RT, thats exactly how I felt in college studyimg both Judaism and Christianity.
Its profoundly sad, because When Christianity started, it started as a small Jewish sect, (with messianic ideas probably not disimmilar from those in Chabad, except centered around the Crucifixion) but when gentiles picked up the belief system, anything Jewish that had existed started to lose a foothold, and not only that, the Jewish Christians were persecuted out of existence.
Gentile Christisns had Sunday, Easter, (and much.much later Christmas.) They altered times and laws.
I always had to struggle between the clear words of Jesus (which seemed pro Torah on their face) and the replacement theology of the Church.
As a Christian, I never believed Jews were lost. How could the very people who taught Jesus’ ethic to the world, (the Torah ethic) be lost?
I remember feeling sick to my stomach after seeing Schindler’s list in 8th grade (for a school assignment.)
Was I supposed to believe that Nazi pigs with “Got Mit Unz” on their belts were “saved,” because they were Baptized? I never believed that.
I am proud of my family members who fought tooth and nail to send those Nazi pigs (may their bones be ground to dust) to their end.
Was I supposed to believe that the wonderful Dr. Who gave me the ability to walk was going to hell, just because he was Jewish?
No. Screw that.
I remember crying after Schindler’s list and my Jewish friends comforting me, and I thought “how screwed is this that they are comforting me?”
Why should a Jew have to comfort a Christian when its Christian books that contain the gas in them?
Christianity preaches a deity of love who died for you, but its a deity of love who exists without any sense of justice or measure for measure.
So, its not a deity of love, but one of possession. Not a relationship of mutual goodness, but of fear and dependence.
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Many many many Christians are leaving the paganized Christian churches and adopting pure biblical teachings: the Sabbath Rest, the Lords Feast Days, etc…
As members of the Body of Christ (Jesus as messiah is the Head), we aren’t trying to be Jewish — as in Messianic Jews, but we are trying to be biblical. There is no Easter, Christmas, Sunday worship or Lent in the bible. Entertaining these holidays is being absolutely disobedient to the first 4 of the 10 Commandments. There is no justification. It’s pure disobedience and hypocrisy.
During the reformation, The Protestant church had the chance to eliminate pagan worship, but then, It only had the courage to bring Jesus and the Gospel front and center. There are absolutely no excuses for the American denominational Christian churches now. Our Creator is Just. Thus, I truly feel sorry for Christian leaders in these end times. There isn’t much time to repent.
Theophilus,
It is laudable that you wish to extricate yourself from notions that are foreign to the Torah. I commend you from turning from invented celebrations and festivals. However, if you truly wish to devote yourself to God and divest yourself from worship foreign to God, you must give up also the invented god of Christianity, Jesus.
When God revealed Himself to the Jewish people in mass prophecy at Sinai, He was careful not to present any form for them. They heard only a voice. He did this so that Israel would not associate Him with any object within creation, not an animal, not the sun or moon, and not a human being (Deut. 4:9-20). In the same chapter in which this point is emphasized, it is plainly stated that God is alone and that this is the testimony of the Jewish people. “To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is none besides Him” (Deut. 4:35). At v. 39 it is repeated that there is none other besides God. And in Deuteronomy 6 comes the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one” (v. 4).
It is to this one transcendent God to whom you and I owe our devotion. It is not to a man. If you truly wish to divest yourself of elements foreign to Torah, you must not stop at rejecting those days not established by God. You must also turn away from the method and object of worship that He forbade. This is foreign worship and even worse than observing Christmas and Easter.
Jim
Jesus is foretold throughout the old testament…Isaiah 53 for one – I’m sure you’ve read it.
We can agree to disagree on this point.
Theophilus,
Let us say that Jesus was foretold throughout Tanach, what you call the Old Testament, for the sake of argument. That would not give permission to worship him. That does not make him a divine being. Indeed, any interpretation of a passage like Isaiah 53 that would seem to permit you to worship any human being violates an open command of Torah, one of the fundaments, in fact. Such an understanding must therefore be incorrect. So, even if we agreed that Isaiah 53 were written about Jesus, this would not mean that one should worship Jesus as God.
Jim
So is this a trinitarian objection? I just want to be clear.
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Trinity/trinity.html
https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-jews-and-the-trinity/
Theophilus,
To clarify my point:
Without identifying the servant of Isaiah 53, looking over the chapter, it is clear that the servant is not God. In fact, he is the servant of God. God and the servant are two separate entities. At the end of the chapter, God rewards the servant, whomever he is. This would be nonsense, if the servant were divine, himself. And, though the nations observe that their ideas about the servant were incorrect, they are not instructed to worship the servant; nor do they do so.
So, even if Jesus is the servant, this would not make him God. It would not make it permissible to violate the prohibition to worship a human being. Our devotion belongs to God alone.
Jim
Jim, to add fire to the discussion… Yesterday, my wife showed me a in this book (High Holiday Prayer Book Hardcover – January 1, 1951 by Morris Silverman (Author) ) a place where the Servant of Isaiah 53 is the messiah. How do you explain that?
RT,
Would you be able to scan and post the page? We can’t say anything until we see the whole passage.
I will on Monday…
That would be great. In the meantime, maybe this can help –
https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/
Accordingly, while on one hand the Talmud, Zohar, and other ancient rabbinic texts state explicitly that the “servant” of Isaiah 53 refers to the faithful of corporate Jewry, the same sources frequently point to renowned saints of Israel as an archetype of the Suffering Servant. These virtuous individuals include saints such as Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, the messiah the son of Joseph and David – each of them embodies perfect examples of God’s servant, the righteous remnant of Israel.
Bear in mind that the rabbinic commentary on Isaiah 53 is not dualistic or multilateral. Meaning, the sages of old did not suggest that Isaiah 53 refers to either the righteous remnant of Israel, Moses, Jeremiah, or an anointed leader. Rather, the servant in all four Servant Songs are the faithful descendants of Abraham. Isaiah 53 attests to an unprecedented worldwide repentance of all of mankind – a redemptive achievement accomplished by no other saint in history. Therefore, rabbinic commentators tend to lift up the messiah’s name more frequently than the names of other faithful servants of God.
Consequently, although various rabbinic literature highlights numerous Biblical saints whose lives exemplify the Suffering Servant of Israel in Isaiah 53, the future messiah is held up more frequently and prominently than any other pious Jew in this startling context; for the future anointed Davidic king will usher in this dramatic epoch in which the gentiles will repent, as outlined in Isaiah 53. In other words, the stunning narrative of the fourth Servant Song will be made possible by the reign of the messiah, the foremost member of God’s Suffering Servant, Israel. Only the messiah will accomplish this global achievement in the final redemption, which neither Abraham, Moses, or Jeremiah were able to accomplish. Only the messianic age will spawn worldwide repentance of the nations.
RT,
I have not read the machzor in question, so I cannot explain it. Silverman was not an Orthodox rabbi; he was Conservative. But I do not know if that influenced his reading of Isaiah 53. I certainly would not consider him authoritative, but that might not matter to your wife.
It might be worth pointing out to your wife, however, that Silverman obviously did not think that Jesus fit the bill, whatever he may have said about the Messiah.
Jim
Jim,
Yashar koach for finding out that he was not an orthodox rabbi. When I saw the book on amazon it looked kosher to me so I didn’t bother to research the author. The fact that he was not orthodox could very well have something to do with this but we’ll have to see the scan on Monday.
Theo,
Jews “have been shown so that we will know” and let others know that all people should only worship the INFINITE ONE to the exclusion of anything FINITE. Jesus the man is not in the tomb because he’s finite. Only the Father is in the tomb because He is infinite. So you should only worship the One who is infinite – the Father. How about it? I know you can do it. If you need help and support we are here for you. The Infinite Compassionate One loves you very much!
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Trinity/trinity.html
http://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html
Theo,
Those links don’t help me because they want me to picture in my mind something finite when I pray and serve God. My fathers and mothers all told me that their fathers and mothers were SHOWN by God Himself to only have in your mind and heart the idea of infinity as the object of our worship, no images of anything finite in our minds during worship such as a man. Do you understand what I’m saying. Could you please repeat back what I wrote so I can see if you understand what I said?
Jim,when a Christian reads:
“To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is none besides Him” (Deut. 4:35). At v. 39 it is repeated that there is none other besides God. And in Deuteronomy 6 comes the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one” (v. 4).
He has been trained to see- “the trinity is God, there is no other” and “The trinity is God, the trinity is one”. All general references to God are seen as references to the trinity, unless it specifies a certain person of the trinity either by name or by “role”. In Genesis 1-3 there is God the Father in heaven, God the holy ghost hovering above the deep, and God the son walking in the garden, according to Christian interpretation. To them this is clear as crystal.
Unless you get past that, there is no useful debate.
Thank you, Eleazar.
Jim
Theophilus,
In one of your links, the intent is to explain why Jews do not accept the Trinity. The explanation begins like this: “We see hints of the trinity in the Torah because we know about it.” This statement is quite illuminating.
What the author has admitted is that the Trinity is not taught in Torah. On the contrary, one has to learn about the Trinity first, and then he must search very carefully for verses that support this doctrine. Since no verses openly teach it—in fact, verses teach specifically against it—one has to search for “hints”. Theophilus, I hope that you will pay attention to what the Christian has admitted.
The Church has spent 2,000 years trying to justify various doctrines. Obviously, one of the major doctrines of the Church is that Jesus is part of the godhead. But the Torah does not teach this. Indeed, it says openly that one should not worship anything in creation and that God is alone. It says that God spoke to Israel at Sinai the way He did, so that Israel would know this. These are clear and open statements. To counter these statements, the Church searches intently for a verse to take out of context, a word that could be misrepresented to justify prohibited worship. There is a reason that the Church relies on hints rather than clear statements. The Church has forced its own imaginings into the Word of God.
In doing so, the Church has practiced a cruel deception. It has directed the love that rightly belongs to God to a man, an impostor god. Consider that I wished to convince you that your wife did not mind you taking a mistress. Imagine that my method was to take a love letter from her to you and chose a word here and a phrase there to indicate to you that she means for you to take a lover. I doubt you would believe me. It is no more believable that God, though He made clear that He would tolerate worship of none beside Him, really meant that people should worship someone else, if we would only find the hints and read between the lines.
Please consider the following parable:
A certain married man had taken a mistress. One day he said to himself that it just did not seem right to violate the marriage vows he had taken with his wife. So, he decided that from that point on he would no longer celebrate his mistress’ birthday or his anniversary with her. But he did not stop having the affair. Will his wife be pleased to find out that he has a mistress, but he does not celebrate her birthday?
You are likely a good fellow with good intentions. As I wrote before, it is commendable that you wish to give up Christmas and Easter. But these are just the mistress’ birthday and anniversary. Worshiping Jesus is still a violation of what you owe only to God. No amount of hints can make acceptable the violation of God’s openly stated commandments. They cannot justify giving God’s due to another.
Jim
Jim,
Excellent! And how would the husband feel if his wife took a love letter he wrote to her and searched for “hints” in his words that he wants her to have another lover on the side in addition to her husband?
Brother Theophilus. I hope my comments in the article above did not offend you.
In Deuteronomy 4 G-d tells Israel not to worship “the whole host of heaven,” IE if there were a group of persons within G-d, or angels, or forces of nature, ie the host the Torah clearly instructs Israel that they have a one on one relationship with the father only and not to worship the host.
For example. Many Christians see the “captain of the lords host,” from Joshua chapter 5 as being the logos pre incarnate.
However, this angel (who Christians regard as the Logos) is explicitly identified as a member of the host, so he’s off limits for Jews to pray to.
I’m sure you are aware of the serpent of brass that Moses made? The Israelites knew that G-d’s presence was on the serpent of brass, and that they were commanded to gaze upon it.
However, the Torah states plainly and clearly that Israel commited the sin of idol worship when they called the serpent of brass nehushtan, and worshipped it.
I’d reccomend that you read the articles starting points, and also idolatry (they have my screen name attached if you use the search bar.)
Deuteronomy 4 warns Jews not to associate a form with G-d because to do so can make them corrupt.
Think of how many Christians have died by the hands of other Christians over differences of how the nature and form of Jesus is defined by diverse theologies.
If you lived in an area dominated by monophysites in antiquity for example, and if you believed Jesus had two natures, you may have been killed by the monophysites. IE men act corruptly when dealing with Ideas about G-d’s form.
Why? Because you would have been arguing and causing division over the “form of G-d.” It is for this reason that Torah says “the secret things beling to G-d.”
Deuteronomy 4 explains to Jews the clear danger of ascribing any form to the almighty, and Christian history is full of the bloodshed that results from arguments about G-d’s alleged form.
CR,
Could you point me to an article about inter-Christian fighting and violence over the nature and form of God or of Jesus?
Also could you try to find a source for the idea that the Jews believed that God’s presence rested on the brass snake? I am not familiar with this idea that the Shekhinah rested on the brass snake. Maybe they thought it did, but I don’t think it actually did.
Alan, the were literally wars fought over the question of the “deity of Christ”, although both sides believed Jesus was divine in one way or the other. Arianism VS Athanasianism. But the truth is, trinitarianism and “the full deity of christ” has always been the standard and test of Christian faith, in very much the same way Unitarianism has been the test of Jewish faith.
CR is correct: when the church killed or burned “heretics”, the doctrine of orthodox christology was a common motivator. Even today, one can expect to be shunned and rejected by most churches for speaking any doubt about the “full deity of christ”.
Eleazar,
Thank you. I googled these terms but couldn’t find anything about inter-Christian wars. Christians burned Christians from other Christian sects just for having a different understanding of the deity of Jesus?
Yes. It is crucial to understand Christian thinking and reasoning as taught by the New Testament. NT is big on “you are of your father the devil…he is the father of lies…and when the devil lies he is speaking his native language.” as well as “This is my house, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.
Christians reason that false teachings and heresy ( like all things bad) come from Satan, that heretics are the product of Satan and that through these heretics Satan hopes to defeat Jesus’ church. The struggles and failures of the church are ALWAYS attributed to Satan working through people.
This continues today. In any Christian debate between sects, say Arminians vs Calvinists, the eventual end of these debates is that each side accuses each other of spiritual blindness, and even being “under the control of Satan” and “an enemy of christ”. No different than what they do to us here, but usually MUCH worse between each other than between Jews and Christians. The Christians who come here try to represent their faith through a softer debate style, and try to present a united front. Between themselves, however, it get ruthless. See: Ireland, Spanish Inquisition, Waldensians, Arianism, Constantinius, Luther, Calvin, Wesley.
Here is an abridged excerpt from 19th century Adventist author and “prophet”, Ellen G White describing the struggle between Roman Catholicism and anyone who did not accept its advancing pagan compromises:
But there is no union between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness, and there can be no union between their followers….If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war.
~ The Great Controversy pg 45
Jesus taught “A house divided against itself cannot stand”. So the Christian response to the reality of heated, even warring, divisions among Christians is to accuse the other side of “not being part of the house”, “not REAL Christians”. Otherwise, they would have to admit that Christianity, Jesus’ “house”, either did not stand or Jesus’ word’s were false.
Thank you Eleazar, this is very helpful!
Sources for arguing about the nature of Jesus and christological controversies can be found in the Church fathers. The website New Advent has many such writings.
Regarding the brass serpent of brass and G-d’s presence. Its an extrapolation from the fact that this icon apparently had such a sustained presence among the people.
It took a long time before it was concidered an idol. It wouldnt have been deified by Jews unless they thought G-d dwelled in it.
Most foreign deities worshipped by Israel were believed to be connected to or working for G-d
CR,
It makes sense what you’re saying. But the truth is that there was no shekhinah on it even if they thought so.
Alan, this book will help you understand why I see the brass serpent episode that way.
This author believes that Hashem showed and taught the Jews in Egypt and in the desert that He is a body or a form?
Not exactly. There is an audio lecture on youtube too. Hashem having a form in visions, or temporarily appearing does not change the commandment that humans are forbidden to worship any form or the host of heaven.
When hashem speaks through some angelic agents in the Torah, its almost as if G-d is using the malach like a sock puppet.
CR,
That’s right. Also when Hashem appears in a prophetic vision in some form we have to remember this is only in a vision, not in the physical world, and it was designed to teach something to the prophet about how Hashem runs the world. The visions are metaphors that Hashem uses to impress knowledge of Hashem’s providence upon the prophet’s mind. Just like in the written text we find the metaphors of body parts to convey how He runs the world, so too in prophetic visions He uses 3-dimensional virtual metaphors to reveal His running of the world to the prophet’s mind.
The point is, the metaphirs are still a form.
Also, the idea of verses where agents appear like sock puppets makes it easy to believe in manufestations of G-d as a form, even if its only metaphor.
I actually read a rabbi once, (I think it was Abraham Abulafia) who said something to the effect of
“Christians understand literally what they should understand metaphorically, and they understand metaphorically what they should understand literally.
“The point is, the metaphirs are still a form.”
But the form is not God, it is a creation, not the Creator. The forms that He shows to a prophet don’t limit or delimit or circumscribe God at all. But I think you got this.
Thanks for the good quote.
Con, I love this quote:
“Christians understand literally what they should understand metaphorically, and they understand metaphorically what they should understand literally.”
Thanks for sharing.
Dr. Sommer uses the term “form” to discuss several concepts such as Ezekiel’s chariot vision, the pillar of cloud, and the angel who is almost interchangeable with G-d in certain verses.
We are told in Torah that Jacob makes an alter and pours oil on it. Dr. Sommer shows how in antiquity when one did this, it was a way to bring the deity’s presence into the object.
Even in Christianity “sight of G-d” is understood as beatific vision, perception of the heart, etc.
Tanakh says that Hashem is everywhere at once. If He’s everywhere then what is meant by “the presence” of Hashem? He’s always present everywhere. He both infinitely transcends the universe and infinitely permeates the universe at once. So what is meant by God’s presence being in or on something? Since He’s already present everywhere equally, all this can mean is that He is using various means (physical and spiritual) to make people more aware of His existence, omnipotence, omniscience, and caring for them. He’s “turning up the volume” in a certain location or at a certain time. But all of the ways and means He uses to get us to heighten our awareness of Him do not limit Him or even define His true nature at all. They are not Him or even a part of Him. And we only worship Him – the God who is everywhere. Anything that has a form – be it a physical or spiritual form – is by definition limited. And what is limited cannot be everywhere and all powerful.
RT, if the servant is Moshiach, he is just one such suffering servant among the whole people.
We tend to say the suffering servant is either Israel or Messiah, when it neednt be one or the other, but can be both.
Look closely at these verses from Luke 1 below.
46 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant. (The humble servant is Mary who is afraid of being accused by her husband,) and in this case, she is a suffering righteous member of the people.)
From now on all generations will call me blessed (because Jesus another suffering servant is in her womb)
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped HIS SERVANT ISRAEL.
RIGHT HERE IN LUKE 1:54 IS VINDICATION OF THE TRADITIONAL JEWISH UNDERSTANDING OF ISRAEL AS THE SERVANT.
RT,
Isaiah says so many times that the servant is Israel, the children of Jacob. Please read many of the chapters before and after 53 to see this. The text never says this servant is the Messiah. So when the rabbis say midrashically – not prophetically – that the servant is the Messiah (or another special leader) – they are not saying they are prophets! They are certainly not saying 53 is the messiah to the exclusion of the rest of the Jewish people. They are “reading into” the text TO TEACH us – NOT TO PROPHECY TO US OR CHANGE THE SIMPLE MEANING OF THE TEXTS – that the Messiah and some other specific great Jewish leaders will LEAD, SPEARHEAD and EPITOMIZE Israel as the servant. The messiah will be the most shining example to the world of the mission of the servant Israel. Does this help?
Here are all of the “servant” verses in Isaiah that refer to Israel. One refers to Isaiah himself (49:5) –
Isaiah 41
8 But thou, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend;
9 Thou whom I have taken hold of from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the uttermost parts thereof, and said unto thee: ‘Thou art My servant, I have chosen thee and not cast thee away’;
Isaiah 42
1 Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon him, he shall make the right to go forth to the nations.
19 Who is blind, but My servant? Or deaf, as My messenger that I send? Who is blind as he that is wholehearted, and blind as the LORD’S servant?
Isaiah 44
1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen;
2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
21 Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee, thou art Mine own servant; O Israel, thou shouldest not forget Me.
Isaiah 45
4 For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel Mine elect, I have called thee by thy name, I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known Me.
Isaiah 49
3 And He said unto me: ‘Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’
5 And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him–for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength– (This verse is obviously Isaiah speaking about himself.)
Isaiah 52
13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
Isaiah 53
11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
Isaiah 54
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their due reward from Me, saith the LORD.
Here are the servant verses from Jeremiah –
Jeremiah 30
10 Therefore fear thou not, O Jacob My servant, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel; for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall again be quiet and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jeremiah 46
27 But fear not thou, O Jacob My servant, neither be dismayed, O Israel; for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall again be quiet and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
28 Fear not thou, O Jacob My servant, saith the LORD, for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; and I will correct thee in measure, but will not utterly destroy thee.
The simple meaning of all of the servant verses in all of the Book of Isaiah are referring to Israel or to Isaiah himself (49:5). If it was so important to Hashem that we know that the servant in 53 is ONLY the Messiah and not the rest of the Jews, then He would have put the words “the Shoot” or “David my Servant” or “Prince of Israel” in the verse as He has done elsewhere in Tanakh.
Brother Alan,
Yeshua called himself “son”
Israel is called “first born son or son”
Yeshua is called Logos (word of God in John’s gospel)
Israel is called the priest (who receives and gives word of God) to the nations.
When the finite life of the Logos of God died on the cross, after some 40 years, the temple in the nation Israel was destroyed.
When the most ancient Logos of God was found in the dead sea caves in 1947, the nation Israel was found the way to rebirth. It seems to me that The destiny of Israel and Yeshua or Church goes same way.
Yeshua identified himself with Israel when he appeared as the logos( the light) to Saul saying “Why do you persecute ME?”
He meant Israel= church!
It is not biblical to compare Israel with the church as a different community or instituion since both were “called out ones by the Logos of God”
Concerned Reader Thanks for this! 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >