(A Letter to E. Lion)
Lion, the issue is really one of claims. The Christian religion is nothing more and nothing less than people making a claim about the fulfillment of the Jewish Bible, and about the promised role of the Jewish messiah. We all know that the Jewish bible stands or falls on the commandments of G-d. Christianity believes that one Jesus of Nazareth fulfills the Tanakh’s picture of the Messiah, Judaism respectfully disagrees.
Consider the following points very carefully
1. The Hebrew Bible is a book primarily composed of the commandments of G-d which he told Israel to follow in all their generations. It clearly and unambiguously teaches Jews the worship of G-d alone so they can be separated from polytheism. The tanakh says mankind can master their evil inclination and that G-d forgives the repentant. The fathers are not punished for the sins of sons, nor the reverse, but the one who sins is punished.
2. The New Testament says that the word of the father became flesh (fully G-d & Fully man Neither confusing the natures nor dividing the person,) and that in this one Jesus alone, mankind can find forgiveness from sin thereby being filled with the spirit of G-d and able to walk in the commands of G-d.
3. This same New Testament claims that someone else who is lawless (sinful or anti law because sin is the transgression of the law.) will come in the future who also claims to be G-d, but who does deceitful miracles, and who also suffers a “deadly wound.” (revelation 13.) This anti Christ figure as it were copies Jesus’ own alleged miracles exactly, and offers his exact proofs for legitimacy, thereby tricking everyone.
The New Testament in this 13th chapter of Revelation is indirectly telling you and other Christians why Jews can never accept your faith. Doctrines like the trinity, the atoning death of Jesus, and the miracles of Jesus, are not a solid ground indicator of the truth, only faithfulness to the commandments are. In other words, just because someone does miracles, claims he is G-d, and is healed from a deadly wound, doesn’t mean he is really G-d, or that you should worship him.
These 3 things being firmly established in the text, why are you so upset that Jews don’t share in the fundamental theology of your faith? Your own book, and you yourself say that groups who claim to be Christians can be deceived, and may not actually be true followers. In that case, Judaism will stick with what EVERYONE AGREES is central to scripture, namely, to a walk with G-d, in the commandments.
Judaism is not about G-d’s nature and what it may or may not be. It is not centered around the messiah and who he may or may not be. It is centered around Israel obeying the plain sense of G-D’s commandments. In that sense Jews are commanded to listen first to the Jewish Bible.
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
First and foremost I need to ask the question for the proof of the resurrection. In certain Christian Bibles I find comments like; “This passage was added later”.
Mark 16:7-10 KJV But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. (8) And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid. (9) Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. (10) And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
Old manuscripts end up with Verse 8, thus Verses 9 – 16 were added later by the church, according to Christian Bible comments. This should disprove the “fact” of the resurrection of a graven image on two crossed bars. Yet, when I consider the image on the bars I need to come to the conclusion that he (or it) is still dead.
It is reported of Mary and Mohammed likewise that they were ascended somehow. Either I believe that all three of them were ascended or non. After searching the Tanach for a prophecy of a resurrection or an ascension of a graven idol I learned; there is non! But this I learned; “….no graven image….”, not even invisibly in my imagination along with the Christian doctrine that he is alife.
Hi Concerned Reader,
You wrote:
“The New Testament says that the word of the father became flesh (fully G-d & Fully man Neither confusing the natures nor dividing the person…”
My response:
Please cite with Scripture where the NT says what you claim it says.
You wrote:
“just because someone does miracles, claims he is G-d…”
My response:
Please cite with Scripture, your premise that Jesus claimed to be God.
You wrote:
“The Hebrew Bible is a book primarily composed of the commandments of G-d”
My response:
The Hebrew Scriptures are primarily about God’s revelation of Himself to man. The commandments are part of that revelation and stem from, and are in agreement with God’s nature and revelation of Himself.
For example God said in Exodus 34
5 The YHWH descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name, “The YHWH.”
6 The YHWH passed before him, and proclaimed,
“The YHWH, the YHWH,
a God merciful and gracious,
slow to anger,
and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,
7
keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation,
forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,
yet by no means clearing the guilty,
but visiting the iniquity of the parents
upon the children
and the children’s children,
to the third and the fourth generation.”
You wrote:
“We all know that the Jewish bible stands or falls on the commandments of G-d.”
My response:
The commandments do not originate of themselves. They originate with God. And as noted above there is much more to the Hebrew Scriptures than God’s commandments.
The Hebrew Scriptures stand or fall on whether or not they are true.
You wrote:
“…are not a solid ground indicator of the truth, only faithfulness to the commandments are.”
My response:
What does the miracle at the Jordan wherein God began to exult Joshua in the eyes of the Israelites have to do with Joshua’s faithfulness to the commandments?
Or the miracle at Sinai have to do with Moses’ faithfulness to the commandments?
Are you saying they were perfect?
The Messiah comes from the line of David, beginning through his son Solomon, both of whom sinned grievously, on several occasions (the most famous being David’s sin of murder and adultery and Solomon being that of idolatry).
Obviously then, “only faithfulness to the commandments” are NOT the only indicator of the truth, miracles do play a role.
You wrote:
“The tanakh says mankind can master their evil inclination and that G-d forgives the repentant.
My response:
So, then according to your understanding of the tanakh, could Hitler have been forgiven if he repented just prior to committing suicide? And if forgiven would he the enjoy life in the age to come along with the Jews he had murdered?
You wrote:
The fathers are not punished for the sins of sons, nor the reverse, but the one who sins is punished.”
My response:
How do you account for God instructing the Israelites to execute the children of Achan for their father Achan’s sin?
Im responding to traditional church teaching about Jesus’ alleged deity, im not saying i believe he is G-D. The verses that unambiguously teach jesus deity are in John’s gospel. He has a high christology. That wasnt the point of my comments.
Hi Concerned Reader,
But you do seem to be saying that’s what you believe the NT teaches.
Regarding the biases of mainstream Trinitarian Christianity, what makes you think that they have interpreted the Hebrew Scripture erroneously with regards to their claimed triune nature of God and the deity of the Messiah, while these same people got it right when it comes to their bible acumen in terms of the NT?
Is it not more likely that you have as well bought into their argument due to your own bias that the way they interpret the NT is the correct way, and they way they interpret the Hebrew Scriptures is the wrong way?
In your reference to verses in John as being unambiguous, more than likely you are referring to John 1:1, which is traditionally used as the Trinitarian cornerstone of their argument for the alleged deity of Jesus.
Here’s a counter argument for understanding the verse in a non Trinitarian way on two ten minute videos:
And a portion of the argument here.
The renowned Trinitarian scholar, John Lightfoot, writes:
The word logos then, denoting both “reason” and “speech,” was a philosophical term adopted by Alexandrian Judaism before St. Paul wrote, to express the manifestation of the Unseen God in the creation and government of the World. It included all modes by which God makes Himself known to man. As His reason, it denoted His purpose or design; as His speech, it implied His revelation. Christian teachers, when they adopted this term, exalted and fixed its meaning by attaching to it two precise and definite ideas: (1) “The Word is a Divine Person,” (2) “The Word became incarnate in Jesus Christ.” It is obvious that these two propositions must have altered materially the significance of all the subordinate terms connected with the idea of the logos.
It is important to note that it was “Christian teachers” who attached the idea of a “divine person” to the word logos. It is certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially. Lightfoot correctly understands that the early meaning of logos concerned reason and speech, not “Jesus Christ.”
The logos is the expression of God, and is His communication of Himself, just as a “word” is an outward expression of a person’s thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son, and thus it is perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the “Word.” Jesus is an outward expression of God’s reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason, we call revelation “a word from God” and the Bible “the Word of God.”
If we understand that the logos is God’s expression—His plan, purposes, reason and wisdom, it is clear that they were indeed with Him “in the beginning.” Scripture says that God’s wisdom was “from the beginning” (Prov. 8:23). It was very common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. No ancient Jew reading Proverbs would think that God’s wisdom was a separate person, even though it is portrayed as one in verses like Proverbs 8:29 and 30: “…when He marked out the foundations of the earth, I [wisdom] was the craftsman at His side.”
Most Jewish readers of the Gospel of John would have been familiar with the concept of God’s “word” being with God as He worked to bring His creation into existence. There is an obvious working of God’s power in Genesis 1 as He brings His plan into concretion by speaking things into being. The Targums are well known for describing the wisdom and action of God as His “word.” This is especially important to note because the Targums are the Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Old Testament, and Aramaic was the spoken language of many Jews at the time of Christ. Remembering that a Targum is usually a paraphrase of what the Hebrew text says, note how the following examples attribute action to the word:
•And the word of the Lord was Joseph’s helper (Gen. 39:2).
•And Moses brought the people to meet the word of the Lord (Ex. 19:17).
•And the word of the Lord accepted the face of Job (Job 42:9).
•And the word of the Lord shall laugh them to scorn (Ps. 2:4).
•They believed in the name of His word (Ps. 106:12).
The above examples demonstrate that the Jews were familiar with the idea of God’s Word referring to His wisdom and action. This is especially important to note because these Jews were fiercely monotheistic, and did not in any way believe in a “Triune God.” They were familiar with the idioms of their own language, and understood that the wisdom and power of God were being personified as “word.”
The Greek-speaking Jews were also familiar with God’s creative force being called “the word.” J. H. Bernard writes, “When we turn from Palestine to Alexandria [Egypt], from Hebrew sapiential [wisdom] literature to that which was written in Greek, we find this creative wisdom identified with the Divine logos, Hebraism and Hellenism thus coming into contact.” One example of this is in the Apocryphal book known as the Wisdom of Solomon, which says, “O God of my fathers and Lord of mercy who hast made all things by thy word (logos), and by thy wisdom hast formed man…” (9:1). In this verse, the “word” and “wisdom” are seen as the creative force of God, but without being a “person.”
The last phrase in the verse, which most versions translate as “and the Word was God,” should not be translated that way. The Greek language uses the word “God” (Greek = theos) to refer to the Father as well as to other authorities. These include the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4), lesser gods (1 Cor. 8:5) and men with great authority (John 10:34 and 35; Acts 12:22). At the time the New Testament was written, Greek manuscripts were written in all capital letters. The upper and lower case letters were not blended as we do today. Thus, the distinction that we today make between “God” and “god” could not be made, and the context became the judge in determining to whom “THEOS” referred.
Although context is the final arbiter, it is almost always the case in the New Testament that when “God” refers to the Father, the definite article appears in the Greek text (this article can be seen only in the Greek text, it is never translated into English). Translators are normally very sensitive to this (see John 10:33). The difference between theos with and without the article occurs in John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with “the theos,” and the Word was “theos.” Since the definite article is missing from the second occurrence of “theos” (“God,”) the usual meaning would be “god” or “divine.” The New English Bible gets the sense of this phrase by translating it, “What God was, the Word was.” James Moffatt who was a professor of Greek and New Testament Exegesis at Mansfield College in Oxford, England, and author of the well-known Moffatt Bible, translated the phrase, “the logos was divine.”
A very clear explanation of how to translate theos without the definite article can be found in Jesus As They Knew Him, by William Barclay, a professor at Trinity College in Glasgow:
In a case like this we cannot do other than go to the Greek, which is theos en ho logos. Ho is the definite article, the, and it can be seen that there is a definite article with logos, but not with theos. When in Greek two nouns are joined by the verb “to be,” and when both have the definite article, then the one is fully intended to be identified with the other; but when one of them is without the article, it becomes more an adjective than a noun, and describes rather the class or sphere to which the other belongs.
An illustration from English will make this clear. If I say, “The preacher is the man,” I use the definite article before both preacher and man, and I thereby identify the preacher with some quite definite individual man whom I have in mind. But, if I say, “The preacher is man,” I have omitted the definite article before man, and what I mean is that the preacher must be classified as a man, he is in the sphere of manhood, he is a human being.
[In the last clause of John 1:1] John has no article before theos, God. The logos, therefore, is not identified as God or with God; the word theos has become adjectival and describes the sphere to which the logos belongs. We would, therefore, have to say that this means that the logos belongs to the same sphere as God; without being identified with God, the logos has the same kind of life and being as God. Here the NEB [New English Bible] finds the perfect translation: “What God was, the Word was.”
David interesting argumentation. But the problem of translating from the Greek to English is compounded when we had the Hebraic mindset of Yohan. Let us pull out the Greek first:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος
Now let us just do a literal translation:
In a beginning (first cause) was-existing the Logos, and the Logos was-existing towards(facing) the Theon, and Theos was-existing the Logos
Observations: 1) ἦν is a imperfect indicative active which is not rendered correctly by was for the Logos is still existing or being.
2) ἀρχῇ is not preceded by the definite article which alters subtlety the meaning as in Genesis 1 where Bereshit is not preceded by the definite article which would have been Bareshit… Here in both cases the beginning is not defined…
3) πρὸς is inaccurately translated by ‘with’ which is not a perfect translation for an accusative word following it. A good translation would be : towards, according to, in reference to, facing to…
Now let us keep the purity of the literal translation while being more readable:
In a beginning is the Logos, and the Logos is facing the Elohim, and the Logos is Divine(Elohim)
Hi Lion,
Please translate Isaiah 38:13.
I have repeatedly challenged you to translate this verse (as have others on the blog), and you have repeatedly ignored me. I give you the benefit of doubt: perhaps you haven’t seen it. So I shall repeat this challenge at every opportunity, God willing.
Good luck!
Shalom Dina!
Thank you for your request to help us better understand the Tanakh!
Here is the Hebrew : שִׁוִּיתִי עַד־בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי מִיּוֹם עַד־לַיְלָה תַּשְׁלִימֵנִי
”I availed until morning they digging so he will break all my dual-substance (my self) from day to night you will make us complete”
The Hebrew text does not warrant as a lion for it does not fit. Again proper translation by digging in prayer open us a profound meaning.
It’s more of a matter that yours is the flawed and incoherent translation. The lion fits quite nicely in the poetic nature of the composition of Hezekiah. Here is the more appropriate poetic flow.
My dwelling was removed and exiled from me like a shepherd’s tent; like a weaver I have shortened my life.
He will end my life with sickness; from morning to night You will put an end to me.
I waited until morning as if it were a lion, so my sickness would shatter all my bones; from morning to night You will put an end to me.
Like a swallow and a crane, so do I chirp; I moan like a pigeon. My eyes were raised on high.
My Lord, snatch away my illness, be my surety.
You see, what YOU write is gibberish in comparison. You see, “like a lion”, “like a swallow”, “like a crane”, “like a pigeon”. What WE can say is you WANT one instance of Ka’ari to mean your J’sus so as a result you have to twist the Entire Tanach so as Not to be caught up in a grave mistake.
Sharbano your translation is not prophetic and vain poetry is not the intent of Isaiah. Your translation in English does not reflect the deep spiritual and prophetic power of the Tanakh.
I stick with my translation which respect the literal ancient Hebrew and its syntax conveying the power of Scriptures to reveal and transform our being.
כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי For example your translation does not respect the dual form commonly used in ancient Hebrew. Your translation translated by the expression ‘all my bones’ where the literal dual form conveys another meaning: ‘my dual-substance’ here meaning spirit and flesh will be broken by the digging of the mysterious they for their digging will prepare the terrain of my self to the action of the transformation of my being to become complete by the Elohim.
Here is the Hebrew : שִׁוִּיתִי עַד־בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי מִיּוֹם עַד־לַיְלָה תַּשְׁלִימֵנִי
”I availed until morning they digging so he will break all my dual-substance (my self) from day to night you will make us complete”
You really need to quit using Strong’s for your translation and understanding. That is why you ALWAYS write “literal ancient Hebrew”. You have yet to be forthcoming in WHERE your knowledge of ancient Hebrew comes from. Don’t give us this ruach nonsense because it that were the case then you would be able to translate every known language there is, And you would be required to prove it.
What is this all about. It is NOT a prophetic statement. It is a song of Thanksgiving composed by Hezekiah. Apparently in, “your world”, there is no room whatsoever basic thought and conveyance. If there were NO purpose for poetic language then why the songs in the Temple. Instead you come up with some esoteric meaning and impart that to all the Hebrew scriptures thus distorting anything relevant. What IS for certain is that you have literally “DUG” yourself a hole by which you cannot escape. To do so would reveal how far you Have strayed. For so is the reason to use the cop-out of “ancient Hebrew” and thus cannot divulge WHERE your so-called knowledge comes from. Look at the final words of Hezekiah’s song.
Hashem said he would save me; let us play my songs all the days of our lives, in the Temple of Hashem.
You see EL, the words of Hezekiah dispute Your deep spiritual and prophetic power. Once again it is clear you don’t possess the knowledge of Hebrew because a normal person would have read the entire section, In Hebrew, to glean the context, which is necessary in Hebrew. But you, in your zeal only took the verse given and went to Strong’s to “decipher” the text and, in so doing, came to a conclusion that doesn’t correspond to the written word. It is evident that you have to mire your words in claiming knowledge of “biblical” Hebrew in order to mask ignorance of Actual Hebrew.
Lion, your ignorance of Biblical Hebrew is as vast and deep as the ocean.
Let us set aside the complete gibberish that you have rendered this verse in translation and let us examine the word כארי. You see, you do not know how to conjugate verbs in Hebrew. There is no such form of a verb in Hebrew that is plural and in the present tense. Let us say that there is a verb in Hebrew with the letters כאר. There isn’t, but let us say for argument’s sake. In Biblical Hebrew it would be conjugated like this:
Past tense:
כארתי (I)
כארת (you masculine singular)
כארת you masculine singular)
כאר (he)
כארה (she)
כארנו (we)
כארתם (you masculine plural)
כארתן (you feminine plural)
כארו (they masculine)
כארו (they feminine)
Present Tense:
כואר (masculine singular)
כוארת (feminine singular)
כוארים (masculine plural)
כוארות (feminine plural)
Future Tense:
אכאור (I)
תכאור (you masculine singular)
תכארי (you masculine singular)
יכאור (he)
תכאור (she)
נכאור (we)
תכארו (you masculine plural)
תכארנה (you feminine plural)
יכארו (they masculine)
תכארנה (they feminine)
This is the silliest exercise I have ever engaged in and would have been entirely unnecessary if you had even a rudimentary grasp of Biblical Hebrew. You are making a fool of yourself. If your ruach had any sense it would advise you to stop arguing about a language you don’t know with people who are fluent in it.
By the way, עצמות means bones, there’s no two ways about it, your “dual substance” nonsense notwithstanding.
Dina you started with insults. Like always you denigrate others and do the virgin offended when you are in return being offended.
But just let us set aside your vitriol and concentrate on your mistakes:
1) you assume that ancient Hebrew = modern Hebrew
2) you are unaware of any ancient dual Hebrew form (I think you do not know what dual form is)
3) even your modern Hebrew is deficient for the future tense is not accurate (if you need it I will give you a lesson on how to modernly do it)
4) you are not aware of the present participle or if you are then just gave us its rendering
5) Yiddish is not Hebrew as an example Persian writes with Arabic letters but it is not Arabic but Persian
6) כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי bones can not be rendered here for again you miss the ancient dual form of the Hebrew making your translation an absurdity : my two(dual) bones if עַצְמוֹתָי would have been plural I might have conceded bones as a probable translation
7) you better study ancient Hebrew with people who knows not American or European Jews who are very deficient in the orthodox knowledge of ancient Hebrew
Shalom!!
To the King of Insulting and Denigrating Others:
I will leave it to the audience to decide which one of us understands Biblical Hebrew and which one of us is blowing a lot of hot air, or should I say, hot ruach.
If your knowledge is So great why do you fear and are so reluctant to give details on your background in knowledge. It has been asked previously for others of your persuasion and resources for a clearer understanding but any questions in this matter are surreptitiously ignored. Now why is that. Why is there such apprehension to be forthcoming. Will you deny you use Strong’s or some similar lexicon for your biblical references. That is a straightforward yes or no answer.
Hi Lion,
And your point is what? That logos should be understood as Jesus here and in a few other instances and not in the other 295 instances where it appears in the Greek NT?
Did you even other to watch the videos or read the condensed version of the argument?
David, lion relies on his own information, known only to himself.
David, I’m well aware of the usages and meanings of Logos in Greek sources, and In Philo of Alexandria’s works. I myself was raised to believe that Jesus was not G-d, a non trinitarian, but I came to understand later that the deity of Jesus is unambiguously taught and especially implied in certain NT books, though, clearly it’s not in all of them, but even if it weren’t, Jesus is still regarded as the central figure to Christians trinitarian or not. A paraphrase from Dr. Anthony buzzard’s debate with Dr. Michael Brown The Great Trinity Debate, will illustrate the problem.
Dr. Buzzard: “If G-d ordains that his firstborn Son, the sinless lamb should be served by humankind, then I see no contradiction with the Shema there. He is still the sinless lamb, but not G-d, mediator but not G-d. If G-d ordains it, we must accept it.”
The point that Dr. Buzzard and most other Unitarians miss is that the issue with Christianity for Judaism goes far deeper than whether Jesus was a created son of G-d, or the eternal expression of G-d’s wisdom, ie logos. It goes beyond the question of is he created or uncreated. Beyond the question of alleged Messiahship.
Granting the Unitarian premise that Jesus IS NOT G-d still leaves you with the same problem as in trinitariarism, namely, that Jesus’ person is the central focus of the NT books and teaching, and not G-d the father and his commandments outlined in the Torah that he gave Jews on Sinai to follow forever.
Unitarian Christians with all their nuances still see Jesus as the “only way” to the father, just in a different way, because that is what’s taught in the New Testament. The Hebrew Bible has never taught that there is only one way to reach G-d, or to be a godly person. Look in the Torah yourself, and you will see righteous Jews, and many righteous non Jews as well. A covenant that G-d makes with Israel does not cut off G-d’s ability to act through and to directly bless the Gentiles by himself for his purposes. You don’t even need to be particularly righteous to be hashem’s instrument for goodness. (See Balaam and Cyrus the great as prime examples.)
The central assumptions of Christian theology and NT teaching are that Jesus is the mediator of a “New and better covenant.” It teaches that Jesus is the “only way to reach and please the father.” Deuteronomy explicitly contradicts this idea that anyone needs to relate to HASHEM in a “new and better” way. G-d is beyond the category of old and new better and worse. G-d saved and used many people with no respect paid to their ideological bent, or even their ability to follow every jot and tittle. Jews do not teach that Christians are beyond being godly, far from it, only that the Torah by itself is sufficient revelation of who G-d is, and what he expects from Jews. Further, Jews are commanded to reject any notions that their fathers did not know.
Hi C.R.
Actually it’s not a point that’s missed at all by Sir Anthony Buzzard, or I suspect any other like minded person.
The first Christians were non-Trinitarians (unless you accept the unsupportable Trinitarian story line that Jesus and the first Christians were Trinitarian).
The problem Jews had with Jesus was not that he claimed to be God (as claimed by Trinitarians), it was that he claimed to be the Son of God; and as He said, the one spoken of in the law and prophets (meaning Hebrew Scriptures); in other words, the Messiah.
Saul didn’t go around rounding up Christians because they were worshiping a false god, or a Trinity, but because they believed the Messiah had come and that Jesus was he, and that they were therefore also changing custom of worship and their thinking.
You mention Deuteronomy which informs us that God would send another prophet or prophets; the NT confirms that Jesus is the prophet spoken of. We are instructed to listen to this prophet. Then the only question is whether Jesus is in fact the prophet spoken of.
If not, reject him as the Messiah he claims to be. But if so, accept him as the Messiah he claims to be.
The Jews were not singled out and set aside as an end in itself but to be a light unto the nations. The fact that God wants all men (not just Jews) to come to him was not an after thought that God came to with the Jews, but was planned as far back as Genesis 3:15.
David, to be a son of Eloah or to proclaim yourself the Messiah is not motif to kill a man unless Yahushuo was considered a false prophet teaching idolatry or the worship of himself. Obviously non-trinatarian are contra-Christian History and anti-Christ by the fact they deny the Eternal Messiah who is Elohei Israel, the Dabar in the Flesh.
7 For many seducers have come out into the world, those not confessing Yahushuo Messiah coming in flesh: this is the seducer and the anti-messiah. 8 Discern yourselves, in order that we may not destroy utterly what we labored, but rather a reward complete that we may receive. 9 Each and every one departing and not abiding in the teaching of the Messiah Elohim he keeps not; the one abiding in the teaching of the Messiah, this one also the father also the son he holds. 10 If anyone comes to you and this the teaching he brings not, receive him not into home, even to give him joy speak not; 11 indeed the one speaking to him to rejoice partakes to his evil deeds. (2 John, chap. 1; translated from the Greek)
John is very clear on the claim. For Jewish thought that was difficult to accept specially for the scribes and pharisees which interpretation of the Torah was like the Muslim a God alone with Himself.
Plus Yahushuo is not the Prophet predicted by Moseh for this Prophet was to be before the Messianic reign. Study careully for a lot of mistake in the interpretation of the Messiac Reign and the coming of the Prophet and the return of Eliyahu…
Obviously men can not graps everything for only those instructed by the Ruah Holy can comprehend the whole truth like John Gospel predicted…
Good study!!
Saul didn’t go around rounding up Christians because they were worshiping a false god, or a Trinity, but because they believed the Messiah had come and that Jesus was he, and that they were therefore also changing custom of worship and their thinking.
That’s a total misconception of the facts of Jewish history and practice David. It’s not at all a crime to claim to be the messiah in Jewish law or religion, any Jew is free to claim they are messiah, and DO THE JOB. There have been literally thousands of would be messiahs in ancient times, (and even today.) The misplaced idea that Jesus or his students were punished by Saul or the chief priests, just because he claimed to be the messiah is just plain ridiculous. The claim that Saul persecuted early followers of Jesus because of Jesus’ alleged Messiahship is totally unfounded historically speaking. Jesus died for one reason. He upset the Romans and was charged BY THEIR APPOINTED PRIESTS with sedition like thousands of other Jews who died the same way Jesus did.
Caiaphas was a Roman appointed sadduceean high priest. He did not represent the majority of the Jewish people in the second temple period, or their national interests. Jesus (in the gospel of john at least,) is accused of blasphemy, not because he said, “I am messiah,” but because (to the author of John’s community) Jesus is claiming divinity. We know this is true because the priest in John rends his garments. One only rends garments in the cases of death and SEVERE BLASPHEMY.
No way would Jesus have died (by Jewish hands) by claiming he was messiah.
Also, there was NO WAY that the chief priests could have had Jesus executed by Torah standards, because in Roman times Jews had no autonomy to try capital cases or carry out the death penalty. You had to let the Romans do it. If Jews had been responsible for a death penalty, Jesus would have been stoned to death, not hung on a cross, as that is the penalty. Also, his “trial” likely would have been dismissed as it was not carried out properly at all.
Jesus was crucified (a Roman punishment,) by Roman appointed authorities, and sent to die by a Roman Procurater.
A most excellent point(s)
Hi C.R.
Not all those who claimed to be Messiah or supported one’s claim to be Messiah (as John the Baptist) were “in your face” critical of the ruling establishment as were Jesus and John the Baptist.
Furthermore, Israel has a history of executing prophets as noted by several authors such as O. Steck who traces it from the Hebrew Scriptures, Apocrypha, and Pseudepigrapha, Josephus, and the New Testament. H.J. Schoeps shows that motivation of the murder of the prophets to be a traditional one that surfaces in apocryphal literature.
And Rome put down numerous uprisings and threats of rebellion through similar executions.
So whether you want to blame Rome or the Jews is kind of besides the point for our debate. Either way there was plenty of reason for either to want him dead without there needing to be a claim of being God.
And your verse wherein you say Jesus claims to be God where the priest tore his robe is not as you say.
Read:
Matthew 26:63,64,65
63 But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath before the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you,
From now on you will see the Son of Man
seated at the right hand of Power
and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy.
Regarding the discipline/persecution of some of the followers:
From the records of Qumran caves we know that one method of discipline was suspension for up to two years. In severe cases of discipline they were expelled permanently.
We don’t know specifically all the reasons in all cases and in what manner for each case the early church was disciplined by Saul. But from the perspective of the non-Christian Jews it more than likely seen as discipline. From the perspective the Christian Jews it was probably seen as persecution.
Claudia Setzer gives us some insight in this regard.
Claudia Setzer in her 1994 book “Jewish Responses to Early Christian History and Polemics, 30 -150 C.E.”
Writes on page 11
Paul might have persecuted some early Christians for disloyalty to the Jerusalem Temple. Stephen’s speech and the charges against him reflect a rejection of the continuing validity of the Temple and its rituals. Stephen and others suffered a selective persecution, while the apostles probably escaped persecution because they remained loyal to the Temple.
The practice of circumcision and the rituals of the Temple are, after all, aspects of Torah-observance. Even the objection to claims of Jesus’ messiahship may stem from the pronouncement in Deut 21:23, “for anyone hung on a tree is under God’s curse.” Acts reports a list of overlapping charges against Christians in the 30s – proclaiming Jesus’ resurrection (4:2), teaching in Jesus’ name (5:28, blasphemy, speaking against the Temple, speaking against the Law, changing Mosaic customs (6: 11 – 14). Similarly, Paul alludes to both circumcision and “the cross” as problematic issues that engendered persecution (Gal 5:11; 6:12). The proclamation of Jesus’ messiahship and death on the cross provided the rationale, in some cases, for the rejection of the obligation to perform parts of the Law.
Page 22
The charges of persecution, impiety, and misanthropy culminate in the final charge that the Jews were trying to prevent Christian missionaries from preaching to the Gentiles. What is at issue here may be … the failure of some preachers to demand circumcision of their gentile converts to Christianity, laxity in Torah observance, proclamation of a crucified criminal as the Messiah, or preaching against the Jerusalem Temple. At least three of these issues caused problems among Christian Jews themselves. Would not non-Christian Jews have had even less reason to be sympathetic?
Page 23
It is nearly impossible to know if from the point of view of the Jews the anti-Christian action was meant as punishment of unruly insiders –implying their continued inclusion, or is meant to widen the distance between the community and people it views as outsiders, but may not be considered so by Rome. If the Jews were motivated by fear of Roman reaction, that would mean there was enough contact between the Christians and other Jews that the Romans were capable of seeing them as still part of the same community. One could say the same about the specific issue of speaking to the Gentiles. The Jews may have worried that they would be guilty by association with Jewish Christian missionaries and incur Roman displeasure. Or the Jews may have had their own theological investment in discouraging preaching to Gentiles; they might not have appreciated gentile converts to Christianity calling themselves “the true Israel” or the “chosen people” (1 Peter 1:2).
David wrote: “Furthermore, Israel has a history of executing prophets as noted by several authors such as O. Steck who traces it from the Hebrew Scriptures, Apocrypha, and Pseudepigrapha, Josephus, and the New Testament. H.J. Schoeps shows that motivation of the murder of the prophets to be a traditional one that surfaces in apocryphal literature.”
David, I know I am probably your least favorite interlocutor on this blog (actually, I think you hate my guts), but for the sake of the truth I am requesting that you read the articles linked below. You may find them lacking, but I think it’s fair to listen to both sides before coming to a conclusion.
http://jeffjewish.blogspot.com/2015/01/did-jews-kill-prophets.html
This next one is an argument against the Koran’s accusation of Jewish prophet killing. Fascinatingly, the Christian author seems unaware that his own scripture makes the same accusation.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/jews_killed_prophets.html
Here’s another:
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/4461/Did-the-Jews-kill-the-prophets#.VZX0p_lVhBc
And here is an interesting one by an atheist.
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/1kill96.html
Given what J’sus said about this he should have pulled “the beam out of his Own Eye first”.
Well, I read through that chapter you quoted, and I must say it Really sounds suspicious.
Hi Dina,
You didn’t disprove my citation. 3 of your references are only disparagement of the NT and one reference addresses the Quran.
My statement that the Israelites killed their Prophets came from authors who referenced the Hebrew Scriptures and other writings, and NOT the NT.
To add to my previous claim, they also threatened to kill some, mistreated some and imprisoned others.
If we look to just the Hebrew Scriptures, NOT the NT, here’s what I found separate and apart from the cited authors:
Moses: Life threatened with stoning: Numbers 14
Aaron: Life threatened with stoning along with Moses
Jeremiah:
Mistreated, imprisoned and life threatened multiple times. Jeremiah 38:4, 16; 26:8; 11:21; 18:18; 20:2;
Unnamed prophets killed with the sword. Jeremiah 2:30.
Uriah son of Shemaiah:
Killed with the sword by King Jehoiakim. Jeremiah 26:23
Elijah:
Life threatened. 1 Kings 19:2
100s of unnamed prophets during the time Elijah murdered.
1 Kings 18:4,13; 1 Kings 19:10, 14; 2 Kings 9:7
Unnamed prophets referenced as being killed during a time of disobedience and rebellion when they cast the Law behind their backs (my guess is this may have been during the time of Judges). Nehemiah 9:26
Elisha:
Life threatened by beheading. 2 Kings 6:31
Micaiah:
Imprisoned, placed on reduced rations of bread and water. 2 Chronicles 18:25, 26
David,
I linked articles that investigate the charge that the Jews killed the prophets to see if it is a fair one. The question is not whether these articles disparage the NT or not; the question is whether the charge true or false, and whether the articles support their conclusion with evidence that the charge is false.
With this perspective in mind, I suggest you reread the articles and see if you can disprove the findings that this is a baseless charge.
I explained why I added the link about the Koran. The Koran makes the same charge as your NT about Jews killing the prophets; therefore, the argument against the charge in the Koran applies equally to the charge in Christian scripture. That is why that article was not irrelevant. (To me, it was interesting to note, as I had said previously, that the Christian author failed to recognize that his own scripture makes the same charge against the Jews.)
I am saving your comment in my email Inbox so I can check all your references, as I do not have the time right now. But based on what you presented, it is interesting to note how in the thousand-plus-year history of Biblical prophecy, you could find practically nothing to substantiate the charge that the Jews have a tradition of prophet killing. Just based on what you found, you showed threats, imprisonment, and mistreatment, with only ONE instance of a minor prophet killed by ONE person, not the act of a whole nation, and ONE instance of unnamed prophets being killed.
I suspect that many of these are presented with missing information, so I need to do some further investigating. But just what you provided is very, very weak. It does not support the accusations of 1 Thessalonians 2:14,15; Luke 11:47-48; Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34.
I also note that you “found [citations] separate and apart from the cited authors.” I’m curious why you haven’t presented evidence from Hebrew scripture that those authors cited. What is that evidence?
If this is all you have, then it’s terrible to continue charging us with murdering our prophets.
Now here’s a question that’s been troubling me about your concept of murderous Jews. In 2000 years of Christian history, we see so much more bloodshed. Christians did not only murder Jews, the number of which amounted to the millions over the centuries, but also murdered their own. Martin Luther encouraged the brutal repression of a peasant revolt that resulted in the murder of about 100,000 peasants. Catholics and Protestants killed each other over their differing beliefs. Tens of thousands of “witches” were killed with no evidence. Criminals were hanged for petty offenses such as stealing a loaf of bread. The history of Christianity is soaked with blood.
My question is, why do reserve your harshest criticism for a non-violent people which has not persecuted or murdered since our Temple was destroyed, and even today show incredible restraint under terrorist attacks? Why do you not look at your own history and see how much worse, how much vastly worse, it was than the worst periods of Jewish history?
Why can Christians say, “Those weren’t real Christians,” but Jews can’t say, “Those weren’t real Jews; those weren’t Jews who were faithful to God and His Torah”?
Why the double standard?
E.L.
The references in 1st and 2nd John are to “Jesus Christ” coming in the flesh; not God coming in the flesh.
And note that any spirit that does not acknowledge this is not from God.
David you are an intelligent man. Did you ever asked yourself why John said:
”7 For many seducers have come out into the world, those not confessing Yahushuo Messiah coming in flesh: this is the seducer and the anti-messiah.”
If he was a mere man why the expression COMING IN THE FLESH. All men are flesh. This suppose that the Messiah existed before his Coming in the Flesh. Do you see…
Hi E.L.
Because some were teaching at the time that Jesus was spirit, and not a man.
David wrote: “The problem Jews had with Jesus was not that he claimed to be God (as claimed by Trinitarians), it was that he claimed to be the Son of God; and as He said, the one spoken of in the law and prophets (meaning Hebrew Scriptures); in other words, the Messiah.”
This is not correct. The Jews have never had a problem with anyone who claims to be the Messiah, since those type of claimants have been a dime a dozen and no one cared. Nor is it a problem to claim to be a son of God, as we are all God’s children.
In fact, the Jews would have had no problem with the early Christian Jews had the movement remained Jewish. These Jews were Torah observant and did not view Jesus as a deity. They would have quietly died out or been reabsorbed into the nation. The problem began when the Gentile followers of Jesus tried to force Jews to accept him as their lord and savior and to worship him as they did, concepts that were totally foreign to Judaism.
“Saul didn’t go around rounding up Christians because they were worshiping a false god, or a Trinity, but because they believed the Messiah had come and that Jesus was he, and that they were therefore also changing custom of worship and their thinking.”
This is also inaccurate. If Paul did indeed work for the High Priest, then he was a Sadducee (not a Pharisee as he claimed). The Sadducees were Roman quislings; a claim by any individual to be king of the Jews was a direct threat to Rome and punishable by execution, specifically crucifixion, which the Romans reserved for political crimes. That is the reason someone working for the Sadducean High Priest would have been hounding Christians.
The idea that Paul would have been a Pharisee working for the Sadducean High Priest is ludicrous because the Pharisees and Sadducees were deeply opposed to each other.
“You mention Deuteronomy which informs us that God would send another prophet or prophets; the NT confirms that Jesus is the prophet spoken of. We are instructed to listen to this prophet. Then the only question is whether Jesus is in fact the prophet spoken of.”
Deuteronomy 13 and 18:22 tell us how to identify the false prophet. Deut 18:22 tells us that if a prophet gives a sign and it doesn’t come to pass, then he is a false prophet. According to your own scripture, Jesus promised the Pharisees the sign of his resurrection but failed to appear to them, thus failing this prophet test according to the testimony of Christian scripture itself. But Deuteronomy 13 goes one step further: even if the prophet does perform miracles and gives signs that do come to pass (even if Jesus really had been resurrected, for instance), but if he introduces a new type of worship that was unknown to our fathers then he is certainly a false prophet. The idea that “no one comes to the Father but by me” was a new type of worship unknown to our fathers, not taught by Moses; also the idea that one must accept Jesus as his lord and savior to gain atonement and eternal life was not taught by Moses (in fact, Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18, and Ezekiel 33 teach the very opposite); these and other Christian doctrines constituted a foreign worship and thus the Pharisees were obligated to reject Jesus as the Torah prescribes.
Finally, what does Genesis 3:15 have to do with all of this?
9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses. 10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door. 11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33)
“the pillar of smoke stood at the door” This is not a man. All the people saw the “pillar of cloud standing at the door”. They did not see a man either. Only you do.
Larry I just quoted Exodus no comment from my part. Your are making your own projection…
Now take this quote and explain if you can:
”9 For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.” (Psalm 36)
Of whom is the psalmist talking??
you tell me
EL
Deut. 5:4 says that God spoke with the people “face to face” out of the fire. So, “face to face” is figurative language, not literal, when talking about God.
Larry I will:
“For with You is the fountain of life”, note that the psalmist did not say You are the fountain of life for how the Infinite Elohim can be restrain to a fountain. Each time that Holy Scriptures uses an object to describe the Infinite Elohim we must see the Eternal Messiah in the Flesh. Why? For with You(YHWH Elohim) he is… For he is the Master of Time and Space… The Word (Dabar) in the Flesh…
The second part says: “In Your light we (shall) see light” Here is the many facet of this diamond:
1)Here in the light of the Resurrection we will see the transcendent and eternal light.
2) In Your Dabar(Word) we see the Eternal Light
3) In Your Image (Eternal Messiah in the Flesh) we have the ability by the light of his Resurrection to see the Supreme Light
One verse in the Tanakh being the word of Eloah have an infinite amplitude to those who have the Faith
4)In your light (Resurrected Body=Faith=Messiah=the accomplishment of Torah and the Prophets) we shall see YOU the Supreme Ineffable Light
The Resurrected Messiah give us the capacity to contemplate the ineffable Light and to become sons of the Most High. That is the Promise to those who believe in Him and obey his Commandments. And the accomplishment of his Commandments reside in the Living Torah through Communion to his Resurrected Flesh in the perpetual sacrifice to the One Elohim enabling us to grow to the full stature of the Son of Righteousness…
EL
That’s amazing. We go from 2 sentences to 4 paragraphs. Spoken like a true Christian.
I think you have to read 9 and 10 in context.. 9 From your delightful stream you give them to drink.10 For with you is the fountain of life. Then Light is the symbol of goodness and happiness ; hence- Through your goodness we enjoy true happiness. NAB
Larry my lens his the Faith, the Resurrection what are your lens… your own self…
Try to explain that:
“12There the workers of iniquity have fallen;
They have been cast down and are not able to rise.” (Psalm 36)
Contradicting Yisroel interpretation that Yahushuo could have rise and be a false prophet. That lens of interpretation is corrupt and wicked for it will contradict the Promise made to our forefathers.
EL
What do you mean “my lens his the Faith, the Resurrection”. .?
Larry you said I see with the Christian view. What is the real Christian view: the lens of the Faith the Resurrection from which we see light.
What is your light your lens to see and understand Scriptures?
EL
Sorry but I still do not understand what “the Faith the Resurrection from which we see light” means. Do you mean “the Faith in the Resurrection from which we see the light” ?
Hi Dina,
You contradict yourself.
You have gone on record many times as to how Jesus was not Torah observant in many ways. And you know as well as I do and as I’ve cited above how Israel has had a long history of mistreating their prophets. Jesus was an in your face prophet, highly critical of the authority.
Not only that but you and others have said that the Romans killed Jesus. Why would they kill him? Some (maybe even you) have postulated here that he was leading an uprising which Rome put down as with so many others. The Jews would have wanted to distance themselves from the sect and persecution from the Romans.
Now you say everything was hunky dory. The Jews would not have seen first Christian Jews as being non-Torah observant as their ring leader or as being a threat to their security by way of the Romans.
Hi David,
I will try to clear up the confusion of my view of Jesus’s Torah observance or lack thereof.
I have not read all of CS, just the first two gospels and part of Luke. However, as a Torah-observant Jew raised in the Pharisaic tradition, I recognized Jesus as being a Torah-observant Jew likewise in the Pharisaic tradition, albeit one who played hard and fast with the rules and therefore violated some of them.
However, I do not believe CS is reliable. I do not believe that Jesus said many of the things attributed to him, especially those that directly contradict the Torah. I also believe that the conflict between him and the Pharisees is played up in CS. We know from the historical record that the Pharisees co-existed with many sects that committed worse transgressions than the early Christians, such as the Sadducees and even the Zealots. Besides, under Roman rule they would not have had the power to punish transgressors.
Some scholars have argued, as William Nicholls does in his otherwise excellent “Christian Anti-Semitism,” that the Jewish leadership may have reluctantly handed Jesus over to the Roman authorities to save the rest of them from retaliation by Rome for Jesus’s insurrection against her. However, my view is that this is speculation and we will never really know anything about Jesus, since he left no writings about himself and what was recorded about him was written decades after his death.
Following.
Con hope you had a peaceful Shabat!
Thank you for your post here! I will respond that I agree that the Commandments are central to the Torah. That by obeying them we get closer to the One Elohim. That by obeying them we prove our faithfulness and love toward our Father in the heavens.
Therefore our debate should end here for my goal is certainly not to divert anybody from Torah but quite the contrary, my goal is to bring back all to the pure Obedience of the Torah.
You will ask me about the Messiah role in all of this. I will respond that his mission was to bring back the lost sheep of the House of Israel. That he came for the sinners not the tzadik. You can not deny progress toward the observance of Torah in many aspect of society compared to pagan Rome and all the pagan nations of the past.
The seed of the Gospel converted many pagans to the worship of Elohei Israel. That is a fact! That you accuse after the Christian of worshipping the Dabar Elohim in the Messiah make you enter the debate on the nature of the Elohim which no human being can grasp completely.
Let us therefore educate the world to the obedience of the Commandments Yehudim and Goyim, Israel and the Nations, house Yehudah and house Israel…
Let us build a better place where we love our neighbours and where we are living examples of the Beauty of Torah loving YHWH with all our heart, soul and might. That is the road to life!!
P.S.: When we look towards Yehudah or Israel we have a lot of work to do: doing repentance and purifying our soul. May YHWH have mercy on us and may his patience towards us bring us more closer to Him! May his Hand purifies us in his holy fire that we may light the nations to the warmth and beauty of his Holy Torah!
Eliyahu
It is a fact that the gospel brought many pagans to hate God’s firstborn son and to persecute them – you cannot deny this
Hi Yisroel,
I don’t share your conclusion. It is the twisting of Scripture that has led to many atrocities, not the Scripture itself.
But if you want to be consistent about your condemnation of Scripture, you’d have to say that the Hebrew Scriptures brought many Jews of the 1st century to hate and persecute their fellow Jews of the new sect.
Or that Solomon felt justified in conscripting and enslaving the Canaanites to build his temple under forced labor as foreign pagans were seen as 2nd class citizens at best and valued only for their exploitation potential. Where are their descendants today? Some argue they are the Palestinians who just want to live in peace where they always have if not for the fact they’ve been hated and persecuted from the time of the arrival of the Israelites.
But again, I believe in both cases it was and is the twisting of Scripture, not the Scripture itself.
Antisemite.
Troll.
David, get your facts straight before spewing antisemitic venom.
Click to access MythsEnglish2012.pdf
Hi Dina
Are you saying that Solomon did not conscript the Canaanites into slave labor to build his temple?
If you could find their descendants today would you thank them for their servitude and apologize for your ancestors?
David, did you bother reading the link I posted, which did not address Solomon at all but your ridiculous charge that the Jews persecute and hate the Palestinians, who are the descendants of those Canaanites (two lies)?
“If you could find their descendants today would you thank them for their servitude and apologize for your ancestors?”
I find it vile that you would ask this particular question. For a Christian who represents a legacy of the systematic persecution, torture, and murder of the Jewish people, which amounted to millions of deaths over the centuries and only ended about fifty years ago, to demand that a Jew apologize for a 3,000-year-old-event when the living descendants of those Jews are right in front of his eyes and ready to hear his apology, is the height of hypocrisy. You are holding me to a vastly higher double standard than you hold yourself. For all I know, your great-great grandfather might have murdered mine.
But one thing is for sure, mine didn’t murder yours.
The hatred of the Christians toward Jews spilled over not only into persecutions but into volumes of diatribes against the Jews, starting with the Christian scriptures. On the other hand, the Jews, who had the most right to be bitter and to hate their persecutors, wrote almost nothing about Christians, although they too were prolific writers. Who has the moral high ground, then?
There is no historical evidence of Jewish persecution of the early church, only unsubstantiated claims, as we showed you a long time ago, David. You are still clinging to this false narrative, I wonder why?
The only “evidence” comes from your Christian scripture, which contains many vicious lies about the Jews that are responsible for the massive persecution of Jews that lasted for the better part of 2000 years. This is not me speaking, it’s history. Read some history written by historians and scholars, why don’t you?
Only since the 1960s have Christians begun to claim that Christians who hate Jews twist their scriptures and that real Christians love Jews. Until then, antisemitism was a respectable institution. Antisemites were not the social outcasts they have become today (although they are quickly regaining respectability).
Hi Dina,
I think most reasonable people, including Jews and other non Christians agree that the Jews of the early Church, which was seen by many if not most other Jews as a defiant sect or cult were in fact persecuted to some extent.
And if, as you and some others are fond of claiming, Christianity tries and has always tried to pull Jews into idolatry, you’d have to admit that the Hebrew Scriptures calls for that behavior to be addressed.
What does the Law of Moses require in regards to what you perceive to be your fellow Jew enticing others to commit idolatry?
So is it so far fetched as you claim that Jews would take action against other Jews? You want to believe that Judaism was one long peace and love event throughout history? Ok, but that’s not biblical. Your living in your own fantasy world.
Mr. Blumenthal claims that the NT brought many “pagans” (read Christians) to hate and persecute Jews. According to Mr. Blumenthal this is a fact that cannot be denied.
Really? which part of the NT instructs us to hate and persecute Jews?
Do we have a name for anti paganism or anti Christianism as we do for anti Semitism?
Perhaps we could agree on something there.
“You want to believe that Judaism was one long peace and love event throughout history? Ok, but that’s not biblical. Your [sic] living in your own fantasy world.”
I have never argued that the Jewish factions were always at peace with each other; you are putting words in my mouth. It is well known that the Second Temple factions were quite fractious. It is also well-known from sources outside your NT that the Pharisees were the most tolerant of the lot. But all theses factions were positively loving compared to the behavior of Christians toward each other. Among the factions of the Second Temple period, there was nothing like the bloody wars between Protestants and Catholics, the eradication of heretical sects, the tens of thousands of murders of supposed witches, and so on.
There is no evidence whatsoever, outside your NT, that the Pharisees persecuted the early Christians–who by the way did not worship Jesus as God. The Ebionites, for example, rejected Pauline doctrine which deified Jesus and which Gentiles–not Jews, not even the Jewish followers of Jesus–accepted. So it’s not likely they would have been persecuted for worshiping idols.
Rabbi Blumenthal is correct that your NT caused persecution of the Jewish people. This is not only his opinion but the opinion of scholars and historians that have actually studied the history, something you won’t do because of your limited access to books (in which case you should humbly acknowledge that you know too little about the subject to argue intelligently about it).
The NT doesn’t outright say, “Thou shalt hate and persecute the Jew,” but there are loads of passages that support a hatred for Jews. In the NT, Jews are children of the devil, liars, and murderers, hypocrites, a brood of vipers, responsible for all murders since Abel, the killers of Jesus, hostile to all men–you would be strange not to hate such people.
The fact is, the hatred and killing of Jews was motivated by religious fervor. It is indeed an undeniable fact. You prefer to hide your head in the sand and deny this. Well, that’s your choice. May God have mercy on your soul.
“I think most reasonable people, including Jews and other non Christians agree…” The problem with this statement is that historical fact doesn’t arise from what most people would agree. We can only argue about verifiable, historical facts. Everything else is a waste of time.
Hi Dina,
Perhaps the attempted genocide throughout the massive Persian Empire as told in the book of Esther and the opposition to the rebuilding of the 2nd temple was a secret plot by Pagan (read Christian) time travelers who then wrote the NT to continue their diabolical scheme.
Or do you think it’s possible that the Pagan-Jew Jesus is really Haman reincarnated to inspire hate and persecution against those unwilling to convert to paganism?
David, I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
I will assume that you are you trying to say that the history of Christian persecution of Jews is a fabrication made up by conspiracy theorists and that Christian scripture (such as the examples I cited) had nothing to do with it–despite the fact that serious scholars and historians whose works you refuse to read (although you can find quite a lot of material on the Internet) present just the facts, ma’am. Please let me know if my assumption is incorrect.
If I am correct, however, I believe you are implying this because you have no argument. You made some unsubstantiated claims; either back them up or admit your errors.
Here are your false statements:
1. The Jews persecuted the early Christians.
2. Today’s Palestinians are the descendants of the original Canaanites who provided the labor to build Solomon’s Temple. All they want is to live in peace on their own land.
3. Today’s Jews have hated and persecuted the Palestinians.
These are typical anti-Semitic talking points, and lies to boot.
Will you have the courage and humility to admit your errors? I hope so. I would like to be able to respect you.
Dina,
You Dina, project your anti-paganism unto Christians today, thinking you are justified by the book YOU read. You see us as nothing more than despicable sinful pagans deserving the worst condemnation because of our pagan beliefs.
I know it’s hard to conceive while you’re sitting on your high horse pointing the accusatory anti-paganite finger, claiming that it is the NT which has led to hate and persecution of the Jews, and so you can’t seem to admit the facts as noted in the book YOU read, that the origin of what you call anti-Semitism AND anti-paganism started in the book YOU read.
You and others like you, falsely claim that the NT which pagans adhere to is the source of anti-Semitism today, and has turned the pagan world against you.
You either deny or refuse to account for the fact that there was a long history of persecution of Jews prior to the NT as noted in the book YOU read.
Consider the following regarding persecution of the Jews:
1. In the book YOU read, the Jews were persecuted in Egypt.
1. In the book YOU read, the Jews were identified as a people throughout the massive Persian empire as deserving death and persecution.
2. In the book YOU read, the Jews were opposed in their efforts to build the 2nd Temple.
Consider the following in the book YOU read regarding you ancestors’ persecution of pagans, which initiated the beginning of anti-paganism, something you seem to be proud of.
1. The Jews, attempted to annihilate the Canaanites and successfully occupied their land (as they partially do today) through the attempted genocide, killing innocent men, women and children.
2. Having failed in their attempt to completely wipe out the pagan Canaanites, and seeing the Canaanite descendants as nothing more than exploitable sinful pagans, Solomon, conscripted tens of thousands into forced labor to build the first Jew Temple.
3. In the process of building the 2nd Jew Temple, the Jew men shamefully sent away their foreign pagan wives and their own children whom they fathered, seeing them as contemptible in their new found hypocritical zeal against paganism, thus turning them into bastard children.
Consider the following:
You admit that in the last decades since 1960 there has been a decrease in anti-Semitism.
You and other anti-paganites like you have claimed on this blog that it has nothing to do with reading the NT more, which you claim is a hate filled anti-Semitic book.
Well, know this, my pagan mother and my pagan wife were forbidden to read the NT. My pagan wife wasn’t even born until 1967. They both grew up in pagan Christiandom in different countries thousands of miles and decades apart, speaking different languages, but had one thing in common which was the prohibition to read the bible which of course included the NT.
At least in the cases of my mother and wife, the pagan hierarchy in Christiandom wouldn’t allow it, saying it was so holy of a book and so deep spiritually, that it would make them go insane.
So it has only been in the last decades that each has been allowed to read the bible.
In fact there are more committed pagans in Christiandom reading the bible today than ever before, thus attesting to the correlation between NT knowledge and the drop in anti-Semitism.
But you and other anti-paganites like you have claimed on this blog that it is nothing more than a big coincidence of a cultural change that has brought about the shift away from anti-Semitism in the last years.
I have a question about David which I am addressing to Jim, Concerned Reader, and any other former Christians:
Are David’s views typical for Christians? Are Christians who hold these views and believe these myths (such as those about Israel) considered anti-Semites or are they accepted by other mainstream Christians?
I’m asking because it disturbs me deeply that such visceral Jew hatred without consideration for the facts could possibly be thought respectable.
Also, do all Christians hold that the commandments of God are hateful, immoral, and unconscionable, as David says about His commandment to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan?
Thanks!
Correlation is not causation. It was the horror of the Holocaust which finally brought Christians to their senses. Now with a rising tide of anti-Semitism from the Christian Left and the extreme fringes of the Christian Right, as well as from Muslims, I fear this era is too quickly coming to an end. May the Messiah come before that happens, speedily in our days!
David, I’m rereading your comment and trying to make sense of it. So first of all, I’ll start by reiterating that I do not view Christians as pagans. I also don’t have anything against anyone of any belief as long as they are a good person. I do have a problem with racists and anti-Semites and I will call them out on it if doing so won’t get me killed. Not joking.
I also have a problem with Christian missionaries spreading misinformation about the history of my people and my faith, and I will call them out on that as well.
I can’t hate Christians because I work closely with them in my line of work and so far each one that I have encountered has been a thoroughly decent human being, so I don’t think Christians are horrible because they worship an idol (Jesus) along with God (this is called avodah zarah b’shituf and as far as I know is not considered paganism in Jewish law).
Furthermore, the Talmud teaches us that all righteous people have a place in heaven, even pagans–which means that pagans can be righteous! (I know you don’t consider the Talmud authoritative; I’m only presenting this teaching to show you what the Jewish perspective is.)
I believe the dehumanization of any people is ugly and dangerous. I see Christians as humans, some good, some bad, some in between, just like you will find in any group of people, not “as nothing more than despicable sinful pagans deserving the worst condemnation because of our pagan beliefs.” Your NT on the other hand dehumanizes us by calling us arrogant, hypocritical, children of the devil, brood of vipers, liars, murderers, responsible for all murder since Abel, killers of Jesus and hostile to all men, spiritually blind, unable to understand our own Scriptures–do you deny that these descriptions are in your scripture? Can you find anything comparable in the Talmud about Christians? Why have you not addressed this the many times I have brought it up?
So now that we got that out of the way, we need to examine some of your statements, which are quite disturbing and which sound like they were lifted from a white supremacist website, I’m horrified to note.
“You and others like you, falsely claim that the NT which pagans adhere to is the source of anti-Semitism today, and has turned the pagan world against you.”
In this statement, you misrepresented the argument. Here are the problems with your statement:
1. I “and others like me” do not consider the adherents of your NT to be pagans, nor do we consider the world we live in today to be a pagan one.
2. We did not claim that it is the source of anti-Semitism today. We do claim that it is the source of historic Christian anti-Semitism (you see, there all kinds, like Muslim anti-Semitism), and some of its influence is still present today.
3. Not only “I and others like me” make this argument, but objective scholars and historians have too (I am just a layperson). If you won’t read their books, then it’s hard to have a discussion, but I will recommend a few to those who are following this thread (for the sake of brevity I’m excluding the subtitles):
Holy Hatred by Robert Michael (history professor)
The Origins of Christian Antisemitism by John Gager (professor of religion)
Christian Antisemitism by William Nicholls (Christian theologian and professor of religion)
A Moral Reckoning by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen (the only Jew on this list)
Other books that explore the history of Christian anti-Semitism:
The Anguish of the Jews by Edward Flannery (Catholic priest)
Constantine’s Sword by James Carroll (former Catholic priest)
A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson (devout Catholic)
“You either deny or refuse to account for the fact that there was a long history of persecution of Jews prior to the NT as noted in the book YOU read.”
What is your evidence for this statement? When have I denied or refused to acknowledge that Jews were persecuted before the advent of Christianity?
It is indeed the case that the Jews were persecuted by various oppressors (such as the Egyptians, Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, Greeks, etc.) long before the NT was written. However, as John Gager and other professors of religion and history note, attacks on Jews were sporadic and unorganized. Systematic and institutionalized persecution of the Jews began under Christian rule and lasted for nearly two millennia. (More explanation is required but is too long for a comment on a blog.)
“The Jews, attempted to annihilate the Canaanites and successfully occupied their land (as they partially do today) through the attempted genocide, killing innocent men, women and children.”
The Jews were commanded to do so by God. Do you believe that the Jews had the right to judge that God’s commands were evil and to refuse to obey Him? Do you yourself believe that God’s commands are evil and immoral? Do you not believe that God promised the Land to the people of Israel? Jesus didn’t even believe that. He was a Torah observant Jew and he would have been mortified to see you criticize the God of his people like that.
Also, did you know that the Canaanites disappeared thousands of years ago? The Arabs who live in the Middle East today are descendants of Ishmael, one of Abraham’s sons. The claim that modern-day Palestinians are descendants of those Canaanites is relatively new and completely fabricated.
Your claim that the Jews partially commit genocide against the supposed descendants of the Canaanites and hate and persecute them sounds like it came from a white supremacist website. It is not a claim that is supported by the facts on the ground.
“In the process of building the 2nd Jew Temple, the Jew men shamefully sent away their foreign pagan wives and their own children whom they fathered, seeing them as contemptible in their new found hypocritical zeal against paganism, thus turning them into bastard children.”
The Jew Temple. Those Jew men. That brings up a painful memory. When I was a little girl I was walking with my brother and motorcycle roared by. The driver shouted at my brother “You [expletive] Jew boy!” I was terrified. How could you not know that these are anti-Semitic epithets? What planet are you living on?
This “shameful” act that you mentioned is described in Scripture as an act of repentance. Furthermore, their zeal against paganism is also described as part of their repentance; it is not described as hypocritical at all. Are you a judge of Scripture? Are you a judge of the words of God? Or do you believe that the Hebrew Bible, which your Jesus accepted as sacred, is worthless, subject to your withering criticism? Do you know better than God?
“But you and other anti-paganites like you have claimed on this blog that it is nothing more than a big coincidence of a cultural change that has brought about the shift away from anti-Semitism in the last years.”
What is your evidence for this statement? When have I or anyone else ever said that the shift away from anti-Semitism is nothing more than a cultural change? Many of us have said that the enormity of the Holocaust forced Christians to do some serious soul searching (not enough, in my opinion) and to recoil from the anti-Semitism that caused it.
It certainly has nothing to do with more reading of the NT. The invention of the printing press and the Protestant Reformation under Martin Luther put more bibles in the hands of more people than ever before. Many Protestants did indeed read the Bible, yet anti-Semitism in Germany continued to rise for many centuries until its culmination in the Holocaust.
In this comment, you not only refused to substantiate or retract your false statements, but you also added a few more.
My conclusion is that you have not done an exhaustive study of this subject, to understate the case. You cannot be intellectually honest if you do not study the history of Christian persecution of the Jews and its origins.
I hadn’t noticed this Until Dina referenced it.
3. In the process of building the 2nd Jew Temple, the Jew men shamefully sent away their foreign pagan wives and their own children whom they fathered, seeing them as contemptible in their new found hypocritical zeal against paganism, thus turning them into bastard children.
Are you aware they were following Torah guidelines. It wouldn’t matter if they were pagan or not. Since they were not Jews they entered into a forbidden marriage. So there is nothing related to a new found zeal against “paganism”. It as a zeal for the Torah of Hashem. And Dina is right; “Jew Temple”. That’s about as anti-Semitic as it gets. It’s not a “Jew Temple”; it’s a Temple of Hashem. Why do you think it’s place is called Kodesh Kodashim. I’m not surprised or even concerned since I have seen this result from many a Xtian who doesn’t like what they hear. It IS a typical response.
Sharbano, if it is the case that this is a typical response, then David proves the point, sadly.
Dina,
You are the most hateful anti-Pagan person I have ever had the displeasure of meeting.
David, it so happens that I am not anti anyone. I don’t care what people’s personal beliefs are, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or whatever. I also do not consider Christians to be pagans. I’m a big believer in live and let live. But I will defend my faith and my people against those who spread lies about us.
I don’t care what you are so long as you are a good person. I can’t abide racists and anti-Semites. Racism and anti-Semitism are not only evil but also stupid ideologies. I believe that you are an anti-Semite. Did you know that only anti-Semites call Jewish men “Jew men”? It’s similar to being called a “Jew boy.” Did you know that only anti-Semites buy the Arab propaganda about the only Jewish state (that they commit genocide against Arabs and hate and persecute them)? You have shown your true colors.
You have now and in the past made unsubstantiated claims about the Jewish people which you have both refused to substantiate and refused to retract. You owe an apology to the Jewish people who have suffered enough from people like you.
Here’s a question for you: do you have close personal contact with any Orthodox Jews?
Hi Dina,
You wrote:
David, I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
I will assume that you are you trying to say that the history of Christian persecution of Jews is a fabrication made up by conspiracy theorists and that Christian scripture (such as the examples I cited) had nothing to do with it
My response:
Dina, your claim has always been that the NT is a hate filled anti-Semitic book which is the direct cause of Christian persecution of Jews throughout history including the root cause of the holocaust.
If your claim is true it would mean that the writers and main characters of the NT would have to be anti-Semitic themselves. So that would mean that the writers who were Jews for the most part, for no apparent reason, hate their brothers and sisters and want others to think the same. That’s nonsense for which you have yet to even put forth a guess as to what the motivation would be?
Secondly, the writers and main character, Jesus, didn’t appear out of nowhere. They were Jews who studied and recited the Hebrew Scriptures. If it is true that they wrote with a purpose to encourage anti-Semitism, then the inspiration would have come from the tradition of what they already knew and read which was the anti-Semitism of the Hebrew Scriptures, including but not limited to that of Egypt, the Persian Empire, and the opposition to the building of the second Temple.
Furthermore, the Hebrew Scriptures are an equal opportunity offender and are steeped not only in anti-Semitism but in anti-Paganism as well including the attempted genocide of Canaan, conscription to forced labor in the building of the first Temple, and forced bastardization of Canaanite children. Perhaps you should look at the Hebrew Scriptures as a possible source for your overt antagonism towards Christianity and the NT.
Your claim, and that of your anti-pagan authors, regarding the disappearance of the Canaanites is nothing but wishful thinking.
But if true that would mean that your ancestors who were once slaves themselves in the land of Egypt, treated others even worse, intentionally pursuing and succeeding in genocide on the Canaanites, putting them to forced labor, then bastardized their own children of mixed blood, driving them out.
Hi David,
You seem to think it is impossible for Jews to be anti-Semitic. I wish it were so! In our long history of persecution, some of our greatest enemies have come from our own people, often Jews who converted to Christianity and then turned against us. Pablo Cristiani, Nicholas Donin, and Karl Marx come to mind. The psychology of the self-hating Jew is well-documented.
It is certainly possible for a group of Jews on the fringes of Jewish society to write hate speech about those who disagreed with them. However, I do not believe that with Christian scripture that is the case. CS was recorded decades after the alleged events recorded therein had transpired, by multiple authors. Scholars argue that most of these authors were not even Jewish! The authors of Mark, Luke, and John were not Jewish according to scholarly consensus. Paul, who claims to be a Pharisee, was believed by the Ebionites (an early Christian Jewish sect) to have been a failed convert to Judaism.
As for what you write, about Hebrew scripture being anti-Semitic–you write that the anti-Semitism of the authors of CS was inspired by the anti-Semitism of Hebrew scripture. I am not sure I understood you correctly, but if so, then you have admitted that CS is anti-Semitic.
Or perhaps you are saying that Hebrew scripture is anti-Semitic while CS is not anti-Semitic. I do not understand how you came to that conclusion, if that is what you are saying.
You betray your bias when you read Hebrew scripture as a condemnation of the Jewish people. Hebrew scripture, unlike the sacred text of any other religion, is a book of self-criticism as well as a collection of laws. We Jews have always read it this way, as a way to learn how to improve ourselves in our relationship with God and with our fellows. Only through the distorted lens of CS, with the view that the Jews are inherently wicked, would you see the Hebrew Bible as a work of Jew hatred. But I must say that I have never encountered a Christian who claimed the Hebrew Bible was a work of anti-Semitism.
If the Jews were indeed inherently evil, genocidal prophet murders, then surely you must believe that God was perverse in choosing them.
I also made the point in a previous comment that you reserve your harshest criticism for the murderous Jews, but as a Christian, you apply a double standard against us, ignoring your own much bloodier history.
You again condemn the Jews for the genocide of Canaan and the sending away of their foreign wives. I and another commenter (I forget who) answered you on this. The Jews were commanded to do so by God and by their divinely inspired leaders, respectively, so you are indirectly condemning God for commanding them to commit these acts. Furthermore, the Jews were repenting by sending away their wives, because their wives were Gentiles, which the Bible prohibits.
We don’t get to choose which commandments of God we can obey and disobey. We must obey all those that apply to us that are possible for us to obey, to the best of our ability.
As for Canaanites disappearing, I don’t know why you think it’s wishful thinking on my part. Whether the Canaanites have survived to the present day or not has zero relevance to my life. But I am interested in the truth. And as far as I know–at least as far as my research has uncovered–there is no evidence of Canaanite descendants today. It would be impossible to prove it, scientifically. The claim of Palestinians to be Canaanite descendants is a new one, to legitimize their claim to the land (“We were here first”). Again, whether that’s true or not is irrelevant, but they cannot prove it.
(On the other hand, the genetic ancestry of the Jewish people has been widely studied and proven. For example, Jewish men who claim to be descendants of Aaron share a genetic marker that traces back to one male about 3,000 years ago.)
If you can show me archaeological and/or scientific evidence from a neutral, credible source that I am wrong, I will admit my error.
http://www.ushmm.org/research/the-center-for-advanced-holocaust-studies/programs-ethics-religion-the-holocaust/articles-and-resources/christian-persecution-of-jews-over-the-centuries
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers.htm
Anti-pagan
If you can stomach it, read this footnoted article:
http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c8.htm
Anti-Christian
It’s anti-Christian to list Christian atrocities against Jews? What happened to objective truth?
Hi Dina,
I have no argument against listing Christian atrocities as you are often fond of doing. My argument was the lie that you keep perpetrating that the source is the NT.
In which books of the bible do we first learn of persecution against the Jews, the Hebrew Scriptures or the NT?
Answer: Hebrew Scriptures.
Therefore, if you want to be balanced in all of this you’d have to say that the Hebrew Scriptures was the initial inspiration for any hate and persecution of the Jews.
where do we first find an attempted genocide of a people?
Answer: the Hebrew Scriptures.
So, if it is actually true as you say the NT is a book of hate against Jews, then the Hebrew Scriptures share the guilt and even more so since it came first and would have been the inspiration.
What goes around comes around.
Are you anti-paganism and prone to point the finger? Perhaps you should stop reading the Hebrew Scriptures.
David, I’m not following your logic. Since Hebrew Scripture records attempted genocide against the Jews that makes it the source of Jewish persecution? Surely you jest!
Christians who studied Christian scripture used its charge of deicide, its labeling of Jews as children of the devil, liars, and murders, and its labeling of them as hypocrites and a brood of vipers, as well as noting that they are hostile to all men, to persecute the Jewish people. This is historical fact. They did not reference the story of Purim when they participated in pogroms inspired by Passion plays (Easter was a particularly devastating time for Russian Jews).
If you read the viciously anti-Jewish writings of the early Church fathers through Martin Luther, you will see that they refer to Christian scriptural descriptions, such as “synagogue of Satan” and “children of the devil.”
It is not a lie; it is historical fact. The Jews have paid a terrible price for Matthew’s declaration of “his blood be upon us and our children,” of John’s description of Jews as children of the devil, and so on. You are the one distorting history and burying your head in the sand.
By the way, I understand and even sympathize with your reaction. You have invested your life in this religion. It cannot possibly be morally depraved; that is too horrible to contemplate. Much easier to call me a liar without further investigation and be done with it.
It will take courage to confront the history of your religion, but I know you can do it–if you want to.
“Are you anti-paganism and prone to point the finger?”
I don’t really care; I just wish Christians would leave us alone. Let them stop preaching at us, let them stop trying to convert us, let them show some real love for a change–I’m sick of the Christian variety.
David, read this:
http://www.yashanet.com/library/fathers.htm
And this paper, with footnotes, by a university student:
http://www.sandrawilliams.org/ANTI/anti-semitism.html
Affter you read the above you may better understand why scholars and historians point to Christian scripture as the source of Christian Jew hatred.
By the way, the scripture of Islam, the Koran, is the source of Muslim Jew hatred. People take their religious texts seriously; if the texts preach that the Jew is evil, then the Jew is evil. And how can you not hate evil?
Hi Dina,
The concept of Anti-Semitism first appears with the Hebrew Scriptures. It’s not something that was invented or addressed in the NT.
The charge of “deicide” is a later charge as Trinitarianism took hold; the term doesn’t even exist in the NT.
As I noted, as people have begun to read their New Testaments there has been less anti-Semitism. Even you admit this.
Hi David,
Thank you for taking the time to read all my responses and links. As disagreeable a task as this must have been for you, you did so anyway at my request and I appreciate it.
In continuing this dialogue with you, I will try to maintain a more dispassionate tone, because the truth must trump emotion, despite the fact that the topic of anti-Semitism and the persecution of Jews by Christians is a painful one for me, made more painful by Christian whitewashing or outright denial.
“The concept of Anti-Semitism first appears with the Hebrew Scriptures. It’s not something that was invented or addressed in the NT.”
I already agreed with you that anti-Semitism predated Christian scripture. The problem with Christian scripture is that it contains vehement denunciations of Jews and it fell into the hands of Gentiles who were already inclined to feel hostile to the Jews. The combination of pre-existing hatred of Jews with a sacred text that maligned them resulted in biblical justification of hatred and persecution of Jews. While before Christianity anti-Jewish persecutions were sporadic and unorganized, under Christian rule Jew it became institutionalized and systematic. (There is a lot of historical information you are missing…if only I could get you to read those books I recommended…)
With the lens of Christian scripture, Christians read the Jewish Scriptures–a collection of works that essentially is an exercise in internal self-criticism–as a condemnation of the Jewish nation as an inherently wicked people (you too have betrayed this tendency in your repeated accusations of the Jews as a stiff-necked people who kill their prophets).
“The charge of ‘deicide’ is a later charge as Trinitarianism took hold; the term doesn’t even exist in the NT.”
While the exact term “deicide” is not found in Christian scripture, it would be instructive to take a look at Matthew 27:25 and 1 Thessalonians 2:15. Later Christians did not invent the charge of deicide; they found it in their own Scripture. These damning verses that are too easy to rely upon to justify the charge of deicide cannot be explained away.
The gospels furthermore present the story of Jesus’s trial and crucifixion in such a way as to make the Jews the villains responsible for the whole thing while making the Romans sympathetic and unwitting partners.
“As I noted, as people have begun to read their New Testaments there has been less anti-Semitism. Even you admit this.”
You must have missed the part where I wrote exactly the opposite. I argued that with the invention of the printing press and the leadership of Martin Luther during the Protestant Reformation, more Christians (at least Protestants) began reading Christian scripture than ever before. And yet anti-Semitism continued to rise in Germany.
I argued that correlation is not the same as causation. The cause for the dramatic decrease in anti-Semitism in the second half of the twentieth century was the cataclysmic event of the Holocaust. The horror of the senseless murder of millions of innocents, while most Christians either actively collaborated or did nothing (there were a few bright lights, but too few), finally brought Christians to their senses. Christians began to recoil from anti-Semitism and the evil path it leads men down upon. Christians must do soul searching to do in terms of the origins of their dark history of anti-Semitism, instead of brushing it off with the explanation that those weren’t real Christians.
I do not believe it is a coincidence that in the last 1700 years the only two religions guilty of persecution of Jews are the ones whose religious texts vilify them, Christianity and Islam (in the case of Islam, the last 1400 years).
Yisroel
Pagans persecuted mostly Christian-Jews (see Nero persecution as a clear example of history)after the 2nd temple destruction, all Jewish sects were persecuted also.
That subsequently Pagans converted to Christianity stopped the persecution of Christian (year 313) and it is true redirected persecutions towards the new scapegoat…
That was predicted by Paul and Yohan long time before it came to past.
But again appropriation of the Revelation by goyim surely had goyim consequences. Can you expect violent people to reform on a dime and become gentle dove over night??
Yisroel judge the whole history and end result, do goyim worship the idols of their fathers? No nations does not have a certain knowledge of the Messiah of Israel and the Commandments? Civil Societies are now governed by the rule of Law. We need to improve by making Yehudah the bearer of the complete Torah as a witness to the nations of the beauty of all Commandments.
But I am realist: Blessed the persecuted for the Justice the Kingdom is theirs!!
You have been consistent in stating the purpose of J’sus, or the messiah, is to bring Together the two houses of Israel. There is no denying that this man didn’t even come close to accomplishing this task. Instead, his legacy, is the opposite. In his name countless murders were perpetrated.
Now then, if the end purpose is T’shuva of the people and obeying the commandments it is clear there isn’t the need for J’sus. This is accomplished by the many Kiruv organizations. The Orthodox community has been achieving much greater results than any Xtian organization. If you haven’t been educated in Jewish Tradition then How are you even able to teach others regarding observance.
Sharbano the two houses will be reunited. It is a constant prophetic theme in the Tanakh. How it will happen is in the knowledge of YHWH and to whom he reveals it.
All work of unity require patience, efforts and perseverance, truth and honesty, prayers and cries, but most of all the power of YHWH to change mind in a deep sense and the holy fire of love of our Nation to purify it and make it ready for the Messianic Age.
I love you all and may YHWH bless us in his knowledge and wisdom!!
Lion,
No one who has read the slanders you have heaped upon your opponents here will mistake that for love. Such vain protestations only make you look ridiculous. You cannot on the one hand call us children of the devil, hypocrites, enemies akin to the Taliban, and whatever else might enter your mind and then turn around and tell us how much you love us. Dimwitted as I might be, even I am not prone to believe such obvious lies. Your accusations speak much more loudly than your professions of love.
Jim
Jim like all liar you deform the words that I have written. Proving indeed that like the serpent you lie to prove your points.
Your heart is bittered and sad because you do not have the truth in you. If you were a child of light you would rejoice to a voice of light but since in your hear there is darkness you are disturbed. For it takes humility of the heart to accept how wrong you are in your sophisms and fallacies.
Each time a brought Scriptures to prove my point you diverted them with your sophisms. You are good to babble a lot but with no truth like the pagans babbling and babbling to expose their false doctrine…
Again only true Repentance and the Faith can save you. Without humility from your path your share in the world to come is inexistent that should sadden you and make you rethink how you have gone astray in denying the Son of Righteousness, the priest in the Order of My King-Righteous (Melki-Tsedek)…
Humiliations and desolation are the fruits of bad faith and deceptions! Repent!!
You just proved Jim’s point. You claim that your goal is to bring unity, but I have never met a more divisive person.
Are David’s views typical for Christians? Are Christians who hold these views and believe these myths (such as those about Israel) considered anti-Semites or are they accepted by other mainstream Christians?
Dina, speaking only for myself, I NEVER had a problem with Jews being Jewish or practicing Judaism. I owe a lot to the Jewish people personally, and that’s the perspective I have always had as a Christian. I had surguries as a youngster to help me walk, and my doctor (bless him) was Jewish (though that’s not important.)
I always thought to myself, Jews taught us Christians about G-d, about Jesus, so WE OWE THEM cf. Romans 11. I only asked my friends once the question “why don’t Jews believe In Jesus? Out of curiosity as a child off course, and my friend said, “we don’t need that man, we have the Torah.” That was it, that was all.
I’d been to a bat mitzvah as a kid, but my family never had an issue with Judaism, we weren’t that exposed to it. Many Christians have a belief that it IS G-D’s DOING that Israel does not accept Jesus, so from a Christian perspective it never made sense to me to treat Jews in any way but respectfully. Also, Jesus said, “I have sheep in other pastures” and told his students at length, “you saw me hungry and did not feed me, etc.” the implication clearly being to treat ALL other humans with as much love and respect as possible because you could be meeting G-d at any time and not knowing it. Be Curtious, polite, kind, hospitable, and holy. Let’s also not forget the words, “forgive them father, they know not what they do.” Jesus forgave the ones who rejected him, why should Christians do different?
One thing I think that made my view of Christianity somewhat different was how I always interpreted the classic “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody comes to the father but by me” verse.
Christians typically read this verse and think it just means to love and believe in Jesus, and thereby go to heaven. I however always focused on the “way” “truth” “life” part of Jesus’ statement, because in scripture those are always synonyms for a person’s walk in the commandments. To me, Jesus in this verse NEVER said, “hug Me and go to heaven,” JESUS ALWAYS SAID TO WALK LIKE ME.” Mathew 7:22 totally contradicted the usual Christian refrain that says “I have Jesus you don’t.” As I got older and went to college, I learned much more about Judaism and Christianity. I learned Jesus wasn’t just Jewish, he was an OBSERVANT Jew. His views are appocalyptic but also at home in a Pharisaic Hermeneutic. I confirmed this opinion by actually looking through later Church manuals of discipline (the dos and donts) and seeing how Paul’s churches and later 2nd-3rd century churches expected people to live. If you look at the rules and norms of behavior in these documents, it’s the noachide laws on steroids with ascetic practices, fasting, etc. (cf. Acts 15) In other words, there are remnants of Jesus’ actual Judaism in Christian texts and tradition starting from the beginning, from Paul. It is therefore extremely hypocritical for religious Christians to tell Jews “you don’t know how to serve G-d.” If they don’t know dear Christians, how in heavens name do you know? Jews taught us what we know!
That brings to mind of a story R’ Singer told. A mother came to him because her daughter became involved in Xtianity. She was devastated. To make it short, she said the reason she decided to follow J’sus because of “love”. It was a reference of “you shall love your neighbor as yourself”. The Rabbi took out the Chumash and showed that it was in Torah and that is where it comes from. She ended up breaking out in tears. Afterwards the two said Shema together.
Con what make you leave the Faith then? Your wisdom is praiseworthy but I feel that you see the commandments as the centre of the true Religion which honestly is in sync with James the brother of Yahshuo:
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before the God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Con, when you were a Christian, you were definitely not typical, and I told you so then…:)
Lion, Christian theology of a Man-god who is the only way to approach the father is foreign to the Torah. Jesus’ ethics were Torah ethics, but when you necessitate that people believe in Christian theology, it is contradiction to what was revealed in the plain sense of the Hebrew bible. You yourself have said that just believing in Jesus is not enough, but so many Christians believe just that, namely that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to approach G-d. The commandments are the only thing we can all agree on.
Con all I can say to your exposition is that your are delight to talk too. You are humble and I true seeker of the truth.
I will with James the brother of Yahshuo agree with you that the obedience to the commandments are paramount to have eternal life contrary to the deluded protestants who say that it is not necessary. We see who are the true Christian if you follow the obedience to Torah.
What made our parents Adam and Hawah fall from Paradise is their disobedience to the simple injunction of YHWH to not eat of the forbidden tree.
Con having obeyed all the commandments the next step is to know the Elohim for He blesses those who obey in all.
My question to you then is this: do you sincerely think that the Pharisees obey all the commandments and are bearer of the truth and life? Are you not worry that they might be just a sect like the Mormon or the Jehovah witness or all the sects of Protestantism… that they are simply a sect of Judaism but not the real Judaism preached by the Master Teacher the Rabbi of rabbis the Yahushuo Messiah coming in the Flesh.
If Yahushuo opposed their view and their adding to Torah, why are you or else must recognize them as true witnesses. That is my contention here.
do you sincerely think that the Pharisees obey all the commandments and are bearer of the truth and life?
Your question of real vs false religion, of absolute life life vs absolute death, Lion, and your other question whether the pharisees obeyed ALL the commandments, is a question that only arises in your mind from your strong belief in the unique Christian interpretation of the scriptures (particularly Genesis) that has been passed down to you, but not from the Jewish interpretation. No disrespect intended.
For Jews, the question of “are humans sinless or perfect” would never naturally arise from reading the Bible. Jews would say that sin exists, the yetzer ha ra exists, only so free will is able to exist for us.
You see, in Christian Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Protestantism, Christians all believe in a doctrine of man’s fall from grace, which results in a ruining of G-d’s perfect plan for his creation that man needs rescue from. This interpretation assumes (I do not believe it assumes this reading intentionally) that G-d somehow let the creation get out of his control, and let it fall/fail because of sinful men.
In the Jewish interpretation, the fall is not a fall at all, but our situation is only a consequence of G-d granting human beings free will. Evil exists (the ability to oppose G-D’s will) only because humans were given a right to choose to serve G-d in order to give their existence meaning. The right to choose and discuss with G-d is what it means to be “in his image.” This struggle with/for G-d is the meaning of the name Israel.
If we had no ability to say no to hashem’s will, we would be exactly like the angels without free choice. The very idea that G-d created us in his image tells us that we have free agency by hashem’s leave, not just a free choice. Ask yourself a question. If the Christian interpretation of a war in heaven, of Satan and his fallen angels, of a perfect creation ruined and marred by imperfect humans, and of original sin were true, what would this say about G-d’s omnipotence and omniscience?
Did G-d not know what would happen at the beginning of his own creation if he put a bad guy in the garden? For Jews, Satan is an angel who exists to tempt humans to sin, he is not an enemy in rebellion against G-d. Read Job very closely. Satan is the same as the Malach ha mavet who did Hashem’s will during the Exodus. He is only a servant of G-d, one of G-d’s host. No creation can rebel against G-d. If a creation could truly rebel, hashem would not be hashem. Its all in a difference of interpretation.
G-d knows men sin and he accepts their repentant actions.
Try to explain that:
“12There the workers of iniquity have fallen;
They have been cast down and are not able to rise.” (Psalm 36)
Contradicting Yisroel interpretation that Yahushuo could have rise and be a false prophet. That lens of interpretation is corrupt and wicked for it will contradict the Promise made to our forefathers.
Actually give the article a read. The New Testament itself defeats this interpretation. Just because a person suffers a “deadly wound” and rises to life, does not make them a true prophet. Read your book of revelation chapter 13.
Con this one I wanted for a while to correct you about it. You are extrapolating to the Messiah this passage which is a grave misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation.
The deadly wound is not a death and then a Resurrection. It is the blow of one of its head having been slain to death and then healed. We are talking about a beast with seven head. Did you ever saw a man with seven head?
The beast can be personified by a man. But one of the head having been slain and healed. This is not the Resurrection but a healing of one of the head. This head is the head of pride to blaspheme… There is the text which if you read honestly will counter your false claim:
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13 NKJV)
Con did you saw this verse or you fainted to ignore it:
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
Now who is the Dragon? Heylel
Who is the beast? A system against the Most High like in the time of Nimrod personified by a man the Anti-Messiah who will reign for 42 months in Yerushala’im
Who is the Lamb slain? The true Messiah from whom all the saints and the elect will receive the strength to resist the Anti-Messiah.
I could go on and on. But Con your reading of Revelation is from a truncated pharisaic view accusing the Lamb to be the false Messiah when the Book is a testimony to the Lamb Resurrected. That is wicked from your part!!
Repent!!
St. Methodius of Olympus 250 – 311″
Even the Antichrist will enter Jerusalem, where he will enthrone himself in the temple AS A god (even though he will be an ordinary man of the tribe of Dan to which Judas Iscariot also belonged).
St Ephrem 300-373
The man of evil will prepare and coming he will enter Jerusalem; he will build up and establish Sion and will make himself God and entering he will sit in the temple as the apostle has written as if he were God
St. Hildegard 1098 – 1179
Antichrist will make the earth move, level mountains, dry up rivers, produce thunder and lightning and hail, remove the leaves from the trees and return them again to the trees, make men sick and cure them, exorcise devils, raise the dead to life. He will appear to be crucified and RISE FROM THE DEAD. All in all, Christians will be astounded and in grievous doubts while the followers of Antichrist will be confirmed in their false faith.
Didache
and then shall appear the world-deceiver AS Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself.
St. Iranaeus
In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten Kings,
St. Hildegard shares my reading of revelation 13 Lion, as do several other fathers of the Church. My point was that miracles and resting your faith on a belief in the deity of the messiah are not indicators of the truth of anything. Following the commandments and being careful in their observance is the sure indicator of truth value according to both Hebrew Bible and New Testament. The false messiah is lawless, so how do ou avoid lawless? Be lawful. Horns and beasts represent kingdoms and kings. Simon the magician (according to the NT said that he was “the great power” from G-d, and he was considered a heretic. Humans fancy themselves as being divine, but scripture unambiguously teaches that they are not. You say the resurrection and claim to deity is the unique mark of the true prophecy of Jesus, but scripture, and even Christian tradition disagree.
Con,
You don’t have to use the Christian terms (such as “fall”) to describe what happened in the Garden with Adam to get the point across. It’s just one way to describe it.
But one reason it is described as “the fall” is because Adam as the first man decided for all of us in a manner of speaking because that’s the way God set up the consequences of his choice. As the first to sin (having had no children in the Garden), his sin had repercussions for his eventual children in that he was driven from the Garden and that’s where we are. Had he not sinned, or not sinned long enough to have had children in the Garden we’d be living in the Garden today. So for that reason alone you can call it “the fall.”
But God proclaimed His solution as far back as Genesis 3:15
You asked if God didn’t know the future, that Adam would sin. He probably knew or had a good idea that Adam would disobey based on the fact that He made provision for that eventuality (again, Gen 3:15) and He knows the hearts of all men being that He’s the one who made us. The so called omniscience (all knowing including all future possibilities) of God is not actually found in the bible. That’s a Christian invention based on a faulty understanding of God, but perhaps Jews believe that as well; I don’t know. Rather, the bible says that God makes proclamation of what He wants to bring about and then makes it happen. In that way He is “all powerful” and makes happen what He wants to bring about, rather than being strictly all knowing regarding every future potential including each person’s decision of free will. The best way to think of it is the biblical way, that he is all powerful bringing about what he wills and has pre-ordained.
God values free will so much so that He is willing to allow people to perish (forever) who choose to rebel repeatedly without repenting as did the adult Israelites in the desert years. Even Jews hold that they (the adult Israelites in the desert years who perished before entering the Promised Land) will not enjoy life in the age to come (although there is not complete agreement on that I think). In other words, it is held that those Israelites are gone forever (or will be gone forever on the day of resurrection of the just and unjust).
Had the Israelites been childless during their desert years, the nation would have perished (then and forever) when the last adult died. But they did have children and the children grew up in their ancestors’ place to enter the Promised Land. Note the opposite correlation with Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve had no children, but they were already in the Garden of Eden (the equivalent to their Promised Land) and were driven out. Adam and Eve’s later children then were forced to live under the consequences of Adam’s sin indefinitely which is life outside the Garden until such time as God’s pre-ordained solution came to pass.
You don’t know what God knows. It could be that God knew that the only way for us to learn and grow and truly choose Him from the heart or even to reject Him is to have free will with the option to reject or accept, and to yes, make mistakes and at times choose sin as humanities inevitable path to union with God.
This could also be why God allowed Satan in the Garden (as He told Cain, you have to learn to master sin). Satan didn’t force anyone to sin. Adam freely chose his own way over God’s way. In doing so he rejected God, just as did the adult Israelites in the desert years; they rejected God and went their own way.
For the new generation of Israelites in the desert, the children not only had to endure the iniquity of their parents’ sin for 40 years in the desert, but they also reaped the blessings of throwing off the iniquity of their parents upon entering the Promised Land.
Likewise when we “re-enter” the Promised Land God has in store for us (in the age to come) we will have once and for all thrown off the iniquity of the consequences of Adam’s sin for us which we’ve had to endure all these years living outside the Garden. By the way, life in the age to come is here on earth; I’m in agreement with the Jews on that one.
The nation of Israel is God’s light unto all nations and in that sense is God’s pathway to bring about the solution for us all; the anointed one from Israel being God’s forespoken solution to lead all men, including Gentiles, back to Himself, that being of course Jesus.
Israel is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end, which is that all of humanity including Gentile nations (not just Israel) are shown the way to return to God and that those who choose God, may do so (apart from Judaism and the Law of Moses).
That’s not to say that the nation of Israel does not have God. They do, and many (even Christians, including my Trinitarian pastor) tends to argue that Israel is saved. But God’s saving grace is not limited to Israel and there’s no need to convert to Judaism.
Like Adam and Eve’s time in the Garden of Eden, God has told as that when Israel is living as God has ordained, she enjoys the abundance of her Land while living under her own authority and rule on her own her Land. When you observe Israel in such a manner, she is a light; otherwise, she is not.
David, absolutely nobody here or in Judaism generally is demanding that you as a non Jew convert to Judaism. You are advocating that Jews start abandoning rabbinic Judaism for your views of Christianity. The only request Judaism makes is that Christians stop proselytizing to Jews and just let them observe their faith. Jews have Torah and are ordered by G-d in scripture to observe it in all their generations in the way it was revealed to Moses. Judaism firmly believes that Jews are bound to follow G-d’s commandments as outlined in the Tanakh, while the righteous gentiles are bound by the laws of the Ger (the stranger,) called today to follow the Noachide laws. In second temple times, these laws’ equivalents were practiced by gentiles called G-d fearers. The rules of the Ger in fact form the basis for the ethical standards of earliest gentile converts to Christianity. (See Acts 15. Take careful note of how 3 of those rules in Acts involve food that is prohibited to gentile converts, ie a version of kosher. Jesus did not abolish those rules.)
Jews have had to defend their beliefs and practices against christian encroachment for centuries, (Christians accusing Jews of being liars, ungodly, murderous, stiff necked, and that, only for observing G-d’s laws, etc. laws which Jesus himself observed, albiet imperfectly.) If Christians did not continually do these things, Jews would not need to argue any issues or points.
Jesus is not the only Jew to have been deified by his students. Worshiping a being other than the father (any of hashem’s host) is prohibited explicitly in Deuteronomy 4:19, regardless of mystical speculations that profit us nothing. You have accused Dina and others here of being Anti Christian and Anti Pagan? Unless I’m mistaken, Jews did not wipe pagan faiths out in Europe, but the Church did. Jews have been able to handle historical schisms without much bloodshed (the hasidim and mitnagdim debate is a perfect example, as is that of the Samaritans.) Can you say the same for Christendom? You are the person saying to Jews that their faith is inadequate, they are only defending against this libel, and your faith is being hit in the crossfire. We are sorry about that.
C.R.
You wrote:
David, absolutely nobody here or in Judaism generally is demanding that you as a non Jew convert to Judaism.
My response:
Strawman. I never made that comment. And what I did say, you have taken out of context. The context was concerning Judaism being a light to the nations (that would be Gentile nations). Therefore, the Gentile nations and the people within said nations can receive the benefits of the light of Israel (when, and at the times when they are actually the light) without becoming themselves Israel.
Having said that, if you or anyone else wants to convert to Judaism, or to anything else I couldn’t care less one way or the other. Or if you want to remain in a pit-stop along the way to there or somewhere else or make your pit-stop a permanent location, why should I care?
But it seems to me you have a problem with accepting your own personal decision and want to project onto me your stereotype about what you want to believe.
You wrote:
You are advocating that Jews start abandoning rabbinic Judaism for your views of Christianity.
My response:
Either you are consciously lying, have me confused with someone else, or there is some other motivation which only you are aware of.
I have gone on record repeatedly on this blog and said that if you don’t believe Jesus is who he said he was then you should reject him. I think even Dina will attest to that if she has a truthful moment.
You wrote:
The only request Judaism makes is that Christians stop proselytizing to Jews and just let them observe their faith.
My response:
Sounds like whining to me. Mommy make it stop! The Gentiles are speaking to me!
If you don’t like what you hear, change the channel and grow up!
You wrote:
Jews have Torah and are ordered by G-d in scripture to observe it in all their generations in the way it was revealed to Moses. etc. etc. etc.
My response:
Your preaching to the choir. Again, a straw man. That’s why I said that if Jews (or anyone else for that matter) doesn’t believe Jesus is who he said he was they should reject him.
A coerced or uninformed decision is quite meaningless anyway, regardless of which direction you are going or decision you are making or keeping.
Or perhaps you actually believe you’re the only one between the two of us capable figuring that out? Get a grip.
You wrote:
Jews have had to defend their beliefs and practices against christian encroachment for centuries,…
My response:
Tell me something I don’t already know.
One God Christians have also had to defend their beliefs and practices against mainstream Trinitarian persecution including to the point of torture and death since about the 3rd or 4th century when they came to power.
So does that mean the NT is evil? No, that means that men can be evil in spite of the efforts of the writers and main character of the NT.
Does that also mean I have the right to spew my hate at Trinitarians today and make them pay today for what was done in the past in the name of God?
Sorry, but no. It’s time to grow up.
You wrote:
Jesus is not the only Jew to have been deified by his students.
My response:
Citation please using the Hebrew Scriptures.
And when you cite Hebrew Scripture (if you can), you can then tell me what you’re trying to prove.
You wrote:
You have accused Dina and others here of being Anti Christian and Anti Pagan?
My response:
You’ve taken a long standing and ongoing argument or debate if you want to call it that, and injected your own uninformed opinion not knowing or considering what has transpired heretofore. But that doesn’t surprise me considering the source and how you’ve fabricated or twisted alleged statements of mine.
So, in a nutshell, Dina (primarily, but also Mr. Blumenthal to a certain extent) has accused the NT which would include of course those who wrote it as being the vile, hate filled, source of anti-Semitic propaganda which is responsible for history’s anti-Semitic atrocities including the holocaust.
I have argued that it is evil men who twist the words of the NT to their own ambition to make it read how ever they want. Nothing new there. One can to the same with the book she reads.
You wrote:
You are the person saying to Jews that their faith is inadequate, they are only defending against this libel, and your faith is being hit in the crossfire. We are sorry about that.
My response:
Another lie, or straw-man at best. Wow, you are personally attacking me for something I did not say. I’m “the person saying…” Really C.R. ? Where did you invent that from?
In the past, as noted above I’ve always said that (in the context of Judaism when debating with a Jew here on this blog) that one should search the Hebrew Scriptures, and if you don’t believe that Jesus is who he said he was or that he is not what is referenced in Deuteronomy 18 then you should reject him. I’ve also said that (per Deuteronomy 18:19 in that regard) we are each accountable before God for our decisions, and that includes me.
As recently as my post above I wrote this:
“That’s not to say that the nation of Israel does not have God. They do, and many (even Christians, including my Trinitarian pastor) tends to argue that Israel is saved.”
So tell me C.R., how do you arrive at your statement that I’m “the person saying to Jews that their faith is inadequate,” ?
David, this is really for Con to respond to, so both of you forgive me for interjecting.
First, I spent several hours last night responding to all of your comments, which I appreciated the time you took to pen. I hope you will repeat your kindness and read them through.
You wrote:
“You wrote:
The only request Judaism makes is that Christians stop proselytizing to Jews and just let them observe their faith.
My response:
Sounds like whining to me. Mommy make it stop! The Gentiles are speaking to me!
If you don’t like what you hear, change the channel and grow up!”
One of the most important teachings in Judaism is “Love your fellow as you love yourself,” which a Pharisee by the name of Hillel taught means, “What is hateful to you do not do to your fellow.” Christians have made this teaching a foundational principle as well, using an inverse wording that became known as the Golden Rule.
So let’s try a thought experiment. Christians are the minority, targeted by a Jewish majority for conversion. When they go out, they see signs telling them to embrace the Law as the only way to God (Jews don’t teach this, I’m just saying for argument’s sake), are preached at and told they are spiritually blind, going to hell for not embracing the Law of Moses, all the while being told that we love them and want to save their souls–this after nearly 2000 years of actual persecution for being Christians. It wasn’t enough that in the past Jews tried to force Christians to convert, expelled them over 80 times, massacred them, forced them into ghettos, taxed them to death, forced them out of every occupation except moneylending and then hated them for practicing usury. No, Jews STILL can’t leave Christians alone. They still have deep contempt for Christians and their religion, and although they’re nicer about it (no more physical force, thank goodness, and equal rights for all), they still bother Christians and don’t leave them in peace to practice their faith according to their conscience.
I don’t think Christians would like that at all. So if they really took the Golden Rule to heart, they would leave Jews in peace. And you know what? Jews can’t just change the channel and grow up; we’re surrounded on all sides by self-righteous and contemptuous Christians like those who visit this blog to preach at us.
I also would like to respond to a personal charge:
“I have gone on record repeatedly on this blog and said that if you don’t believe Jesus is who he said he was then you should reject him. I think even Dina will attest to that if she has a truthful moment.”
It is true that you have said that many times. However, that begs the question: what are doing on this blog, then? Why are you here?
Furthermore, your statement that “Dina will attest to that if she has a truthful moment” implies that I am dishonest most, if not all, of the time. Since the truth matters to me more than winning an argument, being right, and scoring points, I would like to know what false statements I have made with evidence for my dishonesty. If presented fairly and honestly, I will retract my statements. I will also add that you made false and unsubstantiated statements that you have refused to substantiate or retract. When I listed them for you (more than once), you simply did not respond. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not see them. They are fairly recent on one of the threads we’ve been conversing on.
Oh how many times have I heard the cry of Xtians that schools Dare to teach any part of Islam. We will have No part of it they say.
David, the history of the Jews continues after Hebrew scripture. The most recent example of a Jew whose followers claimed he was the messiah and deified him is the Lubavitcher rabbi (while most of his followers have condemned the movement to deify the rabbi, it does exist).
The concept of Anti-Semitism first appears with the Hebrew Scriptures. It’s not something that was invented or addressed.
David, you say that the Hebrew bible itself is what started anti semitism, and seem to feel vindicated thereby. Tell me, if a stranger heard you arguing with a family member or a spouse, decided to put your argument to print, and then distributed the transcripts globally for everyone to read, would you feel that the response you gave just now is adequate when some random guy comes to you and says hey, it’s your letter that inspired it?
Whatever Israelites may have said to other Israelites throughout THEIR HISTORY is irrelevant to what later gentile Christians from diverse cultures have chosen to do with these arguments and statements found in the NT. It is fact that Christian mobs have burned down synagogues with innocent children in them after watching a passion play where the crowd of supposed Jews yells “crucify him!” Christian institutions had codified prayers asking for the salvation of “perfidious Jews” well into the 1960s. When Mel Gibson!s passion movie was released, the Jewish community genuinely feared Christian backlash, because it has happened before in many a country.
It sounds as though you want Jews to judge the man Jesus fairly, and the NT books fairly, but you want us to just deal with the fruit that has arisen when people read the words of this book? Christians are the only people that I have seen, that systematically in liturgy and their culture present a caricature of one generation of a people group as an accurate history for the whole people in their sacred texts.
Christians read the NT narrative and then think, “ok, I now have an accurate pucture of all Jews, for all time, of all Pharisee’s, Don’t need to actually talk to them, or learn their way.” You have spoken of Tanakh’s evident anti paganism. Consider however, that in actual mitzvot and in action, the foreigner is not oppressed by Israel. He and she have the same rights as the native born children should they choose to be G-d fearing. The Tanakh doesn’t require covenant membership for someone to be right with G-d. Naamaan the Syrian, Jethro Moses’ father in law, Rahab, Job, Ruth, (who according to the plain sense of Torah was a Moabite) and the gibeonites were all non Jews who either decided to stay non Jews, or freely chose to convert, and Tanakh didn’t judge them either way. In fact, the Torah teaches apathy to those of other cultures and religions unless they declare war, invade the land, or initiate fierce persecutions. In fact, any sense of covenant or national superiority complex on behalf of Jews is soundly and roundly refuted by the Prophet Jonah. Tanakh judges you by behavior, not by affiliation or people group.
When one generation of Jews was singled out in the NT text and called brood of vipers, children of the devil, etc. what behavior does that inspire when later gentile Christians apply it as sound principle to the whole nation? When Jesus openly declares “let them who would not have me to be king over them be brought, and kill them in front of me” is this moral? what behavior does it encourage? Is this peace inspiring? No it isn’t, neither for Jews or for Christians. You want us to find the hidden fresh fruit on a very rotten vine, and you get all huffy when we say we can’t find much.
CR
Well said. Great Points.
Con, thanks for a breath of fresh air!
David, The Rhetorical spin you place in your words gives the impression that you feel that traditional Judaism and its adherents are stubborn, blind, have a double standard in dealing with the Christian claims, are anti Christian etc. if I’ve misunderstood you, I’m sorry.
You should realize though, that the Christian bible is really only a claim about the Jewish scriptures, specifically, a claim that the criteria of the messianic figure have been fulfilled in one Jesus of Nazareth. Your own apostle Paul wrote that the Torah leads a person to the messiah, therefore when Jews doubt certain Christian claims and doctrines based on their text, it is because we see a clear problem vis the Christian reading, when looking at the plain meaning of Torah verses. Therefore, to question your approach, your motives, your tone, etc. is not Jews whining at you, it is Jews doing the Job that the Torah commands them to do when faced with a movement’s claims of prophetic inspiration. G-d gives the test of a true vs a false prophet in the Torah. Jesus fails this test, as have other messiah claimants. Whether he directly failed it purposefully, or it was his students who changed the message later (trinitariarism,) the Torah tells us not to trust it because it is at best unclear what the message really is.
David wrote:
“One God Christians have also had to defend their beliefs and practices against mainstream Trinitarian persecution including to the point of torture and death since about the 3rd or 4th century when they came to power.
So does that mean the NT is evil? No, that means that men can be evil in spite of the efforts of the writers and main character of the NT.
Does that also mean I have the right to spew my hate at Trinitarians today and make them pay today for what was done in the past in the name of God?
Sorry, but no. It’s time to grow up.”
That just proves the point I made previously about the moral legacy of Christianity. Christianity was supposed to lead its followers down a path that was morally superior to Judaism. The blood-soaked pages of its history tell the story of its spectacular failure. While we have better and more powerful reasons for rejecting Christianity, the moral failure of Christianity to protect its followers from committing great evils is a good enough reason on its own to reject Christianity.
Answer for Dina
“Are Christians who hold these views and believe these myths (such as those about Israel) considered anti-Semites or are they accepted by other mainstream Christians?”
In my evangelical context the main opinion about Jews is that they deserve their fate (even no one knows much about Israel, Jewish people, their belief system) ; yes, they are the chosen people but because they are so stubborn not believing in their own Messiah, God sent them at the “bottom” of the history (but of course in His mercy, God will save them after all and finally they will accept Jesus as the Lord and savior); someone told me :”Can you imagine that Jews in spite of their morality according to the Law, all will go in hell?”; others admire Jews very much and respect and love them hoping that one day they will believe in Jesus/Yeshua;last summer someone said about the Gaza war that God want to teach them a lesson because Jews want en earthly land instead of a heavenly one. You can say anything about Jews, but no one will say that this is anti-Semitism.
About the commandments of God. Christians that I know believe the ten commandments are holy, but not eternal and it is useless to keep them. Keeping them will not convince God . Now the faith is the main way for salvation. God changed His plan when Jews failed to be the voice of God. People are very confused. If you ask them if Law help someone to be saved, they will say NO. If you say then we can kill, lie, cheat, etc, they will say NO, God forbid. Maybe they will say that Law is only the accuser.
DD
“In my evangelical context the main opinion about Jews is that they deserve their fate.”
And what fate is it that they deserve?
Paul has said things like we deserved the Holocaust for rejecting Jesus, and more and worse is coming our way if we persist in rejecting him.
the fate of not having peace, of being almost extinct in Holocaust, of being hated.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Dariadan, and for highlighting the inconsistencies in Christian beliefs. It’s very depressing, though :(. Now that we Jews enter The Three Weeks, a mourning period for the destruction of the Holy Temple, I pray for the speedy arrival of the Messiah, at which time the knowledge of God will cover the earth as the water covers the sea (Habakkuk 2:14).
8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zechariah 12)
Lion, so this is talking about the Romans, the ones who pierced Jesus? Odd subject for a Hebrew prophet, don’t you think?
Rabbi Blumenthal already addressed this on his blog, you can read about it here:
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/zechariah-1210/
Amen for Habakkuk 2:14!
Rather funny thing to say about the commandments not being eternal, considering G-d Himself SAYS they are Forever. OR, does eternal and forever have different meanings.
Funny (but sad and with serious consequences for many people) to hear an important Baptist preacher from an orthodox country (the last “revelation” which is presented on this blog) who is angry because in last years more and more evangelicals keep the Sabbath and this man says that Christians don`t have to keep but only the laws which Jesus reiterated in the so-called NT.
Dina You said: ”another name for Pharisaic Judaism, is the only viable form of Judaism”
Dina the only viable form of Christianity proven during times is Orthodox Christianity.
What does that mean?
Hinduism is still around way before Mosheh and still around with almost a billion followers. Does that signifying that it is the religion?
Those metric means nothing. Why?
Take Noah he was the only one with his sons to have the favour of the Elohim. He was the one having the right religion. The truth is measure by the grace you have from the Elohim which are deployed by the perfect obedience to the will of Eloah.
Religion is a system, persons are the ones chosen by the Elohim:
Abraham was chosen although a pagan
Isaac was chosen
Yaakov was chosen
Mosheh was chosen
David was chosen
…
Now where is the true religion?
Those who make the will of Elohay:
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” (Matthew 12; NKJV)
That is not disrespect but the Truth. Those moved by the Ruah holy will always do the will of the Elohim but those looking for themselves and seeking fame and honour will do they own will.
For our parents Adam and Hawah disobey a simple commandment and look what it did for us. Therefore obdedience to the will of Elohay is the way to the truth and life.
Yahushuo was the Obedient One to the humiliation of the Cross to save his People. For that reason He was Resurrected and now He is bless forever.
Where have you read that Avraham was a pagan.
Lion, it’s no big deal that Hinduism is still around. The Indians who practice it are a huge nation who remained in their land unmolested for thousands of years. The Jews needed God’s promise of special protection because they were a small group of people scattered about the globe among hostile nations who did their best to persecute them out of existence.
The survival of the Jewish people is nothing short of miraculous, and if you can’t see that, then some prophet you are. If you can’t see the past, then you surely can’t see the future.
There are many viable forms of Christianity. Catholicism and Protestantism have been around for centuries.
As for Jesus disrespecting his parents, I already said that if any child of mine behaved that way he would be grounded for a month.
Reblogged this on 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources.