Names – Exodus 3:14

Names – Exodus 3:14
The Children of Israel were languishing under the whip of the Egyptian taskmasters and their outcry rose to the heavens. God appears to Moses in the burning bush and He tells Him that He has seen the pain of His people. God then commissions Moses with the task of bringing Israel out of Egypt. Moses asks the Lord; when the people will ask me “what is His name?” what shall I tell them? God responds “I will be who I will be” (Exodus 3:13,14).
What is the meaning of this enigmatic exchange? What does God mean when He calls Himself “I will be”? Isn’t God’s existence eternal? He was, He is and He will always be, so what is the significance of this focus on the future? The mystery is only compounded when we consider the fact that nowhere is it recorded that Moses actually used this appellation of God when he spoke to the children of Israel.
Another interesting feature of this Scriptural narrative concerns the children of Israel. Throughout Scripture, the most common name of our nation is “the children of Israel.” Indeed, this book opens by referring to our nation by this name. But once the nation became enslaved, they are no longer called “children of Israel,” instead they are called Hebrews (Exodus 1:15,16,19; 2:6,7). The Scripture goes out of its way to avoid mentioning the names of Moses’ parents (Exodus 2:1). It is only when Israel cries out to God that they get their name back (Exodus 2:23).
When Israel was enslaved by the Egyptians, their identity as the children of the patriarchs dimmed. They were overwhelmed and overcome by the culture of their captors. And it is for this reason that they are not named as children of Israel throughout this trying period.
When God revealed Himself to Moses on behalf of the children of Israel, Moses knew that the spiritual state of the children of Israel was far from ideal. These were not people whose association with Abraham. Isaac and Jacob was clear and obvious. His question to God was not a question about the nature of God, but about the nature of the people of Israel. When God allows Himself to be associated with a person or with a community it tells us something about that person or that community. The fact that God allows Himself to be called the God of Abraham tells us that Abraham lived a life that reflected Godliness. So Moses was asking God; how are you associating your holy name with these lowly people?
God’s response to Moses was a response about God’s mercy and compassion. God was telling Moses, I don’t need them to be Godly right now. I hear in their cry a yearning for something higher and holier. It is enough for me that they want to be and I associate Myself with them because “I will be.” With their cry to God they regained their national identity, not so much because of what they were but because of what they wanted to become. And God is not only the God of the righteous but He is also the God of those who yearn.

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41 Responses to Names – Exodus 3:14

  1. CP says:

    R’B,
    I hope you don’t mind me putting you on the spot. It seems we both agree after 400 years in Egypt the Sons of Israel were beginning to lose the truth of who they were. Yet I have read repeatedly on your Blog; after Sinai, Israel has never failed in preserving the undiluted pure truth handed not only to Moses but to every single person of the mixed multitude who came out of of Egypt making them a Witness Nation as they handed this truth to their children and their children’s children until the end of time. It would be so much easier to believe this and move on, but I’m am stuck in No-man’s land between Christianity and Judaism. Here’s why:

    I’m a realist, I see the Hellenization of Christianity, as well I can see how the Hebrews could assimilate Egyptian culture while in Egypt. But my question is; have they been cured of this after Sinai? I’ve always agreed Israel is God’s Witness Nation, but I’ve always questioned what that really means. Some say it means Israel will preserve the complete undiluted truth handed to them by God and teach it to the nations. While I agree with this in terms of the Written Tanach or a remnant.. Orally and culturally seems to paint a different picture of what it means to be a “Witness Nation”. In other words; Israel will witness before the nations both obedience and disobedience and therefore witness not only the reality of God but His nature. But you say you alone have the uncompromised truth handed down from Sinia, yet here is what I experience first hand among the “Witness Nation”:

    Culturally Jews celebrate New Years the first of Trishri, when God clearly instructed Moses in Exdous 12 that Nissan (Abib -March/April) is to be the first month. A few years ago you should of seen the looks I received at synagogue when I was watching the moon and months. I had wished everyone a Happy New Year on the 1st of Nissan. Finally someone corrected me, I felt very embarrassed but after some more study realized they were wrong. Since they are the “Witness Nation” who am I to correct them? I just kept quiet about it.

    Then at Hebrew class while learning the names of the months I asked about Exodus 23:13. They didn’t understand, so I explained that some months of the Jewish calendar were the names of pagan gods which per instruction of God; ‘should not even be found on our lips’. I was asked by the instructor not to disrupt the class as we were studying Hebrew and I should be asking that of a Rabbi, (except I didn’t know any Rabbis). I studied out the matter and learned the pagan names came from the Babylonian Exile, and of course kept the matter to myself.

    But the worst offense which bothers me the most, which I know to keep to myself at synagogue even though it breaks my heart (this is my first public mention of it) is the Star of David. Amos 5:26 clearly speaks of this star of Saturn / Moloch. How can Israel fly this on their flag??? I refuse to wear a star; a symbol Not given to us by our God, but rather wear a Menorah, which if you ask me; should be on the flag of Israel.

    My point is; I’ve been challenged by those here to just accept and follow the teachings of the Witness Nation, if this is Tanach; I’m fine with that. Yet I’m being asked to follow people who claim they know the right way, but don’t follow God’s instructions as to the first month of the year, pronouncing pagan god names, flying a pagan god symbol on their flag and wearing it around their necks. Does anyone in their right mind think Messiah will rule flying the flag of a pagan god?

    So I wander in no-man’s land searching for truth among Jews and Christians alike. Seeing Yeshua as a man appointed by God yet perverted by Jews and Christians alike. Such perversion and the hiding of truth convinces me; evil is more than a human inclination, there seems to be an adversary hostile to mankind who drags Jews one direction while dragging Christians the opposite direction leaving neither with all the truth.

    R’B,
    I agree with you the Tanach can be trusted. But how can the Witness Nation be trusted when Tanach and History show otherwise?

    Sure I believe per Tanach there will always be a remnant, but it has been shown Israel as a whole is not that remnant. How can they be while allowing LBGT parades in Jerusalem? I suppose you’d say the remnant is Orthodox Judaism, yet others in Judaism and Christianity say it is them. Who can be believed?

    It seems today we are no different than the mixed multitude who left Egypt. Just as it took a Moses to sort out the mess in his day yet never completely cleaning it up. And perhaps Yeshua in his day yet never completely cleaning it up. It will take the Messiah to sort out this mess in our day. But short of the Messiah coming in our day what can you do or say to prove you are indeed the remnant who alone teaches the truth besides just claiming you are?

    I must admit when I look around, Christians seem to have the upper hand on truth that matters. Dispite their theological shortcomings, I see homeless ministries, hospitals, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, being on the front lines of every disaster, proclaiming a message of love hope and forgiveness to all nations independent of race, creed or social status. Despite their theological confusion they indeed witness God to the nations. Yet there are some who look only to those claiming Christianity but not practicing Biblical Christianity throughout history and use them to discredit Christianity. I wonder why they do this knowing this can be done to any group?

    I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong. What I am saying is; everyone is right and wrong and I see no identifiable group of people who have 100% truth. You say you do, considering the circumstances listed above is it unfair for me to ask how this can be when culturally Judaism exhibits error when compared to Tanach?

    • CP
      The musings of carnal King Solomon in his old age are helpful sometimes. [Ecclesiastes.]
      He doesn’t claim they are “The Word of God” or equal to Torah or the Prophets. So naturally, they are in the Writings Section (Kethuvim).

      Solomon describes his personal feelings about his own personal experience, saying “there is nothing new under the sun”, which is false- there are new things every morning, but he was just too jaded and spoiled and burned out to appreciate them.

      I recall Solomon also said something like “with much knowledge comes much sorrow”. Sometimes I can relate to that feeling, and perhaps you can too. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. George Orwell said Ignorance is Strength in 1984.

      “Joseph named his firstborn Manasseh and said, ‘It is because God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father’s household…..” [Genesis 41:51]

      I suppose one answer is to choose to keep moving forward, seeking God, and choosing not to dwell on negatives from the past which I’ve already pondered and can’t learn anything more from, or do anything about now. (But there is a time to ponder and learn….) That is much easier said than done, I know 🙂

      • CP says:

        Thanks Matthew,
        To steal a quote (and reword it because of profanity);
        ‘Ignorance is bliss for only for the ignorant, for the rest of us its a pain in the butt!’
        Or,
        John Wayne; “If you’re going to be stupid, you’d better be tough”

        Speaking of musings; I wonder if this schism is really about the prodigal son parable. To explain; The older brother Judah has faithfully adhered to Torah, (addition of Oral Torah aside) . Yet the younger brothers went to the nations squandering their inheritance. God has been calling them back through Yeshua and giving them a gift of the Holy Spirit. The older brother is angry in light of his obedience and the blessing bestowed up the younger brother by their father in spite of his disobedience.

        The problem is God has promised over and over and over again Israel and Judah will be reunited. No if, ands or buts, it is going to happen. But Judah is bowing up, saying it can only happen according to the terms he sets and may find himself in conflict with the Father if the Father has set different terms for the younger brothers return. The older and younger brothers will reunite when Messiah comes and those who oppose Messiah will not live to regret it.

        It is like Judasm and Christianity are two pieces of a puzzle looking at themselves declaring they have the complete picture when the picture is only complete when the pieces unite to form the complete picture and both sides reject the extra pieces each has gathered to fill the void of their missing brother.

        God is not going to tolerate any rebellion to unity.

      • Matthew Perri Your understanding of great human beings is so shallow – great music is not dropping some silverware on the floor and wise people say wise things

        1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

    • CP Thanks for this long and thoughtful comment I will try to respond to your questions/statements in the order that they appear

      Israel was not commissioned to be a witness nation while they were in Egypt – God did not go out of His way to preserve His testimony in their midst – the miracles of the exodus, Sinai revelation and journey in the wilderness is what made them a witness nation – their testimony consists of the lesson of these events

      No one said that we have the undiluted truth – but we have enough truth to go by to fulfill our task as God’s witness nation

      As for your question about the new year – at first glance your question seems to be solid – but many things are not what they appear to be on the surface. If you read the book of Genesis you would get the impression that the chosen spot for the Temple would be Luz or Beth E-l not Jerusalem – but unless you want to accept that the books of Scripture from Samuel onward were all written by false prophets you will have to accept that the simplest meaning is not always the most accurate When it comes to the months – we number them starting in the spring – but the beginning of the year starts in the fall – Leviticus 25:9 together with Ezekiel 40:1 will help you see the Biblical roots for this approach.

      About the names of the months – this was a question that disturbed our teachers – they found the author of Esther using these names and they came to the understanding that once the Divinely inspired writers used these names – we are no longer quoting the pagans and referring to their gods but rather we are quoting Scripture

      I appreciate your argument about the star of David – as far as I know – I never heard this star used as a reference to Saturn – its origins as a Jewish symbol are unclear and the fact that the state of Israel uses it is meaningless – they are a secular state and religion is not their thing – I want to look into this thing more (find out about the origins of this symbol)

      You have a problem trusting the witness nation – you feel that Scripture only appoints them to witness through their suffering when disobedient – but Scripture clearly gives them the role of testifying to the oneness of God, preserving the Sabbath and a working understanding of God’s Law (Exodus 31;13; Deuteronomy 4:35; 30:2; Isaiah 43:12; 59:21).

      As for the question about who has God’s truth – Scripture makes it pretty clear – the sign of Sabbath alone should be enough

      The charity of Christianity is truly admirable – but it is counterbalanced by the sins of the same institutions – also you overlook the charity of God’s chosen nation – here are two articles that may help – > https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/10/11/jews-and-civilization-an-open-letter-to-tildeb/ > https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/10/26/1395/ Let me conclude by saying that it is never “unfair” to ask questions – but I will say that it is foolish to jump to hasty conclusions

      1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

      • Pharisee Friend,
        You said, Quote: “…….once the Divinely inspired writers used these names – we are no longer quoting the pagans and referring to their gods but rather we are quoting Scripture.”

        Are you saying that you believe “All Scripture is God-breathed”, but you define “Scripture” as only The Hebrew Bible, the Tanach?

      • Dina says:

        I think it’s interesting, CP, that your heart breaks over the pagan symbol of the Star of David but you brush off as mere imperfection the idolatry of Christendom. Your excessive criticism of Jews and praise of Christians as so much kinder and more loving is well…I guess make of it what you will. (While I agree with Rabbi B. that Christians are to be commended for their loving kindness, do not judge all Jews by the tiny slice of a picture you get from your Reform congregation; that would be like me judging all Christians by the liberal ones who support LBGT and who pass BDS against Israel. Also please realize that Israel is a secular state. It is not a theocracy.)

        Your source from Amos lists the names of different idols, one of which is named “Kochav” which means star in Hebrew. So what? Is it a problem when Scripture uses this “pagan” symbol to describe the Jewish King? When Balaam had no choice but to speak God’s words, do you think God put a pagan symbol into his mouth? See Numbers 24:17: “A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer has risen from Israel.”

        By the way, I checked your reference and there is no mention of Saturn or Moloch.

        I hope that the news that God uses the star symbol will comfort your broken heart.

        • Dina says:

          Doesn’t it make sense that the star that arises out of Jacob, which is David, should be symbolized by a star?

          The star as a symbol is neutral. Some cultures used it for pagan purposes, some used it as an astrological symbol at a time when astrology and astronomy were intertwined, some used it for other purposes. It is not intrinsically a symbol of idol worship.

          • Dina,
            So “the star is neutral”……
            What if you substituted “the Sun” for “the star” in your argument…. or trees, or December 25th…..

          • Dina says:

            Yep.

            I would have no problem with an organization using a sun or a tree as a symbol. Or a lion. Or a cockroach. December 25th is a day in the year like any other.

            Are you bothered by God calling David a star?

          • Dina says:

            Or comparing the Jews to the stars in the sky or the sand by the sea…

        • CP says:

          No, Dina, it just doesn’t say “star” it says much more.

          You also carried
          נָשָׂא nasa’
          along Sikkuth
          סִכּוּת cikkuwth
          your king
          מֶלֶךְ melek
          and Kiyyun
          כִּיּוּן Kiyuwn
          your images
          צֶלֶם tselem
          the star
          כּוֹכָב kowkab
          of your gods
          אֱלֹהִים ‘elohiym
          which
          אֲשֶׁר ‘asher
          you made
          עָשָׂה `asah
          for yourselves

          Dina, you also remarked; “Your excessive criticism of Jews and praise of Christians …..”
          Sigh….contrary to what you believe, I am here to learn and if I keep everything to myself how are you ever to correct me. Btw for the record Jews and Christians both have areas in which they excell and areas, shall we say could use some improvement. I do my best not to stereotype others by small groups of people I encounter. For example, about 20+ years ago the first synagogue I attended for quite some time an elderly lady asked me point blank if I believed in Jesus, I merely responded with “I believe him to be a Jewish Messiah”. She began to scold me saying prostelizing isn’t welcomed here. I responded, prostelizing? You didn’t even know until you asked me, that’s prostelizing?” Well she was right, next Shabbat I was no longer welcome there. Since then I’ve found another synagogue and became a member, the people are just the opposite, very loving, kind and accepting.

          • Dina says:

            CP, in a hurry so will respond at length later, but you misrepresented my words. I did not say that the verse only talks about Kochav but that it lists a bunch of idols including one called Kochav. I can read the Hebrew for myself, but thanks for taking the time.

            The idols listed are Siccuth, Chiun, and Kochav. You wrote that Kochav associated with Saturn and Moloch are listed here. Just for the sake of accuracy, I pointed out that Saturn and Moloch are not mentioned in this verse. Can you see that?

            If star symbolism bothers you so much, are you disturbed that God calls David a star? If that does not disturb you, then why are you bothered by Jews associating David with a symbol of a star? Just because pagans also used that symbol to denote something else?
            This makes no sense to me.

            I do not believe you are here to learn because your attitude suggests the very opposite. I continue talking to you because I can’t help hoping that at some point the truth will begin to click together for you. I also believe that there is great benefit to this type of dialogue, not just for us to hone our arguments but to the members of this audience who are also seeking the truth.

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            Context! Context! Context!

            Amo 5:26
            “You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves.

            Sakkuth = (Saturn) or shrine of your Moloch
            Kaiwan = (Saturn) or stands of
            kowkab ‘elohiym = your star gods

            “Chiun is sometimes called Kaiwan, or spelled Khiun, and means star. The star of Saturn was a god… Sakkuth and Kaiwan or Chiun are objects of idolatrous worship and are Assyrian gods. In Akkadian texts both names mean the planet or star, Saturn.” (Graham, The Six-Pointed Star, pp. 28-29).

            Btw, I’m sorry you don’t think I’m here to learn, but as the grace of God would have it; I’m learning lots!

          • Dina says:

            CP, sorry, that’s not what the text says. I don’t care what Graham has to say about it. I’m looking at the verse, and it says nothing about Saturn or Moloch. But that’s beside the point. Are you bothered by the fact that God called David a star? Why are you ignoring this question, which I put to you several times already?

            Why have you ignored the other two prophecies, after failing to make your case for the first one?

            Why haven’t you answered my repeated questions about Jesus adding on to Torah?

            If you have come here to learn, yet you keep repeating your same arguments, and you keep warning us of what will happen to those who reject Jesus, then what position of yours has changed?

      • CP says:

        R’B,
        I’d like to express a hardy thank you for taking the time for such a detailed answer. (I’m looking forward to researching the different Temple locations) You brought an understanding I had not previously noticed in Tanach; that the Prophets and the Writings records an evolution in tradition creating subtle conflicts with Torah over time.

        For instance on the First month of the New Year; I looked up the verses you supplied. Lev 25 is obviously a result of dealing with the realities of imposing a Yovel year upon a agricultural year. But what is interesting is Lev 25 doesn’t say this is an alternate New Year, but rather says specifically the 10th day of the SEVENTH month. Therefore it seems to me the declaration begins a Yovel year from harvest to harvest, but is Not meant to alter the clear instruction God gave concerning what month a New Year starts. I think this is a prime example of human nature having a tendency to place more emphasis on the physical rather than the spiritual. In this case God has instructed us to place more emphasis on the spiritual instruction in spite of dealing with everyday physical life trying to convince us otherwise. Therefore I would conclude Ezekial 40:1 being the 25th year of Exile (and because they had gone into exile) the same thing was starting to happen that had happened in Egypt; people were beginning to drift way from their roots through following an evolving tradition rather than straight up Torah.

        Your answer on the pagan named months is extremely enlightening! I had known Esther had the reputation of being the only Book not to mention God by name and therefore some controversy surrounded its inclusion in Tanach. But what was previously unknown to me (until you showed me) is this is where the pagan month names receive a stamp of approval. This brings up a question in my mind, (please correct me if I’m wrong in my logic). If Torah is the most authoritative, followed by the Prophets then lastly the Writings, how is it a Book in the Writings (Esther) can supersede the authority of a Book in Torah (Exdous)? Especially a Book which never mentions God, but mentions the names of pagan gods? — R’B this just doesn’t make a lick of sense to me, but seems to be a product of assimilation justified through tradition.

        I’ve read arguments for and against the Star of David and feel the argument against is the better of the two. I hope you research both sides and am extremely interested in your conclusion.

        R’B, you wrote: “You have a problem trusting the witness nation – you feel that Scripture only appoints them to witness through their suffering when disobedient”

        The first half is correct, but please don’t take it personal; I am untrusting of any group of people or denomination declaring they are the sole witness and keeper of Gods truth. However you have no idea how much it means to me when you said the Witness Nation has not kept the truth perfectly, but has kept it good enough. This means a lot to me, and even though we disagree on a couple issues (authority of Tradition and the authority of Yeshua) I do agree Judaism has excelled above every other Abrahamic religion in preserving the basic instructions given to man from God.

        But the last half of your statement misinterprets my meaning. Please allow me to clarify: God through the descendants of Jacob has chosen to take a people for himself. Therefore the world can actually look and see a Nation who is in an un-breakable covenant relationship with God. The world can also read and know the actual terms of the Covenant. What this does is set up Israel as a Witness Nation to the world. The world knowing the terms of the Covenant can observe the cycles of Israel’s obedience and disobedience and see the Nature of God revealed by how He deals with Israel. In a sense Israel gives God the opportunity to demonstrate who He is to the world. A God who is Sovereign throughout history, keeps His Word, who is Just, yet Compassionate, a God who blesses obedience but will discipline the disobedient yet offering forgiveness to the repentant. Israel has also kept and protected the text of the Covenant and a history of their relationship with God in light of their Covenant. But I don’t think all this automatically qualifies the Tradition of the Elders to supersede Torah.

        I hope no one takes offense by this joke I once made up on the spur of a moment and told a friend, but it demonstrates what I’m saying. We were up in the mountains riding, looking for cattle, enjoying the scenery, discussing spiritual things. My Irish friend remarked; “Why do you think God picked the Jews? Was it because of Abraham?” I seriously replied; “Sure, no doubt, it was because God promised Abraham and God keeps His promises. But I think the real question is ‘Picked the Jews for What?'”. He replies; huh?” I asked him if he thought Jews were supposed to be a witness to the nature of God?”. He replies; “yeah, I guess so….what do you mean?” So I explain to him how the Prophets describes the Jews as a stubborn and stiff necked people, so what a better people to exhibit the long suffering, patience and love of God to the world? He laughed, to which I replied; “According to the Book of Ben Hur, had the Jews declined Gods offer, the Irish were His second choice!” He about fell off his horse he was laughing so hard.

        • CP You are welcome – your questions are also welcome

          What we see from Leviticus 25:9 is that when the Torah speaks about “years” they begin in the Seventh month (such as in Exodus 23;10; Deuteronomy 14:1; 31;11) – This seven year cycle had other ramifications – not only agricultural ones – this tells you that the counting of the months is a method of counting months not related to the beginning of a year.

          You have a problem with the book of Esther – but the people understood that this book was inspired by God – this was accepted while we still had prophets – so if there is an interpretation of God’s law that fits with this inspired book we accept that interpretation – I will point out that throughout the Bible you will find the names of pagan gods – despite the fact that the Bible was meant to be read aloud in public (Deuteronomy 31:12) showing that the commandment against uttering the names of pagan gods has some exceptions

          I don’t disagree that part of our function as a nation is that God’s justice and mercy are revealed in the way He deals with us – but that is a role aside from the role we serve as a witness nation – the Scriptures are very clear what we do as a witness nation

          And here’s a joke for you (it doesn’t go well in English – its a Yiddish joke) – the saying goes – God must be made of steel if He has patience for the Jews But jokes aside – it doesn’t say much about us when I say that our record is better than that of any other nation in terms of truth, justice and mercy – we are very far from perfect – but the Torah that God gave us lifted us a bit out of the mud – murder is not a Jewish vice and hasn’t been one for many years, the amount of charity we give is proportionately far higher than other nations and the level of kindness we extend to each other and to the world is something to consider

          1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B,
            Thanks again!
            I understand and agree there are different ways to count depending on what kind of year is being counted. And I acknowledge the identification of the first month may be more important to me because it puts the Feasts in the same order as I see the spring Feasts fulfilled in Yeshua and the fulfillment of the fall Feasts to be fulfilled at the coming of Messiah. For example the Feast of Trumpets is identified in Revelation as the next Feast to be fulfilled and the remaining two Feasts fulfilled within the same generation. There is enough evidence to think that generation could be of 1948 or 1967 (Matthew 21:18-19 in conjunction with Matthew 24:32-34). Strangely enough September 23rd 2017 might be a day predicted 2000 years ago in Revelation 12:1-2 as it only happens every 7000 years.

            R’B, contrary to some here who think I think otherwise, I’d like to affirm your statement and say I absolutely agree:

            “it doesn’t say much about us when I say that our record is better than that of any other nation in terms of truth, justice and mercy – we are very far from perfect – but the Torah that God gave us lifted us a bit out of the mud – murder is not a Jewish vice and hasn’t been one for many years, the amount of charity we give is proportionately far higher than other nations and the level of kindness we extend to each other and to the world is something to consider”

            I hope this doesn’t offend you, but this is also in agreement with Yeshua when he said; “….we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.”
            John 4:22

          • CP It might be interesting to you that the Jewish tradition also puts the feasts in that order (Passover first then Pentecost, Trumpets, Yom Kippur, Tabernacles and Shmini Atzeret) – You might also find it interesting that I responded to Dr. Brown’s Christian rendition of these festivals in Supplement to Contra Brown

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            R’B, I apologize for missing your replies, I don’t mean not to reply, I just don’t see them, in fact I was looking for where we talked about the 6th millennium and couldn’t find it, so wanted to share this:

            According to the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 97a, ” R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate…”. Ancient and medieval Kabbalists such as Nehunya ben HaKanah, in Sefer HaTemunah (written about 100 AD) and Rabbi Isaac of Acco understood these seven thousand years a running parallel to the Jewish Sabbatical cycle. In this cycle the fields are planted and harvested for six years and left unplanted in the seventh year.2

            R’B, if the Jewish calendar is corrected from 5777 to 5992 this puts us on the cusp of the 7th cycle. Christian Scripture has a predicted a sign in the heavens at Revelation 12:1 which is due to happen Sept 23rd 2017. Daniel and Revelation both can be interpreted as there being a final week of years. Typical Christian interpretation claims a 7 year tribulation period, the first 3.5 years of peace then 3.5 years of war then Messiah comes.

            That all being said, we could possibly start the 7 year week this year (Sept 23rd) which in 7 years puts us exactly at the 6000 year mark and Messiah.

          • CP No need to apologize – I understand – I miss some comments as well- the whole set up of comments on this format is confusing (this is not up to me it is the format of WordPress) Even if we are to adjust the numbers according to conventional chronology it is not clear what the number should be – some would put it at 5937 As I mentioned – the literal “6000 year” understanding is the popular one – but by no means the only interpretation of that Talmudic statement About predictions – there are so many predictions built on these flimsy foundations that I don’t pay heed to them – these predictions don’t bring you closer to God – the don’t bring more kindness, justice and truth into your life or into the lives of those around you – I try to keep myself busy with useful things

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

  2. Dina says:

    CP,

    I wrote a comment relevant to this topic to you. I don’t think you saw it, so here’s the link:

    https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2016/11/30/christian-anti-semitism-is-it-still-relevant-by-jim/#comment-31727

  3. Eleazar says:

    Well, CP, it must really bother you that the star of Solomon is an inverted Pentagram. 🙂

    • CP says:

      Eleazar,
      Penta = Five, therefore not the same. The star of Solomon has six points and traces its origin to Saturn. Which is kinda ironic considering Saturns day = Saturday = Sabbath. Not that I know of any ancient connection, other than a bizarre coincidence.

      • Dina says:

        CP, are you serious? The inverted pentagram is a Satanic symbol. But because it has five points but not six it’s okay?

        I have no problem with the Star of Solomon either. Just pointing out an inconsistency here.

        • Eleazar says:

          Dina, The inverted pentagram was the star of Solomon before it was a ever Satanic symbol.

          Yes, CP, The Star of Solomon has five points. Seal of Solomon has six.

          Irrelevant, actually. I was just making a point. ( nyuck, nyuck)

          • Dina says:

            That’s the point, Eleazar. Just because goyim appropriate our symbols doesn’t mean we have to give them up. My point to CP was that if the Star of David bothers him, then so should the inverted pentagram.

            I asked CP several times whether he is disturbed by God calling David a star. He has yet to answer.

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            Come back to reality, Amos clearly says the Israelites leaving Egypt took the Star with them. There was a resurgence of its use because of Solomon’s pagan wives who led him astray later in life. The symbol for the most part eventually went dormant again until it was revived by the Rothchilds and the Zionist movement.

            However if you’d rather believe fantasy rather than Amos that’s your business. Isn’t Amos part of the Witness Nation? Or have you kicked him out like you do Yeshua?

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            Perhaps you missed my original post concerning the matter??? But to answer your question here: I do not like ANY pagan symbols, period! And it may surprise you I have my reasons for not liking the ‘symbol’ of the ‘Cross’, but that’s another story. You are deluding yourself if you think the goyim appropriated the the inverted pentagram or the six pointed star from the Hebrews. I stand by my original statement; if Israel is to have a symbol, it should be something God given, such as the Menorah, Torah Scroll, Tablets of the Ten Words, rather than some pagan god symbol from the goyim. Go ahead and trace the Symbol back, how far cam you get? Does it ever appear in Torah? The answer is Yes! Read Amos! Your argument is not with me, it’s with Amos.

  4. Jim says:

    CP,

    Regarding the Star of David, as far as I can tell, you have made unwarranted assumptions. You assert that it is identical with the object of worship in Amos. But you have not demonstrated this to be a fact. It is mere assumption.

    Before I continue, I only wish to say that I am not interested in defending the Star of David. I have, as they say, no dog in this fight. I do not advocate that you take it up. And as others have pointed out, modern day Israel is secular, so that its non-Torah practices may and must be criticized.

    However, the star in Amos is not described.

    Let us say that I tell you that I have an image of a four-sided plane figure behind my back. With only that much information, you cannot identify it. Even if I told you that it has four equal sides, you could not identify it. You could eliminate possibilities, but you would not know if it were a rhombus or a square. If you said that you knew, you would be wrong.

    It is an unwarranted leap from the word “star” to “Star of David”. How do you know that they are one and the same? As has already been pointed out, there are various geometric stars, not all even six-sided. Not enough definition exists in Amos for you to identify it as the Star of David.

    Certainly the meaning associated with one is not associated with the other. One is treated as a symbol but not an idol. The other clearly was an object of worship. And though the Star of David is called “star,” this seems to refer only to its shape, not to it being associated with any heavenly body. It is also called the “Magen David,” as you know, “Shield of David”. Its original association may have had nothing to do with a star whatsoever.

    I do not know the origin of the Shield of David, and I certainly claim no expertise in this area. But your assumptions are unwarranted and unproven. Amos does not make clear any association with his star and the Shield of David. You do not have enough definition to make that claim. The Shield of David may not have any astrological association whatsoever, the term “star” only being applied to its shape. Though I, of course, do not mean to say that it is a fitting or unfitting symbol, I would point out that your argument is unsubstantiated.

    Jim

    • CP says:

      Jim,
      I don’t wish to post more proof, although I can if you wish, there is tons of it. Amos clearly gives us enough information to identify the star using the words; Sakkuth and Kaiwan. Any amount of research will quickly identify two things; the relation to Saturn and therefore the shape of the symbol.

      “Amo 5:26
      “You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves.

      Sakkuth = (Saturn) or shrine of your Moloch
      Kaiwan = (Saturn) or stands of
      kowkab ‘elohiym = your star gods

      “Chiun is sometimes called Kaiwan, or spelled Khiun, and means star. The star of Saturn was a god… Sakkuth and Kaiwan or Chiun are objects of idolatrous worship and are Assyrian gods. In Akkadian texts both names mean the planet or star, Saturn.” (Graham, The Six-Pointed Star, pp. 28-29).

      • Dina says:

        This is getting ridiculous, CP, forgive me. Why aren’t you answering my question about God calling David a star?

        Can you consider the possibility that you jumped to a conclusion concerning the Star of David–that a star can be a pagan symbol (I did not deny this, by the way), and it can also be a symbol for something else? The sun was also a pagan symbol, but I don’t think Obama using the rising sun as his symbol is in any way problematic.

        Tell me why or why not God calling David a star is disturbing. It is highly relevant to this discussion, you see, because it would then make sense for Jews to associate David with a star symbol.

        • Dina says:

          Just to be fair, about appropriation, you may be right. I cannot say with perfect confidence who preceded whom in using whichever symbols (though I daresay the pentagram preceded Solomon), because I have not done enough research nor do I care enough about the topic to do the research. So you can have the last word on this particular point.

          • Dina says:

            CP, I have posed to you the question of God calling David a star numerous times and you have not answered. The last time I pressed you repeatedly to answer a particular question, you explained that you demurred out of compassion for my feelings. However, I am sure that if you put your mind to it, you can answer the question without calling me ignorant and dishonest.

            Over on the “Claiming Originality” page, I presented you with a question I have been asking you for weeks. I feel confident that here, too, you can find words that respect rather than tear down your opponent as you answer this question.

            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/%EF%BB%BFclaiming-originality-excerpt-from-supplement/#comment-32178

        • CP says:

          “This is getting ridiculous, CP, forgive me. Why aren’t you answering my question about God calling David a star?”

          Sorry, I wasn’t clear:
          Context! Context! Context! —-was my answer to this.
          No it doesn’t disturb me one bit. Btw, Yeshua is also called the Morning Star in Revelation.

          However both examples are a far cry from making images of things in heaven. Wouldn’t you say?

          • Dina says:

            CP, I am confused and I hope you can clarify this for me. You are okay with David being called a star. You are okay with Jews associating David with a star. Are you saying that it’s not a pagan symbol but the only problem is “making images of things in heaven”?

            Meaning, Jews who use the Star of David as a symbol are not wrong to associate David with a star, nor are they using a pagan symbol, it’s just wrong to make an image of a heavenly body?

            If that’s the case, you are changing the discussion, which is fine–I just need to know where we’re headed.

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