1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources

David

In response to comment – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/sins-of-confusion-ii-response-to-david/#comment-19243

Thanks again for your thought out reply – I truly believe that respectful discussions such as these that don’t beat around the bush will bring us all closer to the truth.

Your entire post reveals a deep misunderstanding of my position so I will first attempt to clarify my position and to put the discussion in context.

On a superficial level our argument centers on the concept of “representative idolatry” – in other words, making an idol and worshiping it as a representation of the true God.

My position is that this is possible, that it is considered idolatry by the Author of Scripture but that in a certain limited sense it is a bit less evil than outright idolatry. Furthermore, I believe that the worship of the golden calves (at Sinai and of Jeroboam) is an example of this representative idolatry as well as the idol of Micah described in Judges 17,18.

You position is not clear to me. I recognize that you believe that the worship of the golden calves of Sinai and Jeroboam as well as the worship of the idol of Micah were not examples of representative idolatry but I do not understand your position on the other issues. Do you believe that representative idolatry is not possible? Do you believe that if someone creates an idol as a representation of the true God and worships it that it would not be considered idolatry? Do you believe that the Bible never addresses the issue of representative idolatry?

The context of our discussion is Trinitarian Christianity. I recognize that you are not a Trinitarian and I respect you for recognizing the fallacy of that falsehood but there still seems to be a difference between us on this matter. I believe that although those who worship Jesus as a divinity believe that he is somehow “one and the same” as the God of Israel are still engaged in idolatry. You seem to believe differently and you seem to be basing your argument on the fact that the Bible never addresses representative idolatry.

But even if you are correct in your assessment of the Bible (and I hope to demonstrate that the Bible DOES address representative idolatry) I don’t know how you could jump to the conclusion that the worship of the Trinitarian Christians is not idolatry. The fact of the matter is that they are not worshiping Jesus because they believe that he created heaven and earth. They wouldn’t need Jesus if that is what they were trying to do. Their worship is inspired by the activities that were expressed in a human body (an allegedly sinless life and death on a cross). How do you see the fact that they believe that Jesus is “one and the same” as the One who created heaven and earth as a factor that changes the act of worship?

In fact I would say that this is actually worse than representative idolatry. Representative idolatry begins with a desire to worship God. The worshiper then makes a statue to represent the true God. The motivator is a desire to worship God. In the case of Jesus the historical motivator was a desire to exalt Jesus. The theological conundrum that posits that Jesus is “one and the same” as God was only conjured up to justify the worship that had already begun – if not in the sense of worshiping him as a divinity, but certainly in the sense of being overwhelmed by his character.

One more clarifying statement before we get to our differences in Biblical interpretation. You seem to think that I believe that representative idolatry is not a rebellion against God. That is a mistake. I believe that representative idolatry is a rebellion against God, not only in the sense that it is a direct violation of His commandment not to create an image but because it is worship of a different entity than God. Men may think that this physical being represents God but the Bible teaches us that it is worship of the physical being and not worship of God. Representative idolatry is a rejection of God, a rebellion against Him and a turning away from Him. People may attempt to fool themselves into thinking that this is not the case, but the Bible teaches us that this is in fact what is happening in the hearts of the people.

The only way in which I believe that representative idolatry is less than outright idolatry is because there is an element of confusion. This element of confusion would not hold up in a court of Biblical judges to save a person from the death sentence. The letter of the Law only recognizes the mitigating factor of “unintentional” and this confusion wouldn’t qualify as unintentional because God explicitly commanded against it. But we see that when God judges, He considers factors beyond the simple line of intentional vs. unintentional. I see this mainly in the difference of the way the Scriptures discuss the sin of the golden calves of Jeroboam and the way they discuss other idolatry. They are both rebellion against God and both are a rejection of God but the one has an element of confusion and the other doesn’t. But I do agree with you that this distinction is largely irrelevant because as far as humans are concerned both are rebellion against God. If you didn’t notice, most of my blog is dedicated to exposing the error of representative idolatry and demonstrating how despite the sophistry of theologians it is still rebellion against God. (- See for example   https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/isaiah-44/  )

Now that we have clarified (I hope) what it is that we are trying to prove let us approach the various Scriptures.

I will begin with Deuteronomy 4:15 because that is where I believe that God is commanding us against idolatry in a way that clearly includes representative idolatry.

Why would someone who is consciously rebelling against God and rejecting Him give a hoot if God did or did not show Israel a form at Sinai? Is this rejecter of God not turning his or her back on everything that God taught them? Why would this idolater care if God showed Israel a form or not? This person isn’t even trying to worship the God who spoke to Israel at Sinai.

Or perhaps let me word it this way – if someone does want to engage in representative idolatry would the prohibition expressed in Deuteronomy 4:15 not apply to such a person? I do not see how any of your arguments on this subject change the simple reading of the verses.

You wrote that God showed Israel no form so that they should stand apart from the nations around them in that they worship no form. Exactly! And if they do make a form to represent God they would be just like the nations around them.

At this point I will address the points you raise in your comment in the order that you raised them.

I agree with you that not every image is an idol. In fact I believe that the act of idolatry is a sin of the heart and can be committed without a physical image. If the worshiper imagines his or her object of worship and directs devotion to that object (such as a fictional character described in a book) that would also be idolatry. (See – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/trinity-idolatry-and-worship/   )

On the question of whether the golden calf was still present when Moses called that those loyal to God should gather at the gate of the camp. You argue that it would have taken too long for Moses to grind the calf down to dust. But would it have taken a long time for Moses to remove the calf and take to a place where he or those loyal to him could begin the grinding process? Why would he allow the worship to continue if he could physically remove the calf?

In response to my question about the mindset of the people 3000 years ago you lecture me on the concept of embodiment. I am well aware of the concept of embodiment and that is precisely my point. Those worshiping the calf did not believe that the piece of metal took them out of Egypt but that the power who did take them out of Egypt was somehow embodied, represented, manifest, incarnated or hypostatically unified in the calf in front of them.

So which power did they believe took them out of Egypt? Was it one of the Egyptian gods who were ALL afflicted at the time of the exodus (Exodus 12:12; Numbers 33:4). I don’t think that that would be logical even for people living 3000 years ago.

I pointed out to you that the worshipers of the Ba’al wanted the prophets of God dead while the worshipers of Jeroboam’s golden calves did not. I believe that this lends weight to my argument that the worshipers of the golden calf deceived themselves with the argument that the golden calves were somehow representative of God. I do not see how your arguments counter my point. The fact that Jezebel was involved in Ba’al worship and the fact that you believe that there were more Ba’al worshipers than there were worshipers of the golden calves does not mitigate my point.

I do agree with you that the frequency of Ba’al worship was far greater than worship of the golden calves but I don’t see how this quantitative difference justifies the difference in the way the Scriptures describe the two worships.

You ask me if the idolatry of Solomon (1Kings 11:5) was representative idolatry and how determine which worship is representative and which is not.

Response – Solomon’s worship was not representative idolatry simply because the verse explicitly names the idols and the name of the true God is not mentioned anywhere in association with these idols. The way I see if a particular worship is representative is if the Scriptures associate the true God with this idol – such as when the Scriptures tell us that the worshipers claimed that their idol was the one that took them out of Egypt or when the name of God is used in association with the idol (Exodus 32:5).

The fact that you ask me how does the fact that the Northern Kingdom being exiled because of idolatry “square” with my theory – shows how you don’t understand my theory. I never said that representative idolatry is not idolatry. This brings me to your next point when you argue against my theory by saying that God always defines idolatry as a rejection of God. Of-course! When one worships a calf, a person or the fictional character of some Greek book they are certainly rejecting God. And this simple fact does not change if the worshiper deceives him or herself into thinking that their object of worship is representative of God or not. All that I was saying is that because there is an element of confusion present in this worship so it is a bit less of a rebellion than outright idolatry where the worshiper does not even bother paying lip-service to wanting to worship God.

You claim that I cited commentators that post-date the advent of Christianity in support of my theory of representative theology. Can you point out to me where I have ever cited any authority aside from the Bible?

You present a theory that the reason that God had the Jews make a tabernacle and an ark of the covenant, why He put a pillar of cloud and fire in their midst was because of their pagan inclinations. How then do you explain the fact that the prophets predicted a physical Temple in the Messianic era (e.g. Isaiah 2:1) when such pagan influences will be eradicated?

You cite the fact that the Jews were worshiping idols of other nations from the times of their ancestors – I don’t see how this has a bearing on our discussion.

You ask why would Joshua link inclining their hearts to God with the act of putting away foreign gods if their hearts were already inclined toward God by way of representative idolatry. –  I never said that the Jews always engaged in representative idolatry. Even if they would have been engaged in representative idolatry Joshua would not have been satisfied because that is still idolatry. In any case – The Jewish people worshiped God all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders that lived on after Joshua (Joshua 24:31) – so the Jews of that generation were not engaged in any type of idolatry.

David – I feel I responded to the points that you raised and I hope that you will understand my position. If you still disagree with me – I encourage you to write again and articulate your position – but before you do that I would like you to consider one question:

If a person were to take a statue and stand it up before him – and this person would tell himself and his friends that this statue represents, is a manifestation of, is symbolic of, and/or is an incarnation of the God who created heaven and earth – and then this person would bow down toward the statue believing that he perceives the greatness of God in the beauty of the statue – would you consider this idolatry? Or more importantly – what do you believe that the Bible teaches about such an act – or does the Bible teach anything on this subject?

(My response would be that the Bible directly addresses this and teaches us that this is worship of the statue and not worship of God – but I wonder what your response would be).

Thanks again

Yisroel

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Another video from Judaism Resources –

http://www.judaismresources.com/video-and-audio-lectures.html

We have added another video presentation on the Judaism Resources website. We have also made some classes available as downloads.

http://www.judaismresources.com/video-and-audio-lectures.html

We added a new video to the collection on Judaism Resources – it is entitled “King in Israel”

A Story and a Song

(This is the story of a woman who found the truth. Name withheld by request)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z998skmvL4Y

I think everything started with my conversion to an evangelical church from another evangelical church. Until the age of 15 I was member of a Reform Church, a sort of Lutheran church, but I never attended the church because I didn’t speak the language that was spoken in my father’s church. So, when I first entered a Baptist church, I was very impressed and I decided in that very moment that I want to serve and obey God. My mother was Orthodox (the eastern European branch of Christianity) who gave up believing in those nonsense saints and the virgin Mary. So, after I make my conversion to Baptist Church, I started to read the Bible, It was so normal for me to start with Genesis…nowadays people read almost only The New testament. In my mind was very clear that God is One and that Jews are the chosen people, but I knew absolutely nothing about Jews and Israel. After a while, after I started attending a Baptist high school, things started to change little by little in my mind…God is one, but is also three and that God gave up to Jews because they rejected Jesus.

Meanwhile my mother converted to J`s witnesses and she tried to convince me that God is One because 1 plus 1 plus 1 is always three, not one. This became a big dilemma for me. And I had only two perspectives: the Baptist explanation about trinity and J`s witnesses explanation, but neither one or the other could convinced me clearly. Sometimes I told to myself that God is a mystery, and the whole story…we are sinners, we can`t save ourselves, God came in Jesus to save us, Jews failed awfully to be the light for nations etc. etc. So, I was impressed by this way of God to solve the problem of sin…only through Jesus blood. I was taught that in the hope in a future messiah the sins of all Jews who lived before Jesus era were forgiven. You know the whole Christian story.

In 2003 something great happened…a group of Messianics came to our church…with tallit, kippa, shofar and it was a shock for me. I was shaken by a thought…maybe the Jews know the Scripture better. This group brought a new perspective upon the Scripture, especially upon the New Testament. Then I started to be interested in Jewish history and culture. Sometimes I had the courage to search a Jewish (traditional not Messianic) interpretation regarding the Bible, especially Genesis. I discovered great things, I told to my Bible study group, but they were very severe with this enthusiasm of mine. They told me that Jews have only the eggshell, they missed the essence by rejecting Jesus and I had such a deep regret about Jews and a deep pity.

In 2007 our first child was born and we wanted very much to give her a Hebrew name… we knew nothing about Hebrew, we knew only the meaning of the name. Than in 2010 our boy was born and of course he had to have a Hebrew name….

From 2012 things have precipitated. In that summer I discovered a Messianic song of an American who converted to “Messianic Judaism” (I know now it is a contradiction). I was mad about that song…”Shema Israel”. Someone commented on this song and said that a real Jewish singer is Avraham Fried. I search on youtube for Avraham Fried and that was a very very important point in my life, a milestone. Instantly I forgot about that messianic singer and I “converted” to hasidic music. Before, I never listened to Jewish music, except those well-known Jewish songs like “Hava nagila”. I started to search translations of Fried`s songs. Meanwhile, in those years I discovered Amos Oz who became my favorite writer. So, with Amos Oz in my mind and Abraham Fried in my soul, a thought came into my mind…what if I start to learn Hebrew……..to read Oz in original and to understand Jewish music? I knew that somebody long time ago told me he learn Hebrew at the Jewish community from our town. I went there, I knocked the door, I entered and indeed there was a Hebrew class. From next Sunday I became a student. Some friends told me when they found out that I am going to Jewish Community to learn Hebrew, that I have to be very, very careful because Jews don`t have grace and they saw a danger not to become a “legalistic” . I assured them that my teacher is not at all a religious person and she doesn`t allow religious discussions at all.  (after a year I understood why…there was a Christian family (who keep the Law) who attended the class and their mission in life is to tell to Jews the gospel.

Avraham Fried has a song in Yiddish “Nisht gedaiget yiden” . That song is about waiting Moshiach. A question was raised in my mind…why Jews still wait for the Messiah…isn`t it very very obvious that Jesus is the Messiah? But my question was not an ironic one regarding Jews beliefs. It was a real question. But who could answer me why Jews are still waiting. Until then, I had a superior feeling that Jews miss something. I had a deep pity as I told in the previous e-mail about them, about Holocaust (I was convinced that Holocaust was the fulfillment of those words “his blood be upon us and our children” (when the Jews killed Jesus). Listening that song, I couldn`t have that feeling anymore. That song has a positive energy, a strength, a real hope.

In 2013 I heard about a Messianic group who comes to our city every second Friday. I went very excited. Oh, how much I liked those Hebrew songs, that “Jewish” atmosphere. I went there for a year. I have to say that from my teenage period when I “converted”, or became “born again”, I liked to question things, not just to accept them. But sometimes we have a great impression that we really question things, but how do we know that we get the answer, the right answer? My problem was that I didn`t have a real good objective source. I didn`t know that I have to check or how to check the answers, but this way of mine of question things, really helped me, thank God.

Now, back to my “Messianic” period. I was impressed, I was happy that maybe I found the truth. All my life I was searching about the TRUTH. I have been a very very good baptist believer, sometimes I was very sure that my doctrine is the best. I liked to argue on religious themes, I liked to defend the baptist doctrine, sometimes I liked to believe that Jesus really is God. But in my last 10 year my mind became allergic to the word trinity. In my last 2-3 year I couldn`t listen sermons about trinity, I closed my ears to that word, but I didn`t know how to explain, how to understand who is Jesus, who is Holy Spirit. Living in a Christian context is very very hard for someone to think in other way. It is almost something genetic this way of thinking. Besides, every Christian inherits lens through which he/she sees and understands things.

This “rabbi” guy seemed to me atypical, but I decided that I won`t judge persons anymore, but doctrine. But after a while I found strange some of the things he “preached”, but I said he is a messianic rabbi, he is a JEW, he knows better. I “forgave” his nonsense. I continued to attend that congregation because I was happy to hear that many many Jews around the world and especially from Israel turn to Jesus. I was still sorry about the “traditional” Jews because they reject their Messiah. This guy was saying this many times. But a thing began to bother me a lot…the “rabbi” was promoting a “healthy” ecumenism and this sounds not ok at all for me and I started to be very very careful about what he is teaching. He is a man with charisma and he really knows how to “entertain” people, how to sell his “products”.

When I couldn`t accept all his nonsense, it happened that my curiosity about traditional Judaism became bigger and bigger. But it took me a lot of courage to search articles on important themes like trinity, Torah, Shabbat. First I searched messianic sites and I started to read a lot, almost day and night. And my Christian beliefs started to shake, but I was not afraid because I now I had Yeshua who was a real Jew and the son of God.

Then the war began, the last summer war (2014) from Israel. My husband and I were very concerned about Israel, we mourned every Jewish soldier. We wanted to share this care, this love for Israel, but we realized that most of our friends find Israel as guilty and bad, not honest. We were so disappointed and sad that Christians are against Israel and rather pro Islam. We asked very seriously if we are on the right side, if we are not just blinded by this great love for Israel. So, I began to read history, to follow online debates on this theme and we wanted to meet people who share our position.

We heard about a man from other baptist church that he is very pro-Israel. We contacted this man and after a while we discovered that he is a pure monotheist, believing in the Only God, the God of Israel. I told him about my problem with trinity, with Sabbath and he told his story how God allowed a certain disease in his life and how he discovered in suffering the truth about God, about Torah. I was very encouraged to go on with my questions and I took the courage to approach the real Judaism. It was a matter of life and….nothing. All or nothing. I started with Jesus or Yeshua. I faced Paul and his teachings and I discovered that he changed a human into a God. I faced the problem of infallibility of New Testament. I faced 2000 years of Christianity. It was a hard fight. I had, I still have many many questions. After a while, I understood very very clearly that Jesus (if ever existed) was mere a man. But for several days I had a strange and painful feeling. It was like the 2000 years of Christianity were my life and now I have to give up. It is hard to describe those feelings. But after that I started to feel FREE, I began to see life in a different way. I realized that now I am only with Hashem, no mediator between us, just me and God and his Torah. This makes me more responsible for my life, for my beliefs. Before this, I was as well a very responsible Christian because all my life I wanted to serve and obey God.

But now, in May 2015 I am asking what I am going to do from now on. What Law should I keep? What I am going to teach my children. They know about Jesus, they love Jesus. I explained them that we have to pray only to God, not to Jesus. I never told them to pray to Jesus but in our friends circle, everyone is praying to Jesus, so they involuntarily prayed to Jesus. Now they pray only to God and without “in Jesus name”. I can`t tell them yet much about our new belief system, but we hope that Hashem will guide us how to teach them the truth of God.

So this is my story. It has many others details, but mainly this is my way of discovering the truth about God.

My prayer for now is to meet in my country other people who turn to the real God, the God of Israel.

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Yisroel C. Blumenthal

Sins of Confusion II – Response to David

David

In response to comments –

https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/04/16/sins-of-confusion-response-to-david/#comment-18754

https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/04/16/sins-of-confusion-response-to-david/#comment-18755

First of all let me thank you for taking the time to write these lengthy and thought out comments. Discussions such as these that are centered on the word of God will only bring us all closer to the truth.

Second of all let me say up front that I agree with you that the most important distinction in the realm of sin is the distinction that exists between intentional and unintentional. Let me further state that I believe that the sin of the golden calf at Sinai, the idol of Micah, and the golden calves of Jeroboam were all intentional sins. The only point that I was trying to make is that this intentional sin is no worse than the idolatry of modern Christians. Both modern Christians and the worshipers of those idols mentioned in the Bible know what they are doing. It is only confusion that assuages their conscience but the sin in all of these cases is intentional and I believe that you put down very solid criteria for defining intentional sin. I do stand corrected on my usage of words. In a comment I mistakenly used the word “unintentional” (in describing Christian idolatry) when I should have used the words “confused.”

In your classification of intentional sin you wrote that the subject needs to know that the commandment originates with God. And Christians do know this. They know that the Jewish Bible originates with God. They know that the Jewish Bible is the standard by which the claims of Christianity ought to be measured and this according to the admission of the founders of Christianity. In other words, Jesus clearly accepted the authenticity of the Jewish Bible. Therefore Christians should realize that all of his claims need to be analyzed in light of the Jewish Bible.

Christians also knowingly violate God’s commandment when they worship Jesus. They understand full well that worshiping a man is prohibited by God. It’s just that they were tricked by the smoke and mirrors of the Christian Scriptures into thinking that this man is somehow different from other men. But this does not make the sin “unintentional” only “confused.”

I also find your illustration of the two altars at Sinai to be illuminating. This illustration of yours is one of the most powerful condemnations of Christianity that I have ever read. God made a covenant with Israel and He put the terms of that covenant down in the Jewish Bible. In this book He also speaks of the new covenant but He never speaks of a new law. Along come the teachers of Christianity and introduce a dichotomy between the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament.” This clearly demonstrates that the Christians realize that they are not worshiping the God that created heaven and earth as described in the Hebrew Bible. If they would be worshiping that God they wouldn’t turn to a Greek Testament. They would recognize as did the prophets that the Law of God is perfect. The fact that they turn to a new book tells us that although they may be confused but this is still a rebellion against God.

I will comment on some of the points you made, I do agree with most of what you wrote. I never classified the worship of the golden calf as “unintentional” so the majority of your comments are addressing a straw man.

You argued and you continue to argue that the failure of most Israelites to gather to Moses as did the Levites indicates a continuation of the rebellion (Exodus 32:26). I pointed out that this is not likely being that the calf was already destroyed in verse 20. I believe that the more likely explanation is that the people understood the purpose of Moses’ call, which was to kill the violators, and that was something that was too difficult for them to join. I don’t see how any of your words mitigate my point.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the primary function of the sacrificial system was to deal with unintentional sin and not to deal with intentional sin. It seems though that most Christians disagree with us. Just read the force of the comments on this subject.

You claim that I made the “classic error” of attributing a modern mindset to the ancients in the time of Moses. I would ask you how are you confident that you understand this ancient mindset? I read the Bible and other ancient books and I see that people were capable of thinking back then just as they are today. I believe that the question that I asked (how could the calf have taken them out of Egypt) is a question that is valid then as it is today.

Your assessment of the distinction between the Baal and the golden calves of Jeroboam is the weakest part of your argument. You claim that worship of the Baal came along with the assassination of God’s prophets while worship of the golden calves did not. Exactly! Did you stop to think why this was so?

You also claim that worship of the golden calves was “confined” to the two locations in which the calves were situated. This is unbiblical. Indeed the calves were limited to these two locations but their worship was something that all of the Northern tribes participated in – 1Kings 1:12:30.

Finally, your most serious error relates to Deuteronomy 4:15. You claim that the verse does not prohibit representative worship but only prohibits making statues of created beings. But if you read the verse you will see that this prohibition to make statues of created beings is a prohibition against representative worship. God is saying that Israel saw no image at Sinai therefore they are to make no image. This is not talking to someone who has no interest in worshiping the God of Sinai. Why would such a person care if God did or did not show his ancestors an image at Sinai? This is talking to someone who wants to worship the God of Sinai but is being persuaded that this statue will somehow represent the God of Sinai and it is to such a person that God is addressing when he says – you saw no image.

In conclusion I will thank you again for bringing clarity to this subject. The idolatry of Christianity is not an “unintentional” sin. It is perhaps a sin of confusion but it is not unintentional. After all, Christians know that God prohibited the worship of a man and they knowingly worship a man. Not only that but they worship by the book attributed to the followers of this man rather than by the book of God. This is rebellion. Perhaps confused rebellion, but still rebellion.

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Thank You

Yisroel C. Blumenthal