” as you describe them. Now, we can see how the NT and most, if not ALL, of words of Jesus was corrupted. We can see the texts and see the changes and the forgeries. We can see in the NT, that Paul complained about forgeries (so put faith in which letters?) by fellow believers in Jesus. We can see in the NT, itself that early Jesus believers could believe such things as, “Jesus was not a man but only a spirit”, that they spoke with authority that which was false, and it was “Judaizers” who were trying to make Jewish what was not Jewish.
Naaria Is it your opinion “It is God that one should be focused on and not a man not a messenger, because after all, no messiah is really promised by the prophets”. This is what Jesus told and this is what I also say. Then where do we differ?
You say “Now, we can see how the NT and most, if not ALL, of words of Jesus was corrupted” I agree with you. We are aware the air is polluted. But what we do, we breath the polluted air, our lungs have the capacity to receive the Oxygen which we want and exhale the unwanted things.
Why can’t we read and study New testament and receive whatever good is in it for the benefit of Judaism ?
Jesus and apostles created a new religion which made Judaism unattractive for Gentiles and thereby helped Jews to remain as Jews while they were among the gentiles without assimilating in the Gentile Ocean.
We know that when we breathe air pollution, we breath in less oxygen and we take in and keep- and maybe store – in our bodies much of the pollutants. And, lead & etc, can get us sick & even kill us. Millions of children suffer because of that pollution. Even hear of carbon monoxide poisoning? The oxide tells you there is oxygen in it; it can cause you to be drowsy and sleepy (to God’s word) and it can kill you. It deprives you of the right amount, that God wants you to have, and it can kill you. You can find some good food in a garbage dumpster near a restaurant or a grocery store. Some people have little choice to find their daily bread in tn between the garbage. Thank God, you do not need to. There is beauty and some truth in buddha as well. But that truth is not Truth. We don’t need to be repulsed by something to keep pure or to love what is not disgusting. Hypocrites (heretics, idolatorists) in Israel prayed, even sacrificed to God. God rejected their unholy acts and prayer although there were a few nice words in their prayers to God. Many Jews accepted, for personal reasons or because they were forced to or die. The became lost sheep. Their descendants may have lost any and all connection to the God of Israel, except as YOU call it, become contaminated, became Gentiles & reject God. Some same they can be grafted back in or break your legs (branch), you’ll heal and will be able to walk again, someday. What a glorious day, when you no longer have pain. Remain pure & love God in a pure way, and stay away from contamination unless you are stronger or have adequate protective gear like your rescuers, your doctors who will heal your condition, your disease.
See, on this site, you will see a few ex-Jews who accepted Jesus-“Yeshua”. But you will see more Jews who remained “pure”, even when reading the NT. You will also see a few Jews who “played around” with Jesus, were “rescued”, and now have come back to the Original God. You will also see several gentiles who were taught Jesus but respect the beliefs of Jews. You will also see a few gentiles who were taught Jesus from early childhood, who no longer have any use for Jesus in their lives. They don’t hate “Jesus” nor Christians. They no longer think as a child and so they put away the childish ideas of God that they once had. To become adult sons or daughters of God instead of worshipping another son, once a man so the fable goes, instead of God.
Naaria ,
In the above words your wisdom shines like a sun. Now I admire you the most because I see you as one among the Jews who remain pure. But I am amazed why you fail to see this is the thing Jesus wanted.
See Jesus foretold :- “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who endures to the end will be saved” (Mt.24:9-13) He who endures to the end will be saved means who remain Jews in spite of the sufferings, persecution, killings etc.Can you deny the truth that Jews were hated by all nations in the name of Jesus saying Jews are the Christ killers ? Still you deny Jesus was not a prophet.
And you say now Jesus has no use for many. Are you aware you are telling the same thing Jesus foretold some 2000 years back ? Jesus told ,””It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.”.
You must not forget one thing, it was not Jesus or Gentiles who made Jesus the Messiah and son of God, it was some Jews.If Jews did a wrong thing Jews have the moral responsibility to correct it.
If your wrong interpretation of Bible made it possible to make Jesus the Messiah and son of God, you have the moral responsibility to give the right interpretation and reveal to the world who Jesus was.
1. Researchers have found no verse (except 2 or 3 and for a few mis-quotes) that Jesus in the NT spoke which were original. Quoting previous scripture might make one a teacher but not a prophet. 2. There was anti-semitism, anti-Jewishness long before Jesus (see Philo’s and Josephus’s and other Jewish writings before & after Jesus. There is no evidence of a Jesus or follower’s in the war from about 66-70 c.e. or in 117 c.e. in the diaspora or in bar Kochba’s revolt. The Romans, especially Vespasian and Titus, did not wage a war against Jews because of Jesus or his followers. 3. Jews were also hated and persecuted by peoples and nations who are not followers of Jesus and who also were anti-Christian. And many Christians did not or do not hate or persecute Jews. Many Christians do not hate Jews because of Jesus (some “love” & “support” Israel because of their belief in Jesus. 4. Many Christians (for much of the last 1900 years) see or have seen themselves as the ones who are persecuted (with Jesus) by non-Christians because of THEIR belief in Jesus. 5. Since Jesus was the doctor, as you put it, only the sick would need him. Those who reject him, therefore, are the healthy ones who have no use for him. Especially, as you suggest, Jesus is the disease that spreads the hatred of Jews (that would be called the anti-prophet, not a prophet since a prophet’s mission is to save not to cause more, unnecessary hatred and misery. More like a “devil’. 6. And according to the NT (the only place you would even know about a Jesus) and the early Church leaders, it was non-Jews who made him prophet/messiah. Some Christians argued whether they should or should not allow Jews to join the church and become Jesus followers. Gentiles knew what prophets were (the NT & the roman world were filled with them), but they did not know what the Jewish concept of a “messiah” was until the distorted image of one as Jesus. 7. Who said my “interpretation” was wrong and if it is how can I “give the right interpretation”? Of course, I am trying to reveal that Jesus in different ways, in different places. I don’t interpret, I see where others make logical and reasonable arguments and where others have “half-baked theories”. For every argument they may make, there is one or more you can make. If they say there are 300 “fulfilled prophecies”, you can show the error of each and then give them 600 “unfulfilled prophecies”. 8. Why do you believe i am Jewish and a “pure one” at that?
Naaria you ask me, Why do you believe i am Jewish and a “pure one” at that? You say ” Of course, I am trying to reveal that Jesus in different ways, in different places. I don’t interpret, I see where others make logical and reasonable arguments and where others have “half-baked theories”. But you never try to reveal Jesus as a prophet, and when I try to reveal Jesus was a prophet as he claimed it irritates you. That shows you are a pure Jew.
You say “Researchers have found no verse (except 2 or 3 and for a few mis-quotes) that Jesus in the NT spoke which were original”. You are inadvertently admitting Jesus was a prophet, see Jesus had foretold “”I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children”
Yahweh says,”I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals; and I will lay waste the towns of Judah so no one can live there.” And Jeremiah asks “What man is wise enough to understand this?And who is he to whom the mouth of the Lord has spoken, they he may declare it? Do you know who was that man who declared it to the Jews? It was Jesus who declared to the Jews that destruction of Jerusalem and Jerusalem temple is at the door. And as sign that it is going to happen Jesus told the Jews,” Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name saying,’I am the Christ’ and will deceive many”. Before the destruction of Jerusalem under the leadership of Peter many came taking the name Christians in the name of Jesus preaching “Jesus is the Christ and deceived many Jews” and the destruction of Jerusalem followed it. Still you and the scholars fail to see Jesus was really a prophet as he claimed, is it not an irony?
To you yes mean no and vice versa. When was I “irritated”? More like very much amused. I once believe Jesus was only a messenger, only a man, or a prophet. But that was once. Your still naive & in love with your own theories. You won’t be able to convince me of anything, because I spoke your words before. If you want advice, stop rejecting it. Stop taking verses out of context. The way to test your own theories is to put them to a rigorous test. Reject them, argue against them and see where they either fail or where they persist and are resilient.
Be challenged by those who disagree with you. You say jesus didn’t say he was a messiah? Go to the next chapter or the next or the previous gospel. Argue with people who will say things like what L Hummel just wrote on the latest of Rabbi B’s article. Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he is the Messiah (Jn 4:25-26). Jesus agreed with Peter that he is the Messiah and “Son of God” (Mt 16:15-17, Mk 8:29-30, Lk 9:20-21). Jesus told the high priest the same thing (Mk 14:61-62, Mt 26:63-64, Lk 22:70). Teach people who believe those things before trying to argue with those who disagree with those verses and more.
Naaria,
Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he is the Messiah (Jn 4:25-26) Jesus didn’t take “Messiah” in the sense a Savior as Jews and Christians mistook.. He took it as anointed one, means he is a prophet. Not an ordinary prophet, but a prophet like Moses as for told by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15-19. But the Jews do not still believe it.So Jesus says to you,”46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” (John5:46,47)
Jesus agreed with Peter that he is the Messiah and “Son of God” (Mt 16:15-17, Mk 8:29-30, Lk 9:20-21). Jesus told the high priest the same thing (Mk 14:61-62, Mt 26:63-64, Lk 22:70). In Mark and Luke Peter didn’t say “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” instead Peter only says ” You are the Christ ” Jesus didn’t agree to it, instead He strictly commanded them “You should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ”. If answer of Peter was ” You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus would have commanded them ” You should tell no one that He Jesus the Christ, the living son of God”
The answer Jesus gave to Peter in Mathew, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” is a gloss. It was not God who revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Messiah it was his brother Andrews. See ” Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (John 1:40-42)
And Jesus told generally to the Jews “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” ( Mt.18:18) and it was not told to Peter specifically as stated in Mathew.
You have advised me “Teach people who believe those things before trying to argue with those who disagree with those verses and more.” I told you I have written a different interpretation for New Testament to teach those people all these things.Nobody agrees to publish my work fearing what would be the response from Christians and orthodox Jews. That is why I seek your help to publish my work. Would you please help me?
Naaria, ( Please read this along with reply given below)
Jesus told the high priest the same thing (Mk 14:61-62, Mt 26:63-64, Lk 22:70)
Can you think a High priest will ask a question like ” Are you the Christ the son of God”?
Where does in the scripture it says Messiah is the son of God to ask such a question.
They asked Jesus “If you are the Christ, ” they said, “tell us.” Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, and if I asked you, you would not answer. (Luke 22:67,68)Why Jesus said ” if I tell you, You will not Believe me”.? Jesus says,”46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
And John didn’t mention High priest asked Jesus “Are you the Christ the son of God”? but says the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said.” (John 18:19-21)
Please read the reply given below along with this.
Was Jesus a Rabbi?
by David Bivin, Member of the Jerusalem School.
Published: 01-Jan-2004
David Bivin
To understand the full significance of Jesus being addressed “Rabbi,” one must know what a Jewish teacher of the first century was and how he functioned in that society.
By the time Jesus began his public ministry, he had not only received the thorough religious training typical of the average Jewish man of his day, he had probably spent years studying with one of the outstanding rabbis in the Galilee. Jesus thus appeared on the scene as a respected rabbi himself. He was recognized as such by his contemporaries, as passages in the New Testament illustrate:
And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he said, “Rabbi, what is it?” (Luke 7:40)
A lawyer asked him a question to test him: “Rabbi, what is the greatest commandment in the Torah?” (Matthew 22:35-36)
And behold, a [rich] man came up to him and said, “Rabbi, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?” (Matthew 19:16)
And someone in the crowd said to him, “Rabbi, order my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” (Luke 12:13)
And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Rabbi, rebuke your disciples.” (Luke 19:39)
Some of the Sadducees came up to him…and they asked him, saying, “Rabbi….” (Luke 20:27-28)
Note the diversity of those who addressed Jesus
You know that it you are reading “Rabbi” in the gospels you are reading a modern “Judaized” translation and not the best translation from the Greek. And if the text itself was not biased, Jesus would be called a Pharisee (or at times, a Sadduccee) or a “sage” or a “lawyer” as other Jews are called in your translation. He and his disciples would be called “the Jews”, if they were Jews.
And Jesus would be Joshua. There are a number of Jesuses, Joshuas, or Yehoshuas in Josephus’s works, but none that believers of the NT would want to call their man. Jonathan ben Zakki was born very close to where some believe Nazareth was supposed to be, but there is no indication that a Jesus was known. There were a few Yehoshuas and a Jose or 2 and a few Simon, etc in the Mishnah. But again they were quite different Rabbis from a NT Jesus. So if Jesus was a rabbi -a Pharisee – his teachings would be quite different, but unnoticeable from all other Jews or Rabbis. He impressed few, either positively or negatively. And none of the Romans or the many Gentiles in the Galilee, noticed him as a friend, a robber, a zealot, a rebel, an enemy, or a magic worker.
Dear Naaria,
You have not answered to my letter dated 17th February.
You wrote “there is no indication that a Jesus was known”. I agree that there is no official or private records to say Jesus in the Gospels ever lived. But can you deny the fact Gospels are written between first and third centuries?. And can you deny in the gospels the following prophesies are not ascribed to a Jesus ? And those prophesies have not fulfilled upon Jews?
Jesus foretold the Jews,” Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” (Mathew 5:10,11)
What is righteousness of Jews? Moses says,” if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” (Det.6:25)
Jews were persecuted throughout centuries because they remained as Jews trying to obey the commandments of their God. Can you refute this truth?
Jesus said to the Jews,” people will insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” (Mathew 5:10,11) I challenge you tell honestly this didn’t happen to the Jews during the last 2000 years ?
Jesus said to the Jews “All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue;in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you.” (John 16:1,4) I challenge you to tell honestly was it not the thinking or mentality of Christians when they killed Jews during the last 2000 years?
Jesus told to the Jews,” All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you Israel will not finish going through the cities of before the Son of Man comes” (Mathew 10:22,23) I challenge you to tell honestly Jews were not hated by all in the name of Jesus. I challenge you tell honestly to say when Jews were persecuted during the 2000 years you didn’t flee from cities to cities.
Jesus said,” “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” All other people on the earth have their own country to lay their heads. I challenge you to answer honestly to the question, Did you Jews have your own country to lay your head during the last 2000 Years?
Jesus told the Jews,” do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well “ (Mathew 6:31,31) For about 1840 years Jews waited for a messiah to come to establish their own kingdom. But no messiah came as foretold by Jesus. But some of the Jews returned to Palestine without worrying what shall we eat in the desert, what shall we wear and they searched their kingdom as advised by Jesus some 2000 years back and they found their kingdom. In their kingdom they have their own house, they have job, shelter, security food dress and everything they want. I challenge you to refute this didn’t happened to Jews?
If you have ears to hear let the words of Jesus ring loudly in your ears ,” “Do not be afraid,little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) .Don’t you feel there is some thing wrong about your understanding about Jesus.
Moses said,” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him” ( Det.18:22) That means if the things a prophet foretold in the name of Lord take place or happens as he foretold or proclaimed he is a prophet. Isn’t it?
Dan: One of the problems with the NT is that when its authors quote the OT, they often select verses that they might agree with, while they ignore the many others that contradict their beliefs. And they take those verses out of context, to make a point that is not supported by the simple, literal meaning of those verses. Ordinary narrative is distorted into a “prophecy”. And when that quote is used in their story, it magically becomes a “fulfilled prophecy’. If something is a “truth”, it does not need other sources to “fulfill it” or to “make it” a truth. You appear to commit similar errors. When you take out of context, something that was already taken out of context by others, you commit error on top of another error. You simplify reality” so much, that it becomes a “black & white” world, but there often is no boundary, no clear or consistent definition of your black or your white. It changes to fit your needs. You see similarities & correlation between things and then make them a cause-effect relationship, thereby committing 1 or more logical fallacies. Remember who the audience of your source text was. And who your source author was, what their philosophy was, and what argument they were trying to make. It has been shown that Jesus said virtually nothing new. So if he repeated texts that was simply reading, reciting, or preaching and not truly “prophesying”.
For example, you use Matt 5:10-11, which is spoken to a general audience (orally mostly to “Jews”, but read & believed & followed by many more non-Jews), but then you quote John (who disagrees often with the other gospel writers) who has Jesus speaking to his close disciples & followers and not to Jews in general (but indirectly to non-Jewish followers). So here “the Jews” are the enemies of John’s Jesus and followers. Here, Jews are the persecutors and Jesus & his few disciples (and millions of later followers, even those not rejecting the Torah) are the ones who are persecuted by the “Jews” or the “world”. John 16- 3, says they will do it because they have not known Jesus (but you can argue that the Jews do know the Father in this verse. Since, there is only 1 Creator or 1 Father, John calls God the “devil”).
But Jesus could be satan or the “devil”, since John 15:19 says “If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own”. A lot of the world loves Jesus as “their own”. And according to you, those who follow Jesus are evil (because they insult, persecute, & speak lies about Jews). In other words, you must believe Jesus is or is like Satan/devil who is the leader of evil people. And many followers of Jesus are the “least” because they are taught to discard and to disobey Torah and are much less righteous then the “Pharisees” and “the scribes” (who must reject such a teacher, as Jesus). Jesus seems to believe in some nonsensical and non-Biblical idea that only the persecuted get into the KOH (kingdom of Heaven). So, Jews should reject Jesus/Yeshua so that the world & followers of Yeshua will hate and persecute Jews and thereby the Jews will be rewarded in the KOH. And the Jew who stands against Jesus is among the “few” that you mentioned. Ironically, the true Jew (not those fake “Jews” in the book of Revelation who are “not Jews but say they are”) are the ones “saved” by Jesus because they are not “saved by Jesus”. False prophets are also prophets. False prophets can have power and lead ones astray with their “new”, nice sounding message. The Jewish prophets said reject the prophets that the world accepts; reject the gods of the nations that were not shown at Sinai. Those who did or do reject the “latter prophets”, are the “remnant”. So, Jesus is the “anti-God” or the “anti-prophet”. Your Jesus is like Balaam, the one who blesses Israel by cursing it. Raising Jews up by putting them down.
Quite a bit of the world hated Jews long before Jesus came along. And they can hate Jews without knowing Jesus. So the Jews did not need Jesus to be the primary coach of or cheerleader to the “anti-Jews”.
Narrai,
You are talking about Jesus the Christ and not about Jesus the Jew. You fail to see Jesus the Jew, you fail to listen Jesus the Jew and so that you fail to understand the message of Jesus the Jew. Jesus the Jew is the real Jesus but Jesus Christ is the making of Christian religion. It is not gentiles who made Jesus the Jew Jesus the Christ unfortunately it was some Jews who did it.Those Jews could do that by giving wrong interpretation for Bible Prophecies. Now you are very much confused so that you fail to distinguish between Jesus the Jew and Jesus the Christ.
When you are talking about followers of Jesus, you are not talking about followers of Jesus the Jew , you are talking about followers of Jesus the Christ. That is why you make wrong judgments about Jesus the Jew. How to differentiate Jesus the Jew and Jesus the Christ?
If you ask Jesus the Jew,”Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life? He will answer you,”If you want to enter life, obey the commandments”. Do you have doubt commandments? You need not doubt, he is asking you to obey the commandments that God gave the Jews through Moses. If you ask Jesus the Jew ,”Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”. Is this Jesus the Jew teaching anything against Judaism? Then who are the real followers of Jesus the Jew? This Jesus touching his heart says with cent per cent sincerity,”Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” What an irony, how can you say this Jesus removed the torah and asked the Jews to worship him as son of God and God?
Do you want me to say anything about Jesus the Christ who is the making of Christians to enable you to distinguish between Jesus the Jew and Jesus the Christ?
Daniel
There are other qualifications for a prophet recorded in teh book of Deuteronomy – but doesn’t Luke 19:44 disqualify Jesus? After all the Western wall is still standing from his times
Dear Pharisee Friend,
I wonder, how much pain you might have taken to make this astonishing marvelous findings in Luke 19:44 ? I would like to have your comment about the prophecy of Jesus which says,” They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”
“Jesus the Christ” and Jesus “the Jew” are one & the same. To divide him is to try to reinvent him. Those who believed in Jesus believed in a “Christ”, a “messiah”, a “teacher”. Take away that teacher & there could not be a Christ for his followers to follow except only an ordinary man like you. So what if Jesus was like a “part-time Jew” reading & mis-reading or mis-understanding a few words from the Jewish bible and ignoring it or disagreeing with it most of the time. If “those Jews” writing about the Jesus they knew 1st hand, face to face”, day to day, did not understand who they were following, who do you THINK you are to call them LIARS because YOU know the “real Jesus” better than them. If “those Jews” gave the wrong interpretation for Bible Prophecies, than “those Jews” also gave you the wrong Jesus, that other Jew they knew & followed the Christ. And if “those Jews” were wrong, why do you somehow believe that it is somehow impossible for “that Jew”, that other Jew with a different name from them (but the same name as several others who are fools, as we see in the writings of Josephus), to be wrong. Calling Jesus a Jew doesn’t make him different from “those Jews”.
Since “those Jews” did not have a tape recorder, you only know “that Jew” from what “those Jews” said or wrote. Or ONLY the words that the gentile followers of “the Christ Jew” believed in. Or ONLY the words that the followers of the Christ wanted you to read. Maybe Jesus “the Jew” (maybe he was “crazy” as his mother, one of his followers, thought according to the NT) said absolutely NOTHING of you what you read, but instead you read what Jesus “the part-time Christ Jew” said.
The gentile followers (or true followers) of the Christ Jew or the Jew Christ, read and believe ALL the words of the “Jew Jesus”. They do not carve him up into parts like a turkey. They do not split him (or his words) down the middle with a sword into 2 halves, one acceptable and the other half incomplete and defiled, a lie.
It is always good to look closely at “prophecies”. 1st most scholars believe Luke was written after the fall of Jerusalem. It is easy to predict events long after the events have already occurred. And the other gospel writers don’t seem to remember that “very important prophecy” of Luke, the “gentile” believer of “Jesus the Christ”. The “Jewish” followers of Jesus may also have not heard the prophecy, since supposedly many were in Jerusalem at the time of the temple’s destruction.
Lets look at the prediction in more detail. 1st Jesus is speaking to his disciples, not to “the Jews” in general, because there will be disagreement and strife between family members because of Jesus. Jesus said before the things are to take place, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them”. Those many false prophets, coming in the name of Jesus, did not occur at that time. And maybe, if they say “in the name of Jesus”, don’t follow them.
And there will be many wars between nations, many earthquakes, great famines, horrendous signs in the heavens, etc. Don’t worry the end wasn’t near yet. That also did not occur before the destruction of the temple.
You left out some vital details of the prophecy before your quote. Now lets read the next part of that prophecy in Luke which sure sounds as if it were going to happen soon (nothing to indicate that 1900 years of relative peace will lapse before the “real end times”):
“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place,….”
All that was supposed to happen “soon” not later. So, if the prophecy came true, the son of man has came in great glory 1900 years ago? After those things happen above “then your redemption is near”. You aren’t “redeemed” yet.
Naaria,
You say ,”All that was supposed to happen “soon” not later”. Your understanding is not right. It is true that his disciples believed the kingdom of god will appear immediately. But Like your belief theirs also was wrong. Search why Jesus told them the Parable of Talents, then you will understand this truth. Luke has said why Jesus told that Parable. see it,” While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.” Jesus told that parable to teach them it will take a very long period for the Kingdom to come. (Luke.19:11)
And you say “So, if the prophecy came true, the son of man has came in great glory 1900 years ago? ” This understanding also is wrong. Are you not aware Jesus told the Jews,”So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him”.(Mathew 24:44)
Are you not aware, and are you not astonished, The apostles didn’t want to know When the messiah or son of God will come from heaven to take then into heaven. But the last question they asked to Jesus was this ,””Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority”.(Acts.1:6) Then how can you say “So, if the prophecy came true, the son of man has came in great glory 1900 years ago?”.
I do not question the fact that Luke might have written the gospel after the destruction of Jerusalem. But Jesus made that prophecy before his death. Jesus said” Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”. Can you refute the truth that gentiles trampled Jerusalem under their foot for the last 2000 years? Can you say Luke wrote that prophecy after seeing this 2000 years? Remove the Christian spectacle from your eyes before you read the gospels, then you will see Jesus the Jew. Please try to understand Gospels in its right perspective.
I am pointing out that if one thing is supposed to happen and THEN another thing, you can’t say the real “understanding” is that the 2nd thing will happen and then the earlier thing. Matt 24 also says, “All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. “Then they will deliver you”. The birth pains happens before the birth, before the “delivery”. This is the Christian understanding and it is the Jewish or the secularist’s or the atheist’s understanding. A wise messenger gives a message that can be understood. Otherwise, they might as well not say anything. So the usual understanding is the audience of a message is the audience not other people at other times. If the recipient of the message misunderstood the original message, what is passed on is the misunderstanding, an unintentional lie. The disciple will not want to pass on what makes no sense to him, but his understanding of the original message. The writer did not “record on tape” the original message. Nor, if you understood how that message changed over time (if you actually looked at the visual evidence of the distortions), you could not put faith in the message as “the pure message” or the original message. The original message wasn’t given to you. Nor was the original message given to them to misunderstand it as long as it finally got to you, and then the real understanding finally enters the world. But what good is that, if what you say makes no sense to others? But there will be many who feel they have the “real” understanding, many false teachers, many false prophets. Didn’t need a false prophet to tell us that nor to tell us not to believe what false prophets preach.
I am pointing out that if one thing is supposed to happen and THEN another thing, you can’t say the real “understanding” is that the 2nd thing will happen and then the earlier thing. Matt 24 also says, “All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. “Then they will deliver you”. The birth pains happens before the birth, before the “delivery”. This is the Christian understanding and it is the Jewish or the secularist’s or the atheist’s understanding. A wise messenger gives a message that can be understood. Otherwise, they might as well not say anything. So the usual understanding is the audience of a message is the audience not other people at other times. If the recipient of the message misunderstood the original message, what is passed on is the misunderstanding, an unintentional lie. The disciple will not want to pass on what makes no sense to him, but his understanding of the original message. The writer did not “record on tape” the original message. Nor, if you understood how that message changed over time (if you actually looked at the visual evidence of the distortions), you could not put faith in the message as “the pure message” or the original message. The original message wasn’t given to you. Nor was the original message given to them to misunderstand it as long as it finally got to you, and then the real understanding finally enters the world. But what good is that, if what you say makes no sense to others? But there will be many who feel they have the “real” understanding, many false teachers, many false prophets. Didn’t need a false prophet to tell us that nor to tell us not to believe what false prophets preach.
If a prophet speaks in parables, so that he is not understood, he does not want you to understand (there is a reason for the deception, the lie). The true disciple does not pass along or write the truth that they were given or else then they are disobeying and negating the whole purpose of the original, dissembling parable. So, given the truth they did not mis-understand; they passed on the lie. A secret must remain a secret and only future false teachers say they know the secret, the real understanding. A true prophet, sent by God to give a message, will give a clear message. There should be no mis-understanding. It is up to all future recipients of the clear message to either accept it for their own good or to reject it.
Naaria,
You say “ A true prophet, sent by God to give a message, will give a clear message. “ This is what we expect. But have you not read Isaiah 6:8-13 which says “Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!” He said, “Go and tell this people: ” ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” Then I said, “For how long, O Lord?” And he answered: “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged, until the LORD has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken. And though a tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.”
And see What Jesus says. The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: ” ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ It doesn’t mean that its effect will remain forever. Again you see Isaiah to know how its effects will remain.
Isaiah says,” Then I said, “For how long, O Lord?” And he answered: “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged, until the LORD has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken. And though a tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.”. So it was the intention of God to remain its result till the holy seed remains a stump. Now the holy seed is not a stump. Now it has taken root and flourished and it is time to reveal the meaning of the parables of Jesus to the entire world.
Jesus was not a liar. Jesus says,” I have not come on my own; but he sent me. (John 8:42) I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” ( John 12:49,50) I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.(John 13:17) How can we say this Jesus asks Jews or any body to worship him as son of god and God as the Christians believe and preach ?
Isaiah came with a message of the soon to be punishment. But, with hope and in the near term. He was not a messiah of the “end times”. He did not pretend to be a redeemer or a savior. He did not lead astray the innocent with deception or confusing messages (actual a true parable is meant to simplify and clarify, not to confuse nor to keep a true understanding of God away from the people). A message of repentance by the people is not meant to be kept a secret for 2000 years. That is watching generation after generation (not just “guilty ones” 2000 years ago) of drowning and not tossing in a life preserver or sending the rescue boat for 2000 years while saying you are the rescuer. That deceit of Jesus is actually like throwing young and “innocent” children into the flooding water. It is throwing them into a fire. It is throwing the weed & tare seeds into the neighbors clean field. “Feeding the sheep” is not holding off on the “food” for 2000 years except for a few; that is not a good shepherd. Jesus was not Isaiah and his message was not the same, nor meant to be the same, as Isaiah’s or Jeremiahs or Malachi’s. And you are trying to picture him as such and yet as something entirely different. You are trying to make Jesus a prophet by showing him as a copy of a prophet, by showing how well he repeats or parrots other prophets. That is not a true prophet, that is false prophet (the false “Christs” that lead astray are disciples and imitators of their prophet teacher; they are followers, not enemies. That is how they are able to lead astray). But each prophet is different for a reason and they speak to different audiences in different social & political environments.
The Messiah of God will speak clearly not with deception; teachs in the open not in secret to a few disciples who don’t even understand; gathers & not scatters; rises the people up & not keeps them down & ignorant through millenia until the “end times” when they will all be punished for their ignorance of his “real truth”.
Naaria,
Prophesies are not made to happen soon. Fulfillment of the prophecy may take a very long period so that people will say “The days go by and every vision comes to nothing”.(Ezekiel 12:22) See Daniel 8:14 says “Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled–the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?” He said to me, “It will take “2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”. Actually those are not 2300 days, those are 2300 years. See Yahweh says ,” I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin”. (Ezekiel 4:5)
Who am I to make Jesus a Prophet or a false prophet? What authority do you have to judge Jesus is a false prophet? You do not believe in Jesus and there is no wonder in that. Jesus says to you,” If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” You may ask what Moses wrote about Jesus? Apostle Peter says about Jesus” For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.’ (Acts 3:22,23) You can believe it or disbelieve it, God has given you the freedom but use your freedom rightly.
Jesus has made an astonishing prophecy about people like you, hear the words of Jesus,”I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.” Jesus came in the name of God and claims he is the prophet about whom Moses wrote in the scriptures but you do not believe Jesus. St.Paul was not sent by God or by Jesus and St.Paul doesn’t claim so, but St. Paul came claming he had a vision on the road to Damascus, and he said Jesus is the messiah, death of Jesus on the cross removed the Torah and Jesus is the son of god and god, you are believing his words. That is why you think Jesus claimed he is the messiah, son of God and god and you call Jesus a false prophet, in fact Jesus never claimed he is the messiah. In other words you do not accept the words of Jesus whom god sent but accepts the words of Paul who came on his own and that itself proves that Jesus was a prophet.
Jesus didn’t claim he has come to take away sin of all human beings. But he said he had come to bring a sword, he has come to bring division. “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! . Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. In fact Jesus divided Jews into two groups. One who remained as Jews who worship Yahweh only as god. The other is who worship Jesus as son of god and God along with Yahweh the God. Those who began to worship Jesus as God became Christians. Then the Christians themselves began to divide into innumerable divisions. Can you say how many divisions are among the Christians? Still divisions among the divisions are going on. Still you do not believe in the words of Jesus and interestingly you say “That deceit of Jesus is actually like throwing young and “innocent” children into the flooding water. It is throwing them into a fire”. What deceit Jesus did? Is it not what Jesus said I have come to bring fire on earth, I have come to bring a sword and not peace, I have come to bring division?
Jesus never pretended he has come to establish the kingdom or to restore Israel. What he said to the Jews was that “ I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. “Be on your guard against men;”. What deceit do you find in his words?
I don’t have time today to address all of your points (besides not being worthy of my time). But if a “prophet” gives you a time line, don’t go rearranging the words to fit your personal opinion. “Soon” still does not mean later. Nor do the “later” things come first (within a couple score years).
Who is making Jesus greater than his master? Why does Jesus have to tell people who in no way believe Jesus is God this from John? John 12:49,50) I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
I am not a Christian, but you are and yet you want to deny ALL of Jesus. I never accepted Paul as my teacher. But you have been greatly influenced by him. You would not know about Jesus, if it were not for Paul. Prove to me Paul (Daniel Paul) that Paul was not fruit from Jesus. Judge Jesus by his fruit. Jesus hand picked him and guided him. Show where Paul (without perhaps using books of Galatians or Hebrews), was not “fruit of Jesus”. James/Yaakov, Peter, & John accepted him as one of their own. So are none of Jesus’ fruit acceptable to you? Or is this division that is imposed upon people by Jesus, against their natural will & even upon innocent children? Raised to hate because of Jesus & his divisive ways? That “is of the “devil””
Matt 4:9. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Matt 11:27: All things have been handed over to me by my Father.
Although the “devil” is not a Jewish belief & Jews only see one Father, your Jesus disagrees? Jesus is a “Jew”. John says Jews are of their father the devil.
Naaria,
It is very interesting; when Jesus says God sent me you do not believe Jesus. But you believe Paul when he claims I heard the voice of Jesus in a vision. Who is the Paul? Jesus selected 12 apostles and they were with him all day and night. This Paul was not one among them. After the death of Jesus, Paul came claiming I saw a vision and heard the voice of Jesus. When Jesus says the living God sent me you cannot believe Jesus but when Paul says the dead Jesus sent me you can believe Paul, wonderful, and you can believe Paul is the fruit of Jesus.
Do you think it was Paul who started converting Gentiles into Christian religion? It was Peter the assistant of Jesus who started this conversion. Peter was following the Jewish tradition. Whatever may be the reason are you not converting gentiles into Judaism even today? See what is the opinion of Jesus about this conversion:- “You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.”
You challenge me “Prove to me Paul (Daniel Paul) that Paul was not fruit from Jesus”.
I would like to say Paul is not fruit from Jesus, Paul is fruit from Judaism. It was Judaism who provided the world the concept of a Messiah. It was Judaism who provided the world the concept of resurrection. It was Judaism who taught the world that many of the prophesies in the bible are about the Messiah. Belief in a messiah developed through centuries to the point of some Jews believing Jesus is that Messiah, the son of God and God. All the ingrediances to make Jesus the messiah is provided by Judaism. Then Who is to blame if their belief is wrong? Are you not washing your hand putting all the blame on Paul saying Paul is the fruit of Jesus? I agree with you Christian religion is the culmination of wrong interpretation of Bible, but where is the right interpretation to prove their belief is wrong? Why can’t we try to provide a right interpretation for the Gospel of the Kingdom of God- the message of Jesus the Jew?
in the above comment “ingrediances” may be corrected as ingredients. sorry for the mistake.
Who is to blame? One blames the teacher if the students who were with him day & night remained ignorant or spoke nonsense or spoke falsehoods. Jesus was confident about their abilities to spread his message correctly while he was still alive. Do you know his disciples better than he did? Do you know Paul better than the disciples? The “live” and the dead Jesus gave them instructions. The dead Jesus showed them visions like he showed Paul. Paul would disagree with you. He believed the “living God” sent him & spoke to him and spoke through him. Did you meet Paul and correct him? Jesus was “inside of him” by his belief in Jesus the “Jew”. His belief in the Jew Jesus came first and then his teaching of that Jesus. What was it about the teachings of the “Jew Jesus” that caused Paul to err? Wasn’t he afraid of being struck by lightning? No, because he “knew the real Jesus”. Instead, god or Jesus always came to his rescue. And If Jesus sits at the right hand of God with the power over all the earth, it was not a “dead Jesus” that spoke to Paul. Paul believed in a resurrected Jesus, a Jesus in heaven, so I hope you reject the resurrection as you reject most of Paul’s beliefs. But show where Paul disagreed with Jesus (w/o using Galatians or Hebrews or a few isolated verses.) Show us where & when some “devils” put some lies in the Gospels & Acts and put a few “truths from Jesus” in between Paul’s “lies”. Or do like Thomas Jefferson and publish a bible with only the “real Jesus” in it. For how can anyone know the “truth” if one sentence is a lie followed by a truth from Jesus and the next one is a lie. They swallow the “lie pill” with the “truth medicine” making the medicine of no effect or with worse consequences then the “disease”. Better no Jesus at all, which Jesus supposedly himself said. Maybe so, maybe not. Instead of trying to find a morsel of clean food in between all the “garbage”, canonize a new, new testament, instead of continuing to preach from a book filled with “Paul’s and the “churches” lies”. Show hard evidence, not speculation or personal opinion, of what words of Jesus is a lie and which are from the “real Jesus” because the words sound “Jewish” or from Judaism.
I don’t believe Paul, you still do. You can’t see how intertwined his beliefs are with yours. I wasn’t taught by Paul. And, I don’t blame Paul, but you do. Perhaps a Paul never even existed, since no early gentile Church leader (no one, no historian, either Roman or Jewish) spoke of him in the mid- to late 2nd century until Marcion did. Augustine in the 4th century wrote that the letters of the NT were fakes. But you believe that he existed and that teaching about Jesus was wrong, but no one corrected him; not the true disciples of Jesus, not the dead Jesus, not the “living god”. Didn’t the “living God” see Paul was “reversing and destroying all of what your Jesus” spoke and set out to accomplish? Why be so upset about Paul, why wash your hands by blaming Paul, if the dead Jesus or “the living god” didn’t mind? IF God had sent Jesus to do a job, then just as surely God could have corrected or silenced Paul from undoing & destroying all of Jesus’ work and perverting the word of Jesus and spreading that cancer to millions, billions of otherwise innocent souls. All that was done in the name of Jesus, not Paul. So if Paul had more power than Jesus, if Jesus didn’t mind Paul perverting his word, blame Jesus & not a mere man. Or else why was Jesus “sent”, if the only ones who listened to him misunderstood his message and spread an evil message all over the world to make us more the “sons of hell”. Jesus must have approved of Paul’s “perversion of the truth”. You blame Paul and Jesus’ students for being bad fruit, bad seed, from Jesus, but it was the tree that produced that fruit. You can not blame fruit, it is the result of what was poured into them “day and night” after day. You need a scapegoat, someone to blame for the nonsense you see in the words of Jesus and his followers, so that you can hold on to a dead Jesus.
You believe you have a new, unique message about Jesus. But I heard most of it before; it is part of a new message coming from old churches. It is a new version of the old that brings about more division in the name of Jesus, and not more unity of “the one way”. More “true churches” (or on the other hand, greater rejection of “institutions” and “church traditions”) and at the same time, more “churches of the devil”.
If Paul came out of “Judaism” before becoming a follower of the Jew Jesus, it was from some small, strange sect (maybe a “Sadducee”), not from the Pharisees. The one called Saul did not adhere to teachings of the “OT” or to normative Judaism of those times. If he was taught by Gamaliel, Paul forgot it when the Jew Jesus in heaven spoke to him & showed him visions (see Hyam Maccoby’s book). A Paul or Saul in Jerusalem was more a product of Tarsus & Greece than of Judea. In Acts, Paul showed the Roman soldiers, he really was a Roman citizen, not a true Jew.
And what might “Judaism” say of Jesus? An old saying of some Rabbis is that, whatever Jesus said that was “old”, was good and what he said that was “new” was not so good. IOW, the old is from the Tanach AND from Judaism. What was new (most of the NT, including some of your “Jewish Jesus”) was pagan and came from true followers of Jesus or from Paul. “Your version of Jesus” came out of Judaism (partially). Jesus quotes the Jewish bible sometimes correctly. He quotes a Jew, Judas Maacabee on man & the Sabbath (did you honor the Sabbath this morning?). A number of gospel characters are named the same as the Maccabeans & “Judah the Galilean” and his zealot sons and the “bojarnes”. The NT is often like a bad play reinterpreting & rewriting history & Jewish scripture. You believe in a Jesus because of some of “his” words and others believe in Jesus because of some of his other words. Settle this war between you & your fellows, with your different versions of the “real” “Jesus the Jew”, before you continue to go “around the world” preaching to those who can’t accept any of those confusing versions, sibe they all in some way contradict the original Bible. Jesus may quote Hillel, but he also sometimes agrees with Shammai. At times, he acts & thinks like a Pharisee, but then like a Sadducee, then like an Essene, then like a Hellenized Jew, then like he was greatly influenced by “Babylon” and Zorasterianism. He acts like a lamb and then warns against sheep that are really wolves (in secret & hoping people don’t understand his parables). He acts as a lion, but he does preach peace & praises children who have little discernment (a lamb. Who is afraid of the big bad wolf? Better to eat you). “All these things” and the world was the “devil’s” to give and all of a sudden “Jesus’ says “his father” gave him “all things”. He tried but failed to cleanse the temple, after cursing an ordinary soul-less tree. That is not a sign of a sane man. He was forsaken by Almighty God & he remained clueless as to why. Yes, he preached division as well. What was his real mission? To heal a very few (to gain confidence as a con-man does) and then blind the many (for millennia, not just a generation)? There were wiser folks who united, not divided, who offered real light, not darkness. Many brought people closer to the original God or helped the lost to return to God and to a more joyful, more Godly life on earth. Those are real heroes worthy of praise. Blessed, instead of cursed. Promised a better future than the one that Jesus promised. Prophets that Jesus supposedly agreed with in his early life, until something went wrong. Hard to believe that one “sent” by God was “kidnapped”.
Why deal with all of his mess & instead go back to the teachers of Jesus before he became the Christ? It was Jews who were faithful to their God, who didn’t see Jesus as a true prophet nor equal to the prophets they knew. Long before Jesus, the Tanach warned about the “Jesus-type”. What sort of Jesus did the Christ marketeers offer you? Every thing you say about Jesus. Why did they leave “your Jesus” there? Because that is who they believed in. Or, was it just bait to snag the Jew?! Why carve him up into kosher and unclean pieces and then wonder which is which? Or sort through “garbage” for a few clean words, when his prophecies were all there before him? Why twist scripture in order to create a sense that some “prophecies” were “fulfilled”? So much shenanigans that some people are now wary even of looking at real prophesies, lest they be fooled again. Because many false prophets will come speaking his name and they have & will continue to lead folks astray. Besides rewards & eternal punishment, there are the scapegoats (the Jew or Pharisees for non-Jewish customers; “Mary worship” and the Roman church for non-Catholics; and an “anti-Torah” Paul for religious Jews). And by selecting only certain verses and saying that those are the “real words” that came from the “real Jesus”, “the Jew”. “Bad cop” Paul vs. “good cop” Jesus, the “Jew like you”. That is the latest fad. The latest marketing gimmick, especially since the unthinkable happened before the “end times” and a nation of Israel was established. Finally, some have come to see that “just maybe the Jews who rejected Jesus were right all along” on many things. To “pre-empt” defeat, new schemes, new interpretations had to be developed & promoted. Yours is not new; I heard all of “your argument” 2 decades ago. Don’t ignore my tough questions and instead of repeating yourself, come up with something new, something logical.
Christians don’t like the gimmick of a “kosher Jesus”, but they want Jews to accept Jesus even if he has to be “dressed up”. And appearance, birthplace, genealogy, amount of Jewish scripture used, the “quantity of Jewishness”, etc are the selling points. That is marketing. As soon as you say “Jesus the Jew”, “your Jesus” is superficial. You aren’t hearing the “sender”. A “prophet” is only a prophet. Who the prophet is, is beside the point. Better nameless than famous or like a showman doing tricks or drawing attention to himself. The more emphasis on the prophet, the less on God. Jesus becomes an idol, even if one sees Jesus as ONLY a man. What does Jesus really teach about the sender, that was previously unknown? If one sees Jesus, you have seen God? God is more than that. Jesus might be humble & secretive in Mark, but John makes him into a boastful, arrogant “king”, yet without a throne and without a nation. Promoting a kingdom of God or a kingdom of Jesus? According to the NT, the kingdoms were the “devils” to give. According to Paul, there are even evil powers & principalities in the heavens. Is God supreme any place? In the Jewish bible God is, and no one needs to go up to heaven & come down (I.e., a Jesus type) with his law, his word. None to go up & none to be “sent”. Before Jesus & the mess he created. Stop blaming Paul who neither created or sent Jesus. Or maybe he did invent Jesus the Jew Christ.
Naaria,
My book “ Truth Hidden in The Gospels Revealed” will give answer to all your questions and doubts. With out going through my book making statements like “Yours is not new; I heard all of “your argument” 2 decades ago” is not fair and right.
You say “Jesus was confident about their abilities to spread his message correctly while he was still alive”. You comprehension about the work entrusted to apostles and Paul is not correct. You and the world think that the work entrusted to apostles and Paul was spreading the message of Jesus. In other words you think that Jesus send his apostles to saw the seed of the kingdom of God. You are wrong, Jesus says to his apostles “I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.” Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. Jesus was confident about their abilities. Jesus was right, the apostles did the work entrusted to them superbly.
You ask me to show where Paul disagreed with Jesus. Where as Jesus sent them to reap, Paul understood it that they were sent to sow or plant. Paul says about his work “ I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, “ ( 1 Corinthians 3:6,7) Do you know what Jesus says about this? Jesus says “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots”.(Mathew 15:13) I hope now you know where Paul disagreed with Jesus. Had you heard this some 2 decades ago? Am I not telling something new from what you have ever heard?
You say The more emphasis on the prophet, the less on God. Are you telling Jesus make himself more glorified than God? Hear the words of Jesus “ I am not seeking glory for myself; but I honor my Father and you dishonor me”. You are dishonoring Jesus accusing Jesus made himself Messiah, Son of God and God and that too because of misunderstanding.
From where did you have this idea “If one sees Jesus, you have seen God?” may be from “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” John 14 :9. The meaning you have conceived is entirely different from what Jesus meant. Here Jesus is speaking as if he is Israel in the language of a prophets. That is why he says “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”. Jesus meant who has seen Israel the son of God has seen God because God reveals through his son Israel to the world. Had you heard Jesus meant this some 2 decades ago? Am I not telling something new from what you have ever heard?
I hope now you could understand that it was some Jewish belief about the messiah that caused Paul to err and not the teachings of Jesus who requested the Jews not to believe any one who claims he is the messiah.
You asked me to do like Thomas Jefferson and publish a bible with only the “real Jesus” in it. I have rearranged the words of Jesus from the four gospels and amalgamated them into one gospel to reveal the “Real Jesus – Jesus the Jew”. Can you provide me your email address, I shall send it you, It will remove all your doubts and it will give you answer to all your questions you have raised. After going through it let me have your concrete criticism about my work. Please help me to prune my work. I see a very dynamic friend in you.
Daniel:
You are not the 1st one who read Matthew and wondered what he meant. Your arguments, so far, are not that unique (although I don’t recall someone using 1 Corinthians 3:6,7 – that way). However, most of those who would agree with you on many points might call Jesus, Yeshua or some other more Jewish sounding name instead. There are several different versions of Jesus (other than the traditional “main-stream” ones). Some see more of your Jesus, the apocalyptic “Jewish” prophet in the “Essenes” or in the writings discovered in Qumran.
In John 14, Jesus says “No one comes to the Father except through me” or in your understanding “…through Israel”. Jesus declares himself to be the “gatekeeper” for God. This is not similar to angels. No longer does God speak to a person. No longer can Man come to God in prayer or worship unless they go through a conduit, a middle man. That is idolatry. This is Plato’s concept of a Logos or “Word”. Or, in effect, Jesus “replaces” God. Israel might be a Son of God, but no one has to “go through” Israel to get to God. Jesus is a different type of “son” though. He is like Baal (lord). John makes him a god, exactly like any god of Rome, Greece or Babylon. That is why Christians quote Nebuchadnezzar as proof of Jesus’ prophetship or “son of man”. My advice is to avoid quoting John; Jesus the Christ is it’s “foundation”.
In an effort to separate the sower & the reaper, you skipped over John 4:36. “Already the one who reaps… so that sower and reaper may rejoice together.”
It is not “sowing” that is “bad” it is what is sown. The harvest is not always good. Jeremiah says the “daughter of Babylon” will also have a harvest. We should reap what we sow. God commands that we (actual or metaphorical farmers) sow & that we leave the edges of our fields and any dropped or ungleaned seed, for widows, orphans, or the poor. If we are not talking about the unfortunate or about hired hands (or renters) usually when one person sows and another reaps, the one who harvests is a thief. In the early Ist century c.e. Israel, many landowners or landlords were Romans or other rich foreigners and many of them were ruthless & corrupt. They were often absent for months or years and hired someone to “run the place” and those foreman were also “slave drivers”, ruthless, & corrupt. Of course, Jesus (or some Roman author or editor/redactor) sometimes makes the thief and the “stern taskmaster” the “good guy” or God. Just like Pilate is made to be a “scared, sweet man”, almost a “wimp”, or a decent, honorable, but powerless man. And the Jews are usually the villains (totally legalistic, yet lawless). The Roman empire controls Judea with a iron fist, but the NT pictures the Jews as in charge. Pilate, the mass murderer of Jews (according to Roman & Jewish writers) trembles in fear of “the Jews”. And Jesus & his disciple’s “Jewishness” is hidden or minimized (so it seems they are not “the Jews”). NT Jesus has little bad to say about the Romans or the Herodians. Why his “blindness” to (or tacit acceptance of) the “biggest sinners” around? Where is his words of hope to the poor Jews? Offering hope is a sign of a good prophet. Where does repentance & teshuva fit in “the harvest” & the “keep them blind” schemes?
Depending on the crop or how it is planted, you have to be careful with another parable of Jesus. (good & bad sown seed). Deut 22 says “You shall not sow… with two kinds of seed, lest the whole yield be forfeited,”. Why? One reason is competition. For instance, weeds take away water from your planted crop & block the sunshine, etc. So, not “weeding” your crop, not removing the weeds, means you will have much less of a harvest of the good crop. And when you remove the mature weed, like Jesus suggests, you will trample a lot of the good crop down. Plus, a lot of mature weed seed will drop off before you get to the edge of the field. So, in effect, by “harvesting” the mature weed seed, you are greatly spreading the bad seed, and sowing & planting weeds for next year. I’ve seen a lot of weedy fields in my time.
God “sows” a few times in the Bible, but God commands that “WE” sow. There will always be sowing and reaping, good or bad, except for things like a drought, famine, when God “doesn’t water” the plants. Psa 126:5 Those who sow in tears shall reap with shouts of joy! Isa 32:20, Happy are you who sow beside all waters,…”. And, God actually teaches us how to sow in Isa 28:26, “For he is rightly instructed; his God teaches him.”
For the righteous person, or he who turns from evil & returns to God, we are told in Isa 30:23 “And God will give rain for the seed with which you sow the ground, and bread, the produce of the ground, which will be rich and plenteous.”
Hosea 10:12. Sow for yourselves righteousness; reap steadfast love; break up your fallow ground, for it is the time to seek the LORD, that he may come and rain righteousness upon you.
Whether you like it or not,the word Jesus did not become a symbol just like that it is written that so it will be,it is written all over the bible have ” sensibility” to approach with humbleness to the words of our Father